设计人生：Ivy Ross 谈好奇心、工艺与谷歌领导力

嗨，我是 Future London Academy 的 E. Carterina，今天我们为大家准备了一份特别的礼物。谷歌消费设备首席设计官 Ivy Ross 专程从硅谷飞到伦敦待几天，其中一天她会和我们一起度过。我们将探索伦敦、自然，并深入探讨关于设计、领导力和未来的各种哲学对话。你一定会喜欢这次对话。我们到了。

Hi, I'm E. Carterina from Future London Academy and today we've got a special treat for you. Ivy Ross, chief design officer of consumer devices at Google, flew all the way from Silicon Valley to London for a couple of days. And one of these days she's spending with us. We'll be exploring London, nature, and diving into all sorts of philosophical conversations about design, leadership, and the future. You'll definitely enjoy this conversation. We have arrived.

这就是伦敦。

This is London for you.

太美了。

Beautiful.

值得这么折腾。

Worth the troubles.

是的，当然。一点也不麻烦。不，这里既有自然又有城市，真的很好，因为我是一个……这不是非此即彼，而是两者兼有。我总是说，不是数字或模拟，而是两者兼有。不是城市或乡村，而是两者兼有。

Yeah, for sure. It wasn't any trouble. No, it's really nice where you have the nature and the city, because I'm a big... It's not either or, it's both. And I always say that it's not digital or analog, it's both. And it's not the city or the country, it's both.

是的。

Yes.

Ivy，你是一个令人难以置信的迷人人物，感觉就像在一生中活了一百世。我真的不知道你是怎么做到的。你在 25 岁或二十五六岁时，你的珠宝设计就已经在世界各地的博物馆展出。然后你转而为 Swatch、迪士尼、美泰工作，现在你是谷歌消费设备首席设计官，这些都非常了不起。所以你领导着 Nest、Pixel 以及谷歌那些美丽的实体产品的团队。一个人如何设计出像你这样的职业生涯？你年轻时是否有意要做多件事情？一个人怎么能这样度过一生？因为很多人在某个时刻做出选择，然后就躺在自己成就上休息了，但你从不停止。那么，你是怎么做到的呢？

And Ivy, you are an incredibly fascinating person that feels like you've lived 100 lives in one. I seriously don't know how you've done it. You at the age of 25 or mid-20s, your jewelry design was already exhibited in museums across the world. You then moved to work for Swatch, Disney, Mattel, and now you're chief design officer at Google for consumer devices, which are incredible. So you lead teams for Nest, for Pixel, for beautiful physical objects that Google has. How does one design a career like yours? What was the... Did you have an intention to do multiple things when you were young? How can someone go through life like that? Because a lot of people pick at a certain point and then kind of rest on the success of what they've done, but you just don't stop. So, how did you do that?

嗯，首先，当我听到别人这样复述我的经历时，我不会停下来。如果我停下来，我可能会精疲力竭。所以我只是继续前进。我想因为我是个好奇的人，正如我们之前谈到的，我无法停止，因为我对太多不同的事情感兴趣。但本质上，当我最初是一名手工艺人，拥有将思想与双手连接并创造事物的天赋时，没有什么能替代亲手实现想法的体验。我认为这给了我成为设计师的巨大优势，而且我的想法比我的手指还多，这就是我如何学会把想法写在纸上并推销出去。你说如何设计那样的生活，这很有趣。我想我是“非设计”的。我没有试图控制和设计它。我让它自然展开，但关注什么感觉是下一个正确的步骤。当我说正确的步骤时，首先，我早早就意识到，我从未想把自己的才能应用到不同类别上。我从未想重复同样的类别两次，因为在我职业生涯早期，人们常说：‘你是什么？你是手袋设计师吗？你是玩具设计师吗？你是什么？你做了这么多事情。’我说，这是一种心态。这是一种思考和存在的方式，只要给我参数，我可以应用到任何类别。我认为当你有约束时，设计更容易，因为如果你没有任何约束，它可以是很多东西，但有约束时，想法是让你在框内尽可能有创造力。我设计的类别，无论是独自还是与团队一起，总是变化，因为我想要踏入未知的新挑战。我意识到了这一点，而且我实际上在熟悉和陌生的事物中茁壮成长。熟悉的是了解自己，知道自己擅长什么，喜欢做什么。陌生的是，我能不能……就像我的人生是一场大师级的实验，你知道，我能不能把它应用到那个我可能一无所知但我感兴趣和好奇的类别？然后这很棒，因为我必须深入钻研，了解客户，了解技术边界，我发现这令人兴奋。它推动我在任何类别中都做到最好。

Well, first of all, when I hear it recounted back to me, I don't stop. And if I do, I'll probably get exhausted. So I just keep going. I think because I am, as we talked about earlier, a curious person, I can't stop because I'm interested in so many different things. But essentially, once I was first a craftswoman and had the gift of being able to materialize, connect my mind and my hands and make things, and there is no substitute for manifesting with your own hands. I think that gave me such an advantage to then become a designer, and I had more ideas than I had fingers, which is how I then learned to put my ideas on paper and sell them. It's interesting you say how do you design that life? I think I undesigned it. I didn't try and control it and design it. I let it unfold but paid attention to what felt like the right next move. And when I say the right move, first of all, I realized early on that I never wanted to apply my talent to different categories. I never wanted to repeat the same one twice because people used to say early in my career, 'What are you? Are you a handbag designer? Are you a toy designer? Are you what? You've done so many things.' And I said, it's a mindset. It's a way of thinking and being that I can apply to whatever category if you give me the parameters. Like, I think design is easier when you have restrictions because if you don't have any restrictions, it can be so many things, but with restrictions, the idea is for you to be as creative as you can within the box. The different categories I've designed in, either by myself or alongside my teams, has always changed because I wanted the new challenge of stepping into the unknown. And I realized that about myself and that I actually thrive on something familiar and something unfamiliar. The familiar is knowing myself and what I feel I do well and what I like to do. And the unfamiliar is, can I... It's like my life has been a master experiment, you know, can I apply that to this category that I may know nothing about but I'm interested and curious? And then it's great because I have to deep dive and learn the customer, learn the technical boundaries, and I find that exciting. It pushes me to do my best work each time in whatever category I'm in.

我真正钦佩你的是，我仍然不知道你是怎么做到的，你不仅换了类别，而且在加入的每家公司都非常成功。说‘我对很多事情好奇，我会做这个，做一点那个’是一回事，但你还做过 CMO。你现在是首席设计官。你不只是在谷歌做消费设备。你是谷歌的首席设计官，这不仅需要好奇心，还需要别的东西。那么你认为是什么让你不仅加入公司和进入新行业，而且在工作中取得成功？

What I really admire about you and still don't know how you've done it, you didn't just change the categories, but you were also very successful in each company that you joined. It's one thing to say, I'm curious about so many things. I'll do this, I'll do a bit of that, but you also were CMO. You're now chief design officer. You're not just doing consumer devices at Google. You are chief design officer at Google, which requires not just curiosity, requires something else. So what do you think that was that made you not just join companies and join new industries but also become successful at your job?

嗯，我左脑和右脑都有，而且我真的很欣赏它们协同工作的方式。所以有一个……我实际上喜欢流程，我最喜欢的是有一个想法，然后和一群人一起实现它。我现在称自己为交响乐指挥，因为我非常了解我的乐器，那就是我的团队。我认为没有多少领导者会深入倾听他们拥有谁，他们的团队是谁，但我觉得我足够了解他们，能够和他们达成一致，我们演奏什么交响乐，然后知道什么时候说‘多点鼓，少点长号’，真正地变形，让我们作为一个团队发挥最佳状态，以实现或解决摆在我们面前的挑战。你知道，在学校我主修艺术，辅修心理学，我真的对人类着迷。是什么让我们运转，是什么让我们不运转。所以我认为我对人的迷恋，不仅仅是作为产品、团队、公司甚至房屋的建造者，对我很有用，因为我的朋友说你怎么能处理政治？你知道，每家公司都有政治。我想了想，你知道，在一家公司就像人类学的培养皿。它非常浓缩。所以你看到人类的功能和功能障碍，我一直着迷于人们如何合作。你知道，是什么让这个团队运转，那个团队不运转，或者什么……所以我认为它让我……我能处理政治，因为我把它看作一个大实验室，我理解。在这些不同公司的经历带来的乐趣是，你学到很多关于人类的不同风味和他们的不同运作方式。但我给你一个例子，说明我如何把两边结合起来，因为我们之前谈到我总是伴随着职业生涯探索我感兴趣的东西。而让我感兴趣的事情之一不仅仅是，你知道，当我独自制作那些进入博物馆并获得设计奖项的作品时，我想当我成为设计领导者时，我如何把这份礼物送给别人？因为我知道当我进入状态取得这些突破时的感觉，当我第一次进入公司时，你知道，CEO 或我的老板会说：‘你、你和你，你们是一个团队。’我说：‘不，不，我们不是。’

Well, I have a left and right brain both, and I actually really appreciate the way they work together. So there's a... I actually enjoy processes and I enjoy most having an idea and manifesting it with a group of people. I call myself now an orchestra conductor because I get to know my instruments really well, and that's my team. And I think not enough leaders deeply listen to who they have, who their team is, but I feel like I get to know them well enough to be able to then agree with them on what symphony are we playing, and then know when to say more drums, less trombone, and really kind of shapeshift and get us to a place where we're doing our best work as a team to manifest or solve the challenges that have been set out for us. You know, in school I was an art major and a psychology minor, and I really was fascinated with humans. What makes us work, what makes us not work. So I think my fascination with people beyond just being a builder of products, teams, companies, or even houses has worked for me because friends of mine say how can you deal with the politics? You know, there's always politics in every company. And I thought about it, and you know, being in a company is like a petri dish of humanity. It's just very concentrated. And so you see the function and dysfunction of humans, and I've been fascinated with how people work together. You know, what makes this team work and that team not work, or what's... So I think it's kept me... I can deal with the politics because I see it as a big laboratory, and I understand. And the joy of having been in these different companies is you learn so much about the different flavors of humans and the different way they operate. But I'll give you an example how I brought the two sides together, because we talked earlier about how I've always, alongside my career, explored what interests me. And one of the things that has interested me is not only how, you know, when I was making the pieces that got into museums and winning design awards by myself, I thought how can I give the gift of this to others as I became a design leader? And because I know how I felt when I was in the zone making these breakthroughs, and when I first got into companies, you know, a CEO or my boss would go, 'You, you and you, you're a team.' And I'm like, 'No, no, we're not.'

我们甚至互不相识。所以，我对企业世界非常天真，因为它从来不是我的志向。这几乎是偶然发生的，但你会意识到没有偶然。宇宙早已为我安排好了。我只是想：“嗯，我会观察，比如，你知道，我们本该是一个团队，这怎么运作？”

We don't even know each other. And so, I was so naive about the corporate world because it was never necessarily an aspiration of mine. It almost happened by accident, but you realize there are no accidents. The universe had it planned for me. I just thought, "Huh, I'll observe, like, you know, how does this work that we're supposed to be a team?"

我开始观察，这三个人能在一小时内头脑风暴，螺旋上升到新高度，想出好主意。而四个人，三个小时，什么也没有，没有好主意。

And I started observing these three people could brainstorm and spiral to new places within an hour coming up with great ideas. These four people, three hours, nothing, no good ideas.

所以我打电话给我的一位声音老师，我说，你知道，我觉得有些人在同一波长上。没有评判，只是不同的波长。有些人在不同的波长上。我能强迫，你知道，这是我天真的美。我能强迫人们在同一波长上吗？因为如果我们能让人们在同一波长上，我们会更高效，因为我感受过那种一起进入状态或心流的感觉，那时想法不断涌现。

So I called up one of my sound teachers and I would say, you know, I feel like some people are on the same wavelength. No judgment, just different wavelengths. Some people are on different ones. Can I force, you know, this was the beauty of my naivety. Can I force people to be on the same wavelength because we'd be so much more productive if I can get people on the same wavelength because I felt what it feels like to be in the groove or in that flow state together and you're just the ideas are coming.

于是他说：“我不知道，我们试试吧。”他当时带着一台机器来到公司，我需要找 12 名员工，他们会张开嘴说“啊”，那是 25 年前，他录下了这 12 个不同人的音调，我们寻找他们重叠的地方，因为每个人都有一个音域，但这 12 个人在哪里有相同的频率呢？

And so he said, "I don't know. Let's try." And he came into the company at the time with a machine that I had to find 12 employees that would, and this was 25 years ago, open their mouth and say "ah" and he recorded these 12 different people's tones and we looked for the place where they overlapped because everyone has a range but where was it that these 12 individuals had a frequency that was the same.

然后他拿那个频率，做了八度升和八度降，嵌入到一段音乐中。他和我提到，你知道，同步的概念，就像布谷鸟钟最终会以相同方式摆动，因为它们彼此同步了。主实验是，我们能否让这 12 个人的大脑同步，处于同一波长，从而产生好主意。

And then he took that frequency and he did it in octaves up and octaves down and embedded it in a piece of music. And he and I said, you know, the concept of entrainment where cuckoo clocks eventually start swinging the same way because they've gotten entrained with each other. The master experiment was could we get these 12 people's brains to entrain together and be on the same wavelength which would therefore get us great ideas.

所以我想，哇，我身处这个位置，既能产出好作品，又能玩转我的一些理论和想法。我非常感激。我记得我大概 40 岁时，在某个地方担任高级副总裁。我说：“我怎么就做到了这个高位，基本上在做我喜欢做的事？”我脑子里有个小声音说，为了获得做真正工作的信誉。

And so I thought, wow, I'm in this place where I'm getting to produce great work and play with some of my theories and ideas. And I'm very grateful. I remember when I think I turned 40 and I was a senior VP somewhere. I said, "How did I end up at this high level, you know, basically doing what I love to do?" And a little voice in my head said to get the credibility to do the real work.

我想，好吧，现在我明白了。真正的工作是创造环境，为各种各样的人留出空间，因为你知道，随着我的角色成长，是的，主要是创意人员，但也有工程师、项目经理，范围很广，但真正的工作是找到方法，创造最佳条件，让人们不仅产出好作品，而且乐于产出好作品。

And I thought, okay, now I get it. And the real work was creating environments and holding space for a variety of folks because you know now as my role grew it's yes mostly creatives but it's also there's some engineers program managers it's quite a range but the real work was finding the way to create the best conditions under which people would not just produce great work but be happy producing great work.

我喜欢这些故事，我觉得这可能是现在任何公司中最被低估、最重要的要素，来创造那种文化、那种氛围，或者随便我们怎么称呼它，创造力的条件，因为我认为现在我们正淹没在千篇一律的海洋中，每家公司都在生产别人东西的稍微好一点的版本。尤其是技术被商品化，创造力和想象力将成为决定公司成败和差异化的因素。除了声音，还有哪些东西，你在不同环境中看到的，能创造那种让人们茁壮成长的特殊文化？

I love these stories and I feel like that's probably right now the most undervalued and the most important ingredient in any company to create that culture to create that atmosphere or whatever we want to call it conditions for creativity because I think right now we're swimming in a sea of sameness where every company is producing slightly better version of something else. And especially with technology being commoditized, the creativity and imagination is something will make or break companies and differentiate them. What are the things that apart from I don't know sound and like what are the things you've seen working in different environments that you've been in to create that special culture where people can thrive?

嗯，你知道，给人们时间去获得灵感，因为就像电脑一样，我们不会在输入之前要求输出。然而我们经常要求员工更多。这就像对生产力的持续驱动，却不明白你需要补充能量。你需要先投入一些东西，然后再要求。

Well, you know, giving people the time to be inspired because it's like even a computer. We don't ask for output before we give it input. And yet we often ask our people for more. It's like this constant drive for productivity without an understanding that you need to refuel. You need to put something in before you ask.

你知道，创造力是建立新的联系。但如果你的员工没有时间吸收新事物，他们怎么能想出新的东西？所以我做过一些事情，比如每年每个人都去一次灵感之旅，或者我们去一个城市，不同的城市，一起体验，一起做事。

You know, creativity is making new connections. But if your people don't have the time to take in new things, how can they come up with new things? So I've done things and do things like everyone takes one inspiration trip a year or we go into a city, different cities, and we have experiences together and do things to.

我记得我早期开始这样做时，我的老板会说：“你什么意思，你要让你的员工离开工作两天去体验？”我会说，这不是让他们离开工作，而是让他们进入工作的另一个阶段，以获得好的工作成果。

And I remember when I started doing this early on, my bosses would go, "What do you mean you're going to take your people out of their work for two days to have this experience?" And I would say it's not taking them out of their work. It's putting them in a different phase of their work to get the good work.

而且你知道，我后来学到，你需要有严谨的工作，然后还有漫游和吸收信息的时间，你的默认模式网络需要把你经历过的事情整合起来。所以，我们似乎没有意识到，我们以生产力来衡量工作。

And you know, I have since learned you need to, there's the rigor that you do and then there's the wander and the time to take information in and your default mode network needs to put together the things that you've experienced. So, we don't seem to appreciate, you know, we measure work by the productivity.

我还在一家公司做了一个实验，那里有 12 周的产品开发周期，我说我要用前两周不产出任何东西，而是花这两周让每个人都真正了解彼此。这样就不会有竞争。所以，我们都从零开始。我们知道每个人带来的天赋和才能，我们不会互相竞争。相反，我们要尊重并真正利用每个才能的细微差别，并一起分享经验，因为我认为当你们一起分享经验时，你们会发展出一种新的语言，然后开始这个过程。

I also did an experiment in a company where it was a 12-week product development cycle and I said I'm going to take the first two weeks and not produce anything but spend those two weeks having everyone get to know each other really well. So there won't be competition. So, we're all starting. We know the gifts and talents each of us bring, and we're not going to be competitive with each other. Instead, we're going to honor and really work with what each nuance of the talent is and have shared experiences together because I think when you have shared experiences together, you develop a new language and then start the process.

这就是这个主实验。如果你不花这两周，只有 12 周的时间，你知道，时钟开始计时，你经历创建产品想法和实现原型的阶段，而花时间用两周来连接、了解彼此、一起拥有新体验，然后在 12 周结束时的 10 周里，产品、结果更好，人们在工作中的幸福感也更高。

And it was this master experiment. If you didn't do this for two weeks and you just had 12 weeks of the, you know, the time clock starts and you are going through the phases of creating a product idea and manifesting the prototypes versus taking the time to spend the two weeks connecting, learning about each other and having new experiences together. And then the 10 weeks at the end of that 12 weeks, the products, the results were better and people were happier in their jobs.

事实上，我记得有一个案例，人们传言“你在那边做什么，Ivy？”因为有人怀孕了，结果发现这些人显然是在家里和配偶怀孕的，但她们感觉压力如此之小，以至于这些女性的荷尔蒙流动不同，所以这就像是这种工作方式的额外好处之一，但最重要的是工作更好，人们更快乐。

In fact, in one case I remember people, the rumors were "What are you doing over there, Ivy?" because people were getting pregnant and it turned out that these were people that were getting pregnant by their spouses obviously at home but they were feeling so unstressed that their hormones were flowing differently with these women and so it was like one of those fringe benefits of wow working this way but the most important thing is that the work was better and people were happier.

所以你知道，我非常感激能在创意框架内拥有这份礼物。很多人不理解创造力是如何真正发生的，但他们想要它。要更有创造力，更创新。我知道它来自信任，一点自由是创造力的一部分。

So you know, I've had, I'm very grateful to have had the gift of, you know, within a creative framework. A lot of people don't understand how creativity really happens and they want it. It's be more creative, more innovative. And I know that it comes from a trust and a little bit of freedom is part of the ingredients in being creative.

所以我感激的是，有时人们不参与你如何做事。他们想要结果。所以我就玩了我刚才提到的那些实验，就像设计一种新的工作方式。

And so I'm grateful that sometimes people don't get involved with how you do something. They want the results. And so I've played with those experiments I just mentioned to it's like designing a new way to work.

你如何说服高层领导，让他们觉得这是必要的？哪怕只是做一个 12 周的实验，你仍然需要像你说的那样，把他们从工作时间里拉出来。而且我感觉你在整个职业生涯中，似乎有种超能力，能跟商业人士、高层领导，不管是谁，用一种神奇的方式沟通。我不知道那是什么。所以我很想知道，你是怎么说服他们，让你从工作之外的不同兴趣中带来的这些东西是必要的？这并不容易，其他人甚至很难说服别人，创造力在公司里是必要的。那么，你如何说服像谷歌这样的大公司——它们非常技术驱动，我想象中也非常数据驱动、指标驱动——让他们相信你需要慢下来，需要做一些可能非线性、尚未被证明的事情？

How do you convince senior leadership that that is needed? Even to do an experiment for whatever 12 weeks, you still need to, as you said, like take them out of their work time. And I have a feeling you have some sort of superpower throughout your career to talk to business people, senior leadership, whoever that is, in some sort of magical way. I don't know what it is. So I would love to know that convinces them that all these things that you bring from these different interests that you have outside of work are needed which is not easy and other people struggle to even convince people that creativity is needed in a company. So, how do you convince big businesses like Google who are very tech driven, very I can imagine data driven, metrics driven that you need to slow down, that you need to do things that maybe are nonlinear and haven't been proven yet.

嗯，你只要证明它有效就行。我的意思是，我觉得没什么——嗯，首先，我父亲在为雷蒙德·洛伊工作后自己开了公司，他常带我去，那时我还是个小女孩，我会坐在办公室里，他给我蜡笔，但我清楚地记得，我听着、看着他和团队合作的方式，以及他对待他们的方式。现在回想起来，我无意中吸收了很多东西。但这就是那种事情，你偶尔得先做了再请求原谅，因为你相信你会拿出证据。

Well, you just prove that it works. I mean, I think there's nothing—well, first of all, my dad had his own business after working for Raymond Loewy, and he used to bring me down as a little girl and I would sit in the office and he'd give me crayons, but I distinctly remember listening and watching the way he worked with his team and the way he treated them. And when I look back now, I learned a lot from unconsciously absorbing some of that. But it's one of those things where you once in a while have to do it and ask forgiveness later because you have faith that you'll show the proof.

而且，首先，我个人感兴趣的一些事情，我会利用自己的时间或休假时间去研究。但就团队而言，你知道，有时候我会受到质疑，比如我记得在谷歌早期，我和团队说：“这款手机需要这个颜色。”他们说：“数据在哪？”我说：“在我们的潜意识里。”你知道，我说：“你知道吗，我们接收的信息 95% 进入潜意识，只有 5% 留在意识中？”所以当我们设计师集体凭直觉觉得蓝色是对的，这实际上基于比你认知思维中可能拥有的更多的数据。所以这为我争取了几个月的时间。然后我永远不会忘记，大约六个月后，营销主管打电话给我说：“天哪，我刚看完奥斯卡颁奖典礼，每个女人的礼服都是那种蓝色。你怎么知道的？”所以，你知道，你得挑选时机，偶尔勇敢一点，但没有比直接去做并证明它更好的方法了。

And so, first of all, some of the things that I'm interested in personally I do on my own time or take vacation time to study the things that I do. But in terms of with the team, you know, there are times I've been challenged, like I remember first at Google when my team and I said, "This phone needs to be in this color." They said, "Where's the data that shows that?" And I said, "It's in our subconscious." You know, and I said, "Do you know that 95% of what we take in goes into our subconscious and only 5% stays in our conscious mind?" So when we collectively as designers get an intuitive hit that blue is the right color, it's actually based on more data than you might have in your cognitive mind. And so that bought me a few months. And then I'll never forget when that question was asked and about six months later the head of marketing calls me up and said, "Oh my god, I just finished watching the Academy Awards and every woman's gown was in that color blue. How did you know?" And so, you know, you have to pick your shots and be brave every so often, but there's no better way than to just do it and prove it.

如果它没有被证明呢？你有没有做过真正失败的事情？因为那是实验的一部分。实验会失败。

What if it doesn't prove? Have you done something that actually fails? Because that's part of the experimentation. Experiments fail.

哦，当然。是的。

Oh, for sure. Yeah.

那你如何从中恢复过来？你会想，我相信它。当你有一个失败的实验时，你如何让高层领导再次信任你？

And how do you come back from that? You're like, I believe in it. How do you make your senior leadership trust you again when you had a failed experiment?

嗯，你知道，这就像过往记录——就像在时尚界，那是我起步的地方，你有时会冒险，但最终会平衡，因为当你真正做对的时候，胜利是如此之大，足以弥补两三次没有完全按你预期发展的小失败。所以我认为，你知道，可能会这样，但总的来说，显然必须有足够的胜利让你拥有信誉。所以有时我们会采取两三种不同的方法来覆盖自己，因为当我们在实验且不确定时，我们会把它放在消费者面前，看看他们的想法。所以这是一个很好的验证方式。你知道，当你下大赌注时，也应该把它放在消费者面前，我们确实这么做了，但我们总会有些长线赌注，我们从中学习很多，但在下大赌注之前，我们会先做合理性检查。

Well, you know, it's like track record in that—it's like even in fashion, which is what I started in, you take chances sometimes and it balances out because when you really get it right, the win is so big that it makes up for the small two or three times where it didn't work exactly the way you want. So I think, you know, it can be like this, but overall there clearly has to be enough wins that you have the credibility. And so sometimes what we'll do is even take two or three different approaches to cover ourselves, because when we're experimenting and don't know, then we'll put it in front of consumers and see what they think. And so that's a good way to validate. You know, when you're placing big bets, one should put it in front of the consumer as well, which we do, but we will always have some long shots that we're taking and we learn a lot from that, but we'll sanity check ourselves before we place huge bets.

我最近为我的生日策划了一个大型派对。那是一个重要的生日，花了几个月的时间准备，我很享受那几个月的工作。就像设计一场百老汇演出。然后我迫不及待地想参与其中，因为我迫不及待地想感受——它会像我预期的那样吗？因为我有一个想法。就像当你设计某样东西或有一个愿景，然后你执行它。这就像一个大实验。我会不会感受到我希望的感受？不仅仅是我，还有我所有的客人。

I recently planned a big party for my birthday. It was a big birthday and it took months of work and I loved the months of work. It was like designing a Broadway show. And then I couldn't wait to be in it because I couldn't wait to feel—would it feel the way I projected it would feel? Because I had an idea. It's just like when you design something or you have a vision and then you execute against it. It's like a big experiment. Would I feel the way I had hoped I would feel? Not just me, but all of my guests.

它符合你的预期吗？

Was it what you expected?

天哪，它比我想象的还要好，因为那非常复杂。最后，他们称之为“艾维的高振动夏令营”，因为那是一个为期三天的活动，我让所有客人都带来他们的礼物和才能。因为我意识到我一直——我非常感激那些出现在我生命中的人，这些年来我收集到的这些人对我来说真的很有意义，我和他们以各种方式保持着关系——快乐不仅仅是为了我自己。我请其中一些人把他们的天赋作为礼物送给别人。所以，有一位是画家，他教绘画课。有一位是声音疗愈师，她给大家做声音浴。所以，就像夏令营一样，你可以选择——那是一个为期三天的活动。你可以选择你想体验的两件事。然后我们一起吃饭。所以人们非常快乐，我想，哦，你知道，我有这样的画面，事情会是这样，人们会真正相处融洽，但你永远不知道。虽然我想，好吧，共同点是他们都知道我，所以也许那是粘合剂。但它比我想象的还要好。我的意思是，那三天里发生了改变人生的事情。我在这里就是一个建造者。我建造了一个派对或一个活动。是的。我的意思是，无论你知道，但有的是与他人一起打造产品，有的是建造房屋，有的是打造品牌。这就像同样的心态。我有点热爱这个过程。所以拥有一个疯狂想法的过程。

Oh my god, it was better than I thought because it was very complicated. At the end, they were calling it Ivy's High Vibrational Summer Camp because it was a three-day event where I had all my guests bring their gifts and talents. Because I realize I have been—I am so grateful for the people who have been in my life that I've collected over the years are really meaningful to me and I'm in relationship with in various ways—that the joy of it wasn't just for me. Some of them I asked them to give the gift of themselves to others. So, one was a painter and he gave painting classes. One was a sound healer and she gave sound baths to people. So, it was like summer camp in that you got to pick—it was a three-day event. And you got to pick what two things that you wanted to experience. And then we had meals together. And so people were so joyful and I thought, oh, this is, you know, I had this image that that's the way it would be, and that people would really get along with each other, but you never know. Although I thought, okay, the commonality is they all know me and so maybe that's a glue. But it was better than I thought. I mean life-changing things happened over those three days. I'm a builder right here. I built a party or an event. Yeah. I mean, whether you know, but there's building products with others, there's building houses, there's building brands. It's like it's the same mentality. And I kind of love the process. So the process of having a crazy idea.

因为这太疯狂了，我要把 100 多人聚在一起，找个地方待三天，然后组织人员。我们不得不，总之，这非常复杂，是复杂性的巅峰。当然，有些时候我会为此工作到凌晨 2 点，我丈夫会看着我说：“我希望这值得。”我说：“会值得的，你知道，但只有身在其中你才知道，对吧？”但我愿意冒这个险。有几分钟我心想：“天哪，如果这失败了，而且那里有我一生中最敬佩的 100 个人，或者超过 100 个，你知道。”然后我说：“你知道吗？我要非常努力地思考每一个细节，让这件事成功。”最后，人们说：“我们什么时候再来一次？”我说：“天哪，再过 10 年吧。”不，每 10 年我真的很庆祝，因为我非常享受变老。

Because this was crazy, like I'm going to bring over 100 people together, find a place for three days, and then organize people. We had to, anyway, it was very complex, complexity at its height. And sure, there were moments where I would stay up till 2 in the morning working on this, and my husband would look at me and go, 'I hope this is worth it.' I'm like, 'It'll be worth it, you know, but you never know until you're in it, right?' But I was willing to take the risk. And there were a few minutes where I thought, 'Oh my god, if this fails and there are the 100 people I admire the most in my life, or over 100, you know.' And I go, 'You know what? I'm going to work really hard to think of every detail to make this thing work.' And at the end, people are like, 'When are we doing this again?' Like, 'Oh my god, not for another 10 years.' No, every 10 years I really celebrate because I have so enjoyed getting older.

这是在某个特定年龄发生的，还是逐渐发生的？

Did it happen at a certain age or kind of gradually?

逐渐地，逐渐地，逐渐地。我不想误导你，因为我仍然对我工作中的数百人负责，我的意思是，但这不同。这不是我在物质世界所做的事情。我不知道怎么说。这更像是一种想法，一种心态。这是一种心态。

Gradually, gradually, gradually. And I don't want to mislead because I still I'm accountable to hundreds of people in the job I do, and I mean I, but it's different. It's not the what I do in the material world. I don't know how to say it. It's more a thought, a mindset. It's a mindset.

而且没关系，就像有些人，再说一次，这是我，也许有些人

And it's okay, like some people again, this is me, maybe some people

我觉得有些人会随着变老而变得沮丧，因为他们变得怀旧，“哦，我永远不会那样，我永远不会……”我可能，但永远别说永远。我本来想说我也许再也不会在桌子上跳舞了，但我不应该这么说，因为我了解自己。我非常，总是有那种可能性的。

I think get depressed as they get older because they get nostalgic, 'Oh, I'll never be that, I'll never be...' I probably, but never say never. I was going to say I'll probably never dance on tables again, but I shouldn't say that because I know me. I very much, there's always that possibility.

我们今晚要做什么？

What are we doing tonight?

是啊。

Yeah.

但我只是觉得，嗯，我只是感激自己过上了美好的生活，这是一份不断给予的礼物。而且我觉得，我再次看到一切事物中的美。你觉得，而且我确定你没有遗憾，但你觉得如果你能回到你生命的任何时代，或者如果你能建议某人多注意某些事情，或者不要可能改变，但也许你会如何最大化你或任何人的生活？你会……

But I just think it's um I'm just in gratitude for a life well-lived that is a gift that keeps on giving. And I think I again I see the beauty in everything. Do you feel like, and I'm sure you don't have regrets, but do you feel like if you could go back to any era of your life, or if you could recommend someone to pay attention to something more or to not to potentially change, but maybe how would you maximize that of your life or anyone else's? What would you...

你知道，这很有趣，因为我告诉我女儿，即使嗯，你你你只负责在那个时刻用你拥有的材料和信息做出最好的决定，你必须过一种没有遗憾的生活，这就是我对待生活的方式。所以你总是可以说会有更好的男人，会有更好的工作，但如果你这样做，你会变得神经质。就像你必须注意。再说一次，这回到你的感觉。在这个时刻，用我最好的判断，知道我所知道的一切，我应该这样做，接受这份工作，或者和这个人在一起，因为你不可能，然后如果出了问题，你必须相信自己，你会说，你知道，这行不通，我必须继续前进。不是说你应该对承诺随意，但你永远不会拥有所有信息。就像你永远不知道接下来会发生什么。所以你不能为此发疯。你只能说，你只能为你所拥有的决定负责。所以，我不能回头看，就像，你知道，我结过婚又离婚了。我不后悔那段关系。如果我回头看，尽管有一些非常艰难的时期，但我学到了很多，我不后悔。即使回头看一些缺点，我也不想有任何不同。嗯，你知道，他和我一起创作的最好的艺术品是我们的女儿，那份礼物继续存在。所以我必须经历那一切。所以我回头看，老实说，现在没有一件事是我能说，我看到了，我看到了，这实际上是变老的美妙之处。你回头看，当你不再身处其中时，你会看得更清楚。你可以看到它，然后说，啊，我必须经历那一切才能学到那个，才能现在做这个。所以一切都开始变得有意义。所以，我要说的是，在当下，嗯，事情可能没有意义。所以，如果你做事情是出于正确的理由，比如不利用别人，如果你是发自内心的，我觉得你可能在当下不知道，但它会揭示它是必要的，让你进入下一步。你知道，就像那个游戏。我不知道你这里有没有，滑梯和梯子，一个棋盘游戏。你爬上梯子，然后你可能会滑下滑梯。嗯，但这是滑梯和梯子。就像有起有落。嗯，你回头看，你会意识到那些低谷让你，推动了你，比如，好的，我给你举个例子。我的父亲，我非常敬佩他，他为 Raymond Loewy 工作。他是一名设计师。我想成为像他一样的人。他，我就是从他那里学到了很多。当到了上大学的时候，我告诉他我想去的艺术学校。他说：“哦，Ivy，嫁给一个有钱人，当一名学校老师，夏天放假。”在我心里，我想：“去你的。你怎么敢夺走我的梦想，那些你通过让我追随你而给我的梦想。”我非常生气。在我心里，我想：“我会证明给你看。”我母亲说，他对我说那话的那天，因为你怎么敢夺走我的梦想。

You know, it's interesting because I tell my daughter that even um you you you're only responsible for making the best decision in that moment with the material the information you have and you have to lead a life of no regrets and that's the way I let it. And so you could always say will there be a better guy, will there be a better job, but you become neurotic if you do that. It's like there you have to pay attention. Again, it goes back to your feeling. Does this feel like in this moment um with my best judgment, knowing all the things I know that I should act this way or take this job or be with this person because there's no way you can and you then have to trust yourself if something goes wrong that you're going to say this, you know, this didn't work and I have to move on. Not that you should be um casual about making commitments at all, but you never have all the information. It's like you never know what's coming up. So you can't get yourself crazy about it. You can just say you can only be responsible for making the decisions of what you have. So therefore, I can't look back like even, you know, I was married and divorced. I don't regret that relationship. If I look back at even though there were some very hard times attached to it like I learned so much and I no regrets. I wouldn't have wanted to do it anything different even looking back at some of the downsides. Um you know the best work of art he and I had did together was our daughter and and that gift lives on. And so I had to go through that. So I look back and there isn't one thing that I honestly now can say I see I see that's the beauty of getting older actually. You look back and you see things clearer when you're not in it anymore. You can see it and go ah I had to go through that to learn that to be able to now do this. And so it all starts making sense. So, what I will say is in the moment, um, things may not make sense. So, if you're doing things for the right reason, like not taking advantage of someone, if you're coming at it from the heart, I feel like you may not know at the moment, but it will reveal that it was necessary to get you to the next step. You know, it's like that game. I don't know if you have it here, shoots and ladder, a board game. You climb up the ladder and then you may go down the sliding pond. Um, but it's shoots and ladders. It's like there are ups and downs. Um, and you look back and you realize those down times got you to propelled you like, okay, I'll give you an example. My my father who I really admired, he worked for Raymond Loey. He was a designer. I wanted to be like him. He I was just I learned so much from him. And when it came time to going to college, I told him the arts school I wanted to go to. And he said, 'Oh, Ivy, marry someone rich and be a school teacher and have your summers off.' And in my head, I was like, 'F you. How dare you rob me of my dreams, the very dreams that you gave me from me following you.' I was so mad. And in my head, it was like, 'I'll show you.' My mother said the day he said that to me because it was how dare you rob me of my dreams.

你看，我那时就知道，人生就是用来实现梦想的。她跟我说：“Ivy，那天你就不自觉地跟他较上劲了。”我当时想：“我会证明给你看的。”果然，我进了他那一行。而他说那话是出于爱。多年后我才明白，他之所以那么说，是因为他作为设计师、创意人，在经济不景气的时候吃过苦头，所以他是出于爱，不想让我受苦。那时候——我们说的是 70 年代——他觉得，你知道的，那是个选项：你可以就做某人的妻子，被人照顾。可他不知道，那反而激怒了我。我为此气了好几年，心想你怎么敢，你根本不爱我，你怎么敢叫我去做那种事。后来我才意识到，天哪，那其实是最好的事，因为我那股“我要证明给他看，我要追随我的梦想，没人能夺走它”的韧劲——那是个礼物。难怪我生来就是他的女儿。所以这就是个例子，是的，那很痛苦。我想我气了一年，然后我意识到——在谷歌大楼里——我意识到那是个礼物。

See, I knew even at that time that life is here to live out your dreams. And she said, 'Ivy, that's the day you unconsciously went into competition with him.' I was like, 'I'll show you.' And sure enough, I went into his profession. And he said it out of love. I realized years later he said it out of love because he as a designer creative had had a hard time at times in life when the economy was bad, and so it was out of love he didn't want me to suffer. So in those days—and we're talking in the 70s now—he was like, you know, that was an option: you can just be somebody's wife and be taken care of. And so he little did he know that so triggered me because I was pissed off about it for years, like how dare you, you know, he doesn't love me, how dare he tell me to go do that. And then I realized, oh my god, it was the best thing ever because my tenacity of 'I'm going to show him, I'm going to follow my dreams and no one can take that away from me'—that was a gift. And no wonder I was born into being his daughter. So that's an example where yeah, it was painful. I think for a year I was pissed off, and then I realized it—oh, the Google building—I realized it was a gift.

现在我知道你的精力和动力从哪来的了。就是那种最初的反应。

Now I know where your energy and drive comes from. It's that initial reaction.

是啊。嗯，有人把我推向了对我非常重要的东西。这就是对立面的张力，你知道的。而且我觉得有时候——你知道，时尚界有句话，有时尚就有反时尚。生活里充满了对立面的张力。而且它们往往是有原因的。比如我相信现在，在一定程度上，AI 的发展会对人类极其有用。当然，任何新技术都有其弊端。关键在于人们拿它来做什么？但我也认为，这种对立面的张力，是为了让我们用 AI 这种新技术时更有创造力。我们将不得不更了解我们自身的人性，以及我们内在的技术。所以，从我的角度看，这其实是件好事。

Yeah. Well, someone pushed me against something that was very important to me. It's the tension of opposites, you know. And I think sometimes that's—you know, they say in fashion, there's the trend and the anti-trend. And life is full of tension of opposites. And often they're there for a reason. Like I believe right now, in part, this development with AI is going to be incredibly useful to humanity. And of course there's a downside to any new technology that's been developed. It's about what do people use it for? But I also think the tension of opposites is to be more creative with this new technology called AI. We're going to have to know more about our own humanity and our own internal technologies. So it's actually a great thing, is my perspective.

让我们回到你精彩的职业生涯和你做过的一切。不只是事业上，我觉得你过着如此精彩的生活，而且每天都在继续。即使今天，我们也在做我一生中想都不敢想的事。那真是迷人。但你在 Studio 54 狂欢过。你——

Let's go back to your incredible career and history of everything you've done. Not just career-wise, but also I felt like you lived such an incredible life and keep living every day. Even today we were doing things that I would never imagine doing in my life. So that was fascinating. But you've partied at Studio 54. You've—

现在你在跟我约会，不过是的。

Now you're dating me, but yes.

不过好吧，我们就从那儿开始。那儿怎么样？我没去过。跟我说说那儿是怎样的。

But okay, let's start there. How was it? I haven't been. Tell me how it was there.

不，我非常感激在纽约长大，我从时尚业起步，70 年代为 Calvin Klein、Swatch 这样的人工作。是的，70 年代末。那是纽约一个不可思议的时代。那是 Andy Warhol 和 Bianca Jagger 的时代。而且我做的每一份工作，我都非常——即使年轻时——我有点像在说，我想理解或学习。比如跟着 Calvin Klein，他有一种天生的能力，能捕捉时代精神。我就想，他是怎么做到的？然后我跟他工作，结果发现他的秘诀之一，就是周五晚上带我们出去跳舞，教我们如何观察房间里的每个人，感受那种能量，感受什么正在成形。我从 Swatch 学到了草根营销，因为他们会给我们办公室每个人四块手表和 50 美元，叫我们去——这里有个主题，显然是跳舞——但去俱乐部跳舞，手腕上戴满手表。所以我就想，哇，原来可以这样引领潮流。所以，我是说，我确实是从心出发选的工作，但现在我意识到它们是多么直觉性的战略选择，因为我知道我是设计师、艺术家或创作者，但我也知道要成功，我需要理解这些不同的组成部分。所以我在潜意识里非常有策略地选择我必须学的东西，以便做到最好，并确保——你知道，你可以有世界上所有好主意，但如果你不知道怎么把它们成功地带到世界上并营销它们，那也没用。所以我很感激当时在那里，就像我感激过去 11 年在科技领域一样，因为这非常重要。而且我一直有点未来主义者，甚至在 Mattel Toys 时，我做了第一个内置 110 个传感器的娃娃，因为它登上了《连线》杂志封面。所以我记得我去谷歌面试时，他们说：“嗯，你做过科技产品吗？”我说：“是的，我做过一个带 110 个传感器的娃娃，还上了《连线》封面。而且我也是个人文主义者。”所以我认为技术是我们的工具，而且它应该是放大我们人性的工具。所以对我来说，随着世界的发展，身处科技领域，在这个时代也是一份巨大的礼物，因为我觉得我们需要问一问：这为人类解决了什么问题？技术可以成为如此神奇的工具。

No, I am very grateful to have grown up in New York, and I started in fashion and I worked for people like Calvin Klein, Swatch in the 70s. Yeah, late 70s. And it was an incredible time in New York. It was the days of Andy Warhol and Bianca Jagger. And with each of the jobs I took, I was very—even when I was young—I kind of said, I want to understand or learn. Like with Calvin Klein, it was like he had an innate ability to tap into the zeitgeist. I'm like, how does he do that? And then I work with him, and it ends up part of his secret was taking us out dancing on a Friday night and teaching us how to observe and look at everyone in that room and feel the energy and what feels like it's becoming. And I learned grassroots marketing from Swatch because they would give all of us in the office four watches and $50 and tell us to go—there was a theme here, obviously dancing—but go dancing in clubs wearing the watches up and down our wrist. And so I'm like, wow, so you could start your own trend that way. And so it was—I say I did pick my jobs from my heart and my head, but now I realize how intuitively strategic they were because I knew I was a designer or an artist or a creator, but I also knew to succeed I need to understand these different components. And so I was subconsciously very strategic in what I knew I had to learn to be the best I could be and to make sure—you know, you could have all the great ideas in the world, but if you don't know how to bring them into the world successfully and market them, it doesn't matter. So I was very grateful to be there then, as I am grateful to be in technology the last 11 years, because it's so important. And I was always a bit of a futurist, and even at Mattel Toys I did the first baby doll that had 110 sensors in it because it was on the cover of Wired magazine. So I remember when I interviewed for Google, they said, 'Well, have you ever done a piece of technology?' And I said, 'Yeah, I did a baby doll with 110 sensors on it and was on the cover of Wired. And I'm also a humanist.' So I think technology is a tool for us, and it's a tool that should amplify our humanity. So for me, being in technology as the world progresses here, it's been at this time a great gift also, because I feel like we need to ask questions of what problem is this solving for humanity. Technology can be such an amazing tool.

我很高兴你提到你是直觉性地有策略，因为当你看看你的简历或任何传记，确实感觉你总能在公司最好的时候加入最好的公司。比如 Swatch 是标志性的。Calvin Klein 在那个时候也是热门之地，正如你所说，真正感知趋势和未来。所以有趣的是你如何描述这一点。你总是在观察正在发生什么。所以，那可能是个直觉决定，但它来自你感知到的所有这些数据——这家公司有有趣的事情在发生，我想参与其中。

I'm glad you mentioned that you were intuitively strategic because when you look at your CV or whatever biography, it does feel like you were at the right company at the best time of that company. Like Swatch was iconic. Calvin Klein again at that time was the place to be, as you said, really sensing the trends and what's coming next. So it's interesting how you describe that. You were kind of observing always like what's happening. So therefore it might have been intuitive decision, but it came from all this data that you were sensing that there is something interesting going on in this company. I want to be part of it.

是啊。嗯，我觉得你说得对。我的意思是，现在我可以回看说那是有策略的。当时我并没有意识到。但 GAP 的整个数字社交热潮开始时，我是那里的 CMO，所以我在那里学到了——那是个学习那套技能的好公司。所以，嗯，我想，正如我之前说的，注意什么能吸引我的注意力。所以我一直觉得——也许这甚至更早就来自 Calvin 那段经历，关于如何与时代精神保持同步——所以我能感觉到这家公司适合当下。而且我想我之前跟你说过，很奇怪，就在我会感到无聊的时候，因为我最擅长的是要么开始新事物，要么面对新挑战，但如果只是待在死水里，我就会无聊。所以，有些公司我只会待三四年，因为没有足够的后续挑战让我留下。

Yeah. Well, I think you're right. I mean, now I can look back and say it was strategic. Then I didn't realize it. But I was CMO at the GAP when the whole digital social craze started, and so I learned there—it was a great company to learn that skill set. So, well, I think, as I said earlier, pay attention to what gets my attention. And so I always felt—and maybe it came from even early on with the time with Calvin about how you stay plugged in to the zeitgeist—so I could sense this company is right for now. And I think I was telling you earlier, it was uncanny just when I would get bored, because I do best when I'm either starting something new or have a new challenge in front of me, but if it's just staying in still water, I get bored. And so, some companies I would only last three or four years because there wasn't enough next challenge to keep me there.

但每当我内心深处涌起那种“哇，我已经在这里做完了我能做的一切，也学完了我能学的一切”的感觉时——因为我选择工作从来不是基于金钱或头衔。事实上，如果你看看我的履历，我当过总裁，然后去做副总裁，后来又做艺术总监。别人怎么称呼我无所谓。关键在于：我能从这家公司学到我觉得需要学的东西吗？他们会把我用在最擅长的事情上吗？如果这种互惠关系不存在，我就不会接受。所以那是我无意识的雷达。现在回头看，我能看到所有这些经历如何让我擅长今天所做的工作，或者让我在当时的工作中如鱼得水。但我从来没有五年计划。我认识一些人，他们有计划，紧紧抓住不放，如果还没晋升到下一个级别，就会非常焦虑或不耐烦，觉得自己应该已经到某个位置了。我从不那样看。我总是在拿到头衔之前就做下一个级别的工作。我想我从来没有走进去要求升职。我会自然地突破边界，做更高层次的工作，然后得到回报。我不想沉迷于头衔。我知道我应该埋头苦干，做好工作，回报自然会来。

But whenever I would feel that deep feeling of 'wow, I've done everything I could do here and I've learned everything I could learn here'—because I always took my jobs not based on money or title. In fact, if you look at my biography, I was a president, then I went to be a VP, then I was an art director. It doesn't matter what you called me. It's about what am I going to learn from this company that I feel I need to learn, and are they going to use me for what I do best. If that reciprocal relationship wasn't going to be there, I wouldn't take it. So that was my unconscious radar. Now I look back and I can see how all these experiences made me good at what I'm doing today, or made me right for what I was doing at that time. But I never had a five-year plan. Some people I know have one, and they hold on to it, and they get very freaked out or impatient if they haven't advanced to that next level. They feel they should be in a certain place already. I never looked at it that way. I always did the next level job before I got the title. I don't think I ever had to walk in and ask for a promotion. I would naturally push the boundaries and do next-level work, and then get rewarded for it. I didn't want to be obsessed with that. I knew I should just head down, do the great work, and the rewards will come.

那是不是意味着要长时间工作，周末也要加班？

Did it mean working long hours and weekends?

是的，肯定有过这样的时刻，现在也还有，尤其是当你变得有责任感、认真对待自己做的事情时，我确实如此。比如一场时装秀，最后一刻有人说：“天哪，我们决定颜色错了。”然后你熬夜重新染毛衣，不睡觉。是的，有过这样的时刻。但我一直很懂得保持生活平衡的重要性。如果你极度疲惫或精力耗尽，你无法对自己或你的团队好。所以我一直对替代性的健康和养生方式感兴趣，即使在它流行之前。如果我感到不堪重负或失衡，我会使用声音和音乐。这些我好奇的东西在我生活中并行不悖。人们会在各种工作中说：“你责任这么大，却看起来那么禅意或那么平和。”有些关于自己的事情，直到别人指出来你才意识到。我说：“是的，我明白这很重要。如果我感觉不好，我无法对团队里的任何人好。”所以那是一种自然的倾向。但当然，随之而来的也有像前几天我去东京待了一天，人们说：“你疯了，飞那么远到东京。”我说：“我必须在东京查看一些需要我注意的事情。”所以我飞了一天，第二天到达，做了我必须做的事，然后回到飞机上。但我知道回家后如何恢复平衡。

Yeah, there were definitely times, and there still are times, especially as you become accountable and responsible and you take what you do very seriously, which I do. For example, a fashion show where at the last minute someone says, 'Oh my god, we decided it was the wrong color,' and you stay up all night and you re-dye the sweaters and don't go to sleep. Yeah, there were times. But I've been good at understanding how important it is to keep a balanced life. You can't be good for yourself or your people if you're incredibly burnt out or drained. So I've always been interested in alternative ways of health and well-being, even before it became popular. I used sound and music if I ever felt like I was getting overwhelmed or imbalanced. These things I was curious about ran side by side in my life. People would say in these various jobs, 'You have so much responsibility and you seem so zen or so even-keeled.' You don't realize some things about yourself until people point them out. I'm like, 'Yeah, I understand that it's important. I can't be good for anyone on my team if I'm not feeling good.' So that's been a natural inclination. But sure, with it have come things like the other day I went to Tokyo for a day, and people said, 'You're crazy, you flew all the way to Tokyo.' I said, 'I had to check out something in Tokyo that needed my attention.' So I flew one day, arrived the next day, did what I had to do, and got back on the plane. But I knew how to get back in balance when I got home.

那你如何确保自己不会偏向某一边？因为，再说一次，我是一个非常有条理的人。感觉你是一个非常凭直觉的人。所以我可能问问题的方式不对，因为我想要一个配方。我想要一个结构，让我能像你一样。比如，我有一个规矩，周五不加班。其他任何一天我都可以加班，但周五不会。但我喜欢周一加班，因为那是在一周开始前完成很多事情的好方法。

So how do you make sure you don't swing one way or the other? Because, again, I'm a very structured person. It does feel like you're a very intuitive person. So I might be asking a question in the wrong way because I want a recipe. I want a structure to how to be like you. For example, I have a rule that I don't work late on Fridays. I work late any other day, but I wouldn't work late on Fridays. But I love working late on Mondays because that's an easy way to get a lot of stuff done before the week kind of starts.

嗯，首先我想说，你不想成为我，你想成为你自己。所以你刚刚回答了自己的问题，因为我的公式不一定适合你。所以，是的，我有类似的做法。别被误导了。我有右脑和左脑。如果我没有很多结构，我无法做我所做的事情。而且我认为，如果你是有条理的，就像我所说的在约束中设计——你可以变得更有创造力。我相信通过一些结构，你可以更有创造力。所以我会做一些事情，比如，你知道，这是选择。我必须在周末投入一些时间，我宁愿在周日早上做，因为我觉得我需要休息。到了周五，我觉得我需要进入不同的模式，那会让我以全新的心态去解决我试图解决的难题。所以我会努力工作，尽情玩耍。我会在周五晚上、周六和周六晚上尽情玩耍，然后周日我觉得我有点想念工作，我会花一个早上或半天或一整天工作。所以每个人都有自己的方法。我不认为有一个统一的答案。对我有效的可能对你无效。关键是找到适合你的方法，并知道你在解决什么问题。你在解决的是不让自己精疲力竭，保持平衡。有句话叫“不要更努力地工作，而要更聪明地工作。”作为领导者，要知道哪些事情只有我能做，哪些事情我的团队能做？在微观管理和不管理之间找到平衡。这些都是因公司而异的，需要调整并了解你的团队。有些人可能需要更多的管理，有些人则不需要。这就像一门艺术。我甚至把这些挑战当作一个艺术项目来对待，这意味着我对我正在解决的问题感到好奇，然后我会做不同的实验来看到底什么有效。

Well, I would say first of all, you don't want to be like me, you want to be like you. So you just answered your own question because it's not like my formula would work for you. So, yeah, I have a similar thing. Don't be fooled. I have my right and left brain. I couldn't do what I do if I didn't have a lot of structure. And I think if you're structured, it's like what I said about designing within constraints—you can become more creative. I believe that by having some structure, you can be more creative. So I'll do things like, you know, it's choices. I have to put in some time over the weekend, and I would rather do it on Sunday mornings because I feel like I need the break. Come Friday, I feel like I need to go into a different mode, and that will make me able to approach the hard problems I'm trying to solve with a fresh mind. So I will work hard, play hard. I'll play hard for that Friday night and Saturday and Saturday night, and then Sunday I feel like I kind of miss working, and I'll spend the morning or half a day or a day working. So everyone has their own methodology. I don't think there's any one answer. What works for me may not work for you. The thing is finding what works for you and knowing what you're solving for. You're solving for not getting burned out, keeping yourself in balance. There are sayings like 'don't work harder, work smarter.' And knowing as a leader, what is it that only I can do, and what can my people do? Finding that balance between micromanaging and not managing. These are all things that vary by company, and it's about dialing it in and knowing your team. Some people may need more managing, others not. It's been an art. I've treated even those challenges as an art project, which means I've been curious about what question I'm solving for, and then I'll do different kinds of experiments to see what works.

我们非常幸运能邀请你在未来伦敦学院的设计领导者项目中授课。所以你见过一些杰出的设计领导者，他们中的很多人都想成为首席设计官，所以他们来参加这个项目，我们帮助他们。而你是一位首席设计官。所以你见过那个位置是什么样的。有趣的是，你提到你不在乎职位头衔。我记得你第一次跟我提到你是首席设计师时，显然那时你是副总裁，你说：“哦，我想我不再是副总裁了。我想我是首席设计官。”

We're obviously very lucky to have you teaching in our design leaders program at Future London Academy. So you've met some brilliant design leaders, and a lot of them want to be chief design officers, and that's why they come to the program where we help them. And you are a chief design officer. So you've seen what it is like to be there. It's interesting that you mentioned that you don't care about job titles. I remember the first time you mentioned to me that you're a chief designer. Obviously at that point you were a VP, like 'Oh, I think I'm not a VP anymore. I think I'm a chief design officer.'

我忘了我的头衔是什么了。

I forgot what I was called.

我当时就想“哦”，我喜欢你那么轻松地说出来，就像发生了一个技术性的变化。我现在是首席设计官了。

I was like 'Oh,' and I loved how you said it in such an easy way, like it's a technical change that happened. I'm a chief design officer now.

但对很多人来说，这是一个很大的激励。我认为这个头衔很重要，因为它不仅对个人，而且对公司都表明设计被认真对待，而且董事会里有一个推动设计的人。

But it's a lot for a lot of people, that's a big inspiration. And I think it's an important title because it signals, not just for the person but for the company, that design is taken seriously and there is a person in the boardroom who is driving that.

那你觉得设计和创意给董事会带来了什么？为什么首席设计官的存在很重要？

So what do you feel like design and creativity brings to the boardroom? Why is it important for a chief design officer to exist?

所以，你知道，也许我犹豫是因为即使在我担任副总裁时，按照我们的组织方式，我也在决策桌上有席位。所以这就是为什么差别不大。但我同意你的看法。关键是，再说一次，你叫什么头衔并不重要，重要的是在决策桌上有一席之地，因为创造性思维是一种不同的思维方式，绝对需要在其他思维方式中得到代表。所以，你知道，不同公司有不同程度的“设计主导”或不是，但拥有那种思维方式，因为创意人士……实际上，我记得一个领导团队，因为在我职业生涯早期，我就赢得了决策桌的一席之地。所以我有点被宠坏了。我在想那是什么时候发生的，大概在我快 40 岁的时候。我记得他们曾经请了一家外部公司来测试我们所有人，他们回来后对我当时的老板，公司总裁说：“你觉得房间里谁最有战略眼光？”然后每个人都指向别人。没有人指我。他们指的是财务人员。然后他说：“实际上，你的创意主管是房间里最有战略眼光的人，因为她的思维方式。”这对我来说并不意外，因为当然我们知道设计思维，当你通过设计解决问题时，你会被迫进行战略思考。但我记得每个人都转过头来，“哦”，因为你知道，有些公司和人们往往会对创意人或设计师的含义产生刻板印象。我认为我们都必须努力去改变这种看法。而且我想前几天有人告诉我，我很高兴听到，在初创公司，我认识的一位风险投资人说：“你知道，有创始人，通常他们在创始人或合伙人之后第一个要雇的是首席财务官，然后是人力资源，这是通常的排序。”她说：“Ivy，你会很高兴知道，现在很多初创公司的首席设计官是他们想雇的第二号人物。”我说，是的。我认为这是因为，所有帮助赢得这一地位的人，而且你知道，一些大公司已经发布了关于首席设计官角色的报告，这又是关于平衡的，对吧？它是一个等于整体的部分。不是说一个比另一个更好。这就像我们都必须努力成为一个完整的人。我认为公司必须在决策桌上拥有完整的学科组合，因为多样性等于创造力，思维多样性，如果桌上没有这种思维方式，你就缺少了一部分。但我很高兴知道这种需求越来越多。而且我实际上认为，随着 AI 和机器为我们做一些理性的事情，创造性思维将更加受到需求，因为我认为个人人类的创造性思维是每个人经验的副产品，是我们连接点和做出这些不太可能联系的能力，这些联系有时不像机器可能那么合乎逻辑或理性。所以这就是为什么我对未来非常兴奋，因为我认为非理性与理性、人类与机器的结合，将使我们集体更有创造力，并将我们带到一个我们现在无法想象的地方。所以我认为我们这些有创造力的人非常重要的是真正锻炼我们的想象力技能，以及学习 AI 技能，这样我们就能共同驾驶，把我们带到一个新的创造水平，我还不知道那会是什么样子，但我有点兴奋。

So, you know, maybe I hesitated because even when I was a VP, the way we're organized, I had a seat at the table. So that's why it wasn't that much difference. But I agree with you. The key is, and again it doesn't matter what you're called, to have that seat at the table, because creative thinking is a different mindset and that absolutely needs to be represented amongst the other mindsets. So, you know, different companies have different degrees of being design-led or not, but having that mindset, because creative people... Actually, I remember one leadership team, because early on in my career I earned a seat at the table. So I was a bit spoiled. I'm trying to think when it happened, like maybe in my late 30s. And I remember they once brought in an outside firm to test all of us, and they came back and they said to my boss, the president of the company at the time, 'Who do you think is the most strategic person in the room?' And they, everyone pointed to someone else. No one pointed to me. It was like the finance person. And he said, 'Actually, your head of creative is the most strategic person in the room because of the way she thinks.' And that wasn't a surprise to me, because then of course we know design thinking, there's a way when you're forced to think strategically when you're solving a problem through design. But I remember everyone turning, going 'Oh,' because you know, some companies and people tend to pigeonhole what it means to be creative or a designer. And I think we all have to earn the right to change that perception. And I think someone was just telling me the other day, and I was thrilled to hear it, in startups, someone I know who's a VC said, 'You know, there's the founder, and usually the first thing they ask to hire next after the founder or partners is the CFO, and then HR, and there's this usual pecking order.' She said, 'Ivy, you'd be so happy to know that now the chief design officer for a lot of startups is the number two person that they want to hire.' I'm like, yes. And I think it's because, and all the folks that have helped earn this, and there have been reports out there by some large firms about the role of the chief design officer, and it's again all about balance, right? It's a part that equals the whole. Not saying one is more or better than the other. It's just like we all have to work hard to be a whole person. I think a company has to have the full set of disciplines at that table, because diversity equals creativity, diversity of thinking, and without that mindset at the table, you're missing a part. But I was thrilled to know that that is being requested more. And I actually think with AI and the machines doing some of the rational things for us, the more the creative mind is going to be in demand, because I think an individual human's creative mind is a byproduct of each individual person's experience and our ability to connect dots and make these unlikely connections that sometimes aren't as logical or rational as a machine might be. And so that's why I'm very excited about the future, because I think it's the combination of the irrational and the rational, or the human and the machine, that will make us collectively more creative and take us to a place that we can't even imagine right now. So I think it's super important that those of us that are creative really exercise our imagination skills, as well as learn the AI skills, so that we can co-pilot together and take us to a new creative level that I don't know what that looks like yet, but I'm kind of excited about it.

这给了我很大的希望。谢谢你分享这个趋势正在上升。我们显然从我们这边看到了。我们与许多首席设计官交谈过，我们也看到对设计、创意、这种高层思维的需求，公司确实认识到存在商业优势，而且创造力、设计、创新与收入、财务指标之间存在直接联系。所以我很高兴看到这是一个更广泛的趋势，并且绝对希望更多的创意总监、设计负责人能达到那个阶段。所以谢谢你的分享。

This gives me so much hope. Thank you for sharing that it is rising. We obviously see it from our side. We talked to a lot of chief design officers and we also see there is a demand for design, for creativity, for this thinking at the sea level, and companies do recognize that there is a business advantage and there is a direct connection between creativity, design, innovation to the revenue, to financial metrics. So I'm glad to see it's a broader trend and definitely hope for more creative directors, heads of design to get to that stage. So thank you for sharing.

而且我认为，我想说的是，达到那个阶段的方法之一是，当人们问我应该怎么做时，我说在你职业生涯的早期，去一家小公司，在那里你可以体验扮演所有这些不同角色。我认为你必须全面发展才能达到那个位置。所以通过我担任首席营销官，理解营销，理解所有这些方面，因为当你成为首席设计官时，这不仅仅是你的创造力。而是你如何理解它在全局中所扮演的角色。而做到这一点的最好方法是你已经扮演过这些角色，即使是以一种小的方式，即使作为实习生。

And I think one of the ways, I just wanted to say, to get to that stage is, when people ask me what should I do, I say early in your career get in a small company where you can have the experience of playing all these different roles. Like I think you have to be well-rounded to get to that place. So by my having been a CMO and understanding marketing and understanding all of these aspects, because when you are a chief design officer, it's more than just your creativity. It's how you understand the role it plays within the full picture. And the best way you could do that is by having played those roles even in a small way, even as an intern.

100% 同意。我认为这就是我们与 Future London Academy 合作，向设计领导者教授商业技能、营销技能和其他所有东西的原因。

100% agree. I think this is why we do what we do with Future London Academy and teach business skills and marketing skills and all the other things to design leaders.

是的，这是必要的，因为我认为这类项目，如果你不能在公司内部体验，去了解它并说这种语言，而且你之前说过，我认为这是必要的。我也觉得我之所以成功，是因为我会说商业语言。我 20 多岁时有自己的公司，而且我当过艺术家。我能说两种语言，这很关键。你必须根据你想要实现的目标来使用你工具箱中的这些工具。

Yeah, it's imperative, because I think those kind of programs, if you can't experience within a company, to learn about it and speak the language, and you spoke earlier, I think it's imperative. I've also felt like I've been successful because I can speak business talk. I had my own company in my 20s, and I've been an artist. I could speak out of both, use both languages, and that is imperative. And you have to use those tools in your toolbox depending on what you're trying to make happen.

我们第一次见面时，那是一次非常精神上的体验。我不知道那个房间里发生了什么。我们和可爱的 Future London Academy 设计领导者一起去的，我记得你从谷歌的楼梯上走下来，在你那栋设计精美、屋顶有光线的建筑里，你穿着一件飘逸的长袍，我不知道，感觉你在发光。那非常……

The first time we met in person, it was a very spiritual experience. I don't know what happened in that room. We went with our lovely Future London Academy design leaders, and I remember you descending from the Google staircase in your beautifully designed building that has light from the roof, and you were wearing a kind of free-flowing gown, and I don't know, it felt like you were shining. It was very...

谢谢。

Thank you.

那是一次非常精神上的体验。

It was a very spiritual experience.

我无法解释，因为我们从楼上的色彩室开始，对吧？色彩与材料室。当所有人都离开那个房间时，我们都离开了大楼，在从你那里学到所有东西之后，每个人都说：“是我的错觉，还是确实有什么？我们真的感觉到了什么，而且非常奇怪。”

I cannot explain it, because we started upstairs in the color room, right? The color and materials room. And when everyone left the room, we all left the building, and after all the things that we learned from you, everyone said, "Is it just me, or was there something? We felt something really, and it was so strange."

嗯。

Huh.

那么，Ivy，你对人们做了什么？

So, what do you do to people, Ivy?

我不知道。我记得我就是像往常一样做自己，但我确实记得你的团队，也许是你和你的团队，把我放在了一个超级舒适的空间里，就像我说的，我一直觉得自己完全是我自己，但和你的团队在一起，我只是觉得被允许根据他们提出的问题去各种地方，也许还能扩展我分享的内容，因为感觉那就是我应该做的。而且我总是凭直觉行事。我忘了他们怎么称呼它。我身体里有一种感觉，就像当我感觉到某件事是真的时，脊椎会有一股寒意。我一直遵循这一点。这对我来说几乎是一种验证。那时我就知道，好吧，我发现了什么。而“发现了什么”可能只是指我本该过的生活，因为我觉得这对我们每个人来说都是不同的。

I don't know. I remember being myself as I always am, but I do remember that your group, maybe it was you and your group, put me into a super comfortable space that, like I said, I always feel I'm fully myself, but with your group, I just felt the permission to go to all sorts of places based on the questions they asked, and to maybe expand what I shared, because it felt like what I was supposed to be doing. And I always act on my intuition. I forget what they call it. There's a sensation I get in the body. It's like a certain chill that goes through my spine when I feel something's true. And I've lived by that. It's almost a validation for me. And that's when I know, okay, I'm on to something here. And onto something might mean just on the life that I'm supposed to be living, because I think it's very different for each of us.

我认为我们在这里只是为了过我们本该过的生活，而美和快乐就在于此，我非常感激我觉得自己一直走在那条路上。我知道有些人可能还没找到，但我对此非常感激。

I think we're here to live only the life that we're supposed to be living, and the beauty and joy is, and I'm very grateful that I feel I have been living that path. I know some people maybe haven't found that yet, but I'm very grateful for that.

有趣的是你提到了身体的感觉。我刚刚听了一个 Rick Rubin 的采访，他谈了很多关于他如何感受音乐并完全凭那种感觉选择音乐。每当他身体里有这种感觉，觉得有什么东西时，他就知道需要注意它。

It's interesting you mentioned the sensation of the body. I was just listening to an interview with Rick Rubin, and he talks a lot about how he feels the music and chooses the music exactly by that. Whenever he gets this feeling in the body that there is something, that's when he knows that it needs to be paid attention to.

哦，有意思。

Oh, interesting.

这很有道理，因为我觉得我们忘记了，我们变得非常理性，你知道。我认为我们一直在从脖子以上运作，发展我们的大脑，这很好，但我们是具身的存在，我们应该更多地使用身体并理解它。你知道，理解我们指尖的所有奇妙方式，我的意思是，我们超越思维接收所有这些信息的方式。

That makes a lot of sense, because I think we forget, we get very mental, you know. I think we've been operating from the neck up and developing our brain, which is great, but we are embodied beings, and we should use the body and understand it more. You know, understand all the amazing ways that our fingertips, I mean the way we take in all this information beyond our mind.

我觉得现在我们作为人类几乎不被允许，尤其是当我们长大后。我认为作为孩子，我们自然会感觉到这些东西，但当我们成为成年人，你应该理性。你应该非常逻辑，然后你进入职业生涯，尤其是作为创意人士，如果你说“我觉得这是对的”或“我对这种颜色有感觉”这样的话，人们不会认真对待你。那么，你如何确保自己仍然利用那种东西，而不是在成年后把它关闭呢？

I feel like it's almost we don't have permission as humans now, especially when we grow up. I think as kids we naturally feel these things, but when we become grown-ups, you're supposed to be rational. You're supposed to be very logical, and then you go into professional life, and you especially as a creative, if you say things like "I feel it's the right thing to do," or "I feel something about this color," people won't take you seriously. So how do you make sure you still harness whatever that is and don't shut it down as an adult?

是的。嗯，不。我觉得你提出了一个很好的观点，因为事实上，我非常相信玩耍。让我们从那里开始。我曾经是国家玩耍研究所的董事会成员。我从创建它的科学家那里学到，他对玩耍的定义是做一些与你每天不同的事情，但没有预定的结果。

Yeah. Well, no. I think you bring up a really good point, because in fact, I'm a big believer in play. Let's start there. And I once was on the board of the National Institute for Play. And I learned from the scientists that created that. His definition of play was doing something different than you do every day, but without a preconceived outcome.

嗯哼。

Mhm.

所以孩子们所做的就是跳进去闻玫瑰或摘花，或者拿一个纸板箱做成帐篷。没有目标。没有最终目的。只有纯粹的快乐和发现。

So what kids do is they just jump in to smell the roses or pick up the flowers or take a cardboard box and make it into a tent. There's no goal. There's no endgame. There's just pure joy and discovery.

你说得完全正确。然后发生的是，随着我们长大，就是“你打算用那个技能做什么”或“你不太擅长那个”。这让我们不再成为没有最终目标的好奇探索者。相信我，你必须，你知道，我理解你需要一些目标，但我们必须找到更平衡的生活，因为玩耍是创造力和快乐的来源。所以我喜欢领导设计团队，因为部分原因是试图创造条件让一些玩耍发生。但我确实认为我们必须重新评估，我看到，我认为它正在到来。我看到“感觉”这个词在野外被更多地使用。我们被告知要关闭我们的感受或把它们留给自己，我们现在知道，看看 Brené Brown 关于脆弱性的工作，分享我们的感受、说出我们的真相是很重要的。事实上，我认为尤其是现在我们有这么多微创伤，当它被藏在心里时，我们可能会生病。所以我们需要重新评估我们如何教育我们的孩子。

And you're absolutely right. Then what happens is as we grow up, it's "what are you gonna do with that skill" or "you're not very good at that." And it just shuts us down from being that curious explorer without an end goal. And believe me, you have to, you know, I understand you need to have some goals, but we have to find a more balanced life, because play is where the creativity and the joy comes from. And so I've loved running design teams because part of it is trying to create the conditions under which some play can happen. But I do think we have to reassess, and I see, I think it's coming. I'm seeing the words "feeling" being used more out in the wild. We were told to shut down our feelings or keep them to ourselves, and we now know, and you look at Brené Brown's work on vulnerability, that it's important that we share our feelings, speak our truth. And in fact, I think especially now we're having so many micro traumas that when it's held inside, we can get sick. So we kind of need to reassess how we're teaching our children.

而且你知道，我还认为，例如，我们通常关注孩子，至少在我那个时代，是“你长大后想成为什么？”然后你有点像选择一条泳道，然后坚持到底，对吧？那是你应该做的。我认为在未来，这种多学科的生活将是一个不断学习的过程，不会只有一件事你学习或做或成为。你会同时成为三样东西，或者你从一个职业开始，然后换到另一个。所以我们必须不要那么单一思维，而是稍微缩小范围，拥有更广泛的技能。这包括理解不仅仅是思考，而是存在，作为具身的存在，并更多地利用这一点。

And you know, I also think for example, we usually focus children, at least I was in my time, on "what do you want to be when you grow up?" And you kind of pick a swim lane and you stay the course, right? That's what you're supposed to do. And I think in the future it's going to be this multidisciplinary life will be a learning journey constantly, and there won't be just one thing that you learn or do or be. You'll be three things at the same time, or you'll start out in one profession and change to another. So we have to not be so single-minded and just kind of zoom out and have a broader set of skills. And that includes understanding that it's not just thinking, it's being, and being embodied beings and using that more.

你有没有过这样的时刻，觉得“我不知道我在这地球上到底该做什么了？”

Have you ever had moments where you feel like "I don't know anymore what am I supposed to do on this planet?"

哦，你看，不。看，这又是，我很感激，但我不认为我曾经有过那种感觉，因为我一直觉得，我可能没有，我有如此强烈的感觉，你知道，我父亲是个创意人士，我从一开始就有如此强烈的感觉，因为那是我成长的世界，就像这是我想在其中玩耍的世界，美丽的世界和……所以……我从未感到迷茫。总是有很多我可以做且感兴趣的事情。

Oh, see, no. See that's again, I'm grateful, but I don't think I've ever felt that, because I have always felt, I may not have, I had such a strong sense, you know, my dad was a creative, and I had such a strong sense from the very beginning, because it's the world I grew up in, like this is the world I want to play in, the world of beauty and the world of... so it was... I never felt at a loss. There was always so many things I could do and was interested in.

我必须诚实地说，我不认为我曾经有过那种感觉。我知道我有很多朋友和亲戚有过那些时刻，所以我感激，但我不能从我自己的现实中回答。但你认为这是否因为你从未考虑过目的地？当我说迷失时，我觉得每当我做事情时从未感到迷失，但我在想这件事会把我带到我应该去的地方时感到迷失。

I have to be honest, I don't think I ever felt that. I have many friends and relatives that I know have had those moments, and so I appreciate it, but I can't answer that from my own reality. But do you think it's because you were never thinking about destination? When I say lost, I felt like whenever I never felt lost doing the thing, but I felt lost thinking will this thing lead me to where am I supposed to be?

好的。好的。所以，是的，那正是我没有做的，这就是为什么我说我从来没有五年计划或对此感到焦虑。

Okay. Okay. So, yes, that is exactly what I didn't do, which is why I said I never had a five-year plan or had anxiety over that.

我信任并利用我的直觉说：“我觉得我需要学习这个部分。我不知道它会把我带向何方。但我本能地知道我需要知道这个。”

I trusted and used my instinct to say, "I feel I need to learn this piece. I don't know where it's going to bring me to. But I instinctively know I need to know this."

所以出于某种原因，我就是被那样引导并跟随，而不是停下来问“这会让我得到什么？”因为我并不真正关心它会把我带到哪里。我关心的是我会学到新的东西，并且在那份工作中我会很有用或有所帮助，或者他们会在我最擅长的事情上使用我。

So for some reason I just was led in that way and followed that versus stopping to say "what will this get me to?" Because I didn't really care where it got me to. What I cared about is I would learn something new and I would be useful in that job or helpful, or they would use me for what I did best.

就像我说的，有时候这看起来不合逻辑。比如，我整个职业生涯都在做创意，管理设计部门，直到那时。那时我大概四十五六岁，快五十了——我得看看我的简历——但突然，有个看过我管理设计部门的人，我忍不住和团队一起，除了设计产品之外，还会设计产品呈现给消费者的方式，不是想踩谁的脚，只是因为愿景就在那里，激情就在那里。

So like I said, it was illogical at times. For example, I was creative and ran design departments my whole life, well up until then. This was when I was in my mid-40s, late 40s—I have to look at my resume—but then all of a sudden, someone who had seen me run design departments, and I couldn't help myself with my team, but besides designing the products, I would design the idea of the way in which it should be presented to the consumer, not to step on anyone's toes, but just because the vision was there, the passion.

然后这位总裁对我说，你知道，你应该做首席营销官，主管市场。

And so this president said to me, you know, you should be a CMO, head of marketing.

我说，我？做市场主管？他们说，是啊，你忍不住的。我看这就是你做的事。我心想，哇，你知道吗？让我试试吧。为什么不呢？这并不是因为我想转行做市场，也不是因为我觉得我的直觉是，我需要试试这个。我需要理解那一部分。所以我最后成了 GAP 的首席营销官。那是个相当大的职位，但我学到了——那是在数字世界刚刚开始的时候，我当时并不知道——所以我得以在用自己的天赋交换的同时，学到很多关于数字世界的东西。但你知道，有人会说那不合逻辑。你可能会因为突然转向市场而毁掉自己的职业生涯。但它让我成了一个完整的人。所以我的下一步，结果证明，我想，如果我记得没错的话，是当一家公司的总裁吗？我记不清了。但那是正确的选择，因为我有了一种整体的视角，如果我没有答应那个请求，我永远不会有这种视角。

I said, me, a head of marketing? And they said, yeah, you can't help yourself. I see that that's what you do. And I thought to myself, wow, you know what? Let me try it. Why not? And it wasn't because I wanted to switch into marketing, and I didn't think my instinct was, I need to try this. I need to understand that piece. And so I ended up being the CMO of GAP. It was quite a big role, but I learned—it was at a time, little did I know, when the digital world was just starting—and so I was in a position to learn a lot about the digital world while in exchange for my gifts. But you know, someone would have said that was illogical. You could have messed up your career by all of a sudden veering to marketing. But it made me a whole person. So that my next move, it turned out, was, I think, if I remember correctly, was it being president of a company? I can't remember. But it was the right thing to do because I had a holistic perspective that I wouldn't have gotten if I hadn't said yes to that.

所以我想我是用心在做这些决定，几乎比用脑更多，或者说心和脑并用。我觉得你说到点子上了，关键不在于问“这会把我带向何方”，而在于感到兴奋。我越想越觉得，我身体里感受到的是兴奋。同时也有点害怕，因为就像，哇，我对那个并不全懂，所以我得去学。我想那是因为我是个好奇的人，我几乎喜欢被扔进各种情境里。我从来没有设计过两次同样的东西，就我涉及的品类而言。有玩具、时尚配饰、科技。从来没有重复过同一个品类。我想那是因为我真的很喜欢被扔进未知里，必须去学习，带着自己，全力以赴，因为我会无聊。就像如果我待在死水里，我会无聊。所以这必须是一个不断学习的过程。要做到这一点，我必须处于新的情境中。所以再说一次，但这对我是对的，对吧？我足够了解自己，知道我在哪里能茁壮成长。你可能是一个不同的人，可能会因为成为某件事的绝对世界专家而茁壮成长。我不知道。所以我只是想小心，我的——这就是为什么我说你在这里只活你该活的人生。对我有用的可能对你没用。

So I guess I make those decisions with my heart almost a little more than my head, or heart and head. And I think you hit the nail on the head in that it's really about not asking that question necessarily of where will this lead me to, but getting excited. The more I think about it, what I would feel in my body is I would get excited over that. And also a little scary because it's like, whoa, I don't know everything about that, so I'm going to have to learn. And I think it's because I'm a curious person that I almost like being thrown into situations. I've never designed the same thing twice in terms of the categories I've been over. It's been, you know, toys, fashion accessories, technology. It's never been the same category twice. And I think that's because I really like being thrown into the unknown and having to learn and take me with me and apply myself because I get bored. It's like if I stay in still water, I get bored. So it has to be this constant learning journey. And for that to be the case, I have to be in new situations. So again, but that's what's right for me, right? I know myself well enough that this is where I thrive. You may be a different person who would thrive on becoming the absolute world's expert on one thing. I don't know. So I just want to be careful that my—it's like that's why I say you're here to live only the life that you're supposed to live. What works for me may not work for you.

我希望我们还能再聊三个小时，因为我有太多问题。但我想在最后几个问题里，完全换个话题，听一些故事。Ivy，我们需要你精彩人生的故事。你在职业生涯中遇到过那么多传奇人物。现在你自己也是我们所有人都敬佩的传奇。

I wish we had another three hours for this conversation because I have so many questions. But I thought for the last rapper questions, I want to shift gears completely and hear some stories. Ivy, we need stories of your incredible life. You've met so many legendary people throughout your career. Now you're a legend yourself that we all admire.

哦，不不不。

Oh, no, no, no.

但你在创意生涯中遇到的最疯狂的故事或最疯狂的人是什么？你仍然记得的，也许是塑造了你的东西，无论是你的创造力、你的领导力，还是你简直不敢相信真的发生过的事。

But what was the wildest story or wildest person that you've met throughout your creative career that still kind of you hold in your memory of maybe something that shaped you whether your creativity, your leadership or just you can't believe that actually happened.

是啊。你知道，真的很难想到一个。我有过太多不同的冒险，从你知道，就像你提到的，和 Calvin Klein 在舞池里跳舞，到和土著部落成员在丛林里，理解我们如何来自大地，我们天生就该在大自然中，再到和——天哪，是 Gwyneth Paltrow 吗？我忘了。我在一个女性会议上。她和我都在同一个会议上发言，然后也许不是她。是个漂亮的女演员，然后接下来我就知道，我们在冰岛的蓝色泻湖里游泳。所以当我回想，有太多这样的小瞬间和高光时刻，我真的很感激自己足够爱冒险，会对感觉对的事情说“是”，也愿意睁大眼睛，你知道，随波逐流。所以我有过老师，你知道，藏传老师，我有过声音老师，我有过设计界我敬佩的人，我敬佩其作品的艺术家。你知道，我想说的另一件事是，空间会改变你的思维方式，现在我想起来了。真正重要的是环境。不仅是我说的创造力发生的条件，还有你的环境，一切，光线的质量，花瓶里的一朵花。就像那些你能做的小事，创造环境，那件珍贵的艺术品？就像我房子里的艺术品，我从来不是为了转售而买的。我买它是因为它有什么东西是我的一部分，我觉得我需要走过它，让它映照我。所以这是关于连接。所以启发我的，与其说是人，不如说是人的艺术，或者新墨西哥州天空的质量，云彩在那里漂浮的方式。所以可以是任何东西。不一定非得是其他人的名单。但我想说，你知道，要意识到你可以通过拥有那些你喜欢看的物品来启发自己。除了你爱的人，但让那些物品在身边，你知道，试试不同的音乐，你知道，试着画出你在音乐中听到的东西。但最重要的是，你知道，无畏地表达自己。我的意思是，我们在这里，当我们具身时。我们在这里体验物质世界，表达自己，帮助他人驾驭这个世界。

Yeah. You know, it's really hard to think of one. I've had so many different adventures from, you know, like you mentioned, dancing on the dance floor with Calvin Klein to being in the jungle with an indigenous tribesman and understanding how we come from the earth and it is our nature to be in nature, to swimming in the blue lagoon with—god, was it Gwyneth Paltrow? I forget. I was at a women's conference. She and I were speaking at the same conference, and then maybe it wasn't her. It was some beautiful female actress, and then the next thing I know, we're swimming in the blue lagoon in Iceland. And so when I just think, there's so many little moments and highlights, and I just am grateful that I'm adventurous enough to say yes to what feels right and also be willing to, you know, go along for the ride with my eyes wide open. So I've had teachers, you know, Tibetan teachers, I've had sound teachers, I've had people in design that I admire, artists whose work I admire. You know, I would say the other thing I want to say is space changes the way you think, now that I think of it. And what's really important is environments. Not only when I say the conditions for creativity to happen, but your environment, everything, the quality of light, the one flower in a vase. Like what are those little things you can do that create the environment, the one precious piece of art? Like the art in my house, I have never bought it because of for resale. I buy it because there's something about it that is a part of me, that I have a feeling I need to keep walking by and have it reflect. And so it's about the connection. So what's inspired me, it's not even as much people as it is people's art or the quality of the sky in New Mexico and the way the clouds float up there. So it can be anything. It's not this list necessarily of other humans. But I would say, you know, to be conscious of you can inspire yourself with just having those objects that you love to look at. Besides the people that you love, but to have those objects around, you know, try different music, you know, try drawing what you're hearing in that music. But most importantly, you know, be fearless in expressing yourself. I mean, we're here when we are embodied. We're here to experience the material world and to express ourselves and to help others navigate this world.

这是我们结束对话的美丽方式，Ivy。非常感谢你为我个人、为 Future Learn Academy 的设计领导者、为这个播客的所有听众打开了一个全新的宇宙，因为我觉得我们——我 100% 同意——我们没有足够关注这些未被证明的事情，也许我们没有花足够的时间，而实际上它们对于产生创造性工作、帮助我们的心理健康、真正帮助我们成为人而不是机器是最有价值的。我喜欢你倡导这一点，但你也活生生地证明了你可以两者兼得。你可以既有逻辑又有同理心。你可以在商业上成功，同时又有创造力。你可以既直觉又战略。

That's a beautiful way to finish our conversation, Ivy. And thank you so much for opening a completely new universe for me personally, for our design leaders at Future Learn Academy, to all listeners of this podcast, because I feel like we—I 100% agree with—we don't pay enough attention to these things that are not proven and maybe we don't spend enough time, and actually they're the most valuable to produce creative work, to help our mental health, to actually help us be humans and not machines. And I love that you champion this, but also you're living proof that you can be both. You can be logical and empathic. You can be successful in businesses and be creative. You can be intuitive and strategic.

感谢你成为我们所有人的灵感来源。

And thank you for being an inspiration to all of us.

不客气，感谢你们的邀请。还有，各位听众，你们应该去看看 Ivy 那本了不起的书《我们的大脑与艺术》。

You're welcome. Thank you for having me. And for everyone listening, you should check out Ivy's incredible book, Our Brain and Art.

《艺术中的大脑》。

Your Brain on Art.

《我们的大脑与艺术》。

Your Brain and Art.

哦，是《我们的大脑与艺术》。我们的大脑与艺术确实因为这本书而改变了，我真的很喜欢。还有，对听众有什么最后的话吗？有没有什么你推荐大家去了解的内容？

Oh, it's Your Brain and Art. And our old brain and art is definitely changed from the book. So I really enjoy that. And any other last words for anyone listening? Anyone should find you, read anything you would recommend to get curious about?

没有，我只想说保持好奇，留意那些吸引你注意力的东西。因为我知道什么吸引我的注意力，那些就是我容易一头扎进去、深入了解的东西。但重要的不是模仿我，而是足够了解自己，能让自己去接触那些能激励你的事物，保持灵感。我会说，保持灵感，确保你创作艺术，无论好坏。表达自己。而且，现在世界上有太多工作要做，比以往任何时候都更需要创造性思维，需要新的思维方式，这可能就是你现在在这里的原因。

No, I would just say stay curious and pay attention to what gets your attention, because I know what gets my attention and they're the things I tend to go down a rabbit hole and learn more about. But the important thing is not to mimic me, but to get to know yourself well enough that you can treat yourself to what will inspire you, but stay inspired. I would say that would be stay inspired and make sure you make art, whether it's good or bad. Express yourself. And yeah, there's so much work to be done in the world right now. So it needs creative minds more so than ever. It needs new ways of thinking, and that's why you're probably here right now.

是的，为了更多的艺术和创造力。感谢大家的收听和观看。如果你喜欢这次对话，请分享你的见解，这有助于我们了解你觉得有价值的内容。所以分享任何引语，任何你不同意的地方，这样我们就知道那能引发情感和思考，也能帮助我们邀请更多像 Ivy 这样出色的嘉宾，让我们都能学到新东西。感谢大家的观看，下次再见。拜拜。

Yes. To more art and creativity. And thanks everyone for listening and watching. And if you did enjoy this conversation, please share your insights. It helps us to know what you found valuable. So share any quotes, anything that you disagreed with, and then we'll know that that's something that provokes emotions and thoughts, and also helps us bring more incredible guests like Ivy so we can all learn something new. Thanks everyone for watching, and until next time. Bye bye.