马克·扎克伯格谈柔术、咖啡与 UFC

我有一些巡演日期要告诉你。5 月 10 日佛罗里达州迈阿密，6 月 19 日爱荷华州锡达拉皮兹，6 月 20 日明尼苏达州圣保罗，6 月 21 日北达科他州法戈，6 月 22 日南达科他州拉皮德城，以及加拿大的温尼伯和卡尔加里。所有门票都在 theon.com 上。请通过那些链接获取准确价格。感谢你们支持“老鼠巡演”的回归。今天的嘉宾是一位企业家、发明家、慈善家。他是世界上最富有的人之一，财富和权力的共识只存在于极少数人身上。他于 2004 年 19 岁时共同创立了 Facebook，这家公司后来变成了 Meta，也就是我们今天所在的他们的总部。我很感激能花时间认识马克·扎克伯格先生。我先找首歌。你喝咖啡吗，兄弟？

I have some tour dates to tell you about. Miami, Florida on May 10th. Cedar Rapids, Iowa on June 19th. St. Paul, Minnesota on June 20th. Fargo, North Dakota on June 21st. Rapid City, South Dakota on June 22nd. Winnipeg and Calgary in Canada. All tickets at theon.com. Please go through those links so you get accurate pricing. And I appreciate your support for the return of the rat tour. Today's guest is an entrepreneur, an inventor, a philanthropist. He is one of the richest men in the world, and a consensus of wealth and power exists in only so few people. He co-founded Facebook in 2004 when he was 19 years old, the company that turned into Meta, which is where we are today in their headquarters. I'm thankful to spend time and get to know Mr. Mark Zuckerberg. And I will find a song. You drink coffee, man, or no?

不喝。

No.

真的吗？

Really?

是的。我是说，你喝过吗？我喝过。有时候度假时，我会偶尔喝一下，就像庆祝一样。

Yeah. I mean, you've had it? I have. Sometimes on vacation, I'll drink it recreationally. It's like every once in a while. Just like a celebration.

真的？

Really?

是的。不，我只是讨厌任何扰乱我系统的东西。我不喜欢任何化学物质之类的。

Yeah. No, I just hate anything that messes with my system. I don't like any kind of chemicals or anything like that.

哦，真的吗？所以你希望一切都保持平衡？

Oh, really? So you like to keep everything in equilibrium?

是的。我姐姐为此总取笑我。她说：“你就那么干坐着，直面现实。”哇，这倒是真的。

Yeah. My sister gives me such a hard time about that. She's like, "You're just sitting there raw dogging reality." Wow. It's kind of true.

所以你以前喝过，但就是不喜欢？

So you've had it before, but you just don't like it?

是的。我不喜欢。

Yeah. I don't like it.

所以早上起床后，你不喝咖啡？有什么其他习惯吗？

So when you get up in the morning, that's not your thing? Is there something you do?

没有。我醒来就去跟人打架。

No. I wake up and I fight people.

哦，你是说醒来练柔术？

Oh, you mean you wake up and do jiu-jitsu?

是的。我大概 7 点或 7 点半醒来，孩子们开始在家里吵闹，睡眠就结束了。然后我看手机，看到人们做的各种事，比如“你干了什么？开什么玩笑？我得去处理。”于是我调整好自己，去练两个小时格斗，重新找回状态。然后我才能去处理那些事情。这很有帮助。就像你早上的咖啡一样，练柔术。

Yeah. I probably wake up around 7 or 7:30 whenever the kids start making noise around the house. Sleep is done. Then I look at my phone and see all these things people are doing, like "You did what? Are you kidding me? I have to go deal with this." So I compose myself and go fight for two hours, re-enter myself. Then I can go deal with the stuff. That helps. It's almost like your coffee in the morning, rolling jiu-jitsu.

你现在更多练打击技？

And right now you're doing more striking?

是的，非常有趣。我认为这是最棒的运动。它能刺激神经，是有氧运动，也能锻炼力量。还有一点威胁性，所以让你保持警觉。不像跑步那样。我以前在附近跑步，但跑步没那么刺激。柔术的一个酷点是你可以输给某人，他们降服你，但你会在这个过程中学到东西。很多时候降服你的人也想帮你学习。所以你可以同时输和赢。这就是它的精妙之处。

Yeah, it's really fun. I think it's the greatest sport. It's neurologically stimulating, good cardio, good strength. A little bit of a threat, so it keeps you on your toes. Not like just running. I used to run around the neighborhood, but running is not that thrilling. One cool thing about jiu-jitsu is you can lose a match with somebody, they can submit you, but you'll learn something along the way. A lot of times the guy submitting you also wants to help you learn. So you can lose and win at the same time. That's what's masterful about it.

你练吗？

Do you do it?

我没有像我想的那样经常练。

I don't do it as much as I would like to.

像那样练打击技？

Striking like that?

不，我从来没练过打击技，但我会在垫子上练柔术。和朋友一起练很有趣。有人把你勒得很紧，然后你就觉得“天哪，真是美好的一天。”这就像一杯咖啡。如果一个大块头把你挤到受不了，那就是一杯咖啡。对我来说比咖啡因更好。

No, I never got into striking, but I would just do jiu-jitsu on the mats. It's so fun to do with friends. And some guy chokes you so hard and then you're just like, "God, it's a good day." It's a cup of coffee. If a big fella is squeezing you until you can't handle it, that's a cup of coffee. Better than caffeine for me.

如果不喝咖啡因，你饮食中有什么维生素或主食吗？

Is there a vitamin or some staple you keep in your diet if not caffeine?

我喝大量蛋白质。肌酸。维生素 D，那些东西。

I drink a very large amount of protein. Creatine. Vitamin D, all that stuff.

但这不是你的爱好？

But it's not your thing?

不是。从来不是我的爱好。

No. Never been my thing.

我在哪里见过？哦，我们在 UFC 见过。你和你妻子都在，对吧？

Where did I see? Oh, we saw each other at the UFC. And you and your wife were there, right?

是的。是哪一场？我在想。不是 312。那是 Alex 对阵 Magomed。

Yeah. Which one was that? I'm trying to think. It wasn't 312. That was Alex fighting Magomed.

是啊，那场我很难过，兄弟。

Yeah, I was sad about that, man.

是啊。

Yeah.

你妻子，我看得出来她真的很投入，有时手托着头。

Your wife, I could see she was really into it, head in her hand sometimes.

是的。我想她会说她喜欢，但我觉得她主要是去支持我。她挺投入的。这很艰难。我们认识了不少拳手，当你看到认识的人被打倒或击倒时，那很难受。我和沃尔卡诺夫斯基一起训练过几次。我们在 298 现场看他跟伊利亚打。那真的很难受。

Yeah. I think she would say she enjoys it, but I think she mostly goes to support me. She's into it. It's tough. We've gotten to know a bunch of the fighters, and when you see someone you know get hit or go down, that's tough. I've gotten to train with Volkanovski a few times. We were there at 298 when he fought Ilia. That was really tough.

你和他一起出场了吗？

Did you get to walk out with him?

没有。他让我和他一起出场，我说：“好吧，这会是一次很酷的经历。”然后我就站在那儿看他们走。你看到那个表情包了吗？他递出所有衣服，我就坐在那儿毫无用处。那是个有趣的时刻。

No. He asked me to walk out with him and I was like, "All right, this will be a cool experience." Then I'm just standing there while they're walking. Did you see that meme where he's passing off all his clothes and I'm just sitting there useless? That was a fun moment.

那吓人吗？比如，我现在该做什么？

Was that scary? Like, what do I do now?

不，那是个有趣的时刻。但看着他被伊利亚击中，就在笼边，离我们三英尺远。他是个硬汉，所以那很难受。之后普里西拉说：“天哪，我不知道还能不能现场看沃尔卡诺夫斯基比赛了。”但我们请了朋友来，看他跟迪亚哥打很有趣。那是一场精彩的比赛。第二和第四回合有些艰难时刻。但他的意志力，兄弟。他事后描述的方式，你看到第四回合迪亚哥的手套擦过他眼皮的那一拳了吗？他失去了视力，只能靠头部移动试图存活。

No, it was a fun moment. But watching him get hit by Ilia, it was right cage shot, three feet from us. He's a tough guy, so that was tough. After that, Priscilla was like, "Oh man, I don't know if I can go watch Volkanovski in person again." But we had friends over, it was fun watching him fight Diego. It was a great fight. Tough moments in rounds two and four. But his heart, man. The way he described it after, did you see the shot in round four where Diego grazed his eyelid with his glove? He lost his vision and he was just trying to survive with head movement.

这就像看动物星球节目里动物求生一样，你心里想“哦，这下完了”，结果它却表现很好。

It's like watching an animal try to survive on one of those Animal Planet shows or something when you're cheering for the, you know, you're like, "Oh, it's not going to go well." But then he does good.

是啊。不，他是个了不起的人。他真的很酷，非常有才华，很有心。哦，是的。而且你能了解一些拳手。我觉得这是如今社交媒体很棒的一点，你能更了解拳手们，了解他们的一些日常生活。你可以参与到他们是谁中去。这样你就有了更多可以为之加油的人。

Yeah. No. Um, he's an amazing guy. Um, he's really cool. Very talented. A lot of heart. Oh, yeah. And you get to know some of the fighters. I think that's one thing that is great about social media these days, that you get to know the fighters a little bit more, some of their regular life. Like you can get involved in who they are. So that gives you so much more of a person to cheer for.

带老婆出去约会难不难？因为你是——我就直接说了。因为你是，我快速说这个词免得纠结——既然你是亿万富翁，带老婆约会难吗？比如，你是不是得达到某种标准？或者一个美好的约会之夜是什么样的？

Is it tough to take your wife since you're a, and I'm just going to go for it. Since you're a, I'm going to say the word really fast just so it's like, so we don't dwell on it, but since you're a billionaire, is it tough to take your wife on a date? Like, do you have to live up to a standard or what's like a nice date night? What is that like?

嗯，我不知道。不，我觉得她很随和。嗯，她是个“千万富翁”。是的，抱歉。我侄女会喜欢这个说法。嗯，不，我的意思是，对我来说主要就是生活很忙。任何时刻我都有无数事情可以做。我只是觉得每周抽出时间很重要。比如，周三晚上我们尽量安排约会之夜。嗯，每晚陪孩子玩、哄他们睡觉。就是这样。这是我日常的重要部分。我觉得这些都是重要的事。但不过，我们也会出去吃，偶尔就在家做饭或吃，也挺好。UFC 那些可能更多是我喜欢，不是她。但她很配合。

Um, I don't know. No, I think she's pretty chill. Um, she's a chillionaire. Yeah, sorry. My niece will like it. Yeah, there you go. Um, no, I mean, I think the main thing for me is like life is busy. There's a million things that I could be doing at any given point in time. I just think it's important to take time, you know, each week. Like, Wednesday night, we really try to have a date night. Um, try to hang out with the kids and put them to bed every night. It's like that. That's just an important part of my routine. I think that's important stuff to do. But no, I mean, we try to go out somewhere, but every once in a while we'll just cook or eat at home and that's all good. The UFC stuff I think is probably more for me than for her. But she's a good sport about it.

有没有为她做过什么，比如一次豪华约会，因为你能带老婆去大多数人梦寐以求的约会？有没有哪次你带她去了什么神奇的约会？

Is there something you'll do for her, like a fancy date, because you can afford to take your wife on a date that most people could only dream of? Is there some magical date that you took her on one time?

嗯，我不知道。这是个好问题。让我想想。她在这类事情上很简单。我觉得大部分——你知道，我喜欢做东西，对吧？所以，不知道你有没有看到这个。我喜欢和伟大的艺术家合作。所以我做了个项目，我一直很欣赏 Daniel Arsham，他是位了不起的雕塑家，我和他一起为 Priscilla 做了个雕塑，因为我觉得很酷。嗯，对，你正在调出图片。首先，我觉得给 Priscilla 做雕塑，一部分是因为酷，一部分是因为我不会给自己做雕塑。那太疯狂了，对吧？谁会干那种事？但所以，她在某种程度上成了我创意的目标。之后网上有很多梗，人们说：“哇，Zuckerberg 到底做错了什么，要给老婆做个雕塑？”我说：“不，你们完全搞错了。这才是我做错的事。你们得等着看我得做些什么来弥补做了个雕塑还放在前院。”而她根本不想要前院有她的雕塑。那很奇怪，对吧？但不过，她很配合。至少你可以跟 Door Dash 外卖员说：“就放在雕塑旁边。”是啊，还挺好的。它变成了一个——我觉得院子里有个女性雕像还挺不错的，你知道吗？是啊，它有种天使般的外形，感觉很好。

Um, I don't know. That is a good question. Let's see. She's pretty simple on this stuff. I think most of the, you know, I like doing, I like making things, right? So, I don't know if you saw this thing. I like working with great artists and stuff. So, I did this project where I've always admired Daniel Arsham and he's this great sculptor, and I worked with him to make this sculpture of Priscilla because I thought it was cool. And, um, yeah, you're pulling this up. First of all, I think it's like, make a sculpture of Priscilla partially because that's cool, partially because I'm not going to make a sculpture of myself. It's like that's crazy, right? It's like who the does that? But like, so it's like she's kind of the target of my creative energy in a way. So there's all these memes online after, where people like, "Wow, I wonder what Zuckerberg did wrong that he had to make a sculpture of his wife." And I'm like, "No, you guys are totally missing this. This is the thing I did wrong. It's like you're going to have to wait to see what I have to do to make up for having made a sculpture and putting it on our front lawn." And it's like she doesn't want a sculpture of her in the front lawn. It's like that's weird, right? But, um, no, but she's a good sport about it. And at least you can tell the Door Dash guy, "Just set it by the sculpture." Yeah. That's kind of nice. It becomes like a, and I think having like a woman as a lookout in your yard is kind of nice, you know? Yeah. No, it's got like a good angelic form factor thing. It's a good vibe.

她有没有让你做任何修改，还是说“好吧，我就接受它本来的样子”？

Did she make you make any adjustments to it or was she like, "Okay, I'll accept it as is."

嗯，不。我觉得她没那么高兴。嗯，因为再说一次，谁会想要前院有自己的雕塑？但，嗯，不过，你知道，我觉得她觉得这很贴心，也欣赏这份心意。嗯，我的意思是，我可以用我的创意做很多更有破坏性的事情。是啊，你付出了努力。是啊。所以，我还给她设计了一辆保时捷的迷你货车。就像我们把 Cayenne 加长变大。我这么做是因为，好吧，我喜欢车，但我不会给自己设计一辆超级跑车。那就给老婆设计一辆漂亮的迷你货车吧，对吧？是啊，就是好玩。所以，我想就是这类创意的事情，努力发挥创意，向她展示一些创意。

Um, no. I mean, I don't think she was that happy with it. Um, because again, I mean, like, who wants a sculpture of themselves in the front yard? But, um, but, you know, I think she thinks it's sweet and I think she appreciates that. Um, I mean, there's a lot of more destructive things I could be doing with my creative energy. Yeah. You made an effort, too. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, and so it's like I designed her this, um, this, uh, Porsche minivan thing. It's like we took like a Cayenne and extended it to be bigger. And it's like I do that because it's like, all right, I like cars, but I'm not going to design a super car for myself. Let's just design a sweet minivan for my wife, right? It's like, yeah, it was just fun. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, I guess creative stuff like that, trying to be creative and show her some creativity.

哦，那真好。就是这样。你看那个。你在哪里认识你妻子的？

Oh, that's nice. There you go. I mean, look at that. And where did you meet your wife at?

嗯，我在学校认识她的。当时我们在上大学，我刚搞了个恶作剧。嗯，我所有的朋友和每个人都确信我肯定会被开除。

Um, I met her in school. So, at we were in college and I had just done this prank. Um, and all my friends and everyone were convinced they were all convinced I was going to get thrown out of school.

你在哪个学校，Mark？

And where were you at in school at, Mark?

哈佛。

Harvard.

好的。

Okay.

所以，我当时大二，她大一。嗯，我朋友都确信我马上要被开除。我要去面对学校纪律委员会的类似审判。嗯，朋友们给我办了个告别派对，派对结束时在洗手间排队。嗯，我正好站在 Priscilla 旁边，我们聊了起来，你也没什么可失去的。那是你的最后一餐。我就说：“嘿，哥们，你知道——”我没说“哥们”，但嗯，那场景不太浪漫。我们在排队等洗手间。她很有趣，很可爱。然后我说：“好吧，嘿，你知道，如果我们想约会，最好快点，因为我可能两三天后就被开除了。”这搭讪语不错吧？是啊，这正好展示你在这个世界上多有潜力，对吧？你知道——

And so, so I was a sophomore, she was a freshman. Um, my friends were convinced I was about to get kicked out of school. I was like going in front of this like trial for the kind of like school discipline committee. Um, my friends threw a going away party for me and it was in the bathroom line at the end of the party. Um, where I was just like next to Priscilla and we were talking and you had nothing to lose. It was your last meal. I was just like, "Look man, it's you know, have—" I didn't say man, but it's um, like it was not very romantic situations. It's like we're waiting in line for the bathroom. She's just funny. She's cute. And it's like I was like, "All right, hey, you know, if we're going to go out, we better go do this quickly because I'm probably going to get kicked out of school in like two or three days." It's like that's a good pickup line, right? It's like, yeah, that's how you really show that you have potential in the world, right? It's, you know, it's—

嗯，这是个限时优惠。

Well, it's a limited time offer.

是啊。但这不太有抱负。就像：“嘿，这是真的。我人生一事无成，还马上要被开除，所以你最好快点跟我约会。”嗯，对吧。就像——

Yeah. But it's not like very aspirational. It's like, "Hey, that's true. I'm going nowhere in life and I'm about to get kicked out of school, so you're going to want to go out with me really quickly." Um, right. It's like—

是啊。我觉得换个角度看，这很像“帆架”，你知道。很像“帆架”。

Yeah. I guess another way to look at it is very sail rack in a way, you know. Very sail rack.

是啊。但不过，我认识的每个人都觉得这事完了。我父母开车过来。我们住在纽约。他们开车来帮我收拾宿舍，因为他们说：“完了，你回家吧。”是啊。嗯，但事情没那样。然后当然我做了 Facebook，几个月后我还是辍学了。

Yeah. So but, I mean, but everyone I knew thought that this whole thing was over. I mean my parents drove up. We lived in New York. They drove up to help me pack up my dorm room because they're like, "It's over. You're coming home." Yeah. Um, but it didn't. Then of course I made Facebook and a few months later I dropped out anyway.

所以是他们倒霉。但你当时有没有去学校的听证会？还是没去？

So jokes on them. But did you have to go to the trial at school or you didn't?

哦不，我去了。他们问的问题比我在国会听证会上遇到的还要糟糕。他们问：“难道你不知道一旦把这个恶作剧网站放上网，它就永远存在了吗？”我说：“不，实际上不是这样的，网站已经下线了。”他们说：“你真是个自作聪明的家伙。”我说：“嗯，这大概没错。”但自作聪明的人至少还有一半是聪明的。我接受这个评价，总比当个蠢货好。

Oh no, I did. And the questions they asked were even worse than the questions I get at congressional hearings. It was like, "Don't you know that once you put this terrible prank website online, it is there forever?" And it's like, "No, actually that's not how it works. The site's already down." They're like, "You're a smartass." And I'm like, "Yeah, that's probably true." But half of a smartass also is smart. I'll take that. It's better than being a dumbass.

嗯，你知道，就是那种聪明中带点混蛋。这行得通。是啊，我想我宁愿当个自作聪明的家伙。那个恶作剧网站是什么？不是 Facebook 吧？

Well, you know, it's like maybe smart and a little bit of an ass. And it works. Yeah, I'd rather be a smartass, I think. Do you know about what was a prank site? What was it? That wasn't Facebook, though.

不，不是，它叫 Face Mash。在整件事的传说中，还有一部电影讲这些。他们把它描绘成 Facebook 的前身，其实不是。我上大学的时候，就是喜欢做东西。不管是雕像、小货车、互联网还是眼镜，随便什么，我就是喜欢创造。

No, no, it was this thing called Face Mash. In the whole lore of the thing, there's this whole movie that got made about all this stuff. They made it seem like Face Mash was a predecessor to Facebook. It wasn't. When I was in college, I just liked making things. So, whether it's statues or minivans or internets or glasses, like whatever, I just like making stuff.

所以你很有创造力。

So you like being creative.

是的。那个网站非常刻薄。我基本上把每个人的学生证照片下载下来，做了一个网站，上面显示两张照片，你点击你认为更有吸引力的人。它把所有配对结果汇总，根据大家认为谁最有吸引力给全校排名。回想起来非常刻薄。跟 Facebook 没有任何关系，对吧？就是一个大学生在犯浑。但好吧，那不是我最好的举动。不过你得一步步来。我做的有些东西是有用且有趣的。那个网站是我一个周末搞出来的，不是我最得意的作品。

Yeah. So it was very mean-spirited. I basically downloaded everyone's ID photos from their ID cards and made this site where it showed two photos and you clicked on the person you thought was more attractive. It took all the matchups and ranked everyone in the school based on who everyone thought was the most attractive. Very mean-spirited in retrospect. Not connected to Facebook in any way, right? Just a college kid being a jerk. But it's like okay. That was not my best move. But you got to take baby steps. Some of the things I did were useful and fun. That one I put together in a weekend. Not my best work.

是啊，不是你最好的作品。我们大概都做过一些不太好的东西。

Yeah, not your best work. We've all had things we made that weren't the best probably.

你开什么车？

What kind of car do you drive?

现在开的是 Blackwing CT5。是凯迪拉克，很不错。我非常喜欢开手动挡的车。我喜欢那种感觉。这车很好。

Right now, Blackwing CT5. It's a Cadillac. It's nice. I really like driving manual transmission cars. I like that type of thing. It's a good one.

天哪，真不错。我觉得你的车马力应该跟你的直升机差不多。作为经验法则，这大概是富人的法则吧。

Oh god, that's nice. I feel like you want your car to have almost as much horsepower as your helicopter. I feel like as a rule of thumb, it's probably a rule of a very rich thumb.

确实。有一段时间，我的安保团队说服了我大概 10 年，让我应该让他们开车送我去各处，实际上我可能确实应该这样。但后来我实在受不了了，我需要自由，我需要自己开车。于是我开始学开直升机。然后我想，好吧，这太荒谬了。安保团队开车送我去直升机，我再开走。这毫无意义。所以我就买了辆车。

Definitely. So for a while, my security team convinced me for like 10 years that I should just let them drive me places, which realistically I probably should. But then eventually I was just like, I can't do this. I need the freedom. I need to be able to drive myself. So I started learning how to fly helicopters. And then I was like, all right, well, this is just ridiculous. So we have the security team driving me to my helicopter that I then go fly away. It's like that makes no sense. So I just got a car.

这有点像蝙蝠侠，有种蝙蝠侠的感觉，但我想确实如此，因为那样你就一个人了。你什么意思？你会带人一起坐车吗？

It's kind of Batman almost has a Batman vibe, but I guess it is true because then you're just by yourself out there. What do you mean? Or will you take somebody with you in the car?

哦不。车里还是直升机？直升机。对，我肯定有专业飞行员跟我一起飞。

Oh, no. In the car or the helicopter? Helicopter. Yeah, I definitely have a real professional pilot fly with me.

哦，那可真酷。不过直升机应该能很快把你送到某个地方吧？

Oh, that's wild though. But I guess a chopper would get you somewhere pretty quick, right?

是的，是个好工具，值得拥有。

Yeah, it's a good tool to have in the arsenal.

难以置信。这简直像个皇帝啊，老兄。你会有这种感觉吗？

Unreal. No, it's like a damn emperor, dude. Does that feel like that ever?

不会。我希望人们能按我的想法做事，那会很有趣。但与此同时，你也可以找点乐子。

No. I feel like I wish that people did what I wanted them to do. That would be fun. But in the meantime, you could have some fun.

哦，是啊。我会弄一架直升机。我还会挖一条地下隧道，哪怕它出口就在起点旁边。

Oh, yeah. I would have a chopper. I'd have an underground tunnel even though it came right back up next to where it started.

我确实有一条地下隧道。

I do have an underground tunnel.

真的吗？

Do you really?

是的，在考艾岛的那个牧场。网上有个梗说我在底下建了个地堡。其实更像是个地下储藏室。但没错，就是一条通往另一栋建筑的隧道。

Yeah, in this ranch in Kauai. There's this whole meme about how people are saying I built this bunker underground. It's more of an underground storage situation. But yeah, it's a tunnel that just goes to another building.

哦，哇。扎克有地堡了。地下有什么？就是更多水，对吧？

Oh, wow. Zucky got that bunky. What's under the ground? Just more water, right?

基本上就是你说的那样。就是一条通往另一栋建筑的隧道。

It's basically what you just said. It's sort of a tunnel that just goes to another building.

不过那是个藏点好东西的好地方。反正我会那么做。但咱俩在这方面不一样。

But it's a good place to hide a little bit of dope though. That's what I would do anyway. But you and I defer there.

是的。所以你不用毒品？我是说，三年级时的 DARE 项目对我真的很管用。有人说它适得其反，反而教人怎么吸毒。但对我来说它真的吓到我了。我不喜欢任何那些东西。有个朋友会过来说：“我打点滴来感觉好点。”我甚至不想让人伸胳膊给我看血管。不，老兄。

Yeah. So you don't use drugs? I mean, DARE really worked on me when I was in third grade. There's all this stuff about how it backfired and just taught people how to use drugs. For me it really scared me. I don't like any of that stuff. A friend will show up and be like, "I was getting an IV to feel better." It's like I don't even want people to extend their arm and show me their vein. Like no man.

是啊，没错，老兄。不，我就是在赤裸裸地面对现实，这是我的信仰。如今这其实有点疯狂。过去，一个非常清醒、滴酒不沾的人会被认为很书呆子气。但现在这几乎是最疯狂的事。就像，等等，你什么影响都不受？从日出到日落。你就是个动物。这种看法变了，真是有点疯狂。

Yeah, that's true, dude. No, I'm raw dogging reality as my god. There's kind of a that's kind of insane really these days. It used to be that somebody who was really straight edge and sober was a nerdy thing. But now that's almost the most insane thing you can do. It's like, wait, you're under the influence of nothing. From sun up to sun down. You're an animal. It's kind of crazy that the perspective of that has changed.

那条隧道有多大？你的隧道很大吗？是什么样的？

How big is that tunnel? Is your tunnel pretty big or what's it like?

隧道没那么大。有一天我在 Instagram 上发了个短视频，内容是 Priscilla 在嘲笑我和几个朋友在地下玩游戏。但一切都好。当然。不过这是个疯狂的话题。我没花太多时间。你知道互联网是什么样的。互联网总是把事情渲染得比实际更疯狂。

It's not that big of a tunnel. I put a reel on Instagram one day of Priscilla kind of making fun of me playing video games with some friends down there. But it's all good. Definitely. But this is a crazy area. I haven't spent a lot of time. You know how the internet is. The internet will always make things seem like they're crazier than they are.

但你知道，有一次在夏威夷，建一个地下风暴避难隧道挺蠢的。就是这样。不，我不这么认为。有人想知道，那是 Roblox 吗？谁给你建的？它更接近 Roblox 而不是那个东西。老兄，未来绝对会因汽车而变得奇怪。老兄，我看到四辆 Waymo 在宜家后面碰头。在开会，是吧？是啊。决定下一步做什么。就像“你下一步怎么走？”有点像“你去哪儿？你是谁？”是啊。我想你看过《热浴盆时光机》吗？我没看过。你会喜欢的。那不错。是啊。不，我觉得里面有一辆自动驾驶汽车在追捕对它刻薄的人。那很好。是啊，看起来就是这样。老兄，有四辆——我不知道它们是不是在抽大麻什么的——但四辆 Waymo 全在碰头。是啊，我不知道。它们在碰头。我就想，它们是谁？它们在干什么？你知道吗，然后我朋友说他坐过一辆，那车在对他哭，因为 Waymo 在哭。是啊，Waymo 就像在抱怨它的配偶什么的，我就想那是什么形式？我不知道。是说英语还是像 R2-D2？不，我觉得他设成了英国口音。所以它说：“哦，我太太真让我受不了。”不。所以我觉得你可以把声音改成印度口音或英国口音什么的，或者女性或半女性什么的。女性。但我觉得，有些 Waymo 的东西有点过分了。我从没想过“哦，这些车在干什么？”直到我看到四辆在碰头，我就想，这对我来说有点过了。你知道，未来开始变得有点可怕的就是这样的时刻。你会想，它们在干什么？它们在干什么？可能只是在等接人。但它们非得在宜家后面成群结队吗？是啊，我不知道，那地方看起来不像接人的地方。没错。好吧，我不打算为它们辩护。好吧。好吧。好吧。只是那看起来是个有趣的碰头地点，你知道。嗯，是啊。然后我坐过一次 Waymo，它问我“想赌一把吗？”，我觉得是 DraftKings 赞助的什么的，它说“想和我赌吗？”。我说“我赌 40 美元你到不了目的地。”然后它就像锁了车门。是啊。还加速。是啊。是啊。而且为什么所有 Waymo 都是白色的？我就想，我不知道。我觉得我们得开始多样化一下组合了。我觉得有点，你知道。是啊。但我知道什么？

But you know, once an under I mean in Hawaii it's like having a little storm shelter underground tunnel is pretty stupid. That's the thing right there. No, I don't think so. I someone's wondering. Is that Roblox? Who built it for you? It's closer to Roblox than what the thing is. Dude, the future's definitely getting weird with cars. Dude, I saw four Waymos meeting up behind the IKEA over here. Having a meeting, huh? Yeah. Deciding what they're going to do next. Just like what's your next move? Kind of was like where you going? Who you? Yeah. I think Have you seen Hot Tub Time Machine? I haven't seen it. You would like that. That's good. Yeah. No, I think that there's the self-driving car that's like hunting down the guy who was mean to it in it. It's good. Yeah, that's what it seemed like. Dude, there was four I don't know if they were smoking a blunt or whatever, but there was four Waymos all meeting. Yeah, I don't know. They were meeting up. I'm like, what who are they? What are they doing? You know, and then my buddy said he was in one and it was crying to him because the Waymo was crying. Yeah, the Waymo was like complaining about his spouse or whatever and it was like what form does that take? I don't know. Is it like speaking English or is it like R2-D2? No, I think he had set it on a British setting. So, it was like, "Oh, me Mrs. is really getting at me." No. So, I think you can change the voice to like Indian guy or British guy or whatever or like female or semi-female or whatever. Female. But like Yeah, I just think it like Yeah, just some of that Waymo stuff's just getting out of line. I never thought like, oh, what are these cars doing? Until I saw four of them meeting up and I was like, this seems like a lot to me. You know, that's where the future starts to get a little bit scary is moments like that. You're like, well, what are they doing? What were they doing? Probably just waiting to pick people up. But they have to do it in a group behind an IKEA. Yeah, I don't know what that does seem like an unlikely place to pick people up. That's true. And well, it just see I'm not going to defend them. Okay. Okay. Okay. It just seemed like an interesting place to meet up, you know. Um, yeah. And then I was in a Waymo and it was like you want to gamble and I think it was like sponsored by DraftKings or something and it was like you want to gamble with me Yeah. I was like it's like I bet you $40 you'll never get where you're going. And it was like this seems as the doors lock. Yeah. It's like picks up speed. Yeah. Yeah. And why are all the Waymos white too? I'm like, this is I don't know. I just think we got to start to diversify the portfolio. I feel like a little, you know. Yeah. But what do I know?

嗯，你——让我换个话题。抱歉。我有时会有点紧张。可以吗？好。好吧。我是说，你不可能比我更不紧张。让我想想你刚说的。好。我也想想。我说的是“更紧张”吗？更紧张。是啊。看，我都没说对。真的吗？哦，但我觉得这是个陷阱。我觉得我比你更紧张。你觉得？是啊，老兄。我醒来。我就是个闹钟。我一直有这种感觉。我觉得那是什么意思？我就是觉得我一直，你知道，你知道，我不知道。我只是觉得我一直那样。我一直觉得有点狂躁，你知道吗？就像我更多在想怎么让事情平静下来，而不是怎么让事情亢奋起来，你知道吗？我现在白天经常戴耳塞，这让事情更容易应对。有意思。是啊。它让一切更容易集中注意力。如果我做桑拿、蒸汽浴、冰浴、锻炼，任何那些事，它都让一切更容易。你戴耳机——我会戴耳塞。好。哦，我明白了。好。我整晚都戴着，这让一切容易得多。

Um, you so, let me switch topics. Sorry. Sometimes I get a little bit nervous. Is that all right? Yeah. Okay. I mean, there's no way that you're less nervous than me. Let me think about how you said that. Yeah. Let me think about that, too. Did I More nervous? More nervous. Yeah. See, I didn't even say it correctly. Really? Oh, but I think that's a trap. I think that I am I think I'm more nervous than you. You think? Yeah, man. I wake up. I am an alarm clock. That's how I feel all the time. I feel like What does that mean? I just feel like I'm always, you know, you know, I don't know. I just think I've always felt like that. I've always felt like kind of frenetic, you know? It's like how do I get things to calm down more than how do I get things to amp up, you know? I'll even wear earplugs a lot of the day now and it makes things a lot easier for me to kind of navigate. Interesting. Yeah. It just makes everything easier to focus on. It makes it easier if I'm doing sauna, steam bath, ice bath, working out, any of those things. It makes it everything. You wear earbuds in the I'll wear earplugs. Okay. Oh, I see. Okay. And I wear them all night while it just makes everything a lot easier.

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嗯，你大学辍学了，对吧？是啊。嗯，Alexander Wang 有一次来过。他——我们之前聊过他，但他也大学辍学了。你觉得人们还需要大学吗？因为，你知道，有些有创意的人成功了，他们没上过大学。你觉得人们还需要大学吗？你觉得现在和未来是什么样子？

Um you you dropped out of college, right? Yeah. And um Alexander Wang, he came on one time. He and and we were talking about him earlier, but he had dropped out of college also. Is that a Do you think people need college still or cuz it's just, you know, that you have these creative guys who were having success and they didn't go through college. Do you feel like people still need college? What do you feel like that looks like for now in the future?

我不知道。嗯，我是说，大学，问题在于有多少是关于学习，有多少是关于在进入世界之前学会如何做一个成年人。嗯，我是说，对我来说，课程还行。

I don't know. Well, I mean, college, there's a question of how much of it is about the learning and how much of it is about the kind of like learning how to be a grown-up before you kind of go out into the world. Um, I mean, for me, it's like the the classes were fine.

我觉得那是大学里有趣又好玩的一部分，但我遇到了很多对我人生非常重要的人。普莉希拉、公司的联合创始人，还有一群至今仍是密友的朋友。所以我觉得这比上什么课都重要。那只是社交学习：和他人相处，学会不在父母身边生活。我上大学前上了两年寄宿学校，所以即使我辍学了，某种程度上也获得了完整的体验。挺好的。我觉得在完全独立之前，你需要一点离开家的时间。所以我认为这会是常态。但我确实觉得很多人——我不确定大学是否在为人们今天需要的工作做准备。我认为这是个很大的问题，所有学生债务问题都非常严重。大学对很多人来说太贵了，毕业时负债累累，还不一定能找到工作。你付了那么多钱，按理说应该保证某种初级就业。我认为这可能是最大的问题：如果只是社交体验，你从零开始还好，但如果它不能为你所需的工作做准备，而且你一开始就背个大坑，那就不妙了。我觉得必须有个清算，人们得想清楚这到底合不合理。以前说“也许不是每个人都需要上大学”是禁忌，因为很多工作不需要大学学历。但我认为现在人们比十年前更接受这个观点了。

I mean, that was a fun, entertaining part of college, but I met a lot of people who were really important in my life. Priscilla, my co-founders at the company, a bunch of people who are still close friends to this day. So I think that's almost more of it than whatever class you took. That's just social learning: being around others, learning to not be at your parents' house. I went to boarding school for two years before college for two years. So even though I dropped out of college, I kind of got a full experience in a way. It was good. I feel like you need some time away from home before you fully go out. So I think that'll be a thing. But I do think a lot of people—I'm not sure that college is preparing people for the jobs they need today. I think that's a big issue, and all the student debt issues are really big. The fact that college is so expensive for many people, and then you graduate in debt, and you're not even guaranteed a job. You'd think at a certain rate you're paying, you'd be guaranteed some sort of beginner employment. I think that's probably the biggest issue: if it were just a social experience, you'd start off neutral, but if it's not preparing you for the jobs you need and you're starting off in a big hole, that's not good. I think there's going to have to be a reckoning, and people will have to figure out whether that makes sense. It's been taboo to say maybe not everyone needs to go to college, because there are a lot of jobs that don't require it. But I think people are coming around to that opinion more now than maybe 10 years ago.

你觉得——我刚才和你的一个助理——一个同事，抱歉——科林聊过，我们就在说，你觉得现在孩子应该学什么课程？因为随着 AI 的出现，技术开始快速自我倍增，我们的进步能力似乎只会越来越快。你同意这个总体说法吗？哦，完全同意。我觉得是在加速。对，加速。就是这个词。那么，既然这样，我觉得现在就应该教小学生和初中生如何使用 AI。这听起来很真实吧？你觉得不是教编程什么的，而只是教怎么用？

Do you think—I was just talking earlier with Colin, one of your assistants—one of your co-workers, sorry—and we were saying that, yeah, what classes do you think kids should be learning now? Because with AI coming along and technology starting to multiply itself pretty quickly, our ability to advance is going to grow faster. Would you feel that's true? Overall statement. Oh yeah, totally. I think it's accelerating. Yeah, accelerating. That's the word I'm looking for. So with that happening, what are—I feel like they should be teaching how to use AI to children right now in elementary and middle schools. Does that sound very real to me? Do you feel like that's not how to code or anything, but just how to do it?

这很有趣，因为技术变化很大。显然现在和 20 年前我创办公司或小时候开始编程时大不相同。所以我 15 岁时学到的具体编程技能并不是我今天在用的。但我认为理解技术、学会如何使用它、并登上这趟列车是有价值的。另一件事是，不管上什么课，有好导师或好老师都很重要。我在寄宿学校时非常喜欢学拉丁语和希腊语，虽然对实际工作没什么用，但很有趣。我们要参加的考试——你会读一些伟大的作品，然后考试时他们会从书的三分之一部分里随便挑一个词，给你一个句子，然后说：“这个词，请给出作者在这部作品中用这个词的完整语法和诗意含义。”我不太擅长语言，所以我学那门课的方法就是坐下来，逐字学习每个词在几十页中的历史含义，准备这些考试。现在我不记得多少了，但有些书里有一些我觉得很好的引语，我把它们印在了 T 恤上。你听过“pluron”吗？对，那是个好词。它是什么意思？“让我们融合”之类的，来自“many one”？我觉得它是在说我们如何作为一个民族或各州联合成一个整体。哦，那很好。但从中得到的教训是，它给了我信心：好吧，那是一件疯狂的事——要去学习每个词的含义、诗意含义、语法结构等等。上完那门课后，我基本上觉得只要我足够努力，就能做任何我想做的事，因为我刚刚学会了所有这些无关紧要的词来搞定这件事，我赢了，做到了，而且过程中还挺开心。

It's interesting because the technology changes a lot. It's obviously a lot different now than it was 20 years ago when I got started with the company or when I started coding as a kid. So it's not like the specific things I learned to code when I was 15 are the skills I'm using today. But I think there is something about understanding the technology and understanding how to use it and getting on that train that is valuable. The other thing is I just think having good mentors or teachers no matter what the actual classes. When I was in boarding school, I really liked studying Latin and Greek, and that's not useful for any practical thing, but it's fun. The tests we had to take—you'd be reading these great works, and the test would be they'd pull out any word in whatever third of a book was that section of the class, and they'd show you a sentence and say, 'Okay, this word: give us the full grammatical and poetic significance of how this word is used by this author in this piece.' I'm not that good at language, so the way I did that class was I basically sat and studied word by word the historical significance of each word over tens of pages, preparing for these exams. I don't remember that much of it now, but there were a few quotes I think are pretty good from some of those books, and I put them on shirts. Have you heard 'pluron'? Yeah, no, that's a good one. What does that mean? 'Let's blow' or whatever from 'many one'? I think it's talking about how we come together as a people or as states into one union. Oh, that's nice. But the lesson from that is it gave me this confidence that, okay, that was a crazy thing to do—to have to go learn what every word's significance, poetic significance, grammatical structure, and all that is. After I took that class, I was basically like I can work hard enough to do anything I want, because I just learned all these words that don't matter in order to nail this thing, and I won and did that and had some fun doing it.

对。就像你找到了一个行之有效的模式，而且很难。那是个艰难的模式。

Right. It's like you found a model that worked and it was hard. It was a tough model.

对。所以有那个例子，也有数学方面的例子。你刚才提到亚历山大·王。我参加过很多和他一样的数学竞赛。我高中时有一位超级硬核的数学老师，名叫冯祖明。他是中国人。我记得他曾经和——冯祖明。把他请来冯祖明。现在我们想要冯。你听过那首歌吗？他们以前常放。这家伙就是个狠角色，他长期参与训练美国数学奥林匹克队，对我成长影响巨大，他教会了我一些处理问题的方法。

Yeah. So there's that and there's the math version of that. You're talking about Alexander Wang on here. I did a bunch of the same kind of math competitions that he did. I had this super hardcore math instructor in high school. His name was Zuming Feng. And he's Chinese guy. And I think at some point he had worked with—Zuming Feng. Bring him Zuming Feng. Now we want the Feng. You ever hear that song? They used to play that. Well, this guy's just a badass, and he basically was involved in training the US Math Olympiad team for a long period of time, and he made a huge impact on me growing up, and he kind of taught me a little bit about how I approached problems.

他说：“你看，你其实有点这个本事。你数学并不好。”我说：“不不。”不过我是开玩笑的。他教会了我，我有一种直觉能力，能感知正确答案大概在什么范围。所以他说：“我看你的作业，你做了很多没什么道理的事，但最后你得出了一个结论，然后你意识到那个结论不对，你就检查自己，回头重做。你一直这样做直到得到正确答案。我不明白你怎么会有这种对正确答案形状的直觉，但这真的很棒。只要你能把这种直觉和非常努力结合起来，你就能成功，做成很多事。”所以这给了我一张地图，指导我如何用直觉配合努力。那么，具体的高维几何或者我们当时一起研究的东西，我今天还会用到吗？不会。那些东西我全不记得了。但我觉得，你有好老师教你如何思考、如何努力，这些会永远留在你身上。我认为这能建立自信。它教你如何解决问题。然后你在某些事情上变得越来越好，你建立了自信。这就是大学的价值。那些是你在纸面上可能看不到的其他价值，但那就是它的价值所在。

He's like, 'Look, you actually kind of have this. You're not that good at math.' I'm like, 'No, no.' But I'm kidding. He kind of taught me that I had this intuitive ability to have a sense of what zone the right answer was in. So he's like, 'I look at your work and you do a bunch of stuff that doesn't really make sense, but then at the end you come to a conclusion and you realize that that conclusion doesn't make sense and then you kind of check yourself and go back and do it. You keep on doing it until you get the right answer. I don't understand how you have this intuitive sense for what the shape of the right answer is, but that's really good. As long as you couple that with working really hard, you're going to be able to succeed and get a lot done.' So that gave me a map of how to navigate your intuition with your hard work. So, does the specific high-dimensional geometry or whatever we were working on together, do I do any of that today? No. I don't remember any of that stuff. But I think you have some good teachers who teach you how to think and how to work hard, and that stays with you forever. I think that builds confidence. It teaches you how you approach problems. Then you just get better and better at some things and you build confidence. So that's the value of college. Those are some of the other values you might not see on paper, but the value of that.

说得对，老兄。是啊，我记得直到今天，我生命中最喜欢的一些人还是那些挑战过我、相信过我、或者说过“我欣赏你这样做”的老师，这真的很鼓励你，种下了很多种子，让你更想做那些事。而且他们不一定是老师，虽然显然那来自导师。我觉得现在很多人可能都是从老师那里获得指导，除非他们参加体育运动。

That's a good point, man. It's like, yeah, I remember some of my favorite people still to this day have been some of my teachers that challenged me or believed in me or said, 'Man, I admire the way you do this or this,' and it really encourages you and plants a lot of seeds to make you want to do those things so much more. And they don't have to be teachers, although obviously that's from mentors. I think a lot of these days a lot of people get their mentorship probably from teachers unless they play a sport.

是的。我觉得学习的主要方式还是来自同事，对吧？就是和你一起工作的人。我记得小时候，我非常喜欢电脑。当你拥有第一台电脑时，你会想？我家大概在我八九岁时有了一台电脑，然后我想我可能自己也得到了一台，整天都在上面敲键盘。我爸爸是牙医，他说：“我昨天刚拔了一颗牙。”是吗？怎么样？搞定了。我刚拔了半颗……去看扎克伯格医生了？真的吗？他会照顾你的。你父母给你的是爱还是声波护理？这只是个老牙医笑话。很高兴你处理好了。是的，我感觉好多了。我们刚才在说什么？哦，我在说我爸爸是那种非常热爱科技的牙医。每当有新的激光设备能更好地钻牙时，他总是第一个用。这挺酷的，能看出他显然热爱科技。我想我通过这个接触到了很多东西。在他的牙科诊所里，有好几个不同的治疗室，每个都有电脑，我就想：“好吧，未来就在那里。”但那时他还是要来回走动去和不同的人说话。我说：“你需要一个聊天应用，这样你就可以给整个诊所的人发消息了。”所以我给他写了一个，然后我想：“好吧，这挺酷的。”

Yeah. I mean, I think the main way that you learn though is from colleagues, right? It's like people you work with. I remember growing up, I was really into computers. When you get your first computer, you think? So my family had a computer probably when I was like eight or nine, and then I think I probably got one and would be on that thing all the time just riding the keys. So my dad's a dentist, and he's like, 'I just got a tooth yesterday.' Yeah. How's that? There you go. I just got a half of a... Got to see Dr. Zuckerberg. Really? He'll take care of you. Did your parents give you love or just sonic care? That's just an old dentist joke. Glad you got that taken care of. Yeah, I feel a lot better about it. But what were we talking about? Oh, I was just talking about how my dad was the type of dentist who was really into technology. So whenever a new laser thing came out to drill your teeth better, he was on that first. And that was kind of cool to be around, and kind of see that he clearly loved technology. I think I got introduced to a bunch of stuff through that. So in his dental office, there were a bunch of different operatory rooms, and they each had computers, and I was like, 'All right, you know, oh yeah, the future in there.' But it was still, he'd still go between them to talk to the different people. I was like, 'You need a chat app so you can just send messages to everyone across the dental office.' So I wrote that for him, and I was like, 'All right, that's cool.'

所以你在编程。你把编程用到了牙科工作中。你已经在思考如何连接事物、创造东西了。

So you were coding. You were putting coding in dental work. You were already thinking of how to connect things, making stuff.

是的。这对我来说一直是个主题：计算技术与人以及连接人之间的交集。我上大学时，待的时间不长，但我名义上是心理学专业。我也上了很多计算机科学和数学课。但是，老兄，如果有人哪怕只在哈佛待了 4 天，我也会雇他当我的心理医生之类的。不，我不会真的这么做。我是说，我不知道。我觉得我宁愿要一个在自己领域做得好的人，而不仅仅是有一个随便的文凭。所以，是的。但在我老家，如果你听说哈佛，就像有人去了火星一样。非常……是的。我明白。

Yeah. That's sort of been the theme for me: the intersection between computing technology on the one hand and people and connecting people. When I was in college, I wasn't there for long, but I was technically a psychology major. I took a bunch of computer science and math classes too. But, dude, if somebody even went to Harvard for 4 days, I would hire him to be my therapist or whatever. Yeah, I wouldn't really. I mean, I don't know. I think I'd rather have someone who did well at whatever they did, not just who has some random credential. So, yeah. But where I'm from, if you heard Harvard, it was like somebody had gone to Mars or something. It was very... Yeah. No, I get it.

那么，当你从大学退学的时候，你得告诉你的父母吗？那是疯狂的一天吗？你给他们发私信了还是怎么做的？

So, whenever you dropped out of college, did you have to tell your parents? Was that a crazy day? Did you DM them or what did you do?

我已经创办了 Facebook，哈佛有一个很好的政策，你不需要做出退学的艰难决定。你可以只是延期。所以我只是下学期没回去。后来，我妈妈告诉我，她一直知道我不会读完大学。我说：“妈，这到底是什么意思？”但，实际上……

I'd already started Facebook, and Harvard had this nice policy where you didn't have to make a hard decision to drop out. You could just postpone. So I just didn't go back for the next term. Later, my mom told me that she always knew I wasn't going to finish college. I was like, 'Mom, what the hell does that mean?' But no, actually...

但那一定是最糟糕的。想象一下。假设你的儿子或孩子或女儿或混血儿或随便什么。假设学校有一次大考，对吧？你得拥抱你的孩子告别。你知道你的孩子考不好，对吧？但你仍然得站在厨房里，给他一点巧克力牛奶，说：“你今天会考好的，本尼或者随便什么名字。”但等他刚离开，你就想：“那孩子没……就像，你知道，本尼完蛋了。”本尼完蛋了。是的。不，我不知道。我不知道那是什么感觉。不，但我妹妹……我们的对话还好吗？我觉得挺酷的。你。

But that's got to be the worst. Imagine this. Say your son or child or daughter or mixed RA or mixed child or whatever. Imagine it's a big test at school, right? You have to hug your kid goodbye. You know your kid is not going to do good on that test, right? But you still have to stand there in the kitchen and give him a little bit of chocolate milk and be like, 'You're gonna do good out there today, Benny or whatever his name is.' But then the second he leaves, you're just like, 'That kid doesn't have a... It's like, you know, Benny's screwed.' Benny's screwed. Yeah. No, I don't know. I don't know what it's like. No, but my younger sister... Is our conversation going okay? I feel like it's cool. You.

是的。不，这……是的。我是说，这比我想象的要没那么随意，你知道吗？确实。我只是开玩笑。是的。我觉得有时候和人交谈很难。不，在我上大学之前，我妈妈，我想，告诉我她认为我会退学。我妹妹跟我打赌，她会比我先读完大学。

Yeah. No, this is... Yeah. I mean, it's less random than I expected to be, you know? It is. I'm just kidding. Yeah. I think it's just hard to talk sometimes to people. No, before I went to college, my mom, I think, told me that she thought I was going to drop out. My younger sister bet me that she was going to finish college before me.

哦，我喜欢这种态度。

Oo, I like that attitude.

我当时说：“不，我要拿学位。”结果全都实现了。我辍学了。我妹妹读完了大学，然后我拿到了荣誉学位，算是额外奖励。哦，他们给了你这个。我知道。是啊。哦，天哪。你连 GED 都没拿到吗？

And I was like, "No, I'm going to get a degree." And they all came true. I dropped out. My younger sister finished college, and then I got an honorary degree, so you know, bonus. Oh, you got a They gave you that. I know. Yeah. Oh, dang. Did you even get your GED at all either?

呃，没有。我确实读完了高中。

Uh, no. I did finish I did finish high school.

你读完了？GED 就是高中，对吧？我不确定。我觉得他们现在搞了个 GED 首映。我不知道。有人知道吗？不。不。GED 是高中同等学力。高中。好的。谢谢。嗯，我拿到了真正的高中文凭。

You did? GD is high school, right? Is that I don't know. I think they make a GD premiere now. I don't know. I don't know. Anyone? No. No. GG's high school equivalent. High school. All right. Thank you. Um I got a real I got a I got a high school diploma.

你拿到了高中文凭？那就是我的学历，老兄。我们国家 94% 的人都是这样。所以你没问题，兄弟。你和一些伟人一样。

You got a high school diploma? That's my That's my education, dude. That's 94% of our country. So, you're in good hands, brother. You're right there with some of the greats.

嗯，那么，当你刚开始的时候，让我想想。哦，你第一次带普莉希拉去约会的地方是哪里？你还记得吗？

Um so, when you started when you first started, let me think if I want to think. Oh, where was your first date that you took uh Priscilla to? Do you remember?

是的，和普莉希拉那次，嗯，我们去了一个叫 Berdicks 的地方。是 Berdick。Berdex。La Berdicks。那是个巧克力店，热巧克力。嗯，挺不错的。

Yeah, for Priscilla that was uh we went to this place, Berdicks. It was um Berdick. Berdex. La Berdicks. This uh like chocolate place, hot chocolate. Um that was that was pretty good.

嗯，你们是直接进去坐下，还是像餐厅一样，或者只是个买的地方？

Um and was it just like you went and sat down or you is it like a restaurant or just a place to get?

是的，像个小咖啡店。那种热巧克力式的咖啡店。嗯，对。不，挺好的。他们做的巧克力很好吃。他们做那种小老鼠形状的东西。哦，对。巧克力老鼠。所以现在每年纪念日，我们都会买一些老鼠。

Yeah, it's like a little coffee place. Little like hot chocolate type coffee place. It's um Yeah. No, it's nice. They they they make good chocolates. They make these little mice things. Oh yeah. Yeah. Chocolate mice. So now every year on our anniversary, we get some mice.

哦，不错。好买卖。哦，是啊。没什么比两位科技大佬享用几只老鼠更棒的了。你懂我意思吗？我觉得这很正常。对我来说很正常，老兄。嗯，抱歉，这让我笑疯了。对不起，马克。这让我笑疯了。想想就觉得疯狂。好吧，巧克力老鼠。是的，巧克力老鼠。对。我们会把这个记在笔记里。

Oh yeah. Good deal. Oh yeah. Nothing like a couple of tech emperors are enjoying a couple of mice. You feel me? I think that's very normal. That's very normal to me, dude. Um sorry that just made me laugh, dude. I'm sorry, Mark. That just made me freaking laugh. It's just crazy to think. Well, chocolate mice. Yes, chocolate mice. Yeah. And that Yeah. And we'll put that in the notes in the notes.

嗯，对。不，不是这样。我觉得当你像罗马帝国那样全盛时，就会说“给我活老鼠。给我活老鼠。”然后一只老鼠出现，腿有点瘸。你会说“全部都要活的”。老兄，如果有人看到一只瘸腿老鼠，根本没人会在意。这是老鼠最悲哀的地方。但实际上，我以前卖过仓鼠。我小时候的第一份工作就是卖仓鼠。嗯，那个市场里，他们引进了俄罗斯仓鼠，对吧？抢走了很多美国市场。俄罗斯的那种叫罗巴罗夫斯基。弄几只罗巴罗夫斯基来，伙计。它们抢走了那种毛茸茸的美国仓鼠的市场，我是说它们挺可爱的。确实可爱，但我们拿到的很多都来自俄罗斯。来自俄罗斯。俄罗斯的罗巴罗夫斯基仓鼠。是那种小白鼠，眼睛有点红。是的，我觉得它们眼睛上加了点视觉效果。就是这样。这些真的让人感觉不太好。对，那就像吸血鬼。有点过了。对有些孩子来说太过了。

Um Yeah. No, it's not I I feel like when you go like full Roman Empire, it's like give me give me the live mice. Give me the live mice. And then one mouse shows up and he has like a bad leg. You're like all of them fully alive. Dude, if somebody sees a mouse with a bad leg, nobody even cares. That's the saddest thing about some mice. But actually, I used to sell hamsters. My first job was selling hamsters growing up. And um a lot of that market, they brought in these Russian hamsters, right? And it took away a lot of the American market. And the Russian ones, they're called like the Robaravskis. Bring up a couple of Robarovskies, man. They were uh they they they took away like the fluffy kind of American hemp and they I mean they're pretty cute. They are cute, but the ones that we were getting a lot of them were from Russia. Put from Russia. Put uh Robarovski hamsters from Russia. Uh were the small white ones with kind of the red eyes. Yeah, they they really I think they um they put some visual effects on some of their eyes. There you go. These were really not helping people feel good. Yeah. No, that's like that's like a vampire. It was a little bit much. It was a lot for some of the children.

呃，你知道，我有个女儿特别喜欢刺猬。所以我们发现，嗯，我们带她们去了日本，那里有个刺猬咖啡馆，你可以进去和刺猬玩。我从没见过刺猬。对。不，它们挺可爱的。有点像那个，但眼睛不那么红。但嗯，对。不，贝。是的，她就在那儿。那些很漂亮。不，那种可以跟动物一起玩的咖啡馆的想法。嗯，普莉希拉告诉我她带孩子们去了一个猫咖啡馆，我女儿想跟猫玩，但找不到喜欢的猫，最后终于找到一只喜欢的，刚坐下来准备跟猫玩，就有人进来说这只猫被领养了，然后带走了。哦，就像那个被驱逐到萨尔瓦多的人的事情。听起来很像，我不知道是不是类似，但听起来有很多完全不同的地方。绝对不同。完全不是一回事。你说得对。嗯，对，你说得对。这不是同一个故事。我不知道这两个故事结局如何，但太伤心了。至少猫有了家。对，猫有了家。而我觉得那个人也会回家。我不太了解，只是突然想到这个。可能有点像。

Uh you know, so one of my daughters is really into hedgehogs. So we we found um we're in like we took them to Japan and there's this hedgehog cafe that you can just go in and they can just like play with the hedgehog. I've never seen a hedgehog. Yeah. No, it's it's uh they're pretty cute. It's kind of looks like that but less red eyes. But um Yeah. No, Bay. Yeah, she's out there. Those are beautiful. No, those the the idea of cafes where you can hang out with animals. Mhm. Um, and Priscilla was telling me that she took the kids to this cat cafe and like it's like my daughter was like hanging out with the cats and it was like couldn't find a cat that she liked and then like finally found a cat that she was into and then like find just as she was sitting down like hang out with the cat. Someone came in and was like up this cat has been adopted and took oh just like that issue that's going on with that guy they deported to El Salvador right now. That sounds like very I don't know if it's similar to that, but it sounds like there's like a lot that seems completely different. Absolutely. A completely different thing. You're right. That's um Yeah, you're right. It's not the same fairy tale. I don't know how the either one of those fairy tale ends, but that's so sad. The cat at least got a home. Yeah, the cat got a home. And this I think that guy will get home. I don't know a lot about it. It just like spawned me on that. That could be something like that.

嗯，你有几个女儿？三个女儿。你还有三个姐妹。是的。所以你周围都是女孩。天哪。是啊。那你晚上跟女儿们睡前是什么样的？在扎克伯格家是什么样的？

Um do you you have how many do you have a three daughters? Three daughters. And you had three sisters. I did. Yeah. So you're kind of surrounded by girls. God. Yeah. And did you what's it like like bedtime with your daughters at night? Like what is that like at at the Zuckerberg's home?

嗯，是的。我的意思是，因为白天太忙了，我尽量确保晚上陪孩子的时间。我每晚花半小时陪每个孩子。她们年龄不同，有 9 岁、7 岁和 2 岁的。哦，哇。真有趣。嗯，是的。睡前时间，不，孩子们各有各的疯狂，我们只是尽量跟她们聊她们想聊的。嗯，比如她们喜欢什么？不，2 岁的那个刚开始学说话，她可能会编程，那太疯狂了。对。不，好吧，她就像……现在 2 岁的那个很有主见，我觉得会很有趣。真的吗？嗯，是的。嗯，是的。但让我想想，她……我不知道。让我想一件她做的有趣的事。在我思考的时候，7 岁的那个纯粹是生成式的，不停地创造东西。嗯，你知道，她就是那种会说“我们来 3D 打印吧”的人。她会在我们正在构建的 Horizon 元宇宙系统里创建 3D 世界。嗯，她编程、写书、嗯，基本上还做音乐。嗯，她才 7 岁。7 岁。是的。看到她真的让我更了解自己，因为就像，为什么我一直在建造东西？为什么我这么在乎创造？我不知道。我觉得有些人内心就是有那种东西，他们必须创造，东西就像从他们身上流出来。他们不断生成、产出东西，你可以在她身上看到这一点。她就是那样。是的。是的。我觉得……在她开始长大并做那些事之前，普莉希拉总是说“你为什么不能放松一下？”对吧？你已经建了足够多的东西了，对吧？你的公司很好。你可以放松了。

Um yeah. I mean it's just it's like so because I'm so busy during the day. I try to make it so that like the time that I know I'm going to hang out with the kids at night. I try to spend like half an hour with each of them at night. And and they're different ages. So we got like a nine, a seven-year-old, a 2-year-old. Oh wow. That's fun. Um yeah. So bedtime I don't No, I mean the kids are all crazy in different ways and and we just kind of like try to connect with them on on whatever they want. Um like what do they like to if it's not No, the 2-year-old is just like starting to learn how to speak and she probably code which would have been crazy. Yeah. No. Well, well, she's like Yeah. Now the 2-year-old has very strong opinions and I think it's going to be very interesting. Really? Um Yeah. Um Yeah. But it's like, let let me let me think about what I mean, she's um I don't know. I need to let me think about something funny that she's doing. But while um while I'm thinking about that, the uh the seven-year-old is just like purely generative, constantly just creating things. Um you know, she's the one who's like, "We'll do like 3D printing. She'll create like 3D worlds in this like Horizon metaverse system that we're building. Um, she codes, she writes books, she um, she basically like makes music. Um, she is she's seven years old. She's seven. Yeah. Seeing her has really like I think helped me understand myself in a way because it's like it's kind of like okay like why do I just keep like building stuff? Like why do I care so much about creating stuff? And it's like I don't know. I think some people just like have a thing in them where it's like they have to create stuff like the stuff just like comes out of them. They're constantly generating things and like and and kind of producing stuff and and you notice that in her. She's like that. Yeah. Yeah. I think Yeah. I mean I think before before kind of she started growing up and doing that Priscilla was just like why don't you just like relax, right? It's like you've done you've built enough things, right? It's like your company is good. Like you can just chill.

现在我觉得她看到这个之后，就说：‘好吧，不，我懂了。你也有同样的东西。你和她有一样的东西，对吧？就像你一直在创造东西。’她说：‘哥们，没错，你就是托马斯·爱迪生。’就是这样。挺不错的。我喜欢这个。

And now I think after seeing this one, she's just like, 'Okay, no, I get it. You have the same thing. You have what she has, right? It's like you're just constantly creating stuff.' She's like, 'Dude, yeah, you're Thomas Edison.' There you go. Pretty good. I like that.

是啊。不，这……嗯，谢谢，哥们。

Yeah. No, it's uh Yeah. Thank you, dude.

时不时地，我们的大女儿就会……老大九岁了，对吧？是的，她九岁了。所以她已经有点大了。她开始进入竞争阶段了。她在参加历史竞赛和数学竞赛，而且真的很想了解世界。所以我和她的活动通常是：我们一起看新闻，我找或者她找一个话题，挑一个故事，然后我们就聊一聊。这真的很有趣，因为我以前没意识到，要理解技术，你还需要真正理解政府、公民学、政治、法律以及所有这些不同的东西。所以向一个对这些事情想得不多的孩子解释，对我来说非常吸引人。但这也是一种很酷的增进感情的经历。一开始是非常基础的理解，但坚持一两年之后，她对科技行业和世界就有了很好的理解。聊起来很有意思。

Every now and then, our oldest daughter is just like... The oldest one is nine, you said? Yeah, she's nine. So that's getting up there a little bit. So she's getting into the zone where she competes. She's doing history bee and competing in math, and really wants to understand the world. So my activities with her is we'll usually go through the news, I'll find or she'll find one thing, we'll pick out a story, and then we'll just talk about it. It's really interesting because it hadn't occurred to me before how much in order to understand technology you need to really understand government and civics and politics and law and all these different things. So trying to explain to a child who hasn't thought much about these things is very fascinating for me. But it's been a cool bonding experience. You start off with a really basic understanding, but after you've done it for a year or two, she has a very good understanding of the tech industry and the world and all this stuff. It's pretty interesting to talk through.

嗯，我觉得这对父母来说很有启发，听听你能和孩子聊什么？你懂我的意思吗？如果你的孩子 13 岁了，你还在给他们读《贝贝熊》之类的，那部分责任在你。你得为你的孩子升级一下课程。因为很多父母认为你可能无法在孩子脑海中构建这些世界，但如果你从基本模块开始，你就能做到，并帮助他们获得更大的想法。我觉得这很酷。我认为没有什么比父母与孩子的沟通方式以及沟通内容更重要了，因为我们常常指望老师、外面的各种课程或者世界本身来替我们教育孩子。但我认为孩子最大的水源是父母。这真的很酷。

Well, I think it's inspiring just to even parents to hear like what can you talk to your kid about? You know what I'm saying? Like if your kid's 13 and you're still reading them Berenstain Bears or whatever, some of that's on you. You got to evolve some of the curriculum for your child. Because a lot of parents think you probably can't build these worlds in a child's head, but if you start with the basic blocks, then you kind of can, and help them get bigger ideas about things. I think that's cool. I think there's nothing more important than how a parent communicates with their child, and what they communicate to them, because so often we just expect teachers and different curriculum out in the world or just the world to do that for our children. But I think the biggest faucet for a child is the parent. That's pretty cool.

小的那个才两岁。我们有了一个意外之喜。所以……不，她很好。但她非常迷恋她的姐姐们。有一天她突然决定：‘我不是婴儿了。’我们说：‘哦，你是家里的宝宝。’‘我是大女孩了。’这就像她身份的核心部分：她是个大女孩。她说：‘现在就给我发邮件。’是啊。不，就像：‘现在就给我发邮件。发到 sucker baby@Meta。’与此同时，她连发音都发不准。她说：‘我是个大女孩（bit girl）。’我说：‘好吧。那你先学会发音，我再相信你。’但她又说：‘我重六太字节，你知道吗，淡定。’她太有趣了。当爸爸，你要教他们基本的东西。我们有一本书叫《我是什么感觉？》，里面就是其他孩子的图片和他们的表情。她唯一能识别的情绪是开心。所以她会在崩溃大哭的时候，我问：‘Oreo，你感觉怎么样？’她只说：‘开心。’我说：‘不，你不用总是说开心。生活中拥有所有这些不同的情绪是正常的。理解你什么时候难过、生气或沮丧很重要。’但这太搞笑了。所以我们还在努力。我们还在情绪补救阶段。她会哭，但她知道那是世界。Oreo 是她的名字。Aurelia，但我们叫她 Oreo，我肯定等她长大了我们会后悔的。

And the little one is just two. We got a bonus. So it's... No, she's good. But she's very obsessed with her older sisters. So one day she just decided, 'I am not a baby.' And we're like, 'Oh, you're the family baby.' 'I'm a big girl.' That's like a core part of her identity: she's a big girl. She's like, 'Email me now.' Yeah. No, it's like, 'Email me now. Email me at sucker baby at Meta.' Meanwhile, she can't even fully pronounce it. She goes, 'I'm a bit girl.' It's like, 'Okay. Well, maybe learn how to pronounce it first and then I'll believe you.' But she's like, 'I weigh six terabytes, you know, calm down.' She's so funny. Being a dad, you're trying to teach them basic stuff. We have this book, 'How Do I Feel?' It's just pictures of other kids and their facial expressions. The only emotion she identifies with is happy. So she'll be having a terrible meltdown and sobbing, and I'm like, 'Oreo, how do you feel?' She just goes, 'Happy.' And it's like, 'No, you don't have to say happy all the time. It's normal in life to have all these different emotions. It's important to understand when you're sad or angry or frustrated.' But that's hilarious. So we're still working on that. We're still in the remedial emotional emotions phase. She'll be crying, but she knows that's the world. Oreo is her name. Aurelia, but we call her Oreo, which I'm sure we're going to regret when she's older.

嗯，这很可爱。我觉得 Oreo 可能会嫁给一个篮球运动员，我猜。谁知道呢，Mark？谁知道会发生什么？可能会变成 Oreo Zuckerberg。哥们，那时候你就进入食品行业了。Oreo Zuckerberg。我不知道。她可能成为糖果女王。

Well, it's cute. I think Oreo probably marry a basketball player, I'm guessing. Who knows, Mark? Who knows what'll happen? It could go, you know, Oreo Zuckerberg. Dude, that's when you get into the food industry. Oreo Zuckerberg. I don't know. She could be Sugar Empress.

嗯，门洛帕克。孩子们都会经历一个喜欢打扫和喜欢玩烹饪的阶段，对吧？就像：‘哦，给我一个锅。’我不知道是不是这样。我觉得很多孩子都这样。她只是说：‘给我一张桌子。我要像爸爸一样工作。给我一张桌子。我不想做这个烹饪。’她想拥有一家 Popeye's，但至少她有……但我喜欢这样。她是个大女孩。

Well, Menlo Park. Kids love going through a phase where they love cleaning and they love playing cooking, right? It's like, 'Oh, just give me a pan.' I don't know if that's something. I think a lot of kids are like that. She's just like, 'Give me a desk. I want to work like dad does. Give me a desk. I don't want to do this cooking.' She wants to own a Popeye's, but at least she has... But I like that though. She's a big girl.

我喜欢这个。我喜欢这个想法，某个地方有个孩子。这会让我的心情好很多。知道有一个孩子坐在桌子后面，就像在要求：‘是啊。这个婴儿床带宽不够。带宽不够，无法完成我需要完成的事情。’

I like that. I love that idea that some child somewhere. This is going to make my day so much better. Just knowing that a child is just there's a child behind a desk just like demanding. It's like 'Yeah. There's not enough bandwidth in this crib. Not enough bandwidth to the crib. To pull off what I need to pull off.'

我知道孩子们，你知道，我不……当爸爸有趣吗？你觉得享受吗？和孩子们建立联系感觉困难吗？作为有女儿的父亲，这会不会让你觉得有点棘手？

I know the kids, you know, I don't... Is it fun being a dad? Do you feel like you enjoy it? Does it feel kind of tough to connect with your children? Does that ever feel like a thing as a dad with daughters?

我觉得有些事情她们可能和妈妈更亲近，但我也觉得有些事情她们可能和我更亲近。和父亲的关系就是不同的动态。她们叫你什么？叫你爸爸、父亲还是 Mark？爸爸。虽然有时候她们不听话，Mark。然后我说：‘不，爸爸是一个头衔。一个头衔，一个我赢得的尊称。’她们说：‘怎么回事？’我说：‘Oreo，那是……回到你的婴儿床去。法庭上见。这些尿布太紧了。告诉我的律师。’

I think there's probably some things that they connect better with their mother about, but I feel like there's also some things that they probably just connect with me better about. It's just a different dynamic with a father. And what do they call you? Do they call you dad, father, Mark? Dad. Although sometimes they're being disobedient, Mark. And it's like, 'No, dad is a title. A title, an honorific title that I've earned.' They're like, 'What is going on?' It's like, 'Oreo, that is... Get back in your crib. I'll see you in court. These diapers are too tight. Tell my lawyer.'

太搞笑了。太疯狂了。

That's hilarious. That's crazy.

我认为对孩子来说，有好榜样是件好事，对吧？我的感觉是，孩子长大后，要么想嫁给与父母相反的人（如果童年经历不好），要么想嫁给他们认为的好榜样。所以只要他们仰慕我们，那就是你想树立的好榜样。但对我来说，我们之前聊过一点关于格斗的事，我一直觉得重要的是，我不想成为一个整天坐着工作的人。我觉得我们生来就不是整天坐在办公桌前的，总有一天 Oreo 会明白这一点。生活很大一部分是活动、运动和做事。这是很重要的一部分。我希望孩子们也能体会到这一点，他们确实非常活跃。

I think it's just good for them to have good role models, right? Part of the way I feel is when kids grow up, they either end up wanting to marry people who are the opposite of their parents if it was a bad experience, or people who they think of as a good role model. So I feel as long as they look up to us, that's what you want to set a good example. But for me, we talked about this a bit with the fighting stuff early on, but it's always been important that I don't just want to be a person who sits and works all the time. I think we're not meant to just sit at a desk all day long, and one day Oreo will learn that. A lot of life is moving around, being active, and doing stuff. That's a big part of it. It's important to me that the kids get that too, and they are very active.

你的孩子有很多屏幕时间吗？你允许他们有多少屏幕时间？

Do your kids have a lot of screen time? How much screen time do you allow your kids?

每个孩子情况不同。我们不会让他们随心所欲，但我确实希望他们能熟练使用这些东西，就像我们之前聊的。我希望他们学会编程和使用技术。我认为这很重要，因为现在很多社交都在网上进行。人们需要适应相关的规范。他们还太小，不能用社交媒体，但他们有 Messenger Kids。我们让他们可以视频聊天和文字聊天，并监控确保他们只和我们认为合适的人联系。我觉得这其实是好事。人们需要在成长过程中学会使用这些东西，尤其是有父母引导的情况下。我希望孩子们，只要他们有兴趣，就学会编程、在 Horizon 或 VR 工具里创作、玩 Roblox 和 Minecraft。这很好。还有很多教育学习工具。我们女儿准备比赛时，可以用这些工具取得进步。所以我觉得这些都不错，但我们不会让他们整天坐着看东西。

It's different for each one. We don't just let them do whatever, but I actually want them to be fluent with this stuff, like we talked about earlier. I want them to learn how to code and use technology. I think it's important because a lot of socialization happens online at this point. People need to get used to the norms around that. They're still too young to be using social media, but they have Messenger Kids. We make it so they can video chat and chat with their friends, and we monitor to make sure they're only connecting with people we think they should. I think it's actually good. People need to grow up learning how to use this stuff, especially with an engaged parent. I want the kids, to the extent they're interested, to learn how to code, create stuff in Horizon or VR tools, play Roblox and Minecraft. That's good. There are also educational study tools. When our daughter studies for competitions, she can make progress on that. So I think that stuff is good, but we're not just letting them sit and watch stuff all day long.

除非在飞机上，那你就得想尽办法熬过飞行。

Unless you're on a plane, then you do whatever you need to get through that flight.

没错。谢谢你，兄弟。这话得有人说。

Yeah. Thank you, dude. Somebody else needs to say that.

那个能让孩子安静几个小时的安抚奶嘴呢？我不是说要什么疯狂的东西，不违法，但我们需要一个高压安抚奶嘴回归社会，马克。给我们点东西吧，兄弟。这些孩子太吵了。我遇到过最疯狂的事。有一次在飞机上，我在做梦，做着美梦，因为我从来睡不好。我时不时浮出梦境，又沉下去。但我听到了尤克里里声。后来我醒来，发现有个小孩在飞机上和他父母一起弹尤克里里。我走过去，当着父母的面把手按在琴上。我还迷迷糊糊的，说：“今天不能弹这个。”尤克里里太吵了。尤克里里暂停。我们要关掉你这小小的夏威夷表演。没把琴砸了真是克制了。真的。所以我就用对孩子来说很严厉的语气说今天不弹了，尤其那还不是你的孩子。我运气好，父母也同意了。他们可能也对尤克里里烦透了，只是不敢跟孩子说。所以你帮了他们一个忙。

Where's the pacifier that really shuts these kids down for a couple hours? I'm not saying anything crazy, nothing illegal, but we need a high voltage pacifier back in society, Mark. Give us something, brother. These kids are screaming. The craziest thing happened to me. One time I'm on a plane, I'm dreaming, and I'm having some nice dreams because I never have good sleep. Every now and then I come to the surface of my dreams and go back underwater. But I heard a ukulele playing. At some point I wake up and there is a child playing a ukulele with his parents on this plane. I walked up and put my hand on it in front of the parents. I was still groggy and said, "We can't do this today." The ukulele is a lot. Time out for ukulele. We're shutting down this little hand Hawaii you got going on. It probably took a lot of restraint not to smash it. It really did. So I just said we're not doing this today in a tone that seems stern for a child, especially one who is not your child. I got lucky. The parents agreed. They were probably pissed about the ukulele too, afraid to tell their kids. So you did them a favor.

没错。就像，“嘿，Oreo，有时候生意关门了。”今天的工作时间结束了。明天再回办公室。有时候就得这样。所以我同意。请尽你所能阻止这些孩子在飞机上吵闹，因为我们指望你了。

Yeah. It's like, "Hey, Oreo, sometimes business is closed." It's like working hours are over for today. You'll be back in the office tomorrow. Sometimes you just have to. So I agree. Please do whatever you can to stop these kids from being on planes or screaming on planes, because we are looking to you for that.

好吧，也许有一天我们会实现这个。

Well, maybe one day we'll deliver that.

没人需要帮助花钱。有时候感觉整个世界都在想方设法花你的钱。我们要花你的钱。但人们不需要帮助花钱，人们需要帮助增长财富。这就是 Acorns 存在的意义。在一个想花你钱的世界里，Acorns 希望通过简单的储蓄和投资，让你的钱变成更多的钱。你不需要很有钱。Acorns 让你用现有的闲钱开始，哪怕只是零钱。你也不需要是专家。Acorns 推荐多元化投资组合，帮助你抵御市场波动。Acorns 甚至适用于儿童。我最近给我的侄女和侄子们设置了 Acorns，让他们看到储蓄是如何运作的。现在注册，加入超过 1400 万累计客户，他们已通过 Acorns 储蓄和投资超过 250 亿美元。此外，Acorns 将为你的新账户提供 20 美元奖金投资，访问 acorns.com/to 即可获得。今天就访问 acorns.com 获取你的 20 美元奖金投资。付费非客户代言补偿提供了积极推广 Acorns 的激励。投资涉及风险。Acorns advisors LLC 是注册投资顾问。查看重要披露信息，请访问 acorns.com/to podcasting。

Nobody needs help spending their money. Sometimes it feels like the whole world is just trying to spend your money. We're going to spend your money. But people don't need help spending their money. People need help growing their money. That's why there's Acorns. In a world that wants to spend your money, Acorns hopes to grow your money into more of your money with simple saving and investing. You don't need to be rich. Acorns let you get started with the spare money you've got right now, even if all you've got is spare change. And you don't need to be an expert. Acorns recommends a diversified portfolio that can help you weather all of the markets ups and downs. Acorns even works for children. I recently got my niece and nephews set up on Acorns so they can see how savings works. Sign up now and join the over 14 million alltime customers who have already saved and invested over $25 billion with Acorns. Plus, Acorns will boost your new account with a $20 bonus investment offer available at acorns.com/to. That's acorns.com to get your $20 bonus investment today. Paid non-client endorsement compensation provides incentive to positively promote Acorns investing involves risk. Acorns advisors LLC at registered investment adviser. View important disclosures at acorns.com/to podcasting.

感觉什么事都得自己干。你得确保背景和幕布布置好、干净，还得确保画面聚焦，然后坐下再调焦。还有剪辑。不算难以承受，但确实很多。我就这意思。我不是抱怨，但在有人帮忙之前就是这样。

It felt like everything you had to do it yourself. You had to make sure your backdrop and your curtain was set up and clean, and you had to make sure the thing was in focus, then sit down and get it back in focus. It was just... and you had to do the editing. It wasn't overwhelming, but it was a lot. That's all I'm saying. I'm not complaining, but that's how it is until you get some help.

对于数百万企业来说，Shopify 就是那个得力工具。Shopify 是全球数百万企业背后的电商平台，支撑了美国 10% 的电子商务。从 Mattel、Gym Shark 这样的家喻户晓的品牌，到刚刚起步的新品牌，Shopify 都能帮你搭建与品牌风格匹配的精美在线商店。有 Shopify 在你身边，把你的大生意想法变成现实。立即注册每月 1 美元的试用期，今天就开始销售，访问 shopify.com/tho。前往 shopify.com/theo。shopify.com/theo。

For millions of businesses, the tool that helps is Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all e-commerce in the US. From household names like Mattel and Gym Shark to brands just getting started, Shopify helps you build a beautiful online store to match your brand style. Turn your big business idea into with Shopify on your side. Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com/tho. Go to shopify.com/theo. shopify.com/theo.

我知道现在差不多是五月了。还没到五月，但我还在从假期中恢复。我知道这听起来很疯狂，但我知道我不是唯一一个。生活本身可能很混乱。但如果你负责电商业务的订单履行，你知道那是一种特别的混乱。但有了 ShipStation，你可以指望你的日常工作保持平静。ShipStation 通过一次登录从你所有店铺发货、自动化重复任务、在所有全球承运商中找到最优费率，每月节省时间和金钱。你永远不需要升级。ShipStation 随你的业务增长而扩展，无论它变得多大。用这款交付的运输软件平息订单履行的混乱。今天就切换到 Shipstation。访问 shipstation.com 并使用代码 theo 注册免费试用。那是 ship p sa t io n.com 并使用代码 theo。那是 shipstation.com 代码 theo。

I know it's May pretty much almost. It's before May, but I'm still recovering from the holidays. I know it sounds crazy, but I know I'm not the only one. Life in general can be chaotic. But if you're in charge of order fulfillment for an e-commerce business, you know that that's its own special kind of chaos. But with ShipStation, you can count on your day-to-day remaining calm. ShipStation saves hours and money every month by shipping from all your stores with one login, automating repetitive tasks and finding the best rates among all the global carriers. You'll never need to upgrade. ShipStation grows with your business, no matter how big it gets. Calm the chaos of order fulfillment with the shipping software that delivers. Switch to Shipstation today. Go to shipstation.com and use code theo to sign up for your free trial. That's ship p sa t io n.com and use code theo. That's shipstation.com code theo.

我确实认为未来版本的眼镜会达到那个水平。我想你有机会玩过这个，但嗯……你现在戴的是那副吗？

I do think a future version of the glasses will get there. I think you had a chance to play around with this a bit, but it's um... Are those the ones you have on right now or no?

嗯，不，这算是……我是说这些是今天就能买到的。这些就像 REI 眼镜。所以，我的意思是，它们是眼镜，可以……嗯，你知道，主要功能是……嗯，你可以用它们拍照或录像。嗯，我很喜欢用它们听音乐和接电话，因为你的耳朵是开放的，对吧？所以它不会……不会遮挡你听到其他声音的能力。嗯，音质非常好，对吧？因为它有一个麦克风，就像一个接触式麦克风，基本上在鼻托里。所以当我……是的。所以当我像……你可以在飞机上接电话，电话那头的人甚至听不到你在飞机上。就像……你可以在风洞里，它也无所谓。音质太棒了。但主要的是，嗯，它们是 AI 眼镜。所以你可以……我认为眼镜是设备的完美形态，如果你想让 AI 看到你所见、听到你所听，它能和你说话，你也能整天和它说话。嗯，眼镜就是……你知道，是的，如果你想要一个拥有和你相同世界语境的东西，那就会是眼镜。而且世界上已经有十亿或二十亿人戴眼镜了。嗯，所以对我来说，你知道，十年后我们回头看，那些眼镜在那时都会是 AI 眼镜。这有点像……显然所有翻盖手机都会变成智能手机，对吧？我的意思是，那显然是会发生的事。我认为眼镜也会发生同样的事。

Um, no, this is sort of... I mean these are the ones that are available today. These are like REI glasses. So, I mean it's... you know, they're glasses, they can... um, you know, the main thing is they can... um, you can take photos or videos with them. Um, I love just using them for listening to music um and taking phone calls on them because your ears are open, right? So it doesn't like... it doesn't obscure your ability to hear anything else. Um, the audio quality is really good, right? because it has a microphone like it's a contact mic um that's like basically in the nose pad. So when I'm... Yeah. So when I'm like you can be on a plane and take a phone call and like the other person on the other side can't even hear that you're on a plane. Like it's just like... the you can be in a wind tunnel and it's just like whatever. It's the... the sound quality is is amazing. But then the main thing is um they're AI glasses. So you can... glasses I think are like the perfect form factor for a device where if you want to have an AI that you let see what you see, hear what you hear, it can talk to you, you can talk to it throughout the day. Um, and glasses is that's like, you know, yeah, if you want to have something that has the same context of the world that you do, that's it's going to be glasses. And there's like... there's like a billion or two billion people in the world who wear glasses already. M so to me the... you know the chance that we look back like a decade from now and like all those glasses aren't AI glasses by that period. It's kind of like... like obviously all the flip phones were going to become smartphones, right? I mean that like that was clearly a thing that was going to happen. I think that's going to happen with um with glasses too.

但嗯，另一部分是，你将获得在现实世界中放置全息图的能力，对吧？所以我们今天与技术的体验是……嗯，我不知道，有点好笑，它是分割的，就像……你知道我们周围是物理世界，然后如果你想与数字内容互动，你需要竖起一块屏幕，对吧？所以可能是这样，你知道你带着你的小发光矩形——你的手机，你知道你有你的屏幕，如果你想投射什么东西，是的，你的电脑。但我认为在不久的将来，这应该会融合在一起，对吧？你会喜欢物理世界，但所有这些数字内容基本上都应该是全息图。你不需要物理屏幕。嗯，未来没有理由你需要在那里放一块屏幕。你只需要戴上眼镜，那块屏幕就会是一个全息图，对吧？那就是你让我体验的东西。是的。有人让我戴上了它。是的。是的。那是《怪奇物语》的最后一季。我戴上了他们给我的任何东西。它让 Lens Crafters 看起来相当……你知道，逊色。

But the um the other piece of this is that you're going to get the ability to kind of put holograms in the world, right? So our our experience with technology today is um I don't know it's kind of funny in a way how it's divided where it's like you... you know we have the physical world all around us and then if you want to interact with something digital you need to like put a screen up right so maybe it's like this you know you have your your small glowing rectangle your phone with you you know you you have like you know your screen if you want to like project something yeah your computer but I I think in the not too distant future this should be blended together right you'll like the physical world, but all this digital stuff should just basically be holograms. You shouldn't need like a physical screen. Um like there's no reason why in the future, you know, you want to have a screen there. You'll just have glasses and that screen will be a hologram, right? And that's what you that's what you put me in. Yeah. Somebody put me in it. Yeah. Yeah. That's final season of Stranger Things back there. I got put in whatever they put on me. It was like Lens Crafters makes lens crafters look pretty, you know, lame.

嗯，它……嗯，不一样。它……那是……嗯，太疯狂了。我会说它就像……我能说说发生了什么吗？是的。是的。是的。那是……所以，他们把它……你戴上眼镜，它们……就像你现在戴的那副的升级版，对吧？所以，那是几年后的事。你实际认为那需要多少年？嗯，我希望几年内我们就能推出那个版本的产品，但可能是四年或八年。希望接近四年，嗯，甚至更短，但嗯，但……我认为仍然会有像这样更简单的眼镜，然后会有更复杂的眼镜。那些会更贵。技术更多。是的。但有些人会想要更多技术。他们想要全息图。有些人只想要简单的体验，比如“好的，我有 AI。我能听音乐、接电话，做所有这些。”嗯，显然，你放进去的技术越少，它们就可以越薄，我的意思是有些人喜欢厚眼镜，有些人想要薄眼镜。嗯，是的，这很迷人。

Well, it's um it's different. It's... It was... Well, it was crazy. I'll say it was like... Can I say what happened on? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was... So, they put it... You put the glasses on and they're they're... It's like an advancement of the pair that you have on now, right? So, it's like years down the line. How many years down the line do you realistically think that those could... um I'm hoping that we'll have a version of that as a product in a few years, but it's going four years or eight years. Hopefully closer to four um or even less, but um but it's... I think that there will still be simpler glasses like this and then there will be more complex glasses. Those will be more expensive. There's more technology kind of. Yeah. But so some people will want like more tech. They'll want the holograms. Some people just want a simple experience where it's like, "All right, I got the AI. I got the ability to listen to music and phone calls and and do all that." Um, and then obviously the less tech that you put into them, the thinner they can be, which I mean some people like bulky glasses, some people want thin glasses. And um, yeah, it was fascinating.

是的。是的。他们在我手腕上放了一个东西，对吧？嗯哼。嗯，神经接口。一个神经接口。是的。我的意思是，你基本上可以通过大脑向手发送的信号用意念控制眼镜。是的，这太迷人了。就像我可以……嗯，如果需要的话触摸不同的结节之类的东西，或者不同的节点，不管它叫什么。我可以看着某些东西，它就会高亮显示，然后就像空中有一个屏幕，我可以走到房间另一边，再回来，屏幕还在那里，但在现实世界中它并不真的存在。只有戴上眼镜它才在那里。是的，它是一个全息图。是的。这太疯狂了，老兄。我不知道。然后我想，嗯，我的第一个想法是，你怎么让人们适应这个？因为人们不会直接从我们现在的地方跳到适应。然后我意识到，好吧，有不同的台阶。就像你拿到第一部智能手机，就像你说的，然后它进步了，或者第一部手机，然后你有了第一副 Meta 眼镜，然后它进步了，诸如此类。所以，这很迷人。

Yeah. Yeah. They had a a thing on my wrist, right? Uhhuh. Uh, neural interface. A neural interface. Yeah. I mean, you could basically control the glasses with your mind through signals that you're sending from your brain to your hand. Yes, it was fascinating. It was like I could like um touch different nodules if I needed to and stuff or different nodes, whatever it's called. I could look at certain things and that would highlight what it was and it was like a it was just a screen in midair and I could walk around the side of the room and then come back and the screen would still be there, but it wasn't really there in real life. It was just there with the glasses on. Yeah, it's a hologram. Yes. And it was it was crazy, man. I don't know. And then I was like, well, my first thought was like, well, how do you just get people to adapt to this? Cuz people aren't just going to go from where we are right now to adapt. And then I realized, okay, there's different stair steps. There's like almost like when you got the first smartphone, like you're saying, and then it advance or the first mobile phone and then you have the first metaglasses and then it advances and stuff like that. So, it was fascinating.

有一段经历，我和一个刚认识的人打乒乓球。那是个亚洲人，我不知道他们是不是故意的，也不知道乒乓球是不是亚洲的，但人们觉得是。我和那个人在后面打了起来，你懂的，还有球桌。哈？你赢了吗，老兄？谁知道呢？我们在未来。我不知道他们记不记分。我觉得每个人都拿奖牌。

There was a part where me and another man who I just met, we played ping pong. I believe it was an Asian guy. I don't know if they did that on purpose or not, and I don't know if ping pong is Asian but people think it is. I started playing with this man back there, you know, and the table. Huh? Did you win, dude? Who knows? We're in the future. I don't know if they keep score. I think everybody gets a medal.

不，你肯定记分。

No, you definitely keep score.

哦，是吗？是的。然后在我们的未来，不是每个人都拿奖牌。对。我喜欢这样。你不是吗？就像……对，那更……奥利奥，把烤架点起来。对。输家负责烤。但说真的，我们可以玩一局……而且那不是真的。我们面前有一张乒乓球桌，但不是真的。就像 3D 乒乓球。对。所以它并不存在。嗯哼。有人可以骑着自行车穿过，就像你那个傻兄弟骑着他那该死的自行车。真见鬼。对，瑞奇，兄弟，你他妈的直接穿过了我们的网。所以，我觉得这是个有趣的思维实验。我们拥有的实体物品有多少在未来是不需要的，对吧？所以，几乎所有的屏幕都不需要存在，对吧？它们只会是全息图。任何媒体、你玩的任何书、任何棋盘游戏、纸牌，那些都会很好，因为我讨厌的一点是机场里所有的电视都开着。现在一切都太吵了。就像，你能不能只为你自己播放？调低音量。为什么我们都要经历这个？对。没错。有时候真是痛苦的噪音。对。就像你开车穿过城市，有广告牌，但没有任何个性化。就像以前的电视，对吧？我的意思是，在未来，现在你手机上用的所有东西，你都能得到你感兴趣的内容，体验质量高得多，但所有这些实体东西都还留着，对吧？而且是静态的。对，我觉得一切都会……抱歉，不是一切，但这是个有趣的思维实验：我们今天拥有的实体东西有多少在未来其实不需要存在。

Oh, you do? Yeah. And then in our future, not everyone gets a medal. Yeah. I like that. Are you not? It's like Yeah. No, that's more Yeah. Oreo, fire up the grill. Yeah. Loser burns. But no, we could play a game of... And it was not real. It was a ping pong table in front of us that was not real. It was like 3D ping pong. Yeah. So it wasn't there. Uh-huh. Someone could ride their bike through, like your dumb brother could ride his freaking bike. Like dang it. Yeah, Ricky, bro, you freaking rode right through our net. So, I think it's an interesting thought experiment. How many of the things that we physically have aren't going to need to be there in the future, right? So, pretty much every screen doesn't need to be there, right? It'll just be a hologram. Any media, any book that you're playing, any board game, cards, those would be nice because one thing I hate is at the airport all these TVs are on. It's like everything is so loud now. It's like, can you just make it for you? Turn it down. Why do we all have to experience this? Yeah. Exactly. Painful noise sometimes. Yeah. It's like you're driving through a city and there's billboards and nothing is personalized. It's like how TV used to be, right? I mean, in the future, now like all the stuff that you use on your phone, it's like you get exactly what you're interested in and it's just a much higher quality experience, but there's all this physical stuff that just stuck, right? And is static. Yeah, I think everything is going to be able to... Sorry, not everything, but it's an interesting thought experiment how much of the stuff that we physically have today just doesn't actually need to exist in the future.

那么你觉得社交媒体是坏的吗？我觉得不是，但也许这个词不对。比如到了某个点……你知道，有研究说，像 doom scrolling 之类的东西会导致抑郁，诸如此类。你觉得呢？你怎么看？

So do you think social media is bad? I mean I don't think so but yeah maybe that's not the right term. Like at a certain point does... Like how much, you know, there's been studies done where it's like doom scrolling and stuff like that can lead to depression, that sort of thing. Like do you... What do you think about that?

听着，我们显然在非常仔细地研究这些东西。

So look, we obviously study this stuff pretty carefully.

你们研究？

You guys do?

是的。我们研究它。我们与学者合作研究。你可以想象，有很多媒体报道非常耸人听闻，试图带有偏见。我对当前研究状况的理解是，没有确凿的发现表明这对人们的幸福感是负面的。所以，我认为总的来说，一些对人们有积极影响的东西是建立关系。所以社交媒体有媒体部分和社交部分。我认为与人互动，如果它能帮助你建立良好的关系，友谊和良好关系是与积极幸福感以及生活满意度最相关的因素之一。媒体部分，我觉得那更娱乐。人们想要有趣的东西，对吧？人们当然想要被娱乐。它不一定与好或坏的幸福感相关。但我想我对这些东西的看法是，我们现代的在线环境只是我们生活的一个环境，有利有弊，就像你住在城市还是乡村。有些人可能更喜欢住在城市。城市有好有坏。我们从社会主要在线下，到现在这种混合的物理和数字现实，有些方面更好了，有些可能没那么好。并不是每一步每件事都改善了，但我认为总体效果是显著的改善。我只是看不到人们会想回到没有服务、无法获取感兴趣的内容、没有个性化、无法与想联系的人沟通、只能局限于身边人的状态。我们不会回到过去。如果你纵观历史，当人们最初建造城市时，有很多对简单生活的怀旧。也许城市并非在每方面都更好，有些人可能只偶尔去，但我们在作为社会不断构建更多能力。我只是把这些东西更多地看作是我们生活的环境。

Yeah. We study it. We work with academics to study it. As you can imagine, there's a lot of media coverage of this stuff that's very sensationalist that tries to have a skewed point of view. My understanding of the current state of the research is that there isn't a conclusive finding that this is negative for people's well-being. So, I think that in general, some of the stuff that ends up being positive for people is building relationships. So there's the media part of social media and the social part of social media. I think the interacting with people, to the extent that that's helping you build good relationships, friendships and good relationships is one of the things that correlates the most strongly with positive well-being and feeling good about your life. The media stuff, I think that's more entertaining. People want things that are fun, right? People want to be entertained for sure. It doesn't necessarily correlate with good well-being or bad well-being. But I guess the way that I think about this stuff is that our modern online environment is just an environment in which we live, in a way that has pros and cons, like whether you live in a city or a rural place. Some people may prefer living in a city. There are things that are good about a city. There are things that are bad about a city. The fact that we went from being primarily offline as a society to now this kind of hybrid physical and digital reality, there are some things that are better about that, some things that are maybe less good. It's not that every single thing improves at each step along the way, but I think overall the overall effect is significant improvement. And I just don't see a way that people would want to go back to not having services where they can get the content that they're interested in and where stuff is personalized to them and where they can communicate with the people who they want and don't need to be constrained to just the people who are physically around them. We're not going back to that. If you look throughout history, when people first built cities, there was a lot of nostalgia for the simpler life. Maybe cities aren't better in every single way, and some people might prefer to only go sometimes, but we're building more and more capabilities as society. I just think about this stuff more as an environment in which we live.

就像有些人，我想因为我一直在想这个。我想很多人都在想。就像我们正在进入一个……技术发展快得多，对吧？它在加速进步，而我们只是人类，现在处在一个代际之间，一代人完全在网上长大，另一代则不然。所以我想，老一辈可能觉得这太负面了，每个人都陷进去了，但我想知道年轻一代是否知道有什么不同，对吧？我开始想，作为人的价值是什么？随着技术越来越先进，这种价值是开始消散还是改变？你有时会想这个吗？

Like some, I think because I've been thinking a lot about this. I think a lot of people have. It's like we're moving into such a... technology is advancing so much faster, right? It's accelerating the advancement speed and then we're just humans and we're in this space now where there's one generation to the next where one generation was completely grown up online and one hasn't really. So I wonder, and I think the older generation probably sees it as like man this is so negative everybody's stuck, but I wonder if the younger generation do they even know any different, right? You know, I start to wonder what is the value of being human, like what is the... does that start to dissipate as we become more technologically advanced or does that alter? Do you think about that sometimes?

是的，我认为它会给人自由，让他们更专注于自己想做的事。如果你看历史的轨迹，回到古代，生活相当残酷，对吧？然后到工业革命前夕，他们一度有团队厕纸，有集体厕纸，那就像……那不好。

Yeah, I think it's going to give people the freedom to focus more on the things that they want. I think if you look at the arc of history, go back to ancient times, life was pretty brutal, right? Then you go to maybe right before the industrial revolution where they had team toilet paper at one time, they had group toilet paper and it was like... That's not good.

我不认为任何怀念过去的人真的考虑了过去存在的疾病和卫生条件差的问题。工业革命前，很大一部分人口是农民，因为每个人都需要种植食物。后来我们能够更高效地生产食物，解放了人们去做其他事情。现在可能只有 2% 的人是农民，98% 的人可以做其他创造性的事情。农民是一份非常辛苦的工作，工作时间很长。随着人们有了更多选择，他们选择了其他工作。花在休闲和娱乐上的时间比例随着时间的推移稳步增加。我认为随着技术的发展，这种情况将继续下去。基本需求将得到满足，人们可以自由地从事更多创造性工作，或者如果他们不想的话，不必那么辛苦地工作。但有些人会像我一样喜欢一直工作，你将能够比以往任何时候都完成更多的事情。这将是一种选择。

I don't think anyone who has nostalgia for the past is really taking into account the disease and the lack of hygiene that existed. Pre-industrial revolution, a huge percent of the population was farmers because everyone needed to grow food. Then we got to the point where we could produce food much more efficiently, freeing up people to do other stuff. Now maybe 2% of people can be farmers and 98% can do other creative things. Being a farmer is a really hard job, working long hours. As people got more options, they took other jobs. The percent of time spent on leisure and entertainment has steadily increased over time. I think that will continue with technology. Basic needs will be taken care of, freeing people to do more creative jobs or not work as hard if they don't want to. But some people will like working all the time like me, and you'll be able to get more done than ever before. That will be a choice.

既然你是创新和技术的领导者，你怎么知道你的信念对每个人都最好？你是怎么弄清楚的？这似乎是一个很大的挑战。

Since you're a leader in innovation and technology, how do you know that your convictions are the best for everybody? How do you figure that out? It seems like such a challenge.

归根结底，人们仍然有很多选择。我建造某样东西并不意味着人们会使用它。有些事情行得通，有些则不行。公司成功的一部分原因是成功率略高，但这就像棒球——大多数时候大多数人上不了垒。不成功的事情比成功的多。如果我们做了不成功的事情，人们通常不会使用它，未来也不会朝那个方向发展。

At the end of the day, there are still a lot of options for people. Just because I build something doesn't mean people will use it. Some things work, some don't. Part of why the company has been successful is a slightly higher hit rate, but it's like baseball—most people don't get on base most of the time. More stuff doesn't work than does. If we do something that doesn't work, people generally won't use it, and the future doesn't go in that direction.

所以你是说这更取决于用户。

So you're saying it's up to the user more.

看待世界的一种方式是，个体非常强大，拥有很大的自主权。有些叙事试图削弱人们的自主权，但我一直相信人们比其他人认为的更聪明。人们可以为自己的生活做出好的决定。当媒体认为某件事不合理时，通常是因为他们不了解那个人的生活，而不是因为人们愚蠢。如果人们说了看似错误的话，通常不是错误信息——而是你不了解他们生活中发生了什么。主流叙事中有一种家长式作风，一种自以为是的态度。我认为这种情况正在改变，因为文化精英们越来越难以预测世界。最好的预测指标一直是：如果你建造了某样东西，人们真的认为它好吗？我相信人们非常聪明，非常了解自己的生活。如果你建造了有用的东西，他们会使用它。如果没有用，他们有其他选择。相信人们一直对我很有帮助。每当我们采取‘我们一定比他们更懂’的态度时，那就是你失败的时候。如果你长期持有这种态度，你就会变成一家糟糕的公司，变得无关紧要。人们比很多人认为的更聪明，他们最终会推动社会发展的方向。

One way to look at the world is that individual people are very powerful and have a lot of autonomy. There are narratives that try to diminish people's autonomy, but I've always believed that people are smarter than others think. People can make good decisions for their lives. When the media thinks something doesn't make sense, it's usually because they don't understand that person's life, not because people are stupid. If people say something that seems wrong, it's usually not misinformation—it's that you don't understand what's going on in their life. There's a certain paternalism in mainstream narratives, a know-it-allism. I think that's starting to change as cultural elites have a harder time predicting the world. The best predictor has always been: if you build something, do people actually think it's good? I believe people are very smart and understand their lives well. If you build something useful, they will use it. If not, they have other options. It's served me well to have faith in people. Whenever we adopt an attitude of 'we must know better than them,' that's when you lose. If you have that attitude long enough, you become a shitty company and become irrelevant. People are smarter than a lot of people think, and they ultimately drive the direction society goes in.

人们常说埃隆·马斯克社交尴尬。我觉得我们都是。这些年来你感到过社交尴尬吗？

People often say Elon Musk is socially awkward. I think we all are. Have you ever felt socially awkward over the years?

不，我很圆滑。显然是的。我是最尴尬的人。人们在网上叫我机器人已经 20 年了。这对我的自信很有好处。

No, I'm really smooth. Obviously yes. I'm the most awkward person. People have been calling me a robot online for 20 years. It does wonders for my confidence.

你的自信不会被刺穿。那是你内心的一颗北极星。你可能已经变得刀枪不入了。你看起来像是一个在 YouTube 上看过如何做男人的视频的人。但我们都以不同的方式经历尴尬。把你放在某些环境中，你一点也不尴尬。我还没有找到那些环境。但今天你能来这里真是太好了。

Your confidence cannot be impaled. That's a sheer northstar inside you. You might have become bulletproof. You seem like a guy who watched a video on how to be a guy on YouTube. But we all go through awkwardness in different ways. Put you in certain environments, you're not at all. I haven't found those environments yet. But it's nice of you to be here today.

不，我觉得播客很棒，因为你可以探索一些东西，对吧？但我的问题是——抱歉，马克，我不是故意打断你，但我没别的机会了。我的问题是，那些可能自认为有时社交尴尬的人，却在创造连接人们的社交技术，这难道不有趣吗？你有没有觉得这很迷人？因为我一直有种信念，有时社交尴尬的人几乎像是人类和机器的混合体，就像未来什么的。你觉得这有道理吗？

No, I think the podcasts are awesome because you get to explore something, right? But here's my question. Sorry, Mark, I don't mean to interrupt you, but I'm not going to get another chance to. So my question is, is it interesting that they have kind of people who would probably self-describe as socially awkward at times kind of creating technology that socially connects people? Do you ever find that kind of fascinating? Because I've always had a belief that sometimes socially awkward people are almost a mix between human and machine, like the future or something. Does that make any sense to you?

嗯，这是个有趣的问题。我觉得这里有很多因素需要拆开来看。一个人可以有社交洞察力，理解社交动态中发生了什么，有很强的同理心并关心他人，同时在沟通方式上却相当笨拙。我不认为你能建起一座……嗯，我试图搭一座太宽的桥。

Yeah, it's an interesting question. I think there are a bunch of factors here that you need to peel apart. Someone can be socially perceptive and understand what is going on in social dynamics and have a lot of empathy and care about other people while still being quite awkward in how they communicate. I don't think you can build a great... Yeah, I'm trying to build too broad of a bridge.

不，我觉得你说得有道理。我是说，很多社交媒体都是人们创造精彩内容并很好地沟通。而这些并不是我最大的强项。我远非最好的沟通者。我认为我能走到今天，是因为我理解人们喜欢什么，并且有能力把它建造出来，但我的强项不是沟通我建造的东西为什么很棒。我通常喜欢让作品自己说话。我试着解释我的思考方式，但我不认为人们主要因为看到我谈论它就觉得“哦，这看起来超级令人兴奋”才使用我们的产品。以不尴尬的方式沟通的能力，与理解和同情他人及社交互动的能力是不同的技能。有趣的是，我实际上认为，有时那些能以最流畅方式沟通的人，反而比那些不太能表达自己但更理解状况的书呆子型家伙，拥有更少的同理心和对社交动态的理解。世界很复杂，所有这些事情都有多个维度，没有人擅长所有方面。所以你只需做你喜欢的事，磨练你擅长的东西，并把它用于服务，尽你所能做好工作。

No, I think it's a fair point. I mean, a lot of social media is people creating great content and communicating really well. And those are not my biggest strengths. I don't think I'm the best communicator by a long shot. I think I got to where I am because I understand what people like and I have the ability to build it, but I don't think my strength is communicating about why what I'm building is awesome. I generally like to let my work speak for itself. I try to explain how I'm thinking about it, but I don't think people primarily use our stuff because they saw me talk about it and thought, "Oh, this seems super exciting now." The ability to communicate in a way that is not awkward is a different skill than the ability to understand and have empathy for people and social interactions. There's an interesting thing where I actually think sometimes a lot of the people who can communicate in the smoothest way sometimes have a lot less empathy and understanding of social dynamics than the kind of nerdy guy who may not be able to express himself quite as well, but understands a little bit better what's going on. The world's complicated, there are multiple dimensions to all this stuff, and no one is good at all of them. So you just try to do the things you like, hone the things you're good at, and put it to service to do as good of work as you can.

是的。我认为我们处在一个独特的位置，我相信有一两代人认为某样东西不是社交性的，而年轻一代则认为它是社交性的。所以我觉得在某种意义上，我们正处在人类沟通方式的十字路口，这种进步有时很难迈出步伐。这是我最后一个问题，因为我知道你得走了。我觉得埃隆·马斯克想上火星，让其他星球受孕，或者他在做的任何事。他只是把自己的座位发射到不同的火箭里。他就像太阳系的约翰尼·苹果籽。但上帝保佑，100%。我只是开玩笑。我想他大概知道。我只是觉得有趣，你明白他的想法。他想上火星，发射火箭，让一切太阳能化。你是如此创新和领导力。你觉得你的目标是什么，或者你看到我们走向何方？你看到我们到达一个你真正自豪的点，并且你看到我们走向那里的是什么？因为我们都在这辆巴士上一起前往某个地方，我们并不确切知道要去哪里，因为那是未来。但你算是开车的人之一，至少坐在副驾驶。那么我们要去哪里？

Yeah. I think we're in this unique place where I believe it's one or two generations think that something isn't social and then the younger generation thinks that it is social. So I feel like in some senses we're at this crossroads of how we communicate as humans a little bit, and this advancement, and sometimes those steps are tricky to take. This is my last question because I know you have to go. I feel like Elon Musk wants to get on Mars and impregnate different planets or whatever he's doing. He's just blasting his seat out into the different rockets. He's like the Johnny Apple solar system. But God bless, 100%. I'm just joking. I think he probably would know that. I just think it's interesting you get what his ideas are. He wants to be on Mars, send rockets, make everything solar powered. You're such an innovator and a leader. What do you feel is your kind of goal, or where do you see us going? What is the thing where you see us at a point where you're really proud of and this is where you see us going? Because we're all on this bus together going somewhere, and we don't exactly know where we're going because it's the future. But you're kind of one of the guys driving the bus, or at least riding shotgun. So where are we going?

我认为不同的人只关心未来的不同部分。太空这件事，我觉得很酷。我很高兴有人在研究它。但这从来不是我的主要方向。对我来说，一切始终围绕着如何构建技术来帮助人们相互连接并更好地理解世界，而且它随着时间的推移采取了不同的形式。你从写文字开始，然后我们有了智能手机和摄像头。我们开始拍很多照片并分享。现在我们做的大部分是视频。移动网络足够好，你可以分享高质量视频。10 年前你试着看视频，它一直在缓冲，很糟糕。但现在好了。人们总是想以他们能获得的最丰富形式来表达自己的想法并体验他人的想法。如果是文字，那就是他们拥有的最好的。照片，视觉的，很棒。一图胜千言。视频在大多数事情上比照片更好。但我不认为这是终点。我认为我们会在那里，无论是 5 年还是 10 年。完全捕捉瞬间、真正体验它们的能力——这就是我们谈论的全息图。这将是人们表达想法的下一个层次。就像下一块空白画布。所以这是一件事。然后还有整个 AI 的事情，我们还没花时间聊。那真的会给人们很多新工具，让他们在做的每件事上都变得更聪明。如果你通过我们如何表达自己以及如何理解正在发生的事情这个视角来看世界，AI 对两者都将非常强大。你已经可以看到一些基本的东西，比如人们创建图像。这令人难以置信。它发生得如此之快，太疯狂了。

I think different people just care about different parts of the future. The space thing, I think it's cool. I'm glad that people are working on it. It's never really been my main thing. For me, it's all been about the intersection of how do you build technology that helps people connect with each other and understand the world better, and it's just taken different formats over time. You got started with writing text, then we got smartphones and cameras. We started taking a lot of photos and sharing that. Now most of what we do is video. The mobile networks are good enough that you can share great video. 10 years ago you try watching a video, it's buffering, terrible. But now it's good. People always want to both express their ideas and experience other people's ideas in whatever the richest format is that they can. If that was text, then that was the best they had. Photos, visual, great. A picture's worth a thousand words. Video better than photo for most things. But I don't think that's the end of the line. I think we're going to be here, whether it's 5 years or 10 years. The ability to fully capture moments, to really be able to experience them — that's the hologram thing we're talking about. That's going to be the next level of people being able to express ideas. Like the next blank canvas. So that's one thing. And then there's the whole AI thing which we haven't spent time on. That is really going to give people a lot of new tools to get smarter at everything they do. If you look at the world through this lens of how we express ourselves and how we take in an understanding of what's going on, AI is just going to be super powerful for both. You can already see some of the basic stuff with people creating images. It's unbelievable. It's crazy how fast it's happening.

这就是我惊讶的地方，就是它发生得如此之快。

That's what I'm amazed at is just how fast it's happening.

但你是否设想了一个乌托邦式的愿景？你怎么看？你可能是最善于运用思想的人之一。外面是什么样子？

But do you envision like a utopian idea? How do you see things? You're probably one of the smartest people to ever use thought. What is it like out there?

我认为我们会获得通用智能。我们将拥有比任何个体都更聪明的系统。这主要会赋予人们更多力量。今天已经有比任何个人更聪明的系统，比如一个数千人协作的公司。未来，不是少数人利用这种力量，而是几乎每个人都能拥有。这意味着更多想法会被尝试，提升整体创造力。它会影响到每个领域：科学进步，生产力提高，事情变得更有趣、更好笑——梗变得更奇怪、更具体。那也是进步。这有点像通用基础技术，用简单媒介表达复杂想法的能力。我们会越来越擅长，推进我们对社会的理解。所以我认为我们会获得超级智能，延续人类一百多年来更多时间做创造性事情、更少苦差事的趋势。你将拥有比想象中更强大的工具。

I think we're going to get general intelligence. We'll have systems smarter than any individual. It's mostly going to be very empowering. There are already systems smarter than any one individual today, like a company with thousands of people working together. Instead of relatively few people harnessing that power, in the future almost everyone will have that. That means more ideas get tried out, leveling up creativity. It'll affect every field: science advances, productivity increases, and things get more fun and funny—memes get weirder and more specific. That's advancement too. It's like universal basic technology, the ability to express complex ideas in simple media. We'll get better at that, advancing our understanding of society. So I think we'll get superintelligence, continuing a hundred-year trend of more time for creative things and less drudgery. You'll have more powerful tools than ever imagined.

所以这不是一种信念，而是一个选择空间？

So it's not a conviction, but a space of choice?

什么意思？

What do you mean?

就像你并不执着于某个特定的未来；它是一个选择空间。如果你想做这些事，你就可以做。你在公交车上那张照片有点怪。我觉得那不好。可怕的 AI。我觉得那是 OpenAI 的。抱歉。

Like you're not convicted to a specific future; it's a space of choice. If you want to do these things, you can. There you are on the bus. That's a weird photo. I don't think that's good. Horrible AI. I think that was OpenAI. Sorry about that.

我一点也不喜欢那个。

I don't like that at all.

你觉得你会永生吗，马克？你有这个想法吗？

Do you think you'll live forever, Mark? Is that a thought coming to your head?

我不知道。永生。总有一天会的。我换个方式说吧。在 Meta 之外，我和普莉希拉通过 Chan Zuckerberg Initiative 做的慈善主要关注治愈疾病。我们不是专注于某一种疾病，而是关注 AI 和生物学交叉的基础技术，以加速科学进步。我们最初认为一百年是一个时间框架来治愈、预防和处理所有疾病。我认为由于 AI，这有可能更快发生。我现在更乐观了。这是否意味着永生，或者只是在我们应该活着的时期过更健康的生活，我认为我们还不了解。但治愈疾病不仅仅关乎永生；它关乎在你活着的时候拥有更好的生活——不因疾病或受伤而感觉糟糕。

I don't know. Live forever. At some point we will. Let me come at it this way. Outside of Meta, the philanthropy I do with Priscilla through the Chan Zuckerberg Initiative is focused on curing diseases. We're not focusing on any single disease, but on basic technology at the intersection of AI and biology to accelerate science. We originally thought a hundred years was the timeframe to cure, prevent, and deal with all diseases. I think there's a chance that happens sooner because of AI. I'm more optimistic now. Whether that means living forever or just healthier lives for the period we're supposed to live, I don't think we understand that yet. But curing diseases is not just about living forever; it's about having better lives while you're alive—not feeling terrible from sickness or injury.

你认为我们有可能找到治愈所有疾病的方法来延续生命吗？

Do you think it's possible we could figure out curing all diseases to keep life going?

我认为有可能。老实说，这不是我深入研究过的领域。我们不知道会发生什么。十年后再看吧。随着 AI 取得更多进展，我们会看到轨迹。我认为它会释放大量创造力、生产力和乐趣。科技行业常常忽略了乐趣。人们专注于制作更好的文字处理器或更高效地处理信息。但人们真正关心的是娱乐、乐趣、给朋友看有趣的东西、一起玩。AI 会让这一切变得很棒。这是我们 Meta AI 的重点——我们称之为个人 AI。

I think it's possible. Honestly, it's not an area I've studied that much. We don't know what's going on. Let's check back in 10 years. As AI makes more progress, we'll get a sense of the trajectory. I think it's going to unlock a lot of creativity, productivity, and fun. The technology industry misses fun a lot. People are focused on making a better word processor or processing information better. But a lot of what people care about is being entertained, having fun, showing funny things to friends, and hanging out. AI is going to make all that great. That's a big focus for us at Meta AI—we call it personal AI.

我的意思是，我们的目标不只是构建一个超级智能的东西。我们正在尝试解决完整的通用智能和超级智能，但要构建一个人们愿意使用的产品，你需要一些有趣的东西。这意味着不只是打字，而是进行对话。它不仅仅要能回答难题，还应该了解你、你觉得什么好笑、你吃了什么、你的爱好，这样它才能与你产生共鸣。

I mean, our goal on this is not just to build something that's super smart. We're trying to solve full general intelligence and superintelligence, but to build a product people want to use, you need something fun. That means not just typing to it, but having a conversation. It's not only about answering hard questions; it should get to know you, what you think is funny, what you ate, your hobbies, so it can relate to you.

我认为人们不知道 AI 能做到这一点。我们缺少关于 AI 是什么以及如何使用它的教育。我注意到即使在我自己的生活中，人们也不理解正在发生的事情。所以我不知道如何让人们快速接受教育。谁能最好地帮助人们自我教育，谁就能最好地把人们凝聚到他们的 AI 模型上。很多人说“我们有最好的 AI”，但大多数人都在想“我们到底在干什么？”

I think people don't know that AI can do that. We're missing education on what AI is and how to use it. I noticed even in my own life, people aren't understanding what's going on. So I don't know how we get people educated quickly. Whoever can serve people the best way to educate themselves will be able to best coagulate people to their AI model. A lot of people say, 'We have the best AI,' but most people are like, 'What the hell are we doing?'

是的。

Yeah.

所以，总之，抱歉。我想我让你待得比预定时间长了。我们聊了很多技术方面的东西。有时候我们不知道发生了什么，我们想和你这样的人聊聊。这很重要。

So, anyway, sorry. I think I kept you longer than we were supposed to. We got on a lot of technological stuff. Sometimes we don't know what's happening and we want to talk to somebody like you. It's important.

不，没关系。这是一次有趣的对话。

No, it's good. This is a fun conversation.

是的，兄弟。我也很享受。谢谢你跟我们分享你生活的一部分。我希望我们继续确保我们活着，或者不管怎样，继续努力。好了，这就是我们现在能要求的全部了，先生。太棒了。马克，谢谢。感激不尽，兄弟。

Yeah, man. I enjoyed it, too. Thanks for sharing just some of what your life is like with us. I hope just keep make sure we stay alive or whatever if we're supposed to and just keep working on it. Okay, that's all we can ask for now, sir. Awesome. Mark, thanks. Appreciate it, brother.

嗯。

Yeah.

现在我随风飘荡，感觉自己像这些落叶一样飘落。我一定是基石。哦，但当我到达地面时，我会分享我找到的这份内心的平静。我能从骨子里感觉到。还想感谢 Grace Dental 的人们。那是加州帕洛阿尔托的 Grace Dental。我的牙齿断了，他们在今天的采访前帮我粘好了。所以，我很感激他们的帮助，也很高兴能见到他们。

Now I'm just floating on the breeze and I feel I'm falling like these leaves. I must be corner stone. Oh, but when I reach that ground, I'll share this peace of mind I found. I can feel it in my bones. Also want to say a thank you to the people at Grace Dental. That's Grace Dental in Palo Alto, California. They glued my tooth was broken and they glued it back together before the interview today. So, I'm thankful that they helped and I'm grateful that I got to meet them.