Stripe 的设计实践：与设计主管 Katie Dill 的深度对话

我们经常讨论设计格局的变化，但这对像 Stripe 这样的公司有何影响？

We talk a lot about how the landscape of design is changing, but how does that affect a company like Stripe?

不再有那种“哦，要是这样就好了”或者“那这个呢”的情况，我得去找几个人，说服他们，这样他们才能做出原型。现在更像是：我有个想法，这就是链接，去看看吧，你觉得怎么样？

There's no more of the 'oh, you know what would be great if' and like 'what about' like I got to go find some couple of people, I'm going to have to convince them of this so they can build the prototype. And it's just like I had an idea for this thing. So here it is, like here's the link. Go check it out. What do you think?

他们在新员工身上寻找哪些特质？作为一名设计师，在那里茁壮成长需要什么？

What traits are they looking for in new hires? And what does it take to thrive there as a designer?

你在产品开发中扮演的角色，从机会识别、产品塑造，一直到构建产品。你想要那些不知道我们要去哪里、不知道答案是什么的人，但他们知道答案就在某处，并且他们愿意起身去追寻。

The part you get to play in product development, you know, opportunity identification, product shaping, all the way down to building something. You want those people that they don't know where we're going. They don't know what the answer is, but they know that it's like somewhere out there and they want to get up and go.

欢迎收听 Dive Club。我是 Rid，这里是设计师永不停歇学习的地方。今天的节目是与 Stripe 设计主管 Katie Dill 深入探讨 Stripe 的设计。我们将讨论设计实践如何演变，以及他们为不断突破现状所做的所有小事。我喜欢这期节目的开头，因为 Katie 带我们了解了全新 Stripe.com 中的所有设计细节。

Welcome to Dive Club. My name is Rid and this is where designers never stop learning. Today's episode is a deep dive into design at Stripe with their head of design, Katie Dill. We're going to talk about how the practice of design is evolving and all of the little things that they do to consistently push past the status quo. And I love how this episode starts because Katie walks us through all of the little design decisions in the all-new Stripe.com.

你想做一些既新鲜新颖又具有持久力的东西。这并不容易，而且肯定有很多次迭代。我甚至无法告诉你我们看了多少种不同的波浪。在 Stripe 的这 5 年里，我们设计了数百万种波浪。这很棒，这是我最喜欢的工作部分之一——我们可以真正探索在代码中能用颜色、光线和形式做到什么的边界。可能性是无限的，我们当然已经探索了其中很大一部分。但你想找到一些你不会厌倦的东西，当你第一次打开网站时它有冲击力，但也能在这里扮演一个你会反复看到的角色。

You want to do something that's like fresh and novel but also is going to have lasting power. It's not easy and there were definitely many iterations. I can't even tell you how many different waves we've looked at. You know, at Stripe in general, I've been here about 5 years, we have designed millions of waves. And that's great, I mean it's one of my favorite parts of the job that we get to really just explore the boundaries of what one can do in code with color, with light, with form. There's infinite possibilities and we've certainly explored a large share of them already. But you want to find something that you're not going to get sick of, that has impact when you first come and open up the website, but also can play a role here that you're going to see again and again.

当我们探索一些元素时，我之前提到的关于讲故事的部分是解锁的关键，因为我们提供了很多东西，而且它们确实相互关联。我们有很多与我们合作的企业，他们使用我们的许多产品。他们可能用我们做基于使用量的计费，也用我们做支付，还用我们做智能体式商务，还用我们做发卡等等。你可以把这些东西一起使用，但它们也可以单独使用。很多组织只使用我们整个产品生态系统的某些部分。所以我们想清楚地展示我们做的广泛事情，同时也要让浏览规模变得容易，因为对于很多组织来说，他们可能从最初认识我们以来，并不知道我们已经构建了这些产品。

As we kind of go through some of the elements of the exploration, the part I was saying about the storytelling was like this was the unlock for that because we have a number of things that we provide and they relate for sure. We have plenty of businesses that work with us and they use a number of our products. So they might use us for usage-based billing, they also use us for payments, they also use us for agentic commerce, they also use us for issuing, etc. You can work with all of these things together, but also they can work in part. And plenty of organizations are only using us for certain parts of this overall product ecosystem. So we wanted to make it clear that kind of large gamut of things that we do, but also make it easy to traverse the scale of it because for a lot of organizations, they may not have known that we have built these products since they first got to know us.

体验的一个关键部分是，当你浏览并逐渐了解它时，我们如何让你保持专注，而不会完全分散你的注意力，以便你进一步了解。这就是这个页面覆盖层的作用。

A critical part of the experience too is as you traverse this and get to know it a little bit, how do we keep you centered here without completely distracting you to then learn a little bit more. So that's what this page overlay thing is for.

我认为这是最容易被抄袭的部分。我们会在未来几年疯狂复制这个网站。我觉得这个模式——你有一个便当网格，并且在网格本身中保持非常非常简单。太多便当网格塞满了文字，每个项目都强制三行副文本，而你们有一个非常干净的入口点，信息量随你所需。我要复制这个。我知道很多其他人也会这么做。

I think this is what's going to get copied the most for what it's worth. Like we're going to copy the heck out of this website over the next few years. I think this pattern where you have the bento grid and you're able to keep it really really simple in the grid itself. Like too many bento grids have all of the text and you're forcing three lines of subtext for each individual item and how you had like a very clean entry point with as much information as you want. Like I'm going to copy this. I know a bunch of other people are going to as well.

我觉得每个设计师都能理解想要层层叠加太多东西的挑战，对吧？比如“哦，我们在这里也放上价值主张，再给更多细节，为什么不列出每个相关产品？”这当然是一种权衡。当然，我们做了无数个不同版本的原型，尝试了不同的东西，但必须始终优先考虑用户体验。你知道，没人能同时阅读 19 样东西。所以我们在这里要做的是在层级中批评几个关键点。第一，我们想展示而不是讲述。所以，想象一下你来到一个网站，只读了页面上 10% 的文字，你能理解吗？我不知道你怎么样，但这就是我访问网站时的做法，对吧？我快速滚动，大致了解要点。所以我们寻找图像，让你不用读任何文字就能感受到它在说什么，然后尽可能快速、简洁、突出地说明这个东西是什么。

And I feel like every designer can relate to the challenge of wanting to layer in so much, right? Like 'oh well let's also put the value proposition here and let's give more detail and why don't you list out each of the related products?' And it was certainly kind of a negotiation in that. And of course, we've mocked up a million different versions where we've looked at different things, but also having to stay with the priority on the user's experience. And you know, nobody can read 19 things at once. And so what we're trying to do here is like kind of crit a few critical things in the hierarchy. Like one, we want to show rather than tell. So how can somebody, if you imagine you're coming to a website and you read only 10% of the words on the page, do you get a sense? Like I don't know about you, but that's what I do when I go to a website, right? Like I'm scrolling pretty fast and I'm kind of getting gists. So we're searching for imagery that gives you that sense of what that is talking about without having to read any of the words and then, as quick, concise, salient as we possibly can be about what this thing is.

我认为非常 Stripe 风格的一点是，我们努力在网站或任何地方都非常直白地说话，对吧？比如试图去掉营销话术和空洞的语言，那种你在很多网站上都能看到、让人翻白眼的东西。我们如何直接说出这个东西做什么、为谁做？这并不容易。我甚至无法告诉你我们在文字上做了多少次迭代才把它弄对。

And one of the things that I think is like a very Stripe-ism thing that I'm very glad for is we try really hard to just be very straightforward with our speaking in the context of the website or anywhere, right? Like trying to remove marketing speak and fluffy language that just, you know, you can kind of see in a lot of different sites and it just makes you kind of roll your eyes. How do we just say directly what the thing does and who it does it for? And not easy. It is definitely, I mean I can't even tell you how many iterations in the words that we've probably done here trying to get that right.

快速插播一条消息，然后我们继续。Jitter 刚刚发布了图片转视频功能，这相当重要。你只需上传一个素材，Jitter 就会借助 AI 立即生成一个短视频片段。这是为静态背景添加动感和深度的简单方法。也许为品牌视觉创建小片段，或者通常用微妙的动效让任何场景更生动。玩起来超级有趣，今天就可以使用。只需前往 dive.club/jitter 试试。不要成为那个作品集没有自定义域名的人。有了 Framer 的最新版本，你再也没有借口了，因为他们与 Hover 合作提供了无缝流程，你可以选择免费或折扣域名，购买后会自动连接到你的 Framer 网站。你没听错。Framer 为升级到年度计划的网站提供第一年免费的自定义域名。

Real quick message and then we can jump back into it. So Jitter just released image to video and it's a pretty big deal. All you have to do is upload an asset and Jitter will instantly generate a short video clip from it with the help of AI. It's an easy way to add motion and depth to static backgrounds. Maybe create little clips for brand visuals or just in general make any scene feel more alive with subtle movement. It's super fun to play with and available today. Just head to dive.club/jitter to try it out. Don't be the person with the portfolio that doesn't have a custom domain. With Framer's latest release, you don't have that excuse anymore because they partnered with Hover to provide a seamless flow where you can select free or discounted domains that will automatically be connected to your Framer site after purchase. You heard me right. Framer is offering free custom domains for the first year when you upgrade your site to a yearly plan.

能再深入聊聊这个吗？因为你做了一件我之前没见过的事——就是 Hero 区域最顶部的那个 H1 标题。我觉得现在几乎成了一个梗：公司规模越大，H1 就越泛化，对吧？一开始非常尖锐，到最后就变成「提供可操作的洞察」之类的话，毫无意义。你们做的事情太多了，如果硬要套进传统的 H1，就不得不写得非常笼统，因为七八个词根本装不下。我没见过这种模式——你直接写了一个句子作为标题。你们多快就定下来了？我很好奇，针对那段文案，你们探索的范围有多广？

Can we double click on that for a second? Because there's something that you do that I haven't seen before, which is that very top H1 in the hero section. I think there's like this almost meme at this point where as a company scales, the H1 becomes more and more generic, right? It starts off super pointed and by the end it's like delivering actionable insights kind of thing and it doesn't even mean anything. You're doing so many things. If you were trying to fit into a traditional H1, it would have to be generic. There's just too much to fit into something that is like seven or eight words. I haven't seen this pattern before where you basically wrote a sentence as your heading. How quickly did you get to that? I'm curious how wide the spectrum of exploration was for that piece of copy specifically.

嗯，这个问题提得很好，这确实是一场辩论。我记得团队给我看了几个不同的选项。其中一个当然是「金融基础设施，增长你的营收」，或者可能只是「金融基础设施」，就像我们之前的网站那样——那个词很大，其他东西都很小。我当时倾向于那个，觉得它更易读，因为一次只需要消化几个词。但团队强烈认为，这样更像是在为你将要体验的内容定下基调。我们不想羞于承认，我们有一个相当庞大、厚重的产品体系要告诉你。老实说，我觉得他们是对的。「金融基础设施，增长你的营收」——不能说很多人光看这几个字就确切知道那是什么意思，对吧？所以我们不要掩盖事实，那还不够。我们需要分享更多的词，让你了解这到底是什么。如果我们要求你停下来读一段文字，这有时会让我有点恼火，因为大多数时候我们在为用户设计时，都希望做到快速、简单、可扫读。但现实是，这里要传达的就不是那样。有更多的东西要说。

Yeah, it's a great call out and it definitely was a debate. I remember when the team showed me a couple of different options. One of them, of course, was like 'Financial infrastructure, grow your revenue' or maybe it was even just 'Financial infrastructure' like our previous site. That was large and everything else was smaller. I was gravitating towards that, thinking it would be more readable because it's just a couple of words I have to digest at once. But the team felt strongly that this feels more like we're trying to set the pace for what you are going to experience. We're not trying to be shy about the fact that we have a pretty big, hefty product system to tell you about. And honestly, I think they're right. 'Financial infrastructure, grow your revenue' — can't say a ton of people know exactly what that means just by reading that, right? So let's not hide the fact that that's not enough. There are more words we have to share with you to give you a sense of what this is. If we're kind of asking you to take a pause and read the paragraph, that sometimes irks me a little bit because most of the time when we're designing something for the user, we want to make it quick, easy, and skimable. But the reality is that that's just not what's being said here. There's more to say.

这个网站上还有没有其他你特别引以为傲的细节，最终呈现的效果让你满意？

Are there other details on this site that you're particularly proud of where they landed?

嗯，我们看看还有什么可以讲的。太多了。我真的为投入其中的工作感到骄傲。团队非常用心、非常投入，付出了巨大努力，只为找到那些「魔法时刻」。我觉得这个区域，我们称之为「数据可视化」。显然，这不是真正的数据可视化，更像是它的陪衬。看到人们的反应很有趣，比如「哦，为什么团队要花时间在这上面？这个视觉并没有传达任何信息。」但对我们来说，这个视觉传达了非常多。第一，为美而美本身就是一件美妙的事。而且其中确实有实用性。它带来愉悦，让东西更有吸引力。你想想，如果这个页面没有它，你可能就直接扫过去了。但它会让你停顿一下，想看看这到底是什么。而且，从你眼角余光看，它有没有在传达什么？是的，它在传达全球规模。你确实能从中读出那种感觉。你确实能感受到我们想通过这些视觉传递的某种要旨。它传达的另一件事是热爱、关怀和技术能力。同样，这是我们网站首页上一个重要的信息。我的意思是，我们处理人们的资金。我们是数百万家企业创建的一部分。他们依赖我们。所以，传达出我们关心细节、会不辞辛劳地制作这个动画，让它以恰到好处的方式运动，这可能是他们需要知道的重要事情。这里面有很多讲究。这只是一个有趣的东西，一个快乐的时刻，一个惊喜的时刻。背后有个很酷的故事：这里的视觉、图像，是其中一位首席设计师 Tatiana 在她登山旅行中拍摄的照片。不会吧。所以这些是真实的——这是她登山时太阳的颜色，被用在了这里。

Yeah, I mean, let's see what else to take through. There's so much. I'm really proud of the work that went into this. The team was so thoughtful and so dedicated and worked so hard to try to just find moments of magic. I think this area, we call it the data viz. Obviously, this is not an actual data visualization; it's more of an accompaniment to it. It was interesting to see people's response. Like, 'Oh, why would the team take time with this? The visual doesn't actually say anything.' Well, to us, the visual says a lot. Number one, beauty for the sake of beauty is a wonderful thing. And there quite literally is utility in that. It brings joy. It makes something more compelling. As you think about imagine this page without that, you would probably just skim right by. But it makes you take a beat for a second and want to see what this is about. And again, out of the corner of your eye, is it communicating something? Yeah, this is communicating global scale. You do get that read from that. You do get the sense that there is something — a gist that we are trying to give to you in these visuals. The other thing it communicates is the love, the care, the technical ability. And again, that is an important message on the front page of our website. I mean, we move people's money. We are a part of the creation of millions of businesses. They are relying on us. So to communicate that we care about the details and we are going to painstakingly work on this animation so it moves just the right way is probably an important thing for them to know. A lot goes into that. This is just a fun thing, a moment of joy, a moment of surprise. The cool behind-the-scenes story is that the visuals here, the imagery, are photographs from one of the lead designers on this, Tatiana, from her trips hiking in the mountains. No way. And so these are actual — this is the color of the sun when she was hiking that went behind this.

太酷了。我对这个区域非常兴奋，因为我们传达的很多重要信息是 Stripe 所做事情的影响、我们与谁合作、以及我们如何帮助企业成长并实现目标。正是这些让产品变得鲜活，对吧？当我告诉你我们做订阅时，你会说「不错，但我不懂那是什么意思」。但比如，我们帮助 Lovable 建立 AI 业务，让他们根据当时的推理率调整成本。这些都是非常有帮助的理解，然后你会更清楚这些产品是做什么的。所以我们很兴奋能把用户故事放进去。实际上，有好几个地方都出现了用户故事，就像你看到的。但这些只是我们做的一些有趣的图片，也是我们正在开展的一个活动的一部分——我们在各地投放了广告牌，也有类似的想法，让 Stripe 的平行四边形成为图像的一部分。等你们看到它们的动画版吧。它们确实有动画版，我们很快会上线。它们很讨喜，就像小小的魔法时刻。但总之，这真的很有趣，因为当我们撰写这个简报时，我们想的是：好吧，我们要讲述与我们和其他组织的合作。所以我们希望其他组织的品牌能体现出来，但同时也希望 Stripe 的魔法成为其中一部分。所以平行四边形出现在商业的语境中。我甚至无法告诉你这些背后流了多少血汗和泪水，因为 AI 很神奇，它能做很多感觉很好的事情。尤其是，你可以一次性搞定它。你会说，「是啊，看看那个，多棒啊。」但我们现在很少能达到那种状态——虽然每天都在变好——但要做到「可以发布」的程度，还差得远。

That's so cool. I'm very excited about this area because of course a lot of the importance of what we're communicating is the impact of what Stripe's doing and who we do it with and how we help businesses grow and help them accomplish their goals. That's what brings to life these products, right? When I tell you we do subscriptions, you're like 'sweet, I don't know what that means.' But it's like, well, we help Lovable so that they can build an AI business so that they change the cost depending on the inference rate at the time. These are very helpful things to understand and then it makes a bit more sense about what these products do. So we're excited to get user stories in there. There's actually several places where user stories show up as you can see. But these are just these kind of fun images that we're doing that are also a part of a campaign that we run where we have billboards around that have kind of the similar idea where the Stripe parallelogram becomes part of the image. Wait till you see them animated. They are. We have animated versions that we'll put up soon. They are delightful, just like little moments of magic. But yeah, this is just such an interesting thing because as we were kind of creating the brief on this, it's like okay, we're going to talk about the partnership with us and other organizations. So we want the other organizations' brand to kind of come through but we also want to have the Stripe magic as a part of it. So the parallelogram taking place in the business's context. I cannot even tell you the blood, sweat, and tears behind the scenes on these things because AI is magical and it does a lot of things that feel really good. Especially like, you know, you can one-shot it. You're like, 'Yeah, look at that. How amazing it is.' But very rarely are we at the point now yet gets better every day, but like okay, it's ship ready.

所以，今天我展示的这些图像，我真希望我能拿出 Crit 里实际发生的例子——因为当我看到图像经过 Crit 时，上面几乎每一寸都有小批注，比如“这里的灯光不对”、“这个阴影不太准确”。所以这其实是 AI 加上大量手动操作，在 Photoshop 和 3D 控制里反复调整，才能让图像达到正确的真实感，当然，当我们做动画时更是如此。所以想象所有这些细节挺有意思的，你会想：这些细节什么时候那么重要？如果我们不修正那里的灯光会怎样？我觉得现实是，潜意识里你会觉得有些不对劲，然后这会影响你对真实感以及所有其他细节背后用心的感受。所以这最终变成了一项艰巨但值得的努力。我个人最喜欢这个网站上完全没必要存在但很棒的细节，就是那些小分隔线的交互效果——它们会扭动和旋转。

And so like actually this imagery I'm showing you today, I wish I had the example of what actually happened in Crit because the image when I saw it go through crit is that they had like little notes almost like every inch on here of like the lighting is off right here and this shadow isn't exactly right. And so it is AI plus a lot of manual figuring it out in Photoshop 3D control and like reworking it to get the image and get the realism correct and of course when we animate them like even more so. So it's kind of interesting to imagine all those details and when you think about when does that detail matter that much like what if we didn't fix the lighting there. I think the reality is like subconsciously, you know, you would feel that something's off and then what does that then do to your feelings of the realism and the care behind all the other details. So that's kind of where it ends up becoming an arduous but worthwhile effort. I think my personal favorite detail on this site that totally does not have to exist, but it's amazing is the interactivity on the little dividing lines where they kind of twist and swirl.

难以置信。我不知道这怎么可能？像 Stripe 这样的大公司是怎么做出这种东西的？

Unbelievable. I don't know how like how does that even happen? Like how does a giant company like Stripe even ship something like that?

我们一直在思考，那些能增强体验但又不碍事的小细节、小魔力或小美感是什么。Patrick Collison 也问过这个问题，他给团队的说法是：现代主义留下了什么？当我们已经进化到现代建筑和现代产品设计中那种超干净、有时甚至枯燥的外观和感觉时，一切都关乎专注、清晰、留白和精简。这当然有它的好处。我非常希望让用户完全理解发生了什么，知道该关注哪里、该往哪里走，不想让他们的体验变得杂乱或碍事。但我们是不是走得太远了？我们是不是已经进入了一个状态，今天的一些产品体验会让人感觉有点脱节、有点枯燥、有点缺乏人性？所以我们寻找并思考，如何在不碍事的情况下引入这些元素。所以这当然是其中之一。这只是一个小细节。大多数人可能甚至不会注意到，但如果你注意到了，也许会让你会心一笑。就像这样，这是我们的小印记。就是这些有趣的小细节，给它增添了一份额外的用心。

We've been thinking about what are those little moments of detail or magic or of beauty that can kind of enhance an experience but not get in the way. And Patrick Collison has asked about it, the way he's kind of put it to the team is just like what are the things that modernism left behind, when we've evolved to this ultra clean, sometimes sterile look and feel in modern architecture and in modern product design, and it's all about focus and clarity and white space and clean it up. There's definitely some good in that for sure. I am very interested in allowing a user to fully understand what's going on and know where to focus and know where to move on and they don't want to clutter their experience or get in the way. But have we taken it too far? And have we gotten into a place where some of the product experiences today can feel a bit disconnected, a bit sterile, a bit lacking of humanity. And so we searched for and thought about where we bring that in in a way that doesn't get in the way. So that's of course one of them. It's just a little detail. Most people might not even see it, but if you do, maybe gives you a smile. Something like this where it's our little stamp. It's just fun little details that give it an extra touch of care.

你能跟我讲讲那个“新美学”的征集吗？我觉得很多人都看到了 Twitter 上的帖子。这背后的故事是什么？我很好奇这对 Stripe 的设计有什么影响。

Can you tell me a little bit about the call for a new aesthetic? And I feel like a lot of people saw the post on Twitter. What's the backstory there? I'm kind of curious how this influences the design at Stripe, too.

是的。你提到的假期期间，Patrick Collison 和 Tyler Cohen 发推文说，他们正在征集探索新美学理念的方案，并会为这些探索者提供资助。他们在那份非常简短的一页纸中描述的想法是，有机会思考这个新时代的新美学是什么，因为我们今天所处的时代感觉像是我们所见过的许多事物的延续。这不是他们的话，而是我的理解——我们确实陷入了一种困境：我们吸收了一些我认为绝对出色的美丽风格，比如包豪斯和国际建筑风格，以及优美的形式，但随着时间的推移，我认为人们对这些风格的理解变得敷衍了事，结果就出现了那些几乎毫无生气的简单表现——灰色混凝土块和玻璃幕墙，缺乏爱和关怀，它们不会优雅地老化，也没有体现出对人性的关怀、对美或细节的热爱。所以有机会去探索这一点。当然，在产品设计、数字产品设计或其他领域，你也看到大量重复的形式。最好的情况是干净，最坏的情况是生硬或枯燥。所以我们在与 Patrick 合作时听到了很多，他确实谈到过这一点，而且这在工作里经常出现，那就是：我们如何通过工作来体现对用户的关怀？其中一部分当然是制造功能强大、能做很多事情、解决用户问题的产品。这是第一点。但第二点，产品是否服务于用户？是否符合他们的心智模型？是否真正可用？第三点，它是否给体验带来愉悦？它美吗？用户喜欢使用它吗？这三件事都是产品质量和我们追求的重要部分。我很欣赏 Patrick 在我们团队中谈到这一点，我们在 Stripe 思考的是：我们在做什么来帮助塑造新美学？

Yes. So what you're talking about over the holidays, Patrick Collison and Tyler Cohen tweeted that they were putting out a call for proposals that were exploring ideas of new aesthetics and so that they would offer grants to people that are exploring these things. The thinking behind it as they describe in this kind of very brief one-pager is that there's an opportunity to think about what are the new aesthetics of this modern era because what we're living in today does feel like it is a continuation of many of the things that we've seen. And this is my words not theirs, but we've certainly kind of gotten into a bit of a rut where we have taken some of what I would consider absolutely exceptional beautiful styles from Bauhaus and international architecture and beautiful forms that over time I think people have kind of half-assed the interpretation of, and you get these almost lifeless simple manifestations of gray concrete blocks and window walls without love and care that they don't age well, they don't demonstrate a care for humanity and a love for beauty or for detail. So there's opportunity to explore that. Certainly also in product design, digital product design or what have you, is that you see a lot of the same forms again and again. At best they're clean, at worst they're stark or sterile. And so we've heard a lot in working with Patrick, like he certainly has talked about this and it's something that comes up in the work all the time, which is just like what are ways that we can demonstrate care for our users through our work. Part of that is certainly making products that are extremely powerful and can do a lot and solve our users' problems. That's number one. But number two, does the product serve them? Does it fit their mental model? Is it really usable? And number three, does it bring delight to their experience? Is it beautiful? Do they enjoy using it? All three of those things are very important part of product quality and what we strive for. And I appreciate that Patrick has talked about this in terms of our own team and we think about that at Stripe is what are we doing to help shape the new aesthetic.

这让我想起最近看的一个视频，是一个叫 Cultural Tutor 的游戏人做的。

It reminds me of this video that I watched recently. It's by a game guy named the Cultural Tutor.

哦，是的。对对对。

Oh, yes. Yes, yes, yes.

你看了吗？我当时就想，如果你还没看，一定要看，因为这完全就是你的菜。对于不熟悉的人来说，这个视频很大一部分是并列展示伦敦的各种灯柱，以及它们过去是多么精细。他们谈到旅游景点通常有这些灯柱，这是有原因的——即使你不一定注意到灯柱，待在那里感觉也很好。而现在一切都变得非常现代和极简。我的希望是，随着 AI 带来的效率提升，这为我们赢得了时间，不一定是去做更多广度上的事情，而是让我们有时间去制作那些精细雕琢、富有艺术感的灯柱。这在产品设计中会是什么样子？这就是我从那个视频中得到的启发——不一定非要追求更快。比如，看看我能启动多少个智能体，能同时处理多少个工作树。但反过来想，如果我放慢一点脚步，多投入一点心思，努力超越那些几乎开箱即用的东西呢？

Did you see this? I was like, you have to watch it if you haven't yet because it's right up your alley. For people who are not familiar, a big part of this video is juxtaposing the types of lamp posts in London and how they used to be incredibly detailed. And they talk about tourist spots often having these lamp posts and there's like a reason for that. It just feels good to be there even if you don't necessarily notice the lamp post. And now everything is just very modern and minimal. And man, my hope is that with all of the efficiency gains that we are getting with AI that it buys us time to not necessarily do more in terms of the breadth, but it gives us time to make the finely detailed and artistically chiseled lamp posts. And what does that look like in product design? That was what I came out of that video being inspired to do is like just not necessarily to try to go faster. Let's see how many agents I can spin up and how many work trees I can be working on simultaneously. And it's like what if I just slow down a little bit and put a little bit extra care and try to push past what I get almost out of the box.

说得太好了。

That is so well said.

我确实认为，随着东西变得更容易制造，人们也意识到更容易做出那些七分水平、基准体验的东西。我认为人们会更强烈地呼唤、更渴望那些能体现出更多热爱和用心的东西。实际上，《大西洋月刊》上有一篇很棒的文章，叫《美，新的商业工具》。这是 1927 年的《大西洋月刊》。哇哦。作者谈论的是第二次工业革命之后，当时东西被大规模生产、机器制造。作者说人们渴望那些能体现出更多热爱和用心、体现制造者心血的东西。你想想 Zara 和 Hermès 的对比，对吧？你会觉得，'没错，这件东西是经过精心打磨和呵护的，所以它才能达到那个价位，而不是那种大规模生产、谁都能拥有的东西。'我认为，当我们看到 AI 能让我们做什么时，它可以创造出一个设计工厂，能够生成大量不错的基准产品。但真正能脱颖而出的东西，将是那些在基准之上展现出额外热爱和用心的东西。我同意你的看法，那个视频太棒了。我强烈推荐大家去看一看。当你回顾过去东西的制作方式，以及人们倾注其中的热爱和心血时。另一个好例子是，他展示了污水处理厂，对吧？那些被如此热爱的污水处理厂。

And I do think as things get easier to make, people are aware that it is easier to make things that are the seven out of ten, the baseline experience. I think there'll be even a stronger call, a stronger want for those things that demonstrate a little bit more love and care. Actually, there's a great article from The Atlantic: 'Beauty, the New Business Tool.' This is from 1927 in The Atlantic. Oh, wow. And so what the author is talking about is off the heels of the second industrial revolution, where things were being mass-produced and machine-made. The author was talking about how people were yearning for things that showed a bit more love and care, the care of the maker. You think about a Zara versus a Hermes, right? You're just like, 'Yes, this thing that was labored over and cared for, that's why it achieves a price point versus a thing that was kind of mass production, anybody can have it.' And I think when we look at what AI will allow us to do, it can kind of create a design factory and enable the creation of a lot of decent baseline things. But what are the things that are going to really set themselves apart? They are going to be the things that demonstrate that extra love and care beyond that. And I agree with you, that video is so phenomenal. I strongly recommend people give it a watch. When you look back at the way things used to be made and the love and care that people labored over. Another good example is he shows sewage plants, right? Sewage plants that were so loved.

它看起来像一座博物馆。

It looks like a museum.

没错。而不是那些平庸的东西。人们会说，这关乎成本和规模。我认为有时这是合理的。我能理解，让每根灯柱都成为宝石可能成本太高。但并非总是如此，我认为有时是懒惰。我们允许自己用这个借口。我认为你说得完全正确，工具已经消除了这个借口，因为现在更容易为了美而投入更多的关心、关注、细节和美。所以希望我们会看到这场新革命的一部分，即对作品中的热爱、用心和美的更大承诺。

Exactly. Versus things that are just meh. And people will talk about it's about cost and scale. And I think sometimes that's reasonable. I can see how some things are probably cost prohibitive to make every lamp post a gem. However, not, I think sometimes it's laziness. I think we've allowed ourselves that excuse. And I think you are totally right that the tools have taken that excuse away because it is easier to put more care, attention, detail, and beauty for the sake of beauty into things now. So hopefully we'll see a part of this new revolution, a greater commitment to love, care, and beauty in the works.

我认为这次对话中我特别想深入探讨的一个大问题是，事情是如何变化的？Stripe 的设计实践是如何变化的？

I think a big part of this conversation that I'm really interested in digging into is how are things changing? How's the practice of design at Stripe changing?

我确实认为我们周围的一切都在快速演变，Stripe 的定位特别有趣，因为我们所做的事情。我们为数百万企业构建工具。这些企业也在演变和变化，对吧？他们正在使用 AI，人们建立和启动业务的方式显然不同。所以我们有压力要弄清楚如何很好地合作，快速演变，并让我们的产品与他们一起演变。这是第一个机会。其次，我们可以用 AI 让我们的产品更有趣、更好、更个性化、更有价值、响应更迅速。第三，我们可以将 AI 用于我们的工作方式：如何加速产品开发、扩大创意探索等等。所以现在事情在三个方面有所不同。是的，我会说这确实改变了设计运作的方式。这周我们一直在为春季活动的一些大型即将发布的产品进行一系列评审。我们看到的大部分工作都是原型。我们构建了一个内部工具，叫做 Protodash，我们可以用它极其快速地创建 AI 原型，这些原型看起来和感觉上都像 Stripe 的仪表盘。你可以在这个游乐场中构建它，并从一个起点进行演变，所以它大大加快了速度，因为它已经处于上下文中。每当我们做工作时，我们都在尽可能快地理解用户会有什么感受，所以把它放在上下文中非常有帮助。没有产品是用户孤立感受到的；他们通常是从别处来的，或者接下来会跳到别处。所以在这个上下文中看到它很关键。现在设计师、工程师或产品经理可以快速地在看起来、感觉起来、运作起来像真实产品的东西中模拟这些不同的想法，这太棒了。这对设计师的改变意味着，你现在可以直接构建东西。不再有'哦，如果能这样就好了'和'那怎么样'以及'我得找几个人说服他们来构建一个原型'。而是'我对这个东西有个想法，这就是它，这是链接，去看看吧，你觉得怎么样？'这非常令人兴奋。我们可以看一堆链接：这是一年后的样子，这是六个月后的样子。所以我们可以更有探索性。不是所有东西都像以前做愿景工作时那样珍贵和昂贵。以前会想，'我们真的要让人放下其他工作两个月去探索一个东西，然后可能根本不会构建吗？'现在我们可以做到，而不会对其他事情造成那么大的成本。我认为我们看到了更多的探索，更多的想法被思考，更多的想法被尝试，更多的想法被呈现给用户。我想如果你问设计师，他们会说他们更有能力主动提出大想法，这是件好事。

I do think everything around us is evolving rapidly and Stripe's positioning is particularly interesting because of what we do. We are building tools for millions of businesses. These businesses are evolving and changing, right? They are using AI and the way people are building businesses and getting going is obviously different. So there's pressure for us to figure out how to partner really well and evolve quickly and evolve our products with them. That's one opportunity. Secondly, we can use AI to make our products more interesting, better, more personalized, more valuable, more responsive. And thirdly, we can use AI for the way we work: how do we accelerate product development, expand creative exploration, all of these things. So there's a three-fold way that things are different now. And yes, I would say it does change the way design operates. We've been doing a series of reviews this week for some big upcoming ships we have at our event coming up in the spring. Most of the work we're seeing are prototypes. We built an internal tool we call Protodash where we can create AI prototypes extremely rapidly that look and feel like the Stripe dashboard. You can build it in this playground and evolve it from a starting point, so it speeds things up quite a bit because it's already in context. Whenever we're doing work, we're trying as quickly as possible to understand what the user is going to feel, so putting it in context is extremely helpful. No product is ever felt by your user in isolation; they usually got there from something else or they're bouncing off to something next. So seeing it in that context is key. The fact that now designers, engineers, or PMs can mock up these different ideas pretty quickly in something that looks like, feels like, works like the real thing is awesome. What that means for how a designer changes is that you can just build things now. There's no more 'Oh, what would be great if...' and 'What about...' and 'I have to go find a couple of people and convince them to build a prototype.' It's just 'I had an idea for this thing, so here it is, here's the link, go check it out, what do you think?' That's super exciting. We can look at a number of links: here's what it's going to look like in a year, here's what it's going to look like in six months. So we can be a bit more exploratory. Not everything feels so precious and costly like it used to be to do vision work. It's like, 'Are we really going to take people off other work for two months to go explore a thing and then maybe not get built?' Now we can do that without such a great cost to everything else. I think we get more exploratory, more ideas being thought about, more ideas being tried, more ideas put in front of users. I think if you ask the designers, they would say they're just more empowered to be proactive with big ideas, which is a good thing.

当设计实践发生如此大的变化时，它在多大程度上改变了流程、仪式和协作？考虑到甚至工具层面都在变化，这又是如何变化的？听起来你们在交给设计师作为探索想法的游乐场方面投入了相当多。

When the practice of design changes that much, how much does it evolve the process or rituals, collaboration? How is that changing given the fact that even down to the tooling? It sounds like you guys have invested pretty heavily in what you're handing over to designers as a playground to explore these ideas.

请不要做演示。请不要推销你的想法。请不要花一周时间做幻灯片来谈论这个东西。我不希望你那样做。我不希望你浪费那个时间。老实说，我也不想听。让我们直接进入工作。我只想像用户一样看到它。

Please don't present. Please don't pitch your ideas. Please don't take a week making a deck to talk about the thing. I don't want that for you. I don't want you to waste that time. And honestly, I also don't want to hear it. Let's just get into the work. I just want to see it like a user.

我们常这么说，我可能在整个设计领导生涯里也一直这么说，但我觉得现在真的到了那个阶段。人们要做出原型比以前容易太多了。所以，这周我做的很多评审就是一句话定好方向，然后说，好，我们进去看看，点一点，感受一下它用起来怎么样。另一个方面是团队内部的动态。设计师一直有把想法可视化的超能力，展示给别人远比说给别人好。但我觉得把那些想法整合起来仍然相当耗时且成本高昂。尽管我总说，“不，不，不，今晚下班后随便做个模型，明天给团队看，让他们兴奋起来”，但那最后也是很大的工作量。现在你几乎可以直接通过提示词得到那些想法。所以我认为，在产品开发的早期阶段，人们沟通和提供更多想法变得更容易、更快速，并且通过这种可视化方法能更快地推动战略。

I think we've often said that, and I've probably been saying this all my years of design leadership, but I feel like we're there now. It's just a lot easier for people to get to that prototype stage. So yeah, I feel like a lot of these reviews I've been doing this week, it's one sentence set up and then it's like, okay, let's go into it, let's click around, and let's see what it would feel like and work like. I think the other part is the dynamic that can happen in a team. Designers have always had superpowers of visualizing ideas, and it's far better to show people rather than tell people. But I think it was still pretty time-intensive and costly to put those ideas together. As much as I said, 'No, no, no, just tonight after work, mock it up and then show it to the team tomorrow and get them excited,' that ended up being a lot of work. Now you can literally just prompt your way to those ideas. So I think it is easier and faster for folks to communicate and provide more thoughts at the earlier stages of product development, and drive strategy faster with that kind of method for visualization.

以 Stripe 为例，我们随着设计随时间演变而进化。Stripe 最初构建产品时非常注重 API，因此设计可能更表面化：营销网站看起来如何，用户如何接触 API，设计参与较少。随着时间的推移，我们的产品变得更多、更复杂，它们在界面、UI 和仪表板中扮演了更大的角色。所以设计师从非常关注表面层面，演变为深度体验开发的深度参与者。现在我认为这种转变还在继续，借助 AI 的力量，我们可以更快地开发早期想法，在项目更早的阶段做出贡献，并降低提出新想法的门槛。所以我认为这对组织和合作关系都是净正面。

At Stripe, for example, we were part of an evolution as design changed over time. When Stripe first started building products, it was very API-focused, and design therefore could be a bit more surface-level: how does the marketing website look, how does one encounter the API, and design was less involved. Over time, our products became far more numerous and complex, and they have a bigger role in an interface, a UI, and a dashboard. So designers have evolved from being really focused on the surface level to being deep participants in the development of the deep experience. And now I think that transition continues as well, now also with the powers of AI we can much more rapidly develop early-stage ideas, contribute in even earlier stages of the project, and lower the barrier to entry to put new ideas on the table. So I think it's a net positive for the org and a net positive for the partnership.

我真的很喜欢这一点，因为我认为有一种叙事我经常看到，即使在互联网的不同角落和不同的设计社区里，那就是通过更多地用代码工作，我们实际上几乎在缩小探索空间，并在某种程度上限制了创造力。但你同时从两个方面谈论，就像在说，不，不，我们正在制作功能性和真实的东西，同时又极具创造力，正如你展示的所有不同事物所证明的那样。能够平衡这两点，表明这正是我未来想要拥有的实践类型。

I really like that because I think that there's a narrative that I see frequently, even in different parts of the internet and different design communities, where by playing more in code, we're actually almost narrowing our exploration space and capping creativity in a way. But you're simultaneously talking on both fronts where it's like, no, no, we are making things that are functional and real and yet deeply creative, as evidenced by all of the different things that you are showing. Being able to hold both of those in balance is indicative of the type of practice that I want to have moving forward.

我们确实看到更多设计师在做更多产品思考，传统上属于 PM 的工作：产品思考、产品塑造、问题开发或问题识别。然后我们也确实看到 PM 说，“我有个想法，我们来做个模型，用提示词来实现它。”我很高兴看到这一点，也很高兴工程师能更快地创造想法。所以我们只是在缓解学科之间存在的交流障碍。但这也意味着，有了这个，我们现在能做什么？我们能看多少更多的创意想法？以前我们只是尽量减少，因为我们没有足够的时间，或者做三个原型比做一个成本高得多。而现在，你可以做 30 个。

We certainly see more designers doing more product thinking, what has traditionally been PM-like: product thinking, product shaping, problem development or problem identification. And then we definitely are seeing PMs say, 'I've got an idea, let's mock it up, let's prompt our way there.' And I'm glad for that, glad for engineers to be able to more rapidly create ideas. So we're just easing the interchange moments that existed between disciplines. But it also means then, with that, what now can we do? How many more creative ideas can we look at that before we were just kind of minimizing because we just didn't have enough time, or it was a lot more costly to make three prototypes than to make one? And now I mean you can make 30.

听起来有很多自下而上的创新在发生。上次我们谈话时，你随口跟我提到，这有点像新年新机遇之类的事情。所以也许我可以抛给你一个假设：假设现在是 2026 年底，你在回顾这一年和 Stripe 的设计团队。你希望看到什么，才能让你觉得，“是的，今年对设计团队来说是很好的一年。我为我们如何与时俱进感到自豪。我为我们达到的成就感到自豪。”

It sounds like there's quite a bit of bottoms-up innovation happening. When we last talked, you mentioned something kind of off-hand to me about how it's like a new year kind of new opportunities thing. So maybe I could toss a hypothetical your way, which is let's say it's the end of 2026 and you're reflecting back on this year and the design org at Stripe. What would you hope to see that would make you be like, 'Yeah, this year was a good year for the design org. I'm proud of how we've evolved with the times. I'm proud of where we got to.'

嗯，我认为在设计社区中，我们都在谈论这些工具如何提高了下限，这很棒。我们可以快速构建更多普遍不错的东西。太棒了。我们还需要做的是提高上限。我们的品味和能力如何能更进一步？当我们不那么忙于做基础工作时，我们能否利用那段时间做一些特别的事情？这些肯定是我在思考的。例如，随着我们 Scaling（规模扩张）并使用这些工具，随着我们快速原型化和快速创造，我们如何进一步利用我们的系统？我不需要人们在事情运行良好的时候重新发明轮子，而且你希望为用户提供良好的连贯性和一致性。所以例如，我不需要人们每次做日期选择器时都重新发明下拉菜单。那看起来很基础。然而，我确实希望人们思考：什么时候现状在阻碍你，什么时候有机会为用户做更好的事情？所以从第一性原理思考：这真的是做这件事的最佳方式吗，还是需要更好的东西？那可能是纯粹的美学：这里有没有机会做得更美？或者这个模式不是一个好的交互，它有局限性，它不允许我们做某件事？

Well, I think with a lot of the design community, we're all talking about how awesome it is that these tools are raising the floor. We can build more generally good things quickly. Awesome. What we also need to do is raise the ceiling. How can our taste and ability go further? When we're not so busy doing basic stuff, can we take advantage of that time to do something extra special? Those things are definitely on my mind. So for example, as we scale and as we use these tools and as we rapidly prototype and rapidly create, how do we only further leverage our systems? I don't need people to reinvent the wheel when things are working really well, and you want to be able to provide good coherency and consistency for the user. So for example, I don't need people to reinvent the dropdown for the date picker every time they do one. That seems basic. However, I do want people to think about when is the status quo holding you back, and when is there an opportunity to do something even better for the user? So thinking from first principles: is this genuinely the best way to do this, or does this require something better? That could be purely aesthetics: is there an opportunity to do something more beautiful here? Or is this pattern not a good interaction, is it limiting, does it not allow us to do a thing?

我给你一个更具体的例子。去年我们在 Stripe 推出了 Financial Accounts。这对用户来说是一个很棒的解锁，因为以前的情况是，人们使用 Stripe 在线或线下销售商品并收款，钱进入 Stripe 后，他们再把它转到银行账户，也许转到另一个地方或另一个国家等等。这涉及成本和时间，所有这些步骤都很痛苦。现在他们可以把钱带进来，然后在 Stripe 内就拥有所有这些超能力。他们只需通过电子邮件就可以向任何人付款。这变成了一种更简单、更快、更有用的做事方式。但当团队为这个产品做设计工作时，他们当然使用了系统，它看起来就像我们系统在仪表板中的常规方式。

I'll give you a more tactical example. Last year we launched Financial Accounts at Stripe. This is an awesome unlock for users because before, what was happening is people were using Stripe to sell their goods online or in person and take money, and the money would come into Stripe and they would move it out to a bank account, maybe move it to another thing or another country or whatever. And it's cost and time, that's what was involved in all those steps, and it was painful. Now they can bring the money in and then they have all these superpowers with it right in Stripe. They can pay out to anybody just with an email. It just becomes this much easier, faster, useful way of doing things. But when the team was doing the design work for this thing, they of course used the system and it looked like the usual way our system does in the dashboard.

我记得那次评审，我们所有人聚在一起，我们的产品和业务负责人 Will 评论说：“这感觉没有这个产品实际应有的那么神奇。”他完全正确。我们当时只是用了非常基础的表单字段和基本的抽屉交互，你一步步操作，回答一个问题，然后进入下一步。但真正的魔力在于，你有一些容器，可以非常流畅地在其中移动东西。通过直接操作，我们可以在 UI 中实现那种流畅性，并以一种非常清晰的方式呈现：“哦，我有这笔钱，这是美元，这是英镑，我可以把它移到这里。”UI 并不适合其目的，它利用了现状，而现状是次优的。所以这是一个机会，我希望看到创造力，思考什么是对用户最好的方式，什么能真正满足他们的需求并兑现我们的承诺。我的意思是，我希望我们处于一个更好的位置，让人们更容易选择这些挑战，看到这些机会，真正推动他们的创造力，并推动我们做事的方式，或许能创造新的模式、新的范式或新的美学，为体验增添趣味。我认为我们正在通过让工具更强大、更好地利用现有系统来解锁这一点。所以，你不需要在不必要的地方重新发明轮子，让人们能够直接构建东西。你可以构建这些想法，传达它们，并测试它们。所以到 2026 年底，我想我会给你讲更多这样的故事，关于团队中任何地方的人有了想法，做出原型，也许展示给一些用户，让人们兴奋起来，然后我们能够简化路径，把它推出去，构建并上线，这样我们就能从中学习并不断推进。

And I remember the review, and we're all meeting together, and Will, our head of product and business, was commenting like, 'This doesn't feel as magical as this product actually is.' And he was totally right. What we were doing was using very basic form fields and basic drawer interactions where you go through one step, answer a question, go to another one. But the magic actually is that you have these containers that you can fluidly move things through. With direct manipulation, we can make that happen as fluidly in the UI and present it in a way that's very clarifying: 'Oh, I have this bucket of money, this is in USD, this is in pounds, I can shift it over here.' The UI was not fit to purpose; it was leveraging the status quo, which was suboptimal. So that's an opportunity where I want to see creativity and think about what is the best way of doing this for our users, what will really help answer their needs and deliver on the promise of what we have. Where I'm going with this is that I want us to be in a better position where it's easier for people to pick these battles, see these opportunities, really push their creativity, and push the way we're doing things to maybe create new patterns, new paradigms, or new aesthetics that bring interest to the experience. And I think we're unlocking that by making tools more powerful, better leveraging the systems that exist. So again, you're not reinventing the wheel where it's unnecessary, and making it so that people can just build things. You can build these ideas, get them across, and test them out. So by the end of 2026, I would imagine I'd have a lot more stories for you about where that's happened and where people at any part of the team had an idea, mocked it up, maybe showed it to some users, got people excited, and we could streamline the path to getting it out there, building it, and getting it live so we can learn from it and keep pushing.

嘿，很快说一下，让我告诉你全新的 Dive Talent Network。我亲手聚集了超过一百位我所知道的最有才华的设计师和构建者，这样我就可以把他们推荐给我最喜欢的公司。所以，如果你正在听这个，并且对新的机会持开放态度，这个人才网络是匿名的，而且压力非常小。这只是一种简单的方式，看看有什么机会，而不必在社交媒体上发帖。所以，如果你有兴趣加入，或者你正在寻找下一个员工，请访问 dive.club/talent。

Hey, really quickly, let me tell you about the all-new Dive Talent Network. I've hand assembled over a hundred of the most talented designers and builders that I know so I can recommend them to my favorite companies. So, if you're listening to this and you're open to new opportunities, the talent network is anonymous and super low pressure. It's just an easy way to see what's out there without having to post on social media. So, if you're interested in joining or maybe you're looking for your next hire, head to dive.club/talent.

尤其是随着 AI 不断提高基准，长期来看，7 分体验的成本将趋近于零。对我来说，最令人兴奋的部分是这种精力的集中，以及像你所说的那样进行战略思考：“嘿，产品的这一部分很神奇，如果我们把五倍的资源、时间和创造力直接投入到这些面板的移动方式或任何看起来的样子上，会怎么样？”这很令人兴奋。

Especially as AI continues to raise the floor, the cost of the 7 out of 10 experience is going to be borderline free in the long run. And to me, the most exciting part of that is this concentration of effort and really thinking strategically like you said, 'Hey, this part of the product is magical, what if we just took five times the amount of resources and time and creativity and pointed it directly at the way that these panels move or whatever that looks like?' It's exciting.

是的。我喜欢这个说法。这真是个好说法。就像 7 分体验的成本是 8 分。那么现在我们如何创造一些 15 分体验呢？

Yes. I love that. And that is such a good way of putting it. Like the seven out of 10 experiences for eight. So now how do we make some 15 out of 10 experiences?

是的。那我们就深入探讨一下 15 分体验吧。因为听你说话，你多次提到有一个良好的反馈文化，人们在真正地互相推动。所以你能不能更深入地谈谈这在实践中是什么样的，无论是评审还是异步协作？我们能不能把聚光灯打在 Stripe 的协作上？

Yeah. Let's dig into the 15 out of 10 then. Because listening to you talk, multiple times you've pointed at the fact that there's a good feedback culture happening, people are really pushing each other. So can you just go a little bit deeper into what does that look like in practice, whether it's crit or async? Can we just kind of shine a flashlight on collaboration at Stripe?

是的，我认为这是我在那里期间一直努力的事情之一，因为我们追求高标准。我们希望成为一个地方，最优秀的人在这里做他们一生中最好的工作，我们不满足于“足够好”，也不接受平庸。我和 Patrick Collison 也谈过很多次，有时候他或我或我们会在最后一刻叫停某个项目。我的意思是，他曾要求我们修改已经上线的广告牌。我们讨论过这是件好事，因为很多公司不会这么做。我想我们很多人可能都曾在这样的公司工作过，你会有那种“这不太好，但我们必须发布”的时刻。而且我们已经投入了那么多时间。如果我们不发布，团队会崩溃，对吧？这种情况发生过多少次？

Yeah, I think it's one of the things that we have continued to work on in my time there because we aim to have high standards. We want to be a place where the best people are doing the best work of their lives and that we are not okay with good enough and we are not okay with mediocre. I've had a lot of conversations with Patrick Collison about this too, of just like there have been times where he or I or we have pulled the plug on something last minute. I mean, he has asked us to make changes to billboards that were already up. And we've talked about how that's a good thing, because a lot of companies don't do that. I think a lot of us have probably been in companies where you've had that moment of 'it's not great, but we got to get it out.' And we've earned like we put so much time into it. The team will be crushed if we don't go for it, right? How many times has that happened?

完全同意。我真的很欣赏这一点。

Totally. And I really really appreciate that.

当我们面临那个决定，比如“团队会崩溃”或者“我们放弃它，但知道它是平庸的”，我每次都会选择进行那个艰难的对话，花点时间思考这到底是不是真的很好，如果不是，就修复它。而且我认为团队，最终，虽然那可能是一个艰难的对话，比如“好吧，我们决定停止这个项目”或者“我们决定在它上线后撤下它”，但我认为他们最终，绝对，我们招聘的那种人，他们希望为自己的工作感到自豪，做伟大的事情，给宇宙留下积极的印记，最终他们会很高兴创造他们引以为豪的东西，而不是发布平庸的东西。坚持那个高标准。所以，我认为这是其中的一部分。这是我们努力的方向。我们每次都做对了吗？不，绝对没有。确实有一些我们发布的东西可能不是正确的决定，但我们努力做到。然后在反馈文化方面，我认为这也很困难，对吧？因为我希望它成为一个设计师感到可以冒险的地方，没有对失败的恐惧，他们可以尝试疯狂的想法，并且在进入评审或其他环节时减轻一些压力。

When we're faced with that decision and it's like, 'Oh, the team will be crushed' or 'we let it go and we know it's mediocre,' I would every time rather have that hard conversation and take the moment there to think about whether or not this is actually great and if it's not, fix it. And I think the team, in the end, while that might have been a hard conversation of like, 'Okay, we decided to stop this project' or 'we decided to take it down after it was already up,' I think they would, in the end, absolutely, certainly the type of people that we're hiring that want to take pride in their work and do great things and put a positive dent in the universe, in the end are going to be glad to be creating things that they're proud of rather than put something out that is mediocre. Hold that high standard. So anyway, I think that's a part of it. That's what we strive for. Do we always get it right? No, absolutely not. And there are definitely things that we've shipped that maybe that wasn't the right call, but we strive for it. And then in the feedback culture, I think this is also tough, right? Because I want it to be a place where designers feel like they can take risks, that there isn't a fear of failure, that they can try things, wild and crazy things, and also just take a little bit of the heat off of like when they're going to go into a review or whatever.

我不希望人们提心吊胆，担心事情会不会顺利。与此同时，我们也在严格审视和打磨产品，问自己它到底好不好。这两件事同时做很难。我在 Stripe 期间，我们一直在讨论：如何兼顾两者？如何既营造一个温暖、包容、可以尝试、失败和冒险的环境，又保持高标准？我不知道答案——如果你知道，请告诉我。我们最好的办法就是直接挑明，坦诚相待：我们做的是严肃的工作。比如，如果产品里有 bug 或拼写错误，那就是大事，因为我们处理的是用户的资金，合作伙伴依赖我们把工作做好。从表层到基础设施，都是他们信任我们的一部分。如果我们允许任何侵蚀信任的东西存在，那一切都会受到质疑。所以我们希望在每一层都展示对质量的承诺，从表层体验开始。我们做的是严肃的工作，这意味着我们要对交付的产品负很大责任，但在这个过程中，我们也希望它是一个可以实验的地方，不是所有东西一开始就完美。这就是对话的本质——彼此坦诚，说‘这部分还没搞定’。好的对话就由此而来。

I don't want people to be on edge, wondering if things will go well or not. At the same time, we're pairing that with beating this thing up and looking at it really tightly, asking ourselves if it's great or not. Doing those two things can be hard. It's definitely something we've been talking about during my time there: how do we do both? How do we make it warm and accepting, a place where we can try, fail, and take risks, while also holding high standards? I don't know what the answer is—definitely let me know. Our best shot is just calling that out and being real: we do serious stuff here. For example, if there are bugs in our product or a typo, that's a big deal because we move people's money, and our partners rely on us to do the work well. Our surface level all the way down to our infrastructure is part of what they trust in us. If we allow things that erode trust to exist, that can put everything in question. So we want to demonstrate a commitment to quality at every level of the stack, starting with that surface-level experience. We do serious work, which means we should take a lot of responsibility for what we ship, but in the process, we'd love for it to be a place where people can experiment and not everything is perfect right off the bat. That's where the nature of the conversation comes in—being real with each other, saying, 'Just so you know, this part is not figured out yet.' Good conversation can come from that.

好的。我们聊了很多关于设计师在 Stripe 的角色演变。这让我想谈谈招聘，以及你在不同候选人身上看重什么。你显然在五年里招聘了很多人。我想知道的是：回想你刚加入 Stripe 时寻找的主要信号，现在当你思考想招什么样的人来建设这个组织、实现愿景时，最大的变化是什么？

Okay. So we've been talking a lot about how the role of the designer has evolved at Stripe. It makes me want to talk a little bit about hiring and what you're looking for in different candidates. You've obviously hired a lot of people over the course of 5 years. What I'd love to know is: when you think about the main signals you were looking for when you first joined Stripe, what are some of the biggest changes now as you're thinking about the types of people you want to bring into this org and build around for the rest of this vision?

我认为有些主题仍然相同，但寻找的方式已经调整。好奇心一直是我最看重的特质之一。我在寻找那些谦逊、才华横溢、充满好奇心、不断成长、不断理解工作环境、用户体验或合作者的人。这通常能让团队变得更好。如今，这种好奇心已经演变。关键点是这个人是否积极拥抱 AI 带来的演变或革命。这令人畏惧、不知所措——你觉得自己刚跟上，第二天又有了新模型、新工具、新可能。我不指望每个候选人都能完全搞明白，因为他们一旦觉得自己掌握了，就过时了。但他们要表现出真正的兴趣和好奇心。回到我之前说的，Stripe 的工作非常复杂，因为它关乎用户的体验、他们如何使用技术、技术如何塑造他们的业务、我们如何为他们提供支持，以及我们如何构建这些工具。对这项技术有浓厚兴趣的人，很可能也对用户的经历更感兴趣，也更有能力塑造这些事物。AI 产品思维是不同的——它是一种非确定性的产品。你必须在一个全新的层面上拥抱模糊性，并将其视为塑造自己工作和产出的巨大机会。我们需要看到这一点。当然，我们在人们的工作中看到更多 AI 经验，但我们不会遇到很多有十年 AI 经验的人。但关键在于，尽管他们有多年经验，在最近几年里，他们是否真正感兴趣、真正尝试、真正实验，并为此做好准备？最后我要说的是主动性。这一直很重要，但现在有了新的角色。因为任务和角色在演变——你在产品开发中扮演的角色，从机会识别到产品塑造再到构建。现在你可以直接构建，这非常令人兴奋和赋权。这个人是否展现出主动性？这是好奇心的另一面——用它做点什么。我寻找这一点。有时你在工作之外看到它，比如一个爱好，或者为配偶建个网站。不一定非要在工作中，但你能看出哪些人内心有火，想要行动。这就像前沿的故事——你想要那些不知道我们要去哪里、不知道答案是什么，但知道答案就在那里，并且想要起身出发的人。

I think there are still some of the same themes, but they've been adapted in the way I look for them. Curiosity would always have been on my top list. I'm looking for people who are humble, have exquisite talent, are curious, and are constantly looking to grow and better understand the circumstances of their work, their users' experience, or their collaborators. That generally makes people better within a team. What that curiosity looks like today has evolved. The critical piece is whether this person is leaning into this evolution or revolution with AI. It's intimidating and overwhelming—you think you're on top of it one day, and then tomorrow there's a new model, a new tool, a new possibility. I don't expect every person we meet to have it figured out, because they'd be outdated as soon as they thought they were on top of it. But they demonstrate genuine interest and curiosity. Going back to what I said earlier, the work at Stripe is so much more complex because it's about what our users are experiencing, how they're using the technology, how it's shaping their business, how we're providing for them, and how we're building those tools. Somebody who takes great interest in this technology is probably more interested in what users are going through and more likely to shape these things. AI product thinking is different—it's a non-deterministic product. You have to embrace ambiguity at a whole new level and see it as a great opportunity to shape your own work and output. We need to see that. Certainly, we're seeing more AI experience in people's work, but we won't encounter many people who have been doing AI for 10 years. But do they demonstrate that despite their years of experience, in the most recent years they are genuinely interested, genuinely trying, genuinely experimenting, and ready for that? The last thing I would say is agency. That has always been important but has a new role. Because tasks and roles are evolving—the part you play in product development, from opportunity identification to product shaping to building something. The fact that you can just build now is so exciting and empowering. Does that person demonstrate agency? It's the other side of curiosity—doing something with it. I look for that. Sometimes you see it outside of work, like a hobby or building a website for their spouse. It doesn't have to be in their work, but you can see who these people are that have a fire under their belly and just want to go. It feels like stories of being on the frontier—you want those people who don't know where we're going or what the answer is, but they know it's out there and they want to get up and go.

让我们想象一下这个假设的候选人。他们拥有好奇心和主动性这些无形特质。他们准备好行动了。也许我们可以再次快进到年终反思问题，只针对这个人。

Let's imagine this hypothetical candidate, right? They have the intangibles of curiosity, agency. They show up ready to go. Maybe we can fast forward again to this end-of-year reflection question only pointed at this person.

我很好奇，你在 Stripe 看到的那些表现非常出色的个人贡献者身上，有哪些最好的行为或特质是你希望能在今年剩下的 10 个月里影响和塑造这位新候选人的？

I'm curious, what are some of the best behaviors or traits that you see in the IC's at Stripe that are really thriving that you would then hope kind of rub off and shape this new candidate over the course of the remaining 10 months this year?

是的。比如，我之前提到的 Proto Dash 这个工具，它最初就是一位同事的创意——他叫 Owen，他意识到我们有一个入门门槛：AI 能帮我们更快地做事，但难点在于每个人都需要熟悉这些工具，大家的知识水平不同，而且每次都得从头开始。所以他想，“我可以解决这个问题”。他花了很多时间——可能每周好几个晚上——做出了这个东西，然后说，“嘿，我做了这个，你觉得怎么样？”大家一看，“哦，这真的很有用。”然后他继续迭代，不断推出新版本，就这样带着我们前进。另一个例子是我们团队的内容设计师 Chris。他注意到，我们服务的平台型客户——比如 Shopify 这样的巨头，它们内部还有子业务，非常复杂——他们的需求与单一实体企业不同。Chris 和团队发现，我们的产品在很多地方让这些客户更难找到信息、组织工作，体验似乎不是围绕他们设计的，而是针对单一实体。于是他们制定了一个策略，提出了新想法，做了原型，并推动实施。所以你说得完全对，这可以是自下而上的。好主意可以来自任何地方。我认为关键点是：你有了一个好主意，你看到了一个问题，就像看到地上有垃圾，你捡起来，然后思考如何长期改善这个问题，让更多人受益，以及如何激发行动。所以，到 2026 年底，我认为我们所有人都能更好地发现问题并采取行动，主动用新想法提升周围人的抱负，找到更好的解决方案。

Yeah. Well, like you know, I was talking about this thing Proto Dash that we have like that was one guy's baby like his idea um you know and he Owen recognized that we had like a barrier to entry like okay AI can help us make things faster but the hard part is you know everybody's got to get acquainted with the tools and like people have different knowledge and then they have to like start from scratch every time and so he's like I can fix this and you know when he fixed it I don't it was probably nights a week at I don't you know all sort combination of things but he was like hey I made this thing what do you what do you think and you know like oh this is really useful and and he's like continued to like evolve it and make new versions of it and so he's like he is pulling us ahead and then you know another example of there's a content designer on our team Chris who's like you know what the way that our like we we serve platforms and you know there these behemoths of businesses that are rather you know can be quite complex you know so if you think about like the Shopify is the world, right? Like they have um businesses within businesses and we provide tools to help you know those businesses grow. Their needs from Stripe can be different than a business that is you know sole solely one entity. And so, you know, he and the team recognized that like there were a number of places across our product where we're making it harder on them to find their information and to organize the work and it didn't feel like it was centered around their experience um and that like the experience was built for a a a singular entity. And so like they put together a strategy and a new idea and prototype things and and put that forth. And so you are totally right when you said like you know it can be bottoms up. Good ideas can come from anywhere. I think the critical piece is that like you know you've got a good idea, you see a problem, you see a piece of trash on the floor, you pick it up and like you you think about like how do I make this problem better longer term um for more for everybody for you know and and how might I you know kind of inspire action to that. And so yes, at the end of 2026, I think we are all better equipped to be able to, you know, see a thing and do it do something about it and proactively elevate the ambition of of folks around you with new ideas for what would be a better solution.

我现在能把问题抛给你吗？我很好奇，考虑到所有这些变化，以及五年是一段很长的时间，你经历了很多市场变化和工具变化。那么，这些是如何塑造你作为领导者的表现，或者你如何思考自己实践方式的演变？

Can I point the question at you now? I guess I'm curious given all of the change and the fact that you know five years is a long time like you've you've seen a lot of even market shifts and obviously tooling shifts. So what are some of the ways that this is shaping how you show up as a leader or where you think about the ways to evolve your own practice?

嗯，我的角色在过去五年里确实发生了变化。我们的团队壮大了，公司也壮大了。我学到了很多可以做得更好的地方，也思考了哪里是我的时间最有价值的地方。当然，每个项目——无论大小——我都不需要深度参与，事实上，那可能是一种失败状态。更重要的是如何创造条件，让这个组织能够产出优秀的工作。我通常不是那个让优秀工作发生的人，而是打造那个能产出优秀工作的社区和方式。我认为我的机会在于，在转向另一种工作方式的同时——即专注于构建能产出伟大成果的系统，包括团队——不能脱离我们正在制作的东西和用户的需求。我们实际上有一种非常强烈的文化，致力于“走现场”、花时间与用户在一起。我认为每个公司都需要这样做。而且，随着公司规模变大或产品变得更复杂——以我们为例，我永远不会成为财富 50 强公司的 CFO，也不会在支付团队或运营平台——我不会像在 Lyft 工作时那样深入了解用户的体验，那时我每天可以搭 Lyft 去办公室。所以，花时间与用户在一起，深入产品并实际试用，然后设身处地为他们着想，这非常重要。所以我确实在思考如何实际增加我在这方面的参与度？有时这些工具是很好的方式，可以更好地模拟产品体验，更好地理解运营大型企业是什么感觉，以及我的业务如何随时间演变，这将如何塑造我的 Stripe 体验。

Well, my role has definitely evolved over the 5 years that I've been here. You know our team has grown, our company has grown. I've learned a lot of things that you know I could do better and thought about where you know where is my time most valuable you know certainly every little project we do every big project we do I don't need to be you know intimately involved and in fact that might be a failure state um and it's more about how do I help put the conditions in place where this is an organization where great work gets done I am not often the the right person to make the great work happen it's more of the actually craft crafting the community that does that and and the way that we do that. I think the opportunity I have is like while trying to shift to that other way of work where you know I I focus on uh building the system that does the great things and you know that includes the team is not losing touch with what are we making and what are our users needing. uh we actually have a pretty intense culture of commitment to uh this idea of walking the store, spending time with users. You know, it's something that I think every company needs to do. And I think as companies grow larger or your products get more complex or in our case is like I will never be a CFO of a Fortune50. I will never be on the you know the payments team or running a platform. like I won't know as intimately what our users experience as I might, you know, when I worked at Lyft and I could take a lift to, you know, to the office that day. And so spending time with users, getting into the product and actually trying it and then putting yourself in their shoes is so important. So I I do think about like how do I just actually increase my participation in that? And sometimes these tools are a really great way of um better, you know, mimicking the product experience and better understanding what it would feel like to be uh running a large enterprise and seeing my business evolve over time and how that's going to shape my Stripe experience.

我喜欢这个回答。因为每次我和处于你这种位置的领导者交谈时，都会有一种压力，要帮助团队跨过一座桥，进入一种完全不同的工作方式——完全不同的工具和能力。很容易把这一点本身当作目标，而它其实只是实现目标的手段。

I like that. That's your answer. Because every time I talk to a leader that's in your position, there's some pressure to help this team cross the bridge onto honestly a completely different way of working. Totally different types of tools and abilities and it's very easy to kind of narrow in on that as the objective when that is very much so just the means to the end.

嗯，另一部分是，很容易只是忙忙碌碌，谈论这些工具有多重要，但却脱离实际。我也在用 Proto Dash 制作产品版本。我的版本会比那些整天思考和设计的设计师做得更好吗？绝对不会。但我能更好地理解他们经历了什么，以及制作一个东西需要什么。亲自了解这些工具至关重要。我绝对会在周末自己动手，用 vibe coding 做自己的网站，这样我就能知道那是什么感觉。确实很难抽出时间去玩、去制作、去领导，同时还要处理所有邮件和 Slack 消息。当然，当然。但我确实认为，这是了解当今工作现实的重要部分，如果我与今天的感受保持联系，我会成为一个更好的领导者。

Well, and I think the other part is it's really easy to just be busy and you know talk about how important these tools are but like be out of touch. I am also using proto dash to you know make versions of the product and you know are mine going to be better than you know the the designers that are thinking and doing that all day no definitely not but like will I have a lot better understanding of like what they're going through and what it takes to like make something. It's vital that I, you know, get to know these tools firsthand and, you know, absolutely I'm like, you know, making my own, you know, vibe coding my own websites on the weekend so that like I, you know, know what that's like. It is definitely hard to take the time to, you know, play and make and and lead and check all the emails and all the slacks and for sure. For sure. But I I do think that that is an important part of knowing the reality of work these days and will make you know me a better leader if I am in touch with what you know today feels like.

是的。因为大多数达到你这种位置的人，都是靠在一线使用我们熟悉的工具打拼出来的，但现在一切都变了。你没有这些工具的经验可以借鉴，当然，一些高层次的原则是相同的，但……

Yeah. I mean cuz most people that get to where you're at do so on the back of being in the trenches and using the tools that we're all familiar with and yet now everything has kind of changed. like you don't have that track record with these tools to draw from, you know, and obviously there's like the highle principles that are the same, but

我可能仍然比团队里大多数人更常打开 Photoshop。我对这个工具太熟悉了。

I still probably open Photoshop up more than people on my team do. I know this tool so well.

我敬佩这一点。

I respect it.

我尊重这一点。嗯，Katie，感谢你来做客。我非常欣赏你们所做的一切，以及你作为领导者、为整个设计社区做出贡献和塑造的人。所以，感谢你抽出时间，带我们简单了解今天的工作以及 Stripe 的最新动态。

I respect it. Well, Katie, thanks for coming on. Just a big fan of everything that you all do and who you are as a leader and someone just contributing and shaping the design community as a whole. So, I appreciate you taking the time and giving us a little tour of all the work today and what's happening at Stripe.

当然。

Absolutely.

在你走之前，我想花一分钟介绍一下我最喜欢的产品，因为我经常被问到我的技术栈是什么。Framer 是我建网站的工具，Gen 是我做研究的方式，Granola 是我在评审时记笔记的工具，Jitter 是我制作设计动画的工具，Lovable 是我用代码实现创意的工具，Mobin 是我寻找设计灵感的地方，Paper 是我像创意人一样设计的工具，而 Raycast 是我每一步的快捷方式。我精心挑选了这些公司，这样我就能全职做这些节目了。所以，支持这个节目的首要方式就是去看看它们。你可以在 dive.comclub/partners 找到完整列表。

Before I let you go, I want to take just one minute to run you through my favorite products because I'm constantly asked what's in my stack. Framer is how I build websites. Gen is how I do research. Granola is how I take notes during crit. Jitter is how I animate my designs. Lovable is how I build my ideas in code. Mobin is how I find design inspiration. Paper is how I design like a creative. And Raycast is my shortcut every step of the way. Now, I've hand selected these companies so that I can do these episodes full-time. So, by far the number one way to support the show is to check them out. You can find the full list at dive.comclub/partners.