空间设计实验：让想法变得真实

对我来说，设计师这个身份真正激动人心的部分在于，我们有机会把想法变成能感受到的东西。一部分靠如今身边的技术，一部分则是眺望远方，想象接下来会发生什么。欢迎收听 Dive Club，我是 Red，这里是设计师永远不停学习的地方。今天这期请到的是微软设计师 Ryan Stephen。我想和他聊的原因是，他在 Twitter 上有一些最令人印象深刻的实验性设计。他会带我们走进他的构思过程，分享他使用的各种工具，以及他如何用设计师的身份去思考有效的叙事。这个 demo 里确实有一些非常厉害的概念。我们直接进入他的一些空间实验吧。

I think part of what's really exciting about being a designer, for me, is that we have this opportunity to make our ideas feel real. Some of that is with the technology around us today, and some of that is looking off into the distance and imagining what's coming next. Welcome to Dive Club. My name is Red, and this is where designers never stop learning. Today's episode is with Ryan Stephen, a designer at Microsoft. The reason I wanted to talk to him is that he has some of the most impressive design experiments on Twitter. So he's going to give us a behind-the-scenes look at his ideation process, all the different tools he uses, and how he thinks about effective storytelling as a designer. There are some seriously impressive concepts in this demo. Let's dive right into some of his spatial experiments.

我觉得空间想法非常酷，因为它们存在于真实世界里，而很多技术其实还没完全跟上。我们都见过笨重的头显，也见过一些眼镜形态的尝试。但作为设计师，把想法变得真实，并想象当这些限制追平到今天时是什么感觉，真的很好玩。这个想法很简单：围绕你的朋友铺开一个指南针。你在右边看到的是 After Effects 的幕后画面，我在对一段在某个公园用手机拍的素材做转描（rotoscoping）。就是简单过一遍转描——如果你之前没听过，这是视觉特效的一种技术。它让我们可以把人物合成到我们放在场景里的元素之上。所以那段素材可以真正盖在模糊的指南针视图上。真正的重点是那个想法，以及最后那种让你‘等等，这是真的吗？’然后发自内心做出回应的画面。

I think spatial ideas are really cool because they exist in the world, and a lot of the technology really hasn't caught up quite yet. We've all seen bulky headsets, and we've seen some experiments with glasses. But as a designer, it's fun to make ideas feel real and to imagine what it's like once those constraints catch up to today. This is a really simple idea: a compass laid out around your friends. What you're seeing on the right is some behind-the-scenes After Effects footage, where I was rotoscoping footage shot on a phone in a park somewhere. A simple rotoscope pass — it's a visual effects technique, if you haven't heard of it before. That lets us composite people on top of the elements we're placing in the scene. So that footage can actually go on top of the blurred compass view. Really, the point is the idea and the final expression that makes you go, 'Wait, is this real?' and then respond to it in a genuinely real way.

我的下一个作品其实处在这条光谱的另一端，叫 spatial desktop（空间桌面）。左边是最终视频。核心想法是：如果文件夹在空间世界里真的是实体，你可以把它们甩来甩去会怎样？这个想法非常俏皮，也刻意夸张——你能看到它们从沙发上弹开之类。我想通过这个例子展示的是：右边我用 Blender 搭了一个基础模型。实际运作方式就是在 Vision Pro 上录屏。等于把模型放进一个基础物理场景里，让这些 3D 物体能在整个场景里被甩来甩去。

So the next one I had is actually on the other end of that same gradient. It's called a spatial desktop. The final video is on the left here. The basic idea is: what if folders were actually physical objects in a spatial world and you could fling them around? It's a very playful idea, super exaggerated — you can see them bouncing off the couch and things like that. What I wanted to show with this example is that on the right, I'm using Blender to build this basic model. And how it actually works is just a screen recording on Vision Pro. It's actually taking the model and making a basic physics scene so you can fling these 3D objects around the scene.

你之前有没有在 Vision Pro 的世界里做过东西？这对我来说太像一个黑箱了。我看到那个，心想：好吧，你有个 Blender 模型，能把它放进去。我连皮毛都没摸过。我挺好奇这背后是什么。

Had you built anything in the Vision Pro world before? This is such a black box to me. I look at that and I'm like, okay, you've got the Blender model and you're able to insert it. I've never even scratched the surface of this. I'm just curious what goes into it.

有意思的是，这几乎和 After Effects 转描是同一回事——本来不知道怎么做，后来就会了。我就是一点一点去拿那些做最小概念所需的东西。我敢肯定这个例子最初在我脑子里或速写本上是更宏大的想法，可能还有窗口飞进来之类的。但事情就是这样：工具在塑造想法，我的想法也在塑造我选什么工具，这是一条双向的路。所以等我把这个做出来，我开始意识到：可以了，这就是那个想法。它们弹来弹去。就是这样，结束了。这种现象比你想象的更常发生。你可以从一个很宏大的想法开始，但只要你真在和工具合作，并让工具启发你，你完成的速度会比你想象得快。

It's funny because it's almost the same thing as, I don't know, After Effects rotoscoping — until now I do. I just slowly started getting whatever I needed to make the minimum idea. I'm sure this actual example started off in my head or in my sketchbook as something more grandiose. I probably had ideas of windows coming in and everything. But it's that thing where the tool informs the ideas as much as my idea informs what tool I use. It's a two-way street. So once I got this and started realizing, I'm done — that's the idea. They bounce around. That's it. It's over. That happens more than you think with some of these things too. You can start out really grand, but if you're working with the tool and really letting it inform you, you can be done faster than you think.

我在用代码做设计探索时越来越多地注意到这一点。我能更早把注意力放在交互设计上，而工具会左右我最终的走向。因为我可能只有一些笼统的想法，然后我看到某个东西，就会想：‘哦，这太有意思了。’就在今天早上，我做了一个东西，心想：‘哦对，就是它。我甚至不打算做原本脑子里想的那件事了。’就是这样。我更喜欢这个，而且完全沉浸进去了。它带我去了一个完全没想到的地方。我有那种几乎失控的感觉，但你会收获更多这种创作中的‘意外惊喜’，终点线并不完全在预期的地方，但结果总是好的。

I've noticed that more as I do more of my design explorations in code. I get to focus on interaction design earlier on, and the tool kind of informs where I end up, because I might have loose ideas of what I want. Then I see something and I'm like, 'Oh, that's so interesting.' Even just this morning, I made a thing where I was like, 'Oh yeah, that's it. I'm not even going to do the thing I originally had in my head.' That's just it. I like that more, and I get completely wrapped up. It took me somewhere I didn't quite expect. I'm feeling that almost loss of control, but you have more of these creative happy accidents, and the finish line isn't quite where you'd expect — but it all ends up good.

我觉得这就是使用现代工具的最佳情形：不被它们压垮，而是用它们推动你的决策。

I think that's the best-case scenario for using modern tools without getting overwhelmed by them — using them to drive your decisions.

很快说个消息，然后我们继续。大新闻：Mobbin 刚刚上线了动效功能。你可以看到世界级应用如何用动效引导愉悦、创造无缝体验。这也是为什么 Mobbin 对你整个设计团队来说就像一个‘作弊码’。我们团队自己一直在用它，我都等不及要把动效想法发给团队其他人了。今天就去 dive.club/mobbin 看看吧。拼写是 M-O-B-B-I-N。

Real quick message and then we can jump back into it. Big news: animations just launched in Mobbin. You can see how world-class apps use motion to guide delight and create seamless experiences. It's just another reason Mobbin is an absolute cheat code for your entire design team. We use it all the time, and I can't wait to start sending animation ideas to the rest of the team. Head to dive.club/mobbin to check it out today. That's M-O-B-B-I-N.

你们大概已经知道 paper shaders 了。感觉每次我打开 Twitter，都会看到有人在做漂亮的新半调效果。但你知道吗，Paper 在你设计时就直接使用真正的 CSS。也就是说，你的布局已经是代码了。你只需要一键复制为 React，粘贴到你喜欢的编码智能体里。Paper 每周都在交付更多核心编辑器功能。我越来越清楚，这就是设计工具未来该有的样子。如果你还没试过，就去 dive.club/paper，今天就开始设计吧。

You probably already know about paper shaders. It feels like every time I open Twitter, I see someone creating some new beautiful halftone effect. But did you know Paper uses real CSS as you design? That means your layouts are already code. So you can one-click copy as React and paste it into your coding agent of choice. Paper is shipping more of their core editor every single week. And it's becoming so clear to me that this is what the future of design tools should look like. So if you haven't tried it yet, head to dive.club/paper and start designing today.

好，回到正题。你还有更多之前做过的空间探索吗？这真的太——

Okay, now on to the episode. Do you have more spatial explorations that you've been doing? This is pretty —

还有一个——显然我还做了一堆别的。但如果我们把这条光谱看成从电影制作到代码，而我们要做的只是让想法成真，那么有时候你需要走到光谱的高端。这个作品其实用了一个着色器。这里的想法很简单：我对这地方熟到像对自己的手背一样。所以把空间地图真的放在手背上——就像那句话说的——

One more — I obviously have a bunch more that I've been working on. But if we're thinking of this gradient from filmmaking to code, and all we want to do is make the idea feel real, sometimes there's a need to go to the top end of this. So this one actually uses a shader. The idea here was really simple. It's: I know this place like the back of my hand. So having the spatial map actually on the back of your hand — like that metaphor, saying —

太酷了。

That's sick.

所以为了让它成真，我觉得把我做的那个小城市景观放到手背上会很有趣。显然它并不具备实际功能，对吧？它谈不上可读性之类的。但它是个很好玩的想法，用着色器做最合适。这个同样也是在 Vision Pro 上录屏的。实际操作上，我只是沿用同一个流程：要让它感觉真实，我最少需要学什么？

And so, to make this feel real, I thought it would be really fun to take that little city landscape I had and put it there. Obviously it's not functional, right? Nothing about it is legible or anything. But it's a really playful idea, and a shader was the best way to do it. This one was screen-recorded on Vision Pro. To literally do this, I'm just following the same process: what's the bare minimum I need to learn to make this feel real?

这三个例子屏幕右侧用的都是不同工具，这一点太让我受启发了。我很喜欢。

The fact that all three of these examples have a different tool on the right side of the screen is so inspiring to me. I love it.

这完全是狂野西部。我觉得尤其是空间设计，你可以放手去做任何事。比如有时候我真的就用手机拍一段视频，然后直接在 Figma 或 Illustrator 之类的东西上面画。它未必非要用那些重型工具不可。我觉得你可能会看到的那些所谓空间视频，多少有点神话感。

It's the wild west. I think spatial especially, you can lean into doing whatever. Like sometimes I'll literally just film a video on my phone and I'm just drawing right on top of it in Figma or Illustrator or whatever. It doesn't even need to be one of these heavy tools necessarily. I think that's kind of a myth of some of these like spatial videos you might be seeing.

而且你在日常工作中并不做任何与空间设计相关的事，对吧？

And you don't do anything related to spatial in your actual day job, right?

不对。我一直觉得，作为设计师真正让人兴奋的一点是，我们有机会让想法变得真实。一部分靠的是今天身边的技术，一部分靠望向远处，想象接下来会出现什么。我觉得这里面也有很实际的一面：当然，5 到 10 年后，我还是想能继续表达我的想法，不管我们每天互动的媒介变成了什么，对吧？这就是某种动力：是的，我觉得这是一个非常好玩的、正在兴起的新领域，但能够学会塑造这些即将到来的材料，也真的很让人有力量感——可能就在几年后。

No. I think part of what is really exciting about being a designer, always for me, is that we have this opportunity to make our ideas feel real. And some of that is with the technology that's around us today. And some of that is looking off into the distance and imagining what is coming next. And I think there's a real practical part of that too, which is, of course, in five or ten years I want to be able to still express my ideas on whatever other medium we're all interacting with every day, right? That's kind of the incentive: yes, I think this is a really fun emerging space to play in, but it's also just really empowering, I think, to be able to know how to shape these materials that are coming in, you know, several years, maybe.

你多快会把一个想法付诸行动？比如，你是不是有一个记满所有想法的本子，然后说‘我今天想建个东西’，从中挑一个来？还是说‘我有了个想法，就得尽快迈出最初几步’？你处在哪个位置？

How quickly are you acting on an idea? Like, do you have a notepad of all the ideas and you're like, 'I want to build something today,' and pick one? Or is it like, 'I have an idea and I just got to take the first few steps as quickly as possible'? Where do you fit on that spectrum?

我觉得两种情况都有。我手机里有一个滚动更新的笔记，其实就是一个纯文本笔记，里面攒了成千上万条小想法。某个想法可能不适合放进我工作中正在做的项目里。另一方面，我总想把范围缩小，找到当前工作内容的最小可行产品（MVP），我觉得这很合理——不是每个想法都应该被做出来。但我也还有另一层需求：我希望能把脑子里那些想法表达出来。而且我并不总是以同样的方式获得灵感，灵感是有涨有落的。所以能在手机里有一条长长的滚动笔记就很棒，周六或下班之后可以回来翻一翻，随手捡起一个。这大概就是我的想法流程。很多时候它们只是些文字小点子，蠢萌到‘如果你的邮件 App 是个热气球呢？’或者‘如果你的通知像小气泡一样摊在桌面上呢？’你知道吗，它们可以非常俏皮、非常天马行空。有一个我放在笔记里很久的想法，是能在信息流里漂移——就是你真的可以转弯什么的。它到底长什么样，我完全不知道。但通常，一个想法接着的下一步是……你现在看到的这个，就是个做成摇柄的音乐 App。

I think both happen. I keep a rolling note on my phone that is literally just a text note that's got thousands of little things. A certain idea might not be fitting into the current project that I'm working on at work or something like that. And there's always this desire, I think, to scope down and find the MVP for whatever it is you're working on. And I think that's valid. Like, every idea should not be shipped. But I think there's also this other part of it where I'm wanting to be able to express the ideas I have. And I'm not always necessarily inspired the same way. It ebbs and flows. So it's awesome to be able to have a long scrolling note on my phone that I can come back to and pick up on a Saturday or, you know, after work or something like that. So that's kind of a little bit about my idea process. A lot of the times they are just little text ideas that are as silly as, 'What if your mail app was a hot air balloon?' or 'What if your notifications were laid across your desk like little speech bubbles?' You know, they can be really playful and out there. One I've had on my note app forever is being able to drift around your feed. So you can actually like make turns and stuff. What that looks like, I have no idea. But usually, the next step for an idea is... So, the one you're looking at right now is a music app as a crank.

我记得在 Twitter 上看到过这个。能看到背后那么多不同的草图，真酷。

I remember seeing this on Twitter. It's cool to see all the different sketches behind the scenes.

对。从左到右、从上到下基本上是按时间顺序，是我很快做出来的一条流程。一开始我就只写了‘摇柄’。那个想法就是这样，就是‘我想做个摇柄’，仅此而已。我觉得，当你表达这种好玩的点子时，可以就这么简单。然后我有点像倒着做：你可以看到我一路迭代：‘哦，如果它是个音乐播放器呢？’‘哦，也许调节速度或音量会很合理。’这些通常都发生在 Figma 里。我会用图像生成工具，也会把我已有的草图放进来。它的保真度极低，因为我通常会把真正最终的产品做成视频或代码。所以这些几乎只是轻量级草图，帮我完成想法的感觉吧。

Yeah. So, it's kind of chronological, top left to bottom right, like the flow that I did real quick. And I started with just 'crank.' That was the idea. It was just, 'I want to make a crank.' And that's it. And, you know, when you're expressing these playful ideas, it can be as simple as that. And I kind of worked backwards. You can see me iterating into, 'Oh, what if it was a music player? Oh, it makes sense to actually maybe adjust the speed or volume or something like that.' And so this all just happens in Figma, usually. And I'm using image generation tools. I'm bringing in sketches that I have. It's extremely low-fi, because usually I'm moving to either filmmaking or code to make the actual end product. So these are almost like lightweight sketches to be able to, like, finish my ideas, I guess.

就比如摇柄这个，你有好几种不同的变体。那是你生成出来的吗？是你自己创作的吗？还是只是从 Google 图片上抓了一张图，现在拿来当占位图用？

For something like the crank, I mean, you have a few different variations of it. Is that something you're generating? Are you creating that? Is that just an image that you grabbed on Google Images and you're using it like as a placeholder right now?

对。很多这些素材，比如底下的波形或者诸如此类的东西，可能来自 Are.na、网上某个地方或某个情绪板，它们永远不会进入最终想法，只是用来感受形态的一种方式。我觉得做这些还有一个目的，是探索我在那个具体想法里想把夸张程度做到多少。有些可能已经站在快要过界的边缘，我能看出它真的会很讨喜；另一些则几乎更像讽刺，是在放大人们一直在分享的某个点子，或者某个当下的潮流。所以这也是我在做这类形态探索时顺便在拿捏的东西。

Yeah. A lot of these, like those waveforms at the bottom or different things like that, those might be from Are.na or somewhere online or some mood board, and they'll never ever make it into the final idea, but they're just a way to feel out the form. And I think a part of doing this too is exploring how exaggerated I want to be in that particular idea. There are some that are maybe on the teetering edge, where I could see how this would be really delightful, and some that are much more almost like satire, where they're exaggerating some idea that people have been sharing or something that's of the moment. So that's another part I'm kind of working through as I'm doing these form explorations.

这个光谱太吸引我了。我觉得最让我感兴趣的东西，往往更偏向夸张的一端，因为那才是真正有创造力的地方，你知道吗？我不确定怎么说。有太多设计——至少我的设计实践——是从老老实实解决问题出发的，对吧？优化流程。这些都特别有效、真实，也必要。但恰恰是那种讽刺的一端，那么跳出框框、那么有创造力，坦白说不是我会去玩的地方。所以我喜欢看像你这样的人玩。你的信息流对我来说特别好刷，就是这个原因。

That spectrum is so fascinating to me, because I think the things that I find most interesting are slightly more towards the exaggerated end, because that's where it's, like, really creative, you know? I don't know. So much of design, at least my practice of design, is derived from honestly solving problems, right? Improving flows. And all of that is very valid and real and necessary. And yet it's that kind of satirical end that is so out of the box, so deeply creative, and frankly is just not somewhere where I play. So I love watching people play like yourself. Your feed is so fun for me to scroll through for that reason.

我不知道还有别的什么工作方式，但我认为，如果你在解决非常难的问题和几乎永不停歇地发挥创意之间来回跳跃，那么两边都能产生最好的作品。

I don't know any other way of working, but I think if you're zigzagging between solving really hard problems and just being almost unrelentingly creative, it creates the best work in both of those worlds.

对，我猜这也会反哺你在 Microsoft 的工作，哪怕两者几乎没什么重叠。

Yeah, I'd imagine this feeds back into your work at Microsoft, even though it has very, very little overlap.

是，你会意外的。趁我们现在在聊，我想把这个摇柄想法剩下的部分也分享出来。顺着这条线往下走：它可能始于一条笔记，也可能是在这里画形态草图。但我发现自己做得越来越多的一件事——摇柄也经历了这个过程——就是做一些定制的小型 vibe 编码工具，帮我调校、找到真正让人感觉对味的最终版本。所以你左边看到的是最终视频，右边是 Xcode，然后……

Yeah, you'd be surprised. So, I wanted to share the rest of this crank idea while we're talking through it. Just to feed it through the thread: maybe this started as a note, maybe we're sketching forms in here. But something I found myself doing more and more, and it happened with the crank, is making bespoke little vibecoded tools that help me tune and actually find the right final thing that feels awesome. So what you're looking at here is the final video on the left, and then this is Xcode on the right, and...

第四个工具。

Tool number four.

对。

Yeah.

我在数呢。

I'm counting.

其实，做这个摇柄大概有很多种方式，也有很多更‘正确’的方式，但对我来说最容易、或者说最快的方式，其实就是用 Blender 渲染摇柄。所以你现在看到的是每一帧摇柄在逐帧播放，基本是由一个 Swift 原型驱动的。

And really, there was probably a bunch of ways I could have made the crank, and there's probably more correct ways I could have made the crank, but the easiest way I could make it — or the fastest — was actually just rendering the crank in Blender. And so what you're looking at is each crank frame playing frame by frame, powered by a Swift prototype basically.

哦，有意思。

Oh, interesting.

这样就能把不同工具融合起来。

That lets you blend tools.

你现在注意到的——右侧那个工具实际在做的事——是我做了一个小工具，可以调节那些帧的播放速度。所以它让我在开头假装有一个缓动曲线。先是加速，然后再减速。

And what you're noticing—what the actual tool is doing on the right—is I made a simple little tool that can speed up or slow down how fast those frames play back. So it lets me fake having an ease curve at the beginning. So it speeds up and then it slows down.

其实它就是让帧播放得快一点或慢一点，还挺好玩的。

And it's actually just playing the frames faster or slower, which is pretty fun.

哦，现在我明白了。我刚没搞懂上面那个数字是什么。但这些确实就是 250 个小帧。

Oh, now I get it. I wasn't sure what that number was at the top. But these are literally 250 little frames.

对。

Yeah.

你就在这些帧之间切换。哇，这太迷人了。而且左边看起来也非常流畅。

That you're just moving between. Wow, that's fascinating. And it feels so fluid, too, on the left.

如果你非常仔细地看，会发现它在接近结尾时确实会掉帧。但它照样能让人自动忽略这些瑕疵，所以效果很好。

If you look at it really hard, you can tell it's dropping frames as it reaches the end. But it still suspends disbelief just the same. So it works great.

对。又回到那句话了：暂停怀疑（suspension of disbelief）。我现在懂了。

Yeah. It comes back to that phrase again: suspension of disbelief. I get it now.

对对对对。

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

你有多深的编程背景？这里面的代码是手写的吗？还是全靠 Claude 写？给我讲讲这部分吧。

How much of a coding background do you have? Are you handwriting any of this? Is this all just with Claude? Talk to me a little about that part.

我平时会用到 Claude Code、GitHub Copilot，经常在它们之间切换。其实我是在约 2014 年通过做应用才接触到设计的，那只是表达想法的一种方式。比如我可以做出一个东西，你能够拿在手里。这种精神一直留在我身上，即使后来我学会了专业的设计手艺。所以是的，我仍然在融合这两个世界，我不知道有别的方式。

I'm using Claude Code, GitHub Copilot, switching between all of them usually. I actually found design through making apps back in, like, 2014 or so. And again, it was just a way to express ideas. Like I could make something and you could hold it. And that kind of spirit has stuck with me, even if I've learned the professional craft of design. So yeah, I still blend those worlds. I don't know any other way to do it.

这是对世界发展方向的一种有趣反映，我觉得在很多方面，两者之间的界限会越来越模糊。而且你大概也不会真在意拥有其中某一个头衔。你知道，就像是：我就是做东西的人，有时是代码，有时是视频，你知道，就是一个创意建造者。我最近经常用这个说法，而你绝对属于这一类，这是很高的赞美。

It's a fun reflection of, I think in many ways, where the world is headed—or just have less clear lines between the two. And you probably don't even really assign too much value in having one of those titles. You know, it's like, well, I just make things, and sometimes it's code and sometimes it's video, and, you know, just a creative builder. That's a phrase I've been using more recently, and you definitely fall into that category, which is a high compliment.

谢谢。我觉得设计师、原型制作人、创客——我们还在寻找合适的词。但一切都归结为：我给你看的两个不同的视频，背后的工具可能完全不同，但重要的是创意。对了，我想分享的另一个例子是……

I appreciate it. Yeah, I think designer, prototyper, maker—we're still finding the right words, I think. But it all comes back to the same thing: I can play you two different videos and they can be completely different tools, but what matters is the idea. Really, the other example that I wanted to share.

我很喜欢这个。

I love this one.

你可能见过这个。对，这叫 Venn。在讲创意之前，先说明一下：这是和一位非常有才华的设计师兼创客 Chandler Simon 合作的作品。我们一起组成了叫 Super Random 的组合。我们用一天时间想出了这个点子：如果维恩图能用来生成图像会怎样？你可以左右滚动这些项目，中间会得到一张融合图像，它融合了你的提示词和这些不同的修饰项。

You might have seen this. Yeah, so this is called Venn. And before I get into the idea, what it is: it's a collaboration with a very talented designer and maker, Chandler Simon. Together we have this duo called Super Random. And we had this idea in a day: what if Venn diagrams were a way to make images? So you could scroll these things on the left and right, and then you get this blended image that's a blend of your prompt and these different modifiers in the middle.

我记得你发布这个的时候，我就坐在那里玩了大概 15 分钟。真的很好玩。这个想法——怎么说呢——和你展示的其他一些东西很不一样，那些东西多少需要你克服一些技术障碍，或者学习新工具。而如果有一个有效的计划模式，并且能说清楚我真正想要什么，我几乎可以一次就做出来。

I remember when you published this and I just sat there and played with it for like 15 minutes. It's really fun. And it's an idea where—I don't know—it's pretty different from some of the other things you showed, where there are technical hurdles you kind of have to overcome, or learning new tools you have to overcome. Whereas with an effective plan mode and an ability to articulate what I actually want, I could almost one-shot this thing.

对于这个概念来说，这不是困难的部分。它就是一个非常巧妙的点子，真正的魔力就藏在概念本身。这个项目令人兴奋的另一点是，人们可以真正走进这个想法，而不只是看一个推特视频。他们可以把它当作工具来实际操作。我觉得这才是真正让人兴奋的地方——总是去想：我想让这个想法有多真实？有时候如果你把它推到极限，它就能变成人们可以亲手把玩、交互，甚至用它来生成图像的东西。关于现在的 Twitter，我最喜欢的一点是：你会看到一个很酷的概念，下面往往就附一个随机的 Vercel 链接，然后你会觉得——没错，现在这个时代在互联网上做东西、分享东西真有意思。有时候我会做一些东西，但发现其实不值得把它完整做出来，于是我就退回用电影制作工具之类的。所以，我做的内容分布非常广。但这个项目确实很有意思。

Like that's not the hard part for this concept. It's just a really clever idea. And the concept itself is kind of where the magic happens. Part of what was exciting about this one too is that people could actually step into this idea in a different way than a video on Twitter. They could actually experiment with it as a tool. I think that's something that's really exciting—always thinking about how real do I want to make this idea feel. And sometimes if you push those upper limits, it can be actually something that people can hold and interact with themselves or make images. That's one of my favorite parts about Twitter right now: you'll get a concept that's very cool, and it'll just be like a random Vercel link underneath, and yes, this is a fun era to be on the internet building and sharing things. And then sometimes I'll make things and it's actually not worth it to make it all the way real, and then I revert back to a filmmaking tool or something like that. So yeah, it's all over the place in between. But this was a really fun one to work on.

过去 15 年我每天都在设计产品。但在最近 6 个月里，一切都变了。有了 AI 的加入，我的想法产出速度比以往任何时候都快。但如果我不能得到让团队对齐所需的反馈，这些就都没有意义。而目前，异步反馈还是有点糟糕。所以我在做我一直想要的产品，叫 Inflight。我每天都用它来分享想法、获取团队反馈，它彻底改变了我工作的方式。所以我很兴奋能把它介绍给你。现在，我只向 Dive Club 的听众开放。所以请前往 dive.club/inflight 来领取你的名额。

I've been designing products every day for the last 15 years. But in the last 6 months, everything has changed. With AI in the mix, I'm cranking out ideas faster than ever. But none of that matters if I can't get the feedback that I need to get the team aligned. And right now, getting async feedback still kind of sucks. So I'm building the product I've always wanted, and it's called Inflight. I use it every day to share ideas and get feedback from the team, and it's totally changing the way that I work. So I'm excited to show you. Right now, I'm only giving access to Dive Club listeners. So head to dive.club/inflight to claim your spot.

上周我和 Conductor 分享了一点我的编码工作流程，然后收到了大概三条非常具体反馈，比如“嘿，如果你这样做，就能帮你完成某某事”。我当时就想“哇，我根本没意识到”，现在它改变了我整个工作方法。这种事一直在发生。回顾过去 5 年，我其实就是在推特上点发布，而你总能学到一点小东西，或者接触到一个稍微不一样的概念。我很好奇这对你自己的经历有多大共鸣？作为一个——我不知道你发布内容多久了，也许就一两年——你能回顾过去，看到在线分享对职业的影响吗？甚至更宽泛地说，对你作为创意者的生活的影响？

I shared a little bit about my coding workflow with Conductor last week and had like three comments with very specific pieces of feedback, like, 'Hey, if you did this, it would help you do XYZ.' And I'm like, 'Oh wow, I didn't even realize that,' and now it's changed how I approach the entire practice. And that keeps happening. I'm able to look back so clearly over the last 5 years of honestly just hitting send on a tweet, and you just learn a little thing or you're introduced to a slightly different concept. I'm curious how much that resonates for your own journey—as somebody who, I don't know how long you've been putting things out there, maybe like a couple years or something like that—but are you able to look back and see the impact that sharing online has had on your career, but even more broadly, you know, just life as a creative?

是的，百分之百。首先，也许最重要的是，我从那个更大的社区里交到了很多很棒的朋友和导师。我觉得这一点怎么强调都不为过，而且这样做也更有趣。但当然，从职业角度看，原型制作是测试想法、说服领导层或进行研究的一种绝佳方式。我认为你会开始在整个行业看到更多的这种趋势。我很兴奋地看到这些工具会如何继续塑造这一切。这可能就是那些好玩的点子变成真正有价值的职业成果的最直接转换方式。但我觉得还有一些不那么明显的转换方式：日复一日地在好玩的点和非常实用、功能性的产品制作之间来回穿梭，这种做法会在不同想法之间产生很多网络效应般的连接。

Yeah, 100%. First and maybe most important is I've made so many amazing friends and mentors from that broader community. I think that can't be understated, and it's also just so much more fun to do it that way. But definitely, professionally, prototyping is such an awesome way to test ideas or convince leadership or run a research study. And I think you're starting to see more of that across the industry. I'm really excited to see how these tools keep shaping that. So that's maybe one of the most obvious translations of playful ideas into real, impactful career outcomes. But I think there are less obvious ones, where really just the practice of day-in, day-out zigzagging between playful ideas and really practical, functional product making creates so many network-effect connections between different ideas.

无论是某个动画以特定方式播放，还是某个高层的概念，比如，嘿，这个想法，维恩图，也许它会让我对图像生成产生不同的思考。也许我开始真正质疑我戴上严肃帽子时的一些核心基本想法，这一点很重要。所以我认为这确实是另一个关键领域。它让我质疑原本不会质疑的决定，因为我暂时把约束拿掉了，这非常有力。

Whether it's a certain animation playing a certain way, or something as high-level as a concept like, hey, this idea, the Venn diagram, maybe that makes me think about image generation differently. And maybe I start to really question some of the core fundamental ideas I was having when I put my serious hat on, which was important. So I think that's really been another key area. It's allowed me to question decisions that I wouldn't have otherwise, because I took the constraints off for a second, which is pretty powerful.

我喜欢把约束拿掉这个想法。这甚至呼应了我最近在这些对话中注意到的趋势：设计领导者们在思考要招什么样的人才进公司——我想和什么样的人共事？——他们对这些实验的重视程度大大提高了。如果你的作品集或网站上有这样一个实验游乐场，那是很大的加分项，比过去重要得多，因为我们有了这些新工具，面对的约束也完全不同，而人们甚至不太清楚界线在哪里、什么有可能、我们能做什么。所以我看着眼前的这个项目。它没有商业影响，也没有利益相关者管理的包袱，但它相当有说服力。作为一个看了大量作品集的人，这会是一个巨大的绿灯。而且这是你花一天时间做出来的东西，但它有真实的影响力，尤其是在今天的市场上。

I love the idea of taking the constraints off. And it even ties back to something I've been noticing as a trend in these conversations: design leaders, when they're trying to figure out what talent to bring into this company—who do I want to surround myself with?—they're placing a lot more weight on these experiments. If you have a little playground of experiments on your portfolio or website, it's a pretty big deal—way bigger than it has been in the past, because we have a different set of constraints with these new tools, and people don't even really understand where the lines are, what's possible, what we can do. So I'm looking at this project right here. Yeah, it doesn't have business impact or stakeholder management attached to a portfolio piece, but it's pretty compelling. As somebody who looks at a lot of portfolios, this would be a giant green flag. And it was something you did in a day, but it has real impact, especially in today's market.

就像你同时在做五件很棒的事，对吧？你在学习新技能——这些可以是硬技能，也可以是更偏协作的技能，比如你和朋友一起合作，那很棒。也许你看了个新的 YouTube 教程来拼凑你的想法。然后另一项技能是，你愿意拿出勇气和风险把这些想法发布出来——天哪，你让你的想法被更多得多的人看到。如果你在做所有这些事，那会是多么令人兴奋的创作方式，在设计行业当然也是如此。让我们回到最初，因为这次对话里我们已经说了大概 50 次'想法'这个词，而且这个演示里有一些非常好的想法。

It's like you're doing five awesome things at once, right? You're learning new skills—those can be hard skills, or more collaborative skills, like if you're jamming with a friend, which is awesome. Maybe you watched a new YouTube tutorial to put part of your idea together. And then the other skills are about being willing to take the courage and risk to put those ideas out there—gosh, you put your idea in front of so many more people. And if you're doing all of that, what an exciting way to go about making, and in a design career for sure. Let's go all the way back to the beginning here, because we've used the word idea like 50 times in this conversation, and there are some really good ones in this presentation.

请再多讲讲你的构思过程。你有没有刻意做一些事来培养这些想法，或者激发出这种创造力？

Talk to me a little bit more about your ideation process. Are you doing anything intentionally to cultivate these ideas or spark this level of creativity?

我觉得我用来产生想法的两大战术流程——这只是对我而言；我相信每个人都有不同的方式。对我来说，我真的很喜欢在一天中随手把想法记在便签里。我尽量让它们尽可能离谱，也尽可能不被工具束缚。之后我会反过来再处理。然后我真的很喜欢用草图来表达和构思想法。我是'疯狂八分钟'方法的忠实粉丝，但我把它反着用。如果你没听说过，基本上'疯狂八分钟'就是：你设定一个 8 分钟计时器，然后在 8 分钟内画出八个不同的想法。如果你没做过，时间真的飞快。那是你经历过的最快的 8 分钟。

I think the two biggest tactical processes that I'm using to come up with ideas—this is just for me; I'm sure everyone has different ways of going about it. For me, I really love capturing ideas in a note as I go through my day. I really try to make them as outlandish as I possibly can, and as not tied to the tools as I can. I'll work backwards later on that. And then I really like sketching as a way to express and ideate on ideas. So I'm a big fan of the crazy eight method, but I use it backwards. If you haven't heard of it, basically the crazy eight method is: you set an 8-minute timer and you have to sketch eight different ideas in 8 minutes. And if you haven't done it before, it flies by. It's the fastest 8 minutes you'll ever experience.

是啊。有时候我在大约第 6 分钟时会很紧张，我就会想：'天哪，我真的还能再想出三个吗？'

Yeah. Sometimes I get stressed by about minute six, where I'm like, 'Oh my god, do I really have three more in me?'

通常，在设计学校或在实际工作中，他们使用'疯狂八分钟'的方式是：我们做完了所有生成性研究，确定了问题，然后想进行构思——基本上就是打开菱形（发散）。但'疯狂八分钟'的问题在于，一旦完成，你几乎会删掉所有的想法。所以我个人使用'疯狂八分钟'的方式是，我实际上只是在根据主题画草图，通常是一些隐喻、互动，或者那天看到的非常有趣或非常夸张的事物。所以也许我之前在加油站看到什么，就会把它加进我的 8 分钟里。那种时间压力让你真的能从日常生活中抓取可以用得上的东西。也许还来自 Twitter 或网上看到的东西。但那真的是一种非常有趣的方式，能把想法推得更远。

Usually, in design school or out in the field, how they use crazy eights is: we've done all this generative research, we've identified a problem, and we want to ideate—basically, open the diamond. But the problem with crazy eights is that you delete almost all the ideas once it's done. So how I use crazy eights for my personal practice is I'm actually just sketching on the prompt, usually things like metaphors, interactions, or things I saw that day that are really funny or really exaggerated. So I might have seen something at the gas station earlier, and I'm adding that in my 8 minutes. That time pressure allows you to really just pull things from everyday life that I can go blow up. Or maybe it's something from Twitter or online that I'm seeing. But that's been a really fun way to push the ideas much further.

这是在真正的笔记本上——你是在做纸笔速写，是吧？

This is in an actual notebook—you do pen-and-paper type sketching, huh?

是的。我只用 Sharpie，因为我不想让细节太具体，所以它只是一个——

Yeah. I only use Sharpie because I don't want the details to be too specific, so it's just a—

这难道是来自 Basecamp 的《Shape Up》？你听说过粗马克笔草图吗？我记得那是《Shape Up》里的，属于 Basecamp。他们的核心理念就是只能用粗马克笔画草图，因为这会迫使你保持在那个保真度上。

Is that from Basecamp Shape Up, by chance? Have you heard of fat marker sketches? I think it's part of Shape Up, which is from Basecamp. That's their entire premise—you can only sketch with a fat marker because it forces you to stay at that level of fidelity.

对。而且你没法擦掉，因为它是在笔记本上画的。

Yeah. And you can't erase it, because it's in the notebook.

你在什么时机会开始考虑工具，以及你想要的精确形态？从我看到的情况来看，感觉你不会等到完全想清楚了才开始。我看得出你大概就是直接开始、获得动力，然后在某个时点你大概不得不拿起某个工具——正如你之前所说，工具会塑造输出。这是一个相互影响的过程。那么，你是在什么时候做这个决定的？

At what point do you start thinking about tools and the exact shape you want to take? From what I'm looking at, it feels like you don't wait to start until you have something figured out. I can tell you kind of just start and get momentum, and at some point you probably have to take a tool—which, like you were talking about earlier, shapes the output. There's that two-way street. So, when do you make that decision?

对我而言，最好的方式就是把时间限制在一两天内。这样可以让我消除那种'天哪，我要在这个项目上花一个月'之类的压力。和所有人一样，我也有过拖得太久、永远完不成的个人项目。但我认为这也是其中的一部分。另一个部分在于，当我使用 Figma 并进行形态草图探索时，这是过程的一部分。我还要思考，首先，我希望这个想法存在于什么样的平台或载体上。然后我也会想，我希望它有多真实。对于维恩图网站，我希望它更真实一些，因为我希望人们能够体验它。而且我觉得我有足够的能力去做，所以这是一个很好的平衡点——刚好匹配我现在的水平。我不想对自己不诚实，以为我一下午就能学会 Unity，然后做出一个超棒的 3D 游戏。而是利用我目前所知道的，怎么把这个能力再往前推 5%，用来做下一件事。另外，我真的不喜欢把同一个想法做两遍。如果你翻我的 Twitter 时间线，你不会找到两个哪怕稍微相似的作品——不管是手势、设备还是其他方面。那正是让我激动的地方。

I think the best way to do it, for me, is to time-box it to a day or two. It lets me remove the pressure of, 'gosh, I'm going to work on this for a month' or something like that. Like everyone, I've had side projects that go on too long and never get finished. But I think that's part of it. And the other part is, right there, when I'm using Figma and doing form-sketching explorations as part of the process. I think part of that is thinking through, first off, what kind of platform or thing do I want this idea to exist on. And then I'm also thinking about how real do I want it to be. For the Venn diagram website, I wanted it to be more real, because I wanted people to be able to experience it. And I think I know enough to do that, so it's kind of a happy medium—meeting me where I'm at. I don't want to be dishonest with myself and think I'm going to learn Unity in an afternoon and make some awesome 3D game. But taking what I know so far, how can I push that 5% further for what I'm doing next. For me, I really don't like doing an idea the same twice. If you scroll through my Twitter feed, you won't find two that are even remotely similar—with gestures, devices, or whatever. That's part of the excitement for me.

所以这也是我筛选想法的一部分——我要确保自己真的在做一些新的、有点突破边界的东西，而不只是一个好玩的想法。

And so that comes in here too as part of the filtering process — like, I'm genuinely doing something new that feels like it pushes the envelope, besides just being a playful idea.

慢慢地，新鲜感会消退一些。你做这件事已经两年了。

Eventually the novelty starts to wear off a little bit. You've been doing this for 2 years.

对。

Yeah.

能跟我聊一聊背后的动机吗？你投入了很多时间和精力，而且隧道尽头并没有一个特别明确的 ROI。所以，你会打算继续做下去吗？这种动力来自哪里？

Can you talk to me a little bit about the underlying motivation? You're putting a lot of time and effort into this, and there's not a perfectly clear ROI at the end of the tunnel. So is this something you plan to continue doing? Where does it come from?

这件事会给我源源不断的能量，听起来有点反直觉：我做完一个这样的东西离开时，精力往往比开始前更足。不是每次都这样，尤其是那些让人受挫或者没达到标准的东西；但我从中收获了很多能量。另一个越来越激励我的点是协作。比如做一个特别随机的项目，像这个虚构的内容工作室——我们没有任何客户，就是两个人一起合作——这是我在不断改变形式的一种方式，让我能带入自己没有的视角和技能，做出全新的东西。所以这两点让我一直很投入，我也总是在尝试变化。我相信之后还会有更多可以分享的。

It gives me endless energy to actually do it, which sounds really counterintuitive, but I leave having made one of these things with more energy than I came into it. Not every single time, especially the ones that are frustrating or that don't quite meet the bar, but I find so much energy in it. And the other thing that's really inspiring increasingly is collaboration. Working on something super random, like this fake content studio — we don't have any clients and it's just a collaboration between the two of us — that is one way that I'm still mixing up the format, allowing me to bring in perspectives and skills that I don't have, and making something brand new. Both those parts keep me really engaged with it, and I'm always trying to mix it up. So there's more to share, I'm sure.

是的，光听你说话我就能感觉到，这不全是为了成果。你是被学习新东西、尝试新事物、获取新技能所驱动——从你的作品集里就能非常明显地看出来。能感觉到这对你来说很令人兴奋，就像征服一个新工具。会不会就是这种感觉？

Yeah. I can tell just listening to you talk that it's not all about the output. You're motivated by learning new things, trying new things, gathering new types of skills — it's evident even in looking at this body of work. You can tell it's exciting for you. It's almost like conquering a new tool. Does it feel like that at all?

我觉得这确实是征服一个新工具，但另一方面，我从来不知道一个想法发布后会如何引起共鸣。有些想法慢慢就熄火了；还有一些其实纯粹是个玩笑，我发出去之后反而收获了多得多的回应和想法。对我来说，最让我有能量的是：当人们非常愿意放下怀疑，甚至都没有拿着那个装有你的原型的手机或设备——他们只是盯着一块挤在 40 个无关内容之间的方形画面，然后在一天中停下来，去想象每天和这个东西生活在一起会是什么样子。这太有力量了。而我之所以花这么多时间把保真度推到这么高，就是希望你能够直接走进那个想法，甚至不需要亲手拿着它。

I think it is conquering a new tool, but also I never know how an idea is going to resonate until I post it. I've had ideas fizzle out. And I've had ones where it literally was a joke, I put it up, and I got way more response or ideas back. To me, what's really energizing is when people are so willing to suspend their disbelief that they're not even holding the phone or device with your prototype on it. They're watching a square rectangle jammed between 40 other unrelated things, and they're stopping their day to imagine what it would be like to live with that. That is so powerful. And why I spend so much time pushing the fidelity so far is so that you can step into the idea without even having to hold it.

你已经在进行下一个想法了吗？你现在在想什么？

Do you already have the next idea in progress? What are you thinking about right now?

我手头有一些项目正在推进。我对“AI 即材料”这件事特别兴奋。过去我做过一些 AI 相关的东西，我觉得通过跟这些东西互动，我们很有机会继续推动新的形态，乃至整体的软件架构。其中一条路是认真对待、建立结构化流程，那边也已经有很多人在做了。另一条路则是走 Z 字形：什么才是和 AI 互动的最好玩的方式？所以今年我也会非常兴奋地继续沿着这些线索往前推。

I've got some things in the works. I'm really excited about AI as material. I've done AI things in the past, and I think there's a big opportunity to keep pushing what the forms—and general software architecture—can be by interacting with these things. One way to go about that is to be really serious and have a structured process, and there's plenty of work happening on that end. But the other way is to zigzag: what's the most playful way to interact with AI? So I'm really excited to keep pushing on those threads this year too.

在放你走之前，我还想再问一个问题。这可能有点跑题，但我觉得很多听众正处于这样的状态：现在大家都很关注职业策略，科技和设计的版图正在剧烈变化。一切都在移动，一切都充满了可能性。而你又显然热爱设计。我想你当然希望未来很多年都能作为职业设计师继续赚钱。

I want to ask one more question before I let you go. This might feel slightly off topic, but I think a lot of people listening are in this place where career strategy is top of mind right now—the tectonic plates of tech and design are shifting. Everything's shifting and everything's up for grabs. And you obviously love design. I would imagine you want to be able to continue to make money as a professional designer for years to come.

对。

Yeah.

鉴于这一点，以及你目前所处的位置，你怎么看待自己未来的走向？你需要适应什么，或者需要在哪里投入？当你单纯去想“我该怎么规划职业生涯，让这一切继续发生”时，你会想到什么？

Given that, and where you're at, how do you think about what that future might look like for you? What do you need to adapt to, or where do you need to invest? When you just think about how you can play out your career and keep making this happen, what comes to mind?

我觉得非常重要的一点是：曝光度是一种相当重要的货币，但很多人不太会想到它。我可以举几个例子。一个是 Twitter 的例子，这个比较明显：通过分享我的作品，我非常幸运地得到很多人的热情和玩味回应，我也从中获得了很多能量——我对此很感激，也备受鼓舞。这比作品集网站要有力得多，因为作品不再是静态地放在某个地方、需要你主动去点开；它会被动地出现在你面前，不管你愿不愿意。比如在某个周二的早上 7 点，你就会看到我的一个好玩的想法。我觉得这是一个非常强大的机制。如果我是另一个想探索的设计师，我会去试。试错成本太低了：如果不行，什么也不会发生。尤其是如果你能把它时间盒得非常小——比如花一天做点夸张好玩的东西——你会惊讶于它能把你带到哪里。

I think a big one is that visibility is a pretty important currency that people don't think about that much. I can give a couple of examples. One is the Twitter example, which is a little obvious: by sharing my work, I've been really fortunate that people are excited and playful, and I get a lot of energy from it—thankful for that and energized by it. That's way more powerful than a portfolio website, because instead of the work sitting statically somewhere you have to actively reach for, it's presented to you whether you want it or not. At 7 a.m. on a Tuesday, you're going to see a playful idea from me. I think that's a really powerful mechanism. If I were another designer thinking about exploring, I would try it. The stakes are so low. If it doesn't work, nothing happens. Especially if you can time-box it really small—just make something exaggerated and playful in a day—you'll be really surprised where that can take you.

我想强调一下你刚刚说的一个点。你说最坏的情况就是什么也没发生。这一点真的非常重要，因为我觉得我们心里都有这种恐惧：如果我的作品很烂，我会在所有人面前被公开羞辱。但并不是这样——那不是下限。真正的下限只是无人问津，大家根本不关心。所以你的上行空间几乎是无限的，下行风险又很安全。把自己推出去就是你能做的最好的投资，因为那全是向上的收益。

I want to underline something you just said. You said the worst-case scenario is nothing happens. It's so important to recognize that, because I think we all feel this fear: if my work sucks, I'm going to be publicly shamed in front of everyone. But no, that's not the floor. The floor is crickets and people not really caring. So you have almost uncapped upside with a pretty safe floor. Putting yourself out there is like the greatest investment you can make, because it's all upside.

我觉得这其实比“什么也没发生”更好。你至少学到了东西。你做了一件大胆又很棒的东西，它给了你一个起点。你不再面对一张白纸——你有了一件可以拿来比较的东西，然后去做下一件事。而就“曝光度即货币”这一点来说，我认为在公司内部也一样成立。我把公司、工作室和组织都看作社交网络，就像理解传统社交网络一样。所以我在公司内部也可以“走红”。我可以把硬技能和影像制作这些能力结合起来，在内部讲一个很棒的故事。它可以很短，比如一个 20 秒的小东西，也可以是一整段 Loom 录屏。从职业角度看，这会非常有影响力，也能带你去到很多地方——当你能分享想法，并让它们在别人眼里变得真实，你就能看到它们能走多远。

I think it's actually better than nothing happens. You still learned something. You made something bold and awesome, and it gives you a starting place. You no longer have a blank page—you have a thing to compare to, and then go make the next thing. But on the same note of visibility as currency, I think that's true internally too. I view companies, studios, and organizations as social networks, the same way you think of traditional social networks. So I can go viral internally too. I can go make—using the same skills, the hard skills, and the filmmaking all together—to tell an awesome story internally. It can be really short, like a 20-second thing, or a long Loom or screen recording. Professionally, I think that's really impactful and can take you so many places: when you can share ideas and see how far they can go by making them feel real for other people.

我很喜欢这个说法。

I love that.

这让我想起我的朋友 Gabe Valdivia 很久以前在节目里说过的话。他说最好的设计师几乎就是组织内部的内容创作者。你所说的每一句话，我都在点头认同。没错，就是这样。你是在争取别人的注意力。这并非理所当然。你必须做出引人入胜、有趣的东西，或者让人停下来想：“嗯，我之前没这么想过。”

It reminds me of something my friend Gabe Valdivia said a long time ago on the show. He talked about how the best designers are almost content creators within their org. And everything you're saying, I'm just nodding along. Yes, that makes sense. You are asking for people's attention. It's not a given that you're going to get it. You have to do something compelling and interesting, or that makes people stop and think, “Huh, didn’t think about it that way.”

对。我觉得我们越来越多地在做全球化的体验和协作，对吧？所以如果我能给你发一段异步视频，用它来讲一个故事，并用上我们今天看到的那些技巧，那该是多有影响力的职业能力——不必非得开一个 30 分钟的同步会议来介绍你的一部分工作。对我来说，问题是怎么把一个想法讲清楚，而不迷失在工具堆里。现在工具比以往任何时候都多。所以我们要怎么讲故事，然后从这里出发？

Yeah. I think also we work increasingly on global experiences and collaborations, right? So if I can send you an async video that tells a story and uses a lot of the same techniques we looked at today, what an impactful career thing it is to not need a synchronous 30-minute meeting to walk through part of your work. For me, it’s about how do we tell an idea without getting lost in the tool shed. There are more tools today than ever before. So how do we tell a story and go from there?

作为一个在讲故事上下了不少功夫的人——无论对内还是对外——你能不能回顾一下过去几年，看到自己在讲故事方面有明显成长的地方，或者学到的教训，或者逐渐采用的一些技巧？

As somebody who’s been putting in the reps on storytelling, both internally and externally, are you able to look back on your last few years and see clear areas where you’ve grown as a storyteller, or lessons you’ve learned, or techniques you’ve adopted over time?

我觉得最大的成长是能够根据听众来调整故事。显然，我们今天聊了很多关于如何迭代地讲好网上的小故事。但在内部也一样，当你希望从设计团队那里获得反馈时，你讲故事的方式，和讲给一个不那么深入细节的领导的版本，是非常不同的。我觉得原型是一种很好的方式，可以省掉很多背景铺垫，跳过那十页说明“完美方案”的幻灯片，直接让人去评估这个东西本身——这才是最终重要的事。

I think the biggest one has been being able to tailor the story to the audience I’m talking to. Obviously, we’ve talked a lot today about iteratively getting better at telling bite-sized stories online. But internally too, how you tell a story when you want feedback from a design team is very different from the story you’d tell a leader who may not be as deep in the weeds. I think prototypes are a great way to move past all the context-setting sometimes and skip the ten slides explaining what the perfect thing is, and really let someone just evaluate the thing itself—which is what matters at the end of the day.

对。我经常想的一件事——多年来很多设计师都跟我提过这个观点——就是你要尽可能长时间地保持低保真度，这样才能在陷入细节之前确保对齐。有一种恐惧是，如果我展示太多细节，会得到糟糕的反馈。我确实遇到过这种事。我失去过控制，因为大家都在纠结一个小 UI 元素，而那并不是我们聚集在这里的原因。话虽如此，我几乎从没听人提到另一面：如果你保持低保真度，人们可能会因为完全同意那些高层的想法而不断点头。然后到了你说“好，就是它”的时候，他们一看，说“哦，这跟我脑子里想的完全不一样。”你几乎会默认，等到提高保真度时细节自然会被填充。但确实，这里还是有相当大的执行差距。而且我们越推迟这个……我遇到过很多次。我深切体会过保持低保真的痛苦。相反，如果你一开始就拿出一个非常精致的原型，他们立刻就知道喜不喜欢。他们能非常具体地指出来：“不，我不喜欢这部分”，或者“对，这说得通。”

Yeah. Something I think a lot about—and I’ve had this idea presented to me by so many designers over the years—is that you have to keep the fidelity low as long as possible so you can make sure you’re aligned before getting lost in details. There’s this fear that if I show too much detail, I’ll get bad feedback. And that has happened to me, for sure. I’ve lost control because people were obsessing over a little UI piece, and that’s not the reason we’re here. That said, the flip side I almost never hear people talk about is if you keep the fidelity low, people can just nod along in agreement because they totally agree with all the high-level stuff. Then you get to the point where you’re like, “Okay, here it is.” And they look at it and say, “Oh, that wasn’t what I had in my head at all.” You almost assume the details will get fleshed out when you increase fidelity. But yeah, there’s still a pretty large execution gap there. And the longer we push that off... I’ve run into that issue many times. I’ve felt the pain of keeping fidelity low. Whereas if you show someone a really slick prototype right out of the gate, they’re going to know whether they like it. They’ll be able to point to it specifically and say, “No, I don’t like this part,” or “Yeah, that makes sense.”

对。我喜欢思考的是“努力保真度”，而不是视觉保真度。所以如果我能用一天、一个周末或一周做出某个东西，无论内部还是外部，那种投入的程度才是关键，而不一定是屏幕上的矩形动得多炫。

Yeah. What I like to think about is effort fidelity more than visual fidelity. So if I can make something in a day, a weekend, or a week, internally or externally, that fidelity is what matters, not necessarily how awesome the rectangles move around the screen.

工具也很重要，因为过去保真度和时间之间的关联要清晰得多。当然，做高保真度的东西需要更多时间。但现在，实际上没人说得准了。你可能用一个好的提示词就能做出极其高保真的东西。这确实改变了这个等式。

And that’s so important too, with the tools, because it used to be much clearer in terms of the correlation between fidelity and time. Yeah, of course it would take you more time to make a high-fidelity thing. But now, actually, nobody knows anymore. You could make something incredibly high fidelity in one good prompt. And that kind of changes the equation a little bit.

我还觉得，作为设计师，我们在让想法变得真实的时候，要决定这个想法的哪个方面需要真实。视觉需要真实吗？这个手势需要真实吗？信息架构需要真实吗？也许真正需要真实的，只是你在屏幕上使用的语言。对吧。

And I think also, as designers, we have a role in deciding if we’re making ideas feel real, what aspect of the idea needs to feel real. Do the visuals need to feel real? Does the gesture need to feel real? Does the information architecture need to feel real? Maybe the only thing that actually needs to be real is the language you’re using on the screen. Okay.

对。也许真的只是一个数据层面的东西。

Yeah. It might just be a data thing.

对，完全同意。所以我觉得这也是需要批判性思考的地方，也是我每天在挑战自己的地方。我会做出一个东西，然后进入自己的反馈循环：嘿，这个东西是以正确的方式变得真实吗？

Yeah, exactly. So I think that’s also something to think critically about, something I challenge myself with every day. I’ll make something and kind of run my own feedback loop: hey, was this real in the right way?

好了，Ryan，感谢你来到节目，带我们简单浏览了你的作品，让我们了解你的想法、你如何构思、你的创意过程。这一整块内容都非常迷人。在我见过的所有设计师里，你的作品集是相当有趣的之一，我为此感谢你。谢谢你今天来和我们分享。

Well, Ryan, I appreciate you coming on, giving us a little tour of your work, and helping us get inside your brain, how you ideate, your process for creativity. Everything in that bucket has been fascinating. You have one of the more interesting bodies of work of any designer I’ve met, and I appreciate you for it. So thanks for coming on today and sharing it with us.

谢谢你。聊得很愉快。

Thank you. It was a pleasure chatting.

在你走之前，我想花一分钟介绍我最喜欢的产品，因为我经常被问到我的工具栈是什么。Framer 是我建网站的工具。Genway 是我做研究的方式。Granola 是评审时我做笔记的工具。Jitter 是我给设计做动效的工具。Lovable 是我用代码实现想法的方式。Mobin 是我寻找设计灵感的地方。Paper 是我像创意人一样设计的工具。Raycast 是我每一步都会用到的快捷方式。这些公司都是我精心挑选的，好让我能全职做这些节目。所以，目前支持这个节目最重要的方式就是去看看它们。你可以在 dive.comclub/partners 找到完整列表。

Before I let you go, I want to take a minute to run through my favorite products, because I’m constantly asked what’s in my stack. Framer is how I build websites. Genway is how I do research. Granola is how I take notes during crit. Jitter is how I animate my designs. Lovable is how I build my ideas in code. Mobin is how I find design inspiration. Paper is how I design like a creative. And Raycast is my shortcut every step of the way. I’ve hand-selected these companies so that I can do these episodes full-time. So, by far the number one way to support the show is to check them out. You can find the full list at dive.comclub/partners.