设计 Inflight：设计师从 0 到 1 的创业幕后

如果你要创建一家初创公司，你可以以设计师的身份来做。你不必遵循别人决定创建公司时的剧本。

If you're creating a startup, you can make it as a designer. You don't have to follow a playbook of how someone else decided they wanted to create a company.

欢迎来到 Dive Club。我是 Ridd，这里是设计师永不停歇的学习之地。本周的节目对我来说很特别，因为我们将听到我的联合创始人 Kyle Barber 的分享，我们将深入探讨设计师如何在当今疯狂的大环境中，从 0 到 1 打造一家像 Inflight 这样的新初创公司。

Welcome to Dive Club. My name is Ridd and this is where designers never stop learning. This week's episode is a special one for me because we get to hear from my co-founder Kyle Barber and we're going to do a deep dive into what it's like as designers going 0 to 1 on a new startup like Inflight in the middle of the insanity that is today's landscape.

我的意思是，我觉得在过去 18 个月里，我作为设计师的成长比职业生涯中任何阶段都多。所以，今天我们会尽力为大家捕捉这段旅程。那么事不宜迟，以下就是一切的开端。

I mean, I feel like I've grown as much as a designer in the last 18 months than any point in my career. So, we're going to do our best to capture that journey for you today. So without further ado, here's how it all started.

我想在我职业生涯的大部分时间里，我创造的产品基本上都是出于直接的需求，比如我知道的某个用例。当时我和 Naval Ravikant 和 Brian Norgard 一起做一个叫 Airchat 的产品。我是团队里唯一的设计师。获得反馈这件事怎么说呢，很有趣——两人都是非常有成就的创始人，超级忙，有家庭，他们的沟通方式主要是通过短信或 Signal。作为团队里唯一的设计师，我在获取工作反馈、整理反馈以及知道如何处理所有这些方面遇到了很多困难。

I think for most of my career, the products that I've created have just been off of a direct need essentially, like some use case that I knew. And at the time I was working with Naval Ravikant and Brian Norgard on a product called Airchat. And I was the only designer on the team. And getting feedback was interesting to say the least, like both are extremely accomplished founders and super busy, have families, and their communication style was largely through text message or Signal. And as the only designer on the team, I was just having a lot of trouble getting feedback on my work and organizing it and knowing what to do with all of that.

于是我当时就开始拼凑一个小副业项目，想着我能做什么来更好地向那两位展示我的作品——因为我一直希望我的作品能引起他们的共鸣——同时也能收集他们的反馈，这样我就不用翻几个月的 iMessage 来找我们为什么做出或没做出某个决定的上下文了。所以就开始为我自己的用例做原型，然后到了某个时刻，我想这还挺有用的，也许我应该分享给其他人，就发了一条推文，很多其他设计师也同意这值得追求。

So I started hacking together a little side project in that moment and was just like what can I do to both present my work better to those two because I always wanted my work to resonate with them and also how to collect their feedback so I wasn't scrolling through months of iMessage to try to find the context of why we did or didn't do a specific decision. So just started prototyping something for my own use case and then at a certain point I was like well this is kind of helpful maybe I should share this with other people and post a little tweet about it and a lot of other designers agreed that it was something worth pursuing.

快速说个消息，然后我们继续。我电脑上只有一个应用我每天 literally 用几百次，那就是 Raycast。现在他们把听写功能直接内置到 Raycast 2.0 里，我的使用量又上了一个新台阶。我 literally 取消了 Super Whisper 的订阅，因为它就是那么好。设计一如既往地优雅，符合你对 Raycast 团队的期待，但还有一些非常强大的功能真正把它提升到了新水平。我最喜欢的功能之一是样式。它允许你为特定应用和网站设置自定义指令。所以我在写代码时可以得到干净的提示，甚至在口述 Dive 新闻稿时自动将输出结构化为 Markdown。这只是我推荐在电脑上安装的第一个东西是 Raycast 的又一个原因。所以，如果你还没在用，请前往 dive.club/raycast 注册。

So real quick message and then we can jump back into it. There's only one app on my computer that I use literally hundreds of times per day and it's Raycast. And now that they have dictation built right into Raycast 2.0 my usage has gone to a whole other level. I literally cancelled my Super Whisper subscription because it's that good. The design is as elegant as you'd expect from the Raycast team, but there are some seriously powerful features that really take it to the next level. And one of my favorites is styles. It allows you to set up custom instructions for specific apps and websites. So, I can get clean prompts when I'm building in code or even automatically structure my output as markdown when I'm dictating the dive newsletter. It's just another reason why Raycast is the very first thing I recommend installing on a computer. So, if you're somehow not using it already, head to dive.club/raycast to sign up.

可以说这是你成为 Paper 早期用户的最后机会。感觉 Twitter 上人人都在谈论它。我的意思是，嘉宾们不断在节目中提起它。他们刚刚完成了大规模 A 轮融资，Paper 很快成为用智能体交付产品的人的首选设计工具。它真的感觉是专门为这种新的工作方式而构建的，这也是我每天使用它的一个重要原因。所以，如果你还在观望，请前往 dive.club/paper，我想你很快就会明白为什么这么多设计师在转向它。现在，回到节目。

I think it's safe to say that this is your last chance to be early on Paper. And it feels like everybody is talking about it on Twitter. I mean, guests are constantly bringing it up on this show. They just raised a massive Series A and Paper's pretty quickly become the design tool of choice for people shipping with agents. It really feels like it was built specifically for this new way of working and that's a big reason why I use it every single day. So, if you're still sleeping, head to dive.club/paper and I think you're really quickly going to realize why so many designers are making the switch. Now, on to the episode.

我记得在这个季节第一次和你重新联系，至少有好几年没见了。你说你在做一个东西，给了我一点预告。很酷，我有点在鼓励你去做，但后来 Airchat 有了病毒式传播的时刻。我仍然坚持认为 Airchat 刚发布的那两周是我在社交媒体上玩得最开心的时光，这有点推迟了事情。看到你什么时候会跳出来挺有意思的，因为我觉得这可能比你想象的要花更长一点时间。

I remember reconnecting with you during this season for the first time in like at least a few years. You were saying you were working on a thing. You gave me a little teaser. It was cool and I was kind of willing you to do it, but then Airchat had the viral moment. I will still die on the hill that the two weeks where Airchat first launched was the most fun that I've ever had on social media which kind of delayed things. It was kind of interesting to see when you were going to make the jump because I think it probably took a little bit longer than you thought.

是的。

Yeah.

我想我整个职业生涯无论怎样都有一个副业项目。所以这一直就像是一个相当不错的副业项目，但这是第一次，它不是一个糟糕的想法。我想我做过毛巾、笔、随机的体育应用以及一堆为自己做的东西，但从未真正连接起来。而这个是让我觉得‘好吧，这背后有足够的东西。也许值得一试。’

I think my whole career I've been having a side project no matter what. So, this was always kind of like this is a pretty good side project, but for the first time, it wasn't an awful idea. I think I was making towels and pens and random sports apps and a bunch of things for myself that never actually connected. And this was the one I was like, 'Okay, there's enough behind this. Maybe it's worth going for.'

在哪个时刻，带我们回到你意识到它值得追求的那一刻。发生了什么？

At what point, like, take us to that moment where you realized that it was worth going for. What happened?

我觉得有很多不同的层次，因为最初的概念就像这个市场，对吧？那并不是一个真正可获风投投资的公司，更像是：我能拉谁进来分享批评，比如你上传一些东西，也许付 20 美元，有点像 intro.co 如果你用过的话，你可以让一个设计师快速进来，高层次地审查你的作品，那本来会很酷——我实际上认为如果有人想做，可能仍然有生意可做，但经济模型你知道，很难实现。所以我认为它可以是我做其他工作时的一个副业，也许只是拥有这个小网络或市场业务。我实际上不完全记得什么时候转变成了‘好吧，那个想法可能不会成为大生意，但还有另一个’。老实说，可能是在和你交谈时，我们就在想我们能不能为团队构建这个，有没有其他不只是纯粹……

I think there were a lot of different shades of that because there was an initial concept which was just like this marketplace, right? That is it's not really a VC fundable company and it was more just like who can I get on board to just share critique like you upload something and maybe pay $20 kind of like intro.co if you ever use that and you can just have a designer just come in quickly and review your work on a high level and that would have been cool like I actually think there's still probably business out there if someone wanted to do that but the economics you know it's a hard one to pull off so I thought it could be something on the side while I was doing other work and you know maybe just have this little network or marketplace business going and I actually don't fully remember when it transitioned to be like okay that idea probably isn't going to be like a big one but there's another one it honestly might have been talking with you where we're just like could we build this for teams is there something else that's not just pure

我记得那一刻，我们当时在工作——为听众提供背景，当我加入 Inflight 时，它是一个设计反馈市场，那是我兴奋的地方。我们开始做它，我们有一群不可思议的人来审查你的作品，其中很多人上过节目，这带来了自己的挑战。但后来有一天，我们不得不做一个工具，让人们提交作品，然后让审查者进来。我记得我们的另一位联合创始人 Ver，他做了这个产品，就像最初的视频光标，你可以在画布上飞来飞去，但它甚至不是视频，实际上只是光标跟踪。我记得我们在测试它，我有那么一刻，我想‘天哪，我会用这个而不是 Loom’。我在过去的每个职位都用 Loom，它感觉完全是魔法。至少对我来说，那一刻就像是‘哦，糟糕，我们是在做设计工具吗？’

I remember the moment we were working at this point for context for people listening like when I joined Inflight was a marketplace for design feedback that was what I was excited about we started working on it we had this incredible roster of a bunch of people that would review your work and a lot of them had been like guests on the show that was presenting its own challenges but then there was one day where we had to make a tool in order for people to submit their work and then the reviewers to come in and I remember Ver our other co-founder and he made this product where like the original video cursor and you could fly around on the canvas but it wasn't even a video it was actually just cursor tracking and I remember we were testing that and I had this moment where I was like oh my gosh I would use this instead of Loom like I've used Loom in every past roll and it just felt like complete magic where at least for me that was the moment it was like oh shoot are we making design tool.

是的。

Yeah.

我记得，我的意思是，当时还是 Figma 的天下，所以有很多有趣的技术挑战需要克服。比如我们试图把 Figma 文件嵌入到某个 iframe 里，还有一堆——我们也有一个 Figma 插件，可以把你所有的屏幕……

And I remember, I mean, it was still Figma land, so there were a lot of interesting technical challenges of how to pull all this off. Like we were trying to embed the Figma files inside of some iframe and had a bunch of—we had a Figma plugin as well that would take all your screens...

整个产品……让人不禁想，天哪，那里有很多次迭代。

The whole product... makes you think jeez there was a lot of iterations there.

甚至退一步说，我觉得这次对话的目标之一就是记录这段曲折的旅程，因为我们一开始是要打造一个产品——我的意思是，最初你是要打造一个解决你自己问题的产品——我加入是因为我真的很共鸣于获取反馈这个领域。这是我一直很关心的事情。我长期只做远程工作。你知道，我们想为自己打造一个东西，但我们日常工作和工作的本质在这段——我们选择在科技工具史上最疯狂的 18 个月里创办一家工具公司。思考与之相关的产品策略和定位真的很有挑战性，我希望这能对很多人有启发。所以也许就继续这段旅程——比如我们有一个工具，我们认为我们有一个工具——你甚至还记得那个阶段 figuring out 这里有没有东西、我们应该打造什么之类的事情吗？

And even just stepping back for a second, like I think one of my goals for this conversation is to just capture the winding journey because we set out to build a product—I mean originally you set out to build a product that solves your—I joined because I really resonated with this problem space of getting feedback. It's something that I've cared a lot about. I've only worked remotely for a very long time. You know, we wanted to build a thing for ourselves and yet the very nature of our day-to-day and our job changed so extremely over the—like we chose to build a tooling company in the most insane 18 months in the history of tech tools. And thinking through product strategy and positioning associated with that has been really challenging and my hope is that it actually can be enlightening for a lot of people. And so maybe even just continuing on with the journey—like we have a tool, what we think we have a tool—what do you even remember from that season of even figuring out like is there something here, what should we be building, that kind of a thing?

嗯，这 probably 只是对大量发布并让用户使用的证明，我认为这是我们一直做得好的地方。

Well, it's probably just a testament for launching a lot and getting it in user hands, which is something I think we've done well the whole time.

这实际上让我想到了最初的概念，那其实是我的一个内部工具，然后我发布了它，很多人分享了他们的作品。它本来不是要做一个市场，但有数百人上传设计、Figma 文件。最初的原型就是粘贴你的 Figma 链接，然后我在上面录一段语音。我做了大概一百次，然后我想等等，我是不是应该——有人突然给我转了 20 美元，他们问，能不能就付钱请你评审？这超级有帮助。然后我有了那个时刻，我想等等，我们是不是应该把其他人和其他人连接起来——如果这里有金钱转移，那是个好迹象。但有趣的是它的循环，因为它最初只是给团队的工具，然后是市场，然后我们用更多人测试市场，他们说你需要付费——我们那里有一些大牌设计师，可能每小时 300 美元，对吧？那不行，评审——那个金额，就是行不通。但我们发布了，对吧？我们看到了，我们得到了反馈，我们切换。我想我们做了 100 次。所以一方面，这对于找到什么是好产品的真相来源非常有好处。另一方面，真的很难——两个设计师不断处于这种完美主义状态，编辑并说不够好，一遍又一遍。

And it actually just made me think of the very first concept, which was actually an internal tool for me that I then posted about and had so many people share their work. Like it wasn't meant to be a marketplace, but I had like hundreds of people uploading designs, Figma files. Like the initial prototype was just paste your Figma link and then I'll record a voiceover on top of it. And I was doing that like I did like a hundred times and I was like wait a minute, like should I be like—someone sent me $20 out of nowhere, like they're asking, they're like can I just pay you for the review? Like it was super helpful. And then I got that moment I was like wait a minute, like should we like connect other people with other—like if there's money being transferred here that's a good sign. But it's funny, like the loop of it, cuz it was just a tool for teams and then marketplace and then we tested the marketplace with more people and they're like you would have to pay—we had some huge designers on there that were maybe $300 an hour, right? Like that's not it, like to review—like that's the amount and it just wasn't working. But we launched, right? We like saw it, we had people give us feedback, we switch. Like I think we've done that a 100 times. And so in one way that's really good to get to like a source of truth of what's a good product. On another way it's really hard to—two designers and constantly in this perfectionist state like editing and saying it's not good enough over and over again.

是的，那里肯定有一个滑坡。比如这是我职业生涯中第一次在早期阶段与另一位设计师合作。我只做过从零到一的事情，而且我一直是唯一的设计师。我觉得有很多，你知道，成长的痛苦，不仅要弄清楚这一点，还有我们作为设计师的工作方式也非常非常不同。

Yeah, there's a slippery slope there for sure. Like this was the very first time that I've worked early stage with another designer in my entire career. I've only done the zero to one thing and I've only been the only designer. I think there was a lot of, you know, growing pains figuring out not only that but like we worked very very differently as designers too.

这有点迷人，我们俩在技术上——比如我在 Meta 做过受雇设计师，你知道，我们都有全职产品设计师的工作，但我认为在设计师意味着什么的维恩图上，我们只有 5% 的重叠。我来自教过数百个企业团队如何高水平使用 Figma，比如所有东西都用自动布局，用框架而不是组，一切超级有条理，组件，在 Figma 里有点洁癖。然后我试着在你的文件上迭代，你就说——

It's kind of fascinating how we're both technically—like I was an employed designer like at Meta, you know, we both had full product designer jobs but I think we have like 5% overlap in the Venn diagram of what it means to be a designer. I'm coming from having taught hundreds of enterprise teams how to use Figma at a high level, like auto layout everything, frames over groups, everything's super organized, components, a little bit of a neat freak in Figma. And then I would try to iterate on your files and you're like—

矩形、组，从来不做——你可能甚至——直到今天，你到今天可能还不知道自动布局的键盘快捷键，就像——

Rectangles, groups, never do—you probably don't even—to the day, you still to this day you probably don't know the keyboard shortcut for auto layout, like—

我从来没有——我这辈子大概只用过一次自动布局。就像我只是——我不知道。我来自——我从 Photoshop 开始，对吧，一切都是文件夹，然后 Sketch 出现了，一切都是文件夹。就像我不知道，这只是我的心智模型。我一直只是想做出正确的产品。就像我只是想把它交到人们手中，而我工艺的那部分——就像它总是只是满足需求。就像我不想发布一个看起来不好的东西，所以我自学了那个，但我肯定更偏向产品侧，而我认为你更偏向工艺，比如设计 UI、交互。

I've never—I've used auto layout like one time in my life. Like I just—I don't know. I came from—I started in Photoshop, right, and everything was like folders, and then Sketch came along, everything was folders. Like I don't know, this is just my mental model. I've always just wanted to like make the product right. Like I just wanted to get it in people's hands and the craft part of me—like it was always just fulfilling the need. Like I didn't want to launch something that didn't look great, so I taught myself that, but I definitely index further on the product side where I think you're much more like craft, like design UI, interaction.

不过我们花了一点时间才实现这种翻转，因为你是最初的那个人——我记得你第一次所谓的 onboard 我，因为我在你和 Ver 开始做第一版产品几个月后加入的，你给我看了一个真正的产品。就像你做了一个真正的产品。你设计了全部。它看起来很好。我记得我几乎被你的进展吓了一跳，然后我理解了。我记得我在哪里。老兄，我记得我在哪里。我在我朋友的游泳池，你给我发短信，大概是说，‘嘿，老兄，我觉得我们应该交换。我觉得你应该做更多的设计。’你给我看这些概念和这些——我说，‘老兄，我在做什么？我为什么还要尝试？你太擅长这个了。你天生就非常擅长设计系统。’这是一个容易的决定，但我当时在试图强迫。我当时想，因为你也——我的意思是，从我这边看，你是一个著名的设计播客，有一个巨大的课程，有很多事情要做。我想，好吧，我们能一起工作本身就很有趣。我不想让这个人超负荷。但后来我很快意识到你的工作风格是，如果我做某事，我会 100% 投入。没有中间地带。

It took us a little bit to kind of have that flipping though, cuz you were the original person—like I remember when you first like quote unquote onboarded me, cuz I joined like months after you and Ver had started working on the first version of the product and you showed me like a real product. Like you had made a real product. You had designed all of it. It looked good. I remember being almost caught off guard by how far you were and then getting it. I remember where I was. Dude, I remember where I was. I was at my friend's pool and you texted me something along the lines of like, 'Hey man, I think we should switch. Like I think you should do more of the design.' You were showing me these concepts and these—I'm like, 'Dude, what am I doing? Like why am I even trying? Like you're so good at this. Like you're just naturally really skilled at like the design system of it.' It was an easy decision, but I was like trying to force. I was like cuz you were also like—I mean coming from my end you're like famous design podcaster with a huge course with tons on your plate. And I'm like all right just like the fact that we get to work together is fun. Like I'm not trying to like overload this dude. But then I quickly realize your work style is like if I'm doing something I'm going to do it 100%. And there's no in between.

有一小段时间你试图做中间地带。我想，‘天哪，这不会——这不会发生的。’

There was like a little period where you were trying to do in between. I'm like, 'God, this isn't—this isn't going to happen.'

不，我在 Figma 里肯定是个恶霸。

No, I'm a bully in Figma for sure.

为了最好。就像我的意思是，显然你的想法是 sign——我的意思是，即使现在我们在代码里，它仍然更干净。我的意思是，它到了你反正就信任 Fable 的地步。但是——

For the best. Like I mean like clearly your thought was sign—I mean even now when we're in code it's still cleaner. I mean it's getting to a point where you just trust Fable anyways. But—

那我们稍微跑个题，因为我觉得我们真正有趣的地方在于我们都是设计师。我们设计了很多年。我们处于这样的环境，可以做任何我们想做的事，因为我们是自己的老板，团队很小，我们只是在尝试各种东西。

Let's take a little quick tangent then, because I think what's really interesting about us is we're both designers. We've been designing for a very long time. We are in this environment where we can kind of do whatever the heck we want because we're our own bosses and it's a small team and we're just trying a bunch of things.

所以我觉得我们能够真正深入地利用 AI 让我们成为的样子。我很好奇，从我们现在描述的这个阶段——我们俩都只是在 Figma 里复制和破坏对方的东西——到今天我们的日常工作，这有趣地截然不同。这如何影响了你对未来设计师原型的思考？

And so I feel like we've been able to lean really far into what AI can allow us to become. And I guess I'm curious going from the point that we're describing right now where we're both kind of just duplicating and breaking each other's stuff in Figma to what our day-to-day looks like today which is hilariously different. How has that informed the way that you think about the future archetypes of designers?

从高层来说？就像我 15 年前开始的时候，目标一直只是把东西放到用户面前，对吧？我记得我很小的时候，我爸爸是个木匠。我们经常一起做家具，对吧？那些家具是用来使用的，不是用来看的，对吧？你不会只想把它放在角落里，看起来漂亮但不实用什么的。现在 AI 允许所有这些，就像如果你只是喜欢建造东西，对吧？如果你喜欢为某人创造东西，这一直是我认为设计中最喜欢的部分。这真是最疯狂的时代。能够做到所有这些而不需要引入其他人，这是多么令人难以置信的赋能时刻。整个系统，你的设计思维都适用。你就像，“哇，这些是我要在代码上做的决定。”所有这一切。我希望这能继续赋能未来的设计师。我希望它不会完全局限于“哇，我只负责 UI 部分”。我认为设计思维是一种非常强大的特质，拥有它让你能够从零到一扩展一个产品。所以我很高兴我们不必停留在最初被放入的那个小盒子里。但我很好奇你怎么看。

At a high level? Like even how I started like 15 years ago, the goal was always just to like put something in front of users, right? And I think very early in my life like my dad was a carpenter. We used to build furniture together, right? Like it didn't like the furniture was built to be used, not look at like right you didn't want to just like have it over in the corner and have it look really pretty but not be functional or whatever. The fact that AI now allows like all of that kind of just like if if you just liked building things, right? If you like creating things for someone, which I always thought was like the my favorite part of design. It's just the craziest time. Like what a incredible empowering moment to be able to do all of it without having to bring someone else in. And like the whole system, your design thinking is applicable. You're just like, "Wow, these are the decisions I want to make on the code." Like all of it. I hope that that is is continuing to empower like the future designer. I hope that you know it's not just completely stuck on like wow I was only responsible for like how like the UI of it. I think design thinking is such a powerful trait and to have that allows you to extend you know from zero to one on a product. So I'm glad that we don't have to stay in that very small like box that we were put in originally. But I'm curious how you see it.

是的，我认为角色之间有很多重叠。我确实认为我们已经分成了几种不同类型的角色，尽管我们都是设计师，这对我来说说明了正在发生的重叠，我觉得你拥抱了很多产品策略更高层次的东西，比如愿景塑造，这是我们要的，这是我们要指向的北极星作为产品，是的，你可以执行设计中的任何想法，但你在产品方面非常擅长，历史上我觉得那是我倾向于的领域，但这是我第一次和某人合作，我觉得实际上我会帮忙，但那个是你的，你知道，那绝对是你的领域，另一方面，作为一个真正受工艺驱动的人，我喜欢细节，我喜欢琢磨缓动曲线之类的，那给我很多生命力，对我来说维恩图是一直深入到工程领域，

Yeah I think that there's a lot of overlap between roles. I do think that we have kind of settled into a couple different types of roles even though we're both designers which to me speaks to that overlap that is happening where I feel like you've embraced a lot of the product strategy higher level like vision casting here's what we want here's the north star that we want to point at as a product and yeah you can execute literally any idea in design but you spike really hard in product historically I feel like that's an area that I've kind of leaned into but this is the very first time where I've been working with someone and I'm like actually like I'll help but like you got that you know like that's your lane for sure and on the flip side as somebody who's really motivated by craft I like being in the details I like sweating little you know easing curves like that's something that brings me a lot of life the ven diagram for me has been going really far into engineering where

我拥有很多代码，我认为我现在开始涉足的领域开始变得非常有趣，不仅 AI 让我进入代码，AI 也让我进入数据。比如，你可以很快地创建一个 PR 来跟踪你想跟踪的一切，构建管道来学习你想学的东西，现在我有 Grok Bot 每天四次给我提供洞察，就像，嘿，这是通过漏斗的人。我们上次谈话时，这个人卡在这里。这个人卡在这里。你想让我给他们发邮件吗？你知道，我们应该创建一个 PR 开始做这个吗？你可以主动构建自己的洞察管道，然后你有完全的自主权去执行，而不需要向任何人推销。那是什么角色我甚至不知道

I'm just owning so much code and I think the foray that I'm in the beginnings of now that's starting to be really fun is not only is AI allowing owing me to get into the code, but AI is allowing me to get into the data, too. Like, you can really quickly whip up a PR to track everything that you want to track, build pipelines to learn what you want, and now I just have Grok Bot delivering me like insights four times a day, it's like, hey, here's people that have went in through the funnel. The last time that we talked, this person got stuck here. This person got stuck here. Do you want me to email them? You know, should we whip up a PR to start doing this? and you can like proactively build your own insight pipelines and then you have full autonomy to just go and execute it without having to make a pitch to anybody. That is I don't even know what kind of role that is

因为它跨越了一切，对吧？是的。就像这时候太老套了。就像老兄，那是个该死的产品构建者。是的。

cuz it it straddles everything, right? Yeah. Like it's like so cliche this time. It's like dude that's a freaking product builder. Yes.

你对自己不够自信，因为我觉得你总是在采访的一方，但一般来说你是我合作过的最好的设计师。我认为很多时候人们看你工作过的大公司名字，试图根据你工作过的公司来判断你有多优秀的设计师。但你在 Inflight 过去两年的工作令人难以置信。我在 Valocon 看到你展示的一些东西，我就像这家伙大家都认为他是播客 guy，但他真的非常有才华。就像你采访的人大多数时候应该采访你，因为你的技能是首屈一指的，看到你为自己创建的所有系统来创造好工作，在我看来是产品设计师的本质，你设计了整个套件来最大化你的输出，你的目标和我一样，我认为这就是我们合作的原因，我们都想把伟大的东西放在用户面前，我们只是有不同的思考方式。我的意思是，坐下来看你提出的一些概念，然后看着它说，“哇，我永远不会想到这样做。”那种阴阳是惊人的。

Like you don't give yourself enough credit cuz I think you're always on the interview side, but like generally you're the best designer I've ever worked with. And I think a lot of the time people look at like big logo names of where you worked and try to like get a sense of like how good of a designer you are based off the companies you've worked at. But like the work that you've done in the last like 2 years at Inflight is unbelievable. And I was at Valocon getting to like watch a little bit of what you were presenting and I was just like this guy everyone thinks he's the podcast guy but he's genuinely like unbelievably talent. like it's it's so far from the like the people you're interviewing like should be interviewing you most of the time because your skill is second to none and getting to see all the systems that you create for yourself just to create good work is the essence of like a product designer in my head like you you design the the whole suite of things to maximize your output essentially and and your goal is just same as mine like I I think that's what makes us work is we're both like let's put something great in front of users we just both have different ways of thinking about that I mean, it's it's incredible to like sit back and watch some of the concepts you come up with and and just look at it and be like, "Wow, I never would have thought to do that." And the yin and yang of that is is amazing.

人们会以为我付钱让你来的。但是，呃，我觉得我要开始敲鼓了。更多人需要知道，老兄。就像你对此很谦虚，但天哪，你在这里采访这么出色是有原因的。你理解工艺。不过你说的有道理，我觉得我的眼界打开了，就像我在 Valiacon 谈到的。我的眼界打开了，看到有多少可能性围绕你的工作方式构建小系统。我认为大多数讨论都是关于使用 AI 向最终用户交付东西，完全正确。你也可以设计你自己设计过程和信息摄入的每一部分。那里有太多的创造力。我认为我一直是个系统迷。老兄，我觉得现在正是系统迷疯狂的时候。看到我启动一个小东西，看到你有八个小部件在运行，真的很有趣。我就像，好的，酷。那让我的生活变得非常轻松。谢谢，Red。我认为解锁我在那个领域深入研究的另一个因素是你一直在处理所有实际的业务，戴上了更多传统 CEO 的帽子。

People are going to think that I paid you to to come on here. But, uh, I feel like I'm going to start banging that drum here. More people need to know, dude. It's like you're so humble about it, but jeez, like there's a reason you're so good at being an interview here. You understand the craft. There is something to what you're saying though where I feel like my eyes have been opened and it was what I talked about at Valiacon. My eyes have been opened to how much possibility there is to build little systems around you for how you work. And I think most of the discourse is around using AI to you know ship something to the end user and like totally that's 100% true. You can also design every part of your own design process and information intake. And there's so much creativity in that. And I think I've always been kind of like a systems nerd. Dude, I feel like right now is like the time for systems nerds to crazy. It's so fun just seeing like I'll I'll spin something up a little close and see like eight little widgets you have going on. I'm like, okay, cool. Like that just made my life really easy. Thanks, Red. I think another thing that unlocks my ability to kind of nerd out in that area is the fact that you've been running with all of the actual business stuff like wearing a little bit more of the traditional CEO hat.

所以也许你可以稍微谈谈这一点，比如作为一个长期设计师，你带着创业公司去拼搏，那就是你的职责范围。过去几年对你来说那是什么样的体验？

So maybe you could even touch on that a little bit, like as a longtime designer who's going for it with a startup, and that is your set of responsibilities. Like what's that even been like for you over the last couple years?

我觉得这是一个很常见的主题：设计思维可以应用到一切。所以我在创建公司时也总是有同样的感觉，甚至包括你如何对待公司里的人。我认为那是一个决定，对我来说，总是以你希望被对待的方式对待别人。我记得有一个老老板，他特别好打官司，希望每个人都尊重他作为 CEO。我认为有所有这些小决定，如果你在创建一家初创公司，作为设计师你可以做出这些决定。你不必遵循别人决定创建公司时所遵循的剧本。这适用于你的品牌如何被感知、信息传达、融资、你是否想先自力更生。有那么多小决定，我认为你只是从你认为什么是好的设计出发倒推。这一直是我的北极星：你能创建一家你引以为豪的公司吗？人们想和你一起工作，人们喜欢你的产品，你拿出一些让人们感到快乐的东西，周围有一个社区。这一直是我倒推的起点，而不是哦我们能赚多少钱，我们能不能把这个变成一家万亿美元的公司。只是我们能不能做出对我们和周围其他人有价值的东西。对我们有价值这一点，我认为在过去 18 个月里我越来越欣赏，因为这是一个多么不可思议的时刻，有资金和激励去探索和构建，基本上和你的朋友们一起。我认为这很难，从... 我真正纠结的一件事是，老兄，我们已经在这上面工作了一段时间了，伙计。你知道，就像刚刚正式上市。我们已经在这上面工作了一段时间。我认为有很多变量导致这变得具有挑战性，我们可以深入探讨，但我能够以很多感激之情看待一切，因为就像，你知道，你只是和你的兄弟们一起成长，尝试一堆东西，那有多酷，你知道吗？

I think it's a pretty common theme throughout this: design thinking can be applied to everything. So I always feel the same with company creation, even just how you treat people in the company. I think that's a decision, and for me it's always treat people how you want to be treated. I remember having an old boss that was really litigious and wanted everyone to respect him as a CEO. And I think there are all these small decisions that if you're creating a startup, you can make as a designer. You don't have to follow a playbook of how someone else decided they wanted to create a company. That applies to how your brand is perceived, the messaging, fundraising, do you want to bootstrap first. There are so many small decisions, and I think you kind of just work backwards from what you think is a good design. And that's always been my north star: can you create a company that you're proud of, that people want to work with you, that people like your product, that you put something on the table that makes people feel happy, that there's a community around it. It's always just been where I work back from, not like oh how much money can we make, can we turn this thing into a trillion-dollar company. It's just can we make something that is valuable to us and other people around. The valuable to us piece I think I've grown in appreciation for over the last 18 months because what an incredible time to have funding and an incentive to just explore and build basically with your friends. And I think it is hard from a... one of the things I really wrestle with is dude we've been working on this for a while, man. You know, like literally just formally went to market. We've been working on this for a while. I think there's a lot of variables for why that gets challenging and we can get into those, but I'm able to look at everything with a lot of gratitude because it's like, you know, you just get to grow together with your homies and try a bunch of things and how cool is that, you know?

是的。我认为这可能是未来的趋势，你知道，有很多机会基本上和你的朋友们一起创建整个企业，你知道，也许不是所有都是 VC 的万亿美元成果，但现在自力更生比以往任何时候都更受欢迎。而且，你知道，你不必组建一个八人团队来实现你的想法。所以，我当然对未来感到兴奋，能够快速启动事物，决定你想如何工作，公司应该是什么样子。如果你能把设计思维的视角应用到你所做的一切，那有很多价值。

Yeah. And I think that's going to be the trend probably moving forward, you know, like there's a lot of opportunities to create whole businesses with your friends essentially that, you know, maybe not all of them are VC trillion dollar outcomes, but bootstrapping now is more popular than ever. And there's, you know, you don't have to get a team of eight people to bring your idea to life. So, I'm certainly excited for the future of just being able to spin things up, determine how you want to work, how the company is supposed to look. There's a lot of value in that if you can, you know, apply that design thinking lens to everything you do.

几个有设计技能的想法人，然后一个转向确保我们不会用所有的 PR 破坏一切。我认为工程师们将开始不得不更多地参与产品和设计思维，因为会达到一个点，模型足够好，不会破坏东西，当然还没有，但我们的前进方式是，你有一个非常好的洞察吗？你有足够的架构理解来组合一些东西吗？这不仅仅是技术性的，而是流程、业务，你是否正确地开展所有业务，如果你能做到这一点，那里有很多机会。我不相信软件完全死了，你知道，我认为会有很多口袋，人们可以在那里创造价值。

A few idea people with some design chops and then a veer to make sure that we don't break everything with all of our PRs. I think you know the engineers will start having to be more involved with product and design thinking as well because it's going to get to a point where the models are good enough that like it's not going to be breaking things like certainly not yet but like the way we're moving is like do you have a really good insight? Do you have enough like architecture comprehension to put something together and that's not just like technical it's just like the flows like the business like are are you like conducting all of the business correctly um and if you can do that there's a lot of opportunities out there. I don't believe that software is dead completely like you know I think there's there's going to be a lot of pockets where people can create value.

好的，那么我们应该谈谈寻找这些口袋的过程，因为真的很难，你知道，就像

Okay, we should talk a little bit about the process of finding the pockets then because it's been really hard, you know, like

这绝对是两个设计师最难的部分。

It's definitely the hardest part of a two designer.

这些口袋开合非常快。我认为那是

The pockets open and close very quickly. I think that's been

在所有 AI 疯狂中做这件事最难的部分可能是景观在这些周期中不断变化，真的很难预测，尤其是当你在实际创建软件的过程附近构建以及所需的工具时，因为我看看一年前我在做什么，和我今天在做的完全不同。也许我们可以谈谈我们如何纠结于公司的定位，因为归根结底，我认为当你在初创公司作为设计师产生影响时，那就是你在做的，你知道，你在弄清楚定位，然后做什么来执行。那是什么样的？

Probably the hardest part of doing this in the midst of all the AI craziness is the landscape is just shifting in these cycles where it's really difficult to predict especially when you're building anywhere near the process of actually creating software and the tooling required to do so because I look at what I was doing a year ago and it's completely different than what I'm doing today. Maybe we could talk a little bit about even just how we've wrestled with the positioning of the company because at the end of the day I think when you're a designer making an impact at a startup that that's kind of what you're doing you know like you're figuring out the you're figuring out the positioning and then what to do to execute against that. What's that been like?

一年前我不认为你能告诉我设计师不会再在 Figma 里了。我只会假设他们已经弄清楚了 AI 部分，我们仍然会继续沿着那条路走。所以，你知道，当我们开始公司时，就像赌注一样，我永远不会做出不同的赌注，设计师仍然会在 Figma 里。让我们为 Figma 做产品。所以，沿着那条路走需要时间。你提到我们已经在这上面工作了一段时间，但别忘了，一切都需要很多时间来构建。比如 Figma 插件花了大约两周时间构建。你知道，现在对我们来说那是一个道具。所以，现在可能的事情和那时相比有点偏差。但我觉得大概在二月左右，我们达到了一个节奏，好的，我们现在能够快速构建任何东西，机会在哪里，那有点更具挑战性，因为之前是这是机会，就像会是 Figma，我们会在那里找出一个好产品，但当那被剥离后，你就像，我认为每个人，除非你有不可思议的远见，知道即将发生什么，你就像，好的，我们在哪里净得，我的个人角色如何变化，然后你必须调整你的世界观，好的，如果我在做早期的事情，我是什么，很有可能说别人可能有同样的问题。我认为你很擅长这个，实际上我经常依赖你，因为你对这些趋势如此早。比如你是制作自动布局课程的人，对吧？你认识到人们如何工作，因为你在非常好的系统中工作。

A year ago I don't think you could have told me that designers wouldn't be in Figma anymore. I would have just assumed you know they would have figured out the AI piece of it and we still would have been continuing down that path. So, you know, when we started the company, it was like the bet like I I would never have made a different bet than designers will still be in Figma. Let's make products for Figma. So, going down that route took time. And you mentioned that we've been at it we've been at this for a while, but like don't forget like everything took a lot of time to build back. Like the Figma plugin took like two weeks to build. Like, you know, that's one prop now for us. So, it's like it's a little bit skewed of like what's possible now versus then. But I feel like probably around February we we hit a stride of okay we're we're able to kind of build anything now quickly where are the opportunities and that was a little bit more challenging because before it was like this is opportunity like it's going to be Figma like we're going to figure something out a good product there but when that gets stripped you kind of just like I I think everyone unless you had incredible foresight to like what was coming you're kind of just like okay where do we net out like how does how does my personal role change and then you have to adjust your worldview towards like okay what am I if I'm doing something early, like it's decently possible to say someone else might have that same problem. And I think you're really good at like I've leaned on you a lot for that actually cuz you're so early to these trends. Like you were the one making the class on auto layout, right? Like you recognize how people work because you work in really good systems.

所以当时有一些时机问题，我们就在想，那是什么？我们最有信心的是什么？未来会是什么样子？

So there was a bit of timing where we're just like, what is that? Like, what are we most confident in? Like, what does the future look like?

而且那玩意儿每四天就变一次，老兄。

And that would change like every four days too, man.

Conductor 发布了。我们就像，什么，我们在用 Quad Code 对吧？云桌面应用，还有把东西从 ChatGPT 复制粘贴到 Conductor 里。我是说，你整个工作流都变了。你使劲给我推销 Conductor，我就想，哦，这要变了。然后别的什么又会冒出来。我用了之后，就觉得，这可能就是那个了。

Conductor drops. We're like, what, we're doing Quad Code, right? The Claude Desktop app and copy-pasting stuff from ChatGPT into Conductor. I mean, your whole flow changed. You sold me hard on Conductor and I was like, oh, this is going to change. Something else is going to pop up. I used it. I was like, this might be the one.

挺不错的。是的。

It's pretty good. Yeah.

我们上瘾有一阵子了。

We've been hooked for a while.

甚至思考要解决什么样的问题都很有挑战性，尤其是当你为接近 AI 的领域做产品时，因为

Even thinking about the types of problems to solve has been really challenging when you're building for anywhere near AI too because

我记得那一刻，我们刚融了一点钱，这个我们应该聊聊，但人们来找我们时，提出的都是感觉非常短期的问题。比如我记得人们就想要评论功能，你知道，像 Figma 风格的评论。老兄，我们抵制那个。我们抵制了一阵子，因为觉得不不，那是在为旧世界做产品。AI 会改变一切。我们甚至思考如何协作处理产物（artifacts）的方式都会根本性地改变。

I remember this moment where we had just raised a little bit of money, which we should talk about, but people are coming to us with very what felt like short-run problems. Like I remember people just wanted comments, you know, like Figma-style comments. Dude, we fought that. We fought that for a while because it was like, no no, like that's building for an old world. AI is going to change everything. The way that we even think about collaborating on artifacts is going to fundamentally change.

我们深入研究了语音智能体的流程。就像我记得，我是说，我们花了大概两三个月想象一个世界：你把设计发给某人，附在那个设计上的智能体会代表你去采访人们，帮你得到你需要的答案。

We went way down this like voice agent flow. Like I remember, I mean, we spent like two, three months imagining a world where you would send a design to somebody and an agent attached to that design would interview people on your behalf to get you the answers that you need.

有趣的是，Listen Labs 刚以 20 亿美元的价格出售，基于一个非常相似的角度。但你知道，想法不错。那是个陷阱。

Funny, as Listen Labs just sells for $2 billion off of a pretty similar angle for that. But you know, decent idea. That's a trap.

是个不错的想法。是个陷阱。模型当时不够好，一开始它们不够好。比如我们做那个的时候，语音模型还不够好。作为稍微更有前瞻性的设计师，这很难。你会感到压力，要把握事情的发展方向，但这基本上是不可能的。任何说能做到的人，我觉得 mostly 只是运气好，因为

It was a decent idea. It was a trap. The models were not, they were not good enough in the beginning. Like the voice models were not good enough when we were working on that. It's tough as designers who are a little bit more forward-looking. You feel this pressure to like time where things are going and it's basically impossible. And anybody that says they can, I think mostly just got lucky because

你不知道。你不想为一个正在消失的世界做产品。但那种情况下，我们也建得太超前了。就像我们只是太早了。是的，

you don't know. You don't want to build for a world that's going away. But then also in that situation, we built too far into the future. Like we were just early. Yeah,

我觉得这是整个旅程中最具挑战性的部分，就是试图弄清楚采用所有这些新工作流的曲线是什么，以及我们想在哪里插入自己？我们有一点像是，这对很多公司来说会是优势，对我们来说可能是劣势，因为我们有这么多人愿意测试我们的产品并给我们反馈，因为你，对吧？就像报名参加通话

I think that's been like the most challenging part of this entire journey is trying to figure out like what the curve is for adopting all these new workflows and where do we want to insert ourself? We had a bit of like this would be an advantage for a lot of companies, potentially a disadvantage for us where we had so many people willing to test our product and give us feedback on it because of you, right? like just sign up for a call

而且反馈都很完美，你知道，他们会做净推荐值之类的，但有很多次我们观察某人的流程。如果说我学到了一件事，那就是我们接手的每家公司都有不同的流程。每个设计师基本上都有不同的方式想要使用这些工具，没有单一的解决方案，所以我们会追逐这种功能对等，比如这个设计师想要什么，那个设计师想要什么，我们让大公司，比如十亿美元级别的公司签约了，我们就想好吧，我们得为他们构建功能，然后发现那个功能对另一家公司不相关。所以有很多剥离和决定也许我们不需要对每家公司都完美。我觉得到目前为止这是我最大的弱点，作为设计师，就是我得让这对每个人都完美，对吧？就像我的工作是确保每个人都喜欢这个。我觉得我们本可以做得更好，找出少数真正的北极星，比如这些真的有效，让我们加倍投入这一件事，而不是继续追逐所有这些酷炫闪亮的东西，它们可能是好想法，但用五个人的团队很难执行。

and they're all perfect feedback, you know, they'll make nets and stuff, but like there's so many times where we're watching someone's flow. Like if there's one thing I've learned, it's like every single company we've onboarded has a different flow. Every designer basically has a different way that they want to use these tools and like there's not one solution and so we would chase kind of this feature parity of like what did this designer want, what did this designer want and like we got like big companies like billion dollar companies signed up and we're like okay well we got to build features for them and then turns out that feature was not relevant to another company. So there's a lot of like stripping things back and deciding maybe we didn't need to be like perfect for every single company. And I think by far that's my biggest weakness is as a designer it's like I got to make this perfect for everyone, right? Like that's my job is to make sure that like everyone loves this. And I think we could have done a much better job at like figuring out the few like real northstar like these are really hitting like let's double down on this one thing versus like let's keep chasing like all these cool shiny things that are probably good ideas but hard to execute with a team of like five people.

完全同意。

Totally.

嗯，我觉得很大一部分也是，我一开始会假设说，嘿我们的理想客户画像（ICP）是设计师，这够窄了。很好，你知道，

Well, I think a lot of it too is I would have assumed that in the beginning of doing this by saying hey our ICP is designers that's narrow enough. Great. you know,

结果发现这远远不够窄。差得远。我们甚至无法自己符合我们的 ICP。

turns out it's not even close to narrow enough. Like not even close. And we couldn't even make our ICP ourselves.

是的，

Yeah,

因为你在转变工作流。就像我觉得每个人都在经历这个弧线：好吧，我们在用 Figma，也许你在用 Lovable 和 Vero。我们花了很长时间支持那些类型的链接，然后像，好吧，现在也许我们在

because you're like transitioning workflows. Like everybody I feel like is going on this arc of okay, we're working in Figma, maybe you're working in Lovable and Vero. We spent a long time supporting those types of links to like, okay, now maybe we're

在这些沙盒里工作。也许现在我们在生产环境上工作。我们试图构建这个产品，基本上帮助我们的，你知道，所谓的 ICP 在整个光谱上成长，结果实际上有点灾难，因为有一天我们醒来，我们试图做一个产品，老兄我记得有一刻我们只在预览部署链接上使用 inflight，就我们两个人

working in these like sandboxes. Maybe now we're working on top of production. and we tried to build this product that basically helped our, you know, quote unquote ICP grow across that full spectrum which ended up kind of being a disaster actually because we woke up one day where we're like trying to make a product where dude I remember a point where we are only using inflight between the two of us on preview deployment links

然后我们引入这家企业公司，每个听这个的人都听说过，他们的一个设计师说，伙计们，Figma 插件坏了

and then we're bringing on this enterprise company that everybody listening to this has heard of and one of their designers is like guys the Figma plugin's broken

我们就想，

and we're like,

我记得那个。

I remember that.

该死，我们甚至三周都没用过 Figma 插件了，可能更久。你知道，我觉得这很难，尤其是当 AI 确实加速了一些开发。很容易诱惑自己做得太多、太宽，试图成为这种一体化的解决方案。我觉得这给我们自己创造了很多失败点。当我回头看，我就想，这肯定是一个教训：你必须变得超级窄。但另一方面，如果你太窄，今天一切都可以用 vibe 编码。这就像另一个，你必须在那个光谱上找到完美的点，这真的很难。

Damn, we haven't even used the Figma plugin in like three weeks, probably even more than that. You know, I think it's hard, especially when AI does accelerate some of the development. It's easy to tempt yourself into doing too much and going too wide and trying to be this like all-in-one solution. And I think that created a lot of failure points for ourselves. When I look back, I'm like, that's for sure one of the lessons is you got to get hyper narrow. But then like I guess the flip side is like if you get too narrow everything's vibe codable today. It's like another one of like you have to get like the perfect point on that spectrum which is really difficult.

你还要平衡，作为设计师，传统上你在一家已经有稳定业务和前进道路的公司，显然不总是这样，但对我们来说，我们经常必须做决定，比如这是不是一个好的商业决策？这能让公司活下去吗？你可以走这条非常窄的路，TAM 很小，做出一些不可思议的东西，一些人喜欢它，但如果没有能力增长或与企业签约之类的，你就得做一点数学，那是我以前从来不需要做的。比如你根据，酷，这是我被要求构建的新产品来做收入决策，但你不必整体思考，如果我们走这条路，这会杀死公司吗？或者这会增长很慢？可能不会杀死公司，但你只是在用虚假信号工作。

You're also balancing like as a designer traditionally you're at a company that already has like a stable business and like a a path forward and obviously not all the time but for us we have to make the decision a lot like is this a good business decision? Will this keep the company alive? like could you could go down this really narrow path with a really small TAM and and make something incredible and some people love it, but if there's no like ability to like grow or like sign contracts with enterprises or something, you have to like do a little bit of math where that's just not anything I had to do before. Like you you made revenue decisions off of like cool here's here's a new product I'm tasked at building, but you don't have to think like holistically of is this going to kill the company if we go down this path or is this going to be really slow growth? Like it might not kill the company, but you're just like it's it's working with false signals.

然后当你引入融资时，就出现了另一套完全不同的考量：好吧，我们现在期待不同的结果了。我们现在得做得更大一些。我们不能只为我们的小圈子做东西。这增加了我从未准备好的变量。我觉得这在心理上确实给了我很大挑战。我想我正在变得更好，但一开始这对我打击很大。

And then when you bring funding on, then there's a whole other equation of like, okay, we're expecting a different outcome now. We've got to go a little bit bigger now. We can't just build something for our small pocket. That adds variables I was never ready for. I think mentally it's definitely challenged me a lot. I think I'm getting better at it, but that hit me hard initially.

我笑是因为我记得有一天，有一个非常真实的公司在用这个产品，他们说：“嘿，我们能要 Figma 风格的评论吗？”然后你又和像 Cleo 这样的人聊，你说，你知道吗？如果你能建立一个上下文库，让你基本上克隆 CEO，并给任何设计师按需提供设计反馈，那是个机器人。你现在只是以行业加速的速度在做从 0 到 1 的事情，就像你被转得团团转。

I'm laughing because I remember there was this day where you had a very real company using the product being like, 'Hey, can we have Figma style comments?' And then you would talk to somebody like Cleo and you're like, you know what? If you could build up a context library that would allow you to basically clone the CEO and give on-demand design feedback to any designer, that's a bot. You're just doing the zero to one thing at the rate of acceleration of the industry right now is like you just get spun in circles so much.

有些人非常擅长这个，对吧？我不会说我是。我太专注于解决眼前的问题了。然后很难让所有这些人告诉你他们认为行业会朝哪个方向发展。你试图坚持自己的观点，因为品味很大程度上就是如此，对吧？就是你自己对事物应该看起来、感觉起来或行为如何的观点。如果这每天都在变，你试图接受所有这些新工具、所有关于人们如何工作的新信息。就像，天哪，你得找到某种方式让自己脚踏实地。

Certain people are very good at that, right? I wouldn't say I am. I get too focused on solving a problem, like the one in front of me. And then it's really hard to get all these people telling you which way they think the industry is going. You're trying to hold your own point of view, because that's what taste is largely, right? It's just your own point of view on how things should look or feel or behave. And if that's changing every single day, you're trying to take on all these new tools, all this new information about how people work. It's like, geez, you've got to find some way to ground yourself.

所以，我的意思是，你找到了吗？我觉得你比我更脚踏实地。

So, I mean, did you find any? You stayed more grounded than me, I think.

我不知道我是否找到了，因为我长期在线，总是和人交谈、采访别人。我觉得你实际上触及了整个旅程中最困难的部分之一。就像你觉得自己脚踏实地，但那天你上 Twitter，看到三个接连发布的东西完全改变你对未来面貌的世界观，而且每两天就会发生一次。

I don't know if I did, because I'm chronically online and I'm always talking to people and interviewing people. I think you hit on actually one of the hardest parts of the whole journey. It's like you feel like you're grounded, but then you get on Twitter that day and it's like three launches back to back to back completely change your worldview about what the future looks like, and that would happen every two days.

是的。再加上每个人都说软件已死、软件不可投资。那个叙事从六个月前就开始了。为什么只做软件？SaaS 已死，人们可以直接用代码搞定一切。现在做软件创业公司时机确实很难。但也是最有意思的，因为一切皆有可能，你会想，我现在能构建什么，而六个月前这会是——我的意思是，甚至六个月前，GPT-3 还不够好？你还得考虑，我们应该花时间在这个会很糟糕的动画上，还是只构建用户体验？这些都是你必须做的权衡。我现在感觉比以往任何时候都更有力量。显然，我们可能几个月后要推出一个新功能，而一年前做这个会是我们最糟糕的决定，现在我们觉得，嗯，差不多完成了，它可能了，刚刚变得可能了。

Yeah. Mirrored with everyone saying software's dead, software is uninvestable. That narrative started six months ago. Why would you build software only? SaaS is dead, people can just fob code everything. It's really tough timing to do a software startup for sure. But also the most fun because everything's possible and you're like, what could I build now that six months ago would have been—I mean literally even six months ago, GPT-3 wasn't good enough? You still had to figure out, should we spend time on this animation that's going to be really bad or just build UX? It's all these trade-offs you have to make. I feel more empowered now than ever by far. Obviously, we probably have a new feature coming out in a couple months that would have been the worst decision ever for us to do a year ago, and now we're like, well, it's kind of done, it's possible, just became possible.

我觉得现在在创业公司做设计，需要你在精神上稍微活在未来一点，但我也确实认为有那个脚踏实地的部分，这很难。

I feel like designing at a startup right now requires you to just kind of live in the future a little bit mentally, but then I do think there is that grounded piece which is hard.

但这也像是融资的关键。也许你可以稍微谈谈那段旅程，因为我觉得那是——我不知道，我的假设是很多人在听这个节目时有很多想法，但可能不知道真正去追求一个想法是什么样子。但那就是我们必须摸索的路径，你必须讲述一个关于未来的故事，才能让人们投资你、相信你。

But it's also like that's the key to fundraising too. Maybe you can even talk about that journey a little bit because I think that's something that—I don't know, my assumption is a lot of people have ideas listening to this but maybe don't know what it looks like to actually go for an idea. But that was the path that we had to navigate where you've got to tell a story about the future in order to get people to invest in you and believe in you.

我第一个想法是回想我们在 SBC 做的路演，你当时讲得棒极了，那个叙事。我的意思是，每个投资者都不同，对吧？我觉得那些想配置资本的人，本质上是在试图让你呼应他们自己的某个信念，就像他们如何看待世界。每个风投都不同。所以很多人必须见 40 个风投才能拿到一张支票，找到那个相信你正在传达的世界观的人。我们显然很幸运，因为我们没有经历那种整个考验，基本上就是向每个风投推销并试图让他们相信。但如果你在做更大的事情，我觉得让风投说“是的，我能看到世界朝这个方向发展”会容易一点。如果你在做非常具体的东西，比如一个用于导出设计的 Figma 插件，那就很难让风投说“是的，那是我非常了解的东西”，对吧？因为大多数——也许 Cleo 是个很好的例子，有人能理解那个，但很多风投不能。所以你必须把网撒得更宽，说“是的，这是机会。这是我们为什么有独特资格去做。我们可能三个月内达不到，但我们正朝那个方向前进。”而且我强烈感觉，基于我作为设计师的独特经历，这就是世界未来的样子，对吧？你必须依靠对你来说独特的东西，而不是其他 100 个向他们推销类似想法或更无聊想法的人。我觉得幸运的是，我们的团队构成，我们这里有很多相当独特的视角。至于长期来看，在一切都是 ML 实验室的现在，这是否成立，我不知道，也许它不再是最有吸引力的了，但我认为设计师在风投桌上仍然有一席之地。我认为能够创造有吸引力的产品是很多公司都在寻找的。这当然仍然是这些企业公司支出饼图的一大部分，他们仍然在产品上投入很多。所以那里肯定有机会，但只是弄清楚如何沟通这一点很难。

My first thought was thinking back of the pitch we did at SBC where you just killed it, the narrative. I mean, it's different for every investor, right? I think people looking to deploy capital are trying to get you to echo one of their own convictions essentially, like how they see the world. And that's different for every VC. So there's a lot of people that have to meet with 40 VCs before they get a check and they find the one that believes in that worldview that you're kind of communicating. We got lucky obviously because we didn't go through that whole gauntlet essentially of pitching to every single VC and trying to get them to believe. But if you're working on something bigger, I think it's a little bit easier to get a VC to be like, 'Yeah, I could see the world going this way.' If you're working on something really specific, a Figma plugin for exporting designs, it's going to be really hard to get a VC to be like, 'Yeah, that's something I know really well,' right? Because most of—maybe Cleo is a great example, someone who could understand that, but a lot of VCs aren't. So you have to go cast the net wider and be like, 'Yeah, here's the opportunity. Here's why we're uniquely qualified to do it. We might not get there in three months, but we're heading in that direction.' And I feel really strongly that this is the way the world's going to be based off of my unique experiences as a designer, right? You have to pull on something that is unique to you versus the other 100 people that are pitching them similar ideas or more boring ideas. And I think luckily our team composition, we have a lot of pretty unique perspectives here. And whether or not that holds in the long term of everything being an ML lab at this point, I don't know, maybe it's not the most attractive anymore, but I think designers still hold a seat at the VC table. I think being able to create a compelling product is something that a lot of companies are looking for. It's certainly still a big chunk of the spend pie of these enterprise companies, they're still investing in product quite a lot. So there's definitely opportunities there, but just figuring out how to communicate that is hard.

我们已经谈了很多关于试图弄清楚这一切的旋风。我的意思是，我们可能已经构建了 10 个不同的产品了。

We've talked a lot about the whirlwind of trying to figure it out. I mean, we probably built 10 different products at this point.

至少，可能更多。是的，你说得对。这有点疯狂。我确实认为这是必要的，为了有点像——像什么改变了，你知道，就像我觉得我对世界有一定程度的确定性和信念和理解。

At least, and probably more. Yeah, you're right. Which is a little bit insane. I do think it was necessary in order to kind of like—like what changed, you know, like what I feel like I have a level of certainty and conviction and understanding about the world.

我很好奇，我们究竟如何驾驭这个？就像在你看来，我也有一些想法。我有点好奇我们是如何走到今天的？让我们从你的开始，因为我觉得你在这里的视角更有价值。

And I'm curious, how do we even navigate that? Like in your mind, like I have some thoughts, too. I'm kind of curious like how did we get to where we are today? Let's start with yours because I feel like your perspective here is more valuable.

我认为我们痴迷地缩小了范围。这又回到了所有那些诱惑，就是用 AI 做一堆疯狂的事情。

I think we've obsessively narrowed it. Ties back to all of the temptation to just do a bunch of crazy stuff with AI.

至少对我来说，工作方式的这种固化真的赋予了我力量。你知道，我现在实际上不再用 Figma 了，我只做代码原型。然后你明白，哇，仅仅从这一种特定的工作方式中就会涌现出一堆问题。我们最近做了一个决定，基本上就是删除所有其他工作方式。就像如果你只用 Lovable，抱歉。如果你只用 Figma，抱歉。这方面已经清晰了很多。

Having almost this solidifying of the way that we work has really empowered me at least. You know, it's like I actually am not in Figma anymore and I'm only doing code prototypes. And then you understand, wow, there are a bunch of problems that arise just from this one specific way of working. And we made this decision recently to basically just delete every other way of working. Like if you're only working in lovable, sorry. If you're only working in Figma, sorry. There's been a lot of clarity around that.

我也确实认为我们——我不知道，这很奇怪。你几乎得玩一点等待游戏，因为就在三四个月前，我们还在和那些没有多数工作用代码的团队交流。所以这几乎就像——这是个时机问题。我记得马克·安德森有一篇文章我总是在想，他谈到了团队、市场规模、产品和时机，以及哪些变量最重要。那篇文章的整个论点就是，对于初创公司来说，时机实际上比任何其他东西都重要。不幸的是，我想我们可能刚刚成了证明这一点的巨大案例研究，因为我们需要那种工作方式。我们需要设计师的本质定义跨越鸿沟进入这个后 AI 世界。而通过只关注那个世界，而不是旧世界、桥梁和新世界，我认为它释放了一种我们根本无法达到的简洁性。我从未完全自信我们拥有那种简洁性。所以也许这就是为什么我们总是有点犹豫。但对我来说最难的事情就是沟通公司的价值。我想直到最近才真正找到一个好的定位。

And I do also think that we—I don't know, it's weird. You almost had to play the waiting game a little bit because literally just 3-4 months ago, we're still talking to teams that are not majority working in code. And so you're almost like—it's like a timing thing. Like I remember there's this Mark Andre article that I always think about where he talked about like team market size, product and timing and like what variables matter the most. And the entire argument of the article was that actually timing matters more than literally every other thing when it comes to startups. And unfortunately I think we might have just been a giant case study in the correctness of that because we needed the way of working. We needed the very nature of what it means to be a designer to kind of cross this chasm into this post-AI world. And by focusing only on that world rather than old world, the bridge and the new world, I think it's unlocked a level of simplicity that we simply were not able to achieve. And I never felt like fully confident that we had that. And so maybe that's, you know, why we always held off a little bit. But that's been the hardest thing for me is just communicating the value, you know, of like the company. I guess never really landed on a good spot for that until recently.

是的。整个事情就是这种永无止境的故事讲述练习。就像当你既是设计师又是创始人时，你会意识到实际上一切只是故事讲述，而用户体验服务于故事讲述，而不是表演。

Yeah. The whole thing is just this never-ending storytelling exercise. Like when you're both a designer and founder, you realize that actually everything is just storytelling and the UX is serving the story storytelling and not the show.

是的。而要擅长这一点，你必须说服自己某件事是真的，对吧？我认为作为设计师，很多时候我们被要求思想开放，认为两件事都可以是真的，然后坚定立场说：“这是正确的。”天啊，作为设计师，这有多难啊。

Yeah. And to be good at that, you have to convince yourself something's true, right? And I think as designers, like a lot of time, we're meant to be open-minded and be like two things can be true and like put your foot down and be like, "This is correct." Man, what a hard thing to do as a as a designer.

有一个问题我无法停止问自己：如果公司申请和你交谈，而不是你去找他们，会怎样？这个问题是全新 Dive Talent Network 的基础。而且它正在起作用。就像现在，我正在帮助我认识的许多最令人兴奋的初创公司，聘请收听这个节目的设计师和构建者。所以，如果你好奇外面可能有什么，或者你想加入我的名单，又或者你甚至正在寻找你的下一位设计雇员，请访问 dive.club/talent 今天就加入。

There's one question that I can't stop asking myself. What if companies applied to talk to you rather than the other way around? And that question is the foundation for the all-new Dive Talent Network. And it's working. Like right now, I'm helping many of the most exciting startups that I know to hire the designers and builders who listen to this show. So, if you're curious what might be out there and maybe you want to get on my list, or maybe you're even looking for your next design hire, head to dive.club/talent to join today.

我想人们从这次对话中最后应该带走的是，我们并不只是一直在代码中彩虹笑脸大笑，因为那真的非常艰难。

I think the last thing that I want people to take away from this conversation is that we have just been all rainbows and smiles and laughing while we're just around in code because it's been really freaking hard.

是的。我们测试了成千上万的用户。

Yeah. It's been a lot of thousands of users we've tested have come on.

是的。是的。反复让一批批用户着火，质疑一切。我想就像当你回顾过山车时，我们一直互相发送这个过山车表情符号。就像我们在过山车上的哪里？你从来不在中间。你总是非常高或非常低。带人们到你的低谷。我想知道是否和我的低谷一样。那一刻发生了什么？作为设计师创业的不光彩的一面实际上是什么样的？

Yeah. Yeah. repeatedly lighting cohorts of users on fire and questioning everything. I guess I'm like when you kind of look back at the roller coaster, which we've just sent this roller coaster emoji back and forth to each other forever. It's like where are we at on the roller coaster? You're never in the middle. You're always like the very high or the very low. Take people to your low point. I wonder if it's the same as my low point. Like what was happening in that moment? What is it actually like the not glamorous side of starting a startup as a designer?

对我来说，这实际上与产品无关，总是与人有关。当你创办某件事时，你必须接受责任，也许不是直接的，因为每个人都有自己的选择等等，但你让一群人押注于某件事，而这件事给他们的报酬远低于大公司，并花费他们大量时间。如果结果不积极，你可能会责怪自己浪费了大家的时间。我知道人们对此有不同看法，因为如果成功，会有超额回报。但一般来说，如果你觉得某件事不奏效，你可能有责任关闭它，让人们转向有效的事情。你也不想太早这样做。就像钻石表情包，对吧？如果你离可能奏效的事情如此之近，你不想太早放弃。所以有很多次我问自己，天啊，我们有很棒的队友，他们现在可能在 Frontier Labs 工作或做更大的事情。我确信人们会在这里赚钱，他们的时间值得吗？当我感觉不是这样时，那很容易是我的损失，几乎与产品无关。只是市场是否转变了，时机如何——我们正在做更与代码相关的事情，然后 Cursor 在我们发布前推出了基本上完全相同的东西。我想，好吧，现在我们怎么办？天啊，我们花了所有时间，现在却不知所措。是的，我们一直有北极星指标和反馈等，但天啊，有些时候我就是觉得这行不通。我得想办法让飞机着陆。我们最终会怎样？我想这种情况可能还会继续发生，对吧？过山车会变低，比如发布后没有被以特定方式使用，不管是什么。但这一直是让我夜不能寐的事情。天啊，不得不让人离开，这太残酷了。你不想搞乱别人的生活，他们的薪水，他们的孩子，这不是一个有趣的位置。你的可能更与产品相关，但我的意思是，你有孩子，还有一个即将出生，这比产品看起来好不好更重要。

I think for me it's actually been unrelated to the product and always to like the people and when you're when you're like founding something you have to accept the responsibility that you know maybe maybe not directly cuz everyone has their own choice and stuff but like you are getting a bunch of people to bet on something that is paying them a lot less than like a bigger company spending a lot of their time and if the outcome isn't positive there then you kind of can blame yourself for like wasting everyone's time and you know I know People have different opinions on that cuz there's, you know, outsized rewards if it does work out. But like generally, if you feel like something's not working, it's probably your responsibility to like shut it down and and let people move to something that is working. And you also don't want to do that too early. Like the diamond meme, right? Like if you're so close to something that could work, like you don't want to give up too early. So there's been a lot of times where I'm like just asking myself like, man, like we have incredible teammates like that could be working at Frontier Labs right now or on on way bigger things. like am I confident that like people are going to make money here that their time is worth it? And when when I feel like that's not the case like it's easily my loss and it's unrelated almost to the product. It's just like did the market switch like I what was the time like we're working on something more heavily code related right and then cursor comes out with like basically the exact same thing like right before we launched. I'm like okay like what do we do now? Like man, we just spent all this time and now like we're we're just like clueless and yeah, we've had a north star the whole time with like feedback and stuff, but jeez, like there's been some times where I'm just like this isn't going to work. Like I got to figure out how to land the plane. Where do we net out here and like I I think that'll probably continue to happen, right? Like the the roller coaster will get low, like you know, launch and this not being used in a specific way, like whatever it is. But like that's always the the thing that kind of keeps me up at night. It's like jeez, you know, and having to let people go like that. It's just brutal. like that's, you know, you don't want to be like messing with someone's life, their check, you know, with their kids and like that's it's not a fun spot to be. And yours might be a little bit more related to the product, but you I mean, you have a kid, you have another kid on the way, like it's it's bigger than just like does this product look good? Like

是的，这比那更重要。我的意思是，机会成本巨大，无论是经济上还是时间上，对我来说还有家庭方面。老兄，做这件事的真正代价是，大多数日子我在家人睡觉后和醒来前工作。当我记得有那么一刻，感觉没有更多软件公司可建时，这真的很难证明其合理性。

Yeah, it's bigger than that. I mean, it's the opportunity cost is so massive both financially, but also like time and for me like you know, family stuff. Dude, the real cost of doing this is like I work after my family goes to sleep and before they wake up most days. That gets really hard to justify when I remember there was this moment where it just felt like there wasn't any more software companies to build.

就像我看着这个行业格局，每个人都在做同样的东西，那些表面区域都在快速扩张并相互重叠，感觉没有任何空白。而且我觉得很容易陷入这种悲观心态，就像“不，只会有四个产品，哦对了，你多年来获得的所有界面设计技能都不重要了，因为一切都会通过 MCP 来完成。”你会说：“该死，老兄。”而且我也不想要一份工作。我觉得这也是困难的部分，我环顾四周，所有和我们同时期开始创业的人，他们只是得到了一个光鲜的收购公告，但你知道，他们只是拿到了一笔不错的签约奖金和一份新工作。那不是我做这件事的原因。我不是为了那点小钱。我想做出一个我们真正引以为傲的东西。但几乎不可能看到如何做出一个持久的东西，因为它要么被更大的公司吞并，你要去那里工作，要么立即被复制。太糟糕了。

Like I just like looking at the landscape and everybody's building the same thing and those surface areas are all scaling rapidly and overlapping each other where it just doesn't feel like there was any gaps. And I think it's really easy to slip into these pessimistic mindsets where it's like, "Nah, there's only going to be like four products and oh yeah, all the interface design skills that you've acquired over the years like don't really matter because everything's just going to be through an MCP." You're like, "Damn, dude." Like, and also I don't want a job. And I think that was the hard part, too, where I'm like looking around. And like all of the people that started startups along the same time horizons as us, like they're just getting this shiny acquisition announcement, but you know, it's just like they're just got a nice sign bonus and got a new job. And that's not why I'm in it. I'm not in it for like a little cash grab. Like I wanted to make a thing that we're really proud of. And it became almost impossible for me to see how you could make a thing that would last because it's either going to be swallowed up by a bigger company and you're going to work there or it's going to get copied immediately. Terrible.

老兄，有很多不眠之夜与此相关，我们当时在做另一个 tangential 的尝试，比如我们在做这个 Mac 应用，我们构建了非常酷的东西，整个我们痴迷的想法。嗯，实际上你开始构建你自己的 IDE，设计师的 IDE 应该是什么样子？然后就在我们开始做那个的时候，Figma 发布了他们的 local make，我到现在都不知道那个是否上线了。那可能那可能没什么可得到的。

Man, there was a lot of there's a lot of like sleepless nights associated with that and we were working on another kind of tangential bet like we're working on this Mac app and we built really cool things like the whole idea that we were obsessed with. Well, actually you started building your own IDE like what does an IDE for designers look like? And then right when we started working on that, Figma released like their local make, which I still don't even know if that's live. That might be that might be nothing that one to get.

我记得看着那个，心想，哦老兄，好吧，那行不通。然后就像，好吧，我们要构建这个 Mac 应用。如果就像你可以像点击 Figma 文件一样点击某人的原型，它就会在这个 Mac 应用中本地打开。那很酷。在某些方面很酷，但后来我们在大约一个半月内构建了这个非常非常健壮的产品。我记得准备发布它时，看着它，心想我不想做这个。

I remember like looking at that being like, oh man, like okay, that's not going to work. And then it's like, okay, we're going to build this Mac app. Like what if it was like you could you could click into somebody's prototype the same way you click into a Figma file and it would just open locally in this Mac app. And it was cool. It was cool in some ways, but then we built this really really robust product in about a month and a half. And I remember getting ready to launch it and looking at it and being like I don't want to work on this.

是的。就像我不为此感到骄傲。我不喜欢，这不是我想把自己的名字放在后面的东西。然后你就会有所有这些疑问，比如我为什么要做这个，如果我不想做它，也不想把自己的名字放在后面。老兄，那些时刻有很多不安的祈祷，你只是在质疑自己如何花费时间的 literally 一切，甚至我是否自私，做这个而不是仅仅做一个家庭男人，而我完全可以是，我不必把自己打得粉碎去做科技界最难的游戏之一。你知道，我们在做什么？所有这些问题都在你脑子里。

Yeah. Like I'm not proud of this. I don't like it's not something I want to put my name behind. And then you kind of have all those questions of like why am I doing this if I want if I don't want to work on it and I don't want to put my name behind it. Like, man, those are a lot of restless prayer happening in those moments where you're just questioning literally everything about how you're spending your time and am I being selfish for even working on this and not just like, being a family man when I totally could be like I don't have to beat myself to a pulp doing like one of the hardest games in all of tech. You know, what are we doing? All those questions are in your brain.

我的意思是，你能多谈谈那个吗？因为我觉得 Ridd 这个人作为设计师同样迷人，但我记得我们最初见面时，大概是 12 年前，当时你是我在科技界遇到的唯一一个基督徒。你是第一个说“不，这就是我”的人。就像，你知道，我不为此感到羞耻。我想我们一直保持联系很大程度上是因为那个。所以现在

I mean, could you could you talk a little bit more about that because I think the uh the person of Ridd is equally as fascinating as the designer, but I I remember when we initially met, this was maybe 12 years ago, and at the time you were you were the only Christian that I'd ever met in tech. You were the first person that was like, "No, like that's who I am." Like, you know, I'm not ashamed of that. And I think we always kind of kept in touch because of that largely. So now

这就是为什么我们，这就是为什么我们一直是朋友

that's why we that's why we stayed friends

当然。所以你知道我们经常一起做很多事，但我好奇那对你意味着什么，比如你如何在过去，我的意思是 15 年里在超级前沿的 AI 科技世界中保持这一点，同时仍然，你知道，拥有家庭，并且像，这很有趣，这在这个播客几百集后转向了一个不熟悉的方向，但为什么不呢？我想如果人们意识到我仅仅根据我感觉上帝引导我的方向来做重大决定，他们可能会几乎感到不舒服。

for for sure. and and so you know we we do a lot together but I'm curious of like what that means to you like how you've kind of kept that throughout the last whatever I mean 15 years of being in super forward AI tech world and still you know like having a family and being like it it's very interesting this this is taking an unfamiliar turn on this podcast hundreds of episodes in but why not I think people would probably almost get uncomfortable if they realize the degree to which I make really big decisions solely off of like what I feel like God is leading me in.

就像 F Academy 就是这样，你知道，100% 就是这样，我有两个非常好的选择，老兄。我快速讲个故事，我不相信 prosperity gospel 之类的，但这实际上，如果你听到这里，也许我们有某种亲和力，因为你可能以前听过这个节目，我有一个非常具体的时刻，很搞笑，它始于那个 naval 陈词滥调的推文，我猜你当时可能和他一起工作，这真的很有趣，但我想为自己做点什么。我不想再出卖我的时间换钱了。我想教书。我热爱教育。我热爱教学。我热爱教学。我感觉上帝就像，“做这个，就像，让我们去吧。”我买了 figmaacademy.com。甚至不知道它会是什么。我有这样的记录，每当我感觉听到上帝的声音然后做出决定，我立即就会得到一个非常光鲜的机会。就像我连续有五个这样的。我记得我在写日记，真的绞尽脑汁，因为当时我赚的钱不多。我有两个我收到过的最大的自由职业合同，大得多，在我书面决定说“我要每天醒来，我要做 Figma Academy，即使我不知道它是什么或它看起来像什么”的第二天出现。我记得写日记，我有这个习惯，如果我感觉清楚地听到上帝的声音，我用黄色写下来。我用黄色写了。而且

Like F Academy was that, you know, like 100% was that and I had two very good options, man. And I'll tell a quick story really and I don't believe in like prosperity gospel or anything but like this actually if you're listening this far like maybe we have some level of affinity because you probably listen to this show before and I had a very specific moment where I hilariously it started from that naval cliche nal tweet who I guess you were probably working with at the time which is really funny but I wanted to do something for myself. I didn't want to sell my time for money anymore. I wanted to teach. I loved education. I love teaching. I love teaching. I felt like God was like, "Do do this, like do like like let's go for it." I bought figmaacademy.com. Didn't even know what it was going to be. And I have this track record where whenever I feel like I hear from God and then make a decision, I immediately get offered like a really shiny opportunity immediately. Like I have like five of these in a row. And I remember I'm I'm journaling and really just racking my brain because at the time I was not making good money. And I had the two biggest freelance contracts that I'd ever been offered, like way bigger, pop up the day after I had in writing made the decision to say, "I'm going to wake up every single day and I'm going to work on Figma Academy even though I don't even though I don't know what it is or what that looks like." And I remember journaling and I I have this thing that I do or if I feel like I clearly hear the voice of God, I write it in yellow. And I wrote it in yellow. And

哇，

wow,

我不记得这个了，但我写了，基本上它就是说对那两个机会说不，另一条路实际上在经济上会更好。再说一次，这不是关于钱，但那实际上就是上帝在那一刻对我说话的方式。总之，我完全忘了这个，当然，对吧？我最终做了 Figma Academy 的事情。它绝对爆炸了。改变了我的生活，改变了我家庭的生活，我最终用那笔钱买了我梦想的房子。我永远也买不起那房子。现在很多人，这就是我拍摄 intro 的房子。我爱我的房子，老兄。我觉得它是为我量身定做的。总之，我们花了将近一年重新装修，改变一切。我们搬进去。还是有点乱，但我的办公室是我第一个 100% 完成的东西，因为我想，我得在这个东西里工作。

I didn't remember this, but I wrote it and it was basically it just said like say no to those two opportunities and this other path will like actually financially be better. And again, like it's not about money, but like that actually was how God spoke to me in that moment. Anyway, I completely forget about this, of course, right? I ended up doing the Figma Academy thing. It absolutely exploded. Changed my life, changed my family's life, and I ended up buying my dream house with that money. And I would never been able to afford that house. And this is, you know, a lot of people now, like this is the house that I film the intros in. Like I love my house, dude. It's like I feel like it's tailor made for me. Anyway, we spend almost a year redoing it, changing everything. We move in. It's still kind of a mess, but my office was the first thing that I got to 100% cuz I was like, I got to work out of this thing.

我重新装修了我的办公室，我走进去，我对在这个办公室的第一天感到非常兴奋。我决定写日记。但我想找到我写过的其他东西。

And I redo my office and I walk in and I'm so excited for my first ever day in this office. And I decided to journal about it. But I wanted to find something else that I had written.

我甚至不记得当时在找什么。偶然间，一条记录吸引了我的注意。我点开它，读了起来，完全忘了我大约两年前写了什么。然后我看到那行黄色的字。巧合的是，我是在新办公室的第一天头五分钟读到它的，而那间办公室所在的房子，正是用那个决定带来的钱买的。我当场趴倒在地，哭了起来。

And I don't even remember what I was looking for. And I randomly had this entry catch my eye. I click on it and I read it and I'm completely forgetting what I wrote like 2 years ago. And then I see that line in yellow. I read it coincidentally in the first 5 minutes of the first day in my office in the house that was bought from that moment where I made that decision and I just fell on my face and started crying.

那种投入程度。我有上百个类似的故事，那种投入程度对我来说，创造东西——不只是做产品，而是做企业、想法、文章，就像在互联网上创造——给我带来了如此多的生命力，而且它与我和上帝的关系完美地交织在一起。这也是为什么我开始和你合作，因为我觉得，这就是原因。

That level of involvement. I have a hundred stories like that, that level of involvement for me where the idea of making things—not even just making products but like making businesses, ideas, articles, like just making on the internet—brings me so much life and it's so perfectly intertwined with my relationship with God too. And that was why I started joining with you because I was like, this is why.

有多久了？你的个人简介一直写着“为我的创造者而创造”，你知道，一直如此吗？

For how long? Like your bio has been like 'creating for my creator' you know like the whole time?

是的，一直如此。我当时想，哦，每一个——你可以有点——哦，当你真正仔细看的时候，它就像 RI 有基督的元素。就像，你知道，你对待周围的人就像你希望被对待那样，就像耶稣会对待的那样。还有这种对自己技能的欣赏，以及对世界之美的欣赏。我认为就像知道有一位创造者在那里，给了你这些才能去做事情。

Yeah, like the whole time. I was like, oh every—like you can kind of—Oh, when you really look at it like closely, it's like RI has elements of Christ. Like, you know, you treat everyone around you like you wanted to be treated like Jesus would have treated. There's also this level of like appreciation of your own skill and just the beauty of the world. I think like of knowing that there is a creator out there that has like given you these talents to be able to do things.

我基本上看着你接触的一切，都能感受到这一点，我不想显得奇怪，但就像，这很令人印象深刻。就像它让我有所感触，老兄。我觉得这家伙被某种超越他自身的东西所驱动。他的家人也是如此。就像

And I look at everything you touch basically and feel that which I'm not trying to be weird about it, but like it it's impressive. Like it it like makes me feel something, dude. I'm like this guy is is powered by something more than himself. and his family is as well. Like

看到这些很迷人，而且我不认为那是巧合，我想知道你是否感受到了

it's it's fascinating to see like and and I don't think that that's a coincidence and I wonder if you feel it

就像你早上醒来时是否感到被那种工具集赋予了力量，对吧，就像他给了你工具集，他为你配备了所需的工具

like if you wake up in the morning feeling like empowered by that like tool set right like gives you a tool set like he equips you with the tools you need

如果你指的是在我的播客上谈论这个时出现的身体不适感？也许吧。也许吧。但我认为这是我仍在做 Inflight 的唯一原因。我就这么说吧，因为我有

If by that you mean the level of physical discomfort that is coming up by actually talking about this on my podcast? Maybe. Maybe. But I think it's the only reason I'm still doing Inflight. I'll put it that way because I have

太棒了。

amazing.

甚至我们走到一起的方式，老兄，我们重新联系是因为你听了播客。我，你知道，你在听 Steph Golick 的那一集。我记得，因为那全是关于

Even the way that we came together, dude, we like reconnected because you listened to the podcast. I you know, you were listening to Steph Golick's episode. I remember cuz it was all about

这太疯狂了。我当时真的在散步。我想，“这是我听过的最好的设计播客。”而且是一个叫 Ridd 的人，而我只知道你是 Michael。我想，“Ridd 是谁？”我不得不查一下。我想，“Ridd 是谁？”我想，“老兄，这是 Michael，什么？”但它真的很好。我被质量震撼了。

This is crazy. I was literally on a walk. I'm like, "This is the best design podcast I've ever heard." And it was it was this guy named Ridd and I only knew you was Michael. I'm like, "Who is Ridd?" Like, I had to look it up. I was like, "Who is Ridd?" I'm like, "Dude, this is this is Michael like what?" It was so good though. I was like blown away by the quality.

大概第 10 集。当时并不好。我就这么说吧。我之所以能舒服地跳槽和你一起做这个，唯一的原因是，我一直以为我会做我自己的想法。就像我知道我会再次创业。我相信有些听众听过这个，但我二十出头的时候把所有东西都投入到一个看起来会很棒但最终失败的创业公司。这甚至不是肩上的 chip。就像我肩上有一整艘该死的船。就像你，我不知道那是什么。播客一直是我投资下一个创业公司的方式，不管它是什么。我只是不知道它是什么。就像，这是我往存钱罐里投硬币的方式，但我一直以为它会是我自己的想法。我有一堆想法，你知道，但我并不着急。我刚有了孩子。我知道我会去做，但我只是假设这会是我的事。而且，你知道，也许我会带一些人进来。令我惊讶的是，它实际上感觉像，哦，也许我实际上是在加入别人的事情。但因为是和你一起，而且因为我知道我甚至如何做决定和处理事情的思维模型对你来说不会陌生疯狂巫毒。我想，“好吧，这可能会成功。”正是从那个地方，你能够推动我度过一些非常低谷的时刻，老兄。就像真的真的，我到底在做什么？的低谷。

Episode like 10. It was not good at the time. The re I'll put it this way. The only reason why I felt comfortable jumping ship and doing this with you, cuz I always thought I was going to do my own idea. Like I knew I was going to start up again. I'm sure some people listening have heard this, but like my early 20s was spent putting every single thing into a startup that looked like it was going to be great and then ended up failing. It's not even a chip on your shoulder. Like I got a whole freaking boat on my shoulder. Like you I don't know what it is. The podcast was always my way of investing into the next startup, no matter what it was. I just didn't know what it was. Like, this was my way of like putting little coins in that piggy bank, but I always thought it was going to be my idea. And I have I had a bunch of ideas, you know, but I wasn't in I wasn't in a huge rush. I had just had a kid. I knew I was going to do it, but I just assumed this is going to be my thing. And, you know, maybe I'll bring on some people. It was surprising to me, I guess, that it actually felt like, oh, maybe I'm actually joining somebody else's thing. But because it was you and because I knew that my like mental models for how I even make decisions and process things was not going to be foreign crazy voodoo to you. I was like, "Okay, this is this is probably going to work." And it was from that place that you were able to kind of push through some really low points, dude. Like really really what the hell am I doing with my life? Points.

我们俩几乎完全信任对方，你知道，做出正确的决定。这被严重低估了，因为在我待过的大多数公司里，这绝对不是情况。你有点被训练成要照顾好自己，如果你不抢占你需要的东西，别人就会背后捅你一刀。但在你的生活中找到你真正信任的人，这是我职业生涯的亮点。

Both of us just trusting each other pretty much entirely to, you know, make right decisions. It's pretty underrated because it's definitely not been the case at, you know, most of the companies I've been at. You kind of get trained to like take care of yourself and someone else is going to backstab you if you don't like land grab whatever you need. But to find people in your life that you genuinely trust, it's been the the highlight of my career.

嗯，我认为这可能是创业公司最重要的部分，甚至对于在听的设计师来说，他们不是完全相同的情况，但他们仍在非常早期的阶段工作。就像，老兄，你只需要创始人信任你。就像不惜一切代价获得那种信任，因为在这个环境中它就是一切。甚至就像几周前，你知道，你跑出去，在一周内做了一个巨大的赌注，你在一周内能完成的事情是疯狂的。而我所拥有的信任水平，就像，“是的，去做吧。”哦，是的。而且真的很好。你随着时间的推移不断建立这种信任，这是关键。

Well, I think that's probably the most important part of startups like even for designers who are listening who are not in the exact same situation, but like they are still working really early stage. It's like, dude, you just need the founders to trust you. like do whatever it takes to get that level of trust because it's everything in this environment. Even just like a couple weeks ago, you know, you you run off and you just do this massive bet for one week and the amount that you can accomplish in one week is insane. And the level of trust that I have where it's like, "Yeah, go do that." Oh, yeah. And it's really good. And you keep building up that trust over time is is uh it's kind of the key to everything.

我是说，甚至只是信任和品格。就像如果你在另一端，你会想，我不太信任我的老板，但薪水不错，有时候你需要离开那些你从根本上不同意对方品格的事情。能够在决定去哪里工作时做到这一点，并理解一个人是什么样的人。对一些人来说是这样，但并不总是关于赚钱。你想享受生活。你想享受和你一起工作的人。我很幸运有很多不可思议的人。就像我仍然和所有最初的 Tinder 设计师和 PM 有一个群聊，他们仍然是我最好的朋友，就像参加过他们的婚礼，你知道，真的很幸运。然后还有一些其他人，我会说，是的，我们不在同一个波长上，但我真的很感激你和我肯定在。

I mean, even just trust and character, too. Like if you're on the other end of it and you're like, I don't really trust my boss, but like it's a good salary and like there's times where you need to walk away from things that you just fundamentally disagree with the person as their character essentially. And kind of being able to do that when deciding where you're going to work and and understand the type of person someone is. And for some people it is, but it's not always about just like making money. Like you want to enjoy life. You want to enjoy the people that you're working with. And I've been lucky to have a lot of like incredible people. Like I still have a group chat with all the uh original Tinder designers and PMs and they're some of my best friends still like been to their weddings like you know like it got really lucky with that. And then there's some other people that I was like yeah we don't we're not on the same wavelength but I I feel really thankful that you and I are for sure.

你让我意识到还有另一种非常重要的信任。第一在创业公司，第二在 AI 的变化速度中，不仅仅是信任某人能做出好的决定，而是信任他们愿意撤销那个决定并真正删除它。

You're making me realize there's a whole other type of trust that's super important. one in startups and two in the rate of change with AI is not just trusting that somebody's going to be able to make a good call, but trusting that they're going to have the willingness to undo that call and actually delete it.

整个旅程中一直在我脑海里回响的一句话是，我在节目开头采访 Cleo 时，他谈到在创业公司做设计就像堆沙堡。你必须接受东西会被冲走。这句话我在播客里说过很多次，因为它真的就在我脑子里回荡，因为我所做的一切就是做决定，然后爱上某个东西，然后看着它在水里一遍又一遍地崩塌。当你信任一个人既能构思又能执行时，这种信任会累积，尤其是当你还相信，面对新信息，他们会完全没问题地直接删掉它。我想这大概是我在这个过程中最大的成长方式，就是松开对那些我投入了很多心血和细节的东西的掌控，因为我其实没办法不这样做——在这个环境里这可能是我的缺点——但这真的很难，伙计。如果你没经历过那种情况，只做过范围明确、有持久预期的事情，那真的很难，构建你真正喜欢和使用的完整产品——因为我们在为自己打造工具——然后只是把鼠标悬在删除按钮上，狠狠按下去。

And the line that's been in my head the entire journey was I interviewed Cleo at the beginning of this and he talked about how designing at a startup is like making sand castles. You have to be okay with things being washed away. And that line has—I've said it on this podcast multiple times because it literally just echoes in my brain because all I'm doing is making decisions and then just falling in love with something and then watching it just crumble in the water over and over and over and over again. And the trust you have in somebody who's ideating and executing compounds when you also trust that given new information, they're going to be totally fine to just delete that. Which I think is probably—gosh, that might be like the biggest way that I've grown throughout this process is just loosening the grip on things that I really have put a lot of care and attention to detail in because I'm not actually capable of doing things without—it's probably a flaw for this environment—but that's hard, man. Like if you haven't been in that situation and you've only worked on things that have been well scoped and there's this expectation of staying power, like man, it's so hard to build whole products that you actually like and use—because we're building a tool for ourselves—and then just hover the delete button and smash it.

以前当一两个工程师花几个月做一个功能然后删掉时，我会感觉糟糕得多。现在如果某个东西不行，归档起来会稍微容易一点。但天哪，我记得在我的整个职业生涯中，这曾经让我痛苦不堪。感觉就像，天哪，我们写了那么多代码。

I used to feel significantly worse when one or two engineers were spending like months on a feature and delete it. Now it's a little bit easier to like archive something if it isn't working. But man, I remember it used to kill me all through my career. Feel like gosh, we wrote so much code.

我有一份我推动过但失败的赌注清单。就像它们——我可以直接从头到尾列出来，你懂的？当你花两个月构建某个东西时，你会感觉很糟糕。

I have the list of bets that I pushed for that failed. Like they just—I could just run through them, you know? You feel horrible when it takes 2 months to build something.

在我们结束这个话题之前，让我们谈谈接下来会发生什么，稍微展望一下。很多回忆。你知道，我们去了比我预想的更脆弱的地方。但当你向前看，考虑到我们经历的一切，以及定位、市场状况等等，你觉得 Inflight 的下一步是什么？你如何思考未来的战略以及在这个世界中的样子？

Before we draw a line on this, let's talk about what's next and look forward a little bit. A lot of reminiscing. You know, we went to more vulnerable places than I was even prepared for. But when you kind of look forward and given everything that we've went through and you know, the positioning, state of the market and everything, like what do you think's next for Inflight? How do you think about strategy moving forward and what that looks like in this world?

这是个难题。我觉得当我们缩小范围后，事情开始变得清晰一些。嗯，你知道，我们现在要推向市场的产品，我看着它就想，这是一个美丽、深思熟虑、有价值的产品，我们已经和数百名设计师和团队测试过，反馈很好。人们确实从中获得了价值。这一直是目标，对吧？就是做出有价值的东西。现在它已经实现了，你就得换个帽子，对吧？你会想，好吧，我们如何发展业务？如何创造销售势头？如何锁定营销？你知道，我们最近开始和 Tommy 合作，对吧？很棒的联合创始人。他非常擅长这些。我很兴奋能真正建立一家企业，而不仅仅是概念化产品和用例。嗯，我们还有一些相当大的赌注即将到来。我们处于独特的位置，可以做一些非常酷的事情。我很兴奋能翻过一直在代码和 Figma 中协作的这一页，然后说，酷，让我们为那些已经发现价值的人创造更多价值。以至于他们愿意告诉朋友他们喜欢使用 Inflight。我们已经看到了——它在增长。有些团队它简直就是公司的核心。总的来说，这让我非常高兴，我们终于能够以一款对人们有效的工具走到另一端。所以此时我想，好吧，下一步是什么？现在我们必须再次成为创始人，摆脱这种‘哦，一直只是代码模式’的状态。也许那就是社区。我期待看到你和 Tommy 也许举办一些晚宴和活动，真正建立品牌。我们这里有一个很棒的创始团队，我想我们已经——我们有一个 Discord 社区正在发展。我们一直想为设计师做出伟大的东西，我们认为这是一个很好的方式来赋能他们并围绕此创建社区。也许你可以多谈谈你是否看到任何机会。但我很想回到早期 Dribbble 的日子，他们分发篮球和 T 恤，在世界各地举办聚会和 Figma 聚会。设计师是一个如此特殊的群体，我觉得我们被贬低了一点，就好像，好吧，我们可以用代码做一切。我想仍然庆祝这种思考，我认为 Inflight 是其中的载体。你明白我的意思吗？

Tough question. I think when we narrowed things started getting a little bit clearer. Um, you know, the product we're taking to market now, I think I look at it and I'm just like, this is a beautiful, well-thought-through, valuable product that we've been testing with hundreds of designers and teams and it's coming back good. Like people do get value out of it. And that was always kind of the goal, right? Is make something valuable. And now that it's there, you kind of have to switch hats, right? You're like, okay, how do we grow the business? How do we create a sales movement? How do we lock in on marketing? You know, we've recently started working with Tommy, right? Amazing co-founder. He's so good at this stuff. I'm so excited to just really build a business versus just conceptualizing products and use cases. Um, and we have some pretty big bets coming down the pipeline. We're uniquely positioned to do some really cool things. I'm excited to just turn the page on collaborating in code and Figma all the time and just being like, cool, let's make more value for the people that already are finding it valuable. So much so that they're willing to tell their friend that they loved using Inflight. And we're already seeing that—it is growing. There's certain teams that it's just incredibly core to their company. And that gives me a lot of happiness in general that we've been able to finally come off on the other end here with a tool that does work for people. So it's like at this point I was like, okay, what's next? Now we got to be founders again and get out of this 'oh it's just code mode all the time.' And maybe that's community. Like I'm looking forward to seeing you and Tommy maybe hosting some dinners and events and actually building the brand out. We have a great founding team here and I think we've already—we got a Discord community going off. Like we wanted to make something great for designers the whole time and we thought there would be a great way to empower them and create a community around that. And maybe you can talk a little bit more about if you see any opportunities for that. But I would love to go back to kind of early Dribbble days where they were giving out basketballs and t-shirts and hosting meetups and the Figma meetups all around the world. Like designers are such a special class and I feel like we've been devalued a little bit where it's like, well, we could just do everything in code. I want to still celebrate the thinking of that and I think Inflight's like the vehicle for that. You know what I mean?

我觉得这方面的潜力非常令人兴奋。我制作内容是因为我喜欢分享，而且你知道，有时这甚至采取教学的形式。而教学，实际上就是，嘿，我今天学到了这个。然后快速分享，对吧？我也真的很兴奋能回到那种状态。我觉得在应对所有不同的转向和变化时，要弄清楚那是什么样子真的很难。而我的一部分始终是我的天性。所以，能够安定下来，就像，老兄，我前几天刚换了我们的图标库。我甚至不知道你有没有注意到，但我把它换成了 Central。我知道你没有。我知道你没有。整个产品中的每一个图标都不同了。所以，我把它换成了 Central，因为我发了一条推文，我说，‘酷孩子们用什么图标库？’我完全不知道——呃——iconists 有这个库，这让我很尴尬，但我构建了非常酷的工具来转换图标库，我能够在大约一个小时内用我构建的三个 jig 完成所有工作。然后我构建了自己的网络应用来切换图标。总之，你可以看出我只是在这方面变得很书呆子。这不是我想深入探讨的兔子洞。重点只是回到分享你正在学习的东西，并围绕此建立社区，这一直是我心之所向。所以我对此很兴奋。我也很兴奋能处于一个思考所有这些产品的前沿以及这对我们意味着什么的位置。现在我脑海中最重要的事情是，我们真的甚至在上周就接受了 MCP 就是一切。

I think the potential for that is pretty exciting. I make content because I like sharing and I like, you know, sometimes that even takes the form of teaching. And by teaching, it's literally just like, hey, I learned this today. Like, and just being quick to share, right? I'm really excited to get back into that, too. Like, I think it's actually been really hard while navigating all of the different pivots and changes to figure out what that looks like. And there's part of me that's always my natural disposition. And so, being able to settle back like, dude, I just changed our icon library the other day. I don't even know if you realized, but I switched it to Central. I know you didn't. I know you didn't. Everything—every single icon in the entire product is different. So, I switched it to Central because I put a tweet out and I was like, 'What are the cool kids using for icon libraries?' I had no idea that—uh—the iconists had this library, which I'm embarrassed by, but I built really cool tools to transition the icon library and I was able to do it all in like an hour from these three jigs that I built. And then I built my own web app to be able to switch the icons. Anyway, you can tell I'm just getting nerdy about this. This is not the rabbit hole I want to go down. The point is just getting back to sharing what you're learning and building community around that is always where my heart is at. So I'm excited about that. I'm also excited to be in a position to think about the forefront of where all these products are going and what that means for us too. And the big thing on my mind right now is we really even in the last week have embraced the MCP is everything.

我希望我用的每个工具都能在 Conductor 里跑通，这对做产品的设计师来说真的是一种清算。我花了很多时间做各种形式的仪表盘，说实话，我现在其实不太用仪表盘了，这很奇怪，对吧？这真的很难。

I expect every tool that I use to work inside of Conductor, which really forces you to—it's a reckoning as a designer who is working on a product. I've spent a lot of time working on different forms of dashboards, and like, dude, I don't really use the dashboards that much anymore, which is weird, right? Like, that's really hard.

我们见过这些团队搭的各种内部工具，而现在 Inflight 的一切其实都能融进你已有的内部系统里，而不是要求你来用我们的系统。

And we've seen so many different internal tools built by these teams, and actually everything about Inflight now just fits into whatever your internal system already is, versus asking you to use our system instead.

那这会走向哪里？这对增长、定位和叙事意味着什么？我们还有个 ChatGPT 应用或插件，还有 review，那意味着什么？那到底是什么？

Where does that go, and what does that mean for growth and positioning and storytelling? And we have a, you know, ChatGPT app or plugin and review, and like, what does that mean? What is it?

我很兴奋能站在最前沿，去探索把 UI 原子化、把产品体验的一小部分嵌进聊天里、让一切都由智能体驱动会是什么样子。而且大概还会请嘉宾上播客，了解他们在做什么，弄清那对 Inflight 意味着什么，带着大家一起走这段路——那对我们来说会是非常激动人心的新篇章。这也只是我本可以给出的五个不同答案之一。

I'm excited to be at the forefront of what it looks like to atomize UI and bake little parts of a product experience into a chat and have everything be agent driven. And, you know, probably having guests on the podcast to learn what they're doing and figure out what that means for Inflight and kind of bring people along for the journey—like, that's going to be such an exciting and new chapter for us. And it's one of, you know, five different answers that I could have given there.

所以现在做设计师很有意思。和朋友一起做事很有意思。把新想法从零做到一很有意思。因此我对这一切都挺兴奋的。

So it's a fun time to be a designer. It's a fun time to work with friends. It's a fun time to go zero to one on new ideas. And I'm pretty jazzed about everything as a result.

能做出让人——这始终是设计师的目标，对吧？就是做出有用的东西。

Fun time to have something that people—it's always the goal of the designer, right? Like, make something useful.

我对这次对话的一个期望，是让更多人意识到，他们不必先有答案，甚至不必有完美的点子。你完全可以先动手做点什么，然后自然走到那里，因为你现在能很快地把东西做出来。你不再像过去那样依赖别人。

I think a hope that I have from this conversation is that more people realize that they don't have to have the answers or even the perfect idea. You can kind of just start doing something and arrive there just because you can build really quickly. You're not as reliant on other people in the way that you were historically.

而且，作为设计师，我们就是解决问题的人。我们就是把它搞明白，你懂的。你完全可以选一条路，去探索，发现问题、解决问题，然后迭代。我希望更多人这么做。哪怕只有一个人听了这期节目，然后想：你知道吗，我要不再观望了，迈出第一步，去做一个属于我自己、由我来推进的东西。

And also, like, as designers, we're just problem solvers. We just figure it out, you know? Like, you could just pick a path and explore and find problems and solve problems and then iterate. And I hope that more people do that. Like, I hope that even just one person listens to this and they're like, you know what, I'm going to get off the fence and take my first step toward creating a thing that I own and get to run with.

说得再好不过了。嘿，如果你喜欢这期节目，别忘了每周四我都会和 Tommy Goyoko 一起直播 Dive Radio，我们会深入聊热门话题，也会听到业内许多了不起的设计师分享。如果你想把它加进日历，就去 dive.comclub/radio。我们周四美东时间下午 4 点见。

Couldn't have said it better. Hey, if you enjoyed this episode, don't forget that every Thursday I go live with Tommy Goyoko for Dive Radio, where we deep dive into trending topics and hear from a ton of incredible designers in the industry. So, if you want to get that on your calendar, just go to dive.comclub/radio. And I'll see you on Thursdays at 4:00 p.m. Eastern.