梅丽莎·塔克马克谈为现实世界基本服务构建 AI

今天我们的节目请到了 Melissa Takmack。Melissa 是 Netic 的创始人兼 CEO，Netic 为 HVAC、宠物护理、屋顶维修等各种现实世界服务构建 AI。在创立 Netic 之前，Melissa 曾担任工程总监，负责 Scale.AI 的市场推广等多个方面，并且也有在 Meta 的工作经验。欢迎来到 No Prize，Melissa。

Today in our prior we're joined by Melissa Takmack. Melissa is the founder and CEO of Netic, a company that builds AI for different real world services like HVAC, pet care, a variety of other things like that, roofers. Prior to Netic, Melissa was a director of engineering and worked on various aspects of go to market for scale.AI and also has experiences for meta. Welcome to No Prize, Melissa.

谢谢你们的邀请。

Thank you for having me.

好的，也许我们可以先聊聊你的业务和你在构建的东西，因为我觉得你在现实世界中做的事情非常有趣，你是在将 AI 映射到现实世界。那么，能跟我们多介绍一下你的公司和 Netic，以及你关注的重点吗？

Yeah, maybe we can start off by talking a little bit about your business and what you're building cuz I think that um you're doing something really interesting in the real world and you're kind of mirroring AI in the real world. So could you tell us more about your company and Netic and you know what you're focused on?

是的，Netic 构建 AI 来运营数百万家维持世界运转的现实世界企业。这意味着我们主要与提供基本服务的大型企业合作。我们从基本服务领域起步。

Yeah, Ned builds AI to run millions of real world businesses that keep the world running. That means basically we work with large enterprises in essential services. We started in essential services.

能举个例子说明什么是基本服务吗？

What would be an example of essential service?

想象一下，收入达十亿美元的家庭服务公司，涉及 HVAC、管道、电力，或者消费者健康公司，比如你可以成为会员，去参加各种运动或活动，还有酒店、汽车、宠物服务等等。所以，你生活中需要的一切或想做的事情都是很好的例子，而且很多这样的企业实际上规模相当大，它们自己通常与数百万最终用户互动，这些用户可能是消费者，也可能是企业本身。Netic 就存在于公司和客户之间。所以，从理解客户的需求或愿望，到将其与业务运营规则匹配，再到部署服务或劳动力，所有这一切都发生在 Netic 上。

Imagine a billion dollar revenue home services companies in HVAC, plumbing, electric or consumer wellness companies like where you can become a member and really go do a lot of sports or different activities, hospitality, automotive, pet services across the board. So every single thing that you need to run your life or that you want to do are a good example and a lot of these businesses are actually quite large businesses and they interact with millions of end users themselves usually that are consumers or businesses themselves. So netic exists between the company and its customers. So every single thing to understand the customer need or want and match that with how can we even help that customer with the operational rules of the business and even deploy the services or the labor all happens on netic.

那么基本上，比如说一个客户打电话给 HVAC 供应商，会发生什么，或者 Netic 为他们做什么？

So basically um say a customer calls an HVAC provider what what happens or what is netic doing for them?

是的。想象一下，你在一个偏远的地方，气温零下 20 度，暖气坏了。所以你首先找到一个供应商，而供应商有很多。你想选择最值得信赖的，而且能尽快到达的，因为你在零下 20 度的天气里。也许你有孩子或老人，或者什么东西坏了。从那里，一旦你找到一家公司，通常你可以通过聚合平台、搜索引擎，或者现在的 LLM 找到它们，然后你可以通过任何你想要的方式联系这家公司。如果他们使用 Netic，你可以打电话、发短信，或者去他们的网站。是 Netic 的智能体在与客户对话。你住在什么样的房子？我们有你的记录吗？

Yeah. So imagine that you are in the middle of nowhere. It's -20° and your heat stops working. So you first find right a provider and there are many providers. You want to pick the most trustworthy one and the one that you can get to because you're in a minus 20° weather. Maybe you have a kid or an elderly or something is not working. From there once you find a business and usually you can find these from aggregators or by search engines or in now LLMs and you can reach out to the company from any medium you want. If they're using netic, you can call them or text them or find like go to their website to channel 9uler. It's netic agents that talk to the customer. What kind of home do you live in? Do we have any of your records?

我明白了。所以，这可能是语音通话，而 Netic 实际上提供了语音。

I see. So, this could be like a voice call and Netic is actually providing the voice.

完全正确。

Completely.

然后推理过程是，嘿，这个人需要帮助，我们应该派人去修理他们的暖气。

And then the reasoning around, hey, this person needs some help and we should deploy somebody out to fix their H.

完全正确。实际上，我们合作的很多企业，这就是我们从基本服务开始的原因。运营需求非常复杂。这不像“哦，Eli 的暖气坏了，然后 Melissa 就去”那么简单。实际上，你甚至有什么样的设备？你有什么样的需求？我们能来找你吗？是需要今天还是明天来找你？你作为客户的终身价值是多少？所以，我们是否应该派遣最好的技术人员，比如只能修锅炉或新式系统的人，今天还是以后去？所以，首先要理解客户的需求，这家公司能否提供服务，如果能，派谁去，什么时候去，并确保这一切都经过优化，以提升客户满意度，为公司创造更多收入，这实际上非常复杂。

Exactly. And it's actually a lot of the businesses we work with, this is why we started with essential services. The operational needs are very complex. It's not as simple as oh Eli's heat broke and now Melissa goes is it that actually what kind of even units do you have? What kind of needs do you have? Can we come to you? Is it something that we need to come to you today or tomorrow? What is your lifetime value as a customer? So should we be deploying the best person who can only work on let's say boilers or new age systems today or later? So it's actually quite complex to first of understand what is the need from the customer can this company service it if so who when and to ensure that it is all optimized to in create customer delight to generate more revenue for the company right

有道理。那么，你们所做的这种事情的现有版本是什么样的，或者市场上的其他参与者是谁，或者人们应该如何看待你们所取代的东西？

that makes sense what what what is a sort of like incumbent version of you know what you're doing or what are what are other players in the market or how should people think about you know what this replaces.

那么，让我们回顾一下，现在人们是怎么做的？显然，我们是一家成立两年的公司。所以，在我们之前，他们是怎么做的？主要是靠人。这些公司规模非常大，而且实际上，它们无法增长，因为它们必须不断投资于人，才能考虑任何形式的增长，而且它们是 EBITDA 业务。很多时候，它们实际上由私募股权拥有。他们需要关心自己的利润率，以及他们赚到的钱，以便能够再投资于业务。业务中最重要的劳动力实际上是那些将要完成工作的人，对吧？你想把每一件事都集中在让最终客户满意上，因为很多这样的业务也是商品化的。如果你不接我的电话，我就会去下一个，Google 上的下一个搜索结果，或者现在 ChatGPT 上的下一个结果。所以，能够将你的钱投资于你的劳动力，即蓝领劳动力，是非常重要的。所以，直到现在，这些公司里有成百上千的人试图随时支持客户。支持这些工作流程的团队也不可靠。让我们看看这家收入达十亿美元的公司的日常生活。你可能会出现。业务通常在凌晨 4 点或 5 点开始。公司里实际上没有人。然后，也许你的技术人员在早上 6 点开始工作。但在那之前，公司里没有人。你可能作为经理进来，但至少有 3 个人在那天或那天辞职，或者 5 个人没来。所以，所有这些客户从早上 6 点开始涌入，因为现在全国正处于热浪中。实际上，就在上周，我们创下了创纪录的热浪。作为企业，你该怎么办？很多这样的企业都是周期性的。在冬天、夏天、假日季节、人们开始锻炼的季节，这非常重要，对吧？所以，你必须确保在这些月份里获得大量价值，才能维持自己和员工的生计。

So let's let's go back how how do people do this today? Obviously it's we are a two-year-old company. So before before us too, how were they doing that? So it's primarily with people. These companies are extremely large and if anything actually they can't grow because they have to keep investing in people to think of any kind of growth and for them they're eBida businesses. Many times they're actually owned by private equity. They need to care about their margins and what they make to be able to invest back in the business. The most important labor in the business is actually the people who are going to deliver the job, right? You want to focus every single thing to make your end customer happy because a lot of these businesses are also commodities. If you do not answer me, I'm going to go to the next one, next search result on Google, next result on like now charg. So it's very important to be able to invest your money into your labor, the bluecollar labor. So until now it was with hundreds and hundreds of people in these companies trying to figure out how to support customers at all times. The teams that support these workflows in the companies are unreliable as well. Let's look at a day in a life with this company that makes a billion dollar revenue. You might show up. The business usually start at 4:00 or 5 am. You don't really have anybody in the company. Then even maybe your technicians start at 6:00 a.m. But before then, no one is in the company. You might come in as a manager, but there are at least three people that quit that way or that day or five didn't show up. So all these customers are piling in starting at 6:00 a.m. because now it's a heat wave in the country. Actually, this past week, we have hit record waves uh last week in the country. What do you do as a business? So many of these businesses are cyclical businesses. It's very important in winter, summer, holiday season, season people start working out, right? So you have to make sure that you're capturing a lot of your value in those months to be able to sustain yourself and your employees

因为你们提供智能体来处理溢出。所以，如果有人给你们打很多电话，他们可以帮你们接听电话。

because you're providing like agents taking overflow. So somebody's giving you a lot of phone calls, they can pick up the phone calls for you.

是的。很多客户就是这样开始的。但今天，实际上超过 70% 的客户是 AI 优先的。我们称之为 Netic 优先。他们采用 N1。而且超过 70% 的客户，他们与公司的第一次互动实际上是与 Netic 智能体进行的。

Yeah. Over that is many customers how they started. But today actually over 70% of our customers are AI first. We call it netic first. They go N1. And over 70% actually all of their customers first interaction with the company is with NetIC agents.

所以，对于这样的市场，有几种不同的方法可以采取。显然，我很高兴能成为 Netic 的投资者。我还投资了 AI 整合，比如像 Long Lake 这样的公司会去收购一堆企业，然后用 AI 优化它们。在某些情况下，这些企业与你的客户群有重叠。而且你提到，其中很多已经被私募股权拥有。

So there's a few different approaches you can do for markets like this. And so um obviously I'm excited to be an investor in Netic. I've also invested in AI roll-ups where people will uh you know a company like Long Lake will go and buy a bunch of businesses and then optimize them with AI. And in some cases, these businesses overlap in the profile with your customer set. And you mentioned many of them are owned by private equity already.

你是如何决定构建这项服务，而不是做整合收购或直接购买并运营资产？这些方式之间的权衡是怎样的？

How did you make the decision to build this service versus just doing a rollup or buying and running the assets, or the trade-offs in terms of those approaches?

我认为有三个原因。第一，我想在这个世界上构建什么，以及我的技能组合和规模。在创建这家公司之前，我在 Scale 工作了大约四年，我为他们构建了许多面向真实世界的业务，从政府到大型企业。

I think three reasons. One, what I want to build in the world, skill set and scale. Before building this, I was at Scale for about four years and I built a lot of their real-world businesses, from government to large enterprises.

顺便说一下，Scale 对于正在观看或收听的人来说，最初是一家数据标注公司。最终它与 Meta 达成了某种许可或协议，Meta 支付了，我记得是 280 亿美元。

And Scale, by the way, for folks who are watching or listening, was started off as a data labeling company. It ended up eventually having some sort of licensing or agreement with Meta, where Meta paid, I think it was $28 billion.

是的，差不多，大概 300 亿左右。那可是真金白银。

Yeah, ish, a little around 30. So real money.

所以你在 Scale 是非常早期且重要的人物，就你所从事的不同业务种类而言，我认为是这样。然后你决定在那件事发生之前离开，实际上，去创办这家公司。

And so you were a very early and important person at Scale, I think, in terms of the variety of the different businesses you worked on, and then you decided to leave before that happened, actually, to start this business.

是的，对我来说有两件事非常重要。Scale 让我对真实世界的业务有了更多了解。我的许多业务部门——给你一个概念——我在 Scale 建立了政府业务部门，以及物流、制造、金融服务、医疗保健等领域的大型企业，全面覆盖。我认为你能在世界上产生的实际影响是不可思议的。这是你真正获得的成就感。在科技行业，我们一直在谈论这种成就感，但通常不会降临到很多人身上。但我热爱做这件事。

Yeah, for me there were two things really important. Scale showed me a lot more about the real-world businesses. A lot of my business units—to give you a sense—I built at Scale the government business unit and large enterprises in logistics, manufacturing, financial services, healthcare, across the board. And I think the tangible impact you can make in the world is incredible. It is the fulfillment you actually get. In tech, we keep talking about this fulfillment that doesn't usually come to many people. But I love doing that.

我的背景——我在土耳其的一个非常小的城镇长大。我一无所有地长大，实际上只是为了上大学才来到这里。当我获得斯坦福的全额奖学金时，我之前甚至没有电脑。而我家乡的所有人实际上都从事这类行业。所以对我来说，我们所有人都来到这里，谈论科技，谈论创造影响，但大多数公司实际上只服务其他初创公司或科技公司。所以对我来说这非常重要。我们为真实世界构建什么？

My background—I grew up in a very small town in Turkey. I grew up with nothing and really came here only for college. When I got a full scholarship to Stanford, I didn't even own a computer before. And all of my town is actually in these type of industries. So to me, all of us come here and we talk about tech, we talk about creating impact, but the majority of the companies only really serve other startups or tech companies. So to me that was very important. What are we building for the real world?

我将其与一个技术追求结合起来，那是一个自私的追求，即 AI 擅长辅助消费者或作为副驾驶。但下一个最未解决的问题是，我们如何在关键任务工作流中使用 AI？拥有完全自主执行的系统会是什么样子？所以 Netic 对我来说确实是这两者的结合。

And I combined that with a technical pursuit, which was a selfish pursuit, is that AI is good at assisting consumers or being a co-pilot. But the next most unsolved problem is how are we using AI in mission-critical workflows? What does that look like to have fully autonomously executing systems? So Netic came out of really combining these two for me.

最后，我喜欢在 Scale 工作。我认为我非常适合那里的文化，我热爱我的团队。我一些最好的朋友实际上来自那里。显然，Alex 作为创始人直接共事是非常棒的。但对我来说，它并不缺少产品，对吧？产品是什么？因为为 AI 构建基础设施是一项运营繁重的业务，即使人们不想谈论它。它很有回报，但对我来说缺少产品优势。所以我知道我想构建一个能够扩展和复利的产品。

And at the end, I loved being at Scale. I was a very good culture fit, I think, and I loved my team. Some of my best friends actually are from there. Obviously Alex was amazing person to work with directly as a founder. But to me, it wasn't missing the product, right? What is the product? Because it is an operationally heavy business to build the infrastructure for AI, even though people don't want to talk about it. And it was rewarding, but missing that product edge for me. So I knew I wanted to build a product that can scale and compound.

第二，个人技能组合。我认为在许多整合收购中，最重要的是并购本身。我不是并购型的人。我是建设者。我是工程师。我是产品人。这不符合我的技能组合，我不想建立一个显然我能提供的不是最重要东西的业务。

And two, personal skill set. I think in a lot of those rollups, the main important thing is the M&A itself. I'm not an M&A person. I'm a builder. I am an engineer. I'm a product person. It just doesn't fit my skill set, and I don't want to build a business where clearly what I can provide is not the most important thing.

第三，我认为是产品的规模。我所看到的，有很多成功的整合收购和技术驱动的整合收购，但最终，你构建的所有产品都是为你刚收购的公司服务的。它不能真正应用于任何其他公司。所以你承诺购买你感兴趣的任何行业中的这几家公司，并用你的产品服务它们。而我感兴趣的是，每个真实世界的业务如何能在 Netic 上运行。如果我们不必限制它们，如果它们能专注于该业务中擅长的部分——即劳动力、差异化、服务质量——Netic 如何运行其余部分？

And I think third is the scale of the product too. What I have seen, there's a lot of successful rollups and tech-enabled rollups, but at the end, all the products you're building are for the company you just bought. It can't really be applied to any other company. So you are committing to buying these few companies in whatever industries that you are interested in and serving those with your products. Versus what I'm interested in is how every real-world business can run on Netic. If we didn't have to limit them, if they could focus on what they are good at in that business—which is the labor, which is the differentiation, quality of the service—how could Netic run the rest?

那么，当人们谈论面向真实世界的 AI 时，他们指的是两三件事，对吧？显然，你在 Netic 所做的，服务这些企业，你知道，去为人们在家中或宠物或生活不同方面实施不同的服务。有人谈论机器人、自动驾驶。你认为所有这些事情会随着时间融合吗？你认为那个时间线非常遥远，并且在这些其他类型的事情方面不太重要吗？

How do so—when people talk about AI for the real world, they mean two or three things, right? So obviously there's what you're doing at Netic, serving these businesses that you know, go and implement different services for people in their homes or their pets or different aspects of their life. There's people who talk about robotics, self-driving. Do you think all these things converge over time? Do you think the timeline of that is very far in the future and doesn't kind of matter in terms of these other types of things?

是的，这几乎就像你在看同一本书，但可能是不同的章节。我们现在谈论的更多是未来几十年的章节。我确实相信未来会有一个章节，完全是关于机器人的。但在我所从事的一些行业中，那在相当遥远的未来。

Yeah, it's almost you're looking at the same book maybe but different chapters. We're talking about much more now chapters and for the next few decades. I do believe that there's a chapter in the future. It is all about robotics. But in some of the industries that I'm working with, that is quite far in the future.

我总是说，你知道，如果你花几天时间与这些企业相处——这对我们非常重要，比如你知道，我必须告诉你我是如何了解这些行业的——我们公司的每一位工程师都必须去现场拜访客户，以便在旧金山总部构建正确的产品。如果你环顾四周，如果我们看窗外，看看每一栋建筑。如果机器人要做我们今天与这些公司所做的事情，那么每一栋这样的建筑都需要要么是 3D 打印的

And I always say, you know, if you spend a few days with these businesses—which is very important for us, like you know, I have to tell you about how I learned about these industries—every single engineer in our company does have to go visit customers on site to build the right product back home in San Francisco. And if you look around, if we look outside of a window, look at every single building. If robotics is going to do what we're doing with these companies today, every single of those buildings need to be either 3D printed

或者完全标准化。

Or completely standardized.

我不认为那会发生。

I don't see that happening.

那只是因为你认为机器人将能够应对不同的变化或多样性，在……方面

And that's just because you just think robotics will be able to navigate the different variation or variety in terms of

我认为如果你看看今天的机器人能力，在灵巧性方面还相当遥远，比如如何处理不同类型的螺丝，甚至是什么样的房屋——我如何上去，我如何进入狭小的区域去修理东西？很多时候并不清楚；你必须打开整面墙才能看到需要修理什么以及如何修理。

I think if you look at robotics capabilities today, it is quite far in terms of dexterity on how to be able to handle different types of screws, even what type of homes are—how am I going up, how am I going into the tiny areas to be able to fix something? Many times it's not clear; you have to open up the whole walls to even see what do you need to fix and how.

除此之外，在这些行业中，也有很多人的因素，因为当很多人与这些行业打交道时，那是他们生命中最糟糕的一天，对吧？要么是他们的家被水淹了，要么是他们想休息一天，减轻压力，去湾俱乐部打网球，对吧？但无论是什么，他们实际上正在经历一些事情，而且有人的因素。我确实认为机器人要更接近我们的章节还需要相当长的时间。

On top of that, in these industries, there's a lot of the human element too, because when a lot of people are dealing with these industries, it is the worst day of their lives, right? It's either their home is flooded or they want to take the day and reduce stress and go play some tennis at Bay Club, right? But whatever it is, they're actually going through something, and there's a human element. I do think there's quite a bit of a while for robotics to be closer in our chapter.

然后我有点听你谈论过大型实验室，比如 OpenAI、Anthropic，也许还有 Google、Meta 等。你认为他们将如何处理行业，或者你认为你所做的与他们能做的有什么不同？

And then I've kind of heard you talk about the big labs, so OpenAI, Anthropic, maybe Google, Meta, etc. How do you think they'll process industry, or how do you think what you're doing is different from what they can do?

换个方式问，也许实验室能做这个吗？

Different way of asking that, maybe can labs do this?

嗯。

Mhm.

嗯，我认为这是个公平的问题，因为当今世界有很多初创公司确实构建了在功能和视觉上与实验室关键产品非常相似的东西，对吧？要么是聊天机器人，要么是编码智能体。

Um, I think that's a fair question, because there's a lot of startups in today's world that do build things functionally and visually very similar to the labs' key products, right? It's either a chatbot or a coding agent.

我听到这个问题其实有点想笑，因为我觉得 10 年前同样的问题就是“谷歌能做这个吗？”，现在变成了“实验室能做这个吗？”。当然，有些核心能力他们能做，但有些其他事情他们并没有在投入。就 Netic 而言，我不认为他们是竞争威胁。实际上，我觉得这两家领先的实验室是了不起的企业，也是像我们这样的公司的优秀合作伙伴。所以我真的很尊重他们。但就我们为这些行业和公司提供的东西来说，我认为有两件事非常重要。一是专注于你正在构建的东西。对这类企业来说，这个问题其实有点好笑，对吧？OpenAI 构建产品很快，但淘汰产品也很快。所以我不认为企业，至少这些行业的企业，在追求那种快速。就 Anthropic 的情况而言，硅谷一致认为他们在编码智能体或 Claude 上领先是因为专注。但你在企业案例中看到完全相反的情况——有大约 20 个产品。到底发生了什么？我并不这么看。一个更元层面的问题可能是关于实验室，特别是那些真正关心以最通用方式解决问题的研究人员。所以在这种情况下，看看我们正在解决的问题，答案会是：当我们实现 AGI 时，我们会问如何为基本服务解决它。而我认为这在操作上和智力上都有点懒惰。最后，要解决这些极其困难的问题，涉及国内数百万有着完全不同担忧和口音的人，他们想如何参与不同的语境，甚至再次参与让他们成为多次客户？有很多最后一英里工作你必须做，这不仅仅来自模型——它必须来自你的工具链和编排、你必须在上面构建的软件和产品。所以如果要说的话，像我们和 Netic 这样的公司必须在所有三个层面都做好。

I do chuckle at the question a little bit, because I think 10 years ago that same exact question was, can Google do this? And now it became, can labs do this? Sure, some of the core competencies they can do, but some of the other things they're not investing in. For Netic's case, I don't see them as a competitive risk. Actually, I think the two leading labs are amazing businesses and great partners to companies like us. So I really respect that. But in terms of what we provide to these industries and companies, I think two things are very important. One is focus in what you're building. It would be a funny question to these enterprises, right? OpenAI builds amazing products really fast, but also kills them really fast. So I don't think enterprises, at least in these industries, are looking for that. In Anthropic's case, Silicon Valley converged on the idea that they pulled ahead in coding agents or Claude because they had focus. But you see the opposite in the enterprise case—there are like 20 products. What is really happening? And I don't really see that. A meta-focused question might be about the labs and specifically researchers who really care about solving the problem in the most generalizable way. So in this case, looking at the problem we're solving, the answer would be, well, when we get AGI, we'll ask how to solve it for essential services. And I think that is both operationally and intellectually a bit lazy thinking. Finally, to solve these extremely difficult problems with millions in the country who have completely different worries and accents, how do they want to engage different contexts and even engage them again to make them multi-time customers? There's quite a bit of last mile that you really have to do that doesn't only come from models—it has to come from your harnesses and orchestration, the software and the product that you have to build on top. So if anything, companies like us and Netic have to be good at all three layers.

是的，有道理。我注意到一件事，这算是对你所说内容的补充评论，那就是我看到的从四年前到现在的一个重大转变。四年前我在投资 Harvey 和 Perplexity 这类公司，稍后又投了 Decagon 和 Bridge，还有很多垂直应用，显然包括 Netic。我觉得现在很多创始人几乎有点过于担心实验室了，所以他们不进入新的垂直领域，或者避开他们认为在实验室路线图上的东西。而在传统时代，人们会更拼一些。所以我觉得这有点令人惊讶。

Yeah, that makes sense. One thing I've noticed, which is more of a side comment on what you're saying, is that one big shift I see from four years ago to now. Four years ago I was funding things like Harvey and Perplexity, and a little later Decagon and a Bridge, and a lot of the vertical applications, obviously Netic. And I feel like a lot of founders now are almost a little bit too worried about the labs, and so they're not entering new verticals or staying away from things they think are in the lab's roadmap. Whereas in traditional times, people would have fought it out a bit more. So I think that's a little bit surprising.

是的，我确实认为这是因为目前有很多构建工作都聚焦于“我怎么能立刻退出”。

Yeah, I do think that's because there's a lot of building going on currently that's focused on how can I exit immediately.

哦，有意思。

Oh, interesting.

相反，我认为以前做创始人其实更光荣。你知道自己要把一生奉献给它。我给你举个例子：在我创业之前，我其实找过工作。有没有我想构建的东西？我看了第四件我想构建并规模化的事情。还有没有其他我感兴趣的事？之后，有没有我真正想帮助推进使命的人？我认为做创始人是一件非常困难的事，你必须全身心投入几十年。这不是可以掉以轻心的。但人们对此担心太多，因为他们看待它的方式是：哦，我能不能在短时间内退出？然后第二件事是，这也许有点涉及招聘理念。在 Netic 的人深深关心自己正在构建的东西，长期以客户为中心，有主动开始事情的能动性，有解决问题的紧迫感，但同时有严谨和耐心去推进。我特别看到现在的 Z 世代，在我招聘时，他们沉迷于这种永久底层心态：如果我在未来 18 个月内赚不到钱，或者如果我在未来六个月内学不完世界上所有东西，那我就会永远贫穷。或者这是 AGI 的观点：18 个月内，AI 将取代很多人的技能，所以你的价值会下降。

Instead of, I think being a founder was actually a more honorable thing before. You knew you were dedicating your life to it. I'll give you an example: before I built, I actually looked for a job. Is there something I want to build? I looked at the fourth thing I want to build and scale. Is there anything else I'm interested in? And afterwards, is there someone I really want to help further the mission? I think being a founder is a very difficult thing that you have to dedicate your whole life for decades. It is not something to be taken lightly. But people are worried about this too much because they're looking at it like, oh, will I be able to exit in a short time frame? And then the second thing is, maybe this goes into hiring philosophy a little bit. People who are at Netic deeply care about what they are building themselves, are customer-obsessed for the long term, have the agency to start things, urgency to solve problems, but at the same time have the rigor and patience to carry it forward. I see especially Gen Z these days when I'm looking at hiring, obsessed with this permanent underclass mentality: if I don't make my money in the next 18 months, or if I don't learn everything in the world in the next six months, then I am forever poor. Or this is the AGI view: in 18 months, AI will subsume a lot of people's skill sets, and so your value decreases.

我认为这实际上是一种非常危险的心态。事实上，构建真正好的东西需要很长时间。我一生中一些最重要的教训来自于承诺并坚持做某件事，面对所有问题，尤其是在规模上，比如那四年，以及现在创办公司，因为你必须看到的不仅仅是事物的第一个版本。

Which I think is actually a very dangerous mindset. In fact, building really good things takes a very long time. I have learned some of the most important lessons in my life from committing to things and keeping up with them, with all the problems, especially at scale, for example over those four years, and now with building a company, because you have to see not just what's the first version of a thing.

你如何思考它在世界上的作用？你需要改进什么？你如何跟上其他研究？你如何跟上人们？你需要如何改进？我认为我们特别看重这一点。我们真的避免追求光鲜事物的人。最近我读到一句引语，实际上据说是马丁·路德说的。它说，基督徒鞋匠不是通过在鞋上放小十字架来荣耀上帝，而是通过制作最好的鞋来荣耀上帝。

How are you thinking about what it does in the world? What do you have to improve? How do you keep up with other research? How do you keep up with people? How do you need to improve that? I think especially we look for that. We really avoid shiny object seekers. And there's a recently I was reading this quote attributed to Martin Luther actually. It says, you know, the Christian shoemaker doesn't honor God by putting little crosses on the shoes. It does so by building the best shoe.

对吧？最好的鞋。因为上帝在乎工艺。我认为当你作为创始人思考你在构建什么、为什么这样做时，我真的很共鸣。这确实是关于构建最好的产品来解决你关心的人的问题。如果要说的话，你实际上用更少的东西、更多的专注和一小群真正团结起来征服世界的人取得了更多成就。

Right? The best shoes. Because God cares about craftsmanship. And I think I really resonate with that when you think about as a founder, what are you building? Why are you doing this? It really is about building the best product that solves the problems of the people you care about. If anything, you actually achieve more with less, with more focus and with a small group of people that really came together to take down the whole world.

你提到筛选有能动性的人。你如何筛选能动性？比如，你看重什么？是面试问题吗？是经验吗？还是其他什么？

You mentioned selecting for people with agency. How do you screen for agency? Like, what do you look for? Is it an interview question? Is it experiences? Is it something else?

我认为能动性，我看重的，不是现在的能动性。如果你有能动性，你关心能动性，你在生活中持续展现了能动性。所以我真的会深入挖掘。那是怎样的？比如，如果你是应届毕业生，你不需要有工作。你在大学里做了什么？你做了什么才能进入大学？你有没有真正关心的项目？不仅仅是“我周末做了这个”，而是你有没有坚持下去？所以那些真正的例子是什么？我想我确实问了很多次。这只是一个问题。

I think agency, what I look for, is not agency now. If you have agency, you care about agency, you have shown agency continuously in your life. So I will actually dig in. How was it? Like, if you're a new grad, you don't have to have a job. Did you do something in college? Did you do something to be able to get into college? Do you have a project you really care about? And not just that, like I did this for a weekend, but did you keep up with it? So what are really those examples? And I think I do ask many times. It's just one question.

我想了解人们做什么，他们一生中做过的最难的事情是什么，他们可以随意发挥，但这不仅仅是一个问题，我们会深入挖掘背后的原因。

I'd like to know about what people do, what has been the hardest thing they have ever done in life and they can take it anywhere but it's not just one question but we'll really dig in to understand the why.

或者你从某人的生平故事中剖析出这一点，但我最关心的不是举一个能动性的例子，而是无论你活了多久、有了多少意识，你在生活中做的事情是否展现了能动性？你是否坚持下去了？你是否挺过来了？

Or you pull that apart from someone's life story right but the most important thing I care about not to have one agency example is just however long you have been alive and conscious, have you been showing agency in things that you did in life and did you keep up with them? Did you stick through?

所以，你关心的是坚持到底。你开始做某件事，做了大多数人不会做的独特之事，然后你持续做下去。

So, you care about the follow through. You started something, you did something unique that most people don't do and then you kept going on it.

有趣的是，我以前也问过同样的问题：你做过的最难的事情是什么。

It's funny. I used to ask the same question of what's the hardest thing you've ever done.

而我得到的答案太糟糕了，以至于我不再问这个问题。

And I got such bad answers that I stopped asking it.

嗯，我是说，你知道，我不知道你为什么问这个，但你知道，如果你得到糟糕的答案，也许那个人并不是真正的好……

Well, I mean, you know, I don't know why you asked it, but you know, if you get bad answers, you know, maybe that person is not really a good...

嗯，只是持续如此。我的意思是，至少在我关注的招聘人才库中是这样。

Well, it's just consistently. I just mean like the hiring pool that I was at least looking after that.

我确实得到了很好的答案。我认为这些答案非常不同，对吧？有些人会真正敞开心扉，我不是在寻找工作上的答案，它可以是生活中真正最难的事情，有时你会了解到很多人的个人生活，他们经历了一些并非自己选择的事情，但关键在于他们如何反应、如何控制、如何将可控的事情掌握在自己手中并真正改变未来，对吧？有时它也不一定是宏大的事情。我给你举个例子，我们刚雇了一个人，他下周开始上班，他给出了一个答案，这是第一次有人给出这样的答案。他说：我过着非常简单的生活，我非常关心我的工作，我对健康有一套疯狂的计划，并稍微详细说明了他们的意思，对吧？除此之外，我没有太多其他东西，但对我来说最难的事情是我坚持了这个计划很多年，每天如此，比如这个小时起床，做这些事情，晚上每隔一小时做那些事，为同事出现，最难的是坚持了 15 年以上，没有感到厌倦，没有真正想其他事情，而是致力于我所关心的事情。我认为这也是一个非常有创意的答案，对吧？我不是在寻找，嗯，你知道，也许当我给出那个答案时，我的答案更多是关于建立公司，或者关于我如何来自一个非常小的城镇，当时我的父母一无所有，但我不是在寻找那个，每个人的故事都不同。你是如何创造你自己的故事的？对吧。我认为那是一个很棒的答案，我们很高兴有他加入。

I do get really good answers. I think they're very different answers, right? Some will really open up and I'm not looking for a work answer like it can be anything in your life that truly the hardest thing and sometimes you learn a lot about people's personal lives that something they had to go through they didn't choose but it was all about how they reacted what they controlled how did they take something they can control in their hands and actually change the future right and sometimes it's about uh you know it also doesn't have to be this grandio thing I'll give you an example of someone we just hired actually he's starting uh next week and you know he gave this answer this was the first time someone gave an answer like this he said I live a very simple life I deeply care about my work and I have a crazy regimen about how I think about my health and really outlined a little bit what they meant right like outside of that I don't really have a lot but the hardest thing for me has been I kept up with this for x amount of years every single day like waking up this hour doing these things every other hour at night um showing up for my co-workers and the hardest thing has been doing that for over 15 years and without getting bored without really thinking about anything else and committing myself to what I care about and I thought that was also a very creative answer right like I'm not really looking for um you know maybe when I gave that answer like my answer is a lot about building a company or about how I came from a very tiny town when my parents didn't have anything to hear but I'm not looking for that everybody's story is different. How did you make your own story? Right. I thought that was a great answer and we're very happy to have him.

太棒了。你如何看待公司五年后的发展，或者你们所取得的成就、你们正在做的事情的长期愿景是什么？你们的北极星是什么？

That's amazing. How do you think about where you want to be with the company in 5 years or what's your longer term vision for what you folks have accomplished, what you're doing? What's your sort of northstar?

就我们的愿景而言？我们正在构建一个自主企业，对吧？我们希望这些公司中的每一件事都由 Netc 自主处理，除了实际的服务和劳动力本身，即人的部分，这样这些公司就可以完全专注于交付和创造客户愉悦。嗯，这是公司的第一要务。我们构建的每一个产品，在我们智能层之上构建的每一件事，都会与其他产品复合连接，都是为了这个目的。嗯。

In terms of our vision? We are building an autonomous enterprise, right? We want every single thing in these companies to be handled autonomously with Netc except the actual services and the labor itself that human component so that these companies can fully focus on that to deliver and create customer delight. Um that is number one thing with the company. Every single product every single thing that we build on top of our intelligence layer that compounds and connected to the other products is for that purpose. Mhm.

嗯，第二点是，你知道，建立一家公司非常困难，我这样做也是为了愿景，同时也是为了与杰出的人共事。我认为对我来说，随着公司的发展，我深切关心的是我们如何继续只与杰出的人共事，这没有唯一的答案。我认为我所认识并尊重的每一家公司，那些长期思考这些事情的公司，比如想象一下 Palantir、SpaceX 或 Notion，他们真正关心工艺，真正为受众服务多年，都在这个问题上挣扎过。所以对我来说，深入思考并实现这一点在公司中非常重要。

Um second is you know building a company is very hard and I'm also doing that for the vision but also to work with remarkable people. I think for me as the company grows something I deeply care about how do we keep working with only remarkable people and there there's no one answer. I think every single company that I know that I respect um that even thought about these things for the long term like imagine Palantir or SpaceX or Notion who really care about craftsmanship and really delivering for their audience for many many years have struggled with this. So for me um deeply thinking about that and achieving that is very important um in the company.

所以你们服务很多被认为采用技术非常缓慢、或不在前沿、或者需要很长时间才能使用新事物的行业，而你们向他们销售 AI 解决方案和智能体。这有挑战性吗？顺利吗？这种看法正确吗？你如何看待你的客户群，就他们采用新事物或尝试新事物的速度而言？

So you're serving a lot of industries that are perceived as very slow to adopt technology or not at the cutting edge or you know things that take a long time to you know use new things and you're selling AI solutions and agents to them. Has that been challenging? Has that been straightforward? Like is that perception correct? Like how do you think about your customer base in terms of just like the rate at which they'll adopt new things or try new things?

我认为将这些行业视为老派是一个很大的误解。实际上，我遇到的一些最注重技术、以业务为导向的人、业主、创始人，恰恰来自这些行业。所以首先，我们与大型企业合作，他们非常注重价值，而且他们必须具有前瞻性，对吧？例如，让你有个概念，我们成交的一笔业务，可能是 50 万美元的合同，从开始到结束只用了 14 天，这不是因为你知道，我不是魔法药水，公司也不是，或者仅仅 AI 不是，他们对自己必须做的事情非常深思熟虑，并检查价值是否存在，即使在他们的购买行为中也是如此。话虽如此，我认为我对这些行业的看法是，它们既极其原始，又同时具有技术前瞻性。所以如果你考虑一家大型屋顶公司，对吧，实际上他们必须有上门推销员。上门推销员意味着行动，你知道，挨家挨户地走访，思考不同的屋顶，并试图与你谈论为什么你应该考虑新的方式，比如在屋顶上安装太阳能，对吧？但与此同时，今天在 Netc，它是一个产品的组合，从处理所有入站、出站、分析，甚至劳动力的交付。所以我们连接卫星数据，能够思考在不同社区飓风如何影响不同的屋顶。你应该如何考虑不同的材料？这应该自主地输入到我们智能体的上下文中，这样你不仅更有能力处理与客户的对话，而且还能发现该去追谁。

I think it's a big misconception to think about these industries as old school. Um actually some of the most tech-forward business focused people owners founders I have met have been in these industries. So first of all we work with large enterprises so they're extremely value focused and they have to be tech forward right for example to give you a sense you know like just one of the businesses we closed it can be like a half a million contract um and it took from end to end 14 days and it's not because you know there is you know they I'm not a magic potion and the company is not or just AI is not they're very thoughtful about what they have to do and checking if the value is there right even in their buying uh behavior. Uh that being said, I think the way that I think about these industries is that they are extremely primal and tech forward at the same time. So if you think about a large roofing company, right, is actually they have to have door knockers. So door knockers mean act, you know, going neighborhood to neighborhood thinking about different you know roofs and trying to talk to you about why you should think about a new way or like having solar on your roof, right? But at the same time today in Netc it's a compilation of product from hand handling everything inbound outbound analytics and even delivery of their labor. So we connect to satellite data to be able to think about in different neighborhoods how the hurricanes affect different roofs. How should you think about different materials? should that be autonomously fed into the context of our agents so that not only you're better equipped to handle that conversation with the customer but also you can spot who to go after.

所以这些不是——这是他们之前就在用的技术，还是你们为 Netic 平台专门采用的？

So these are not—is this the technology they were using before, or did you adopt it for the Netic platform?

是的，我想是这样。他们一直很关心如何更好地服务客户，但他们得先想清楚怎么做，对吧？我们是从别处获取这些数据，还是由谁来查看，或者我们手动处理？所以现在想象一下，有了一个平台，我不仅能协助处理来自广告的入站流量，同时还能构建关于我服务的社区背景信息，并主动去拓展新的收入来源。现在他们用 Netic 在一个平台上就能轻松做到这些，但之前他们就已经在考虑这些额外的数据，用不同的工具或人工来筛选，然后再派人上门推销。而这只是一个行业，对吧？

Yeah, I think so. They were always interested in how do we serve our customers better, but they had to figure out how to do that, right? Do we get this data somewhere else, or who looks at it, do we look at it manually? So now imagine with one platform, okay, not only am I actually assisting with the inbound that's coming from the ads we have to do, but at the same time I'm building context about the neighborhoods that I have to serve and reaching out to bring net new revenue. So now they can do it very easily in one platform with Netic, but they were already thinking about these additional data and sifting through that with different tools or humans, etc., and then send door knockers before. And that's just one industry, right?

然后我们稍微聊了聊整合收购和私募股权控股。现在想象一下，你是一家私募股权公司，拥有 20 到 30 家不同行业的企业。如果这些企业都在 Netic 上，你能做的就是，比如你要向某人推销健康服务，对吧？我养了一只我爱的狗，如果我要成为健康服务的会员，我其实很希望选一家提供宠物护理的，对吧？所以如果你了解我的这些信息，作为公司所有者，你会怎么考虑跟我谈这件事？这完全关乎背景信息，以及真正理解并轻松地为你的业务做到这一点。

And then we talked a little bit about rollups and being private equity owned. Now imagine being a private equity and you own maybe 20, 30 of these businesses in different industries. So now if those are on Netic, what you can do is, well, if you're going to go after someone for a wellness offering, right? And I have a dog that I love, and if I'm going to be a member in a wellness offering, I would actually very much like to pick the one that has pet care, right? So if you know that about me, and as the owner of the company, how would you think about talking to me about that? That is all about context and really understanding and doing that easily for your business.

你觉得私募股权公司对这股 AI 浪潮的回应如何？我认为观点各异，从真正投入、尝试新事物，到在某些情况下不得不部署公司，他们与 BrainCo 或类似公司合作。另一些情况下，他们行动较慢。你对私募股权与 AI 的互动有什么看法？

How well do you—or how do you view private equity firms as responding to this wave of AI? I think there are varying opinions in terms of everything from people are really leaning in and they're trying new things, and in some cases they're having to deploy companies. They're working with folks like BrainCo or other companies. In other cases they're slower to move on it. What's your perception of how private equity is interacting with AI?

我认为私募股权的打法已经变了。以前是，对吧，我们要找一颗明珠，它有惊人的倍数，然后我们换团队、创造价值，再卖掉。但那些未被发现的明珠已经不存在了。所以我认为总体打法已经转变为如何与我们合作的企业创造实际价值。

I think already the private equity playbook has changed. Before it used to be, right, we're going to find a gem that has an amazing multiple, and we are going to go change the team and create the value and then sell it again. But those gems don't really exist anymore, like undiscovered. So I think generally the playbook has changed to how do we create tangible value with these businesses that we're working with.

你说得对，有些可能投入过多，就像把它当成软件一样什么都试，但你知道，我用的任何 AI 产品，不应该在第一周就那样看待平台。那应该是关系的开始。实际上，你要确保这些结果全年都存在，并且越来越好，而不是越来越差，对吧？所以我认为改变对 AI 的测试方式很重要，从区分空想软件到真正的投资回报率，那怎么做呢？

I think you are right that some are leaning in maybe a bit too much, like without trying everything as if it's software, and you know that any product I use in AI, it's not like the first week that shouldn't be how you look at the platform. It should be the beginning of the relationship. If anything, actually, you want to make sure those results exist throughout the year and keep getting better, and not keep getting worse, right? So I think that's important to change the shift on testing the AI, like separating from vaporware to true ROI, and how do you do that?

我认为很多时候他们可能更偏向软件思维，你知道，确定性的，但为什么我不能在一周内试出来并告诉你呢？但我想很多人确实理解私募股权公司新设的这个角色，就像不同的 AI 运营合伙人，或者他们会有一两个懂 AI 的工程师，也会进行培训。在我们的工作中，你知道，我也在公司里看到，有些事情并不难，就是“我们能做得更好吗？”所以在很多这样的对话中，谈话内容完全围绕他们将获得的价值以及他们现在能实际看到的东西。不是演示。我们会调出实时部署来展示，对吧？因为如果它有效并且我有，为什么不能直接给你看这个客户在赚多少钱？你知道，我们有——你最近问过我的北极星目标——到目前为止，我们已经为客户创造了超过 6 亿美元的收入，这些收入真正来自 AI 处理的互动。展示那个。

I think a lot of them at times can be more software oriented, you know, deterministic, but why can I not try that in a week and tell? But many, I think, do understand with this new role that private equity companies hire, it's like different operating partners in AI, or they'll have a few engineers that might be AI forward, and they'll educate it as well. And in our job, you know, I always see in the company too, something is not hard, is that like what can we do better? So in a lot of these conversations, the conversation is all about the value they're going to get and what they can see tangibly now. It's not demos. We'll pull up and show a live deployment, right? Because if it's working and I have it, why can't I just show you what this customer is making? You know, we have—you asked me about my north star recently—we have made so far, I think over $600 million for our customers that have been really generated from AI-handled interactions. Show that.

它是怎么运作的？真实世界的客户是如何与这项技术互动的？

How does it work? How are real-world customers interacting with this technology?

所以我认为一旦你这样做，他们也会受到教育，并指导他们的公司，但这并没有消除你必须与公司建立直接关系的观念，因为归根结底，私募股权更像是他们所拥有公司的指导者。很少有那种你可以强行塞给公司的关系，但你可以成为好的顾问，告诉公司应该关注什么。

So I think once you do that, they also get educated and they guide their companies, but still it doesn't take away the notion of you have to have a relationship direct to the company, because at the end, private equity is more of a guidance for the companies they own. There's not many times—rel types of relationships—where you can just shove it down the throats of the companies, but you can be a good counselor and you can be a good advisor to the companies on what to check for.

是的，似乎很多私募股权公司也已经从 80 年代那种风格转变了，你知道，进来大规模裁员，拆解企业集团，而更符合你的观点，如何优化价值或增加某物的价值？

Yeah, it seems like a lot of private equity shops as well have kind of shifted from the 80s style, you know, come in do big layoffs, take apart a conglomerate, and much more to your point, how do you optimize value or increase the value of something?

不过我要说，他们的第一次谈话仍然非常关注成本削减，因为我认为他们看不到很多像我们这样的产品或平台。我并不是真的去削减你的成本。当然，这方面也在发生，但我真正感兴趣的是你将如何创造新的净收入。所以这是新的。你必须真正开始这样的对话。你必须向他们展示具体的例子，否则他们仍然专注于如何达到底线和削减成本，对吧？但他们几乎必须拓宽视野，思考 AI 还能做什么，对吧？如果我们只用 AI 来削减成本，那将非常可悲。

I will say though, it's still they are always the first conversations very focused on cost cutting, because I think they don't see a lot of products or platforms like ours. I'm not really there to cut your costs. Sure, that is happening in this way, but I'm really interested in this is how you're going to make net new revenue. So that is new. You have to actually start that conversation. You have to show them tangible examples, because otherwise it still focuses on how do we get to the bottom line and cut some costs, right? But they have to almost expand their horizon on thinking about what else is possible with AI, right? It would be pretty sad if we used AI only for cost cutting.

是的，当然。除了 Netic 正在做的事情之外，你对 AI 的未来最兴奋的是什么？

Yeah, yeah, sure. What do you—outside of what Netic is doing—what are you most excited about in terms of the future in AI?

我对我的个人故事感到非常兴奋。所以，你知道，当我无法接触到任何东西时，在我的时代，也许有帮助的技术是，我会找到一两个从我的高中毕业的人，让他们读我的一些文章或看我的作品并给出反馈，或者通过 Facebook Messenger 联系他们。当他们在美国上大学时，能够和他们交谈，而他们来自土耳其，这太疯狂了。所以我的答案是教育，因为我认为它将改变许多人的生活，否则他们甚至不会想到这个世界存在。所以我个人对此非常兴奋，没有人再会受到限制，你想学的一切和你想做的一切都在你的口袋里，对吧？所以我们让世界变得更加注重自主性，我对此感到兴奋。我迫不及待地想看到这一切展开。

I am really excited a little bit about my personal story. So one of the—you know, when I didn't have access to anything—one of the, in my time, maybe the technology that helped is that I would find one or two people who graduated from my high school to read some of my essays or look at my work and give feedback, or Facebook messenger them. And it was just being able to talk when they were in the US in colleges and they went from Turkey. It was pretty crazy. So I will give the answer of education, because I think it will change so many lives of people who otherwise would not even think about this world exist. So I'm personally really excited about that, and no one will be limited anymore, that everything you want to learn and everything you want to do is kind of in your pocket, right? So we made the world a lot more about agency, which I'm excited about. And I cannot wait to see that unfold.

是的，非常令人兴奋。我认为对我来说一个重要的教训是，你总是可以直接去做事情，就像你不需要许可，你不需要先学习，你直接去做就行。

Yeah, it's very exciting. I think one big lesson for me is always you can just go do stuff, like you don't need permission, you don't need to learn stuff, you can just go do things.

所以，但你知道这也让它有点可怕，当你看到人们不去做某些事情时，那就会变成反乌托邦的版本，因为在任何时代或技术中，你总是可以做些什么。最终，这取决于你必须做出的选择。我们不断让这个选择变得越来越容易，但我向你保证，世界上大多数人不会做出这个选择。所以这是值得思考的，稍微负面一点。

So, but you know that makes it also a little bit scary too then when you see people not doing stuff then it's a little bit of a dystopian version of it because in any era or technology you live with you can always do stuff. It ends up it stays with the choice you have to make. We keep making it easy and easier easier and easier to make that choice but still I guarantee you majority of the world will not be making that choice. So it is something to think about a little bit more negative.

但我很高兴至少我们正在消除资源获取的问题，即你是否能接触到某些东西。

But I am happy that at least we're taking away the resourcing as a question whether you have access to something or not.

第二件让我非常兴奋的事情是，在美国或总体上，现在关于 AI 的主流话题非常负面。

The second thing I am really excited about a lot in America or in generally right now more mainstream topic about AI is very negative.

我对我正在做的用例感到兴奋的是，很多时候这是人们一生中最糟糕的日子，他们真的需要帮助，我们如何确保你得到帮助，或者在教育中，或者能够查看你的健康记录并真正理解——你知道我最近在使用健康功能，试图了解如何睡得更好，但答案却是你必须停止做创始人。

What I'm excited about with use cases like I'm working on it's many times the people's worst day in their lives and they really need help and how do we make sure that you get help or in education or in about being able to look at your health records and really understand you know I was recently using the health feature and trying to understand how can I sleep better and there's no answer it's you got to stop being a founder.

但我认为我们开始谈论 AI 的方式会有更多积极面，人们与 AI 的第一次互动不仅仅是关于为什么 XYZ 会消失或工作会消失，而是 AI 的积极影响，这更多是关于世界上的对话。

But I think there are a lot more positive the ways that we are going to start talking about AI and how people's first interaction with AI is not only about like why XYZ is going away or jobs are going away but positive impact of AI that's more in terms of the conversation in the world.

我也对令人惊叹的事情感到兴奋。

I'm also excited about amazing.

是的，非常感谢你今天加入我们，Priya，很荣幸。

Yeah, well thank you so much for joining us today, Priya, it was a pleasure.

谢谢你们的邀请。

Thank you for having me.

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