法拉利首款电动车：一场充满争议的冒险

你准备好了吗？这会是一辆有争议的车。

You're ready for this? This will be a controversial car.

这项技术太非凡了。你的问题很刁钻，是的。我们可以创造全新的东西。

This technology is so extraordinary. Your question was very tricky, yeah. We could create something completely new.

对我来说，没有创新就没有设计。你即将看到史上第一辆全电动法拉利。一辆法拉利曾说永远不会造的车。那可能是他们造过的最有争议的车，而且绝对是一次巨大的冒险。新技术和新设计将影响我们所有人，无论我们是否开法拉利。所以，我在意大利的一个秘密赛道上，在它发布前一睹为快，并与最负责的两个人交谈。苹果传奇人物乔尼·艾维，他向我展示了这辆车内部的疯狂细节。还有法拉利首席设计师弗拉维奥·曼佐尼，他告诉我他们制造它的真正原因，以及为什么它对法拉利、电动汽车、你和我都很重要。欢迎来到《重磅对话》。

For me, there is no design without innovation. You're about to see the first ever all-electric Ferrari. A car Ferrari said they'd never make. That will probably be the most controversial car they've ever made. And will definitely be a massive risk. New tech and new design that will impact all of us, whether or not we ever drive a Ferrari. So, I'm at a secret track in Italy to get a first look before it launches and talk to the two people most responsible for it. Apple legend Jony Ive, who showed me the crazy details inside this car. And Ferrari chief designer Flavio Manzoni, who told me the real reason why they made it and why it matters for Ferrari, for electric cars, and you and me. Welcome to Huge Conversation.

标志性跑车法拉利。法拉利是一个传奇。

Iconic sports car Ferrari. Ferrari is a legend.

它是世界上最强大的品牌。

It's the most powerful brand in the world.

法拉利即将发布其首款电动汽车。人们应该把法拉利 Luce 视为法拉利的未来吗？那个给我们带来触摸屏的人希望我们少碰屏幕。我的意思是，历史最终会决定这一点。你太棒了。天哪，哇。

Ferrari set to release its first-ever EV. Should people see the Ferrari Luce as the future of Ferrari? The man who brought us touchscreens wants us to touch fewer screens. I mean, history will ultimately determine that. You're fantastic. My God, wow.

这次对话不是为今年将购买法拉利的 1.4 万人准备的。不过，我希望我们能通过深入探讨的细节让他们感到愉悦。这是一场重磅对话。意思是，这是一场为成千上万真正对新科技感到兴奋、想看到未来、想参与其中、并想了解像你这样的人下的重大赌注如何影响他们生活的人准备的对话。

This conversation isn't for the 14,000 people that will buy Ferraris this year. Although, I hope that we're going to delight them with the details that we get into. This is a huge conversation. Meaning that it's a conversation for the millions of people that are really excited about new technology, that want to see the future, they want to be part of it, and they want to understand how big bets from people like yourself affect their lives.

这里让我觉得非常有趣的一点，也是我在这里的原因，是当我想到法拉利时，我会想到一种非常具体的引擎振动感。

The thing that is so interesting to me here, the reason that I am here is that when I think about a Ferrari, I think about a really specific feeling of vibration from the engine.

我会想到一种非常具体的汽车轮廓。而这辆车看起来和感觉起来都非常非常不同。事实上，当我第一次看到这辆车时，有点震惊。

I think about a really specific silhouette of a car. And this looks and feels very, very different. In fact, when I first saw this car, it was a bit of a shock.

这不仅是史上第一辆全电动法拉利，也是史上第一辆五座法拉利。这是一辆大车。我想，为什么法拉利不造一辆红色的双座跑车，配上假的引擎声，尽可能接近人们对法拉利的期待呢？但在这个节目里，我们不会轻视新技术，也不会人为炒作它。我们要做的是理解它对未来意味着什么。

It's not just the first ever all-electric Ferrari. It's also the first ever five-seat Ferrari. It's a big car. And I thought, why didn't Ferrari make a two-seater sports car in red with fake engine sound to be as similar as possible to what people expect in a Ferrari. But on this show, we don't dismiss new tech, and we don't artificially hype it, either. What we do is we want to understand what it means for the future.

头条新闻“跑车公司造跑车”本来没问题，但如果属实，可能不会太轰动。但这不是他们选择做的。这对我来说真的很有趣。故意把它做大很有趣，而且不仅仅是作为电动汽车的附加。让你的团队参与进来，在这次合作中一起工作，真的很有趣。坦白说，请我来做这次采访也很有趣。我不是汽车专家。我是一个试图向广大观众解释某些事情的人。所以，法拉利在这里做的很多事情都与法拉利以前做的不同。为什么？

The headline, "Sports car company makes sports car," would have been fine, but probably not huge if true. But that's not what they chose to do. And that's really interesting to me. Making it intentionally larger is interesting, and not in addition to it being an electric car. Bringing in your team and working together in this collaboration is really interesting. Frankly, asking me to do this interview is interesting. I'm not an automotive expert. I'm someone who's trying to explain something to a wide audience. And so, there's so much here that Ferrari is doing that is different than what Ferrari has done before. Why?

好问题，约翰尼。你先说。法拉利是一个有着永不满足的推动和探索欲望的组织。我的意思是，你知道，记住法拉利几十年来一直在制造最先进的电动机。我认为背景是推动、探索、第一次感到惊喜，我认为这是有史以来第一次，你拥有非凡的法拉利驾驶动态，如此愉悦有趣，但它不是一辆非常单一的车，你知道，它的目的是为两个人设计的跑车。它能够将这一点与更平易近人、更平等结合起来，对于一个本质上如此排外的产品来说，这是荒谬的说法，但能够将空间——不仅是体积，还有座舱内体验的通透感——与这种惊人的驾驶体验结合起来，而这只有通过使用这项技术才能实现。

Good question, Johnny. You first. Ferrari is an organization with an insatiable appetite to be pushing and exploring. I mean, you know, remember Ferrari have been building the most advanced electric motors for decades. I think the context is one to be pushing to explore to be surprised for the first time I think ever you have this combination of the extraordinary sort of Ferrari driving dynamic which is so joyful and fun but instead of it being a very singular car as in you know it's purpose it's a sports car for two people. It is being able to combine that with being much more approachable more egalitarian which is an absurd thing to say for a product that is so inherently exclusive but to be able to combine space and not just volume but the airiness of the experience inside the cabin with this amazing driving experience which could only be achieved by using this technology.

你必须从技术方法开始，然后将其转化为体现项目本质的东西。所以在这种情况下，需要一种完全跳出框框的方法。法拉利不需要这样做。由于创新程度，这是有争议且极其冒险的。没有义务感。有一种充满激情的驱动力，相信这项技术如此非凡，我们可以创造全新的东西。

You have to start from a technological approach and then translate it into something which materializes the essence of that project. So in this case it was necessary a completely out-of-the-box approach. Ferrari doesn't need to do this. This is a controversial and extremely risky because of the degree of innovation. There was no sense of obligation. There was a sense of this sort of passionate drive believing this technology is so extraordinary we could create something completely new.

我认为更广泛的背景在这里也很重要。弗拉维奥，你 2010 年加入法拉利。2011 年，时任法拉利 CEO 曾说，你永远不会看到电动法拉利。

I think the broader context is important here too. Flavio you joined Ferrari in 2010. In 2011 the CEO of Ferrari at the time said quote you will never see an electric Ferrari.

但这句话的背景是，当时世界上最受欢迎的电动汽车是日产 Leaf。特斯拉还没有推出 Model S。电动汽车占全球汽车总量的比例只是一个四舍五入的误差。而如今，全球新车销量的 25% 是电动汽车。在美国，这一比例只有 10%，自 2023 年以来一直持平。但在欧洲，这一比例约为 25%，欧盟在 2035 年后禁止销售新的内燃机汽车，尽管现在他们又收回了。最重要的是，在中国，超过一半的新车销量是电动汽车，而且增长迅速。我应该如何看待世界各地正在发生的事情，作为这次对话的一部分？

But the context of that quote is that at the time the most popular electric car in the world was the Nissan Leaf. Tesla hadn't launched the Model S yet. Electric cars as a total share of cars in the world was a rounding error. And now today, 25% of new vehicles sold globally are electric cars. In the US, it's only 10% and has been flat since 2023. But in Europe, it's around 25% and the EU banned new combustion car sales after 2035, though now they've walked that back. And biggest of all, in China, more than half of new car sales are electric cars. And that's growing fast. How should I think about what's happening around the world as part of this conversation?

好的，回到你关于当时 CEO 的评论，他还说永远不会造 SUV。法拉利永远不会造 SUV。过了一会儿，他说：“嗯，不，不，我们会造新的 Purosangue。不是典型的笨重 SUV，而是真正创新、真正体现法拉利精神的东西。多么大的挑战，不可思议。”现在，我的意思是，当时它备受批评，现在它是最畅销的。所以，对于电动版也是一样。我的意思是，这是拥抱创新和文化变革的问题。大多数公司并不真正愿意制造非凡的新东西。所以，真正代表技术的创新一步。所以，如果你看看其他公司，我的意思是，他们的方法非常保守。所以，有时他们看起来不像电动汽车。所以，问题是如何做出明确的声明。像这样的车可以创造完全不同的东西。

Okay, coming back to your comment regarding the CEO of the time, he also said that never an SUV. Ferrari will never make an SUV. Then after a while, he said, "Hm, no, no, we will do new Purosangue. Not a typical bulky SUV, but something really innovative and really embodying the spirit of Ferrari. What a challenge, incredible." Now, I mean, at the time it was so criticized, now it's the best seller. So, it's the same for the electric one. I mean, it's a matter of embracing the innovation and also the cultural change. Most of the companies are not really willing to make something extraordinarily new. So, really representing the innovative step of the technology. So, if you look at the others, I mean, the approach is very conservative. So, sometimes they don't look electric cars. So, the question was how to make a clear statement. A car like this can create something totally different.

你知道，无论你在这里制造什么，作为史上第一辆全电动法拉利，你会得到很多兴奋，也会得到很多批评。这将是一辆有争议的车。而且这不仅仅关乎法拉利，对吧？这关乎我们试图以某种方式带入未来的所有技术。当一级方程式从 V8 转向 V6 混合动力时，人们都疯了。他们批评 F80 的声音。

You know together that no matter what you make here with the first ever all-electric Ferrari, you're going to get a lot of excitement and you're going to get a lot of critique. This will be a controversial car. And it's not just about Ferrari, right? It's about all technology that we try to bring into the future in some way. People lost their minds when Formula 1 went from the V8 to the V6 hybrid. They criticized the sound of the F80.

我们讨论的其实并不是某些具体方面的性能，对吧？最宽容地说，V6 比 V8 或 V12 更快。你觉得我们真正在争论的是什么？

What we're talking about is not actually performance in some specific ways, right? The V6 is faster than the V8 or the V12 in the most generous way possible. What do you feel is the real debate that we're having here?

这对我们来说并不新鲜。批评是过程的一部分，因为当你想创新时，这很正常，尤其是在这样一个时代——抱歉，但我也不得不带点批判性，因为问题在于我们生活在一个怀旧情绪非常高涨的时代。每个人都看着过去，而不是未来。所以，这意味着我们作为设计师的工作非常困难。尽管如此，对我来说，没有创新就没有设计。所以，这也意味着要冒险。比如，就拿最新的超级跑车 F80 来说，每个人都抱怨它没有 12 缸发动机。我的意思是，但那辆车令人难以置信的性能，用传统的 12 缸发动机是不可能实现的。

It's not new for us. Critics are part of the process because when you want to innovate, it's normal, especially in an era like this where, sorry, but I have to be a little bit critical as well, because the problem is that we are living in an era where the nostalgic approach is very high. Everybody is looking at the past, not at the future. So that means our job as designers is very difficult. Nevertheless, for me there is no design without innovation. So that means also to risk. It's typical, for example, on the F80, the latest supercar, everybody was complaining because it has not a 12-cylinder engine. I mean, but the incredible performance of that car was impossible with a traditional 12-cylinder engine.

电动法拉利这个概念本身就很有争议性。一款设计非常创新的新车发布时，第一反应是“天哪，这不对，这不是法拉利。”每个人都是专家。但几个月后，当他们消化、吸收了这个创新，它就成了这个持续的、可以说是通往未来的旅程的一部分。

The concept itself of an electric Ferrari is polarizing. The launch of a new car with a very innovative design, the first reaction is "Oh my god, this is not correct. It is not a Ferrari." Everybody is an expert. But then, after some months, when they digest, they metabolize the innovation, it becomes part of this continuous, let's say, journey towards the future.

你对这些时刻并不陌生。四五十年来，我一直对人们面对新事物时的反应和感受非常着迷。而且，正如我们所知，每个人都有观点，但通常人们在试图理解新事物时，会试图参照熟悉的东西。我已经非常习惯了，而且我也能大致预测：好吧，这会是人们感兴趣的地方，这会是人们感到挑战的地方。

You're no stranger to these moments. For 40, 50 years, I've been so intrigued by how people react and how they feel faced with something new. And as we know, everyone has an opinion, but normally what people do in trying to understand what's new, you try to reference what's familiar. I've been very used to that, and I've been able to sort of predict, okay, this will be what people will be intrigued by, this is what people will be challenged by.

我想，正如你所说，这里有一个巨大的挑战，因为作为一个法拉利爱好者，内燃机以及与之相关的一切，无论是噪音还是振动，都是过去的重要组成部分。我相信它也会是未来的重要组成部分。所以，我们并不是在拿走什么，而是在增加一个新的选择，这个选择在某些方面是明确无误、无可争辩地更好，而在其他方面，你会从缺失的角度去理解它们。

I think there was, as you said, there is this huge challenge here because, as a Ferrari lover, and the combustion engine and all that's associated with it, whether it's the noise, the vibration, that has been a substantial part of the past. I'm sure it will be a substantial part of the future. So, it's not that we're taking away something, but we're adding a new choice, which, in some dimensions, is unambiguously, incontrovertibly better, and in other dimensions, you will understand them in terms of what is lacking.

也许我们这么做是鲁莽的，因为我们知道，当然，在某些人眼里，我们注定要失败。但我认为我们也喜欢这些荒谬的挑战，我们非常努力地尝试探索其他方式，让你能够直接地、发自内心地、身体力行地与车建立联系，你知道，取代内燃机发出噪音的那种方式。

Perhaps it was reckless of us to do that, knowing that we were, of course, in some people's eyes, destined for failure. But I think we also love these absurd challenges, and we've worked very hard to try and explore other ways that you can connect directly, viscerally, and physically, you know, in lieu of there being a combustion engine making a noise.

对你们来说真是个挑战，因为这是你们设计的第一款车，对吧？

And what a challenge for you guys because it was the first car ever designed by you, right?

是的。这说明对公司来说，找到一种完全不同的方法有多么重要。

Yeah. It shows how important it was for the company to find another totally different approach.

从另一个角度来看。法拉利在 2025 年交付了，是多少？13,640 辆车。其中 81% 卖给了已经拥有法拉利的人。是的。48% 卖给了拥有不止一辆的人。为什么这辆车对不会买它的人的生活很重要？

Coming from another perspective. Ferrari delivered, what is it? 13,640 cars in 2025. It's 81% of those were to people that already owned Ferraris. Yeah. 48% to people who own more than one. Why does this car matter for the lives of the people that won't buy it?

我认为任何制造出来的东西都会产生影响，无论你是否拥有它。我认为这是困扰我的事情之一，那就是被过度渲染的东西，我认为不值得渲染，因为资源是宝贵的。而且我认为，要真诚而认真地制造一些东西，努力推动事物向前发展，不是为了新而新，不是为了不同而不同，而是为了更好。我显然同意，这本质上是一个专属产品，但这种思维并不专属。在我过去的工作中，我很幸运地看到了思想和想法所能产生的间接影响，有时应用不当，有时却出人意料地美好和可爱。所以，我确实认为设计师有责任认识到，我个人真的非常认真地对待这件事，对人类负有真正的责任，因为不仅仅是你的客户才是相关方。永远不要忘记这类操作的文化重要性。

I think anything that's made has an impact whether you happen to own it or not. I think that's one of the things that bothers me, which is so much is made, I don't think deserves to be made because resources are precious. And I think to try to make something sincerely and earnestly that is trying to move things on, not to be new, not to be different, but to be better. I obviously agree that this is inherently an exclusive product, but the thinking isn't exclusive. I've been lucky enough in my past work to see the sort of vicarious impact that thinking and ideas can have, sometimes poorly applied, sometimes surprising and wonderful and lovely. So, I do think it's a responsibility of designers to realize, I personally really take this seriously, have a genuine responsibility for humanity in that it's not just your customer that is the relevant party. Never forget the cultural importance of this type of operation.

我也想到了实验的勇气。埃里希·弗洛姆有一句很美的话，他说创造力需要放弃确定性的勇气。我认为这是对这个项目的一个很好的定义。

I think also about the courage of experimenting. There is a beautiful sentence of Eric Fromm who said creativity requires the courage to let go of certainties. I think this is a beautiful definition of this project.

我也想到了实验的勇气。埃里希·弗洛姆有一句很美的话，他说创造力需要放弃确定性的勇气。我认为这是对这个项目的一个很好的定义。

Okay, so Johnny said reckless, Flavio said a challenge. I still want to know why it really matters. Is it that Ferrari is going to make millions of new people buy electric cars? No, or at least not directly. They wouldn't tell me exactly what this car will cost except that it's in the high end of their range. So I would guess $650,000. So this car isn't going to change anything through volume sales. And on paper it's in the same neighborhood as electric sports cars that already exist. So four electric motors, one per wheel, 1,035 horsepower, zero to 100 kilometers per hour in 2.5 seconds, top speed of about 310 kilometers per hour or around 193 miles per hour, and an estimated top range of about 530 kilometers. But they are trying to reach a new market for Ferrari. And most importantly, they're trying to set the bar for what an electric car can feel like. One of the biggest bets they're making here is in the interior. Its design goes against what many car companies are doing today. So time to get inside with the man who designed it.

给我看看你创造的魔法。我们上车吧。我很想看看它是什么样的。好的，我从另一边上车。

Show me the magic that you created. Let's get into the car. I would love to see what it's like. All right, I'm going to get in on the other side.

我和你坐在一起，手里拿着我的 iPhone。当它问世时，它确实深刻地改变了人们对手机能做什么的理解。它改变了我们的生活方式。现在我和你坐在一起，坐在你设计的电动法拉利里。你能给我展示一下这种体验，并告诉我你希望这如何改变人们对电动汽车的看法吗？

I'm sitting with you and holding in my hand my iPhone. When this came out, it really meaningfully changed people's understanding of what a phone could be. It changed the way that we live our lives. And I'm sitting with you now in the electric Ferrari that you designed. Could you show me the experience that this has and tell me about how you hope that this changes what people think of in electric cars?

我很乐意。我的意思是，有一点要说明的是，出于某种原因，仅仅因为动力源是电动的，就有人假设界面应该是数字化的。这是一个巨大的跳跃。而且我认为这是自以为是的。当你习惯了进入法拉利，转动钥匙，你知道这是一件重要事情的开始。你通过听到的和感觉到的知道这一点，而且非常清楚。这就是其中一件事，作为一个热爱 V12 内燃机声音的人，试图真正清晰而诚实地面对这个挑战，是意义重大的。所以，我们试图，你知道，我们的目标是找到一些方式，让我们从内心深处、从身体上与车建立联系。

I would love to. I mean, one point to make is that for some reason, just because the power source is electric, there is some assumption that the interface should be digital. And that's a huge leap. And I think it's presumptuous. When you're used to getting into a Ferrari and you turn the key, you know that it's the beginning of something significant. And you know that by what you hear and what you feel, and it's very clear. And that was one of the things, as somebody who loves the sound of a V12 combustion engine, trying to really be very clear and honest about that as a challenge was significant. So, we tried to have, you know, our goal was to try and figure out ways of viscerally and physically connecting us to the car.

所以，这只是一种新方式，就像我们知道手机曾有一种方式一样。这就是……我的意思是，这正是我着迷的地方：我们人类如何与技术连接？

And so, this is just a new way, just as we know there was one way with the phone. This is a... I mean, that's my fascination: how do we, as humanity, connect to technology?

所以，这把钥匙非常简单，背面是皮革，侧面是不锈钢，正面是玻璃。现在，看黄色消失并转移到驾驶选择上。

So, the key, which is very simple, has leather on the back, stainless steel on the side, and a glass front. Now, watch the yellow disappear and transfer to the drive select.

嗯。我注意到的一件事是，你并没有模仿我驾驶燃油车的体验。也就是说，当你插入钥匙时，你的选择当然是添加假声音。添加假的……其他车会这样做吗？其他车确实会添加。你本可以重现并模仿坐在燃油版法拉利里的体验。

Mhm. One of the things that I'm noticing here is that you are not mimicking my experience of a combustion car. Meaning, your option when you put in the key was, of course, to add fake sound. Add fake... What other cars do it? Other cars do add that. You could have recreated the experience and mimic the experience of being in a combustion engine Ferrari.

是的。所以，显而易见的事情，或者说容易、懒惰的做法，就是模仿人们熟悉的东西。我认为消费者和用户非常聪明。我认为他们非常有辨别力。我认为他们重视真实性。他们知道什么是假的。

Yes. So, the obvious thing, or certainly the easy, lazy thing to do, would be to mimic what people are familiar with. I think consumers and users are really smart. I think they're really discerning. And I think that they value authenticity. They know when it's fake.

这套仪表和方向盘，就是你驾驶时真正需要的一切。我们非常清楚，这完全是关于输出。方向盘，显然，完全是关于输入。现在，你可以看到方向盘上有这些模块，它们有一系列不同的触觉开关。你不仅仅用眼睛看。当然，你还用手指感知。

This collection of instruments and the steering wheel, that's all you actually need to drive. We were very clear that's all about output. The steering wheel, obviously, is all about input. Now, the steering wheel, you can see, has these modules that have a whole range of different tactile switches. You don't just see with your eyes. You sense, of course, with your fingers.

所以，这叫做 manettino。这是法拉利发明的一个旋钮，真正决定了驾驶动态。所以，你可以看到……所以，这是设置为驾驶模式。现在，如果我把它设置为运动模式，你会看到这里的颜色是橙色。嗯。然后旋钮，一切都变成橙色。但随后它又变回去了。

So, this is called a manettino. This is a dial that Ferrari invented and really determines the driving dynamics. So, you can see... So, this is set to drive. Now, if I set it to sport, you'll watch the color here is orange. Mhm. And the dial, everything changes to orange. But then it goes back.

然后它轻轻退回到接近白色。所以，你得到功能的最大对比度。所以，这是另一件事。这里没有一样东西不是关于实用性和功能的。

And then it gently recedes to being closer to white. So, you get the maximum contrast of function. So, that's the other thing. There's nothing here that isn't about utility and function.

我们对此感到兴奋的一点是，因为这不仅仅是关于驾驶，它也可以只供你的乘客或副驾驶使用。所以，你可以调整控制面板位置的想法。

One of the things we were excited about with this was because this wasn't all about driving, it could be just for your passenger or your co-pilot. So, the idea that you can adjust the position of the control panel.

但我觉得好的地方是，这个把手……你以为它是一个把手，但我认为比它是一个把手更重要的是，它正是你使用它的方式。

But the nice thing, I think, is that the handle... You think it's a handle, but I think more importantly than it being a handle, it's exactly in the way you're using it.

啊，我自然地那样做了。我毫不犹豫地那样做了。

Ah, I did that naturally. I did that without thinking about it.

你没有读任何说明。我的意思是，即使我在使用我的 Apple Watch，我……

You didn't read any instructions. I mean, even when I'm using my Apple Watch, I...

看你的拇指。

Look at your thumb.

我把它放在这里，然后我移动它。

I put this here, and then I move it.

你在一次采访中说，人们因为愚蠢的设计而死亡。你能告诉我你是什么意思吗？

You said in an interview that people are dying because of dumb design. Can you tell me what you meant by that?

所以，例如，多点触控对于手机来说很棒，因为当你使用手机时，你正看着手机。我相信多点触控不应该出现在汽车里，因为如果你必须做基本的事情，它必然要求你不看你要去的地方，而是看着显示屏。

So, for example, multi-touch is wonderful for a phone because when you're using the phone, you're looking at the phone. Multi-touch shouldn't be in a car, I believe, because if you're having to do basic things, it requires, by definition, that you're not looking where you're going, and you're looking at a display.

所以，我认为，你知道，虽然我有幸参与了多点触控的开发，它是一项了不起的技术，能够实现一些非常新的用户界面，但需要适当、深思熟虑和谨慎地使用。

So, I think, you know, while I was lucky enough to be involved in the development of multi-touch, it's a fabulous technology that enables some very new user interfaces, but that need to be appropriate and thoughtfully and carefully used.

头条新闻会说：“带给我们触摸屏的人希望我们少触摸屏幕。”但是，我在这里看到的实际上是相当不同的东西。我面前有一个屏幕。

The headlines will say, "The man who brought us touch screens wants us to touch fewer screens." But, what I'm seeing here is actually something pretty different. There is a screen sitting in front of me.

我们不是以这种非常二元的方式对待事物。我们不是说：“这是数字输出和数字输入，就这样。”我们做的是结合把手、掌托、物理拨动开关和旋转旋钮。

We're not treating things in this sort of very binary way. We're not saying, "Here's a digital output and a digital input, and that's it." What we're doing is we're combining handles and palm rests and physical toggle switches and rotary dials.

你知道，这是我过去 40 年来的重点：我们如何将人类与我们制造的工具连接起来？它可以是快乐、赋能和提升的，也可以是沮丧、恼人、疏离和孤立的。对我来说，那个交互点，那个连接点，本质上就是物理的、数字的、关于材料的温度和重量的混合。有太多东西，太多元素定义了那个连接点。

You know, that's been my focus over the last 40 years: how do we connect humanity to the tools that we make? And it can be one that is joyful and enabling and elevating, or it can be one that is frustrating and irritating and disconnecting and isolating. And to me, that point of interaction, that point of connection, is by definition a mixture of what is physical, what is digital, what is about the temperature and weight of materials. There are so many things, so many elements that define that point of connection.

嗯。哦，好的。等等，我给你带了东西。所以，当你之前提到你开始这个设计时，你创建了四本书。据我所知，这些书到目前为止一直是保密的。我来这里的路上找不到这些书的任何内容，但我现在随身带了一本。这是你为法拉利制作的秘密书籍之一，我想给你看一些东西。

Mhm. Oh, okay. Wait, I brought something for you. So, when you mentioned earlier that when you were starting this design, you created four books. These books, as far as I know, have been secret up until now. I could not find on my way here any of the inside of these books, but I have one with me right now. This is one of the secret books that you made for Ferrari, and I want to show you something.

你写道：“我们常常想到电子石英革命时期的瑞士钟表业。很难不看到像百达翡丽这样有价值的历史品牌之间的相似之处，它们幸存下来并发展壮大，主要是因为保留了传统的机械机芯。”

You said, "We often think of the Swiss watch industry during the electric quartz revolution. It's hard not to see parallels between valuable historic brands like Patek Philippe, who survived and grew into the transition, primarily because it retained its traditional mechanical movements."

“如果立法规定百达翡丽必须将其整个产品线过渡到石英，那么由此产生的挑战似乎与法拉利面临的过渡相似。虽然我们意识到这一过渡的巨大性，但我们知道，追求有充分根据的、宏大的、雄心勃勃的想法将带来最强大、最引人注目和最深刻成功的成果。”你觉得你实现了你最初的目标吗？

"If it had been legislated that Patek Philippe had to transition its entire product line to quartz, the resulting challenge would appear similar to the transition Ferrari is facing. While we're mindful of the enormity of this transition, we know that pursuing well-founded, big, ambitious ideas will enable the most powerful, compelling, and profoundly successful outcome." Do you feel like you accomplished what you set out to do?

嗯，我想……我的意思是，历史最终会决定这一点。我认为我们确实感到自信的是，这次合作非常令人振奋，并确立了原则，提醒我们所有人要努力向前推进需要什么，不是为了不同，不是为了新奇，而是为了尝试以新的方式解决问题，尝试以新的方式将我们与技术连接起来。

Well, I think... I mean, history will ultimately determine that. I think what we do feel confident in is that this collaboration has been so invigorating and has established principles and reminded us all of what it takes to try to push forward, not to be different, not to be new, but to try to solve problems in new ways, to try to connect us to technology in a new way.

坐在车里，我发现自己像个孩子一样玩着所有的按钮和开关，我一直在想它与我预期的有多么不同，尤其是从 Jony Ive 那里。你已经设计了至少 25 亿人使用的东西。人们每天花几个小时盯着你设计的屏幕。你对我们使用它们的方式有什么看法？你从观察人们迭代和使用你构建的东西中学到了什么？

Sitting in the car, I found myself just playing like a kid with all the buttons and the switches, and I just kept thinking about how different it was than what I expected, especially from Jony Ive. You've designed things already that at least 2.5 billion people use. People spend hours a day staring at the screens that you designed. What do you think of the way that we've used them? And what have you learned from the experience of watching people iterate on and use the things that you built?

有很多非常明确的教训需要吸取。我的意思是，任何强大的工具都有产生不可预测和意外好坏的潜力。情况一直如此。所以，坦率地说，你知道，我确实感到，尽管我们所做的一些工作有不可预测的后果，有些好，有些坏，即使它们不是有意的，我仍然认为你需要负责任。我确实感受到那种责任，这推动了我已经做出和正在做出的决定，关于我未来如何努力做出贡献。

There are very clear lessons to be learned. I mean, any powerful tool has potential for unpredictable and unexpected good and bad. And that's always been the case. And so I feel, candidly, you know, I do feel even though there are unpredicted consequences of some of the work that we've done, some good, some bad, even though they were not intended, I still think you need to be responsible. And I do feel that responsibility, and that drives the decisions that I have made and I am making for how I can try and contribute in the future.

但这不是新现象，你知道，任何强大的技术或工具都会在很多方面给我们带来惊喜，我想。

But that's not a new phenomenon, you know, any powerful technology or tool will surprise us in a lot of different ways, I think.

是的。

Yeah.

当我开始接触这个故事时，我问的第一个问题是，如果只有几千人最终会拥有这样一辆车，那为什么它对数百万人很重要？我想到的一个答案是，如果法拉利和 Jony Ive 及其团队为电动汽车能成为什么样创造了一个愿景，也许其中一些设计灵感会渗透到整个汽车生态系统中。我在这里看到了一些这样的迹象。

When I came into this story, when I asked that first question of why does this matter for millions of people if a couple thousand will end up owning a car like this, one of the answers that I thought was well, if Ferrari and if Jony Ive and his team create a vision for what an electric car can be, maybe some of that design inspiration will trickle into the rest of the car ecosystem. And I am seeing some of that here.

是的。

Yes.

你觉得你所做的这些具体设计选择，主要会以什么方式影响更大的图景？

What do you feel like is the main way that these specific design choices that you make will affect a bigger picture?

不，这是思考这个项目的可爱方式，那就是我在过去 40 年里看到，在一个领域的创新可以产生巨大的影响。所以，我理解这一点，我也理解，你知道，其中的机制。但是，我认为你说得完全正确。这些产品如此复杂，远远超出一个人。我想我真的希望人们会想：“哇，如果法拉利凭借其非凡的专业知识和历史，能够投入如此多的时间和精力进行合作，一次不太可能的合作，我希望那在某种程度上，你知道，看起来意义重大。”

No, that's a lovely way of thinking about this project, which is I've seen over the last 40 years that innovating in one space can have an enormous impact. So, I understand that and I understand, you know, the mechanisms of that. But, I think you're exactly right. What these products are so complex. They're way beyond one person. I guess I really hope that people think, "Wow, if Ferrari with its extraordinary expertise and history can invest so much time and energy into a collaboration, an unlikely collaboration, I hope that that's somehow, you know, seems significant."

如果坐在这里的不是我，而是史蒂夫·乔布斯，你向他描述你对这辆车的雄心、愿景以及你如何将其变为现实，你觉得他会说什么？

If instead of me sitting here, it were Steve Jobs, and you were describing to him the ambition that you have for this car and the vision and how you brought it to life, what do you think he would say?

这真的很难，因为作为如此亲密的朋友，我不得不忍受其他人推断他的想法和动机。所以，我不会冒昧地说他会，是的，他会如何回应。但是，我学到的东西有太多要归功于他。我知道如果不是因为他，我不会坐在这里。

It's really hard because as such close friends, I've had to sort of endure other people inferring his thinking and his motivations. So, I wouldn't presume to say what he would, yeah, how he would respond. But, I owe so much of what I've learned to him. And I know I wouldn't be sat here if it wasn't for him.

这些都是很棒的问题。谢谢你这么说。真的很有启发性，是的，非常感谢。

Those were wonderful questions. Thank you for saying that. Really provocative and, yeah, thank you so much.

谢谢。

Thank you.

我觉得我带着新的视角离开这辆车。说这类似于如果它被立法，感觉就像是对世界正在经历的电动汽车巨变的承认。无论有没有法拉利，这都在全球发生，而他们希望参与其中。为了做到这一点，他们下了大赌注。我们应该鼓励公司这样做。你知道，在今天很多产品发布都是对新事物的微小改进的世界里，我觉得当一家公司下大赌注时，令人耳目一新。所以，这就是我要和 Flavio 讨论的。首先，为什么一开始要引入 Jony Ive 和他的团队？

I feel like I'm stepping away from this car with a new perspective. Saying it was similar to if it had been legislated feels like an acknowledgement of the massive change that the world is going through in electric cars. This is happening worldwide with or without Ferrari, and they want it to be with. And to do that, they've made this big bet. And we should encourage companies to do that. You know, in a world where a lot of product launches today are micro improvements on the new thing. Like, I find it refreshing when a company takes a big bet. So, that's what I'm going to talk to Flavio about. Starting with why bring in Jony Ive and his team in the first place?

这是我的大问题之一，因为当然你以在法拉利内部创建内部设计团队而闻名。是的。但为了这个大赌注，你引入了一群新人。我很好奇这对你来说感觉如何，以及你为什么选择这样做。

This was one of my big questions, because of course you're famous for creating an in-house design team inside Ferrari. Yes. But for this big bet, you bring in a new group of people. I'm curious how that felt for you and why you chose to do that.

一开始当然有点震惊，因为对我来说，车型之间的一致性，以及即使有一些激进步骤的进化理念，因为进化也意味着以某种方式重新定义品牌的设计标准。否则，如果我们不创新，我们什么也不做。但是我们的总裁、我们的主席 John Elkann 的想法是做出真正颠覆性的东西。所以，有必要有另一支笔。不同的。例如，创造一个新的胶囊系列。是的。这是保证最高水平的原创性和思想新鲜度的一种方式。我的意思是，他们在旧金山独处了大约 8 个月，让他们有时间构思一个非常连贯的概念。

It was a little bit shocking at the beginning, of course, because for me, the consistency across the models, and also the idea of an evolution even with some radical steps, because evolution also means to somehow redefine the design criteria of a brand. Otherwise, if we don't innovate, we don't do anything. But the idea of our president, our chairman, John Elkann, was to make something really disruptive. So, it was necessary to have another pencil. Different. To create, for example, a new capsule collection. Yeah. And this is a way to guarantee the highest level of originality and also freshness of the ideas. I mean, they were alone for about 8 months in San Francisco to let them the time to conceive a very coherent concept.

然后我想，有一个时刻你第一次看到那个第一个结果。那对你来说是什么样的？当你第一次看到它时，最让你兴奋的是什么？你反对哪些感觉不像法拉利的东西？

And then there is, I imagine, a moment where you see that first result for the first time. What was that like for you? What were the things that most excited you when you saw it for the first time? And what were the things that you pushed back against that didn't feel like Ferrari?

看到他们能够构思出我甚至无法想象的东西，真的很令人兴奋。所以，是彻底不同的东西。当然，这是交叉融合的问题，你知道？他们来自另一种思维方式。他们不是做汽车的，他们做的是其他类型的产品。他们能够发展自己的愿景，这也关乎具体的设计标准。例如，有一些形式，一些抱歉。如果你想解释，你可以用意大利语词。

It was really exciting to see how they were able to conceive something that I couldn't even imagine. So, something radically different. And of course, this is a matter of cross-fertilization, you know? They come from another mindset. They worked not on cars, they worked on other types of products. They were able to develop their own vision that is also about specific design criteria. For example, there are some forms, some sorry. You can use the Italian word if you want to explain it.

是英语。

It's English.

我们称之为方圆。它是一个圆角方形。好吗？我认为这不仅在内饰而且在外部都是一个相当常见的元素。好吗？例如，前端、后端都是基于这个非常简单的想法设计的。所以，一切都基于纯粹、简单，一种物体的整体效果。而且，我想说他们也能够利用一个新平台，举个例子。所以，电池组在下面，使得车内的所有空间都非常自由。

That we call square-circle. It's a rounded square. Okay? Which I would say is a quite present element not only on the interior but also on the exterior. Okay? For example, the front end, the rear end are really designed based on this very simple idea. So, everything is based on purity, simplicity, a kind of monolithic effect of the objects. And also, I would say they were also able to take the advantage of a new platform for just an example. So, with a pack of the batteries underneath that makes all the space in aboard very free.

为了让人们理解这一点，从设计角度来看，内燃机需要中央通道，这意味着车内可用的空间可能更少。而电动汽车电池在下面，因此有更多空间。

Just so people understand this, this is the difference from a design perspective of a combustion engine which would require a tunnel in the center, meaning less space to play with inside the car perhaps. Versus an electric car which has the battery underneath and therefore has more space.

就像白板。你可以做任何你想做的事。这是一个你可以随心所欲管理的自由空间。所以这为例如制造第一辆五座法拉利打开了可能性。是的。所以实际上这很震惊，因为我的意思是他们没有使用任何与这项工作相关的规则。尽管如此，我必须承认他们做了真正非凡的事情，完全不同的东西。如此出格。

It's like tabula rasa. You can do whatever you want. It's a free space that you can manage as you wish. So this opened the possibility to, for example, make a car the first Ferrari with five seats. Yeah. So actually it was shocking because I mean they didn't use any kind of rule connected to this job. Nevertheless, I have to admit they did something really extraordinary, something completely different. So out of the box.

对不仅仅是法拉利车主来说非常重要的一件事，因为这个故事关乎我们中更多人可能永远不会拥有的，是坐在法拉利里面的感觉。是振动，是活力，是原始感，这是我在准备这次采访时交谈过的许多专家使用的词。你如何在电动汽车中传达这种感觉？

One of the things that is so important to not just people who own Ferraris because this story is about many more of us may never is the feeling of being inside a Ferrari. It's the vibration, it's the aliveness, it's the rawness is the word that a lot of the experts that I spoke to in preparation for this interview used. How do you convey that feeling in an electric car?

工程师们所做的工作真的令人震惊，难以置信，因为当你驾驶法拉利时，你和机器是一体的。所以你必须用你的身体、用一切来感受这辆车。所以问题是如何将这种体验转化为真正法拉利的东西。所以工程师们致力于引入新的拨片、换挡，以完全不同的方式真正吸引驾驶员。所以尽管技术完全不同，推进方式不同，这非常是一种法拉利体验。所以，这很重要。

The work done by the engineers is really striking, unbelievable because when you drive a Ferrari, you and the machine you are a single thing. So you had to feel the car with your body, with everything. So the question was how to transform this experience into something which is really Ferrari. So the engineers worked all on introducing the new paddles, gear shifts that really engage the driver in a completely different way. So although the technology is totally different, the propulsion is different, it is very much a Ferrari experience. So, this was important.

顺便说一句，你的问题非常棘手。是的，哪一个？它有什么棘手的？

By the way, your question was very tricky. Yeah, which one? What feels tricky about it?

我的震惊。现在，告诉我。

My shock. Now, tell me.

跟我说说哪里棘手。这很有意思。哪里棘手？

Tell me what feels tricky. It's interesting. What feels tricky about it?

不，不。我不知道你是不是想挑衅。请别担心。别担心。没事的。

No, no. I didn't know if you wanted to provoke. Please, don't worry. Don't worry. It's okay.

你刚才说的有一点让我印象深刻，就是它在设计概念上类似于胶囊系列。而胶囊系列有一个特别之处，我想——我在试图解释这个的时候，正对着世界上最著名的设计师之一——我对此的理解是，胶囊系列是一个相对安全、与品牌其他部分有所隔离的实验空间。

One of the things that struck me that you just said is that it's similar in design concept to a capsule collection. And one of the things that is special about a capsule collection, I think—I'm speaking to one of the most famous designers in the world when I'm trying to explain this—my perception of this is that a capsule collection is a fairly safe, somewhat isolated space from the rest of a brand to experiment.

人们应该把 Ferrari Luce 视为法拉利的未来吗？

Should people see the Ferrari Luce as the future of Ferrari?

是的。当然。这是我们用真实产品以及概念车来构想未来的一部分。我们从来不会把一辆车的设计特征用到另一辆车上。这不是我们的做法。通常，我们不喜欢似曾相识的效果。法拉利设计或法拉利身份的辨识度建立在更深刻的方面。所以，我不会说这辆车的所有设计特征都会用于未来产品的开发。不，我们希望这辆车保持非常独特的身份。但这就是我们的做法。

Yes. Of course. It's part of our idea of envisioning the future with real products and also, for example, concept cars. We never use design features of one car for another car. This is not our approach. Normally, we don't like the déjà vu effect. The recognition of a Ferrari design or a Ferrari identity is based on much more profound aspects. So, I wouldn't say that all the design features of this car will be then used for developed future products. No, we would like to keep this car with a very specific identity. But this is something that we do.

这是一个……

That's a...

是的，这也回答了我作为一个外行进来时带来的问题，那就是你本可以造一辆全电动的双座车，看起来就像我脑海中想象的法拉利。但我听到你说的是，那实际上根本不是法拉利的做事方式。制造一辆视觉上相似或使用另一辆车相同设计特征的新车，根本不是你一开始就会考虑的事情。

Yes, and it answers a question that as a layperson I came in with, which is you could have, for example, built a two-seater that is all electric that looks like I'm imagining Ferrari looks in my mind's eye. But what I'm hearing you saying is that that's actually simply not how Ferrari does things. That the idea of making a new car that is visually similar or is using the same design features of another car is just not what you would have ever considered doing in the first place.

确实。

True.

这帮助我理解了这里的区别。

That helps me understand the difference here.

是的，你说也许它本可以是双座的。但电池的技术水平还不足以达到性能巅峰，也无法让我们随心所欲地使用电池的续航，明白吗？

Yeah, you said maybe it could have been a two-seater. But the level of technology for the batteries is not enough to reach the peak of performance and also having the possibility to use the autonomy of the battery as we want, okay?

我能在这里问你一下吗？我不是想打断你的思路，但你说到这一点时，我不明白你追求的性能到底是什么，因为很多电动汽车可以比……更快。

Can I ask you there? I don't mean to interrupt the flow, but when you say that, I don't understand what the performance is necessarily that you're looking for, because many electric cars that use electricity can go faster than...

好问题。

Good question.

那我该怎么理解这里的性能呢？

So how do I think about performance here?

我之前解释得对。当我们谈论性能时，我们考虑的是多维性能。当你测试一辆电动汽车时，通常每个人都测试纵向速度。是的。那只是性能的一个维度。但当你想要享受驾驶像法拉利这样的超级跑车的乐趣时，你必须考虑操控、横向加速度、刹车，还有悬挂，所有这些让体验如此引人入胜、如此发自肺腑的东西，明白吗？所以，纵向速度很无聊。我从来不会仅仅因为速度而喜欢开电动汽车。

I explain that correctly before. When we talk about performance, we think in terms of multi-dimensional performances. When you test an electric car, normally everybody tests the longitudinal speed. Yeah. Which is just a single dimension of the performance. But when you want to have fun driving a supercar like a Ferrari, you have to think about the handling, about the lateral acceleration, about the brakes, and also the suspensions, everything that makes this experience so engaging and so visceral as well, okay? So, longitudinal speed is boring. I never enjoy driving an electric car just because of the speed.

所以，通常当我们设计另一种类型的法拉利时，在空气动力学方面，主要目标是下压力，明白吗？车必须贴在地面上。举个例子，F80，这是最新的超级跑车，它的外形能在 250 公里/小时时产生 1,050 公斤的下压力。就像上面压着另一辆车，明白吗？电动汽车的方法不同。主要目标是风阻系数。参数完全不同。它必须像一个固体物体，非常纯粹。车身侧面必须几乎连续、几乎平坦。甚至车轮也必须是平的。

So, normally, when we design another type of Ferrari, in terms of aerodynamics, the main objective is the downforce, okay? The car must be stuck on the ground. Just an example, F80, which is the latest supercar, has a form which is able to generate 1,050 kg at 250 km/h. So, it's like having another car on top, okay? The approach for an electric car is different. The main objective is the drag coefficient. The parameters are totally different. It must be like a kind of solid object, very pure. The body side must be almost continuous, almost flat. Even the wheels must be flat.

为什么电动汽车不需要那么担心下压力，但需要担心空气动力学？

Why is it that in an electric car you don't need to worry about the downforce as much, but you do need to worry about the aerodynamics?

因为我们也需要考虑效率。例如，电池的效率，这是根本性的，明白吗？有一个漂亮的动画。如果你愿意，我给你看。你可以在这里看到。我们可以把这个物体的形状分成几个部分。玻璃车舱，那是一种非常符合空气动力学的楔形。

Because we also need to think about efficiency. For example, the efficiency of the battery, which is fundamental, okay? There is a beautiful animation. If you wish, I show you. You can see here. We can divide the shape of this object into parts. The glasshouse, that is a very aerodynamic kind of wedge shape.

嗯。

Yep.

明白吗？这是全新的东西。前面没有发动机，不像普通汽车，这让工程师团队能够尽可能降低这个点。好的。然后还有另一个物体，就是这种护盾。它变成了一个外骨骼，产生两个翼，一个在前面，另一个在后面。

Okay? And this is something totally new. The fact that there is no engine in the front, like in a normal car, allowed the team of engineers to lower this point as much as we can. Okay. And then there is another object which is this kind of shield. It becomes like an exoskeleton that generates two wings, one in the front, the other one on the rear.

空气就这样流动。

As the air goes like that.

是的。所以体积的构造非常纯粹、非常简单。但它基于以风阻为主要目标的原则。

Yes. So the construction of the volume is very pure, very simple. But it's based on that principle of drag as the main objective.

听你谈论不同的设计约束，并回到你一开始说的，使用新技术时创造的设计机会，真的很有趣。

It's really interesting to hear you talk about the different design constraints and to bring it back to what you said at the beginning, the design opportunities that are created when you're using a new technology.

问题在于将约束转化为机会的能力。

The question is the capability of transforming constraints into opportunities.

我想如果 10 年后我还记得这次采访，并把它应用到我的生活中，而我不设计汽车，我会努力记住的是这个想法：约束可以成为创造性的机会。这对我来说非常丰富。

I think if I remember this interview in 10 years and apply it to my life and I don't design cars, the thing that I will try to remember is this idea that constraints can be creative opportunities. That feels very rich to me.

但别把这话告诉工程师，因为他们会想：“啊，不，但你说过那个。不，那意味着这对你来说也不难。不，你必须接受它，并把它变成美好的东西。”

But don't tell that to the engineers because they think, "Ah, no, but you said that. No, so that means also this is not difficult for you. No, you have to accept it and transform it into a beautiful thing now."

是的，确实。有时候它们真的很吓人。

Yeah, definitely. Sometimes they are really scary.

嗯。

Yeah.

我有一个问题，我担心问你，因为我觉得它可能会显得有点对立，而那不是我想要的。当我了解法拉利的历史时，我会读到恩佐·法拉利的这些引言，他会说这样的话：“当你买一辆法拉利时，你买的是发动机。我把其余部分免费送给你。”所以问题是，如果你要告诉恩佐·法拉利关于 Ferrari Luce 的设计，你会说什么？

I have a question that I was worried to ask you because I thought it would come across as antagonistic in a way and that's not what I want to do. When I was learning about the history of Ferrari, I would read these quotes from Enzo Ferrari and he would say things like, "When you buy a Ferrari, you buy the engine. I give you the rest for free." And so the question is, if you were telling Enzo Ferrari about the design of the Ferrari Luce, what would you say?

如果你看法拉利的历史，以及法拉利还在世时开发的汽车，它们都是创新和过程的惊人宣言。想想看，最后一批法拉利之一是 F40，它是一个不可思议的偶像。如果你看那辆车的外观，它与过去完全不同。所以，如果你想到法拉利，你会想象一个非常圆润、浪漫的形状。F40 恰恰相反，有着棱角分明、技术感的形状。所以，这只是一个例子，因为归根结底，恩佐的方法总是关于愿景和进步。我们必须始终建立一种联系，一种介于过去和现在之间的桥梁，但也是过去和未来之间的桥梁。古斯塔夫·马勒说过：“传统不是崇拜灰烬。传统是保存火种。”

If you look at the history of Ferrari and also the cars that were developed until Ferrari was still alive, they are an incredible statement of innovation and process. Think about that one of the last Ferraris was the F40, which is an incredible icon. If you look at the design of the car, it's something totally radically different from the past. So, if you think about Ferrari, you imagine a very curvy and romantic shape. The F40 is exactly the opposite with this angular and technical shape. So, it's just an example because in the end the approach of Enzo was always about vision and about progress. We have always to create a link, a kind of bridge between past and present, but past and future. Gustav Mahler said, "Tradition is not the worship of ashes. Tradition is the preservation of fire."

多么不可思议的一句话。

What an incredible sentence.

传统很重要，品牌的 DNA 很重要，但问题在于你如何能在保留火种的同时进行演变。

The legacy is important, the DNA of the brand is important, but the question is how you are able to evolve with this idea of the preservation of fire.

我不知道这辆车会成功还是失败，但我知道无论哪种结果我们都赢了。如果他们失败了，那是一个我们都能从中学习的修正。如果他们成功了——这正是我们在节目中花最多时间思考的——我们会看到他们做的事情被整个行业复制，影响我们未来十年或更久购买的汽车。

I don't know if this car will succeed or fail, but I do know that we win either way. If they fail, it's a correction that we all get to learn from. If they succeed, and that's what we spend the most time thinking about on this show, we'll see things that they did copied across the industry affecting cars that we buy for the next decade or more.

我们喜欢在大型对话的结尾思考，50 年后，很久以后，人们会如何看待这一刻。当我死后，我希望留下一些故事，我最大的希望是它们能塑造世界，并让关于未来的对话朝着更乐观的方向发展。当人们审视你的全部作品时，我想和你们每个人花点时间。你希望这些作品的影响是什么？

What we like to do at the end of huge conversations is think about how people will see this moment in 50 years, in a long time. When I'm dead, I will hopefully leave behind a bunch of stories that I my greatest hope is that they will have shaped the world and the conversation about the future in a more optimistic direction. When people look at your body of work, and I want to take a moment with each of you. What do you hope that the impact of that work is?

我喜欢这个视角。我总是思考未来，思考我们的作品在未来会被如何看待。伟大的建筑师勒·柯布西耶说过一句很美的话：“什么是传统？传统是所有创新不间断的链条。永远不要忘记这一点。”所以，有意义的是进行创新的操作。如果没有一定程度的创新，对我来说，那就不叫设计，而是别的东西。

I mean, I like this perspective. I always think about the future. How our outputs will be seen in the future. There is a beautiful sentence of the great architect Le Corbusier who said, "What's tradition? Tradition is the uninterrupted chain of all the innovations. Never forget that." So, what makes sense is to make operations that are innovative. So, if there is not a certain level of innovation, I mean, for me this is not design. It's something else.

在很多方面，我一直把自己看作一个工具制造者。所以，我一直很清楚，最让我快乐的是提升人类，努力做出贡献，努力提供推动物种前进的工具。

In many ways, I think I've always seen myself as a tool maker. And so, I've always been really clear on what makes me the most happy is to be elevating humanity, trying to make a contribution, trying to provide tools that move the species on.

工业设计，从定义上讲，是一个非常年轻的职业。我认为早期的理想非常美好，它们高尚而无私。很明显，你把自己视为服务者。这就是我真正看待和理解自己在这个实践、这个活动中的位置的方式。这听起来几乎是无害的，我是说，这些是容易说的词。但要做一些解决问题的事情——从定义上讲，它主要由问题而非想法来定义——这需要巨大的决心、大量的勇气、毅力和优秀的合作者。是的，我认为这定义了我，当然，这也是我希望被记住的。

Industrial design, by definition, is a very young profession. And the early ideals, I think, were really beautiful. They were noble and selfless. And it was clear that you saw yourself in service. And that's how I truly have seen and understand my place in this practice, in this activity. And that sounds almost benign. I mean, those are easy words. But to do something that solves problems, which is by definition mainly defined by the problem, not the idea. To do that takes a huge resolve and a lot of courage and perseverance and great collaborators. And yeah, I think that defines certainly that's what I would hope to be remembered for.

非常感谢你抽出时间，我真的很感激。

Thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it.

谢谢，再见。

Thank you. Bye.

你太棒了。天哪，她太不可思议了，因为你传递了你的感受，你情感投入的感受，那是最好的。

You are fantastic. My God, she is incredible because she you transfer your feeling, your feeling of emotional involvement, which is the best.

能得到你的认可，我很感激。

Appreciate it coming from you.

我明白你为什么这么出名了。

I understand why you are so famous.

我要把这个写进我的日记里。

I'm going to write that down in my journal.

这辆车还有两个部分法拉利尚未公布：它的声音和实际驾驶感受。但我听过它的声音，也开过它。所以如果你想看这些，敬请期待。如果你想支持更多乐观的科技故事，请订阅。

There are two more parts of this car that Ferrari hasn't released yet, how it sounds and how it actually drives. But I've heard it and I've driven it. So if you want to see that, coming soon. And if you want to support more optimistic science and tech stories, subscribe.