从平面设计到科技：Marvin Schwaibold 的 Shopify 之旅

欢迎收听 Dive Club。我是 Ridd，这里是设计师永不止步的学习之地。还记得 Shopify 的首席设计官 Carl Rivera 最近来节目时分享的愿景吗？他想要打造 Shopify 产品设计工作室。今天的嘉宾 Marvin Schwaibold 曾是 Molly Studio 的一员，Shopify 最近收购了该工作室以实现这一愿景。我们将深入探讨创造力、AI 工具，以及如何通过设计实现差异化。Shopify 目前有一些非常酷的工作正在进行，但在深入之前，我请 Marvin 分享一下他加入 Molly Studio 之前的经历。

Welcome to Dive Club. My name is Ridd and this is where designers never stop learning. Remember when the Chief Design Officer at Shopify, Carl Rivera, came on recently and he shared his vision to create the Shopify product design studio. Well, today's guest is Marvin Schwaibold who was part of Molly Studio which Shopify recently acquired to bring that vision to life. So, we're going to do a deep dive into creativity, AI tools, and what it looks like to differentiate with design. And there's some seriously cool work happening at Shopify right now, but before we get into it all, I asked Marvin to share a little bit about his journey leading up to Molly Studio.

我的职业生涯很早就开始了，做平面设计，算是误打误撞。我偶然发现了一家我想去的设计工作室。实际上，是我妈妈帮我拿到了在那家工作室的第一份实习。我在那里待了五年多。我早期职业生涯的很大一部分都围绕着字体排印、品牌设计和模拟设计。我们大量印刷，压印纸张，为企业做很多文具类的东西，还为餐厅做很多室内设计。那个世界，对我来说，是我不知道我可以体验的。我在学校很普通，数学、写作和阅读都不太好。当我偶然进入平面设计领域时，我觉得我找到了一个天生容易吸收和理解的东西。我觉得自己在使用字体和颜色时拥有超能力。我想继续在那家机构工作。我父母说，你必须学点什么，不能直接从学校跳到工作，这不是我们教育你的方式。我去找机构说，我必须学习。我们斯图加特镇上就有一所设计学校，是一所大学。你可以去那里学习传播设计、视觉传达和字体排印，同时继续和我们一起工作。所以，两全其美。我既能学习平面设计以及如何通过形状和颜色进行视觉传达，又能通过真实的客户、真实的会议和真实的场景来实践。

I started in graphic design very early on in my career kind of by accident. I stumbled across a design studio that I wanted to work with. Actually, my mom got me my first internship at that studio. I stayed with that studio for over five years. That whole part of my early career was very much routed around typography and branding and analog design. We were printing a lot. We were embroidering papers. We were working a lot on stationary things for companies. We were making a lot of interior for restaurants. And that whole world, I think to me was just something that I didn't know I could experience. I was pretty average in school. Not very good at math or writing and reading. And when I stumbled into graphic design, I felt like I had found something that innately was easy for me to consume and to understand. And I kind of felt like I had the superpower when I was using type and colors. I wanted to continue working with that agency. My parents were like, you have to study something. You can't just go from school straight to a job. That's not how we raised you. And I went to the agency. I was like, I have to study. There's a design school right in our town here in Stuttgart. It's a university. You can go there and study communication design, visual communication, and typography, and you can continue working with us. So, it's like, okay, best of both worlds. I get to learn about graphic design and about how to visually communicate through shapes and colors, but I get to practice it with real clients in real meetings and real scenarios.

那么，从更传统的代理机构平面设计背景转向科技行业是什么感觉？因为你的下一个角色直接去了 Squarespace，对吧？从这两个世界转换时，你需要应对哪些思维转变或成长领域？

So, what was it like then making the jump from more of the agency traditional graphic design background to working in tech? Because you went right to Squarespace, right? As the next role? What were some of the mental shifts or growth areas that you had to tackle moving from those two worlds?

中间还有一步，我快速提一下。我从德国搬到了洛杉矶，在那里的一家电影行业机构工作。但我的第一次跳跃已经是从品牌和模拟设计转向交互设计和网页设计。这对我早期的塑造起了很大作用，尤其是在网页设计行业。我可以利用网络来操纵用户对事物的理解，或者通过动效、延迟或 WebGL 来取悦用户。我们做了很多项目，比如《犬之岛》、《鬼故事》、Def Jam 以及所有那些有趣的电影。我们和 A24 合作了很多。你必须精心打造和创造体验。它们感觉更像是艺术品，而不是仅仅吸引用户并带他们踏上旅程的网站。让他们对某部特定电影感到兴奋。就这样我进入了科技行业，因为我进入了 Squarespace 的视野。他们雇佣我加入他们的网页概念部门，这是一个内部团队，处于产品和品牌之间，位于所有好东西的交汇处，但与路线图脱节。我在科技行业的第一份工作有一个非常非传统的头衔或角色。我不是以产品设计师、实习生、文案或工程师的身份开始的。我加入了一个探索 Squarespace 未来网络形态的团队。这个团队有自由和空间去摆弄和原型化 Squarespace 创建的生态系统，以推动边界。这有时很可怕，因为当你没有路线图时听起来很有趣，直到你有了路线图。要参加评审和会议。我们有责任提出新的范式。但我们团队和工作室中最好的范式和新想法都来自于原型设计和修补，以及摆弄我们手头的所有组件和碎片。然后我很快就爱上了构建软件和编辑器的复杂性。Watson 和我会创建一次性的网站，它们很少有 CMS 之类的东西。在 Squarespace，我学会了思考生态系统和系统。我记得我的第一个项目是处理页眉。我当时非常确定我能搞定它并大获成功。但我失败得很惨，因为我不理解如何思考构成特定页眉的所有配置和复杂性。

There was one step in between that I'll quickly mention as well. I moved from Germany to Los Angeles and worked with an agency there in the movie industry. But, already my first jump going from branding and analog design into interactive design and web design. And that was a big part of what shaped me early on, especially in the web design industry. I could use the web to manipulate how the user would understand something or I could delight through motion or through delays or through WebGL. We worked on a lot of projects like Isle of Dogs and Ghost Story and Def Jam and all these fun movies. We worked a lot with A24. You had to craft and create experiences. They felt more like art pieces than they did websites that would just entice users and bring them along for the journey. Get them hyped up about a specific movie or film. That's how I ended up in tech because I was on Squarespace's radar. They hired me for a web concepts department that they had, which was an internal team that lived between product and brand right in the intersection of all of the good stuff, but was disconnected from road map. And my first job in tech was a very unconventional title or role. I didn't start as a product designer or as an intern in tech or as a copywriter or as an engineer. I started in what could the future of the web for Squarespace look like team. And that team had freedom and range to mess around and prototype with the ecosystem that Squarespace had created to push the envelope forward. Which at times was scary because it sounds really fun when you don't have a road map until you have a road map. Show up to reviews and to meetings. We're on the hook for coming up with new paradigms. But the best paradigms and the best new ideas that came out of our team and out of our studio came out of the idea of prototyping and tinkering and just kind of messing around with all of the components and bits and pieces we had at our disposal. And then very quickly fell in love with the complexity of just building software and building editors. Watson and I would create one-off websites. They rarely had a CMS or anything like that. And at Squarespace I learned to think about an ecosystem and a system. I remember my first project working on headers. And I was so sure that I could tackle this and knock it out of the park. And I failed so miserably because I didn't understand how to think through all the configurations and complexities that make up a specific header.

是的，在那个层面工作时有更多的约束。

Yeah, a few more constraints when you're working at that level.

更多的约束，没错。学习这一切如何运作，汉堡菜单与菜单中暴露的内容。有双层菜单。有很多东西我根本不知道它们存在。但我没有害怕或气馁，反而真的投入其中。我想，“哦，在编辑器的约束下解决这个问题或让它更美观，将对我们的用户产生巨大影响”，模板也是如此。我们为客户构建了很多模板，看到它们被发布出去，人们在使用它们，这非常令人上瘾和有趣。

A few more constraints, exactly. And learning about how that all collapses and the hamburger versus what's exposed in the menu. There's double menus. There were so many things that I didn't know that actually existed. And instead of getting afraid or discouraged by any of that complexity, I actually got really into it. I was like, "Oh, solving this or making this more beautiful within the constraints of what our editor is will be a huge impact for our users" and the same was for templates. We built a lot of templates for customers and seeing those out in the world and people using them was very addictive and very fun.

快速插播一条消息，然后我们再继续。我万万没想到，过去几个月我的设计工作流程会发生如此巨大的变化，其中很大一部分原因是 Paper 的新快照工具。这是一个 Chrome 扩展，可以让你从实时网站复制任何组件或元素，然后直接粘贴到 Paper 中作为可编辑图层。

Real quick message and then we can jump back into it. Never in a million years did I think my design workflow would change so drastically in the last few months and a big part of it is Paper's new snapshot tool. It's a Chrome extension that lets you copy any component or element from your live website and then paste it directly into Paper as editable layers.

所以我经常从生产环境抓取内容，让 Claude 立刻在 Paper 的画布上用六种不同方式呈现出来。当我准备把概念发回给 Claude 时，过程非常顺畅，因为 Paper 的画布使用的是真实的 HTML 和 CSS。对我来说，这种工作流很像设计的未来，而且你现在就可以开始尝试。只需访问 dive.club/paper 即可体验。如果你还在 Figma 里设计、在 Framer 里重建，那你就是在做双倍的工作。有了 Framer 的设计页面，你不再需要在不同工具之间切换。我为 dive 网站制作的最后一个页面，完全是在 Framer 里探索和构建的。你可以在同一个地方进行草图、迭代、结构化和发布。Framer 不仅仅是一个网站构建工具，它是你整个工作流程的设计工具。你可以立即在 framer.com 免费开始创建，如果使用代码 Rib，还可以解锁一个月的 Framer Pro 免费使用。现在，继续我们的节目。

So all the time I'll grab something from prod, have Claude immediately spin it up six different ways on Paper's canvas and then when I'm ready to send a concept back to Claude, it's seamless because Paper's canvas uses real HTML and CSS. That workflow feels a lot like the future of design to me and you can start doing this today. Just head to dive.club/paper to try it out. If you're still designing in Figma and are rebuilding in Framer, then you're doing twice the work. With Framer's design pages, you no longer have to jump between tools. The last page that I made for the dive website, I explored and built entirely in Framer. You can sketch, iterate, structure, and publish to the web all from the same place. Framer isn't just a site builder, it's a design tool for your entire workflow and you can start creating today for free at framer.com and if you use the code Rib, you can unlock a free month of Framer Pro. Now on with the episode.

那我们能不能把故事快进一点？对很多人来说，你是因为 Molly 以及被 Shopify 收购才进入视野的，他们可能还会去看你的 Twitter 之类的。那么 Molly 背后的故事是什么？它是怎么来的？你们当时的定位又有什么独特之处？

So can we fast forward a little bit in the story and then for a lot of people you kind of came on the map through Molly and the Shopify acquisition and maybe they're like checking out your Twitter and everything. So like what's the story behind Molly? How'd that come to be and what made the way that you all were like positioning yourselves unique, too?

我开始和一位非常有才华的设计师 J Tell 合作。我们多年前在纽约认识的。他当时在 Twitter（那时候还叫 Twitter）上给我发了私信，说想见个面。我们喝了杯咖啡，结果那杯咖啡变成了一场大概四个小时的对话，聊设计、原则、工程，以及我们如何看待世界和产品。基本上，那次对话结束时，他就决定一起合作。我们立刻开始一起做自由职业。从那杯咖啡之后，我们几乎每天都在一起工作。我们创建 Molly 是因为当时我们虽然一起做自由职业，但没有一个工作室，没有一个真正可以工作、称之为家并协作的空间。这就是我们创建这个空间的原因。我们想要一个可以每天面对面坐着、互相碰撞想法的地方。我记得史蒂夫·乔布斯有个关于岩石打磨机的比喻：你把一堆粗糙的石头放进打磨机，让它工作 24 小时，第二天你就得到了非常漂亮的鹅卵石。这是因为它们在过去 24 小时里互相碰撞。结果发现，我们想要的工作方式以及我们围绕自己组建的团队，实际上比我们承接的项目更重要。所以我们做了很多工作，开始与 Shopify 以及 Shopify 应用合作，这显然是 Shopify 的重要组成部分。正是这些让我们进入了 Shopify 的视野，他们觉得：“哦，这个团队、这群人、他们围绕自己建立的社区、他们创造的文化和环境，以及他们解决问题的方式，真的很棒。我们希望看到他们在更大的使命上产生影响。”

I started working with this extremely talented designer called J Tell. We met years ago here in New York. He DM'd me actually on what was then Twitter and just wanted to hang out. We grabbed a coffee and that coffee turned into like I think a 4-hour conversation about design and principles and engineering and how we thought about the world and about products. And basically at the end of that conversation he decided to work together. And we immediately started freelancing together. And we've worked together basically every day since that initial coffee meeting. And we created Molly because at the time we were both freelancing and working together, but we didn't have a studio. We didn't have a space to actually work out of and call home and collaborate in. And that's why we created the space. We wanted a place that we could sit across from each other on a daily basis and just bounce ideas off each other's heads. And I think there's that Steve Jobs quote about the rock tumbler like you put a bunch of rough rocks into a rock tumbler and you let it work for 24 hours and the next day you have these really beautiful pebbles. It's because they spent the last 24 hours bumping into each other. And turns out that how we wanted to work and the team that we assembled around ourselves was actually more important than the projects we took on. And so a lot of the work we did and we started working with Shopify and with Shopify app, which is a huge part of obviously Shopify. That's what really put us on Shopify's map where they were like, "Oh, this team and this group of people and the community they've built around themselves, the culture that they have created and the environment that they have and how they solve problems is actually beautiful and we would love to see them have an impact on a bigger mission."

我确实想深入了解一下 Shopify 的产品设计工作室是如何运作的。但在那之前，我想通过 Molly 的视角了解一下创意协作是什么样的。有没有一个你特别引以为豪的项目幕后故事，可以让我们了解你们是如何工作的，以及你们带来了什么？

I definitely want to dig into how the product design studio at Shopify works. Before we move on, I do kind of want to get a sense of what creative collaboration looked like through the lens of Molly. So, is there maybe like a behind the scenes of a project that you're particularly proud of that we could point at to understand how you all are working and what you guys are bringing to the table?

我觉得 Molly 最大的项目之一是与一个大家都很熟悉的工作室合作的。我们和 Brian Collins、Leland Maschmeyer 以及他们团队里其他很多非常有才华的人一起，对 Collins 进行了重新设计。现在网站上线后，他们总是这样讲述这个故事：我们过来为这个项目做 pitch，我们说，每个人都以错误的方式思考网络，以错误的方式思考网络上的信息消费。我们有自己的一套方法，如何将内容消费应用到我们做的所有项目上，我们会把这种方法论——不是模板——应用到你们身上。他们对此非常感兴趣，因为他们以前从未听过这种思路。对我们来说，这个想法是：网络的工作方式和你使用手机或电脑没什么不同。对我们来说，它基本上更像一个操作系统。所以，在网络上消费信息需要极其简单和高效。我们试图突出那些让你的公司或业务成功的最重要的事情，而其他所有内容则通过你在 iPhone 或 iPad 上会看到的模式逐步展开。我认为这是一种截然不同的看待网站和在线内容的方式，这也很重要，因为我们也做了很多产品。这对 Collins 来说非常有趣。我们花了超过一年的时间与他们合作这个网站，制作了成百上千种不同的布局，真正带着他们一起理解：你在这个网站上想卖什么、想解释什么、想突出什么？我们如何以最好的方式呈现它？那是一次很棒的经历，尤其是因为在网站上线前四周，Brian 来了，把一切都改了，重新开始。这其实是好事，因为我认为我们最终落地的版本比之前好得多。由于我们是一个小团队，我们总是能非常有效地与客户对接。我们举办了很多一对一的会议和访谈，我们实际上要求并期望客户投入大量精力，把他们所有的东西都抛给我们，因为我们需要尽可能多的信息来制定一个非常扎实的策略。

I feel like one of the biggest projects at Molly we collaborated with the studio called that everyone's familiar with. We worked with Brian Collins and Leland Maschmeyer and a bunch of other super talented people on their teams on a redesign of Collins. The way they always tell the story now that the website is live is like, we came in to pitch for this project and we were like, everybody's thinking about the web in the wrong way and is thinking about consumption of information on the web in the wrong way and we have our own approach of how we apply content consumption to all of the projects we work on and we will apply that not a template, but that methodology onto you. And they were extremely intrigued by that because they hadn't heard that type of approach before. For us it was this idea that the web worked no differently than the way you would use your phone or your computer. For us it was more an OS basically. So, consuming information on the web needed to be extremely simple and extremely efficient and we tried to highlight the most important things that made your company or your business successful and then anything else below that was progressively disclosed through patterns that you would find in on your iPhone or on your iPad. And that was I think distinctively different approach to how we looked at websites and how we looked at content in general online, which was also important because we worked on a lot of products as well. That to Collins was very interesting and we spent well over a year working with them on this website and churned out hundreds and hundreds of different layouts and really took them along for the journey of understanding what is it that you're trying to sell on this website or explain on this website and highlight on this website and how can we present that in the best possible way. So, that was like an amazing experience especially because like four weeks before launching the website, Brian came in and changed everything. Start over again, which is good because I think where we landed now is a lot better than where we were. Since we're a small team, we were able to always plug in very very effectively with our clients and like we just hosted a lot of one-on-ones and a lot of interviews with them and we really actually required and expected a lot of attention from the client like really throw everything they had at us because we needed as much information as possible to come up with a very sound strategy.

和 Brian Collins 合作一年，有什么见解或经验吗？

Any insights or lessons that came through working with Brian Collins for a year?

他身上有很多地方让他如此古怪又如此有才华。我们和他有过两次会议，一起审阅网站。我本身有字体排印的背景，但在这两次会议中——每次大概六个小时——我学到的字体排印知识比整个大学期间还多。因为他非常专注，毫不留情地简化复杂性。他会站在白板前，或者基本上就是站在投影仪前，看着网站，想把我们在这个网站上使用的字体大小减少到两种。

There's so many parts of him that make him so eccentric and so talented but we had these two sessions with him where we were reviewing the website and I think I come from a background of typography but in those two sessions they were each maybe like six hours long I think I learned more about typography than in my entire university years because he's at it at compression and relentless at reducing complexity like he would stand at the whiteboard or at basically at the projector and look at the website and he wanted to reduce the amount of font size that we were using for this website to two.

当时我们可能只有 12 个人在场，整个过程就是来回反复、近乎偏执地琢磨：如何把这些布局简化到它们想要表达的核心本质，同时仍然保持独特和有力。亲眼看他工作，那种感受极其深刻。一旦经历过那个过程，它就会一直留在你心里。现在我看每一个布局都会用同样的视角，去质疑页面上的每一个元素，试着理解它为什么必须在这里？这个组件和另一个组件之间是什么关系？有没有办法完全去掉它？如果不行，能不能为了某个特定目的缩小或放大它？他在这方面非常非常厉害。他也很擅长娱乐大家，这很好。

And we maybe had 12 on there at the time and it was this back and forth, relentless obsession between how can we simplify these layouts down to the core essence of what they're trying to say while still keeping them very unique and powerful. Watching him in action like that was extremely powerful to see. It sticks with you once you're through that process. Now I see every layout from that exact same lens and just really question every single element on the page and try to understand why does it need to be here? What's the relationship between this component and another component? Is there any way to remove it entirely, and if not, reduce or expand the size of this for a specific purpose. He's very, very good at that. He's also very good at entertaining, which is nice.

你说的“娱乐大家”具体指什么？

What do you mean by the entertaining piece?

我从他身上学到一点：教育客户或教育一屋子人，与娱乐一屋子人是有区别的。当你娱乐大家时，我觉得人们更愿意听你说话、跟随你的想法；而教育客户、同行或同事，往往容易显得有点居高临下。Brian 就有这样一种气场——当他走进一个房间，或者和我们一起工作时，我们和他一起办过很多演示之夜，他非常擅长让整个房间充满乐趣、保持灵感，用一句不太恰当的话说，就是让大家开心。每个人总是玩得很开心。

Something that I learned from him is there's this difference between educating a client or educating a room versus entertaining a room. When you're entertaining, I think people are more inclined to listen to you and follow your ideas, versus educating clients or peers or colleagues can often come across as more patronizing. Brian just had this aura of when he came into a room or when he worked with us on things. We hosted a lot of demo nights with him. He would be very good at just entertaining the room and keeping the room inspired. And for lack of a better term, just happy. Everybody was always having a lot of fun.

你有没有尝试过用一些实际的方法，在之后与其他客户的互动中应用这一点？

Were there practical ways that you tried to apply that in future interactions with other clients?

是的，当然。我觉得这是 Molly 运作的核心，也是我们在 Shopify 一起工作以及产品设计工作室运作的核心。这也是我们被 Shopify 收购的核心原因。如果你和一起工作的人不开心，那很少能产生非常好的创意产出。美国画家兼作家罗伯特·亨利有句话：‘人生的目标不是创造艺术，而是创造一种如此美好的生活，以至于艺术是不可避免的。’这个理念就是：你如何出场比你去做什么更重要。这又回到了团队构成，一直是我们哲学：最优秀的人对某件事充满热情，然后创造一个他们能玩得开心的环境。这是 Brian 和整个 Collins 团队真正努力做到的，也一直留在我们心里。

Yeah, definitely. I feel it's a core part of how Molly ran, a core part of how we work together at Shopify and how the product design studio runs. It's a core part of why we were acquired by Shopify. If you're not having fun with the people that you're working with, then I think that seldom produces very good creative output. There's this quote from Robert Henri, an American painter and writer, who said, 'The goal in life isn't to create art, but to create a life that is so wonderful that art is inevitable.' It's this idea of how you show up is just more important than what you show up to. That goes back to the team constellation, always our philosophy: the best people who are really passionate about something, and then an environment where they have fun. That was something Brian and the whole Collins team really worked on and that stuck with us.

那么，我想深入聊聊你们如何在 Shopify 创造一个让艺术不可避免的环境。也许先快速给大家一点背景，你能解释一下 Shopify 产品设计工作室是如何运作的，你们如何融入，以及如何适应更广泛的设计组织？

Well, I want to get into how you create an environment where art is inevitable at Shopify. Maybe just really quickly to give people a little bit of context, can you just explain how the Shopify product design studio works, how you plug in, how you fit into the broader design org?

Shopify 的产品设计工作室以两种方式运作。我们与产品组织并肩工作，产品组织的团队会带着想法、问题、理论以及他们想深入探讨的东西来找我们。我们对待工作室的方式类似于对待一个代理机构：我们会承接这些项目，界定项目范围，为这些团队正在做的事情注入一股能量，并与他们并肩工作——通常与他们的团队在特定问题上紧密交织。工作室的另一种运作方式是，我们会找到一些自己真正着迷的东西。可能是我们为自己和工作流程构建的内部软件，也可能是我们在公司里看到的、目前没有其他人关注或没有能力关注的事情。我们也会把这些项目带入工作室，几乎把它变成一项倡议，效果非常好。这非常有趣，因为它创造了大量的上下文。我们与众多不同的团队合作，涉及从结账、销售点、仪表盘、管理后台、Sidekick 到我们所有 AI 功能的方方面面，每个人都有不同的观点和视角，我们需要以不同的方式激发团队，以达到特定的成果。这非常有利于我们为团队构建好的东西。我们会构建内部工具或内部仪表盘来让我们的生活更轻松，而这些通常也会对组织中的其他人有用。这就形成了一个反馈循环：我们构建了某样东西，其他人也使用它，每个人都一起修补和协作。这基本上就是我们整个团队的运作方式。

The product design studio at Shopify works in two ways. We sit alongside the product organization and teams from the product organization come to us with ideas, with problems, with theories, with things they want to jam on. We treat the studio similar to how we would treat an agency in the way that we will take on these projects, we will scope these projects, and we will introduce a burst of energy into whatever these teams are working on and we'll work alongside them. Usually very, very intertwined with their teams on a specific problem. The other way the studio works is we find things that we get really obsessed about. That could be internal software that we're building for ourselves and our workflows. That could be something that we're seeing in the company that maybe nobody else is focusing on right now or has the ability to focus on, and we'll take those projects into our studio as well and create almost an initiative out of it, which has worked really well. It's super fun because it creates so much context. We work with so many different teams across such a multitude of surfaces from checkout to point of sale to the dashboard and the admin and sidekick and all of our AI functionalities, and everybody has a different opinion and different lens, and we need to juice our team in a different way to get to specific outcomes. That plays really nice into how we just build for our teams well. We'll build internal tools or internal dashboards to make our life easier, and usually that then lends itself useful to other people in the organization as well. That creates this feedback loop of we build something, somebody else uses it as well, and everybody tinkers and works together on it. But that's basically how our whole team operates.

我最近在 Twitter 上看到一些内部工具，我很好奇，甚至像 Artifact 这样的东西。那是工作室产出的吗？你们最近有哪些着迷的东西，一直在捣鼓的？

I've been seeing some of the internal tools on Twitter recently and I'm curious, even something like Artifact. Is that something that's coming out of the studio? What are some of the things that you've been obsessed with lately that you've been tinkering with?

Shopify 是一家远程优先的公司。我们默认远程办公，但也会在办公室聚集，尤其是在纽约，我们有一个设计实验室，目前就在那里工作，但本质上它是远程的。这意味着人们需要知道其他人在做什么，而 Artifact 是我们创建的一种非常简单、无摩擦的上传工作方式。问题是，我们有视频、Figma 文件、演示、以及各种 vibe coded 仪表盘的片段，所有这些不同的东西存在于不同的环境中，而 Artifact 是一个我们可以上传所有内容并同时查看的地方。它让跟进工作变得非常容易，也让审查工作变得非常容易。这正是我刚才说的。这是从团队和工作室内部自然产生的东西，然后得到了领导层的尊重、推动和保护，用一句不太恰当的话说，得到了资助，推广到了更广泛的组织。但这基本上就是整个公司的运作方式。每个人都是工具制造者。

Shopify is a remote-first company. We're remote by default, but we come together in offices, especially here in New York we have a design lab that we work on right now, but innately it's remote. That means that people need to be aware of what other people are working on, and Artifact was a way for us to create a really easy and frictionless way to just upload work. The thing is, we have videos and Figma files and demos and snippets of vibe coded dashboards, all these different pieces that live in different environments, and Artifact is a place we can just upload all of it and view it all at the same time. It makes staying up to date with the work really easy, and it makes reviewing work really easy as well. This is exactly like what I was talking about. This is something that innately came from the team and came from the studio, and then was respected and pushed and protected by leadership, funded, for lack of a better term, to push up to the broader organization. But that's how the whole company basically works. Everybody's a tool maker.

我想深入探讨一下，作为这股注入产品团队的能量，具体是什么样子的？我们能极其深入地聊聊你们是如何协作的吗？你们做了什么来培养这种团队创造力环境？你们带来的交付物到底是什么？

I want to dig into what it looks like to be this injection of energy through a product team. Can we just go absurdly deep into how you all collaborate? What are you all doing to foster this environment of creativity with a team? What the deliverables even are that you're bringing to the table?

一方面，我们团队协作的方式是，有一群专家，每个人都擅长非常具体的事情。我们有动效设计、产品设计、艺术指导、工程。每个人几乎都有特殊的技能。有时候我觉得你需要创造一个环境，让所有这些不同的技能和这些人感到足够舒适，从而能够茁壮成长。

On the one hand, the way we work together as a team is that there's a group of experts that are all very good at very specific things. We have motion design, we have product design, we have art direction, we have engineering. And everybody has almost like special skills. And sometimes I feel like you need to create an environment where all of those different skills and all those people feel comfortable enough to thrive in.

当你为人们创造这样的环境时，做出好作品就很容易。所以我们花大量时间关注细节，而之所以能关注细节，是因为团队里有人非常擅长微交互和动效。他们在艺术指导和产品设计上极其出色。我们尽量用最多的人聚焦在最少的事情上，以获得最佳产出。我有一位最大的导师，虽然他不一定知道我的存在，他叫 Greg Duncan，提出了“野花花园”这个概念——基本上就是说，如果你把一堆野花放在一起，那个野生花园的产出天生就比非野生花园更有趣。问题在于你必须创造一个环境，让这些不同的野花都能茁壮成长。我觉得每个人的天才都紧挨着他们的缺陷，每个人只擅长一件事。我们在工作室、在技术领域、在 Shopify 整体的工作，就是创造一个环境，让每个人都能在自己最擅长的事情上蓬勃发展，这样我们才能从团队和自己身上得到真正好的产出。这又回到 Robert Henri 的那句话：你必须创造一个让人乐于居住的世界。如果在这个世界或环境里生活是有趣的，那么创造艺术家就是必然的。这其实很容易。

And when you create that environment for people, it's easy to create good work. So we take a lot of time to focus on the details, but we're also able to focus on the details because we have people on the team who are very good at micro interactions and motion. They're obscenely good at art direction and product design. We try to focus on as few things as possible with the most amount of people to get the best output. One of my biggest mentors, I don't think he knows I exist, but his name is Greg Duncan, and he came up with the term 'wallet gardening,' which basically means if you put a bunch of wildflowers together, the output of that wild garden is innately more interesting than if it's not a wild garden. The issue is you have to create this environment in which those different wildflowers can thrive. I feel like everyone's genius is right next to their dysfunction, and everybody's good at one thing. Our job in the studio, in tech, and at Shopify in general is to create an environment where everybody can thrive at the thing that makes them really good, and that's how we get really good output out of our team and ourselves. It goes back to the Robert Henri quote: you have to be able to create a world that is fun to live in. If it's fun to exist in the world or environment, then creating artists is inevitable. It just becomes easy.

我有点好奇，Molly 的根基以及那种近乎代理机构的工作方式在 Shopify 内部保留了多少。听起来在某种意义上一切几乎都一样。你们就像一个横向的层级，产品团队可以随时调用。回想我自己做设计师的经历，我真的很希望能找你们帮忙做动效、提升创意，或者只是获得一个新视角。这听起来是一个非常有趣的架构。

I was kind of curious how much the Molly roots and almost that agency style way of working was persisting inside of Shopify, and it really sounds like everything in some sense is almost the same. You get to be this almost horizontal layer that product teams tap. Even thinking about my own experience as a designer, I would have loved to be able to tap you guys to get motion help or crank up the creativity or just get a fresh perspective. It sounds like a really interesting setup.

我们努力为 Shopify 做的每一件事注入正能量、活力和独特性。我觉得代理机构的模式帮助我们创建并维持了这样一个团队——几乎是一群“怪才”，他们一起工作，从各自独特的视角解决同一个问题。在我职业生涯早期，我和一位才华横溢的工程师 Jesper Vos 合作，他帮我安装了 Yael，她现在是我们团队的动效设计师。我们为一位摄影师做了一个作品集网站，最终获得了“当日最佳网站”、“当月最佳网站”，并让这位叫 Madeline Della 的摄影师一炮而红。我记得我们三个人之间的协同非常美妙：我专注于艺术指导、排版和布局；Yael 热衷于为我使用的各种字体制作动画和过渡效果；Jasper 负责把所有东西整合起来，让它在网页上呈现。但我们三人之间没有层级，也没有像过去瀑布流那样的交接流程——设计交给动效，动效交给工程，工程最终完成。那需要数周时间。我们的协作更像一个螺旋：我们互相围绕旋转，每个人对彼此的工作都有意见，我们不断演进，直到三个人都对作品非常满意，然后才发布。我认为这正是我们现在工作室的工作方式。项目几乎没有终点状态。它必须达到一个点，每个人都把自己在团队中最独特的部分贡献给了项目，然后它通常会达到一个你无法通过其他方式达到的状态。

We try to inject as much positivity, energy, and uniqueness into everything we work on at Shopify. I feel like the agency model helps us create and maintain that team of almost misfits that all work together and solve the same problem but from their specific lens. Earlier in my career, I was working with Jesper Vos, a talented engineer, and he helped me install Yael, who now works on our team as a motion designer. We worked on a portfolio for a photographer that ended up winning Website of the Day, Website of the Month, and blew up for this photographer called Madeline Della. I remember the synergy between the three of us was beautiful because I was focusing on art direction, typography, and layouts. Yael was really into animating and transitioning between all these different fonts that I was using. Jasper was in charge of putting it all together and making it exist on the web. But there was no hierarchy between the three of us. There was no handoff process like the old waterfall process—design hands off to motion, motion hands off to engineering, and engineering takes it home. That took weeks and weeks. It felt more like a helix. We were just spinning around each other, and everybody had notes on everybody else's work. We evolved it until the three of us were really happy with the work, and then we pushed it out. I think that's exactly how we work in our studio now. There is almost no end state to a project. It has to get to a point where everybody has given as much of what makes them unique in the team to the project, and then it'll usually be in a state that you otherwise couldn't get to.

我很喜欢“螺旋”这个意象。另外，你频繁提到动效和动画是你们探索的核心组成部分，这很有意思。你认为动效是否更像是你们团队核心 DNA 的一部分，甚至可能比传统的产品工作更重要？

I love the mental picture of the helix. It's also interesting how frequently you bring up motion and animation as a core component of what you all are exploring. Do you think that motion is more a part of the core DNA of what you all bring to the table, maybe more so than traditional product work?

100%。我认为动效可以暗示你所看内容的层级关系。比如我们建一个网站，你点击一个行动号召按钮，一个面板会覆盖在网站上。这时你对内容位置的认知就是：它在上面。这意味着如果你按 Escape 键，面板可能会退回去，你又回到主页。通过视图过渡将这样的动画可视化，让动效非常线性，向用户准确展示接下来会发生什么，这对用户理解正在发生的事情非常重要。2019 年人机界面团队有一个很棒的视频叫《设计好的界面》，它讲述了所有这些复杂性，以及动效如何展示层级。你利用动画来解释界面在做什么。这是理解一切的关键部分，它将强大的排版和强大的图层与丰富的情感结合在一起。当用户与产品和品牌互动时，它能唤起用户很多情感。

100%. I think that motion can hint at the hierarchy of the content you're looking at. So we would build a website, and you would click on a CTA, and a sheet would overlay itself over the website. Now your mental understanding of where that content lies is that it lies on top. So that means if I press Escape, maybe the sheet goes back, and you're back on the main page. Being able to visualize an animation like that through a view transition and making the motion very linear, showing the user exactly what's happening next, is very important for users to understand what's happening. There's a great video from the Human Interface team from 2019 called 'Design Good Interfaces' that speaks about all these complexities and the idea of how motion shows hierarchy. You use animation to basically explain what the interface is doing. It's a key part of understanding everything, and it just brings together strong typography and strong layers with a lot of emotion. It can evoke a lot of emotion in users when they're interacting with products and brands.

我想继续深入探讨你们为培养创造力和通过设计实现真正差异化所做的一切。我很好奇，有没有一个例子可以让我们看到你们协作的样子？

I want to keep pushing on everything you're doing to foster creativity and to truly differentiate with design. I'm curious, is there an example we could point to that would shine a light on what collaboration looks like for you all?

我们即将推出 shopify.design，这是一个内部项目，旨在展示 Shopify 的设计以及整个组织中才华横溢的人们。我们将所有内容整合到一个网站和一个品牌中。这个品牌从 Figma 开始，我们做了很多布局和修改，理解了我们要构建的结构和标志，然后很快转化为关于品牌如何运动的动效研究，接着又转化为 J Town 和团队正在开发的一个五编码工具。这个工具基本上成了一个编辑器，用来模拟动画的效果，而这又成了我们现在正在构建的网站的基础。所以，这就是我们的理念：我们在团队内部构建的每一样东西，都会在别人脑海中触发别的东西，然后他们利用自己天生擅长的东西去实现。

We're about to launch shopify.design, which is an internal project we've been running to shine a light on design at Shopify and the talented people we have in the whole organization. We're bringing all of that together in one website and one brand. That brand started off in Figma. We did a bunch of layouts and alterations, understood the structure of what we're building and the mark, and then it translated very quickly into motion studies of how the brand would move, which then translated into a five-coded tool that J Town and the team were working on. That tool basically became an editor to emulate what the animation was doing, and that then became the foundation for the website we're building for it right now. So it's this idea that everything we build inside our team triggers something else in somebody else's brain, and then they use what they're innately good at.

可能是动效、编码、改动，或者产品，只要能为那个使命或项目做贡献就行。我觉得那是我们在 Shopify 以来做过的最有趣的项目之一。它在内部反响非常好，每个人都为之着迷，这绝对是对团队群星闪耀的认可——不只是我们团队，更是对如何实现高影响力产出的认可。我反复想起 Snowflake 的 CEO Frank Slootman 说过的一句话：收窄攻击面。你不想让你的团队一英里宽、一英寸深，那会扼杀创造力，也会扼杀让拥有特定技能的人能够成功的环境。你要让团队保持紧密，把大家聚在一起，多做序列而非并行。一个接一个地做。我们先一起做这个，然后再一起做下一个。每个人都团结在一起，互相激励，共同工作，而不是各自为政，同时做多个项目。

Could be motion, could be coding, could be alteration, could be product to contribute to that mission or to contribute to that project. I think that was one of the funnest projects we've worked on since we've been at Shopify. It's being received really well internally, everybody's obsessed with it, and it's definitely a nod to the constellation of the team. Not just our team but a nod to how to get to these high impact outputs. The thing I keep coming back to is this quote from Frank Slootman, the CEO of Snowflake: narrow the plane of attack. You don't want to be a mile wide and an inch deep with your team. That's how you lose creativity. That's how you lose the environment where somebody with a specific skill set can be successful. You want to keep the team together, keep them really close, and sequence more than you parallel. Sequence one after the other. We'll work on this together, then we work on the next thing together. Everybody sticks together, inspires each other, and works together, versus everybody out on their own doing multiple projects at the same time.

我想再深入聊聊这一点，因为“序列”这个概念很有意思，尤其是在新的 Shopify.design 的背景下，因为涉及那么多利益相关者和相关方。当你在创造一件很可能很多人都有发言权或想表达意见的东西时，你如何收窄攻击面？有创意是一回事，但在创意在组织内推进的过程中保持创造力，完全是另一回事。

I want to go even deeper on that piece because the sequencing thing is interesting, especially through the context of a new Shopify.design, because there are so many stakeholders and interested parties. How do you narrow the plane of attack when you're creating something that presumably a lot of people have a say in or want to voice some type of opinion? It's one thing to have creative ideas, but it's a totally other thing to maintain that creativity as it progresses through an org.

你从一个标记、一个情绪板、一个愿景、一个想法以及你想创造的世界开始。我认为我们非常擅长把团队里所有人聚在一起，哪怕只是营造一种“这就是我们要建的东西”的氛围或感觉，让大家兴奋起来。如果你能让人们对你在做的事情感到兴奋，你就能开始创造势头。这股势头会帮助你顺利推进，然后你一个接一个地处理项目的每个部分，带着大家一起走。这对我们来说非常重要。这些项目有很多对接人和利益相关者。最重要的是带着他们一起走，向他们展示我们是如何得出这个结论的、为什么得出这个结论、我们认为这会如何积极影响我们共同的目标，然后说服他们。一旦他们被说服、站在你这边，作为一个整体推进就会容易得多。从某种意义上说，这是一种非常健康的项目处理方式。上周我们看了这个网站的一个布局，我们当时的想法是：“这真的很好，但也该发布了。它必须走向世界，在公司内部发布，被我们、利益相关者、同事们消化吸收，然后我们才能继续改进。”这又回到了我在 agency 和 in-house 工作的核心区别。在 agency，它是一个更有限的概念：和客户一起做的网站必须在某个特定日期上线，发布后就是握手告别，你基本不会再见到他们。这完全不是我们在 Molly 的工作方式。为客户发布网站只完成了 50%。发布之后，真正的挑战才开始：测试布局、组件、策略。很多时候，包括我们当时的自有网站，我们会有多达 30 个版本同时在线，持续进行 A/B 测试、多臂老虎机测试，测试网站及其层级结构在市场中的表现，找出什么有效、什么合理。我对轮播组件应该放在哪里的假设，只是我个人的或工作室的假设，并不代表市场或用户会如何反应。所以，在网站或仪表盘上重新排列内容，对我们来说是非常重要的一环，用来弄清楚我们做事的顺序和原因。这也是我们与许多其他数字 agency 的区别之一：我们将产品思维背景应用到网站上。我们以同样的方式看待网站和产品。

You start with a mark, a mood board, a vision, an idea, and a world you want to create. I think we're very good at bringing together all the people on our team to create even if it's just a mood or a vibe of 'this is what we want to build' and get people excited. If you can get people excited about what you're doing, you can start to create momentum. That momentum helps you flow through, and then you tackle every piece of the project one after the other, bringing people along for the journey. That's a very important part to us. We have a lot of counterparts and stakeholders on these projects. The most important thing is just bringing them along, showing them the thinking behind how we landed on this, why we landed on this, how we think this positively impacts what we're all trying to achieve, and selling them over. Once they're sold over and on your side, it becomes a lot easier to progress as a unit and move forward. In some ways, that's a very healthy approach to projects. We looked at a layout for this website last week, and we were all in the mindset of 'this is really good, but it's also time. This has to go out into the world, be launched inside our company, be digested and metabolized by us, the stakeholders, our colleagues, and then we can continue working on it.' That goes back to my main point about working in agencies versus in-house. In agency, it's more of a finite idea: the website we worked on with the client has to launch on a specific date, go out, then it's goodbye and a handshake, and you never really see them again. That's not how we approach work at Molly at all. Launching a website for a client was 50% of the way there. After launch, the real challenge began: testing the layouts, components, strategy. Often, including our own website at the time, we'd have up to 30 versions live, continuously AB testing, multi-arm bandit testing the website and its hierarchy against the market, figuring out what stuck and made sense. My assumption of where I want the carousel component to be is a personal assumption, or the studio's. That doesn't mean that's how the market or users will react. So reshuffling content on a website or dashboard was a really important part for us to figure out why and in what order we're doing things. This was part of what separated us from a lot of other digital agencies: more of a product thinking background that we applied to websites. We thought about websites and products in the same way.

那在 Shopify 应该很契合，还有 Tobi 对文化的影响。这让我更好奇了：你在职业生涯中和很多了不起的人共事过，你也提到了和 Brian 或其他客户合作如何塑造了你、让你作为设计师带来了什么。你现在能看到 Tobi 如何影响你对待设计实践的方式吗？

And probably fit in quite well then at Shopify, and more of the impact that Tobi has had on the culture as well. That makes me even more curious: you've worked with some pretty incredible people over the course of your career, and you've already mentioned different ways that working with people like Brian or other clients has shaped you and what you've brought to the table as a designer. Are you able to already see the way that Tobi is rubbing off or influencing the way you approach the practice of design?

他处理一切事情的方式都带着一种天生的视角：极度痴迷，对任何正在发生的事情都充满好奇。这很解放，因为它让你能够构思、迭代，并理解所有新出现的工具，尤其是在我们正经历的这波 AI 热潮中。但更重要的是，我认为功劳尤其要归于我们的首席设计官 Karri Arrocha，他创造了一种非常美好的文化，让我们得以在其中存在和工作。他处理工作的方式，以及 Tobi 的方式，与我们喜欢的方式非常契合。我们的产出非常高，因为我们试图在最短的时间内尽可能多地构思和迭代想法，只是为了达到一个终点，让我们能看到自己做出的许多不同东西。然后从那里，你可以挑选线索或渠道，深入探索。我认为，在一家创始人如此深入工作的公司工作，也值得一提。Tobi 整天都在写代码，沉浸在工作中。

The way he approaches everything is through this innate lens of being hyper obsessed and just curious about everything and anything that is going on at all times. That's liberating because it allows you to ideate, iterate, and understand all the new tools coming out, especially in this AI boom we're working in right now. But more so, I think the credit goes especially to Karri Arrocha, our chief design officer, who creates a very beautiful culture in which we're allowed to exist and work. There's something in the way he approaches work and in the way Tobi approaches that resonates a lot with how we like to approach things. Our output is really high because we try to iterate and ideate through as many ideas as possible in the fastest amount of time, just to get to an endpoint where we can look at a lot of different things we've worked on. Then from there, you can pick strings or channels to follow and fall deeper into. I think there's also something to be said about working at a company where the founder is so deep in the work. Tobi's in the code all day and in the work.

我看到那些提交图了。

I've been seeing the commit graphs.

是啊，提交图简直疯狂。

Yeah, the commit graphs are crazy.

AI 显然在很多方面加速了这一切，但我不希望在一个创始人和领导者对设计和 AI 的现状不像他们那样痴迷的公司工作。在 Shopify，我们团队内部工作的主要方式就是通过工作本身。我们通过工作来管理彼此，通过工作来展现自己，通过工作来展示成果，通过工作来定义身份。工作就是你带到会议上的东西。我们每天早上和团队开站会，每个人都带着工作成果和进展来。我们彼此非常坦诚，通常我是那个被批评的人。但理想情况下，团队成员会给你很多反馈，你和他们一起解决问题。然后第二天或几小时后，你带着更多想法和迭代回来。这就是不断为 Shopify 的使命做贡献，我们都非常投入。

AI is obviously accelerating a lot of this for us, but I wouldn't want a work company where the founders and leaders weren't as obsessed with the current state of affairs in design and AI as they are. The main way we like to work within the team at Shopify in general is just through the work. We manage each other through the work. We show up through the work. We show each other the work. We identify through the work. The work is what you bring to meetings. We have a standup with our team every morning. Everybody shows up with work and what they've worked on. And we're brutally honest with each other. Usually I'm the one who gets in trouble. But ideally people on the team have a lot of feedback for you and you just work through it with them together. And then you show up the next day or a few hours later with more ideas and more iterations. There's just this constant contributing to the mission of Shopify that we're all really into.

过去一年，Dive Club 让我非常清楚一件事：设计实践正在改变。旧的反馈流程在当今世界已经行不通了。所以我激动地宣布，InFlight 正式进入公开测试阶段。它是我一直想要的反馈工具，专为 AI 速度的世界而建。我可以分享原型，通过视频演示提供背景，InFlight 让我轻松获得继续前进所需的精确反馈。无论是投票选择方向，还是为发布新想法开绿灯，所有这些都可以通过一个链接完成，我可以把它丢进 Slack，或者分享给高级用户来测试新原型。我每天都在用 InFlight，它彻底改变了我分享工作的方式。所以我很期待你们试用这个产品。如果想聊聊，可以发邮件到 rid@inflight.co。这些新能力如何影响了你们的运作方式？你能谈谈吗？你提到了 vibe coding 工具，它们对你们的设计实践有什么影响？

One thing that Dive Club has made abundantly clear to me over the last year is that the practice of design is changing. And the old process of getting feedback just doesn't quite cut it in today's world. That's why I'm excited to announce that InFlight is officially in open beta. It's the feedback tool that I've always wanted and it's built for a world that moves at the speed of AI. So, I can share my prototypes, give context in video walkthroughs, and InFlight makes it easy to get the exact feedback that I need to move forward. Whether it's voting on directions or maybe even getting the green light to ship a new idea. And all of this is available in a single link that I can drop in the Slack or maybe even share with power users to test out a new prototype. I use InFlight every day and it's totally transformed the way that I share work. So, I'm excited for you to try the product. And if you ever want to jam about it, just email me at rid at inflight.co. How has all these new capabilities impacted the way that you all are operating? Like, can you talk a little bit and you mentioned vibe coding tools, but how has that influenced the practice of design for you?

影响巨大。这是一个巨大的转变，巨大的影响，也是一个巨大的解锁。我觉得我们作为设计师通过新技术——尤其是目前的 Opus 4.6 和 Codex——展现自己的方式非常迷人，看着也很有趣。这并不意味着我们偏离了让我们成功、独特和优秀的东西。我们不会称之为泳道，但我们坚持使用 Figma、After Effects 和 Photoshop 这些根深蒂固的工具来达成特定成果和想法。但转而使用智能体来达到下一个水平，这很迷人。回到 Shopify 设计的例子，打造整个品牌背后的动效非常独特，其中投入了很多独特性。想出一个工具来复制那种动效本身就很难，但如果没有它，我们不可能做到。我们输出工作和组合原型的方式已经为公司整体彻底改变了。目前有数据显示，50% 的设计师一直在使用 AI 工具。实际上，在 Shopify 的入职流程中，作为设计师，你必须向主分支提交至少两个拉取请求。

Immensely. It's an immense shift. It's an immense impact and it's a huge unlock. I feel like the way we're able to show up as designers through the new technology, especially Opus 4.6 and Codex at the moment, is just fascinating and really fun to see. This doesn't mean that we stray away from what makes us successful and what makes us unique and what makes us good. We have — I wouldn't call them swim lanes, but we stick to Figma, After Effects, and Photoshop and all these very ingrained tools to get to specific outcomes and to get to specific ideas. But then switching and using agents to get to that next level is fascinating. Going back to the Shopify design example, there was a lot that went into the uniqueness of making that the motion behind that whole brand is very, very unique. Coming up with a tool to replicate that motion was difficult enough to do, but it wouldn't have been possible if we didn't have. The way we're able to output work and the way we're able to put prototypes together has entirely shifted for the whole company. I think there's data at the moment that shows that 50% of all designers are using AI tools all the time. Actually, in our onboarding to Shopify, you have to commit at least two pull requests as a designer to the main branch.

真的吗？哦，那太酷了。

Really? Oh, that's cool.

这是我们在 Shopify 与生俱来的责任，利用手头的工具来完成我们的工作。

It's an innate responsibility we all have at Shopify to use the tools at our disposal for the work that we do.

听众心里可能有一种张力。我也有这种感觉：一方面，我们经常谈论 AI 编码工具如何缩小了我们的游乐场，把我们推向一个更小的频谱子集，我们就在这个小区域里解决问题，而你谈到的很多事情都很清楚——你能够快速构思，把很多东西扔到墙上，这长期以来是你运作的核心部分。甚至回到 Columns 网站，制作了数百个版本。跟我谈谈这种张力吧。当你在代码中玩耍而不是在设计师更熟悉的东西中时，你如何保持同样的创造力水平？

There's a tension that maybe exists in somebody who's listening's mind. I kind of have it in my mind where on one hand we talk a lot about how AI coding tools almost narrow our playgrounds and they kind of push us down a smaller subset of the spectrum and we're solutionizing in this little area where a lot of the things that you're talking about is clear. You're able to just crank through concepts and just throw a bunch of things at the wall and that's kind of a core part of how you have operated for a long time. Even going back to you know, talk about the Columns website and making hundreds of versions of what this could look like. Talk to me a little bit about that tension. Like how do you maintain the same levels of creativity when you are playing in code rather than something that feels a little bit more familiar as a designer?

这是个重要的问题。我不会说挣扎，但我们在团队内部确实讨论很多。一方面，你想理解、消化和吸收所有新工具。比如我个人，今年已经向 GitHub 提交了 60-70 次。今年之前我一次都没提交过。我以前根本不知道这些东西怎么运作，现在我在克隆仓库、构建测试框架、使用所有新工具。比如我在 Telegram 上有一个会叫我的 open claw bot。另一方面，我觉得尤其是作为创作者、创意人，你不想失去那个让我走到今天的东西——显然不是编码工具，因为它们当时根本不存在。所以，用个不太恰当的说法，我觉得回归本源，用你知道怎么用的工具来解决问题，绝对不是坏事。我不认为我们应该只依赖 AI 工具来为我们解决问题。但如果你知道自己想做什么，如果你理解技术和限制以及它们如何帮助你，那么打开 Cursor 或终端，切换到最新模型之一，进入计划模式，向它精确解释你想做什么，然后看着它执行，这是我职业生涯中最神奇的体验之一。它极大地解放了我，因为你不需要说服动效设计师或开发者陪你走完原型之旅，再去说服你的团队或更大的组织。我觉得这往往是我们一直努力的方向，也是我们在设计领域如此独特的原因——你想积累人才，让团队中的成员一起创造出非常漂亮的原型。我们以前用 Origami、After Effects、Figma 和 Figma 中的动效以及所有这些不同的工具来做。现在用代码来做要容易得多。

It's an important question. It's something that I wouldn't say struggle but that we very much discuss especially within our team a lot. On the one hand, you want to understand and digest and metabolize all of the new tools that are coming out. Like me personally, I've committed to GitHub 60-70 times this year. I haven't committed a single time before this year. I didn't know how any of this really worked and here I am cloning repos and building harnesses and working through with all of the new tools. Like I have an open claw bot on Telegram that calls me. On the other hand, I feel like especially as creators, as creatives, you don't want to lose the thing that got me to this point in time right now obviously wasn't coding tools because they just didn't exist. So, for lack of a better term, I feel like going back to your roots and using tools that you know how to use to solve problems is definitely not a bad thing. I don't think we should only rely on AI tools to solve our problems for us. But if you have an idea of what you want to do, if you understand the technology and the constraints and how they can help you, then opening up Cursor or Terminal and switching to one of the newest models and going into plan mode and explaining to it exactly what you wanted to do and watching it go off is some of the most magical experiences I've had so far in my career and it's unlocked me a bunch because you don't have to persuade a motion designer or a developer to come along with you on a journey to get to a prototype to then convince maybe your group or the larger organization. I feel like that's oftentimes what we've always been working towards and what makes us so unique in the design field is you want to accumulate and you want to have players on your team that can all together create really beautiful prototypes. We used to do that with Origami and with After Effects and Figma and motion in Figma and all of these different tools. That is a lot easier to do with code at the moment.

你可以把 Cursor 接入 Xcode，然后开始开发商店应用的新版本，这在以前是做不到的。所以我觉得，我在我们团队以及各个团队的设计师身上看到的是，它极大地释放了每个人的潜力，创造了更多的产出，进而引发更多反馈，最终累积成对所有人更好的成果。

You can plug Cursor into Xcode and start working on a new version of the shop app, and that just wasn't available before. So I feel like what I'm seeing a lot with our team and with designers on all these different teams is that it's unlocking everyone a ton, creating so much more output, which creates more reactions, and that all accumulates to better output for everyone.

你显然已经被 AI 彻底“洗脑”了。你甚至都搭好了那个 open claw Telegram。我觉得还有一点很重要：你做这件事才大概 60 天。我们说的是你投入代码库还不到 60 天。所以从大局来看，你并没有比那些正在听、可能知道这事很重要但还没迈出那一步的人领先多少。那么，在过去 60 天左右的时间里，你学到了哪些东西，你觉得其他还在观望的设计师可以从中受益？

You've definitely been AI pilled. You even have the open claw Telegram set up. I think it's also important to highlight that you've been doing this for like 60 days. We're talking about less than 60 days of committing to the code base. So you're not that far ahead in the grand scheme of things than somebody who's listening who maybe knows it's important but hasn't taken those steps yet. So what are some things you've learned in the last 60 or so days that you think other designers on the sidelines could benefit from?

这又回到了好奇心的概念——只要去用这些工具，并从它们那里获得灵感。如果你以前没用过智能体或这类模型，那就去用。订阅一个套餐，然后想一个你想做的东西。我觉得很多时候，尤其是作为设计师，每个人手头都有项目在做。你完全可以打开电脑，进入 Figma，里面有些东西你可能需要一个工程师或一整个工程师团队或动效设计师来处理。把它扔进 Claude Code，让它去尝试解决这个问题，看看它输出什么。这是每个人都必须掌握和学习的技能。我建议大家不要害怕。只管开始用这些工具。当你开始使用它们，并逐渐积累关于它们实际运作方式的背景知识和认知时，你就会更容易理解它们、信任它们，并更好地与它们协作。我觉得我在短时间内进步很大，但我身边也有一个非常强大的团队，他们激励我、帮助我、推动我。我们主要是在线下一起工作，所以大家都坐在一起，总是一起做事。拍拍别人的肩膀说“嘿，我需要搭个 API 之类的，我不知道怎么做”要容易得多。他们会说：“哦，别担心。你可以在那边找到，或者问你的机器人。直接问它就行。”工具天生就有耐心。这是你遇到过的最有耐心的老师。

Again, it comes back to the idea of curiosity and being able to just use these tools and get inspired by them. If you haven't used an agent or one of these models before, just use them. Get on a subscription plan and figure out something you want to build. I feel like a lot of the time, especially as designers, everybody's working on a project right now. You can literally open your computer, go into Figma, there's something open in Figma that you probably need an engineer or a whole team of engineers or motion designers to work on. Throw it into Claude Code and let it have a go at the problem and see what it outputs. It's a skill that everybody has to pick up and learn. I would advise people to just not be afraid of it. Just start using the tools. As you start using them and build more context and awareness of how they actually work, it's a lot easier to understand them, trust them, and work better with them. I think I've gotten really far in a short amount of time, but I also have a very strong team around me who motivate me, help me, push me. We work primarily in person, so everybody's sitting next to each other and we're always working on things together. It's so much easier to tap someone on the shoulder and say, 'Hey, I need to set up an API or something. I don't know how to do that.' And they say, 'Oh yeah, don't worry about that. You can find that over here or ask your bots. Just ask it.' Tools are innately patient. This is the most patient teacher you will ever have.

嗯。

Mhm.

截个桌面错误状态的图，扔回终端，告诉它“我不明白这里发生了什么”。它很可能就能解决问题。

Screenshotting your desktop with the error state and throwing that back into terminal and telling it, 'I don't understand what's happening here.' It probably solves the issue.

一天轻松 30 次。

That 30 times a day easily.

对，你截个图发回去，它就能理解发生了什么、哪里出错了，然后你还可以让它给你解释。我一直这么做。比如在它动手之前，让它先解释一下它打算做什么以及为什么。这经常能帮我理解它正在做的事情的复杂性。

Yeah, and you screenshot it and send it back, and it understands what's happening, what's going wrong, and then you can have it explain it to you too. I do this all the time. Like before you do this, explain to me what you're going to do and why. And that often helps me understand the complexity of what it's doing.

我很欣赏你把它说得这么平易近人，因为我——昨天有人给我发消息说：“你知道有什么好的 Claude Code 教程吗？”我说：“你不明白。”你完全可以把第一个提示写成：“我不知道你是什么，也不知道我能做什么或该做什么。我对代码一无所知，但我有个想法。你能不能跟我聊聊，和 Claude 合作把一个想法变成现实是什么样的？”然后它就会带你走到那一步。你可能得消耗一些空消息和随机的截图，但就连我也经常截个终端截图贴进去，然后只说一句“然后呢？”说到底，我想说的是——

I appreciate how approachable you made it there because I've been like—yesterday somebody messaged me and they're like, 'You know, do you have a good Claude Code tutorial?' I'm like, 'You don't understand.' And you can literally have your first prompt be like, 'I have no idea what you are or what I can do or what to do. I don't know anything about code, but I have this idea. Can you just talk to me about what it looks like to collaborate with Claude to bring an idea to life?' And it will get you there. You might have to pay some air messages in and some random screenshots, but the amount of times even I take a screenshot of a terminal, paste it in there and just say, 'Now what?' If anything, what I'm trying to get at—

Claude Code 的上手教程就在 Claude Code 里。

The onboarding for Claude Code is open in Claude Code.

就像——

Like—

打开它，开始跟它说话，基本上就是开始互动，和它来回对话。

Open it and start talking to it, and start basically interacting and having a conversation with it back and forth.

我现在正在做一个演示——我已经过了那个阶段，不再试图说得特别具体。有时候，如果你和工具处在正确的心态或我现在的这种心流里，我跟它说话更像是在跟一个工程师说话。比如：“我不喜欢现在这种感觉。我们能换个方法吗？”然后它会给我列出一堆：“你为什么不喜欢？你想让它更干脆一点，还是更有弹性一点，或者你不喜欢它动画进入的方式？”很多时候，我还会让它如果对我的提示不确定就问我澄清性问题，因为我可能会东拉西扯，或者给工具发一条语音备忘录，然后让它把我想法用澄清性问题的方式反馈给我。这真的很有帮助。不是要在这里推销其他工具，但给听众推荐一下 Agentation——一个很棒的工——

I'm working on a demo right now for something—I've gotten past this point now where I'm not even trying to be hyper specific. I can sometimes, if you're in the right mindset with the tool or in the flow I'm in right now, I'm talking to it more like how I would speak to an engineer. Like, 'I don't like how this feels right now. Can we work on a different approach?' And then it'll give me a list of like, 'Why don't you like it? Do you want to make it snappier, or do you want to make it more bouncy, or do you not like the way that it animates in?' Often times I'll also ask it to ask me clarifying questions if it's unsure of my prompt, because I'll ramble or send a voice note into the tool, and then I'll have it spit back basically my idea to me with clarifying questions. That really helps. Not to plug other tools here, but Agentation for the listeners—fantastic tool that you can—

对，它很厉害。

Yeah, it's a big deal.

你可以让它运行。它是指哪打哪，对于 UI 设计来说，它非常擅长微调，真正帮你打磨细节。我以前只是截图然后圈出来说：“嘿，这个按钮需要移到这边”或“这个字体需要小一点”。Agentation 是一个很棒的工，基本上能帮你解决这个问题。

You can tell it to run it. It's point and shoot, and that is for UI design it's very good at fine-tuning and really helping you work out the details. I used to just screenshot things and then highlight, 'Hey, this button needs to be over here or this font needs to be smaller.' Agentation is a fantastic tool that basically helps you solve that.

现在 Twitter 信息流给我提供的一种新价值是：别人学到东西，我就把那条推文抓过来放进 Claude，然后说：“嘿，研究一下这个。有没有什么我应该调整的，或者有什么我应该学习的，或者有什么我应该贡献到 markdown 文件里的？”你甚至不需要深究所有细节。我经常直接把推文喂给 Claude，问：“这个相关吗？这个相关吗？我们是不是该从这里偷点东西？”仅仅通过粘贴推文，我就调整了很多工作方式。

A new type of value that the Twitter feed is providing to me now is just people learning something, and then I just grab the tweet and put it into Claude and be like, 'Hey, look into this. Is there something that I should be tweaking, or is there something that I should be learning, or something I should be contributing to like a markdown file?' You don't even have to dig all the way into the details. The amount of times I just feed Claude tweets like, 'Is this relevant? Is this relevant? Should we steal something here?' And I've tweaked so many things about the way that I work just from pasting in tweets.

这再次向像你这样一直在使用模型的人展示了这些模型的能力。我想我之前跟你提过，我们在假期里用 vibe coding 做了一个很小的工具——J 让我创建一系列连续的图片，它们会循环播放。就像一个我们想发布的年终回顾。我们让它跑起来了，效果很好。我们成功发布了素材。但几周后，我又需要它做别的事情，可我们当时那个工具挂了。

Again, it shows to someone like you who's been using the models the capabilities of these models. I think I brought this up earlier to you, but we vibe coded this really small tool over the holidays—J telling me just to create a sequence of images back-to-back and they would just cycle through. It's like an end-of-year recap that we wanted to post. And we got it running and it worked really well. We were able to post our asset. And then a few weeks later, I needed it for something else again, but the tool that we had at the time was down.

所以，我把整条推文截了个图，扔进 Opus，让它从头为我重新构建了一遍。现在它成了我自己的那个工具版本。它完美运行，一次就搞定，我直接就能用。我觉得这也说明了我们正在经历的“一次性软件”和“情境化软件”与大型科技软件之间的范式转变。我们正在进入一个世界，在那里你可以为自己的特定工作流程构建工具。

So, I just screenshotted the whole tweet, threw it into Opus, and had it rebuild it for me from scratch again. And now it was my version of that tool. It worked perfectly. It one-shotted it, and I could just use it. So, it also I think says a little bit about that whole paradigm of throwaway software and contextual software versus large-tech software, which we're experiencing right now. And we're just entering a world where you'll be able to build tools for your specific workflow.

这本身就是一种新的创造力，你知道吗？我们谈论的很多创造力都集中在输出上，但我发现，在针对某个特定挑战时，我的设计过程本身就有很多创造性的机会。因为你可以朝很多不同的方向走。也许我构建一个工具，也许我尝试一种完全不同的方式向模型提供上下文。这就像是一系列需要解决的问题，甚至在我开始处理实际的设计挑战之前，而这个过程对我来说非常富有生命力。

Which is a new creativity in itself, you know? Like, so much of the creativity that we're talking about is in the output, but what I'm finding is so many creative opportunities in what my design process could look like for this given challenge. Because it's like, you can go in so many different directions. Maybe I build a tool. Maybe I try a totally different way of feeding context to the models. Like, it's like a set of problems to solve before I even get to work on the actual design challenge that is proven to be quite life-giving for me.

我们作为创意人员，过去是用对工具的掌握程度来衡量的。你对 After Effects 或 Origami 或任何这些工具理解得越好，无论好坏，都会让你在同龄人和组织中的排名更高或更低，而不是看你使用工具背后的想法，对吧？我觉得现在我们正在进入一个世界，每个人的设计过程都变得更具情境化。而以前，每个人都必须以相同的方式打开工具，因为工具是以特定方式构建的，其架构和层级结构始终如一。我每次打开 Figma 只用四个功能。我不需要那个工具带来的一半复杂性。所以，一个更轻量级的版本可能更适合我，对吧？如果不存在这样的版本，你就必须理解并应对当今工具的复杂性，然后以特定方式使用它们来获得你想要的输出。我觉得我们现在看到的是人们在创建自己的工作流程。这本身就是极致的创造力。构建一套工具，并以你想要的方式将它们串联起来以获得输出，这看起来非常酷，它打开了所有新的可能性和大门。我认为人们对 AI 工具普遍过于消极，很多人对此持怀疑和担忧态度。我是一个坚定的乐观主义者。我尽量从积极的角度看待大多数事情。这些工具让我能做以前做不到的事情，加速了我执行甚至消化自己想法的速度。比如，我不必去找别人合作这个项目。我可以自己更快地做出一个原型，然后展示给一群人看。这可能会激励那些人加入进来。

We were measured as creatives by our ability to understand the tools. The better you were at understanding After Effects or Origami or any of these tools, for better or worse, ranked you higher or lower between your peers and in an organization versus I guess the idea behind why you were using the tool, right? And I feel like right now we're entering this world where the design process for everyone is becoming way more contextual. Versus before, everybody has to open up the tool in the same way because the tool is just built in a specific way and the architecture and hierarchy of how the tool is created is always in the same way. I use four things in Figma every time I open Figma. I don't need half of the complexity that that tool brings. So, a more lightweight version of that tool would be probably better for me to use, right? If that doesn't exist, you have to understand and work your way through the complexity of today's tooling and then use them in a specific way to get to the output that you want. And I feel like what we're seeing right now is people creating their own workflows. That alone is as creative as you can get. Building a set of tools and stringing them together in a way you want them strung together to get to your output is insanely cool to see and it's like opening up all these new possibilities and doors, which I think people get too negative about tools in general about AI and I think a lot of people are very skeptical and worried about all of this stuff. I'm an avid optimist. I try to see most things from a lens of positivity and like these tools are allowing me to do so much more than I could do before and are accelerating the pace at which I'm allowed to execute and just sometimes also just metabolize my own ideas. Like I don't have to go to somebody else to ask them to work on this project with me. I can get to a prototype that I can then show to a group of people way faster by myself. And that then might be inspiring enough for those people to get on board.

你说的很多话让我觉得，限制因素其实只是想法。如果我们能像你说的那样快速产出那么多成果，那么在一个组织内，区分真正优秀设计师的主要因素之一可能就是：你是否能成为一个想法的源泉？你是否能定期在站会、Creed 或任何接触点上拿出新东西？

A lot of what you're saying makes me think that the limiting factor is honestly just ideas. Like if we're able to crank through that much more output like you're talking about, maybe one of the main things that separates the truly great designers inside of an org is can you actually just be this well of ideas? Like can you have something new to show up with on a regular basis at these stand-ups or at Creed or whatever your touch points are.

我总是有很多想尝试的东西，或者我正在思考的东西，或者我看到的——尤其是在 Twitter 上，或者只是消费信息、读书、读文章，或者看到人们创建的所有工具。那句名言“像艺术家一样偷师”——我就是通过复制平面设计来学习平面设计的。那是我们必须做的主要事情，也是我努力去做的。顺便说一句，对于职业生涯可能还比较年轻的听众来说，当你看到非常喜欢、非常漂亮的东西时，你能做的最好的事情就是尝试重新创建它。比如，把这个屏幕截图放到 Figma 里，重新构建它。试着找到正确的字体，如果可能的话找到正确的素材，但重新构建你看到的那个屏幕，以理解其中的复杂性和构成。现在对我来说，同样的事情也适用于人们发布的这些工具。比如，人们用 open cloth box 做了很多很酷的事情，对吧？每次我打开任何社交媒体资料，我都会想：“好吧，我现在有九个新想法要喂给我的机器人。”或者这个东西有四个新的动画效果，我现在想试试。或者这个人组合东西的方式，现在你有了智能体——数百个为你工作的智能体，可以做所有这些事情。我觉得，嗯，我不知道。Toby 总是说，AI 把一些人变成了 100 倍效率，而另一些人则停留在原地。我觉得事实就是如此。我认为 AI 正在赋能那些有主动性、想要构思、想要行动、想要迭代的人，让他们以更快的速度前进。我认为这对我们所有人来说既是一种证明，也是一种考验，看我们多快能理解所有这些新模型，并战略性地利用它们——但目标不应该是为了编码而编码，而应该是达到一个点，在那里你需要一个工具来进入下一阶段。我感觉自己又回到了 22 岁，就像我第一次接触网页设计和交互设计时那样。

I just have so many things that I always want to try or that I'm thinking about or that I see especially when I'm on Twitter or just consuming information or reading books or articles or seeing all the tools that people are creating. That whole quote "steal like an artist" — like I learned graphic design by copying graphic design. That was the main thing we had to do and that I tried to do. And I think by the way for listeners who are maybe also a little bit younger in their career, the best thing you can do when you see something that you really like that's really beautiful is try to recreate it. Like take this screen, put it in Figma, rebuild it. Try to find the right fonts, try to find the right assets from them if you can if you have to, but rebuild that screen that you looked at to understand the complexity and what goes into it. And the same thing I think right now for me goes towards these tools that people are posting. Like there are so many cool things that people are doing with open cloth box, right? Like every time I open up any social media profile, I'm like, "Okay, there are nine new ideas that I now have that I want to feed to my bot." Or there are four new things that this thing animates and that I want to try out now. Or the way this person is putting something together is like and now you have agents — hundreds of agents working for you that can do all these things and I feel like yeah, I don't know. Toby always says it in the like AI turns some people into a 100X and other people stay at that level. I feel like that's just what it is. Like I think AI is enabling people with agency and people who want to ideate and who want to move and who want to iterate to move way way way faster. And I think it's a testament and a test to all of us to see how fast we can understand all of these new models that are coming out and just using them to our advantage strategically — but the goal shouldn't be to buy put for the sense of by coding it should be to get to a point where now you need a tool to get to the next stage. I feel like I'm 22 again, like when I first got into web design and interactive design.

是一样的。

It's the same.

我显然感到很幸运，我们之前也提到过，作为设计师和工程师，对于正在收听你播客的产品经理和领导者来说，我们被期望站在所有这些新工具的前沿。这就是我们的行业，这就是我们在做的事情，这就是我们正在努力的方向。能够接触这些工具，身边有这样的人和环境，允许你创造、摆弄这些工具并学习，这太棒了。尤其是在 Shopify，我们真正赋能人们，并赋予那种自由，同时也承担起责任——这些东西是存在的。你可以使用它们，你可以用任意多的 token。在 Shopify，你可以尽情地产生尽可能多的想法，直到得到结果。这是我们所有人都非常痴迷并且已经感到兴奋的事情。

I feel obviously lucky and we brought this up before as well where it's like we are designers and engineers and for people who are listening to your podcast, product managers and leaders, we are expected to be at the cutting edge of all of these new tools. That's our industry and that's what we're doing and that's what we're working on and having exposure and having people around you and an environment that allows you to create and mess with these tools and learn is I mean it's awesome and it's like really cool to be especially at Shopify like we really enable people and invoke that kind of freedom but also responsibility to like these things exist. You can use them, you can use as many tokens as you want. At Shopify just crank out as many ideas as you need to get to the results and that's something that we all really really obsessed about and already excited about.

我看到公司里很多非常擅长设计和工程的人开始学习使用这些工具，这让他们效率大大提升。而且涌现出了多得多的想法。这些想法不一定会发到 X 上，也不一定会像它们被“氛围编程”时那样直接进入代码库，但每个人都在讨论它们，它们在我们团队内部创造了更大的动力。这真是一个超级激动人心的时代。

I've seen so many people at the company who are so good at design and engineering start to learn how to use these tools that's made them so much faster. And there's so many more ideas. These aren't ideas that you would necessarily post on X or that will actually go into the code base the way they were vibe coded but everybody's talking about them and they create so much more momentum within our teams. It's a super exciting time to be around all of this.

而且不仅仅是更快，对吧？它让人们提高了标准。跟你聊着天，我正好有个有趣的例子——挂掉这个电话后，我接下来要做的事情就是做一个原型，而它直接受到了你团队里某位成员的启发。我不记得他的名字了，但就是那个 Shop 的网页应用。里面有一个面板交互我非常喜欢：你点击一个分类，它会添加第二层，并且几乎模糊了背后的背景。我把它保存了下来，心想：“哦，这给了我一个我正在做的项目的灵感。我完全不知道怎么做。”以至于几年前我甚至不会尝试在 Figma 里静态地模拟它，因为我其实根本不懂。

And it's not just faster too, right? It just allows people to raise the bar. It's a funny example now talking to you but literally I'm going to hang up this call and the next thing I'm going to do is make a prototype directly inspired by someone on your team. I don't remember his name, but it's the web app for shop. There's this panel interaction that I love. You click on a category and it adds a second layer and almost blurs the background behind it. I had it saved and I was like, "Oh man, that gives me an idea for something I'm working on. I have no idea how to make it." So much so that I wouldn't even attempt to mock it up statically in Figma years ago because I actually don't really understand it.

我以前会觉得那是不可能的。直到我亲眼看到。

I wouldn't have thought that it was possible. Till I saw it.

然后我就想，我就试试看。我就试试能不能实现它。我不知道能不能成，但它显然提高了我作为设计师对交付物可能性上限的认知。以前我根本不会碰那个级别的东西，现在我觉得，某种程度上我感觉自己什么都能做。我只需要去尝试，你知道吗？

And I'm like, I'm just going to see. I'm just going to try and see if I can make this happen. I have no idea if it'll work or not, but it's so clearly raising the ceiling of what I consider the possibility set of deliverables as a designer. I wouldn't even have touched something in that tier and now I'm like, yeah, to an extent I feel like I can do anything. I just need to try, you know?

能做出这样的事情，真是个疯狂的时代。这在以前是不可能的。

What a wild time to be able to do stuff like that. This wasn't possible before.

你可以先取得一点小胜利。有了几次之后，你就会想，好吧，如果我再多做一点呢？再多做一点呢？每次发射之前，我都把弹弓拉得更远一点，看看自己能做出什么。我现在做的事情和上个月相比，完全不在一个层次。所以我认为归根结底就是，伙计，去试试吧。多练几次。如果你在听这个节目，还没有练过手，那就试着做点东西，因为它实际上比看起来要容易，直到你真正上手，然后你会惊呼：哦天哪，我简直不敢相信它居然成功了。

And you can get a little win under your belt. After you get a few of them, you're like, okay, what if I did a little bit more? And what if I did a little bit more? I just keep pulling back the slingshot a bit further each time before I launch it and see what I can make. The things I'm working on now are in a different stratosphere than what I was working on last month. So I think it really does come down to just, man, just try. Just get some reps. If you're listening to this and you haven't put in some reps, just try to make something because it really actually is easier than it seems until you get in there and you're like, oh my gosh, I can't believe that just worked.

这就像生活中的任何事情。就像学一门乐器，对吧？你必须去使用它。你必须使用这些工具并理解它们。

It's like anything in life. It's like learning an instrument, right? You just have to use it. You have to use the tools and understand them.

好了，我们聊了很多，Marvin。在放你走之前，我想把话题拉回到 Carl Rivera 之前谈到的一些事情上，因为几个月前我们请他来做客播客，他是首席设计官。他基本上在谈论为什么收购 Molly，并指出，一方面是为了注入能量和打破常规。这也与设计差异化这个目标有关，以及它未来有多重要。所以我很好奇你的看法。当你展望未来，想象 Shopify 的设计差异化会是什么样子，以及这如何能成为长期的竞争优势时，你脑海中会浮现哪些东西？

All right, well, we've covered a lot of ground, Marvin. Before I let you go, I want to tie this back to something that Carl Rivera was talking about because we had him on the podcast, the chief Design Officer, a few months ago. He basically was talking about why he acquired Molly and pointing at, yeah, one, this injection of energy and kind of shaking things up. It was also tied to this goal of design differentiation and how important that is moving forward. So, I'm kind of curious for your perspective. When you look into the future and dream about what design differentiation looks like for Shopify and how this can be a competitive advantage in the long run, what types of things come to mind for you?

我认为设计差异化对我来说意味着：第一，我们作为一家公司能够以对话的速度和技术发展的速度进行迭代，这对 Shopify 来说非常重要。我认为设计差异化意味着在未来，我们会看到更多可塑的界面，它根据商家的上下文需求自行变形和塑造，而不是局限于某个特定的方向或管理后台升级（姑且这么说）。我还认为设计差异化也意味着真正专注于细节。我觉得我们做得很好。Artifact 就是一个很好的例子，它是由一个想解决问题的团队通过“氛围编程”拼凑起来的，但背后的品牌、动画、标志，以及我们添加到工具中的所有那些微交互，让它感觉非常非常漂亮，让你想要与之互动——正是这些赋予了它灵魂、意义和兴奋感。我认为你必须把这两个世界结合起来才能达到那个结果。

I think design differentiation to me means one, we are as a company able to iterate at the speed of conversation and at the speed of technology moving, which is something that's very important to Shopify. I think design differentiation means that in the future, we're looking at more of a malleable interface that morphs and shapes itself around contextual needs of the merchants, more so than at maybe one specific like our direction or admin uplift for lack of a better term. And I think design differentiation also means just really honing in on the details. I feel like we're very good. Artifact is a good example of something that is vibe coded and put together by a team of people who wanted to solve a problem, but the branding behind it, the animations behind it, the logo behind it, and all of these little micro interactions that we added to the tool to make it feel like something really, really, really beautiful that you want to interact with is what gives it soul and what gives it meaning and what gives it excitement. I think you have to marry those two worlds together to get to that outcome.

好吧，也许你刚刚为未来一期关于 Shopify 可塑软件的节目打下了基础，我已经很期待了。Marvin，感谢你来做客，伙计。这真的非常非常有趣。我非常欣赏你所做的一切，也感谢你分享了一些你的经历和你今天正在做的事情。

Well, maybe you just laid the foundation for a future malleable software at Shopify episode that I'm already looking forward to. And Marvin, thanks for coming on, man. This has been really, really fun. Big fan of everything that you're doing and I appreciate you sharing a little bit about your journey and the types of things that you're working on today.

感谢你。非常感谢。Brett，谢谢你。这太棒了。

Appreciate you. Thank you so much. Brett, thank you. This was great.

在放你走之前，我想花一分钟给你介绍一下我最喜欢的产品，因为经常有人问我的工具栈是什么。Framer 是我建网站的工具。Jenway 是我做研究用的。Granola 是我在评审时做笔记用的。Jitter 是我给设计做动画用的。Lovable 是我用代码实现想法用的。Mobbin 是我找设计灵感用的。Paper 是我像创意人一样设计用的，而 Raycast 是我每一步的快捷方式。这些公司都是我精心挑选的，这样我才能全职做这些节目。所以，支持这个节目的首要方式就是去看看它们。你可以在 dive.club/partners 找到完整列表。

Before I let you go, I want to take just 1 minute to run you through my favorite products because I'm constantly asked what's in my stack. Framer is how I build websites. Jenway is how I do research. Granola is how I take notes during crit. Jitter is how I animate my designs. Lovable is how I build my ideas in code. Mobbin is how I find design inspiration. Paper is how I design like a creative and Raycast is my shortcut every step of the way. Now, I've hand selected these companies so that I can do these episodes full-time. So, by far the number one way to support the show is to check them out. You can find the full list at dive.club/partners.