86 分钟找到产品市场契合度的指南

Rob，非常感谢你来到播客，欢迎。

Rob, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.

你好，谢谢。

Hello. Thank you.

你是《The Power of Pull》的作者。我手边就有这本书。你有一个叫《The Physics of Startups》的通讯。我想我没告诉过你，我得知你的方式非常不寻常。我有一个面向付费订阅者的 Slack 社区。就在过去一个月里，有两个不同的人发帖说：‘Lenny，你得请 Rob 上播客。我一直在读他的书，对我正在做的事情非常有用。’这些人有些是创始人，有些是产品人，我就想，这家伙是谁？我得了解一下。于是我联系了他，这就是这次播客的由来。本质上，你在这本书里和通讯里所做的，是创建了一份非常务实的指南，关于如何找到产品市场契合，以及如何从 0 到 1，再从 1 到更多。为了给人们一个相信你的理由，除了我已经说过的那些人说这有多有用之外，我知道你帮助了大约 50 家不同的初创公司从零做到超过 100 万美元的 ARR。请讲讲这些见解和建议是从哪里来的。

You are the author of The Power of Pull. I've got the book right here. You have a newsletter called The Physics of Startups. I don't think I told you this, but the way I learned of you is a very unusual way. I have this Slack community for my paid subscribers. And in the Slack, just in the past month, two different people started threads where they're like, 'Lenny, you need to get Rob on the podcast. I have been reading his book and it's extremely useful to what I've been doing.' And these are some founders, some product people, and I'm just like, well, who is this guy? I got to find out. And so I reached out and that's how this came to be. Essentially, what you've written in this book and what you do in your newsletter is you've basically created a very pragmatic guide to finding product market fit and basically going from zero to one and then one beyond. And to give people a reason to believe you, other than what I've already said about people saying how useful this has been, I know you've helped something like 50 different startups get from zero to over a million in ARR. Speak to just where this insight and advice comes from.

是的。我没想到会写书或做这样的事。作为创始人，我在尝试从 0 到 1 时被打得鼻青脸肿，然后偶然想通了，接着一堆朋友开始拉我帮他们的初创公司从 0 到 1，我就对这个阶段着迷了。它超级有趣，超级奇怪。我觉得关于这个阶段的好东西不多，所以我莫名其妙地迷上了尽可能多地从 0 到 1，我喜欢这样。

Yeah. Yes. I did not expect to be writing a book or doing anything like this. I got punched in the face as a founder trying to go zero to one and then randomly figured it out and then a bunch of my friends started pulling me in to help their startups go zero to one and just kind of got obsessed with this stage. It's super interesting, super weird. I feel like there's not a lot of good stuff written about it and so I've just gotten strangely obsessed with doing zero to one as many times as possible and I love that.

实际上，我要从我的社区里读几条引语，来强化你刚才说的为什么人们这样说你所做的事情。这真的很不寻常。就像即使你刚才说不多，但创始人的内容很多。这里是如何找到想法。这里是如何找到产品市场契合。所以，如果人们说这特别有用，比任何其他东西都有用，那对我来说是一个很大的信号。所以，人们在我的社区里告诉我的几件事。第一，我记得读他书的第一章，感觉肩上的重担卸下了，我不是什么愚蠢无知的异类，这是过程的正常部分。另一个，除了所有非常战术性的东西，我个人发现，我在正常化经历争取市场、争取产品市场契合的痛苦、孤独、奇怪。最后，我们遇到了 Rob 描述的同样的从 0 到 1 的陷阱：基于潜在客户说他们想要的来构建，而不是实际让他们说 yes 的东西。

I'm going to read a couple quotes actually from my community to reinforce the things you just said of why of what people have been saying about what you've done. And this is really unusual. There's like even though you just said there's not a lot, there is a lot of content for founders. Here's how to find idea. Here's how to find product market fit. So, it's really it's a big signal to me if people are saying this is in particular extremely useful to them more than anything else out there. So, a few things that people told me in my community. One, I remember reading the first chapter of his book and feeling the weight lifted off my shoulders that I'm not some silly clueless outlier and that this is a normal part of the process. Another besides all the very tactical stuff, personally, I found I'm normalizing just how painful, lonely, weird it is to go through fighting mark fighting product market fit. Finally, we ran into the same zero to one traps Rob describes building based on what prospects said they wanted rather than what actually got them to say yes.

哇。你的社区里有非常好的人。那真是

Wow. You have very nice people in your community. That's that's uh

确实。

that's true.

太友善了。

That's super kind.

确实。确实。好吧。总之，就这样。只是给大家……好，让我们注意。嗯，好，给我们一个 pull 框架的概述。

That's true. That's true. All right. Anyway, so there you go. Just to give people Okay, let's pay attention. Um okay, give us a uh an overview of the pull framework.

是的。所以 pull 框架描述的是一个会把你的产品从你手中夺走的人。一个不买你的产品就会显得很奇怪的人。所以我们知道 pull 的感觉是，它是关于初创公司被写的东西，你知道，就是那些占据你通讯的初创公司有疯狂的 pull。你就是这样增长的，对吧？每个人都想要那样。而我们大多数人都处于感觉我们在推的状态。我们试图说服人们关心或说服他们购买，而他们可能有点效果。所以 pull 描述的是一个不买就会显得很奇怪的人。问题就是什么导致某人把产品从你手中夺走。为此，我发现很多传统的描述，比如当我还是创始人时，我出去寻找头发着火的痛点、大问题，提供差异化的解决方案，提供真正的价值。我们有设计合作伙伴每天使用我们的产品。所以我想，好的，酷，检查检查。这东西要上天了。然后试图销售，结果两年撞墙，漫无目的地 pivot，不知道为什么。然后我们随机 pivot。它起飞了，我意识到那不是导致人们把产品从你手中夺走的东西。不是痛点或价值主张之类的。因为意识到人们基本上可以说，嗯，是的，很好，你的产品解决了我们的痛点问题，提供了大量价值，但我不会放下我的优先事项来买它。所以我意识到这是关于优先事项，一种特定的优先事项，某人试图做某事，他们待办事项清单上有一个项目，试图现在做，但他们无法用现有的工具、方法或选项做到。在这种情况下，他们就像一根卷紧的弹簧，对吧？试图做某事但卡住了，你出现并提供一些让他们解脱的东西，帮助他们完成那个优先事项。那时他们就会从你手中夺走。而 pull 框架就是为此的缩写。

Yeah. So the pull framework describes a person who will pull your product out of your hands. Someone who's weird not to buy your product. So we like know what pull feels like is it's the thing that's written about with startups, you know, it's the thing the startups that take up you your newsletter had insane pull. You grew like that, right? And everybody wants that. And most of us are in the situation where it feels like we are pushing. We're trying to convince people to care or convince them to buy and they're it's like kind of maybe working. And so pull describes a person who would be weird not to buy. The question is just like what causes somebody to pull a product out of your hands. And for that I found a lot of the traditional descriptions of things like when I was a founder I went out and found hair on fire pain points big problems offered a differentiated solution that provided real value. We had design partners using our product every single day. And so I was like okay cool check check. This thing's going to the moon. and then tried to sell it and just got smashed into a wall for 2 years pivoting around aimlessly, not having no clue why. And then we randomly pivoted. It took off and I realized that it wasn't the thing that causes people to pull a product out of your hands. It's not pain points or value props or things like that. it um because realize that people can basically just say uh yeah like great this you know it's great that your product solves our pain points problems offers a ton of value but I'm not going to drop my priorities to buy it and so I realized it's about priorities a certain kind of priority where somebody's trying to do something they got a project on their to-do list trying to do it right now but they can't do it with their existing tools methods or options In that case, they're like a coiled spring, right? Trying to do something stuck and you show up and just offer something that gets them unstuck, that helps them get that priority done. That's when they rip it out of your hands. And the pull framework is just an acronym for that.

销售电话背后的理论是，如果你有 pull，你会把东西从我手中夺走。所以，我有一个非常具体的销售电话结构，用于进入发现阶段然后过渡出发现阶段。人们如何使用这个框架来帮助他们想出更可能实际成功的想法？

The theory behind a sales call is if you have pull, you're going to rip the thing out of my hands. So, I have a very specific structure of a sales call for getting into discovery and then transitioning out of discovery. How can people use this framework to help them come up with ideas that are more likely to actually be successful?

人们犯的主要错误之一是认为 pull 是公司拥有的东西。它是个人拥有的东西。你不是在向 SpaceX 销售。你是在向 SpaceX 的法律主管销售，她的待办事项清单上有一个他们自己无法完成的项目。

One of the main mistakes people make is thinking that pull is a thing that a company has. It's a thing a person has. You're not selling to SpaceX. You're selling to the head of legal at SpaceX who has a project on her to-do list that they can't do themselves.

你有这个 Hail Mary 方法的概念。你在和人交谈，他们说：‘哦天哪，这正是我需要的。’很多时候这不会发生。这也是一个机会，我称之为扔出 Hail Mary，也就是你待办事项清单上有没有什么你现在愿意付钱让我做的事情？我们看看他们是否尝试购买。如果他们不买，酷。我们学到了东西。我们可以从那里继续迭代。如果他们买了，好的，太好了。现在我们可能有点东西了。让我们看看它是否重复。

You have this idea of the Hail Mary approach. You're talking with people and they're like, 'Oh my gosh, this is exactly what I need.' A lot of the time that's not going to happen. That's also an opportunity to what I call throw the Hail Mary, which is is there anything on your to-do list that you would pay me to do right now? We're seeing if they try to buy. If they don't, cool. We've learned something. We can kind of keep iterating from there. If they do, okay, great. Now we might have something. Let's see if it repeats.

假设你真的找到了某个东西，某个有 pull 的东西，人们说，我现在就需要这个。接下来是什么？

Say you actually found something, something that is pulling and people are like, I need this now. What comes next?

留存超级重要，而且并不明显。所以我建议的是

Retention is super important and it's not obvious. And so what I recommend is

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我们来详细聊聊 PULL 这个缩写，因为它更深入地探讨了这个想法。

Let's talk it through the acronym of PULL because that goes deeper into this idea.

是的。所以，缩写 PULL，有一个 P——项目。他们的待办事项上有一个项目。你可以把项目想象成一项需要完成的工作。嗯，你知道，Bob Moesta，你采访过他。他很了不起。嗯，项目不是‘我想买招聘软件’，而是‘我想招聘更多员工’这类事情。U 是第二个——不可避免。这是我必须现在做的事情。为什么是现在？为什么不以后？有某种原因让你必须现在做。第一个 L 是我考虑用来完成项目的选项列表。可能是再次招聘某人。可能是让我们现有的团队来做。可能是使用我已经拥有的工具或市场上的工具。第二个 L 是局限性。为什么那些选项不足以完成我的项目？

Yeah. So, acronym PULL, there's a P — project. They have a project on their to-do list. You can think of a project like a job to be done. Um, you know, Bob Moesta, you've had him on. He's amazing. Um, project is not like 'I want to buy recruitment software.' It's 'I want to hire more employees' kind of thing. U is the second one — unavoidable. This is a thing that I have to do right now. Why now? Why not later? There's some reason why you have to do it now. First L is list of options I consider for doing the project. Could be again hiring somebody. Could be having our existing team do it. Could be using the tools I already have or the tools out on the market. And the second L is limitations. Why are those options not good enough for getting my project done?

太棒了。所以前两个在那里非常重要，嗯，有趣的是后两个感觉不那么重要。我很好奇为什么它们如此重要。

Amazing. So the first two are really important there and um it's interesting the second two feel less important. I'm curious why they're so important.

所以前两个本质上就像我有一个问题。我需要解决一项需要完成的工作，而这是一个紧急问题。所以从某种意义上说，这是非常具体定义的燃眉之急问题。燃眉之急是这样的：我有一个待办事项，我的老板等着我做，而且需要现在就发生。这不仅仅是我需要解决的一般事情。

So the first two are essentially like I have a problem. I need to solve a job to be done and this is an urgent problem. So in a sense this is the hair on fire problem very concretely defined. Here's what hair on fire looks like. I have like a to-do my boss is waiting for me to do and it needs to happen now. It's not just like a general thing that I need to solve.

是的。为什么后两个如此重要？这个其他选项的想法以及为什么那些不起作用。

Yes. Why are the second two so important? This idea of other options and why those are not working.

是的。所以你可以想象一个情况，比如一个产品团队，嗯，他们有一个非常重要的任务被上级强制下达。他们有一个非常重要的功能需要构建，或者待办事项上有一个不可避免的项目，但他们打算自己做。所以，他们不需要任何东西。他们不会买任何东西，除非他们现有的选项不够好。所以，非常重要的是，这不仅仅是我在尝试做某事，而我可以自己做，或者我可以用某个品类领导者来做。我可以用任何现有的工具来做。必须是那种我现有的选项不够好的情况。所以我就像卡住了。我被阻塞了。

Yeah. So you can imagine a case where like a product team for example um they have a really important thing that has been mandated down. They have a really important feature they need to build or something that's an unavoidable project on their to-do list, but they're going to do it themselves. So, they don't need anything. They won't buy anything unless their existing options aren't good enough. And so, it really really is important that it's not just I'm trying to do something and I can do it myself or I can do it with a kind of category leader. I can do it with whatever tool is out there. It has to be something where my existing options are not good enough. So I am like stuck. I'm blocked.

我们来举个例子，让这个更真实。有什么产品或公司能让我们感受到我基本上把这个当作模板。就像疯狂填词游戏一样，只是 PULL，你填进去。所以给我们举个例子吧。

Let's do an example to make this even more real. What's like a product or a company that gives us a sense of what I basically use this as a template. It's like a mad libs-y thing where it's just like PULL and you fill it out. So let's go give us an example.

是的。所以我的朋友们在一家叫 Jump 的公司，它是一款为财务顾问打造的人工智能笔记工具。非常有趣的领域。顺便说一句，他们做了和我一样的事情。他们花了 18 个月就像撞墙一样，然后终于发现了 PULL，尝试销售，并弄明白了。但他们发现的是，财务顾问的待办事项上有一个项目，就是尽量减少他们花在客户会议记录和将笔记放入 CRM 上的时间。这是他们待办事项上的一个项目。U，不可避免的是，如果他们不做笔记并放入 CRM，他们可能会坐牢。呃，所以他们必须做那些笔记，但当他们做笔记时，他们并不想这样做。所以，他们想尽量减少时间，因为他们不喜欢做那件事。这可不是好玩的事。所以，他们考虑用来减少时间的选项列表是，呃，你知道，像通用的 AI 笔记工具。你大概有一堆这样的工具，但那些 AI 笔记工具不够好，因为它们没有与财务顾问的 CRM 集成，而且不清楚它们是否遵守 SEC 对此的规定。所以有一堆他们真的不能用的选项。所以当 Jump 出现并发现了那个 PULL 时，人们把产品从他们手中抢走了。嗯，我想有个人真的说，呃，这一定是亚历山大·格雷厄姆·贝尔发明电话时的感受。就像，对一款财务顾问产品来说，这样说很奇怪。

Yeah. So my friends are at a company called Jump which is an AI note-taker for financial advisors. Very interesting space. They did the same thing I did, by the way. They spent 18 months just like hitting their head against the wall, and then finally found PULL, tried to sell, and figured it out. But what they found was that financial advisors have a project on their to-do list that is to minimize the amount of time they spend taking notes for client meetings and putting those notes into their CRM. It's a project on their to-do list. The U, the unavoidable is if they don't take notes and put them into their CRM, they could go to jail. Uh, so they have to take those notes, but when they're taking the notes, they don't want to be doing that. And so, they want to minimize the amount of time because they don't enjoy doing that. It's just not a fun thing. So, the list of options they considered to minimize the amount of time were uh, you know, like a generic AI note-taker. You're kind of there's a list of all of those out there, but those AI note-takers were not good enough because they didn't integrate with the financial advisor CRM and it wasn't clear if they were compliant with the SEC's regulations on this. And so there's a list of options they really couldn't use. And so when Jump showed up and found that PULL, people ripped the product out of their hands. Well, I think one person literally said, uh, this must be how Alexander Graham Bell felt when he invented the telephone. Like, that's a weird thing to say about a product for financial advisors.

太棒了。这是一个很好的推荐语，可以放在他们的网站上。

Amazing. That's a great testimonial to stick on their website.

是的。

Yeah.

好的。那这个的糟糕版本会是什么样？比如，如果没有 PULL，会是什么样子？

Okay. What would be like a bad version of this? Like, what would it look like if it wasn't if there wasn't PULL?

是的。所以和 Jump 团队有一次有趣的对话，他们说：‘好的，酷。财务顾问。他们有这个项目。你知道还有谁经常见客户吗？保险代理人。所以也许我们就去和他们谈谈。’结果发现他们的待办事项上也有一个项目，就是尽量减少花在会议记录上的时间。但 U 不在那里，因为他们不必这样做。他们没有被要求将会议记录放入 CRM。所以他们现有的选项，第一个 L，就是不做会议记录，而他们已经在这样做了。所以你可以看到这个框架对他们来说并不填满，或者它没有——没有那种力量。他们没事。

Yeah. So, fun conversation with the Jump team about they said, 'Okay, cool. Financial advisors. They have this project. You know who else meets with clients all the time? Insurance agents. So maybe we just go and talk to them.' And it turns out they also have the project on their to-do list of minimizing the amount of time they spend taking meeting notes. But the U isn't there because they don't have to. They're not required to put meeting notes into their CRM. So their existing options, the first L, are not taking meeting notes, which they were already doing. And so you can see the framework kind of doesn't fill out for them or it doesn't — there's not the force isn't there. They're fine.

那个不可避免的部分——我明白为什么它如此重要。而这是一个例子。基本上你需要所有四个都在这里。

That unavoidable piece — I see why that is so important. And this is an example. Basically you need all four here.

是的。所以这里有一个很好的教训，就是所有四个都需要存在才是真正的 PULL。

Yes. So that's a good lesson here is all four need to exist for real PULL.

在第一个例子中，那个待办事项对我来说感觉不像是随便写下的待办事项。它更像是一个一般的待办事项，就像一般性地节省时间。对于一个项目来说，仅仅是一个一般的待办事项可以吗？还是说这具体地在每个财务顾问的待办事项列表上？

In the first example that to-do to me doesn't feel like it's like a to-do that just wrote down. It's kind of this general to-do just like generally save time. Is that an okay P for a project for to be able to do just a or is or is was this like specifically on every financial advisor's to-do list?

是的。所以，这件事我不会说它实际上是他们写在待办事项列表上的东西，但它是他们一直在做的事情。这是他们工作流程的一部分，而当他们做这件事时，他们试图不做它。就像我认为有一个——我现在在日历上做的行动，然后项目是我在做这件事时的意图。

Yeah. So, it was a thing that I wouldn't say it's like actually something they wrote down on their to-do list, but it was like a thing they were doing all the time. It was a part of their workflow and while they were doing it, they were trying not to do it. Like I think there's like a — the action I'm doing right now on my calendar and then the project is my intention while I'm doing it.

所以当我做这件事时，我心理待办清单上的项目就是：花最少的时间做这件烦人的事。

And so while I'm doing it, the project on my mental to-do list was like spend the least amount of time doing this annoying thing.

明白了。所以如果创始人或产品团队在听这个节目，并且他们在产品上挣扎，那很可能是因为这四个要素中有一个缺失了。

Got it. And so if a founder or product team is listening to this and they're struggling with their product, it's probably one of these four is not there.

是的。你需要同时具备所有四个要素。如果你发现了 P 但没有 U 和 L，也就是说你发现某人在某种程度上试图做某事，但他们现在并没有真正在做，而且他们现有的选择还不够好，他们会做的是抱怨，而不会购买。如果他们有了 P 和 U，但他们的 L 已经足够好，他们会说：‘是的，那正是我们现在在做的，并且正在用 Claude Code 处理。我们会搞定的。’

Yeah. You need all four at once. If you find P without U and in the L's, so you find something that somebody's trying to do kind of, but they're not actually trying to do it right now and their existing options aren't good enough, what they'll do is they'll complain and they won't buy. If they have P and U, but their L's are good enough, they're going to say, 'Yeah, that's exactly what we're doing right now and working with Claude Code on it. We're going to figure it out.'

你谈到的一个类似的观点是，这种拉力是存在的。它就像已经存在的东西，而你就像是一个猎人，寻找并发现这种拉力。请谈谈这一点。

Something along these lines that you talk about is that this pull exists. It's like this thing that's already there and you're just kind of this like I don't know hunter looking for the pull and discovering it. Talk a bit about that.

是的，当我意识到这一点时，我感到非常解放，因为我总以为自己无能。我不擅长说服市场想要我的产品。那是从这样一个角度出发的：好吧，我在构建一些非常有价值的东西，但人们不买。我如何说服他们想要购买？而事实证明，这种拉力，他们待办清单上的这个项目，在我之前并且独立于我存在，这意味着我只需要走出去找到它。我不需要说服人们拥有拉力。就像我还没完全弄清楚如何做到那样，但我认为即使可能，也非常非常困难。

Yeah, this was super liberating when I like realized this because I always thought that I was incompetent. I wasn't good at convincing the market to want my product. And it was from that perspective of okay, I'm building something that's really valuable and people aren't buying. How do I convince them to want it to buy? And it turns out this poll, this project on their to-do list exists before and independent of me, which means I just have to go out there and find it. I don't have to convince people to have pull. And it's like I haven't quite figured out how to do that, but I think it's very very hard to do if it's possible at all.

那种试图说服别人的感觉非常熟悉。看，这太棒了。它会解决你的很多问题。嗯，我喜欢这个想法，我就是喜欢它如何让所有这些关于找到产品市场契合、提出想法的通用建议变得非常具体和实在。它直接告诉你这就是它看起来的样子。嗯，你还谈到了另一点，你之前提到过，这个想法是，如果他们不买，会感觉很奇怪。这就像是正确的标志，就像很奇怪。你为什么不买这个？请谈谈这一点。

That feels very familiar just trying to convince people. Look, this is so great. It's going to solve so many of your problems. Uh, and I love these idea this like I just love how very specific and concrete it makes all of these general pieces of advice around finding product market fit, coming up with ideas. It just tells you exactly here's what it looks like. Um, something else you talk about, you mentioned this earlier, this idea that it it needs to feel weird for them not to buy it. That's like the sign that this is right, that it's like it's weird. Why aren't you buying this? Talk a bit about that.

大多数人在大多数时候都还好。考虑到他们的待办清单、他们拥有的东西、他们的选择，如果他们买了我们的产品，那才会奇怪。所以如果他们买了，那才奇怪。但一个有拉力的人不买才奇怪。他们实际上应该把产品从你手中抢走，因为他们就像那个紧绷的弹簧。所以如果你和一个有拉力的人交谈，对话基本上应该是这样的：‘等等，你能做什么？好的，我们怎么开始？产品已经存在了吗？我们怎么加入？’而基本上你与没有拉力的人的其他所有对话都可以是任何其他内容。他们可以热情友好地说：‘哇，太棒了。那超级有趣。那完全是我们行业的未来。哇，我能看出那会为我们节省很多钱’，但他们不会说：‘我现在就需要这个。’这就是你如何知道他们确实有拉力。

Most people most of the time are like fine. It would be weird if they bought our product given what's on their to-do list, given what they have, given their options, like so it'd be weird if they bought. But a person with pull is weird not to buy. They should actually pull the product out of your hands because they are like that coiled spring. And so if you talk to somebody who has pull, the conversation should basically go like, 'Wait a second, you can do what? Okay, how do we get started? Does the product exist yet? Like how do how do we get on board?' where basically every other conversation you have with somebody who doesn't have pull can have anything other than that. They can be enthusiastic and nice and say, 'Wow, that's amazing. That's super interesting. That's totally the future of our industry. Wow, I can see how that would save us so much money,' but they're not saying, 'I need this right now.' And that's how you know they actually have pull.

那些对话听起来非常熟悉。好的。那么在我们进入创业过程的整个旅程以及你如何在这个旅程中使用这个框架之前，关于拉力框架的一般概念，还有什么重要的要分享吗？

Those conversations sound very familiar. Okay. So before we get into the kind of the whole journey of the startup process and how you can use this framework in that journey, anything else around just the general idea of the pull framework that's important to share?

人们犯的主要错误之一是认为拉力是公司拥有的东西。它是个人拥有的东西。即使你销售企业软件，你也不是在向公司销售。你不是在向 SpaceX 销售。你是在向 SpaceX 的法务主管销售，她的待办清单上有一个她自己无法完成的项目。

One of the main mistakes people make is thinking that pull is a thing that a company has. It's a thing a person has. Even if you're selling enterprise software, you're selling not to the company. You're not selling to SpaceX. You're selling to just going to your genable conversation. you're selling to like the head of legal at SpaceX who has a project on her to-do list that that they can't do themselves.

这真的很有用。所以，不是 SpaceX 需要这个，而是比如 Jen 需要这个。嗯，你说这是人们常犯的错误。他们没有考虑到有这种需求的具体个人。

That is really useful. So, it's not like SpaceX needs this. It's like say Jen needs this. Uh and you're saying that that's often a mistake people make. They don't think about the specific person with this need.

是的。是的。非常常见的是说我们销售给中型私募股权公司。这就像你不是向公司销售，而是向其中的一个合伙人或运营合伙人销售，他们具体试图做 X、Y 和 Z。

Yeah. Yeah. It's it's super common to say we sell to right like mid-market private equity companies. It's like you don't you sell to a partner or an operating partner in there who's specifically trying to do X, Y, and Z.

太棒了。好的。那么，通过这个框架的视角，让我们梳理一下早期初创公司的关键时刻，找到产品市场契合。所以，我想谈谈提出想法、获得第一个销售电话、完成第一笔交易，然后从那里扩展。那么，让我们从提出想法开始。人们如何利用这个框架来帮助他们提出更有可能成功的想法？

Awesome. Okay. So, through the lens of this framework, let's go through kind of the key moments of an early stage startup, finding product market fit. So, I want to talk about coming up with an idea, getting your first sales call, closing your first deal, and then kind of scaling from there. So, let's start with coming up with an idea. How how can people use this framework to help them come up with ideas that are more likely to actually be successful?

作为创始人，我有一个想法笔记本，上面都是类似‘如果我们为 API 构建一个 API 之类的’这样的产品想法，这些产品想法听起来都很疯狂。所以我永远分不清产品想法中哪个是好主意，哪个是坏主意。幸运的是，拉力框架是位于你产品想法上游的东西，它说，我相信现在有一个人正试图做 X。我们基本上不买才奇怪。所以，我发现有帮助的是使用拉力框架来明确主张，说，我相信无论我有什么想法，我相信这个特定的人被卡住了。所以我要去和他们谈谈，看看他们是否想——甚至在我们有产品之前就尝试从我这里购买。所以对我来说，拉力框架的想法是提出谁有拉力的假设，然后去测试它。

As a founder, I I have a notebook of ideas that are all like, 'What if we built an API for APIs kind of thing like they're there all these like product ideas and the product ideas all sound unhinged?' And so I can never tell between product ideas, what's a good idea and what's a bad idea. Well, fortunately, the pull framework is a is a thing that is upstream of your product idea that says, I believe there is a person who is trying to do X right now. We who basically weird not to buy. And so, what I found to be helpful is to use the pull framework to stake out a claim and say, I believe for whatever idea I have, I believe this specific person is stuck. And so I'm going to go and talk to them and see do they want to do they try to buy from me even before we have a product. And so for me the the idea of the the um the poll framework is is to come up with a hypothesis of who has pull and then go and test that.

那么问题就变成了：好的，你如何找到这个拉力想法、这个拉力假设，你为此做什么？

And then the question becomes okay how do you find this pole idea this pole hypothesis what do you do for that?

我对此有相当强烈的看法。就像我认为我们没有足够认真地对待这个阶段。就像如果你的生命取决于它，你会怎么做？你会做 10 个 30 分钟的 Zoom 客户访谈吗？不。你会全力以赴。你会亲自去。我有几个朋友的故事，他们做了疯狂的事情，去和潜在客户一起做工作，亲身感受，亲身找到那种拉力，他们要么构建了自己会买的东西，要么嵌入到人们中去发现那个时刻，当某人试图做某事并被卡住时。

I have some fairly strong opinions on this. Like I don't think we take this stage seriously enough. Like if your life depended on it, how would would you would you be doing like 10 customer interviews for like 30 minutes on Zoom? No. You would go all out. You would go in person. And I have like a couple stories of friends who have done crazy things to go and like do the job with the potential customer to feel it firsthand to find that pull firsthand and they've either built something that they would buy themselves or they've like embedded with people to find that like that moment when someone will is like trying to do something and stuck.

太棒了。嗯，所以这里的建议是不要坐着头脑风暴。不要只是寻找大市场并找出可能有什么巨大的东西。

Amazing. Uh so the advice here is don't sit around and brainstorm. Don't uh just look for big markets and figure out where there might be something massive.

你这里说的几乎就像这样一个视角：如果你的生命取决于它，你会如何找到一个很可能是真实的问题，我想是有真正拉动力的问题？而我在这里听到的是深入细节、亲自动手、参与进去。这让我想起 Naan 的一句话，他现在是 Linear 的产品负责人——他刚去了 OpenAI——描述他在寻找机会时看重什么。他描述说：我想像那个人感受痛苦一样去感受他们的痛苦。

What you're saying here is almost like this lens of if your life depended on it, how would you find a problem that is likely to be real, I guess have real pull? And what I'm hearing here is get in the weeds, get your hands dirty, get in the way. This reminds me of a quote from Naan, who is the head of product at Linear now—he just went to OpenAI—describing what he looks for when he's trying to find opportunities. He describes: I want to feel the pain of the person the same way they feel the pain.

是的。是的。

Yeah. Yeah.

而你说的方法是跟正在构建这个东西的人一起深入进去。有没有这样做的例子？

And what you're saying is the way to do that is get in there with people building the thing. Is there an example of doing that?

是的。所以，一个学校的朋友，他完全不知道想构建什么。他没有产品想法。他没有我的笔记本。他什么都没有。他只是说，你知道，我喜欢服务小企业。我喜欢小企业。我想找到一个我喜欢服务的人，然后从中想出点子。于是他写了一个他认为可能有趣的行业列表。然后他去跟踪他们，和他们一起工作，一干就是好几天。他从太阳能电池板安装商开始，他讨厌他们，他们也讨厌他。所以他转向下一个。他最终找到了独立物理治疗师，他和他们待了几天。他喜欢他们。他们也喜欢他。然后就像，好吧酷。这里的拉动力是什么？我该做什么？于是他连续几天从他们肩膀上方观察。他甚至试图购买一家物理治疗加盟店，以便能看到损益表，并且实际上在考虑。在这个过程中，他想到了类似，等一下，看起来你在试图做 X 并卡在那里。所以是第一手经验，这就是你应该做的。

Yeah. So, a friend from school, he had no idea what he wanted to build. He had no product idea. He wasn't—he didn't have my notebook. He didn't have any of that. He just said, you know, I like serving small businesses. I like small business. I'd like to just find somebody I like to serve and I'll figure out the idea from that. And so he wrote out a list of industries that he thought might be interesting. And then he went and shadowed them and worked with them for days at a time. And so he started with solar panel installers and he hated them and they hated him. So he moved on to the next one. He eventually worked his way to independent physical therapists and he went and spent days with them. He loved them. They loved him. And it was like okay cool. What is the pull here? What should I do? And so he watched over their shoulder days on end. He even tried to buy a physical therapy franchise to be able to see the P&L and was actually considering it. And in that process, he came up with something like, wait a second, it looks like you're trying to do X and are stuck there. And so it's firsthand experience is what you should do there.

太棒了。所以就像自己亲身经历并体验。你需要这样做的原因——部分是因为如果容易的话别人早就发现了？基本上别人早就找到这个想法了。你为什么认为这样 approach 如此重要？

Awesome. So like live it yourself and live it. And is the reason you need to do that—is it partly because people would have discovered it if it was easy? Basically somebody else would have found the idea. Why do you think that is so important, approaching it this way?

是的，我会给出两个原因。第一，你知道，这些东西并不是真的从白板上冒出来的。如果他最终找到的想法是从头脑风暴中得来的，那会很奇怪。想想他可能想出多少不同的想法。而且这不是——这是他只有通过观察才看到的东西，而通过访谈也不清楚是否会浮现。但我要说的第二点更偏向哲学，那就是你正在建立一家公司来服务这类人。建立公司的全部意义就是服务某人，帮助他们做某事。所以如果你没有第一手经验，你如何做出构建真正服务于他们的东西所需的成千上万个决定？

Yeah, I'd say I'll give two reasons. One is, you know, these things don't really emerge from a whiteboard. Like it would be weird if his idea came to him that he eventually wound up finding from brainstorming. Think of how many different ideas he could have come up with. And it wasn't something that—it was something he saw only by observing, where it's unclear that that would have emerged in an interview either. But I say the second thing is more of a philosophical thing, which is you're building a company to serve this kind of person. The whole point of building a company is to serve somebody, to help them do something. And so if you don't have firsthand experience, how are you going to make the thousands of decisions it takes to actually build something that serves them?

那么想法是，一旦你有了这个洞察，比如对这家物理治疗公司，你通过拉动力框架把它写出来，以施加压力——你是这么叫的吗，拉动力假设？对吗？

And is the idea once you have this insight, say with this physical therapy company, you write it out through the pull framework to kind of pressure—is that what you call it, the pull hypothesis? Is that right?

是的。

Yep.

那就谈谈这个，就像假设你有了这个洞察，我很好奇他在物理治疗业务中实际发现了什么，以及如何开始通过拉动力框架来思考它。

So talk about that just like say you have this insight and I'm curious what he actually found with his physical therapy business and how to kind of start to think about it through the pull framework.

是的。所以你接着拿这个说，好吧，这是我认为这类人——这位物理治疗师——试图削减损益表上某项特定成本的想法。我其实不记得具体是什么了，由于 XYZ 原因不可避免。而他们现有的请顾问来做这件事的选项由于某些具体原因不够好：太贵了，太慢了。写下那个拉动力假设，然后他接下来做的非常重要，就是他把这个展示给那个人，说：‘这是你吗？’那人说：‘天哪，是的，正是这样。’他说：‘好的，太好了。如果我帮你完成这个，你会买吗？’‘是的，当然。’‘好的，太好了。’然后他说：‘我需要去和其他五位物理治疗师谈谈，确保这个会重复。’然后他这么做了，他们也拉了，这是非常重要的一点，确保他不是只为一两个人构建产品。

Yeah. So you then take that and say okay this is the kind of idea I believe this kind of person—this physical therapist—is trying to cut some specific cost on their P&L. I can't actually remember what it was, unavoidable for XYZ reasons. And their existing options of getting a consultant to come in and do this wasn't good enough for some specific reason: it was too expensive, it was too slow. Wrote out that pull hypothesis and then what he did next was super important, which was he said he showed it to that person, said, 'Is this you?' Person said, 'Oh my god, yeah, that's exactly the thing.' Said, 'Okay, great. Would you buy something if I helped you get this done?' 'Yeah, totally.' 'Okay, great.' And then he said, 'I need to go talk to five other physical therapists and just make sure this repeats.' And then he did that and they also pulled, which was the really important thing to make sure he wasn't just building a product for one person.

他给这些公司展示的是什么？是四个要点，包括这是项目、这是为什么不可避免，还是别的什么？

What is it that he showed these companies? Is it the four bullet points with here's the project, here's why it's unavoidable, or is it something else?

是的。所以我实际上建议准备两页幻灯片。第一页基本上是拉动力框架。你不必给他们看拉动力框架，因为没人会理解。你只需说：‘这是我听到的：你现在正试图做 X，因为 Y，你考虑过这个，但由于这个原因不够好。’你说：‘我大致说对了吗？’然后第二页是我如何帮助的概念性概述。所以听起来你在寻找一种比顾问更快地削减这个项目的方法。我们可以提供 XYZ。这符合你在寻找的吗？你希望第一页让他们说：‘天哪，是的。’第二页说：‘是的，怎么运作？具体如何，你知道，我们如何推进？’

Yeah. So I actually like recommend having two slides. One slide is basically the pull framework. You don't have to show them the pull framework because no one's going to understand it. You can just say, 'Here's what I hear: you're trying to do X right now because of Y, and you've considered this but it's not good enough for this reason.' You say, 'Do I have that roughly right?' And then the second slide is a kind of conceptual overview of how I can help. So it sounds like you're looking for a way to cut this line item that's faster than a consultant. We could offer that for XYZ. Does that kind of fit what you're looking for? And you're looking for the first slide for them to say, 'Oh my god, yes.' And the second slide, 'Yeah, how does it work? How exactly, you know, how do we move forward?'

我喜欢你的东西的地方是它非常即插即用、务实。所以我们将实际展示一页你让人们用来填写的模板。所以措辞，我也从这页幻灯片上读一下：你的待办清单上有一个项目，由于这个原因现在不可避免，你研究过的选项是这个，但由于这个原因它们有欠缺。太棒了。我喜欢这个。所以想法是你有这个小幻灯片，你创建它并让人们过目，想法是这是假设。那么一旦你展示给他们，当有拉动力时是什么样子？是他们准备给你打钱吗？是他们的瞳孔放大吗？你看什么？

What I love about your stuff is it's very plug-and-play, pragmatic. So we'll actually show a slide of the actual template you have people use to fill this out. So the phrasing, I'll read it from this slide too: There's a project on your to-do list and it's unavoidable right now because of this, and options you looked into are this and they're lacking for this reason. Amazing. I love this. So the idea is you have this little slide that you just create and run by people, and the idea is this is the hypothesis. And what does it look like when there's pull once you show it to them? Is it like they're ready to send you money? Is it their pupils dilate? What do you look for?

是的，你看几件事。真正重要的是他们实际上试图购买。他们说：‘好的，酷。我们怎么开始？’而他们会这么做。

Yeah, you look for a couple things. The thing that really really matters is that they actually try to buy. They say, 'Okay, cool. How do we get started?' And they will do that.

我有一个朋友，他做医药行业的销售。他摸索了一段时间，但当他找到“拉力”时，他知道了——那是在他还没有产品的时候，一位医药行业的高管对他说：“如果你能做到，我现在就付钱给你。”所以这就是你要找的信号。你要找的是他们主动靠近：“等等，你能做这个？”你要找的不是那种敷衍的热情：“哦，好吧，再多告诉我一些。嗯，让我们——好的，我们会考虑的。你能发更多信息给我们团队评估一下吗？”诸如此类。任何不是“好的，我们怎么实际推进这件事？”的反应，都不值得你投入精力去追。

I have a friend who was selling into pharma. He pivoted around for a while, but he knew he found pull when an exec in pharma, before he had a product, said, 'If you can do that, I will pay you right now.' So that's the signal you are looking for. What you're looking for is them leaning in: 'Wait a second, you can do what?' What you're not looking for is kind of leaned-out enthusiasm: 'Oh, well, tell me more. Well, let me—yeah, we'll think about it. Could you send more information so our team can review that?' Any of those kinds of things. Anything that is not like, 'Okay, how do we actually move forward on this?' is just not worth your life force going after.

有趣的是，身体语言和对一个想法感到兴奋的生理体验，很大程度上是它很好的标志。我刚请了 Google Labs 负责人 Josh Woodward 上播客，他也类似地说，你看到他们眼里有光，眼睛就亮了。有趣的是，那就是“拉力”的标志。

It's interesting how much body language and just the physical experience of getting excited about an idea is a sign that it is good. I just had Josh Woodward on the podcast, head of Google Labs, and he's similarly like you see a twinkle in their eyes and their eyes just light up. And it's so interesting that that's a sign of pull.

是的。是的。

Yeah. Yeah.

是的。你看到的是——如果他们现在不买，会不会显得奇怪？他们的行为是不是好像不买才奇怪？有没有那种——你知道，有那种“我会买这个想法”的口头承诺，和他们实际会买的信号。是身体语言吗？你怎么知道他们是认真的？

Yeah. Is what you're seeing is—is it weird for them not to buy right now? Are they behaving as if it's weird for them not to buy? Is there like a—you know, there's like the 'I will buy this idea' like they say they will buy it versus a sign they will actually buy it. Is it the body language? Like how do you know they're serious about it?

所以我称之为“拉力形状的行动”。不是个好词，但“拉力形状的行动”就像是：“我现在就需要这个。怎么——就像我在从你那里把它拉出来。我们现在怎么推进？”而不是：“哦，我完全能想象我们在第四季度用这个。”那不是把我拉过去，那是推向未来。

So I call it like a pull-shaped action. Not a good term, but a pull-shaped action is like, 'I need this right now. How do—like I am pulling it out of you. How do we move forward right now?' It is not like, 'Oh, I could totally see us using this in Q4.' That's not pulling towards me. That's kind of pushing out into the future.

就像那种“我现在就需要”的紧迫感。

Like the urgency of like I need those now.

总是有“解决你自己的问题”这种建议，这和你描述的不同。这是你推荐的路，还是你会反对？

There's always this advice of solve your own problem, which is different from what you described. Is that a path you recommend or would you recommend against that?

所以一个朋友——嗯，比如 Clearly AI 公司的 Emily——她之前在 AWS 做安全工程，她在那里发现了一个她愿意付钱请人解决的问题，但外面没有人做。所以那种情况下就是解决你自己的问题。是的，百分之百。而“解决你自己的问题”很多时候效果不佳，是因为那件事你不会付钱请人做，你只是觉得它应该存在，对吧？所以你必须对自己诚实。我做过一些东西，我会想，哦，我觉得世界需要这个。我遇到了这个问题，但如果我照镜子，我不会说“是的，现在就买这个”。

So a friend—um, so like Emily at a company called Clearly AI—she was in security engineering at AWS and she found something there that she would have paid somebody to solve but there was nobody out there. And so in that case it's solve your own problem. Yes, 100%. Where the solve your own problem falls kind of flat a lot of times is it's a thing that you wouldn't have paid somebody to do for you but you just think should exist, right? If it's—and so you have to be honest with yourself. I have done things where I've built things that like, oh, I think the world needs this. I ran into this problem but if I looked myself in the mirror I wouldn't have said yeah buy this right now.

沿着这个思路。这个建议主要是针对 B2B SaaS 类软件，还是也适用于比如消费者应用？

Along those lines. Is this advice mostly for B2B SAS sort of software or is this applicable to say consumer app?

所以，我主要在 B2B 领域，但我见过不少人——我有点惊讶，很多来自消费者领域的人也用了这个方法。有人发给我 Spanx 的故事，基本上她也是做同样的事，一对一地向人们销售，观察他们的反应，来弄清楚最终成为 Spanx 的各个部分。

So, I am mostly in the B2B space, but I have seen quite a few people—I've been kind of surprised that a lot of people from the consumer space have used this as well. And someone sent me the story of like Spanx, which was basically she did the same thing of selling one-on-one with people, seeing how they reacted to figure out all the different pieces of what became Spanx.

是的。而且她 famously 解决了自己的问题。

Yeah. And she solved her own problem famously.

是的。就是撕掉了她的连裤袜。我想那是故事。因为她现在就需要。我想是，是的，她要去参加活动。所以那是个很酷的例子。

Yes. Just tore off her pantyhose. I think that's the story. Just because she needed it now. I think it was like yeah, she's going to event. So that's a cool example.

你有这个——我们会多聊这个，但你有这个“万福玛利亚”方法的概念。谈谈那个。

You have this—we're going to talk more about this, but you have this idea of the Hail Mary approach. Talk about that.

所以“万福玛利亚”，我们一直在说顺利路径。你找到某个东西，你和人们交谈，他们说：“哦天哪，是的，这正是我需要的。”很多时候这不会发生。你会得到那种不温不火的感觉。所以我倾向于发现，这也是一个机会，我称之为“抛出万福玛利亚”，就是：好吧，这似乎不是个事儿。你待办清单上有没有什么你现在愿意付钱让我做的，比如你愿意付钱请人从你盘子里拿走的？那就是一个开放式的万福玛利亚。我实际上见过不少初创公司完全转型并从万福玛利亚中起飞，这真的很有趣。有一家初创公司，他们试图向政府销售申请人跟踪系统，他们和某人通电话，那人说：“是的，有点意思。”但在万福玛利亚问题之后，是的，我实际上愿意付钱让你解决的是这个职位描述的东西，现在就要。那成了他们的第一份合同。那成了他们的第一个客户，从那以后他们增长超快。

So the Hail Mary, so we've been talking about the happy path here. You find something, you're talking with people and they're like, 'Oh my gosh, yeah, this is exactly what I need.' A lot of the time that's not going to happen. You're going to get that kind of lukewarm feel. And so what I've tended to find is that's also an opportunity to what I call throw the Hail Mary, which is okay, this doesn't seem to be a thing. Is there anything on your to-do list that you would pay me to do right now, like that you would pay somebody to take off your plate? And that's just an open-ended Hail Mary. I've actually seen quite a few startups totally pivot and take off from the Hail Mary, which has been really interesting. There's one startup they were trying to sell an applicant tracking system into governments and they had a call with somebody and the person was like, 'Yeah, that's kind of interesting.' But after the Hail Mary question, yeah, what I'd actually pay you to solve is this like job description thing right now. And that became their first contract. That became their first customer and they've grown super fast since then.

太棒了。所以这里的建议就是，有时候不妨直接问：我们能为你解决什么问题？

That's awesome. So the advice here is just sometimes feel free to just ask what problem can we solve for you?

是的。是的。这引出了如何思考销售。好吧，我就简单说一点，如果有趣我们可以深入，但作为一个超级内向和过度思考者，我总是有点害怕销售。就像感觉压力很大。嗯，就像我需要说服你买。所以那个问题感觉不舒服。但如果你在自己脑子里重新框定：我只是看看他们是否需要帮助解决任何卡住的事情。如果他们不需要，那没关系。但如果他们需要，酷。我们可以探索我是否能帮忙。然后这就会改变你对销售的态度。

Yeah. Yeah. And that like leads to how to think about sales. Well, I'll just give a little and we can dig into this if it's interesting, but like I always was kind of nervous to sell as a mega introvert and overthinker. Like it just feels like a lot of pressure. Um, and it like I need to convince you to buy. And so that question feels uncomfortable. But if you kind of reframe it in your own head of I'm just seeing if they need help with anything that they are stuck on. And if they don't, that's fine. But if they do, cool. We can explore if it if I can help. Then uh it kind of changes your orientation towards sales.

我和你处境相同。这是很好的思考方式。我只是在试着解决某人的问题。为什么这么难？在我们进入下一步之前，也就是获得你的第一次销售电话，基本上找到你不认识的人交谈，人们在想点子时有没有什么反模式，或者信号，或者陷阱？

I am in the same boat as you. And that's a really nice way of thinking about it. I'm just trying to solve someone's problem. Why is it so hard? Before we get to the next step, which is getting your first sales call, finding basically finding someone to talk to that you don't already know, are there any anti-patterns or just kind of signals or just like traps people fall into when they're coming up with ideas?

是的，无限多，但我见过的主要的、真正残酷的是，觉得自己需要先把它建出来。所以，你想到一个点子，你会想，我觉得这还没准备好或者我觉得人们得看到才能理解，然后你就埋头去建。现在有了 AI，你可以在几周内而不是几个月内把这种冲动释放掉。但是，你不想——你想尽快面对现实的冷风。所以不要推迟那些你能真正找到拉力的客户对话。

Yeah, the infinite, but the main ones that I have seen that are like really really brutal are feeling like you need to build it yourself first. So, you come up with an idea and you're like, I don't think this is ready for prime time or I think people have to see it to get it and then you go heads down and build it. Now, now with AI, you can kind of get that out of your system in a hopefully a couple weeks instead of, you know, months or not. But, uh, you do not—you want to face the cold wind of reality as soon as possible. And so don't delay the customer conversations where you can actually find pull.

你也不喜欢设计合作伙伴，这没问题。多说点，因为找设计合作伙伴通常是标准建议。

You're also not a fan of design partners which is okay. Say more because this is typically very standard advice to find design partners.

是的。我不知道，也许在某些情况下有帮助。我还没见过它有帮助。

Yeah. I don't know, maybe in some context it's helpful. I have yet to see it help be helpful.

我几乎每次看到有人用设计合作伙伴，情况都是：你招募了一个设计合作伙伴，他口头上“认同”你的产品愿景，给了一堆反馈，却从来不买你的产品。他们从不购买，然后你意识到他们所有的反馈都只是在扮演史蒂夫·乔布斯，像是“我要帮帮这家初创公司”，而不是“我有一件真正想完成的事”。你想想，那些真正有重要事情要完成的人，他们不想当设计合作伙伴。他们只想把那件事做成。

What I've seen basically every single time I've seen somebody with a design partner is that you recruit a design partner who quote unquote buys into your vision for the product, and they give a bunch of feedback and never buy from you. They never buy, and you realize that all of their feedback was just them playing Steve Jobs, like 'I'm going to help this startup' versus 'I have something I'm actually trying to get done.' And if you think about it, the people who actually have something really important they're trying to get done, they don't want to be a design partner. They just want that thing done.

我很喜欢这个观点。好，所以你的建议是不要设立一堆设计合作伙伴，然后我们会走一遍你真正推荐的流程。好，我想先想想这个“想出点子”的阶段。核心时刻是基于亲身实践、与你要帮助的人共同生活而获得的某种洞察。我听过一个词来描述这个想法——我想是 Floodgate 的一位风投用的——你基本上是在寻找一个“赚来的秘密”。是的。而你的建议是，找到赚来的秘密的方式要么是你在某家公司亲身经历过，比如亚马逊给出的 AWS 例子，要么是你在一线跟处理问题的人并肩工作，寻找他们遇到的问题。

I love that. Okay. So your advice is don't set up a bunch of design partners, and we'll go through the process you actually recommend. Okay. So, I guess just to think about this coming up with an idea step. The core moment is some insight based on being hands-on living with the people that you will be helping. The term I've heard to describe this idea—I think it was a VC at Floodgate that uses this—you're basically looking for an earned secret. Yes. And your advice here is the way to find an earned secret is either you have lived it at a company, say Amazon gave this AWS example, or you're on the ground working side by side with the people dealing with it and just looking for problems that they have.

对，对，对。方法其实不太重要。它可能在一个 IASCA 静修营里降临到你身上。你从任何地方都可能获得那个秘密，但最有可能真正奏效的是亲自动手、从现实中而非理论中学习。

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And the method kind of doesn't matter. It might come to you in an IASCA retreat. You could get that secret from anywhere, but the things that are most likely to actually work are getting your hands dirty and learning it from reality versus from theory.

那就顺着这条线说，假设有一个饼图，显示你合作过的比如 50 家公司，他们的点子来自哪里。饼图中最大的几块会是什么？

So just to follow that thread, say there's like a pie chart of the say 50 companies you've worked with where their idea came from. What would be like the biggest chunks of the pie chart?

我会说 10% 是自身经验，90% 是去获得第一手经验。其中，有些公司是先卖了错误的产品才弄清楚什么是对的产品。但大多数实际上都是亲自去做那件事。

I would say 10% own experience, 90% going and getting firsthand experience. And within that, it's been a bit of some of them sold the wrong product to figure out what the right product was. But most of them actually go and do the thing firsthand.

那 IASCA 静修营占多少百分比？没地方放这个了。

And then what percentage IASCA retreat? There's no room for that.

100%。这是我给你建议的强制部分。那就是拉力假设。

100%. That's mandatory as part of me advising you. That's the pull hypothesis.

好，太好了。那么假设此时你有了一个拉力假设。有迹象表明这里可能有些非常好的东西。在我看来，下一个阶段是找到可以交谈并销售的人。所以基本上是拿下第一次销售电话。谈谈你如何拿下那个电话以及大概会发生什么，然后我们再谈实际进行电话。但在那之前，先说说找到可以交谈的人。

Okay, sweet. Okay, so say at this point you've got a pull hypothesis. There's signs that maybe there's something really good here. The next phase in my eyes is finding someone to talk to and sell it to. So basically landing a first sales call. Talk about how you go about landing that call and what happens kind of, and then we'll talk about actually running the call. But before we get there, just like finding people to talk to.

对，这个有意思。我的目标其实是每天与潜在客户进行两到三次对话。但要做到这一点，你得先获得第一次对话。你可以做暖介绍，所有那些都可以。我们只谈如果你没有任何这些资源，需要冷启动让人们跟你交谈的情况。我通常建议创始人开始的方式是，直接在 LinkedIn 或通过电子邮件联系你的潜在客户，用非常特定的信息，而不是“嘿，你有 XYZ 痛点吗，你想买我们改变游戏规则的解决方案吗”——你在网上找到的任何模板都不会得到任何回复，除了“别烦我”。所以在这个阶段我称之为创始人魔法式外联，基本上就是“你很有趣，我很有趣。我们聊聊看。”这完全可以接受。比如我帮助过的一家初创公司，他们的信息是：“嘿，Snoop Dogg 投资了我们，我想你也会觉得有趣。你愿意聊聊吗？”这是一条有趣的信息。每个人都有自己的版本。就像每个听这个节目的人或每个创始人都有可以发送的有趣信息，你不必在信息中说服他们购买你的产品。你只是让他们和你交谈。这个拉力存在于他们的待办事项清单上。所以信息对此不做任何事。它只是让他们和你交谈。所以就说些有趣的事情，促使他们与你见面。

Yeah, this is a fun one. So my goal is actually I want to have two to three conversations per day with potential customers. But to get there, you have to first get your first conversation. So you can do warm intros, you can do all that kind of stuff. We'll just talk about if you don't have any of that and you need to get people to talk to you cold. The way I typically recommend founders start is to just reach out to your potential customers on LinkedIn or via email, and it's with a very specific kind of message that is not a 'hey do you have XYZ pain points, would you like to buy our game-changing solution'—like no template you get online is going to get you any responses except for like 'leave me alone.' And so I call it founder magic kind of outreach at this stage, which is basically like 'you're interesting, I'm interesting. Let's chat and see.' And this is totally acceptable. Like one of the startups that I helped, their message was, 'Hey, Snoop Dogg invested in us and I thought you'd find it interesting too. Would you be open to chat?' That's a fun message. Everyone has their own version of that. Like everyone who listens to this or everyone who's a founder has an interesting message you can send, and you don't have to convince them in the message to buy your product. You just get them to talk with you. This pull exists out there on their to-do list. And so the message doesn't do anything about that. It's just to get them to talk to you. So just say something interesting to cause them to meet with you.

好，这真的很有帮助。所以你的建议是不要精心制作完整的价值主张推销、问题识别。不要告诉他们你将解决多少痛苦。就像用一些有趣的东西引起他们的注意。是的。Snoop Dogg 的例子很棒。还有其他例子吗？还有其他思考什么可能对某人有趣的方式吗？

Okay, this is really helpful. So your advice here is don't craft like a whole value prop pitch problem identification. Don't tell them how much pain you're going to solve. It's just like get their attention with something interesting. Yes. The Snoop Dogg example is awesome. Any other examples? Any other kind of ways of thinking about what might be interesting to someone?

我见过各种各样的。随机的比如：“嘿，我博士辍学了，现在在为内容营销人员做东西，对吧？”就像某种足够有趣但并非超级神奇的东西。你可以有——我见过各种各样的，从“我曾是 Sam Altman 的幕僚长”，对吧？你知道，如果任何人发送那条信息，那会非常有效。信息其余部分说什么都不重要。“我觉得你会感兴趣，愿意聊聊吗。”所以，就是找到一些有趣的东西，值得与他们对话。

There's been a variety of ones that I've seen. Random ones that are like, 'Hey, I dropped out of my PhD and I'm now working on something for content marketers, right?' Like something that's just kind of interesting enough there that's not super magical. You can have—there's a variety of different things I've seen from 'I was Sam Altman's chief of staff,' right? That, you know, if anybody sends that message, that will work quite well. It doesn't matter what the rest of the message says. 'I thought you'd be interesting and open to chat.' And so, it's finding something interesting that's like worth a conversation with them.

是的。我想说的是，这也真的取决于你的最终客户，因为如果你向比如 HVAC 公司外联，说“嘿，我是 Sam Altman 的前幕僚长，觉得你可能觉得有趣”，他们会说“哥们，我完全不知道这条信息里的词是什么意思”。所以可以是“嘿，我高中时在我家的管道公司工作，现在我正在做这种有趣的东西。觉得你可能觉得有趣。你愿意聊聊吗？”

Yeah. Like what I'd say is it really depends on your end customer too because if you're doing outreach to like for example HVAC companies saying hey I'm Sam Altman's former chief of staff thought you might find it interesting we're going to say buddy I have no idea what the words in this message mean. So it could be like hey I was at my dad like I worked at my family's plumbing company in in high school and now I'm do working on this kind of uh interesting thing. Thought you might find it interesting. Would you be open to chat?

呃，一个隐含的元素是保持非常简短。听起来就像一两句话。

Uh, an implicit element of this is keep it very short. Sounds like it's just like a sentence or two.

是的。

Yeah.

好。那么你怎么看 AI 给一大群人发邮件， versus 单独联系并思考每个人的独特信息？

Okay. And then what's your take on uh AI emailing a bunch of people versus individually reaching out and thinking about some unique message per person?

在这个阶段我还没见过 AI 个性化奏效。通常它做的是告诉他们一些他们已经知道自己知道的事情，他们会觉得那看起来像是 Claude 写的。所以我不通常推荐那样。我也没看到个性化在这里特别重要。这些信息——我说过我会发送的完整信息。你实际上不需要在其中加入大量个性化，或者像“嘿，我要去 X 会议。我们会做推介。你愿意聊聊吗？”像这样的东西，完全不需要任何个性化就足够好了。

I have not seen AI personalization work at this stage. Usually what it does is it tells them something they already know about themselves and they're like that looks like Claude wrote it. And so I don't usually recommend that. I also haven't seen personalization be super important here. These messages that I like—I said the entire message that I would send. You don't need to actually have a ton of personalization in it or like 'hey I'm going to X conference. We're going to be pitching. Would you be open to chat?' Like something like that can be good enough without any personalization at all.

你分享的所有例子都非常简单，与他们无关，基本上只是说些有趣的事情。

All the examples you shared are very simple and don't have anything to do with them and just say something interesting basically.

你不推荐的是基础做法。对，这个想法是，你不是要立刻向他们推销。你只是想约个电话。

And what you don't recommend is basic. Yeah. The idea, you're not trying to sell them immediately. You just want to have a call.

对。在电话里，我们会看看你有没有拉力。如果你有，你就会把它变成销售电话。如果你没有，我做什么都改变不了。

Yeah. And on the call, we'll see if you have pull. If you do, you're going to turn it into a sales call. If you don't, nothing I do is going to change that.

好的。你应该从多少封邮件或 LinkedIn 帖子开始？假设你刚开始尝试找一些电话。

Okay. How many emails slash LinkedIn posts should you start with? Say you're just getting started to try to find some calls.

对。我倾向于从 LinkedIn 开始，因为你和我喜欢交谈的那种人，他们的 LinkedIn 很有趣。所以，如果你联系某人，他们会说：“哦，好的。那会起到很大作用。你可以直接开始。”所以，你每周可以在 LinkedIn 上添加 100 到 150 人，就这么做。每天添加 20 人，然后当他们接受连接请求时给他们发消息。如果你发送，比如你每周联系 100 人，或者你发送 150 个请求，我的典型目标是其中 30% 到 40% 的人应该接受你的连接请求，然后其中 30% 到 50% 应该回复，其中一部分人应该答应，大多数人应该说“当然，为什么不呢”。

Yeah. So, I tend to start on LinkedIn because the kind of person who you and I like talk to, they have interesting LinkedIn. And so, if you're reaching out to someone, they're going to say, "Oh, okay. That so that's going to do a lot of lifting. You can just get started." And so, you can add 100 150 people on LinkedIn per week, go for that. Add 20 a day and then message them when they accept the connection request. And if you're sending like if you're connecting with I don't know let's say you connect with a 100 people per week or you you send 150 um my typical targets for that are like 30 to 40% of them should accept your connection request and then of them 30 to 50 should% should reply and a subset of them should say yes the majority of them should say yeah sure why not.

好的，这是一个很棒的基准。所以如果你没达到那个水平，基本上你的有趣邮件就不起作用。你应该找一些更有趣的

Okay that's an awesome benchmark. So if you're not at that level, basically your interesting email is not is not working. You should find some more interesting

可能是你的个人资料，如果人们不接受你的请求。他们可能会看着你说：“你看起来不像我应该接受这个请求的人。”如果你只有 30% 到 40% 的接受率，然后人们不回复。

is is it's could be your profile if people aren't accepting your request. Like they might look at you and say, "You don't look like somebody I should accept this requesting if you're dead 30 to 40% accepts and then people aren't replying."

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那么，假设你约到了一个电话，你要做一个销售电话，比如你的第一个。你对在销售电话中做得很好有什么建议？

So, say you've landed a call and you're going to do a sales call, say your first one. What is your advice for doing a great job on the on the sales call?

销售电话主要有两个步骤。有拉力发现步骤，然后是我们可能如何帮助的概念性推介步骤。所以销售电话背后的理论再次是，如果你有拉力，你会把东西从我手中抢走。我不会像超级蚂蚁一样， wired up 准备说服你购买。不，只是如果你有拉力，你会说服我让你购买。

mostly two steps in a sales call. There's the pull discovery step and then there's the kind of conceptual pitch of how we might help step. And so the uh the theory behind a sales call is again it's like if you have pull you're going to rip the thing out of my hands. I don't come into this call like wired up ready to try to convince you to buy like super ant. No, it's just if you have pull, you're going to convince me to let you buy.

所以我以轻松、兴奋交谈的氛围来处理这件事。让我们看看我是否能帮到你。所以我有一个非常具体的销售电话结构，我推荐用于进入发现阶段然后过渡出发现阶段。基本上，你开始电话时说：“嘿，非常感谢你抽出时间。我很好奇。我确定有很多人联系你。你为什么今天接我的电话？”这是让他们说：“你知道，你提到了 AI 智能体，我一直在思考这个，我一直在等待，我看了你的网站。”不管是什么，他们就在那里为你填写了整个拉力框架。那很理想。然后你可以说：“哦，那很有趣。让我——我可以问几个后续问题吗？”但大多数时候他们会说：“我不知道。你联系了我。很兴奋听到你要说什么。”说：“太好了。”你利用他们刚刚告诉你的话，说：“好的，太好了。这听起来像是今天电话的好议程。我们可以这样做。那听起来对你合适吗？”得到他们对议程的认可。然后你通过说：“太好了。好的，在我们讨论你议程上的那些项目之前，嗯，你介意我问你几个问题来更好地了解你的背景吗？”来赢得问他们关于拉力的发现问题的权利。这样你就赢得了提问的权利。这对他们来说不像是审讯，因为如果是的话，他们什么都不会告诉你。

And so I approach this with the vibe of just like waned back, excited to chat. Let's let's see if I might be able to help you. And so I have a very specific structure of a sales call that I recommend for getting into discovery and then transitioning out of discovery. Basically that you start the call, hey, thanks so much for taking the time. I'm curious. I'm sure you get a bunch of people reaching out to you. like why did you take the call with me today? That's a chance for them to say, you know, you mentioned AI agents and I've been thinking about this and I've just been waiting and I looked at your website. I whatever whatever it winds up being and they they fill out the entire poll framework for you right there. That's ideal. And then you can say, "Oh, that's interesting. Let me can I ask a couple follow-ups?" But most of the time they'll say, "I don't know. You reached out to me. Excited to hear what you have to say." Say, "Great." You use what they have just told you and say, "Okay, great. That sounds like a great agenda for today's call. We can do that. That does that sound good to you?" Get their thumbs up on the agenda. And then you earn the right to ask them some discovery questions about their poll by saying, "Great. Okay, before we get to those items on your, you know, on our agenda, um, do you mind if I ask you a few questions to better understand your context?" And that way you've earned the right to ask questions. it does not feel like an interrogation to them because if it does uh they're not telling you anything.

好的，几个战术问题。一个是，你应该尝试让这个电话多长？你的邀请应该多长？然后演示适合放在哪里？你推荐在这个电话中演示还是单独做一个电话？

Okay, a few tactical questions. One is just how long should you try to make this call? How long should your invite be for? And then where does where does a demo fit in? Do you recommend demo on this call or doing a separate call for that?

对。所以，这几乎总是日历上的 30 分钟电话。只是我发现更小的日历块他们不会在日历上看到，所以他们不会出现。嗯，所以 30 分钟，然后关于做演示是视情况而定的。所以如果你非常早期，你可能没有演示可展示。所以嗯，但 later on 你可能会在第一个电话中有一个非常短的演示。

Yeah. So, this is almost always a 30 minute call on the calendar. Just um I found smaller calendar blocks uh they don't see on their calendar and so they don't show. Um and so 30 minutes and then iffy on doing a demo. So if you're super early, you probably don't have a demo to show. And so um but later on you might have a very short demo in in your first call.

我想是因为我在想我和 Jen 的对话，她的建议是等待做演示，但那是企业销售类的产品，不像早期阶段只是完全假设阶段。

I I guess because I'm thinking about the Jen conversation I had and her advice is wait to do the demo but that's an enterprise sales sort of product not like an early stage just full hypothesis phase.

对，完全完全

Yeah totally totally

好的，明白了。这次会议进行得顺利的标志是什么？是那种倾身向前、从你那里拉过来的感觉吗？

okay got it. What's a sign that the this meeting went well? Is it this kind of leaning in pulling it from you feeling?

对。所以，要么你能够发现拉力，要么你能够说：“好吧，你完全没有拉力。帮我理解为什么这不相关，什么相关。”所以你离开时要么有一个填好的拉力框架：“好的，我理解这个人的拉力，他们试图拉。”要么你理解为什么他们没有拉力。

Yeah. So so it's kind of you're able to surface pull or you're able to say okay you don't have pull at all. help me understand why this isn't relevant to you, what is and so you come away with a either filled out poll framework of okay, I understand this person's poll and they are trying to pull or you understand why they don't have pull.

你应该做多少个这样的电话，然后才觉得“好吧，这里没有拉力，是时候继续前进了”？

How many of these calls should you do before you're like okay there's no pull here time to move on.

我没有一个硬性的，我倾向于做的是，如果你有五个电话，每个人都向后靠，你什么也没学到，那么就有迹象表明出了问题。如果你有——我见过人们做数百个电话，他们仍然不——所以他们做五个，然后检查一下，看看你从电话中学到了什么。那里有拉力吗？我们学到了什么有趣的东西吗？比如我刚刚帮助的一个初创公司，他们做了五个关于银行业的电话，他们只是感觉没什么。但他们从其中一个人那里得到了一个介绍，说：“是的，这似乎与我不相关，但你可以考虑国防公司。”他们得到了一个进入那个领域的介绍。他们对国防一无所知。在第一次对话中，国防领域的人说：“天哪，你是认真的吗？”他们说：“好吧，也许这里有些东西。”他们改变了他们的拉力假设。感觉你框架和方法的一个很大部分就是对自己非常诚实地判断这里是否有东西。

I don't have a hard like what I tend to do is if you have five calls and everybody's leaned back and you learn nothing then there's a sign that something's wrong. If you have and I've seen people do like hundreds of calls where they still don't like they so do five and then check in and see what you've learned from the calls. Was there any pull there? Did we learn anything interesting? Like I a startup I was just helping out, they had done like five calls into banking and they just felt nothing. But they got an intro from one of the people said, "Yeah, this doesn't seem relevant to me, but you might consider defense companies." And they got an intro into that. They know nothing about defense. And in the first conversation, defense, the person's like, "Holy, are you serious?" And they're like, "Okay, maybe there's something here." And they changed their poll hypothesis. It feels like a big part of this of your of your framework and approach is to just like be brutally honest with yourself whether there's something here.

我猜很多创始人都会特别兴奋、坚信这是真的，而你的方法就是：这里有一种方式去验证它，并且非常真实地面对什么有效、什么无效。

I imagine a lot of founders are just so excited and convinced this is real, and your approach is just, here's a way to validate that and be really real with what's working or not.

对。我觉得就是把它想成：我们销售是为了学习，而不是真的要推什么东西。不是去推。我们要去学习，看看他们会不会尝试购买。如果不会，很好，我们学到了东西，可以继续迭代。如果会，好，太棒了，也许我们真有点东西了，看看它会不会重复出现。

Yeah. I think it's thinking of it as we're selling to learn, not really to push something. Not to push. We're going to learn and we're seeing if they try to buy. If they don't, cool. We've learned something. We can keep iterating from there. If they do, okay, great. Now we might have something. Let's see if it repeats.

把它叫作“拉力”这个想法太聪明了，因为你总听说产品市场契合就是你能感受到拉力。你被拉着走。这块巨石在把你往下拉，风在推你。

The whole idea of calling this pull is so smart, because you always hear product-market fit is you're feeling pull. You're feeling pulled. This boulder is pulling you down. The wind is pushing you.

对。

Yeah.

所以它不只是你要找的东西的首字母缩写，还是一个提醒：你要找的是拉力，是某种在拉你的东西。

And so not only is it this acronym of what you look for, but it's this reminder. What you're looking for is pull. Something pulling.

对。你也能感觉到：我现在是不是在推？我是不是在说服？那是个危险信号，说明要么你脑子里、要么对话里有什么不对劲。那就，好，我们来弄清楚那是什么。

Yeah. And you can also tell, do I feel like I'm pushing right now? Do I feel like I'm convincing? That's a red flag that something either in your mind or in the conversation is off. And like, okay, cool. Let's figure out what that is.

当你想到一场好的销售电话时，有没有什么例子？那种感觉、那种样子、那种推销会是什么样的？

Is there an example that comes to mind when you think about a good sales call, what that kind of feels like, looks like, what a pitch would be?

对。你要做的是再次从他们身上引出拉力。比如他们说，我想做个网站，但那种典型的点击式网站设计工具对我来说太费劲了，对吧？那你就有一点拉力了。你算是把它从他们身上引出来了，他们描述了这一点。有意思的是，一旦你有了拉力，你的推销就很简单。你在这里不是要描述一个宏大的产品愿景，也不是要讲你对问题的理论。你知道他们想做 X，但因为 Y 被卡住了。所以这种情况下你的推销就是：好，听起来你在找一个能让你做网站、又不用忍受点击式工具那些麻烦的东西，大致是这样吗？你用非常非常小、非常简单的方式去描述，而不是用很大的方式。你用小方式描述，他们说，对，听起来是这样。那它到底怎么运作？多跟我说说。他们在从你身上拉出更多信息，这时候你就知道自己开始摸到门道了。

Yeah. So what you're trying to do is you're trying to get again the pull out of them. And so they say, I'm trying to make a website, but one of those typical point-and-click website design things are just too much effort for me, right? So you have something about pull there. You've kind of pulled that out of them. They've described that. And so the kind of interesting thing is that once you have pull, your pitch is quite simple. What you're not trying to do here is you're not trying to describe this massive product vision or your theory of the problem. You know that they're trying to do X but blocked because of Y. And so your pitch in that case is, okay, so it sounds like you're looking for something to make a website without all the hassle of a point-and-click thing. Is that roughly it? And you describe it in a really small and simple way. Not a really big way. You describe it in a small way and they say, yeah, that sounds like it. How exactly does that work? Tell me more. They're pulling more information out of you, and that's when you know you're starting to be on to something.

你会在脑子里过一遍那个拉力框架的四个要点吗？就是想着：好，这真的是他们现在需要、而且不可避免的事吗？他们的替代方案是什么？把所有这些都过一遍？

And are you in your head thinking through the pull framework of these four points and just thinking through like, okay, is this actually something they need right now and unavoidable? Are there, what are their alternatives? And kind of thinking through all that?

对，这些其实也是我会问的问题。比如，如果他们一开始没告诉我，我就会问“你为什么接这个电话”，然后我会问一个类似这样的问题：有没有什么跟，比如说你们的 QA 流程相关的事，是你们想做、但用现有工具、方法、团队之类的做不到的？这个问题里包含了拉力的所有要素，这样他们就能说，哦对，其实我们一直想自动化端到端测试，但用现有工具做不到。然后如果他们给了我一些要素，我心里就有那个框架了。我知道很多人其实会在通话时把框架放在一个文档里，实时填写。然后发现，我觉得我没有那个 U。接着你就问一个问题：好，但如果你们现在不做这个，可以吗？是有什么原因必须现在做，还是可以以后再做？

Yeah, those are actually the questions I will ask too. Which is like, if they don't tell me at the very beginning when I say why'd you take the call, then I'm asking a question that's kind of like, is there anything as it relates to, I don't know, your QA process that you're trying to do but you've been unable to do with your existing tools, methods, team, whatever, right? And so that question has all the elements of pull in it, so that they can then say, oh yeah, actually we've been trying to automate end-to-end testing but can't do it with our existing tools. And then if they give me some element there, then I have the framework in my mind. And I know a lot of people actually have the framework in a doc during the call and they're filling it out live. And it's like, I don't think I have the U. And then you ask a question, you're like, okay, but is it okay if you don't do that now? Is there some reason you have to do this now, or is this okay to do another time?

你几乎都不敢问。你会想，哦不，这行不通的。

And you're scared to almost ask. You're like, oh no, it's not going to work.

哦，最吓人的一个是说：那你，我肯定你们也看过其他方案吧？那些够好吗？对。然后听到他们说，其实对，我们自己就能做，而且够好了。但这能阻止你再次去推一个市场不想要的产品，然后花上你人生好几年去让它行得通。

Oh, and the scariest one is to say, well, what have you, I'm sure you've looked into other options. Are they good enough? Right. And to hear that one where they're like, actually yeah, we can do it ourselves and that's good enough. But it prevents you from again pushing a product the market doesn't want and just spending years of your life trying to make it work.

对。我看起来像 60 岁、其实才 35 岁，是有原因的，对吧？别硬推。

Yeah. There's a reason I look like I'm 60 and I'm 35, right? Like don't push.

你看起来很棒，Rob。你看起来很棒。滤镜。

You look great, Rob. You look great. Filters.

哦天哪。

Oh man.

这触及到一个我们其实还没谈到的具体挑战：要让人决定尝试新东西、购买新东西，你得跨过很多障碍。现状通常还行。他们有那么多优先事项，有那么多事要处理。要让人说“我想要这个，我现在就买”，这个门槛真的很高。而这个框架的想法就是跨过那道坎。

So this touches on a like we haven't actually addressed the specific challenge, which is that there's a lot you have to get over for people to decide to try something new and to buy something new. The status quo is generally fine. They have so many priorities. They have so many things they're dealing with. Just like the bar to get over for people to be like, I want this. I'm going to buy it now is really high. And the idea here of this framework is to get over that hump.

嗯，它是去找那些现状对他们来说不行的人，对吧？是去找那些人。你知道，大家都说改变很难之类的。你要找的是那些已经在尝试改变、不需要被说服的人。

Well, it's to find the people for whom the status quo is not okay, right? It's to find the people, you know, everyone says like change is hard and all this kind of stuff. Well, you're looking for the people who are already trying to change, who don't need convincing.

有一种说法是，你的产品必须比现有方案好 10 倍，才会有人在意。你觉得，你怎么看：好，这个更好，他们试过替代方案，没有一个能做到，或者有些能做到。那它得好多少，他们才会在意？还是说，只要好一点点也可以？

There's this idea that your product has to be 10 times better than the existing solution for anyone to care. Do you feel like, how do you think about, okay, this is better, they tried alternatives, none of them do it, or some of them do it. Okay, like how much better does this have to be for them to care? Or is it okay if it's just, you know, just a little bit better?

Jump 那个例子，我觉得那个面向财务顾问的 AI 笔记工具就是个好例子。它们比其他通用的 AI 笔记工具好多少？如果那些笔记工具干不成这活，而我们能干成，那它们就是无限好。它们解开了一个卡点。所以这就是我思考他们被现有方案卡得有多死的方式。所以我不知道，我不太确定 10 倍这个说法。那个东西在我脑子里不太成立。真正的问题是：他们是不是一根压紧的弹簧？当我出现时，他们怎么反应？

The example with Jump, I think again the AI note-taker for financial advisors is a good one. How much better are they than the other generic AI note-takers? Well, if those note-takers don't get the job done and we do, they are infinitely better. They unblock something. And so that's kind of how I think about how stuck are they with their existing options. And so I don't know, I don't know about 10x. Like, that thing doesn't quite register in my head. It's really, are they a coiled spring, and how do they respond when I show up?

我会想到像 Linear 这样跟 Jira 竞争的公司。我不知道你知不知道，你了解 Linear 吗？

So I think about a company like Linear who competes with Jira. I don't know if you know, do you know Linear?

知道。知道。知道。

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

我就是好奇，这能不能套进这个框架。据我理解，Linear 常常能赢过 Jira，就是因为体验就是更好。就是一种漂亮、顺滑、精心打磨的体验。所以他们赢了很多客户，因为用起来就是舒服，工程师真的很喜欢用它。

So just, I'm curious if it applies through this framework. So in my understanding, Linear wins over Jira often because the experience is just better. It's just like a beautiful, smooth, well-crafted experience. And so they win a lot of customers because it just feels nice and engineers really like using it.

你觉得这是通过拉力框架起作用的，还是有其他因素？

Do you feel like that works through the pull framework or is there something else going on there?

再次，如果我们用拉力框架来分析那种情况，那么必须成立的是：有某类人正在尝试进行问题跟踪，但他们在问题跟踪方面遇到了阻碍，而 Jira 的体验在某些方面阻止了他们以某种方式去做，使得 Linear 更好的体验对他们来说真正相关。对吧？我犯过这样的错误：把这个类比拿过来，然后说：‘好吧，那我就可以进入一个品类，用更好的用户体验、更好的体验，然后我会碾压它。’我在 HR 软件上试过，结果发现用户体验与买家无关，所以他们不在乎他们的系统看起来还停留在 Cobalt 时代什么的。所以在那里并不相关。但再次，拉力理论会说，在 Jira 与 Linear 的案例中，有某类人被 Jira 的体验所阻碍。我想拉力越强，所有这些事情发生得就越快。它增长得越快。我知道 Linear 花了很长时间才让人们使用它、信任它、切换过来。所以也许拉力没有那么强，因为没有那么多阻碍，而更多只是‘好吧，我可以更快地行动，更开心。’它花了更长时间。你是否发现拉力越强，公司增长得越快？

Again, if we use the pull framework to analyze that situation, what would have to be true is there's a certain kind of person who is trying to do their issue tracking, but they are blocked from doing something around issue tracking and something about Jira's experience is blocking them from doing it the way such that Linear's way better experience is actually relevant to them. Right? I've made the mistake of taking that analogy and being like, 'Okay, so I can just come into a category with way better UX, way better experience, and I'm going to crush it.' And I tried that in HR software and it turned out the user experience was not relevant to the buyer and so they didn't care that their systems look like they're still on Cobalt or whatever it is. So it wasn't relevant there. But again, the pull theory would say that in the case of Jira versus Linear, there was a kind of person who was blocked by Jira's experience. And I imagine the stronger the pull, the faster all this stuff happens. It grows. I know Linear took a long time to get people using it, to trust it, to switch. And so maybe the pull wasn't as strong because there wasn't as much of that blocking, and it was more of just like, 'Okay, I can just move faster, be happier.' It took longer. Do you find that the stronger the pull, the faster the company grows?

是的，我见过很多初创公司从零到 whatever，就像现在每个人都在从零到无限，超级快，这是因为他们找到了这些拉力口袋，人们会从他们手中抢走产品。现在人们看到这些 AI 推销，就会说：‘等一下，它能做 X，’然后基本上立刻购买。我见过这种情况在企业中发生。我见过一笔企业交易在两周内完成，就像那件事一样。在我成长的过程中，企业交易需要 18 个月。搞什么鬼？

Yeah, I've seen a bunch of startups where they go zero to whatever, like everyone now is going zero to infinity super fast, and it's because they have found these pockets of pull where people will rip a product out of their hands. And people will see these AI pitches now and it's like, 'Wait a second, it can do X,' and buy basically instantly. And I've seen that happen in enterprise. I saw an enterprise deal close in like two weeks and it's just like that thing did. When I was growing up, enterprise deals took 18 months. Like what the heck?

好的，那么让我们进入下一步。此时，你已经进行了第一次销售电话。我想下一步是完成交易。我感兴趣是因为这还很早。你可能甚至还没有产品。从‘好的，我现在想买它’到下一步，那是什么样子的？你接下来做什么？

Okay, so let's move on to the next step. So, at this point, you had your first sales call. I imagine the next step is closing the deal. And I'm interested because it's still early. You may not even have a product. What does that look like going from, 'Okay, I want to buy it now.' What do you do next?

是的。所以，这取决于交易规模，但你需要带着某种概念和某种计划回来。举个例子：我之前提到的制药公司，那家向制药公司销售的公司，他出现后，在介绍给制药高管时孤注一掷。制药高管说：‘哦天哪，非常感谢你问这个问题。我们目前的市场研究是哒哒哒哒。我们正在尝试。它太糟糕了。太慢了。’创始人说：‘好的，我甚至没有幻灯片，我是第一次听到这个。’所以听起来你在寻找更快的市场研究，看起来像你目前得到的研究，但有点，我不知道，就像在这些方面更好。大致对吗？高管说：‘是的，正是如此。’创始人说：‘好的，我们这样做吧。如果我几天后回来给你一个我认为可能是什么样子的模型，然后我们可以讨论这是否符合你真正想要的，然后决定我们是否想继续推进。’所以在这种情况下，没有幻灯片，什么都没有。去 vibe code 一个粗略的布局，得到一些反馈，说：‘好的，基于这个，你还需要知道什么来决定这是否是你想引入组织的合适选择？’说：‘是的，价格是多少？’然后有一个你可以用于价格的谈话轨道，但基本上就是这样。

Yeah. So, it's going to depend on the size of the deal, but you want to come back with some sort of a concept and some sort of a plan. And so, examples of this: the pharma company that I mentioned earlier, the company selling into pharma, he showed up and just threw a Hail Mary on an intro to a pharma exec. Pharma exec was like, 'Oh my gosh, thank you so much for asking. Our current market research is da da da da. We're trying. It's just so bad. It's so slow.' And the founder was like, 'Okay, I don't even have slides here. I'm just hearing this for the first time.' And so it sounds like you're looking for faster market research that looks like the current research you're getting but kind of, I don't know, like it's just better in these kinds of ways. Is that roughly right? And the exec was like, 'Yes, that's exactly it.' And so the founder is like, 'Okay, let's do this. What if I come back to you in a couple days with a kind of mockup of what I think that could look like and then we can discuss if that fits what you're really looking for and then decide if we want to move forward.' And so in that case, no slides, no nothing. Goes and vibe codes a kind of rough layout of what this would look like, gets some feedback on it, says, 'Okay, based on that, is there anything else you need to know to decide whether this is a fit that you want to bring into your organization?' Says, 'Yeah, what's the price?' And then there's a talk track you can use for price, but that's basically it.

好的。多告诉我一些关于这个价格谈话轨道的事情。

Okay. Tell me more about this price talk track.

是的。所以拉力框架的有趣之处在于它可以帮助你设定定价的边界。那么完成项目的价值是什么，或者替代方案的成本是什么？所以 L 的，那么更快获得市场研究的价值是什么，或者你目前花在市场研究顾问上的成本是多少？两者都可以告诉你：‘好的，市场研究的价值大约是 X。顾问的成本是，我不知道，每年 5 万美元。’所以这给了我一个粗略的边界来说：‘好的，如果我们每年收费 5 万美元，和你目前的市场研究顾问价格一样呢？’它提供了一个价格框架，让你的潜在客户觉得直观。

Yeah. So the interesting thing about the pull framework is that it can help you set the bounds for pricing. So what's the value of getting the project done or what are the costs of the alternatives? So the L's, so what's the value of getting this market research faster or what is the cost you're currently spending with your market research consultants? Both of those can tell you, 'Okay, the value of market research is like X. The cost with consultants is, I don't know, $50,000 per year.' And so that gives me a rough boundary to say, 'Okay, what if we charged $50,000 a year, the same price as your current market research consultants?' It gives a frame on price that makes it intuitive to your potential customers.

太棒了。好的。所以你写到的这个成交步骤，大致有两个部分。一个是契合度，就是这是否合适，然后就是一堆项目管理来让交易完成。所以我认为我们已经花了很多时间在契合度上。项目管理方面，有什么重要的要谈吗？

Awesome. Okay. So the way you've written about this closing step, there's kind of two parts. There's the fit of just like is this a fit and then it's just a bunch of project management to get the deal closed. So we've spent a lot of time I think on the fit. The project management, is there anything there important to talk about?

是的。所以这是，你和 Jen 做了一期很棒的节目，和 Jen 做了几期很棒的关于销售流程的节目。所以在更大的交易中，企业交易中，冠军有拉力并决定‘是的，我想要这个。’然后你必须做一系列大约 17 个演示。你必须在四个委员会面前卑躬屈膝。就像你必须做所有这些事情。对于较小的交易，你不需要做那种事情。可能只是 CEO 说：‘是的，酷。下一步是你给我发 Stripe 链接，我们安排一次入职电话。’所以项目管理步骤将取决于情况。我通常对大型组织中的项目管理的建议是与买家、与冠军进行对话，说：‘好的，酷，这是你待办事项清单上的项目。这需要在什么时候展示结果？’他们会说：‘哦，肯定是明年第一季度。’‘好的，酷，那是一个强制函数。’你从那里倒推，说：‘好的，鉴于我们需要在第一季度上线，从现在到那时需要发生哪些步骤，以便我们能够部署并在那时展示结果？’这是销售过程中所有专业步骤的强制函数。

Yeah. So this is, you did a great episode with Jen, a great couple episodes with Jen on the sales process. And so in bigger deals, enterprise deals, there's like the champion has pull and decides, 'Yes, I want this.' And then you have to do a set of like 17 demos. You have to genuflect in front of four committees. Like there's all of these things that you have to do. For smaller deals, you don't have to do that kind of stuff. It might just be the CEO who's like, 'Yeah, cool. Next step is you send me the Stripe link and we schedule an onboarding call.' And so the project management step will depend. My typical recommendation for project management in larger organizations is to have a conversation with the buyer, with the champion, to say, 'Okay, cool, this is the project on your to-do list. When does this need to be showing results by?' They'll say, 'Oh, definitely Q1 next year.' 'Okay, cool, that's a forcing function.' You work backwards from there to say, 'Okay, given that we need to be live Q1, what are the set of steps that need to happen between now and then so we can be deployed and showing results by then?' And that is a forcing function for all of the pro steps in the sales process.

太棒了。所以基本上就是问我们什么时候需要展示成功，以便你们全面推出，然后从那里倒推。好的。此时很多人会创建基本上设计合作伙伴的安排，他们会说：‘好的酷，我们会和你一起构建这个。我们会边做边想。我们不会收费。’根据你之前的观点，你不喜欢设计合作伙伴。我想你这里的建议就是直接销售。

Awesome. So basically asking when do we need to show success for this to be a thing that you all roll out and then working backwards from that. Okay. At this point a lot of people would create basically design partnership arrangements where they're like, 'Okay cool, we'll build this with you. We'll figure it out as we go. We won't charge you.' Per your earlier point, you were not into design partnerships. I imagine your advice here is just like sell it directly.

不要试图免费给他们。不要建立某种合作关系。

Don't try to give them to for free. Don't set up some kind of partnership thing.

是的。是的。为什么？嗯，为什么要自毁前程呢？

Yeah. Yeah. Why? Well, why shoot yourself in the foot?

再说一次，不这样做的原因是，你会发现这不会带来最好的、真正能卖出去并起作用的东西。建立这种设计合作关系。

And again, the reason not to is because it just you find that doesn't lead to the best to stuff that actually sells and works. Building this kind of design partnership relationship.

是的。如果他们像这样，它基本上把一些东西从“我现在需要解决这个问题”变成“好吧，现在我在帮你构建你的产品”。就像，我们在这里做什么？所以这对大多数真正有需求的人来说是一个负面信号，而对没有需求的人来说是一个正面信号。

Yeah. If they're like it it basically takes something from I need to to solve this right now to like okay now I'm helping you build your product. like where what are we doing here? So it it's a negative signal to the most to people with who actually have pole and it's a positive signal to people who don't.

太棒了。好的，这完全说得通。就像如果有需求，就顺势而为，你需要是的。

Awesome. Okay, that totally makes sense. Like if there's pull just go with it, you need to Yeah.

是的。你可以卖一些东西，比如，你知道，你可能还没有一个完整的平台准备好。你可以在早期卖一些更服务形态的东西。我见过很多初创公司这样做，他们卖，你知道，好吧，我们将有一个 AI 产品经理，可以做 XYZ 之类的事情。目前，它由我们提供，而这个东西在幕后工作。所以你可以这样构建，让他们不期待一个完整的平台，比如企业级平台下周就准备好。他们期待的是更服务形态的东西，你验证那里有真正的需求，并弄清楚实际要构建什么。同时以手动和自动的混合方式交付。

Yeah. And you can sell something that's like, you know, you might not have a full platform ready. You can sell something that's more service-shaped early on. I've seen a bunch of startups do that where they sell, you know, okay, we're going to have an AI product manager who can do XYZ kind of thing. For now, it's delivered by us while this thing is working behind the scenes. And so you can kind of frame it so they're not expecting a full platform that like enterprise-grade platform ready next week. They expect something more service-shaped and you kind of validate that there's real pull there and you figure out what the actual thing to build is. while delivering it a mix of manually and automated.

好的，这真的很有趣。这在播客中经常出现，尤其是在市场推广销售对话中。服务是一个很好的起点，这个想法历史上一直是个糟糕的主意，因为呃，担心的是你永远无法真正达到可以自动化的地步，你只是永远经营一家利润率糟糕的咨询公司。所以，你见过这种方法奏效，这个想法基本上是从人工做事情开始，然后慢慢围绕它构建产品来提高利润率。

Okay, that's really interesting. That's come up a lot on the podcast, especially with go to market sales conversations. This idea of services being a great place to start, which historically has been a terrible idea because uh the fear is you never actually get to a place where you can automate it and you're just running a consulting business forever with terrible margins. So, you've seen this work, this idea of starting with basically like humans doing the thing and then slowly building a product around it that increases margins.

是的，它肯定有缺点，对吧？你肯定可能会陷入一种服务业务之类的事情，但一切都有缺点。

Yeah, it definitely has downsides, right? You definitely can get stuck in a kind of service businesses kind of thing, but everything has downsides.

太棒了。是的。这个想法是 AI 会越来越多地做这些事情。部分原因是，随着人们做这些工作，你会越来越多地了解问题机会是什么等等。好的。嗯，快速回到价格问题。呃，传统上创始人害怕要求大数字并抛出，你知道，高价。呃，知道事情会变化，你会边做边学。对于第一次价格推销，有什么建议，应该抛出什么数字？

Awesome. Yeah. And the idea is AI kind of does more and more of this stuff. And part of it is you learn more and more of what uh what the problem opportunities are and things like that with people doing the work. Okay. Um going back to price real quick. Uh classically founders are afraid to ask for big numbers and throw out, you know, high prices. uh knowing that the stuff changes and you'll learn as you go. Any advice for that first price pitch of what number to throw out?

是的。所以早期我更多是在测试交易意愿而不是支付意愿。所以早期几个客户我不太在意定价。也就是说，我刚刚和一家公司合作，他们的第一笔交易是企业级的，他们有一个大型演示日即将到来，所以他们说：“我们如何从中获得尽可能多的收入，以便在演示日看起来像那样？”完全合理的事情。在这种情况下，你要做的是以一种不会让你被打脸的方式抛出一个数字。我推荐的具体方法是，几乎像使用案例研究一样，嘿，对这个案例研究做出反应。所以你会说，是的，当我们与其他人交谈时，他们每个人都以不同的方式定价。有些人，你知道，有时是一个 8 万美元的小项目，其他时候高达 100 万美元，对吧，这些是这里的杠杆，很多人最终在中间。你告诉我你是怎么想的？所以你做的不是像我在这一边向你提出定价，而是我们俩都在看一个例子，一个半真实的例子，你从别人那里听到的他们如何思考这个问题的例子，让他们对此呕吐。对此呕吐。我喜欢这个。

Yeah. So early on I'm really more testing willingness to transact versus willingness to pay. And so I don't care about pricing a ton in the early couple of customers. That said, I was just working with a company that's their first deal is enterprise and they've got a big demo day coming up and so they're like, "How do we get the most possible revenue out of this so we can look like that for demo day?" Totally valid thing to do. In that case, what you do is you throw out a number in a way that doesn't like get you slapped. And the specific approach that I'd recommend for that is um almost like using a case study as a hey react to this kind of case study. And so you'd say yeah when we talk to others the way they everyone's kind of done pricing differently. Some of them have been you know it's been sometimes it's been a small project for 80,000 other times it's been up to a million in terms of right and these are kind of the levers here and some people a lot of people wind up in the middle. You tell me how are you thinking about this? And so what you're doing is you're not like me on this side proposing pricing to you on this side. It's both of us looking at like an example, a kind of semi-real example of what you've heard from others as how they think about this and letting them them throw up on that. Throw up on that. I like that.

嗯，我知道这个案例研究概念实际上是整个框架的重要组成部分。我稍后会回到它，但好的。让我们谈谈下一步。假设你在 BF2 进行了销售电话。在你做的第一批销售电话之后，接下来会发生什么？

Um I know this case study concept is is actually an important part of this whole framework. I'm going to come back to it, but okay. So let's talk about the next step. So say you have the sales call in BF2. what kind of comes next after this first batch of sales calls that you're doing.

是的，这就是路径可能分叉的地方。所以希望你是对的，呃，这些人有需求。太好了。你现在有客户了，是时候交付并开始重复这个，尝试开始弄清楚如何自动化并系统化这个。你在正确的道路上。很多时候你会得到一些奇怪的回应。你了解到你认为不买很奇怪的人实际上买才奇怪。如果他们买了才奇怪。他们的行为方式没有需求。在这种情况下，我倾向于建议你只是分析。你回去回顾电话，你说：“好的，有人真的有需求吗？零？我们在这里学到了什么？”然后你制定一个新的假设并再次运行。明白了吗？想象大多数时候它不在那里。这是你的经验吗，或者在这个阶段成功与不成功的饼图是什么？

Yeah, this is where the paths might diverge. So hopefully you're right and uh these people have pull. Great. You now have customers time to deliver and start repeating this and try start figuring out how to automate things and and just systematize this. You're on the right path. A lot of the times you get kind of a weird set of responses. you you learn that the people you thought were weird not to buy are actually weird to buy. It'd be weird if they did buy. They're not behaving in a way where they have pull. And in that case, what I tend to recommend is you just analyze. You go back and review the calls and you say, "Okay, did one actually have pull? Did zero like what have we learned here?" And then you craft a new hypothesis and run it again. Got it? And imagine most of the time it's not it's not there. And is that your experience or what's kind of the pie chart of yes success versus not at this stage?

是的，我见过也许一两次它从一开始就在那里，那很神奇，就像你第一次就做对了，你感觉像个英雄。呃，很多时候是，呃，就像我们太错误和落后了，我们不知道，所以你只是几次孤注一掷，这让你走上正确的道路，或者你喜欢做一些疯狂的事情，一个朋友只是呃，比如去一个会议并安排了 20 个会议，只是说我不知道该怎么办。你告诉我该构建什么，或者类似的事情。我称之为地精模式，你只是全力以赴，做不健康的事情，看看谁现在会从我这里买东西，然后从中生成你的假设。

Yeah, I've seen like maybe once or twice where it was there uh from the beginning and that's magical like you feel like a hero when you when you get it right the first time. Uh a lot of times it is uh it is like we're so wrong and backwards that we don't know and so you just ask a Hail Mary a couple times and that gets you on the right path or you like do something crazy where a friend just uh like went to a conference and scheduled 20 meetings and just was like I don't know what to do. You tell me what to build you or something like that. I call that goblin mode where you just just going all out and doing unhealthy things to see like who will buy something from me right now to then generate your hypothesis out of.

多说说地精模式。这太神奇了。

Say more about goblin mode. This is amazing.

是的。你知道就像狗那样，像发疯一样，对吧，它们就像那样，那就是我脑海中作为创始人的地精模式，就像

Yeah. You know like when when dogs do that like get the zooies right and they just like that's that's the thing I have in my mind for what goblin mode is as a founder where it's like

这是好事还是坏事？

and this is a good thing or not a good thing?

这是一种紧急情况下打破玻璃的东西。呃，它是，嗯，我认为有些创始人实际上一直这样运作，就像好吧，明天在欧洲有一个会议，有这些潜在客户在那里，我无法让他们和我交谈，所以看起来我现在要上飞机去那里，对吧，只是做一些有点疯狂的事情，目标是现在就在客户面前，呃，是的，像有些人可以一直这样做，呃，其他人像我这样年纪大了，我可以偶尔拿出这个。

It's a it's a break glass in case of emergency thing. uh where it's um and I think some founders actually operate like this all the time where it's like okay there's actually a conference tomorrow in Europe that has these potential customers there I can't get them to talk to me so looks like I'm going to get on a plane right now and go there right it's just doing uh kind of somewhat crazy things with the goal of getting in front of customers right now and uh yeah like some people can do this all the time uh others like me who are get an old like I can I can pull this out once in a while.

有时把那个地精模式拿出来。

Get that goblin mode out sometimes.

所以这个想法是，你说有时候这可以奏效，就像发疯一样，就像和所有人交谈，寻找这些赚来的秘密。

So the idea there's and you're saying this sometimes this can work just like going nuts just like going talking to everyone looking for these earned secrets.

是的。

Yeah.

一个例子，有点疯狂，但一个朋友正在建立一家叫 Tiro 的公司，做牙科卫生员的人员配备。他的“地精模式”版本是，他的父母挨家挨户去不同的牙科诊所，只是为了让人和他谈谈成为客户。这奏效了。所以像这样的奇怪事情也能奏效。

And one example of this, like it's kind of a crazy example, but a friend's building a company called Tiro, which does dental staffing for dental hygienists. And his version of goblin mode was his parents went door-to-door to different dental offices to just get people to talk to him about being customers. And that worked. And so it's just like weird stuff like that can work.

太棒了。好的。所以你说做几次销售电话，比如做五次。是这个意思吗？做五次然后评估。这是粗略的启发式方法吗？好的。所以，就像你说的，大多数时候你会发现，好吧，这里没有吸引力。抱歉。

Amazing. Okay. So you say do a couple sales calls, say do five. Is that kind of the idea? do like five and assess. Is that rough heuristic? Okay. So, say to your point, most times you'll find, okay, this is not there's no pull here. Sorry.

你怎么办？你回到起点，亲自动手做一些其他小生意之类的事情，还是你推荐什么？

What do you do? Do you go back to the beginning, go hands-on with some other small business sort of thing or what do you recommend?

是的。所以，有不同的路径。希望你已经问了那个“万福玛利亚”问题，并且在那里学到了一些值得深入挖掘的东西。

Yeah. So, different pathways there. Hopefully, you've asked the Hail Mary question and you've learned something there that's like worth double clicking into.

“万福玛利亚”问题就是，比如，有没有什么我们可以做的，是的，现在就在你的待办事项清单上的问题。

And the Hail Mary question is just like what is there anything that we can do to with Yeah. right now that is a problem on your to-do list.

是的。是的。没错。所以你已经产生了一些新信息，然后你可以用来像

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And it's and so you've generated some new information that you can then use to like

再做一组五个。

do another set of five.

如果没有，那么是的，你就回去，获得一些第一手知识，再试一次。

If not, then yeah, you just go back, get some firsthand knowledge, try it again.

太棒了。好的。所以这个过程非常直接。有一个吸引力假设，填写这个模板，基本上安排冷启动外联，用这个令人惊讶的信息引起人们的注意，让他们觉得你很有趣。呃，大约打五个电话，感受一下，是否有吸引力？如果没有吸引力，抛出一些“万福玛利亚”问题，也许进入地精模式寻找一些东西。呃，提出另一个吸引力假设，再打五个电话，重复直到你说，“哦，哇。我们有了这个吸引力。”是的。然后你就有了一个生意。

Awesome. Okay. So, so this process is very straightforward. Have a pull hypothesis, fill out this template, schedule basically cold outbound with this surprising message that'll get people's attention, think you're interesting. Uh, do five calls roughly, get a sense, is there pull or not? If there's not pull, throw out some Hail Mary questions, maybe enter goblin mode to look for something. Uh, come up with another pull hypothesis, do five more calls, and repeat until you're like, "Oh, wow. We've got this poll." Yep. And then you have a business.

这就对了。开始赛跑了。好的。所以，假设你真的找到了一些东西，一些有吸引力的东西，人们说，我现在就需要这个。接下来是什么？你有点像是建立入职流程，然后只是让他们开心？那个过程是什么样的？你有什么建议？

There we go. Off to the races. Okay. So, say you've actually found something, something that is pulling and people are like, I need this now. What comes next? What do you kind of the there's kind of like the building onboarding process and then just keeping them happy? What's that process like? What advice do you have there?

是的，所以我发现我并没有一个好的方式来思考人们购买后会发生什么，所以我感觉像得到了一辆车的狗，我只是把软件扔过栅栏，说祝你好运。嗯，从那以后我通过艰难的方式学到的是，留存超级重要，而且并不明显。所以我对交付和售后思考的方式是，基本上每个购买的人保证会流失，直到 X，在这种情况下他们流失才奇怪。所有的交付都是关于弄清楚 X 是什么，以及你如何设计一列子弹列车，让每个客户都能到达那里。所以 X 是，你可能认为，哦，他们在使用产品或者他们有高 NPS 或其他什么。几乎从来不是那些东西。马克·罗伯有这种留存的领先指标，对于 Slack 来说，就像你在最初的 X 时间内发送了 10,000 条消息或一千条消息。如果你达到了那个，你流失才奇怪。这是留存的领先指标。对于我的初创公司，我们给餐厅提供留存软件。如果他们在购买后的前两周内收到通知，说有人要退出，他们可以阻止，他们会发疯。他们会告诉所有朋友，他们流失才奇怪。所以我们只是设计了入职流程来达到这个。所以我建议的是，一旦你有几个人说 yes，不要只是把产品扔过去，发送登录信息然后祈祷。也亲自去交付，你会从中学到很多，并不断问这个问题，比如你现在会流失吗？你现在会流失吗？比如什么，并试着找到那个时刻，当他们说哦好的酷，我离不开这个了。

Yeah, so I found that I didn't really have a good way to think about what happens after people buy and so I felt like the dog who got a car and I just kind of like threw the software over the over the over the fence and like good luck. Um what I've learned since then the hard way obviously is that like retention is super important and it's not obvious. And so the way I think about like delivery post sale is that basically everybody who buys is guaranteed to churn until X in which case they're weird to churn. And all delivery is all everything is about figuring out what is X and how do you design a bullet train so every customer gets there. And so X is, you might think of it as, oh, they're using the product or they have high NPS or whatever it is. It's almost never those things. Mark Rober has this kind of leading indicator of retention, which for Slack was like you sent 10,000 messages or a thousand messages in your first X amount of time. If you hit that, it's like it'd be weird if you churned. You It's the leading indicator of retention. For my startup, we gave retention software to restaurants. If they got a notification that somebody was going to quit that they could prevent within the first two weeks uh after purchase, they would like go insane. They would tell all of their friends about it and they it would be weird if they churned. And so we just designed the onboarding process to that. And so what I recommend is once you have a couple people who are saying yes, don't just like throw the product over and like send them a login and pray. go deliver firsthand as well and you're going to learn a ton from that and keep asking the question like are you going to turn now? Are you going to turn now? Like what and try to find the moment when when they're like oh okay cool I can't live without this.

我喜欢你的思维方式，这些公式和模板，一切都像这样，显然不是这么干净利落，但我认为对人们来说真的很有帮助，用这些非常结构化的方式思考，把这些关于事情顺利时看起来如何的一般想法，以及如何找到一个想法，就像好吧，这是你插入的，谈论具体的事情，它有效，调整，所以这很棒。关于流失的部分，有没有什么迹象，好吧，开枪，每个人都在流失，就像一个迹象，好吧，他们以为他们加入了，但事情不奏效。在这个阶段有什么迹象吗？好吧，也许它不奏效，对比它奏效。

I love how your mind works where it's these formulas and these templates and just everything is this and obviously it's not like this cleancut but it's really helpful I think for people to just think of it in these very structured ways uh to take these general ideas of what it looks like when things are going well and how to find an idea to just like okay here's what you plug in talk about the specific thing it's working adjust so this is great on the churn piece is there what's like a sign okay shoot everyone's turning just like a sign of like okay they thought they in but that it's not working. Anything there of just like what's a sign at this stage? Okay, maybe it's not working versus it is.

是的。所以，如果每个人都在流失，你不能不找出原因。所以，呃，我实际看到的是，在很多情况下，对于很多横向产品，你会有很多用户流失。所以，我认识的一家初创公司，他们是一个横向 AI 工作流产品。酷。加入俱乐部，对吧？但他们通过作为一个横向 AI 工作流产品发现，一两种客户继续使用它，而其他人都在流失。所以如果一堆人在流失，90% 以上的客户在流失。首先，我很抱歉，这很糟糕。真的，你知道，你每天早上 4 点醒来，只是出汗。但在其中你通常可以找出原因。是你在做的事情还是关于他们的事情？这可以告诉你，好吧，谁实际上有吸引力，我们可以销售、交付、留存，对于那个横向工作流产品，他们发现货运代理正在使用它进行一个特定的工作流。所以他们把整个公司转向专注于那个。所以他们从一个有大量流失、低价格的横向产品变成了一个面向货运代理的非常高端的产品。

Yeah. So, if everybody's churning the it is unacceptable for you to not figure out why. And so, uh what I've actually seen is in a lot of cases like for a lot of horizontal products, you're going to have a lot of like user drop off. So, one one startup I know like they they were a horizontal AI workflows product. Cool. Join the club, right? But they found through being a horizontal AI workflows product that like one or two kinds of customers kept using it while everyone else was churning. And so if a bunch of people are churning, 90% plus of your c your you customers are churning. First of all, I'm sorry it sucks. It really, you know, you wake up at 4 a.m. every morning just sweating. But in that you often can figure out why. And is it something that you're doing or is it something about them? And that can tell you, okay, who actually had pull that we can sell, deliver, retain and and for like that horizontal workflows product, they found that freight forwarders were using it for one specific workflow. And so they pivoted the entire company to focus on that. And so they went from being this horizontal product with massive turn, low price to a very premium product for freight forwarders.

没有哪个时刻像，好吧，我们搞定了。我们会取得巨大成功。就像创业旅程的每一刻都是不确定的时刻，但这个过程的伟大之处在于，你每走一步，就越来越确定至少这里有一些东西，然后永远怀疑的是，这能变得多大，我记得和 Databricks 的创始人交谈，现在是一家像无数万亿美元的公司，他说即使到了 1 亿美元 ARR，他们仍然非常不清楚这是否会持续，我认为这很常见，所以这就像是它自己的话题，就像

There's no point at which like, okay, we figured it out. We're going to be a massive success. Like every moment of the startup journey is a uncertain moment but what's great about this process so far is every mo step you get it's more and more certain there's something here at least and then there's like the in forever in doubt of like how big can this get I remember talking to the founder of data bricks which is now like a bazillion trillion dollar company and he said something like even at 100 million RR they were still very unclear if this was a thing that will last and I think that's very common so that's like its own topic of just like

知道这个很好，知道这个很好，因为每个人，是的。每个人都像，“这怎么成为一个大事情？”就像，我不知道。

that's nice to know That's nice to know because everyone Yeah. Everyone's like, "How will this become a big thing?" It's like, I don't know.

我们会搞清楚的。是的，就是一步一步来。那么在这次对话中，我心目中的最后一步就是你提出的这个用户案例工厂的想法，它把你从事情开始有起色带到“好了，现在我们可以创建一个可重复的系统来帮助我们成长”。所以谈谈这个，它是什么样子的，是关于什么的。

We'll figure it out. Yeah. It's just kind of one step at a time. And so in this conversation, the final step in my mind is this idea you have of this user case study factory, which kind of takes you from things are starting to work to okay, now we can create a repeatable system that helps us grow. So talk about that, what that looks like, what that's about.

是的。所以这就是每当我谈论时，大家眼睛都会呆滞的东西，所以我还没找到一个有用的方式来谈论这个。所以预先警告一下，我认为这是所有事情中最重要的，那就是你如何思考你的初创公司？你对初创公司的概念模型是什么？你需要有一种方式来思考你的初创公司，以知道如何尽可能快地增长它。所以最终发生的是，你找到某个有拉力的人，你给他们一个产品或服务或其他东西，他们从你手中拉走。所以，事实证明他们试图做 X，他们现有的选择对于 Y 来说不够好，而你提供了 Z 来帮助他们解除障碍。这听起来很像你会在网站上展示的案例研究。这是一件有用的事情，因为，好吧，作为创始人的工作不是生产一百个不同的案例研究，完全不同的案例研究，因为那是不可扩展的。那是不可重复的。我正在寻找建立一个案例研究，客户在购买前和购买后都说“ hell yes”，然后重复一百万次。所以这个模型帮助我从认为初创公司是一堆不同的东西，我需要知道所有这些不同的东西，到不，初创公司只是一个无限次重复一个案例研究的东西，我所做的一切都是为了建立一个重复那个案例研究的工厂。如果我做对了，就会有一个案例研究，客户说“ hell yes”。他们自己拉着自己通过工厂的每一步。步骤是管道步骤，我们如何让人们与我们交谈？销售步骤，我们如何将潜在客户转化为实际客户？以及案例研究工厂的交付步骤，即我们如何让成为客户的人变得奇怪，而不是流失。所以我们所做的一切都符合这个案例研究工厂。如果你在脑海中看到这个，它会从根本上简化初创公司如何运作。然后你可以使用约束理论。我们要变得非常书呆子一会儿，从制造业来看你的案例研究工厂说：“好吧，我们的增长瓶颈在哪里？是不是我们没有足够的管道？”好吧，酷。如果那是瓶颈，那么那是现在唯一重要的事情。让我们解决那个瓶颈，然后我们再移动到下一个。下一个是我们的成交率低于它应该的水平。好吧，酷。那是我们的瓶颈。现在我们要全力以赴。所以它让你，案例研究工厂模型给你一种思考你的初创公司的方式，并确切知道在任何时间点该关注哪里。

Yeah. So this is the thing that whenever I talk about everyone just like everyone's eyes glaze over and so I haven't found a useful way to talk about this yet. So just pre-warning I think it's the most important thing in all of this which is how do you think about your startup? What's your conceptual model for your startup and like you need to have a way to think about your startup to know how to grow it as fast as humanly possible. So what winds up happening is you find somebody who has pull you give them a product or service or whatever that they pull out of your hands. So, it turns out they were trying to do X, their existing options weren't good enough for Y, and you offer Z that helps unblock them. That sounds a lot like a case study that you would feature on your website. And it's a helpful thing because, okay, my job as a founder is not to produce a hundred different case studies, totally different case studies, because that's not scalable. That's not repeatable. I'm looking to build one case study where a customer says hell yes before they buy and after they buy and just repeat that a million times. And so that model helped me go from thinking that startups were a bunch of different things. I need to know all these different things to like no a startup is just a thing that repeats one case study infinite times and all the stuff that I do is to build a factory for repeating that case study. And if I do this right, there's a case study where customers say, "Hell yes." And they pull themselves through each step of the factory. The steps are the pipeline step, how do we get people to talk to us? Sales step, how do we turn potential customers into actual customers? And the delivery step of the case study factory, which is how do we get people who are customers to be weird, not to churn. And so everything we do kind of fits into this case study factory. And if you see this in your mind, it radically simplifies like a startup how it works. And then you can use like the theory of constraints. We're going to get really nerdy for a second from manufacturing to like look at your case study factory and say, "Okay, where is our where is the bottleneck to our growth? Is it that we're not like we don't have enough pipeline?" Okay, cool. If that's the bottleneck, then that's the only thing that matters right now. Let's solve that bottleneck and then we'll move to the next one. The next one is our close rate is lower than it should be. Okay, cool. That's our bottleneck. Now we're going to go all in on that. And so it lets you go like the case study factory model gives you a way of thinking about your startup and knowing exactly where to focus at any one point in time.

这是一种非常有趣的思考方式，我们不是试图仅仅关闭更多客户和更多交易，而是我们正在构建案例研究，就像你几乎从我们将要写的案例研究是什么倒推，比如我们正在与 SpaceX 交谈，就像我们希望在我们交谈的所有公司中看起来一致。人们谈论称之为可重复的销售动作，但我喜欢这样思考，就像从新闻稿倒推，但用于销售，

It's a really interesting way to think about it where instead of we are trying to just get more customers closed and more deals closed instead we're looking we're building a case studies like you almost like working backwards from what's the case study going to be of this company we're talking to. Say we're talking to SpaceX just like we want it to look consistent across all the companies we're talking to. People talk about call this repeatable sales motions, but I like the idea of thinking of like it's almost like working backwards from the press release, but for sales,

我们将要写的关于 SpaceX 的案例研究是什么？好的，这是我们如何得到他们的。这是我们如何向他们销售的。这是我们如何交付的。

what is the case study we're going to write about SpaceX? Okay, here's how we got them. Here's how we got sold them. Here's how we delivered it.

然后这里就像创建一致的可重复的案例研究，你以后可以分享。是的，确切地说，然后销售变成什么样？它变成一种“嘿，这是我们交付的案例研究，这对你 relevant 吗？”它实际上变成你可以向人们展示案例研究，他们说“是的，那实际上也是我想要的”，所以它变成这种工具，你可以说“是的，你看起来不像我们的案例研究，所以可能有很多工作，可能不太合适”，你可以用它来资格认定和取消资格，以及让人们理解你做什么。这很有趣。现在有一个整体主题是构建软件工厂，你知道产品自己构建，但这是你正在构建的另一个版本的工厂，甚至是更广泛的版本，不仅仅是销售，用户，案例研究工厂。

And then here is just like create like consistent repeatable case studies that you will later be able to share. And yeah and ex exact and then and then what sales becomes is it becomes kind of like hey this is the case study that we deliver on is this relevant to you or not and it becomes actually like you you can show the case study to people they say yeah that's actually what I want as well and so it becomes this kind of tool and you can say yeah you don't look like our case study so it's probably going to be a lot of work and it might not be a good fit and you can use it for qualification disqualification and for people to understand what you do. That's that's funny. There's this whole theme now of building software factories um where you know product build itself but um this is really another version of a factory you're building which is even the broader version of just the sales the user the case study factory.

是的。是的。我们这里不制造软件。我们制造案例研究。

Yeah. Yeah. We don't make software here. We make case studies.

所以那是你的建议吗？就像那样想，我们这里制造案例研究。是的。这很有趣。并不是说你真的需要分享和写一个案例研究。这只是如何思考你试图构建的销售、市场推广或工作的心理模型。

So is that is that is that your advice? Just like think of it that way like we make we make case studies here. Yeah. It's interesting. And it's not like you need to actually share and write up a case study. It's just a mental model for how to think about what you're trying to build as an a sales go to market or work.

是的，完全正确。好消息是如果你有拉力框架，那么你只需描述我们如何帮助他们以及他们取得了什么成就，你就有了一个案例研究。

Yeah, totally. And and the good news is if you have the poll framework, then you just describe here's how we helped them and what they accomplished and you have a case study.

太棒了。好的，有几件事我想谈谈，因为这基本上是过程的结束。嗯，有几件事我想谈谈，来自社区和你快速提到的事情。一个是你有这个术语“ hell yes 客户”。多说一点，嗯，你提到当你寻找某人购买然后使用时，有这种想法，你希望他们是“ hell yes”。是的。

Amazing. Okay, there's a couple things I want to touch on because this is the end of the process basically. Um there's a few things I want to touch on uh that came out of the community and things you mentioned real quick. One is you you have this term hell yes customers. Say more about that is um you mentioned of like when you're looking for someone to buy it and then use it there's this idea of they want them to be hell yes. Yeah.

基本上就是那种在购买前从你手中拉走产品，然后购买后使用它就像上瘾一样的人。所以他们可能真的会说“ hell yes”。但重要的是他们不购买会显得奇怪，流失也会显得奇怪。那个过程主要是他们拉而不是你推。那是你的完美契合客户。你的工作只是找到更多基本上是他们的克隆的人。

It's it's basically somebody who pulls the product out of your hands before they buy and then afterwards they use it as if it is addictive. And so they they might literally say hell yes. But what matters is they're weird not to buy and weird to churn. And that process is mostly them pulling versus you pushing. That's your perfect fit customer. Your job is just to find more who are basically clones of them.

好的。嗯，我想强调的另一点是你建议没有试点，没有概念验证，没有设计合作伙伴。直接去“我们将把这个卖给你并推出，它会很棒”。

Okay. Uh the other kind of point I want to reinforce is you recommend no pilots, no point proof of concepts, no design partners. Just go straight to we're going to sell this to you and roll it out and it's going to be amazing.

是的。有时候你会那样做，他们说：“好的，但我们这里购买的方式是我们实际上需要试点。”

Yep. And and like sometimes you're going to do that and they say, "Okay, but the way we buy here is we actually need to pilot it."

好的，酷。但不要主动提供。太棒了。好的。来自社区的另一个大问题是从外部视角。

Okay, cool. But don't proactively I see offer. Awesome. Okay. Another big question that came out of the community is from an external perspective.

这感觉只适用于初创公司和创始人，但实际上也适用于——我们开头提到过，但为了强调这一点——对于正在开发新功能、新业务线之类的大公司。谈谈如果你在一家成熟公司构建新产品，在这个过程中你会有什么不同的思考。

This feels like this just for startups and founders, but this actually applies for and we mentioned this at the beginning, but just to reinforce this point for larger companies that are working on new feature, new business line sort of thing. Uh talk about just if there's anything that you would think about differently through this process if you're at a mature company building a new product.

我正在帮助几家公司推出他们的第二款产品。他们实际上在做的是，创始人说：“酷，我们再来一次。我们重跑一遍。”创始人把这种方法用在现有客户身上，因为他们想追加销售。而且他们实际上在构建新功能之前就卖这些功能。另一个现有公司的例子是——我不能透露名字——一家公司的新产品负责人告诉我：“嘿，是的，我们获得想法的方式——所有奏效的想法——都来自销售电话，客户说‘酷，是的，你能做 X，但你能不能也为我们做另一件事？’那些来自客户在销售电话中要求为他们做那个项目的产品，全都成功了；他们白板上的那些从未成功。”所以这里的思路是，你有一个产品，你听到，你基本上是在寻找这些小金块，这可能是个机会。我想象的是，然后你走完整个拉假设的步骤。就像提出假设，与五个现有客户交谈，寻找那个拉，看看他们是否真的会买，然后走同样的过程。这里一个重要的细节我们可能强调得不够：应该是创始人在做这件事，尤其是在初创公司。但有趣的是你说即使在成熟公司，如果是新产品，理想情况下创始人在做那个销售。

I'm helping a couple companies launch their second product. And what they are doing is actually the founders are like, "Cool, we're doing it again. We're running it back." And the founders are taking this approach to existing customers because they're going to try to upsell them. And they are actually selling new features before they've built them. Another example at existing companies is um I can't share the name but a company was a new product leader at a company was telling me hey yeah the way we get our ideas all of the ideas that have worked have come from sales calls where they said cool yeah you can do X but could you also do this other thing for us and the products that came out of the customer in the sales calls asking for something that could do that project for them uh all worked all the ones they whiteboarded never worked. So the idea here is you have a product, you're hearing, you're basically look finding these little nuggets of this could be a thing. And what I'm imagining is then you go through this whole pull hypothesis step by step. Just like put up that hypothesis, talk to five of your existing customers, look for that poll, uh see if they're going to actually buy it, and then kind of go through the same process. And an important wrinkle here that we haven't reinforced enough maybe is that it's the founders that should be doing this, especially in a startup. But it's interesting you said even at a mature company if it's a new product the founders ideally are doing that sailing.

是的。

Yeah.

理想情况下不总是这样。有些人确实在做从 0 到 1 的事情，但我建议如果你处于那种情况而且你不是创始人，真正专注于尝试销售这个东西并通过销售来学习，因为在从 0 到 1 的过程中有很多方式会迷失。

Ideally not always the case. There there are people who who are doing zero to one stuff but I just recommend if you're in that situation and you're a non-founder really focus on trying to sell the thing and learning through selling because there's a lot of ways to get lost in zero to one.

太棒了。然后再说，如果事情不奏效，有这种“哥布林模式”的想法，就像，好吧，就尝试一堆东西，和尽可能多的人交谈，上飞机，去开 20 个会，就寻找一些东西。

Awesome. And then again, if things aren't working, uh there's this idea you should of goblin mode of just like, okay, just try a bunch of stuff, talk to as many people, get on planes, go have 20 meetings, and just look for something.

是的。是的。万福玛利亚，哥布林模式。所有这些都只是你的紧急破窗锤。时间非常宝贵。卡住是很糟糕的。如果你处于从 0 到 1 的痛苦洞穴中，那就像你一生中最糟糕的时光，你不想延长它。所以，就上飞机，去办公室，亲自去，不惜一切代价找到一些东西。

Yes. Yeah. Hail Mary, goblin mode. Like all of these things are just the your break glass in case of emergency. Time is really valuable. And like staying stuck is awful. If you're in this like pain cave of zero to one, it's like the worst time of your life and you just don't want to prolong that. So just get on a plane, go to the office, go in person, do whatever it takes to find something.

Rob，我们做到了。我们走完了一切。太棒了。在我们进入非常激动人心的闪电轮之前，你认为还有什么重要的要分享，或者你想——我不知道——强调什么吗？

Rob, we did it. We went through everything. That was amazing. Is there anything else that you think is important to share or anything you want to I don't know, double down on before we get to our very exciting lightning round?

希望传达出来的是这有多简单。拉框架，展示给人们，看看他们是否拉。有很多方式会把它过度复杂化。有很多方式是我们试图提前在头脑中解决每一个变量。我发现，只是拉框架、销售、看看他们是否尝试购买，在这个过程中少想一些，它就会带你到达那里。

Hopefully what's come across is kind of how simple this is. Pull a framework, show to people, see if they pull. There's a lot of ways to like over complicate this. And there's a lot of ways where we try to solve every variable in our head in advance. And I've found that just pull framework, sell, see if they try to buy uh and think less in that process uh it will get you there.

太棒了。听起来非常简单。我认为重要的是要知道，这实际上并不像——找到一个真正有效的想法是很难的。而这一切都是为了帮助你节省大量的痛苦和折磨，避免构建和——有点——避免幻灭，不是幻灭，是错误地感觉那里有东西，浪费大量生命做不会成功的事情。

Awesome. That sounds very simple. And I think it's important to know like this is very actually not like it's hard to find an idea that actually works. And this is all uh here to help you save a lot of pain and suffering and building and be kind of being uh disillusion not disillusioned mis uh feeling like there's something there wasting a lot of your life doing something that's not going to work.

是的。把它想象成——你知道——就像海滩上的金属探测器。这就像只是给你一个金属探测器。你现在寻找的地方可能找不到金属，但至少我不是给你一把勺子。

Yeah. Think of it as like a um you know like a metal detector on a beach. Like this is just giving you a metal detector. You might not find metal where you're looking right now, but at least I'm not giving you a spoon.

至少我不是给你一把勺子。意思是

At least I'm not giving you a spoon. Meaning

用于海滩，对吧？就像寻找金属。

for the beach, right? Like to look for metal.

你不是——哦，我明白了。你有一个金属探测器，而不是用勺子翻遍所有沙子。哇。我喜欢这个比喻。然后有时你可能找到一个东西，然后你意识到它不值钱。是的。

You're not Oh, I see. You have a metal detector versus looking through all the sand with a spoon. Wow. I love that metaphor. Uh and then sometimes you may find a thing that and then you realize it's not worth anything. Yeah.

好吧。哇。那是个很棒的比喻。

Okay. Wow. That's a great metaphor.

好的，Rob，至此我们到了非常激动人心的闪电轮。我有五个问题问你。你准备好了吗？开始吧。第一个问题，你发现自己最常向别人推荐的两三本书是什么？

Well, Rob, with that we reached our very exciting lightning round. I've got five questions for you. Are you ready? Let's do it. First question, what are two or three books that you find yourself recommending most to other people?

哦天哪。嗯，我最喜欢的是克里斯托弗·亚历山大的四卷本《秩序的本质》系列。这是关于建筑的书，建筑系列丛书。有史以来最好的东西。

Oh gosh. The um my favorite one is the four volume nature of order series by Christopher Alexander. It's book on architecture, series of books on architecture. Best thing ever.

以前从未听过这个推荐。那些是我的最爱。嗯，你最近真正喜欢的电影或电视节目是什么？

Never heard that recommendation before. Those are my favorite. Uh favorite recent movie or TV show you've really enjoyed?

我有两部最喜欢的电影，我们反复看。一部是《傲慢与偏见》——最近的那版《傲慢与偏见》，第二部是《马达加斯加的企鹅》电影。不知道为什么我们在两个极端。

I have two favorite movies that we watch repeatedly. One is the Pride the most recent Pride and Prejudice and the second is the Penguins of Madagascar movie. Don't know why we're in both ends of the spectrum there.

你最近发现或使用或喜欢的最喜欢或最有趣的 AI 产品是什么？

Favorite or most interesting AI product that you recently discovered or use or love?

我一直在用 Muse，就像如果它对我有效，它就能对任何人有效。

I've been using Muse and it's like if it works for me, it can work for anyone.

是的。现在非常火。嗯，太棒了。好的。你经常在工作或生活中回归的最喜欢的人生格言是什么？

Yeah. Very hot right now. Uh amazing. Okay. favorite life motto that you often come back to in work or in life.

嗯，生活是你自己创造的。

Uh life is what you make of it.

太对了。最后一个问题。我很好奇想听听你的想法。有这么一个“焦油坑想法”的概念。我请过 Dalton Caldwell 上播客。他是 YC 的合伙人，他有个术语叫“焦油坑想法”，就是人们不断有的、非常糟糕且行不通的想法，人们不断有这些想法，不断尝试，然后他们就说好吧，行不通。有没有什么焦油坑想法，你发现人们不断来找你，你说别那样做，行不通。

So true. Final question. I'm curious to get your thoughts on this. So there's this idea of tarpit ideas. Uh so I had Dalton Caldwell on the podcast. He was a partner at YC and he has this term tarpit ideas which are ideas that people constantly have that are just terrible and don't work and people keep having these ideas and they keep trying it and they're just like okay does not work. Is there are there any tarpit ideas you just find people keep coming to you and you're like don't do that it's not going to work.

哦，这很有趣。这类想法是：当一个领域已经有明显的赢家时，还要进入这个领域，却没有任何与众不同的理论。我不断看到这种情况，就像，哦哇，Lemless 刚做了一个销售自动化工具，他们是自力更生的，增长非常快，所以我就构建和他们一模一样的东西或非常接近的东西。你知道，这就像，好吧，但他们已经——他们已经赢了那个，或者他们已经——他们已经做了那件事。所以，除非你说“哦，但这种客户没有被服务好，所以我们要为他们构建一些不同的东西”，否则这些想法几乎总是行不通。你会觉得自己快疯了，因为你会说：“嗯，这对他们有效啊。”

Oh that's interesting. the the category is of ideas is to go after a space when there is already a clear winner in that space without any theory on being different. I just keep seeing that it's just like, oh wow, Lemless just built a sales automation tool and they're bootstrapped and they're growing really fast, so let me just build the exact same thing as them or something very close. And you know, it's like, okay, but they they've already they've already won that or they've they've already they've already done that thing. Um, and so, uh, unless you're like, "Oh, but this kind of customer is unblocked, and so we're going to build something kind of different for them," those ideas almost always don't work. And you feel like you're going crazy because you're like, "Well, it worked for them.

我做错了什么？我猜每个人都会回答：“但它更好。”而我们知道，它不能只是好一点点。基本上，你是在说：“好吧，这为他们解除了障碍。”

What am I doing wrong? And I imagine everyone answers, "But it's better." And as we know, it can't just be a little bit better. And basically, you're saying like, "Okay, this is unblocking them."

是的。

Yes.

而且它比所有替代方案都好。他们就会选择那个东西。但我想，然后这就引出了另一个话题：如果它好两倍呢？我猜你的建议是那可能还不够好。

And it's better than all the alternatives. They're just going to go with that thing. But I guess then, you know, this goes into a whole other conversation like what if it's like two times better? And I guess your advice there is it's probably not good enough.

有很多东西，对吧？你可以给我一台好 100 倍的打印机放在家里，但我不会买，因为我没有被阻碍。

There are many things, right? You could give me a 100x better printer for my house and I won't buy it because I'm not blocked.

这是个很好的例子。天啊，Rob，我们做到了。

That's a great example. Oh man, Rob, we did it.

我们做到了。天啊。

We did it. Holy cow.

我们做到了。天啊。嗯，好的。听众怎样才能帮到你？这是我们的最后一个问题。

We did it. Holy cow. Um, okay. How can listeners be useful to you? That's our final question.

哦天哪。如果你喜欢这个框架，就用它。告诉其他人。如果这本书有用，去看看，如果有任何想法、点子，或者这是一个还在发展中的理论框架模型，请联系我。我仍然觉得自己只是触及了表面，这大概是我未来 10 到 20 年要做的事情。所以，如果你有改进的方法，请联系我告诉我。

Oh gosh. If you like the framework, use it. Tell other people about it. Check out the book if it's useful and reach out if you have any thoughts, ideas or this is a kind of this is a theory framework model that is just in development. I still feel like I'm kind of scratching the surface on this is kind of like what I'm what I'm going to be doing for the next 10 20 years. So, if you have ways to improve it, like reach out and tell me.

太棒了。你的通讯正是如此，你只是，我不知道你多久发布一次，但就像这样：酷，这是另一种思考方式。这里有个新点子。

Awesome. And your newsletter is exactly that is you just I don't know how often you're publishing, but just like cool here's like another way to think about this. Here's a wrinkle here.

是的。

Yeah.

嗯，把它称为“创业物理学”这个想法真是个绝妙的主意。

Uh just the idea of calling it physics of startups is an awesome idea.

谢谢。

Thanks.

所以请大家关注这个通讯。嗯，Rob，非常感谢你来到这里。

So point people to the newsletter. Uh Rob, thank you so much for being here.

谢谢。

Thank you.

大家再见。

Bye everyone.

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