科技从业者心态调查：职业倦怠加剧，AI 引发担忧导致乐观情绪下降

科技圈传来坏消息。工作中的倦怠是一个大问题，而 AI 可能会让本已不堪重负的员工问题雪上加霜。AI 的蜜月期已经结束。当人们被问及“你害怕什么？”时，“被 AI 抢走工作”实际上排在倒数第二。我们看到上升到首位的是期望以同样的薪水做更多工作。我们做了一项调查，了解现在科技从业者的感受。倦怠感正在显著增加。乐观情绪在下降。从来没有这么疯狂过。我们什么时候才能进入这期节目中乐观的部分？一半的科技从业者感觉非常好，而另一半告诉我们，“我的大脑在腐烂，工作感觉更糟了。”埃隆有一种非常有趣的描述方式：如果我们活着的时候即将开始在太空建造数据中心，而 AI 将变得和人类一样聪明，那我们肯定活在模拟中。如果我们能做些什么，这告诉我们该做什么？我们正处于一场巨大变革的第二节。没人知道结局如何，但你能做的只有今天。我的嘉宾是 Noam Segal。Noam 和我认识很久了。我们在 Airbnb 共事多年，他是我的研究搭档。之后，他先后在 Intercom、Twitter、Wealthfront、Meta、Zapier 和 Figma 担任研究负责人。Noam 非常出色，过去几年我有幸和他合作了许多研究项目，其中最雄心勃勃的就是科技工作者情绪调查，我们计划每年进行一次。这是第二次进行，结果非常有趣。我相信这是同类调查中规模最大的一次，关注科技从业者如何看待自己的工作、AI、裁员、倦怠以及职业未来。内容非常丰富，这期节目基本上就是围绕这些结果展开的。在对话的最后，我们会给出一些建议，告诉你如果你现在正陷入困境、努力寻找方向该怎么办。我对这期节目非常兴奋，对这份报告也非常兴奋。非常感谢 Noam 完成了创建调查、运行调查、分析调查以及撰写我们即将链接的文章的工作。非常棒。在开始之前，别忘了去 Lenny 的 newsletter 查看，订阅者可免费获得一年全球最热门、制作最精良的 AI 产品。话不多说，有请 Noam Segal。Noam，非常感谢你的到来，欢迎来到播客。

Bad news for the tech community. Burnout at work is a major problem and AI could add to this already overwhelmed employee problem. The honeymoon period with AI is over. When people are asked, what are you afraid of? Losing my job to AI is actually second to last. What we saw rise up to the top is the expectation to do more for the same pay. We did this survey on how people are feeling in tech right now. Burnout is increasing significantly. Optimism is declining. It's never been crazier. When are we going to get to the optimistic part of this episode? Half of the people in tech are feeling incredible. And the other half told us, 'My brain is rotting. My work feels worse.' Elon had this really interesting way of describing it. We're definitely living in a simulation if we're alive right now when we're about to start building data centers in space and AI is going to be as smart as human. What does this tell us we should be doing if we can do anything? We're in the second inning of a massive shift. No one knows how it will end, but all you can do is today. My guest is Noam Segal. Noam and I go a long ways back. We worked together at Airbnb for many years where he was my research partner. Since then, he went on to be a research leader at Intercom, Twitter, Wealthfront, Meta, Zapier, and Figma. Noam is so amazing, and over the past couple years, I've been lucky to partner with him on a bunch of research projects. The most ambitious of which has been a tech worker sentiment survey, which we plan to run every year. This is the second time we've run it, and the results are so interesting. I believe this is the largest survey of its kind looking at how people in tech feel about their jobs and AI and layoffs and burnout and the future of their careers. There's so much in this and basically this episode is a conversation about the results. At the end of the conversation, we go through a bunch of advice on what you might do if you are currently on the struggle bus and trying to figure out what to do. I am so excited for this episode. I'm so excited for this report. A big thank you to Noam for doing the work to create the survey, run the survey, analyze the survey, and write the post that we will link to. It is so good. Before we get into it, do not forget to check out lenny's newsletter for a free year of the hottest and most well-crafted AI products in the world, available exclusively to Lenny's newsletter subscribers. With that, I bring you Noam Segal. Noam, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.

非常感谢，Lenny。能来到这里真是一次不可思议的经历。谢谢你邀请我。

Thank you so much, Lenny. It's such an incredible experience to be here. Thanks for having me.

这是我的荣幸。我们其实一起工作了很长时间。很少有人知道，你当时是我们团队的研究员。那会儿我在 Airbnb，大概是 10 年前了。

It's my pleasure. We've actually worked together for a long time. And no, few people know this. You were the researcher on our team. When I was at Airbnb, this was like 10 years ago.

几十年前了，十年前，Lenny，变化太大了。

Decades ago, a decade ago, Lenny, so much has changed.

变化太大了。变化太大了。这正好引出了我们今天要讨论的话题——我们做了一项关于科技从业者当前感受的调查。从来没有这么疯狂过。所以我们做了这份报告，看看大家的感受如何。这是我们第二次做这件事，一年前我们进行过第一次。我们的想法是每年进行一次科技情绪调查，追踪科技从业者的感受。在进入主要发现之前，请给我们介绍一下这项调查的背景。你是如何进行的？我们关注了什么？有什么是人们需要知道的吗？

So much has changed. So much has changed. Which is a great segue to what we're going to be talking about today, which is we did this survey on how people are feeling in tech right now. It's never been crazier. And so we did this report on just how are people feeling. And this is the second time we've done this. We ran this a year ago. And the idea here is we're going to have this yearly tech sentiment survey that's going to track how tech people are feeling. Before we get into the takeaways, give us a little context on this survey. How did you run it? What were we looking at? Anything people need to know?

是的，正如你所说，这是我们第二次进行这项调查，我真的觉得这在科技行业是独一无二的。感谢你给我这个机会，也给我们整个社区一个机会，去更好地了解我们在科技界的感受。据我所知，没有其他同等规模的调查关注这些问题。去年我们进行第一次科技情绪调查时，标题是“倦怠但乐观”。我们看到倦怠水平相当高，但对未来的乐观程度也还不错。我们实际上对倦怠问题进行了跟进，创建了 A.R.M.O.R. 框架，如果你还记得的话。我很高兴我们这么做了。今年我们调查了大约 6000 人，来自产品、工程、设计、研究，几乎每个角色，市场营销，几乎科技行业的每个角色。结果非常有趣，所以我很期待深入探讨。

Yeah, so to your point, this is the second time we're running this survey, which I really feel is unique in the tech industry. I appreciate you for giving me the opportunity and giving us an opportunity as a community to learn more about how we're all feeling in tech. I'm not aware of any survey like this at this scale looking at these things. Last year when we ran the similar tech sentiment survey, the first inaugural tech sentiment survey, the title was 'Burnt out but optimistic'. We were seeing fairly high levels of burnout but also fairly good levels of optimism about where things are going. And we actually followed up on the burnout point and we created the A.R.M.O.R. framework if you remember. And I'm really glad we did that. This year we surveyed about 6,000 people from product, engineering, design, research, pretty much any role, marketing, pretty much any role in tech. And the results were very interesting. So I'm very excited to jump into them.

是的。我记得当你分享分析初稿时，我读着读着就想，“天哪，这太有趣了。”感觉它把我和很多人的感受说清楚了。所以，我很高兴我们正在做这件事。

Yeah. I just remember when you shared the first draft of the analysis and I was reading it, I was like, 'Holy, this is so interesting.' It just feels like it's putting words to the way I feel, the way that I hear a lot of people feel. So, I'm really excited that we're doing this.

本期节目由本季赞助商 Work OS 呈现。OpenAI、Anthropic、Cursor、Vercel、Replit、Sierra、Clay 以及数百家其他成功公司有什么共同点？他们都由 Work OS 提供支持。如果你正在为企业构建产品，你会感受到集成单点登录、SCIM、RBAC、审计日志等大公司所需功能的痛苦。Work OS 将这些交易障碍转化为即插即用的 API，拥有专为 B2B SaaS 构建的现代开发者平台。事实上，我投资的每一家开始向上扩展的初创公司最终都采用了 Work OS。因为他们是最好的。无论你是试图获得第一个企业客户的种子期初创公司，还是全球扩张的独角兽，Work OS 都是实现企业就绪和释放增长的最快路径。它本质上就是企业功能的 Stripe。访问 workos.com 开始使用，或者直接访问他们的 Slack，那里有真正的工程师等着回答你的问题。Work OS 让你通过令人愉悦的 API、全面的文档和流畅的开发者体验更快地构建。前往 workos.com 让你的应用企业就绪。

This episode is brought to you by our season's presenting sponsor, Work OS. What do OpenAI, Anthropic, Cursor, Vercel, Replit, Sierra, Clay, and hundreds of other winning companies all have in common? They are all powered by Work OS. If you're building a product for the enterprise, you've felt the pain of integrating single sign-on, SCIM, RBAC, audit logs, and other features required by large companies. Work OS turns those deal blockers into drop-in APIs with a modern developer platform built specifically for B2B SaaS. Literally, every startup that I'm an investor in that starts to expand upmarket ends up working with Work OS. And that's because they are the best. Whether you are a seed-stage startup trying to land your first enterprise customer or a unicorn expanding globally, Work OS is the fastest path to becoming enterprise-ready and unblocking growth. It's essentially Stripe for enterprise features. Visit workos.com to get started or just hit up their Slack where they have actual engineers waiting to answer your questions. Work OS allows you to build faster with delightful APIs, comprehensive docs, and a smooth developer experience. Go to workos.com to make your app enterprise-ready.

今天我们将回顾十大主要发现。从整体报告来看，最重要的一个发现是什么？如果只能记住一条，那会是什么？

Today we're going to go through the top 10 takeaways. What's the big picture takeaway from the report overall? If someone could take one big takeaway away.

嗯，首先我要说的是，你我都注意到 Elena Vera 在录制这期播客前几天发表了一篇精彩的文章，她谈到了“AI 信心剧场”，以及如今科技圈里的对话中一切都死了。首先是工程师编码死了，设计死了，SaaS 死了，等等。显然，这不是真的。所以，你即将在这些结果中看到的是我们所能提供的最真实图景，可能也是迄今为止任何人提供的关于人们真实感受 AI 的最佳图景。

Well, first I'll say that you and I both noticed an incredible post from Elena Vera a couple of days before this pod was recorded and she's talking about the AI confidence theater and how in conversations these days in tech everything is dead. First of all, engineer coding is dead, design is dead, SaaS is dead, etc. Obviously, that's not true. So, what you're about to see in these results is the best picture we could provide and probably the best picture anyone's provided so far of how people are really feeling about AI.

对我来说，这也关联到一个事实：如果你正在看这个，并且你在科技行业工作，你可能会回答某种半年一度的 Culture Amp 式调查，关于你的感受。但这些问题并没有深入探讨你的经理或公司领导力的有效性。而在这项调查的大图景中，我认为最突出的一点是，现在的劳动力市场有多么两极分化。你会看到，AI 对人们工作感受的影响是异常巨大、超乎寻常的，比他们工作的任何其他特征——无论是角色、公司、公司规模、职级等——都要大。科技行业的一半人感到不可思议、充满活力、被放大、对技术和他们角色的未来感到兴奋。而另一半人则觉得未来不明确。他们感到不稳定，感到被削弱。以及围绕这些的负面情绪。这是一幅非常有趣的图景，确实把科技劳动力一分为二，我们马上就会看到这一点。

And to me, this also ties to the fact that if you're watching this and you work in tech, you probably answer some sort of biannual Culture Amp-style survey about how you're feeling. But the questions don't really dive any deeper than the effectiveness of your manager or leadership at the company you work at. Whereas the big picture in this survey, I think the thing that stood out to us the most is how bifurcated the workforce is right now. And what you're going to see is that AI has an outlier-level, outsized impact on how people feel about their work, more so than any other characteristic of their job, whether it's their role, the company they work for, the company size, their level, etc. Half of the people in tech are feeling incredible, energized, amplified, excited about the technology and the future of their role. And the other half feel like the future is unclear. They feel destabilized. They feel diminished. And other negative emotions around that. It's a very interesting picture that really cuts the tech workforce in half, and that's what we'll see in a second.

感觉确实如此，当我们观察科技行业的人时，这感觉是对的。很明显这种情况正在发生，有趣的是结果正好是 50：50。我没想到会如此均衡。这是一个非常有趣的发现。

It feels so, yes, this feels correct as we look at people in tech. It just is so clear that this is happening, and what's interesting is it's 50/50 in the results. I didn't expect it to be so even. That was a really interesting takeaway.

就是 50：50。当你更深入地挖掘数据时，会发现一些细微差别。我们正在看这张幻灯片，上面有一个问题，你我都决定回答这个调查：如果 AI 改变了你的职业身份，是怎样改变的？首先我要指出，只有 3% 的人报告 AI 没有改变他们的身份。所以很明显 AI 已经改变了我们每个人对自己的看法。这是第一点。但接着你的观点，最突出的是，50% 的科技从业者感到被放大。他们觉得自己能做更多，能做得更好。这是一种完全积极的情绪。这对他们来说很好。但另一半科技从业者分为三个不同的群体。第一个群体是那些觉得自己的角色正在被重新定义的人。这个群体实际上对正在发生的事情没有太多的清晰感，也没有特定的积极或消极情绪。他们只是不太理解。这是一种非常混杂的情绪，他们清楚自己的角色正在发生根本性变化，但不知道这意味着什么。这占我们样本的 27%。然后往下，有两个群体对正在发生的事情有明确的负面情绪。第一个群体，14% 的人感到不稳定。他们脚下的地在震动。他们对正在发生的事情很不清楚，焦虑水平很高。他们对未来持非常消极和悲观的态度。然后 5% 的人感到被削弱。他们觉得 AI 的强大力量从他们身上夺走了一些东西，这些东西显然永远不会回来了，因为俗话说，AI 和 AI 模型今天是它们最差的时候，它们只会变得更好。所以现在感到被削弱的人，未来可能会更加感到被削弱。

It's 50/50. When you dive a little bit deeper into the data, there is some nuance there. So, we're looking at this slide with the question that you and I both decided to answer the survey, which is, how has AI shifted your professional identity, if at all? And I'll call out first of all that only 3% of people reported that AI hasn't shifted their identity. So clearly AI has changed how we each view ourselves. That's first of all. But then to your point, the most prominent thing here is that 50% of people in tech are feeling amplified. They feel like they can do more. They feel like they can do better. It's a wholly positive emotion. And it's great for them. But the other half of tech divides into three distinct groups. The first group is people who feel like their role is being redefined. That group doesn't actually have that much clarity or specific positive or negative emotions around what's happening. They just don't really understand it. It's a very mixed bag type of emotion where it's very clear to me that my role is fundamentally changing, but I don't really know what it means. And that's 27% of our sample. Then as we go down the line, we have two groups who have clear negative emotions around what's going on. The first group, 14% of people, feel destabilized. The ground is shaking beneath them. They have very little clarity on what's going on. They have high anxiety levels. They report having very negative and pessimistic views of what's to come. And then 5% of people feel diminished. They feel like the great powers of AI have taken something away from them, something that is obviously never going to come back because what's the saying? AI and AI models are the worst today that they'll ever be. They're only getting better. So people who feel diminished now will only feel more diminished in the future probably.

那么，这是坏消息。

So, for the bad news.

这里也有一些好消息。沿着这个思路，这些分类与衡量人们状况的几乎所有其他指标都高度相关。所以这种对几乎所有其他核心问题的回归分析，看到它们之间的联系非常有趣。

There's some good news here. So, following the thread, these buckets correlate super strongly with basically every other measure of how people are doing. So this kind of regression on just about every other core question you asked, it's so interesting to see how connected these are.

是的。我来加几个统计术语，说明这个效应有多大。在科技行业，我们有点执着于统计显著性这个概念。但关于统计显著性，如果你有足够大的样本，你基本上总能达到显著性，无论这个效应在实际中有多大。更好的方法是使用效应量度量，比如这里的 Cohen's d。效应量告诉你的是这个事物在实际上有多重要。例如，去年我们看到的最大效应中，第一是你的经理。你的经理是谁以及他们有多有效，对你享受工作的程度、你的乐观程度以及你是否倦怠有着巨大的影响。我们稍后会看到一些。第二个大的效应是创始人幸福感效应。创始人，至少是目前正在创业的创始人，非常快乐，可能是因为他们相对于普通员工有更多的自主权和独立性。而关于 AI 对你的身份以及工作中每个其他变量的影响这一发现，其效应大小是那些效应的三倍。所以这项技术，我们所在的这个时代，对人们的工作感受产生了异常巨大、超乎寻常的影响，比我们见过的任何其他因素都要大。所以我们来看看这些数据，这个分类如何与乐观、倦怠等联系起来，因为我们还会回来讨论这个分界到底是什么，一个能告诉你站在哪一边的问题。但先看这个。我们稍后会深入探讨一些东西。但总的来说，你在这里看到的是 AI 身份立场，然后是根据你的 AI 身份对职业乐观、倦怠、裁员担忧的细分，还有一个我觉得很有趣的问题，我们会进一步讨论：你会向现在进入这个行业的人推荐你的角色吗？你可以看到，随着从感到被放大的人转向感到被削弱的人，职业乐观度显著下降。倦怠报告显著上升。裁员担忧也显著上升。也许所有发现中最重要的是，鉴于 AI 正在发生的事情，人们不会推荐初级、早期职业的人现在进入科技劳动力市场。你看到这些非常线性、清晰且有组织的影响，这恰恰说明了 AI 对这些不同变量的影响。我喜欢的是，你利用所有这些数据点创造了当今人们的四种原型。我觉得每个听众都会想，哦，那就是我。所以我们来聊聊这个。

Yeah. And just to put a couple of statistical terms on this to clarify how big the effect is, in tech we are somewhat obsessed with the notion of statistical significance. But the thing about statistical significance is that if you have a large enough sample, you can sort of reach that type of significance regardless of how much the effect matters practically. A better way to look at things is using an effect size measure like Cohen's d in this case. And what effect size tells you is practically how much does this thing matter. So for example, last year a couple of the largest effects we saw were number one, your manager. Who your manager is and how effective they are matters a ton to how much you're enjoying your job and how optimistic you are and how burnt out you are or not. And we'll see some of that later on. And the second large effect we found was the founder happiness effect. Founders, at least people who are currently founders and in their journey of running a startup, are incredibly happy, probably because they have a lot of agency and autonomy relative to the typical employee. This finding, this insight around the impact of AI on your identity and on every single other variable around your job is about three times as large as those other effects. So this technology, this era that we're in is having an outlier-level, outsized impact on how people are feeling about work, more so than anything else we've seen. So let's actually look at that data of just how this classification connects to optimism, burnout, things like that, because we're going to come back to what exactly is that divide, just a question to ask that tells you which side you're on. But let's look at this first. So we'll dive into some of these things in a little more depth later on. But just to put it all together, what you're looking at here is the AI identity stance and then a breakdown by your AI identity around career optimism, burnout, layoff worry, and an interesting one for me, and we'll talk about this further: Would you recommend your role to someone coming into the industry now? And what you can see is that as you move from the people who feel amplified to the people who feel diminished, career optimism goes down significantly. Burnout or reports of burnout go up significantly. Layoff worry also rises significantly. And perhaps the most significant finding of them all is that people would not recommend junior people, early career people entering into the tech workforce at this moment given what's happening with AI. And you're seeing these very linear, clear, and organized effects, which just demonstrates the impact that AI is having on all of these different variables. And what I love is you took all of these data points and you've created these four archetypes of people today. And I feel like everyone listening is going to be like, okay, that's me. So let's go through that.

是的。所以我们看到了这四类科技工作者。我们得出这个结果的方法是，在调查的后半部分，我们询问了人们的感受，并要求他们报告具体情绪。

Yeah. So, we're seeing these four tech workers. And the way we got to this is later on in the survey, we asked people about how they're feeling and to report specific emotions.

参与者可以随意选择多种情绪。有趣的是，平均每人选了五种情绪。有些人选了多达 13 种，数量可观。我们发现的第一个原型是"充满活力的技术工作者"，占总样本的 41%。这些人觉得产品又变得有趣了，他们在探索，感觉像置身技术游乐园，一切都可以尝试。他们说："我现在是建造者，拥有前所未有的能力。"他们对自己的职业和技术充满热情。第二个群体我们称为"矛盾的中立派"，占 35%。这些人一方面觉得自己的工作从未如此有趣，无论是作为建造者、产品经理、设计师还是工程师；另一方面，他们又感到职业上从未有过的迷茫，不知道这个趋势会把他们的工作带向何方，甚至是否会终结他们的职业生涯。第三个原型是"迷失方向的人"，他们觉得自己的角色在不断变化。有受访者说："我们就像站在工业革命前夜的农民，看不清前方的路。"这些人对职业走向感到非常困惑。最后，12% 的人被归为"愤懑型"，他们感到压力巨大、心不在焉、对工作毫无享受。他们会说："我被迫使用 AI，否则就会失业。即使用了 AI，我仍然看到别人失业。我痛恨这种局面，宁愿做自己的事，忽略这项技术，但现在没人能忽视它。"所以很多人感到不满、愤懑和迷茫。与此同时，也有很多人充满活力。有意思的是，人们对技术的感受如此不同，有人享受，有人煎熬。我们需要对那些过得不太好的人抱有同理心，因为不是每个人都充满干劲。这是个重要的观点：很多人正在经历艰难时期。

And people could choose as many emotions as they wanted. Fun fact: on average, people selected five different emotions. A couple of people selected 13 emotions, which is a lot. The first archetype we found is the energized tech worker, 41% of our sample. These people said product has become fun again. They're exploring. They feel like they're in a tech amusement park where everything is open to experiment. They say, 'I'm a builder now. I have powers I've never had before.' They are very energized about the technology and their careers. The second group we called the conflicted, the ambivalent middle, 35% of the sample. These people are having the most fun they've ever had as builders, PMs, designers, engineers, whatever their role. But they are also feeling the most uncertainty they've ever felt in their careers. They don't understand where this is going and whether they are building things that will lead to the end of their careers as they know it. The third archetype is the disoriented. Their role keeps shifting. One respondent said, 'We're like farmers on the cusp of the industrial revolution, and we don't see a clear path forward.' These people are very disoriented about their career direction. Finally, 12% we categorized as resentful. They feel pressured, checked out, not enjoying their work. They say things like, 'I've been forced to use AI or lose my job. Even when I use AI, I still see people losing jobs. I hate it. I hate having to leverage this technology rather than do my own thing and ignore it, which we can't ignore anymore.' So there are many people who are very unhappy, resentful, disoriented. And conversely, many people are extremely energized. It's interesting to see how different people are. Some are having a great time, some a bad time. We need to have empathy for those not doing as well, because not everyone is energized. I think that's an important point: a lot of people are having a really hard time.

我完全同意你，Lenny。考虑到技术变化的速度，我觉得我们花了太多精力去掌握新技术、弄清楚该怎么应对新发布、新模型、新功能、提示工程等等。我们却没有花足够的时间去维护工作中的关系，去关心同事、帮助同伴更好地使用技术、成长、成功，并和那些对技术有不同看法的人合作。我希望大家，特别是那些充满活力的人，能把一部分精力投入到身边的人身上，而不是只盯着 AI 的下一个进展。

I really agree with you, Lenny. Given the pace of change, I feel too much focus is spent on mastering the technology and figuring out what to do with new releases, models, capabilities, prompt engineering, whatever is next. We're not spending enough time on our relationships at work, seeing colleagues, supporting peers to work with this technology, thrive, succeed, and collaborate with people who don't share our perception of it. I would love to see all of us, especially the energized ones, take some of that energy and invest it in the people around you, rather than solely focusing on whatever comes next with AI.

我们进入下一个结论。聊聊倦怠和乐观情绪。

Let's go to the next takeaway. Let's talk about burnout and optimism.

是的。去年我们研究了倦怠和乐观情绪。倦怠水平已经令人担忧，我们因此发布了进一步的研究并提出了 ARM 框架。这次我不太确定会看到什么。我原本希望乐观情绪能保持稳定，倦怠不会加剧，因为更好的模型和更强的能力可能让我们工作不那么辛苦。但现实并非如此。明显倦怠——超过中度水平——从 2025 年的 44.7% 上升到了 2026 年的 54.7%。倦怠正在激增。超过一半的样本感到明显倦怠。与此同时，对个人角色和职业未来的乐观情绪从 2025 年的 54.8% 下降到了 2026 年的 48.7%。这对技术圈来说是坏消息。我不知道该说什么，只能说这很糟糕。我不喜欢这样。我完全理解人们为什么会有这种感觉。倦怠水平在一年内猛增了超过 10%。

Yeah. So last year we looked at burnout and optimism. Burnout was at a worrying level, enough that we published further research and introduced the ARM framework. This time, I wasn't sure what to expect. I hoped optimism would hold steady and burnout wouldn't go up, because with better models and new abilities, we might not have to work as hard. But that's not what we're seeing. Significant burnout — higher than moderate — went from 44.7% in 2025 to 54.7% in 2026. Burnout is surging. Over half our sample feels significantly burnt out. At the same time, optimism about the future of our roles and careers fell from 54.8% in 2025 to 48.7% in 2026. Bad news for the tech community. I don't know what to say, other than that sucks. I don't like this. I get it completely. I can understand why people feel this. A massive jump of over 10% increase in burnout in just one year.

是的，这很有意思。你之前邀请过几位嘉宾谈论相关话题。我很喜欢你与 Ramp 的 Jeff 的对话。他提到他状态最差的时候正是工作进展最慢的时候。当你把精力投入到无法推动的事情上时，你会感觉不好，从而导致倦怠。这与"停滞导致倦怠"的理论相符。而现在的情况恰恰相反。数据显示，随着我们交付速度前所未有地加快——从每天几个 PR 增加到每天 30 个 PR，做更多的事情——虽然可能有趣，但我们的倦怠程度却比以前更高了。我们并没有减少工作强度。我们只是承担了更多：更多原型、更多 PRD、更多 PR、更多营销活动、更多智能体、更多广告。这导致了更严重的倦怠。

Yeah. And it's interesting. You've had several guests talk about related topics. I loved your conversation with Jeff from Ramp. He shared that his worst burnout happened when velocity was lowest. When you put effort into things that don't move, it feels bad and leads to burnout. That matches theories where stagnation causes burnout. What's happening now is the opposite. The data shows that as we ship faster than ever — from a couple of PRs a day to 30 PRs a day, doing so much more — it might be fun, but we are burning out more than before. We're not working any less hard. We're just taking on more: more prototypes, PRDs, PRs, campaigns, agents, ads. And it's leading to more burnout.

没错，这其实是我们要讨论的一个结论。你提到的一线希望是，人们对工作的享受程度仍然很高。尽管倦怠存在，但人们享受工作的水平和去年持平。让我感到希望的是，人们能够展现出以前无法展现的身份侧面和热情。比如，如果你名义上是产品经理，但内心住着一个设计师；或者你是市场人员，但体内有一个工程师渴望被释放出来。

Yeah. That's actually one of the takeaways we'll discuss. The glimmer of hope you pointed out is that enjoyment of work is still very high. Despite burnout, people are enjoying their work at the same levels as last year. What gives me hope is that people can bring out aspects of their identity and passions they couldn't before. For example, if you're a PM by role but have a designer within you, or a marketer with an engineer inside wanting to come out.

现在你就能做到，对吧？如今可用的各种工具能让你展现出个性的那些侧面和职业抱负。这正是人们真正享受的事情。我们正在摆脱传统的专业领域，一定比例的职位正在演变成别的东西。第二件人们觉得有趣的事是，他们能够实现那些不久前似乎不可能实现的东西，无论是在主业中还是副业里。所以对许多科技从业者来说，这仍然是一个激动人心且令人享受的时代，因为我们可以做到我们从未想过能做到的事，因为这些事超出了我们的角色范围、超出了我们认为技术上可行的范围，或者出于其他原因。

Now, you can, right? Various tools that are available to us these days enable you to bring out those sides of your personality and those professional aspirations. And that's something that people are really enjoying. We're sort of escaping our classic swim lanes and a certain percentage of our roles are transforming into something else. And then the second thing that people are saying that they're finding enjoyable is that they are able to manifest things that they've wanted to build that seemed impossible not very long ago. And that's whether it's in their main job or things that they're doing on the side. So it is still for many people in tech an exciting time and an enjoyable time because we can do things that we never thought we'd be able to do because they're outside of our role, because they're outside of what felt technically feasible or for other reasons.

这是另一个数据点。在最后你会得到一堆关于如何处理所有这些信息的建议，这与你之后推荐的内容相关。但在那之前，另一个非常有趣的发现是关于裁员以及裁员如何影响对裁员的恐惧、进而影响职业倦怠。请谈谈这个。我们确实询问了人们对被裁员的担忧程度。正如你所见，72% 的受访者在一定程度上担心被裁员，41.2% 至少中度担心被裁员。所以很明显，人们觉得在使用 AI 时，他们可能在锯断自己坐着的树枝。人们报告说，他们的公司全力投入智能体，全力投入这些技术，感觉他们可能在某个时候被淘汰。所以担忧程度很高。我认为如果你在看这个，你开始注意到这个社区中现在存在大量矛盾情绪，大量情感冲突——感到精力充沛、享受工作，同时又不那么乐观、感到疲惫，并担心所有乐趣会在某一天结束，当我的公司决定我不再被需要时。我觉得很多听众可能都感受到了这些，并且感觉被理解了。那么有趣的是，到目前为止有两个主要发现。一个是正在发生的分化，以及进一步细分人群的原型。同时，总体而言，职业倦怠显著增加，乐观情绪在下降。请谈谈你如何看待这两者并存的状况。这个观点是很多人更快乐、享受人生最好的时光，很多人却过得很糟，但总体而言乐观情绪和倦怠发生了转变。

And this is another data point. At the end of this you have a bunch of recommendations of what to do with all this information, and that connects to something that you recommend later. But before we get there, one of the other really interesting takeaways was around layoffs and how layoffs impact fear of layoffs impact burnout. Talk about that. We did ask people how worried they are about being laid off. And as you can see, 72% of our sample are worried to a certain extent about being laid off, and 41.2% are at least moderately worried about being laid off. So it is clear that people are feeling that they might be cutting the branch that they're sitting on when it comes to using AI. People are reporting that their companies going all in on agents, all in on these technologies, and it does feel like they may be pushed out at some point. So the worry level is high. And I think if you're watching this, you're starting to notice that there's a ton of ambivalence right now in the community and a ton of clashes between emotions, feeling energized and enjoying my job and at the same time not being very optimistic about it and feeling tired from it and feeling worried that all of that enjoyment is going to end one day when the company I work for decides that I'm no longer needed. I feel a lot of people listening are probably feeling all this and feeling heard. So what's interesting is so far the kind of two takeaways. One is this bifurcation that's happening and these kind of archetypes that break that group a little bit further. At the same time just broadly burnout is increasing significantly. Optimism is declining. Talk about just those two kind of how you think about those two side by side. This idea of many people are much happier and having the best time of their life, many people are having a really bad time, but then broadly this optimism and burnout shift.

我觉得这项技术有某种让人上瘾的东西。我为自己说一句：在我的职业生涯中，我从未像使用这些技术时那样开心过。我每天花太多小时摆弄和构建东西。我认为我们很多人，即使是那些不那么热衷于这项技术的人，仍然觉得自己身处一个迷人的科技游乐场。很难离开技术去接触现实、读书或做任何你业余喜欢的事情，Lenny。所以是的，我们享受使用这项技术，因为它为我们打开了前所未有的途径。但另一方面，这很累。不断学习这项技术、不断尝试在不同场景中应用它、不断承担超出传统角色要求的工作，这很累，因为再也没有传统角色了。现在我们都只是建设者，不管在公司里是否正式如此。所以我认为这自然导致了这些冲突的情绪：一方面是对可能性的兴奋和使用 AI 的乐趣，另一方面是意识到这项技术之所以如此激动人心，是因为它太强大了。而因为它太强大，它可能正在逼近我们，夺走我们的工作，对吧？你看《终结者》电影长大的吗？我一直在想《终结者》。

I think there's something addictive about this technology. And I'll speak for myself for a second and say that I've also never had as much fun in my career as when using these technologies. And I've been using it for too many hours a day playing about and building. I think many of us, even those who aren't as energized about the technology, we still feel like we're in this fascinating technological playground. And it's very very hard to disengage from that technology and touch grass, read a book, whatever you love to do in your spare time as well, Lenny. And so, yes, we're enjoying using this technology because it's opened up avenues that we've never had. But on the other hand, it's tiring. It's tiring to be constantly learning this technology and constantly trying to apply it in different contexts and constantly try to take on more than what your traditional role dictated because again there aren't any traditional roles anymore. We're just all builders these days, whether that's an official thing within a company or not. And so I think that naturally this leads to these clashing emotions, these exciting feelings around what's possible and how fun it is to use AI. And on the other hand, the realization that the reason this technology is so exciting is because it's so powerful. And because it's so powerful, it might be coming for us and to take our jobs, right? Did you grow up on the Terminator movies? I keep thinking about the Terminator movies.

我不知道是不是长大的时候看的，不过是的，我很早就看了……

I don't know about growing up, but yes, I watched them early in my...

天哪，我爱那些电影，我忍不住想，你知道的，机器人什么时候会来抓我们。所以，不可思议的技术可能在某一天会找上我们。天网正在被建造。

Oh my gosh, I love those movies and I just can't help but wonder, you know, when the robots are coming for us. So, incredible technology might be coming for us at some point. Skynet is being built right now.

天网要来了。

Skynet is coming.

所以，这里会有一个非常好的结论。不过在我们讲到那个之前，实际上每个发现都很有趣。我们来看下一个发现：关于人们对自身职业的看法以及他们是否会推荐它。这对我来说很疯狂，因为在研究圈子里，我是出了名的净推荐值（NPS）厌恶者。我甚至建了一个专门反对 NPS 的网站。NPS is the worst.com.

So, there's going to be a really great takeaway around this. Before we get to that one, actually, it's like every single one is so interesting. Let's get to the next takeaway around people's sense of their own career and whether they recommend it. This is a wild one for me because at least within the research community, I am known as the net promoter score hater. I even built a website dedicated to fighting NPS. NPS is the worst.com.

还真有这样一个网站。

It's an actual website.

顺便说一句，有趣的事实：我非常讨厌 NPS，以至于我甚至买了域名 NPSthebest.com，并把访问者重定向到 NPSW.com。这就是我反对 NPS 的决心。但你我都很好奇：那些已经入行几年、职位可能达到高级或以上的从业者，会对现在进入这个行业的人说什么？或者会对考虑进入这个行业的人说什么？他们会向朋友或家人推荐自己的职位以及更广泛的科技行业吗？答案令人震惊，绝对令人震惊。所以，让我展示一下相关数据。我先快速解释一下 NPS，因为它不太好理解。NPS 就是那个问题：你是否会向朋友或家人推荐一个产品，在这里就是你的职位？评分从 0 到 10，10 表示绝对推荐，0 表示绝对不推荐。但整体计算时，NPS 从 -100（非常糟糕）到 +100。0 分代表中立，意味着样本整体中立。用 NPS 的话说，既不是推荐者（即我会向他人推荐我的职位），也不是贬损者（即我对我的职位没有负面看法）。这就是 0 分。你现在看到的是，目前科技行业中没有一个人是自己的职位的推荐者。连创始人也不例外——他们现在是科技行业中最乐天派的人。创始人也不会推荐自己的职位。

Fun fact, by the way, I dislike NPS so much that I even brought the domain NPSthebest.com and I forward people from that to NPSW.com. That's how committed I am to fighting NPS. But you and I were both genuinely curious about whether people who are already a few years in and they're maybe senior or above senior in their roles, what would they say to the person entering the industry now? Or what would they say to a person considering entering the industry now? Would they recommend their role and the tech industry more broadly to a friend or a relative of theirs? And the answer was shocking. Absolutely shocking. So, let me show you the data around this. And let me preface this with a quick explanation on NPS because it's not so easy to understand. NPS is this question around whether you would recommend a product or in this case your role to a friend or family member, right? And the scale goes from 0 to 10. 10 being you would absolutely recommend your role and zero being you would absolutely not recommend your role. But then NPS as a whole when it's calculated goes from minus 100 which is absolutely terrible to plus 100. And the zero point represents neutrality. It represents that the sample as a whole is neutral. It's not a promoter to use NPS speak meaning I would promote my role to other people. I would recommend it to other people. And they're not detractors either, which means I'm not negative about my role. So that's the zero point. What you're seeing here is that no one is a promoter of their role in tech right now. Not even founders who are by far the happiest happy-go-lucky people in tech right now. Founders would not recommend their roles.

销售或市场人员也不会推荐自己的岗位。PM、运营、工程，最糟糕的是设计师和研究员——我的社群——最不可能向新入行者推荐自己的角色。这有点像在说：我在这个池子里游泳，水还算可以，但你不该踏入科技这片水域，这里不适合你。

Neither would people in sales or go to market. PMs, operations, engineering, and the worst of all, designers and researchers, my community are the least likely to recommend their role to other people coming into tech. It's sort of like saying, you know, I'm kind of swimming in this pool. The water's kind of okay, but you shouldn't come into these tech waters. They ain't for you.

天哪，这个发现和研究的这部分真有意思。所以，看看这张图，大家看到时都心想：「不，别干我这行。」挺有意思的。我们要聊聊创始人为何是科技行业最快乐的人，但这依然是一份压力巨大的苦差事。我很惊讶它竟然是推荐最少的——你会以为很多创始人会说：「这是最疯狂、最艰难的工作，你不该做，太糟了。」但有趣的是，他们是最不快乐的，也是最不乐意推荐的。

My god, what an interesting takeaway and part of this research. So, just looking at this chart, as people are seeing this, everyone is like, 'Nope, don't do what I do.' It's interesting. We're going to talk about how founders are the happiest people in tech, but still it's a very stressful hard job. I'm surprised it's the least—like you would think many founders would be like, 'This is the craziest, gnarliest job. You should not do this, it sucks.' But it's interesting. They're the least unhappy. They're the least likely to recommend.

现在有一个强烈的说法：没有比现在更适合做创始人。你不再那么依赖别人来构建产品。围绕 solo 创业者和双人创业者的讨论很多，对吧？很多讨论都在说这是创始人的时代，但那些正在做创始人的人却不太乐意推荐这个角色给别人。还有另一层：随着资历下降，你推荐自己角色的可能性也越低。所以高管、VP，甚至总监都更愿意推荐他们的角色，而个人贡献者则不然。这很有意思。我见过各种各样的解释。比如一个解释是，金字塔顶端的 VP 从 AI 中获益更多，因为他们能通过 AI 处理信息流和知识，让工作轻松很多。而 IC 们则各自在公司内部拼命构建各种微型 SaaS 产品，没人知道别人在做什么，重复工作很多。如今构建产品容易多了，但维护却难得多。所以很多 IC 感觉就像那句老话说的：「空档踩油门」对吧？你一脚油门踩到底，但车挂着空挡，哪儿也去不了。我觉得这就是很多 IC 现在对这些技术的感受。我不断构建这些东西，但并没有达到我想要的影响力。其他人也在构建，一团混乱，已经不值得了。还有一个有趣趋势，你知道网上有个梗：「别成为永久底层阶级」。我感觉有几个线索贯穿全文，比如「好吧，我是 PM，但太晚了，别干这个」。这个角色的门正在关闭。事情在变，不仅是 PM，每个角色都是。大家就是觉得：「也许该干点别的了。」

There's a strong narrative right now that there's never been a better time to be a founder. You're a lot less reliant on other people to build. There's a ton of conversations around the solopreneur or the duopreneur, right? It says a ton of conversations around how this is the era to be a founder and yet people who are currently in that role aren't very excited about recommending it to other people. There's also another layer to this which is as you go down in seniority you're less likely to recommend your role. So execs, VPs, maybe even directors are sort of more likely to recommend their role than people who are ICs. That's an interesting one. And I've seen all sorts of explanations for that. One explanation, for example, is that at the top of the pyramid VPs are benefiting more from AI because they're getting all of this stream of information and knowledge being processed by AI making their jobs a lot easier. Whereas ICs are each scrambling to build all of these micro SaaS products within the companies they work for. No one knows what anyone else is doing. There's a lot of duplicative work. It's a lot easier to build products these days, but a lot harder to maintain them. And so I think a lot of ICs are feeling like um there's a saying, 'Full gas on neutral,' right? Like you're pushing the pedal to the metal in your car, but you're in neutral gear. You're not going anywhere. I think that that's the feeling that a lot of ICs are having these days with these technologies. Like I keep building these things but I'm not having the impact I want. Everyone else is building too, there's a lot of confusion and it's just not worth it anymore. There's this interesting trend, you know, there's this whole meme of 'don't become part of the permanent underclass.' And I feel like there's a few of these threads throughout this and here it's like 'Okay I'm like a PM but it's too late. Don't do this.' The door is closing for this role. Things are changing and it's not just PM, it's every role. Everyone's just like, 'Maybe should do something else.'

是的，我同意你的观点，而且这很遗憾。我觉得过去人们被推向计算机科学去学编程。但如今作为家长，我不知道该怎么告诉我的孩子该做什么了。我不确定几年后还会有什么岗位等着他们。现在是非常困惑的时代，科技从业者也有同感。他们不明白未来等待他们的是什么。我们当然没法向别人推荐，说「五年后会很棒」——没人知道。退一步看，我们现在经历的巨变太疯狂了。一两年之前我们绝对不会看到这个结果。这种动荡和不确定对科技界的人来说是全新的。

Yeah, I would agree with that and I think it's unfortunate. I feel like in the past people were pushed to CS to learn to code. I know that these days for myself as a parent, I don't know what to tell my kids to do anymore. I'm not sure what roles will be there for them in just a few years. These are very confusing times and I think tech employees are feeling that as well. They don't understand what's in line for them in the future. We certainly don't know to recommend to others, like 'Yeah, in 5 years it's going to be great'—no one knows. Just zoom out for a moment. It's insane how much change we're living through right now. We would not have seen this result a year or two ago. This is so unstable and uncertain and this is very new for people in tech, I think.

是的，我喜欢用自己生活中其他领域的隐喻或例子来解释这些事。我记得你之前采访过 Cognition 的联合创始人兼 CEO Scott Wu，也就是 Devin 的创造者。我记得他描述产品时提到了一个梯子，产品在梯子上逐级上升：从高中计算机学生到大学实习生，再到初级工程师，现在大概是高级或 Staff 级工程师。我想说，我们都在看着这项技术攀登梯子的横档并向前推进，同时感觉技术正从我们脚下抽走那些横档。所以你在梯子上爬得越高，对职业的感觉就越安稳；但爬得越低，脚下的横档就越被抽走。这样一来，我们当然不想推荐别人也爬上这个梯子——因为横档正在消失。

Yeah, I like to use certain metaphors or examples from other areas in my life to explain these things. I believe you spoke in the past to Scott Wu, the co-founder and CEO of Cognition, and the makers of Devin. I recall that when he described the product, he talked about this ladder that the product progressed on. It went from a high school CS student to a college intern to a junior engineer and at this point probably a senior or staff level engineer. I would say that we are all watching this technology climb the rungs of this ladder and advance, and we feel like the technology is pulling those rungs from under us. And so the further we've gone up the ladder, the better we feel about our careers and the more stability we have. But the lower we are on that ladder, those rungs are getting pulled under our feet. And so it makes lots of sense that we wouldn't recommend being on that ladder to anyone else because the rungs are disappearing.

天呐，和 Elise 还有好多要聊的，但让我先指出几点，然后我们继续下一个发现。第一，有趣的是销售和 PM 对「别入这行」的态度最不严重。我没想到。销售对角色未来不那么恐惧？PM 有意思，这个群体很大，也不那么恐惧。就像你说的，研究类和设计类最「别干这个」。作为研究员，你之前提到过一点，但我很好奇：看到这个你是什么感受？

Man, there's so much to talk about with Elise, but let me point out a couple things as I look at this and then we can move on to the next takeaway. One is, it's interesting that sales and PM are the least bad at 'don't get into this role.' I did not expect that. Sales people not as scared about the future of the role? PM interesting, that's a big audience here not as scared. As you said, research and design the most 'don't do this.' As a researcher, you touched on this a little bit, but I'm just curious: how does it feel seeing this?

这很难受。我觉得研究社群多年来一直活在很多担忧、创伤和焦虑中——关于在决策桌上拥有一席之地、关于在工作中找到意义、关于研究的民主化等话题，还有其他人接手我们的角色并最终取代我们。看到这个结果确实很痛心。我认为研究在未来产品构建中需要扮演非常重要的角色。随着这项技术的进步，我们应该对构建什么更加深思熟虑，而不是更少。我听过那种「构建成本很低，那就造一千个原型看看哪个有效」的说法。我想你在最近的对话中也听过。我建议那样只会让我们更倦怠。我个人不推荐那种做法。我认为研究和设计在提升可能性天花板方面有非常重要的作用。而 AI 主要是降低了门槛，但并没有抬高天花板。

It's tough. I think the research community has lived with a lot of concerns and trauma and anxiety over the years around having a seat at the table, around finding meaning in our work, around topics like the democratization of research, and other people taking on our roles and eventually replacing us. It definitely hurts a lot to see this. I think there's a very important role that research needs to play in the future of building products. I think that as this technology progresses, we should become even more thoughtful about what we build, rather than less thoughtful. I've heard the narratives around 'it's so cheap to build, just build a thousand prototypes and see what works.' I think you heard this in a recent conversation as well. I would suggest that we're just going to get even more burnt out that way. I would not recommend that approach personally. I think research and design have a very important part to play in raising the ceiling of what's possible. Whereas AI has mostly lowered the bar, but it hasn't raised the ceiling.

而且我也可以告诉你，PM 们更有可能推荐自己的岗位，尽管他们其实并不太愿意推荐——这对我来说其实说得通。我认为这是一个通才型的岗位，比其他一些岗位更加通才。如果你问我，现在就是通才的时代，也就是 AI 时代。最让我惊讶的是销售和市场岗位。因为如果我们真的处于某种 SaaS 末日——我个人并不认为如此，但确实有人这么说——那我觉得销售和市场人员不应该对推荐自己岗位感觉太好。但也许他们相信，目前 AI 还无法完成销售工作。

And I can also tell you that PMs being somewhat more likely to recommend their roles, even though they're not likely to recommend their roles, does actually make sense to me. It's more of a generalist role, I would claim, than some of these other roles. And this is the era of the generalist, if you ask me, the AI era. I'm the most surprised by sales and go-to-market. Because if we are indeed in some sort of SaaS apocalypse, which I don't personally believe we are, but it's been said, then I don't think sales and go-to-market people should be feeling too great about recommending their roles. But maybe they believe that sales at this point cannot be done by AI.

是的，我想谈的太多了。有一点很重要——这是一个非常重要的提醒——这并不意味着设计或研究岗位会消失。这只是说，目前从事这些岗位的人脑海里的叙事是‘不要选这个’。这并不意味着一切都结束了，因为这可能只是我们一直听到的那些炒作——我们几位嘉宾也有责任推波助澜——但这只是人们的感受，并不代表实际情况。100% 如此。科技界这个独特项目完全关乎人们的感受，而不是在科技行业工作的现实。它关乎人的情绪，关乎人们的感觉。我真的认为，除了我们，没有人像我们这样捕捉到了这些情绪。但没错，这是一个很好的提醒：这不是现实的图景，而是科技界人们当下感受的图景。

Yeah, there's just so much I want to talk about here. It's important to note – and this is a very important note – that this doesn't mean design is going away or research is going away. This just says that people in that role right now have the narrative in their head: 'Don't do this.' It does not mean it's over, because it could just be all this hype we keep hearing – and we're guilty of adding to it from various guests – but this is just how people feel, it doesn't mean this is what's happening. 100%. This entire unique project in tech is all about how people feel. It's not about the realities of working in tech. It's about people's emotions, about how people feel. I really do think no one other than us has captured these emotions in the way we have. But yeah, that's a great reminder. This is not an image of reality. This is an image of how people are feeling in tech right now.

另一个需要传达的数据点。你之前提到了这一点，但我不确定你是否把它说清楚了。这个问题是关于‘你会推荐别人进入你的岗位吗？’我们还问了‘你对自己岗位感觉如何？你在这个岗位上开心吗？’结果发现：其实我干得还不错，我很开心——我是 PM，我开心，设计师、研究员也开心。所以就像你说的，这是一种‘水很好但别下来’的情况。稍微谈谈这点，确保意思清楚。

Another quick data point we want to make sure to communicate here. You touched on this, but I don't know if you actually made it as clear to people as it should be. So this is looking at 'Would you recommend people get into my role?' We also asked just 'How are you feeling about your role? Are you happy being in this role?' And the result there was: I'm actually doing okay, I'm happy – I'm a PM, I'm happy, a designer, researcher. So as you said, it's this kind of 'the water's fine but don't get in.' Talk a little bit about that just to make sure that point is clear.

当我们问人们是否享受工作时，如我们之前所讨论，大多数人表示总体上是愉快的，他们在自己的岗位上有乐趣。我认为这里的情况是，人们再次缺乏乐观情绪——相比以前，乐观情绪下降了。所以，人们对自己岗位的当前感受（基于他们已取得的职业成就和所处层级）与他们推测的一年后、三年后、五年后可能发生的情况之间存在巨大差异。人们推测的情况显然比当前体验更负面。所以，总的来说，我们这个行业还过得去。我们在享受，在尝试新事物。我们正经历着工作方式的彻底变革，这在一段时间内很有趣，但似乎人们觉得这个方向不太对。当然，我希望我们都错了。我希望我们都错了。

When we asked people things like whether they are enjoying their job, as we talked about earlier, most people said overall yes, they're having fun in their role. I think what's going on here is that again people are lacking optimism compared to what they were, right? Optimism has gone down. So there's a big difference between how people are feeling now about their role given what they've achieved in their careers and where they are on the ladder, compared to what they extrapolate might happen in a year, in 3 years, in 5 years. And what people extrapolate might happen is clearly more negative than their current experiences. So yeah, all in all we're doing okay as an industry. We're enjoying, we're trying new things. We're experiencing a complete paradigm shift in how we work, and that's fun for a while, but it seems like people feel this is not going in the best direction. And of course I hope we're all wrong. I hope we're all wrong.

我也是。作为一个天生的乐观主义者，我觉得一切都会好起来的。走着瞧吧。

Me too. As a natural optimist, I'm like, it's gonna be all right. So, we'll see.

我也是天生的乐观主义者。我意识到到目前为止我们并没有太多处于乐观模式。所以我希望能达到那种状态。本期节目由Mercury赞助，Mercury是一种截然不同的银行服务，深受超过30万企业家喜爱，现在又推出了Command。我使用Mercury已经超过6年了，从未想过离开。Mercury就是由产品人而不是银行家打造的银行服务。他们让发发票、转账、为团队成员设置虚拟卡变得非常容易，我甚至敢说很有趣。你的银行有API、原生CLI终端或支持AI的MCP服务器吗？我觉得没有。最近他们推出了Command，一个直接内置在Mercury中的对话式界面，充当你的财务操作员。我一直在用Command转账、找出我在哪些类别花费最多、分析现金流，就在今天我还用它查了过去一年从某个赞助商那里赚了多少钱。我问它‘过去一年我从X赚了多少钱？’10秒后就有了答案。太酷了。访问mercury.com了解更多并在几分钟内在线申请。Mercury是一家金融科技公司，非FDIC承保银行。银行服务由Choice Financial Group和Column NA（FDIC成员）提供。

I'm a natural optimist, too. And I'm realizing so far we haven't been in too much of optimism mode. So, I hope we manage to get to some of that as well. This episode is brought to you by Mercury, radically different banking, loved by over 300,000 entrepreneurs, and now with Command. I've been a customer of Mercury's for over 6 years. I have never once thought about leaving. Mercury is basically what happens when banking is built by product people, not by bankers. They make it so easy, dare I say fun, to send invoices, move money around, set up virtual cards for folks on my team. Does your bank have an API, a terminal native CLI, or an AI-ready MCP server? I don't think so. And just recently, they launched Command, a conversational interface built directly into Mercury, which acts as your financial operator. I've been using Command to transfer money around, to figure out what categories I've been spending the most money in, analyze my cash flows, and just today I used it to find out how much I've made from a specific sponsor over the past year. I just ask, 'How much have I made from X over the past year?' 10 seconds later, I have an answer. It is so freaking cool. Visit mercury.com to learn more and apply online in minutes. Mercury is a fintech company, not an FDIC insured bank. Banking services provided through Choice Financial Group and Column NA, members FDIC.

我们来谈谈第四点收获。我们研究了生产力、质量，以及AI的积极面。这一项对我来说非常有趣。在我们去年关于AI对生产力和质量影响的调查中，人们对这项技术相当看好，认为它让他们变得更好，不仅效率更高，而且质量更好。而这次我们看到了一些有趣的发现。让我从这个开始，这是初步的看法，但它引向了一个与我的预期截然不同的结果。当我们直接问‘AI让你的工作进步了多少？’时，答案毫无疑问是肯定的。你可以看到，97.2%的人说AI让他们工作做得更好，近50%的人说AI让他们变得非常好或极好。所以很显然，在宏观层面上——无论你怎么理解‘更好’，我们稍后会谈到——人们觉得AI产生了影响。但当你深入探究这意味着什么，并深入到表面之下时，你会发现‘做得更好’实际上意思与你想象的有所不同。当我听到人们说他们做得更好时，我以为那是字面意思。我以为他们的工作质量提高了，AI有助于提高工作质量。但事实恰恰相反。我们从人们那里听到了两件令人担忧的事情。第一件是：‘我能更快地做更多事，但质量并没有提高。’所以，AI降低了可能性的门槛，让人们能够比以前产出更多的工作——无论是PR、PRD、研究项目还是原型——但输出质量并没有提高。也许更令人担忧的影响，也就是我们听到的更深层的代价，是使用AI对思维和判断力的代价。人们基本上告诉我们：‘我的大脑在退化，我的工作感觉更糟了。’这和我最近听到的一个现象有关——我想是‘认知腐烂’这个词。

Let's talk about takeaway four. We looked at productivity, quality, just the upside of AI. This was a very interesting one to me. In last year's survey that we did on the impact of AI specifically on productivity and quality, people were rather bullish about the technology and how much better it makes them, not just more efficient but better. And this time around we saw some interesting findings. Let me start with this, and this is sort of the initial view, but it leads to something very different than I thought would happen. When we simply asked the question, 'How much better are you at your job thanks to AI?' Unequivocally the answer was yes. You can see here that 97.2% of people are saying that AI is making them better at their job, and close to 50% are saying that AI is making them very much or extremely better at their job. So it's very clear at a high level, however you interpret 'better' – which we'll get to in a second – people feel AI has had an impact. But when you dive deeper into what that means and go below the surface level, as you can see here, 'doing better' actually means something rather different than what you might think. So when I heard people say they're doing better, I thought they meant that literally. I thought the quality of their work was better, that AI was contributing to better quality of work. In fact, it's the exact opposite. What we heard from people were two concerning things. The first is: 'I can do more faster, but not better.' So again, AI has sort of lowered the floor of what's possible and enabled people to put out a lot more work than they ever have before, whatever that work is – whether it's PRs, PRDs, research projects, prototypes – but the output isn't of higher quality. And perhaps the even more concerning effect, which we heard about, the deeper cost of all of this, is the cost of using AI on thinking and judgment. People essentially told us: 'My brain is rotting, my work feels worse.' And this is related to a phenomenon I've heard about recently – is it 'cognitive rot' I think is what I've heard.

基本上就是这种现象：你看到 AI 模型的初始输出后，就差不多直接接受了。你不对它运用判断，也不进行思考，慢慢地，你的思维、你对工作的投入、你的自主性都会崩塌，陷入一种腐烂的状态。

Basically this phenomenon where you sort of see the initial output of an AI model and you sort of just accept it. You don't apply your judgment to it. You don't apply thinking to it and you slowly let your mind, your involvement in your work, your agency sort of collapse into this rotting state, so to speak.

是的，这个结论真的很有意思。就像你说的，我看了看数据：82% 的人表示 AI 至少让他们的工作有了中等程度的提升，近 50% 的人说提升很大或极大，这可能跟最开始的那个二分法有关——那些觉得 AI 让自己工作更出色的人，大概也是最充满干劲的人。

This yeah, this is such an interesting takeaway. As you said, I'm looking at the numbers here. 82% of people say AI is making them at least moderately better at their job and nearly 50% say very much or extremely better, which may correlate with that original just this bifurcation like the people that feel like AI is making them better at their job probably the people feel like most energized.

不管是不是真的，我觉得有几个让人欣慰的点。首先，人们确实觉得 AI 让自己变得更好，这种感受是真实的，哪怕实际上可能并非如此。同时，他们也意识到质量是个问题，还有‘我的编码能力或写战略文档的能力可能正在衰退’。所以至少人们意识到这件事正在发生，而不是盲目自信‘我做得超棒，我的所有产出质量都更高了，比以往任何时候都好。’

So whether it's true or not, I think there's a couple happy points. That's one: people feel AI is making them better, they feel that, so that's real even if it may not be. And at the same time, I think they're self-aware the quality is an issue. And also 'I'm maybe atrophying in my ability to code or write strategy docs.' So at least people are self-aware that this is happening. Not just 'I'm killing it, all my stuff is higher quality and much better than ever.'

他们是有自知之明，但你知道吗，我本身也是一名认证教练，我的建议是：光有自知之明还不够，我们需要采取行动。

They are self-aware, but you know, among other things I'm a certified coach and I would suggest that beyond being self-aware, we need to act on this.

我可以给这个现象提供几种解释。其中之一可能是 AI 的蜜月期已经结束了。我们曾以为它完美无缺，是自切片面包以来最棒的东西，但我们已经意识到它还没到那一步。是的，模型现在是最差的，它们只会变得更好，但在我们真正能说‘我的工作好太多了，我不需要那么投入了’之前，它们还有很多需要改进的地方。你们节目请过 Simon Willis，他谈到人们担心技能萎缩，担心自己学得不够，我们需要主动抵抗这种倾向，不要让自己认知腐烂。我认为这些数据表明我们在这场斗争中有点落于下风。我们需要投入更多精力来对抗这种认知腐烂，确保随着标准不断提高、技术持续进化，我们能通过刻意练习、刻意思考、刻意判断来迎接挑战。人们在这方面真的很差。就像如果我有一个‘简单按钮’，我就会按下去。我知道不应该，但就是会去拿那包多力多滋。所以挑战在于：因为你可以走捷径，所以很难抵制。这也再次联系到那个不断升高的梯子。人们刚开始接触这些东西，他们必须强迫自己用困难的方式来真正学会怎么做。我很好奇这对市场上那些初级的从业者意味着什么，他们真正学习如何编码、如何写作、如何用手指从头写一篇 PRD，而不是跟 Claude 聊出来。

There are several explanations I could give to this phenomenon. One of them might be that the honeymoon period with AI is over. We thought it was perfect, the best thing that ever happened to us since sliced bread, but we've realized it's not quite there yet. And yes, the models are the worst they're ever going to be; they're only getting better, but there's still so much they need to get better before we can really say, 'Yeah, my work is just so much better, and I don't need to be as involved with it.' You had Simon Willis on this show talking about how people are worried about skill atrophy, that they're not learning enough, and that we need to be consciously resistant to this and not let ourselves cognitively rot. I think this data suggests that we're losing that fight a little bit. We need to put more energy into fighting this cognitive rot and to make sure that as the bar continues to rise and this technology continues to evolve, we're meeting that with deliberate practice, deliberate thinking, deliberate judgment. People are just so bad at that. Just like if I have an easy button, I will press it. I know I shouldn't, but I'm just going to eat those Doritos. So that's the challenge: because you could do it the easy way, it's so hard to resist. And that connects again to this ladder that's being raised. People are just getting into this stuff. They have to make themselves do it the hard way to learn how to do it for real. And I'm really curious how that plays out with junior folks in the market learning how to actually code, how to do writing, how to write a PRD from scratch with your fingers versus talking to Claude about it.

嗯，这里可说的太多了。我觉得人们有时候会怀念那种自己很聪明的感觉，你知道吗。我曾经一度觉得自己很聪明，然后你碰到这些模型，最近是 Fable Five 第二次发布，你就不再觉得自己那么聪明了。你失去了过去那种自我效能感。关于这一点我想说的第二点是：每次是你自己（而不是 AI）解决了一个问题、克服了一个障碍，你的自我效能感、自信、自我信念的基线就会上升。而每次你把问题抛给你喜欢的 AI 模型，你就在降低这个基线，你的思考和判断力正在衰退。这是个严重的问题。所以也许用报告里我喜欢的一句话来总结这个观点：‘生产力提升是真实的，但工作质量以及产出者本人的敏锐度正在受到打击。’

Yeah, there's so much to say here. I think the more I think about it, people miss feeling smart sometimes, you know. I thought once upon a time about myself that I'm smart, and then you encounter these models, most recently Fable Five that just came out for the second time, and you don't feel that smart anymore. You sort of lose this sense of self-efficacy that you used to have. And the second thing to say about this is that every time you, not the AI, solve a problem and get over a barrier, it raises your baseline of self-efficacy, of self-confidence, of self-belief. And every time you offload that to your favorite AI model, you're lowering that baseline, and your thinking and your judgment is watching. And that's a serious problem. So maybe to just wrap up this takeaway, the sentence used in this report I love: 'The productivity gains are real, but the quality of the work and the sharpness of the person producing it are taking a hit.'

你的聪明才智。好了，我们来谈谈第五个结论吧，我也觉得这个特别有意思。天哪，这里面有趣的东西太多了。我们来聊聊第五个结论。

Your smartness. Okay, let's talk about takeaway number five, which I also thought was extremely interesting. My god, so much interesting in this. Let's talk about the fifth takeaway.

是的。我认为目前我们圈子里主流的叙事是对被取代的恐惧。正如我们所说，很多科技从业者确实害怕被取代、被裁员。所以如果有个问题，其中一个选项是‘我担心被 AI 抢走工作’，它应该排名很高。但当我们看这张幻灯片，当人们被问‘你的担忧是什么？你现在烦恼什么？你在科技领域害怕什么？’时，‘被 AI 抢走工作’实际上排在倒数第二。取而代之，排在顶端的是‘期望以同样的薪酬做更多的事’。就好像我们所有人都感觉被压榨，再压榨，要在更短的时间内完成更多事情，报酬却不变。所以害怕过度劳累是目前最主流的担忧，与之并列的第二项是‘节奏变得不可持续’。我所说的节奏，既指工作节奏和对工作速度的期望——每天必须产出多少，也指技术变革的速度，这需要你投入大量时间去学习新模型、新框架、新技术使用方法，而这些当然会占用你核心的专注工作时间。所以这是一个恶性的下降螺旋，真正让你感觉无法完成任何有意义的事情。你只是感到过度劳累、非常疲惫。我相信每一位听众都完全理解你在这里描述的一切。

Yeah. So, I think the dominant narrative right now in our community is the fear of being replaced. And as we talked about, a lot of people in tech do fear and are worried that they're going to be replaced, that they're going to be laid off. So it would make sense that if we had a question and one of the options to respond were 'I'm worried about losing my job to AI,' that it would rank fairly high. But when we look at this slide, when people are asked, 'What are your concerns? What's bothering you right now? What are you afraid of in tech?' Losing my job to AI is actually second to last on that list. Instead, what we saw rise up to the top is the expectation to do more for the same pay. It's almost as if we're all feeling like we're being squeezed and squeezed some more to accomplish more things in less time for the same pay. So that fear of being overworked is by far the dominant fear, alongside the second item on this list, which is that the pace is becoming unsustainable. By pace I mean both the pace of the work and the expectation of work velocity — just how much you have to put out a day every single day — and the pace of change of the technology, which requires you to invest a significant amount of time in learning the new model, the new framework, the new way to use the technology, which of course takes away from your core focused working time. So it's sort of an evil downward spiral that really prevents you from feeling like you're able to accomplish anything of meaning. You just feel very overworked, very tired. I'm confident everybody listening understands exactly what you're describing here.

这显然和我们之前提到的倦怠点相关。我用你文章中的一段话来结束这个结论。你写得真好，Nom。‘AI 解锁的速度直接被转化为更高的期望。每一次跃升都成为新的基准线，而被要求达到这个基准的人，已经快要喘不过气来了。’

Obviously connects to that burnout point we made earlier. I'll close this takeaway with another quick read from your post. You're such an amazing writer, Nom. 'The speed AI unlocked got plowed straight back into expectations. Every game becomes the new baseline and the people expected to hit it are running out of room to breathe.'

我们什么时候才能进入这一集的乐观部分？

When are we going to get to the optimistic part of this episode?

也许我们会找到一些。好吧，我们来谈谈第 6 点，它有一点乐观。

Maybe we'll find something. Okay, let's talk about 6, which has a little bit of optimism.

哦，是的。好吧。用很多矛盾心理来形容是另一种说法。

Oh, yeah. Okay. A lot of ambivalence is another way you put it.

是的，我之前提到过。这个行业确实处于一种矛盾心理的状态。我们试图捕捉人们现在在工作中感受到的所有情绪。我很高兴地报告，正如你在这里看到的，排在前两位的情绪是积极的：好奇和兴奋。这很好，这是乐观的。我很高兴情况如此。人们分享说他们对技术、能力以及他们能够实现的东西感到兴奋。他们对未来可能带来什么，以及随着这些模型和系统继续发展他们还能做什么感到好奇。所以这很好。但当你往下看这个列表时，你会看到积极、消极和中性情绪非常有趣的混合。人们也感到不知所措、矛盾、在某种意义上如释重负——关于人工智能以一种好的方式从他们身上拿走了什么，他们能够卸载给人工智能的东西。然后人们感到疲倦、精疲力竭，就像我们说的，只是努力工作，不安、焦虑，然后还有希望。所以正如你所见，这里有各种各样的情绪。真的很难弄清楚到底发生了什么。但我特别想提一件事，尼基尔·辛加尔在你的一期节目中提到过——我知道他是这个播客的朋友，也是产品和技术社区中一位了不起的领导者。他谈到了微笑的疲惫。我非常喜欢这个词，因为我认为它抓住了这种矛盾心理。旧类型的倦怠是完全阴郁的，全部来自脱离和疲惫的消极情绪。而现在，当尼基尔谈论微笑的疲惫时，它关乎人们一方面几乎重生。'我又在发布了。我在构建。我在用人工智能创造这些不可思议的东西。从来没有比这更激动人心的时刻，但没有关闭开关。'节奏绝对残酷。规则每天都在重写自己。这是一个非常无情的步伐。所以我们微笑着度过我们感受到的疲惫。我认为这比任何东西都更能抓住这种矛盾心理。

Yeah, I mentioned this earlier. The industry is definitely in a state of ambivalence. We try to capture all the emotions that people are feeling at work right now. And I am happy to report, as you can see here, that the top two emotions are positive emotions: curiosity and excitement. And that's wonderful. That is optimistic. I'm glad that's the case. People are sharing that they're excited about the technology, about the capabilities, about what they're able to achieve. They're feeling curious about what the future might bring and what else they could do as these models and systems continue to evolve. So that's wonderful. But as you go down this list, you can see that there's a very interesting mix of positive, negative, and neutral emotions. People are also feeling overwhelmed, conflicted, relieved in certain ways about what AI has taken from them in a good sense—what they've been able to offload to AI. And then people are feeling tired, burnt out, just working hard and hard as we said, uneasy, anxious, and then hopeful. So as you can see, there is a wide variety of emotions here. And it's really tough to figure out what exactly is going on. But one thing I definitely wanted to mention which Nikil Singal mentioned in an episode with you—I know he's a friend of the pod and such an incredible leader in product and in general in the tech community. He talked about smiling exhaustion. And I just love that term because I think it captures this ambivalence. The old type of burnout was just completely grim; it was all about negative emotions that come from disengagement and exhaustion. Whereas now, when Nikil talks about smiling exhaustion, it's about people almost feeling reborn on the one hand. 'I'm shipping again. I'm building. I'm creating these incredible things with AI. There's never been a more exciting time, but there's no off switch.' The tempo is absolutely brutal. The rules keep rewriting themselves every single day. It's a very relentless pace. And so we're smiling through that exhaustion that we're feeling. And I think that captures the ambivalence more than anything.

我认为回到你之前提出的一个核心观点也很好，那就是一半的人实际上感觉非常——他们工作很努力，可能有时精疲力竭，但他们也非常投入，全力以赴，感觉良好，对事情的发展充满活力。所以我认为在分享所有这些负面元素时，始终记住这一点很重要。实际上有一大群人真的很享受这个时期，并且做得非常好。我想强调的是，我们往往过于非黑即白地看待事物。我们看到的人要么是纯粹的炒作派，要么是末日论者或仇恨者。我们在这里看到的是，和生活中一样，事情没那么简单。在那层表象和戏剧性背后，我们每个人内心都既有炒作派也有末日论者，只是程度不同。我们并不只是其中一种。确实存在大量的矛盾心理，我只想让人们知道这没问题。你可以兴奋和好奇，同时也感到不知所措。你可以感到如释重负和疲惫。你可以感到怨恨，即使总体上你对技术持积极态度。这些情绪可以在我们内心共存。这非常自然。不要让这种非此即彼的叙事主导你，并让你认为自己的感受有什么问题。考虑到我们所处的时代，所有这些情绪都是非常可以理解的。

I think it's also good to kind of come back to one of the core points you made earlier, that half of people are actually feeling very—like they are working very hard, probably exhausted at times, but they're also just like really into it, going all in, feeling good, energized about where things are going. So I think it's important to always remember that as we share all these negative elements. There's actually a large group of people that are actually loving this time and doing super well. I think more than anything, what I would like to highlight here is that we tend to think of things way too often in black and white terms. We see people as either just full of hype or doomers or haters. What we're seeing here is that, as always in life, things aren't that simple. Behind that facade, behind the theatrics, we all have both the hype person within us and the doomer to a certain extent. The only difference between us is that we have different amounts of each. But we're not just one or the other. There really is a ton of ambivalence, and I just want people to know that it's okay. It's okay to be excited and curious, but also feel overwhelmed. It's okay to feel relieved and tired. It's okay to feel resentful, even if all in all you feel positive about the technology. Those emotions can coexist within us. It's very natural. Don't let this narrative that you're either one or the other dominate and convince you that anything's wrong with how you feel. All of these emotions are very understandable given the times we're in.

非常重要的一点。我很高兴你这么说。好的。下一个要点：我们看了你发现的这种分化，看哪些职能过得最好和最差。我们之前提到过，结果发现有几个职能现在整体上最不好过，感到最不快乐。我们来看看。

Such an important point. I love that you said that. Okay. So the next takeaway: we looked at this bifurcation that you found, looking at which functions are having the best time and worst time. We had a hint at this earlier, and it turns out there are a couple that are just overall having the worst time right now and feeling the least happy. Let's get into that.

是的，确实如此。我们去年也看到了这一点。我们看到设计师和研究人员是最消极的。具体来说：在 AI 身份转变方面，设计师和研究人员在感到不稳定或被削弱方面是最高的。在感到疲倦、不知所措或焦虑等情绪方面，研究人员和设计师在负面意义上领先。在担心工作被 AI 取代方面，研究人员和设计师又处于最高水平。最后，在是否愿意向朋友或同事推荐自己岗位的类 NPS 评分中，研究人员和设计师是最不愿意推荐进入他们岗位的。我们之前谈过这个。我不确定还有什么可补充的。这不一定意味着这个职能遇到了大麻烦，而是这个职能中的人现在的感受。我不客观，因为我属于研究和设计社区。如果允许的话，我只想告诉这个社区的人们：我真诚地相信，从来没有比现在更重要的时刻让我们的角色在我们构建的产品中体现出来。你和很多人谈过这些概念——品味、工艺、质量。我想到了卡里·莱恩的CEO，他精彩地谈论了质量和如何构建产品的重要性。我想到了凯蒂·迪尔，我们围绕品味、美感和价值进行了完整的对话。最近还有 Anthropic 负责 Claude 设计的珍妮·文，以及许多其他人，他们谈论品味、判断力和设计的重要性。所以我真诚地希望设计师和研究人员在对待这个行业的感受上能够反弹，因为行业需要他们。

Yeah, definitely. We saw this last year as well. We are seeing that designers and researchers are the most negative. To clarify: when it comes to AI identity shift, designers and researchers are the highest in feeling either destabilized or diminished. When it comes to emotions like feeling tired, overwhelmed, or anxious, researchers and designers lead the pack in a negative way. When it comes to worries about losing one's job to AI, again, researchers and designers are as high as one can be. And finally, when it comes to NPS-like scores of whether people would recommend their role to a friend or colleague, researchers and designers are the least likely to recommend entering their role at this point. We talked about this earlier. I don't know how much more there is to add. It's not that this function is in big trouble necessarily; it's how people in that function are feeling right now. I'm not objective because I'm part of the research community and the design community. If I may, I just want to tell people in this community that I truly and honestly believe there's never been a more important time for our roles to manifest in the products we build. You've talked about this with many people—concepts like taste, craft, quality. I'm thinking of people like the CEO of Kari Line who talked beautifully about the importance of quality and how you build products. I'm thinking of Katie Dill, who we had a whole conversation around taste and beauty and value. Recently, Jenny Wen, who leads design for Claude at Anthropic, and so many other people who talk about the importance of taste, judgment, and design. So I honestly hope that designers and researchers make a comeback when it comes to how they feel about this industry because the industry needs them.

行业需要我们。所以我希望明年能看到变化，这是对所有设计师和研究者的号召：投身其中，做我们该做的事，因为在这个时代它极其有价值。

The industry needs us. And so I hope we see a change next year and this is the call to all designers and researchers to get in there and do our thing because it's incredibly valuable at this era.

是的，我最近聊过几次关于设计的话题，尤其是为什么设计如今没有成为巨大的价值增量和差异化因素，而 AI 在这方面又如此糟糕。我们刚采访了 Codex 应用的负责人，谈到 AI 不擅长设计，而且你能明显看出某样东西是 AI 设计的。你可能会认为，看到这么多 AI 生成的垃圾内容，这应该是设计成为公司价值增量和差异化因素的时刻。所以我乐观地认为这会出现，因为人们会说“我厌倦了所有这些千篇一律的东西。我想真正做出伟大的东西。”是的。而且，如果我没记错的话，你在那次对话中提到，AI 做设计所涉及的一些问题也许是可解的，但有些甚至是不可解的，或者说肯定难得多。创造惊艳的新颖创意体验，仍然是这项技术不太能做到的事。所以，我们拭目以待，但我真的希望设计师和研究者社区明年能转变观念，改变对行业的看法。

Yeah, I've had a few conversations recently about design and in particular why design is not a huge value add and differentiator today, knowing AI is just so bad at it. We just had the head of the Codex app on, talking about how AI is not good at design, and you could clearly tell AI designed this thing. You would think this was the moment for design to become such a value add and differentiator for companies, seeing all this AI slop that's being produced. So I'm optimistic that'll emerge as people are like 'I'm so sick and tired of all these generic things. I want to actually build something great.' Yeah. And moreover, if I recall correctly, you in that conversation talked about how some of the issues around AI doing design are perhaps tractable problems, but some of them are even intractable, I would say, or definitely much harder to solve for. It's still the case that creating incredible novel creative experiences is not something that this technology is quite capable of. So, we'll see what happens, but I really do hope that the designer research community turn around and change their minds about the industry next year.

是啊。我真等不及到明年了。它会是什么样呢？但如果你看看“担心被 AI 抢走工作”这个类别，实际上有一个角色更担心失业。我相信那就是数据分析。我们的处境很相似，但这一点真的很有趣。数据分析师基本上是最担心失业的。

Yeah. Man, I can't wait to do next year already. What's it going to be? But if you actually look at the 'losing my job to AI' bucket, there's actually a role that is even more worried about losing their job. And I believe that is data analytics. Our shades are kind of very similar to keep the message clear, but that's really interesting. The data analysts basically are the most worried about losing their job.

我认为我们正在看到令人难以置信的能力涌现。

I think we're seeing incredible capabilities coming out.

有道理。

Makes sense.

是的，有了各种不同的模型来进行数据分析。我在研究领域也看到了这一点。我想说，我们在编程方面也看到了惊人的进步。所以我原本预计工程学在某些方面会更高，但实际上并没有。但再说一次，这并非关于 AI 在完成这些角色方面的能力到底有多强的客观事实，而是关于这些角色中的人的感受，两者之间并不存在一一对应的关系。

Yeah. With the different models out there to run data analysis. I'm seeing this in the research realm as well. I would suggest that we're also seeing incredible advancements in coding. So I was expecting engineering to be higher in certain places here, and it's not. But again, this isn't about the objective reality of how far AI has come in terms of its capabilities doing each of these roles. This is about how people are feeling in these roles, and there isn't a one-to-one correlation between those things.

说到这个，我们来聊聊谁是最幸福的人。谁做得很好？谁做得最好？

Speaking of that, let's talk about who the happiest people are. Who's doing great? Who's doing best?

那么，科技行业最幸福的人。这是去年和今年调查中没有改变的一点，仍然是创始人和在较小公司工作的人。而且我觉得有必要说明，关于创始人，正如你之前说的，虽然我不太了解，但做创始人是一项极具挑战性、包罗万象的工作。而且这里存在一定的选择偏差，因为这些人是目前正在运营的初创公司中担任创始人的角色，而不是那些不得不关闭公司的创始人，无论什么原因。所以我想明确这一点，说明我们关注的是谁。但没错，当我们观察创始人和公司规模时，你可以看到，无论是乐观情绪、倦怠感、裁员担忧，还是人们是否会推荐自己的工作，根据问题的不同，这些指标都在上升或下降。很明显，创始人在几乎所有指标上都排名最高。他们 71% 感到乐观。他们最享受自己的工作。他们的倦怠感最低，裁员担忧最低，对 AI 的兴奋度最高。与我们看到的其他效应相比，这是一个中等规模的影响。但非常显著。话虽如此，你知道，谈到创始人，即使拥有所有权和自主权也有其局限性。创始人仍然，你知道，很多创始人仍然处于中度或至少中度倦怠。47% 的创始人会这样，而且正如我们之前所说，即使是创始人现在也不太可能向其他人推荐做创始人，这非常有趣。我认为同样重要的是要注意到，确实存在这种，如你所说，所谓的“现在是创业的最好时机”的说法。人们可能看到这个，就会说“我得开家公司。这是最好的去处。”也许目前这个时刻人们对此感到最兴奋，然后随着泡沫（你知道，我不知道是不是泡沫），但随着事情开始变得更困难，可能会有转变。所以到目前为止，有意思的是我们连续两年看到创始人是最幸福的，但我不知道如果市场变化、如果某些事情发生，这种情况是否会改变。所以这并不是说你成为创始人就会幸福，但连续两年，所有最清晰的结论之一就是创始人似乎在各个维度上都是最幸福的，这确实很有趣。

So, the happiest people in tech. This is something that did not change between last year's survey and this year's, it's still founders and people who are working in smaller companies. And I do feel the need to say that when it comes to founders, to your point earlier, being not that I know but being a founder is an incredibly challenging all-encompassing job. And there is a certain selection bias here in the sense that these are people who are currently in the active role of a founder in a startup that is still running, rather than founders who had to shut down their startup, whatever it might be. So, I just want to make that clear around who we're looking at. But yes, when we look at founders and when we look at company size as well, you can see that whether it's optimism, whether it's burnout, layoff worry, or whether people would recommend their job, you're just seeing these increases or decreases depending on the question. It's very clear that founders are top of nearly every measure. They're 71% optimistic. They're enjoying their jobs the most. They have the lowest burnout, the lowest layoff worry, the most AI excitement. It's a medium-sized effect compared to other effects we saw. But very significant. And that said, you know, if we talk about founders, even having that ownership and even having that agency has its limits. Founders are still, you know, many founders are still moderately or at least moderately burnt out. 47% of founders that would be, and as we said earlier, even founders aren't very likely to recommend being a founder to other people right now, which is very interesting. I think it's also important to note, there's definitely this, as you said, this kind of meme of 'there's never been a better time to build.' People may see this and be like 'I got to start a company. It's the best place to be.' It may be this moment currently where people feeling most excited about it, and then as the bubble (you know, I don't know if it's a bubble) but as things start to get harder, there may be a shift away from that. So this so far interesting that we've seen two years in a row founders are the happiest, but I wonder if that changes if the market changes, if some, you know, that kind of thing. So this isn't saying you're going to be happy if you become a founder, but it is really interesting that two years in a row of all of the like the most clear one of the clearest takeaways is just founders seem to be happiest across every dimension.

是的。然后公司规模也是如此。同样，如果你在较大的公司工作，乐观情绪会下降。如果你在较大的公司工作，你会更容易倦怠。如果你在较大的公司工作，你更担心裁员。而且你不太可能推荐自己的职位。所以这一点也保持一致。如果我们只看倦怠感，那么你可以非常清楚地看到，在 1 到 10 人的小型初创公司和 5000 或 10000 人的企业公司之间，倦怠感显著上升。

Yeah. And then company size as well. Again, optimism goes down if you're working for a larger company. You get more burnt out if you're working for a larger company. You're more worried about layoffs if you're working for a larger company. And you're less likely to recommend your role if you're working for a larger company. So that also remained consistent. And if we look just at burnout specifically, then you can see very clearly here that burnout climbs in very significant ways in between working for a small 1 to 10 person startup and working for a 5,000 or 10,000 person enterprise company.

这太疯狂了。这线性关系太疯狂了。没有起伏。然后最后那两个，正如你在图表中指出的，它们在统计上……

It's so wild. It's wild how linear this is. There's no bump. And then those two at the end there, as you point out here in the chart, they're statistic...

在误差范围内，是的。

It's within margin of error, yeah.

这太疯狂了，就是一直往上升，没有一个最佳点然后降下来。然后如果你回到上一张图，完全一样，就是非常线性，随着公司规模增大，一切都变糟了。这太疯狂了。

It's just like wild here, just like only goes up, there's not like a sweet spot and then it comes down again. And then if you go back to the previous chart, exactly the same thing, it's just like very linear, everything goes up and gets worse as your company size grows. That's wild.

完全同意。这里我想强调一点：比如看倦怠感，即使是最低的也仍然相当高，对吧？所以，我会说人们在初创公司工作感觉没那么倦怠，更健康一些。但我认为这些倦怠和担忧的水平令人担忧。我现在担心科技行业的担忧水平。这不是一个好的氛围。你知道，你提到我们十年前在 Airbnb 认识的。我感觉那时的科技氛围非常不同。所以，我对我们在这里看到的数字有点担心。

Absolutely. I would say one thing to highlight here: if you look at burnout for example, even the lowest is still fairly high, right? So, I would say people are feeling somewhat less burnt out, somewhat healthier working for a startup. But I would view these levels of burnout, of worry as worrisome. I'm worried about the level of worry right now in tech. It is not a good vibe. You know, you mentioned how we met a decade ago at Airbnb. I do feel like the vibe was very different then in tech. So, I am a bit concerned about the numbers that we're seeing here.

但从相对的角度来看，也许人们应该考虑转行，自己创业，或者去一家小公司工作。

But yes, from a relative sense, from a relative point of view, perhaps one should consider doing a shift and starting your own thing or working for a smaller company.

对，没错。这会是其中一个要点。如果我们针对非科技行业也做一次这样的调查，那会很棒。我很好奇，就像你觉得科技行业的人感到恐惧和担忧一样，我很想知道这与其他人群，比如蓝领工人或其他职能的人相比会怎样。不知道我们有没有观众来做这个，但会很有趣。我的意思是，我想我的 HVAC 技师现在对自己的职业生涯感觉很好，佛罗里达天气炎热，每个人都需要空调，这短期内不会改变。

Yeah, exactly. That'll be one of the takeaways. You know what would be awesome is if we do one of these for non-tech. I'm really curious just like you think people are scared and worried in tech. I'm so curious how that would compare to you know like say the blue-collar folks or other functions like I don't know if we have the audience to do that but that'd be really interesting. I mean I think my HVAC technician is feeling pretty great about his career right now burning hot in Florida. Everyone needs air conditioning. That's not going to change anytime soon.

要创业，我们应该那样做。开个拍摄公司。哦，天哪。所以，再次进行这个调查，我喜欢的一点是我们开始发现一些始终成立的事情。下一个要点是另一个很好的例子，去年我们也看到了，是关于管理者的。我们来聊聊这个。

To start a company, we should do that. Start a filming business. Oh, man. So, what I love about this doing the survey again is we're starting to find things that are consistently true. And the next takeaway is another really good example that we saw last year, too, around managers. Let's get into that.

是的。我的意思是，也许人们已经意识到了。管理者非常重要。你的管理者是谁可能比你角色的其他大多数特征都重要。我们在去年和今年都明确发现了这一点。管理者效能。所以我们基本询问了人们：你的管理者有多有效？你会如何评价你的管理者？你可以看到，你的管理者越有效，你感到的倦怠就越少，你对工作的享受就越多。这是一个非常非常大的影响。例如，如果你有一个极其有效的管理者，你的工作享受度会提高约 65%，倦怠感会显著降低。问题在于供应。样本中只有大约 25% 的人将他们的管理者评为高度有效，而 36% 的人将他们的管理者评为无效，这比去年变化很小。所以我们看到管理者评价不高，同时我们也看到当管理者有效时——显然这还不够频繁——对人们的工作享受度、倦怠感等方面的影响是惊人的。

Yeah. So, I mean, perhaps people are aware of this. Managers matter a ton. Who your manager is probably matters more than most other characteristics of your role. And we found this very explicitly last year and this year again. Manager effectiveness. So we basically asked people how effective is your manager? How would you rate your manager? And what you can see here is that the more effective your manager is, the less burnt out you feel and the more you enjoy your job. And this is a massive, massive effect that we're seeing. So if you have an extremely effective manager, for example, you're reporting around 65% higher job enjoyment and dramatically lower burnout. The problem is the supply. Only about 25% of the sample rate their manager as highly effective, and 36% of the sample rated their managers as ineffective, which by the way is a very small change from last year. So we're seeing managers be rated not so well, and at the same time we're seeing that when managers are effective, which is clearly not often enough, the impact that has on people's enjoyment, burnout, and other aspects is incredible.

这太疯狂了。我觉得我们为世界增添了新的洞见。我从未见过管理者影响如此之大。我们总是听到轶事，总是听到人们离开的不是工作，而是他们的管理者，但这影响之大太惊人了。很明显，其中一个要点可能是：如果你过得不好，就找一个更好的管理者，但正如你所说，说起来容易做起来难。

That's wild. I like, I think we're adding new insight into the world here just finding this. I've never seen this before just how impactful a manager is. We always hear anecdotes, we always hear like, you know, people only leave, they don't leave jobs, they leave their manager, but this is wild just how much that impacts you. And clearly one of the takeaways might be go, if you're having a bad time, find a better manager, as you said, easier said than done.

是的，但在继续之前，我想指出几点。首先，我们处于大扁平化时代。我们处于创始人模式时代。人们现在比以往任何时候都有更多的直接下属。我们试图让组织尽可能扁平，消除层级。我对此感到担忧。我认为，扁平化和去层级化显然有好的论据。但我很好奇，考虑到管理者对你的幸福感的重要性，这会走向何方。其次，我们之前谈到了过度工作，以及人工智能对我们的挤压。谁是最能管理这种挤压的人？是你的管理者，对吧？是你的管理者保护你。是你的管理者在很大程度上决定了你可能会过度工作还是不会。所以，是的，这比以往任何时候都重要。我肯定担心我们看到的一些负面现象是我们在科技行业对管理者采取的做法以及我们构建组织的方式所导致的。

Yeah, but there are a couple of things here I want to note before we move on. First of all, we are in the era of the great flattening. We're in the era of founder mode. People have more direct reports now than ever before. We're trying to keep things as flat as possible and remove hierarchy. I'm concerned about this. I think, obviously there are good arguments for flatness and lack of hierarchy. But I am curious to see where this goes given the importance of who your manager is on your well-being. And then the second thing is we talked earlier about being overworked, about this squeeze that AI has on us. Who's the person more than anyone else who kind of manages that squeeze? It's your manager, right? It's your manager who protects you. It's your manager who in many ways almost dictates how much you may be overworked or not. And so yeah, this matters more than ever before. And I'm definitely concerned that some of the negative phenomena we're seeing are a function of what we're doing to managers in tech and how we're building out our organizations.

好观点。无论是现在还是下次，只看管理者的这些指标——他们有多倦怠，有多不快乐和乐观——会很有趣。在原文中有几点我想强调。一个是核心要点：要提高公司留任率，最大的杠杆就是提升你的管理者，基本上就是把人们和更好的管理者联系起来。太有趣了，这是你可以做的事情，显然说起来容易做起来难，但这是你可以改变的最大杠杆。然后你提到的另一点是，评分最低的管理者集中在数据分析和设计领域——糟糕的设计。是的。

Such an interesting point. Whether we do it now or next time, just looking at these metrics for managers — like how much more burned out are they, how much less happy and optimistic are they — would be really interesting. There's a couple notes here in the actual post that I want to highlight. One is just core takeaway: the biggest lever you have to increase retention in your company is to improve your managers, put people on, connect people with better managers basically. So interesting, that's like a thing you can do, obviously easier said than done, but that's the biggest lever of things you can change. And then the other thing you noted is the worst rated managers cluster in data analytics and design — poor design. Yes.

所以，我不确定对此有明确的解释。我认为一个可能的解释是，管理者也只是普通人，所以设计管理者、数据和分析管理者——他们在设计和分析领域——根据我们看到的，他们显然在受苦，我认为很难将你在科技行业的感觉与作为管理者的工作分开。很难不把你的一些负面情绪传递给你的团队和你一起工作的人。所以我对设计管理者、研究管理者、数据和分析管理者以及科技行业中现在处境艰难、感到没有活力的其他管理者深表同情。不幸的是，其中一些情绪被传递给了他们的直接下属。

So, and I'm not sure there's a clear explanation for that. I think one possible explanation is that again, managers are just people too, and so design managers and data and analytic managers — they are in design and in analytics — they are suffering clearly based on what we saw, and I think it's hard to separate how you feel in tech from your job as a manager. It's hard not to put some of your negative energy onto your team and the people you work with. And so I have a lot of empathy for design managers, research managers, data and analytics managers, and other managers in tech who are having a hard time right now and they're not feeling energized. And unfortunately, some of that is being pushed onto their direct reports.

另外，我非常欣赏在我工作过的一些公司，我有机会接受管理者培训，我觉得这在组织中仍然非常罕见。如果你在听这个，你是组织中的领导者，你是公司的高管，请在你的管理者身上投入更多。如果你现在正在找工作，仔细考虑你的管理者会是谁，因为可能没有什么比那个人对你的幸福感影响更大。而且，考虑到公司现在面临的困难，挖角和向最优秀的人抛出橄榄枝的程度——想象一下，找到一个优秀的管理者，培训他们成为出色的管理者，然后他们被那些拥有无限资金的实验室挖走，这是多么糟糕。所以，这更加困难。

And then I very much appreciate in some of the companies I've worked for having the opportunity to go through manager training, which is something that's still all too rare I feel within organizations. If you're listening to this and you're a leader in an organization, if you're a suite at a company, please invest more in your managers. And if you're looking for a job right now, consider carefully who your manager might be, because probably nothing will have more impact on your well-being than who that person ends up being. And to build on how difficult things are for companies right now, the level of poaching and offers thrown out at the best people — just imagine how sucky it is to find a great manager, train people to become awesome managers, and then they get, you know, only to lose them to the labs, people with infinite money. So, it's just extra hard.

这正好引出了我们的最后一个要点，它很好地总结了人们现在的感受。

Which is a good segue to our final takeaway, which is a really good summary of just what people are feeling right now.

是的，这是有史以来最疯狂的。我们让人们描述科技行业的现状。我们收到了数千份回复。这些基本上是开放式回答，然后我们就把这些描述整理成了这个词云。我仍然喜欢词云。一些研究人员有点反词云。我喜欢它，我不会为词云道歉。

Yeah, it is the wildest it's ever been. We asked people to describe the state of the tech industry right now. We got thousands of responses. These were essentially open-ended responses, and we just sort of clustered those descriptions into this word cloud. I still love word clouds. Some researchers are sort of anti-word cloud. I love it, I'm not gonna apologize for the word cloud.

不，这太棒了。

No, this is amazing.

它如此清晰。看看这个。看看它。这正是它给人的感觉。

It's like such a clear. Look at this. Just look at this. This is exactly what it feels like.

是的。我们看到变化。

Yeah. We're seeing change.

我们正在目睹混乱、速度、兴奋、变动、炒作、缺乏稳定、潜在的泡沫，但也有疯狂的机遇。一切都在演变，一切都不稳定。这伴随着代价，既更好又更糟，规模巨大且令人困惑。所有这些都揉合在一起，形成了一个比以往任何时候都更加混乱的行业。

We're seeing chaos. We're seeing speed. We're seeing excitement, flux, hype, a lack of stability, a potential bubble, but also crazy opportunities. Everything's evolving. Everything's unstable. It comes with costs. It's better. It's worse. It's huge. It's confusing. All smooshed together into a more chaotic industry than it's ever been.

是的，哥们。我觉得你之前引用过一句话——这是未来最正常的时候了。

Yeah, man. And I think you used this quote earlier that this is the most normal it's ever going to be.

我的意思是，我不知道。预言是给傻瓜的，所以我不打算当预言家。但没错，我不认为情况会比现在更“正常”了。所以我们等着瞧吧。

I mean, I don't know. The prophecy was given to the fool, so I'm not going to try to be a prophet. But yes, I doubt it's going to get more normal than this. So we'll wait and see.

总体来看，我们再次看到这种分化，37% 的词是正面的，37% 是负面的，剩下 26% 是中性的——基本上是均分。我们都在看同一件事，但一半人觉得激动人心，另一半人觉得恐惧。我看到这些数据时相当震惊，我们居然如此势均力敌。

When we look at this overall, it's crazy how we see again this bifurcation that 37% of the words used were positive, 37% negative, 26% neutral. Basically an even split. We're all seeing the same thing, but half find it thrilling, the other half terrifying. I was rather taken aback when I saw these data. It's pretty wild how equally divided we are.

我对棒球一窍不通，也许是板球？但我们有一句引用。你懂棒球吗？呃……

I don't understand anything about baseball or maybe it's cricket, but we got this quote. Do you understand baseball? Does...

那是棒球。我觉得……我不知道有多少局，但肯定是棒球。至少放在棒球里说得通。

That's baseball. I think it's... I don't know how many innings, but it's definitely baseball. It works for baseball at least.

对。基本上就是说继续尝试，不断出手——射门。用了好多比喻。

Yeah. Basically, it's just saying keep trying. Just keep taking shots. Shots on goal. A lot of metaphors.

是啊，好句子太多了。我还看到一个不错的——‘科技是狂躁的。一半人脱离现实，盲目跟风，陷入过度炒作；另一半人被前半部分人搞得精疲力竭。’这是一位资深产品经理说的。很有意思。

Yeah. So many good quotes. Another one I see here which was a good one. Tech is manic. Half out of touch, clinging to the bandwagon, porbing into the overhype. The other half are exhausted by the first half. That came from a senior PM. Yeah, fascinating stuff.

是啊。如果拉远来看，我们正在亲历历史。变化的规模是前所未有的。人们总用工业革命来比喻，这很准确。这也是最有趣的地方——我们活在一个多么有意思的时代。埃隆·马斯克有一个很有意思的描述：我们肯定活在模拟中，因为我们现在活着，而人类即将开始在太空建造数据中心，AI 也会变得和人脑一样聪明。你恰好活在这个时刻的概率有多大？也许某个更高智慧正在模拟历史上最有趣的时期。我不知道这算不算好的说辞，但……

Yeah. If we zoom out, we're living through history right now. The amount of change is unprecedented. The industrial revolution is always the metaphor people use, which is accurate. That's the interesting part. What an interesting time to be living through. Elon had this really interesting way of describing it. Like we're definitely living in a simulation if we're alive right now when we're about to start building data centers in space and AI is going to be as smart as human brains. What are the chances you are alive at that moment? Maybe some higher intelligence is simulating the most interesting time in history. I don't know if that's a good rap, but...

听着，我非常尊重埃隆。像他这样的人选择关注宇宙以及支配宇宙的法则。而我学术背景是心理学，因为我始终关注的是人。如果要说一个总结性的想法，那就是：拥有最先进的 AI 和最好的模型并不能决定你的组织能否成功。我们必须记住，所有这些的背后都是人。我们人类正在经历人生中最大规模的转变和变化。人们同时感到兴奋、疲惫、充满希望和恐惧。我们都在参与塑造这个未来，我们希望未来仍然有我们的一席之地。我一直牢记这一点。是人驱动着这些创新，我的关注点永远是人。我希望正在观看的你，照顾好自己，去接触自然，花点时间思考你希望在职业生涯中得到什么，并记住：感受到所有情绪是正常的，做任何对你有用的事来度过这个疯狂的时期。

Listen, I have a lot of respect for Elon. People like Elon have chosen to focus on the universe and the laws that govern the universe. I became a psychologist by academic training because my focus has always been on people. If I had to share a closing thought, I would say that having the most advanced AI and access to the best models won't determine whether your organization succeeds. We have to remember that underlying all of this are people. People are going through the most massive shift and changes we ever have in our lives. People are feeling excited and exhausted and hopeful and scared often all at once. We're all taking part in crafting this future that we hope still has a place for us. And I keep that in mind all the time. It's people driving these innovations. My focus will always be on the people. I hope that if you're watching, you take care of yourself, touch grass, take a moment to reflect on what you want for yourself in your career, and remember that it's fine to feel all the emotions and you should just do whatever works for you to get through this wild period.

那么，在此基础上，你花了很多时间思考结果以及人们可以用这些数据做什么——因为只报告‘人们的感觉是什么’是一回事，但人们应该怎么做？所以报告末尾有一个非常重要的部分，我们应该花点时间聊聊：我们从这里往哪去？这些数据告诉我们，我们应该做什么才能让自己基本上进入一个更快乐的状态？

So, kind of building on that, you spend a lot of time thinking through the results and what people can actually do with this data because it's one thing to just report. Here's what people are feeling. Okay, cool. What should people do? So there's a really important section at the end of the report that we should spend a little time on, which is where do we go from here? What does this tell us we should be doing to move ourselves basically into a happier place?

首先，如果你是一名员工，尤其是公司的个人贡献者，我们看到那些感到被赋能和充满活力的人报告说，他们实际上深入钻研了特定的任务和具体的工作，而不是试图成为什么都做的通才。我认为那些试图或过度倾向做通才的人最终会严重倦怠，对吧？所以我想稍微提醒人们，不要被那种‘你现在必须成为通才，什么都做，完全忽略你角色的核心’的叙述所影响。我认为这是个坏主意，而且根据人们的报告，这样做不会让你感觉良好，对吧？我也希望大家警惕那种‘干同样多的活却不涨薪’的压榨。我们值得更好的。我们在文章里附了一个倦怠测试。去做一下，看看你在倦怠量表上的位置。然后反思你的处境，和你的经理谈谈，重新审视你的工作范围，与经理重新校准和调整工作，确保你没有因为被压榨而失去对工作的积极态度和成功的机会。

So starting with if you're an employee, especially if you're an individual contributor working at a company, one thing we saw people who feel amplified and energized reporting is that they actually went deep on specific tasks and specific jobs to be done rather than trying to be the generalist who does everything. I think it's the people who try to be or lean too much into being a generalist who end up getting severely burnt out, right? And so I just want to caution people a little bit away from the narratives that you need to be a generalist at this point and just do all of the things and completely ignore the core parts of your role. I think that's a bad idea and based on what people are reporting, it's not going to end up with you feeling good, right? I also would love for people to watch out for this squeeze of being overworked for the same pay. We deserve better. We've linked in the article to a burnout test. Take the test. See where you're at on the burnout scale. And then reflect on where you are. Talk to your manager. Scope out your work again. Recalibrate, realign with your manager on your work and make sure that you're not being squeezed out of being positive about your role and being successful in your role.

看到自己被挤压，就去找你的经理谈谈，比如‘嘿，我的职责范围扩大了，但薪酬没变’，诸如此类的事情。

Watch yourself being squeezed and talk to your manager about, 'Hey, my scope's increased, nothing's changed comp-wise,' that kind of thing.

完全同意。再说说经理。第三点就是，当你对工作的感受如何时，你的经理显然比其他任何因素都重要。保护这段关系。投资这段关系。与你的经理建立良好的沟通渠道。学会向上管理。对这段关系的投入会极大地改善你的感受。除此之外，首先，如果你想尝试在一家小公司工作或创办自己的公司，这显然有一些优势，所以值得考虑。其次，如果你处于职业生涯早期，觉得梯子上的横档在慢慢消失，爬梯子越来越难，我坚信导师制及其价值。强大的导师制仍然是非常有效的东西。寻找那些愿意投资于你发展的团队、经理和人。这非常有价值，尤其是在这个时代。以上就是给员工的建议。如果你在领导一个团队或公司，那么同样，就像我们之前提到的，投资于你的经理。这可能是你花得最值的钱。让我感到难过的是，在我们的样本中，可能整个科技行业，只有四分之一的员工认为他们的经理非常高效。对我来说，这是一个重大的危险信号。这是科技行业的一个大问题。所以，如果你想改善职业倦怠，提升工作乐趣，或者在有 AI 实验室开出疯狂工作邀约的情况下提高员工留存率，你必须投资于你的经理。另外，管理好那种被挤压感。人们感觉到 AI 正在以不可持续的方式提高标准。所以你必须设定合理的期望和生产力水平。不要让梯子的最底层腐烂。确保你为初级员工做了必要的事，帮助他们进步，因为这些早期职业人士可能也是你能找到的最 AI 原生的一群人，对吧？他们在使用这些技术时感到非常自然，某种程度上比那些太习惯旧范式的人更自然。然后，自私地说，我希望领导者们能多关注设计和研究等岗位，这些岗位的人感受比其他岗位更消极。请记住，这项 AI 技术正在提升一些人，同时也在动摇另一些人。你真的需要关注这一点。我们显然并没有以同样的方式体验这项技术。

Absolutely. And then speak of managers. Again, the third point is that your manager clearly matters more than pretty much anything else when it comes to how you feel about work. Protect that relationship. Invest in that relationship. Build up good communication lines with your manager. Learn to manage up. That investment in that relationship will pay off greatly in terms of how you feel. And then beyond that, first of all, if you want to try out working for a smaller company or starting your own company, clearly there are some advantages to that, so it might be worth considering. And then if you're earlier in your career and you feel like the rungs of the ladder are slowly disappearing and it's becoming harder to climb that ladder, I'm a huge believer in mentorship and the value of mentorship. Strong mentorship is still an incredibly effective thing. Seek the teams, seek the managers, seek the people who are willing to invest in developing you. It's incredibly valuable, especially in this era. So that's what we have for employees. And then if you're leading a team, if you're leading a company, then again, as we mentioned before, invest in your managers. It's probably some of the best money you'll ever spend. It's sad to me that only a quarter of our sample and perhaps tech workers in general rate their manager as highly effective. That to me is a major red flag. It's a major issue in tech. And so if you want to improve burnout, if you want to elevate enjoyment, if you want to improve retention with these crazy job offers flying around from AI labs, you have to invest in your managers. And then otherwise manage that squeeze. People are feeling how AI is raising bars in ways that aren't sustainable. So you have to figure out the right level of expectations and the right level of productivity. Don't let that bottom rung of the ladder rot. Make sure that you're doing what you need to for entry-level people to advance because those early career people are also probably some of the most AI-native people you can find, right? They find it very natural to use these technologies in some ways more so than people who have been too used to previous paradigms. So then selfishly I hope that leaders pay a little bit more attention to design and research and other roles who are feeling more negative than other roles. And keep in mind that this technology AI is lifting some people and destabilizing others. And you really have to pay attention to that. We are clearly not experiencing this technology in the same way.

很棒的总结。我想再强调一下你提到的那个职业倦怠调查。我们会在节目笔记中放上链接。实际上，我觉得人们可能会认为这听起来很傻，不明白为什么要这么做。我自己也经历过一些倦怠期，当时并没有意识到。知道自己‘哇，我现在的感觉不正常’，并且了解自己正处于极度倦怠的状态，这非常有帮助。然后你就可以决定如何利用这些信息。通常就是找教练谈谈、找经理聊聊、如果可能的话请假休息几天。但仅仅是意识到这一点就已经很有力量了。你根据真正的科学研究制作了一个很棒的测验，我们也会附上链接。

Amazing takeaways. I want to double down on that burnout survey that you mentioned. We're going to link to it in the show notes. But I actually think people might think it sounds dumb and wonder why they would do it. I've definitely gone through periods of burnout and wasn't aware that it was happening. It's so helpful to realize, 'Oh wow, this is not normal what I'm feeling right now,' and knowing that you're extremely burned out right now, you can then decide what to do with that information. Often it's talk to a coach, talk to your manager, take some time off if you can. But just knowing that is actually really powerful. And you made this really great quiz based on actual science and research that we'll link to.

100%。

100%.

太棒了。那么，还有什么我们没谈到的话题吗？还有什么想对大家说的吗？我们覆盖了很多内容，所以我不知道还有没有遗漏的。我们显然会引导他们去看报告，以便深入了解。我们还会根据这次对话和评论区的内容做一期后续节目，因为信息量很大，有些吓人的东西，也有些乐观的内容。我们不可能对所有问题都有答案，但打算做一期后续，就说说出现了哪些问题，看看能否找到答案。除此之外，你还想分享什么吗？

Awesome. Now, is there anything else that we haven't talked about? Anything else you want to leave folks with? We've covered a lot, so I don't know if there's anything left. We'll obviously link them to the report where they can go deeper. We're also going to do a follow-up based on what comes out of this conversation, what we see in the comments, because this is a lot of information and a lot of scary stuff, some optimistic stuff. We can't have answers to everything, but we're planning to do a follow-up of just here's what came up. Let's see if we can find any answers. But other than that, is there anything else that you want to share?

我想提一个有趣的现象。我们开始看到这种“AI 负罪感”，尤其是在职业生涯早期的人群中。早期职业人士觉得使用这项技术有点像作弊，而这种负罪感会随资历增长而减弱。特别是在产品营销、数据和数据分析岗位的人中，这种负罪感最强，这些岗位之前在其他地方也出现过。这类似于众所周知的冒名顶替现象，对吧？就像‘我不够好’。有能力的人觉得他们的成功不是自己的，而是别人的。只不过这次我们把这种情绪归因于 AI，一种技术，而不是其他人。我想对那些可能感到负罪感的人说：AI 是一项不可思议的技术。利用它。学会如何利用它。我不认为它会消失。今天是它最糟糕的时候，它只会变得更好。所以没有理由为利用它而感到内疚。相反，我觉得我们所有人其实都在一直使用它。

There's one interesting phenomenon that I wanted to mention. We're starting to see this AI guilt, and in particular amongst people who are early in their career. Early career people feel like leveraging the technology is a little bit like cheating in a sense, and that guilt declines with seniority. In particular, we're seeing people in product marketing and data and analytics, which showed up previously in a couple of places, feeling the most guilt. This is related to the well-known and well-established impostor phenomenon, right? Like, 'I'm not good enough.' Competent people feeling like their success isn't really theirs, it's someone else's. Except this time we're putting that on AI, on a technology, rather than other people. I would say to all of you who might be feeling that guilt: AI is an incredible technology. Leverage it. Learn how to leverage it. I doubt it's going away. It's the worst it's ever going to be today. It's only getting better. So there's no reason to feel guilty about leveraging it. On the contrary. I think inevitably we all do it all the time.

最后，我只想感谢你。你在这里所做的工作，以及我们一起在多次调查中所做的工作，真是太了不起了。就像你帮我做的一个副业。我不知道是不是，但你的调查可能是这方面规模最大的之一，甚至可能是最大的。你分析数据，写报告，写得如此优美。我认为这是一份非常独特和特别的报告，我感谢你与我一起完成。我对这一切的发展方向，以及我们为大家所做的事情，感到非常高兴。

Well, to close note, I just want to appreciate you. It's incredible the work that you've done here and the work that we've done together over the many surveys. It's like a side thing you do with me. Running, I don't know, one of the biggest surveys out there around this stuff, maybe the biggest, analyzing it, writing it so beautifully. I think this is a really unique and special report and I appreciate you for doing this with me. I'm really happy about where this all goes and just what we're doing for folks.

非常感谢。

Thank you so much.

那么，Noam，如果听众想联系你或提出后续问题，他们在网上哪里可以找到你？另外，听众怎样才能帮到你？

Well, with that, Noam, where can people find you online if they want to reach out, maybe follow-up questions, and how can listeners be useful to you?

找到我的最佳途径是 LinkedIn。我很乐意与任何想在 LinkedIn 上连接的人，或者在 Lenny 的 Slack 社区里连接。我经常在那里活动，总是很高兴与社区里的人交谈。所以请在 LinkedIn 或 Slack 上找我。那是最好的方式。

The best places to find me are on LinkedIn. I'd love to connect with anyone who wants to connect on LinkedIn or within Lenny's community on Slack. I hang out there and always happy to talk to people within the community. So please catch me on LinkedIn or on Slack. That would be best.

听众怎样才能帮到你？

How can listeners be useful to you?

如果你在看这个视频，我想表达的是，希望这项研究对你有所帮助，更重要的是，希望你考虑参与我们未来的研究项目。我很高兴我们能做这些事情，Lenny。

If you're watching this, what I would like to convey is that I hope this research has been helpful to you, and more than anything, I hope that you consider participating in future research projects of ours. I'm really glad that we get to do these things, Lenny.

我想给所有正在观看的人一个机会，去了解更多科技领域的动态，如何更好地完成工作，以及如何对工作感觉更好，还有介于两者之间的一切。我们计划继续开展社区快速投票和深入的长期调查、访谈等各种活动。所以，如果你收到关于研究项目的消息、邮件或 Slack 消息，请参与进来。我们很想听听你的声音，了解你的观点，然后与社区分享这些反馈。希望这能让我们所有人都更擅长自己的工作，也对工作感觉更好。因为我确实希望，尽管其中很多内容有点棘手，甚至可能负面，但我本人 Lenny 是一个永远的乐观主义者，一个技术乐观主义者。我相信这是朝着好的方向发展的，我想确保我们准确地捕捉到这一点。所以，是的，请参与。我们很期待在我们的下一个研究项目中看到你。

And I want to give all of you watching the opportunity to learn more about what's going on in tech, how you can be better at your job, you know, how you can feel better about your job and all things in between. We plan to continue conducting both quick polls of the community and in-depth longer form surveys, interviews, all sorts of things. And so if you get a message, an email, a Slack about a research project, please participate. Would love to hear your voices, hear your perspectives, and then share that back with the community. And hopefully it makes us all better at our jobs and also feel better about our jobs because I do hope that even though much of this was a little bit tough and perhaps negative, I too Lenny am an eternal optimist. I'm a techno optimist. I believe this is going in good directions and I want to make sure we capture that accurately. So yeah, please participate. We'd love to see you in our next research project.

非常好。

Excellent.

那么，Noam，非常感谢你来到这里。非常感谢。谢谢你的收听。如果你觉得这期节目有价值，可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或你喜欢的播客应用上订阅。另外，请考虑给我们打分或留下评论，这真的能帮助其他听众找到这个播客。你可以在 lennispodcast.com 找到所有往期节目或了解更多信息。下期节目再见。

And with that, Noam, thank you so much for being here. Thanks a bunch. Thank you so much for listening. If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast. You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennispodcast.com. See you in the next episode.