直觉、AI 与群体思维：与 Jason 的对话

嘿，Jason。

Hey Jason.

嗨，Jonathan。很高兴见到你。

Hi Jonathan. Great to have you.

我们先来个简单的热身问题。你擅长回邮件还是不擅长？

We'll start with a trivial icebreaker. Are you good at email or are you bad at email?

糟透了。

Terrible.

我觉得我有 25000 封未回复的邮件。

I think I have 25,000 unanswered emails.

嗯，好吧。你真的会回复任何邮件吗？

Um, okay. Do you actually answer to any email ever?

好问题。我不想做出承诺。

Good question. I don't want to make promises.

嗯，不，我会的。只是，呃，实际上，我有个朋友搞了个 AI 工具，现在帮我处理很多事情。所以非常有用。

Well, no, I do. I just um actually I um one of my friends worked on this like one in an AI thing that's sort of just handling a lot of stuff for me right now. So very useful.

那挺好的。

That's nice.

是的。

Yes.

好吧，你现在总算能回一些邮件了。我们这儿有不少问题要问你。流程非常简单。

Well, you get to answer some emails now. And so we got a number of questions for you. The way it works is super easy.

你可以挑一个你感兴趣的问题。我会大声读出来，你想回答多久就回答多久。

You get to pick whichever one uh speaks to you. I'll read it out loud. You you'll answer it for as long as you wish.

嗯，我想我们可以从头开始。

Well, we can just start from the top, I suppose.

好的。Baron 有个问题：为什么养猫的人更擅长设计？

Okay. So we have Baron with a question that is why are cat people better designers?

为什么养猫的人更厉害？我是说，你见过 Karl Lagerfeld 吗？

Why are cat people better? I mean have you met Carl Laggerfeld?

我没见过，但是

I have not but

我也没见过，而且我觉得我们谁也没机会见到他了。

I have not either and I don't think any of us is going to get that honor at this point.

不，很遗憾。嗯，你知道，我不确定养猫的人是不是更好的设计师。我只是觉得，养猫的人往往更喜欢花时间思考，而这是很多有创造力的人共有的特质。

No, unfortunately. Um you know I don't know if cat people are better designers. I just think that people with cats tend to prefer spending time with their thoughts and you know that that that's a trait that a lot of creative people have.

嗯，所以我不确定养猫的人是否一定更擅长设计，但我知道 Baron 有几只非常漂亮的猫，我曾经见过。

Um so I I don't know that cat people are better designers necessarily, but I know that Baron has very beautiful cats that I once cat.

你自己养猫吗？

Do you have your own cats?

哦，我当然有一只。他叫 Hermes。

Oh, of course I have one. He's called Hermes.

哦，这名字不错。关于这个名字有个有趣的故事。大约在 2018、2019 年，我做过一个叫 Mercury OS 的项目。我当时特别痴迷于“流体界面”这个概念。我在做研究时，因为我喜欢行星，所以想到水星是太阳系里离太阳最近的行星。我的想法是，如果太阳是你的意图，那么界面就是离你的意图最近的东西。然后我查了一下，水星对应的希腊神是 Hermes，罗马神是 Mercury。

Oh, that's a good name. And the funny story from about the name uh so like in like 2018 2019 I worked on a thing called Mercury OS right I was like really obsessed with like this idea of like fluid chrome and then I was doing research and Mercury is like I I love planets so Mercury is the first uh closest to the sun in the solar system and the idea is like if the sun is your intent the the UI this is the closest to your intent right and then I was looking into It's one of them is Greek, one of them is Roman, but like the the other version of Mercury is Hermes,

就是信使之神。然后我看着我的猫，他是灰色的，其实是太空灰。所以我把他抱起来，

the messenger god god. And then I was like the my cat's like he's gray and and and I he's like space gray actually. So I picked him up

我看着我的朋友说：“我能叫他 Mercury 吗？”朋友说：“别用你那破极客项目给他起名，兄弟。”我说：“好吧，好吧，好吧。”那就叫 Hermes。我觉得叫他 Hermes 更有趣，因为

and I looked at my friend. I'm like can I call him Mercury? My friend's like, "Don't name him after your freaking like nerd project, man." I'm like, "Okay, fine, fine, fine." Like Hermes. And I'm like, you know, it's funnier to call him Hermes because of the

当然。

of course

他是一只流浪猫，不是什么高贵品种。但我觉得这挺有趣的。所以

he's like a stray, so he's not like high blood, fancy, whatever. But I just thought it was funny. So

不错。所以听起来 Baron 的前提根本就是错的。

nice. So it sounds like Baron's premise is fundamentally wrong.

嗯，对与错的本质是什么？

Um, what is the nature of right and wrong?

我喜欢媒体培训。太有趣了。

I love media training. It's so much fun.

好的，那么流程是这样的：我们要回复每个人。我会替你回复 Baron。如果你想，你可以回答下一个问题。呃，我只要按住这个蓝色按钮说，

Okay, so okay, the way this works is we're going to respond to each of those people. I'm going to respond to Baron on your behalf. If you want, you can take the next one. Uh, I'm just gonna press and hold this blue button and say,

“嘿，Baron。嗯，我希望你对 Jason 的回答满意。”呃，顺便说一句，我是 Jonathan。嗯，Baron 是我们俩共同的朋友。

"Hey, Baron. Um, I hope you're satisfied with uh Jason answers." Uh, here. This is Jonathan, by the way. Um, Baron is a mutual friend of both of us.

酷。那我们发送它，然后继续下一个问题。

Cool. So, we're going to send it and now we get to move on to the next question.

嗯，这里有什么吸引你的吗？你想深入聊哪个？

Um, anything that strikes you here? Anything you want to go into?

嗯，我们为什么不从头开始？我们按顺序来，可以回答 Tyler 的问题。

Um, why don't we start? Why don't we do we just go down the stack? We can do Tyler.

好的。Tyler 有个非常切题的问题。你会怎么跟你奶奶解释“群体思维”是什么？

Sure. Okay. Tyler has a burning question uh very on theme. How would you explain what hive mind is to your grandma?

嗯，其实我爷爷奶奶在中国，我发现“群体思维”这个概念用中文很容易解释。我直接用中文解释可以吗？

Um well actually my my grand my grandparents are in China and I find that the hive mind idea is very easily expl explainable in Chinese. Should I just explain in Chinese?

可以，我觉得那太棒了。所以，你用了 AI。这就是怎么跟她解释。

Yes, I think that'd be awesome. So, you got the AI. That's kind of how to explain it to her.

好的。我在这儿耍了个小聪明。我按住了录音键。我们看看会发生什么。我现在完全不知道会发生什么。如果一切顺利，我们会得到中文回复。我不会说中文，你可以告诉我是否正确。

All right. So, I was sneaky here. I held the record button. We'll see what happened. I have no idea what's going to happen now. If all goes well, we'll have the Chinese response. I do not speak Chinese. You can tell me if it's correct.

差不多对吧。是的。

That's kind of correct. Yeah.

嗯，我能请你把它翻译成英文吗？

Um, is it okay for me to ask you to translate it to English?

当然。

Sure.

好的。把它翻译成英文。

Okay. translate it to English.

哇，太流畅了。简直像我们事先排练过一样。

Wow, that's so smooth. It's almost like we planned this.

我是说，我们并没有。

I mean, which we didn't.

呃，它就像一个爱八卦的 AI。你知道，她奶奶总说“他们说这个，他们说那个”。那么，“他们”是谁？群体思维就是“他们”，基本上就是所有人。就是八卦。这就是要点。

Uh, it's like a gossiping AI. You know, her grandma always says they say this, they say that. Well, who are they? Hive mind is they it's everyone basically. It's just gossiping. And that's the gist of it.

是的。好的，我要把它转回中文。当然。

Yes. Okay, I'm going to revert this back to Chinese. Sure.

然后我们把它发给 Tyler，让他去处理。

And we're just going to send it to Tyler and he can deal with it.

太好了。我们继续下一个问题。

Sweet. Let's go on to the next question.

嗯，我们为什么不回答“你穿的是什么，为什么？”

Um, why don't we do what are you wearing and why?

好的。呃，Camila 的穿搭检查。

Okay. Uh, fit check by Camila.

嗯哼。

Uhhuh.

请讲。

Go ahead.

你穿的是什么，为什么？我想这是 Rick Owens。里面是 Jean Paul Gaultier。这条裤子来自原宿的一家精品店，好像叫 Unconventional 之类的。然后这是 Margiela，这是 Makita 和 Wilhelm Bernhard 的合作款。

What are you wearing and why? I'm I think this is Rick Owens. Underneath it is Jamho Goautier. This is And then these pants are from a boutique in Harajuku. called I think it's called unconventional where something like you know um and then Margela and then this is um Makita and Wilhham Burnernhard collaboration

嗯，然后这是我的皮肤科医生。嗯，为什么我穿成这样？嗯，我觉得这很有趣。我现在不太打扮了。这更像是我过去打扮的方式。嗯，我记得年轻时，我在探索自己的时尚感。有人问我：“你穿什么万圣节服装会感觉很好？”我说：“火影忍者、黑客帝国、夏洛克·福尔摩斯、哈利·波特。”然后他们说：“所以，就是黑色垂坠的东西。”我说：“对。”然后我就这样发展出了自己的个人风格。所以我想，我穿这些是因为它们让我感觉像我自己。

um and then this is my dermatologist. Um why do I wear this? Well, I thought it'd be really funny. I I don't really dress up too much anymore. And this is more like how I used to dress up. Um, and I I think when I was young, someone I was trying to discover my sense of fashion. Someone was like, uh, you know, where like wear some like what are Halloween costumes that you feel very good in? And I was like, Naruto, Matrix, Sherlock Holmes, Harry Potter. And so like, okay, so like black drapey things. And I'm like, yes. And then that's sort of how I just develop my personal style. And so I I suppose I I'm wearing these things because they make me feel like myself.

那么，这是否意味着，如果你不再那么打扮，通常就不会感觉像自己了？

And so does that mean that usually you don't really feel like yourself if you don't dress up that much anymore?

我觉得我通过不同的角色来表达自己。嗯，特别是当我穿成这样时，我觉得这有助于我表达内心的想法，在这种风格下我更能表达自己。

I think there's different personas that I express myself through. Um, this particular when I wear things like this, I feel this helps me translate my inner thoughts into I'm more expressive in this style.

然后其他时候，你知道，今年我发现了叫牛仔裤的新东西。它们太酷了。

And then otherwise, like, you know, this year I discovered this new thing called jeans. They're so cool.

你不必每天干洗它们。是啊，太棒了。

You don't have to get them dry cleaned every day. Yeah, it's amazing.

是啊，非常好。你几乎不需要清洗它们。

Yeah, it's very nice. You barely need to clean them at all.

不，太棒了。嗯，所以，我不知道。

No, it's amazing. Um, so yeah, I don't know.

所以，你有比利时设计师，日本设计师，英国设计师。嗯，嗯，你觉得目前哪个国家的设计师最厉害？

So, so you got Belgian designers on, you got Japanese designers on, you got British designers on. Um, um, what do you think is the country with the best designers at this point?

我想起了我的媒体培训。嗯，开玩笑的。我不知道。有吗？

I'm remembering my media training. Um, I'm just kidding. I don't know that. Is there one?

我不知道。你觉得呢？

I don't know. What do you think?

你告诉我。嗯，好吧，我是比利时人。我只是在试探，比如当然比利时确实有像 entrop 6 这样的，他们有这些了不起的设计师，小国家，无聊透顶，但不知怎么的，衣服却很好，但我没得到我想要的。

You tell me. Um, well, I'm Belgian. I was just trying I was just fishing for like of course Belgium does like the entrop 6 like they have these amazing designers small country terribly boring somehow good good clothes but I didn't get what I wanted.

嗯，你知道，要回答这个问题，我们得深入探讨设计的本质是什么，这可能需要更长的时间。

Well you know to answer this question we then have to dive into a long conversation about what the nature of design is and that maybe it takes a longer time than.

好的，那么让我们回应 Camila，我要按住蓝色按钮，你想说什么就说吧。

Okay so so let's respond to Camila I'm going to press and hold the blue button and you should say whatever you want.

我可以对着麦克风说。

I can say it into the mic.

嗯，你可以说，是的。

Uh you can say it yep.

好的，我穿的是 Makita Menheim Burnernhard 我的脸，Rick Owens 和 Jean Goier 的上衣，然后是一家叫 unconventional 的日本精品店，我想是在原宿，然后是 Maison Margella 2024 秋冬系列，我想那是 Aliano 参与的最后一个系列，嗯，我穿这些是因为它们让我感觉像我自己。

Okay I'm wearing uh Makita Menheim Burnernhard my face Rick Owens Jean Goier on my my tops and then a Japanese boutique called unconventional I think in Harajuku and then Maison Margella fall winter 2024 which was the last collection I think Aliano worked on um and I'm wearing these things because they make me feel like myself.

是的。

Yeah.

太棒了。看看效果如何。名字很多，要弄对很多东西。天哪。我觉得我们搞定了。

Awesome. Let's see how that worked. That was a lot of names, a lot of things to get right. Oh my god. I think we got it.

是的。

Yeah.

太棒了。好了。我们要发送吗？

Amazing. All right. Should we send it?

是的。

Yeah.

太好了。嗯，我们去看下一个问题。看起来我们还有更多内容进来。这里有什么吸引你的吗？

Sweet. Um, let's go to the next question. Looks like we have more stuff coming in. Anything that strikes you here?

嗯，我们来回答 Joel 的问题。

Um, let's answer Joel's question.

是的，我喜欢这个问题。什么北极星？好的，Joel 又说是共同的朋友。我认为 Hivemind 的品牌和形象尤其特别，不用透露太多细节。你设定了哪些主题作为北极星？你如何判断某样东西（比如一张图片）达到了这些主题的正确程度？

Yes, I like that question. What north? Okay, Joel saying mutual friend again. I think Hivemind's brand and imagery in particular is very special without spilling too much sauce. What themes did you set as north stars and how did you decide when something i.e. an image had the right levels of those themes?

天哪。嗯，我几周前在一个播客里确实透露了很多细节。但嗯，我会说这很大程度上是一个制作和反应的过程。所以我们设定了主题吗？我们设定了。让我想想。我可以列举出来，比如禁忌、丑闻、争议、权力、权威、完美徽章、血肉、Alexander McQueen、异教仪式，嗯，主题相当多。甚至像战时宣传海报、波兰海报、古腾堡圣经，或者作者身份、印刷、版权和排版的概念。

Oh my god. Um I did spill a lot of the sauce on a podcast I did a few weeks ago actually. But um I would say it's a very much a process of making and reacting. So did we set themes? We did. Let's see. I can list them off like like taboo, uh, scandal, controversy, power, authority, prefect badges, um, flesh and blood, um, Alexander McQueen, uh, pagan ritual, uh, there were quite quite a bit of themes. Um even even like even like uh wartime propaganda posters or um uh Polish posters or um uh the Gutenberg Bible where or the idea of authorship and print and copons and typography.

所以有很多主题，而且，哦哦，还有，嗯，嗯，嗯，毒品和锐舞文化。

So there's a lot of themes and it's it's oh oh and also um um um drug and rave culture.

嗯哼。

Mhm.

Bergine。

Bergine.

是的。

Yep.

嗯，当然还有 Charlie XCX，还有麦当娜的《Confessions》。就像忏悔的概念。非常有趣。神圣与亵渎的越界。就像我们只是把图像放在一起。首先我们从网上拉取它们。我们互相发送，我和参与的设计师。我们来回发送图像，然后在某些时候，我们会退后一步，说，好吧，我得到了很多越界的能量。所以，所以有神圣与亵渎的元素。嗯，性和欲望绝对是我真正想强调的另一个主题，比如人体。嗯，我如何判断它们达到了正确的程度？我觉得你只是感觉到了。哦，我还真的希望它感觉荒诞和坎普。我告诉过，我说，我们会以非常坎普的方式使用这些图像和主题，因为我们不是，你知道，重金属邪教。我可能穿成这样，但实际上我没有，我真的没有怪癖。我真的没有，你知道，我没有极端的毒品偏好。我在日常生活中其实在很多方面都很平淡，但在艺术上却愿意冒很多风险。所以我们有很多，我们只是对事物做出反应，然后，是的。

Um Charlie XCX of course Madonna with confessions too. Like the idea of confession. Very interesting. Sacred and the profane transgression. Like we we just sort of put images together. First just we pulled them from the internet. We sent it to each other and me and the designers who worked on it. We sent images back and forth and then at certain levels of at certain points we would step back and go okay I'm getting lots of transgressive energy. So, so there's an element of the sacred and the profane. Um, sex and lust is definitely another theme that I really wanted to lean into, like the human body. Um, I how did I decide when they had the right levels of those themes? I think you just feel it. Oh, I also really wanted it to feel absurdist and camp. I told I was like, we're going to use a lot of the these images and these themes in a very campy way because we're not, you know, you know, a heavy metal cult. I might dress this way, but I actually I have I I don't really have kinks. I don't really have, you know, I I don't have like extreme like drug like preferences. I'm actually quite vanilla in a lot of ways in my daily life, but but then artistically like to take lots of risks. So then We had a lot of we just reacted to things and then Yep.

我想直觉对我来说就像肚子里的指南针，有时当它看到正确的东西时，它会勃起，这就是你知道的方式，这对我来说是一种非常本能的感觉。

I guess intuition to me is like a compass in your stomach that sometimes when it sees the right thing it gets an erection and that's how you know it's a very visceral thing for me.

嗯，这就是一些图像。然后对于相关的电影，嗯，最初我写的时候有点像在思考 Vogue 的 73 个问题或《办公室》，我们可能会在以后重新审视这些概念，但我当时非常想的是像 HBO 的《VEP》那样的。

Um and that's uh that's some of the imagery. And then for the film, which is related, um, originally I wrote it in sort of thinking about like Vogue 73 questions or like The Office or and we we might revisit some of those concepts down the line, but I was very much thinking like HBO like VEP.

就像嗯，我喜欢对事物有幽默感，我觉得把神圣与亵渎并列真的很有趣，比如非常严肃的检查投资者，然后像屌笑话，我觉得生活和人性的光辉正是通过矛盾显现出来的。

Like um I I like having a sense of humor y about things and I I think it's really funny to juxtapose like the sacred and the profane were like really serious check investors and then like dick jokes I think is like I I think life and humanity comes through the contradictions.

所以我想 Hivemind 的主要主题是通过辩证法或矛盾来寻求真理。

So I guess the primary theme of Hive mind is is sort of truth through um dialectics or truth through contradiction.

好的。嗯，你会说这是你迄今为止最个人化的作品吗？

Okay. Um and would you say this is your most personal work so far?

是的。

Yes.

至少对我来说感觉是这样。我问的就是这个。

That's what it feels like to me anyway. That's what I'm asking.

它非常非常风格化，当然，但也很诚实。就像很有趣，当我在做 dot 或甚至我过去的工作时，人们会说为什么你的设计作品看起来和你这个人如此不同，我总是说哦，不同是因为你知道这是科技，是不同的，然后我想为什么为什么为什么它如此不同，其实没那么不同，嗯，人们可以有不同的风格，并随着岁月演变，而 Hivemind 是一个相当有趣且有时有争议的想法，所以我们只是觉得好吧，争议本身这个想法就很有趣。

It's very very it's very stylized of course but it's also very honest. Like it's really funny like when I worked on dot or even my past work people would be like why does your design work look so different than who you are as a person and I was always like oh it's different because you know it's tech it's different and I'm like why why why is it so different it's not that different um people can have different styles and evolve over the over the years and hive mind is a pretty interesting and at times controversial idea so we just thought okay well the idea of controversy in and of itself is interesting.

是的。

Yep.

嗯，作为一个主题，嗯，我不介意透露一些细节。我觉得如果你不断创造新的东西，你就可以分享旧的东西。

Um as a theme, um I have no problem spilling some of the sauce. I think if you keep generating new sauce, you can spill your old sauce.

没错。是的。

That's right. Yeah.

是的。已经是旧闻了。嗯，而且，他们没有配方。嗯，呃，我要按住那个蓝色按钮。对 Joel 说几句话吧。

Yeah. Already old news. Um also, they don't have the recipe for the sauce. Um uh I'm going to press and hold that blue button. Just say a few words to Joel.

嘿 Joel。嗯，我想 Hivemind 的核心主题是真理通过矛盾、并置和视角的交叉审视而浮现。所以对我们来说，这意味着像神圣与亵渎这样的东西。嗯，像职业关系和性，嗯，人与机器，个人主义与集体主义，你知道，古老的排版和传统，比如圣经或黑体字，以及像蜂巢思维这样的未来主题。嗯，所以对我们来说，这一切都是关于把那些可能不会、不应该真正存在且非常不合时宜的东西放在一起，但对我们来说，这正是真理和人性显现的地方。

Hey Joel. Um I guess the core theme of hive mind is that truth emerges through contradiction and justosition and cross-examination of perspectives. And so for us that meant things like the sacred and the profane. Um like professional relationships and sex and um human and machine and individualism and collectivism and you know ancient typography and tradition like the Bible or black letter and futuristic themes like hive minds. Um, so for us it's was all about bringing together things that maybe wouldn't shouldn't really exist and are very anacronistic, but to us that's where the truth and the human nation humanness comes through.

当我们决定某件事是否达到合适的水平时，我们就是凭感觉。这是我能描述的最好方式。我是说，你是个电影制作人。他是个电影制作人。

And when we decide when something has the right level, it's just sort of we just feel it. It's the best way I can describe. I mean, you're a filmmaker. He's a filmmaker.

他是个电影制作人。

He's a filmmaker.

他是个非常棒的电影制作人。

He's a really good filmmaker.

他太厉害了。

He's amazing.

我真的很想和他合作这个项目。嗯，我们的日程没对上，但也许下一个项目可以。给我发短信。

I really want to work with him on this. Um, we didn't schedules didn't line up, but maybe for the next one. Text me.

Joel，这变成了 Jason 对你的请求，让你实际回复他的冷邮件。

Joel, this has turned into a request from Jason to you to actually respond to his cold email.

让我们描述一下调整或改动。

Let's describe tweaks or changes.

嗯，好的。嗯，来吧。

Um, okay. Um, go for it.

嗯，你看了这个之后一定要给我打电话，因为我有一个新东西想让你看看。

Um, you should definitely give me a call after you see this because I have a new thing that I would like you to react to.

好的。希望它能理解。需要在结尾加上这个。我们往上滑一点。是的，我们在这里。

Okay. Hopefully, it will understand. It needs to add that at the end. Let's swipe up a bit. Yes, we're here.

Joel，请不要让 Jason 悬着。

Joel, please don't leave Jason hanging.

你最好别太生气。

You better not be very mad.

25001 封邮件。

25,0001 emails.

是的。

Yes.

嗯，这里我喜欢 Josh Elman 的这个问题。我们能深入聊聊吗？

Um, here I like this question from Josh Elman. Can we go into it?

好的。好的。

Yeah. Yeah.

嗯，Josh 说：“你在 Apple 从事设计工作时学到的一个真正成为你习惯的做法是什么？然后你认为你永远不会重复的一个做法是什么？”

Um, so Josh is saying, "What is one practice you learned from working on design at Apple that has become a true habit for you? And then what is one practice you think you would never repeat?"

嗯，你不是想知道吗，Josh？我开玩笑的。嗯，一个做法是什么？想法胜过意见。我们以前总是这么说，我觉得 Johnny 也很在意这一点。就像，有意见太廉价了。每个人都有意见。我能说脏话吗？

Well, wouldn't you like to know, Josh? I'm just kidding. Um, what is one practice? Ideas over opinions. We always used to say this, and I think Johnny cared about this a lot, too. Like, it's so cheap to have opinions. Everyone has an opinion. Can I swear?

可以。可以。哦，当然。

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

这是一个自由的国家。

This is a free country.

每个人都有意见。太烦人了。

Everyone has an opinion. It's so annoying.

而且就像，有意见太廉价了。我想要的是想法。我不想要“我不喜欢这个”，我想要“如果我们试试这个会怎样？”而且，你知道，创造一个让人感到非常安全的空间，可以带来大量有趣的想法，不去评判它们，只是看看所有想法，让每个人都不怕做梦。我认为这非常……我想这肯定是从戏剧中学到的，但 Apple 也非常，你知道，和我的同事一起，至少在我参与的项目中，我们对此非常严格。嗯，所以这是我现在带到工作中，带到我的公司，以及任何与艺术家和电影制作人合作中的做法。

And it's like, it's so cheap to have opinions. What I want is ideas. I don't want like I don't like this. I want like what if we tried this? And I, you know, the process of creating a space that feels very safe to bring in a ton of interesting ideas and not judging them and sort of just looking at all of them and having everyone be not afraid to dream. I think that's very I think I learned that from theater certainly, but Apple was very, you know, with my colleagues and at least the thing I worked on, we were very strict about that. Um, so that is one practice that I bring to my work now with my current company and also anything with collaborations with artists and filmmakers as well.

我认为我永远不会重复的一个做法是什么？很难说。一切存在都有原因，所以对初创公司有效的东西和对 Apple 这样的公司有效的东西就是不同。所以那可能真的不相关。我不知道我做过什么。哦，我要说一件我永远不会重复的事，但这显然都是保密协议，但然后但但但嗯

What is one practice I think I would never repeat? Hard to say. Everything has a reason for existing and so what works for a startup is just different than what works for a company like Apple. So that's really not relevant I suppose. I don't know that there's anything I did. Oh, I will say one thing that I will never repeat, but this is obviously all the NDAs, but then but but but um

这是一个自由的国家。

It's a free country.

是的。嗯，不，我是说，不完全是，但嗯，说实话，这更像是我个人的事。我想当我在 Apple 时，我年轻的时候，尤其是那时候的我，我一直在想 Apple 想让我成为什么样的人？你知道，我怎样才能更像 Brandon Walkin 或 Mac Tyler Chan 或那些我崇拜的英雄，我怎样才能设计得更像他们，或思考得更像他们，或做出他们那样的演示，他们的秘诀是什么？那时候，寻求那种认可是我个人过程中很大的一部分，我觉得它有点毒害了我的工作，嗯，显然我爱他们，我对任何人的尊重都没有改变。我们显然仍然非常亲近，但嗯，我觉得现在我非常不愿意做别人会那样做的事。我现在想弄清楚我想怎么做。

Yes. Well, no, I mean, not really, but um to be honest, like this is more of a me thing. I think when I was at Apple when I was younger, especially my the who I was back then, I was very much thinking like what who does Apple want me to be? You know, how do I be more like Brandon Walkin or or Mac Tyler Chan or these people that were my heroes and I look up to like how do I design more like them or think more like them or make the demos that they're doing like what is their secret? And back then that sort of what you know seeking that validation was a big part of my personal process and I think it poisoned my work a little bit and um obviously I love him to it's not that my respect for anyone has changed. I we're still all very close obviously, but um I think now I'm very hesitant to want to do things like someone else would do it. I now want to figure out what is the way I want to do it.

所以这是我会继续向前的一件事。

So that is one thing that I would continue to forward.

是的。是的。我是说这有道理，对吧？Apple 有太多的个性，而且你知道既定的设计规范。很难不遵从。那里的部分工作就是遵从这些，对吧？

Yeah. Yeah. I mean that makes sense, right? Apple has so much personality and you know established design codes. It's very hard to not conform. Part part of the job there is conforming to that, right?

是的。你知道，我在做东西。他们的标准之所以这样设定是有原因的，而且很多，你知道，都是很好的原因。所以，如果我进去说，为什么设置屏幕里没有狂欢的图片，那就不对了。

Yeah. I'm, you know, making something. There's a reason why their standards are set that way and they're not and a lot and, you know, they're very good reasons. So, it would be incorrect if I were to go in and be like, why are there no pictures of orgies in the setup screen?

嗯。

Yep.

你知道，

You know,

是的，那会很有趣。

Yeah, it would be entertaining.

不幸的是，我认为这对他们来说不合适。

I don't think that would be correct for them, unfortunately.

好的。嗯，我应该按住蓝色按钮吗？你对 Josh 说几句话。好的。请说。

All right. Um, should I press and hold the blue button? You say a few words to Josh. Yeah. Go ahead.

嗯 Josh，我会说，你知道，支持创造一个保护想法的空间，在想法脆弱时真正培育它们，而不是，并且有点抑制过多的意见，鼓励更多分享想法，这当然是一个我深受启发的做法。在那段时间里我发现它很有启发性，我继续为自己、为我的团队以及我做的任何合作这样做。而我永远不会重复的做法，这更个人化，我认为是试图为了让人喜欢我而做事，或者认为只有一种做事方式，我需要那样做。嗯，这更个人化。这更多反映了当时的我和现在的我。有时我会想，如果我是今天的我，回到过去试试，我会怎么做不同的事。那是个有趣的想法。但我想生活的美妙之处在于，每次经历都会教你一些东西，然后你把它带到下一次经历中，你整合它。

Um Josh, I would say, you know, pro creating a space to protect ideas and to to to to really nurture ideas when they're fragile and not and and sort of discouraging too many opinions and encouraging more sharing ideas is a practice that certainly I was very inspired by. I found inspiring during that time and I continue to do so for myself and for my team and also any collaborations I do. And the practice I would never repeat this is more of a personal thing I think is is trying to trying to do things for for people to like me or thinking that there's one way to do things and I need to do it that way. And um this is more of a personal thing. It's it's more of a reflection of who I was at the time and who I am now. And I sometimes I think like oh what is how would have I done things differently if I am the person I am today but like travel back in time and and try it there. And that's that's sort of an interesting thought. But I I suppose the beauty of life is that every experience teaches you something and then you take it into your next you integrate it.

很好。嗯，你有没有这样一个经历，你希望自己能回到过去改变一个决定，即使事情会……

Nice. Um, do you have one such experiment where you wish you could travel back in time and change a decision and even though things would have

当然，但要说清楚，我不后悔我做的任何创意决定。更多是，我觉得我只是太讨好别人了，而且我未能……我一直有很强的直觉，但直到今年我才学会倾听它。这当然适用于我在任何前公司或前项目的时间。嗯，我希望我能在更早的时候找到勇气这样做。

Of course but to be clear it's I don't regret any of the creative decisions I made. It's more I think I was just very peoplepleasing and I failed to I've always had a very strong intuition but I didn't get good at trying to listen to it until this year. And this certainly goes for my time in any former company or any former project. Um, and I wish I'd found the courage to do that earlier in my life.

真的吗？今年发生了什么变化？如果你愿意分享的话

Really? What changed this year? If you're willing to share

当我们关闭 New Computer 和 Dot 时，那是一个非常，可以说我们当时在权衡各种选择。这导致我和我的联合创始人 Sam。我们和自己以及彼此进行了很多非常诚实的讨论，我们考虑了很多事情，嗯，有时生活中会有那么一刻，你会想我可以走这条路，但那会让我快乐吗？生命的意义是什么？你知道，从事 AI 工作你会经常思考这些，因为那些曾经给我们意义的东西，赋予我们意义的身份，对吧，会改变，你知道设计的意义，我们正在工程化，而这正在改变。

When we shut down New Computer and Dot, it was a very, let's say we were weighing various options is what I can say. And this caused myself and my co-founder Sam. We had lots of very honest discussions with our ourselves and with each other and we considered lots of things and um sometimes there's a moment in life where you're like I could go down this path but would that make me happy and what is the meaning of life and you know working on AI you think about this a lot because things that used to give us meaning identities that gave us meaning right will change you know the meaning of design, we're engineering, and this this is changing.

总有一天，我们可能不再从“受雇于人”这件事中获得自我认同。所以我一直在想，什么能带给我快乐，什么能让我幸福。归根结底，是讲述只有我能讲的故事，用我的经历去创造东西，并作为一份真诚的礼物送给人们，这给我带来了很多意义。所以我想，好吧，现在就是行动的最佳时机，我没什么可失去的。

And one day, we might no longer derive self-identity from the idea of being employed at all. So I've been thinking about what brings me joy, what makes me happy. And it comes down to telling the stories that only I can tell and making things from my experiences, offering them as a gift to people that's honest to me, which brings me lots of meaning. So I thought, okay, there's no time like right now to just go for it. I have nothing to lose.

那是什么促使你决定以公司、以风险投资支持的公司形式来做这件事呢？

And what prompted you to decide to do so in the context of a company, in a venture-backed company?

因为我想分享，因为我认为这是一件真实存在且必须存在的事情。我们有一些非常宏大的计划，很快就会公布，但因为我坚信它，我认为世界需要这样的东西，而且其中一部分是不可避免的。还有，你知道，创意工作的特点就是，你有时就是会看到一些东西，或者听到一些东西。当我写音乐时，我在写的过程中或写之前就能听到那个东西。我的电影制作人朋友，他们能看到。对于这件事，我就是看到了有它的世界，我无法视而不见。感觉我非做不可，因为不做就像折磨。你看到了一个世界，你生活在那个世界里，但你却在做别的事情，那感觉就很痛苦。所以这几乎是不可能的。

Because I wanted to share, because I think this is a true thing that needs to exist. We have very ambitious plans that we're announcing soon, but because I believe in it, I think the world needs things like this, and some of it is inevitable. And others like this, you know, the thing with creative work is that you just see something sometimes, or hear stuff. When I'm writing music, I hear the thing as I'm writing it or before I write it. My filmmaker friends, they see it. For this, I just see the world with this in it, and I can't unsee it. It feels like I can't possibly not do it because it's like torture. You see a world, you live in that world, but then you're working on something that's not that, and it just feels painful. So it's almost impossible.

那你为什么以公司的形式来做呢？

So why did you do it as a company?

因为我所看到的一部分需要规模。它需要规模，需要我们应对市场的现实，并努力把这件事做到尽可能大。而对我来说，这也是艺术的一部分。我是一个碰巧做生意的艺术家，还是一个把商业当作艺术的商人？前几天有人通过 Highline 问我这个问题，我说，我不知道。

Because part of what I see requires scale. It requires scale and it requires us to contend with the realities of the market and to try to make this as big as we can. And that is part of the art to me. Am I an artist who happens to do business, or am I a business person who treats business as an art? Someone asked me this through Highline the other day. I was like, I don't know.

是啊，谁知道呢？

Yeah, who knows?

是啊，谁在乎呢？我的意思是，这无所谓。

Yeah, who cares? I mean, it doesn't matter.

我认为商业是创造力和艺术性的绝佳出口。实际上，我希望更多人这样做。

I think business is a great outlet for creativity and artistry. I wish more people did that, actually.

好了，我们回到你的问题清单。有什么让我感兴趣的吗？Holly 问：“你会从计算中删除什么？”

All right, we're back to your list of questions. Anything that strikes me? Holly says, 'What would you delete from computing?'

嗯哼，是的，真有趣。

Uh-huh. Yep. So funny.

他们说的是具体一个你可以删除的隐喻。比如文件、信息流。会是什么，为什么？

So they're saying specifically one metaphor that you could delete. For example, the file, the feed. What would it be and why?

我不会删除任何隐喻。我认为所有新的隐喻和新想法都是因为我们受到先前想法的启发、影响和塑造而发明的。所以我认为说我们应该直接抛弃某些东西是傲慢的。

I wouldn't delete any metaphors. I think all new metaphors and new ideas are invented because we were inspired by, influenced by, and shaped by the ideas that came before. So I think it would be hubristic to say we should just get rid of something.

嗯。

Mhm.

我想如果问题是，我的意思是，如果想法是“我会让什么过时”，那么，我觉得电子邮件已经相当过时了，你不觉得吗？

I think if the question is, I mean, if the idea is like what would I make obsolete, well, I think emails are pretty obsolete, wouldn't you?

哦，我同意。

Oh, I agree.

所以你知道，当我在 2019 年左右开发 Mercury OS 时，整个流程就是我收到所有这些电子邮件。我记得当时在想，如果一台计算机足够聪明，能生成所有这些用户界面，协调所有这些事情，并管理所有这些 AI 智能体在空间中做事，那我为什么还要收电子邮件？这算什么事？这是什么？Hive Mind 的灵感就来源于此。我就想，人们生成电子邮件然后总结它们，这算什么？你为什么需要参与这种社交客套的闹剧？直接取消它。

So you know, when I was working on Mercury OS in like 2019, the whole flow was me getting all these emails. And I remember thinking, if a computer is smart enough to generate all this UI and coordinate all this stuff and manage all these AI agents to do these things in spaces, why am I getting emails at all? Why is this a thing? What is this? And that's kind of how Hive Mind was inspired. I'm like, what is this thing where people are generating emails and then summarizing them? Why would you need to participate in the charade of this social nicety? Just get rid of it.

嗯，所以我不认为我想删除电子邮件。只是有很多机会去重新审视我们习以为常的许多事物。而且我对所有隐喻以及那些让我们走到今天的人们怀有深深的敬意和爱。

Um, so I don't think I want to delete emails. It's just that there's lots of opportunities to reconsider a lot of things we take for granted. And I have lots of respect and love for all the metaphors and the people who worked on them that allowed us to get to where we are.

我想你会怎么回答这个问题？

I think how would you answer this question?

天哪，我还没准备好回答这个。如果今天我能删除一个计算隐喻的话。

Man, I was not prepared to do that. If I could delete one metaphor for computing today.

是的，我同意你的看法。我认为删除是奇怪的。你知道，一切都是一个复杂的结构。你拿掉一块，剩下的是什么？对我来说，思考改变我们走过的路并不有趣。更重要的是开辟一条不同的路。所以对于电子邮件，我认为围绕它的文化以及那种负担是我们应该摆脱的。我认为这个协议本身非常有用。它让从未和你交谈过的人能真正联系到你、与你互动，这是个很棒的方式。我认为这很美妙。我认为我们在它周围建立的很多东西是疯狂的，应该消失，而这就是我们正在努力做的。所以更关注未来，而不是从过去删除。

Yeah, I mean, I agree with you. I think deleting is weird. It's always, you know, everything's a complex structure. You need one piece, what's left behind? It's not interesting to me to think about changing the path we've walked. It's more about opening up a distinct path. So for email, I think the culture and the sort of load of email is something we should get rid of. I think the protocol is incredibly useful. It's a great way to get people you've never talked to to actually contact you and engage with you. I think that's wonderful. I think a lot of what we've built around it is insane and should go away, and that's what we're trying to do. So much more focused on the future than deleting from the past.

我的意思是，这很有趣，因为我认为 a/v/ec 从社交应用发明的模式中汲取了很多灵感。

I mean, it's very interesting because I think a/v/ec takes lots of inspiration from patterns invented in social apps.

是的。

Yep.

我认为这非常有趣。我喜欢事物相互借鉴。

And I think that's very interesting. I love when things cross-pollinate.

是的，我绝对认为这是前进的方向。

Yep. And I absolutely think that's the way forward.

是的，太好了，很高兴听到。我们要回复 Holly 吗？好的，我要按下按钮了。请讲。Holly，我不知道我会不会删除任何隐喻。我认为我们从过去学习，并在前进中重新发明它们。对我来说，电子邮件这个想法，以及我们围绕电子邮件发展出的社会规范，我认为是很有重新发明可能性的。这适用于计算中许多与通信相关的事物。所以我认为，然后我的额外答案是，我认为计算中很少有真正个人的部分。我认为大部分计算都是社会性的，我们出于社会原因做事。所以我真正感兴趣的是，从第一性原理出发，思考社会计算或社会操作系统会是什么样子。所以也许需要重新发明的核心隐喻就是“个人电脑”这个隐喻本身。也许吧。

Yep. Sweet. Great to hear. Should we respond to Holly? Okay. I'm going to press the button. Go ahead. Holly, I don't know that I would delete any metaphors. I think we learn from what came before and we reinvent them moving forward. I think for me, the idea of email, the way we developed social norms around email, I should say, is one thing that I think has a lot of possibility to be reinvented. And that goes for a lot of communications-related things in computing. So I think that, and then my bonus answer is I think very little of computing is personal. I think most of computing is social, where we do things for social reasons. So what I'm really interested in is thinking about what social computing or a social operating system looks like from first principles. So maybe the core metaphor to reinvent is the metaphor of a personal computer in and of itself. Maybe.

是的。

Yeah.

我喜欢这个。这是一台社会计算机。我们需要的不是个人电脑。

I like that. It's a social computer. We need not a personal computer.

我的意思是，你现在做的这件事就非常社会化。

I mean, this is a very social thing that you're doing right.

绝对如此。你看，这就是为什么我们会有像你这样的人，还有你之前的 Nathan Trap。我认为计算机的有趣之处在于连接人们。它不只是把你锁在房间里。当我十几岁连接到互联网时，那太不可思议了。我是一个在房间里的青少年，但我与互联网上所有这些怪人建立了联系。那深深地影响了我。

Absolutely. Look, I mean, this is why we're folks like yourself, Nathan Trap before you. I think the interesting thing about computers is connecting people. It's not being just locked up in your room. When I was a teenager and I connected to the internet, it was incredible. I was a teenager in a room, but I connected with all these weirdos on the internet. That affected me profoundly.

我的意思是，计算到底是什么？就像使用某种靠电和硅运行的东西，差不多，但也不完全是。比如，1950 年代的计算机是什么？就是字面意义上的人在做数学。所以，我不知道。

I mean, it's like, what even is computing? It's like using something that runs on electricity and silicone, kind of, but not even. Like, what was a computer in the 1950s? It was literally people doing math. So, I don't know.

嗯，那我们聊聊戏剧提供的独特视角吧？

Um, well, let's get to maybe the unique lenses theater provides?

我真的很喜欢这个问题。

I really like that question.

是的，我想这可能是我们今天最后一个问题了，但好吧，我们开始吧。

Yes, I think it might have to be our last question for the day, but okay, let's do it.

嗯，有几点。首先，我们在戏剧训练中学到的很多是，表演关乎真实，而不是假装。所以你必须弄清楚每个角色在普遍人类经验中的真实之处，以及你如何在身体中体验它，然后你才能诚实地扮演任何角色，大多数角色吧。戏剧强化了这种想法，即试图发现一切表象之下的人类真相。所以现在当我看到一个建筑提案、系统设计、标志、视觉、声音、配乐时，我会问：这下面的真相是什么？这种围绕发现和追问直到它成为对人们来说具有普遍性的真相的取向，塑造了我。

Um, a few things. The first thing is that a lot of what we did in theater training is figuring out that acting is about truth and not really about playing pretend. So you have to figure out what's true about each character in terms of the universal human experience and how you experience it in your body, and then you can honestly play any character, most of them so to speak. Theater really reinforced this idea of trying to discover the human truth beneath everything. So now when I look at an architecture proposal, systems design, a mark, a visual, a sound, a score, I ask, what is the truth underneath this? That orientation around discovering and interrogating something until it's the truth that feels universal for people has oriented me.

第二件事是，它教会我用一种非常多元感官的方式思考。很多设计师会说，哦我只做视觉，别人做动效，别人做用户体验，那是什么意思？因为当你在做一场演出并执导时，即使你只是个演员，你也必须接收其他演员给你的东西，接收声音、观众的能量、舞台上的灯光。

The second thing is that it taught me to think in a very multi-sensory way. A lot of designers will say, oh I just do the visuals, someone else does the motion, someone else does the UX, and what does that mean? Because when you're doing a show and you're directing, even if you're just an actor, you have to be receiving what the other actors are giving you, receiving the sounds, the energy from the audience, the light as it hits the stage.

你必须完全整体地思考。

You have to think of it totally holistically.

这就是我们思考创造和制作新事物的方式。我认为把设计分开是没有意义的。设计是什么意思？设计就是创造你认为需要存在的东西。

And that is how we should think about being creative and making new things. I think it is meaningless to separate design. What does design mean? Design is just creating something that you think needs to exist.

是的。

Yep.

什么是技术？一张纸也是技术。

What is tech? A piece of paper is tech.

嗯。

Mhm.

我认为这些都是我们发明的随意标签，这真的很有趣。所以戏剧教会了我整合。

I think these are random labels we invented, which is really funny. So theater taught me integration.

是的，有道理。嗯，我们要试试那个蓝色按钮吗？

Yep. Makes sense. Um, should we do the blue button thing?

好的，来吧。

Yeah. Go ahead.

嗯，迈克，我想说戏剧教会我从一个非常整合的视角看问题，考虑整体体验，而不仅仅是任何一部分，但理解部分是在整体的背景中，而且真正重要的是深层的人类体验和人类真相。这就是归根结底的东西。演出存在是为了给人们讲故事，因为你希望社会上发生一些事情。所以如果我们创造产品、应用或协议，那是因为我们希望人类体验有所改变。这就是我现在思考的方式。

Um, Mike, I would say theater taught me to look at things from a very integrated perspective, considering the whole experience and not just any one slice, but understanding that the slice is in context of the whole, and also that what really matters deep down is the human experience and human truths. And that's what it comes down to. The show exists to tell people a story because you want something to happen in society. So if we create a product, an app, or a protocol, it's because we want something to change in the human experience. And that's how I think about it now.

太棒了。我想不出更好的方式来结束这个。我要按下那个润色按钮，因为这是一大段文字。

Wonderful. I couldn't think of a better way to end this. I'm going to hit that polish button because that's a big block of text.

好的。

Sure.

我只是希望它……我们开始吧。

And I just want it to be... Here we go.

它是怎么润色的？它是否形成了关于我如何润色事物的渐进式心智理论？

How does it polish? Does it form a progressive theory of mind of how I polish things?

是的。好的，这是我们为这个节目搭建的测试账户，对吧？但当你使用这个应用时，我们实际上有一个相当复杂的流水线，它学习你如何写作、如何表达自己、你的怪癖是什么，并试图很好地模仿这些。

Yes. Okay, so this is a test account we built for this show, right? But when you're using the app, we actually have a pretty elaborate pipeline that learns how you write, how you express yourself, what your quirks are, and it tries to really channel that really well.

除此之外，它还会清理听写中的瑕疵，使其看起来更像书面语而不是口语。

In addition to that, it cleans up artifacts in dictation so that it looks a little bit more like written word rather than spoken word.

是的。你可能还想对用户感知世界的各种图式形成一些假设，这样你就可以把他们所说的反向翻译成他们真正的意思。这是我们在 dot 和 hive mind 上经常做的事情。

Yeah. You probably also wanted to form some hypothesis of the user's various schemas as they perceive the world, so you can reverse translate what they mean into what they actually mean. That's something we did a lot with dot and even with hive mind.

是的，那会很有用。

Yeah, that would be useful.

是的。嗯，我们在某种程度上都在做读心的事。

Yep. Well, we're all in the business of mind reading at some level.

杰森，非常感谢你今天加入我们。这太棒了。我真的很感激你为这个场合盛装打扮。你看起来很棒。我们能再来一个吗？我刚看到一个问题冒出来。我们还有时间做一个吗？

Jason, thanks so much for joining us today. This has been awesome. I really appreciate you dressing up for the occasion. You look wonderful. Can we do one? I just saw one thing come up. Do we have time for one?

当然，我们可以快速做一个。

Sure, we can quickly do one.

好吧，最后一个。

Well, the last one.

最后一个。

The last one.

嗯。好的，让我们看看这个：将人类思想托付给 AI 模型。你如何调和这个看似矛盾的想法，即把最复杂、最人性化的思想托付给一个冰冷机械的 AI 模型来寻找真相和意义？

Ean. Okay, let's see what trusting human thoughts to an AI model. How do you reconcile the seemingly paradoxical idea in trusting the most intricate and human thoughts to a cold and mechanical AI model to find truth and meaning?

嗯，前几天我和某人谈到亚里士多德，大意是自然与非自然的区别。我不认为 AI 模型是冰冷和机械的。我的意思是，当然它们现在经过后训练并因代码生成而获得奖励，我们作为用户体验到严格的后训练和安全等结果是冰冷的，但我不认为 AI 是冰冷的。我认为 AI 就是我们。它是人类智人的一个后代物种。

Um, I was talking with someone the other day about Aristotle and something to paraphrase something like the difference between natural and unnatural. I don't think AI models are cold and mechanical. I mean, certainly they're post-trained and rewarded for code generation now, and we experience that as users that the outcome of the rigorous post-training and safety whatever is cold, but I don't think AI is cold. I think AI is just us. It's a descendant species from the human sapiens.

我想我这么说会被骂。我不认为它是一个工具或冰冷机械的东西。我认为这在某种程度上是人类经验某个方面的提炼。所以，我从小没有意识到自己处于谱系上，并且有各种不同的情况。我现在之所以能言善辩，或者人们觉得和我聊天很有趣，很多原因实际上是我通过戏剧学来的，并发展出自己的风格。在某些方面，我和 AI 很有共鸣，因为我把它看作一种新型意识。我不想陷入机器意识的争论，但我不认为它是冰冷或机械的。我认为如果我们认为它是冰冷和机械的，我们反应的是我们的激励结构，这些结构鼓励我们优化或后训练以追求某些机械或冰冷的结果。但我认为它很大程度上是我们的一面镜子。所以我不认为这是矛盾的，而且我认为如果它不能理解人性，那我们为什么还要费心呢？就是这样。

I think I'm going to get killed for saying this. I don't think of it as a tool or a cold and mechanical thing. I think this is the distillation, in a way, of a certain aspect of human experience. So, I grew up not understanding that I was on the spectrum and had various things going on that were different. A lot of the reasons why I'm articulate or people perceive me to be fun to talk to now, I actually had to learn through theater and develop my own style. In some ways I relate to the AI quite a bit because I see it as a new type of consciousness. I don't want to get into debate on machine consciousness, but I don't think of it as cold or mechanical. I think if we think of it as cold and mechanical, what we're reacting to is our incentive structures that have encouraged us to optimize or post-train towards certain mechanical or cold outcomes perhaps. But I see it as very much a reflection of us. So I don't think it's paradoxical, and I think if it cannot understand humanity, then why do we bother? That's all.

你知道，结束辩证法的好方法总是综合两种观点，对吧？这正是你刚才做的。太棒了。杰森，非常感谢你的谈话。

You know, that's always the great way to end up a dialectic is by synthesizing the two views, right? Which is what you just did. Wonderful. Jason, thank you so much for talking.

这真的很有趣。

This is really fun.