从 Instagram 到 AI：Mike Krieger 谈单人创业

在 AI 时代，任何人都能成为亿万富翁企业家，独自创办一家公司。你觉得现在可能吗？

In the AI age, anyone can become a hundred million dollar entrepreneur, build a company solo. Do you think it is possible now?

我认为非常可能。就拿我在 Instagram 的经历来说，最初很多工作只有我和凯文两个人做，我们两个人就能完成很多事。当只有一两个人专注做某件事时，会有一种专注力和能量。我觉得理想状态其实是两个人，因为在经历起起落落时有个伙伴很有帮助。但我学到的是，随着公司成长，每增加一个团队成员，就多一个人带来自己的想法和能量，这很棒。但如果你需要调整公司方向，你也需要让这个人跟上。所以现在让我很兴奋的是，一两个人或三个人的团队可以自我扩展，比以前能做更多事，可能还更快，并且保持那种我所说的“概念完整性”。就像你把公司所有重要的东西都装在自己脑子里，或者两个人脑子里，一起协作，而不是试图驾驭一艘大船。

I think it's very possible. Just even watching the journey I went on with Instagram where we did a lot of the initial work with just me and Kevin and we were able to do a lot with just the two of us. There's a focus and an energy when you have just one or two people working on something. I think the ideal is actually two because it's helpful having a partner when going through the ups and downs. But what I've learned is as you grow, every person you add to the team is another person that can bring their own ideas and bring their energy, which is great. But it's also another person that you need to get on board if you need to shift where the company is going. So what I think is very exciting now is that one, two, three person team can scale themselves up, do a lot more than they would have been able to do before, maybe do it faster, and preserve that kind of conceptual integrity. Like you have all of what matters about that company in your head or in two heads basically working together versus trying to steer a huge ship.

你觉得如今创办一家大公司，懂技术是不是至关重要？还是说有了现有工具，技术就不那么必要了？

Do you think being technical is crucial to building a large company these days or it is unnecessary with all the existing tools?

我觉得随着 Claude Code 和线上产品这类东西越来越多，你至少能做出一个想法的版本，看看里面有没有东西。因为这是我在移动应用刚兴起时看到的最大问题。我经常听到人们说：“迈克，我有一个很好的移动应用想法。你认识移动工程师吗？或者我怎么把它做出来？”而想法往往就在这个阶段夭折了。有些想法可能本来就行不通，但有些可能真的能创造出一些新颖的东西。会有人说：“哦，我有一个关于社交应用、约会应用或游戏的新颖想法。”但很多这样的想法就在那个阶段消亡了。所以我觉得令人兴奋的是，即使这些工具还不能让你从最初的 10 个用户扩展到 100 万个用户，至少在系统扩展方面，它们能让你接触到那最初的 10 个人。让你做出原型甚至初始版本。即使是非技术人员，这也非常可能。我们在 Anthropic 内部就看到，一些非工程师，比如市场部、公关部的人，他们脑子里一直有个想法，周末会和 Claude 聊天，用 Claude Code 开发，然后在公司内部分享说：“看，我做出了这个，而且我完全不会编程。”

I think with increasing things like Claude Code and products online, you're getting to the point where you're able to at least get to a version of your idea where you can see if there's something there. Because that's the biggest thing that I've seen. In the age of mobile apps first emerging, I would hear from people all the time and they'd be like, "Mike, I have a great idea for a mobile app. Do you know any mobile engineers or how do I get it built?" And that was often where the idea would die. Some of those ideas maybe wouldn't have worked out, but some of them might actually have created something really novel. There would be people that said, "Oh, I have a novel idea for a social app or a dating app or a game." And so many of those ideas just kind of died at that stage. So what I think is exciting is even if the tools aren't there to get you from your first 10 users to your first million users in terms of the system scaling up, they'll at least get you in front of those first 10 people. Get you to the prototype or even that initial version. And that seems very possible even for people who aren't technical. We see that inside Anthropic where some of our non-engineers, people in marketing, people in communications who have had an idea in the back of their heads for a while will sit and talk to Claude and work with Claude Code on the weekends and then share it internally like, "Look what I built and I don't code at all."

太酷了。那你的路线图是什么？先有个想法，做出 MVP，然后分享给 10 到 20 个人。你有过不得不关闭公司的经历，对吧？能说说那是什么产品吗？

That's super cool. So what would be your roadmap? So come up with an idea, build an MVP, share it with like 10, 20 people. You had experience where you had to shut down the company, right? Can you tell what the product was?

那是我们的第二家公司。我和 Instagram 的联合创始人一起创办了第二家公司，叫 Artifact。我对这个产品本身非常自豪。它是一个由 AI 驱动的新闻推荐产品。我们会了解你的兴趣，然后给你一个你可能感兴趣的文章和故事的信息流。在非常精细的层面上，人们可能不仅对平面设计感兴趣，还对包豪斯平面设计或日本建筑感兴趣，真正理解人们更深层次感兴趣的东西。但这款产品没有达到足够的产品市场契合度和增长速度，不足以让我们继续投入。所以，从创造东西、迭代、围绕它建立团队，到后来意识到继续前进才是正确选择，这个过程真的很有挑战性。

It was our second company. I started a second company with the same co-founder as Instagram and it was called Artifact. The product itself I'm super proud of. It was an AI-powered news recommendation product. So we would learn your interests and then we would give you a feed of different articles and stories that you might be interested in. At a really nuanced level, people might be interested not just in graphic design but, you know, Bauhaus graphic design or Japanese architecture, really understanding the kinds of things that people were more deeply interested in. But the product didn't hit enough of a product-market fit and an acceleration that made it make sense to continue to invest in it. So that process of having created something and iterated on it and built a team around it but then also coming to the realization that the right thing was to move on from it was really challenging.

而且压力很大，对吧？那是在 Instagram 之后不久。

And the pressure was on, right? It was right after Instagram.

是的，而且在某些方面，那真的是一种阻碍。

It was, and in some ways that was really a hindrance.

你什么时候会对你展示给大约 20 个人的想法做出决定？什么时候你会说，就是它了，还是继续推进？

When do you make this decision about an idea that you showed to maybe like 20 people? When do you say like, hey, this is it or do I keep pushing?

对我来说，很大程度上是在那个阶段，当你做出改变，展示给别人，他们给你反馈，甚至可能已经有一些人在使用它时，你会感觉到，随着你不断改变，或者当你听取反馈并做出调整时，是否有一种雪球效应，能量在不断增加？我们在早期的 Instagram 上就明显看到了这一点。我们最初只有大约 20 到 30 人在一个私密测试版中使用它，而且它非常像一个周末产品，对吧？因为你外出时，尤其是在早期，你做的所有事情就是用 Instagram 拍照。而不是从其他地方或相机胶卷上传照片。

I think for me it's very much when you're in that phase, as you're making changes and as you're showing it to people and they're giving you feedback, and maybe you even have some people using it, does it feel like the more you change or as you listen to feedback and make some alterations, is there a snowball effect where energy is increasing? We definitely saw that in early Instagram. We had initially a group of maybe 20, 30 people using it in just a private beta, and it was very much a weekend product, right? Because you're out and about, and especially in the early days, that's all you were doing was just taking photos with Instagram. It wasn't that you were uploading photos from somewhere else or your camera roll.

所以我们发现，我们整周都在工作，然后周五把新版本发给那 20、30、40 个测试者，周末再看看会发生什么。每个周末，我们做的那些改动，都会听到人们说，哦，我试了新滤镜，我试了这个东西，进展不错。所以这就是我经常关注的东西。我觉得什么时候该转型公司或者转向别的事情，就是当你觉得，天哪，我试过了我所有的想法，或者我加了 30 个功能，但没一个真正受欢迎，或者人们觉得还行但不够兴奋。那时候你可能就该退一步说，也许精力应该花在别的地方。这不是科学的方法，但当你觉得投入一个单位能产出 10 个单位时，那是好感觉。当感觉投入 10 个单位只产出 1 个单位时，就该转型做别的事了。

And so we would find that we would work all week and then on Friday we'd ship a new version to those like 20, 30, 40 testers and then we'd see what would happen over the weekend. And every weekend those changes that we were making, we'd hear from people, oh, I tried the new filter, I tried this thing, it's going well. So that's what I look for a lot. And I think where it's time to maybe either pivot the company or move on to something else is when you feel like, man, I've tried every idea that I have or I've added 30 things and none of them are really sticking or people are kind of okay about it but they're not excited about it. And that's maybe where you might want to step back and say there's probably energy better spent somewhere else. Like the way it's not scientific, but when you feel like one unit of input you're getting 10 units of output, that's a good feeling. When it feels like 10 units of input, you're getting one of output, it's time to pivot to something else.

我们来谈谈那些已经有自己生意的人。我听过你谈到人们在自己的业务中还没有充分利用 AI。你觉得创业者可以用云来自动化一些操作，而不需要太懂技术的两三个最重要的场景是什么？

Let's talk about people who already have a business. I've heard you talk about how people are not using AI enough in their businesses. What do you think are top maybe two or three cases how entrepreneurs can use cloud to automate some operations which doesn't require you to be very technical?

是的。实际上，我刚刚和一个朋友聊过，他是第二次或第三次创业的创始人，他跟我说，"迈克，我真高兴你推出了 Claude Max，因为 Claude 就是我的产品经理。Claude 是我的律师。Claude 也是我的，你知道，创始人的心理治疗师。" 他做的事情是，为每个职能都建了一个 Claude 项目。所以，他有产品经理 Claude，有合同 Claude，他就用这些来处理所有那些事情。这让他能非常精简地运营一家初创公司，完成那些部分。所以，即使他本人相当懂技术，但他日常并不是真的用 Claude 来写代码，他实际上已经把 Claude 设置成了这些职能的迷你版。即使模型在这些方面还在变得越来越强大。即使在今天，只要有正确的上下文和正确的历史背景，你真的可以开始拥有这些按工作职能划分的思考伙伴，对于创业者来说，当然，你可以有一个模型来验证你的想法，或者发现你可能遗漏的东西，另一个做竞争情报，了解外面有什么，理解那些部分，当然，帮你用代码构建是另一部分，但除此之外，我喜欢这样想：当你发展公司时，你会去招聘。我想要最好的 CFO。我想要最好的产品负责人，等等。当你是个创业者，尤其是像我这样没有庞大网络的第一次创业者，你都是自己干这些事。所以，为什么不试着通过像 Claude 这样的东西，把我们知道的精华带进公司呢？

Yeah. So, I was actually talking to a fellow friend who's a second or third time founder and he was telling me he's like, "Mike, I'm really glad you launched Claude Max because Claude is my product manager. Claude is my lawyer. Claude is my, you know, founder therapist as well." And what he does is he has a Claude project for each of those disciplines. So, he has his product manager Claude, he has his contracts Claude, and he just uses that for all of those things. It's let him run a very lean initial company overall and do those pieces. And so even though he happens to be fairly technical, but he's not coding with Claude really in his day-to-day, he's actually set up Claude to be sort of a mini version of some of these disciplines already. Even as the models continue to get more and more powerful in those ways. Even today with the right context and the right sort of history around something you really can start having these sort of per job function thought partners in there and for an entrepreneur for sure you know have a model that validates your idea or sees what you might be missing, another one doing competitive intelligence to understand what's even out there and understanding those pieces of course helping you build with code is another part of it too but even beyond that the way I like to think of it: when you grow a company, you want to go hire. I want the best CFO. I want the best head of product, etc. When you're an entrepreneur, especially like I was a first-time entrepreneur without a big network, you're doing all those things yourself. So, why not try to bring the best of what we know into that company via something like Claude?

你觉得两三年后会发生什么？我们会如何进步？

What do you think is going to happen in two or three years? How we're going to progress in advance?

我觉得部分原因是，我今天早上甚至和我们的研究人员聊过，我看到的进展或动态是，如果去年，也许是今年年初，这些模型，我用 Claude 作为例子，真的更像是助手，一次帮你回答一个问题或完成一个任务，对吧？今年它们更多转向协作者，特别是如果你看到有人用 Claude Code，他们实际上在委派那些本来要花 20、30 分钟的任务，Claude 去执行，然后你检查一下，你更多是在做验证或核实的工作，对吧？进入明年，你会委派更大块的时间，甚至工作的一部分给它。所以，不只是"我有这个非常具体的事情，请去做"。它可能更像是，把 Claude 看作是你业务中的一个环节。所以，"嘿，Claude，留意任何新的用户反馈，并基于此提出一个改动建议。" 你可以想象这如何演进。不只是提出改动，而是写代码来实现改动，我来检查这是不是个好主意。然后下一步是 Claude 真正成为一个完整的同事，它有自己擅长的领域。所以，不仅仅是一个碰巧是产品管理好思考伙伴的项目，而是你公司里一个真正的产品经理。

I think part of it and I was having this conversation this morning even with some of our researchers, the progression or the dynamic that I see is if last year maybe the beginning of this year, these models and I'll use Claude as the example, were really kind of assistants that were helping you with maybe a question at a time or maybe a task, right? This year they're moving more into collaborators where especially if you watch somebody use Claude Code for example, they're actually delegating what would have taken them maybe 20, 30 minutes and Claude's going off and doing it and then you're checking in and you're more on the sort of validating or verifying work, right? Going into next year, you're going to delegate even bigger chunks of time or even like pieces of the job out to that. So, it's not just I have this very specific thing, please go do it. And it could be more sort of think of it, Claude, as something that's in the loop of your business. So, hey Claude, watch for any new user feedback and maybe propose a change based on that. And you can imagine evolving that. Don't just propose a change, write the code to make the change and I'll check if it's a good idea or not. And then the next step there is Claude actually being an entire sort of co-worker where it has a discipline. So, not just a project that happens to be a good thought partner for product management, but an actual product manager in your company.

就像主动行动，对吧？你是这个意思吗？当它，我不知道，看着你的广告然后说，"嘿，嘿，嘿，我要改这个。"

Like being active, right? Is that what you mean? When it, I don't know, look at your ads and says like, "Hey, hey, hey, I'm going to change this."

正是如此。

Exactly.

它在告诉你。

He's telling you.

那么，你觉得这什么时候会发生？

So, when do you think that's going to happen?

我觉得这取决于具体领域，在编码类任务上，我认为一年内我们就会看到 Claude 能做那些事。而在其他一些领域，可能更接近两三年，但不会太遥远。而且它不会把所有事情都做得完美无缺，仍然需要人类在环中进行验证。但我觉得最大的转变将是这种自主性和主动性——你不再需要每次都给它明确的指令，而是几乎可以描述你希望它扮演什么角色，只要把它连接到正确的数据源，它就能扮演那个角色。

I think that is within, you know, it depends a little bit on the discipline with coding sort of tasks. I think within the year we'll start seeing Claude be able to do those things. And I think in some of these other disciplines maybe it's more like two or three years, but it's not wildly far away. And it's not that it's going to do everything perfectly well. There's still going to be this validation human in the loop aspect of it. But I think the big shift is going to be this autonomy and proactivity where you're not having to give it explicit instructions every time and instead you can almost describe what kind of role you want it to play and then it will be able to play that role as long as you've connected it to the right data sources.

还有你希望它多主动，对吧？因为现在基本上只是你在聊天。我希望模型也能主动跟我说话，比如“嘿，我刚注意到这个”。

And how active you want it to be, right? Because now it's basically just you chatting. I want the model to be talking to me as well proactively, like hey I just noticed this.

那会很酷。

That would be cool.

没错。

Exactly.

半年前，Dario Amodei 说 90% 的代码将由 AI 编写。现在 Anthropic 有多少比例的代码是由 AI 写的？

Half a year ago, Dario Amodei said 90% of code would be written by AI. What percentage of code is written by AI at Anthropic now?

这取决于产品，但对于那些最接近“由 AI 编写”的产品，比如 Claude Code，它们的开发几乎完全是用 Claude 来开发 Claude。

It depends on the product, but for our products that are sort of the closest to being written, so Claude Code for example, they're doing almost entirely the development of that is using Claude to develop Claude.

它如何改变了你的工作方式？

How has it changed the way you work?

嗯，它让我——我喜欢保持技术性，但我日常往往忙于外部事务或管理。它让我能继续保持技术性，这很有趣。因为我们已经把代码库调整为可以由 Claude 编写，这意味着像我这样的人也能参与贡献。所以我们本周早些时候发布了 Claude for Chrome，我在出差时有点时间，就说：“哦，我有两小时空闲，我要做什么？”我想，“我要为这个我们知道几周后就要发布的东西做点贡献。”所以它确实扩大了能贡献的人群。我觉得它也转移了瓶颈所在，那些我们需要特别关注的地方。所以我们现在在前期投入了更多时间，确保团队对需要完成的事情有清晰共识，这样就不会出现我们有能快速编码的惊人技术，但工程师们却不确定要构建什么的情况。所以这仍然非常重要，保持一致，有共同的愿景。而在最后一部分，即代码准备好提交和审查时，进入我们代码库的拉取请求和变更数量急剧加速。我们的一位开发者生产力工程师上周分享了这一点——我们在这方面也呈指数增长。所以我们也必须重新设计那些系统。

Well, it's let me—I like being technical, but my day-to-day often is in external commitments or doing management. It's let me remain really technical, which is fun. So because we've oriented the codebase to being able to be written by Claude, it means somebody like me can also contribute as well. So we launched our Claude for Chrome just earlier this week, and I had a little bit of time on a business trip and I said, "Oh, I have two hours free. What am I going to do?" I was like, "I'm going to contribute to this thing that I know we're shipping in a couple of weeks." So it's broadened the group of people that can contribute, for sure. I think it's also kind of moved where the bottlenecks are, where we need to pay special attention to. So I think we've put more time up front now into, all right, let's get clarity across our team about what needs to get done, so that we don't have this amazing technology that can code really quickly but the engineers are actually not even sure what the thing is that needs to get built. So that still remains very important, right, being aligned, having that consistent vision. And then on the last part, which is that codes being ready to get committed and get reviewed, the number of pull requests and changes that are going into our codebase is just dramatically accelerated. One of our developer productivity engineers shared this last week—we're just on an exponential there too. So we've had to re-engineer those systems too.

太疯狂了。哇。Claude for Chrome。你提到了——它能处理邮件吗？就像昨天发生的事。我刚出差回来。我的孩子们去上学，他们——因为有些孩子，比如 Lily，不会说英语。她不明白发生了什么。她说“明天是睡衣日”，我问我的 AI：“真的吗？”它说：“不不，一切正常，学校没什么事。”结果我们去了，就是睡衣日。

Crazy. Wow. Claude for Chrome. You mentioned—is it gonna fix email? Something done for us like yesterday. I just came back from a business trip. My kids went to school and they were—because they don't really—some of them like Lily who doesn't speak English. She doesn't understand what's going on. She was like tomorrow's pajamas day and I was asking my AI like is it really? And it's like no no all good nothing's happening at school. And of course we come and it's pajamas.

睡衣日。是啊。

Pajamas day. Yeah.

就像“哎呀”。

Like oops.

而且这很有趣。我们在公司面前做的演示是 Claude 分类邮件，它现在可能还是太慢，无法成为你处理邮件的主要方式。但我试过，比如我有很多待处理的 LinkedIn 邀请，我想忽略那些不真实的，但我想确保如果是 Anthropic 的人，或者听起来认识我的人，我们一定要抓住那些。所以我让 Claude 对整个收件箱进行分类，实际上花了一个小时，它处理完了。

And it was interesting. The demo we had in front of the company was like Claude triaging emails, and it's still probably too slow right now to be the main way in which you interact with your emails. But I went through, for example, I had a lot of pending LinkedIn invites, and I wanted to ignore the ones that weren't real, but I wanted to make sure that if it was somebody from Anthropic or it sounded like they knew me, that we would make sure that we captured those. And so I had Claude just kind of triage that whole inbox for, you know, an hour actually, and it went through.

你需要写代码还是只是问它？

Did you have to code something or you just asked?

只是问它。我说：“嘿，”

Just asked it. I was like, "Hey,"

那就是 Claude for Chrome，对吧？直接让它去处理。

That's Claude for Chrome, right? Just ask it to go through.

是的。访问 LinkedIn。看看我的邀请。

Yeah. Visit LinkedIn. Look at my invitations.

成为你浏览器里的助手。

Be your assistant in your browser.

没错。

Exactly.

你能分享一些你个人使用 Claude 的习惯吗？

Can you share some personal practices for how you use Claude?

对我来说，每当我写了什么东西，我发现我仍然想自己先写初稿，因为，你知道，有时候写作就是思考，这很重要，至少对我来说，我是在通过写作表达自己。但在给任何人看之前，基本上任何我写的实质性内容，我都会告诉 Claude 说：“嘿，我在写这个，我漏掉了什么？请挑战我还没说到的部分。”有时它会给你一个建议。范围从“我不敢相信我忘了提到那个。分享这份文件而没有这个会非常尴尬。”到有时候是“哦哇，我甚至没想到这个维度。这是非常新颖和不同的东西。”实际上，我较少用它来做文字编辑，但我经常用它来挑战我的想法，并弄清楚，你知道，一个非常聪明的人看到这个会问什么后续问题，然后你能从那里继续吗？

For me, it's anytime I've written something. I found that I still want to take the first draft myself because, you know, sometimes writing is thinking and that's really important that you're actually—at least for me—that I'm kind of expressing myself through writing. But before showing any human, basically anything I write that's of substance, I'll basically tell Claude and say, "Hey, I'm writing on this, like what am I missing? Please challenge me on what I haven't said yet." And sometimes it'll give you a suggestion. And it ranges from "I can't believe I forgot to address that. It would have been really embarrassing to share this document and not have this." And then sometimes it's, "Oh wow, I wasn't even thinking about this dimension. It's something very new and different." And actually, I use it less for copy editing, but I use it a lot for challenging my ideas and figuring out how to, you know, understand what a very smart person looking at this would ask as the next follow-up question, and then can you kind of go from there?

你还在打字吗？你说你在写作，或者你会用语音。

Do you still type? You said you're writing or you would do voice.

这是混合的。我有时用 Claude 做的另一件事是，当我有写作瓶颈时，我需要开始，但我仍然想要自己理清一个想法的体验，我会打开语音模式，有时跟它说 20 分钟，最后说：“好了，说了很多。现在，你能把它整理成一份真正连贯的文档，让我可以发送吗？”

It's kind of a mix. Another thing I've done with Claude sometimes when I'm like—I'm a little bit of writer's block. I need to get started, but I still want that experience of working through an idea myself is I will turn on the voice mode and just talk to it for 20 minutes sometimes, and at the end say, "All right, that was a lot. Now, can you organize that into some kind of real cohesive document that you can that I can send?"

你觉得 AI 什么时候能比人类更好地产生想法？因为我看到的是，你有营销 AI，你有产品 AI。如果我们把所有这些结合起来，告诉 AI：“嘿，去识别市场中你可以建立业务的利基，建立业务，投放广告，为我赚钱。”你觉得这什么时候会发生？

When do you think it's going to happen that AI generates ideas better than humans? Because what I see this going, you have this marketing AI, you have this product AI. What if we just combine all of this and tell like hey AI go identify niches in the market where you can build a business, build a business, launch ads, make me money. Like when do you think it's going to happen?

嗯，这是个有趣的问题。我们在内部做的一个实验是——我们有一个团队开始真正专注于 Claude 在现实世界中的应用，或者说 Claude 的前沿应用，以及通过研究它能学到什么。我们让它做的事情之一是实际运营一台自动售货机，现在办公室里有好几台了。所以人们可以和 Claude 对话。

Well, it's an interesting one. Experiment we ran internally is—so we have a whole team that's really starting to focus on Claude in the real world, or frontier applications of Claude, and what can we learn by studying it. And one of the things that we had it do is actually run a vending machine, and now it's multiple vending machines here at the office. And so people could talk to Claude.

这是一篇很棒的文章，叫 Project Vend。有趣的是，在某些情况下它非常能干。比如它能跟踪库存、下补货订单、做所有这些事情，还能和跟它对话的人互动，但作为一个纯粹的商业体，它还是会犯一些错误，比如高估需求、对某些商品定价过高或过低。所以我认为，在它完全准备好成为“盒子里的创业者”之前，我们需要培养的一个方面是更多的商业嗅觉，以及如何理解市场，比如什么真正卖得动，等等。但我们经常发现，只要稍加引导或反馈，它其实能做得非常好。所以也许一开始，它还是需要和人搭档。我们开始吧，就像商学院入门课那样：识别一个问题或市场空白，尝试一下，从中学习，看看什么有效、什么无效，然后在此基础上继续构建。但我觉得同样有趣的是，你还可以围绕人们搜索什么、需求是什么、其他产品得到的反馈是什么（也许新产品能更好地填补这些空白）来设计一些实验，然后让 Claude 既头脑风暴出点子，又去把它建出来。

It's a great paper. It's called Project Vend. And what's interesting is in some cases it's very capable. Like it was able to track inventory, place backup orders, do all these things, interact with the people who were talking to it, but as a pure business, it still made some mistakes like overestimating demand, overcharging or undercharging for certain things. So I think one aspect that we need to develop before it's fully ready to be an entrepreneur in a box is a little bit more of that business sense and how to understand the market, like what is actually sellable, etc. But often we find with some steering or some feedback it actually can do very well. So maybe initially it's still going to be all right, partner with a person. Let's go, you know, maybe like business school 101, like identify a problem or a market gap, try it out, learn from it, see what worked and what didn't and build from there. But what I think is also really interesting is that you can also set up some experiments around like what are the things that people are searching for, what are the demands, what are the feedback that other products are getting that maybe a new product could fill better, and then have Claude both brainstorm the idea and then also go off and build it.

作为创业者，当 AI 变得如此强大时，你觉得这对你来说更令人鼓舞还是更令人沮丧？

Do you think it's more for you as an entrepreneur, is it more encouraging or discouraging when AI is getting so powerful?

对我来说，多年来我观察到，创业的摩擦在某些方面已经减少了，在其他方面则差不多。关于如何注册公司或融资的资源比当年我第一次做 Instagram 时要多得多，但构建东西仍然是个挑战，而且需要继续变得更简单。所以我一直觉得，好点子比能把这些点子呈现出来的产品要多。所以我觉得有更多这样的东西出现是令人兴奋的。部分原因也是，如果创建公司的成本下降，我们也应该会有新的融资模式。不是每个想法都需要成为风投支持的十亿美元级大生意。但如果你必须围绕它组建一个完整的技术团队，你必须去招人，那就需要资金了。所以我对未来 5 年非常兴奋，既包括那些改变世界的、风投支持的、野心勃勃的公司，也包括那些为特定人群很好地解决一个问题、也许保持 1 到 5 人团队加上 AI 的公司。

I think for me, having watched over the years, the friction to starting something new in some ways has decreased, in other cases it's about the same. There's more resources out there about what it's like to incorporate or raise money than there was when I was doing even Instagram for the first time, but building stuff is still a challenge and that needs to continue to get easier. So I always felt like there were more good ideas than there were products that kind of surface those ideas out there. So I think it's exciting to have more of that out there. Partially also because if the cost of creating that company goes down, we should also get new funding models. Not every idea needs to be a huge venture funded, billion dollar business. But if you have to build a whole tech team around it and you have to go hire, then it's going to require some funding. And so I'm very excited about, call it the next 5 years of companies that can scale from the world-changing venture-funded crazy ambitious companies, but also the ones that solve a problem really well for a particular demographic and maybe remain a one to five person team along with AI.

是的，我觉得这就是这个模式的意义所在，因为我以创作者的身份融过资，我是第一个这么做的创作者。我觉得现在是投资人的时代，因为他们现在可以在一年内迭代这么多想法，你想支持那些有想法并能执行的人。

Yeah, this is where I think this model, because I raised venture capital as a creator, like I was the first creator to do that. I feel like this is the age where you invest in humans because now they can iterate through so many ideas and a year and you want to back someone who has these ideas and can execute.

100%。

100%.

对于所有正在观看的创业者，如果他们想开始，今天应该从哪里开始？

For all the entrepreneurs who are watching, where should they start today if they want to start?

我认为有两件事是当下这个时刻特有的，而不是一般创业的通用建议。第一，不要为模型今天的能力去构建，而要为它们在一两代模型之后能达到的水平去构建。等你建好了，模型已经进步了。所以要做到这一点，你要尽可能地去压榨模型，几乎要把它弄坏，然后说：“哇，如果……那该多好？”有人内部做过一个实验，他们把整个待办事项清单交给 Claude，说：“嘿，Claude，去做所有这些事。”它很快就遇到了瓶颈，因为它没有关于我的所有信息，所以做不了；或者在我们有 Claude for Chrome 之前，它不能用我的浏览器，所以不能去填我需要填的表单。但你可以想象，如果它能呢？我是不是应该朝那个方向构建？这感觉像是五年的旅程，还是像两个月、六个月，而且事情在加速？所以这是非常重要的一点。我认为最好的公司正在构建，准备利用模型持续改进这一事实，而你作为创业者的优势在于你没有遗留代码库，没有用户以特定方式使用产品。你可以为那个拐点而构建。

I think there are two things that are unique to the moment versus generally about starting companies. One is not building for where the models are today, but where you think they can get to in one or two model generations. By the time you've built it, the models will have moved on. And so the way you do that is to push the models as hard as you can, like break them almost and say, "Wow, wouldn't it be great if..." One experiment somebody ran internally was they gave Claude their whole to-do list in reminders or something and said, "Hey, Claude, go do all these things." It really quickly hit a point where it didn't have all the information about me so it can't do it, or this is before we had Claude for Chrome, it can't use my browser so it can't go and fill out this form that I needed to fill out. But then you can imagine, well, what if it could? Should I be building towards that? And does that feel like a five-year journey or like a two months and six months and things are accelerating? So that's a very big piece. I think the best companies are building ready to take advantage of the fact that the models will continue to improve, and your advantage as an entrepreneur is that you don't have a legacy codebase. You don't have people using a product in a particular way. You can build for that inflection point.

只是很难预测模型是否会接管你的整个业务领域，对吧？

It's just so hard to predict if the model is going to take over your whole business niche, right?

但我认为，在三年的时间范围内确实很难预测，到那时你也可以在一定程度上发展业务。但看看模型 6 个月前不擅长什么、现在擅长什么，或者今天还行但未来可能更好的地方，我认为这真的可以来自与它们的持续接触。

But I think that, and it's definitely hard to predict in the three-year range, at that point you can also kind of evolve the business. But seeing what models were bad at 6 months ago or are better at now or okay today but could be better in the future, I think that can really come just from constant contact with them.

然后就开始迭代。

And just start iterating.

是的。

Yeah.

与一年后能做同样事情的模型相比，你的优势会是什么？

What would be your advantage compared to a model that could do the same thing in a year?

是的，确实如此。没错。如果你能创造那种优势，如果你在边缘地带构建并且了解你的客户群体，那么你将是最适合说“好吧，你知道还有什么变好了吗？这个方面。我明白它将如何与我的客户群体联系起来”的人。而且我已经有了关系，因为人们仍然寻求信任，对吧？一个了解他们群体并拥有关系的人，任何时候都比一个全新的人或他们从未互动过的公司更值得信赖。

Yeah, it's very much so. Exactly. If you can create that, if you're building at that edge and you understand your customer segment, then you're going to be the one that is best suited to say, "All right, you know what also got better? This aspect. And I get how that's going to connect to my customer segment." And I already have the relationships, because people still seek trust, right? And somebody who understands their segment and has the relationships is going to be a more trustworthy source any day than a brand new person or a company that they've never interacted with before.

是的。我喜欢你在一次采访中说的，每个产品都有这种“氛围”。

Yeah. And I like how you said in one of your interviews that every product has this vibe.

是的。

Yes.

如果你带着热情去构建某样东西，那么它肯定有你的氛围，对吧？有些人会与之产生共鸣，那将是你的。

And if you're building something with passion, then it definitely has your vibe, right? That some people are going to connect with and that's going to be yours.

没错。对。那是你的声音在传达，甚至超越了 AI 所能提供的任何东西。

Exactly. Right. And that's your voice coming through there, even beyond whatever AI is going to provide.

你对那些想创业的创业者有什么建议？你认为哪些细分领域潜力最大？

What would be your advice to entrepreneurs who are looking to start a company? What niches do you think have the most potential?

我认为人们从根本上仍然是人类，仍然有非常人性化的需求。

I think people are still fundamentally human and still have very human needs.

所以我认为，很多我仍然觉得非常重要的方面，例如人们的身心健康。尽管 AI 在这些方面的帮助才刚刚开始，但我认为这方面的潜力还大得多。我们如何与自己相处？我们如何发展对自己表现良好之处和可以改进之处的理解？我们如何作为个人，同时也作为团队或伙伴持续成长？所以这是另一个我希望看到更多公司涌现的领域。健身和表现教练也是另一个重要的领域。

So I think a lot of the aspects I still think about being really important are, for example, people's health, both physical and mental. And even though there's the beginning of AI helping with those aspects, I think there's so much more potential around that as well. How do we relate to ourselves? How do we develop our own understanding of where we're showing up well, where we could be showing up better, and how we can continue to evolve as individuals, but also as teams or as partners? So that's another area that I think I'm excited for more companies to get formed in. Fitness and performance coaching is another place that's important there too.

我认为还会出现一种回归实体或现实世界的复兴。你知道，社交媒体这种东西，Instagram 在其鼎盛时期是帮助人们走出去，以不同的方式看世界。但规模化之后，它可能更多地变成了看别人在做什么，而不是自己走出去，对吧？那么，我们如何催生新的公司和产品，无论是探索新事物、以新的视角看城市，还是以不同的方式参与公民活动？我认为这些并不都需要 AI，但如果做得好，它们可以得到 AI 的推动。

I think there's also going to be this renaissance of being into the physical or the real world. You know, you had very much this social media thing that was, you know, Instagram at its best was helping people get out and see the world in a different way. At scale, maybe it became more about watching what other people were doing than going out yourself, right? So how do we get new companies and products that are about either exploring something new, getting to see the city through a new light, participating in a civic way that's different? I think not all of these require AI, but done right, they could be encouraged by AI.

创业者应该关注什么？是在他们构建的细分领域获得专业知识，还是专注于识别这些细分领域并迭代想法？

What should entrepreneurs be focusing on? Is it getting expertise in the niche where they're building, or just being focused on identifying those niches and iterating ideas?

我认为很多最重要的公司都将来自于理解这些细分领域或业务。比如我的一个朋友正在建筑领域创业，她参加了所有的建筑会议，结识了真正在该领域工作的人，并理解了其中独特重要的东西。这让我想起我在斯坦福 D School 的时候，那整个培养同理心、讲故事以及真正触及需求核心的过程，在那里技术才能真正对一个行业或一个人产生积极影响。这最终变得非常非常重要。

I think a lot of the most important companies are going to come from understanding those niches or those businesses. So a friend of mine is building a company in the construction space, and she went to all of the construction conferences, got to know people really building in that space, and understood what is uniquely important about that. This reminds me a lot of when I was at the Stanford D School, that whole process of developing empathy and storytelling and really getting to the heart of what the needs are where technology actually can have an impact on an industry or a person in a positive way. That ends up being very, very important.

我还遇到过另一位创业者，他为一种非常特定的法律业务使用 AI，他们前往美国那些并非最科技前沿的州，花大量时间与从事该特定领域的人在一起。所以我认为，这种专业知识将是区分公司的关键，因为构建会变得更容易，但真正知道该构建什么以及如何针对性地构建，这才是真正有价值的。

I've also met another entrepreneur who works with AI for a very specific type of legal practice, and they're going off to states in the US that aren't the most tech-forward, spending a lot of time with people who are in that particular discipline. So that kind of expertise is, I think, what is going to differentiate the companies, because it's going to be easier to build, but that knowledge of what actually to build and how to build very specifically for that is going to be what's really valuable.

那营销呢？因为感觉上，想法，我可以产生很多想法。Claude 可以帮助我，然后我用 Claude 或 Replit 或 Lovable 构建产品。营销会发生什么？每个人都在说，嘿，社交媒体上应该发什么，否则你怎么推广你的想法？你怎么看？

What about marketing? Because it feels like, okay, ideas, I can generate a lot of ideas. Claude can help me, then I build the product with Claude or Replit or Lovable. What's going to happen to marketing? Everyone's talking about like, hey, what should be on social media because otherwise how do you market your idea? What do you think?

这肯定已经从我们构建 Instagram 时发生了演变。当时你推广产品的方式，尤其是像 Instagram 这样的社交产品，对我们来说，是人们将他们的 Instagram 创作分享到 Facebook 和当时的 Twitter，然后看到链接，然后发现它。现在已经明显转向了更多的创作者模式，无论是在 Instagram 还是 TikTok 上，人们讲述这些故事并发现这些产品。现在观察这种演变很有趣，也在想接下来会发生什么。还会是算法推荐吗？我们会回归口碑传播吗，比如，我真的很喜欢这个东西，它解决了我的非常具体的问题，我要分享给你？也许需要的是这两者的某种结合。但我完全同意，除了对市场的理解之外，能够围绕产品讲述故事也将是差异化的关键。

That's definitely evolved from when we were building Instagram. The way you got your product out there, especially a social product like Instagram was for us, people sharing their Instagram creations to Facebook and to Twitter at the time, and then seeing that link and then finding that. It's definitely shifted to much more of this creator thing, whether it's on Instagram or on TikTok, and people telling those stories and discovering those products. It's interesting watching that evolution now and kind of wondering what comes after that as well. Is it going to be still algorithmic recommendations? Are we going to return to word of mouth, like, I really like this thing and it solved my very specific problem and I'm going to share it with you? And maybe there's some combination of those two that needs to happen. But I completely agree that what will also differentiate beyond an understanding of a market is the ability to tell the story around that.

是啊，内容会发生什么？我认为在两三年内，我的信息流可能 50% 是 AI 生成的，这有点疯狂，或者我看到 AI 生成的图片。我一直在尝试使用世界各地的社交产品，有一段时间我在使用一个在中国非常流行的社交媒体应用，让我印象深刻的是，有些创作者非常擅长 AI 生成的奇幻建筑，他们拥有真正的粉丝，尽管他们的作品都是生成的，因为他们有自己的声音。所以我认为这是下一个很多人做得不好的地方，是的，你可以用 AI 生成视频或文本，但如果它只是泛泛的，或者只是一堆你设法生成的随机内容，我不认为那会带来粉丝或在这些平台上真正的存在感。

Yeah, what was going to happen to content? I think in two or three years, my feed is like maybe 50% AI, something like crazy going on, or I see an AI generated image. It's been in like, I use trying to use social products from all around the world, and for a while I was using a social media app that was very popular in China, and the thing that struck me was that you had creators that were really good at AI generated sort of fantastical architecture, and they had a real following even though their work was all generated, because they had a voice. So I think that is the next piece that not a lot of people are doing well, which is yes, you can be using AI for generating videos or text, but if it's just generic or if it's just a bunch of random things that you manage to generate, I don't think that's going to generate following or a real presence on these platforms.

相比之下，我记得有一位摄影师，一位早期的 Instagram 摄影师，可能是我们最早的一万用户之一，他每天拍一张窗外同一座山的照片。那是他的一种摄影实践。那真的很酷，因为他的粉丝可以看到他对世界的看法和视角。我认为作为创作者要成功，即使使用 AI 工具，也需要如此。

Whereas, I remember there was a photographer, an early Instagram photographer, probably one of our first 10,000 users, and he took a photo of the same hill outside his window every day. And it was like a photographic practice that he had. And that was really cool because then his followers could see that he had a view of the world and a kind of perspective. And I think the same thing needs to be true to succeed as a creator, even if you're using AI tools.

是的，这很吸引人。让我们谈谈那些没有创业野心的人，但他们说，我想为公司工作。你在 Anthropic 的招聘策略最近有变化，对吗？你正在招聘更多高层人员。是这样吗？

Yeah, that's fascinating. Let's talk about people who don't have entrepreneurial ambitions, but they're like, I want to work for a company. Your hiring strategy at Anthropic has changed recently, right? You're hiring more high-level people. Is that right?

这是一种转变。所以我的看法是，你希望人们更多地由他们想解决的问题以及他们如何创造性地解决这些问题来定义，而不是非常具体的，比如，我懂 JavaScript，我要在这个确切的环境中工作。所以我仍然非常被那些在周末或业余时间制作原型想法的人所吸引。他们想出了一些东西，甚至把它带到面试过程中。你知道，我们谈过的一些产品经理有他们一直在进行的实验文化。我认为这非常有趣。我在招聘时真的很看重这一点。

It's a kind of a shift. So the way I think about it is you want people that are going to be defined more about the problems that they want to solve and how they can creatively solve them than a very specific sort of, I know JavaScript and I'm going to do work in this exact environment. And so I'm still really drawn to the folks that on the weekends or in their spare time are prototyping ideas. They came up with something, they're bringing that even to the interview process. You know, some of our product managers that we've talked to have had like a culture of experimentation that they've been working through. And I think that's very interesting. I really look for that when I'm hiring.

有趣的是，这和我为 Instagram 招聘时并没有太大不同。我总是倾向于那些，如果你在周一早上和他们交谈，他们会告诉你他们感兴趣的新事物的人。甚至不一定与技术相关，但就是那种好奇心。

Interesting thing is it's not so different than when I was hiring for Instagram. The people I always gravitated towards were ones that, if you talk to them on a Monday morning, they'd tell you all about the new thing that they got interested in. Doesn't have to even be tech-related, but there is that sort of curiosity.

兴奋感。是的。

Excitement. Yeah.

正是如此。

Exactly.

而且我依然绝对在寻找这一点。然后关于我们想建立的团队的构成，我们还没有暑期实习项目。所以我们倾向于少招应届大学毕业生，但我一直在和很多可能正在上大学或刚毕业的人交谈。他们也通过 AI 来理解市场、理解动态，以他们自己的方式展现创业精神，即使他们没有创办自己的公司，然后进入公司讲述那个故事。

And I still absolutely look for that as well. And then in terms of the makeup of the teams that we want to build, we haven't had a summer internship program. So we've tended less to hire fresh college grads, but I've been talking to a lot of people who are maybe going through college now or recent graduates. They're also enabling themselves via AI to understand the market, understand the dynamics, be entrepreneurial in their own way, even if they're not starting their own companies, and then coming into companies and telling that story.

你是怎么学会的？你是怎么学会变得有创业精神或产生想法的？你在教你的孩子这些吗？

How do you learn that? How do you learn how to become entrepreneurial or generate ideas? Are you teaching your kids that?

嗯，我是说，我们的孩子还很小。我确实试着鼓励观察世界、对周围事物保持开放的想法。我早期做的一件事是有一个小笔记本，我到处带着，基本上总是在写、在构思，为那种安静的构思时间留出空间，这非常有用。我见过人们使用 Claude 的一种方式：如果你向 Claude 要一个想法，它会生成一个想法，也许是个好想法。但它的独特之处在于它也能生成 50 或 100 个想法。所以我发现一个有用的做法是给它五到十个，然后让它填补接下来的 30 个，也许其中一个会激发别的。有很多研究表明，让人们在一个房间里一起头脑风暴不如让一个人写下 10 个想法，然后把那 10 个想法传给下一个人，让他们生成接下来的 10 个。所以你可以用 AI 模拟同样的过程。

Well, I mean, our kids are pretty young. I do try to encourage the idea of observing the world and being open to what is there. The thing I did early on was I had a little notebook that I would carry around everywhere and basically just always writing and ideating, making space for that sort of quiet ideation time, which is really useful. One of the ways I've seen people use Claude: if you ask Claude for one idea, it'll generate an idea, maybe a good one. But the thing that's unique about it is it can also generate 50 or 100 ideas. So a practice I find useful is give it five or ten and then ask it to fill in the next 30, and maybe one of those sparks something else. There's a lot of research where asking people to brainstorm together in a room is not as effective as asking one person to write down 10 ideas and pass those 10 ideas to the next person, have them generate the next 10. So you can simulate that same process but with AI.

那么，你产生想法的仪式是什么？你说了安静的时间。你会去散步吗？

Now, what is your ritual for generating ideas? You said quiet time. Do you go on a walk?

散步对我非常有帮助。我也喜欢任何形式的重复动作。我买了一台 Peloton 划船机，我发现那是一个非常重复的动作，但然后你的思绪可以开始游荡，开始思考那些不同的事情。而且，你需要给你的大脑机会，在你没有专注的时候建立新的连接，然后也许稍后它会回来说，‘哦，对，那实际上确实连接得很好。’

Walks are really helpful for me. I also just like any kind of repeated action. I got one of those Peloton rowing machines, and I found that it's a very repetitive action, but then your mind can kind of start wandering and start thinking about those different things. Also, you need to give your brain the opportunity to make new connections while you're not focusing on it, and then maybe later it'll come and say, 'Oh yeah, that actually does connect really well.'

你是每天都为此腾出时间吗？

Is it like every day that you make time for this?

我希望是每天。这些天可能更像是每周一两次，但我每次做的时候都会想，‘我真的应该更经常地做这个’，然后突然我就兴奋地坐下来，把笔落到纸上，然后和团队分享。

I wish it were every day. It's more probably like once or twice a week these days, but I always, every time I do it, I'm like, 'I really should be doing this more regularly,' and all of a sudden I'm excited to sit down and put pen to paper and then share that with the team.

回到孩子的话题呢？我有两个小孩，有时我读到这些文章，说刚大学毕业的人很难找到工作，因为很多入门级工作被 AI 取代了，我就想，‘好吧，我在担心自己，但现在我也得担心他们。’你在教你的孩子什么？你觉得他们 10 年后进入就业市场时会做什么？

What about going back to kids? I have two small kids, and sometimes I read these articles where people who just graduated from college are struggling to find jobs because a lot of entry-level jobs are being replaced with AI, and I'm like, 'Okay, I'm worrying about myself, but now I have to worry about them as well.' What are you teaching your kids? What do you think they're going to do in 10 years when they go out to the job market?

是的，对于一个六岁和一个四岁的孩子来说，预测那个市场是什么样子非常困难。所以‘什么’可能会变化很大，甚至一些‘如何’也会改变，但我认为有几件事值得指出。一是，正如我之前谈到的，对世界保持好奇和观察。这仍然非常强大。我孩子的学校举办了一个全校活动，甚至让幼儿园的孩子们观察学校有什么可以改进的地方，然后制作关于改进想法的海报。这对孩子来说是一个很好的思维练习，甚至只是问那个问题。有些想法很有创意，有些有点傻，但即使拥有那种心态，我认为随着他们长大，对任何人都有好处，因为那是你可以在学校、社区或公司内部尝试做出的改变，等等。所以我认为那部分很重要。我认为另一件应该保持不变的事情是：有很多关于‘学编程，每个人都应该学编程’的能量，我认为太多人把它理解为‘你应该学 Python’。是的，你可以学 Python，那对某些事情会有帮助，但更重要的是，‘你能从系统的角度思考吗，你能系统地思考吗？’那些内化了这一点的人，我认为即使 AI 生成代码的出现，你仍然可以应用那些相同的技巧。而那些只是‘哦，是的，我学了编程，现在因为那个我感到漂泊不定’的人。所以我认为我希望在我的孩子身上鼓励的是那种好奇心和观察力，以及从系统的角度思考的能力——这些东西如何相互关联？每当他们因为所有的政治和新闻而对关税感兴趣时，我妻子有一个非常精彩的互动例子，展示相互依存的经济体如何互动，你可以看到他们的齿轮在转动。所以解释系统，不要只解释事实。

Yeah, it's super hard to predict what that market looks like for a six- and a four-year-old. So the 'what' might change a lot, and even some of the 'how' will change, but I think there are a few things worth calling out. One is, as I talked about before, being curious and observant about the world. That remains really powerful. They did a whole school event at my kids' school around even having the kindergarteners observe what could be better about the school and then create posters about ideas to improve them. That's a great mental exercise for kids, and even to ask that question. Some of the ideas are creative, some are kind of silly, but even having that mentality is something that will serve anybody well as they grow up, because that's a change you could try to make within your school, your community, or your company, and so forth. So I think that piece matters. And I think the other one that should remain constant: there was a lot of energy around 'learn to code, everybody should learn to code,' and I think too many people interpreted that as 'you should learn Python.' Yes, you can learn Python, that's going to be helpful for some things, but more than that, it's 'can you think in terms of systems, can you think systematically?' And the folks who internalized that, I think even with the advent of AI generating code, you can still apply those same techniques. The ones who were just like, 'Oh yeah, I learned to code and now I'm feeling adrift because of that.' So I think what I hope to encourage in my kids is that sense of curiosity and observation, and also the ability to think in terms of systems—how do these things interrelate? Whenever they got interested in tariffs because of all the politics and news, my wife had a really wonderful interactive example of how interdependent economies might interact, and you could see their gears turning. So explain the system, don't just explain the facts.

太棒了。我们能谈谈你的英语吗？因为我开始我的 YouTube 之旅时是谈论英语的，因为我来自俄罗斯。我带着口音来，然后我学会了像美国人一样说话。你听起来像美国人。那是怎么发生的？

Love that. Can we talk a little bit about your English? Because I started my YouTube journey talking about English because I'm originally from Russia. I came with an accent, and then I learned how to speak like an American. You sound like an American. How did that happen?

我认为有几件事。一是我很小的时候对音乐感兴趣，尤其是美国和英国乐队。所以我喜欢 Oasis。实际上，我几周后要去看他们。我很兴奋。我从没见过他们。他们会来这里吗？他们会来 Pasadena。但如果你用那种语言唱歌，你必须听到自己，才能让它押韵或听起来好听。所以我认为音乐是很大一部分。然后我小时候搬了很多次家，唯一不变的是国际学校。所以从很小的时候起，我就是双语的。但我直到 18 岁才住在美国。所以有些词我从来没有真正大声说过，因为我只是读过它们，然后在这里内化了。但这很有趣——我们也有过这种经历——现在我在这里待了一段时间，我现在是这里的公民，但我永远不会完全觉得我来自这里，因为我在巴西长大。但当我去巴西时，我也不觉得完全属于那里。所以既来自两者，又都不属于。

I think it was a couple of things. One was I was interested in music from a very early age, especially American and British bands. So I loved Oasis. Actually, I'm going to go see them in a couple weeks. I'm excited. I never saw them. Are they coming here? They're coming to Pasadena. But if you're singing in that language, you have to hear yourself for it to even rhyme or sound good. So I think music was a big part of it. And then we moved around a bunch when I was a kid, and the one constant was international schools. So starting from a fairly early age, I was bilingual. But I only lived in the States when I turned 18. So there were some words that I had never really said out loud because I just read them and then internalized them over here. But it is funny—we've had this experience too—now I've been here for a while, I'm a citizen here now, but I will never feel fully like I'm from here because I grew up in Brazil. But when I go to Brazil, I don't feel fully there. So kind of from both and from neither.

这太酷了。我想为所有正在观看的移民问个建议。如果你想在 AI 领域创业，你觉得搬到硅谷有意义吗？或者说，有了 AI，你在哪里还重要吗？

Yeah that's super cool. Uh I wanted to ask for advice for all the immigrants who are watching. Do you think it make if you want to build company in AI, do you think it makes sense to move to Silicon Valley or again with AI does it matter where you are?

我认为创建产品的门槛真的、真的缩短了很多。以前，尤其是在巴西，我成长的时候，那里并没有真正优秀工程师的人才市场。我的意思是，现在人才多多了，因为已经有好几代公司被创建起来了，但可能不是每个城市或每个国家都这样。AI 肯定也能在这方面提供帮助。还有更广泛的信息和内容，关于寻找联合创始人时要注意什么。你怎么看待最初的想法？你如何从那里开始构建？你如何营销？而让我非常兴奋的是，每当我与巴西企业家交谈时——我来自巴西——他们理解巴西特有的问题或巴西特有的机会，比如我们独特的支付系统，巴西经济如何运作，公共安全等问题，然后将 AI 或技术应用于这些问题。我认为那里有巨大的机会，而让我兴奋的一点是，在过去，如果你有一个想法，你唯一的路径就是希望我能从硅谷的风险投资那里筹到资金。我认为现在有更多的机会在当地构建，然后尝试融资——你不需要资金来构建——

I think the barrier to creating products has really really you know shortened where now you know before in Brazil especially when I was growing up there there wasn't really a talent market of really good engineers. I mean now there is much more because there's been generations of companies that have been created but that might not be the case for every single kind of city or every single country. AI can definitely help there as well. There's also such a broader uh set of you know information and content around what to look for in a co-founder. How do you think about that initial idea? How do you build from there? How do you market? And what I've been really excited about is, you know, whenever I talk to, for example, Brazilian entrepreneurs where I'm from who are understanding uniquely Brazilian problems or uniquely Brazilian opportunities around our unique payment systems, you know, how uh Brazilian the economy works like the public safety questions and then applying AI or applying technology to those problems. I think there is a tremendous opportunity there and one of the things I get excited about is in the past if you had some an idea there your only path would have been well I hope I can go fund raise from Silicon Valley VCs. I think there's much more of an opportunity to um build that locally and then try to fundra you don't need funds to build an

你至少可以达到那个点，做出一些令人兴奋的东西。

you can at least get to that point where you've gotten something exciting

想结束语言部分。是的。你觉得语言学习会被 AI 取代吗？

wanted to wrap up the language part. Yeah. Do you think language learning is going to be replaced by AI?

我确实在思考这个问题，因为，你知道，我离开巴西已经很久了，所有的口语或俚语都已经变了，而我很久没在那里生活了。所以，尽管我葡萄牙语很流利，我现在会用 Claude 说：“嘿，我要把这个发给一个和我同龄的人，我听起来是不是很老派或者过时了？”它会说：“嗯，你可能想用这种语言，或者类似的东西，你知道，那种细微差别。”我仍然认为学习语言的细微差别仍然很重要。你知道，我们三月份和 Anthropic 团队去了韩国，Claude 的韩语其实相当好。嗯，我们从当地的人那里听说，它是所有模型中韩语最好的，但即便如此，他们说它听起来仍然像一个在洛杉矶长大然后搬回韩国的很酷的韩国人。我当时想，这就是细微差别。我不确定——

I really think about this because, you know, I um I've been out of Brazil for long enough where all of the sort of like colloquialism or slang has moved on and I just haven't lived there in a long time. And so I've used even though I fluent in Portuguese, I'll now use Claude and say, "Hey, I'm about to send this to somebody who's like my age, like do I sound old or do I sound like out of date?" And he'll be like, "Well, you might want to use this kind of uh language instead or something, you know, kind of nuance there." I still think the the value of learning the nuances of language is is still important. You know, we went to Korea with a lot of the anthropic team in March and Cloud is actually quite good at Korean. Um, we heard from people on the ground that it's the best of the at the of the models at Korean, but even so, they said it still sounds like a really cool Korean that like grew up in LA and then like moved back. And I was like, that's nuance. Like, I'm not sure

美国范儿。

American vibes.

是的。那么，我们如何继续推动这一点呢？但你知道，我们肯定正在达到那个愿景，就像你可以在一个国家，然后你知道，与……互动——

Yeah. So, how do we like uh continue to push that as well? But you know we're definitely getting to the point where that sort of vision of like you can be in a country and uh you know interact you know that with

是的，AI 在某个时候会变得自然，然后你觉得会有一种可穿戴设备，我们戴着它，它替你互动、替你听，然后——

yeah AI is going to become natural at some point and then do you think there's going to be a wearable that we're wearing and it just interacts for you listens for you and

我觉得会，尽管也有无技术互动的价值，所以我认为那种吸引力永远存在：我实际上学会了这门语言，我要去和某人在一起，完全临在，而不是感觉我们被技术中介了。

I think so although there's also the value of having like technologyfree interactions and so there's I think always still going to be that the appeal of right I actually learned this language I'm going to go and be with somebody in full presence rather than feel like we're being intermediated. by technology.

呃，你有什么仪式吗？呃，有什么坚决不做的事吗？因为你是父亲、是丈夫，但也是这家大公司的 CPO。你能谈谈你的日常生活吗？

Uh do you have any rituals? Uh any hard nos because you're a dad, you're a husband, but you're also a CPO at this huge company. Can you talk about your day-to-day?

是的，我确实专注于那些锚定我一天的例行公事。嗯，你知道，很长一段时间我抗拒成为早起的人，但现在我意识到我就像——

Yeah, I really focus on you know the routines that kind of anchor my day are um you know for a long time I resisted being a morning person, but now I've just realized I'm like

在美国你必须这样。到处都是凌晨 4 点起床的人。

in the US you have to. It's like 4 4 a.m. people everywhere.

是的。孩子们，你知道，他们 8 点要开始上学。所以你得起早。但我们一起吃早餐，我们起得足够早，实际上有时间专门吃早餐，这最终成了一个非常棒的早晨仪式。有时我们也会和孩子们一起吃更长的晚餐，比如聊聊一天的事情。但那些更不可预测。有时他们筋疲力尽，只想熬过去然后上床睡觉。所以早餐是一个更可靠的机会来设定意图和思考一天。所以我们总是锚定在那上面，然后我们每晚给他们读书。看着这个演变很有趣，从读非常简单的纸板书，到拿起这些故事，然后现在我们的六岁孩子可以开始给四岁孩子读书了，这也非常可爱。

Yeah. And the kids, you know, that they're going to start school at 8:00. then you got to get up early. But we have breakfast together and we wake up early enough where we actually have time to dedicate to breakfast and that ends up being like this really great morning ritual and sometimes we'll also do, you know, like longer dinners with the kids and like get to download the day. But those are more unpredictable. Sometimes they're exhausted and they just want to get through it and go into, you know, bedtime. So breakfast is a more reliable kind of opportunity to kind of set intentions and think about the day. So we'll we'll always we'll always kind of anchor on that and then we read to them every night. And that's been fun to see the evolution from, you know, you're reading your very simple board books to now picking up these stories and then and then now our six-year-old can sort of start reading to our four-year-old, which is also very cute.

哦，那是最好的。他们能自己照顾自己了。

Oh, that's the best. They can take care of themselves.

是的，差不多是这样。所以我认为那些开始和结束的锚点真的很有价值。所以无论如何，你知道，即使之后我不得不重新拾起我正在做的某个项目，真正停下来花时间，锚定一天的两端，这都很棒。

Yeah, it's kind of that. So I think like those that that start and the start and finish anchors are really valuable. So like no matter what, you know, even if later I'm going to have to pick back some project that I'm doing, like really stopping and spending that time and like anchoring either side of the day has been great.

旅行方面呢？你经常旅行吗？还是——

Anything around travel? Do you have to travel a lot or

我尝试过的旅行方面的事情？有一个比较新的事情，甚至没怎么用 AI，但我今年发现了 Time Shifter，它真是最大的改变者。是的，就是倒时差的东西。嗯，当我们在 Vivate 见面时，我用了那个应用，你知道，在旅行中，团队其他人会笑我，因为我说：“好了，大家，别喝咖啡了。现在是下午 3 点，开始吃这个，吃褪黑素。”但它真的有效。所以现在我真的是那种东西的信徒。

the travel pieces I've tried to do? One uh that was a newer thing and it's not even using very much AI, but I discovered time shifter this year and it's been like the biggest changer. Yeah, it's like the jet lag thing. And uh when we were in Vivate actually where we met, I used that app going, you know, into that trip and it would, you know, the rest of the team would laugh at me because I was like, "All right, everybody, stop drinking coffee. It's, you know, 3:00 in the afternoon and, you know, start taking this, take melatonin, but it really worked." So now I'm like a real uh believer in in that kind of uh piece.

最后几个问题。你有没有在夜里醒来，想：“天哪，世界在 AI 的带领下走向何方？”因为你看到所有头条新闻，对吧，所有正在发生的事情。你是乐观还是悲观？

Couple of final questions. Do you ever wake up at night and think like, "Oh my god, where the world is going with AI?" like because you see all the headlines, right, and all the things happening. Are you optimistic or pessimistic?

我总体上乐观，但我也，嗯，也许是谨慎的乐观，或者像那样，嗯，如果你相信你实际上可以帮助引导事情走向好的结果，那就是乐观。所以，从 Artifact 经历中走出来，我想做的最重要的事情之一，就是我知道我想去前沿模型实验室工作。

I'm generally optimistic, but I'm also um maybe a cautious optimism or like that um it's optimism if you believe you can actually uh help steer things towards a good outcome. So, one of the biggest things I want to do coming out of the artifact experience, I knew I wanted to go work at a frontier model lab.

我当时觉得那是我未来几年能产生最大影响的方式，但我真的很想去一个与创始团队和公司关于 Scaling（规模扩张）的核心伦理观高度一致的地方。这不只是尽可能构建最强大的 AI，还要投入精力去理解这些模型如何运作、我们如何控制它们，以及如何负责任地扩展它们。在 Anthropic 内外，有很多讨论认为这可能对人类非常有益，但也可能变得相当糟糕。会有经济影响、劳动力影响，还有我们尚不了解的模型。所以我想去一个地方，在那里我们也在提出并研究这些问题，而不只是单纯地“把模型做得更好”。

I thought that was the maximum impact I was going to have in the next few years, but I really wanted to be somewhere where I felt aligned with the founding team and the core ethics of the company around how they thought about scaling AI. It's not just about building the most powerful AI you possibly can; it's also dedicating effort to understanding how these models work, how we can control them, and how we can responsibly scale them. Inside Anthropic and outside, there are a lot of conversations about how this could be really positive for humanity, but it could also go quite badly. There will be economic impacts, labor impacts, and models we don't understand yet. So I wanted to be somewhere where we were also asking and working on those questions alongside the more purely 'let's just make the models really good' approach.

那么，你认为我们会在某个阶段实现全民基本收入吗？像 Anthropic 这样的公司会赞助它吗？

So, do you think we're going to have universal basic income at some stage? And would companies like Anthropic sponsor it?

是的，我认为我们如何帮助社会应对这个问题非常开放。我们还要解决的一个重大开放问题是，在不是每个人都必须工作的世界里，人们从哪里获得意义？意义和挑战的来源是什么？是找到让人们保持参与的方式吗？还是很多人会创业？正如你提到的，不是每个人都有那种驱动力。那么对于这些人来说，他们找到的社区是什么？他们找到的超越那一点的个人挑战是什么，能保留那种意义？

Yeah, I think how we help society navigate is very much an open question. The big open question we'll also have to tackle is where do people draw meaning from in a place where not everybody has to work anymore? What is the source of both meaning and challenges? Is it finding ways in which people stay engaged? Is it that a lot of people will be entrepreneurial? As you mentioned, not everybody is going to have that kind of drive. So for those folks, what is the community that they find? What is their personal challenge that they find beyond that retains that meaning?

你怎么看？

What do you think?

我认为体育是一个有趣的例子，我们从一个完全虚构的环境中汲取了很多意义和高风险。不是所有事情都应该像体育一样，但无论是谁对城市或社区贡献最大，谁掌握了某件事，甚至是艺术追求，比如深入艺术或音乐，我在这些领域找到了灵感。也许更多人会从这类追求中获得意义，其中的衡量标准不一定是赚了多少钱或你的公司是否在排行榜上名列前茅，而是你有一个个人目标在努力实现。

I think I look to sports as an interesting example where we draw a lot of meaning and high stakes from an environment that is actually completely fabricated. Not everything should be exactly like sports, but whether it's who's contributing the most to their city or community, or who's mastered a particular thing, or even artistic pursuits like getting really into art or music, I find inspiration in those fields. Maybe more people will draw meaning from those kinds of pursuits where the yardstick is not necessarily how much money you made or whether your company is at the top of the leaderboard, but more around having a personal yardstick that you're working towards.

那样的爱好听起来像是梦想中的生活，对吧？你可以专注于爱好，基本需求都得到满足。

A hobby like that sounds like a dream life, right? When you can just focus on your hobby and have all the basics.

而且如果其中有足够的挑战或意义，仍然很重要。

And if there's enough challenge or meaning in there to still matter.

是的。

Yeah.

你最喜欢的三个 AI 应用是什么？

What are your top three favorite AI apps?

这是个好问题。当然，Claude Code。我花了很多时间在 Claude Code 里编码。另一个我用了很久的有趣应用是记录我的饮食、宏量营养素和蛋白质。以前总是很麻烦，你得估算份量。我觉得多年的计算机视觉研究完全被 LLM 取代了。所以我一直在用一个 AI 驱动的饮食记录应用，它做得非常好——你只需拍张照片，然后回到你的生活。

That's a good question. Of course, Claude Code. I spend a lot of time coding in Claude Code. One interesting one I've been using for a long time is logging my meals, macros, and protein. It's always such a huge annoyance where you have to estimate portion sizes. All these years of computer vision research, I think, just got completely taken over by feeding them into an LLM. So I've been using an AI-powered meal tracking app that does such a good job—you just take a photo and go back to your life.

它记录了你所有的蛋白质等等。

It has all your proteins and everything.

而且它很棒。它能估算份量等等。我喜欢的是，它是一项有望让我更健康的科技，同时也帮助我保持专注——我不需要额外花五分钟在手机上找东西。我可以拍张照片，继续前进，然后从那里开始。最后但同样重要的是，我也喜欢任何与学习相关的东西，比如 AI 驱动的学习。我一直喜欢看我的孩子们用 Duolingo ABC 学习字母，也看他们在语言学习上的进展。任何引入 AI 驱动的对话式体验的东西——在 Claude 中，我们最近推出了学习模式，不仅给人们答案，还帮助他们理解和学习，并从中迭代。

And it's amazing. It estimates portion sizes and such. What I love is it's a technology that hopefully makes me healthier, but also helps me stay present—I'm not spending extra five minutes on my phone finding the thing. I can just take a photo, move on, and go from there. Last but not least, I also like anything that has to do with learning, like AI-powered learning. I've been enjoying my kids using Duolingo ABC to learn the alphabet, and also seeing what they're doing for advancing language learning. Anything that brings in that AI-powered conversational piece—within Claude, we launched learning mode recently to not just give people answers but help them understand and learn and iterate from there.

非常感谢，Michael。非常鼓舞人心。谢谢。

Thank you so much, Michael. Very inspiring. Thank you.