在品牌设计核心注入意义

欢迎来到 Dive Club。我是 Rid，这里是设计师永不停歇学习的地方。本周的嘉宾是 Sarah Vienna，MetalAB 的首席设计官。我们将讨论设计师在塑造我们即将进入的 AI 世界中所肩负的责任，以及如何让你的设计产品打动人心。这也是我在节目中进行的更坦诚的对话之一。我们毫不避讳地谈论行业的现状以及当今设计师的感受。但在深入探讨之前，我想先了解他们最近为 Windsurf 所做的工作，以及如何将意义注入品牌的核心。

Welcome to Dive Club. My name is Rid and this is where designers never stop learning. This week's episode is with Sarah Vienna who's the chief design officer at MetalAB. So, we're going to talk about the responsibility that designers have to shape this AI world that we're entering and what it's going to take to make people feel something about the products that you design. Now, this is also one of the more raw conversations that I've had on this show. I mean, we do not hold back about the current state of the industry and what it feels like to be a designer today. But before we get into all of that, I wanted to learn more about their recent work for Windsurf and what it takes to inject meaning at the heart of a brand.

不管你喜欢与否，这个品牌确实受到了非常好的反响。我们很高兴能参与其中，也很高兴能与那些真正想表达与众不同、敢于尝试截然不同且有态度的品牌合作。无论设计 Twitter 是否喜欢这种观点，我们从一些非常尊敬的人那里得到了极好的反馈，但总也有反对者。我最喜欢的一句评论是“这看起来像同性婚礼吐在了科技上”之类的。太棒了，我喜欢。如果你在设计 Twitter 上没被人稍微议论一下，我觉得你真的成功了吗？

Whether you like it or not, it has been a brand that's been really incredibly well received. And so we're stoked to be part of it and stoked to be a partner with brands like that who really want to say something that's differentiated from all of the trends that you see out there and try to do something that feels decidedly different and opinionated. Whether or not design Twitter likes that opinion, we've gotten some incredible feedback from people we have so much respect for, but there's always the naysayers, too. And one of my favorite quotes is 'this looks like a gay wedding threw up on tech' or something like that. It was amazing. I love that. If you don't have a little bit of being talked about on design Twitter, I feel like have you really made it?

没错。你得有点争议。至少得有一点点反对的声音。只需要一点点两极分化。

Yeah. You messed up. You got to have at least a little bit of push back. It has to be just a dash of polarizing.

只需要一点点。这不是我一个人的功劳，是团队一起做的。团队真正努力去理解客户：使用这个产品是什么感觉？我们真正想传达什么？使用这个工具与其他工具有什么不同？我们如何在一个视觉上令人兴奋、感觉有趣、可穿戴、新鲜、前所未见、同时又有点俏皮的品牌中兑现这个承诺？同时如何让它显得足够精致，让人们信任它并信任我们的流程？我认为品牌的一个重大考验是：它是否感觉像你可以穿、人们会穿的东西。我们对所有周边产品的需求非常大，这太棒了。让产品真正兑现品牌承诺、体验和使用方式，将会非常令人兴奋。随着新闻和他们未来方向的发展，看到它如何演变也会很激动。所以，是的，很棒的合作伙伴，我们为他们感到兴奋。

Just a dash. This is not me. This is the team who made this. The team really worked to understand with a client like what does it feel like to interact with the product? What do we really want to communicate? What is the difference of using this tool compared to others? And how do we make that promise in a brand that's visually exciting, that feels fun and wearable and fresh and like something you haven't seen before, a little bit cheeky all at the same time? And how do you make it also feel sophisticated enough so people trust it and trust our process with it? I do think that a big test of a brand is does it feel like something you could wear and people would wear. We're getting so much demand for all of the swag, which is awesome. Being able to have that product really pay off the brand promise and the experience and how you use it is going to be really exciting. It's going to be exciting to see how it evolves as the news evolves with where they're going. So yeah, great partner to work with and we're stoked for them.

快速插播一条消息，然后我们再回来。我知道很多人和我一样在用 Jitter 做动画。我有个好消息：现在你可以直接在文件中分享和回复反馈，从而加快审阅速度。每条评论都有时间戳，并在画布和时间线上同步，始终在上下文中，你还可以 @ 提及他人，方便把合适的团队成员拉进对话。这只是我喜欢用 Jitter 做动画的又一个原因。评论功能现已正式对所有用户开放。你可以访问 dive.comclub/jitter 立即体验。另外，我最近在玩 Paper 做图像编辑，它真的很棒。它支持所有最好的模型，所有内容都存在于一个持久画布上，你可以看到生成历史，并轻松从旧想法中分叉。只需选择任何内容，输入提示词，生成变体。我最喜欢的一点是，你可以右键点击并将创作矢量化，无需使用单独的工具。这极大地释放了创造力，也是我对 Paper 作为下一个伟大设计工具感到兴奋的又一个原因。你现在就可以开始使用，访问 dive.com/paper 即可。好了，回到节目。你经常谈到意义的重要性。也许我们可以以 Windsurf 或其他客户项目为例深入探讨一下，因为我的目标是理解对你来说，将意义注入品牌或数字体验的核心意味着什么。

Real quick message and then we can jump back into it. I know a lot of you like me are animating in Jitter. So, I have some good news. You can now speed up reviews by sharing and responding to feedback directly inside of your files. Each comment is timestamped and also synced across the canvas and timeline so it's always in context and you can even at mention people so it's easy to bring the right teammates into the conversation. It's just another reason why I love animating in Jitter. Comments are officially live for everybody. So you can head to dive.comclub/jitter to check it out today. So I've been playing with paper for image editing and it's pretty legit. They support all of the best models and everything exists on a persistent canvas so you can see your generation history and easily fork from old ideas. Just select anything you want, type your prompt and generate variations. And one of my favorite parts is you can then right-click and vectorize that creation without having to use a separate tool. It's a huge unlock for creativity and just another reason why I'm so excited about paper as the next great design tool. You can start using it today. Just head to dive.com/paper. Okay, now on to the episode. You know, you talk a lot about the importance of meaning. So maybe we could go a little bit deeper either with Windsurf as example or other client projects because I think my goal is to understand what it means to you to inject meaning at the heart of a brand or digital experience.

我认为这正是我们很多人在寻找的，不是要煽情，但这就是我们追寻的东西，对吧？我把时间、注意力、金钱花在哪里？你的注意力确实等于金钱。它对我的生活有什么影响？是让我的生活变得有毒，还是变得更好？作为最终用户，你现在仍然可以决定这一点。因此，当我们设计品牌和产品时，它们需要为互动另一端的用户创造意义。所以，关键在于挖掘这些人的需求，而理解人们的需求确实需要练习如何做适量的研究，恰到好处，对吧？然后每天与用户互动，了解他们的具体用例，再想办法把这些模式提炼成人们会喜欢的体验。人们为什么会喜欢？你通过解决他们的痛点来创造意义。但归根结底，这只是一个简单的人性真理。为你的受众找到那个简单的人性真理，无论他们在哪里，无论他们是谁，这就是你创造意义的方式。但你不能就此止步。你必须不断对用户和受众的变化保持好奇，并实时与他们一起进化你的产品，因为如果你不这样做，你就会被甩在后面。

I think that's what a lot of us are, not to be emo, but that's what we're searching for, right? Where do I spend my time, my attention, my money? Your attention does equal money. And what does it do for my life? Does it make my life toxic or does it make my life better? And as an end user right now, you still get to decide that. Therefore, when we're designing brands and products, they need to make meaning for people on the other side of that interaction. So, it's really about tapping into what do these people need and understanding what people need is definitely an exercise in understanding how to properly do the right amount of research, just the right amount, right? And then interacting with people day to day to understand their specific use case and then figure out how do you take and pattern make that into something that's an experience people will love. How will people love it? You're developing meaning through hitting on something that solves their pain point. But at the end of the day, it's just a simple human truth. And finding that simple human truth for your audience, no matter where they are, no matter who they are, is how you make meaning. But you can't just rest on that. You have to constantly be curious about the way that those users and audiences are changing and evolve your product in real time with them because if you don't, you'll get left in the dust.

我喜欢这个说法。这种共同参与，尤其是在我觉得每次打开 Twitter 都会看到一个漂亮的品牌重新设计发布的世界里。

I love that. Like this co-articipation, especially in a world where I feel like every single time I open up Twitter, there's a beautiful brand redesign launching.

那么，你如何在那片美丽与精致的设计海洋中脱颖而出？

So, how do you stand out in that sea of beauty and polish?

是的，如今让人应接不暇，因为市面上有太多精湛的工艺和人才。而且你也会想审视一下，好吧，除了表面那层光鲜，背后真正创造价值的是什么？所以，拥有超级性感的视觉设计是一回事，但让整个体验从头到尾都兑现价值是另一回事，这就是形式与功能的讨论所在。你必须打动人心，让人感觉“我认同这个，我想看看它到底是什么”。视觉上要有共鸣，对吧？就像他们对我说的能引起共鸣，感觉他们懂我。但另一方面，还要真正兑现价值。在他们的脑海里，你是否交付了他们大脑会赋予你的价值？这就是头脑与心灵以及用户体验的挑战，我认为设计师非常擅长把握这一点。这也是为什么我现在对我们以及我们领域正在发生的事情感到非常兴奋，因为我们天生就理解这一点，并且始终是它的倡导者。这就是为什么我们赢得了在大型董事会中的一席之地，对吧？因为我们一直倡导深入挖掘用户深层次的需求，以便交付真正能为企业创造价值的东西。这两者并不总是直接一致，但当你找到那个结合点时，你最终就能实现产品市场契合。

Yeah, it's overwhelming these days because there's so much craft out there and talent. And also you kind of want to take a look at it and go, okay, well, what's beyond that superficial layer and what's happening in the background that really delivers the value? So, it's one thing to have like a super sexy visual design, but it's another to have the entire experience pay off end to end, whatever that is. And that's where the form and function conversation really comes in. You got to get people in the heart with like, okay, I identify with that. I want to see what this thing is about. Visually, that resonates, right? Like what they're saying to me resonates. Like they get me. But the other side is really paying off. Like in their head, are you delivering on the value that their brain is basically going to ascribe to you or not ascribe? And so it's the challenge of the head and the heart and user experience that I think designers are so incredible at tapping into. And that's why I'm super excited for us right now and what's happening in our space because we inherently understand that and we're champions of it all of the time. That's why we've earned a seat at the big ass boardrooms, right? It's because we have been championing getting deep down to that seat of deeply suited user needs to be able to deliver something that actually can drive value for a business. Those two aren't always directly aligned, but when you can find that, you can really hit and find at the end of the day that is product market fit.

“共鸣”这个词也一直让我印象深刻，因为我还在思考创造能与人们产生共鸣的东西的不同方式。我喜欢你直接跳到了用户体验，以及品牌及其旗下产品的整体图景，而不是仅仅关注身份识别。因为我认为，现在能让我产生共鸣的几乎相反的例子是，你看到太多网站上的创始人信，三段文字加一个签名，一开始觉得很酷，哇，他们在直接对我说话，但现在感觉廉价了。所以几乎需要找到一种新颖性，一种独特的方式来表达产品和品牌背后的人类真相。这对我来说正是挑战所在，也让我在看到新发布时感叹：“哇，他们抓住了某种东西，这里有些东西真的在对我说话。”而且，现在能打动你的，可能去年并不打动你。也许去年你沉迷于数字生活中的极简主义，放松自己，尽量多接触自然。而现在，人们只想再次找点乐子，你懂的，就是找乐子。比如你看 Windsurf 或 Suno，也许有人不喜欢那个配色，也许有人觉得我们在 A、B、C 方面做得太过，但你不能否认，看到它们你会想：“好吧，这看起来会很有趣。”其他时候，你必须完全收敛，不偏向趣味。也许需要更加克制和简朴，以提供合适的体验。但这又回到了那个问题：你要解决的深层需求是什么？如何从交互和视觉角度让它产生共鸣？

The word resonating is still sticking out to me too because I'm even thinking about the different ways that you can create something that resonates with people. And I like that you jumped right to the user experience and more of this holistic picture of what a brand is and the products underneath that umbrella than even something that is a little bit more identity focused because I think almost the opposite of what a representation that would resonate with me right now is like you know how you see too many of the like founder letters now on websites where it's like three paragraphs and then like the signatures below and it's like that was really cool in the beginning. It's like, wow, they're speaking directly to me. And now it's like it feels cheap. So there's almost a novelty that you have to find, like what's the unique way that we can express the underlying human truths behind this product and brand. And that to me is what makes it so challenging and what brings me to the point where when I see this new release, I'm like, "Wow, they tapped into something like there's something here that really speaks to me." And also, what's going to speak to you right now might not be what spoke to you last year. You know, maybe last year you were like into, I don't know, like minimalism in your digital life and kind of chilling out and trying to go touch grass as much as you could. And right now, people just want to have fun again, you know, just want to have fun. Like you look at a Windsurf or a Suno and you know, somebody maybe somebody doesn't like that color palette. Maybe somebody thinks we went too far with A, B, or C and how we executed the look and feel, but you cannot deny that you look at those and you're like, "Okay, that looks like I'm going to have some fun." There are other times where you have to totally pull back and not lean into fun. Maybe it's about being a lot more restrained and austere about it all for the right kind of experience. But that's again getting back to that like what is that deeply seated need that you're trying to address and how do you make that resonate from an interaction and visual perspective.

你们在 Metal Lab 有没有做什么来确保不被当下的潮流冲昏头脑，不会过度投入 Twitter 上那两三个月的“趣味”视觉表达？

Is there anything that you all are doing at Metal Lab to make sure that you don't get swept away with the trend du jour and going too far into what the visual expression of fun is for that you know two three month period on Twitter.

这个问题问得真好。我觉得团队自然而然就会这样做。我整天都为我的团队着迷。他们是自我调节的，比如在我们的 Slack 上，有人会发一个潮流，然后另一个人会发表尖锐评论，说“我受够了”，对吧？然后就会展开讨论，大家彼此友善地批评，但对作品要求严格。无论是外部作品还是我们自己的作品，这就像大多数人的自然肌肉。有些人比其他人更爱聊，包括我自己。但看到这种互动，意味着你能看到团队自我调节，共同培养品味，这真的很酷，因为集体一起提升技艺，同时有一些大嗓门——我不喜欢用“摇滚明星”之类的词——但我们的设计师，大家都敬仰的人，会参与进来，大家一起形成观点。所以，这很酷。

That's such a good question. I think that the teams naturally do that. Like um I'm a nerd for my team all day. They're self-regulating, which I mean like on our Slack, it's like here's this trend and somebody will post it, right? And then somebody will come in with a hot take and be like, I'm so over that, right? Like, oh, really? Tell me more. No, it's not this that's the great execution of it. It's that. And they'll just boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. and seeing that interaction and being super kind to each other about the critique but really hard on the work. Whether that's work on the outside or whether that's our work, it's just a natural muscle that most people have. And you know, some people are a lot more chatty than others, right? Myself included. But seeing that interaction kind of means like you can see the team self-regulating and developing a taste profile together which is really cool too because then it's like the collective is raising their craft together while there are some big voices and like you know a lot of our really I don't like using words like rockstar or whatever but like our designers who are like you know everybody looks up to chime in and like everybody's developing that POV be together. So, it's pretty cool.

从某种意义上说，推出一个人们已经厌倦的潮流，比推出一个本身就很糟糕的东西更能体现品味差，你知道吗？如果你显得在追逐潮流且稍微落后，就会让人觉得“哎呀，这已经过时了”。而且我觉得这些周期正在加速，对吧？混搭和汲取灵感变得如此容易，我们有了这个公共广场，一切都被分享，追逐潮流非常诱人，也很容易创造出很快就过时的东西。

In some ways, bad taste is more exemplified in putting out a trend that people are already tired of than putting out something that is actually just kind of bad, you know? It's like it if you come across as chasing and just a little bit behind, it's like, ah man, this this isn't it anymore, you know? And so, especially as I feel like these cycles are just accelerating, right? Like it's becoming so easy to remix and draw inspiration and we have this public town square where everything is shared and it's very tempting to chase trends and very very easy to create something that becomes outdated quickly.

你几乎可以问自己：我在乎吗？如果执行得好，并且符合你要传达的信息和设计原则，你在乎是否使用了潮流吗？我会说，如果执行得好，你很可能不在乎，只要它仍然能打动最终用户。但你也必须灵活，随时准备改变。如果你的品牌过于倾向某种潮流，而潮流发生了变化，比如环境在变，那么我认为，随着我们发展如此之快，品牌将变得更具生成性，而非像素完美。品牌必须打破那种整洁有序的 PDF 文档——过去那种非常昂贵——变成更可塑的东西，根据他们需要传达的信息和最终用户真正关心的事情来调整，同时保持核心身份。我认为最优秀的设计领导者必须始终走在这条线上，也应该如此。这就是为什么这份工作不容易。

You can almost be like well do I care? like if it's well executed and if it makes sense for what you're trying to communicate and the principles of the design, do you care if you used a trend? And I would say if well executed, you probably don't as long as it still, you know, hits with that end user. But you also have to be flexible and ready to change. If you do have a brand that leans far trend into something that shifts it, if for example the landscape is changing, you know, and I do think that with how fast we're moving right now, brands are going to become a lot more generative than pixel perfect. And brands are going to have to break out of that, you know, neatly tidily documented PDF that was very expensive, especially back in the day, to become something that is a lot more malleable based on what they need to communicate and what really matters for their end user while still keeping at the core of who they are. And I think that that the best design leaders have to walk that line all the time and should be. That's why the job isn't easy.

我们深入聊聊，Ven。从像素完美转向生成式设计，你认为这会如何改变设计的日常实践？

Let's go a little bit deeper there, Ven. So on this shift from pixel perfect to generative, what are some of the ways that you think that that evolves the regular practice of design?

如果你深耕设计领域，在 Twitter 和 X 上，你会看到人们四处分享自己的流程片段——什么有效、什么无效，好的、坏的、丑的，对吧？我们在 Metal Lab 也有很多这种“试水”的心态，这很有趣，因为它几乎像是 Dribbble 的新版本。“哦，你用这个做到了那个。让我展示我怎么用那个做到这个。”对吧？这种 camaraderie 让我觉得很有趣，同时也带点竞争，你知道，它会改变我们作为设计师的游戏规则。但这也关乎我们如何创造体验——不再是为了符合品牌而必须严格遵循那种 rigid 的设计系统。因为我们将开始看到的 AI 驱动体验的结果，必须以更流动的方式去适应。我不认为我们已经达到了那个点。我不认为设计社区已经理解了那意味着什么。很多讨论都在围绕“我们要跳出聊天界面”展开，对吧？所以问题是：哪种交互应用最有意义？聊天是自然语言，自然语言在当前技术发展水平下是有效的，但我的赌注是，我们会继续推动交互的边界，但不应仅仅因为“能做到”就去打破模式，而是要有理由，然后让它变得比我们今天的方式更自然。这是我们经常思考的事情，也总是挑战那些愿意和我们一起探索的客户。

If you're deep on design, Twitter and X, you're seeing people who are just sharing left and right parts of their process, what works, what doesn't is definitely a good, the bad, the ugly, right? And we have a lot of that sort of mentality of kicking the tires at Metal Lab, which is so fun to see because it's almost like a new school version of Dribble. Oh, you did that with this. Let me go show you how I did this with that. Right. And that's really fun to me to have that camaraderie, but also just like a little bit of like competition to see, you know, it will change our game as designers. But then it's also about like how are we creating experiences that are no longer about that rigid design system that had to be just so in order to conform to the brand. Because the results that we're going to start seeing that are coming out of these AI-driven experiences will have to accommodate that in a more fluid way. I don't think we've hit that yet. I don't think that the design community has hit what that means. A lot of conversations are happening around like right we're going to bust out of that chat interface, right? And so the question is like what's that application of the interaction that makes the most sense? Chat is natural language and so natural language is what is working right now for how the technology has advanced but you know my bet is that we're going to continue to push those boundaries of that interaction but it shouldn't be just because you can what is the reason that we're breaking these patterns and then how do it becomes something that feels even more natural than what we do today and how we interact today. So something we definitely think about a lot and always challenge the right client who's willing to go there with us.

是的。当所有技术都如此新颖时，存在一种追求新颖的压力。这在我们有史以来最新颖的技术和它的表现形式——聊天——之间形成了一种有趣的张力。聊天就像 AOL 即时通讯，那是我在互联网上长大的方式。你知道，我这辈子都在做这种交互。而且我确实觉得，作为行业，我们给了自己很大压力：“我们必须突破，必须突破。”但现在有了一点沉淀，人们开始觉得：“嗯，这其实还不错。很多方面确实合理。”所以突破的竞赛没那么激烈了，我感觉我们正在经历更多的 intentionality。

Yeah. There's like this pressure to be novel when all of the technology is so novel. Like it's a really interesting tension between the most novel technology that we've really ever had. And then the manifestation of that has just been chat which is like that was AOL Messenger was like how I was raised on the internet. You know I've been doing this interaction my entire life. And I do feel like as an industry, we put a lot of pressure on, well, we got to push past, we got to push past. And now there's been a little bit more of a settling where it's like, well, I this is kind of nice. A lot of ways this does make sense. And so there's less of a race to break out. And I feel like we're experiencing a little bit more intentionality.

归根结底，我们是视觉动物，你知道吧？所以，是的，你想挑战这一点。比如我团队里的一位设计师，她的设计真的获得了专利，我当时想，向你致敬，作为设计师。那真是——我不能告诉你具体是什么——但那是你职业生涯中一件了不起的事。你值得。你想出了这种交互和展示 X Y Z 的方式。太棒了。我希望你花点时间庆祝一下，那确实是真正的新颖。所以我认为我们在寻找下一个东西，你知道，尽管我们可能吐槽 Tinder 的滑动，但我们仍在寻找下一个交互是什么。

We're such visual creatures at the end of the day, you know? So it's kind of like, yeah, you want to challenge that. Like one of the designers on my team literally had her design patented and I was like hats off to you as a designer. That is and I can't tell you what but like that is an amazing thing to have done in your career. You deserve this. You came up with this interaction and this way to display X Y and Z. Amazing on you. Like I was like I hope you sit in that for a minute and celebrate that is truly novel. And so I think we're looking for that next thing, you know, and for as much as we might bag on the Tinder swipe, like we're still searching what for what that next interaction is.

完全同意。

Totally.

你知道，对于用户体验来说，它会变成像第二天性一样的东西，你的肌肉记忆已经学会并知道如何交互。所以这也很有趣，对吧？我认为对很多人来说，这关乎追逐下一个东西，那是我们在这份工作中找到目标和意义的一部分，我觉得这没问题——知道这个过程的一部分是可能尝试、失败，并不总能成功，但当你成功时，感觉太棒了。这就是为什么我认为很多人留在设计领域，即使现在对设计来说是一个很奇怪的时期。

You know, for user experience that becomes something that becomes like second nature and like your muscle memory already learns it and knows how to interact. So it's also fun, right? Like I think it is about chasing the next thing for a lot of us and that is part of how we find purpose and meaning in doing this work and I think that that's okay like knowing that part of that process is to potentially try fail not always hit it but when you do it feels amazing. Like that's why I think a lot of people stay in design even though it's a really weird time for design.

哦，是的。我的意思是，如果我们只是组装那些我们知道永远有效的模式，我早就退出了。你知道，这就是为什么我在很多方面对 AI 心存感激，因为它确实带来了很多新要求。甚至节目中讨论过的一个话题，我最近一直在反思：我们思考加载状态的方式现在完全不同了。在 AI 世界里，存在一定程度的延迟，需要一些创造力，而且你甚至不知道页面会加载多少内容。这虽然是设计的一个小部分，但即使在这个小小的领域里，也有无限的创新和新模式的机会。所以我认为你说得对，最好的设计师是那些至少尝试突破已知惯例的人，如果你退回到有效的方法，那完全没问题。但天哪，我不想一辈子只从整个职业生涯中一直使用的相同模式里提取东西。

Oh yeah. I mean, if we were just assembling patterns that we know work forever and ever, I would be out. You know, that's why I'm so grateful for AI in many ways because it does introduce a lot of new requirements. Even something that's come up on the show that I've been reflecting on recently is like the way we think about loading states is totally different now. Totally different in an AI world where there is a level of latency that requires some creativity and you know you don't know how much you're even going to load into the page and it's like okay that's a small subset of design but there's endless opportunity for innovation and new patterns even within that tiny little bucket and so I think you're right like the best designers are the ones that are going to at least try to push past the known conventions and if you do fall back to what works great that's totally fine But man, I I I don't want to live the life of of someone who is just pulling from all of the same patterns at all times that I've been using my entire career.

完全同意。这就像我们流程中“AI 帮我们洗衣服”的想法，对吧？我进入这个领域不是为了搬运东西。我不是说那些热爱像素和生产设计的人不好——那很棒，我们仍然非常需要，对吧？它仍然是必需的。但能够使用 AI 这样的工具来加速流程、提高效率，甚至希望有一天当它足够好时，能更干净、更贴合需要交付的规范，对吧？这一切让我喜欢的是，它理论上为创造力打开了更多空间。这就是在工作流中使用 AI 的真正酷之处，以及它将如何改变我们未来的工作流。那么，如果我有这些额外的创意时间，我会用它做什么？我会痴迷于那个加载状态。我会坐在那里思考：这个品牌是什么？它想向用户传达什么？我如何教育用户？我如何在后台增加透明度，让用户了解情况，从而信任他们即将看到的结果？即使只是那一个状态，也有太多可以影响的地方，我认为我们甚至还没有真正触及。所以同意。

Totally. It is the idea like in our process of like AI doing our laundry, right? Like we I I didn't get into this field to push stuff around. Like I'm not saying that like people who love that and love like pushing pixels and production design like that's amazing and we still very much need it, right? Like it's still a needed thing, but it's being able to use a tool like AI to help that process along faster and making it more efficient and even like you know hopefully someday when it gets good enough like cleaner and tighter to the spec that needs to be shipped, right? The thing about all of this that I love is it opens up more space for creativity hypothetically. And that's what's really cool about using AI in your workflow and how it's going to change our workflow in the future. So then it's like, okay, well, if I've got this extra creative time, what am I going to do with it? I am going to obsess about that load state. I'm going to sit there and think about what is this brand, what is it trying to say to users? How do I educate people? How do I add transparency in the background for what's going on so that people are informed and so that they trust the results that they're about to see? There's so much even in that one state that can be impacted in a way that we haven't even, I think, cracked into. So agreed.

为什么不呢？如果你有那样的心境，你可以为人们建造一个全新的世界。

Why not? Like it's a whole new world you can build for people if you've got that kind of headspace.

我想深入聊聊“全新世界”这部分。也许首先我想了解一下你们的工作方式，因为你之前提到你们在 AI 的不同应用上做了很多探索。

I want to get into the whole new world piece. Maybe first I kind of want to drill into how you all are working because something that you mentioned earlier to me was how you were doing a lot of explorations around different applications of AI.

那么，你能分享一些经验，或者你用过的不同方式或工作流程，来推动 AI 的进展吗？很多人还在摸索生成式 AI 的样子。你知道，我看到有些人用发散式视觉设计做了很酷的东西。就是尽可能走远，甚至让客户感到不安，因为你可以更快到达那里。通常，作为设计师，我们喜欢“三法则”。我们通常展示三个方向，然后逐渐缩减到一个。也许你可以尝试 10 个方向，然后在内部自我编辑，再展示那三个优胜方案，而不是把时间花在那三个上。

So are there any learnings that you're able to share there or different ways or workflows that you've used to move the needle with AI? A lot of people are kind of getting their paces of what it looks like from like a generative perspective. You know, I've seen some people do some really cool stuff with like divergent visual design. So, really like going as far as you can even as far as to make your client uncomfortable far of like could it be because you can get there so much faster. And so where you know usually it's like we're designers we like rules of threes. We usually present three directions that we start to whittle down into one. Maybe you're you're trying on the size of 10 directions and then you self-edit internally before you show those three winners instead of spending your time on the three.

我们得对此非常小心吗？百分之百。你必须对得到的输出非常挑剔。如果没有一个懂提示词、懂编辑的人掌舵，你就会得到一堆垃圾，因为模型是基于整个互联网训练的，说实话。所以你会看到质量和创造力彻底瓦解，变成一个大而无当的东西。所以你要做的是，弄清楚如何利用这些工具，让你真正塑造出非常有主见的东西。所以那些还是早期阶段。但后来执行也变得很有趣。我们如何把 NCP 连接到 Storybook，让设计系统运行得更快？这个动画我搞不定，所以我去问 Claude。我们的团队在流程中融入了很多这样的方式。但有趣的是，今天我和团队聊到这个，我们有流程，但有时人们会说“天哪，感觉像无政府状态，Metalab 没有流程”，这有很多原因。但我很反感说“这就是流程，这样绝对正确”，我觉得这很傻。我认为世界上最好的设计师在 Metalab 工作，他们应该能自己决定用什么工具、什么时候用。但我们也必须确保在某个方法有效时大声说出来，因为我们可能同时运行 20 个项目，如果项目 A 不和项目 Z 交流，他们不知道那个方法有效。所以人们分享工作、从中学习，然后建立联系，让那些真正有效的方法发挥作用，这非常重要。因为互联网上有很多噪音，但如果你能通过一群你信任的人过滤掉噪音，我认为你可以更快地前进。这就是我现在看到的，我们在流程中使用 AI 的方式。

Now, do we have to be really careful with that? A thousand%. Like you've got to be so critical about the outputs that you're getting. And if you don't have somebody at the helm who knows how to prompt and who knows how to edit like hell, then you're going to just get like crap on crap because that's what I mean the models are trained off of the entire internet like let's be honest. And so you're going to get that like absolute like dissolution of quality and creativity into something that's a big nothing burner. And so what you have to do is figure out how do we use these tools to get you into that way where you can really shape it towards something that's super opinionated. So those are like early days. But then there's even execution that's been really fun. How do we hook up NCP to story book and like have our design systems function so much faster? I'm not quite getting this animation right, so let me go talk to Claude about it. There's so many ways that are sprinkled into the process that our team is using. But it's funny like was talking with my team today about this but we've got processes but sometimes people will be like oh my gosh sometimes it feels like anarchy like there's no process at metalab there's a lot of reasons why that might feel that way but I am allergic to saying like this is the process and this is so right like that's silly to me I think that some of the best designers in the world work at metal lab and they should be able to define what they want to use and when but also we got to really make sure that we're shouting out when something's working because we might run any you know 20 projects at any given time or whatever and if project A isn't talking to project Z they don't know that that's working well so that's the big importance of people sharing their work learning from it and then people making those connections to where those things are really hitting and working that's so important because I'll also say there's so much out there on the internet that it's like a lot of noise but if you can filter down the noise with like a bunch of people you trust. I think you can move a lot faster, which is like that's what I'm seeing right now in the way that we're working with AI in our process.

我的意思是，如果你在 AI 的 S 曲线这个阶段试图将工作流程规范化，你也会失败。你知道，一切都太疯狂了。有无数种方法可以第一次做事情。这甚至有点回到你之前说的，你把 Twitter 比作新的 Dribbble，这完全正确，但有一个不同的元素：不仅对最终输出有好奇心，还对“你是怎么做到的”有好奇心。你知道，有人会发布一个作品，评论里全是“你用了什么工具？”我们已经很久没有持续问这个问题了。你知道，仅此一点就让设计师的时光非常有趣。这份工作我最喜欢的一点，虽然很老套，但就是你能交到网友。就像我认识你一样。我们是网友，但突然间我们开始谈论真正重要的事情，那些会改变我们设计师生活的事情。

I mean, if you try to codify workflows at this point in the S-curve of AI, like you're just you're going to fail, too. You know, it's everything is so crazy. There's a million ways to do things for the first time. It even kind of goes back to what you were saying before where you talked about Twitter as the new Dribbble, which is totally true, but there is this different element where there's not just a curiosity in the end output. There's a curiosity in, well, how'd you get there? You know, someone will post an artifact and in the comments will all be like, "What tools did you use?" It's been so long since we asked that question continuously. You know, like even that alone is a really fun time to be a designer. One of my favorite parts about this job, it's so corny, but it's like you make internet friends. Like that's how I met you. Like we're internet friends, but then all of a sudden we're talking about things that like really matter that like will change our lives as designers.

当你找到合适的一群人，甚至一个人，它真的能开阔你的思维，激励你解决下一个重大设计问题。我认为这对我们缓解倦怠非常重要，因为拥有这种共享的社区感，至少对我认识的大多数设计师来说，在困难时期至关重要。

And when you find that right group of people or one person even, it can really open your mind and inspire you towards your next big design problem. And I think that's so important in what we do to mitigate burnout because having that shared community aspect of this all is at least for the majority of designers I know critical when the going.

好的，那我们聊聊 Metalab 的设计社区吧，因为你提到了用 AI 进行发散性探索。我觉得我们可能只是触及了皮毛，但对我来说，未来 AI 在设计中最明显的用途可能就是能够做出一个东西。我也在概念谱系上操作。所以，我不知道，也许将来我可以说，拿这个设计，这是我的谱系。我标记两端，然后我想要谱系上的五个点。现在我要 50 个点，你知道吗？所以对我来说，谁知道实践会是什么样子，但它一定会成为现实，对吧？我们将能够用 AI 大规模迭代，在那个世界里，尤其是当输出有时可能很平庸时，谈论品味的重要性虽然老套但依然正确。那么，作为设计领导者，你如何看待投资 Metalab 设计团队集体品味的不同方式？

Okay. So then let's talk about like the community of design at Metalab then for a second because you talked about using AI for divergent exploration. I think we're probably barely scratching the surface of it, but it feels to me like potentially the most obvious use of AI for design in the future is just being able to make a thing. I also operate kind of on spectrums of concepts. And so, I don't know, maybe in the future I could say, take this one design and now here's my spectrum. I'm going to label my opposite ends and now I want five on that spectrum. Now I want 50 on that spectrum, you know? So it's like to me who knows what that's going to look like in practice but it's going to be a thing right like we are going to be able to iterate at scale with AI and in that world especially when the output might just be meh sometimes it's very cliche but still true to talk about the importance of taste in that world. So maybe as you as a design leader, how do you think about the different ways that you want to invest in this collective taste profile of the design group at Metalab?

你用的“投资”这个词非常好，因为它意味着把钱和时间投入到事情上，让人们能够发展，对吧？人才发展对设计师来说非常重要，因为我认为这实际上是让许多设计师在工作中更快乐的原因，因为他们觉得自己还在学习。他们还在精进手艺。他们还在推动自己认为不可能的事情。所以，这需要确保有钱去试用新工具，或者参加你想要的培训，比如去弄清楚如何充分利用 Ry。你知道，你关于流程和执行方式可选性的观点有很多，所以要为此提供时间和空间。所以我们非常明确地做的一件事是，给人们放假来做这些事情，比如这是你休假套餐的一部分，但周五你也可以做这些事，这总是能让工作变得更好。我能量化它的投资回报率吗？不能。

Invest is a really great word that you use because it means putting money towards and time towards things so that people can develop, right? And talent development is so important for designers because I think it's what actually keeps a lot of designers happier in their job because they feel like they're still learning. They're still pushing their craft. They're still pushing things that they didn't think were possible. And so that is about making sure that there's money to go kick the tires in the new tool if you want or a training you want to do if you want to go figure out how to make the most of Ry as an example. you know there's so much to your point around the process and optionality of how you execute things and so giving time and space for that. So one thing that we do very um decidedly is we give people time off for those types of days like it's part of your time off package but you have Fridays to be able to do that too and it always makes the work better. Can I quantify an ROI on that? No.

虽然我不愿意，但我可以量化设计的价值。当我们这样做并投资（借用你的话）学习新工具和提升技能时，总会对设计的价值和我们创造的东西产生影响。

When I don't want to, but I can quantify the value of design. And when we do that and invest, using your word, in learning new tools and developing our skill sets, there's always an impact to the value of design and the things that we make.

我知道答案比这更微妙，但你确实把它引向了尝试新工具和工作流程的方向，这也正是我回答的核心。我不知道，每隔一段时间我会自我检查：我是不是对这件事太执着了？但天哪，我始终认为对工具的好奇心是个人能做的最佳投资之一，即使不是最好的。也许你的工作没有政策为你创造空间，但能够争取空间去尝试新事物就很棒。你提到了动力，还有 15 种其他工具，感觉可能性与我们的舒适基线之间的差距正在加速扩大。我不知道。我希望人们不要被落下。

I know that the answer is more nuanced than this, but you did kind of take it into this tinkering and trying new tools and workflows direction, which kind of is at the heart of my answer too. And I don't know, every once in a while I kind of get a pulse check of like, am I going too hard on this one thing? But man, I just keep coming back to curiosity in the tools as one of, if not the best investment you can make as an individual. And maybe there isn't some policy at your job that's creating space for you, but gosh, being able to fight for space to just try new things. You mentioned drive, there are 15 other tools and it feels like this gap is kind of accelerating between what is possible and what is kind of the table stakes and baseline of where we're comfortable. I don't know. I hope people don't get left behind. I guess.

如果用一个大家可能都熟悉的事情来类比，比如你学第一个软件的时候，不管是什么。顺便说一句，我一直是 Illustrator 派，不是 Photoshop，因为我痴迷于设计应用时矢量控制带来的掌控感。所以也许我们需要做件 T 恤，但这会暴露年龄，就这样吧。我记得学这两个工具时，既感到不知所措，又深受启发。每当我发现一个意外惊喜或一个快捷键做了我不知道的事，就像打开了新的可能性，尽管同时我也被这一切压得喘不过气。也许你不是在 Photoshop 和 Illustrator 上学的，嗨，小朋友们，对吧？但如果你是在 Sketch 或 Figma 上学的，你也有学习曲线。如果你还在做设计并自称设计师，你很可能已经克服了那个曲线。我认为这同样适用于今天的 AI 工具。这只是过程中的又一步，这样你就不会落后，因为我们的生活和工作中有很多可以控制，也有很多无法控制。那么，我们是接受无法控制的事情并与之共处吗？对我来说，使用 AI 工具，你可以攻击我，但这是我们现在工作的一部分，而且会持续下去。所以我喜欢掌控自己更多命运的想法，拿起它，即使失败也要继续尝试，然后你会被自己创造的东西所启发。

If I were to liken it to something that maybe most of us know, like remember when you were learning your first piece of software, whatever that was, right? Like I was always team Illustrator, not Photoshop, by the way, for a very reason because I was obsessed with the vector-based control that I could have when designing apps, right? So there's that which maybe we need to have t-shirts made or something, but then it's going to show our age and so there we go. I remember when I was learning both of those tools, I was so overwhelmed by it, but also so inspired. And also, whenever I found like this happy accident or I found a quick key that did something that I didn't know about or whatever, it was like this huge unlock of possibility again, even though you were holding space with the fact that you're also overwhelmed by it all. And I think that maybe you didn't learn on Photoshop and Illustrator, hello fellow kids, right? But like if you did learn, if you were learning on Sketch or you were learning on Figma, you had a learning curve there too. And if you're still in design and still calling yourself a designer, you probably got through that curve. And I think about that same thing applied to AI tools today. It's just another step in that process so that you don't get left behind because there's a lot that we can control in our lives and our careers and then there's some things that we can't. So like, do we want to accept the things that we can't control but work with them? And working with AI tools for me is like, you know, you can come at me I guess, but like this is part of our jobs now and will continue to be. So I like the idea of owning a little bit more of your own destiny and picking it up and even if you fail, you got to keep trying and then you'll be inspired by something you make.

掌控自己的命运，这个说法真好。

Owning your own destiny is a really good phrase.

嗯。

Mhm.

我认为这是我一直在努力向世界传达的东西，因为有些人天生就受到启发。也许他们在更前瞻的公司工作，有像你这样的设计领导推动他们探索和尝试。很好，对吧？打勾。他们会没事的。还有人是出于绝望而探索。事实上，现在可能有人在听，他们可能处于工作间隙，还在面试，感到压力。你有时间，同时觉得天哪，我必须领先。很好。你很可能也会没事。我担心的是那些在岗位上没有被推动、感觉相当传统且非常舒适的人，你知道吗？

And I think that that is something that I have been trying to put out into the world more and more, I guess, because I think there are people who are naturally inspired. Maybe they work at more forward-looking companies. They have someone like you as a design leader who's really pushing them to explore and tinker. Great, right? Check box. Like they're going to be okay. Then there's also people who maybe are exploring out of desperation. The fact is there's probably people listening to this right now that maybe they're in between jobs, they're still doing interviews and you feel this pressure. You have time and also it's like my gosh, I got to get ahead kind of thing. Great. You're probably going to be okay. I worry for the people that are in roles that aren't pushing them that feel quite legacy and they're very comfortable, you know?

是的。

Yeah.

这就是我的担忧。我们还在第一局，对吧？所以我说的那个差距正在加速。两年后那个差距会是什么样子？一边是一群热衷于使用和实验新技术的人，另一边是那些从未被推动、也从未需要被推动的人，也许他们正在做的事情已经走到尽头，然后呢？你知道吗，我觉得我工作的一部分就是为那些人敲响警钟。谢谢你和我分享这些，因为你刚才说的话承担了巨大的责任。你为很多人负责，我认为这很高尚、很棒，如果你不能让人变得更好，为什么要创造东西呢？但我只是觉得，首先，你这样做非常酷……

That's my concern. We're still in the first inning, right? So, like that gap I was talking about, it's accelerating. What the heck does that gap look like two years from now where you have a group of people that are really gung-ho about making use and experimenting with this new tech and then you have people who they never got pushed and they never needed to get pushed and maybe what they were doing has come to an end and now what? You know, I feel like part of my job now is just like banging the drum for those people. Thanks for sharing that with me because you take on a hell of a lot of responsibility in what you just said. Like you're taking responsibility for a lot of humans which I think is noble and amazing and why create a thing if you're not making people better. But I just think that first of all that's very cool that you...

你不能拥有一个平台却不说，你知道吗，就像我一开始并没有打算谈论 AI。我甚至没想过 AI。然后我想，哦，我会做几期 AI 节目。然后我想，该死，这正在改变世界。

You can't have a platform and not say, you know, it's like I didn't set out to talk about AI when I started this. I didn't even think about AI. And then I was like, oh, I'll do a few AI episodes. And then I was like, shoot, this is changing the world.

现在我想，我无法思考其他事情，只想着五年后的世界会多么不同，我们谈论得多么少，很多人多么 unprepared。我想，希望我不会变得烦人，但我们会谈论这个，你知道吗？

And now I'm like, I can't think about anything other than 5 years in the future and how different the world looks and how little we're talking about it and how unprepared a lot of people are. And I'm like, I hope I'm not getting annoying, but we're going to talk about this, you know?

完全同意。而且你可能会因此失去一些听众，因为他们已经听腻了。但那些在听的人，尤其是真正信任你的人，会接受你的建议并自己想办法。但我学到的一件事，我老板对我说过，因为有时这对我们很多人来说就像内部行话，对吧？他说：“每个人都在自己的旅程中理解 AI 将如何影响他们。”你知道，因为我在这里，我们在使用它、构建它，现在对我来说和我们的团队来说它更自然一些，但我们需要考虑采用曲线。采用曲线的各个阶段都有很棒的人。你也能理解为什么落后者处于他们的位置。昨晚我向几个青少年解释，我以为那是我儿子朋友的生日。他们可能觉得我难以忍受，但他们……

Totally. Well, and you might lose some listeners for that reason 'cause they're over it. But the people who are listening, you know, especially the ones who really trust you are going to take your advice and like figure it out for themselves. But the one thing that I learned, my boss said to me, because sometimes this can feel like really inside baseball for a lot of us, right? He's like, "Everybody's on their own journey about understanding how AI is going to impact them." And you know, it's because like I'm all kind of out here and we're using it and we're building it and it's a little bit more second nature for me right now and in our teams, but there is the adoption curve that we really need to think about. And there's amazing people on all sides of the adoption curve. And you can also understand why the laggards are where they are. I was nerding out and explaining to some teenagers last night, which I thought that it was like a my son's friend's birthday. They probably thought I was insufferable, but they were...

你就是那个“小朋友”。

You are the fellow kid.

哦，天哪。就像我们在谈论 AI，我说：“你们听说过 lites 吗？”然后我说：“嗯，在文艺复兴时期，等等等等。”他们就说：“哦，天哪，妈妈，快走吧。”

Oh man. Like we were talking about AI and I was like, "Have you guys heard of the lites?" And I was like, "Well, back in the Renaissance days, blah, blah, blah." And they was like, "Oh my god, mom, get out of here."

敷衍过去。

Gloss over.

是的。但其中几个真的很感兴趣，对吧？其中一个想成为电影制作人，思考在 AI 参与的过程中，她的生活会是什么样子。但她想知道这是什么，对我意味着什么？对我的工作流程可能意味着什么？

Yeah. But a couple of them were really interested in it, right? One of them wants to be a filmmaker and think about like what her life is going to be like trying to become a filmmaker with AI in the process. But she wants to know what is it and what does it mean for me? What it might mean for my workflow.

但她仍然会是一个创造者。无论以何种方式，她都会是一个制造者。谁知道几年后她上大学时会是什么样子，但她一定能掀起波澜，因为她对一切都充满好奇。

She's still going to be a creator though. She's still going to be a maker in whatever way. Who knows what it's going to look like when she gets to college in a few years, but she's going to be able to really make waves because she's curious about it all.

这种好奇心就是一切，对吧？有趣的是，你给青少年讲 AI 领域。我当时在教堂做停车引导员，志愿参加停车团队，和一个 22 岁刚毕业的孩子一起工作。他是个金融分析师，我不记得他是否问了相关的问题，但我就是忍不住对这个孩子滔滔不绝地讲 AI。我忍不住和那些处于职业生涯早期、刚毕业的人聊天，试图鼓励他们、让他们兴奋，因为这简直是史上最伟大的公平竞争环境，你知道吗？我做这行很久了——我不想透露年龄——但确实很久了，对吧？我设计产品已经很多年了。所有这些工具对我来说和那个刚出校门的 21 岁年轻人一样新鲜。我并没有被赋予什么特权。是的，也许我在 Twitter 上朋友更多，但我仍然需要自己弄清楚这一切意味着什么。我们过去常开玩笑说那些适应样式、自动布局和 Figma 比较慢的设计师。现在那点差距简直微不足道，你知道吗？我们突然面对的跃迁是：如果你有好奇心，你就和我一样有资格迈出这一步。

And that curiosity is everything, right? It's funny. You were given the AI field to your teenagers. I was doing parking at my church. I was volunteering on the parking team and I'm working with this kid who's 22 years old, just graduated. He's a financial analyst and I don't remember if he even asked a relevant question, but sure enough, I'm here just rambling at this kid about AI. And I can't help but talk to people who especially are in like the earlier career recent grads and try to get them encouraged and excited because it's like this is the greatest leveling of the playing field of all time, you know? Like I've been doing this, I'm not going to date myself, but like a long time, right? Like I've been designing products for a long time. All of these tools are just as new for me as they are for the 21-year-old fresh out of school. And there's nothing that I'm being handed really. Yeah, maybe I have more Twitter friends, but I still got to figure all this out and what this means. And we used to joke about the designers who, you know, maybe were a little bit slower to adapt styles and auto layout and Figma. And that just feels like a little it's so minuscule now, you know, like the jump that we're at all of a sudden is like if you're curious, you are just as qualified to make the jump as I am.

我忘了是谁说的，但请让我们感谢这个人，这就像高能动性英雄之歌。比如“试试看，发现结果”，别死掉。比如创始人模式，还有什么呢？

And I forget who it was, but let's please credit this person, but it was like the song of the high agency hero. Like around and find out, don't die. Like founder mode, what else, you know?

那是我一直以来最喜欢的推文之一，因为有很多版本，你知道吗？

That's one of my favorite tweets of all time because there's so many versions of that, you know?

是的。我们身处这样一个世界，我们在说：“好吧，你为什么不试试看呢？”但也许我们不应该快速行动、打破常规。也许我们在塑造自己想要生活的世界时，应该更有意图、更谨慎地对待我们正在构建和制造的东西。这是我非常关心的一件事：确保你必须思考你所创造和设计的东西的影响，以及它们如何影响社会，对吧？你可以不谈它，也可以把它摆到桌面上说：让我们设计一个我们想要生活的世界，那会是什么样子？这对每个人来说都不同。现在我们进入了伦理领域。我不会成为伦理学教授，我会做得很糟糕。但我要说的是，我们的设计决策比以往任何时候都重要。所以，真正深思熟虑地思考如何做出最自信的设计决策，从而创造一个更美好的世界，是我整天都在思考的一部分。

Yeah. And we're in this world where we're saying like, "Okay, why don't you around and find out?" But like maybe we don't move fast and break things. Maybe we be a little more intentional and careful about what we're building and making while we shape this world that we want to live in. And that's like a big thing that I care about is making sure that like you got to think about the implications of the things that you're making and designing and how they impact society, right? And it just is like you can not talk about it or you can put it on the table and just say like let's design a world we want to live in and what does that look like? And it's different for everybody. And now we get into ethics. And I'm not going to become an ethics professor. I would do a terrible job at that. But what I will say is it's like our design decisions matter more than ever. And so really getting thoughtful about how we make the most confident design decisions that make a better world is part of what I think about all day long.

你认为这里有什么利害关系？如果你放大到全局，我们正在设计这个 AI 未来。利害关系是什么？

What do you think's at stake here? Like if you zoom out big picture, we're designing this AI future. What are the stakes?

利害关系很大。对创意人士来说非常大，对普通工作者来说也非常大。当你想到科幻小说中看到的多种潜在未来版本时，很多都在变成现实。所以你需要问自己：你想生活在《她》那样的未来版本吗？你想生活在《蠢蛋进化论》里吗？虽然这些艺术作品是为了表达观点，你可能会翻白眼，觉得我们永远不会变成《蠢蛋进化论》，但如果你愿意倾听，那里有一个信息。那么我们如何将那个信息提炼成我们今天在体验中做出的决策？我们的世界现在由数字体验驱动。当然，在现实生活中，我希望它们会改变游戏规则。所以我认为未来有很多不同的版本。我对此很痴迷，但这只是因为我不知道答案。我想，伙计，这就像蝴蝶效应的情况。你明白我的意思吗？就像阿什顿·库彻的《蝴蝶效应》。有太多可能改变。所以你所能做的就是思考：我如何让自己和我关心的人扎根于当下，利用每天拥有的信息做出最好的决策，让自己成为那种人们愿意与之合作、愿意亲近作为朋友、一起穿越这片泥沼的人，因为现在很多事情都是一团糟。

The stakes are high. They're really high for creative people. They're really high for an everyday worker. When you think about the multiple versions of potential futures that you see in science fiction, a lot of those things are coming true. So you need to ask yourself, do you want to live in a her-like version of the future? Do you want to live in an idiocracy? And while like this art is made to express a point of view and you may roll your eyes and like we'll never get to idiocracy, but there is a message there if you're willing to listen to it. And so how do we distill that message down to decisions that we make today in the experiences that we make? Our world is now driven by digital experiences. And of course IRL I hope they will change the game. And so I think that there's so many different multiple versions of the future. And I nerd out on this but it's only because I don't know the answer. I'm like, dude, this is like a butterfly effect situation. You know what I mean? Like Ashton Kutcher, the butterfly effect. I have so much could change. So all you can do is think about like how do I root myself and the people I care about in the present and make the best decisions with the information I have day to day to feel like I'm the type of person who people want to work with, who people want to have close to them as a friend and work through this like muck together because a lot of it is chaos right now.

我是说，你说得对。这可能有一百万种样子。确实感觉在所有版本中，数字体验的普及程度甚至更高了。在一个 AI 实际上正在吞噬越来越多软件创建体验的世界里，你认为设计师要如何保持人性化触感？

I mean, you're right. There's a million versions of what this could look like. It does feel like there is this even increased prevalence of digital experiences in all versions. And in a world where AI is realistically swallowing more and more of the software creation experience, what do you think it's going to look like for designers to maintain the human touch?

想想乔纳森·艾夫最近在 Straight Sessions 上谈到的。他谈到一根线缆是如何设计的。那种真正的用心：哇，有人真的深思熟虑过。有人真的花了时间和精力去思考什么是最好的版本，你知道吗？我认为这是一种看待设计和产品设计的很酷的方式。这仍然触及我之前谈到的东西，那就是一个简单的人性真相。比如 iPhone 用户，购买 iPhone 的人想要高端体验。他们想感觉自己做了正确的决定。即使是开箱的那一刻，即使是那根线缆编织的方式，带着那种淡淡的金色纤维，在新版本中，有人考虑过它，有人把关怀和意图投入其中。所以，我的钱花得值。你把这个想法延伸：我要在这些体验中构建意义。这需要理解人们想要什么，他们需要什么，有时这两者可能对立，然后设计一个最终能交付这些的体验。最难的部分是触及那个人性真相。我认为执行更容易，只要你有一个出色的团队，但更难的是：什么才是真正重要的东西。

Think about what Johnny Ive was talking about recently in the Straight Sessions. It's talking about like how a cord was designed. Taking that real intentionality of like, wow, somebody really thought through this. Somebody really put the time and the effort to think about what is the best version of what this could be, you know? And that I think is a really cool way to look at design and product design. That's still tapping into that thing I talked about before, which is like a simple human truth. Like iPhone users, people who purchase iPhones want a high-end experience. They want to feel like they made the right decision. Even that unboxing moment, even the way that that cord is braided just so with that lightly golden, you know, fiber or whatever that's in the newer version, somebody thought about that and somebody put the care and intention into that. So, my money was well spent. You take that idea of like, I'm going to build meaning into those experiences. It's understanding what people want, what do they need, sometimes those two can be in opposition, but then designing an experience that ultimately delivers that. And the hardest part is getting to that human truth though. I think the execution is easier as long as you've got an amazing team but the harder part is like what's the thing that truly matters.

我坚信视频的力量，可以用它来解释我作为设计师的想法。所以当需要给出反馈时，我会在 Slack 里丢一个 Loom 链接，再丢一个 Figma 原型链接，然后反馈就会散落得到处都是，我的意思是那简直一团糟。所以，我正在构建我一直希望存在的产品，它叫 Inflight。你可以把它想象成一个异步设计评审工具。

I'm a big believer in the power of video to explain my thinking as a designer. So when it's time to give feedback, I'll drop a Loom link in Slack and another link to a Figma prototype and then feedback will be scattered everywhere and I mean it's a mess. So, I'm building the product that I've always wanted to exist, and it's called Inflight. You can kind of think of it like an Async Crit.

这是一种简单的方式，可以分享视频演示以及交互式原型或你设计的任何内容，然后 AI 会采访你团队中的人，获取你需要的反馈，并将所有内容整理到一个漂亮的洞察页面中。所以，目前我只向 Dive Club 的听众开放访问权限。如果你想成为首批使用 Inflight 的人，请访问 dive.club/inflight 抢占名额。

It's an easy way to share a video walkthrough along with an interactive prototype or whatever you're designing, and then AI interviews the people on your team to get you the feedback that you need and organizes everything for you in a beautiful insights page. So, right now, I'm only giving access to Dive Club listeners. So, if you want to be one of the first to use Inflight, head to dive.club/inflight to claim your spot.

你之前提到过“恰到好处的研究”，几乎暗示研究可能过度。所以我想把这一点拉回对话中，因为你再次提到了挖掘人性真相的过程。我们能具体谈谈吗？比如，你们在与客户合作时，有没有什么实用的框架、流程或方法，能帮助你和客户共同找到那些应该置于核心的底层真相？

You said something earlier that I'm now going to return back to where you talked about just the right amount of research, almost implying that you can overresearch something. So, maybe I'm going to pull that back into the conversation as you're bringing up this process of getting at the human truth again. And can we just get really specific? Like are there practical frameworks or processes or things that you all are doing when you're maybe even interfacing with clients to help you and them arrive at what are these underlying truths that we should put at the heart of everything.

这个术语不是我创造的，我想说清楚。有一位比我经验丰富得多的人创造了这个词，她叫 Erika Hall，为 A Book Apart 写过书，我记得她的书叫《恰到好处的研究》。所以，弄清楚什么是“恰到好处”，这才是真正的难点。但我认为，归根结底，你不希望积累太多研究以至于陷入分析瘫痪，对吧？即使今天我们可以用 AI 做更多事情来建模数据、发现模式等等。所以，关键在于弄清楚：成功是什么样的？如果我们理解了成功的样子，就可以开始拆解哪些事情能让我们达到目标。我们知道，与任何现有用户群达成成功的一个标准是理解他们的需求。我们为什么要理解他们的需求？因为我们想与他们对话，产生共鸣，找到那个简单的人性真相。但人是复杂的。有时这意味着做纵向日记研究，长期观察人们；有时意味着做一些快速而粗糙的用户访谈或概念测试；有时意味着做更大规模的调查，试图找出调查中的模式。但我相信，所有研究都是数据点，只要它们与最终目标相关。决定什么有意义，很大程度上取决于预算、时间、资源等等。那么，最快获得答案的捷径是什么？什么能给你带来自信的设计决策？如果你能找到那个方法，就直接去做。

I did not coin this term. So I want to be really clear. There's somebody who's a lot more experienced than me who coined this term and her name is Erika Hall and she's written for A Book Apart and I think her book was called Just Enough Research. Right. And so figuring out what is just enough, that's the real snag in all of this. But I think that ultimately you don't want to get so much research under your belt that you get into analysis paralysis, right? Like even though we can do a lot more with AI today to model the data and find the patterns and all the things. And so it's figuring out, okay, well, what does success look like? If we understand what success looks like, then we can start to unpack what are the things that are going to get us there. One of the things we know is a standard of getting to success with any existing user base is understanding their needs. Why do we want to understand their needs? Because we want to speak to them, resonate with them, find that simple human truth. But people are complicated. Sometimes that means doing a longitudinal diary study and studying people over time. Sometimes that means some really quick and dirty user interviews or some concept testing. Sometimes that means doing a bigger survey and trying to figure out what the patterns are in the survey. But I am a believer in all research as a data point that makes sense given the end goal. Deciding what makes sense can have a lot to do with budget, time, resources, all the things. So, what's the quickest cheat code to get you to those answers? What's the thing that's going to give you those confident design decisions? And if you can find that method, just go.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yeah.

自信的设计决策也与设计者本身有很大关系。所以，加上适量的研究，能给你继续创作的信心基础。但我们非常推崇实物化。所以在那些空谈过多的项目中，我们表现不佳。我们会尽快进入制作阶段，因为一个原型、一个屏幕、一张草图、一个情绪板，比任何花哨的演示文稿或千言万语都更有说服力，对吧？所以，制作出可以指着的实物非常重要，同时要用真实人类的研究来平衡。在我看来，你可以使用合成人类，但我也认为应该用真实人类来平衡。

And confident design decisions also have a lot to do with the people who are designing. And so, that plus the right amount of research to give you that foundation of confidence into continuing to make something. But we're big fans of the tangible. So we don't do well in projects where we talk a lot. We get to making as quickly as possible because a prototype, a screen, a sketch, a mood board can say more than any sort of fancy deck or a million words, right? So getting to the making of something tangible to point at is so important along with tempering that with real research with real humans. In my opinion, you can use synthetic humans if you want, but I also say that you should temper that with real humans.

好的，我正想问这个，因为你提到了要尽快达到目标。我就想，嗯，这里有没有什么附加条件？

Okay, I was going to ask about that because you talked about the fastest getting there as quickly as you can. I'm like, well, is there an asterisk there or...

嗯，想想看。合成人类是基于什么训练的？它们会变成什么？它们会变成一个角色的混合体。

Well, think about it. Like, what are synthetic humans trained on? And what do they become? They become an amalgamation of a persona.

如果你把合适的设计师或研究员放在一个房间里，他们也会因为同样的原因喜欢或讨厌一个角色，对吧？所以你必须小心使用合成方法，因为它们不能给你人类体验所需的纯粹性，对吧？你听到的是一种非常稀释的、标准化的体验。所以“恰到好处”是一个很难回答的问题，但它非常重要。我知道我实验室的团队一直在推动，根据我们能做什么、什么时候做以及设计问题的强度，找出最合理的方案，对吧？如果是一个强度很大的设计问题，比如在医疗或金融等重大领域，你会想花更多时间仔细思考如何执行，而不是像“嘿，我们在做一个早期创业项目，有一些品牌概念想试试看大家的反应”。

And if you get the right designer or researcher in a room, they'll either love or hate a persona too for all the same reasons, right? And so you just have to be careful with synthetic methods because they're not giving you the purity of what you need in the human experience, right? It's a very watered down normalized experience that you're hearing about. So the just enough is such a hard question to answer, but it's a really important one that I know the team at my lab is constantly pushing on and figuring out what makes the most sense given the context of what we can do and when and also the intensity of the design problem, right? If there's a really intense design problem that's, let's say, in something consequential like healthcare or finance, you're going to want to take more beats to be really thoughtful about how you execute that rather than, hey, we're working on an early stage startup and we've got some brand concepts that we want to go kick around and see what people think.

这两者就是“恰到好处”可能存在的两个极端。老实说，听你说话时我也有同感，因为我今年一直在做一个新产品，做了很多探索性访谈，非常多。我想我到了那个点，理解了那一层，可能已经掌握了足够的信息来做正确的决定。但后来我可能做了超出“恰到好处”的研究，深入到了另一层，结果开始有点原地打转，因为你开始真正揭示所有的分歧和所有边缘情况。

Those are two very wide ends of what just enough might be. Honestly, I had some conviction even listening to you talk because I've been working on a new product this year and I did a lot of discovery calls, like a lot. And I think I got to the point where I understood the layer that was probably held enough information for me to make the right decisions. But then I had probably more than just enough of this research process and I got down to another layer and it actually started spinning me in circles a little bit because then you start to really illuminate all of the divergence and all of the edge cases.

你提到了分析瘫痪，我完全感受到了。完全感受到了。如果我做了一半的研究，我还会感受到吗？也许不会。你几乎可以保留对某个方向的信心和兴奋，而那时你最重要的优势就是 momentum（动力）。也许研究和 momentum 之间存在这种反比关系。

You said analysis paralysis and I totally felt that. I totally felt that. And would I have felt that if I did half as much research? Maybe not actually. You can almost preserve this confidence and excitement about a direction and at that point the most important thing you have on your side is momentum anyway and perhaps there's this inverse correlation then between research and momentum.

你有没有把那些结果输入 AI 来帮助分析？

Did you pop any of those results into an AI to help sense?

我用了。我大量使用了 Granola。

I did. I used Granola quite heavily for it.

好的。为什么？我好奇你为什么这么问。

Okay. Why? I'm curious why you ask.

嗯，只是因为如果你给 AI 正确的提示……我不知道确切的提示是什么。我的研究主管会更擅长这个提示。但如果你说“作为一个专家研究员和策略师，看看这组结果，告诉我模式在哪里。告诉我最深刻的洞察是什么。”你明白我的意思吗？给它这样的提示，让它引导你一个方向。让它暂时当你的老板，问它“在整个分析瘫痪中，你觉得你缺少的那个专家层面在哪里？”对吧？因为想象你去找一个朋友，问同样的问题。那会是一个很酷的实验：先问 Claude，然后问 Angie。致敬一下。

Well, it's just because if you give AI the right prompts... I don't know what the exact right prompt would be. My head of research would be better for this prompt. But if you were to say like 'be an expert researcher and strategist, look at this result set and show me where the patterns are. Show me what the deepest insight is.' You know what I mean? Kind of giving it that prompt to train you in a direction. Have it be your boss for a second and give it like 'where's that expert layer that you feel like you're missing' in the whole analysis paralysis, right? Because imagine you went to a friend, asked the same thing. That would be a cool experiment to go to Claude but then go to Angie. Shout out.

你刚才提到的一点，可能几乎是我工作方式和你刚才提出的想法的结合——我真的很喜欢让 AI 问我问题。与其我自己输入，不如说“嘿，我希望你在这个话题上狠狠采访我”，然后我们再从中综合。所以也许我可以做的是，把原始研究、访谈、转录等任何我想放进去的数据集喂给它，然后说：“好了，现在请你问我问题，了解我的看法——我从这个数据集中看到了什么？我注意到了哪些趋势？”一旦你理解了我看到的，再创建一份报告，列出所有我没有提到的东西。我没有强调的所有内容，或者你可以用不同方式组合这些趋势，指向不同方向，或帮助我得出另一套结论。我从未做过类似的事，但我刚刚把它当作一个未来可能探索的实践记下了。

Something that you just sparked which maybe is like kind of almost a combination of how I'm working and then an idea that you just presented which is I really like having AI ask me questions. Like rather than me doing the input, I'm basically like hey I want you to just interview the hell out of me on this topic. and then we'll synthesize it from there. And so perhaps what I could do is feed it this raw data set of research, interviews, whatever it is, transcripts, doesn't, you know, whatever I want to put in there and then say, "Okay, now I want you to ask me questions to get at my take what do I see from this data set? What are the trends that I notice?" And then once you have an understanding of what I see, now create a report of everything that I did not mention. What are all of the things that I did not highlight or different ways that you could combine these trends that would point in different directions or help me arrive at a different set of conclusions? And I've never done something like that, but I've just taken that away as a potential practice that I might explore in the future.

这听起来像是流程上一个很酷的解锁。你知道，让它成为你的批评者，我觉得，是个巨大的……哦，天哪。还有一件事。就像你知道的，史蒂夫·乔布斯和更快的马。

That sounds like such a cool unlock for process. You know, having it be your critique, I think, is a huge Oh, man. Here's another thing. Like you know the Steve Jobs faster horses

亨利·福特、史蒂夫·乔布斯——你知道，他基本上采用了亨利·福特的想法：如果你问人们想要什么，他们会告诉你更快的马，而与此同时我在这里造汽车。你们都很喜欢史蒂夫·乔布斯这一点。

Henry Ford Steve Jobs like you know he basically took Henry Ford's idea that if you ask people what they wanted they would have told me faster horses meanwhile I'm making cars over here y'all like Steve Jobs that a lot.

所以你也让它处于史蒂夫·乔布斯模式，对吧？因为当你创造东西时，需要在人们告诉你的东西和投射未来可能的样子之间取得平衡。有时这两件事并不直接对齐，对吧？所以这肯定会引导到理解人类状况、深层的人类需求。但然后还有，比如，

So you have it be in Steve Jobs mode for you too right because when you're making something there is balancing the thing that people tell you versus projecting that potential future of what could be. And sometimes those two things do not align directly, right? So that's definitely lead into like understanding the human condition, deeply seated human needs. But then there's the like,

嗯，如果是在描绘一个人们从未想过的未来潜在版本呢？

well, what if there's painting this like potential version of the future that people never thought of?

这就是为什么史蒂夫·乔布斯对研究非常克制。一旦你理解了这种细微差别，他并非反对研究。他只是明白这两件事必须结合在一起。

And that's why Steve Jobs was very tempered about research for this reason. And once you understand the nuance, he wasn't anti. He just understood that those two things had to be held together

并且被理解，以便做出正确而自信的设计决策，即使那不是人们告诉你的。

and understood to make the right confident design decision even if it's not what people are telling you

这是另一件非常有趣的事，因为人们可能会告诉你他们想听的话，或者关于更快的马，但那不是解决方案。我和人聊得越多，就越觉得，天哪，取决于你如何使用这些工具，体验可以天差地别。你知道，很多人仍然停留在把 Claude 或 ChatGPT 当作答案机器的阶段，但那只是触及皮毛。所以现在你让我好奇，关于你随着时间的推移如何演变 AI 的使用方式，我们还有什么没谈到的吗？甚至个人层面，你在尝试新方法，或者总体上如何在自己的工作流程中充分利用这些工具？

which is another thing that's very interesting cuz people might tell you what you want to hear or about faster horses when that's not going to be the solution. the more that I talk to people, the more that I'm like, man, depending on how you use these tools, you can have a vastly different experience, you know, like so many people still are in the phase of using something like Claude or Chachi as just an answer machine, but that's like barely scratching the surface. So now you're making me wonder, is there anything else that we haven't talked about in terms of how you've maybe evolved your usage of AI over time? even personally like what are you doing to try new methods or just in general try to get the most out of these tools in your own workflows?

嗯，我得说，我认为有一个很大的差距，但我故意这么做了：我有很多工具，但每个都不够深入。我有自己的 Perplexity、Claude 等个人账户，还有所有那些有点奇怪的东西，还有那个可能是下一个 AI 应用商店的小市场，挺值得一看的，叫 PO，还有所有这些其他东西。是的，那些是我的个人账户，但我们也有工作账户。我这么说是因为我喂给它的数据在每个工具上都很薄——垃圾进垃圾出，输出质量只取决于你给的数据，不仅在基础层面，也在个性化层面。所以我现在真正想做的是让 ChatGPT 更了解我是谁，但目前它认为我是个男人，是的，仍然如此。我试过很多次了。嗯，这是因为我给它的信息。我让它画一幅我的画像，结果是一个非常黑暗的场景。我看起来像

Well, I got to say like one thing I think that's a big gap, but I've done this intentionally is I have a lot of tools and not a lot of depth in them all. I've got my own personal accounts with Perplexity and Cloud and all the things, right? and um all these other ones that are a little bit weird and there's like this little marketplace that might be the next app store of AI that's kind of cool to look into and like it's called PO and like there's all these other things to like yeah those are my personal accounts but then we have our you know work accounts for stuff too and the reason I'm saying that is because the data that I'm giving it is so thin across each garbage in garbage out the outputs are only as good as the data that you give it right at a base level but also on a personalization level. So truly the thing I'm trying to do is get Chat JPT to know who I am a little bit more at this point, but right now it thinks I'm a man and yeah, still does. I've tried this many times. Um, and it's because of the information that I'm giving it. I asked it to paint a picture of me and it is a very dark situation. I look like

哦，天哪，这可不是行业的好反映。

Oh man, it's not a great reflection of the industry.

是的，我看起来像个文艺复兴时期的巫师，背后有些公式，但我没那么聪明。我不擅长数学，所以我不知道。它只是认为我放进去的任何东西都是我的反映，但它显然不了解我。但这是设计使然，我故意这么做的。

Yeah, I look like a Renaissance wizard with like some formulas behind and I'm not that smart. I'm not good at math, so I don't know. It just thinks that whatever I put in there, that's a reflection of me, but it clearly doesn't know me. But that's by design, and I do that on purpose.

我告诉你这个的原因是，了解所有这些事情是我的工作。知道如何训练所有这些是我的工作。知道如何正确提示是我的工作。然而，我的信息在所有工具上只是一层薄薄的覆盖。我也是个非常需要信任我所用工具的人，你知道，我一直在确保它们也履行自己的承诺。如果我给自己一些反馈，我没有给它足够的数据让它对我尽可能相关，我的数据，我的数据档案太稀疏、太薄，分散在太多工具上。

And the reason I tell you about that is that like it is my job to know about all these things. It's my job to know how to train all of these things. It's my job to know how to properly prompt. And yet, my information is a thin layer across them all. I'm a person who very much needs to trust what I work with too, you know, and I'm continually making sure that, you know, they're keeping up their end of the bargain, too. If I gave myself some feedback, I don't give it enough data to be as relevant to me as I could and I have my data, my data profile is too sparse and thin across too many tools.

我完全同意。我想我也处于完全相同的情况，也感受到了它的分量，因为我相信随着时间推移，当某个模型深入了解你并能在所有事物之间建立联系时，会产生复利价值。我有一阵子也在玩 AI 游客游戏。对我来说，后来 Tragic 发布了记忆功能，我想，哇，这太有吸引力了。于是之后我把所有东西都放进了 Tragic，它真的变得很棒。但现在有了 DIA 浏览器和 Comment 浏览器，我深信 AI 原生浏览器是未来。我也能看到它的上游好处。但对我来说这不是小事。我不是把它看作“哦，你知道，我想用哪个浏览器”。对我来说，这是“我想贡献给哪个核心 AI 系统，并随时间获得那些复利收益”。这很重大，对吧？这有点像件大事，我不会掉以轻心。所以，我不知道，这实际上是工具爆炸带来的一个疯狂结果。

I couldn't agree more. And I think I was in the exact same situation and I felt the weight of it too because I believe that there will be compounding value over time as a certain model deeply understands you and can make connections across everything. And I was kind of doing the AI tourist game for a little bit. For me it was then tragic released memory and I was like well shoot that's pretty compelling. And so then I started putting everything into tragic after that and it actually really has gotten amazing. But now you have like DIA browser and comment browser and I believe deeply that an AI native browser is the future. I can also see the kind of upstream benefits of that. But it's not like a little thing for me. I'm not looking at this as like oh you know it's the uh what browser do I want to use. For me it's like what is the core AI system that I want to contribute to and achieve those compounding benefits over time. That's weighty, right? like that's like kind of a big deal and I don't take it lightly and so I don't know it's a it's a kind of crazy outcome that's been produced by this explosion of tools actually.

完全同意。听你谈论你的思考方式以及你在浏览器方面的方向，真是太酷了，因为我也相信这一点。我的意思是，看看 Chrome。Chrome 对你了解太多了。

Totally. It's so cool to hear you talk about the way you think about it too and where you're going with the browser thing cuz I I believe that too. I mean just take a look at Chrome. Chrome knows so much about you.

这有点 creepy，而且是有原因的。

It's like it's creepy and there's a reason why.

但与此同时，如果你相信浏览器会成为下一个前沿，能极其深入地了解你，那么你就必须像你所说的那样，在“我到底愿意给它多少数据”和“我有多信任它”之间保持张力，因为我知道它对我的用处完全取决于我给了它什么。

Yet at the same time, if you are somebody who believed browsers will be like one of the next frontiers knowing you incredibly well, it's like you have to hold that tension with like what you said, how much data do I really want to give it and how much do I trust it versus like I know that it's only going to be as useful to me as what I give it.

如果我不想投入，那我在这里做什么？

What am I doing here if I don't want to invest in it?

是啊。所以这种交换是什么？这种价值交换是什么？我一直在思考这个问题。而且，我得说，我认识这两款产品背后的一些人，他们真的是很出色的设计师，在我看来非常值得信赖。所以我对用户界面层很有信心。但还有其他的部分，比如我到底该投入多少，我给了它什么。如果我说我有点阴谋论倾向，那是在骗你。我不想让它拥有所有那些。

Yeah. So like what's that exchange? What's that value exchange? And I'm constantly thinking about that. And you know, I will say that I know some people behind both of those products and really they're amazing designers and they're very trustworthy people in my opinion. So that user interface layer I have loads of confidence in. But there's other pieces of it of like how much do I buy in with what I do give it. I would be lying to you if I said like I'm a little bit of a conspiracy theorist. I don't want it to have all that.

很好。我感觉到了一点苗头。我捕捉到了一些东西。

Great. There was a hint coming through. I was picking up something.

只是一点点，你知道，也许是因为我对这方面了解太多，我觉得我们很多科技圈的人可能都知道得太多了。

Just a little bit, you know, and it's only because maybe I know too much in this and I think a lot of us in tech might know too much.

但这也是我们正在构建的世界。我在 All Trails 做过一次演讲，那是一家设计公司，我非常尊重他们。

But it's also like this is the world that we're building. I was giving a talk at All Trails who is like a design company that, you know, totally loads of respect for.

热爱 All Trails。

Love All Trails.

我刚刚和他们的团队聊了 AI，以及我们如何使用它，他们又是怎么想的，那真是一场很酷的快问快答。我很幸运认识那里的设计负责人，这是我进去的唯一原因。其中一个人问我：“那么，你信任哪些公司？”这个问题让我当场很受触动，因为我认为我们需要做的是观察世界，看信号，对吧？看看谁在发出信号，谁值得信任，谁创造的东西描绘了你想要生活的世界。我举了 Anthropic 和 Dario Amodei 的例子，我记不起他论文的名字了，好像是《Machines of Loving Grace》。

I was just talking with their team about AI and how we use it and how they were thinking about it and it was a really cool kind of rapid fire question and answer session. I'm just lucky enough to know design leaders there. That's the only reason I got in. One of them asked me, "Well, what companies do you trust?" And that was a really amazing answer to be put on the spot with because I think what we need to do is like look out in the world and look at the signals, right? And look at who is signaling who should you should trust and who creates things that paint a picture of the world that you want to live in. And you know I gave the example of Anthropic and Dario Amodei and you know I couldn't remember the name of his paper but it was like "Machines of Loving Grace."

Loving Grace。我当时想，神奇的机器机器人。是啊。

Loving grace. I was like magical machine robots. Yeah.

但所有那些用这项疯狂技术改善我们世界的方式，确实在加速。那是我想要生活的世界。但我们也必须考虑反面，因为人性就是如此——我们包罗万象。我们不全是好的。我们有善、有恶、有丑。这会在我们用 AI 创造的世界中体现出来，因为 AI 不仅仅是一面镜子，它就像一个指数公式，会放大我们世界中所有正确和错误的东西。所以，如果有人发表了那样的论文，有人做出了像 Claude 这样的产品——我只是举个例子，因为我不能一一列举。

But all of the ways that our world can be improved with this insane technology that is really picking up pace. Like that's a world I want to live in. But we also have to think about the opposite side because the human condition is like we are we contain multitudes. We are not all good. We are the good, the bad, the ugly. And so that's going to be manifested in what we make in terms of our world with especially with AI because AI is not just a mirror. It's like an exponential formula to magnify all of the things that are right but also wrong with our world. So, if you've got somebody who releases a paper like that and you've got somebody who's making a product like Claude as an example, and I'm just giving one example because I can't I want to get into everyone.

但这确实是个很好的例子，因为我也想到了，甚至联系到我们之前讨论的——是什么让某件事产生共鸣，以及你在哪里、如何赋予意义。

It's a really good example though because it popped into my head too, even tying back to what we were talking about earlier about what makes something resonate and like where and how can you attach meaning.

那是个很有效的例子，对吧？因为它在我们俩心中都有共鸣，是我们都想到的东西。他们在一个很大程度上商品化的行业里运作。这是原始技术和力量，有一点很清楚：是的，人们在互相超越，但这是一套商品化的技术。我们是在基础设施层面运作。所以，能够向世界发出如此强烈的信号——这就是我们相信的未来应该有的样子——然后吸引那些想要创造那个未来的人。

That was a pretty effective example, right? because it had mind share for both of us where that was the thing that kind of popped into our head. They're operating in largely a commodified industry. It's raw tech and power and if one thing is clear it's like yeah people are leapfrogging each other but this is a commoditized set of technology. We are operating at the infrastructure level here. And so to be able to put that much of a signal out into the world of this is what we believe the future should look like and then have that be a magnet for people who want to create that future.

是啊。

Yeah.

这就像我们之前讨论的完美例子。

It's like the perfect example of what we were talking about earlier.

我不相信这个，但假设一下，如果他们最终变成了超级邪恶的公司，那我们就该感到羞耻，你知道吗？

I don't believe this, but like let's play it out and they end up being like mega evil corp. Then like shame on us, you know?

是啊。

Yeah.

他们该感到羞耻。

Shame on them.

我不认为他们是那样。但你知道，你可以想象一个悲观主义者，或者有人说：“哇，他们真的用营销打动你了。”

I don't think that that's the case with them. But, you know, you could think of somebody who's a pessimist or somebody who's, you know, say like, "Wow, they really got you with that marketing, you know."

我的回答是：“他们确实打动了，但我信任他们。我相信他们。”还有我提到的那个信念的飞跃：“好吧，我和他们一起迈出了那一步。如果他们辜负了我的信任，你就跟我没关系了。”不，我开玩笑的。你迈出了信念的一步，你最好兑现它。我希望并相信这背后是一群好人，但我们也必须承认，这其中很多是资本主义，你知道，这就是我们生活的世界。所以这些对话对我来说，从肤浅的“让它出彩、漂亮、品牌有趣、闪闪发光、动效”到哲学层面，跨度如此之大，因为我无法在当下不同时思考所有这些事情。这就是我冥想的原因。

And my answer was like, "They did, but I trust them. I believe them." There's also that leap of faith that I talked about where it's like, "Okay, I took that leap with them. If they break my trust, you're dead to me." No, I'm kidding. You took that leap of faith and you better pay it off. And I hope I hope I believe that you're a bunch of good people behind this, but we also have to hold space that like a lot of this is capitalism, you know, and this is the world that we live in. So these conversations wildly so go so far from like a superficial like amazing like make it pop, make it pretty like brand fun bling bling motion down to philosophy so fast for me because I can't not think about all of these things all at once in the moment that we're in. And that's why I meditate.

听你说话，有一点很清楚：你对行业很了解，对现状有不错的把握。你在和不同的团队交流。所以我很好奇，你看到设计师对 AI 有哪些误解？也许有什么想法可以转变这些心态？

One thing listening to you talk is that it's pretty clear you're plugged in to the industry and you have a decent sense of what's going on. You're talking to these different teams. So, I'm curious, are there any misconceptions about AI that you see designers have? And maybe any ideas for how we could kind of shift those mindsets?

天哪，这真的取决于设计师，你知道吗？所以我想说说这个光谱。有些设计师会说：“那玩意儿永远取代不了我的工作。它做不了我能做的事。”你知道，我相信当你想要为人类获得结果时，总是需要人类层面来控制 AI。但等等，你工作的哪些部分，对吧？你工作的哪些部分你想保留，哪些让 AI 来做？这是我们当前面临的一个重要时刻，比如，做琐碎的工作，为创造性工作腾出空间。这是我个人的观点，我希望看到。但光谱的另一端是“AI 可以做所有事”，对吧？很多人放出大量垃圾，然后它们还获得了关注，这也许没什么，但就像垃圾堆垃圾，只会产生更多垃圾。那么，如何回到一个能消除噪音的点？因为那都是噪音。能够过滤噪音是我们自古以来就需要的能力，对吧？但今天，如果你要专注于对你个人重要的事情，你必须在这方面做得更好。

Gosh, it really depends on the designer, you know? So, I guess talk about the spectrum. There's some designers who are like, that'll never take my job. He can't do what I do. Which, you know, I believe that there's always going to need to be a human layer to controlling AI when you want to get an outcome that is for humans. But hold up, what elements of your job, right? And like what elements of your job, you know, do you want to hold on to versus have AI do for you? And that's a big moment that we're in right now of, for example, doing the busy work and making room for creative work. That's my personal POV that I'd like to see. But the other end of the spectrum is the AI can do everything, right? And a lot of people putting out a lot of garbage and then it getting traction, which I guess is fine, but it's kind of like slop on slop on slop just makes more slop. And so, how do you get it back to a point where there's we cut the noise out? Because that's all just noise. And being able to filter out the noise is something that we've needed to be able to do since the beginning of time, right? But today, you have to be so much better at it if you were to focus on the things that matter for you individually.

我们涵盖了很多内容。在你走之前，我想做一个简短的总结，确保我们谈到了所有你想覆盖的话题。

We've covered a lot of ground. And before I let you go, I kind of want to give just a little catchall to make sure that we're talking about everything that you want to cover here.

那么，我要给你抛出一个假设性问题。这并不容易，但假设明天你得到一块巨大的数字广告牌，你对它有完全的创意控制权，整个设计社区都会看到它 24 小时。你想在上面放什么？

So, I'm going to toss a hypothetical your way. It's not an easy one, but let's say that tomorrow you are given this giant digital billboard that you have complete creative control over and the entire design community is going to see for 24 hours. What would you want to put on that billboard?

哦。天哪，我喜欢这个问题。我在想某种巨大的全息或光栅角度作为背景。我喜欢。所以，从看到光栅图开始就很书呆子气。它们确实存在，拿在手里更有趣，但依然如此。然后，用巨大的霓虹灯字体，大概是无衬线全大写。别搞砸了。然后我就在最底部用草书写上“爱”之类的签名。

Oh. Oh my gosh, I love this question. What I'm thinking is some sort of big holographic or lenticular angles that are the background. I love it. So, really nerdy from seeing lenticulars. They're a thing. They're more fun to hold, but still. And then in giant neon lettering, probably sans serif all caps. Don't it up. And then I would just sign like love in script at the very bottom or something.

哇，你在脑子里这么快就达到了如此高的保真度。就像你闭上眼睛，它就在那里。

Wow, that got to such a high level of fidelity so quickly in your brain. Like you closed your eyes and it was just there.

我们能把它做出来吗？谁愿意付钱？

Can we get this made? Who wants to pay for it?

跟我们说说“别搞砸了”对你的意义。

Give us the meaning to you behind 'Don't it up.'

这和我们从头到尾讨论的很多内容相关。你的职业生涯仍然可以是一个巨大而开阔的空间。这个世界仍然是可以塑造的。就像我们可以创造它。我们可以创造我们想要的东西。这就是我……天哪，我喜欢做设计师，因为我们可以创造我们想在这个世界上看到的一部分东西，即使我们不能控制一切。这只是一个公益广告。这是一个给所有有钱或从事科技行业的人的公益广告。实际上，它是……

It's so much of what we were talking about top to bottom. Your career can still be a big gigantic wide open space. This world can still be malleable. Like we can make it. We can make what we want. That's a thing that I'm... boy, I love being a designer is we can make part of the things that we want to see in the world even if we can't control everything. It's just a PSA. It's a PSA for everybody who has money or is in tech. Actually, it's...

我喜欢这个。而且我认为，既然生产资料正在被有效地民主化，现在成为设计师是多么好的时机。就像我非常感激这套核心技能，因为它将需要这些技能来产生真正的影响并实际塑造未来。

I love that. And I think now that the means of production is effectively being democratized, what a great time to be a designer. Like I'm so grateful for this core set of skills in terms of what it will require to make a true impact and actually shape the future.

我坚信，知道如何从这些工具中获得结果的人，才是那些能做出成功作品的人。归根结底，你的头衔不如你的技能重要。而这些技能正在融合。如果你热爱学习、热爱挑战自己，那会很有趣。

I am a staunch believer that the people who know how to get the outcomes from these tools are the ones that are going to make the things that win. And at the end of the day, your title doesn't matter as much as your skills. And those skills are blending together. And that's fun if you love learning and if you love challenging yourself.

我喜欢。那么，Sarah，这很美好，也是这个节目有史以来最人性化的一次。所以，感谢你的到来。

I love it. Well, Sarah, this has been beautiful and as human as this show has ever gotten. So, I appreciate you coming on.

太棒了。我喜欢。我会把它输入进去。也许我们……我会看看编辑能否在节目上线前创建某种视觉表现。我们看看它是否接近你的愿景。那么，感谢你的到来，Sarah。这太棒了。

It was great. I love it. I'm going to feed it in. Maybe we'll... I'll see if the editor can create some kind of visual representation by the time this goes live. We'll see if it gets close to your vision. Well, thank you for coming on, Sarah. This was a blast.

是的，今天也更了解你了，非常有趣。并且为你为社区所做的一切喝彩。而且……我喜欢互联网上的积极空间。所以，感谢你所做的一切。

Yeah, it was so fun to get to know you better today, too. And just shouts for everything that you do for the community. And it's just... I love positive spaces on the internet. So, thank you for doing what you do.

在你走之前，我想花一分钟向你介绍我最喜欢的产品，因为我经常被问到我的工具栈是什么。Framer 是我构建网站的方式。Genway 是我做研究的方式。Granola 是我在评审期间做笔记的方式。Jitter 是我为设计制作动画的方式。Lovable 是我用代码实现想法的方式。Mobin 是我寻找设计灵感的方式。Paper 是我像创意人一样设计的方式，而 Raycast 是我每一步的快捷方式。现在，我亲手挑选了这些公司，这样我就能全职做这些节目。所以，到目前为止，支持这个节目的首要方式就是去看看它们。你可以在 dive.comclub/partners 找到完整列表。

Before I let you go, I want to take just one minute to run you through my favorite products because I'm constantly asked what's in my stack. Framer is how I build websites. Genway is how I do research. Granola is how I take notes during crit. Jitter is how I animate my designs. Lovable is how I build my ideas in code. Mobin is how I find design inspiration. Paper is how I design like a creative and Raycast is my shortcut every step of the way. Now, I've hand selected these companies so that I can do these episodes full-time. So, by far the number one way to support the show is to check them out. You can find the full list at dive.comclub/partners.