27 岁如何在 21 个月内打造出 56 亿美元 AI 公司

大家好。欢迎来到 Truth Works 的另一期节目。我是主持人 Jessica Neil，和我一起的是我的联合主持人 Peter Clark。嘿 Pete，最近怎么样？

Hi everyone. Welcome to another episode of Truth Works. I'm your host Jessica Neil here with my co-host Peter Clark. Hey Pete, what's shaking?

嘿 Jessica，你好吗？

Hey Jessica, how are you?

你在纽约。

You're in New York.

我在纽约。是的。

I'm in New York. Yeah.

是的。是的。你和 Lora 团队玩得开心。时机真有意思。是的。

Yeah. Yeah. And you're having fun with the team from Lora. Interesting timing. Yeah.

是的，我知道。时机真有意思。我们刚刚有点剧透了，但呃，不过今天我们请到了 Lora 的创始人，我们正在和 Max 聊天。Max 的故事，他会详细告诉我们，但这是一个很棒的故事，他其实是我很久以来一直想见的人。我想今天是他的生日。

Yeah, I know. Interesting timing. and we just sort of spoiled it, but uh but but we have the founder here of Lora today and we're talking to Max. And Max's story is just he's going to fill us all in, but it's just a great story and he's actually somebody that I've really wanted to meet for a long time now. I think today is his birthday.

我想

I think

是昨天，但很接近了。

yesterday, but you're close.

哦，好的。那么，生日快乐。所以，你现在 27 岁了，不再是 26 岁。

Oh, okay. Well, happy birthday. So, you are now 27 years old, not 26 anymore.

没错。没错。

That's right. That's right.

你知道，你正在建立一家相当重要的公司，而且你实现了巨大的 Scaling（规模扩张），不仅是 ARR，还有人员。所以，我非常兴奋，你知道，不只是听 Lora 的故事，因为那是个好故事。我们会聊到，但我想知道你在学什么，因为我确信，正如你所发现的，建立一家公司并不像看起来那么容易。

And you know, you are building a pretty significant company and you have scaled like tremendously, not just with ARR, but also with people. So, I'm so excited not to, you know, just hear about the Lor story because it's a great story. We're going to get into that, but I want to know what you're learning because I'm sure as you're finding out, building a company isn't as easy as it seems.

当然不是。我认为我在 Y Combinator 得到的建议是，如果你建立一家好公司，融资会很容易。我一直努力遵循这一点，但并不是其他一切都会因为建立了好公司而变得容易。

Certainly not. I think the advice I got in Y Combinator was it's going to be easy to fundraise if you build a good company. I've tried to keep to that, but not everything else is easy just because you build a good company.

对。没错。那么，欢迎。迟到的生日快乐。我们为什么不稍微回顾一下历史，因为我认为历史对人们理解很重要。所以带我们回到过去，告诉我们这一切是如何开始的。

Right. Exactly. So, welcome. happy belated birthday. And why don't we go back in time just a little bit because I do think the history is important for people to understand. So take us back and kind of tell us a little bit about how this all started.

也要带你们回到甚至早于我的时代。最终成为 Legora 的种子是在 2020 年由四位先生创立的，我并不是其中一员。所以有一位心理学家、一位工程师、一位物理学家和一位律师。这听起来像是一个好笑话的开头，但实际上只是一个伟大公司的开端。

Also to take you all the way back to the time that even predates me. The seed that would eventually become Legora was founded in 2020 by four gentlemen who I was not a part of. So it was a psychologist, an engineer, a physicist, and a lawyer. And it sounds like the start to a good joke, but it's really just a start to a great company.

是的。当他们走进酒吧会发生什么？而且

Yeah. What happens when you walk in the bar? And

没错。而且，你知道，3 年后当 GPT 首次问世时，那成为了公司成立的真正催化剂。所以，他们中的两人决定全职继续这项工作。另外两人决定跳出去做其他事情。然后我加入了。正是在那时，我认为那些语言密集型行业——在此之前数字工具的采用率非常低——终于开始觉醒。编程、客户支持、法律，还有许多其他行业。我认为在早期，很多是关于验证和解决基础问题，这些问题今天听起来很容易和通用，但当时是像上下文管理、幻觉、正确的引用、如何处理大量非常非结构化的 PDF 文档？这些现在都是已解决的问题。但一开始，我们必须构建许多这样的基础模块，才能将好产品交到 2023 年那些第一批律师手中。之后，我们开始迭代。我认为初创公司的秘密力量真的是你的短迭代周期。所以一开始，我专注于如何在公司中最大化这一点？如何确保我们每天在会见客户、构建产品和解决新用例之间有许多周期？随着公司持续扩张，我们最近成为历史上从 100 万到 1.5 亿美元 ARR 增长最快的公司。

Exactly. And, you know, 3 years later when GPT first came out, that became the real, you know, catalyst for forming the company. And so, two of them decided to continue working on this full-time. Two of the other guys decided to jump and do other things. And then I entered the picture. And it was precisely then that I think language-heavy industries that had seen very low adoption of digital tools prior to this era finally started waking up. Coding, customer support, law, many others. And I think in those early years it was a lot about proving things out and solving foundational issues which today sound really uh easy and generic but it was things like context management, hallucinations, um proper citations, how do you work with a large number of very unstructured PDF documents? And these are all just like solved problems now. But in the beginning, we had to build so many of these foundational building blocks to even put a good product into the hands of those first lawyers back in 2023. And after we did that, we started iterating. And I think a startup's secret power is really your short iteration cycles. And so in the very early beginning, I was focused on how do I maximize this in the company? How do I make sure that we have many cycles per day between meeting customers and building product and solving new use cases? And as the company has continued to scale, we recently became the fastest company in history to grow from one to $150 million in ARR.

是的。如果我读得没错，你是在两年内做到的。

Yeah. And you did that in two two years if I read correctly.

是的。18 到 21 个月。

Yeah. 18 21 months.

好的。而且我认为这是我们行业的一个特殊时期，因为伟大软件如此匮乏，你知道，去构建的绿地机会数量非常清晰。当然，你知道，我的角色在这方面发生了巨大变化。现在我认为我们正处于公司历史上最激动人心的时刻。

Okay. And and I think it's been a special time in our industry because it's been so underserved with great software that the amount of, you know, green field opportunities to go and build were really crystal clear. And of course, you know, my role has changed tremendously in that. And now we're at the most exciting time in the company's history, I think.

是的，这太迷人了。你知道，我爸爸是律师，所以我对律师有亲和力，他在肯塔基州我们的小镇上有一家小律师事务所，但你知道，有趣的是，这些似乎不性感的、服务不足的市场，但它们是巨大的市场。

Yeah, that's so fascinating. I you know my dad my dad's a lawyer and so I have an affinity for lawyers and he had his own law a small law firm in our small town in Kentucky but I you know I it is so interesting that these sort of they they seem not sexy these underserved markets but they're big markets

嗯，我认为我们确实学会了爱上我们正在解决的问题，而且我很聪明地雇佣了许多比我聪明得多的律师。他们不仅带来了关于如何在我们合作的具体实践领域和组织中部署软件的领域专业知识，而且能够预见技术可能尚未到位但显然会在 3 到 6 个月内实现的地方。我认为当你在这个领域构建产品时，如果你为模型今天所在的位置构建，你就会失败。

well and I think we've certainly learned to fall in love with the problems that we're solving and I've been smart enough to hire many much smarter lawyers than myself. And they come with not only the domain expertise about how to deploy software in the specific practice areas and organizations that we work with, but also are able to see around corners where the technology might not be there yet, but it's clear that it will be within a 3 to 6 month time frame. And I think when you're building products in the space, if you're building for where the models are today, you're failing.

如果你为他们一年后构建，你实际上太早了。所以你需要处于 3 到 6 个月的甜蜜点。你需要玩这种动量游戏，每个季度你都在公司建设、产品建设、收入和指标上达到下一个里程碑。我认为我们非常擅长玩这种多米诺骨牌游戏。我们明白，为了达到 C，你也必须达到 B。因为我们成立于瑞典，这很早就开始了。我的意思是，今天我们为世界上一些最大的法律机构服务。最大的一个实际上比整个瑞典法律市场还大，对吧？所以很早就我们必须弄清楚如何进入新市场？如何一鸣惊人地进入，以及如何从欧洲跳到英国再到美国？所以，这是公司中许多不同的时期，我认为我们遇到了独特的挑战，但我们一次又一次地找到了克服的方法。

If you're building for them a year out, you're actually like too early. And so you need to be in this like sweet spot of 3 to 6 months. And you kind of need to play this momentum game where every quarter you're hitting the next milestones in the buildout of the company, in the buildout of the product, in your revenue, and in your metrics. And I think we just play that domino game very very well. And we've understood that in order to get to C, you also got to get to B. And because we were founded in Sweden, that started really early. I mean, today we serve some of the largest legal institutions in the world. The biggest one is actually bigger than the entire Swedish legal market, right? And so very early on we had to figure out how do you get into a new market? How do you enter them with a bang and how do you make the jump from Europe to the UK and then to the US? So, it's been many different, you know, periods in the company where I think we've had unique challenges which time and time again we've figured out a way to overcome.

好吧，告诉我们所有在 21 个月内。

Well, tell us all in 21 months.

是的。全部告诉我们更多，比如你知道，甚至从瑞典开始，然后你知道，跳到全球。其中的学习是什么？

Yeah. All in tell us more like you know even you know starting out in Sweden then you know making the jump to being global. How what were the learnings in in in that?

实际上，我们能再稍微回顾一下吗？你

Actually, could we back it up just a little bit more? You're

要回顾一下。好的。

going to back it up. Okay.

是的。但你说有四位联合创始人，然后两人继续了这个想法。你是怎么联系到他们的？你当时不是律师。是什么让你对这个领域感兴趣？

Yeah. But so you said four co-founders and then two sort of carried on the idea. How did you get connected to them to that point? You weren't a lawyer. Like what had you interested in the space?

是的。不。

Yeah. No.

我认识他们中的一位，是在大学时。他们决定申请商学院的加速器。那个商业加速器的一个要求是必须有人上过商学院。我就是那个凑数的商学院人——我只是在攻读计算机科学硕士的同时，顺便读了商学院——但这足以让我们入选。当他们联系我时，给我看了一个演示，我觉得非常令人兴奋。我还告诉他们，为什么要满足于瑞典的加速器，我们完全可以申请像 Y Combinator 这样的项目？

So I knew one of them from university, and they decided they wanted to apply to the business school's accelerator. One of the requirements for that business accelerator was that somebody had to have gone to business school. I was the token business school guy—I just did business school on the side while I was doing my master's in computer science—but it was enough to get us in. When they reached out, they showed me a demo which I thought was really exciting. I also told them, why settle for a Swedish accelerator when we could apply to something like Y Combinator?

对。

Right.

我之前曾在两家 YC 初创公司工作过。我认为，给美国一些肯定，那里有很多宏大的抱负和宏大的想法，而在瑞典社会，至少有时这些会被压制一些。所以我们提交了 YC 申请。我们第一次其实没有入选。然后我们做了一些调整，第二次就入选了。我们参加了这个位于斯德哥尔摩的加速器，为期一个夏天。我们很快意识到，三个工程师，身边没有律师，是无法迭代出最优解决方案的。回到那个点，你如何闭合那个迭代循环？所以我设法让我们与北欧最大的律师事务所 Mannheimer Swartling 建立了联系。如果你看过关于 Spotify 的 Netflix 剧集，实际上——他们部分场景就是在那里拍摄的。Spotify 的第一位律师就来自那家律所。

I had worked at two previous YC startups. And I think to give the US some credit, there's a lot of big ambition and big ideas that I think in at least Swedish society sometimes gets pushed down a little bit. So we made our YC application. We actually did not get in the first time. We then made some changes and got in the second time. And we took up this Stockholm-based accelerator for the summer. And we quickly realized that three engineers with no lawyers adjacent to us was not going to be able to iterate to the optimal solution here. Back to the point around how do you close that iteration cycle? And so I managed to get us in with the biggest law firm in the Nordics called Mannheimer Swartling. If you watch the Netflix series with Spotify, it's actually—they're shooting parts of it there. The first lawyer at Spotify came from that firm.

哦，哇。好的。

Oh, wow. Okay.

我们和他们的管理合伙人达成了一项协议——他不太懂 AI，但我们当然也不太懂法律。所以我们在他们的大楼里要到了一间会议室，搬了进去，在业务的前 9 个月里就在那里办公。

We made a deal with their managing partner that—he didn't know that much about AI, but we certainly didn't know that much about law. So we got a conference room in their building, moved in, and worked out of there for the first 9 months of the business.

哇。

Wow.

我认为这给我们带来的不仅是让我们与市场上这样一个顶级、有声望的品牌联系在一起，而且实际上迫使我们拥有一个非常有主见、要求也很高的客户。我认为要求高的客户有时是你所能拥有的最好的东西，因为如果他们对想要的东西有主见，那么你所要做的就是去把它构建出来。

And what I think that did for us was not only did it associate us with such a premier brand and prestigious brand in our market, but it actually forced us to have a very opinionated customer that was also quite demanding. And I think that demanding customers is sometimes the best thing you can have because if they're opinionated about what they want, then all you have to do is go build it.

我认为人们有时会把产品构建的艺术笼罩在神秘之中，但其实很简单。你只需要构建能为他们试图解决的问题提供价值的东西，然后获得反馈，然后迭代，尽可能快地、尽可能多次地做这件事，最终你就会得到真正伟大的东西。

And I think that people can sometimes put the art of product building in a mist of mystery, but it's really quite simple. You just build the thing that provides value to the problem that they're trying to solve, and then you get the feedback, and then you iterate, and you do that as quick as possible for as many times as possible, and then you end up with something really great.

从那时起，与客户共同创造解决方案的理念仍然深深植根于我们的 DNA 中，我认为它确实塑造并形成了此后的大部分文化。

And you know from then that is still very heavy in our DNA, this idea of co-creating solutions with our customers, and I think it really formed and shaped much of the culture since.

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是的。我的意思是，当我读到你的故事的那部分时，我想，那其实相当聪明。你几乎就住在律师事务所里，让自己沉浸在——

Yeah. And I mean, when I read that part of your story, I was like, that's actually quite brilliant. You like lived at a law firm pretty much and immersed yourself in the—

非常漂亮的办公室。

Really pretty offices.

是的，确实如此。而且我猜他们没向你收租金，对吧？

Yes, they do. And you know, I'm guessing they didn't charge you rent, right?

所以那很棒。

So that's great.

他们获得了折扣产品。太棒了。

They get discounted product. That's awesome.

是的。没错。所以，但你知道，我认为你拥有的那种直觉，并不是每个创始人都有，对吧？如此深入地沉浸在客户的问题中。

Yes. Exactly. So, but you know, I think that intuition that you had, not every founder has that, right? To immerse ourselves so deeply in the customer's problem.

嗯，我认为你知道，胜利者多少能书写历史，所以可能存在选择偏差，但我认为我们深入发展了那段关系，然后我们将其带到了其他组织，现在我们在市场上处于一个非常有趣的节点，律师事务所都在真正采用 AI，企业法务部门也是如此，所以我们越来越多地与大型法务部门合作，他们希望削减成本或提高效率，并在内部做其他类型的事情，而以前他们根本没有能力做这些。所以从那些早期日子起，是的，我们专注于解决一个问题，但最终我们当时的产品就像一个 ChatGPT 包装器，具有更好的上下文管理，并且不会在欧洲判例法上产生幻觉。现在我们有了完全不同的产品架构，甚至市场推广服务动作，我认为你最终会为你所处的时代而构建，通常那个时代可能每年左右就会改变，但在 AI 领域，那是每季度都在变。

Well, I think you know the winners get to write the history a little bit and so there's probably a selection bias, but I think we took that relationship deeply and then we brought that to other organizations since and now we're at this quite interesting point in our market where both the law firms are really adopting AI but so are also the enterprise and legal departments and so increasingly we are doing work with large legal departments who are looking to cut costs or drive efficiency and to do other types of things internally that they otherwise or previously just didn't have capacity for. And so from those very early days, yes, we were focused to hone in on one problem, but ultimately the product that we had back then was like a ChatGPT wrapper with better context management and that didn't hallucinate on European case law. Now we have a completely different product architecture even you know go to market service motion you end up building I think for the time that you're in and normally that time might have changed every year or so but in AI that's changing every quarter.

所以我认为对我自己来说，我也告诉每一位新加入的人，你今天肯定处于这个位置，但如果公司正在指数级扩张，最终你将不得不非常努力地跟上它，并跟上即将到来的新挑战。当我们开始组建第一个高管团队，第一批有影响力的招聘时，这是我理念中非常重要的一部分。

And so I think for myself and I tell this to every new joiner as well, you're certainly at the point today but if the company is scaling exponentially, eventually you are going to have to work very hard to keep up with that and to keep up with the new challenges that are coming. And as we start to get into the first build out of the executive team, the first set of impactful hires, like this was a very important part of my philosophy.

是的。好吧，让我们谈谈这个。怎么说呢？你现在 27 岁，但你知道在 20 多岁时，当你开始建立公司时，你怎么知道那很重要？

Yeah. Well, let's talk about that. How so? Having you know sort of being 27 now but you know in in your 20s, how did you know that that was important like when you started building the company?

你知道，如果我作为 CEO 能否做好工作，而且你知道，对这个角色没有任何经验——

You know if I was going to be able to do a good job as a CEO and you know having zero prior experience to that role—

对。

Right.

我必须能够押注于其他人，他们会进来成为创始工程师或创始市场推广高管，并建立我们业务的不同部分。我们公司历史上迄今为止表现最好的市场推广或销售代表从大学辍学。他 24 岁。

I had to be able to take bets on other people who would come in and be founding engineers or founding go-to-market executives and to build up different parts of our business. Our top performing go-to-market or sales rep so far in the company's history dropped out of university. He's 24.

是的。

Yeah.

而且之前没有任何销售经验。现在他领导我们战略客户团队的一部分。

And has zero prior experience doing any sales whatsoever. And now he leads part of our strategic accounts team.

而且

And

我们的创始工程师之前没有工程工作，但曾在建筑仓库工作，销售木板，然后你知道，辞去那份工作加入我们，成为我们的第一位工程师。当你看到这样的人超越甚至他们自己对自己的期望时，我认为这给了你信心，好吧，我们当然会在需要的地方引入经验。

Our founding engineer had no prior engineering job but used to work in a construction warehouse and selling wooden planks and then you know quit that to join us as our first engineer. And when you see people like that outgrow even their own expectations of what they would have been able to do, I think that gives you the confidence to go all right like we're certainly going to bring in experience where we need it.

但有一种原始的能量、热情、解决问题的能力和冲劲，是很难按需创造出来的。你必须天生就有。

But there is a raw energy and passion and problem solving and a go that is very hard to just create on demand. You need to have it.

是的。

Yes.

当然，不是每一次招聘都能成功。我们非常擅长把合适的人请上车，也以好的方式让不合适的人下车。通常当事情不顺利时，这是一种双方共同的感觉。

And you know, not every hire works out certainly. And we were very good at getting the right people on the bus and the right people off the bus in a good way. And often it's a mutual feeling when something is not working out.

是的。你觉得识别这些事情对你来说是天生的，还是说你在过程中学到了什么教训，或者有什么顿悟时刻，让你能更自信地处理这些事情，即使是在不顺利的时候，对吧？

Yeah. And did it feel like it came natural to you to recognize those things or was there sort of a lesson, you know, or an aha moment maybe that you had along the way that allowed you to approach these things, you know, more confidently like even when it's not working out, right?

是的。嗯，对人来说说再见是很难的。嗯，最初几次比现在要难得多。

Yes. Well, it's hard for people to say goodbye. Well, the first times was a lot harder than what it is today.

是的。

Yes.

我觉得反复练习能锻炼出一些肌肉。但我仍然对进行那样的谈话感到非常难受。我觉得如果你不难受，那你可能有点奇怪。

I think like reps build some muscle. But I still feel very bad going into a conversation like that. I think if you don't, then like something might be you know a little strange with you.

嗯。我觉得但另一方面，我认为你需要有能力识别卓越，或者这个人有没有那种特质？

Mhm. I think on but but on the opposite side I think you need to have an ability to like recognize greatness or like does this person have it?

是的。

Yes.

当没有这种特质的人加入时，你真的能感觉到。很难用语言形容，但每个人都能感觉到。

And you really feel when somebody joins who doesn't have it. Like it's hard to put a word on it but like everybody feels it.

完全同意。一旦你让这种情况在组织中滋生，它就会不断蔓延。所以

Totally. And the minute you start to let that grow in your organization, it keeps on growing. And so

我认为我们建立了一个非常自我筛选的团队，大家都明白，如果整个团队都全力以赴，他们可以运作得更快，做得更多。所以现在这开始大规模地发生。我们现在到了这样一个阶段：我以前会面试每个人，但一天的时间根本不够。我们刚迎来了一批新员工，厨房里有 80 个人。

I think we've built like a very self selecting kind of team that all understand together that they can operate faster, they can do more if the whole team is bought in. And so now that's starting to happen at scale. We're at a point now where I used to interview everyone, but there's just not enough hours in the day. We just had a new batch of new joiners and it was 80 people in the kitchen.

哇。

Wow.

你知道，从申请到拿到录用通知的数据大概是 0.3%。

You know, the sort of data from application to getting an offer is something like 0.3%.

是的。

Yeah.

所以，你知道，要让这 80 个人坐在这里，需要经过很多漏斗环节。

And so, you know, like there's a lot of funnel that goes into getting those 80 people in sit here.

是的。

Yeah.

我们把招聘视为一种特权，而不是义务。

And we talk about recruiting as being a privilege and not an obligation.

太棒了。因为我们希望人们在招聘上投入的精力几乎比任何其他事情都多。

Love it. because we want people to put in more effort actually into recruiting than almost anything else they do.

是的。因为它成为公司中许多事情的源头乘数。我认为要在我们现在的规模上做到这一点，你必须以身作则。你必须展示出你以这种方式对待高管招聘。我仍然面试每一位总监及以上级别的人，因为我认为这能维持整个公司的标准。人们很容易认为这只是一个需要填补的编制，但你知道，一个平庸的人可能会取代一个卓越的人。

Yeah. Because it becomes the source multiplier of so much in the company. And I think in order to do that at the scale that we're now at, then you have to lead him from the front. You have to show that you treat your executive hires in that way. I still interview every director plus because I think it maintains that bar in the entire company. And it's so easy to think this is just a headcount we need to fill, but you know, somebody mediocre could be taking the place of somebody exceptional.

真的吗？阿门。是的。绝对如此。我只想说哈利路亚。我很高兴，我很高兴你……是的。阿门。我很高兴你这样做，因为我认为，我的意思是，Pete 和我与很多创始人合作，很多人最终会明白这种“面试是一种特权”的理念。他们并不总是在一开始就理解。而且，老实说，我在 Netflix 能如此成功的原因之一就是 Reed 也相信同样的理念。我们的哲学是人才是我们最重要的事情。我们说，如果你被要求去面试，那比商业会议更重要。取消你的商业会议，去面试。而大多数公司恰恰相反。商业会议总是优先于面试，面试是第一个被取消的。所以，我很高兴看到你认识到这一点并这样做。这让我心里很温暖。

Really? Amen. Yeah. Absolutely. I just want to say hallelujah. I'm glad I'm glad you you Yes. Amen. I'm glad you were doing this because I think I mean Pete and I work with a lot of founders and a lot of them get there eventually on this sort of privilege interviewing is a privilege thing. They don't always get it in the beginning. And you know, and honestly, like one of the reasons why I was able to be so successful at Netflix is that Reed believed the same thing. And you know, our philosophy was talent was the most important thing that we did. And we said if you were asked to interview that trumps a business meeting. Cancel your business meeting, do the interview. And most companies were the opposite. you know, and business meetings always trump the interviews and the interviews were the first thing to get cancelled. So, I'm just glad that you are seeing that and doing that. It warms my heart.

绝对如此。

Absolutely.

是的。

Yeah.

我在大学申请工作时体验过一点。我在美国做了一个交换学期，然后申请了 400 个职位，得到了两次面试。

I got to experience a little of it when I was in college applying for jobs. I did an exchange semester in the US and then I applied for 400 roles and I got two interviews.

哇。400。

Wow. 400.

是的。400。很多公司。

Yeah. 400. A lot of companies.

不。各种各样的。工程职位、增长职位，

No. All kinds. Engineering roles, growth roles,

你知道，幕僚长之类的。

you know, chief of staff stuff.

好的。

Okay.

那是在你可以写一个智能体帮你申请所有那些工作之前。

This is before you could write an agent to apply for all those jobs for you.

是的。我是手动申请的。现在感觉真的很逊。我做了两次面试，一次是在一家风投基金，然后是在一家为蘑菇种植建造机器人的初创公司。我为每个面试做了两个案例。我以为我做得很好，但后来被拒绝了。你知道，那可能是最好的结果，因为那个夏天我开始了 Lora。

Yes. I did them manually. It was it was it feels really lame now. And I did two interviews, one at a venture fund and then one at a startup who were building robots for mushroom farming. And I did two cases for each. I thought I did quite good at both, but then I got rejected. And you know, like that was probably for the best because then I, you know, started Lora instead that summer.

是的。感谢上帝。是的，没错。

Yeah. Thank God. Yeah, correct.

但但你可能在造蘑菇机器人。

But but you could be building mushroom robots.

是的，那可能也不错。但你在那些面试中受到的待遇，相比我在麦肯锡实习时，当你经历那个过程，就像，你知道，六轮面试，非常清晰。你去那里，你知道期望是什么，你知道他们在找什么。我认为那是一次非常好的候选人体验，相比那些更……

Yeah, that could have been something. But but how you get treated in those interviews versus I did an internship at McKenzie and when you go through that process, it's like, you know, six interviews, it's very clear. You go there, you know what you're expected, you know what they're looking for. Like it was a very good candidate experience, I think, versus some of those more pay

嗯。

Mhm.

公司。我认为当你围绕这个建立一套机制时，你需要建立一个品牌，你需要建立一种期望：即使某人结果不佳，没有拿到工作，他们仍然会推荐朋友申请 Luora。

companies. And I think as you build a machine around that, you need to build a brand and you need to build the expectation that even if somebody has a poor outcome in that they don't get a job, they are still going to recommend to their friends to apply to Luora.

又一个阿门。天哪。

Another amen. Oh my gosh.

嗯，我本来要问一个问题。通常我会问一个其实不算问题的问题，但只是因为你已经回答了这个问题，不过我们也经常遇到这种情况。比如，你如何在规模化的同时保持质量？你知道，这种想法，比如你能帮我们招聘吗？我们已经尝试了所有能做的。但就像，你其实没有真正尝试，因为成功的关键就是做你正在做的事情，也就是自上而下。这就是你如何定调。这就是你如何让人们重视它。同时，这已经公开了，你说了，人们在谈论它。然而，你知道，创始人往往仍然会为此挣扎。所以我想我的问题可能是，对于一个想“嘿，我想像 Lora 一样扩张”的创始人，你有什么建议，也许就是你刚才说的一切。

Well, I was going to ask a question. Classically, I do this question that's not really a question, but only because you literally answered the question, but we get that a lot too. like how do you maintain quality at scale? You know, this idea like can you help us with recruiting? We've tried, you know, everything we can. And it's like, but you haven't really cuz like the key to success is doing exactly what you're doing, which is like from the top down. Here's how you set the tone. Here's how you make it important to people. And at the same time, like this is out there, you say it, like people talk about it. And yet, you know, founders often will still struggle with it. So I guess maybe my question is what advice would you have to a founder thinking, hey I would love to scale like Lora and maybe it's just everything you've already said.

是的。另外，你们现在有多少人？

Yes. Also, how many people are you now?

我们现在有 900 人。年初是 250 人。

We're 900 people today. We started the year 250.

哇。

Wow.

所以我认为，如果扩大员工规模对你的业务很重要——今天并非所有企业都必须如此，但我们确实需要。

So I think if it's important to your business to scale headcount, which like not all businesses have to today, but we certainly do.

如果你考虑这件事的前后，你梦想中的后景是什么样，你必须很早就开始，以确保你最终能达到那里。因为我认为如果你只是把招聘当作你一直做的一点点事情，你不会真正感觉到你的指数曲线可能在下降，或者你在降低标准，因为它是逐渐发生的。所以我认为你实际上必须在稍长的时间段内设计这个，并且你必须以六个月的时间线而不是一个月的时间线来考虑公司的人才发展。我们有许多 Legorans 在 6 个月后非常成功，但在前 3 个月却非常不成功。就像 ramp 是真实存在的，你知道有时你会感觉到有些事情不对劲，你知道那可能是文化问题，但如果只是绩效问题，我实际上相信大多数组织太害怕给出明确的反馈，尤其是在欧洲，我认为美国可能在这方面更具对抗性，但瑞典肯定不是一个你寻求反馈并给出严厉反馈的国家。所以再次，如果这不在文化中，你必须把它变成一种仪式，你必须有一个相当紧凑的绩效管理周期和练习。你必须真正鼓励管理者清楚地告诉团队他们的表现如何。你知道，我们现在一些最好的表现者曾被给予低分，也许这是他们一生中第一次被给予低分，他们会说：“天哪，我是二？我不是一个……在 1 到 5 的尺度上，我是二。我真的必须在这里做些不同的事情，否则我不会在这个组织中对自己感觉良好。”这是短期的痛苦，为了终身的更好结果，我认为当你这样看时，这是一个非常公平的权衡。但 upfront 投入工作是很难的。

If you think about the before and after of that, what your dream picture of the after looks like, you know you have to start very early to make sure that you actually end up there. Because I think if you just treat recruiting as something that you do like a little bit all the time, you don't really feel that your exponential curve might be going down or that you're dropping the bar because it happens gradually. And so I think you actually have to design this over a slightly longer period of time and you have to think about talent development in the company as well in like a six-month timeline, not a one-month timeline. We've had many Legorans who have been extremely successful after 6 months but wildly unsuccessful in their first 3 months. Like ramp is a real thing and you know sometimes you get a feeling that like sometimes that something is off and you know that's maybe a cultural thing but if it's just a performance thing I actually believe that most organizations are too afraid of giving a clear feedback especially in Europe I think the US maybe it's a little bit more like confrontative about these things but Sweden certainly is not a country where you search feedback and you give tough feedback. And so again, if that's not in the culture, you have to turn that into a ritual and you have to have a pretty tight performance management cycle and an exercise. And you have to really encourage managers to be clear with teams about how they're doing. And you know, some of our now best performers were given a low score and maybe it's the first time they've ever been given a low score in their life and they're like, "Holy am I a two? I'm not a I'm not a f like on a scale of like one to five. I'm a two. I really, you know, have to do something different here or I'm not going to feel good about myself in the in this organization." And it's a little bit of short-term pain for a for like a lifetime of of better outcome that I think is a very fair trade-off when when you put it like that. But it's hard to put in the work up front.

是的。不，确实如此。我想让你稍微谈谈这个，因为我一直就这个问题给公司提供建议和交谈，但说我们想给出反馈要容易得多。我们想对此透明。我们想要高绩效文化，但我们并没有真正拥有，因为我们不愿意在这件事上全力以赴。所以大多数公司从未达到那里，因为他们对此不够清楚。他们不要求管理者这样做。他们不让管理者对他们所做的招聘和解雇以及他们领导团队的方式负责。那么，你是如何把它变成一种仪式的？你是如何让它成为现实的？因为很难。说是一回事，做是另一回事。

Yeah. No, it is. And and I just would like you to talk a little bit about this because I advise and talk to companies about this all the time, but it's much easier to say we want to give that feedback. We want to be transparent about it. We wanna we want to have a high performance culture, yet we don't really have one because we're not willing to to actually go full-on on this thing. And so most companies just don't ever get there because they aren't that clear about it. They don't demand it from the managers. They don't hold the managers accountable for the hires that they make and the fires that they make and and the way that they lead their team. So, so how how did you make it a ritual and how did you, you know, make make it a reality because it's very hard. It's one thing to say it, it's another thing to like do it.

嗯，也许这里的第一个诀窍是，你知道，我经常考虑招聘到我的团队时，是如何招聘比我更聪明的人，他们会告诉我该做什么，而不是反过来。

Well, maybe the first trick here is, you know, I I often think about hiring into my team as how can I hire somebody smarter than myself who's going to tell me what to do rather than the other way around.

是的。

Yeah.

所以我认为我们在第一次招聘人力资源负责人时做得非常好。他在我们 50 人时加入，来自一个更大的组织，他在 CLA 将几个团队扩展到非常大的团队，然后不得不再次缩减到零，像气球一样上下波动。

And so I think we were exceptionally good in our first head of people recruitment that we did. He joined us when we were 50 people and joined from a much bigger organization and he scaled a couple of teams at CLA to a very large team and then had to you know boil it down to zero again and and up and down like a balloon.

从来不容易。是的。

Never easy. Yeah.

从来不容易。

Never easy.

是的。但这不是需要重新发明的东西。

Yeah. But this is not something that has to be reinvented.

就像我们正在重新发明在 AI 时代成为律师意味着什么。但我们不能重新发明绩效管理和组织设计。这是问题的解决方案。所以，你知道，我愿意在产品开发或品牌上冒险。你知道，也许你见过 Jude Law，那些是令人兴奋的风险。在绩效管理计划中冒险是愚蠢的风险。所以，他来了，他是一个非常注重商业的人才领导者。他不是 HR。他远离传统的人力资源工作方式，这正是我所寻找的。他推动我和其他人说：“这些事情非常重要。我们必须做。我们还没有达到必须在奥运级别上执行的程度，但我们现在必须开始训练肌肉。”因为我们两年前开始训练肌肉，我们现在处于相当好的状态。我认为作为公司的领导者或创始人，大多数时候你的工作不是做事，而是引入合适的人来做那件事。并尽可能使自己在许多角色中变得多余，这样你可以把时间花在你真正擅长的地方，我认为如果你有产品市场契合，这就是工作。在这里，我最好的朋友和早期员工 Bill 最初也领导这个职能。当我们大约 20 人时，他负责法律和财务，然后他招募了一位出色的财务负责人、一位出色的法律负责人和一位出色的人力资源负责人，然后完全使自己变得多余，去专注于下一个大事情，我认为这真的是任何领导者的目标。

Like we are reinventing what it means to be a lawyer in the age of AI. We do not get to reinvent performance management and organizational design. This is a solve of the problem. And so, you know, I'm I'm happy to take risk in product development or in our brand. You know, maybe you've seen Jude Law like those are exciting risks to take. Taking risk in your performance management program is a stupid risk to take. And so, you know, he came in, he's a very business-minded people leader. He's not HR. Like, he's he's very far away from the traditional HR way of working, which was what I was looking for. And he pushed me and pushed others to say, "This stuff is really important. we have to do it. We're not at the scale yet where we have to perform it, you know, at at sort of the, you know, Olympic level, but we have to start training the muscle now. And that because we started training the muscle 2 years ago, we're now in a pretty good state. And I think that as a as a as a leader of a company or as a founder, most often your job is not to do things, but to bring in the right person to actually do that thing. And to to make yourself redundant in as many of your roles as possible so that you can spend your time on where you really spike, I think is if you have product market fit like is very much the job. And and here my my best friend and and early hire Bill got who initially led this function as well. He had legal chart and finance when we were like 20 people and then he recruited an amazing head of finance leader an amazing head of legal and an amazing head of people and then just completely made himself redundant and went and focused on the next big thing and I think that is really the the goal of any leader.

是的。是的。哦，天哪。希望

Yeah. Yeah. Oh gosh. Wish

那应该是成功领导者的目标。是的，没错。

that should be the goal of a successful leader. Yeah, exactly.

是的。所以，和我们谈谈成为全球化的过渡，以及你知道的，其中什么是困难的，什么是容易的。

Yeah. So, talk to us a little bit about the transition of becoming global and and what you know what's been hard about that and and and what's been easy.

我认为最困难的事情，我不是第一个这么说的人，但你知道，确保沟通和全球文化以与你在同一个房间时相同的方式建立起来，真的非常棘手，再次，你必须为此努力。我们在每月的全体会议上投入了很多精力。它们就像你知道的，就像制作一样，你知道，音乐开始，每个人都知道是时候去厨房了。全球每个办公室都收听，除了澳大利亚。对不起，悉尼。那是一个真的很糟糕的时区。

I think the the hardest thing and I'm not the first person to say this but you know making sure that communication and global culture gets built in the same way as when you're in a you know in the same room is really tricky and again you have to work for it. We put a lot of effort into our monthly town halls. They're like you know they're like a production thing you know like the music starts everybody knows that it's time to get to the kitchen. You have every office globally tune in except for Australia. I'm sorry, Sydney. That's a really rough time zone.

这很难。是的。

It's tough. Yeah.

他们可以享受录音。

They get to enjoy the recording.

有时我们在凌晨 5 点做嘉宾节目。

Sometimes we do a guest show at 5:00 a.m.

我认为这已经成为每个人了解情况的一种方式。然后我们很擅长派人到处去。所以我们是一个如此全球化和分布式的团队的一个原因是因为我们在世界各地都有客户。但这也意味着销售团队和我们的法律工程团队一直在世界各地旅行。他们做得很好，互相拜访并传播文化。例如，当我们开始在美国时，我和我们的顶级五六个代表，你知道，我们没有人会在夏天休假。

And I think that has become like a way for everybody to kind of like know what the state of affair is. And then we've been pretty good at sending people around. And so one of the reasons why we we are such a global and distributed team is because we have customers all over the world. But this also means that the sales team and our legal engineering team travel the world all the time. And they do a pretty good job of going to each other and sort of seeding what that culture is. When we started in the US for instance, myself and and our top uh five six reps, you know, none of us were going to take vacation over the summer.

于是我们都说，整个七月去纽约，帮助那个团队播下文化的种子。然后那个团队意识到，Legora 并不是朝九晚五，而是每天朝九晚九、一周七天的那种节奏，至少那个夏天是这样。所以那里的团队真的感受到了，他们说，如果他们在瑞典都这么拼，我们必须把这种精神带到这里。现在你可以看到那些人，在纽约招聘下一批领导者，并维持着非常高的标准。所以我认为，如果你想建立一个分布式团队和全球团队，你必须在这方面投资。我们非常注重办公室优先。我们基本上没有远程工作。原因之一是我们发展得太快，这确实有助于周期，让你迭代得更快，但也因为它能建立情谊，在顺境时打造团队，这样如果遇到低谷或衰退，就能起到缓冲作用。我认为你的文化和团队就像一个存钱罐，你不断往里面投硬币，在事情顺利时投资非常重要。

So we all just said let's go to New York for all of July and help that team seed the culture. And then that team realized that Legora doesn't really work 9 to 5; this is like a 9 to 9 every day a week type of deal, at least for that summer. So the team there really got that feeling, and they were like, if this is how hard they're working in Sweden, we need to bring that here. And now you can see those people hire the next set of leaders in New York and maintain that very high bar. So I think if you want to build a distributed team and a global team, you need to invest in that. We're very office first. We basically have zero remote work. And one of the reasons for that is we're moving so fast that it really helps the cycles and you get to iterate faster, but also because it builds camaraderie and it builds a team in the good times when we're going up that will serve as a cushion if there ever was a downtime or a downturn. And I think your culture and your team is like a chest that you keep putting coins into, and it's really important to invest when things are going well.

是的。

Yeah.

因为可能有一天你得打开存钱罐，或者你们怎么叫它，像小猪存钱罐，你得杀掉小猪。

Because there might be a day when you have to open the chest or like what do you call it, like a piggy bank, you kill the piggy bank.

是的。没错。然后你拿走所有的硬币。

Yeah. Exactly. And you take all the coins.

对。

Right.

就像……是的。是的。我只是觉得你必须尽早投资。

And like the... Yeah. Yeah. And I just think you have to invest in that early on.

是的。不，你得把银行账户填满。

Yeah. No, you got to fill up the bank account.

是的。

Yeah.

因为到了某个时候你得取一些钱出来，如果你没有做好填充的工作，取钱会非常痛苦。

Because at some point you got to take some money out, and if you haven't done the work and filling it up, it's very painful to take it out.

所以我很高兴你专注于这一点。

So I'm glad you're focusing on that.

是的。所有这些都非常深思熟虑。我的意思是，你也为组织做规划，对吧？我认为在非常以产品为中心的公司中，有一种倾向是专注于产品而牺牲其他方面，而不是以同样的方式处理构建业务的每个方面，我的意思是，你会得到结果。

Yeah. All of this is very thoughtful. I mean you plan for the organization too, right? I think there's a tendency in very product-centric companies to focus on the product at the expense of other things, versus approaching every aspect of building the business in the same way, which is, I mean, you get the results.

我认为我的产品，在某种程度上，我的产品就是组织。你知道，我在产品方面也做过同样的工作，引进比我聪明得多的人，确保我们在正确的时间构建正确的东西，并正确地进行优先级排序。这一点已经变得清晰，从我最近在大学做的一次演讲中——当你和母校的人交谈时，他们说我的梦想工作是来 Legora 工作，我不只是认为那是因为他们觉得法律科技很酷，或者认为我们的产品为律师解决问题。他们从朋友那里听说，听说有人在这里实习，经历了一场旋风般的体验，然后他们就说，我需要成为其中的一部分。我认为如果你做到这一点，那么你解决各种问题的能力，不仅仅是你立即处理的问题，会容易得多。在这里，我深受那些在初始领域非常成功、以至于能够——嗯，以谷歌为例。他们从搜索引擎开始，现在他们在建造自动驾驶汽车。对吧。

I think my product, like my product is the organization to an extent. And you know I've done the same job in product, brought in people much smarter than myself to make sure that we're building the right things at the right time and prioritizing correctly. And it's become clear from—I recently did a talk at a university, and when you talk to people at your old school and they say my dream job is to come and work at Legora, I don't only think that's because they think legal tech is cool or that they think our product solves problems for lawyers. They hear about it from their friends, they hear about somebody who did an internship here and had a whirlwind of an experience, and they just go, I need to be part of that. And I think if you do that, then your ability to go solve all kinds of problems, not only the ones that you're immediately working on, is much easier. And here I'm quite inspired by the companies that were so successful in their initial domains that they were able to—well, take Google. I mean they started with the search engine and now they're building self-driving cars. Right.

那是一个相当大的转型。

Like that's a pretty far pivot.

是的。

Yeah.

当你坐进 Waymo，你会想，哇，这是我见过的最酷的技术演示。

And you get into a Waymo and you're like, Wow, this is the coolest tech demo I've ever had.

是的，你知道，我很兴奋一家欧洲创立的公司，尽管现在有很多美国根基，也能成为世界上那样的地方。

And yeah, you know, I'm excited for a European founded company, albeit with a lot of American roots at this point, to also go and be that kind of place in the world.

是的。你知道 Patty McCord，我们的听众知道，她是 Netflix 最初的首席人才官，我们一起创办了这个播客。但她教给我，我们要打造的是最好的“来自”之地。

Yeah. You know Patty McCord, who our listeners know, was the original chief talent officer at Netflix and we started this podcast together. But she taught me what we want to build is the best place to be from.

嗯。

Mhm.

是的。我一直把这一点记在脑子里，就像你想成为那家最好的“来自”之地的公司。

Yeah. And I just always carry that in the back of my head as like you want to be that company that is the best place to be from.

是的。

Yeah.

这是一个很好的看待方式。嗯，我也喜欢你所说的，因为我倾向于经常说这个，就像是的，作为组织的 CEO，公司就是你的产品，对吧，然后也以这种方式对待它，如果你以产品为中心，那么就像你知道的，我们非常刻意地构建产品，你迭代什么有效什么无效，就像构建产品的所有基本要素都可以应用于组织，但你必须

And it's a great way to look at it. Well, I love what you said too of because I have a tendency to say this a lot like yeah as the CEO of the organization the company that is your product at that point right and then to approach it that way too if you're product centric then think about it like you know we very deliberately build product you iterate on what works and what doesn't like all of the sort of basics of building a product can be applied to an organization but you just have to

信念。

Conviction.

它是一个产品，你知道，它是，如果你把它看作一个产品，你在测试，你在迭代，你随着时间的推移让它越来越好，但你知道，我不知道，不幸的是，大多数公司不这样对待它。这很不幸，但是嗯，我想让 Max 和你谈谈，因为我们时间不多了，但我想和你谈谈业务和竞争，以及你如何思考这个世界。

It is a product you know, it is and if you think about it as like a product and you're testing and you're iterating and you're making it better and better and better over time, but you know, and I don't know, unfortunately, most companies don't approach it that way. It's unfortunate, but um I wanted Max to talk to you a little bit because we're running out of time, but I wanted to talk to you a little bit about uh business and competition and and how you're how you're thinking about the world.

是的，世界很大。法律领域非常庞大。正如我一开始所说，绿地的机会和需要解决的问题数量远远超过实际从事这项工作的人数，所以我认为现在在这里建设是一个非常有趣的时期。另一个有趣的事情是沿着复杂性阶梯向上移动。所以当我们开始时，我觉得对产品的查询或期望是它能够做非常简单的事情，这在 2023 年是真的。现在我们实际上处于一个时间点，我认为 Legora 在许多法律任务上比训练有素的人做得更好。

Yeah, the world is a very big place. The legal space is enormous. And as I said in the beginning, the amount of green field opportunities and the amount of problems to go and solve just so out like outweigh the number of people actually working on it that it's actually like a very fun time I think to be building here. The other interesting thing is moving up the complexity ladder. So when we started, I feel like the queries or the expectations on the product was that it would be able to do very simple things, which was true back in 2023. Now we're actually at a point in time where I think Legora does a better job of a lot of legal tasks than what a trained person does.

嗯。

Mhm.

它仍然需要一个司机。所以你不会看到像 vibe coding 那样的 vibe drafting，因为法律的容错率要小得多。而且出错有时代价非常大。在法律领域构建的问题在于，没有真正的方法像在代码中那样验证结果。所以你可以写单元测试，或者你可以有一个编译器，你实际上知道代码是否正确，因为它必须遵循某些规则。在法律中，它并不是那样运作的。所以你仍然需要一个非常熟练的司机来从系统中获得更多。我们开始观察到的是，那些懂技术的人正在他们自己的判断、智慧和能力上获得一个数量级的杠杆。这种能力的提升非常分散，它显然遵循这种清晰的——

It still needs a driver. And so you're not seeing vibe drafting in the same way that you see vibe coding because law has a much smaller margin of error. And the cost of getting it wrong is very large sometimes. And the problem with building in legal is that there's no real way of verifying the results in the same way that you have in code. So you can write unit tests or you can have a compiler and you actually know if the code is correct or not because it has to follow certain rules. In law it doesn't really work that way. And so you still need a very skilled driver to get more out of the system. And what we're starting to observe is that the people who know and who are tech-savvy are getting an order of magnitude leverage on their own judgment, intelligence and capabilities. And that increase in capability is very dispersed and it obviously follows this sort of clear—

我们刚在办公室听到一声锣响。我们有一个巨大的销售锣，有人——

We just heard a gong here in the office. We have a huge sales gong and somebody—

那是销售吗？我正要说销售。刚刚发生了一笔销售。

Is that a sale? I was going to say a sale. A sale just happened.

大销售锣。有人刚刚疯狂地敲了它。

Big sales gong. Somebody just went crazy on it.

今天是这个月的最后一天。你得把那些销售业绩搞进来。从竞争格局的角度看，当大语言模型刚出现时，涌现了太多法律 AI 公司。有像 GPT law 这样的，还有这家公司、那家公司，遍布全球。感觉有点像一只刚孵化的小海龟在沙滩上，你必须在鸟儿把那些小海龟叼走之前冲进海里。而我们成功进入了海里，现在就像海洋里的一只巨龟。我们能解决的问题数量……今年我们收购了五家公司，在公司内部开发新产品，规模一直在增长。在法律领域，从来没有过像编程或其他专业服务行业那样的操作系统。所以，我现在对我们正在构建的东西，可能比两年前我们构建的东西更兴奋。我们正开始进入一个时代，不使用 AI 来提供法律服务几乎是不道德的。我们做了一项大型第三方研究。基本上，Legora 在 71% 的情况下能帮助人们发现他们原本发现不了的错误。如果这是真的，那就意味着你不应该在没有 AI 辅助的情况下提供法律服务。就像你大概不应该在没有智能体审查安全漏洞的情况下推送代码一样。法律——成为一名律师是一个受保护的称号。它是世界历史上最古老的职业之一，和医生一样。现在我们开始为他们构建工具和体验，真正帮助他们大规模执业。我认为我们还处在非常非常早期的阶段。人们正在大规模采用，但我们才刚刚跑完一英里，而我相信这是一场非常漫长的马拉松。

It's the last day of the month. You got to get those sales in. And I think from a competitive landscape question, there were so many legal AI companies that started when LLM first came. There was like GPT law and there was this company and that company all over the world. And it felt a little bit like being a turtle on a beach that just hatched and you had to make it into the water before the birds picked up all the small turtles. And we made it into the water and now we're like a very large turtle in the ocean. The amount of problems that we're able to go solve. We've acquired five companies this year to go and work on new products in the company, it's just like ever growing. And there's never really been this operating system in legal as there's been in coding or in other even professional service industries. And so I'm probably more excited about what we're building now than what we were building two years ago. And we're starting to enter an age where it's almost unethical to not use AI in the delivery of legal services. We did this big third party study. Basically, Legora helps people find errors that they otherwise wouldn't have in 71% of the cases. Now, if that's true, it just means that you should not be delivering legal services without having an AI help you on it. In the same way that you probably shouldn't push code without having an agent review it for security vulnerabilities. And law is a like being an attorney is a protected title. Like it is one of the oldest jobs in the history of the world, the same as being a doctor. And now we're starting to build instruments and experiences for them that meaningfully contribute to their ability to practice at scale. And I think we're still so so early. Like people are adopting at massive scale, but we're only in mile one of what I believe to be a very long marathon.

是的。因为你知道，再过两年它会比现在更好。而且为什么……

Yeah. Because you know in two more years it'll be even better than it is now. And why while

AI 永远会是它最差的样子，对吧？

the AI is the worst it will ever be, right?

是的。所以，你知道，不是说你是算命先生或预言家，但比如两年后，你觉得什么会令人兴奋？

Yes. Yeah. So, you know, not that you're a fortune teller or a future teller, but like in two years, what do you think will be exciting?

是的。所以，我认为今天不得不审查 AI 的输出会占用大量时间。就像在编程中，你实际上花在审查代码上的时间比写代码还多，这可不是工作中最有趣的部分。同样，人们在审查 AI 生成的标记，而不是以有趣的方式运用他们的大脑。所以，我对未来两年感到兴奋的是，从下游工作转向上游设计，如果你是一位出色的合同律师，你可以花时间设计流程和系统，并让它大规模运作。我认为有太多工作领域基本上未被探索，因为它们不经济。我举个例子。我们与西海岸一家非常大的企业合作，他们想了解所有合同中存在什么。他们计算过，在 AI 之前，这将花费他们 4400 万美元。而我们只用了四天就完成了整个工作。

Yeah. So, I think there's a little bit of having to review the outputs of AI today that takes up a lot of time. Like in coding, you actually spend more time reviewing code than actually writing code, which is like not the most fun part of the job. In the same way, people are reviewing markup from AI rather than like applying their brain in an interesting way. And so what I'm excited for in the next two years is moving from the downstream work to the upstream design where if you are an amazing contracting attorney, you get to spend time designing the process and designing the system and letting that operate at scale. And I think there are just so many pockets of work that have basically been unexplored because they've been uneconomical. I'll give you an example. We work with a very large enterprise in the West Coast and they wanted to understand what existed in all of their contracts. They made a calculation that this was going to cost them $44 million pre AI. And we just did that entire exercise in four days.

哇。

Wow.

而且只花了大约 1 万美元。

And it was like 10,000 bucks.

哇。那真是

Wow. That is

而且原本要花费——原本要花费 4400 万美元，因为他们得雇很多人来做，还有咨询人员

And it was gonna cost It was going to cost 44 million because they would have to hire so many people to to do it and people consulting

人工辅助审查。

assisted review with people.

哇。现在他们完成了，他们拥有了所有这些洞察，将帮助他们做出更好的商业决策。他们发现了许多奇怪的合同。我确信他们发现了。

Wow. And like now now that they've done that, they have all that insight that will help them make better business decisions. And they found so many weird contracts. I'm sure they did.

还有他们不知道自己承担的义务，现在他们实际上可以去补救。

And obligations that they had no idea that they were under and now they can actually go and remedy them.

哇。在那种情况下，这也影响了利润。

Wow. And in that case, that's impacting the bottom line, too.

是的。绝对。

Yeah. Absolutely.

因为那些钱可能因为措辞不当或有人看到合同里这么写就以为必须写进去而白白流失。

Because those are those are dollars that are maybe going down the drain because it was bad wording or somebody saw it in a contract so they thought they had to put it in a contract.

是的。没错。所以那不是他们曾经

Yeah. Exactly. And so that was not something that they'd ever

对法律供给增加感到兴奋，因为法律服务不受需求限制。对法律服务的需求基本上是无限的，对吧？当然价格点不同，但如果你做大可用的法律服务这块蛋糕，那么需求就会吸收它，所以你知道，那种正义的可及性、法律服务的可及性、能够更了解世界。我认为这些都是朝着好的方向的趋势，随着我们在生态系统中占据越来越大的部分，我认为我们可以发挥非常有意义的作用，帮助并成为其中良好的一部分。

excited for the increase of legal supply because legal services are not demand constraint. There's basically infinite demand for legal services, right? at different price points obviously, but if you grow the pie of the legal services that are available then that will you know the demand will take that and so you know the the sort of access access to justice access to legal services being able to be more informed about the world. I think all of these are are trends in a good direction that as we become a bigger and bigger part of the ecosystem, I think we can play a very meaningful role in in helping and and being a good part of too.

是的。

Yeah.

民主化获取。是的。绝对。

Democratizing access. Yeah. Absolutely.

我喜欢这个。

I love that.

而这不能成为你的商业模式，因为这样做很难赚钱。但但这是副产品，如果你构建一切并能以非常成本高效的方式提供服务，那为什么不呢？

And that cannot be your business model because it's very hard to make money doing that. But but it's a it's a by effect of if you build everything and you can serve it in a very costefficient way, then why not?

这是件好事。这是件好事，而且你很棒。我对你印象非常深刻。我们我们应该

It's a good thing to do. It is a good thing to do and you're good. I'm very impressed with you. We We should

投资了。

have invested.

我我知道。我会我会去做的。所以，我要让你为难一下。不，我们今天已经让你为难了好几次，但再来一次。我们总是请嘉宾给听众留下一些鼓舞人心的话。你今天说了很多鼓舞人心的话，但你想给他们留下哪一件今天可以思考的事？

I I know. I'm gonna I'm gonna get on that. So, I'm going to put you on the spot. Not And we've put you on the spot a bunch today, but one more time. And And we always ask our guests to leave our listeners with something inspiring. You've said many inspiring things today, but what's the one thing you want to leave them with today to kind of think about?

我没准备这个问题，但

I was not prepared for this question, but

我知道。抱歉。

I know. Sorry.

我会我会给听众留下，你知道，你可以直接去做事。事实上，我现在是什么？27 岁的非——截至昨天——律师

I will I will leave the listeners with you know you can just do things. The fact that I'm a what now? 27year-old non as of yesterday lawyer

来自瑞典的非律师，用 5 万美元的天使资金在 PEYC 附近创立了 Legua，你知道现在我们在这里，如果你看看谁和我一起参与建造这艘火箭飞船，就像你可以直接做事，事情不需要不合理或不可及，我认为你可以在抱负上有点不合理。而且我认为成为别人想帮助、想看到成功的人也是一个非常好的主意。这在我的许多冒险中肯定帮助了我。

non lawyer from Sweden who started Legua with 50,000 in angel funding in around PEYC and you know now we're here and if you look at who is part of building this this rocket ship together with me like you can just do things like things don't need to be unreasonable or unreachable I think you can be a little bit unreasonable in your ambitions. And I think it's also very a very good idea to be somebody who others want to help and who others want to see succeed. That's certainly helped me in many of my adventures.

我喜欢。是的。我认为这是非常重要的一点。成为人们想帮助的人。

I love it. Yes. I think a very important thing to listen to. Be someone people want to help.

是的。或者想看到成功。就像我认为，有些人你肯定就是不想看到他们赢。

Yeah. Or see win. Like I think that is like some people you definitely you you just like don't want to see them win.

就像你并不兴奋去帮助他们，而其他人你会说：“哇，我真的想看到那个人赢。”

Like you're not excited to help them and others you go, "Wow, like I really want to see that person win."

我觉得你说的是别做个混蛋，你知道吗？别做

I think what you're saying is don't be a dick, you know? Don't be

我说得更委婉些。

I'm saying it in a nicer way.

是的。用瑞典的方式。是的。

Yeah. In a Swedish way. Yeah.

是的。我是粗鲁的美国方式。

Yeah. I'm a crude American way.

我是个粗鲁的美国人。但是是的，但我的意思是这非常真实。你付出什么就会得到什么，

I'm a crude American. But yeah, but I mean it is very true. you you get back what you put out,

你知道吗？

you know?

是的。但这也像是真的很难帮助一个

Yeah. But it's also like it's really hard to help someone

不知道自己要去哪里的人

who doesn't know where they're going

或者没有愿景的人。就像你不必做个混蛋才能不帮助那些你不想帮助的人。就像

or who doesn't have a vision. Like you don't have to be a dick to like not be somebody you don't want to help. Like

如果你去说，嗯，我不知道该做什么，那会很难。

it's very hard if you go and you're like, well, I don't know what to do about anything.

然后你会说，嗯，我该从哪里开始呢？

And then you're like, well, where should I even start?

但如果你去说，嘿，我很兴奋能与北欧最好的律师事务所合作。我对法律一无所知，但我认为你对 AI 了解不多，所以我认为我们可以真正互相帮助。就像那样一个更有趣的想法，伸出手说我是个喜欢当场做决定的人。让我们一起合作，这正是 Vora 和我之间发生的情况。

But if you go and you say, hey, I'm excited to work with the best law firm in the Nordics. I don't know anything about law, but I don't think you know that much about AI and so I think we can really help each other. Like that is a much more interesting idea to put your hand forward and go I'm a person who likes to take decisions on the spot. Let's work together which is exactly what happened in the case of Vora and myself.

是的。

Yes.

所以

And so

我认为有方向和有目标感

I think being like having direction and having a sense of goal

实际上能帮助你成为别人想帮助的人。

actually helps you to be somebody others want to help.

是的。我还要补充，你对这个问题真正好奇，就像你想学习它。是的。

Yes. And I would add you were genuinely curious about the problem like you wanted to learn it. Yeah.

我认为这是一个关键点，对吧？是的。有无法指导的人，也有没有方向的人，对吧？你试图找到那种，嘿，我对这个感兴趣。我有一个论点。我有一个想法。当你有一些东西时，大多数人都很乐意帮助，对吧？当有人只有一张白纸时，我们大多数人都难以帮助，你会说，嗯，又回到你的观点，我甚至不知道如何开始。

I think that's a key fine point to talk about, right? Yeah. There's there's uncoachable and there's folks with no direction, right? And you're sort of trying to find the like, hey, I'm interested in this. I have a thesis. I have an idea. And most people are very happy to help when you've got something, right? Most of us struggle with helping when someone's got the blank piece of paper and you're like, well, again, your point, I don't even know how to start.

所以那种融合，你知道，不要太

So that blend of, you know, not being so

谦虚以至于你不知道自己在做什么，对吧？但同时，不要，你知道，太傲慢，我猜，以至于你认为你知道一切，只是，

humble that you don't know what you're doing, right? But at the same time, not being, you know, so arrogant, I guess, that you think you know everything and just,

对，

right,

再次，有这么多人做过这个并且乐意帮助。太神奇了。所以，

again, there's so many people out there who have done this and are happy to help. It's amazing. So,

是的，没错。并且对你认为自己能做的事情要不合理。我喜欢这个，

yeah, that's right. And be unreasonable with what you think you can do. I love that,

Max。我很高兴你来了。我很高兴我终于见到了你。如果你需要，Pete 和我在这里帮助你。

Max. I'm so glad you came on. I'm so glad I finally got to meet you. Pete and I are here to help you if you need it.

谢谢。

Thank you.

你打电话给我们。

You call us.

我绝对会接受你的提议。

I'm totally going to take you up on that.

我们将要 我们在这里帮助你，因为我们是超级粉丝。所以，

We are going to We're here to help you because we're huge fans. So,

并查看 Lora。看看招聘页面。

and check out Lora. Look at the careers page.

是的。

Yeah.

成为其中的一部分。

Be a part of it.

显然，他们正在招聘，但你必须拥有那种特质，伙计们。

Clearly, they're hiring, but you gotta you got to have the it factor, folks.

就这样。谢谢你，Jessica。谢谢你，Pete。这很棒。

That's it. Thank you, Jessica. Thank you, Pete. This has been great.

是的。谢谢。

Yes. Thank you.