验证、优化、创新：马克·平卡斯谈掌控与押注自己

我有一个非常出色但强势的父亲。你没有成为我希望你成为的那种人。我说了再见。很多创始人都是源于童年的困难和创伤。我一直是个局外人。这些极其痛苦的事情可以成为巨大的力量来源，因为你在很小的时候就了解了自己的能力。我们知道我们手中有如此大的力量，却很少去运用它。这是 Raza Sachu 的《创始人思维》。

I had a very wonderful but strong father. You haven't become the man that I hoped you would. I said goodbye. So many founders are born out of the childhood difficulties and trauma. I've always been an outsider. These things that are remarkably painful can be the great sources of strength because at an early age you learn what you're capable of. We know there's so much power in our hands and we do so little with it. This is the founder mindset with Raza Sachu.

创始人思维不仅仅是创业。它是一种生活方式。其核心是，它能让一个人去做每个人都想做的事情：对他们关心的人产生积极影响。在这个播客中，我们将与一些最伟大的创始人见面，一些经历过最不可思议旅程的人，他们一直践行着创始人思维。要成为一名创始人需要什么？Mark Pincus 不相信闪电般的灵感，即一个改变一切的绝妙想法。他创立了 Zingga，这是 Farmville 和 Words with Friends 背后的社交游戏巨头，并以 1227 亿美元的价格出售。在此之前，他已经创立了三家公司。一家被出售，一家上市，一家失败。他把这一切转化为一个框架，被证明更好、更新，以及大多数创始人抗拒的习惯。假设你的想法是错的，并比任何人都更快地测试它。Mark Pincus，欢迎来到《创始人思维》。

The founder mindset is not just about starting a business. It's a way of living. At its core, what it enables a person to do is to do the thing that every human being wants to have a positive impact on the people that they care about. In this podcast, what we are going to do is meet with some of the greatest founders, some of the people that have had the most improbable journeys who have lived with the founder mindset. What does it take to be a founder? Mark Pincus doesn't believe in the lightning bolt, the one brilliant idea that changes everything. He built Zingga, the social gaming giant behind Farmville and Words with Friends, and sold it for $122.7 billion. Before that, he had already built three companies. One sold, one went public, and one failed. He turned it all into a framework, proven better, new, and a habit most founders resist. Assume your idea is wrong and test it faster than anyone else. Mark Pincus, welcome to the founder mindset.

好的，我一开始想问您的是，您知道我们才刚刚开始互相了解，我想告诉您，当我审视您的背景时，在很多方面都令人难以置信地着迷，对吧，创始人从无到有创造事物，对许多人的生活产生了大规模的影响，好的，我觉得最有趣的是，很多人会看着您的生活说，天哪，我希望我能有这种影响力，而且您故事中有一些部分对很多人来说都非常有共鸣。好的。所以我想探讨的是那些真正有共鸣的故事部分。我有一句话，就是很多创始人都是源于他们童年经历的困难和创伤。所以我们就直接从这里开始。跟我谈谈您的童年创伤。

Okay, my question for you starting is you know we we are just getting to know each other and I will tell you that when I look at your background in many ways it's incredibly fascinating right founder built things out of nothing had a big impact on many people's lives in a mass way okay the thing that I find most interesting is so many people will look at your life and say boy I wish I could have this sort of impact and there are parts of your story that are just so relatable to so many. Okay. And so what I want to go to is those parts of the story that are really relatable. I have a phrase which is so many founders are born out of the childhood difficulties and trauma that they went through. So let's just get right there. Talk to me about your childhood trauma.

嗯，我想说，我能追溯到的一个单一事件是，我有一个非常出色但强势的父亲，他希望我们都在他的生活中扮演某些角色，他希望我成长为某种特定的人。当我 18 岁时，他说：“你知道，这是一个艰难的决定，Mark，但嗯，你只是没有成为我希望你成为的那种人，所以我决定让你退学，你回家，为我工作一年，我要完成对你的抚养。”我说：“你……”然后我就离开了，开始了。

Well, I'd say the the the one kind of singular event that that I can trace things to is I had a very uh wonderful but strong father and and he kind of wanted us all to play certain roles in his life and he wanted me to grow to be this one kind of man. And when I was 18, he said, "You know, this is a hard decision, Mark, but um you just you haven't become the man that I hoped you would, and so I'm deciding to take you out of college, and you're going to come home, work for me for a year, and I'm going to finish raising you." And I said, "You by" and and I uh left and started.

就这一点来说，您把他描述为一个非常强势的人，但这不是一个非常强势的人的行为。

Just on the point of you you you describe him as a wonderfully strong man but that's not the behavior of a wonderfully strong man.

嗯，人是多面的，嗯，我父亲在他生命的那个阶段，后来他就像最好的爷爷 Teddy，最好的父亲、祖父。但在那个时候，嗯，他对待家人的方式就像对待公司员工一样。嗯，而且奇怪的是，我在自己的公司里确实从中吸取了教训，后来谈到，那就是民主独裁。你被允许发表一次意见，然后他会告诉你答案。但他嗯，他以他知道的最好的方式爱我们。他做他认为对我最好的事情，但他深深担心我会孤独地长大，与世界脱节。这是因为他只看到了一种愿景，那就是

Well people are multiaceted and uh and my dad at that point in his life later he was like the best grandpa Teddy the best dad grandfather ever. But at that point, um, he he kind of related to his family the way he related to the employees in his company. Um, and and oddly, what I did take from that in my own company, talked to later, is it was a democratic dictatorship. You're allowed to voice one opinion and then he was going to tell you the answer. But he uh he loved us the way he knew best. and and he was doing what he thought was best for me, but he he was deeply worried that I was going to grow up lonely and disengaged from the world. And it was because he had kind of he only saw one vision, which was

他在你身上看到了什么可能导致这种负面结果？我的意思是，他看到的某些部分一定是真实的。

what was it that he saw in you that could lead you to this negative outcome? I mean, there must have been parts of it that he saw that was true.

是的。最大的事情是，嗯，我最初去了密歇根大学，一所 Big 10 学校，他真的很希望我加入他在印第安纳大学 IU 时参加的兄弟会，ZBT，而我认为兄弟会，你看起来不像兄弟会的人。我真的不太适应。我认为他们很蹩脚。对我来说，去这所学校就像一台奇怪的时间机器，所有酷的人都是那些能喝最多啤酒的大孩子，我只是觉得这很愚蠢。发生了什么？我父亲真的很想让我这样做。而我完全拒绝了。然后我父亲很合群，他喜欢加入。他加入了所有东西，并担任所有东西的主席。而我没有这样做，我在这个学校里不适应。我迷失了。我只有几个朋友。所以

Yeah. The the biggest thing was that um I initially went to University of Michigan, a Big 10 school, and he really his dream was for me to join the fraternity that he had been in at IU, Indiana University, ZBT, and I thought fraternities, you don't strike me as a fraternity. I'm not really I don't fit in that well. And I thought they were lame. And it to me it was like a weird time machine going to this school and just every the cool ones were like the the biggest kids who could drink the most beer or I was just like this is stupid. What's going on? And my dad really wanted me to do that. And I just rejected it completely. And then I also just was my dad was gregarious and he was a joiner. He was in he joined everything and was president of everything. And I wasn't doing that and I didn't fit in at this school. I was lost. I only had a couple friends. And so

在很多方面，你父亲非常想把你带入内部，而你最不想做的就是进入内部。会有异常行为吗，或者这就是异常行为？

in many ways, your dad was very much trying to bring you into the inside and the last thing you wanted to do was to come into the inside. Would there have been outlier behavior or was this the outlier behavior?

嗯，有吗？我的意思是，我对学校不太感兴趣。我没有得到好或坏的成绩。有点像我们只是足够好，比如 BB+。所以我没有，我没有成就。我不是，我不是最好的。我没有成就，而我父亲一切都关于成就和简历，所以我没有做任何独特的事情，他希望我这样。

Well, was there I mean I I wasn't that interested in school. I didn't get good or bad grades. It was kind of like we get just good enough like BB+. So I wasn't and I wasn't achieving. I wasn't wasn't out I wasn't the best at anything. I wasn't achieving and my dad was all about achievement and resumes and so I wasn't doing anything distinctive and and he wanted that for me.

所以你拒绝它是因为你认为自己没有能力，还是因为你认为它不相关？

And so did you reject it because you didn't think you were capable or because you didn't think it was relevant?

嗯？我认为当时我甚至没有想过。所以，回想当时，我拒绝它是因为我就像，你甚至不了解我。就像你没有连接，你没有连接到我，理解我感兴趣、参与和热衷的事情。你只是想，你试图把你在其中取得成功的传统世界交给我，你想让我加入那个世界。到目前为止，我都不感兴趣。你知道，呈现给我的东西不适合我。我不喜欢，我不特别喜欢大学，尤其是在一所 Big 10 学校。我没有，我只是没有找到自己，我，但他说得对，看着我说：“你不是，我没有看到你参与世界。”

Huh? I don't think that was even in my head then. So, this is thinking back to then I rejected it because I was like I was just like you don't you don't even know me. Like you're not connecting you're not connecting to me and understand what I'm interested and engaged in and passionate about. You just want me you're trying to hand me this traditional world that you've succeeded in and you want me to join that world. And so far I'm not into any of it. You know, it just wasn't for me what was presented. I I didn't like I didn't particularly like college, especially being at a Big 10 school. I didn't I just I hadn't found myself I I was But he was right and looking at me and saying, "You're not I don't see you engaging in the world."

有很多人观看这个节目，他们会与这种缺乏承诺、缺乏目标、缺乏激情的感觉产生共鸣。嗯，我如此兴奋能有你在这里的部分原因是，你没有在其中沉沦几十年又几十年。你能够弄清楚如何扭转局面。是的。从一个地方。

There's so many people watching this where they would resonate with this feeling of a lack of commitment, a lack of purpose, a lack of passion. Um and part of the reason I'm so excited to have you here is that you didn't wallow in it for decades and decades. you were able to figure out how to turn it around. Yeah. From a place.

但奇怪的是，部分原因是那场斗争，因为我在那一刻说“你买”时，我不知道我的祖父母设立了一个信托基金来支付我的大学费用。所以我不认为那有多大风险，对吧？然后我父亲，不涉及血腥细节，嗯，去找银行，直到他们停止资助我。

But oddly, part of it was the fight because I I didn't know at in that moment when I said you buy my grandparents had set up a trust fund to pay for college for me. And so I didn't think it was that risky, right? And then my dad without getting into gory details um went after the bank and until they took stopped funding me.

他非常想赢。后来我转到沃顿，财务处打电话给我，说你爸爸说你要退学。他发现我转学后，打电话说我要让我儿子退学，他们说从程序上讲得由你决定。我说：“哦，别听他的，他疯了。”

He was very determined to win. And then the bursar's office — I transferred to Wharton — and the bursar's office called me and said your dad said that you're disenrolling. He found out I transferred, called, said I'm disenrolling my son, and they said technically you have to decide this. And I said, "Oh, don't listen to him. He's crazy."

哇。

Wow.

然后突然之间我就想：“哦，我得——突然之间，你知道，我每学期需要 8000 美元。”学费就是这么多。

Um, and then all of a sudden I was like, "Oh, I need to — all of a sudden, you know, I needed $8,000 per semester." That's how much school cost.

这很了不起，对吧？因为从某些方面来说，这——

It was remarkable, right? Because in some ways this —

但这反而激励了你，对吧？

But then that motivated you, right?

这个障碍在你内心燃起了一团火。

This obstacle created within you a sort of a fire.

是的，确实如此。突然之间我就想，我要拿满分，因为分数等于钱，钱等于自由。这里其他孩子追求的东西和我不一样。他们是预科学校的孩子，投入程度和我不同。所以我极其争强好胜。我不在乎。我以前从不在乎，从不对学业或成绩争强好胜。而现在我就想，我要在每一门课上都拿 A。我完全不在乎学习本身。

Yeah, it did. All of a sudden I was like, I am going to get perfect grades because grades equals money and money equals freedom. And these other kids here aren't in it for what I am. These are prep school kids and they're not in it for the level I am. So I was extremely competitive. I didn't care. And I'd never cared, been competitive about school or grades. And now I was just like, I'm going to get an A in every single class. I didn't care at all about learning.

是逆境，对吧？是逆境引导你——我经常想，我们来自非常不同的世界，但有一个共同点，那就是，你知道，我从东非移民到加拿大，对我来说，很大程度上是从外部向内看。我觉得这也能引起你的共鸣。

It's the adversity, right? It's the adversity that led you to — I mean, I often think about — we come from very different worlds but share something in common, which is very much, you know, I immigrated to Canada from East Africa and for me it was very much looking in from the outside. And it strikes me that resonates with you as well.

我一直是个局外人。

I've always been an outsider.

是的。所以事实证明，这些极其痛苦的事情可以成为巨大的力量源泉，因为你在早年就了解了自己的能力。

Yeah. And so it turns out that these things that are remarkably painful can be the great sources of strength because at an early age you learn what you're capable of.

是的，是的。我是说，我当时就想：“哦，哇，我能拿满分。那时我以班级第二名的成绩毕业。”

Yeah. Yeah. I mean I was like, "Oh, wow. I can get perfect grades. I graduated second in my class at that point."

但我也觉得，你本可能陷入我所说的“收集金星”的陷阱。意思是，了不起的是——是的，你突然说：“我必须全拿 A。”然后，转眼间你就进了华尔街。转眼间你就去了哈佛商学院。就像，这里有很多打勾的选项。这开始不像异常行为，也不像我们今天认识的马克·平卡斯。

But it also struck me that you could have got very stuck in what I'd call collecting gold stars. Meaning what was remarkable was — yes, you suddenly said, "I got to get straight A." So, the next thing you know, you're on Wall Street. Next thing you know, you're at Harvard Business School. Like, there's a lot of check boxes here. That is starting to not feel like outlier behavior and doesn't feel like the Mark Pincus that we know today.

尽管在那期间，我也算是自己最大的敌人。我是说，被解雇或被要求离开。我相信我在每一家公司都是最优秀的。

Although within that, I was also kind of my own worst enemy. I mean, got fired or asked to leave. I believe I was the best at every company I was at.

你当然这么认为。

Of course you did.

有可能。他只是没看到。嗯，有些人甚至看到了，但我还是让自己被要求离开。

Could be. He just didn't see it. Well, some even did and I still got myself asked to leave.

那你身上到底是什么让你从所有这些地方被解雇？

And what was it about you that was getting you fired from all these places?

我的毕业纪念册留言，那是朋友帮你写的，是“有些人有分寸，另一些人说真话”，而我一直践行这句话。是的，经历了所有这些限制职业生涯的时刻。那可能是——如果我闭嘴就好了。你知道，有些时刻你明明知道，如果我往左走，我就闭嘴，忍下去。

My yearbook quote, which your friends write for you, was "some people have tact, others tell the truth," and I have just lived up to that quote. And yeah, had all these career-limiting moments. And that could be — if I just keep my mouth shut. You know, there's those moments when you just know if I go left, I just shut up and just swallow it.

是的，但你天生就做不到。

Yeah, that you're constitutionally incapable of.

是的。不，我真的，真的——当我想到我有多少次——这真的很惊人。

Yeah. No, I really, really — it's really amazing when I think of the number of times that I —

但像这样可能很有问题的事情，最终却能成为巨大的超能力，这很了不起。

But it's remarkable about something like that which could be so problematic can end up being a massive superpower.

是的。我会说，当时我真的以为我的回答让面试官印象深刻，但我像 CEO 一样思考，像 CEO 一样行事。我一直说，只要是我在领导团队，我就是个很好的团队合作者。我想我表现出了这一点。我最喜欢的是我得到迪士尼面试的时候。因为简历，每个人都给了我面试机会。他们说，我们这里有个案例研究。我们想让你告诉我们，你将如何把迪士尼体验带到美国每个城镇。比如你打算如何推广我们的主题公园？我说，我只是觉得这听起来不是个好主意。你还有别的让我谈谈吗？

Yeah. I'd say at the time I genuinely thought that I was impressing the interviewer with my answers, but I thought like a CEO and acted like a CEO. And I've always said that I'm a great team player as long as I'm running the team. And I think I portrayed that. And my favorite was when I got an interview with Disney. Everyone gave me an interview because of the resume. And they said we here's a case study. We want you to tell us how you're going to take Disney the Disney experience to every town in America. Like how are you going to spread our theme parks? And I said I just that just doesn't sound like a good idea. Like do you have any others for me to talk about?

太好了。好吧。所以，你 20 多岁时已经取得了很多成就，但我觉得你那时并不特别满足或快乐。

That's great. Okay. So, we find yourself in your 20s having accomplished a lot of things, but it struck me as someone who wasn't feeling particularly content or happy about life.

我毕业时没有工作，但后来我真的很幸运，得到了 TCI 总裁的 15 分钟面试。他们说：“我们为什么需要另一个 MBA？”他们有两万名员工。那是第二个 MBA——

I graduated without a job, but then I got really lucky and I got a 15-minute interview with the president of TCI. They said, "Why do we need another MBA?" They had 20,000 employees. That was the second MBA that —

我是你见过的最不像 MBA 的人。

I'm the furthest thing from an MBA that you've met.

不，不。我说，因为未来就是乔治·吉尔德在这本《微观宇宙》里写的一切，而你们是超级油轮。你知道，那时还没有互联网，他们那天晚上要和他共进晚餐。

No, no. I said because the future is everything this guy George Gilder wrote in this book Microcosm and you are the supertanker. You know, there wasn't internet yet and they were having dinner with him that night.

哦，你说得太准了，他们给了我一份工作，但后来我和约翰·马龙开了些限制职业生涯的会议，在那里——

Oh, you nailed it enough that they gave me a job but then I had these career-limiting meetings with John Malone where —

有一个交易，我的老板或约翰想让我们看看。其中一个是收购 Prodigy 三分之一股份，你可能记得。但它是最大的在线服务，比 AOL 还大。收购三分之一要 4 亿美元。我说：“这真是个愚蠢的交易。让我告诉你为什么。”有一家公司，AOL，刚刚上市，他们只值 1.1 亿美元。所以我们可以买下整个公司，而且他们好得多。

There was a deal that my boss or John wanted us to look at. One of them was buying a third of Prodigy, which you might remember. But it was the biggest online service, bigger than AOL. And it was 400 million for a third of the company. And I said, "This is a really dumb deal. Let me tell you why." And there's this company, AOL, that just went public and they're only worth 110 million. So we could buy the whole company and they're way better.

哪里——我是说，这很有趣，对吧？因为我觉得，也许你从你父亲那里继承了这种信念。比如，我们拿 AOL 的故事来说，好吧？我是说，他们没听你的真是可惜，但像你这样的年轻人，那种觉得自己能看到别人看不到的东西的信念是从哪里来的？

Where is — I mean, it's interesting, right? Because it strikes me that, and maybe you got this from your dad, but this conviction. Like, let's take the AOL story, okay? Which I mean it's a shame they didn't listen to you, but where did the conviction come from for a young person like you to feel like you could see things that others can't see?

这个问题问得真好，我称之为专家证人综合征。所以我不认为这是我独有的。我认为很多人，这些职位上的聪明人，都是专家证人，你离数据最近，离答案最近，但离决策者最远。所以有人——我相信如果约翰·马龙花时间看了我看到的细节，他会得出同样的结论，但他在经营一家大公司，他依赖其他人。

That's such a good question and I call it the expert witness syndrome. So I don't think this was unique to me. I think so many people, smart people in these jobs are expert witnesses where you're closest to the data and you're closest to the answer, but you're furthest from the decision-maker. And so somebody — if John Malone, I believe, had spent the time and looked at the level of detail that I had, he would have come to the same conclusion, but he's running a big company and he was relying on other people.

我对你的主张，我想深入探讨一下——直觉大于想法——实际上我的主张是，正在发生的是你能够用不确定的信息做出决策。好吧。你实际上能够看着那些变化的、波动的、不完全确定的信息，并开始信任你对此的判断或直觉。

My proposition to you and I think I want to dive into this — instincts are greater than ideas — is effectively my proposition is what's happening is you're able to actually make decisions with uncertain information. Okay. You're actually able to look at information that's changing, that's volatile, that's not completely certain, and start trusting your judgment or instincts around it.

是的。所以直觉比——是的——专注于你的想法更好。

Yes. So instinct is better than — yes — focusing on your ideas.

但首先，我有个理论，是我书的核心：我们有一些赢家直觉，能在直觉中感受到。你会觉得，是的，我知道每个人都更愿意用手机叫出租车。

But first of all, I have this theory that's core to my book: we have these winning instincts that we feel in our gut. You're like, yes, I know everyone would rather order a taxi through their phone.

但那不是你一定从原始数据中得到的。

But that's not something that you're getting necessarily from primary data.

不，那是生活中无数数据点积累的，但我们有这些赢家直觉，然后我们把它们和那些输家想法包装在一起。

No, that's it's lots and lots of data points that make up your life, but we have these winning instincts and then we combine them with these losing ideas that we package them in.

所以，我们来谈谈——我的意思是，本质上，很多创始人都在尝试打造产品，梦想着把它推向大众市场。现在，你已经反复做到了这一点，最终以 125 亿美元卖掉了你的公司 Zynga。但更令人印象深刻的是，这对你来说是一场重复的游戏，很多次了。你打造了这些产品，以非常病毒式的方式突破，席卷大众市场。好的。所以如果你要给我们——我绝对想谈谈你的书——我认为每个观看这个播客、有兴趣尽快高效地打造大众市场产品的人都应该读读这本书。给我们一个核心原则的简要概述，你关于快速高效地将产品推向大众市场的学习心得。

So, let's talk about—I mean, at the core, so many founders are trying to build a product and they dream about making it, taking it to mass market. Now, you have done this repeatedly, culminating in selling—you're founder of Zynga, sold it for $12.5 billion. But what's even—I mean, to me that is incredibly impressive, but what's even more impressive is it's been a repeated game for you many times. You've built these products that have broken through in a very viral way throughout the mass market. Okay. So if you were to give us—and I absolutely want to talk about your book—where I think everyone watching this podcast who's interested in building a mass market product as quickly and as efficiently as possible should read this book. Give us a thumbnail sketch of what the core principles are, your learnings around bringing a product quickly, efficiently to mass market.

当然。我会说第一，知道你的目标是什么。就像知道——不要迷失方向。我说知道你的目标，否则会死于千次妥协。所以首先，你有北极星吗，还是只是想要一个能获得 traction 的产品？

Sure. I'd say number one, know what your goal is. Like know what—don't lose sight. I say know your goal or suffer death by a thousand compromises. So first, do you have a north star or is it I just want a product that gets traction?

给我一个你北极星的例子。就像让它 relatable。当你创办 Zynga 时，北极星是什么？

Give me an example of your north star. Like just so it's relatable. When you were starting Zynga, what was the north star?

是社交游戏。最终写下了使命：通过游戏连接世界。是改善人们的关系。我们说成功就是人们移动了桶。他们——这成为他们进行社交网络的新维度，你和我只在网上认识，但因为我为你做了游戏中的某事，你在街对面看到我，你过街来打招呼。我们衡量了来自我们游戏的婚姻数量。所以，那是我们的北极星。所以它的重要性，最终 Zynga 失去了它，变成了只是游戏公司，然后就平庸了，无法区分，因为那才是特别的。不是全部，你知道，但那是北极星。所以第一，知道你的目标。

It was social gaming. It was eventually wrote down a mission, connect the world through games. It was improving people's relationships. We said success for us is that people moved buckets. They—that this became a new dimension in how they're doing social networking and that you and I only know each other online, but because of something I did for you in a game, you see me across the street and you cross the street to say hi. We measured number of marriages that came from our games. So, that was our north star. And so the importance of that and eventually Zynga lost sight of that and became just a game company and then it's mediocre and it's indistinguishable because that was what was special. It wasn't the entirety of it, you know, but that that was a north star. So number one, know your goal.

第二是这个基本原则，我真的——我在斯坦福创建了整个课程——我真的希望你的听众能内化。我们是斯坦福课程。那很酷。

Number two is this fundamental principle that I really—the whole course I created at Stanford—I really want your listeners to internalize. We're a Stanford class. That's cool.

那是西海岸的一所社区大学。是个 feeder。

It's a community college that's on the west coast. It's a feeder.

所以整个重点是，我们有赢家直觉，它们——你和我谈过这个——但随着你校准和获得反馈循环，它们会越来越好。哦，我对了。它比我以为的还要大。但我们通过两种方式变得更好。你说的方式，但也越来越好，因为我们在竞技场中做这些决定，建立这种判断力肌肉。

So the whole point of this is that we have winning instincts and they—you and I have talked about this—but they get better and better as you calibrate and you get feedback loops. Oh, I was right. It was bigger than I even thought. But we get better better two ways. The way you're saying, but it also gets better and better because we're in the arena making these decisions, building this judgment muscle.

是的。我们一路校准、重新校准。

Yeah. We're calibrating recalibrating along the way.

所以，我们正在建立这些。所以，我们有一个——有些直觉你感受到，就像，我有一个直觉，每个人在某种程度上都孤独，每个人都想改善生活中的关系。好吧，这似乎是我在陈述显而易见的事。

And so, so we're building these. So, we have a—there's some instinct that you feel that you're just like, like I have an instinct that everybody is lonely on some level and everybody wants to improve the relationships in their life. Okay, that seems like I'm stating the obvious.

那很好。当它是每个人都同意的事时，他们会说，“是的，是的，好吧，那是个很好的直觉。”

That's great. When it's something that's everyone's agrees with, they're like, "Yeah, yeah, okay, that's a really good instinct."

但然后我们有想法。仅仅因为你的直觉是对的，并不意味着这个想法变体就会对。事实上，我说你可以假设你的想法最多 25% 的时候是对的。即使你的直觉总是对的。

Um but then we have ideas. Just because your instinct is right does not mean that this one idea variant is going to be right. In fact, I say you can assume that your idea is right 25% of the time at best. Um even if your instinct is always right.

所以然后我喜欢说，好吧，我用这个信息做什么？如果我能回到 2003 年的马克，在做 Tribe，最早的三个社交网络之一，我会摇醒他说，“不要——”

So then I like to say, okay, what do I do with that information? If I could go back to Mark in 2003 doing Tribe, one of the first three social networks, I'd shake him and say, "Don't—"

你的直觉在那里是对的，在多个层面，像三个不同的行业，对吧？

Your instincts were right there on like multiple multiple levels, like three different industries, right?

我的意思是，Facebook 成为了一家相当大的公司，尽管他们最终改了名字。

I mean, Facebook became a pretty big company even though they changed their name eventually.

嗯，所以是的。所以澄清一下，你创办的企业之一是——的前身。

Um, so yes. And so to be clear, one of the businesses you founded was a precursor to—

是的。在 Facebook 之前，我开始了一个社交网络，当一切顺利时。我的意思是，那里没有。当时大多数社交网络都成功了，你会收到一封邮件说，“马克想成为你的朋友。”你会想，“哦，那是什么？”对吧？而我仍然设法失败了。那需要意志力才能失败。我的意思是，我必须非常坚定。

Yeah. Before Facebook, I started and I started a social network when everything worked. I mean, there wasn't one there. Most social networks back then worked and you'd get an email saying, "Mark wants to be your friend." You'd be like, "Oh, what's that?" Right? And I still managed to fail. That took an act of willpower to fail. I mean, I had to really be determined.

所以，所以如果我能回去说，马克，好消息。你有的那个直觉，它变成了万亿美元的公司和行业，多个行业，你发现了大东西。坏消息是这个想法行不通。

And so, so if I could go back and say, Mark, good news for you. That instinct you had, it becomes trillion dollar companies and industries, multiple industries, you're on to something big. Bad news is this one idea ain't gonna hunt.

你想用这个信息做什么？你想用这个作弊码做什么？好吧，那是时间机器。现在，我可以说，“哦，谢谢你，未来的马克，非常感谢。我将尝试四五个。”

What do you want to do with that information? What do you want to do with that cheat code? Well, it's a it's a time machine. Right now, I can say, "Oh, thank you, Mark Future, so much. I'm going to just try four or five."

对一个陷入这个循环的创始人，有什么可操作的建议？

What's the actional advice to a founder who's getting stuck in this loop?

好的，所以这就到了我书中的第三条建议，那就是我开发了一个框架，不是为 Tribe 及时开发的，但我为 Zynga 做了，我称之为“验证、更好、新”。

Okay, so that gets to my third piece of advice from the book which is I developed a framework not in time for tribe but I did do it for Zynga that I call proven better new.

是的。

Yes.

这成了 Zynga 的宗教，对前 Zynga 人来说仍然是宗教。它成了硅谷 PM 文化的一部分。想法是无论我——无论你想做什么，你可以在世界上找到类似的产品，你可以解构它们，到体验的像素级别，到游戏中机制级别。在任何事中，你可以说所有这些构成了那个体验，我将采用我知道有效的现有东西。它是最成功的。我喜欢它，我会称之为验证过的，然后我会在那个验证过的上获得博士学位，然后我会看看我能做什么更好。我能在那个验证过的中做什么？

And this became a religion at Zynga is still a religion for former Zynga people. It became part of the PM culture of Silicon Valley. The idea is whatever I whatever you want to do, you can you can find products similar to yours in the world and you can deconstruct those down to the pixel level of the experience down to in games the mechanic level. In anything though, you can say all of these things make up that experience and I'm going to take what's out there that I know works. It's the most successful. I like it and I'm gonna call that proven and I'm going to be get a PhD in that proven and then I'm going to look at what can I make better. What can I among within that proven?

是的。是的。

Yeah. Yeah.

或者关于那个产品。我能做出再次无可辩驳地更好的东西吗？我的意思是 10 个现有用户中 10 个都说好。

Or about that product. Can I make something that is again irrefutably better? I mean 10 out of 10 of the existing users say yes.

是的。

Yeah.

如果我们在哈佛被允许这么说。

If we're allowed to say that at Harvard.

在 FarmVille 里，就是作物和作物艺术。每个人都觉得它更好，而且他们真的很在意。新东西是你的创新区——你拥有的新颖想法——而那个想法会失败。我的一句口头禅，在 Zynga 内部他们至今还在说：所有新事物都会失败。如果你假设所有新事物都会失败，你几乎永远不会失望。

With FarmVille, it was the crops and the crop art. Every single person thought it was better, and it was something they really cared about. New is your innovation zone—it's the novel new idea you have—and that idea will fail. One of my mantras, they still say it inside Zynga, is: all new fails. If you assume all new fails, you will almost never be disappointed.

所以你创造了一个狭窄的失败区？意思是如果你创造了一个从未存在过的产品，与任何其他东西都无关，它就会失败。

So you create a narrow zone that fails? Meaning if you create a product that hasn't existed, that isn't related to anything else, it will fail.

所有被引入世界的新想法一开始都会失败。

All new ideas that are introduced to the world fail at first.

是的。

Yes.

而且还有大海捞针——可能百万分之一。但重点是，好吧，如果我的产品里有太多新东西，如果你试图把所有经过验证的东西都变成新的，你实际上会让它们都变得更糟，因为你没有时间。我要说，如果你关心的是客户眼中的价值，而不是同行的尊重，那这是不负责任的。你没有权利去改变已经验证过的东西。你还没有赢得那个权利。你在这方面不够好，也不够聪明。你不是你所构建领域的博士，无法真正实现这一点——改变那么多东西。要做出全世界都承认更好的东西，通常是一件非常非常小的事。

And there's a needle in a haystack—like maybe one in a million. But the point is, okay, if I have too much new in my product, and if you try to make all the proven things new, you're actually going to make them all worse because you don't have the time. And I say it's irresponsible if what you care about is the value in the eyes of your customer, not respect from your peers. You don't have the right to change something that's proven. You have not earned that right. You are not good enough at this and you are not smart enough at this. You're not a PhD in whatever you're building to actually pull this off—to change that many things. To make something that the whole world acknowledges is better, it's usually a teeny teeny thing.

所以这有趣的地方在于，常见的——你会说是误解——对想法的看法，字面上就像你被闪电击中，然后想出一个除了你没人能看到的辉煌新世界。好吧。而这就是你所要抨击的。你的论点在很多方面是在民主化媒体生成，对吧？你基本上是在说，你所定义的新想法是所有人都能获得的。

So what's fascinating about this is the common—you would argue misperception of ideas is literally you're like struck by lightning and you come up with a brilliant new world that no one can see except you. Okay. And that's what you prosecute against. Your argument would be in many ways you're sort of democratizing media generation, right? What you're basically saying is new ideas as you define them are accessible to all.

是的。

Yes.

好吧。这倒是个有趣的观点，对吧？因为大多数创始人、大多数人会争辩说，哦，想法就是大海捞针，你可能花一辈子寻找那个想法。我想找到——要是我有那个绝妙的想法就好了。我相信你的观点是每个人都能创立，因为想法就在你眼前，你需要做的是去学习那个模型或那个经过验证的——

Okay. Which is sort of an interesting point, right? Because most founders, most people would argue that, oh, the idea is the needle in the haystack and you could spend your whole life looking for that idea. I want to have found—if only I had that amazing idea. Your point I believe is everyone can found because the ideas are just right in front of you and what you need to do is go learn that model or that proven—

是的。

Yeah.

——并尝试让它逐步变得更好。

—and try to make it incrementally better.

是的。我要说的是，至少，无论你想做什么，如果你采取这种方法，我认为你会把成功几率提高四倍。不管那是否会成功。你可以想象，如果我有四次射门机会，它们彼此非常接近并且经过校准，可能比一次射门机会有四倍的成功机会，尤其是如果你已经——我们可以假设你的第一次射门不会成功，而你会从每次射门中学习。我还要补充的一点是，这也是书中的另一部分，关于路线图和测试的重要性，以及有一个口头禅：你想在一周内测试比你的行业在一年内测试的更多想法。

Yes. What I would say is at a minimum, whatever it is you're trying to do, if you take this kind of approach, I think you're going to 4x your odds of success. Whether or not that was going to succeed. You have imagined if I had four shots on goal that were all very close to each other and calibrated, probably have four times the chance of succeeding, then one shot on goal, especially if you already—we can already assume your first shot isn't going to work and you're going to learn from each shot. The one thing I'd also add is that is another part of the book is about the importance of road mapping and testing and having a mantra that you want to test more ideas in a week than your industry tests in a year.

哇。

Wow.

因为如果你构建的是一台测试机器，你就构建了一台失败机器，那么你学习的速度会比其他人快得多。

Because if what you build is a testing machine, you build a failure machine, then the rate that you're going to learn is so much faster than everybody else.

你的另一个有争议或反直觉的观点是关于规模的。所以告诉我你怎么想——我的意思是，难道每个创始人不都应该鼓吹一切在于规模吗？

Another one of your controversial points or counterintuitive points is around scale. So tell me how you think—I mean shouldn't every founder be pitching it's all about scale.

嗯，当我在哈佛商学院时，那个神奇的词就是规模。这甚至远在亚马逊出现之前，你知道，但那时是沃尔玛和日本人，以及成为可扩展的领导者。是的，所以我最喜欢的章节之一是关于规模的。我希望在哈佛商学院这里没有人会误解，但当我与 MBA 学生交谈时，或者当我说你不需要花两年时间获得 MBA 时，你所需要的——根本的——管理只有一点，就是当我们不在场时，如何让人们做正确的事。第一件事就是要在场。不要授权。没有人会因为你在授权而印象深刻。我说，你知道，我不明白为什么麦当劳有这些标志说服务超过 1500 万。那并不会让我觉得我的汉堡会更好。我宁愿上校在那里为我做汉堡，你知道，就像翻动它并真正检查质量。我不高兴你今天做了 1500 万个，对吧？所以第一点是微观管理。我认为现在有了埃隆，自从我开始或甚至写这本书以来，事情已经改变了，现在我们开始重新爱上领导者关注细节的想法。但过去这是一件坏事。微观管理是一件坏事。所以在你能做到的情况下，尽可能在场。关注每一个细节，如果你能比任何人做出更好的决定，你就应该这样做。然后你的工作就是如何在我们周围开发系统，以便当我不在场时能产生正确的决定。他们问正确的问题。他们有正确的争论。他们有正确的辩论，正确的答案胜出。这就是使命、价值观和文化这一堆废话。你知道，我绝对跳过了这里的组织行为学课程。只是觉得它们很痛苦。我觉得人力资源很痛苦。

Well, when I was here at HBS, that was the magic word—scale. And this is even long before there was an Amazon, you know, but it was Walmart and the Japanese and being the scalable leader. Yeah, so one of my favorite chapters is about scale. And I hope that no one takes this the wrong way here at HBS, but when I talk to MBAs or when I say you don't need to spend two years getting an MBA, all you need—the fundamental—there's only one point of management, which is how do we get people to do the right thing when we're not in the room. And the first thing is be in the room. Don't delegate. No one's impressed that you're delegating. I say, you know, I don't know why McDonald's has these signs saying over 15 million served. That doesn't make me think my burger is going to be any better. I'm like, I'd rather that the colonel is there making me my burger, you know, like flipping it and really checking the quality. I'm like, I'm not happy that you made 15 million today, right? So the first point is micromanage. And I think now with Elon, things have changed since I started or even wrote the book that now we're starting to kind of fall back in love with the idea of the leaders that are in the details. But it was a bad thing. Micromanagement was a bad thing. So be in the room until you can't possibly be there anymore. Be in every single detail that if you can make a better decision than anybody else, you should. And then your job is how do I develop the systems around us that generate the right decision when I'm not in the room. They have the right questions. They have the right fight. They have the right debate and the right answer wins. And that's all this whole stack of crap that mission and values and culture. You know, I definitely skipped the organizational behavior classes here. And just found them painful. I find HR painful.

你从定义上就是创始人模式的坚定信徒。没错。好吧。那么，向我解释一下创始人模式对你意味着什么？

You by definition are a strong believer in founder mode. That's right. Okay. So, explain to me what does founder mode mean to you?

创始人模式，你知道，几乎就像我们已经——我喜欢这个概念，我认为是 Brian Chesky 创造的，就像它开始——我从它开始的地方就喜欢这个概念，就像你知道创始人模式——你值得拥有权利——你应该得到投资者和董事会足够的信任，来做出，我会说，不受欢迎的决定。对我来说，创始人模式的第一条规则是：你信任自己吗？你准备好在没有其他人的时候押注自己吗——而创始人最勇敢的地方就是做出一个他们自己的团队和投资者都不支持的不受欢迎的决定。

Founder mode, you know, it's almost like we've—I love the concept that I think Brian Chesky coined it, like it started—I loved the concept even from where it started, that it was like you know founder mode—you deserve the right to—you should be trusted enough by your investors and your board to make, I would say, unpopular decisions. The first rule to me of founder mode is do you trust yourself? Are you ready to bet on yourself when nobody else—and the most courageous place for a founder to go is to make an unpopular decision that their own team and their own investors doesn't support.

是的。因为我们在职业生涯中花了太多时间取悦他人。

Yeah. Because we spend so much of our career as pleasers.

是的。

Yeah.

特别是，我想和你谈谈你如何看待投资者，相对于创始人。好的。

In particular, I want to talk to you about how you think about investors, vis-à-vis founders. Okay.

我有一个观点，我开玩笑说，如果我作为创始人想搞定一个投资人，最重要的是我需要另一个投资人。本质上，投资人是在场边观望；创始人才是奖品，而你们才是上战场的人。

I have a view, and I make a joke that if I as a founder wanted to close an investor, the most important thing I'd want is another investor. At their core, investors are watching from the sidelines; the founder is the prize, and you're the ones going into battle.

这百分之百回到了高中，谁是最酷的孩子。

It's 100% back to high school and who's the cool kid.

是的，没错。但在我们的社会里，酷孩子是投资人。

Yeah, right. But in our society, the cool kid is the investor.

但我的意思是，他们就像运动员和啦啦队长，他们是漂亮的人。

But I mean, they're like the jocks and the cheerleaders, they're like the beautiful people.

是的。然后他们决定这真的是，而我们有点像书呆子，他们决定，哦不，马克很酷。你听到了吗？然后他们说，哦，马克很酷。

Yes. And then they're deciding this really is, and we're kind of like the nerds and they're deciding, oh no, Mark's cool. Did you hear that? And then they're like, oh, Mark's cool.

对。所以，我们会去那里。是的。是的。是的。不，这很了不起。

Right. So, we'll go there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's remarkable.

你知道，在我的课上，我做的一件事是把投资人分开。当我把他们分开时，他们会选择非常不同的创始人。当然，一旦我把他们放在一起，他们就会选择同一个创始人。直到我创立 Zynga 时，我才第一次接触到“对齐”这个词。很多时候，这听起来像是一个悖论，或者几乎像是虚伪或相反，但我会说，我的人生哲学之一是生命太短暂，不能挣扎。因此，通常对我们有利的是实际上放慢速度以加快速度，一开始让事情变得更难，以便以后更容易。所以，就像我创办 Zingga 时，我 41 岁，被认为太老不能当创始人，你现在应该是个 VC 了。

You know, in my class, one of the things I do is I keep investors separate. And when I keep them separate, they pick very different founders. Of course, as soon as I've put them together, they pick the same founder. The first word that I didn't get to until I founded Zynga is alignment. And a lot of times, it's funny, this will sound like a paradox or almost like hypocritical or the opposite, but I'd say that one of my life philosophies is life is too short to struggle. Therefore, it's often in our benefit to actually go slower to go faster, make things harder on ourselves in the beginning so that it's easier later. And so, like when I was starting Zingga, I was 41 and considered too old to be a founder and you're supposed to be a VC now.

你创立了几家业绩不错的公司。我有过成功的

You founded a couple of business performers. I had and successful

我对潜在投资人说，你知道，让我给你读一下你不想投资我公司的十大理由。第一是我会保持控制权，以保护你和其他投资人不受你们自己的伤害。他们会说：“非常感谢。”

And I said to potential investors, you know, let me read you the top 10 reasons you're not going to want to invest in my company. Number one is I'll keep control to protect you and the other investors from yourselves. And they'd say, "Thank you so much."

是的。

Yeah.

他们会说：“非常感谢。我不需要听推介了。”这就像快速约会，你知道，大多数人就像，“我被拒绝了太多次。”你认为我的意思是这很有趣。所以，所以他们对这个感到兴奋，因为这对他们来说太不寻常了

And they'd say, "Thank you so much. I don't need to hear the pitch." And it was like speed dating, you know, and most were like, "I got turned out so much." Do you think that I mean it's interesting. So, so they were excited by that because it was so unusual for

他们并不兴奋。不，不，不。他们说：“非常感谢。我们不需要再听了。”

they were not excited. No, no, no. They said, "Thank you so much. We don't need to hear anymore."

所以最终你还是能够筹集到资金，

So ultimately you were able to raise though,

但我让自己变得非常困难。我的意思是我的意思是

but I made it really hard on myself. I mean I mean

那你为什么选择这样做？

so why did you choose to do that?

我的意思是想想这个

I mean think about this

在这一点上，我已经有三家公司了。一家在七个月后被收购，价格不错。第二家上市，赚了很多钱，第三家失败了。

at this point I had had three companies. One was acquired after seven months for a good amount of money. The second one went public for a lot of money and the third one failed.

是的。

Yeah.

现在我有了一家公司，每月现金流 20 万，不是收入，每月增长 30%。但没有人想投资。

And now I have a company that's doing 200,000 a month in cash flow, not revenues, growing 30% a month. And nobody wanted to invest.

那为什么不呢？

So why not?

因为嗯，有几个原因。一是这是一个 Facebook 应用，他们认为这些会消失，这很尴尬。这不会——这怎么帮助世界？我们的主要应用是扑克，他们说我们不喜欢那个。我们的有限合伙人不喜欢赌博。嗯，但最大的原因是我，他们说：“马克有争议。马克，他

Because well, a few reasons. One is they it was a Facebook app and they thought these are going to go away and this is embarrassing. This doesn't how's this going to help the world? It was a our main app was poker and they said we don't like that. Our LPs don't like gambling. Um, but then the biggest reason was me that they were like, "Mark's controversial. Mark, he

而且他想要控制权，

and he wants control and

他想要控制权，而且我甚至有一个 VC 当时对我说，你知道，我喜欢这个的一切，但我担心你不可教练。我说：“非常感谢。你已经告诉了我我需要知道的一切。”

he wants control and he and and I even had a VC say to me then, you know, I I like everything about this, but I worry that you're not coachable. And I said, "Thank you so much. You've told me everything I need to know."

是的。

Yeah.

我不可教练。嗯，我是的，但我选择我的教练。鉴于你从未真正经营过公司，我不认为我会选择你作为教练。

I'm not coachable. Well, I am, but I picked my coaches. And given that you've never actually run a company, I don't think I would choose you as a coach.

在任何创始人的旅程中，有一件事是清楚的，因为当然你看着你的旅程，你只会想，“哇，一切都在直线上升和向右。”你知道，显然事实并非如此。嗯，幸运的是终点看起来非常好，但我知道一路上一定有巨大的波动。你能告诉他们——让我们谈谈你创始人旅程中一些最痛苦的时刻？是的。嗯，它们是什么，你如何找到内心的承诺来度过它们？

One of the things that is clear on any founder journey because of course you look at your journey and you just think, "Wow, everything just went straight up and to the right." You know, obviously that is not the case. Um thankfully the end points look very good, but I know that there must have been tremendous volatility along the way. Can you tell them can let's talk about sort of the some of the most painful moments in your founder journey? Yeah. um what were they and how did you how did you find the internal commitment to get through them?

在我的书里，我写到了这个，我惊讶于有多少人与我称之为“深渊”的概念产生共鸣。深渊是我们去的地方，嗯，通常，你可以说在你开始第一家公司之前，但通常是在你有一家公司失败或甚至被收购之后，但现在你不知道你是否会再次工作。我的意思是，除了可能需要钱，但你不知道你是否会再次拥有那种结构、那种激情。而且你不知道你什么时候会走出这个地方。这个世界不再需要你。你在场边。你不在，你知道，在混战中。在我的职业生涯中，我已经多次陷入这个深渊。我爸爸过去称之为“成功之间”。

And in my book, I write about this and I'm amazed how many people connect with this concept that I call the abyss. And the abyss is this place that we go to um usually um you could say before you've started your first company, but it's usually like after you have had a company that has failed or or even has been acquired, but now it you don't know if you're ever going to work again in your life. I mean, other than maybe needing money, but but you don't know if you'll ever actually have that structure, that passion again. And you don't know when you're ever coming out of this place. This the world doesn't need you anymore. You're on the sidelines. You're not, you know, in the mix. And I've been in this abyss a bunch of times now in my career. My dad used to call it in between successes.

嗯，也是失业。

Um, also unemployment.

是的。所以我曾经在这些深渊中。它们可以持续很长时间。在我开始 Zingga 之前，我处于一个漫长的深渊中。嗯，从 Tribe 到 Zingga，那大概是三年，我不知道我是否能走出来。我学到的是，出路不是你会有一个 A+ 想法然后突然出现。你需要开始追求好奇心和激情，并开始以小的方式参与，你甚至可以嗯你但你变得绝望，所以也有真正的风险和危险，你会抓住一个 B+ 想法作为救生筏，你说好的我有了东西

Yes. And so I've been in these abysses. They can go on for a long time. I was in a long abyss before I started Zingga. Um from tribe to Zingga that was maybe um three years and I didn't know if I'd come out of it. And and I learned that the way out of it is you're not going to have your A+ idea and just pop out. you need to start to just pursue curiosities and passions and start to engage in small ways and you can even um you but but you get desperate and so there's also a real risk and danger that you latch on to a B+ idea as a life raft and you're like okay I got something

然后你说但它不是

and you're like but it's not

对，所以这真的是我的意思是，我称之为这些小的 C 承诺的概念，好的，你开始好奇，而不是只是忽略好奇心，你开始以小的方式参与其中。

right so it's really I mean I call this this concept of sort of these small C commitments okay where you are cur you start being curious and instead of just dismissing the cur curiosity, you start engaging with it in a small way.

当然，你的风险是你以实质性的方式参与一些不是

And of course, your the risk is is that you engage in a material way with something that isn't

这实际上发生在我身上。嗯，我不记得我是否在书中谈到了这个，但在 Zingga 之前，我创建了一家名为 Tag Sense 的公司，这是一个非常好的出版商想法。

and that actually happened to me. Um I can't remember if I talked about this in the book, but before Zingga, I created a company called Tag Sense and it was a really good idea of a publisher.

这是那个没有成功的一个吗？

Is this the one that didn't work out?

嗯，我有几个没有获得资金。所以，这个 TagSense 本来是一个由出版商或博客指导的广告网络，我有 AdSense 作为合作伙伴，彼得·蒂尔说我会给你 500 万马克，我喜欢它。我有一个团队，然后我想这只是一个不太好的想法。它是 B+，我对它没有热情，我没有乐趣，我说你知道吗，我不会拿这笔钱，我终止了它，这真的很难。

Well, I've had a few that I didn't get it funded. So, so this TagSense was going to be an ad network that was directed by the publisher or the blogs and I had AdSense the partner and Peter Teal said I'll give you 5 million Mark I love it. I had a team and then I was like it's just not that good an idea. It's a B+ and I'm not passionate about it and I'm not having fun and I said you know what I'm not going to take the money and I pulled the plug on it and it was really hard.

我刚刚终止了我最热爱的项目之一，我做了 20 年。在书里我称它为 Earth。这是我版本的元宇宙。播客里没时间解释全部，但我已经把它作为研发项目做了四年。我一直在做一个基于浏览器的 3JS 游戏引擎，能与 AI 协作。我刚刚终止了它，因为我说，你知道吗，它不会商业可行，我们没有获得关注，每周进展不快，我们也没有复制任何已验证的东西。我在写整本书，而这些都与我的书不符，我说，尽管痛苦，我要终止它，我想未来的 Mark 会感谢我，因为我创造了这个空间。

I just pulled the plug on one of my deepest passion projects I've been working on for 20 years. I call it Earth in the book. It's my version of the metaverse. We don't have time on this podcast to even explain it all, but I've been building this as an R&D project for four years. I've been building a 3JS browser-based game engine that works with AI. And I just pulled the plug because I said, you know what, it's not going to be commercially viable, and we're not getting traction, and we're not moving very quick weekly, and we're not copying anything proven. I'm writing this whole book, and none of this goes along with my book, and I said, as painful as it is, I'm going to pull the plug, and I think the future Mark will thank me because I created this space.

所以谈谈这个，因为这是另一件有趣的事，你对自己做出这些承诺，对吧？以非常正式的方式，你知道我遇到很多人说，你知道这是我想去的地方。嗯，很多人甚至不说他们想去那里，但很少有人即使说了想去那里，也不做实际承诺去做的工作。所以你能谈谈吗，因为承诺是我经常思考的事情，但你实际上每年都在实践它。是的。所以跟我谈谈这个。

So talk about this because this is another interesting thing where you make these commitments to yourself, right? In a very formal way and you know I meet so many people who say you know this is where I want to go. Well many don't even say they want to go there but very few even if they say they want to go there don't do the work to actually commit to doing it. So can you talk a little bit about because commitment is something I think a lot about but you've actually put it into practice on an annual basis. Yeah. So talk to me about that

也许我还会回溯一下，因为这可能有用，你在采访开始时提到过。嗯，所以我的故事，我的职业生涯真正开始于我住在华盛顿特区一个小的一居室公寓里，我过着非常小的生活，我被这家刚起步的风险投资公司排挤出去。嗯

and maybe I'll I'll also uh backtrack because this could be useful where you were in the beginning of the interview. Um so so my story, my career really starts when I'm living in this little uh junior one-bedroom apartment in DC and I have this very kind of small life and I'm being pushed out of this fledgling VC firm. Um

在你快 30 岁的时候，

in your late 20s,

是的，我 28 岁。完蛋了。我所有哈佛商学院的 friends 都

yeah, I was 28. washed up. All my HBS friends were

他们超过了你。他们

They lapped you. They were

天哪。他们要么他们开始了自己的十亿美元对冲基金。他们早早成为高盛的合伙人。他们他们

Oh my god. They're They're either They started their own billion dollar hedge fund. They were becoming partner early at Goldman Sachs. They they

他们有着惊人的职业生涯。

they had amazing careers.

所以，这感觉相当糟糕。

So, this felt pretty bad.

是的。是的。我

Yeah. Yeah. I

我过着这种小生活，我被排挤出去，从这里似乎无处可去。那时还没有真正的风险投资。那是很久以前。这是 1994 年。我，是的，我对自己的生活感到非常沮丧，所以我，嗯，我在高 holidays 期间去了寺庙，我并不是超级虔诚。我从小就去寺庙。但有人邀请我。我不明白发生了什么，我坐在那里一直写日记，我只是写我的生活有多糟糕，我只是写，哇，你在拉斯维加斯。

And I had this little life and I was being pushed out and there was kind of nowhere that this was going to go from here. There wasn't really venture capital yet. It was that long ago. This is 1994. And I was yeah I was feeling really depressed about my life and so I uh I went to temple over the high holidays and I hadn't not super religious. I had been to temple since I was a kid. U but someone invited me. I didn't understand what was going on and I sat there writing in a journal the whole time and I just wrote about how much my life sucked and I just wrote about like wow you in Vegas.

是的。

Yes.

它只是很糟糕。我就像每天我去那里，我只是像，它因为这个而糟糕，我有这个梦想，我想成为企业家，我甚至从未尝试过，就像整个游戏结束了，只是它结束了，我做了糟糕的选择，然后我最恨自己的唯一一件事是我抽烟。

It just it sucked. And I was just like every day I'd go there and I just be like and it sucks because of this and I had this dream and and I wanted to be an entrepreneur and I never even tried and it was like it was over the whole game and just it played out and I'd made bad choices and then the single thing I hated most about myself was that I smoked cigarettes

我说我要戒掉，或者我只是，但然后我就像，我甚至不是一个真正的烟民。我甚至没有致力于抽烟。我的意思是，我就像，我在酒吧。我晚上抽几根，想要不抽。

and I said I was going to quit or I just but then I was like and I wasn't even a real cigarette smoker. I wasn't even committed to cigarette smoking. I mean, I was like, I'd be at the bar. I'd smoke a couple a night to want to not smoke.

是的。不。我的衣服会闻起来像它，但，所以我就像，“好吧，我最恨自己的、在我控制之内的一件事是我抽烟。所以，我无法修复其他，但我能做到那个。”所以我说，“好吧，我要戒掉。我要终身戒烟。”1994 年 10 月 19 日，就在赎罪日之后。我说，“我每天不抽烟，就是我过我的生活的一天。而不是生活过我。”而且我知道我不是被动的。我是主角。

Did Yeah. No. And my clothes would smell like it and but and so I was like, "Okay, the one thing that I hate most about myself that's in my control is I smoke cigarettes. So, I can't fix the other, but I can do that." And so I said, "Okay, I'm going to quit. I'm gonna do a lifetime quit on cigarettes." October 19th, 1994, right after Yam Kapoor. And I said, "Every day I don't smoke is a day that I'm living my life. It's not living me." And and I I know I'm not passive. I'm a protagonist.

而且

And

所以你感觉你有某种能动性。

so you felt like you had some agency.

是的，我有。我就像，“好吧，我做出了一个真正的生活改变，我未来的自己会非常高兴。”而那

Yeah, I did. And I was like, "Okay, I made a real life change that my future self will be really happy about." And that

所以那给了你信心，你可以做其他事情。

So that gave you confidence that you could do other things.

是的。我就像，“好吧，我可以在这件事上做出改变。我没有卡住。我没有被困在这个过山车上，它去我想去的地方。然后一年后，我辞职了，嗯，去开始，你知道，一种不可能的创业想法，Freeloader。这是最早的消费者互联网公司之一，但我没有钱。我的意思是，事实上，我有 8 万美元的积蓄，所以我想我可以辞职。然后我做空了三个互联网股票。我最终是对的，但

Yeah. And I was like, "Okay, I can make a change in this thing. I'm not stuck. I'm not trapped on this roller coaster that's going where I want to go. And then a year later, I quit my job um to start, you know, kind of an impossible startup idea, freeloader. This was one of the first consumer internet companies, but and I had no money. I mean, in fact, I had I had $80,000 saved, so I thought I could quit my job. And then I shorted the three internet stocks. And I was right eventually, but

做空在短期内不会奖励错误。我失去了所有的钱。

shorting doesn't reward being wrong in the short term. and I lost all my money.

所以然后我不得不从我睡在沙发上的朋友那里借我需要的那 3 万美元。我以他的名字命名公司，我叫它 Freeloader。

And so then I had to borrow the $30,000 I needed from my friend who was living on my couch. I named the company after him and I called it Freeloader.

那很棒。

That's great.

是的。我在他身上白吃白住。

Yeah. I was freeloading on him

然后我把另外 8000 放在信用卡上。嗯，然后有一个完整的故事。

and and then I put the other 8,000 on credit cards. Um and then there's a whole story.

问题是那个业务八个月后以 3500 万美元出售。好的。所以，

Problem is that business eight months later sells for $35 million. Okay. So,

令人惊讶的是，它在 7 个月后以 3800 万美元出售。而我父亲的公司大约一年后，在 38 年后以 3800 万美元出售。

and amazingly, it sold after 7 months for $38 million. And my dad's company sold about a year later after 38 years for $38 million.

这很有趣。所以，什么让它值得？我认为这条道路对我的许多学生，也许对我的许多听众如此有吸引力的原因是，这个想法，你，它回到我们最初的观点，即创业给你的是它为你提供学习，因为你正在做出这些重大决定，并希望建立你的判断力和资源。好的，是的，权力、声望、金钱，但这些东西给你的是这种自由，对你关心的人产生积极影响。好的。所以我对你的问题是，你如何定义影响？你如何定义目的？对吧？什么让它值得？嗯，就你知道你小时候说你真正想要的是自由。

It's interesting. So, what makes it worthwhile? I think the reason this path is so attractive to so many of my students and perhaps to so many of my listeners is that this idea that you it goes back to our initial point which is what founding gives you is it provides you with the learning because you're making these consequential decisions and hopefully building your judgment and the resources. Okay, yes, power, prestige, money, but what those things give you is this freedom to have a positive impact on the people you care about. Okay. So my question to you is how do you define impact? How do you define purpose? Right? What makes it worthwhile? Um in terms of you know you as a kid said what you really wanted was freedom.

是的。

Yeah.

你有自由。好的。所以你将如何拥有你最想要的影响？那看起来像什么？

You have freedom. Okay. So how are you going to have the impact that you most want to have? And what does that look like?

我会说，我想我想构建真正能有意义的产品，人们能感受到与产品或彼此的有意义连接。我的大多数产品都与社交有关。嗯，当我在 Zynga 真正做对时，我说它就像圣餐。它

I'd say it's I want to I I want to build products that really um can have meaning that people can feel a meaningful connection with the product or with each other. Most of my products relate to something social. Um when when I was really getting it right at Zingga, I said it was like communion. It was

它感觉神奇。

it felt magical.

是的，它是。而最深的回报是当我遇到我们的一个玩家，他们通常是中年女性。

Yeah, it was. And and the deepest reward was when I met one of our players, and they were usually middle-aged women

真的。

really.

我有四个姐妹和女儿，嗯，对女性有真正的同理心和连接。然后她们会拥抱我。

And I have four sisters and daughters and uh feel a real empathy and connection to women. And then they would hug me

因为我懂她们，因为她们就像，Farmville 不是游戏。它是我的爱好。它就像我的快乐之地，我生活的一部分。而且就像我们给了她们

because I got them because they were like, Farmville isn't a game. It's my hobby. It's like my happy place, part of my life. And it's and it's like we gave them

我们在其中给了她们足够的东西，我们称那些游戏为投资和表达。投资、表达和连接。

we gave them enough in it and a ways we called those games invest and express. Invest, express, and connect.

我想要的很多是让人们感到有创造力，被视为有创造力，而不是没有创造力。

And so much of what I want is to let people feel creative, be seen as creative, not be creative.

但我希望这能让 Minecraft 像看到大多数孩子去那样，而且有

But I wish that made Minecraft like to see mostly kids go and and there's

别搞错，有了这部 iPhone 和这些屏幕，我们可以被动消费，也可以主动创造。我相信如果史蒂夫·乔布斯看到我们今天对这些设备的使用如此之少，他会非常失望，对吧？他说过‘Think different’。他想释放人们的创造力。他不想让我们 doom scrolling，只是被动存在。他想让人们成为创造者和生成者。我认为我们作为一种文化有一种潜在的抑郁，因为我们知道我们手中有如此大的力量，却用得如此之少。

Make no mistake with this iPhone and these screens, we can be passive and consumptive or we can be active and generative. And I believe that if Steve Jobs saw the way how little we're doing with these devices today, he'd be so disappointed, right? He said, "Think different." He wanted to unlock people's creativity. He didn't want us to do doom scrolling and just be. He wanted people to be creators and generators. And I think that we have a latent depression as a culture because we know there's so much power in our hands and we do so little with it.

对。对。

Right. Right.

所以你说，‘是什么激励我，我想打造一个互联网宝藏，让人们无法想象没有它的生活，我为什么不这样做呢？’但我认为如果可能的话，你知道，我总是回到埃隆，但你知道，埃隆说，你知道，最有趣的故事可能是将会发生什么或什么会赢。我想，对我们今天作为产品创始人来说，最有趣的故事是打造互联网宝藏，我认为很少有人打造出来。我的意思是，我的 iPhone 主页要么是空的，要么就是一些通用的日历、照片和天气。所以这就是激励我的东西。

So you say, "What motivates me that I like I want to build one of these internet treasures that people can't remember life before or imagine life without and why wouldn't I do that?" But I think if it's possible, you know, I keep going back to Elon, but you know, Elon says, you know, the most interesting story is probably what will happen or what will win. I'm like, I think the most interesting story for any of us as product founders today is to build the internet treasures to build and I think so few have been built. I mean, my iPhone is mostly the front page is either empty or it has generic like calendar and you know, photos and weather. So that's what that's what inspires me.

看，这太了不起了。你知道，这很有趣。我正在写一本关于承诺的书。嗯，这本书的基本论点是，我们生活在一个人们将承诺视为牺牲而非超能力的世界。对吧？我们有这么多选择，我的许多学生和朋友都遭受了我所说的‘选择诅咒’，他们从未弄清楚自己真正能做什么，因为他们不承诺。所以当我看你的生活时，有一种真正的目标和承诺，嗯，去产生积极影响。所以我想

Look, that's remarkable. You know, it's interesting. I'm writing a book about commitment. And um the fundamental thesis of the book is that we live in a world where people view commitment as a sacrifice and not as a superpower. Right? We have all these options and so many of my students and friends have sort of suffered from what I call the curse of optionality and they never figure out what they're truly capable of because they don't commit to things. And so when I look at your life, there's a real purpose and commitment uh to have a positive impact. So I want to

但即使如此，当我听你说话时，我想，是的，我非常同意。但承诺的另一面是牺牲，对吧？我们要对什么说不？

But even within that when I listen to you, I'm like, yes, I agree so much. And like but the flip side of commitment is sacrifice, right? What are we going to say no to?

对吧？嗯，关于牺牲是这样的。关于牺牲，事实证明，满足感就在那里。意思是，正是因为你牺牲，你才了解自己的能力。而且我们，你知道，

Right? Well, here's the thing about sacrifice. The thing about sacrifice is it turns out is that is where contentment lies. Meaning it is precisely because you sacrifice that you learn what you're capable of. And we're, you know,

看看我们为孩子做出的牺牲。

Look at the sacrifice we make for our kids.

没错。而且坦率地说，想想如果我们没有能力做出这些牺牲，那该有多糟糕。对吧。所以，或者你为员工、学生或任何人做出的牺牲，正是因为承诺需要牺牲，它才如此强大

Exactly. And and frankly, think about how terrible it would be if we didn't have that ability to make those sacrifices. Right. And so, or the sacrifices you make for your employees or your students or whoever it may be, it's precisely that commitment requires sacrifice that it's so powerful

而且甚至回到，呃，你刚才问我关于我的生命之书。顺便说一句，那是一件迷人的事情。是的。所以，从 1994 年或 1995 年的那段旅程中，我建立了这个承诺，每年在犹太新年期间花这 10 天，但人们可以选择任何时间，在同一本书中写作，并继续这样做。

And and even coming back to uh you had asked me a while ago about about my book of life. And so, by the way, that's a fascinating thing. Yeah. So, so out of that journey in 1994 or 1995, I built this commitment to spend these 10 days every year over the Jewish New Year, but people could pick anytime they want writing in the same book and continue to do that.

是的。我从 1994 年就开始这样做了，我会去读前几年的内容，我发现我在进行，现在已经很多年了，就像你在与自己进行一生的对话。我会回去给自己写笔记，比如实际上一切都会好起来的。你会看到模式，你会想，天哪，我已经说了 20 年‘明年我要 launch earth’。我想，这让你感到沉重，你知道，你就像，因为现在你知道我承诺了

Yeah. I've been doing it since 1994 and and I go read the previous years and what I find is I'm having and it's been a lot of years now and it's like you're having a dialogue with yourself throughout your lifetime. And I go back and write myself notes like actually it's going to be okay. And you see patterns and you're like holy I've been saying next year I'm going to launch earth for 20 years. I'm like and that weighs on you you know you're like you're like cuz and now you know I committed to it

这个变体没有成功，但我感到满足，我不必创造那个互联网宝藏才能过上幸福满足的生活，但我必须去尝试过。

And this variant didn't work but I feel fulfilled and I don't have to create that internet treasure to have a happy satisfied life but I have to have gone for it.

是的。是的。你必须去尝试。谢谢你的到来。我的意思是，这是一个精彩的故事。感谢你如此开放。呃，我希望很快能再次邀请你。

Yes. Yeah. You have to take the shot. Thank you for coming. I mean it's a wonderful story. Thanks for being so open. Uh and I hope to have you back soon.

你一直在收听 Raza Sachu 的《创始人思维》。

You've been listening to the founder mindset with Raza Sachu.