Jony Ive 谈 iPod 二十周年与可穿戴设备的转型

我一直很高兴能和 Jony 交谈。在设计界，他当然要么是神谕，要么是神，他的项目——无论是作为 Apple 首席设计官，还是如今作为设计团体 LoveFrom 的创始人——都令人屏息期待，并激起一种敬畏。他也以极度注重隐私、鲜少发声而闻名，这更增添了他的神秘感。但对他的朋友们来说——我很自豪能算作其中之一——Jony 拥有如此的温暖、慷慨和智慧。我想说，他是一位人文主义者，与他交谈是一种享受，他是一位出色的父亲，也是他非凡的妻子 Heather 的挚爱丈夫，他关心人，就像他关心自己设计的非凡之物一样。他创造的产品——iPhone、Apple Watch——我们都熟知这份清单，它们之所以出色，正是因为它们具有人性化的尺度，以及直观的简洁与纯粹，让人感觉不可或缺。它们是工具，但在这一点上，它们更像是我们忙碌生活的自然补充。当然，我们谁也不知道没有它们该怎么办。Jony 离开 Apple 已经两年了。我知道我们也很兴奋地想知道他的生活和事业在 LoveFrom 的转折，LoveFrom 不仅与 Apple 合作，还与法拉利和 Airbnb 等品牌合作。而且由于 LoveFrom 的许多工作都围绕气候变化展开，我特别渴望听到他对此的看法。请和我一起欢迎，Jony Ive 爵士。Jony，很高兴在 WIRED 大会上再次见到你。我想距离我们上次在 WIRED 大会上交谈已经大约四年了。而过去的几周对你来说标志着几个重要的周年纪念日。所以，今天我想问你其中一些。首先，20 年前，iPod 发布了。你职业生涯的大部分时间都在创造我们握在手中或放在桌上的设备。然后你转向了像 Apple Watch 这样的可穿戴设备。向可穿戴设备转变的最大挑战是什么，这些设备到底会走向何方？

I am always so pleased to talk to Jony. He is of course to the design world, either an oracle, or a God, someone whose projects, once as chief design officer for Apple, now, as the founder of the design collective LoveFrom, a breathlessly awaited and inspire a kind of awe. He's also famously private and rarely heard from which only adds to his mystique. To his friends though and I am so proud to count myself as one of them, Jony has such warmth and generosity and intelligence. He is, I'd say a humanist, a delight to talk to, a wonderful father, and loving husband to his extraordinary wife, Heather, someone who cares about people as much as he cares about the extraordinary things that he designs. The products he's made, the iPhone, the Apple Watch, we all know the list by now are brilliant, precisely because they have a human scale, and an intuitive simplicity and purity, that make them feel essential. They're tools, but at this point they feel more like natural complements to the busy lives that we lead. And of course, none of us know what we would do without them. So it's been two years since Jony left Apple. And I know that we're also excited to hear about the turns his life and career have taken with LoveFrom, which collaborates not only with Apple, but with brands like Ferrari and Airbnb. And as so much of LoveFrom's work revolves around climate change, I'm especially eager to hear his thoughts on this. Please join me in welcoming, Sir Jony Ive. Jony, nice to see you again back at a WIRED conference. I think it's about four years since we talked last, well, at a WIRED conference. And these past few weeks have marked several, big anniversaries for you. And so, today I wanted to ask you about some of them. For starters, 20 years ago, iPod was launched. You spent most of your career creating devices we hold in our hands or on our desk. And then you moved to devices, we wear like the Apple Watch. What was the biggest challenge in the shift to wearables, and where on earth are all these devices gonna from here?

嗯，这确实是一段，我记不清有哪几周能像这样，充满了重要的周年纪念日，让我思考过去。这些不是那种非常礼貌、温和的回忆，而是，我认为相当沉重的。iPod，我很难真正理解它。真的是 20 年了。我认为 iPod 标志着 Apple 一个非常崭新且重要的篇章的开始，或者说，是前 iPod 时代的 Apple 电脑。所以直到那时，Apple 制造的是通用计算设备。而计算机的力量之一，我认为它独特而特别的地方，在于它能够通用。而我认为 iPod 真正标志的，是开始创造更具体的产品和设备。它发生在一个我认为充满非凡机遇和需求的时代。所以，有一些技术上的便利条件出现了，比如在小物理空间中存储大量数据。但我认为需求在于，几乎存在一种关于音乐价值的生存性问题。这是 20 年前，当时人们意识到他们不必为音乐付费。所以我认为那是做某件事、创造某件相当重要之事的背景或环境。而且我认为，iPod 真正代表了创新且出色的硬件、软件和服务的结合。从设计角度来看，我们认为机会令人兴奋、引人注目，而且这似乎很重要。所以，从设计角度来看，你知道，20 年前，消费电子产品往往是塑料制品，它们真的代表了……我的意思是，它们在形态上往往相当随意。而我们真诚地、诚实地感到，音乐具有某种深刻的重要性。所以我们想开发一种设计，以某种方式承认那种庄重感，这不是另一件随意的消费电子产品。所以我认为这始于首先将其视为一个单一系统。所以，你知道，耳机，我们考虑它们作为同一产品的一部分，作为实际的播放设备。我们开发了一种新的材料调色板，从双射塑料到激光边缘的抛光不锈钢。我们不仅在材料上做了大量工作，而且在颜色上也做了大量工作。我的意思是，现在事后看来，耳机是白色的似乎很明显。我记得 20 年前，那种震惊和抵制，比如，你为什么要引起人们对这些耳机的注意，我将其视为小白旗，它们代表了系统中唯一可见的部分。所以，我的意思是，另一件事是，我们想尝试创造一种如此独特的设计，以至于它不需要正面有标志和名称，这是闻所未闻的。20 年前在消费电子产品中，你无法避免看到制造商标志和公司名称的呼喊。而且，我认为发生的事情，这种情况偶尔发生，不经常，但有时，一个设计可以呈现出一种势头，它呈现出一种文化上的，我不知道，重力和意义，我们开始听到它被称为标志性。但这确实标志着，我认为，从通用目的转向更具体功能、更具体目标用户的开始。所以它是一个个人设备，我的意思是，我们开始看到人们佩戴我们的产品。

Well, it's certainly been, I can't quite remember a few weeks, that have been quite so loaded in terms of, important anniversaries that have given me, to think about the past. These haven't been those sort of dreadfully polite, gentle reminiscences, that these have been, I think really fairly loaded. The iPod, I struggle to really get my head around that. It is truly 20 years. I think iPod marked the beginning of a very new and important chapter, for Apple, or as it was pre-iPod Apple computer. So up until that point in time, Apple made general purpose computing devices. And one of the powers, I think one of the things that was so unique and special I think about the computer was, its ability to be general purpose. And I think what the iPod really marked was the beginning of creating, far more specific products and devices. Now it happened at a time I think of extraordinary, I think, both opportunity and need. So, there were a number of technological affordances that sort of presented themselves, in terms of storing lots of data in small physical spaces. But I think the need was that there was almost this sort of existential question, about the value of music. This is 20 years ago, when people realized they didn't have to pay for music. And so I think that was a context or a backdrop, for doing something, creating something that was quite important. And I think, the iPod, really represents that marriage of, I think, innovative and great hardware, software and services. And from a design perspective, we thought the opportunities were, I think, exciting, compelling, but also, this seemed important. And so, from a design point of view, the context back, you know, 20 years ago, consumer electronics tended to be plastic objects that were really represented. I know, I mean, they tended to be fairly sort of arbitrary in terms of their form. And we genuinely, we honestly felt that there was something so profoundly important about music. And so we wanted to develop a design, that somehow acknowledged that gravitas, that this was not another piece of you know, random consumer electronics. And so I think that started with first of all treating it as a single system. So, you know, the headphones were, you know, we thought about them in terms of being part of the same product, being the actual player device. We developed a new sort of palette of materials that range from double shop plastic but to polished stainless steel that was laser edge. We did a ton of work on not only the materials but also just on the color. I mean, now it seems obvious, with the benefit of hindsight it seems obvious, to, you know, that they're headphones would be white. I remember 20 years ago, the sort of shock and resistance to, you know, why would you possibly, call attention to these headphones, that where I saw is like these little white flags, that spoke to, you know, the one visible part of the system. So, I mean, the other thing I think was that, we wanted to try and create a design, that was so distinctive, that it didn't require a logo, and a name on the front, which is unheard of. 20 years ago in consumer electronics, you couldn't move for, you know, shouting about, you know, logo and the company that made it. And, I think what happened, and this happens occasionally, it doesn't happen very often but sometimes, a design can assume as you know, a sort of a momentum where, it assumes a sort of a cultural, I don't know, gravity and significance, and what we started to hear about it referred to as, as an icon. But this did mark, I think the beginning of moving away from what was general purpose, to something that was more specific in what it did, and more specific in who it did it for. So it was a personal device, that was, I mean, we started to see people wearing our products.

我总是记得关于标志和图标的想法。我总是记得第一次去 Apple 你那不可思议的总部拜访你。你当时坚持说不应该有商店，你不想有商店，但你说你意识到实际上每个人都想买那个带 Apple 标志的咖啡杯。那么你最后对商店做了什么？你最后有没有开？

I always remember thinking about logos and icons. I always remember the first time I came to visit you in your incredible headquarters at Apple. And you were adamant, that there shouldn't be a shop, that you didn't want to have a shop, but that you said that you had realized that actually everybody wanted to buy, that coffee mug with the Apple logo. So what did you ever do about the shop? Did you have it in the end or not?

不，我们开了。我的意思是，Apple Park 实际上有一个很棒的访客中心。作为访客中心的一部分，你可以买到带有 Apple 标志的杯子。

No, we do. I mean, Apple Park, there is actually a fantastic visitor center. And as part of the visitor center, you can buy your mugs with the Apple logo on.

是的，但我似乎记得你当时非常非常反对。所以，显然那是 20 年前了。如果我们展望 20 年后，Jony，你认为可穿戴设备会是什么样子？你认为它们的未来是什么？

Yeah but I seem to remember you were very, very against it. So, obviously that was 20 years ago. If we look forward to 20 years from now, Jony, what do you think wearable devices will be? What do you think the future is for them?

嗯，我认为真正重要的是，我的意思是，在很多方面，我认为 Apple 的旅程始于 70 年代，通过个人电脑让极其强大的技术变得个人化。我认为那条轨迹，那段旅程，从那时就开始了。

Well, I think what really, I mean in many ways, I think Apple's journey began, in the '70s to make, what was incredibly powerful technology personal, with the personal computer. And I think that trajectory, that journey, started then.

而且现在我认为，沿途有一些突出的时刻，标志着能力、技术变得更加具体、更加个人化。所以我认为 iPod 是这条旅程上一个极其重要的里程碑。我认为另一个重要的里程碑是 Apple Watch。随着技术变得更强大，同时物理上变得更小，并且能够被佩戴，简单而轻松地佩戴，产品显然不仅变得更加个人化，而且变得更加亲密。而且我认为，毫无疑问，我知道我们过去谈过这个。毫无疑问，其中一些产品将会消失在我们的皮肤之下。我想不出还有什么比内置在体内更个人化、更具体、更个体化、更亲密的东西了。但是，显然那不会是所有的产品。我的意思是，只要我们仍然是物理存在，只要我们仍然处于一个物理世界中相互联系，只要我们还有眼睛和双手，我们也会想要超越自身去联系。所以我认为将会有一类又一类的产品，虽然我认为它们会更加亲密和更加个人化，但它们会被佩戴在我们的皮肤之外。

And then now I think there are these salient moments along the way, that mark the capability, the technology becoming more specific, and more personal. So I think the iPod was a terribly important marker on that journey. I think another significant one was the Apple Watch. So as the technology becomes more powerful, but also physically becomes smaller, and that it is possible for it to be worn, worn simply and worn easily, the products become clearly not only more personal, but they become more intimate. And I think, I mean, there's no doubt. And I know you and I have talked about this in the past. Without question, some of those products will disappear beneath our skin. I can't think of anything more personal, more specific, more individual, and more intimate than things being insiders. But, that's not gonna be all of the products obviously. I mean, while we remain physical beings and while we remain, in a physical world relating to one another, while we have our eyes and our hands, we will also want to relate beyond ourselves. And so there's, I think going to be a categories and categories of products, that while I think they will be more intimate and more personal, but they will be worn, outside of our skin.

对，对。我们还聊了很多关于如何让 Apple Watch 变得更小。那是你真正面临挑战的事情。那也是我希望有一天能看到的。但是 10 年前，Jony，世界失去了你的创意伙伴史蒂夫·乔布斯，你称他为“我见过的最好奇的人”。我最近在《华尔街日报》上读到了你写给他的那篇精彩的悼文。那么，你最想念他的什么，是对话、这个人，还是创造力？

Right, right. Well, we also talked a lot about how we could make the Apple Watch smaller. That was something you were really challenged by. That's something that I would love to see one day. But 10 years ago Jony, the world lost your creative partner Steve Jobs, who you referred to as the most inquisitive human I have ever met. And I read that amazing tribute that you wrote to him recently in the Wall Street Journal. So, what do you miss most about him, the conversations, the person, the creativity?

是的，这是一个有趣的过程，我相信我们很多人都能感同身受。我想也许有点天真，我以为我对史蒂夫的感觉，当我每天想起他、思考他的时候，我以为我对他的感觉会以某种方式保持不变、稳定不变。但让我惊讶的是，当我思考他的时候，我对他的感觉，对他真正贡献的理解，已经增长并演变了。我认为这说明了多件事情。尤其是我们过去几年所经历的环境和背景。但我认为，在我自己对他的感觉和记忆的转变中，更少是关于他的成就，更少关于他过程的产物，而是越来越多地关于他如何工作，以及他在工作中的价值观和优先级。所以，正如我所说，我从未见过比史蒂夫更真正好奇、更爱追问的人。我的意思是，这些词很容易说，也可能被轻率地使用，但他不断地提问。他不被任何人的教条所定义。他有一种享受、庆祝被惊喜的感觉，即使惊喜意味着他错了，他也更感兴趣于学习，而不是正确。那只是那种爱，那种近乎孩子般的好奇，去发现和提问。但我认为，随着一些距离，我意识到，这对我影响非常大。我认为很容易认为，好奇心只是一种天生的性格特质。但在过去十年左右，我越来越意识到，如果你不想只是融入现状，或者以一大群人倾向于推动你的那种礼貌、方便的方式融入，那么需要多少意图。我越来越意识到，要真正好奇、真正提问，需要意图、决心和坚定。我认为发生的情况是，当我们在人群中时，我们倾向于谈论已知的事物，因为进行礼貌的对话更容易。我认为大多数人不喜欢对抗，他们想与他人建立某种联系。而在一个大群体中，如果你谈论的是部分的和试探性的东西，那很难做到。如果只是一个模糊、脆弱的想法，那比谈论问题要困难得多，因为我认为问题的事情是，问题从定义上是被理解的。所以当然人们想谈论他们理解的东西。所以通常问题消耗了氧气。它占据了所有的注意力。而我越来越震惊于他投入了多少精力和努力来鼓励人们舒适地谈论试探性和部分性的东西。那就是想法。他对创造性过程的天生尊重和敬畏是非凡的。我不知道，随着年龄的增长，贡献的重要性，以及围绕创造的道义责任，个人来说似乎越来越重要。所以，是的，我特别留意他的态度和思维，也许比那些可预测的成就更多。

Yeah, it's been an interesting process and I mean, I'm sure it's one that many of us can relate to. I think perhaps rather naively, I thought my sense of Steve, when I remember him and think about him which is pretty much every day. I thought my sense of him would remain somehow, inviolate and stable. And, what's surprised me, is as I think about him, my sense of him, my sense of what his contribution truly was, has grown and has evolved. And I think that's a comment on a number of things. I think not least, sort of the current situation and context that we've been living through in the last few years. But I think where I have seen this shift in my own sense and my own remembering of him, was less about his achievement, less about his, you know, the products of his process, but it's become more and more about, how he worked and the values and the priorities, that he had in his working. And so, now as I described, I've never met anybody more truly curious, more inquisitive than Steve. I mean, those are easy words and they can be used fairly glibly but he was constantly questioning. He wasn't defined by anybody else's dogma. There was this relish, this celebration of being surprised, even if the surprise actually meant that he was wrong, he was far more interested in the learning, than being right. And it was just that love, and that almost childlike wonder, of discovering and questioning. But I think, with some space I realize, and this has influenced me so very much. I think it's very easy to think. Well, you know, that can just be an innate personality trait to be curious. And, over the last sort of decade or so, I've become increasingly aware, of actually just how much intention is required, if you don't want to just fit in to, I guess the status quo or just fit in a nice, polite, convenient way, that large groups of people tend to, sort of push you towards. And I've become more and more aware of the intention, the resolve, and the determination, to be truly curious, to be truly, you know, questioning. I think what happens, is that when we're in a group of people, we tend to want to talk about what's known, because it's much easier to have a polite conversation. Most people I think don't relish confrontation and they want to establish, some sort of connection with other people. And that's very hard to do in a large group, if what you're talking about is partial and tentative. If it's just a nebulous, fragile idea, that's a much more difficult conversation, than talking about the problem, because I think the thing with problems, by definition a problem is understood. And so of course people want to talk about what they understand. And so generally the problem consumes the oxygen. It takes all of the attention. And, I am more and more struck by how much energy and effort, that he put in to encouraging people, to be comfortable talking about what's tentative and partial. And that's ideas. And his just innate respect to reverence for the creative process was extraordinary. And I don't know, the older I get, the more important, both the contribution, and I don't know, the sort of, the moral imperative around creating, you know, personally seems to be the case. And so, yeah, I am particularly mindful of just his attitudes and his thinking, perhaps more than the predictable achievements.

听你这么说，Jony，我在想，当你离开 Apple 并创立 LoveFrom 时，这些想法是否在你脑海中。我很想了解是什么让你选择了这个名字。你能告诉我们，我知道很多你不能说，但你能告诉我们更多关于公司背后的动机和人员吗？我相信你现在做的很多工作都与气候变化有关。但是，其中有多少是受到你刚才对史蒂夫的那些非凡、动人的描述的启发？它们与创建这家公司的决定有关吗？

Listening to you Jony, I'm wondering if these thoughts were in your mind when you left Apple and formed LoveFrom. And I'd love to understand what made you choose that name. And could you tell us, I know a lot of it, you can't tell us, but can you tell us more about the motivation and the people behind the company? And I believe an enormous amount of the work that you're doing now is connected to climate change. But, how much of it was spurred by all those extraordinary, moving descriptions you just gave us of Steve? Were they connected to the decision to create this company?

现在，我认为，这是个好问题。我认为，当然这总是时间问题，而不是是否问题。所以，对我来说，改变我与 Apple 关系的性质的时机感觉对了。我仍然与 Apple 的朋友们密切合作。他们是我们合作的伙伴之一。但是，是的，毫无疑问，关于名字的由来，我一直很震惊我们经常谈论我们做什么，以及我们怎么做，但我们不经常谈论为什么。而我个人，当我试图，无论是面试还是试图与某人建立某种关系感时，我总是对他们的动机感到好奇。而且，我永远不会忘记史蒂夫描述“为什么”。他说，当你制作某样东西，当你创造某样东西，并且你用心去做，用爱去做，你可能永远不会遇到将使用你所做东西的人。你可能永远不会知道他们的名字、他们的故事。你甚至可能不会和他们握手。但是，如果你以真正的关心和爱去创造，我喜欢他表达的方式，这是一种表达我们对物种的感激的方式。我只是觉得我们动机的深刻重要性，会是描述我们是谁的一个好的起点。

Now, I think, I mean, that's a great question. I think, of course it's always a question of when, not if. And so, the timing felt right for me to change the nature of my relationship with Apple. I still work very closely with my friends at Apple. They're one of the collaborators that we're working with. But yes, without a doubt, I mean, in terms of where the name came from, I was always struck by how often we talk about what we do, and how we do it, but we don't often talk about why. And I'm personally, when I'm trying to, whether it's me interviewing or it's I'm trying to establish, some sort of sense of a relationship with somebody, I'm always personally intrigued by what their motivation is. And, I will never forget Steve describing the why. And, he said that, you know, when you make something, when you create something and you do it with care, and you do it with love, you may never meet the person, that is going to use what you've made. You may never know their name, their story. You probably won't even shake their hand. But, if you create with a genuine care and love, and I love the way he expressed this, it's a way of expressing our gratitude for the species. And I just thought that the profoundly important nature of our motivation, would be a good starting place for a description of who we are.

所以 LoveFrom 这个名字的由来就是这样。我觉得这家公司很特别，因为它真的只是一群非凡创意人的温和聚集。这是一群多元的创意人。你知道，我们有设计师、建筑师、工程师、作家、数学家、音乐家、电影制作人。我觉得把我们连接在一起的，是我们或许因过去的工作而为人所知，但我认为我们真正连接和团结在一起，是因为我们相信我们最重要的工作、最重要的贡献在未来。那里有真正的热情和信念，也有对与多元创意人合作价值的真正热情和信念。

And so that's where the name LoveFrom really came from. The company, I think, is an unusual one because it really is just the gentle gathering of, I think, some extraordinary creatives. And it's a diverse group of creatives. You know, we're designers, architects, engineers, writers, mathematicians, musicians, filmmakers. The thing that seems to connect us, I think, is that we may be known by the work that we've done in the past, but I think that we are genuinely connected and united because we believe that our most important work, our most important contribution, is in the future. And there is a real passion and belief there, but also a real passion and belief in the value of collaborating with a diverse group of creatives.

我们的工作大致分为三类。其中一类是与创始人和领导者紧密合作，建立多年关系。比如 Airbnb、Apple、Amazon 集体。我们最近刚宣布了 Ferrari。但这些关系的激动人心之处在于，它们超越了单个项目，是长期的。我认为那里的价值在于，五年后正确的项目现在并不明显。所以，我一直喜欢这种与一群人建立深厚关系的背景。

Our work really sort of falls into three categories. I mean, we have one category of work where we're working very close to founders, leaders, in a sort of a multi-year relationship. So, you know, that's Airbnb, Apple, Amazon collective. We just recently announced Ferrari. But what's exciting about these relationships is they're more about a relationship that transcends individual projects but they are long-term. And I think the value there is, the right project in five years time isn't obvious right now. And so, and I've always loved, you know, that as a context which is a deep relationship with a group of people.

我们参与的第二类工作和项目纯粹是为了热爱、为了喜悦、为了相信我们能有所作为。这非常基于项目，而且极其多元。从设计城市花园系统，到与 Moncler 的朋友合作，再到与查尔斯王子殿下合作 Terra Carta。我们正在进行的项目大概有六七个，我很想聊聊这些。

The second category of work and projects that we're involved in really is purely for the love, purely for the joy, purely for the belief that we can be useful. And that's very project-based, and is incredibly diverse. I mean, it ranges from designing urban garden systems, to working with friends at, for example, Moncler. It involves us working with His Royal Highness Prince Charles on the Terra Carta. And there are sort of half a dozen projects we're working on which I would love to talk about.

惹恼那个标志。有件 Moncler 的 LoveFrom 羽绒服？

Irritating the icon. Have a LoveFrom puffer jacket from Moncler?

哦，那只是开始。我的意思是，正如你所说，带着巨大的意图，几乎无一例外，我们所有的工作都直接或间接地，几乎无一例外，都在努力为我们面临的气候变化危机做出贡献。我觉得我们组建的这个小组，我们希望能在许多不同方面有所作为，但我们对于能发挥作用感到兴奋，并加入这个显然是由众多将此作为毕生事业的人组成的多元群体。

Oh, that was just the beginning. I mean, as you said, with huge intention, almost without exception, all of our work is either very directly or indirectly, but all of our work, almost without exception, is trying to make a contribution to the crisis that we're facing relative to climate change. And I think that this little group that we've assembled, we are hoping that we can be in some way useful in a number of different ways, but we are excited about being useful, and joining what is clearly a—I've been very struck by the diverse collection of people who have made this their life's work.

所以你们是一个集体，一个集体？

So you're a collective, you're a collective?

你知道，我有一些幸运能与之共事的挚友。但这个集体从传奇人物 Peter Saville 到……但正如我所说，这其中有某种宁静或平静。你知道，我们许多人因过去的工作而为人所知，但我们更感兴趣的是我们能做什么。而且我们确实相信，我们能做得更多，尤其是如果我们一起合作。

And you know, some of my dear friends who I'm lucky enough to be working with. But the collective ranges from the legend that is Peter Saville. But as I said, there is a sort of serenity or calm in that, you know, I think many of us are known by what we have done, and we are much more interested though in what we could do. And I think we do believe that we can do so much more, particularly if we are working together.

一起，是的。嗯，我觉得过去几年真的很有趣，Jony，每个人都在重新评估他们想在生活中做什么，想为周围的人做什么。我只是，显然你在 COVID 之前就想过 LoveFrom。但 COVID 是否加速了你将工作推向世界的愿望？它是否改变了你最初创立时的价值观？我的意思是，我们有人，我记得读到八月有 250 万人辞职，只是因为他们想做完全不同的事情。显然你走在了前面，但我想知道，当我们从 COVID 中走出来时，当你开始思考你将做的所有这些非凡工作时，你心中最重要的是什么？

Together, yeah. Well, I think it's been such an interesting past couple of years, Jony, and everybody reevaluating what it is they wanna do with their lives, what they want to do for other people around them. And I'm just, obviously you thought about LoveFrom before COVID. But has COVID hastened your desire to put your work out into the world? Has it changed the values that you had in your mind when you started it? I mean, we've had people, I think I was reading that two and a half million people quit their jobs in August, just because they wanted to do something completely different. Obviously you are ahead of the curve, but I'm wondering as we emerge from COVID, what is it that's top of your mind as you start to think about all this extraordinary work that you'll be doing?

嗯，这是个很棒的问题。这是个很大的问题。我认为我们经历的过去一年半，突显了我们面临的一些相当重大的挑战。我确实长期以来一直对数字虚拟与物质有形之间的关系感兴趣。有趣的是，LoveFrom 的第一个出货产品，非常有意但也许相当令人惊讶，是一个字体。我们开发了一个字体。我们狂热地、带着如此多的关怀和爱，花了两年多时间开发这个字体，但它基于 200 多年前字体设计师 John Baskerville 开发的作品。我们设法找到了 18 世纪的原始钢冲模。我们扫描并重新绘制了所有字符。这套字体现在有超过 7000 个不同的字符、符号和一系列不同风格。但有趣的是，我认为这是对我们对过去传统和卓越的极大尊重和遵从的一个可爱评论，同时结合了对未来重要性的信念。我也认为这是对我们身体世界与那些 200 年历史的钢冲模之间挣扎和专注的一个好评论，以及一个在数字世界中在光学尺寸、字重方面无限可控的字体设计。

Now, I mean, that's a wonderful question. It's a very big question. I think the last sort of year and a half that we've lived through, I think highlights some fairly significant challenges for us. I do think I've been interested for a long time in the relationship between what is digital virtual and what is material and tangible. I mean, it's interesting the first shipping product from LoveFrom, very intentionally but perhaps rather surprisingly, is a typeface. And we developed a typeface. I mean, we've been working on this typeface fanatically and with such care and love, but for over two years, but it's a typeface based on work that a typographer John Baskerville developed over 200 years ago. And we managed to track down the original steel punches from the 1700s. And we scanned and redrew all of the characters. The type set now has over, I think it's over 7,000 distinct characters, symbols, and a range of different styles. But what's been so interesting is that I think it's a lovely comment on our huge respect and deference to the traditions and the excellence of the past, but combining that with a belief about the importance of the future. And I also think it's a nice comment on our struggles and preoccupation between the physical world, between those 200-year-old steel punches, and the design of a typeface that is also infinitely controllable in terms of varying optical sizes, weights, in the digital world.

所以，我认为最让我震惊的事情之一，我是说众多事情之一，是当我们努力理解什么是虚拟和数字、什么是物质时，随之而来的轻微困惑和当然还有焦虑。你知道，我一直像许多设计师、应用艺术家一样，热衷于研究过程。我总是花很多时间观察自己如何工作。我的意思是，在某种程度上这很自私，是为了我的理智，以便应对那些想法不来或糟糕透顶的时刻。但有一件事变得如此清晰，虽然我非常感激我们的虚拟和数字通信，但危险在于它现在在很多方面都太好了，以至于我们犯了一个可怕的错误，认为它在某种程度上是实际面对面聚会的替代品。作为一个创意人，你知道，那些非常事务性、策略性的相处方式对很多活动来说很棒。但要尝试做新的事情、创造新的事物、以不同的方式思考，这真的相当具有挑战性，不是吗？

So, I think one of the things that has so struck me, I mean, one of many, but has been the slight confusion and of course the anxiety that's consequent, as we struggle to understand what is virtual and digital and what is material. And as you know, I mean, I've always been, like I think many designers, applied artists, I've always been a keen student of process. I've always spent a lot of time looking at how I work. I mean, in some ways it's very selfish, it's for my sanity, to be able to cope with those times when ideas neither come, or they're just appalling. But one of the things that has become so clear, while I am so grateful for our virtual and digital communication, the danger is it's now so good in so many ways, that we make that dreadful mistake of thinking that it is in some way a surrogate for actually being together in person. And as a creative person, you know, those sorts of very transactional tactical ways of being together are great for a whole bunch of activities. But to try and do something new, to create something new, to think in a different way, it's really quite challenging, isn't it?

我的意思是，我认为创意过程的很大一部分，好奇和探究的重要组成，是学会真正倾听以忽略。

I mean, I think a huge part of the creative process, a big component of being curious and inquisitive, is learning to actually listen to ignore.

你刚才谈到房间里最安静的声音。

You were talking about the quietest voice in the room.

这太有趣了，我的意思是，如果你在虚拟视频通话中，试图鼓励人们倾听，而每个人都安静下来，我们会假设有音频问题。所以，只是安静下来，享受安静，倾听和思考，你知道，像这样的视频连接并不鼓励我们安静和深思。

It's so funny, I mean, if you're on a virtual video call, and you're trying to encourage people to listen, and everybody's quiet, we assume there's an audio problem. So, to just be quiet and to enjoy being quiet and to listening and to think, you know, video connections like these do not encourage us to be quiet and thoughtful.

而且我觉得，回想起来，和史蒂夫在一起最珍贵的时光，大概就是我们并肩散步的时候，彼此都没怎么说话，但我们在彼此的陪伴中思考。

And I think, going back to my recollections and thinking about Steve, some of the most important times we spent were probably on walks together when neither of us said very much, but we were thinking in proximity to each other.

是的。

Yes.

这就是想法的美妙之处，不是吗？它们可以悄然而至。以我的经验，几乎总是如此，最有力的想法都是悄然出现的，它们很脆弱，需要怀着敬畏和尊重，温柔地呵护它们成长，直到变得强大。我一直喜欢那种奇妙的落差：最终可以变得如此强大的东西，起初却是那么轻柔、那么试探性地、不完整地开始。

And that's the beauty of ideas, isn't it? That they can come very quietly. I think almost always in my experience, the most powerful ideas do occur quietly, and they are fragile, and they need to be with reverence and respect, gently cared for as they evolve to become powerful. And I've always loved that sort of strange disconnect between something that eventually can be so, so powerful, but started so gently, and in such a sort of a tentative partial way.

Jony，你是一位了不起的父亲，你有两个非常出色的儿子，这真的归功于你和 Heather。我想知道，当你想到他们将继承的世界时，你如何考虑为他们创造一个更有希望的地方？因为我知道他们的未来对你非常重要。

Jony, you are an extraordinary father, and you have the most extraordinary two boys that really accredit to you and to Heather. And I wonder, when you think of the kind of world that they're going to inherit, how do you think about making it a more hopeful place for them? Because I know their future is so important to you.

首先，谢谢你。是的，我的意思是，我希望他们长大的过程中世界能完好无损。他们两个都极富创造力。而且你知道，这种实践的一个后果是，你必须保持乐观和信念。所以他们对未来有着非常肯定和积极的态度。我想，有时候我不得不咬紧牙关，隐藏我被焦虑吞噬的程度。我尽量不让他们看到。我希望我们能找到一种方式来审视和安置我们拥有的这些非常强大的技术和工具。我希望我们能在个人生活和集体生活中为它们找到合适的位置。我认为这不是一个新的挑战。我的意思是，那些最强大的工具，我相信它们有潜力成为最有帮助的。但我们常常回顾历史，它们也可能是最具破坏性的。我认为我们目前面临的挑战之一是，我们前进得太快了。我觉得我们正在努力理解这些工具的巨大力量。我们也在努力理解责任，也许还有我们需要创建的框架，以鼓励这些工具和机会被有益地使用，并减少它们被负面使用的实例。所以，我非常受鼓舞的是，工具和机会就在那里帮助我们，只是我们的态度问题。但我确实希望，男孩们成长的世界里，能有更多一点惊喜和惊奇，少得多愤世嫉俗的教条。我希望那是一个对想法有自然热情和兴趣的世界，更多地拒绝那些伪装成事实、真理甚至有用观点的意见。但再次，我回到我们常说的那种孩子气的行为。我的意思是，我们的孩子好奇、爱探究、想学习，我们必须想办法教育他们，而不是让那种可爱的、好奇和爱探究的天性被教育磨灭掉。

Well, thank you first of all. Yeah, I mean, I hope the world is in one piece as they grow up. They're both absurdly creative. And as you know, a consequence of that practice is that you have to be optimistic and faithful. And so they have such an affirming and very positive view of the future. I think, you know, sometimes I have to bite down and keep my, you know, how consumed I am with anxiety. I try and hide that from them. I hope that there is a way that we can regard and place these very powerful technologies and tools that we have. I hope we can find the right place for them in our personal lives and in our collective lives. I think that this is not a new challenge. I mean, those tools that are the most powerful, that I believe have the potential to be the most helpful. So often we look at history, they can be the most destructive. And I think one of the challenges that we have at the moment is that we are moving so quickly. I think we are struggling to comprehend, to understand, both the tremendous power of these tools. And we are struggling to understand the responsibility, and perhaps the frameworks that we need to create, to try and encourage these tools and opportunities to be used usefully, and to try and reduce the instances of them being used in a negative way. So I think I'm hugely encouraged that the tools and opportunities are there to help us, it's just our attitudes towards them. But I do hope that the world the boys grow into, I hope there's just a little bit more surprise and wonder, and just an awful lot less cynical dogma. I hope it's a world where there is just a natural enthusiasm and interest in ideas, and there is more of a rejection of just yet another opinion masquerading as fact, or as truth, or as even as useful as an idea. But again, I go back to that behavior that we often say is childlike. And I mean, our children are curious, they're inquisitive, and they want to learn, and we've gotta figure out a way of educating, you know, not having that lovely predisposition to be curious and inquisitive educated out of them.

好吧，Jony，我相信他们的生活充满了惊喜和惊奇。我们也期待看到你从 LoveFrom 创造的所有神奇事物。我特别期待我的 Moncler 夹克，还有更多即将到来的东西。我爱你，我想你，很快再见。

Well, Jony, I'm sure that their lives are filled with surprise and wonder. And we also look forward to seeing all the magical things you're gonna create from LoveFrom. I'm especially excited about my Moncler jacket, and more things to come. And I love you, I miss you, I'll see you soon.

很快再见，Anna，满满的爱。非常感谢。

I'll see you soon Anna, lots of love. Thank you so much.