吉图·帕特尔：为 AI 时代打造产品

今天我的嘉宾是 Jeetu Patel，Cisco 的总裁兼首席产品官。如果你听过他讲话，就知道他对 AI 有很多话要说，而且他说得很有信念。他相信我们正处于人类与技术互动方式根本性变革的开端。在 Cisco，他负责庞大的产品组合背后的产品战略，涵盖网络、安全、计算、芯片、光学等众多领域。所以技术方面有很多可谈的。但他成功背后的故事比他的简历更有趣。他在孟买长大，19 岁来到美国。他并不是带着一个完美构建的计划来成为硅谷最有影响力的技术高管之一。他的道路包括艰难的处境，以及那些在他迫切需要时给予他机会的人。有一个贯穿他一生的理念让我印象深刻：人才可能无处不在，但机会并非如此。他亲身知道当有人看到你的潜力并给你一个平台时会发生什么。而今天，他处于一个能够给别人这种机会的位置。所以，是的，我们谈论 Cisco 和 AI，以及支持它所需的巨大基础设施。但我真正想了解的是他的故事。他离开印度的故事，与母亲的关系，改变他人生轨迹的教授，以及他成为的男人和领导者。所以让我们来点私人的。

Today my guest is Jeetu Patel, president and chief product officer of Cisco. If you listen to him speak, you know he has a lot to say about AI, and he says it with conviction. He believes that we're at the beginning of a fundamental transformation in how humans interact with technology. And at Cisco, he's responsible for the product strategy behind an enormous portfolio spanning networking, security, computing, silicon, optics, and much more. So there's plenty to talk about in terms of technology. But the story behind his success is even more interesting than his resume. He grew up in Bombay and came to America at 19. He didn't arrive with some perfectly constructed plan to become one of Silicon Valley's most influential technology executives. His path included difficult circumstances, people who gave him opportunities at moments when he desperately needed them. And there's an idea that runs through his life that really stayed with me. Talent may be everywhere, but opportunity isn't. He knows firsthand what can happen when someone sees potential in you and gives you a platform. And today he's in a position to give that opportunity to other people. So yes, we talk about Cisco and AI, the enormous infrastructure required to support it. But what I really wanted to understand was his story. His story of leaving India, the relationship with his mother, the professor who changed the trajectory of his life, and the man and the leader he became. So let's get a little personal.

第一次。

Take one.

好的，Jeetu。欢迎来到 A Bit Personal。

Okay, Jeetu. Welcome to A Bit Personal.

很高兴来到这里。很高兴见到你。

It's great to be here. Good to see you.

我非常兴奋。这个播客对我来说会有点不同，因为到目前为止我请的大多数人我都认识很多年，有时几十年。而我们是新朋友。所以我能看到

I'm very excited. This podcast is going to be a little bit different for me because most of the people that I've had on so far I've known for many years, sometimes decades. And we're new friends. So I get to see

我们刚认识。

We just met.

没错。所以我能实时看到你的一切展开。我们正在

That's right. So I get to see all of who you are unravel in real time. We're getting

在公众场合互相了解。

to know each other in public.

没错。完全暴露。

That's right. Fully exposed.

是的，有点吓人。

Yeah, kind of scary.

不管怎样，当你看你的故事时，它实际上是一个美丽的美国成功故事，对吧？移民在逃离困境后来到美国，在大学期间经济困难，找到一份实习生的工作，成为总裁，现在最终成为世界上最重要的科技公司之一的总裁兼首席产品官。太棒了。

Anyway, so when you look at your story, it's actually a beautiful American success story, right? Immigrant comes to the US after fleeing difficult circumstances, struggles financially through university, gets a job as an intern, becomes a president, and now ends up as the president and chief product officer of one of the most important technology companies in the world. Amazing.

美国是一个伟大的国家。

America is a great country.

是的，所以你知道，当你看这样的职业生涯时，大多数时候从外面看它像是有意为之。那么，它是有意的吗？你有一个宏大的战略计划吗？还是更多是偶然的？

Yeah, so you know, when you look at a career like that, most of the time from the outside it looks intentional. So, was it intentional? Did you have this big grandiose strategic plan? Or was it more serendipitous?

我不认为确切的道路在这些事情中是可预测的。我不认为你有一个——我认为当人们非常细致地规划他们的职业生涯时，它几乎总是不会按照你计划的方式发展。但我非常痴迷的是，我想用我的时间做一些有目的和有意义的事情。我想确保它具有商业相关性。因为我觉得商业相关性实际上创造了一种提升和对社会的影响，这很容易衡量。我想确保实现这一目标的方式利用了我拥有的技能，并且我在做这件事时很开心。这些是——如果我回顾大约 35 年，这些是我说过我想随着时间的推移做的事情。我认为你在旅程中学到很多关于自己的东西。不是每一天都是美好和伟大的，你知道，彩虹和玫瑰。我认为有很多艰难的日子，我认为痛苦——你知道，Jensen 说我希望你受苦。我认为我已经受够了苦。我觉得——在这方面没有什么不同。我不认为如果你 35 年前问我预测 35 年后会是什么样子，我最疯狂的想象也不会觉得我会得到人们给我的机会。

I don't think the exact path is predictable in these things. I don't think like you have a— I think when people plan out their careers very meticulously, it almost always never works out the way that you had planned it. But what I was very obsessed about was I wanted to do something that was purposeful and meaningful with my time. I wanted to make sure that it had commercial relevance. Because I feel like commercial relevance actually creates a level of lift and impact to society that it's just very easy to measure. And I wanted to make sure that the way that that happened took advantage of skills that I had and that I was having fun doing it. Those are the things that were kind of— if I look back, you know, 35 years or so now, those are the things that I had said that I wanted to do over time. And I think you learn a lot about yourself as you go through the journey. Not every single day is hunky-dory and great and you know, rainbows and roses. I think there is— There's a lot of hard days and I think the suffering— You know, Jensen says this like I want you to suffer. I think I've had my share of suffering. And I feel like that— there was no different in this one. I don't think if you would have asked me 35 years ago to project what 35 years later is going to look like, my wildest imaginations I would have not felt like I would have had the opportunities that people gave me.

好的。

Okay.

我零机会会觉得我——第一，我值得这些机会，第二，人们会给我这些机会。但是，你知道，当你学习东西时，你会发现哦，这——我也可以学会这个，而且并不那么难。

Zero chance that I would have felt like I— one, that I was deserving of them and two, that people would give them to me. But, you know, as you learn stuff, you figure out that oh, this is— I can learn this as well and it's not that hard.

那么，那个从印度来到美国的 19 岁年轻人——今天坐在我对面的那部分有多少？我会认出什么？

So, what part of the 19-year-old that came from India to America— what part of that is sitting across from me today? What would I recognize?

大部分是那个 19 岁的年轻人。我不认为——我试图随着年龄和经验增长而不变得愤世嫉俗，我试图忘掉所学的东西和学到的一样多。我有一种饥饿感和希望，我会做大事，我 19 岁，我仍然觉得自己在零日，还有更多事情要做，我们刚刚开始。所以，我确实觉得——我有一种——我有一个 15 岁的女儿，所以那——但那时我 19 岁时有一个母亲要照顾。现在我有一个女儿，我觉得对她有责任。

Most of the 19-year-old. I don't think— I've tried to not get cynical as I've gotten older with experience and I try to unlearn as much as I've learned. And there was a level of hunger and hope that I had that I would do big things and I was 19 and I still feel like I'm on day zero and there's still so much more to do and we just came wound up. So, I do feel that— I feel a level of— I have a 15-year-old daughter and so that— but back then I had a mother I was taking care of at 19. Now I have a daughter and I feel responsible for.

好的。

Okay.

所以，即使那也是相似的。你知道，就像我总是觉得有其他人我需要照顾。所以，现在不是——我不是只为我自己而活。我有其他人我需要照顾，我觉得，你知道，我有一个家庭和一个伟大的伴侣以及一个了不起的女儿，她在某些方面像五岁，在某些方面像 40 岁。

So, that even that is similar. You know, like I always felt like there was someone else I had to look out for. So, now not— I'm not living my life just for myself. I have someone else that I have to look out for and I feel like, you know, I have a family and a great partner and an amazing daughter who in some ways is like five and some ways is like 40.

我知道那是怎么回事。是的。好的，所以我想回到年轻的 Jeetu。

I know how that goes. Yes. Yeah. Okay, so I want to go back to the young Jeetu.

是的。

Yes.

你在孟买出生和长大。

And you were born and raised in Bombay.

在孟买出生和长大。

Born and raised in Bombay.

告诉我你的家庭生活是什么样的。

And tell me about what your home life was like.

所以，你知道，我爸爸是——他从来没有——不幸的是，他从来没有真正能够说出真相。他在事情上是一个永久的骗子。

So, you know, my dad was— he was never un- it was unfortunate that he never really was able to go speak the truth. He was a perpetual liar on things.

好的。

Okay.

我之所以非常直接，有时直接到让人不舒服，比如“天哪，他为什么对我说那样的话？”是因为我从来不想被指责对人不直率，因为我如此积极地试图不拥有他的那个特点。

And one of the reasons I'm very direct and sometimes I can be direct to the point that it's jarring to people like, "Oh my god, like why is he saying that to me?" It's because I never want to be accused of just being straight with people because I so actively have tried to not have that characteristic of him.

好的。

Okay.

但他是一个好父亲，却是一个坏丈夫。

But he was a good father, but he was a bad husband.

好的。

Okay.

那时我永远分不清区别。他是一个高风险的骗子。他像 Bernie Madoff。骗了很多人的钱。我从来没有真正想要——我从来没有真正对那部分感到舒服。所以他，你知道，对我妈妈不忠。他有一个情妇。

And I could never tell the difference back then. And he was a high-stakes con man. He was like Bernie Madoff. Swindled a lot of people for money. I never really wanted— I never really felt comfortable with that part of it. And so and he was, you know, like promiscuous with my mom. He had a mistress.

他把情妇带到我们家，还说她要和我们一起住，后来她最终自杀了，年轻时候家里有很多戏剧性的事情。

He had gotten the mistress over to our home and he had said that she's going to live with us and then she eventually ended up taking her life and it was just like there was a lot of drama in the younger years.

那你意识到这一切的时候是多大？

So, how old were you when you were realizing all of this?

嗯，他第一次进监狱的时候我大概 7 岁左右。

Uh, so I first time he was in prison I was like 7 years old or something.

好的。

Okay.

嗯，所以我了解他那的一面，随着年龄增长，我越来越能看清。但尽管如此，他非常爱我。所以我很幸运。但因为他对我母亲的关系不尊重，我成长过程中从未真正感到——嗯，我对他有很多愤怒。嗯，但在 2004 年，他病得很重。我在 1991 年就离开了。从那以后就没怎么见过他。我一个朋友打电话给我说：“嘿，你爸爸在医院病得很重。”我的第一反应是：“他说的是真的吗，还是他真的病了？”我说：“不，不，不，他说的是真的。他病了。你应该来看看他。”所以我去看了他。嗯，我告诉他我对他所做的事有多失望。嗯，他听了——你知道，值得称赞的是，我想我没有公开分享过这件事。不是因为它是什么秘密，我只是没做过。值得称赞的是，他听了全部。然后，嗯，我回来了。两天后，他这么多年后打电话给我妈，感谢她培养了一个好儿子。

Um, and so I knew that side of him that just got more and more revealed to me the older I got and the more I was able to be aware of it. But, none of that actually—he loved me very much. And so I was very lucky about that. But, because of his relationship that was not respectful with my mother I never really felt—um, I felt a lot of anger towards him when I was growing up. Um, but back in 2004, he got really sick. So, I had left in 1991. Hadn't really seen him much since then. One of my buddies called me said, "Hey, your dad's really sick in the hospital." And my first reaction was, "Is he actually telling the truth or is he really sick?" I said, "No, no, no, he's telling the truth. He's sick. You should come see him." So, I went to go see him. Um, and I told him how disappointed I was in what he had done. Um, and he lit—you know, to his credit, I don't think I've shared this um, you know, publicly in any forum. Not because it's secret or anything, I just haven't done it. To his credit, he listened to all of it. And then, um, I came back. Two days later, he called my mom after all those years and he thanked her for raising a good son.

哇。

Wow.

他们和解了。六个月后，他去世了。嗯，但他曾以非常尴尬的方式从别人那里拿钱，你知道，他拿了这些人的钱让我很难堪。所以我在 2017 年又回去了。从 2004 年到 2017 年，我没回去过。2017 年，我回去，遇到一个以前是我隔壁邻居的人，他拿过他的钱。所以我走到他面前说：“嘿，我只是想告诉你，我是某某的儿子，嗯，我真的很抱歉我爸爸做了这件事。”他说：“哦，不，不，孩子，坐下。”他说：“让我给你讲个故事。”故事是，2004 年 8 月，我 7 月去看过他。

And they made peace. Six months later, he passed away. Um, but um, he had taken like money from people in really embarrassing ways and, you know, like it was very awkward for me that he had taken money from all these people. So, I happened to go back again in 2017. So, like from 2004 to 2017, I hadn't gone back. 2017, I go back and I meet—I see one of these people that used to be my next-door neighbor that he had taken money from. So, I went up to him. And I said, "Hey, I just wanted to let you know uh I'm so-and-so's son and um uh I'm really sorry that my dad did this." He said, "Oh, no, no, son, sit down." And he's like, "Let me tell you a story." And the story was that back in 2004, in August, I had gone to visit him in July.

好的。

Okay.

然后 8 月，嗯，“你爸爸来找我，还了我的钱。”

So, then August, um "Your dad came to me and returned my money."

天哪。所以那次谈话真的产生了影响。

Oh my gosh. And so, you really made an impact that conversation.

肯定产生了影响，他去还了钱。他说：“其实有人让我采取法律行动，找各种人去威胁他，所有这些。”他说：“我不想做任何这些，但突然，多年后，他 2004 年来还了我的钱。所以，我只想让你知道，不要因为发生了这件事而难过。”我说：“这太好了。”嗯，显然，他没有还所有人的钱，我肯定。嗯，但这是一个我引用的例子。我说：“嘿，你这样做真的很令人失望。”嗯，所以从这个角度，我认为每个人心中都有善良。

Must have made an impact and he went and returned his money. And he's like, "I was actually uh people that told me take legal action, get like all kinds of people to go threaten him, all of that." He's like, "I didn't want to do any of that, but all of a sudden, out of nowhere, years later, he came in 2004 and he returned my money. And so, I just want you to know to not feel bad because that's happened." I'm like, "This is great." Um I Clearly, he didn't return everyone's money that he had taken, I'm sure. Um but this was—This one was an example that I had cited. Saying, "Hey, this was really disappointing that you did this." Um And so, like from that perspective, I think everyone has goodness in their heart.

对。

Right.

他们只是有时误入歧途。所以，我认为宽恕是非常重要的。

They just sometimes fall in the wrong path. And so, I think forgiveness is a really important thing.

所以你母亲和你都原谅了他。

So, both your mother and you forgave him.

绝对。

Absolutely.

好的。

Okay.

不，我感激他给了我这样的生活。我感激他是个好父亲。嗯，我感激因为与他的经历，无论好坏，我成为了今天的我。

No, I have—I'm grateful to him that he gave me the life that he did. I am grateful that he was a good father. Um I'm grateful that because of the experiences I had with him, both good and bad, uh, I am the person who I am today.

所以你一定几乎是家里的和事佬。你——你觉得你——你必须保护你母亲吗？

So, you must have been almost like the peacemaker in the home. You did—you feel like a—you had to protect your mother?

我觉得我必须保护我母亲。嗯，你知道，有一些事件，他打了我妈，然后我拦截了，然后我们有一些肢体冲突，总的来说是非常不舒服的情况。所以，嗯，但当时我的工作是保护我妈。我妈是我最好的朋友。

I felt like I had to protect my mother. And, uh, there was, you know, there were some episodes where he had hit my mom and then I had intercepted and then we had had some physical encounters and it was just a very, um, uncomfortable situation in general. And so, um, but I was—my job at the time was to protect my mom. My mom was my best friend.

好的。

Okay.

她和我住在这里，直到 3 年前她去世。

And she lived here with me until 3 years ago when she passed away.

哇。

Wow.

嗯，她从未和我们住在一起。她想住在自己的家里。她说：“我想做的是确保我独立生活，在我的家里。我需要一个厨房。我需要一个地址。我需要有自己的钥匙，可以进出。而你是唯一可以有钥匙的人。”所以很长一段时间我们都这样做。然后她年纪大了，我说：“妈，我们有一个大后院。我会在那里为你建一个家。我们会给你一个新地址。我们会确保你有钥匙。它会有自己的厨房和洗衣机烘干机。你能搬来和我们一起住吗？”她终于同意了。我们建了一个家。她搬进来 2 周后去世了。

Uh, she never lived with us. She wanted to live in a home. She had her—She said, "What I want to do is I want to make sure that I'm living with my independence, um, in my home. I need to have a kitchen. I need to have an address. I need to be able to have my own key that I can go in and out of. And you're the only one that can have a key." And so, for the longest time we did that. And then she was getting older and then like, "Mom, we have a big backyard. I'll build a home for you there. We'll give you a new address. We will make sure that you have a key. It'll have its own kitchen and washer dryer. Can you come move in with us?" And she finally agreed to do that. We built a home. And she moved in for 2 weeks before she passed away.

哇。

Wow.

但是，我的意思是，她是世界上最好的母亲。她弥补了我爸爸所有的缺点。嗯，在最后 8 周，我和她在医院住在一起。

But, I mean, she was the best mother on the planet. Like, she made up for all the shortcomings that my dad had. Um, and in the last 8 weeks I lived with her in the hospital.

哇。

Wow.

嗯，她，嗯，你知道，我们打电话给每一个触动我们生活的人说再见。我必须去参加一些活动，你知道，思科有一些活动我要演讲，嗯，Cisco Live EMEA，这是我们在欧洲的大型用户会议。我说：“妈，我去阿姆斯特丹 2 天。我会回来的。”她说：“绝对不行。”我说：“妈，我得去。我在工作，你知道？”她说：“我不能让你走。”因为如果我出了什么事，我不想你带着遗憾生活。

And, um, she was, um, you know, we called every single person that touched our lives to say goodbye. I had to go to some event, you know, Cisco had some event that I was speaking at, uh, Cisco Live EMEA, which is our big user conference in Europe. Like, "Mom, I'm to Amsterdam for 2 days. I'll be back. She's like, "Absolutely not." Like, and I'm like, "Mom, like, I have to go. I'm working, like, you know?" And she's like, "I cannot let you go." "Because if something goes wrong with me, uh I don't want you to live with regret."

哇。

Wow.

所以，她没让我走。我决定留下来。我们的 CEO 查克发短信给我。说：“她是你唯一的优先事项。”全部大写。你知道吗？嗯，我的意思是，我们给了她一个很好的告别。她说：“我想死在你的怀里。”她最终在我的怀里去世。嗯，有史以来最好的女士之一。我和她有很多美好的回忆。她去世时没有留下任何未说的话，这太棒了，因为——我的一个好朋友说，任何看这个节目的人，如果你有父母，或者你现在很幸运有父母，多拍视频，因为你可能拍很多照片。最终发生的是，随着时间的推移，你忘记了他们的声音。

And so, she didn't let me go. I decided to stay back. Chuck, who's our CEO, texted me. Said, "She's your only priority." In all caps. You know? And uh I mean, it was—We gave her a good send-off. She said, "I want to die in your arms." She ended up dying in my arms. Uh one of the best ladies ever to have been around. And I've got um great memories with her. And and she um she left nothing unsaid by the time she was gone, which is which was amazing because—And one of my good friends said that anyone watching this show, if you have parents, or you're lucky enough to have parents right now, take a lot of videos because you might take a lot of pictures. What ends up happening is over time you forget how they sound.

哇。

Wow.

我的一个教练，我的健身教练，嗯，金，她对我说，她刚失去母亲不久。她说：“吉图，一定要多拍视频。”这是我妈在医院的时候。所以我拍了很多视频。我可以告诉你，直到今天，有时我会坐在她——她曾经住的地方。我们还保持着原来的样子。

And one of my trainers, my fitness trainer, uh Kim, she had said to me, she said she had just lost her mother a while ago. She said, "Jitu, make sure you take a lot of videos." This is while my mom was in the hospital. So, I took a lot of videos. And I can tell you even to this day there are times that I'll just sit down in her—the place that she used to live in. We have still kept it exactly the way there was.

我会时不时去那里看她的视频。我很庆幸自己这么做了，因为我依然记得——我觉得她就在我身边。

I'll go there from time to time and watch her videos. I'm so glad I did, because I still remember — I feel like she's with me.

你小时候，她对你有什么期望？她对你有什么梦想？

What were her expectations of you when you were a kid? What dreams did she have for you?

小时候，她只希望我能把学上完。我在印度时是个糟糕的学生，有很多纪律问题之类的。所以她就说：“求你了，你能不能就把学上完？”

As a kid, she just wanted me to get through school. I was a terrible student back in India. I had a lot of disciplinary issues and all of that. So she was just like, "Just please, can you just get through school?"

她有时会跟我说：“你爸没有生意可以让你直接出去继承，印度很多人都是那样。你得靠自己闯出来，你在学校就得负起责任。”而我总是说：“唉，我不知道。”说实话，那时候在职业上该做什么让我非常不知所措，因为我当时完全不知道要做什么。

She would tell me sometimes, "Your dad doesn't have a business that you can just go out and inherit, which is what a lot of people in India do. You're going to have to make it on your own, and you need to just be responsible in school." And I would always be like, "Nah, I don't know." Frankly, it was very overwhelming professionally on what to do, because I had no idea what to do back then.

我来这里的时候，我们已经很久没见了，因为她拿不到来这里的签证。我已经在这里上学了，当时也负担不起来回的费用。然后她过了 7 年才来。所以我有 7 年没见到我妈妈。而她是我最好的朋友。

When I came here, we hadn't seen each other for a very long period of time, because she couldn't get a visa to come here. I was already here, going through school. I couldn't afford going back at the time. And then she came after 7 years. So I didn't see my mom for 7 years. And she's my best friend.

我得真的攒钱，因为那时候打电话一分钟要 3 美元左右。所以我得攒钱才能跟她通话。她第一次来这里的时候，那完全是一段神奇的时光，因为她看到了我如鱼得水的样子。我当时在芝加哥已经创业了。

I would have to literally save up money because it used to cost like $3 a minute to talk to people on the phone. So I had to save up money to talk to her. And when she came here for the first time, that was completely a magical time because she saw me in my element. I had started a business in Chicago.

我小时候口吃，不是个很自信的孩子。而她每次看到我都很惊叹。我能感觉到我在她身边时她就有那种感受。她会说：“天哪，你说话这么流利，你在跟人交流，你这么自信。”而我心里其实有一部分感觉特别好，因为我妈妈为我这样做感到骄傲。

I used to stutter when I was a kid. I was not a very confident kid. And then she was just marveled every single time she saw me. And I could tell that she felt that way when I was around her. She'd be like, "Oh my god, you're so eloquent in how you speak, and you're talking to the people, and you're so confident." And part of me actually felt really good that my mom was proud that I was doing that.

是啊。

Yeah.

她从来不知道我具体做什么。我想直到她去世那天都不知道。我试着跟她解释过几次，但我觉得她没弄明白。不过不管怎样，她给了我很多好建议。

She never knew what I did. I think until the day she died. I tried to explain to her a couple times, but I don't think she did. But anyway, she gave me a lot of good advice.

比如，我当时在经营自己的生意，是芝加哥的一家咨询公司。后来我要去 EMC，去硅谷。我在考虑要不要接这份工作。我就问她：“妈，这是份新工作，我们全家都得搬到加州。我该接吗？”她说：“哪个更让你害怕？”我说：“哦，肯定是新工作。旧工作我闭着眼都能做。”她说：“那就接新工作。”

For example, I was running my own business, a consultancy in Chicago. And then I moved to EMC, to the Valley. And I was contemplating whether to take the job or not. And I asked her, "Mom, this is this new job. We have to all move to California. Should I take it?" She's like, "Which one scares you more?" I'm like, "Oh, definitely the new job. The old job I can do in my sleep." She's like, "Then take the new job."

哇。

Wow.

对一个完全不了解我要做什么的人来说，这建议真是太睿智了。

And it was such sage advice for someone who didn't know anything about what I was going to do.

没错。

Right.

所以，你就是要克服自己的恐惧。我们就是这么做的。

So, you just overcome your fears. And that's where we did that.

太棒了。那你第一次来美国的时候——我是说，在你那个年代，你没法事先了解很多关于你要去的地方的信息。你就那么来了。

That's amazing. So, when you came to America for the first time — I mean, back in the day when you did it, you couldn't find out a lot of information about where you were coming. You just kind of came.

对，就那么来了。我三年级时来过美国一次，九年级时又来了一次。我叔叔阿姨住在这里，我跟一个表亲很亲近，巧的是他这周末要来看我。所以我刚来这里时，有些地方是熟悉的。

No, you just came. I'd been to America once before in third grade. And then once again in ninth grade. My uncle and aunt lived here and I was very close to one of my cousins, who coincidentally is coming to visit me this weekend. So when I first came here, there was some familiar territory.

好。

Okay.

但对我来说，最初大概头一年，美国是个孤独的地方。

But America for me initially, for the first year or so, was a lonely place.

是啊。

Yeah.

因为我妈妈在那么远的地方，我的朋友都在那边。我不太确定自己能不能在这里好好立足。我在学业上并不是最聪明的孩子。但结果在美国，我成了全 A 学生。

Because my mom was so far away, my friends were all there. I wasn't really sure if I was going to be able to make it here in a good way. I wasn't academically the most bright kid. But it turned out that in America I became a straight A student.

哇。

Wow.

需求是发明之母，你总会想出不同的办法做事。而且我心里有个非常清晰的目标，就是我必须确保赚到足够的钱来照顾我和我妈妈。

Necessity is the mother of invention, and you just figure out different ways to do things. And I had a very clear goal in mind, which is I had to make sure I made enough money to take care of me and my mom.

所以，尽管硅谷有那么多“别追逐金钱”“一切都好”“做你热爱的事”的说法——我刚进入职场时，我的目标就是我得赚够钱，让我们能活下去。

So for all the Silicon Valley talk about don't chase money and everything is okay and do what you love — when I started in the workforce, my objective was I need to make enough money so that we can survive.

嗯。

Mhm.

我刚来这里时，起初很难，但我觉得一路上有很多人帮助我，我也交了很多好朋友。我人生的每一个十年都很有福气。我们结交了新朋友，他们成了非常亲密的朋友。我一直惊讶于朋友的数量——我们每年在我家办排球派对，现在大概有 300 人来参加。

And when I came here, initially it was hard, but I think there were so many people that helped along the way and I made so many good friends. Every decade of my life, I've been very blessed. We have made new friends that have become very dear friends. I continue to be amazed at the number of friends — we do this annual volleyball party at my home, and now it's gotten to be like about 300 people come to it.

哇。

Wow.

但这些都是亲密的朋友，他们彼此甚至可能不认识，但他们每年聚一次，那种感觉非常令人满足。我是独生子，所以我觉得朋友就像家人。

But these are all close friends that might not even know each other, but they come and they meet once a year, and it's a very gratifying feeling. I was the only child, so I felt like friends are like family.

那这些朋友里有些是你在芝加哥认识的吗，还是——

So, are some of these friends ones that you met in Chicago, or are they—

在芝加哥认识的，在工作中认识的，在行业里认识的，还有在人生中各种偶然场合认识的人。我最好的朋友之一——她和我曾在同一个活动上演讲，然后我们大概六七年前认识了。她是我最好的朋友之一。

Met in Chicago, met at work, the industry, people that I met at random kinds of events in life. One of my best friends — she and I had spoken at an event together, and then we met like 6 years ago, 7 years ago. She's one of my best friends.

真好。

Nice.

是我最好的朋友。所以我觉得有很多这样的人，以你从未想过的方式走进你的生活。

Is my best friend. And so I feel like there's a lot of these people that just come into your lives in different ways that you never thought would be possible.

你得是一个非常热情、开放的人，才能让别人走进你的——

You have to be a very welcoming and open person to allow people into your—

我觉得你得允许别人走进来，而且你得提前投入。因为人际关系不能是交易式的。我觉得很多时候人们会犯这样的错误，问“我能从这个人身上得到什么？”有时候我只是需要确保自己能接触到另一个人，因为每个人都是独特的，向每一个和你构成略有不同的人学习，本身就是一种丰富的体验。

I think you have to allow people, and you have to forward invest. Because human relationships can't be transactional. And I think a lot of times people make the mistake of saying, "What do I need from this person?" Sometimes I just need to make sure that I get exposed to another person, because every human is unique, and learning from everyone that's composed slightly differently than you is an enriching experience in and of itself.

那你第一次来美国时，什么最让你惊讶？也许是好的方面的惊喜，也可能有失望。

So, when you first came to America, what surprised you most? Maybe surprised you on the upside, as well as the disappointment, maybe.

我觉得美国还没让我失望过。对我来说，这里很快就成了家，因为它张开双臂接纳了我，给了我所有的机会。所以如果有人问我：“你愿意为哪个国家而战？”那会是美国。我全心全意爱这个国家。

I don't think America has disappointed me yet. For me, this became home very quickly, because it took me in with open arms and afforded me all the opportunities. So if someone said to me, "What is the country you would fight for?" It would be America. I love this country with all my heart.

什么时候开始有家的感觉？

When did it feel like home?

哦，我觉得嗯，因为从我的家乡来到这里太艰难了，嗯，刚踏上美国的土地时，我就想：“哇，这太棒了。”

Oh, I think um because it was so traumatic when I came here from where I came um just touching ground in America, I'm like, "Wow, this is great."

那么，后来你上了大学。你从一开始就计划上大学吗？

So, then you go to university. Was it your plan to go to university from the beginning?

不，我刚来的时候，根本不知道要做什么，也不知道会不会留下。你知道，我来到这里，心想：“好吧，看看我能探索什么，看看有什么可能，如果不行，我就回家。”嗯，但我不想回家，因为我想看看有没有可能的机会，于是我决定去上学，嗯，或者探索学校。我进了芝加哥的一所社区大学。然后我申请了学生签证。所以，好吧，我在社区大学，也许我会读完本科。嗯，我决定读本科的领域也非常偶然，因为有一天晚上，我刚来那天晚上，家里的一群人被邀请过来

No, so when I came here, I had no idea what I was going to do or if I was going to stay. You know, I came here, I'm like, "Okay, let's see if we I'll explore and look at what might be possible and if not, I'll go back home." Um but I didn't want to go back home because I wanted to see if there was something possible and I actually decided to go to school uh or to explore school. I got in to a community college in Chicago. And then I applied for a student visa. So, okay, I'm in the community college, so maybe I'll do my undergrad. Um and the field that I decided to do my undergrad in was also very serendipitous because we had a bunch of people from the family either were invited over one night when I the night I first came in

到你叔叔家。

to your uncle's house.

到我叔叔家。我的另一个叔叔问我：“那么，你打算学什么？”我说：“不知道，商科吧。”因为我在学校成绩不太好。他说：“不，别学商科。学计算机。你会赚更多钱。”我说：“好吧。”第二天我就注册了芝加哥的哈珀学院，不是第二天，而是几天后，嗯，注册了一门计算机科学课程，我很喜欢，我成了那里的实验室助理，我会教别人，那变得很酷，然后一件事接一件事，后来我从两年制社区大学转到了四年制大学，我当时真的捉襟见肘，没有足够的钱，然后我的一位教授说：“我要给你一个本科生助教职位，让本科生教本科生。”这从未发生过。所以她向副校长申请，我得到了那个职位，我成了助教，所以我教所有人，我热爱教学，那给了我很多信心，我曾经端盘子，那也给了我很多信心，因为我曾经口吃。所以端盘子时，突然我的口吃消失了，因为大脑中有什么东西翻转了，说你必须娱乐人们，比你天生更外向，所以

To my uncle's house. One of my other uncles asked me, "So, so what are you going to study?" I'm like, "I don't know, business." Cuz I wasn't very good in school. And he said, "Nah, don't do business. Study computers. You'll make more money." I'm like, "All right." The next day I enrolled at Harper College in Chicago to not next day, but like a few days later um to a computer science course and I loved it and I became a lab assistant over there and I would teach people and that became very cool and one thing led to the other and then I actually transferred from a two-year community college to a four-year college and I I was like really hand-to-mouth at the time, didn't have enough money and then one of my professors said, "I'm going to give you a teaching assistantship as an undergrad for undergrads." which had never happened. So she petitioned to the vice-chancellor and I got that and I became a teaching assistant and so I was teaching everyone and I loved teaching and that that that gave me a lot of kind of confidence and I had I used to wait on tables and that gave me a lot of confidence cuz I used to stutter. And so waiting on tables, all of a sudden my stuttering went away because something flipped in the brain that said you have to entertain people and be more extroverted than what you are naturally and so

所以你来到美国后真的重塑了自己。

So you really did reinvent yourself when you came to America.

从那个角度来说，和过去的我完全不同。

Completely different from that perspective than what I used to be.

而且你在计算机科学中找到了自己的使命，这显然非常困难，而你从来都不是很用功。

And and the fact that you found your calling in computer science which obviously is very difficult and you were never very studious.

我从来都不是很用功。我是——那是——所以我说这是运气。当人们说：“天哪，你工作真努力。”我就想：“你不能理智——你不能对成功傲慢。”因为在那些最初的成长岁月里，任何一个转折都可能完全改变我的人生，而我只是纯粹运气好，在正确的时间出现在正确的地点。所以是的，我利用了这个机会，但我认识很多非常努力的人。

I was never very studious. I was It was That's why I say it's a stroke of luck. When people say, "Oh my goodness, you work so hard." I'm like, "You can't be intellectual You can't be arrogant about success." Because any turn during those initial formative years could have completely changed my life and it was just pure luck that I happened to be at the right place at the right time. So yes, I made took advantage of the opportunity but there's a lot of people I know that worked very hard.

对。

Right.

但很少有人真正获得机会。我——我举个例子。我 2017 年回去时，带了我女儿。她大概五六岁。我带她去了泰姬陵。我们三个人去了泰姬陵。我的另一半、我女儿和我。那里的导游叫 Raj。他是个非常好的导游。他好像对泰姬陵无所不知，我不知道他是编的还是真的，但他听起来真的很棒。然后当我们从泰姬陵走回主入口时，所有这些人经过，他会开始和他们说话，突然蹦出不同的语言。在某个时刻我说：“老兄，你会说多少种语言？”他说：“哦，我会说大概 12 或 14 种或某个

But very few that actually are afforded the opportunity. I'll I'll give you an example. I When I went back in 2017, I took my daughter with me. She was like five or six years old. And I took her to the Taj Mahal. Three of us went to the Taj Mahal. My better half, my daughter and me. And the the tour guide there was his name was Raj. He was like a really good tour guide. Like he knew everything about the Taj Mahal and he I don't know if he was making this stuff up or he was actually genuine about it, but he sounded really good. And then when we were walking back from the Taj Mahal to this main entrance, like all these people would come by and he would start speaking to them and bust out in different languages. And at some point I'm like, "Dude, how many languages do you speak?" And he said, "Oh, like I speak like 12 or 14 or some

天哪。

Oh my gosh.

非常高的数字。”他说：“先生，我每天学一门新语言。”呃，每周。不，对不起，不是每周。我每年学一门新语言。我说：“那——那很多。你为什么——你为什么这么做？”他说：“因为我不想假设来我们国家的人会说我的语言。所以我想通过说他们的语言来尊重他们。”我心想，这家伙绝对比我领导团队中的任何人都聪明。可能和任何销售员一样聪明。他可能每天赚 10 美元。而我坐在这里，经济上非常成功和舒适。嗯，除了他可能比我聪明之外，我们俩唯一的区别是我有平台，而他没有。我有美国的平台，我有教育的平台，我有科技的平台，我当时有 Box 的平台。嗯，他没有这些。所以我一直觉得，你知道，如果你没有获得机会而没有成功，那不是你的错。你必须尝试，但有时候非常聪明、有能力、勤奋的人就是得不到机会。但如果你获得了平台却没有充分利用，我的意思是，你应该感到羞耻。

really high number." And he's like, "I learn a new language every day, sir." Uh every week. No, I'm sorry, not every week. I learn a new language every year. And I'm like, "That's that's a lot. Why do you Why do you do that?" He said, "Because I I don't want to be presumptuous of the people that come into my country that they're going to speak my language. And so I want to honor them by speaking their language." And I'm thinking to myself like this guy is categorically smarter than anyone in my leadership team that I work with. Probably just as smart as any salesperson. He's probably making 10 bucks a day. And I am sitting over here doing extremely well and comfortable financially. Um and the only difference between the two of us other than he might be smarter than me is that I have a platform and he doesn't. I had the platform of America, I had the platform of education, I had the platform of tech, I had the platform at the time of Box. Um he didn't have that. And so I've always felt like you know, if you're not afforded the opportunity and you don't succeed, that is not on you. You have to try, but it's at some point in time very smart, capable people that are hard working don't don't get afforded the opportunity. But if you're afforded a platform and you don't make the most of it, I mean, shame on you.

所以听起来你有很强的社会正义感。

So you have a great sense of social justice, it sounds like.

我觉得我被给予的机会远远超出了我的能力。嗯，我应该试着看看能否充分利用它，我——我确保我的贡献能改善人们的生活，但不一定是以慈善的方式，而更多是——我认为资本主义实际上是创造世界影响的好方法，因为如果你创新了什么，并且能将其广泛传播，让数十亿人受益于你的工作。我认为你实际上很大程度上提升了社会。所以我发现在科技领域非常令人满足，因为你可以有大胆的抱负，并且能够出去实现它们。

I feel like I've been given opportunities way above my capability. And um and should try to see if I can make the most of it and and I'm I'm make sure that my contribution creates improved lives, but not necessarily in a charitable way, but more so in a way of I think capitalism is actually a great way to create impact in the world because if you innovate something and you can actually get it to a broad level of diffusion where there's you know, billions of people that can benefit from the work that you've done. I think you actually uplift society quite a bit. And so I found it to be very gratifying being in in the in the tech field because you can you can have bold ambitions and you're able to go out and make them.

那么，在大学给你突破的那位教授，她知道你现在在做什么吗？还是他？是——是她吗？

So the professor who gave you the break at university does she know what you're doing now or he? Is it It was a she?

哦，不，是她。她——我 4 个月前刚和她通过话。

Oh, so no, it was a she. She I just spoke to her 4 months ago.

好的。

Okay.

4 或 5 个月前。我突然给她打电话，她刚从癌症中康复。嗯，我们谈论的一件事是，她感觉好些后会来这里看我。

4 or 5 months ago. I called her out of the blue and she had just recovered from cancer. And um one of the things we talked about is she's going to come visit me here when she feels better.

好的。

Okay.

我的意思是，她是个天使。

And I mean she was an angel.

那是在上学那会儿。有一天我开始在这家公司做实习生。那段实习里有个故事特别有意思。我以实习生身份进去，然后那两位来自 Zeroox 的联合创始人，其中一个来找我说：“嘿，我们原来那个投资人要卖掉他的股份，我们打算把他买下来。”我说：“我也要参与，我也想把他买下来。”要知道，我当时拿的差不多是最低工资，低得离谱。他说：“行啊，我们每人出 25 万美元，你也出 25 万美元，就能参与进来。”我认识一个人，他其实是我们的客户，碰巧也是个银行家。我去找他，说：“嘿，我想借 25 万美元。”他一直把我当自己带的小孩看待。他说：“你要 25 万美元干什么？”我说：“我要借来买下这门生意。”他说：“你买下这门生意之后打算干什么？”我说我要去经营它。

And that was on the schooling side. One day I started as an intern at this company. One of the stories that was really interesting was that internship. I started as an intern, and then the two co-founders that were from Zeroox, one of them came to me and said, "Hey, we're going to have the original investor in our business, he's going to want to sell his shares. So we're going to buy him out." And I'm like, "I want in. I want to buy him out, too." Mind you, I was making like minimum wage at the time, or something really ridiculously low. He said, "Yeah, you know, we're each putting in a quarter million dollars. Why don't you put in a quarter million dollars and then you can be part of this." And I knew someone that was actually a customer of ours that happened to also be a banker, and I went to him and I'm like, "Hey, I want to borrow a quarter million dollars." And he had always looked at me as like a kid that he mentored. He said, "Why do you need a quarter million dollars?" I'm like, "Well, I need to borrow it to buy this business." He said, "What are you going to do when you buy the business?" I'm going to run it.

一个实习生。

An intern.

对。他沉默了大概 30 秒，然后说：“好吧，孩子，明天过来拿。对，我会收你利息，10% 的利息。明天过来拿走，这钱就归你了。”我借了这笔钱，经营了那门生意 17 年，后来把钱还给了他。他是个了不起的人，几年前过世了。我觉得人生中会有这样的天使出现，没有他们，你到不了今天的位置。

Yeah. And he was like 30 seconds of silence. And he said, "Okay, son, come by tomorrow, pick it up. Yeah, I'm going to charge you interest. It's going to be 10% interest. Come by and pick it up tomorrow and then you can have it." And I borrowed the money. I ran that business for 17 years. I paid him back. He was an amazing human being that passed away a few years ago, and I feel like you have these angels that come into your life that without whom you would not be where you are.

是啊。你觉得自己对别人来说也是那样的人吗？

Right. Do you feel like you've been that person to others?

希望如此。我努力过。大概我还能做得更多，但我对很多人试过，确保他们——这么说吧，做那种大范围的慈善并不会给我太多满足感。捐款之类的我也会尽自己的一份，但我真正觉得有成就感的是，以“零售”的方式找到我能帮的人，然后亲自去帮这些人。

I hope so. I've tried. Probably more that I could do as well, but I've tried with many people to make sure that they—like, I don't get that much satisfaction by doing broad-scale charity. I'll do my share of donations, all of that, but what I actually really find fulfilling is finding, in retail mode, people that I can help and then going out and helping those individuals.

一次帮一个人。

One life at a time.

对，一次帮一个人。对我来说，这比什么都规模化地做更有满足感。我做生意是规模化的，但我觉得那些事往往就是……你懂的，挺让人满足的。所以有几个人我是主动去带的——当一个人潜力很高、又极度渴望时，我往往会靠近这类人，心想：“好，我得确保帮到这个人。”我会这么做，但我学到的是，你得教他们钓鱼，而不是直接给他们鱼。

Yeah, one life at a time. I find that more fulfilling for myself than just doing everything at scale. I do business at scale, but I feel like those things tend to be very, you know, kind of gratifying. So I've had a few people that I've taken on as active—you know, when people have very high potential and they have an extreme amount of hunger, I tend to gravitate to those kind of people and I'm like, "Okay, I need to make sure I help this person out." And I do that, but the thing that I've learned is you got to teach them how to fish rather than giving them the fish.

对。

Right.

你懂的。所以是的，我希望自己能多做些这样的事。

You know. So yeah, I hope I can do more of it.

那你是什么时候发现自己也有这种领导力的？我是指，是在 DocuLabs 吗？

So, when was it that you discovered that you also had this leadership skill? I mean, was that at DocuLabs?

是在 DocuLabs，因为我们起步时——我先做了实习，然后我们开始经营自己的生意。我发现有一种巨大的能力，就是把一件事当成项目，全身心投入把它完成。我一直觉得那样的项目做起来非常非常令人满足、有成就感。对吧？我本以为自己做不到，我全身心投入，不知不觉间就做出了很棒的东西。而更让人兴奋的是，当其他人也参与进来的时候。

It was at DocuLabs, because we started—I had an internship and then we started running our business. And what I found was there was this tremendous ability to be able to take something as a project and finish it off and put in your heart and soul into it. And I always found that those were very, very satisfying and fulfilling projects to do. Right? I didn't think I'd be able to do it. I put my heart and soul into it, and before you knew it, great things came out of it. And what became even more exciting is when other people participated.

嗯。

Mhm.

而我能帮忙掌舵，让他们所有人也能从中找到快乐和成就感。我们有一种做法，跟——你听说过 The Table Group 吗？

And I was able to help steer the ship where all of them would also find joy and fulfillment out of things. And we have this kind of thing that we do with—have you heard of The Table Group?

没有。

No.

有个叫 Patrick Lencioni 的人，他有个 Table Group。他讲的是团队的五种功能障碍。他们的做法是把人带进一个房间，然后问他们：“除了现在这份工作，你做过的最有满足感的工作是什么？最有成就感的一份工作是什么？为什么？”通常大家会轮流说。然后他们问的第二个问题是——我记不清确切的措辞了——但第二个问题大概是：“跟我们说说——跟这个团队说说一件别人都不知道的、关于你自己的事。”然后从领导者开始。所以我通常会把这些人请来给我的团队做，我先讲我的故事，然后每个人轮流讲，不知不觉你就会发现每个人都有故事。等走完这一整圈，你会发现人们最有收获的经历，不是赚最多钱的那些，也不是积累最多名望的那些，而是那些他们觉得目标几乎不可能实现、一群人共同经历艰难、最后走出来并真正达成目标的经历。那些才是最难忘的时刻。这个练习我现在已经做了大概八九次，在我组建的每一次领导团队会议上。

There's a guy named Patrick Lencioni who has a table group. He talks about the five dysfunctions of a team. And what they do is they'll bring people in a room and they'll actually ask them, "Other than the current job, what's the most satisfying job you've had? A fulfilling job that you've had. And why?" And typically you'll go around, you know. And then the second question they ask is—and I can't remember the exact phrasing of the questions—but the second question they'll ask is "Tell us—tell this team something about yourself that no one else knows about you." And then they'll start with the leader. And so I've usually brought these people in for my teams, and I'll start with my story, and then everyone goes in, and before you know it you realize that everyone has a story. And once you go through that entire circle, you find that the most rewarding experiences people have had are not the ones that made them the most money, not the ones that accumulated the most fame. They were the ones where they felt like they had a goal that was almost impossible to achieve. There was a group of people that went through collective hardship and came out the other side and actually achieved that goal. Those were the most memorable moments. I've done this exercise now like eight or nine times in every leadership team meeting that I've formed.

那你的故事是什么？

And what was yours?

我想想我在 EMC 的经历——如果回想一下，除了现在这份工作，我做过的每一份工作，我们都承担过非常大胆的目标，那些我们原以为根本完不成的目标。

I think if I think about my experiences I had at EMC—like if I think about, other than my current job, every job that I've had, we have taken on very audacious goals that we never thought we'd be able to get done.

好。

Okay.

而团队凝聚起来、真正把它完成，那种满足感无与伦比。我在 EMC 有过，在 Box 有过，在 Cisco 也有过很多次。所以我觉得人们享受这个——这就是为什么有人去爬珠峰，哪怕死掉的概率相当高。人就是喜欢挑战。想去做前人没做过的事，这是人的天性。

And the team coming together and actually accomplishing that has been superbly fulfilling. So I had that at EMC, I had that at Box. I've had multiple instances of that at Cisco. And so I feel like people enjoy—that's why they climb Mount Everest, you know, even though there's a pretty high likelihood that you might die. People like the challenge. It's just innate in humans to want to go out and do something that's not been done before.

对。

Right.

我觉得这是一个需要记住的重要动态。所以从领导力的角度回答你的问题，我发现那种指明一个“真北”、和团队一起卷起袖子说“我们一起去把它拿下”的方面，在商业中是非常非常有成就感的体验。这也是为什么我不把工作当成工作。我觉得工作是我的逃避，我觉得它非常令人满足。我爱工作。我爱来上班。

And I feel like that's an important dynamic to keep in mind. So from a leadership standpoint, to answer your question, I found those kind of aspects of pointing to a true north, working with a team, rolling up the sleeves and saying let's go achieve this together, to be a very, very gratifying experience in business, which is why I don't think of work as work. I feel like work is my escape and I find it to be very gratifying. I love work. I love coming into work.

是啊，太好了。

Yeah, that's great.

是啊，我很幸运。

Yeah. I'm very lucky.

这是每个人的梦想，对吧？是啊。

Everybody's dream, right? Yeah.

我觉得——顺便说一句，有时候我也会讨厌去上班，因为时势不同了，或者工作上有什么不顺，或者办公室政治太厉害。

I think it's—if you—there are times, by the way, that I've hated going into work because the times are different or something's not working well at work or the politics is too high.

你对年轻人有什么建议？比如，当我 50 岁的时候，我希望自己热爱来上班。

What would be your advice to young people who want, you know, okay, when I'm 50 years old, I want to love coming to work?

我想说，你知道，就像科比·布莱恩特最近写的一段很棒的话，完美地捕捉了这一点：当我们被要求去做某件事时，我们总是太专注于成功的结果，以至于忘记了努力在于达到目标的过程。但如果你学会做枯燥的工作，遵循做枯燥工作的过程，并在平凡中找到乐趣，通过练习真正完善你想成为的样子，那么结果远不如达到目标的过程那样有回报。

I'd say that, you know, like Kobe Bryant had this great thing that he wrote recently that captured it so perfectly, which is when he asked to do something that we all get so focused on the outcome of success that we forget that the hard work is in the process of getting there. But if you learn to do the boring work and follow the process of doing the boring work and enjoy and find joy in the mundane and really perfect through practice what you want to actually become, the outcome's nowhere near as rewarding as the process of getting there.

嗯。

Mhm.

所以我对刚入行的人的建议是：不要过度执着于，你知道，我最近发了类似的东西，有个 25 岁的人告诉我，我需要在 30 岁之前成为亿万富翁。你看错指标了。

And so my advice to people that are just coming in would be: don't get overly fixated on, you know, I posted something like this recently where they, you know, they 25-year-old that tells me I need to become a billionaire by the time I'm 30. You're kind of looking at the wrong metric.

嗯。

Mhm.

顺便说一句，这并不意味着我不想要十亿美元，但我不确定那是否真的能让你感到满足。但如果你去做一些事情，十亿美元在某个时候可能会被拿走。但你学到的东西是拿不走的。所以实际上你拥有更持久的东西。钱会积累，我认为钱真的很重要，我认为它给你自由，在我看来钱是自由的工具。拥有它非常重要。但不要让你的一生被它支配。让你的一生被走出去、从学习和成就中获得快乐和满足、产生影响以及做所有这些事情所支配。我觉得这一代人错过了，因为我们前进的速度太快了，有时候需要 10,000 小时才能完善某件事。

By the way, that doesn't mean that I wouldn't love a billion dollars, but I'm not sure if that'll actually get you fulfilled. But if you do something, the billion dollars can be taken away from you at some point in time. But what you learn can't be taken away from you. So actually you have something a little bit more durable. And the money will accumulate and I think the money is really important and I think it gives you freedom and money is a vehicle for freedom in my mind. It's very important to have. But don't have your entire life be dictated by that. Have your life be dictated by going out and having the joy and the fulfillment from the learning and accomplishing and having an impact and doing all of those things. And I feel like this generation has missed out because of the speed at which we're moving, that sometimes it takes 10,000 hours to perfect something.

对。

Right.

我的意思是，我不知道你做这行多久了，但我猜你已经有了你的重复练习。你会随着重复练习而变得更好。你做的第一次采访可能不如你上次做的好。只是因为随着时间的推移你变得更好了。我觉得现在进入职场的人并不清楚重复练习的价值，我觉得我们有责任让他们明白，不是所有事情都来得快

And I mean, I don't know how long you've been doing this, but my guess is that you've had your reps. And you get better with the reps. Your first interview that you might have done might not be as good as the last one that you did. Just because you've gotten better at it over time. And I feel like I don't think that the value of the reps is as clear to the people that are coming into the workforce right now and I feel like we owe it to them to understand that not everything comes in quick

对。

Right.

而容易，有时候你失败一点是好事。詹森说的“我希望你受苦”很有分量。

and easy and sometimes you failing a little bit is a good thing. And that there's a lot of gravity in what Jenson says, I wish you suffering.

嗯。

Mhm.

因为那才是让你变得更好的原因。那才是塑造品格的东西。

Because that's what makes you better. That's what builds character.

技术不会停滞不前，塑造未来的公司也不会。摩根大通的技术投资银行团队与各个增长阶段的技术领导者合作，将深厚的行业专业知识、全球视野和摩根大通的全部能力带入他们最重要的战略决策中。从筹集资本和驾驭并购到了解重塑技术格局的力量，摩根大通的银行家将行业专业知识与来自市场行业和全球经济的洞察相结合，帮助客户将雄心转化为下一步。了解更多信息，请访问 jpmorgan.com/techib。现在，让我们回到节目。所以我稍后会谈论 AI，但既然你提到了 AI 承诺要消除的工作的枯燥，如果确实如此，那些人如何达到你的位置，就像你必须建立在那些无聊的日子之上？

Technology doesn't stand still, neither do the companies shaping what comes next. J.P. Morgan's technology investment banking team works alongside technology leaders at every stage of growth, bringing deep industry expertise, global perspective, and the full capabilities of J.P. Morgan to their most important strategic decisions. From raising capital and navigating M&A to understanding the forces reshaping the technology landscape, J.P. bankers combine sector expertise with insights drawn from across market industries and the global economy, helping clients turn ambition into what's next. Learn more at jpmorgan.com/techib. Now, let's get back to the episode. So I'm going to talk about AI in a few moments, but since you brought up sort of the tedium of work that AI sort of promises to get rid of, if that's the case that it does, how do those people get to where you are in terms of like kind of that you have to build upon these sort of boring days?

我不认为 AI 会消除枯燥。像平凡重复的工作可能会被 AI 消除。但学习的过程和内化的过程，我不认为 AI 会从你身上夺走。

I don't think like the tedium gets rid of with AI. Like the mundane repetitive work might get rid of with AI. But the process of learning and the process of internalizing, I don't think AI takes that away from you.

好的。

Okay.

你知道，事实上，我觉得这是人们犯的一大错误之一：他们完全把某件事委托给 AI，而没有真正感到学习它的责任。

You know, in fact, I feel like that's one of the big mistakes people make is they fully delegate something to AI without actually feeling the responsibility to learn it.

嗯。

Mhm.

就像，不，你想学习，快乐来自学习。所以如果你用 AI 来学习，它会刺激和激发你。如果你用 AI 来不学习，

It's like, no, you want to learn the joy comes from learning. And so if you use AI to learn, it's going to stimulate and excite you. If you use AI to not learn,

对。

Right.

并避免学习，老兄，在某个时候你实际上真的犯了一个错误，因为

and avoid learning, man, at some point in time you're actually really making a mistake because

嗯。

Mhm.

这是一套伟大的技术和工具，让你能够以以前无法做到的不连续方式学习。例如，两年前当我得到这份工作时，我永远无法完成我的工作。给我这份工作没有理由，因为有很多领域我完全不知道。查克下了一个赌注。幸运的是结果很好，但也可能相反。但在他下的赌注中，他说：‘好吧，你将负责我生产的所有产品。’但查克，我对网络一无所知，而我们是一家网络公司。他实际上问了我那个，我说：‘是的，但我对很多其他领域也一无所知，我随着时间的推移学会了它们。所以我会想办法学会它。’如果不是因为 AI，我不可能像那样快速学会那些领域。但如果我完全外包我的学习，说：‘我不需要为它建立直觉。我只要去让 AI 做就行了。’我不认为——我甚至不确定那是我们想要的生活方式。

this is a great set of technologies and tools to allow you the ability to learn in discontinuous ways that you could not do before. Like for example, I would have never been able to get my job done 2 years ago when I was given this job. There was no rationale for giving me the job because there was a bunch of areas that I had no idea about. And Chuck placed a bet. Luckily it worked out well, but it could have gone the other way. But in that bet that he placed, he said, 'Okay, you're going to run all products I make.' But Chuck, I don't know nothing about networking and we're a networking company. He actually asked me that and I said, 'Yeah, but I'd never known anything about bunch of other areas and I learned it over time. And so I'll just figure out a way to learn it.' I would not have been able to learn those areas as fast as I did if it weren't for AI. But if I had outsourced my learning completely and said, 'I don't need to build an instinct for it. I'm just going to go ask someone to do it in AI.' And I don't think that I'm not even sure that's how we want to live life.

对。

Right.

我们不需要在没有 AI 的情况下生活。就像 AI 是我们拥有的伟大工具。我们应该实际使用它并在其上构建，这样你就可以站在 AI 的肩膀上，去完成比原本能完成的更多的事情。我实际上觉得不幸的是，我们对 AI 变得愤世嫉俗，而我们除了保持兴奋之外别无他法，同时牢记它有风险。

We don't need to go live without AI. Like AI is a great tool that we have. We should actually use that and build on top of that so you can stand on the shoulder of AI to go out and accomplish more than what you could have accomplished otherwise. And I actually find it unfortunate that we're getting cynical about AI when we have nothing but to stay excited about it while keeping in mind that there are risks with it.

嗯，我的意思是，部分原因是一些主要领导人

Well, I mean, part of the reason is is that some of the major leaders

我知道。

I know.

把它放在我们腿上让我们担心。

put it in our lap for us to worry about.

我认为暴露风险是一回事。全面否定这项技术是另一回事。我觉得那是

I think it's one thing to have exposed the risks. It's another thing to wholesale be negative about the tech. And I feel like that's

我们只需要改变那种叙事。

We just have to change that narrative.

对。

Right.

我只是不认为这对人类有帮助。

I just don't think it's helpful for humanity.

对。

Right.

这对我们的国家也没有帮助，因为我们的国家在某个领域处于领先地位，而我们突然开始认为这不是一件好事。

And it's not helpful for our country because our country is the leader in something that we have all of a sudden started to think is not a good thing.

关键在于，我们领先的领域将决定我国未来的经济成功和国家安全。因此，我们应该以积极而非消极的态度来认识这一点，但也不要自欺欺人地认为风险不存在，而实际上它们确实存在。我们应该去缓解这些风险。

And the thing is that what we are a leader in is going to determine economic success and national security for our country moving forward. So we should internalize that in a positive light rather than a negative light, but not be delusional about the risks that we don't think exist when they actually do exist. And we should just mitigate those risks.

是啊，我只是觉得普通美国人很难知道他们现在该如何管理这种风险。我的意思是，这似乎是领导者的责任。

Yeah, I just think it's hard for the average American to know how they're now supposed to manage that risk. I mean, it seems like it's the responsibility of the leaders.

我认为是这样。我认为是这样。我认为我们必须更好地进行教育，同时又不让大家恐慌。

I think so. I think so. I think we have to do a much better job of educating without getting everyone freaked out.

对。

Right.

你知道，如果你思考领导力，领导力的一个核心特质就是在逆境和真正挑战的时期。领导者展现出稳健的手腕非常重要。对吧？你一直都能学到这一点。就像人们常说的，你必须偏执但不要恐慌。

And you know, like if you think about leadership, one of the things that is a core trait of leadership is in times of adversity and in times of real challenge. It's really important that the leaders show a steady hand. Right? And you learn this all the time. Like the people that you have to be paranoid but not panicked.

对。

Right.

你必须响应迅速但不要反应过度。我觉得这是领导力的一个重要特征。我认为这是我们现在在这场变革中应该展现的重要特征，因为这场变革可能会让人非常焦虑。而它之所以如此令人焦虑，部分原因是我们把它弄得很可怕。我们实际上应该均衡地展示好处和风险，因为如果我们每次都说这东西可能会杀死我们，我希望我们也能谈到这样一个事实：这东西可以让我们活得更久，甚至因为这项技术而实现生命的无限延长，我们可以治愈所有疾病，我们可以走出去做那些消除贫困所需的事情，我们可以确保教育得到传播，让每个人无论身在何处都有平等的机会参与经济。所有这些现在也因为 AI 而成为可能。但我们却固守一种单一的叙事，我认为这没有帮助。我认为我们应该确保我们……但我也认为对风险自欺欺人是不对的。我认为风险是真实的。我们应该牢记这些风险。但我们不应该把它弄得如此二元对立。

You have to be responsive but not reactive. And I feel like that's an important characteristic in leadership. I think that's an important characteristic that we should exhibit right now during this shift that's going on because this shift can be very anxiety-provoking for people. And part of the reason it's so anxiety-provoking is because we have made it very scary. And we should actually evenly show the upside and the risks because if for every time that we say this thing could kill us, I wish we also talked about the fact that this thing could allow us to live an infinite life where we could actually have perpetual extension of life because of this and we could cure all diseases and we could go out and do the things that we needed to do to end poverty and we could make sure that education gets disseminated so that everyone has an equal opportunity to participate in the economy regardless of where they are. And all of those things now are possible because of AI as well. But we actually have fixated on a single narrative and I don't think that's helpful. I think we should make sure that we... But I don't think it's okay to be delusional about the risks either. I think the risks are real. We should keep those in mind. But we should not make sure that we make it such a binary.

所以你最终加入了 Cisco，多少年了？

So you ended up at Cisco at how many years?

到现在六年了。

Six years now.

六年前。

Six years ago.

这是我做过的最好的职业决定。

Best career decision I've made.

好的。看着 Cisco 真是令人惊叹，对吧？因为 Cisco 曾是互联网时代的典型代表。

Okay. And it's amazing to watch Cisco, okay? Because Cisco was sort of the poster child for the Internet era.

互联网时代。

Internet era.

而且它，你知道，一度损失了 89% 的市值。它曾是世界上最有价值的公司。然后你们不只是生存下来或进化了。你们现在蓬勃发展，并且是 AI 基础设施建设的主要参与者。那么，你知道，给公司的建议是什么？我的意思是，人们认为决定未来很难，但有时实际上是放下过去。

And it, you know, at one point in time lost 89% of its value. It was once the most valuable company in the world. And then you guys didn't just survive or evolve. You're now thriving and now a major player in the AI infrastructure build. So how does it, you know, what's advice to companies that, I mean, people think that determining the future is hard, but it's actually sometimes letting go of the past.

这是一个非常有见地的问题。我的看法是，你永远无法对抗大趋势。你必须把它当作顺风。因为你知道，维克多·雨果有句名言：你无法阻止时机已到的事情。无论有没有 Cisco，AI 都会发生。问题只是 Cisco 能否让它变得更好？甚至不是 Cisco 能否受益？而是 Cisco 能否让它变得更好？Cisco 能否让 AI 的结果比没有 Cisco 时更好？我们能否带来足够独特的视角，只有 Cisco 才能做到，从而真正帮助这场运动对社会产生净积极影响。如果你能做到这一点，商业成功自然会随之而来。你知道。而事实证明，在这个特定情况下，看，我们错过了云浪潮。我们在云浪潮中做得不够好，我们从中吸取的教训之一是，你必须确保你理解行业中正在发生的结构性转变，你必须理解可能由此产生的颠覆。你还必须理解你将在其中扮演的角色。而角色对我们来说变得非常清晰：如果你相信智能体将无处不在，AI 将帮助每个人做他们以前做梦都想不到的事情。如果你相信这将需要相当多的算力基础设施，那么对我们来说就很清楚：如果这些算力不联网，你就不会真正拥有一个可持续的基础设施来惠及 AI。而我们恰好是世界上最好的网络公司。我们恰好是世界上最好的安全公司之一。我们恰好是世界上最好的可观测性公司之一。为什么我们不能利用这些能力，让它们成为这场运动的一部分，从而成为淘金热中的“卖铲子”公司。我们不必被称为 AI 公司。我们必须被称为 AI 时代的 AI 基础设施公司，能够让 AI 充分发挥其潜力。我们决定这样做，然后保持商业模式的持久性，并非常仔细地考虑我们想要参与生态系统的哪些特定部分。然后建立护城河，其中一些是在过去两年中建立的，还有一些我们很幸运，在我任职之前就做出了决定，例如，为网络交换机和路由器等构建自己的芯片。如果我们没有芯片，我们来自超大规模客户的收入将为零。但因为我们有芯片，而且市场需要芯片供应商的选择，因为只有少数几家能制造，他们说如果 Cisco 能真正提供，那将是一件好事。于是我们成为了所需网络设备和基础设施的非常可行的提供商和供应商。而现在你……所以我们在两年前决定，我们说：“让我们向市场提供一个数字。第一年我们将实现 10 亿美元的订单。只是为了让大家有方向感，因为三年前我们说我们是 AI 的一部分时，没人把我们当回事。”

It's a very insightful question. The way I see it is you can never fight a mega trend. You have to use it as a tailwind. Because you know, Victor Hugo had the saying that you can't stop something whose time has come. AI is going to happen with or without Cisco. It's just a matter of can Cisco make it better? And it's not even about can Cisco benefit? Can Cisco make it better? Can Cisco make the outcome from AI better than what it would have been without Cisco? Can we bring a unique enough perspective that is only something that Cisco can do that can actually help this movement become a net positive for society. And if you are able to do that, the commercial success actually follows. You know. And it turns out that in this particular case, look, we missed the cloud wave. We didn't do it as well in the cloud wave and one of the lessons we learned from that was you have to make sure that you understand the tectonic shifts that are happening in the industry and you have to understand the disruption that could happen from it. And you also have to understand the role that you're going to play in it. And the role became very clear for us that if you believe that agents are going to be everywhere and AI is going to help everyone do things that they'd never dreamt of doing before. And if you believe that that is going to require a fair amount of compute infrastructure, it became pretty clear to us that if that compute does not get networked, you won't really have a durable infrastructure that will benefit AI. And we happen to be the world's best networking company in the world. We happen to be one of the finest security companies in the world. We happen to be one of the world's best observability companies. Why can't we use those capabilities and make them part of that movement so that we become the picks and shovels company during the gold rush. We don't have to be known as an AI company. We have to be known as an AI infrastructure company for the AI era that can allow AI to go out and progress at its fullest potential. And we decided to do that and then had durability in our business model and got thought very carefully about which particular parts of the ecosystem we wanted to participate in. And then built out the moat, some of it during the past 2 years and some of it we were lucky enough that we had made a decision way before my time, for example, to build out our own silicon for the networking switches and routers and all of that. And had we not had the silicon, we would have had zero revenue from hyperscalers. But because we had the silicon and the market needed choice in silicon providers, because there's only a handful of them that build it, they said if Cisco could actually provide it, that would be a great thing. And so we then became a very viable provider and supplier of the network apparatus and the infrastructure that was needed. And now what you... So we decided 2 years ago, we said, "Let's go provide a number to the market. We'll do a billion dollars in orders in the first year. Just so that we can get everyone oriented saying because no one was taking us seriously when we said we were part of AI 3 years ago."

好的。就像，是啊，Cisco。就像，你知道，这很有趣，但我不认为情况会是这样。

Okay. Like, yeah, Cisco. It's like, you know, it's interesting, but I don't think that's going to be the case.

所以，我们说，让我们定一个数字，让我们对自己负责。我们并不完全确定能够达到那个数字。我们说，就 10 亿美元吧，这是一个有意义且重要的数字。第一年我们最终做到了 23 亿，而不是 10 亿。所以，第二年我们说，让我们做 50 亿。翻倍。我们在 26 财年最终达到了 93 亿。所以，我们在这些超大规模客户的 AI 工作负载方面从 0 做到了 93 亿。

So, we said, let's put a number down and let's hold ourselves accountable. We didn't have all certainty that we'd be able to make that number. We said, let's have a billion dollars, something that was meaningful and material. We ended up the first year 2.3 instead of a billion. So, the second year we said, let's do 5 billion. Double it. We ended up in fiscal year '26 at 9.3 billion. So, we went from 0 to 9.3 billion in AI-based workloads in these hyperscalers.

这让市场意识到，哇，这不只是一家空口说白话的公司。这是一家真正在展示成功、拥有持久技术的公司，能够真正推动这场运动。我认为我们还有很多这样的牌可以打，我们能够做到。

And that made the market realize, oh wow, this is not just a company waving their hands in an empty way. This is a company that's actually demonstrating success and has durable technology that can actually help in this movement. And I think we have many such plays that are left that we will be able to do.

嗯，你知道吗？说实话，我还想再聊一个小时，但我就用一个简短的问题来收尾吧。你门口大概排着长队，每个人都想从你这里得到些什么。无论是你的员工、投资人、董事会、孩子、你的女儿。那么什么才是完美的一天？没有人需要你。完美的一天是什么样的？

Well, you know what? Honestly, I want to talk for about another hour, but I will just end on a quick question here. So, you probably have lines of people out your door. Everybody wants something from you. Whether it's your employees, investors, board, children, your daughter. What though is then the perfect day? No one needs you. What is the perfect day?

这真是个好问题。完美的一天是什么？我会说，是我感觉自己学到了东西，今天比昨天进步了 1.27%。因为我有一条规则：如果你每天进步 1.27%，一年后你就会强 100 倍。所以，你唯一应该竞争的人就是你自己。你能从昨天到今天进步百分之一又四分之一吗？所以，完美的一天就是你学到了东西，你变得更好了。

It's such a great question. What is a perfect day? I'd say it is me feeling like I learned something and got 1.27% better today than I was yesterday. Because I have this rule, which is if you're 1.27% better every day, in a year you're 100x better. And so, the only person you should be competing with is yourself. Can you get to be a percent and a quarter better from yesterday to today? So, a perfect day would be you learned and you got better.

完美的一天会是，你知道，我有一个十几岁的女儿。有些日子她很想和我交流、好好聊天。有些日子她不想。我应该更明白，因为她们在成长过程中经历很多。我不该往心里去，但天哪，我告诉你，当她们真的好好跟你说话、花些时间陪你时，那感觉太棒了。我女儿说“嘿，爸爸，你想带我去吃冰淇淋吗？”那种日子太棒了。所以，那会是完美一天中很棒的一部分。

A perfect day would be, you know, I have a teenage daughter. There are days when she wants to engage and talk to me really well. There are days when she wants to not. I should know better because they're going through a lot during their development process. That I shouldn't take it personally, but man, can I tell you it's amazing when they do talk to you well and they spend some time. And the days of my daughter says, "Hey Dad, you want to take me to ice cream?" And it's great. So, that would be a great part of a perfect day.

我认为完美一天的另一个部分是，你感觉自己让别人变得更好了。再说一次，这不是关于对他们好，或者确保这是一场人气竞赛，你只是用虚假的赞美来安抚他们。而是因为你的参与，你真正推动了他们的成长。这是一点。

I think another piece of a perfect day is when you feel like you've made someone else better. And once again, it's not about being nice to them or making sure that it's a popularity contest where you've just given them, you've placated them with false compliments or anything. It's you genuinely progressed their development as a result of your participation in their growth. That's one.

我想另一点是思科。当客户走过来说“我们用了你们的产品，我们团队非常喜欢。我们做到的比之前能做的多得多”，或者“抱歉我没怎么跟你联系，但我们没遇到任何问题，一切都运行得很好”，我觉得这非常令人满足。这些都是完美一天中很棒的部分。

I think the other one is Cisco. Like I find it very gratifying when a customer comes and says, "We used your products and our team is loving it. And we're doing so much more than we could have done than we had done before." Or hey, "I'm sorry I haven't talked to you much, but we haven't had any issues. Everything's working just fine." All of those are kind of great parts of a perfect day.

另一件我其实做得不够多、现在正非常努力去做的事，是在日常工作中保持健身，比如锻炼。早上 6 点锻炼或者晚上锻炼，但无论做什么，只要有一些体育活动就好。然后完美一天的很大一部分是，你有一些朋友可以一起开怀大笑。所以和家人一起开怀大笑。我想起我妈妈。所有这些，它们都构成了美好的一天。

The other thing that I've actually not done as much, I'm trying very hard right now, is fitness in the regime of day-to-day work, so like working out. Work out at 6:00 in the morning or work out at night, but whatever you do, just get some kind of physical activity. And then a large part of the perfect day is like you have some friends that you share some laughs with. So share some laughs with your family. I think about my mom. Those all things, those are all kind of, they make for a great day.

我这辈子拥有的完美日子远远多于不完美的日子，所以这方面我没什么可抱怨的。我觉得自己非常幸运。然后我也非常物质主义。我喜欢设计精良的东西。所以如果我接触到一件设计得非常好的东西，我觉得那对我来说就是完美的一天。它向我展示了别人对工艺的自豪。

And I've had many many more perfect days than I've had not in my life, so I have no complaints on that front. I think I've been very lucky. And then I'm also like superbly materialistic. I love things that are well designed. And so if I get exposed to a thing that's really well designed, I feel like that's a perfect day for me. It shows me the pride of craftsmanship of someone else.

你是爱车之人吗？

Are you the car person?

我什么都爱。我真的喜欢汽车、衣服、手表、家具，我就是什么都喜欢。原因是我发现，有人对细节倾注心血，这是你能给客户的终极尊重，等于说“我们如此在意，以至于连你看不到的地方都精益求精”。

I'm everything person. I truly love cars, clothes, watches, furniture, I just like everything. The reason for that is because I find like there's an attention to detail that gets sweated on by someone that is the ultimate form of respect you can give to your customer, saying, "We cared about this so much that we sweated the details even on the things that you don't see."

比如我这辈子最敬佩的公司之一是 Apple。因为 Apple 有时会做一些你甚至看不到的事情，但他们在细节上精益求精。比如你打开手机，他们布局手机内部的方式非常一丝不苟，尽管永远不会有人看到。当你打开 Apple 的包装盒时，如果你注意到那种吸力，需要花点时间才能打开。他们这样做的原因是，为打开盒子时看到的东西制造期待感，并带有惊喜元素。

Like one of the most admired companies in my life is Apple. Because there are things that Apple does sometimes that you don't even see, but they have sweated the details. Like if you open up the phone, the way that they've laid out the phone is very meticulously laid out even though no one's going to ever see it. When you open a box from Apple, if you notice the suction, takes a while to open it up. The reason they do that is so that it creates anticipation for what you're going to see when you open the box and there's a surprise element to it.

我觉得那些对细节的关注，向客户表达了极大的感激，展现了极大的尊重和敬意，等于对客户说“我们如此在意你，以至于真的想让你脸上露出笑容、在情感上打动你”。这就是为什么我如此喜欢设计精良的东西，我觉得如果他们设计得好，我就欠他们钱。我必须买。我的家人不喜欢这样，因为他们说“你买太多破烂了，别买了”。

And I feel like those attention elements of detail show a tremendous amount of gratitude towards a customer and show a tremendous amount of respect and honor your customer for saying, "We care about you so much that we actually wanted to put a smile on your face and move you emotionally." That's why I like well-designed things so much and I feel like I owe them money if they design something well. I have to buy it. My family doesn't like it because they're like, "You're buying too much crap. Like, stop buying stuff." So.

我喜欢。那么，祝你拥有完美的一天。

I love it. Well, here's to wishing you a perfect day.

非常感谢。谢谢你邀请我上节目。

Thank you so much. Thanks for having me on the show.

谢谢。

Thank you.