英特尔复兴：陈立武谈抓住下一个大浪潮

过去在英特尔，我们错过了移动、云、AI 这样的大浪潮。所以从现在开始，我说我不会再错过任何大浪潮。

And now in the past Intel, we missed the big wave like mobile and then the cloud, AI. So from here on, I said I'm not going to miss any of the big wave.

你如何看待这样一个事实：你和这些人既是竞争对手又是朋友，他们还投资了你；你和英伟达竞争，而英伟达是你的投资者，现在政府也是投资者，还有……

How do you feel about the fact you're competing with these people and you're friends with them and they're invested with you, you compete with Nvidia and Nvidia's an investor and now the government's an investor and

我不是那种只看短期的人。我看的是 10 年、15 年以后。你知道，到了我这个年纪，完全可以轻松退休，但我认为这件事太重要了，我想参与进来并产生影响。

I'm not the short-term guy. I'm looking at 10 years, 15 years from now. You know, at my age, I can just easily retire, but I decided this is so important I want to step in and make an impact.

大家好，欢迎收听由 Celesta Capital 出品的 Tech Surge 深科技播客。每期节目我们聚焦新兴技术、公司建设和风险投资交汇处的议题与声音。我是 Michael Marks，Celesta 的创始管理合伙人。如果你喜欢 Tech Surge，请订阅并在你最喜欢的播客平台上给我们留个评价。访问 techsurgepodcast.com 订阅我们的通讯，并在 YouTube 上观看视频版。大家好，感谢收听。本期 Tech Surge 是在旧金山深科技周会议上录制的。去年全球半导体采购额超过 7900 亿美元，一年内增长超过 25%。行业原本设定了到 2030 年实现年销售额 1 万亿美元的目标，现在将提前约四年达成。在我的嘉宾从事这一行的大部分时间里，没人预见到这一点。Lip-Bu Tan 自 1987 年起就投资硅谷，远早于今天成为共识。从外部看，他资助了颠覆计算的公司。现在他领导着最初定义计算的那家公司。而这家公司可能在美国科技产业中承载着最重的分量。英特尔是美国本土唯一能够大规模制造领先半导体的公司。华盛顿、英伟达和软银现在都是其投资者。Lip-Bu 和我是多年的好友。在这次对话中，我们谈到了他的投资理念、他将从 Cadence Design 的扭亏为盈中带来什么到英特尔，以及他对未来一年的优先事项。

Hi everyone. This is the Tech Surge Deep Tech podcast presented by Celesta Capital. Each episode we spotlight issues and voices at the intersection of emerging technologies, company building, and venture investment. I'm Michael Marks, founding managing partner at Celesta. If you enjoy Tech Surge, subscribe and leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform. Visit techsurgepodcast.com to sign up for our newsletter and find our video episodes on YouTube. Hi everyone. Thanks for joining us. This episode of Tech Surge was recorded during the Deep Tech Week conference in San Francisco. Last year the world purchased more than 790 billion dollars worth of semiconductors. That is up more than 25% in a single year. The industry had set itself a goal of reaching a trillion dollars in annual sales by 2030. It is going to get there about four years early. For most of the time my guest has been doing this, nobody saw that coming. Lip-Bu Tan has been investing in silicon since 1987, long before this became the consensus it is today. From the outside, he funded the companies that disrupted computing. Now he's leading the one that originally defined it. And that same company might be carrying the most weight in the American technology industry. Intel is the only firm on US soil able to compete in making leading edge semiconductors at scale. And Washington, Nvidia, and SoftBank are all now investors. Lip-Bu and I have been good friends for many years. In this chat, we talk about his investment philosophy, what he's bringing from his turnaround of Cadence Design to Intel, and his priorities for the year ahead.

Lip-Bu 和我认识，天哪，肯定有 25 年了。

Lip-Bu and I have known each other for a gosh, must be 25 years now.

不止。

More than that.

我想不止。你知道，我们很早就认识了。Lip-Bu 加入了 Flextronics 的董事会，然后在 2013 年，我们和合伙人 Nick Braithwaite 一起创办了 Celesta，所以我们认识很久了。所以，我希望这是一次老朋友间的对话。你做了很多事情。我想观众会想听听你是怎么走到今天的，从哪里开始，怎么来到硅谷的。我们就从那里开始吧？

I think it's more than that. You know, we had met early early on. Lip-Bu joined the board of Flextronics, and then in 2013 we started this firm Celesta together with our partner Nick Braithwaite, and so we've known each other a long time. So, I just want this to be a conversation with old friends. You've done a lot of things. I think it would be helpful for the audience to hear how you got to where you are, where you started, how you wound up in Silicon Valley. Why don't we start there?

当然。我出生在马来西亚柔佛州，然后在新加坡读高中和大学。当时我觉得能源问题是个更大的危机，所以我去麻省理工学院读核工程。不幸的是，三哩岛事故发生了，然后就业指导主任告诉我，你应该离开这里。没有新的核电站，你也没有未来的职业。所以我说，好吧。我想你有个博士项目，所以我缩短了学业。然后我写了人生中唯一一份简历去申请工作。他们寄来了免费机票和酒店，让我来加州旧金山。我说，为什么不呢？这么好的交易。所以我来到这里，我很喜欢这里。所以我一直在这里。

Sure. Yeah, I was born in Malaysia, Johor, and then spent my high school, college in Singapore. And then I thought the energy problem is a bigger crisis, so I enrolled to MIT for my nuclear engineering. And unfortunately, the Three Mile Island accident happened, and then the placement director told me that you should get out of here. And then there's no new nuclear power plant, there's no future career for you. So, I said, "Okay." And I suppose you have a PhD program, so I cut short that. And then so I wrote the only one resume in my life to apply for a job. And then so they sent a free ticket and hotel to come to California, San Francisco. I said, why not? Such a nice good deal. So, I came here and I love it here. So, I've been here for

你到这里时多大？

How old were you when you got here?

大概 20 岁，二十出头。

I think it's about 20, early 20.

好的。太棒了。那么，这些年来你一直是科技投资者、科技先驱。是什么吸引你投身硬件呢？你从早期就做了很多硬件相关的投资。那么，硬件吸引你的是什么？

Okay. Fantastic. So, you have been a technology investor, technology pioneer for all these years. What attracted you, you know, to hardware, if you will. You've done a lot of investing around hardware from early on. So, what about hardware got you interested?

是的，实际上我投资范围很广。你知道，我很好奇，喜欢学新东西。我还记得我投资了谷歌的搜索，但我很早就投了。我还投资了澳大利亚的 LookSmart。

Yeah, actually I invest in the cross the board. As you know, I'm very curious and learn new things. And I still remember I invest in the you know, you know Google for search, but I invest early in that. I look I invest in LookSmart in Australia.

哦，好的。

Oh, okay.

然后第一笔投资，回报了基金的 10 倍。所以，其余的不重要。你知道，它回报了 10 倍。每个投资者都很高兴。所以，我认为到目前为止，我一直相信要构建解决行业需要的问题的东西。然后你专注于找到合适的人来做。这也很有趣。然后如何规模化。从 Flextronics 学到了很多，谢谢你邀请我加入董事会。

And then first investment, it returned 10 times the fund. And so, the rest is not important. You know, it returned the 10 times. You know, every investor are happy, you know. So, I think so far, you know, so I think I always believe in building something that the problem you try to solve, the industry need. And then you just zoom in and focus on what whether you find the right people to do it. And that's kind of fun, too. And then how to scale it. Learn a lot from Flex Tronic that thank you for inviting me to be on the board.

嗯，你看，我们在硅谷待了很长时间，从硬件开始。你知道，当我听到一些辩论时，你几乎忘了硅谷是从仙童、国家半导体和英特尔开始的，当然。然后经历了个人电脑、思科等等，你知道，个人电脑和手机之类的东西。然后在过去大约 20 年里，每个人都在做软件、软件、软件。当然，两者都需要。现在硬件变得非常重要。每个人都知道，英伟达成为第一家万亿美元公司，是世界上最值钱的公司。这改变了围绕硬件的整个讨论。你怎么看待这种回归硬件焦点的转变？因为显然我们有 AI 软件，但是，你知道，SaaS 软件公司一直承压。你从生态系统的角度怎么看？

Well, so look, we've been around for a long time in Silicon Valley started with hardware. You know, when I listen to some of the debate, you almost forget that Silicon Valley started with, you know, Fairchild and National Semiconductor and Intel, of course. And then went through, you know, PCs and and, you know, and Cisco and all these, you know, the PCs and cell phones and all that kind of stuff. And then for about the last 20 years, everybody's been doing software, software, software. And of course, it takes both. And now hardware has become really important. Everybody knows, you know, Nvidia became the first trillion-dollar company, is the most valuable company in the world. And that's kind of changed the whole discussion around hardware. How do you think about that transition back to the focus of, I would say, on hardware? Cuz obviously, we have AI software, but, you know, the SaaS software companies have been under stress. How do you think about that from an ecosystem standpoint?

这是个很好的问题。你知道，首先，我认为半导体很难，深科技非常重要。

That's a very good question. You know, first of all, I thought that semiconductor is hard and deep tech is very important.

对。

Right.

很多应用，如果没有硅片或平台，你知道，有时候，比如我的手机，我得带三块电池，因为白天就用完了。除非你关掉一些应用。所以，在某种程度上，我一直认为半导体基础非常重要。而 20 年前，这并不流行。所以，我去找了一些一线风投公司的朋友，也是你的朋友。起初，整个合伙人都来参加会议，但在我谈到半导体之后，一半人找借口离开房间。你知道，礼貌地。后来，只剩下两个人同情地听我说。然后顺便说一句，最后他们说：“你有什么软件服务公司的初创项目吗？”所以，这并不流行。

And a lot of application, if you don't have the silicon or the platform, you know, you sometime, you know, like, for example, my phone, and I had to have three battery because you run out of them in the middle of the day. And unless you switch off some of the applications. So, in a way, I always thought that semiconductor foundation is so important. And 20 years ago, that is not very popular. So, I went to some of the tier-one venture firm friend of mine and also yours. And initially, the whole partnership attending meeting with me, then after I talk about semiconductor, half kind of find excuse to leave the room. You know, politely. And then later on, only left with two you know, sympathetically listen to me. And then by the way, at the end, they said, "Do you have any software service company startup?" And so, it's not a very popular.

然后我决定……这就是我取名 Walden 的原因。你知道，做一个逆向投资者。

And then I decided being uh That's why I have the name called Walden. It's you know, being a contrarian investor.

对。

Right.

然后你和我聊了聊，我决定专注于半导体。当时连我的一些投资人都觉得我疯了，你知道吗？

Then you and I we talk, and then uh I decided to focus on semiconductor. And then even some of my investor thought that are you nuts? You know

这是夕阳产业。所有一线风投都在退出，你却想加倍下注、三倍下注。

It's a sunset industry. All the tier one venture fund is get out of it and you want to double down, triple down on it.

但我就是相信，作为逆向投资者，这是正确的事。然后你瞧，我还记得我们共同投资的一个项目里，有位联合投资人问我：“给我举一个市值超过 1 万亿美元的半导体公司。”我努力跟他争辩：“别关掉半导体这块业务。”

But I just believe that that is the right thing to do being a contrarian. And then long and behold, I still remember uh on one of the investment we make together and then uh one of the co-investor asking me, "Name me one semiconductor company that over $1 trillion market cap." And I will try to argue with him, "Don't shut down the semiconductor part of the business."

对，对，对。

Right. Right. Right.

现在我很高兴，这个问题已经不存在了。最有价值的公司就是半导体公司。

And and I'm so happy right now that question is gone. The most valuable company is a semiconductor company.

是的，确实如此。嗯，有趣的一点是，你知道，很多在场的投资人和媒体，以及参与整个深科技周等活动的人，显然都把大量关注放在英伟达上，这也很正常，还有 Cerebras 上市之类的。这些大事件。Sam Altman 也在这里登台演讲。但我觉得人们往往不会想到那些小公司、那些小事情。比如，你谈到能源使用、电池之类的。有这么多我们共同投资的小公司，风投们投的那些。比如做芯片粒来降低能耗之类的。我想提醒人们，半导体领域的硬件是个大空间，不只是我们知道的那些大公司。但你一直很擅长挑选那些小公司并早期投资。是什么让你这么想的？

Yeah, it really is. Well, one of the things that's interesting and and you know, a lot of the investors and media who are here and and you know, who are part of this whole deep tech week and these things around you know, there's a lot of focus on obviously as it should be on Nvidia and and and you know, now Cerebras has gone public and all this kind of stuff. These These These big things. Sam Altman was on the stage here as well and all that stuff. And I think people tended not think about all the little companies, all the little things that take place. You know, for example, you talk about energy use, you know, batteries and stuff. And there's all these little companies that we've invested in together and and and that the venture guys have invested in. You know, like that make chiplets to take energy out, stuff like that. I like to remind people that the hardware of semiconductor space is a big space. It's not just these These big companies we know about. But you've been very good at picking those little companies and investing in them early. What What What What What brings you to think about it that way?

嗯，这是个有趣的问题。你知道，当我开始的时候，我一直相信要努力学习了解正在发生的事情。我始终保持好奇心。所以，当你邀请我加入伟创力董事会时，起初我拒绝了。但后来我决定加入。

Yeah, it's a interesting questions. So you know, when I started um and I always believe in putting hard work to learn what's going on. And I always have the curiosity of mine. And uh so, when you reached out to me to join the Flextronics board, initially, I said no. But later on, I decided to to do it.

这样啊。

that.

是的。主要原因是真正理解供应链和物流，以及如何采购材料。通过加入董事会我学到了很多，还有如何扩大运营规模。这教会了我很多。所以，每次有人请我加入董事会，我都会想我能从中学习什么，比如施耐德电气。我觉得了解西门子为什么收购我的竞争对手 Mentor 对我非常重要。然后是整个电子领域，还有 Simatic 以及所有电子设计软件，还有现在的机械数字孪生。这些如何联系在一起？他们到底为什么收购 Mentor？所以我想了解整个链条中发生了什么。结果这对我管理电源管理和工业自动化非常有帮助。所以，我参与的每家公司，我都试图理解我能学到什么、能贡献什么。

Yes. And the main reason is really understanding the supply chain and logistics and then how to source the material that I learned a lot by being on the board and how to scale the operation. And so, that teach me a lot. So, every time, you know, I always look at the people ask me to join the board, and I want to figure out what can I learn from it, you know, like Schneider Electric. I thought that very important for me to learn why on earth Siemens bought Mentor, my competitor. And then this whole electronics and uh and then with uh Simatic and all the software for design of electronics and also the uh now the mechanical, you know, uh digital twin. How that tie in together? Why on earth they bought uh Mentor? So, I want to learn what's going on in this whole chains. Turn out to be very helpful for me in term of uh manage power management and also industrial automation. So, every company I'm involved, I try to understanding what can I learn and what can I contribute.

对。

Right.

然后在创业公司方面，回顾过去，我在这个行业已经很久了。我投资了接近 550 家公司。我喜欢做创业公司，然后找到一些瓶颈的解决方法，如何解决那个问题？然后从中学习，有时候，最好的学习对象是聪明的创业者。他们想创业，我和他们交谈学到了很多。在这个过程中我积累了经验，希望能对他们有所帮助。

And then on the startup side, and I look back and I've been in the industry for a long time. Uh I invest close to 550 company. And uh so, I enjoy doing startup and then find a way some of this bottleneck, how do you solve that issue? And then uh learn from it and then sometime, you know, the best thing to learn is the smart entrepreneur. They want to do something startup, and I learned a lot by talking to them. And then along the way I accumulate the experience. And uh hopefully can be helpful to them.

嗯，那自然引出的问题是，是什么让你对 SambaNova 感兴趣？它现在是个热门公司，登台了，了不起。像很多这样的公司，我们在那里的第一笔投资是由你主导的，2017 年投了 200 万美元。我记得估值大概是 1200 万美元之类的可笑小数字。是什么让你对它感兴趣？你是如何跟进的？我想大家都知道，Lip-Bu 现在还是 SambaNova 的董事长，感谢你在那里的工作。但你当时看到了什么？

Well, that's a the natural follow-up to that is what got you interested in SambaNova, which was, you know, now a hot company is on the stage, big deal. Like a lot of these companies, you know, our first investment there, which was led by you, was $2 million in 2017. So, I think the valuation was something like $12 million or some silly little number. What got you interested in that one? And how you followed along and as you I think you all know, Lip-Bu was also the chairman of SambaNova still and thank you for your work there. But what did you see back then?

嗯，这是个好问题。我早期投资过一些图形公司，比如 S3 等。

Yeah, it's good interesting question. So, and I was early investor in some of the graphic company, like S3 and others.

对。

Right.

我了解 GPU 非常耗电。所以我坚信生成式 AI 将是未来，而且会比训练端大得多。所以我觉得解决这个问题会很有趣。而且知道 GPU 非常耗电。那是在差不多 10 年前，9 年前。

And understanding the GPU is very power hungry. And so, I strongly believe uh genetic AI going to be the future in much bigger than the in a the training side. And uh so, I thought that this would be interesting to address. And then knowing the GPU is very power hungry. So, at that time it's almost 10 years, 9 years ago.

所以我投资了两家公司，两种我认为非常有用的技术。一个是 Cerebras，这是晶圆级 Scaling。这不容易做到。我非常钦佩 Andrew 尝试做的事情。所以我是 A 轮投资者。SambaNova 也一样。这是 RDU，数据流架构。

So, I backed two company, two technology that I thought is very useful. Uh one is Cerebras. This is wafer scaling. And uh it's not easy to do. And I was really admire what Andrew tried to do. So, I was investor in series A. And then same thing with SambaNova. This is the you know, RDU. This is a data flow architecture.

对。

Yeah.

这样你可以获得更低的功耗和更高的性能。所以我投资了这两家。我喜欢 SambaNova 是因为，你知道，CEO 和两位教授来找我谈这个想法。事实上，我曾试图说服他们，你知道 Rodrigo，有些人认识 Rodrigo。他来过我的办公室。他是我在经营 Cadence 时的客户。他是 Sun Microsystems 的。我说，好吧，你的朋友对我来说是保护伞。走吧，你和我一起投资。

That you can much lower power performance and much lower power. So, I backed both of them. And then SambaNova I like because, you know, the the CEO and two professor came to me about the idea. In fact, I have tried to persuade them, you know, Rodrigo, some of you know Rodrigo. He came to my office. He used to be in my customer when I run Cadence. And uh he's a Sun Microsystem. And I said that well, your friends umbrella for me. Let's go, you and I we back.

对，我们投资了保护伞。

Yeah, we back the umbrella.

然后我说，是时候你出来做点事情了。他很好奇，每次都邀请我吃午饭。最后有一天他打电话给我，说我要开一家公司。和这两位教授一起，带着这个新的颠覆性技术，在做了一些技术审查之后。

And then I said about time for you to come out and do something. And uh he very curious every time invite me for lunch. Finally, one day he call me a little bit, I'm going to start a company. And with this two professor with this new disruptive on it after doing some technical review.

嗯。

Mhm.

我觉得这是个好的架构。所以我从 A 轮、B 轮、C 轮、D 轮一直投资他。现在是 F 轮。

And I thought this is something good architecture. So, I've been funding him from series C A round A round B round C round D D round. Now F round.

现在是 F 轮。

Now F round.

每一轮我都参与引入合适的投资者。

And every round I was for in bringing the right investor to come in.

对。

Yeah.

所以我正在完成 F 轮融资，规模在 8 亿到 10 亿之间。我们很高兴终于看到资金

So, I'm in the process of closing a F round in the somewhere between 800 million to one one billion. And uh so, we are delighted to see finally that's the money

进来了。

coming in.

不是估值。

Not the valuation.

嗯，显然这里有一些主题。如果可以的话，我们来谈谈技术的全球性。你知道，你来自马来西亚，你到处旅行，你知道，印度现在正大力推动将更多技术引入印度生态系统。

Um So, obviously there's themes going on here. Let's talk a bit if we might about the global nature of technology. You know, you're from Malaysia, you've you've traveled around, you know, we you know, there there there's India now is trying to putting a big effort into into trying to get more technology, if you will, into into the you know, the India ecosystem.

你知道，我们开始在加拿大开展工作，这是另一个新领域，很多大学，和我们在印度的情况一样。你知道，中国存在政治问题，我对此非常遗憾。我相信你也是，因为我们在那里有过非常好的经历。你怎么看现在大家都在试图打造硅谷，而且随着大公司的发展，这种情况会更多。你如何看待全球化方面，以及这对英特尔的影响？我们一会儿会谈到英特尔，但你怎么看待商业的全球性？

Uh you know, we're starting to do work in Canada, as you know, which is a new area, a lot of universities, same as we have in India. You know, there's the political issues with China, which I'm very sad about. I'm sure you are cuz we've had such good experiences there. How do you feel think about You know, everybody's trying to get Silicon Valleys now, and it's course is going to be more of this because of what's happening with the big these companies. How do you think about the global aspects and what impacts that has on Intel? We'll get to Intel here in a minute, but how do you think about the global nature of business?

是的，我想我一直都知道，在沃顿商学院，你知道，当我开始在沃顿的时候，有点像，你知道，全球化思考，本地化行动。

Yeah, I think I always know have to at Wharton, you know, when I started at Wharton, it's kind of you know, think globally, act locally.

当然。

Sure.

所以，我一直相信投资，你知道，你可以亲力亲为，帮助公司。我经常旅行。我在以色列投资很多。

And so, I always believe in investing, you know, that you can add, you know, hands-on and helping the company. I travel a lot. I invest a lot in Israel.

不会吧。

No way.

我在印度投资也很多，比如 My Tree 和其他许多公司。

I invest quite a lot in India, like My Tree and many others.

是的。

Yeah.

然后中国和台湾也是如此。所以，你知道，你总是要考虑，你知道，哪里能获得最优秀的人才，然后你投资，然后必须扩大业务。所以，我认为找到合适的团队去支持非常重要。然后他们很好，你知道，在某种程度上，我做的十笔投资中有九笔，他们改变了商业计划。

And then the same thing with China and Taiwan. So, you know, you always think about, you know, where are the best talent that you can get, and then you invest, and then have to scale the business. And then so, I think it's very important to just find the right team to back. And then they are good, you know, in some way, nine out of the ten investments I make, they change their business plan.

是的。

Yes.

因为市场变了。

And because the market changed.

是的。

Yes.

所以，我想要支持的不是一个人，而是一个能够真正建立世界级公司的团队，并且拥有正确的文化。然后作为导师帮助他们成功是件好事。所以，看到他们上市或成功出售总是令人高兴。我仍然享受这样做。

And so, I want to back the team that is not just one individual, but a team that can really build world-class company, and then with the right culture. And then it's kind of nice to be a mentor and then helping them to succeed. And so, it's always nice to see them go IPO or being successful trade sales. And it's kind of enjoy doing that. I'm still enjoy doing that.

嗯，我也是。这太有趣了。我们已经做了，你知道，我们在以色列、韩国投资了公司，我想嗯

Well, it's me, too. It's so much fun. And we've done, you know, we've backed companies in Israel, in Korea, I think uh

是的。

Yes.

当它进入城镇。来自 Heidi 的应用。当然，你知道，还有印度和美国。还有加拿大。看到来自这些不同地方的企业家真是令人兴奋。他们带来不同的东西，你从他们那里学到很多有趣的东西。所以，我同意这一点。

when it goes into town. App from Heidi. And uh of course, you know, India and the United States. And it's Canada. It's exciting to actually see entrepreneurs from these different places. They bring different things and you learn a lot of interesting stuff from them. So, I agree about that.

让我们稍微换个话题，嗯，我想大家都知道你在 Cadence 取得的成功，这与早期投资有点不同，但你接手这家公司时，天哪，我想股价大概是 3 美元左右，但涨了 3000%，大家都会感兴趣，是什么造就了成功，更有趣的是，我想，你在这个过程中学到了什么，今天在英特尔对你有所帮助？

Let's switch gears a little bit and uh I think everybody knows what a success you had at Cadence, which is a bit different from the early-stage investing, but you took this company over a gosh, I think the stock was like $3 or something silly, but in a 3,000% it'd be interesting to hear after everybody just be interested what what made that successful and more interesting, I think, is what what did you learn in that process that's helping you today at Intel?

是的，事实上，历史很有趣，嗯，前任 CEO 找到我，说：“Lip-Bu，你应该加入董事会。”我说了十次不。但他们非常坚持。最后，我接受了加入董事会。接下来我知道的是，他们问我：“Lip-Bu，你能临时担任 CEO 吗？”

Yeah, in fact, history is interesting and uh the former CEO approached me, "Lip-Bu, you should join the board." And I said no 10 times. And uh but they are very persistent at Cadence. And then finally, I accept to be on the board. And the next thing I know is uh they asked me, "Lip-Bu, can you step in to be an interim CEO?"

这是一个滑坡，不是吗？

This is a slippery slope, isn't it?

三个月。我说了十二次不。最后，他们非常有说服力。就做三个月。那三个月变成了十五年。嗯，所以股价我想跌到了 2.42 美元。

for 3 months. And I said 12 times no. And finally, they are very persuasive. Just do it for 3 months. That 3 months become 15 years. And uh so the stock I think down to $2.42.

是的，是的，是的。

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

我只是作为临时 CEO 做了三个月。他们当时在寻找 CEO。最初，我是搜索委员会的一员，但我说我太忙了。专注于客户和产品。所以我退出了搜索委员会。然后他们继续搜索。有一天，主席笑着来找我。我说：“好的，你找到 CEO 了。”当他们把钥匙递给他时，他说：“你可以留着钥匙。”我说：“嗯，不。”所以长话短说，那是十五年，我想它帮助扭转了文化，扭转了对产品的关注。

And I was just doing it for 3 months as an interim CEO. And they were doing the search for CEO. Initially, I'm part of the search committee, but I said I'm too busy. Focus on customer and products. And so I took myself out of the search committee. And then they continued the search. And one day, the chairman came to me with a smiling face. I said, "Okay, you found the CEO." When they are passed the key to He said, "You can keep the key." I said, "Mhm, no." And so long story short, that is 15 years and I think it's managed to help turn around the culture, turn around focus on the products.

然后我还记得和客户的几次会议。客户非常生气。他说：“你不仅要退钱，我们也不想用这个产品。”然后他们中的每一个都被我争取过来，他们成为我持续扩展的客户。所以我认为这是我第一次当 CEO，我还记得人力资源总监给了我三本书，而不是给傻瓜读的 CEO 指南。

And then I still remember the couple of meetings with customer. Customer was so mad. He said, "Not only you have to return the money, and we don't want to use the product." And then each one of them would win them over and they become I continue expanding as a customer. And so I think it's kind of first time CEO, I still remember the HR director gave me three books and not the CEO for dummy reading.

我读了每一页。有一件事，你知道，回头看，你知道，以前没有当过 CEO，实际上这是我的优势。你知道，我在全体大会上犯了一个错误，我说：“哦，好吧，这是我第一次当 CEO，所以如果你有任何好主意，发给我。”

And I read every page. And one thing, you know, look back you know, without being a CEO before, actually it's my benefit. And you know, I make a mistake in the high all hands meeting, I said, "Oh well, this I'm the first time CEO, so if you have any good idea, send it to me."

我每天收到 300 封邮件。

And I received 300 emails per day.

每天？

Per day?

然后我回复了每一封，然后还有一个，我也可能听他们的，和他们开会。他们说：“嗯，Lip-Bu，过去我们给 CEO 发邮件，从来没有回音。你让我惊讶，你来到我的工位和我说话。我学到了很多，所以我认为倾听别人告诉你的东西，然后挑选一些好主意，然后执行，专注于创造最好的产品，然后让客户满意，这种文化很重要。我还记得一些抱怨的客户说：“嗯，我们抱怨你的产品，从来没有回音，直到合同续约，你们才出现。”所以我改变了这一点，有趣的是，其中一个客户说：“Lip-Bu，我不知道你对他们做了什么。我抱怨不到 24 小时，就有人来办公室修好了。”所以这就是响应客户、让客户满意的文化。这一直是我的标志，谦逊，善于倾听。我参加的每次会议，我总是会准备，然后我会记下一些客户的抱怨或建议，我会跟进，这是最好的方式。

And then I respond to every one of them and then one and also someone that I might listen to them, have meeting with them. They say, "Well, Lip-Bu, in the past we dropped a CEO email, we never heard of it. You surprised me, you came out to my cubicle and talked to me. And I learned a lot and then so I think the culture of being listen carefully what people tell you and then pick up some of the good idea and then run with it and focus on creating the best products and then delight the customer. And I still remember some of the complaint customers say, "Well, we complain about your product, never heard of it until the renewal of the contract, then you guys showed up." And then so I change it and then the funny part is some of the one of the customers say, "Lip-Bu, I don't know what you do with them. I just complain to you less than 24 hours, people come to office and fix it." So that's the culture of responsive to delight customer. That had been my trademark, being humble, good listening. Every meeting I have, I always will prepare and then I take notes on some of the customer complain or suggestion, I follow up and that's the best way.

所以你以此闻名，这是件好事。在英特尔也是同样的策略吗？

And so you're known for this and which is a great thing. Is it the same playbook at Intel?

是的，非常如此，但更复杂一些，更多的人，更多的员工。然后我们有产品，我们有代工业务，所以你必须推动双方的成功。然后再次同样的模式，改变倾听的文化，然后谦逊，然后从客户那里学习，获得一些好主意，然后当你表现出脆弱时，实际上人们愿意来帮助你。

Yes, very much so but a little bit more complex, more people more employees. And then we have the product, we have a foundry business and so you have to drive success on both side. And then again the same format, change the culture of listening and then be humble and then learn from the customer and get some good idea and then when you show the vulnerability actually people willing to come and help you.

你知道，对于在座的企业家来说，这似乎很明显，但很多公司没有做到这一点。客户是对的。去听客户的。倾听他们的需求，并尝试回应。

You know, for the entrepreneurs in the crowd I mean it seems so obvious but so many companies don't get this right. The customer's right. Go listen to the customer. Listen to what their needs are and try to respond to that.

如果你这样做，那就是 Flextronics 的运作方式，也是 Cadence 的运作方式，也是 Intel 的运作方式。这看起来并不复杂，但很多公司都搞错了。

If you do, that's how Flextronics worked, that's how Cadence worked, that's how Intel's working. It doesn't seem complicated but a lot of companies get this wrong.

事实上，我在 Cadence 最大的竞争对手说，我终于发现了你的秘密。我说是什么？他说，我的客户把我当作供应商，但同样的客户却把你当作合作伙伴。

And in fact my one biggest competitor at Cadence, he said finally I found your secret. I said what is that? He said that my customer treat me as a vendor. But the same customer treat you as a partner.

对。

Right.

这是一个很大的不同，因为有时候当他们把你视为合作伙伴时，他们会与你分享他们的路线图，也会给你他们的客户反馈。所以在某种程度上，他们觉得当你经营一家大公司时，你会非常孤立。而我成了他们的窗口。他们说，通过与你见面，我对外面的竞争对手了解得更多。

That's a different big difference because sometime if when they view you as a partner they show you share with you their road map. And also they can also advise them their customer feedback. So in a way they feel that sometime when you run a big company, you're so isolated. And I become their window. So they said a little bit by meeting with you I learn more about outside my competitor.

对，对。

Right. Right.

行业趋势变化。

Industry trend change.

对。

Right.

所以在某种程度上，我觉得这在我成为 CEO 时帮了我很多。

And so in some way I think that helped me a lot when I become a CEO.

太好了。我们还有不到 10 分钟。我想问几个关于 Intel 的问题。但我感兴趣的是战略层面，而不是股价涨跌。我的意思是，我们都知道那是什么样子。有一件事我觉得很有趣，因为我在 Flextronics 的背景，当然还有和你一起的经历，就是我们是在外包模式上建立那家公司的。而你在 Intel 做的是更多的垂直整合。所以，你不仅设计和销售设备，还要制造设备。那么，你怎么看待这种垂直整合，而不是……因为你不需要这样做。你不必成为设备制造商。所以，你怎么看待这种垂直整合，如果你愿意的话？

That's great. We have less than 10 minutes here. I would like to ask a few things about Intel. But I'm interested in strategic things, not how much the stock's going up or going down. I mean, we all know what that's like. One of the things that I find interesting because of my background at Flextronics, and of course with you, is that we built that company on an outsource model. And you're doing a bit more vertical integration at Intel. So, you're going to not only design and sell the devices, but make the devices. And so, how do you think about that vertical integration as opposed to and cuz you don't have to do that. You wouldn't have to be the device manufacturer. So, how do you think about that vertical integration, if you will?

我想你知道，坦白说，当我被邀请来经营 Intel 时，我花了一段时间才理解这一点。但最终，我决定接受，因为这是一家非常标志性的公司。

I think you know that to be candid with you, when I was approached to come and run Intel, and it took me a while to comprehend that. And but I at the end, I decided to do it because it's a very iconic company.

当然。

Sure.

其次，这对行业非常重要。第三，这对美国非常重要。所以，我决定，你知道，在我这个年纪，我可以轻松退休。当然。但我认为这太重要了，我想介入并产生影响。所以，我认为这就是我这样做的旅程。其次，你知道，我认为产品、先进封装和代工紧密结合，为客户创造更多价值，这非常重要。所以，我坚信会是这样。但你知道，这非常复杂，所以你真的需要最好的产品。比如，我们有非常强大的 CPU 业务。

And then secondly, it's very important for the industry. And then thirdly, it's very important for United States. And so, I decided to, you know, at my age, I can just easily retire. Sure. But I decided this is so important, I want to step in and make an impact. And so, I think that's just a journey I do that. And then secondly, you know, I think it's very important the product and advanced packaging and foundry, it tying together, you create more value for the customer. And so, I strongly believe that will be the case. But you know, it's very complex, so you really need to have the best product. Like for example, we have the very strong franchise the CPU.

当然。

Sure.

计算。但多年来，我认为我们失去了这个优势。所以，我真的想努力专注于让最好的 CPU 架构师、GPU 架构师、系统架构师和软件人才加入我。你需要一个全栈。不仅面向 PC 客户端，他们还在进入智能体式 AI、边缘，还有物理 AI。那将是未来的前沿。然后你必须与其他前沿实验室和 AI 实验室紧密合作。然后所有的软件开发都必须接入，这样你才能真正为新推出的产品提高效率。另一部分是每个人都在谈论的 Scaling，以及服务器、数据中心和云。

Compute. And over the years, I think we lost that. So, I want to really fight to focus on getting the best CPU architect to come with me and the GPU architect and the system architect and software. You need to have a full stack. And not only for the PC client and they are moving into the agentic AI, the edge. And also the physical AI. That will be the frontier going forward. Then you have to work highly with the other frontier labs and also the AI lab. And then so all the software development you've got to be plugged in so that you can be really drive efficiency for the new product that you come up with. And then the other part is everybody talking about scale and that server, data center, and cloud.

我们在服务器方面有很强的存在感。多年来，我们犯了很多错误。现在我需要纠正这些错误。然后展望未来 5 年、10 年，需求来自哪里，以及如何驱动全栈应用的性能，还有层面，确保它真正为下一个市场实现跨越式发展。还有集群，你知道之前的小组讨论提到的光学。

And we have a very strong presence in the server side. Over the year, we make a lot of mistakes. Now I need to correct that mistake. And then look at next 5 year, 10 years where the requirement come in and how do you drive the performance the full stack application and also the layer to make sure that it really leapfrogging for the next market. And also the cluster how you know the previous panel talking about optical

对。

Right.

还有高速连接。这就是我认为最初多年前你和我看到高速连接非常重要的地方。

and high-speed connectivity. And that's where I thought that initially multiple years ago you and I we look at this high-speed connectivity is very important.

对。

Right.

所以，我投资了 Credo Semiconductor。现在市值大约 500 亿。

So, I backed Credo Semiconductor. Now it's about 50 billion market cap.

今天 500 亿，是的。

50 billion today, yeah.

Astera Labs。

Astera Labs.

是的。

Yep.

然后我投资了来自 TI 的 Instart 的四个人。现在市值大约 720 亿，而且还在增长。

And then I backed four guys from Instart from TI. And now it's like 72 billion market cap and it's growing.

这些数字太疯狂了。

These numbers are nuts.

然后现在光子学变得热门。

And then now the photonics become hot.

对。

Right.

所以，我投资了几个。还有 Elara AI，我卖给了 Marvell。然后 DustPhotonics，我刚卖给了 Credo。我们从中受益。

So, I backed a few. And also Elara AI I sold it to Marvell. And then the DustPhotonics I just sold to Credo. And we benefit on that.

当我们投资 Credo 时，然后我们投资了 DustPhotonics，Credo 收购了 Dust。

We when we backed Credo and then the we backed DustPhotonics and Credo buys Dust.

整合在一起。

Come together.

这就是投资真正有趣的时候。

This is when investing is really fun.

完全正确。所以，我认为高速连接变得非常重要。接下来是 CPU 变得非常热，然后你如何冷却？所以，风冷是一个领域，然后变成液冷，然后是微流控冷却。

Exactly. So, I think that high-speed connectivity become very important. The next thing is the CPU become so hot, and then how do you do the cooling? So, air cooling is the area then become liquid cooling, then microfluidic cooling.

对。

Right.

封装也是如此。然后现在我们开始关注先进封装。你如何推动这一点？然后我们有 EMIB-T，这是下一代封装。现在我转向玻璃，然后转向人造金刚石，它成为非常好的绝缘体。所以，我正在投资那个领域。所以，我认为你只需要关注技术，这就是作为技术投资者的乐趣所在。

And then same thing with packaging. And then now we're starting to look at advanced packaging. How do you drive that? And then we have the EMIB-T, that's a next-generation packaging. Now I move into the glass, then I move into the artificial diamond become very good insulator. So, I'm investing that area. So, I think you just have to look at the technology, and that's the fun part of it being a technology investor.

对。

Right.

每天我都能学到新东西。然后通过观察一些来自斯坦福、麻省理工、伯克利的杰出初创公司，然后你开始花时间，我花很多时间与不同的教授交流，以了解下一个前沿会是什么。这让我很兴奋，能支持这些小公司。它帮助像 Cadence 这样的大公司，现在还有 Intel，我们将与风投社区和初创社区建立联系。这就是我们不错过一些大浪潮的方式。

And every day I learn something new. And then by looking at some of these brilliant startup from Stanford, MIT, Berkeley, and then you're starting to spend time I spend a lot of time with different professor to understanding what is the next frontier going to be. This is exciting for me to kind of supporting this small company. It help the big company like Cadence, and now Intel, we're going to be connected with the VC community, and also the startup community. That's how we don't miss some of the big wave.

对。

Right.

你知道，过去 Intel 我们错过了像移动这样的大浪潮，还有 AI。所以，从现在开始，我说我不会错过任何大浪潮。所以，我想真正融入其中。

You know, in the past Intel we missed you know, the big wave like mobile. And then the you know, the crowd AI. So, from here on I said I'm not going to miss any of the big wave. So, I want to be really plugged in on that.

如果我理解了你说的，当你谈到封装以及所有这些其他扩展，你知道，你从大学里想到的这些东西，是一种让你的核心业务变得更好的方式，因为你可以微调所有这些。对吗？而且你看到的新技术，不一定作为独立的业务，而是作为可能让你的核心业务更有价值的技术。你是这样看的吗？

If I understood what you said when you talk about packaging as well as all these others extensions that, you know, that you're thinking about out of the universities and all that is a way of making your core business better because you get to fine-tune all these things. Is that right? And if you and you look at new technologies coming out like not as discrete businesses necessarily but as technologies that may make your core business more valuable. Is that how you see it?

完全正确。所以，你试图创建一个更大的平台。你知道，Intel 即使是一个非常庞大的 PC 客户端和服务器数据平台，但我们不会止步于此。你必须思考未来会是什么样子。

Absolutely. So, you try to create a bigger platform. You know, Intel, even though it's a very big platform for PC client and server data, but we don't stop there. You have to think about what is the future look like.

对。

Right.

而且世界变化太快了，你必须紧跟所有这些新进展、新材料，并且要认真审视它们。这样你才能尽可能在内部开发。如果不行，你知道的，就孵化一些初创公司。最终，我可以把它们整合进来，然后收购它们。

And then the world is changing so fast and you just have to be really plugged in with all these new developments, new materials, and you really need to look at them. So that you can kind of develop in-house if you can. If not, you know, spin off some of the startups. Eventually, I can spin them in and then acquire them.

对。

Right.

我认为那会打造一个更大的平台。

I think that will create the bigger platform.

那么，关于你可能考虑把哪些部分整合进公司的话题，我得回溯大约 50 年，如果允许的话，对在座的各位说。你们可能知道也可能不知道，英特尔成立于 1968 年，最初是做存储器业务的，而不是微处理器业务。而现在我们的好朋友桑杰·梅赫罗特拉，他今天在存储器业务上已经超过一万亿，我相信是 1.2 万亿。那么，你有没有考虑过重返存储器业务？

Well, on that subject of what pieces you might think about bringing together into a company, I do have to go back 50 years or so, if I might, for the crowd here. You may or may not know that Intel, which was formed in 1968, was originally in the memory business, not the microprocessor business. And now our good friend Sanjay Mehrotra, he's over a trillion, 1.2, I believe, today, in the memory business. So, do you ever give any consideration to going back into the memory business?

嗯，你知道，首先，我们对 AI 和推理的议程感到非常兴奋。CPU 的需求量巨大。

Well, you know, first of all, we are very excited about the agenda of AI and inference. CPU is in huge demand.

巨大的需求。

Huge demand.

我每天接到很多 CEO 的电话，说想要更多你的 CPU。所以，我们确实在努力制造 CPU，确保满足他们的需求。其次，我们也在探索一些新的 CPU 架构，以便满足一些要求。然后第二点，我认为 CPU 和存储器，有很多方式可以真正地堆叠在一起。

My day is a lot of CEO calls, I want to have more CPU from you. So, we truly try to make CPU, make sure that we meet them. And secondly, some of the new architecture of CPU, so that we can meet some of the requirements. And then secondly, I think CPU and memory, I think there's a lot of ways we can really do stacking together.

嗯。

Mhm.

并且也在尝试为存储器寻找一些新的架构。

And also try to find some new architecture for memory.

对。

Right.

而且我认为在某些方面，存储器领域缺乏很多创新。所以，有一些非常好的领域。我以前不投资存储器，因为它有点像大宗商品业务。

And I think in some ways the memory a lot of innovation is not there. So, there's some really good areas. I used to not invest in memory because it's kind of commodity business.

对。

Right.

但现在情况不同了。有很多新技术涌现出来。所以，我们正在关注，我的一个心爱项目就是研究一些存储器的新架构。而且我想你刚看到了新闻。我聘请了我的好朋友李硕基。他曾经经营 SK 海力士。

But now it's become different. There's a lot of new technology coming out. So, we are kind of looking, one of my pet projects is looking at some of the memory new architecture. And I think you just saw the news. I hired my good friend Shauki Lee. He used to run SK Hynix.

对。

Right.

所以，你大概能猜到我在想什么。我们还没准备好公开。但是，你知道，我总是在思考短期、中期、长期的需求是什么。而且，我通常在初创公司任职时，你知道，我通常会待上 10 年、15 年。

So, you kind of know something that I'm thinking about. We're not ready to unfold it. But, you know, I always have something thinking about what is the short-term, mid-term, long-term requirement. And then um I usually when I take a role in a startup company, you know, I usually stay on for 10 years, 15 years.

然后 Cadence 也是一样，15 年。呃，英特尔，当我跟董事会谈的时候，你知道，我不是那种只看短期的人。我看的是 10 年、15 年以后。你打算如何打造一个更大的平台？然后那才能真正惠及整个行业。

And then same thing with Cadence, 15 years. Uh Intel, when I talked to my board, you know, I'm not the short-term guy. I'm looking at 10 years, 15 years from now. How are you going to build a bigger platform? And then that can be really beneficial for the industry.

对。

Right.

而且，能为行业做出一点小小的贡献，是件挺有趣的事。

And that's something that is kind of fun to be making some small contribution for the industry.

所以，我本来没打算问这个问题，但这听起来确实有点像是回到未来的感觉。

So, I didn't know I was going to ask this question, but it does sound like there's a little bit of back to the future on that one.

那么，我们得稍微总结一下了。最后我想提的是，看看我们这些一直以来的朋友们。桑杰·梅赫罗特拉曾在闪迪。我是那家公司的董事长。现在他去做美光了。你知道，黄仁勋，我们认识他的时候他还在圣克拉拉只有 30 个工程师。还有，陈福阳。

Well, look, we got to wrap up a little bit. The last thing I want to mention is, just here a little bit at all these guys that we've been friends with. Sanjay Mehrotra was at SanDisk. I was the chairman of that company. Now he's off doing Micron. You know, Jensen, we knew him when he had 30 engineers in Santa Clara and so on. You know, Hock Tan.

埃隆·马斯克也是朋友。

Elon Musk was friends.

没错。所以，有。

Exactly. And so, there's.

你曾经是特斯拉的 CEO，对吧？

You used to be a CEO of Tesla, right?

对。那只是一瞬间的事，是的。但是，现在我们在这里，我们都是朋友也是竞争对手，这就是个大杂烩。我有时会从媒体那里听到这个问题。你对和这些人竞争、同时又是朋友、他们还投资了你，这件事怎么看？你和英伟达竞争，而英伟达是投资者，现在政府也是投资者，这不是很棒吗？

Right. That was for a nanosecond, yeah. But, here we are and we're all friends and competitors and it's just this big mix. And I get this question sometimes from the media. How do you feel about the fact that you're competing with these people and you're friends with them and they're invested in you. You compete with Nvidia and Nvidia is an investor and now the government's an investor and isn't it just a wonderful thing that we have?

你知道，迈克，我们已经是 40、50 年的朋友了，我一直很珍视友谊。尽管我们在多个领域是合作伙伴，但我们仍然是朋友。而且，桑杰·梅赫罗特拉是我非常亲密的朋友，他和他的妻子以及我们的家人都是。所以，总的来说，我不把他们视为竞争对手。我认为市场足够大。我们只是想办法为所有人创造更大的市场，这样你就可以和朋友合作。而且，如果你记得这项研究，我是人脉最广的人，尤其是在技术方面。所以从某些方面来说，向朋友学习总是好的，有些朋友成了我很好的导师。

You know, Mike, we have been friends for 40, 50 years now and I always value friendship. And we still stay as friends even though we are partners in multiple areas. But, always good that Sanjay Mehrotra is a very dear friend of mine and then with his wife and our family. So, I think all in all, I don't view them as competitors. I view the market as big enough. We just find how to create a bigger market for all of us so that you can work with friends. And I'm, if you remember this research, I'm the most connected person, especially on the technology side. And so in some ways it's always good to learn from friends and some of the friends become very good mentors to me.

当然。

Sure.

而且他们在我职业发展方面确实非常有帮助。同样地，我也尽量花时间与一些年轻的 CEO 交流，我非常喜欢与他们中的一些人共事。

And they turn out to be very helpful in terms of my career development. And likewise, I try to extend my time with some of the younger CEOs and I really enjoy working with some of them.

嗯，我知道你的时间很紧张，你还要应付我们那些著名的政客之类的事情，每隔一天就要上 CNBC 什么的。我非常感谢你抽出时间来做这个，我的朋友。这对我们所有人来说都是一次很棒的经历。陈立武。

Well, I know that there are a lot of demands on your time and you have to deal with our famous politicians and all this stuff and go on CNBC every other day or whatever it is. I can't possibly thank you enough for carving out some time to do this, my friend. This is a wonderful experience for all of us. Lip-Bu Tan.

非常感谢。

Thanks a lot.

陈立武领先同行近 40 年。他一直相信硅是基础，其他一切都运行在它之上。过去 20 年，软件获得了估值和资本。他仍然继续向芯片公司投资，而且在很长一段时间里，他几乎是独自一人这样做。他从未改变自己的想法。是行业中的其他人最终改变了他们的想法。去年，美国芯片公司占据了全球市场 53% 的份额，这是自 1984 年以来美国最高的份额。这位多年来向持怀疑态度的听众解释半导体为何重要的男人，如今正经营着美国最重要的半导体公司，华盛顿、英伟达和软银都在其股东名单上。早慧是孤独的工作。现在不再那么孤独了。感谢收听 Celesta Capital 的 Tech Surge 播客。如果你喜欢这一集，欢迎分享、订阅或在您最喜欢的播客平台上留下评论。我们每两周回来一次，带来更多关于深度科技的真知灼见和讨论。

Lip-Bu has been ahead of the pack for nearly 40 years. He's always believed silicon is the foundation and everything else runs on top of it. For the past 20 years, software got the valuations and the capital. He kept writing checks into chip companies anyway, and for long stretches, he was doing it nearly alone. He never changed his mind. It's the rest of the industry that has finally changed theirs. American chip companies took 53% of the global market last year, the highest US share since 1984. The man who spent years explaining to skeptical rooms why semiconductors mattered is now running the most consequential semiconductor company in America with Washington, Nvidia, and SoftBank all on the cap sheet. Being right early is lonely work. It's a lot less lonely now. Thanks for tuning in to the Tech Surge podcast from Celesta Capital. If you enjoyed this episode, feel free to share it, subscribe, or leave a review on your favorite podcast platform. We'll be back every 2 weeks with more insights and discussions of all things deep tech.