从巴西到 Siri：一位产品领袖的旅程

来了，我的朋友，这真是件乐事。自从我们在希腊的泳池边坐下，听到你和 Gustav 的智慧见解后，我就一直想做这个节目。非常感谢你今天能来。

here you go my friend this is such a joy to do I've wanted to do this ever since we sat by a pool in Greece and I heard the wisdom of you and Gustav and so thank you so much for joining me today

谢谢你邀请我，Harry。关于希腊的那个泳池，我想你指的是那次 Gustav 教我们 stable diffusion（稳定扩散）的时候，而你不得不走开去给希腊酒保示范如何调制完美的莫吉托，我没记错吧？

thanks for having me Harry and about that Paul in Greece I think you meant that time when Gustav was teaching us about stable diffusion was it and you had to step away to show the Greek Barman how to make the perfect mojito did I recall that right

我没记错。你知道吗，我当时写的是，有个爸爸的想法，站在 Daniel Craig 旁边，这让 Gustav 觉得自己特别不像个男人。不过，跑向球可能是我摆脱那种感觉的办法。但我想从你开始聊，而不是 Gustav 的 Daniel Craig 身材——那会是任何节目的有趣开场。那么告诉我，你是怎么进入创业世界的？你领导过一些世界上最好的产品团队，你是怎么进入创业世界并领导这些优秀产品组织的？

I didn't you know what I wrote having a dad thought and standing next to Daniel Craig which is Gustav just feeling incredibly less of a man um but uh running to the ball was I think my solution to get away from that um but I want to start with a little bit on you and not Gustav's Daniel Craig right body that would be an interesting start to any show so tell me how did you make your way into the world of startups you've LED some of the best product talks in the world how did you come to the world of startups and come to lead some of the best product orgs

我完全在巴西出生长大。七岁时，妈妈给我们一起报了 Pascal 编程课，之后又报了 AutoCAD 3D 设计课。我妈妈是建筑师和建造者，所以我从小身边就有很多工具和有趣的材料，很早就开始动手做东西。我 19 岁时作为移民来到美国，去波士顿上大学。不知道你看没看过电影《冰上轻驰》，讲的是四个牙买加人组成雪橇队参加冬奥会，尽管他们一生中从未见过雪。他们走出机场时，圣诞老人就在那儿，没穿夹克，你死定了。我的经历也类似，来到马萨诸塞州，只是没有雪橇队。不过信不信由你，有个关于巴西雪橇队的故事，我差点就加入了，但那是另一天的故事了。

well I was I was born and raised completely in Brazil and when I was seven years old my mom enrolled us together in a in a pascal programming course and after that in an AutoCAD you know 3D design course my mom is an architect and Builder so I also grew up with lots of tools and sort of fun materials around me and got into making stuff you know pretty early on um I came to the US um as an immigrant when I was 19 years old to go to college in Boston now I don't know if you've ever watched the movie Cool Runnings which is about four Jamaicans who formed a bobsled team to compete in the Winter Olympics despite never having seen snow in their lives before is when they come out of the airport and Santa's there with like no jackets on you're dead man yeah what similar story for me coming to Massachusetts minus the the bobsled team although believe it or not there's a story about a Brazilian bobsled team which I nearly got myself into but that's for a different day

我 2000 年从 MIT 毕业，那是在互联网泡沫破裂三个月后，那大概是世界上最不适合创业的时候，因为没人愿意给你投资。我们确实创办了一家公司，叫 Lobby Seven，为移动电脑构建语音识别软件。我们的愿景是，语音会在这种新的移动 UI 范式中扮演核心角色，人们可以对着这些口袋电脑说话而不是打字，后来这些设备就成了我们现在所说的智能手机。我们没有错，但我们的愿景确实早了大约 10 年。公司资金耗尽，最后我们被一家叫 Nuance 的大型软件公司雇佣了，这其实很好，因为它给了我们跑道来构建和证明我们的愿景。最终，我们的技术成了苹果 Siri 语音助手的基础，而 Nuance 因为处理了 Siri 最初几年人们对着 iPhone 说的所有内容而赚了一大笔钱，直到苹果最终搞明白并全部自研。

I I graduated from MIT uh in the year 2000 so that was three months after the.com Bubble Burst which was just about the you know worst time in the world to start a company because nobody wanted to fund you we did start a company it was called uh Lobby seven and we were building voice recognition software for mobile computers you know our vision was that speech would play a central role in this new mobile UI Paradigm and people would be able to talk instead of type into these pocket computers which later of course became what we now know as smart bones now we weren't wrong but we were definitely about you know 10 years uh too early with that Vision um our company ran out of money and we ended up getting you know actually hired by a big software company called Nuance uh which was actually good because it actually gave us the runway to build and prove uh that Vision that we had and in the end um our Tech became the foundation for Apple's you know Siri voice assistant uh and Nuance got paid a ton of money for basically processing everything that people spoke into their iPhones for the first few years of Siri before Apple finally figured it out and built everything in-house

在 Siri 真正推出前几年，我加入了 Google，做我梦想中的产品经理工作，在那里工作了六年。那是 2008 年，第一代 iPhone 刚发布不久。当时，这有点不可思议，Google 的 CEO Eric Schmidt 坐在苹果的董事会上，这在今天看来很疯狂。这基本上就像拥有一个水晶球。Eric 知道，经过几代产品，iPhone 将成为世界上一股巨大的变革力量。所以他做了两件非常聪明的事：一是资助一个由数百名工程师组成的团队，构建所有 Google 产品的移动版本；二是组建了移动操作系统团队，这个团队源于对 Android 的收购。在 Google 的六年里，我有机会领导这两个团队的产品管理，甚至还有机会和 Steve Jobs 合作过一段时间，因为当时我们是他们的合作伙伴。

now years before Siri actually even launched I joined Google in my you know dream job as a product manager and ended up working there for six years and we're talking 2008 here um right after the first generation iPhone launched now back then and this is kind of incredible Google CEO Eric Schmidt set on Apple's board of directors which is a crazy thing to think these days and it was basically like having a crystal ball you know Eric knew that over multiple Generations you know the iPhone was going to be this massive transformational Force you know for the world so he did two really clever things one was funding a team with hundreds of Engineers to build mobile versions of All Things Google and the other was the mobile operating system team that was formed out of the Android acquisition well I had the opportunity to lead product management for both of those teams in my six years at Google and uh you know even got a chance to work uh with Steve Jobs for a little bit since um you were you know we were partners with them at the time

这里有一点我必须展开，就是和 Steve 合作，从这些互动和经历中有什么收获吗？

that just one thing I have to unpack there from working with Steve is there any takeaways from the interaction from The Experience

和 Steve 合作最好的描述方式就是完美主义。他会在夜里疯狂的时间给我们打电话，比如我们那边是凌晨很早的时候，告诉我们 UI 的某个部分有问题，可能没人注意到或发现，但 Steve 看到了，对他来说就必须改，必须立刻改。所以，完美确实是描述 Steve 的词，也是让他如此出色的原因。

I'm just faster the best way to describe you know working with stevia's perfection uh in he he would call us uh at crazy hours of the night when you know we're super early in the morning to tell us that you know there was something off with uh some piece of the UI which no one had possibly uh clawed or whatever catched uh but Steve saw it and for him it just had to be changed it had to be changed immediately yeah so Perfection uh really is the word that I would use to describe um uh Steve and and what made him so wonderful really

我是说，和他合作是难以置信的挑战，凌晨 3 点打电话，我确信。那这后来怎么引向小米的呢？

I mean yeah incredible challenge to work with is the 3am cool I'm sure um how did that then lead to xiaomi yeah

Android 是一个疯狂的超级增长故事，我认为是科技界见过的最大的增长之一。为 Andy Rubin 工作对我来说是一所大学校。当时我工作的很大一部分是管理 Nexus 手机产品组合，后来变成了我们今天熟知的 Pixel 系列。那是我对消费硬件痴迷的开始。2013 年，我接受了一位前 Google 员工的邀请，加入他在中国的小创业公司，但没人听说过它，那就是小米。这是我们的好朋友 Shaq 在幕后参与我职业转变的多次中的第一次，我相信我们会聊到这个。长话短说，小米想通过制造极其出色的智能手机，直接在线销售给消费者，没有中间商，来挑战三星和苹果。我们不在营销上花钱，硬件利润率相对较低，但用软件收入来弥补差额。那是一个非常酷的商业模式，在当时行业里完全是新的，而且非常有效。我的工作是把这种直接面向消费者的模式扩展到中国以外。那是一个产品角色，但也是我第一个 P&L 角色。我们在大约四年内扩展到约 20 个市场，在每个市场都成为第一或第二。我们最大的胜利是在印度成为第一手机品牌。如今，小米是全球第二大智能手机品牌，仅次于三星；如果算上美国市场，它是第三大。

well so you know Android was sort of this crazy hyper growth story you know the biggest I think we've ever seen in the tech world uh working for Andy Rubin was uh you know a really big school for me um and you know a big part of my job back then uh was managing the the Nexus you know phone portfolio which later became you know the pixel franchise that we know today and that's where my obsession for Consumer Hardware uh began in 2013 I accepted an offer from a former googler to join his small startup in China but nobody nobody had ever heard of that was of course xiaomi and this was the first of many times that our friend our good friend Shaq was involved behind the scenes in in my career jumps and I'm sure we got to talk about that uh long story short you know xiaomi wanted to challenge Samsung and Apple in the smartphone market by making incredibly incredibly good smartphones selling them direct to Consumers online without any Middleman we didn't spend money on marketing we made you know relative lifting margins on the hardware uh but then used software revenues to kind of make up for the difference it was a really cool business model it was completely new in the industry then and it really really worked my job was to expand sort of that recipe that directed consumer recipe outside of China um it was it was a product role but it was also my first p l role and we expanded to like 20 markets um in about four years and became you know either number one or number two in each of these markets and our biggest win uh was becoming the number one phone brand in India um you know today xiaomi is the second largest smartphone brand globally behind Samsung if you exclude the US market and if you do the US market uh it's the second it's the third largest smartphone brand

然后，然后告诉我最后一件重要的事，然后我会深入探讨。在亚洲四年后，我回到美国，接受了 Mark Zuckerberg 的邀请，去管理 Facebook 内部的 Oculus 团队。是这样吗？

and then and then tell me final one matter and then I'm gonna dig in after four years in Asia I I came back to the US and accepted um an invite from Mark Zuckerberg to run the Oculus team inside of Facebook it was it

那是一段很棒的四年时光，期间我们重启了虚拟现实，让它变得更加主流。Oculus 变成了元宇宙业务部门，差不多就是扎克决定把整个公司改名为 Meta 的时候。当然，后面的故事大家都知道了。在 Meta 的日子里，为了回到当下，当然是通过沙克介绍，我认识了一位了不起的科学家，乔纳森·罗斯伯格，他是医疗设备领域的连续创业者。2020 年疫情初期，我和乔纳森一起创办了一家公司，Detect 就是这样诞生的。

It was a great four-year run, you know, during which we rebooted virtual reality and made it much more mainstream. Oculus became the metaverse business unit, and that was sort of when Zach decided to rename the entire company to Meta. Of course, the rest is history. And during my days at Meta, to bring us back to present time, I was introduced by Shaq, of course, to an incredible scientist, this guy Jonathan Rothberg, who was a serial entrepreneur in the medical devices space. At the beginning of the pandemic in 2020, Jonathan and I started a company together, and this is how Detect was born.

你提到了沙克，显然他对我们俩都非常亲近和特别。你觉得沙克对你来说特别在哪里？你认识他很多年了。

You mentioned Shaq, obviously very close and special to both of us. What do you think is so special about Shaq to you? You've known him for many years.

沙克是一位很棒的朋友，认识超过 10 年了。而且，你知道，他有一种最不可思议的头脑，喜欢跨行业、跨地域地连接人，纯粹因为他热爱这件事。我觉得他的特别之处就在于他真心喜欢这么做。过去 10 到 12 年里，我做的每一份工作都是通过沙克的介绍得到的。

Shaq has been a wonderful friend for over 10 years. And, you know, as you know, he has the most insane mind for connecting people across industries and across the globe, just because he loves doing it. And I think that is what's so special about him: the fact that he just loves to do that. Every job that I made in the last 10, 12 years was the result of some introduction made by Shaq.

我完全同意你的看法。我们应该把沙克产品化。沙克即服务绝对是世界上最令人愉悦的产品。我完全同意你。下一个问题，我是消防员，但我会快速过一遍。你在 Google、小米、Meta 工作过，现在又在健康科技初创公司 Detect，领导风格截然不同。如果从每家公司各取一个影响你思考和做事方式的要点，会是什么？

And I agree with you completely. We should productize Shaq. Shaq as a service would be the world's most delightful product, that's for sure. I totally agree with you. Next question I have to ask is I'm a fireman, but I'll do a quick fire round on this. You've worked now at Google, Xiaomi, Meta, now health tech startup Detect, all immensely different leadership styles. If you were to take one takeaway from each that's impacted how you think and operate, what would it be?

在 Google，主要的收获是真正学到了产品管理和产品营销的所有基础。那是我的学校。在小米，主要的收获——我会说两个。第一个收获是价格就是特性，定价真的能成就或毁掉一个品牌，作为一个产品品牌。另一个收获是创造和培养忠实粉丝群体的巨大价值。那是我们成功秘诀的一部分，对我来说是巨大的学习。在 Meta 或 Oculus，我学会了成为更好的管理者，采用了一种与之前完全不同的管理风格，尤其是在中国。我真的认为 Facebook 或 Meta 在建立管理者文化方面做得非常出色，比我见过的或听说过的任何公司都好。然后在 Detect，也就是我几年前共同创立的健康科技公司，我学到了拥有厉害联合创始人的力量，以及在做重大决策和指导团队时不孤单的重要性。我有最棒的联合创始人，这对我来说是巨大的改变。

At Google, the main takeaway was really learning all of the fundamentals of product management and product marketing. That was my school. At Xiaomi, the main takeaway—I'll do two takeaways there. The first takeaway at Xiaomi was that price is the feature, and pricing can really make or break you entirely as a brand, as a product brand. And then the other takeaway was the immense value of creating and cultivating a loyal base of true fans of your brand. That was part of our secret sauce there, and it was a huge learning for me. At Meta or Oculus, I learned to be a better manager and adopted a completely different management style from what I had been using up until then, especially in China. I really do think that Facebook or Meta does an outstanding job of building manager culture, better than anything I've seen or heard of in any company. And then at Detect, which is the health technology company that I co-founded a couple of years ago, I learned the power of having kick-ass co-founders and not being alone, you know, when making big decisions especially, and guiding the team. I have the most amazing co-founders, and that's been just a huge game changer for me.

我确实想谈谈不同的管理风格。你知道，我其实和丹尼尔聊过这个，他说你真的要深入了解雨果在亚洲和 Meta 的经历。很少有人能有这样独特的经历。而且你之前跟我说话时，你特别提到文化、旅程，挣扎必须是真实的。你这是什么意思，雨果？

I do want to talk about different management styles. You know, I spoke to Daniel actually about this, and he said you really have to dig in on Hugo's time both in Asia and then obviously at Meta. It's very rare to have someone with such unique exposure. And when you spoke to me before, you said especially around culture, the journey, the struggle has to be real. What did you mean by this, Hugo?

我坚信，那些在职业生涯早期就努力拼搏、经历挣扎的人，会变得更有韧性，在之后的领导角色或自己创业时往往表现更好。仅仅努力工作是不够的。你需要把自己置于舒适区之外，才能真正学习和建立韧性。你知道，你的版本，哈里，当然是开始这个播客，我知道早期做这件事非常不舒服。你今天很自然，但并非一直如此。托尼·费德尔的版本——我 18 岁时在曼彻斯特和伦敦找工作被拒，然后我搬到旧金山待了九个月，我之前从未离开过家。那是一件大事。我非常不舒服。我以前从未去过美国。经历那种挣扎造就了今天的你。托尼上过很多次节目；他是我的重要导师。托尼的版本是年纪轻轻就在 General Magic 工作，和那些了不起的人一起，他必须自学，否则第二天就会失业。我的走出舒适区的版本是在北京生活，为一家中国公司工作了四年，承担着我从未有过的损益责任和职责水平。除此之外，还要应对中文、文化、政治和极其残酷的工作态度，那真的让我吃尽了苦头。我的观点是，要成为强大的领导者，你必须要有韧性，而这需要真实的挣扎。我认为这是我们必须教给孩子们的东西。

I fundamentally believe that people who hustle and put themselves through struggle early in their career become much more resilient and tend to do way better later in leadership roles or leading their own companies. And just working really hard isn't really enough. You need to put yourself way outside of your comfort zone to really learn and to really build resilience. You know, your version of this, Harry, of course, is starting this podcast, which I know was a really uncomfortable thing to do early on. You know, you're a natural at it today, but it wasn't always this way. Tony Fidel's version of this—when I was 18, I got rejected for jobs in Manchester and London, and I moved to San Francisco for nine months, and I'd never ever left home before. That was a big thing. I was very uncomfortable. I'd never been to the US before. It made you who you are today to go through that struggle. Tony has been on the show so many times; he's a huge mentor to me. Tony's version of this was working at General Magic at such a young age, alongside these incredible people, and he had to teach himself or he would be out of a job the next day. My version of going outside the comfort zone was living in Beijing and working for a Chinese company for four years, with a P&L and a level of responsibility that I had never had up until then. And on top of that, dealing with Chinese language, culture, politics, and an absolutely brutal work ethic that really kicked my ass. And my point really is you have to be resilient to be a strong leader, and that requires the struggle to be real. I think this is something we really have to teach our kids.

所以杰伊在我做节目研究时告诉了我中国的 996 工作文化，我之前其实没听说过。你能解释一下什么是 996 工作文化吗？

So Jay told me when I was doing the research for the show about 996 work culture in China, and I actually haven't heard of this before. So can you explain what is 996 work culture?

是的，996 是我在北京生活时大多数中国科技公司的标准工作周，某种程度上甚至今天仍然如此。这实际上写在我的中文合同里。996 意味着上午 9 点到晚上 9 点，每周六天，这意味着你周六全天都在办公室。这大致是官方时间，但对一些团队来说，实际上更糟。比如，我每周都要和小米的首席执行官开战略工作会议，至少每隔一个周六晚上，这些会议会持续大约六个小时，有时一直到深夜。而且我知道小米的硬件团队大多数周日也上半天班。所以这是一种残酷的工作态度，就像我说的。这种工作态度部分是中国公司如此有竞争力的原因，但同样真实的是，中国公司通常管理得不太好，有时真的很混乱。所以很多时间都浪费在糟糕的沟通、缺乏清晰度、缺乏目标、坏习惯上。所以这个故事有两面性。

Yeah, 996 was the standard work week in most Chinese tech companies back when I lived in Beijing, and to a certain extent even still today. It was actually written in my Chinese contract. 996 means 9 AM to 9 PM, six days a week, and that means you're in the office all day on Saturday. That was sort of more or less the official hours, but for some teams, in practice, it was actually worse. I, for instance, had weekly strategy working sessions with our CEO at Xiaomi at least every other Saturday night, and these things went on for like six hours, well into the night sometimes. And I knew that the hardware team at Xiaomi also worked half days on most Sundays. So it's a brutal work ethic, like I said. And this work ethic is partly what makes Chinese companies so competitive, but it's also true that Chinese companies are generally not as well run and sometimes are really messy. So a lot of the time on the ground is wasted by poor communication, lack of clarity, lack of goals, bad habits. So there's kind of two sides to this story.

我能问你一个问题吗？你觉得这好吗？你觉得这有效吗？

Can I ask you a question? Do you think it's good? Do you think it works?

我觉得对他们有效。这种 996 文化，这种残酷的工作态度，是中国文化的直接产物，是事物运作方式、父母如何为孩子在学校建立期望等诸如此类的产物。中国文化天生就崇尚让自己经历这些残酷的工作习惯。这对他们有效。对我们不会有效。对我们来说行不通。我认为我们甚至不应该尝试。

I think it works for them. This 996 culture, this brutal work ethic, is a direct derivative of Chinese culture, of how things are, of how parents build expectations for the kids in school and things of that nature. It's kind of innate to the Chinese culture to really idealize putting yourself through these brutal work habits. It works for them. It wouldn't work for us. It doesn't work for us. And I don't think we should even try it.

这就是我完全不公平的地方，但我发现这真的很有挑战性。我拼命工作。

This is where I'm totally unfair, but like I find it really challenging. I work my ass off.

每周七天，这就是节目成功的原因。你知道，我并不聪明，但我很努力。然后我看到其他人都在搞团建和瑜伽静修，我就想，难怪你们的增长停滞不前，你们都在搞团建。

Seven days a week, and that's why the show has been successful. You know, I'm not that bright, but I do work hard. And then I see everyone else doing off-sites and yoga retreats, and I'm like, well, no wonder your growth is flat, like you're on offsite.

从 996 过渡到初创公司，产品经理现在进办公室还期待足底按摩和康普茶，这种转变难吗？

Is it difficult making that transition from 996 to a startup where product managers now expect a foot massage as well as a kombucha when they come into the office?

对我来说，这是一个非常艰难的转变。我想我尝试过一段时间把这种文化移植到西方，但确实行不通。我记得最清楚的故事，也是我因此吃了大亏的故事，是我在周日早上为 Oculus 的领导层召开了一次战略会议，当时我觉得这很合理，因为这样你就有大块的时间。结果第二天我就接到了 Facebook 人力资源的电话。那是我第一次也是最后一次在周日召开非现场战略会议。这就是我的观点。我说完了。

It was a really tough transition for me. I think I tried for a while to transplant some of this to the West, and it really didn't work. The story that I remember most vividly, and which is how I learned this the hard way, was after I called a strategy meeting for my leadership at Oculus on a Sunday morning, which seemed like a reasonable thing to do because then you have a large block of time. And then I got a call from Facebook HR the next day. That was the first and last time I called an off-site strategy meeting on a Sunday. That's my point. I rest my case.

总之，在我开始说教之前，正如我所说，Daniel 强调了你的经历独特性。在我们进入产品话题之前，最后一个问题：在中国的那段时间和所见的文化如何影响了你的思维方式？现在你脑海中同时有中美两种环境，这对你今天构建技术有什么影响？

Anyway, before I get on a high horse, as I said, Daniel highlighted the uniqueness of your experiences. Final one before we move on to product itself: how did that time being in China and seeing the culture impact your mindset? And now having both Chinese and U.S. environments in your mind, how has it impacted how you build the tech today?

中国文化非常丰富，充满智慧和深刻含义，相比之下西方文化相对肤浅。说实话，我从中国文化中学到的一大点是，要真正不遗余力地确保人们总是感到被尊重。在中国，你有这个古老的概念叫“面子”，本质上就是一个人的社会尊严，说得夸张一点。在中国，始终要考虑给面子、得面子、保面子，不让别人丢面子，比如通过公开羞辱的方式。再说得夸张一点，这有点像社交银行账户：你存钱、取钱、投资。如果你让某人觉得他们在会议上给出了错误答案或提出了愚蠢的想法，你可能会让他们丢面子。那非常糟糕。所以在实践中，这意味着如果你需要进行困难的对话或给别人强烈的反馈，要私下进行。如果问题严重到会导致他们离开项目或团队，那么尽量给他们一个台阶下。永远不要在公开场合指责他们，因为那会损害他们的尊严。这当然是一个被放大的基本人性原则，中国文化放大了它，但它确实影响了我的领导风格，我如何待人，如何给予反馈。我不回避艰难的对话，但我更喜欢私下进行。

Chinese culture is incredibly rich in its wisdom and depth of meanings, compared to the relative superficiality of Western cultures. To be honest, a big thing I learned from Chinese culture is to really, really go out of your way to make sure people always feel respected. In China, you have this age-old concept of face, which is essentially a person's social dignity, to be a little dramatic. It's really, really important in China to always be thinking about giving face, getting face, saving face, and not letting a person lose face, for example through acts of public humiliation. Again, to be dramatic, it's kind of like a social bank account: you spend it, you save it, you invest it. And if you make someone feel like they've given a wrong answer or offered a silly idea in a meeting, you could cause them to lose face. That's really, really bad. So in practice, this means that if you need to have a difficult conversation or give someone strong feedback, do that in private. And if it's serious enough that it would cause them to leave the project or the team, then try to give them an out. And never ever call them out in public, because that degrades their dignity. That's of course an exaggerated basic human principle that Chinese culture really amplifies, but it has really influenced my leadership style, how I treat people, how I give feedback. I don't avoid hard conversations, but I prefer to have them in private.

我完全理解你。不过我有个问题要问你。Gustav 最近在节目上说了一些我仍然不同意的话，但 Gustav 比我聪明得多，所以他是对的，我显然是错的。他说“说话很廉价”，所以我们应该多说，我们应该有更多激烈的辩论。我想问你的问题是：通过允许人们保全面子，你们在小组讨论和辩论中是否会失去优势？

I totally get you. I have a question for you though. Gustam said on the show recently something which I still disagree with, but Gustav's way smarter than me, so he's right, I'm obviously wrong. But he said talk is cheap and so we should do a lot more of it, and we should have a lot more passionate debates. And I guess my question to you is: by allowing people to save face, do you not lose advantages in terms of discussion and debate as a group?

我觉得这很有趣。在公共场合帮助某人保全面子或不丢面子，即使在西方的工作环境中，我认为也是进行开放、坦诚对话的非常积极的强化工具，因为它为人们创造了一个安全的空间。所以再说一次，我认为有些话你可以在大家面前说，有些话则留到以后的一对一谈话中。但在我看来，创造那个安全空间很重要，因为我确实同意 Gustav 的观点，你必须能够与每个人进行坦诚的对话。

I think it's interesting. Helping someone save face or not lose face in a public setting, even here in the Western work environment, I think is a really positive reinforcement tool for having open, candid conversations, because it creates a safe space for people. So again, I think there are things that you say in front of everybody, and there are things that you save for a later one-on-one conversation. But just creating that safe space, in my opinion, is important, because I do agree with Gustav that you have to be able to have candid conversations with everybody.

是的，不，我完全理解，而且我看到这确实创造了一种环境安全感，让人们可以更自由地分享意见。我想转向产品话题。你提到了 Tony Fidel。我们显然都认识 Tony，了不起的人，精力充沛却很少摄入咖啡因，我不敢相信他不喝咖啡。但不管怎样，他显然说过你是消费硬件领域的元老。所以我想从他提出的一个问题开始：构建硬件产品与软件产品的主要区别是什么？让我们从那里开始。

Yeah, no, I totally get that, and I see that it does create an environmental safety where people can share opinions more freely. I want to move to product. You mentioned Tony Fidel. We obviously both know Tony, incredible man, so much energy for so little caffeine, I can't believe he doesn't drink any coffee. But anyway, he obviously said you're a consumer hardware OG. And so I want to start with a question from him, which is: what are the main differences between building hardware versus software products? Let's start there.

是的，最重要的区别，相对明显的是，构建硬件需要更早地拥有更多的信念，甚至在你构建 V1 之前。如果你在软件上错了，你可以接受反馈并快速迭代，继续前进，有时只需几天。如果你在硬件上错了，你可能会得到数百万美元的库存，却无能为力。作为硬件初创公司，你基本上不能在 V1 上失败，因为如果失败了，可能会让你丧命。

Yeah, well, the most important difference, which is relatively obvious, is that building hardware requires having a lot more conviction early on, before you even build your V1. If you're wrong in software, you take feedback and iterate quickly and move on, in a matter of days sometimes. If you're wrong in hardware, you could end up with millions of dollars in inventory that you can't do anything with. And as a hardware startup, you basically cannot fail in your V1, because if you do, it might just cost you your life.

我能问一下，你有没有在 V1 上失败过？你有没有遇到过那种情况，你会说，哦，那不行？

Can I ask, have you ever failed in your V1? Have you ever had one where you're like, oh, that didn't work?

我有几个失败的故事。基本上，如果你的 V1 失败了，你别无选择，只能推出一个轰动的 V2，它必须远远弥补 V1 的失败。所以如果你愿意，失败是可以挽救的；你仍然可以有资金去做 V2，但你必须真正打出全垒打。我想到的故事是我接管 Oculus 团队后的第一个新产品。那个产品叫 Oculus Go。它是一个 200 美元的 VR 头显，旨在成为你的日常 VR 设备，它卖得很好，但留存率绝对糟糕，这意味着它显然失败了。它基本上是一个 MVP，但除了看视频之外，它并不是特别有吸引力。为了简化技术，我们忽略了 VR 沉浸感的两个最重要的需求，即能够物理行走和在 VR 中看到你的手。现实是我们还没有准备好推出具有这些功能的产品，我们没有花时间构建它们，而是匆忙推出了一个 MVP，结果是一场灾难。如果我们是一家初创公司，我们就死了。一年后，我们推出了 Oculus Quest，那是我们的第二个产品，那个产品完美地满足了这两个用户需求，并且有一个出色的首发游戏库。它立刻成功了，留存率绝对惊人，事实上，留存率几乎是我在新产品中从未见过的。我们从 Oculus Go 中学到了吗？是的，我们确实学到了。但说实话，我们不需要推出产品就能学到我们学到的东西。推出它是我的决定，我完全错了。

I have a few stories of the ones that failed. And basically, if your V1 fails, you have no choice but to follow up with a sensational V2 that just has to more than make up for the failure of V1. So if you want, failure is salvageable; you can still have money in the bank to do a V2, but then you have to really hit it out of the park. So the story that comes to mind was my first new product after I took over the Oculus team. That product was called Oculus Go. It was a $200 VR headset that was built to be kind of your everyday VR device, and it sold really well but had absolutely atrocious retention, which means it obviously failed. And it was basically an MVP, but it wasn't particularly compelling for anything other than watching videos. To simplify the technology, we kind of ignored the two most important needs of VR immersion, which are the ability to physically walk around and to see your hands in VR. The reality is that we weren't ready to launch a product with those features, and instead of taking the time to build them, we rushed an MVP out the door, and it was a disaster. If we were a startup, we would have been dead. One year later, we launched Oculus Quest, which was our second product, and that product delivered perfectly on those two user needs and had a terrific launch library. It was an instant success, absolutely phenomenal retention, in fact retention like almost nothing I've ever seen in a new product. Did we learn from Oculus Go? Yes, we sure did. But honestly, we didn't need to launch the product to learn what we learned. It was my decision to launch it, and I was completely wrong.

说到你用 Quest 满足的消费者需求，你知道，我们之前试过，一开始你说只需要考虑两类消费者。那么当我们思考这些类别时，这两类是什么？在你的经验中，这两类中哪些例子最突出？

Speaking of the consumer needs that you filled there with Quest, you know, we've tried it before and in the beginning you said there are only two categories of consumers to think about. So when we think about those categories, what are those two categories and what examples stand out to you most prominently with these two categories in your experience?

好吧，这是我最喜欢的话题，你可能刚放出了猛兽。让我想想。当你打造一款消费级硬件产品时，你必须为 V1 做一个重要决定。你要么选择那些愿意为完整未来产品支付高价的客户，这些产品能不打折扣地完成他们期望的工作；要么你专注于价值型客户，如果价格不合适，他们根本不会考虑你的产品。我把这两种方法称为“功能之王”和“预算之王”。功能之王的产品拥有所有功能，因此更贵。预算之王的产品是在成本约束下打造的，这要求产品人员做出非常非常艰难的选择。你必须选择你要走的路。如果你落在中间，你就无法让这两类客户中的任何一类满意。你的产品就是一条发臭的死鱼，你的品牌受损，你可能会死。哈里，令人难以置信的是，至今仍有这么多公司犯下这种落入中间的错误。现在，有很多因素会影响这个决定。你知道，这是一个新产品类别还是现有类别？市场上已经有哪些产品？它们做什么？你是否有技术优势可以证明高溢价的合理性？例如，你知道，就我个人而言，你也知道，我是预算之王产品的忠实粉丝。你知道，我是“廉价先生”，我的整个职业生涯都在那里度过。你知道，预算之王的产品实际上比功能之王的产品更难打造，因为它们不能只是便宜；它们当然必须好，否则人们不会买或继续使用。然而，一旦你非常擅长做预算之王，你偶尔会发现一个有限的市场窗口，在那里你可以同时成为功能之王和价格之王。如果这种事在你的职业生涯中发生一次，你就很幸运了。如果发生了，那通常是一个巨大的头奖，你的公司可以在几年内增长 100 倍。但你的竞争对手会紧追不舍，所以趁还能享受那个窗口吧。这在我的职业生涯中确实发生过一次。那太惊人了。那是小米的一款产品，我们于 2016 年在印度首次推出，我记得，它的名字有点搞笑，叫红米 Note 3。这是一款在单一智能手机中拥有许多“第一”的产品，这就是为什么它在市场上成为功能之王。它是第一款金属机身智能手机，第一款大屏幕，第一款大电池——我说的是 5000 毫安时——这些都被认为是高端功能。然后我们还与高通谈判了市场独家权，为他们推出的一款新芯片，这款芯片风靡一时，因为它非常非常强大，而且非常省电。这款智能手机经过非常仔细和巧妙的设计。尽管它有所有这些“第一”，你知道，它非常好。我们设法用所有预算组件打造了它。它的售价刚刚超过 100 美元，它彻底席卷了印度，然后是整个东南亚。你知道，这款产品单枪匹马地将小米推上了智能手机排名的顶端，也正是它让我们在那一年首次击败了三星。你知道，它给了我们大量的街头信誉，并且真正提升了品牌。那件事只发生过一次。你知道，我们让竞争对手完全措手不及，但随后每个人都争相回应，六个月后，那个规格就成了常态，所以在那之后我们又回到了只是预算之王的状态。你知道，巨大的本垒打。

Okay, well, this is my favorite topic, and you might have just unleashed the beast. Let's see. Okay, when you're building a consumer hardware product, you have to make one important decision for V1. You either go for customers who are willing to pay a high price for a full-future product that does the job they expect without cutting corners, or you focus on value customers who won't even consider your product if the price isn't right. I call these two approaches Feature King and Budget King. Feature King products have all the features and are for that reason more expensive. Budget King products are built under a cost constraint that requires the product people to make really, really hard choices. And you need to choose where you're going to play. If you fall somewhere in the middle, you fail to make either of these customer types happy. Your product is a stinky dead fish, your brand suffers, and you probably are going to die. And Harry, it's unbelievable how many companies make this mistake to this day of falling in the middle. Now, there's a lot of factors that go into making this decision. You know, is this a new product category or an existing one? What products already exist in the market? What do they do? Do you have a technological advantage that could justify a big price premium? For example, you know, personally, and you know this, I am a big fan of Budget King products. You know, I am Mr. Cheap, and that's where I spent my entire career. You know, Budget King products are actually harder to build than Feature King products because they can't just be cheap; they of course have to be good, otherwise people won't buy them or want to keep using them. However, once you get really good at being a Budget King, you can occasionally spot a finite market window where you can be Feature King and Price King at the same time. And you'll be lucky if that happens even once in your career. And if it does, it's usually a massive jackpot, and your company can 100x in a couple of years. But your competitors are going to be on your tail, so enjoy that window while you can. This actually happened once in my career. It was astounding. It was the product at Xiaomi that we first launched in India in 2016, I believe, and it was called, kind of a funny name, the Redmi Note 3. This was a product of many, many firsts in a single smartphone, which is why it landed as a Feature King in the market. It was the first smartphone with a metallic body, the first with a large screen, the first with a large battery—I'm talking like 5,000 milliamp hours—and these were all considered premium features. And then we had also negotiated market exclusivity with Qualcomm for a new chip that they were launching, that was all the rage because it was really, really powerful but also very battery efficient. This smartphone was really carefully and cleverly engineered. Even though it had all these firsts, you know, it was very, very good. We managed to build it with all budget components. It sold for just over a hundred dollars, and it absolutely took India and then all of Southeast Asia by storm. You know, this product single-handedly propelled Xiaomi into the top of the smartphone ranks, and it's what allowed us to beat Samsung for the first time that year. You know, it gave us a ton of street cred and it really, really beefed up the brand. That only ever happened once. You know, we caught our competitors completely by surprise, but then everybody rushed to respond, and six months later that spec was the norm, so we were kind of back to just being Budget King after that. You know, massive home run.

我能问一下，你是否发现产品领导者，无论是预算之王的产品领导者还是功能之王的产品领导者，在他们的职业生涯中是否足够灵活，能够两者兼顾？你之前说过你是“廉价先生”。你能成为“功能先生”吗？还是那更难？

Can I ask, do you find with product leaders that either Budget King product leaders or Feature King product leaders are flexible enough to do both within their career? You've said before you're Mr. Cheap. Can you be Mr. Feature, or is that tougher?

我认为习惯于功能并不更难；这是一件非常非常难以维持的事情。它通常需要大量的投资，因为成为功能之王与创新和新技术密切相关。所以成为功能之王是可能的，但它真的、真的需要一个能年复一年保持最佳状态的团队。所以我不想说预算之王的产品经理能力不行。我认为他们实际上比功能之王的产品经理更有能力。功能之王的产品经理往往背后有惊人的技术团队。预算之王的产品经理真的必须仔细权衡，决定保留哪些组件，放弃哪些组件，这样整个产品最终仍然非常神奇。这变成了一种组件级别的粒度。

I think being used to a feature is not tougher; it's a really, really hard thing to sustain. It typically requires a tremendous amount of investment because being Feature King is very related to innovation and new technologies. So being Feature King is possible, but it really, really requires a team that can stay on top of their game year after year after year. So I don't want to say that Budget King PMs are not as capable. I think they are actually more capable than Feature King PMs. Feature King PMs tend to have amazing technology teams behind them. Budget King product managers really have to find the careful trade-offs when deciding what component to keep, what component to pass on, so that the whole package ends up still being very magical. It becomes kind of a component-level granularity.

古斯塔夫，我们的共同朋友，显然在 Spotify，之前说过：“细节不是细节，它们就是产品。”他总是能说出精彩的话。你怎么看这句话？

Gustav, our mutual friend, obviously at Spotify, said before, 'Details are not details, they are the product.' Ever the man for a brilliant quote. How do you think about this quote?

我当然完全同意古斯塔夫。在硬件世界里没有 MVP 这种东西。在硬件世界里，你的 V1 必须是一个令人愉悦的产品，为你选择的目标受众和它需要完成的工作。你不能半吊子。你必须确保你的产品完成它必须完成的工作，而且必须非常非常干脆地完成。如果你的 V1 失败了，你的受众可能会再给你一次机会，就像我之前说的，但你的 V2 必须非常出色。所以避免这个问题的最好方法是不要把你的 V1 做成 MVP。不要考虑 MVP，在硬件世界里不要。

I completely agree with Gustav, of course. There is no such thing as MVP in the hardware world. In the hardware world, your V1 must be a delightful product for the audiences that you choose to sell it to and the job that it needs to do. You cannot half-ass it. You have to make sure that your product does the job that your product has to do, and it has to do it very, very crisply. If your V1 fails, your audience may give you another shot, like I said earlier, but your V2 then has to be sensational. So the best way to avoid this problem is don't MVP your V1. Just don't think about MVPs, not in the hardware world.

我明白你不考虑 MVP，雨果，但这很难。比如，真的很难直接跳到完整的 V1。当你考虑直觉与数据时，你当时没有数据，所以你纯粹是凭直觉，在我看来是这样。所以尤其是当我们想到你所处的类别，你知道，创新，当你现在看到检测和健康科技，以及你现在玩的 VR，还有你在 Android 早期玩的时候，这太疯狂了。这些似乎都是全新的类别。你是直接凭直觉还是数据，当你进入一个新类别时，你怎么看待这种权衡？

I get you don't think about MVPs, Hugo, but this is tough. Like, it's really hard to just skip to full-fledged V1. And when you think about intuition versus data, you don't have data then, so you're just purely going off intuition, it would seem to me. So especially when we think about the categories that you've been in, you know, innovation, it's insane when you look at now with detect and health tech and where you're playing now, where you play with VR, well you played in the early days of Android. It seems like these were all completely new categories. Were you bluntly just going off intuition or data, and how do you think about that trade-off when entering a new category?

你必须更多地依赖直觉而不是数据。你知道，作为产品经理，你必须做好功课，你必须成为客户的代言人，并且你必须在一定程度上验证你的直觉。你知道，其中很大一部分，正如托尼在他那本我喜欢的书中所说，是关于理解他们的情感需求，这与问客户想要什么非常不同，因为……

You have to rely on intuition more than data. You know, as a product manager, you have to do your homework, you have to be the voice of the customer, and you have to validate your intuition to some degree. You know, and a big part of this, as Tony says in his book which I love, is about understanding their emotional needs, which is very different from asking customers what they want, because...

他们不知道自己想要什么，所以不会直接告诉你。可能最好的例子之一就是我现在在科技领域做的项目——一个消费健康初创公司。我们是一家家庭诊断公司，制造高精度工具，让人们在家就能检测自己或孩子是否患有各种传染病，包括新冠、流感、链球菌性咽喉炎、性传播感染等。这是一个全新的市场——一个直到疫情才出现的品类。但疫情所做的是揭示了人们在健康方面所有未得到满足的情感需求，我们只需要去挖掘这些需求。以性传播感染为例，这个话题有太多禁忌和焦虑，以至于每年有大量的人未被诊断、未接受治疗，尽管他们确实需要治疗。从长远来看，这对他们的健康可能非常有害。所以我们做的是让直觉引导我们，然后通过努力揭示和理解这些情感需求来认真验证。这确实是客户的声音在起作用——从直觉到验证——我们一次又一次地这样做，直到你充满信心，可以构建你的产品。

They don't know what they want, so they won't tell you. Probably one of the best examples is actually what I'm working on at the tech right now, which is a consumer health startup. We're an at-home diagnostics company. We make high-precision tools for people to use at home to test themselves or to test their children for all sorts of infectious diseases, including things like COVID, flu, strep throat, STIs. And it is a brand new market—a category that simply hasn't existed until the pandemic. But what COVID did was uncover all of these unmet emotional needs that people had related to their health, and we just need to go and unpack those. Take STIs, sexually transmitted infections, as an example. There's so much taboo and anxiety around this theme that a huge number of people every year go undiagnosed and untreated, even though they really need to be. And this can be really, really problematic long-term for their health. So what we're doing is allowing our intuition to guide us, and then sort of diligently validating this by trying to surface and understand these emotional needs. It's really that voice of the customer at play—intuition to validation—and we do that time and time again until you're confident and you can build your product.

我想就情感需求这一点追问一下。我认为这是大多数人在客户探索中出错的地方。你如何真正察觉客户的情感需求？你问什么？怎么问？如何揭示他们的情感需求？

I'm going to take you on that, just something on the emotional needs side. I think this is where most people go wrong with customer discovery. How do you truly detect emotional needs of customers? What do you ask? How do you ask them? How do you uncover their emotional needs?

你不会直接问问题，而是绕着话题打转，对吧？你会问：“你对此感觉如何？你对那个感觉如何？”比如，“你最后一次想到这个是什么时候？”永远不要问“你觉得做这个的产品怎么样”。只是绕着问题转，试着让他们谈论它。

You don't ask direct questions. You kind of dance around the topic, right? And you ask, 'How do you feel when this? How do you feel when that?' You know, 'When was the last time you thought about this?' Never ask about what you think of a product that does this. Just kind of dance around the question and try to get them to talk about it.

我完全理解你。这让我想到西蒙·斯涅克——重要的不是你做什么，而是你为什么做。这引出了我现在的问题：你有了情感需求，然后围绕它进行产品营销或市场推广。老实说，我觉得如今“产品营销”这个词有点虚。你怎么看待产品营销的定义，它对你来说真正意味着什么？

I totally get you. It kind of makes me think of actually Simon Sinek—it's not what you do, it's why you do it. And I think that takes me to my question now, which is that you have the emotional need and then you product-market or market your product around that. And I find product marketing a little bit of a fluffy term today, honestly. How do you think about the definition of product marketing and what it really means to you?

对我来说，产品营销可以清晰地分为两个不同的子学科，它们不同但密切相关：入站产品营销和出站产品营销。入站产品营销在产品创建之旅的起点与产品管理紧密交织。在这个阶段，你必须成为客户的声音，理解他们的情感需求以及你的产品将完成的任务。这里的所谓“交付物”就是我们经典上所称的市场需求文档——一个有点无聊的名字——如今更常被新闻稿或有些人喜欢称之为“预发布稿”所取代。出站产品营销是所有市场推广活动的基础。这里的所谓“交付物”是产品信息文档，描述“是什么”和“为什么”——产品特性、优势、谁应该购买、定价等等。基于这份核心信息文档，你可以构建你的网站、付费营销、销售资料、社交媒体、新闻稿、媒体采访、评论简报等等。这两个功能构成了产品营销，而产品营销经理（PMM）职能至关重要。没有它，产品就无法成功落地。

Product marketing, for me, is pretty neatly divided into two separate sub-disciplines which are different but very intimately related: inbound product marketing and outbound product marketing. Inbound product marketing is very interwoven with product management at the beginning of the journey of creating a product. This is the part where you have to be the voice of the customer, understand their emotional needs and the jobs that your product will do. The quote-unquote deliverable here is what we classically used to call a market requirements document—kind of a boring name—which today is more commonly replaced by that press release, or the 'pre-press release' as some people like to call it. Outbound product marketing is the foundation to all go-to-market activities. The quote-unquote deliverable here is the product messaging document that describes the what and the why—the product features, benefits, who should buy it, pricing, and so on. Based on this core messaging document, you can then build your website, paid marketing, sales collateral, social media, press releases, press interviews, review briefs, etc. These two functions are what make product marketing, and the PMM function is incredibly critical. A product cannot come to life successfully without it.

我之前听 Jay 说你非常擅长创造和打磨清晰且引人入胜的故事，你在小米时为他做到了这一点。什么造就了最好的故事，Hugo？什么让故事清晰且引人入胜？因为我觉得如今人们的产品营销做得很差，所以请帮帮我。

I heard from Jay beforehand that you are incredible when it comes to creating and crafting clear but also very compelling stories, and you did so for him where he saw it at Xiaomi. What makes for the best stories, Hugo? And what makes clear and compelling? Because I think people are pretty bad at product marketing today, so help me out on that.

这就是讲故事，因为我认为 Tony 也会说这是产品营销的灵魂。它让客户想象你的产品将在他们的实际生活中为他们做什么。你在网站上、主题演讲发布会上、广告中，甚至亚马逊产品页面上讲故事。你必须能够讲故事。在我的职业生涯中，有一些例子是我不得不为一个我未能构建的产品讲故事，这很有挑战性，因为你总是先考虑故事——你总是先写新闻稿——但我必须尝试找到一种方法，以相反的顺序来做，在没有构建产品的情况下讲故事。这是可能的；更难，但可能。你会有更多的限制。我想到的一个例子是在印度推出的红米 Note 3 智能手机，我之前提到过。我们当时推出了一款新的高通芯片，那是一款非常惊人的高通芯片，但他们在命名上犯了一个错误，因为他们把它命名为市场上已经严重失败的一款芯片的继任者。那是骁龙 615，他们推出的是骁龙 616，而 615 的名声非常糟糕。所以我对高通说：“各位，我们无法为这款产品讲故事。这款产品会被视为和骁龙 615 一样臭的臭鱼。所以我们必须改变这个局面。如果你允许我改名，那么我认为我们可以讲一个好故事。”所以 Cristiano——他是一位好朋友，当时他还没有成为高通 CEO，但他领导他们的芯片业务部门——说：“好吧，我们试试。你想要什么？”所以我们为产品起了一个新名字；我们把它叫做骁龙 650，基本上说它几乎是旗舰级芯片。我们讲了一个令人难以置信的故事，关于一款芯片让游戏玩家可以整天玩游戏而不会耗尽电池，也不会让手机发热——这是我们在情感需求挖掘过程中学到的。印度人绝对讨厌发热的手机，但除非你告诉他们，否则他们并不知道。所以我们以新名字营销这款高通芯片，围绕“巨大性能而不发热”的理念，这是一个杀手级故事。它是帮助红米 Note 3 产品发布如此成功的因素之一。而高通还没有为我在印度做的这个扭转局面的工作付给我几百万美元，但没关系——他们是好朋友。他们很可能在这次播客和公开羞辱之后会付的。

It's storytelling, because I think Tony would also say it's the soul of product marketing. It's what gets customers to imagine what your product will do for them in their actual lives. You tell a story on your website, in a keynote launch event, in an ad, and even on an Amazon product page. You need to be able to tell a story. And I've had some examples in my career when I had to tell a story about a product that I didn't get to build, which is challenging because you always think about the story first—you always write the press release first—but I had to try to figure out a way to do it in the reverse order and tell the story without having built the product. It's possible; it's harder, but it's possible. You have a lot more constraints. An example that comes to mind was the launch of the Redmi Note 3 smartphone product in India, which I mentioned earlier. We were launching with a new Qualcomm chip, and it was a really astounding Qualcomm chip, but they made a mistake in how they named it because they named it as a successor to a chip that had massively failed in the market. It was Snapdragon 615, and they were launching a Snapdragon 616, and 615 just had a terrible reputation. So I said to Qualcomm, 'Look guys, we cannot tell a story for this product. This product will be received as the same stinky dead fish as Snapdragon 615 was. So we have to somehow change this game. If you allow me to change its name, then I think we can tell a good story.' So Cristiano, who's a good friend—at the time he wasn't yet CEO of Qualcomm, but he led their chip business unit—said, 'Okay, well, let's try. What do you want?' So we came up with a new name for the product; we made it the Snapdragon 650, and basically said it's pretty much a flagship-grade chip. And we told this incredible story about a chip that allowed gamers to play all day long without using up all their battery and without causing your phone to get hot, which was something that we learned through that emotional need uncovering process that we did. People in India absolutely hated phones that got hot, except they didn't really know it until you told them. So we marketed this Qualcomm chip with a new name around this idea of huge performance without heat, and it was a killer story. It was one of the things that helped make the Redmi Note 3 product launch so successful. And Qualcomm has yet to pay me a couple million dollars for that turnaround job that I did for them in India, but it's all right—they're good friends. They very much might do after this podcast and the public shaming.

告诉我，产品营销和品牌营销有什么区别？因为在我看来……

Tell me, what's the difference between product marketing and brand marketing? Because in my...

这听起来像是品牌营销的改名。那你如何看待两者之间的模糊地带？品牌营销到底是什么？帮我理清一下。

Mind that would seem like brand marketing name change, in that way. How do you think about the blurring between the two of them? What actually is brand marketing? Help me out here.

是的，你知道，品牌营销完全是关于愿景的，对吧？它是在你的品牌周围营造一种光环、一种精神气质，这当然会与产品故事交织在一起，但它更是一个长期的旅程。你的品牌是基于你长期制造的产品而建立的。而且，品牌不是一夜之间建立或摧毁的。好吧，有时候它确实一夜之间被摧毁，但它绝对不可能一夜之间建立。所以这是一个漫长的旅程，需要时间。产品营销实际上是关于讲述故事，让人想象那个产品在他们日常生活中的样子。

Yeah, you know, brand marketing is all about sort of aspiration, right? It's creating an aura, an ethos around your brand, which of course does interweave with product stories, but it's more of a long-term journey. Your brand is built based on the products that you make over time. And you know, a brand is not made or destroyed overnight. Well, sometimes it is destroyed overnight, but it's definitely never made overnight. So it's a long journey, and it takes time. Product marketing really is about telling the story, about making someone imagine what that product could look like in their daily lives.

你几次提到新闻稿，你说要从新闻稿开始。为什么我们应该从新闻稿开始？帮我一下：我或者是产品负责人，或者是创始人。里面应该有什么？好的新闻稿和伟大的新闻稿有什么区别？给我第一条建议。

You mentioned the press release a couple of times, and you said about starting with the press release. Why should we start with the press release? And just help me out here: I'm either a product leader or a founder. What should I have in it? What makes a good versus a great one? Advise me for my first one.

嗯，你从新闻稿开始你的产品创作之旅，因为写新闻稿会迫使你尽早创建那个故事线、那个叙事，这真的能让人们想象那个产品在他们生活中的样子。而且有时候作为产品营销经理，你必须做很多功课，才能以一种连你自己都能信服的方式写出那篇新闻稿。这是一个非常棒且高效的练习，真的很有回报。好的新闻稿包含所有重要的细节：功能、好处、定价、为什么你应该买这个。但伟大的新闻稿能触动客户的情感需求，就是我们一直在谈论的那个东西。我喜欢的一种思考方式是，你可以想象把这篇伟大的新闻稿交给一位电影导演，他们能够从你的新闻稿中获取那个故事，并在他们创造性的脑海中轻松地想象出一部短片，以让你起鸡皮疙瘩的方式传达产品及其情感益处。那就是一篇伟大的新闻稿。

Well, you start your product creation journey with a press release because writing the press release will force you to create that storyline, that narrative early on, that can really cause somebody to imagine what that product would look like in their lives. And sometimes as the product marketing manager, you're going to have to do a lot of homework to be able to write that press release in a way that can be convincing even to yourself. It's a terrific and very productive exercise to go through; it really pays off. A good press release has all the important details: the features, the benefits, the pricing, why should you buy this. But a great press release speaks to your customers' emotional needs, that thing we've been talking about. One way that I like to think about it is you could imagine ending this press release, the great press release, to a film director, and they would be able to take that story that they're getting from your press release and in their creative minds easily visualize a short film that would convey the product and its emotional benefits in a way that gives you goosebumps. That's a great press release.

我能问你一个非常难的问题吗？你如何为横向产品做产品营销或讲故事？我的意思是那些可以被很多不同人使用的产品，比如小米，有祖母要用它给亲戚打电话，有孩子要用它玩游戏。你如何有效地向如此广泛的使用场景和客户群体进行营销？

Can I ask you a really hard question? How do you product market or tell stories for horizontal products? What I mean by that is products that can be used by so many different people, like with Xiaomi, there were grandmothers who were going to use it to phone relatives, and there were children who were going to use it to play games. How do you effectively market to such broad use cases and customer segments?

一开始，即使你可能对自己的产品有广泛的适用性有信心，你也需要选择谁将成为你的产品大使——那些最有可能喜欢你的产品、向朋友推荐它、并贯穿产品生命周期的客户。所以你真的必须专注；你必须选择你的受众。通常，因为如果受众中有重度用户，有真正关心的人，那些人会希望认为你真的专注于他们。所以我会说选择你的首批大使——那些可能成为你最大拥护者的人——并首先为他们量身定制一个故事。然后当然，当你进行媒体推广、定向付费营销等等时，你可以调整故事，但一开始要尽量聚焦。随着时间的推移，当然，一旦你有了规模，你就可以稍微稀释你的信息。但因为我很喜欢那种从 1 到 10 的阶段，当产品还没有大规模起飞时，我非常喜欢利用你的拥护者。

In the beginning, even though you might have confidence that your product has wide applicability, you need to choose who your product ambassadors are going to be—those customers most likely to love your product, to talk about it to their friends, and to carry it through that product life cycle. So you really have to focus; you have to choose your audience. Oftentimes, because if there are power users in the audience, if there are people who really care, those people are going to want to think that you're really focused on them. So I would say choose your first ambassadors—those people who are likely to become your biggest champions—and tell a story that's tailored to them first and foremost. Then of course, when you do your press outreach, when you do your targeted paid marketing, and so on and so forth, then you can tailor the story, but try to focus it to begin with. Over time, of course, once a year, you can then afford to dilute your message a little bit more. But because I really like that kind of one-to-ten space, when the product still hasn't massively taken off, I'm a huge fan of using your champions.

我完全一样。我认为它在你的信息传递方面作用巨大，但关键在于从根本上进入那个初始客户细分市场的产品市场契合度。而且我真的很感兴趣——顺便说一句，我和 Jay 聊得很好——但我真正想问的一个问题是：当我们特别考虑硬件时，找到硬件产品的产品市场契合度最大的挑战是什么？

I'm totally the same. I think it does so much in terms of your messaging, but it's all about fundamentally getting into that product-market fit within that initial customer segment. And I was really interested—I had such a good chat with Jay about this, by the way—but one question that I really wanted to ask was: when we think about hardware specifically, what are the single biggest challenges of finding product-market fit with hardware products?

硬件世界的产品市场契合度，对我来说，意味着在某人生活中赢得那个物理位置，日复一日，周复一周，无论是在他们的桌子上、厨房台面上、背包里，还是其他任何地方。我喜欢这样想：你迫使某人为一个他们不必每天携带的产品付了钱。然后如果他们每天、每周都使用它，你几乎可以计算每次使用的成本。你是否成功给某人一个每次使用只需 10 美分的产品？如果是这样，那太棒了，这绝对是产品市场契合度，因为这意味着他们经常使用它。然而，如果他们不经常使用它，你基本上是在向某人销售一个每次使用可能花费 10 美元的产品。那是一个糟糕的交易，我认为这不会带来产品市场契合度。实体产品具有挑战性，因为它们必须每天被人选择，因为他们携带它；它占据空间。相比之下，一个可能在他们第 10 个屏幕上的应用——他们永远不会看到它，他们不会想到它，它不会每天打扰他们。实体产品要难得多。

Product-market fit in the hardware world, to me, means earning that physical place in someone's life, day after day, week after week, whether it's on their desk, kitchen counter, in their backpack, or wherever it might be. And I like to think about this as: you've forced someone to pay money for a product that they didn't have to carry with them every day. And then if they use it every day, every week, you can almost calculate a cost per use. Did you manage to give somebody a product that costs them 10 cents every time they use it? If so, that's fantastic, and that absolutely is product-market fit because it means they're using it pretty often. If, however, they don't use it very often, you're essentially selling a product to someone that maybe costs $10 every time they use it. It's a terrible deal, and I don't think that leads you to product-market fit. Physical products are challenging because they have to be chosen by the person every day because they're carrying it; it's occupying space. As opposed to an app that may be on their 10th screen—they never get to see it, they don't think about it, it's not really bothering them every day. Physical products are way harder.

你知道你说这个时我想到了什么吗？我想到了 Nespresso 咖啡机。Nespresso 咖啡机可能是每杯咖啡成本最低的。如果你想想我每天喝五杯，我已经用了三年，那每杯咖啡的价格简直不可思议。投资回报率惊人，对吧？你可以对每件事都这样想——你可以对衣服这样想，你可以对鞋子这样想。所有这些都必须赢得它们的使用位置。我喜欢像你的小米这样的业务，你有净产品或基础产品，使得净中性，然后你在上面叠加订阅收入或软件收入，或者像浓缩咖啡的情况，咖啡胶囊贵得离谱。多么出色的业务。我喜欢当你有这类业务的时候。

Do you know what I think of when you say that? I think of Nespresso machines. Nespresso machines are probably the best cost per coffee. If you think I have like five per day and I have mine for three years, that is the most insane price per coffee. Incredible ROI, right? And you can think about that for everything—you can think about that for clothes, you can think about that for shoes. And all of these things have to earn their place for use. I love businesses like your Xiaomi where you have like the net product or the base product which makes like net neutral, and then you layer on top your subscription revenue or software revenue, or in espresso's case, the cartridges are insanely expensive. What a brilliant business. I love it when you have those sorts of businesses.

这有点像是达到产品市场契合度；你需要一个伟大的团队才能达到。我在节目开始前和 Brax 的 Pedro 聊过，他说你在帮助 Brax 组建现在的团队方面起了关键作用。我必须和你谈谈招聘流程。那么 Hugo，直说吧，你怎么招人？那是什么？

It's kind of getting to that product-market fit; you need a great team to get there. I spoke to Pedro at Brax before the show, and he said that you were instrumental in terms of helping Brax get the team they have in place now. And I have to talk to you about the hiring process. So Hugo, bluntly, how do you hire someone? What's that?

面试流程，你能帮我讲讲你是怎么做的吗？我是佩德罗·恩里克和 Brax 团队的超级粉丝，我也等不及你请他们上节目了。

Interview process can you help me and walk me through how you do it? I'm a huge fan of you know Pedro Enrique and the Brax team and I can't wait for you to have them on the show as well.

你知道，说到面试和招人，我非常喜欢多元化的面试小组，每个人都分配一个特定的角色。这是如今科技行业面试的经典方式。我认为在组建面试小组时，确保既有现场解决问题的面试，也有深入测试文化契合度的面试，这一点非常重要。这适用于任何职级的所有职位。解决问题的面试不仅仅针对技术或技能型岗位，而是适用于所有岗位。我一直依赖小组面试，每次面试最多一小时，等等。

You know, when talking about interviews and hiring people, I'm a really big fan of diverse interview panels where everyone is assigned a specific hat. It's kind of the classic way that interviews are done in tech these days. I think it's really important when you're putting a panel together to make sure that you have live problem-solving interviews as well as interviews that test for culture flags really deeply. And this applies for every position in any job ladder. Problem-solving interviews are not just for technical or crafty roles, it's for everything. And I've always relied on panel interviews where each interview is a maximum of an hour, and so on.

但在过去，大概八年左右，随着我不得不招聘更多资深人才，我开始采取一种相当不同的方法。我确实继续依赖面试小组来获取对候选人的多元化反馈，但我也亲自投入大量时间去了解这个人。我一直在应用我即将描述的方法来面试我自己的团队，但我也为一些我乐于帮助的初创公司这样做，比如 Brex。这是一个两步面试。

But in the last, I don't know, eight years or so, as I've had to hire a lot more senior folks, I've started to take a pretty different approach. I do continue to rely on interview panels for getting diverse feedback on candidates, but I also invest a considerable amount of time myself in getting to know the person. And I've been applying this method which I'm about to describe for interviews in my own teams, but I also do this for a number of startups like Brex that I love helping out. And it's a two-step interview.

它始于一场残酷的三个半小时——别问我为什么是三个半小时，在我看来它恰好是最完美的时长——一场没有用餐休息的三个半小时面试。当然，可以去洗手间、喝水等等，但没有正餐。这是一场三个半小时的盘问式会谈，一场非常棒的组合式盘问，你让对方谈论他们过往职业生涯中所做事情的细节，或者他们必须解决的问题，或者他们必须从中恢复的失败，这些细节通常是他们从未被要求谈论过的。这样你就去掉了人们反复练习面试时往往会摆出的那层光鲜外表，因为它真正迫使他们以极高的细节度去讲述。那时你才能得到真实的故事，对吧？那时你才能看到他们真正的样子，他们有多优秀，他们不擅长什么，等等。

It starts with a brutal three and a half hour—don't ask me why three and a half, it just kind of worked out to be the perfect number in my opinion—a three and a half hour interview without a food break. You know, bathroom break, water, etc., of course, but you don't have a meal. It's a three and a half hour sort of grilling session, a very nice combined grilling session, where you get the person to talk about a level of detail of what they've done in their careers before, or problems that they've had to solve, or failures that they had to recover from, that they have typically never ever had to talk about. So you kind of remove that layer of polish that people tend to put up when they've practiced doing interviews time and time again, because it really forces them to talk about at a great level of detail. And that's when you get to the real story, right? That's when you get to who they really are, how good they are, what they're not so good at, and so on and so forth.

你是怎么做到的？是像“五个为什么”那样吗？你为什么那样做，然后为什么……你如何真正地挖掘到他们从未触及的深度？

How do you do that? Is that like the five whys? Why did you do that and then why did you... how do you literally dig deeper to an extent where they've never gone before?

绝对是“五个为什么”。“五个为什么”是达到深度、触及现实、了解一个人真实面貌和思维方式的秘诀。你必须无限深入。剥开一层，再剥开下一层，再剥开下一层。你必须远远超越他们在面试和常见情境中已经思考过的范围。所以“五个为什么”绝对是我喜欢的框架。

It is absolutely the five whys. The five whys are the secret to getting to the depth, to the reality, to who someone really is and how they think. You have to just go infinitely deep. Pull out a layer, pull out the next layer, pull out the next layer. You have to go far beyond what they've sort of thought through in interviews and common situations. So the five whys is absolutely the framework that I love.

抱歉，你觉得人们……抱歉，这真的不公平。你觉得人们愿意敞开心扉吗？我发现有时候当我尝试时，我会遇到某种障碍、抵触，我无法到达那里，无法进入下一层。是的，你发现这一点了吗？当这种情况发生时，你会怎么做？

Sorry, do you find that people... sorry, it's really unfair. Do you find people are willing to open up? I find sometimes when I try it, I kind of get this barrier, resistance, and I'm not getting there, and I'm not getting into the next layer. Yeah, do you find that? And what do you do when that happens?

如果你花足够的时间与这个人相处，并且花一点时间谈论自己，努力建立那种关系，你最终会找到一个切入点。老实说，如果他们在三个半小时的面试中都不敞开心扉，那我真不知道他们是真人还是更像机器人。我从来没有遇到过在三个半小时的面试中无法完全剖析一个人的情况。这非常耗时，占用你半天的时间，但在我看来，这是触及核心的绝对最佳方式。

If you spend enough time with the person and you take a little bit of time to talk about yourself and try to build that relationship, you will eventually find an entry point. And honestly, if they don't open up in that three and a half hour interview, then I don't know if they're like real humans or more like robots. It's never ever happened to me that I couldn't fully dress someone down in the three and a half hour interview. It's extremely time-consuming, it takes up half of your day, but it is in my opinion the absolute best way to get to the core of it.

然后，在那三个半小时的面试之后——我由衷地感谢对方花时间等等——我会去思考两天，然后进行一个半小时的后续面试，我会回顾笔记，仔细思考，找出连接完整故事的那些缺失的环节。然后我们通常进行大约一个半小时的后续。在那之后，我通常会有非常高的信心做出决定，无论是对于我想招聘的人，还是对于一位初创公司的 CEO，一位朋友创始人，他正在决定是否要雇用某人。

Then what I do after that three and a half hour interview—I thank the person profusely for spending their time and so on—I go think for two days, and then I do a follow-up one and a half hour where I go back to my notes, I think through carefully, and I figure out the kind of the missing dots that connect to a full story. And then we do usually about one hour and a half as a follow-up. And then at the end of that, I usually have a really high confidence decision, either for someone that I'm trying to hire or for a startup CEO, a founder who's a friend who's trying to decide if they want to hire somebody.

当然，你只在流程接近尾声时才进行这种马拉松式面试，一旦小组面试已经给出了他们的认可。我能问一下，最常见的缺失环节是什么？是在某个方面……是的，它们最常见的是什么？

Of course, you only do this marathon interview towards the end of the process, once the panel interview has given you their thumbs up. Can I ask what are the missing dots most often? Is it somewhere... yeah, what are they most often?

很多都与领导力价值观有关，对吧？以及你如何建立团队，如何帮助人们从失败中恢复。我认为很多都与文化有关，以及当事情变得艰难时，某人在工作中的真实表现。这几乎就像一个模拟器，对吧？它让一个人进入一种状态，你可以观察他们在工作中的表现，而无需真正进行工作，因为你们在如此深的细节层面上交谈。

A lot of it has to do with leadership values, right? And how you build teams and how you help people recover from failures. I think a lot of it has to do with culture and how someone really is at work when things get tough. It's sort of almost like a simulator, right? It's getting somebody into a position where you can watch them at work without really doing it, because you're talking at such a deep level of detail.

我完全理解你。我能问一下，当你误判了某人或搞错了，这些错误是否有共同点？

I totally get you. Can I ask, when you've misread someone or got it wrong, are there commonalities in what's gone wrong?

首先，我认为我总是过度看重产品极客特质。这就是为什么我喜欢像古斯塔夫这样的人，我们之前谈到过，他绝对是一个产品极客。你可以和他谈论世界上任何产品类别，聊上好几个小时。我倾向于真正理解和喜欢这样的人。所以当我面试他们时，我必须真正审视自己，不要被产品极客过度吸引，因为他们可能实际上并不是我在寻找的伟大领导者，一个能够建立团队并成为鼓舞人心的人，让所有人都追随。即使他们可能是一个了不起的产品人才，你还需要关注所有其他维度。这很难。我必须不断审视自己，有时你确实会落入那个陷阱。

First, I think I've always over-indexed on product nerdiness. It's why I love people like Gustav, who we talked about earlier, who's an absolute product nerd. You can talk to him about any product category in the world for hours and hours and hours. And I tend to really relate and love people like that. So I have to really check myself to not become sort of overly seduced by product nerds when I'm interviewing them, because they may actually not be the great leader that I'm looking for, who's going to build a team and be an inspiring person that everybody else follows. Even though maybe they are an incredible product person, there's all these other dimensions that you have to care about. And it's tough. I have to keep checking myself on this, and sometimes you do fall into that trap.

前几天我请了我们的温度节目的布莱恩·加斯特纳上节目，他说他做出优秀招聘的共同点是，他们能回答“告诉我你第一次赚钱的经历”这个问题。这显示了干劲，显示了坚韧。我当时在卖糖果，我在翻新汽车，我在做各种事情。那么，在你成功的招聘经验中，就他们的背景、面试过程以及他们的共同点而言，有哪些共性？

I had Brian Gastner from our temperature on the show the other day, and he said the commonality of great hires that he's made is they can answer the question 'tell me about the first time you made money.' It shows hustle, it shows grit. I was selling sweets, I was redoing cars, I was doing whatever. And then commonalities in your experience of hires that have worked in terms of their backgrounds, the interview process, and their commonalities there?

是的，我认为，首先，对我来说，领导者，正如我之前所说，必须经历过你……

Yes, I think, first of all, to me, leaders, as I said earlier, have to have gone through you...

我知道他们在职业生涯中有过巨大的挣扎，他们必须挺过非常艰难的时刻，而且他们远远超出了自己的舒适区。我总是寻找这样的故事。那些从未走出舒适区的人，无法像那些有战斗伤痕的人一样应对糟糕的时期、危机和战斗时刻。所以我确实在寻找这些。我很少会雇佣那些没有经历过职业生涯重大挣扎、并且能讲述自己故事的人。我认为个人生活的挣扎通常也很好，比如它们能培养你在领导者身上寻找的那种韧性。在我认识的和雇佣的人中，有很多案例中这一点发挥了相当大的作用，因为我能看出那个人因此变得极其坚韧。我只会用那些知道如何表现、如何行动、在事情变得非常艰难时如何保持冷静的人来组建团队。

I know big struggles in their career, they have to survive times when it got really tough, and they were way out of their comfort zone. I always look for stories like that. People who never got out of their comfort zone can't handle bad times, crisis, battle moments, as well as those who have those battle scars. So I really do look for that. I rarely will hire someone who hasn't gone through something that was a big struggle in their career and can tell their story. I think personal life struggles are often good too, like they can build that resilience that you look for in a leader. There are a lot of cases amongst people that I know and that I've hired where that played a pretty big role, because I could tell the person became incredibly resilient as a result of that. I would only build teams with people that know how to behave, how to act, how to keep their calm when things get really tough.

我完全同意，很多实质内容在于个人层面。前几天我接受采访，有人问我：“你有没有过个人挣扎？”我告诉他们我的包袱比 Remoa 还多，他们认为这相对无伤大雅，我也这么觉得。但我想问最后一个问题，因为 Pedro 提到了招聘流程，也提到了你组建产品团队的惊人能力。我真的想问：是什么非常规的行动或行为造就了最优秀中的最优秀？在你看来，产品组织什么时候开始出问题？

I totally agree in terms of a lot of the substance lying in the personal. I was interviewed the other day and someone said, 'Have you ever had personal struggles?' and I told them I have more baggage than Remoa, and they thought it was relatively unstaining, and so did I actually. But I want a final question because Pedro mentioned the hiring process but also your ability to build insanely your product orgs. I wanted to really just ask: what unconventional actions or behaviors make the best of the best, and when do the product orgs begin to break in your mind?

我认为产品组织开始出问题，是在产品经理的职责开始演变成更像总经理（GM）的时候。当公司成长，产品团队被迫随着增长而扩张，产品经理需要填补很多 CEO 和高管团队无法再填补的空白，因为公司里事情太多了。于是产品经理就成了那种不仅要把设计和工程（可能还有部分制造）缝合起来的人，他们实际上还得深入供应链，或者必须与销售或客户体验团队建立更紧密的联系。他们必须对产品有这种更全面的 360 度视角，不仅在构建之前和构建、发布期间，还要了解它在市场上的表现、运行情况，这样你才能调整它、改进它，不仅是在持续运营的基础上（如果你在构建服务），而且在构建实体产品时，每个新版本发布都是离散的。所以这是一种突然的成熟压力，很多产品经理无法应对。他们想待在自己的舒适区，只与设计和工程合作，而不像他们需要的那样关心业务的其他部分，否则他们无法成为这些迷你总经理。这是一个巨大的挑战，也是你在招聘时必须考虑的事情，因为也许两年后，如果你预期在那段时间内实现那种规模，你可能需要的人与你现在招聘的人截然不同。

I think product orgs begin to break when the product manager job starts to morph into more of a general manager, a GM job. When companies grow and product teams are forced to scale with that growth, product managers need to fill in a lot of gaps that the CEO and the senior team can no longer fill because there's so much going on in the company. So the product managers then become the people who have kind of stitched together not just design and engineering, maybe in some part of manufacturing, but they actually have to go deeper into the supply chain, or they have to be much more well connected to sales or customer experience teams. They have to have this kind of much bigger 360 view of the product, not just before it's built and while it's being built and launched, but also how it's doing in the market, how it's performing, so you can tweak it, you can improve it, not only on an ongoing basis if you're building a service, but as every new version comes out when you're building physical products, they have discrete launches. So it's this sudden push for maturity that a lot of product managers fail to have. They want to stay in their box, working with design and engineering, and not caring as much about the rest of the business as they need to, or otherwise they can't become these mini GMs. That's a huge challenge, and it's something that you have to think about when you're hiring people, because maybe in two years you might need someone pretty different from the person that you're hiring right now if you're expecting that scale to come in that time frame.

我完全理解你。很难对齐时间框架。我可以和你聊一整天，说实话，我们在泳池边就是这么干的。但我想进入快问快答环节。我说一个简短的陈述，你给我即时的想法。听起来可以吗？

I totally get you. It's difficult to align the time frames. I could talk to you all day, which is kind of what we did by the pool with good stuff, to be honest. But I want to move into a quick fire round. I say a short statement and you give me your immediate thoughts. Does that sound okay?

听起来很棒。

That sounds great.

好的。那么你什么时候倾听用户，什么时候忽略他们？

Okay. So when do you listen to users and when do you ignore them?

倾听他们的行为，忽略他们的大部分观点。

Listen to their behaviors, ignore most of their opinions.

对。高效。继续快问快答。作为首次创业者，你最担心什么？

Right. Efficient. Quick fire on my word. What element of being a first-time founder are you most nervous about?

银行里有足够的钱来实现产品市场契合，然后构建 V2。

Having enough money in the bank to get to product-market fit and then build a V2.

产品更像是艺术还是科学，比例是多少？

Is product more art or science, and what's the ratio?

我会说在一个新品类中，艺术与科学的比例是 60/40。在稳定状态下，艺术与科学的比例更接近 40/60。Gustav 说这是 100% 的科学，每个人都是可替代的，而且他实际上并不怎么好。我说：“Gustav，你是 OG。如果你说这是 100% 的科学，我可以替换你，而且会很好，产品也会没问题。”我不能那样做，这就是为什么你还在这里。他说：“不，我其实没那么好。”太精彩了。这家伙是个了不起的艺术家，他只是自己不知道。

I would say in a new category it's 60/40 art to science. In steady state it's more 40/60 art to science. Gustav said it is a hundred percent science and that everyone is replaceable, and he's actually not very good. I was like, 'Gustav, you're an OG. If you say it's 100% science, I could replace you and it would be great, and the product would be fine.' I can't do that, that's why you're still here. He's like, 'No, I'm not really even that good.' It was brilliant. This stuff is an amazing artist, he just doesn't know it.

哦，我知道。我非常爱他。你最尊敬和钦佩哪位产品领导者，为什么？

Oh, I know. I have so much love for him. Which product leader do you most respect and admire, and why?

史蒂夫·乔布斯，一直是。而且我会说托尼·法德尔在过去很多年里是我的重要导师。我总是回到理解需要从人们那里发掘这些情感需求，他们永远不会告诉你，所以你必须找到一种方法进入。

Steve Jobs, always. And I would say Tony Fadell is a big mentor over the last many years. I always come back to understanding the need to uncover these sort of emotional requirements from people, which they'll never tell you about, so you have to find a way in.

你对构建消费产品的看法随着时间的推移发生了怎样的变化？

How has your view of building a consumer product changed over time?

我会说越来越依赖直觉，你知道，随着我年纪增长。

I would say using intuition more and more, you know, as I became older.

你最想改变产品世界的什么，Hugo？

What would you most like to change about the world of product, Hugo?

我希望创造一种新型工程师：全栈硬件工程师。他们不存在。就像在软件世界，你总是需要有一个由三四种工程师组成的团队。我希望世界上有更多的全栈硬件工程师。他们确实存在，但很难找到，主要是因为大学不培养他们。

I would love to create a new type of engineer: full-stack hardware engineers. They don't exist. Like you have in the software world, you always have to have a team with three or four types of engineers. I wish there were more full-stack hardware engineers in the world. They exist, but they're hard to find, mostly because universities don't train them.

你最引以为豪的产品发布是什么？

What product release of yours are you most proud of?

通常是我最近一次的产品发布，所以对我来说那是 2021 年 12 月 Detect 的发布。但我会说我一直以来最喜欢的产品发布是 2016 年在印度发布的小米红米 Note 3。

It's usually my last product release, so for me that was the unveiling of Detect back in December of '21. But I would say my all-time favorite product release was the Xiaomi Redmi Note 3 in India in 2016.

是不是立刻就明显看出那是一个巨大的成功？

Was it just instantly apparent that that was an immense success?

是的，我在发布当天的舞台上就知道了。是的，那是一种非常特别的感觉。

Yeah, I knew it on the stage on the day of the launch. Yeah, that's a pretty special feeling.

最后，除了你自己和 Detect 之外，最近哪家公司的产品策略给你留下了最深刻的印象？

Finally, what recent company's product strategy, outside of your own and Detect, have you been most impressed by?

我对 Nothing 印象深刻，这是一个新的消费电子品牌。我实际上在这次采访中戴着 Nothing 耳机，我非常喜欢他们为新智能手机创造的设计语言，它刚刚推出。我相当有偏见，因为我是 Carl 的朋友，也是早期投资者，但我非常喜欢他们正在做的事情。

I've been super impressed with Nothing, which is a new consumer electronics brand. I'm actually wearing the Nothing earbuds in this interview, and I absolutely love the design language that they created for their new smartphone, which just came out. I'm quite biased since I'm a friend of Carl's and also a brown investor, but I'm a huge fan of what they're doing.

我不是 Carl 的朋友。我的意思是，我非常欣赏他，但我不会说我们是朋友，而且我喜欢这个产品，所以我是没有偏见的。但他们确实很棒，所以我完全同意你的看法。我认为这是必须的。显然。但非常感谢你今天加入我，我的朋友。我非常享受这次对话。

I'm not a friend of Carl's. I mean, I think the world of him, but I wouldn't say we're friends, and I love the product, so I'm an unbiased one. But they are fantastic, so I'm totally with you there. I think it's a must. Clearly. But thank you so much for joining me today, my friend. I so enjoyed this.

谢谢你，Harry。这太棒了。

Thank you, Harry. It's been amazing.