付费增长秘籍：Hector Serrano 谈如何用 UGC 规模化 WhisperFlow

Hector，非常感谢你来到这里。欢迎来到播客。

Hector, thank you so much for being here. And welcome to the podcast.

谢谢。谢谢。我很兴奋能来。

Thank you. Thank you. I'm excited to be on.

我更兴奋你能来。我想通过这次对话，创建一个非常战术性的指南，介绍目前增长 B2B SaaS 产品行之有效的方法。过去几年，你在增长 WhisperFlow 方面做得非常出色。我看到一个数据，WhisperFlow 的收入在过去一年增长了 30 倍，这太离谱了。你们最近在一个竞争激烈的市场中融资约 20 亿美元。显然你们找到了方法。你已经开始在 X 上分享一些你正在部署的策略。所以我们将深入探讨你看到有效的那些东西。首先，请给我们介绍一下你在 WhisperFlow 负责什么。你的工作是什么，你主要做什么？

I'm even more excited to have you here. What I want to try to do with this conversation is create a very tactical guide to what is working in growing a B2B SaaS product right now. You have been doing this insanely incredible job growing WhisperFlow over the past couple years. I saw this stat that revenue at WhisperFlow grew 30x in the past year, which is absurd. You guys recently raised at something like $2 billion in a very competitive market. Clearly you figured something out. You've started to share some of the strategies that you've been deploying on X. And so we're going to be going deeper into the stuff that you've seen work. First of all, give us kind of a sense of what it is you're responsible for at WhisperFlow. It's kind of your job there and what do you work on?

首先，我想非常感谢团队的其他成员。我最终接触的只是业务中很小的一部分。主要是整体内容。我自己就是一个内容创作者，这就是我最初加入 Whisper 的方式，这个角色显然演变了很多，现在我在内容方面负责我们的付费 UGC 项目。我不负责媒体购买方面。除此之外，还管理我们创始人的自然渠道，比如 YouTube 和 Instagram。

First of all, I just want to give a lot of credit to the other members of the team. Like what I touch at the end of the day is a very small part of the business. And that's mainly content as a whole. I'm a content creator myself and that's how I originally came into Whisper and that role obviously evolved a lot and now I'm kind of in charge of our paid UGC program on the actual content side. I'm not on the media buying side of things. And then on top of that also managing our organic channels for our founder like YouTube and Instagram.

好的，太棒了。我注意到你的一点，也是我认为现在非常罕见的一点，就是你非常擅长突破噪音。无论是你创作的内容，比如你最近的推文在 Twitter 上疯传。大家都在我的信息流里分享。显然你自己找到了方法。还有你做的广告工作，你做的 UGC 工作，也非常有效。所以我们可以从你和你发现的东西中学到很多。所以先宏观地谈谈你一直在花时间的增长杠杆。最近在增长 WhisperFlow 方面哪些有效，并且可以适用于其他 B2B SaaS 产品。

Okay, awesome. Something that I've noticed about you and something that I think is really rare these days is you're very good at breaking through the noise. Both in the content you create, like your tweets recently have just gone crazy viral on Twitter. Everyone's sharing it all over my feeds. So clearly you figured out how to do that yourself. Also with the ad work that you do, the UGC work that you do, also very effective. So there's a lot that we can all learn from you and what you've figured out. So just kind of zooming out first, talk about the growth levers that you have been spending time on. What has been working recently in growing WhisperFlow that can work for other B2B SaaS products.

我认为第一个，也许说起来有点老套，但我认为最重要的是 Whisper 之所以以这样的速度增长，是因为产品。从一开始就是产品驱动增长。我在产品前期阶段加入，我记得早期我们有几千用户，然后不知怎么就开始加速，大约 6 个月后，我记得 Tanay 说：“哇，我们真的找到了 PMF。”就像他发现了我们挖到了金矿。从那时起，添加所有其他渠道，无论是自然流量还是付费，一切都只是火上浇油。我们通过反复试验、做各种不同的事情、我测试一堆渠道、其他人测试一堆渠道，发现了很多成功。比如我们现在主要依赖的一个是付费广告，我们将其与大量 UGC 内容结合，我们在付费广告中有很多支柱，比如 UGC 视频、静态图片、网红、内部视频、创始人故事讲述。但总的来说，付费广告，无论是通过 Meta、LinkedIn、YouTube 等，已经成为 Whisper 的主要支柱之一，也是我在内容方面领导的事情之一。

I think the first one and it's maybe a bit corny to say, but I think most importantly Whisper has grown at the rate it has because of the product. It's everything I've been product led growth since the beginning. I joined at the pre-product stage and I remember we had a few thousand users early on and just I don't know where it just started catching steam and like 6 months in I remember Tanay said he was like, "Wow, we really found PMS." Like he found like we struck gold. And then from there just adding on all these other channels, whether it be organic, paid, everything is just adding more fuel to the fire. And what we found a lot of success with through trial and error doing a bunch of different things, me testing a bunch of channels, other people testing a bunch of channels. Like one of the main ones we've landed on now is paid and we're funneling that with a lot of UGC content and we have a lot of pillars inside of paid, whether that be UGC video, statics, influencers, in-house videos, founder storytelling. But yeah, paid ads as a whole, whether it be through meta, LinkedIn, YouTube, etc. has definitely become one of our main pillars at Whisper and it's one of the things I'm leading on the content side of things.

太棒了。好的，那我们就深入探讨，但首先，我认为正如你所说，非常重要的一点是，如果你的产品不是非常好，如果还没有真正的自然产品市场契合，这些都不会真正起作用。我想这可以奏效一段时间，但如果产品不好，就会消失。所以，我想这是不是第一步教训，在你开始投资付费广告之前，产品需要自己运转起来？

Awesome. Okay, so let's dive in there, but first and I think to your point, it's really important to say none of this will really work if your product isn't exactly great, if there's not real organic product market fit already. I imagine this can work for a little bit and then it just fades away if the product isn't great. So, I guess is that just like step lesson one, this needs to be working on its own with before you start investing in paid?

是的，没错。我有时有很多创始人联系我或来办公室或朋友，他们会问：“有什么窍门？Whisper 怎么增长这么快？”这并非对其他产品不敬，但如果你早期没有那种增长，你不得不强迫它太多，也许你需要回到绘图板，重新思考你如何定位产品。它对用户真的有价值吗？为什么它不能自然增长？是的，除了拥有好产品，然后添加更多杠杆，真的没有窍门。

Yeah, exactly. I have like a lot of founders sometimes reach out or or come by the office or or friends and they're like, "What's the hack? Like how did Whisper grow so fast?" And it's like no disrespect to other products, but it's like if you're not having that growth early on and you having to force it a little bit too much and maybe you have to like go back to the drawing board a little bit and like rethink how you're actually positioning the product. Is it actually valuable to your users? It why isn't it growing by itself organically? And like yeah, there's really no hack besides having a good product and then adding more more levers to pull from.

那么，我问一下，你认为什么时候开始投资这些自然渠道是合理的？

So, let me ask, when do you think it makes sense to start investing in these in organic channels?

嗯，我认为付费广告实际上是早期最好的投资渠道之一，我从 Matt 那里学到了这一点，他实际上是我们 Whisper 的前增长负责人。

Well, I think paid is actually one of the best channels to invest on early on and I learned this from Matt, who's actually our ex-head of growth at Whisper.

他现在在 Victor，他的很多经验——也是我从他身上学到的——就是把这种电商打法用到 SaaS 上。很多公司不敢开启付费投放引擎，但当你真正开启付费投放引擎时，你学得快得多：你的信息是否真的能打动受众，你是否真的能把冷流量转化成用户？说到底，大多数公司并不擅长自然内容，因为这是很新的东西。除非你团队里有真正懂这些自然渠道的年轻人，知道怎么包装、怎么做内容，否则你很难拿到清晰的数据来判断你的产品到底有没有戏、人们是否真的买账、你能否追踪这些转化等等。所以我认为从一开始就做付费投放是合理的——当然要在你的极限和预算范围内测试。但如果你能看到自己能把冷流量变成付费用户，那你就有了一个清晰的信号：同样的信息、同样的产品，只要再优化一下，在自然渠道上也能行得通。

He's now at Victor, and a lot of his lessons—and lessons that I've learned from him—involve taking this e-commerce approach to SaaS. A lot of companies are scared to turn on the paid engine, but when you actually turn on the paid engine, you learn a lot faster: does the messaging actually resonate with your audience, are you actually able to convert this cold traffic into users? At the end of the day, most companies aren't that skilled in organic content because it's something very new. Unless you have really young people on your team who understand these organic channels really well, know how to package it, know how to make the content, it's really hard to get any clear numbers on whether your product actually has legs, whether people actually resonate with it, whether you're actually able to track these conversions, etc. So I think paid makes sense from the get-go—obviously testing within your limits and the budgets that you have. But if you're able to see that you can turn this cold traffic into paying users, then you have a clear signal that this same messaging or this product will also work on organic if you optimize things a bit more.

我想回头再聊这个——早期团队可能是什么样子，甚至可能在产品市场契合之前。但你分享的内容真正有意思的地方在于，付费投放已经存在很久了：在 Instagram、Facebook、TikTok 上投广告，所有这些。作为平台没什么新鲜的。而你说的是，付费投放里仍然有很多 alpha 和机会，可以大幅增长、做出不一样的东西。

I want to come back to that—what that early team may look like, even maybe pre-product-market fit. But what's really interesting about what you're sharing here is that paid has been around for a long time: running ads on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, all these things. There's nothing new as a platform. And what you're saying here is there's still a lot of alpha and opportunity to grow substantially and do something different in paid.

是的，百分之百。很多时候人们也会害怕，因为他们会说：“哦，我还不想开启付费投放引擎，或者花一大笔钱，因为那样我们会到达一个点，把这个市场或这个 ICP 过度饱和。”但说到底，这只是要更聪明地定位产品，而且总有新办法——新的信息、新的 ICP 可以瞄准——只要你对内容的切入角度、或者对如何操作付费投放机制足够精明，你其实不会真正触及饱和。

Yeah, 100%. A lot of times people also get scared because they'll say, "Oh, I don't want to turn on the paid engine yet or spend a bunch of money because then we're going to reach a point where we oversaturate this market or this ICP." But at the end of the day it's just about getting smarter with how you're positioning the product, and there are always new ways—new messaging, new ICPs you can target—and you won't really reach saturation if you're savvy enough with the angles you're approaching your content with, or how you're approaching that paid mechanism, I guess.

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好。那我们真正深入聊聊这个。聊聊付费 UGC 以及付费投放整体。你采用的、效果这么好的整体策略是什么？

Okay. So let's actually dive into this. Let's talk about paid UGC and paid in general. What's the overall strategy that you have employed that has worked so well?

我觉得也许从我们之前的经验讲起比较好。那要回到哪儿呢？我想是 2025 年初，我们有一个叫 Tobin 的实习生。他现在是我的好朋友。不知道你有没有听说过他，他之前也挺火的。他后来加入了 Polymarket。基本上，Tobin 是作为早期的营销实习生进来的。除了会一些基础的 UGC，他其实没什么经验。我记得他学的是金融，还想当律师。他进来后，我们就给了他一个预算，说你就到处试试，看什么能成。他做了几个项目，都没什么效果。然后他在自然 UGC 上取得了非常好的成功。那也正好是 Clue 时代，当时成功做这件事的人还不多。

I think it would be good to start maybe from what we learned previously, actually. So where do we go back to? I think this was early 2025—we had an intern named Tobin. He's a good friend now. I don't know if you've heard of him; he also went pretty viral a while back. He ended up joining Polymarket. But basically, Tobin came on as an early intern marketing hire. He didn't really have any experience besides some basic UGC. I think he was studying finance and wanted to be a lawyer. He came in and we just gave him a budget and were like, just throw stuff at the wall, see what sticks. He did a few projects, nothing really worked. And then he found really good success with organic UGC. This was also around the Clue era, when there weren't that many people doing it successfully.

解释一下自然 UGC。那到底是什么？

Explain organic UGC. What is that exactly?

好，自然 UGC 基本上就是：你把一群创作者聚到一个群里。这些创作者会做关于你产品的视频，然后发在他们自己的 Instagram 主页或 TikTok 主页上。想象一下，你加入了 Whisper 的自然 UGC 群，你建了一个叫 Lenny Whispers 的账号，然后你把自己的视频上传到那里，再按 CPM 指标拿钱。比如，我不知道，每千次观看 2 美元，然后随着观看量越来越高，单价会递减。Tobin 帮我们搭了这套东西，我记得大概两个半月就有 5 亿次观看。CPM 超低，效果还算不错。但我觉得那也是自然 UGC 的早期阶段，大家都非常关注虚荣指标，而这些指标未必带来很多转化——因为显然，WhisperFlow 这类产品，要让学生付费还是有点难。所以最终我们把这个项目砍掉了。我并不完全反对自然 UGC，只是要确保你不是在追逐虚荣指标。后来 Tobin 在 Polymarket 把这件事做得好得多——他破解了自然 UGC 的密码，不只是做非常顶层的概念。但没错，自然 UGC 确实有效，我们只是在 Whisper 没看到那么多成功，或者说没看到我们想要的成功。而且 Tobin 走了之后，也很难找到人接替他的角色。所以我们就想，干脆砍掉吧。再说，付费投放对我们效果相对不错。

Yeah, so organic UGC is basically: you get a bunch of creators in a group. These creators will make videos about your product and then post them on their own Instagram pages or their own TikTok pages. So imagine you join Whisper's organic UGC group and you make an account called Lenny Whispers, and then you just upload your videos into there, and then you get paid based on a CPM metric. So maybe it's, I don't know, $2 per thousand views, and then it tapers off as you get higher and higher. Tobin set that up for us, and I think in about two and a half months it was 500 million views. Super low CPMs, and it worked decently well. But I think it was also early on in the organic UGC phase, where everyone was really focused on vanity metrics, and they didn't necessarily lead to a lot of conversions—because obviously, with the type of product WhisperFlow is, it's a bit harder to get students to pay for it. So ultimately we ended up killing the program. I'm not entirely against organic UGC; it's just making sure you're not chasing vanity metrics. And then Tobin did this a lot better at Polymarket—he cracked the code with organic UGC, not just doing very top-of-funnel concepts. But yeah, organic UGC does work. We just didn't see that much success, or the success we wanted, at Whisper. And it was also going to be really hard to find someone to take Tobin's role after he left. So we were like, let's just kill this. And then again, paid was working relatively well for us.

这就把我们带到了现在——我是说不是现在，而是大概七个月前。我意识到付费投放效果非常好，而所有付费素材都是我在做。所以我就想，如果我们把 Tobin 在自然 UGC 上的打法——建立这个社群、建立这个创作者名册、按效果付费——用到付费投放上会怎样？也许把广告做得更偏中层漏斗一点，也许更多地去推销产品。我是说，甚至不只是中层漏斗，因为付费广告里你什么都需要，但更多是直接推销产品，而不是只做屏幕加文字的广告。然后我偶然发现了 Tribe——不知道你想不想让我现在讲这个。

So that kind of brings us to where we're at now—I mean, not now, but like seven months ago. I realized that paid was working really well, and I was the one making all the paid assets. So I was like, what if we apply Tobin's playbook from organic UGC—building this community, building this roster, and paying off performance—and just apply it to paid? And maybe make the ads a bit more middle-of-funnel, maybe a bit more pitching the product. I mean, not even just middle-of-funnel, because you need everything in paid ads, but more just pitching the product straight on instead of just screen-on-text ads. And then I stumbled upon Tribe—I don't know if you want me to get into that now.

好啊，聊聊 Tribe。是 T R Y B E，对吧？

Yeah, talk about Tribe. And it's T R Y B E, right?

对，T R Y B E。

Yes, T R Y B E.

所以，Lucas Pacther，他是创办 Tribe 的人，但在此之前他其实创办了 Squid Haus，那是一个服装品牌，他通过 TikTok Shop 让它快速增长。但在 Meta 上并没有真正的方式做同样的事情。所以他做了一个内部工具，让他们可以投放创作者广告并根据表现付费。然后他基本上把它开放给了所有人。我们是最早加入的公司之一。当我看到它时，我就想，这不用犹豫。这就像 TikTok Shop 的方法，但用于 Meta 广告。而且由于 SaaS 公司无法使用 TikTok Shop，现在他们为 SaaS 公司解锁了这种新渠道，能够投放基于表现的广告。是的，我们加入了，建立了我们的项目，如果你快进到现在，我们现在每月投放 500 到 600 个广告。这是一个很棒的过程。显然，这跳过了很多到我们现在的位置，但只是想让大家了解我们尝试了什么，如何奏效，以及如何不奏效，然后我们如何最终采用了现在这种基于表现的付费 UGC 模式。

So, Lucas Pacther, he's this guy who started Tribe, but before that he actually started Squid Haus, which is a clothing brand, and he grew it really fast through TikTok Shop. But there wasn't really a way to do the same thing on Meta. So, he made this internal tool where they could run creator ads and pay them based off performance. And then he basically made it available for everyone. And we were one of the first companies to hop on. And when I saw it, I was like, this is a no-brainer. It's like the TikTok Shop method, but for Meta ads. And since SaaS companies aren't able to use TikTok Shop, it's like now they've unlocked this sort of this new channel for SaaS companies to be able to run performance-based ads. And yeah, we hopped on there, built out our program, and I mean, if you fast forward to now, we're now launching like 500 to 600 ads every single month. And it's been a great process. Obviously, that's kind of skipping a lot to where we're at now, but just wanted to kind of give an idea of what we tried, how it worked, but also didn't work, and then how we ended up on the performance-based model that we have now for paid UGC.

好的，太棒了。我们会深入探讨，但只是确保大家理解我们在这里谈论的内容。所以，当你说有机 UGC 时，它不是免费的。基本上是你让影响者、创作者为 Whisper 制作一个推介。你拿他们的视频，放在你的频道上，然后按观看次数付费。

Okay, amazing. We're going to go much deeper, but just to make sure everyone understands what we're talking about here. So, when you talk about organic UGC, it's not free. It's basically you're getting influencers, creators to create a pitch basically for Whisper. You take their video, you put it on your channel, and you pay them per views.

不，所以他们把它发布在他们的频道上。

No, so they post it on their channels.

他们把它发布在他们的频道上。

They post it on their channels.

是的，是的。所以，它是基于 CPM 的。所以，假设，再次，我们把你带入小组，然后你在 TikTok 和 Instagram 上创建自己的频道，它会像 Lenny Whispers 或 Lenny Talks。它可以是任何东西，但你不会把它发布在你的主 Instagram 上。你会把它发布在一个备用账号上。然后我们会按 CPM 支付给你。

Yeah, yeah. So, it's a CPM-based. So, let's say, again, we bring you into the group, and then you make your own channels on TikTok and Instagram, and it'll be like Lenny Whispers or Lenny Talks. It can be anything really, but you won't then post it on your main Instagram. You'd post it on an alternate. And then we would pay you a CPM-based.

好的，所以这里的大区别是，不是基于 CPM，那基本上是基于观看次数，而是他们抽取花费的百分比，或者呃

Okay, so the big difference here is instead of CPM-based, which is basically views-based, it's they take a percentage of spend or uh

是的，花费的百分比或 GMV，取决于你是 SaaS 还是电商之类的。

Yeah, a percentage of spend or GMB, depending on if you're in SaaS or if you're a e-com, something like that.

太棒了。好的，酷。

Awesome. Okay, cool.

是的。

Yeah.

所以，你已经转向这种模式。它基本上是基于表现的 UGC。所以，为了非常清楚这是如何运作的。你找到我认为你现在可能有大约 50 个创作者。

So, you've shifted to this model. It's basically performance-based UGC. So, just to be very clear about what this how this works. You find I think you have something maybe like 50 creators right now.

是的，现在我们有 50 个。

Yeah, right now we have 50.

好的，我们会讨论你推荐的进展，从几个开始。所以，你找到创作者，他们制作一个视频谈论 WhisperFlow 有多棒。你使用那个视频作为 Meta、TikTok 和其他平台上的广告，然后他们从广告的表现中获得分成。

Okay, and we'll talk about the progression that you recommend starting with a couple. So, you find creators, you they make a video talking about how awesome WhisperFlow is. You use that video as an ad on Meta and TikTok and other platforms, and then they get a cut of how that ad performs.

没错。

Exactly.

然后你有两种关于他们抽取分成的方法。谈谈那个。

And then you have two kind of approaches to the cut they take. Talk about that.

是的，所以显然，我们不想仅仅基于百分比支付创作者，尤其是在早期，因为如果你加入小组，你制作 30 个视频，你只赚了 100 美元的佣金，那会很打击士气。很多时候我们看到我们最好的创作者，他们是我们最好的创作者，因为他们坚持了最久，并且他们理解了模式如何运作。所以我们实际上包含的一件事是所谓的智能保留金。这基本上就像我们说，‘好的，我们将作为创作者支持你。假设我们将制作 25 个视频，我们将支付你 1500 美元，只要你达到那个视频配额，我们就会支付那笔钱。’但是，呃，根据他们赚取多少佣金，我们可能会补足他们，或者我们甚至可能不添加那个智能保留金。所以，为了更清楚一点，假设你在我们的项目中，你达到了 25 个视频，你只赚了 500 美元的佣金，那么我们将额外支付你 1000 美元，因为你达到了那个配额。但是，假设你也达到了那个配额，你赚了 3000 美元的佣金，那么你严格保留佣金，我们不添加任何智能保留金。所以这就像我们说，‘只要你达到这些视频和这些指标，我们将支付你 X 金额。’这使得加入小组第一个月、第二个月、第三个月的创作者，也许他们无法仅靠佣金超过那个金额，但他们能够赚到一些钱，以便他们真正保持专注并继续成长。然后三四个月后，你看到这些创作者开始突破，纯粹赚取佣金，这对我来说作为运行项目的人，或者如果你是品牌所有者，那是最好的事情，因为你支付给他们纯利润，或者纯粹基于表现最好的视频，而不是自掏腰包。另外，我认为一些好的背景是我自己也是一个创作者，所以我发现很多公司，甚至在我们公司，我们有时也这样做。就像我们会给这些创作者简报，让他们为我们制作广告，我们会给他们一整张表，上面写着，‘不要说这个，说这个。使用这些钩子。这是我们希望你谈论产品的方式。这是你需要拍摄产品的方式。’当你给创作者一份 10 页的指南，告诉他们如何拍摄内容、需要谈论什么时，你最终移除了创作者拥有的创意方面。呃，没有什么比那更令人沮丧的了。我知道作为一个创作者，如果我有一个品牌信任我，因为某个原因带我进来，并且只是为我打开大门，让我以我认为最适合产品的方式创作内容，你会从我这里得到更好的内容，而不是如果你只是把我放在这个盒子里。所以这是很多创作者想在我们小组工作的主要原因之一。我们也保持它非常紧密。所以就像这种紧密的感觉。我们带来最优秀的人，然后在此基础上，我们保持非常开放，让他们实验，做他们认为合适的事情。他们都是产品的粉丝。然后在此基础上，他们的收入没有上限。我们不是支付他们 100 美元一个视频。我们不是支付他们 50 美元一个视频。不是一个月 1000 美元。就像它真正没有上限。如果他们有非常好的视频并且投入很多努力，我们现在有创作者每月赚大约 13000 美元。这在其他形式的 UGC 甚至影响者中并不真的可能。他们赚的钱比全职影响者还多。他们可能在自己的 Instagram 账户上有大约 1000、2000 个粉丝。但这只是任何有才华的创作者能够赚到真正钱的一种方式。

Yeah, so obviously, we don't want to just pay creators just off percentage-based, especially early on, because if you're coming to the group, you make 30 videos, and you only make 100 bucks off of commission, then it is pretty demoralizing. And a lot of times we see with our best creators, they're our best creators because they stuck around for the longest and they've understood how the model works. So, one thing we actually have included is is a is is it's called a smart retainer. And what this is is basically like us saying, "Okay, we're going to back you as a creator. And let's say we're going to we're going to do 25 videos and we're going to pay you $1,500 as long as you hit that quota of videos, we'll pay you that money." But, um depending on how much they earn in commissions, then we might top them up or we might not even add that smart retainer in. So, just to make it a bit more clear, let's say that you're in our program and you hit the 25 videos and you only make $500 in commissions, then we will pay you an additional $1,000 because you hit that quota. But, let's say that you also hit that quota and you make $3,000 in commission, then you strictly keep commissions and we don't add any smart retainer. So, it's kind of us saying, "As long as you hit these videos and you hit these metrics, we will pay you X amount." And it makes it so that creators that join in the group month one, month two, month three, maybe they're not able to reach over that amount in strictly commissions, but they're able to make some sort of amount of money so that they actually stay dedicated and keep growing. And then three or four months down the line, you see these creators start to break out and make purely commission space, which for me as the guy running the program or if you're a brand owner, that's like the best thing because you're paying them pure profit or or pure off the best performing videos instead of paying out of pocket. Also, I think some good background is I'm a creator myself, so I found that a lot of companies and even at Wish so we were doing this sometimes as well. It's like we would give briefs to these creators to make ads for us and we would give them this whole sheet where it's like, "Don't say this, say this. Use these hooks. This is how we want you to talk about the product. This is how you need to film the product." And it's like when you send the creator a 10-page guideline on how they need to shoot their content, what they need to talk about, you end up removing the creative aspect that creators have. Um and there's nothing more demotivating than that. And I know as a creator, like if I have a brand that trusts in me, brings me in for a reason, and just opens the doors for me to create content how I see best fit for the product, you're going to get better content out of me than if you just put me in this box. So, that's one of the main reasons that a lot of the creators want to work in our group. And we also keep it really tight-knit. So, it's like this tight-knit feeling. We bring the best of the best, and then on top of that, we keep it really open for them to experiment, do whatever they see fit. They're all fans of the product. And then on top of that, they're not capped at their earnings. We're not paying them $100 for a video. We're not paying them $50 a video. It's not $1,000 for the month. It's like it's truly uncapped. If they have really good videos and they put a lot of effort in, we have creators now that are making like $13,000 a month. And that's not really possible with other forms of UGC or even influencers. They're making more money than than full-time influencers. And they might have like 1,000, 2,000 followers on on their own Instagram accounts. But this has just been a way for any creator who's talented to be able to make real like money.

太棒了。你们的方式是，如果它是购物类产品，你给他们 GMV 的百分比。然后如果是 B2B SaaS 产品，你给他们广告花费的百分比。

Awesome. And the way you do it is if it's a shopping sort of product, you give them a percentage of GMV. And then if it's the B2B SaaS product, you give them a percentage of ad spend.

尤其是当你的产品是免费增值模式、很难追踪直接转化的时候，因为我们也不想陷入这样一种境地：不知道，也许有人是通过他们的广告转化的，也许没有，也许他们购买了，然后我们投放这些广告并从这些广告中获利，而他们却没有拿到应得的报酬。对于 Whisper 这样的产品，归因很难追踪，或者可能要一两周才能追踪到，最好就保持按广告支出的一定比例来付费。但显然，如果你卖的是，我不知道，一个水瓶或一件 T 恤，而且很容易追踪一个人是来自这个广告还是那个广告、有没有购买，那么按 GMV 的一定比例来付费就更合理。

Especially if you have a freemium product where it's hard to track direct conversion, because we also don't want to get into a place where, I don't know, maybe people are converting off their ads or maybe they're not, maybe they're purchasing, and then we're running those ads and profiting off those ads and they're not getting paid what they're worth. With a product like Whisper where it's kind of hard to track those attributions, or it might take a week or two, it's best if we just keep it at a percent of ad spend. But obviously if you're selling, I don't know, a water bottle or a t-shirt and it's really easy to track whether a person came from this ad or that ad and whether they purchase or not, then it makes more sense to do a percent of GMV.

所以这里奏效的创新，是让创作者分到他们广告成功的一杯羹。

So the innovation here that has worked really well is giving the creator a kind of a piece of the action of the success of their ad.

没错。

Exactly.

太棒了。同时还要给下行风险设个上限，这样他们才能真正花时间做这件事，而不是担心自己养不活自己。

Awesome. And then also capping the downside so that they can actually spend time doing this versus being worried that they're not going to make a living.

是的，没错。因为很多时候，这些创作者最后不得不 constantly 跟品牌谈判，或者跟新公司合作、学新东西。而这样一来，这些创作者不仅是重度用户，而且每个月都能跟同一家公司合作。所以想想看，随着时间推移，视频质量提升的复利效应有多大，而不是“哦，你是这个品牌，正在推一个新功能”，然后你说“好吧，赶紧去找新创作者”。而如果你已经有一个内部创作者群体，他们了解你的产品、相信你——我有些创作者对产品的理解几乎比我还深，他们能想出我永远想不出的点子。所以如果你已经有这个内部群体，那太容易了：我们发布新东西时，不管是 Whisper 的笔记工具还是我们发布的各种功能，我只要在 Discord 里丢一句“嘿各位，我们做个视频讲讲这个”，就行了。而不用到处去找各种创作者、给他们做简报，然后下个月他们就不在了，两个月后你又得重新去找。所以是的，这对品牌方和创作者来说都是很棒的体验。

Yeah, exactly. Because a lot of the times these creators end up having to constantly be negotiating with brands or working with new companies, learning new things. And it's like, not only are these creators all power users, but they get to work with the same company every single month. So just think about the compounding effect of how much better the videos get over time, instead of "Oh, you're this brand who's running a new — maybe launching a new feature." And you're like, "Okay, let's scramble to find new creators." And it's like, if you already had that internal group of creators who already know your product and already believe in you — and like some of my creators understand the product better than me almost, and they come up with ideas I never could have come up with. So if you just have that internal group already, it's so easy that when we launch a new thing, whether it was the Whisper note taker or all these different features that we release, it's so easy for me to just drop it in the Discord and be like, "Hey guys, let's make a video on this." Instead of having to go chase around and find all these different creators and brief them, and then the next month they're gone, and then two months down the line you have to go find them again. So yeah, it just makes for a great experience both on the brand side and the creator side.

这又回到产品本身必须很棒这一点，因为如果产品不棒，就很难找到热爱你产品的创作者。

And this again comes back to the product itself has to be awesome, because it'll be very hard to find creators that love your product if the product isn't awesome.

是的，而且作为创作者也很容易倦怠。就像，如果你在讲自己不相信的东西，很快就会觉得无聊。

Yeah, and it's just easy to burn out as well as a creator. Like, if you're talking about something you don't believe in, it can get boring really quick.

是的，这几乎是对产品市场契合度的检验。你能找到对产品感到兴奋的创作者吗——

Yeah, it's almost a test of product market fit. Can you find creators that are excited about —

是的，而且流失率低。

Yeah, and low churn.

是的。

Yeah.

说实话——也补充点背景：我其实在 Whisper 待过，有大约一年半的时间，每一条广告都是我做的。所以我做了成百上千条广告。我想这也能证明我有多爱 Whisper。我没疯。就是这样。

That was honestly — because I guess some context as well: I was actually at Whisper, I was the one making every single ad for like a year and a half. So I made hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of ads. Which I guess that's a testament to how much I loved Whisper. I didn't go crazy. And yeah.

你觉得，对于接手这项工作的人来说，在要求创作者做广告之前，自己先做过广告，这真的很重要吗？

Do you think that is actually really important for the person that takes this work to have been the person creating the ads before asking creators to create the ads?

是的。我认为这很重要，因为这回到我之前提到的一点：很多从未做过内容、或从未与创作者合作过的人，最后却成了给创作者做简报、告诉他们该怎么做的人。这就像，你绝不会让一个不是工程师的人去指挥工程团队——比如，我绝不会走到工程团队面前说“嘿，你们得这样解决这个问题，做这个这个这个”，他们肯定会想“这家伙在说什么？”

Yes. I thought it was important, because it goes back kind of to a point I mentioned earlier, where a lot of people who've never worked in content or who have never worked with creators end up being the ones briefing them and telling them what to do. And it's like, you would never have someone who's not an engineer telling the engineering — like, I would never go up to the engineering team and be like, "Hey, you guys need to solve this problem like this and do this and this and this." And they're going to be like, "What is this guy telling me?"

好，那我们顺着这个话题聊——要找像 Hector 这样的人，如果你要在公司里找一个 Hector 来领导这项工作，这个人的画像是什么样的？

Okay, so let's go down this tangent of — to find someone like Hector, what does a profile look like if you were to find a Hector to lead this work at your company?

因为这是我和很多朋友聊过的最有意思的话题之一，尤其是 Tobin，就像我之前提到的，因为我们俩再相反不过了。如果你把我们的简历并排放在一起，让我问你选哪一个，你脑子里大概会觉得答案很明显，但说到底两个都是正确答案。比如我 GPA 2.5，Tobin 是 4.0。我没上过顶尖名校，Tobin 去了滑铁卢。我打过一级联赛的体育项目，Tobin 没有。有所有这些不同的东西，但最终我们都成了很棒的营销人。可如果你只看简历的表面，这并不明显。不过我觉得 Whisper 很擅长看到一两个真正关键的东西。也能看出：好，这个人适不适合这个文化？看起来是不是很努力？他们的价值观或文化和 Whisper 现有的人是否一致？我觉得 Tenny、Daniel 和团队其他人很擅长不仅发现早期人才、看出该关注哪些关键点，还能看出：好，这是不是一个好人，一个适合加入团队的好人？我觉得 Tobin 和我——当然我可能有点自夸——但我认为我们完美体现了这些性格特质。你可能会问：好，那我招一个好的营销人该看什么特质？说实话，没那么复杂。就是：这个人有没有把一个账号做起来，哪怕只有 1 万粉丝？他们对创作者这件事是不是多少懂行，有没有做过内容？就这么基础。只要他们有建立粉丝群的经验，哪怕粉丝不多，也能说明他们理解把社交媒体粉丝做起来需要怎样的坚持。这说明他们懂趋势、懂怎么做视频、怎么剪辑、怎么拍摄等等。然后，我觉得归根结底是风格。他们看起来是不是努力的人？是不是好人？有没有至少 1 万、1.5 万粉丝？然后就赌一把。而且你不能把一个年轻人招进来就说“好，你没达到我的期望，走人”。Tenny 和 Daniel，还有整个 Whisper 团队，总是给我们很多时间去学习和失败。我确知的是，在 Whisper 的头七个月，我有点——我有点乱七八糟。

Because it's one of the most interesting conversations I have with a lot of my friends, especially Tobin, like I mentioned earlier, because we both couldn't be more opposite from each other. Like if you look at both of our resumes lined up next to each other and I asked you to pick one or the other, you probably in your head will think it's pretty clear which one would be the right answer, but at the end of the day both are the right answer. And like I had a 2.5 GPA, Tobin had a 4.0. I didn't go to a reach school, Tobin went to Waterloo. I played Division 1 sports, Tobin didn't. And like there's all these different things, but at the end of the day we both ended up being great marketers. But that wasn't really evident if you looked at the face value of our resumes. But I think Whisper has done a really good job of seeing one or two really key things. And also being able to see, okay, is this person a good fit for the culture? Do they seem hard working? Do they have the same values or the same culture as people already at Whisper? And I feel like Tenny, Daniel, and the rest of the team are really good at not only spotting early talent and seeing what are those key things to look out for, but also seeing, okay, is this a good person, a good human to have on the team? And I think Tobin and I — obviously I might be speaking a bit too much for myself — but I think we embody those character traits perfectly. And you might be asking, okay, well, what are the traits I need to look for in a good marketing hire? And honestly, it's not that complex. It's like, has this person grown an account, even if it's like 10,000 followers? And do they somewhat understand what they're talking about in terms of creators, and have they made content? Like, that's how basic it is. As long as they have some experience in building a following, even if it's a small following, it shows you that they understand the consistency it takes to grow a social media following. It shows you that they understand trends and how to make a video and how to edit and how to film, etc. And yeah, I think it comes down to style. Do they seem like a hard worker? Are they a good person? And do they have those minimum like 10,000, 15,000 followers? And then taking a shot on them. And you can't just bring a young person in and then be like, "Okay, you're not where I want you to be, you're gone." Like Tenny and Daniel again and the whole Whisper team always gives us a lot of time to learn and fail. And I know for a fact that for the first seven months at Whisper, I was kind of all over the place.

我还在和 Daniel 开玩笑说，这里时不时会有一些艰难的对话，你会听到有人说：“Hector 在干什么？”但没错，他们给了我自由去不断尝试和试验新事物。只要你一直在学习、在进步，失败并不重要。Tobin 也是一样。Tobin 加入后，他们给了他一些资金和时间去试验。大约两个月后，他找到了行之有效的方法，并且坚持了下来。

I still joke about it with Daniel, how there were some hard conversations here and there where you're like, "What's Hector doing?" But yeah, they gave me the freedom to keep experimenting and keep trying new things. And it didn't really matter if you failed as long as you're consistently learning and getting better. And that's the same for Tobin. Tobin came in, they gave him some money and some time to experiment. And after like 2 months, he found something that worked and it stuck.

好的，这非常有价值。前几天有条推文说，现在最难招的职位基本上就是你这样的人——能够谈论产品、技术层面，让人们兴奋，让产品有吸引力。而你正在告诉我们这个画像是什么样的。所以，回顾一下你刚才说的：第一，有证据表明他们非常努力；第二，有证据表明他们是好人，他们的价值观和文化与你的公司一致；第三，他们实际上已经将一个平台做到至少 1 万粉丝。这可以是任何平台，比如 Instagram、TikTok——

Okay, this is extremely valuable. There's this tweet the other day that came out about how the hardest role to hire for right now is basically someone like you—someone who can talk about the product, the technical aspects, get people excited, make the product compelling. And you're telling us what this profile looks like. So, just to reflect back what you just said: one is evidence that they're very hard working, evidence they're a good person, that their values and culture align with your company. Three, they've actually grown a platform to at least 10,000 followers. And this could be any platform, like Instagram, TikTok—

我会说 Instagram 可能是最高的信号，因为 TikTok 通常更多是脑残内容。而 Instagram 更精致、包装更好。而且你在那里获得的粉丝作为平台来说就是更好。所以，我只是觉得 Instagram 可能比 TikTok 是更高的信号。在 TikTok 上增长很容易，比如发一些脑残内容，我会这么说。

I would say Instagram is probably the highest signal because TikTok is typically a bit more brain rot content. And Instagram is a bit more polished, better packaged. And also the followers you get on there as a platform are just better. So, I just think Instagram's probably a higher signal than TikTok. It's pretty easy to grow on TikTok, like posting some brain rot stuff, I would say.

我明白了。那 X 和 YouTube 呢？

I see. What about like X and YouTube?

YouTube 还不错，但我会说如果你理解像 Instagram 这样的平台，你就能攻克任何平台。是的，这就是我的经验。我是说，Instagram 和 YouTube——如果你能攻克 Instagram 和 YouTube，我很有信心，尤其是如果你是个年轻人，你就能攻克任何平台。比如直到两周前我都没怎么在 X 上发过帖。我从 X 上大约 500 粉丝涨到了大约 1.8 万。我其实不太习惯在纯文字平台上发帖，但大约一周后我就搞明白了。就像，好吧，这是一个数量游戏。你需要保持简短，有自己的风格，并且真正提供一些价值。那很容易学。而且我认为如果你从 X 开始，进入视频会有点难，因为视频完全是另一头野兽。坐下来拍摄不是一件容易的事。我有一些同事——我推动他们开始制作视频。向 Eric 致敬。他是我们的媒体采购。我让他制作视频。是的，他在第一个月有点挣扎，但我认为走出舒适区尝试拍摄一些视频是好的。但没错，这绝对不容易。所以我会说是的，Instagram 和 YouTube。

YouTube is decent, but I would say if you understand the platform like Instagram, you can crack any platform. And yeah, that's my experience. I mean, Instagram and YouTube—I would say if you can crack Instagram and YouTube, I'm confident, especially if you're a young individual, you can crack any platform. Like I'd never posted on X much until like 2 weeks ago. And I went from like 500 followers on X to like 18,000. And I wasn't really used to posting on a text-only platform, but I figured it out after like a week. It's like, okay, it's a volume game. You need to keep it short, kind of have your own style, and actually give some value. And that was pretty easy to learn. And I think if you start on X, it's a bit harder to get into video because video is a whole another beast. Sitting down and filming is not an easy thing. I've had some colleagues—I pushed them to start making videos. Shout out to Eric. He's our media buyer. I told him to make a video. And yeah, he struggled a little bit in his first month, but I think it's good to step out of your comfort zone and try and film some videos. But yeah, it's definitely not easy. So I would say yes, Instagram and YouTube.

其实我就是这样在 X 上发现你的，然后它就爆了，现在我的整个信息流最近全是 Hector 的视频。所以我没意识到你两周前才开始发帖。这太疯狂了。显然这又是你在这方面有多高效的另一个标志。所以我想强调的另一点就是年轻人才这个想法。这是你经常谈论的。就是雇佣年轻人的价值，几乎像是阿尔法。

That's actually how I discovered you on X, and it's just blown up and now my entire feed is just Hector videos recently. So I didn't realize you just started posting in 2 weeks. That's insane. Clearly another sign of how effective you are at this. So another bullet point I want to double down on there is just this idea of young talent. That's something you talk a lot about. Just the value and almost like the alpha in hiring young people.

是的。我是说，回到你刚才提到的点，关于这是最难招的职位。我认为很简单。这归结于我之前提到的——两份简历。对于一个好的营销人员或理解社交媒体的现代好营销人员来说，没有明确的路径。如果你寻找那些你可能认为是高信号的东西，比如最好的成绩、最好的学校、某些专业，你最终不会得到你设想的营销人员。所以我认为这就是为什么难，因为没有真正明确的路径，比如“好吧，这就是你如何找到下一个 Togan 或下一个 type three 或下一个 X 人。”所以是的，我的建议是，如果你想找一个像我这样的人，那就尽量不要找像我这样的人，因为你找不到合适的人。就像给某个有疯狂背景的孩子一个机会，越疯狂越好，并且显然在工作中有一些证明。但是的，你问的点是年轻人才的重要性，对吧？以及为什么这真的很重要。

Yeah. I mean, also going back to the point that you had just mentioned about how it's the hardest role to hire. I think it's very simple. It just boils down to what I mentioned—the two resumes. There's no clear path for a good marketer or good modern marketer who understands socials. And if you look for these things that you might think are high signal, whether it's the best grades, the best school, certain majors, you're not going to end up with the marketer that you had envisioned. So I think that's why it's hard because there's no real defined path of like, "Okay, this is how you find the next Togan or the next type three or the next X person." So yeah, my suggestion if you're trying to find someone similar to me would be try not to find someone similar to me because you're not going to find the right person. It's just like give a shout out to some kid who has some crazy background and the crazier the better and obviously has some proof in the work. But yeah, the point that you were asking was the importance of young talent, right? And why that really matters.

是的。

Yeah.

我想我在很多不同的行业都见过这个例子。我不知道你是否听说过 Jimmy Fairly，但他就像是 TikTok 商店的元老之一。他一直在那里，我不知道，从 17 岁开始。建立了一个庞大的机构。与一些最大的品牌合作。最近我认为他的机构被 Physician's Choice 以大约 200 万美元收购，现在他在他们内部，也和另外两个品牌合作。但我只是看到这个孩子让自己周围——我是说他现在比我大，但我看到他让自己周围都是这些年长的创始人，所有这些电商品牌的年长创始人总是谈论着有一个 Jimmy 在你身边是多么阿尔法，因为一个 30-40 岁的创始人无法理解一个 18 岁的孩子在那些 Discord 聊天中或每天在 Instagram 和 TikTok 上刷屏——他们不理解什么真正有效以及接近这些新渠道的最佳方式。如果你身边有年轻人，无论你在什么行业，无论你是 SaaS、电商还是其他什么，你只是找到一个理解你不理解的事情和早期事物的人，你能够提问并向他们学习，我认为团队中有这样的人是理所当然的。就像即使你现在尽力深入 TikTok 商店或 Tribe，你仍然会挣扎，因为你无法与创作者建立那么多联系，或者你无法理解某些事情，你只是需要更长的时间来适应这些事情，而不是把时间花在你更擅长的事情上，然后带一个能为你管理这些事情的人。

I think I've seen this example in a lot of different industries. I don't know if you've heard of Jimmy Fairly, but he's like one of the TikTok shop OG guys. He's been on there, I don't know, since he was like 17. Built a huge agency. Works with some of the biggest brands. And recently I think his agency got acquired by Physician's Choice for like $2 million and now he's in-house with them and also with two other brands. But I've just seen this kid surround himself—I mean he's older than me now, but I've seen him surround himself with all these older founders and all these older founders of these e-com brands are always just talking about how having a Jimmy next to you is so much alpha because a 30-40 year old founder doesn't understand what an 18-year old kid who's in these Discord chats or who's scrolling every day on Instagram and TikTok—they don't understand what's actually working and the best ways to approach these new channels. And if you have young people next to you in whatever industry you are, whether you're in SaaS, you're in e-com, whatever it is, and you just find someone that understands the things that you don't and the early things and you're able to ask questions and learn from them, I think it's a no-brainer to have someone like that on your team. It's like even if you do your best now to dive into TikTok shop or into Tribe, you're still going to struggle because you're not going to be able to connect as much with the creators or you're not going to understand certain things and it's just going to take you a lot longer time to get used to those things instead of putting your time into something that you're better at and then bringing someone that can manage those things for you.

我喜欢这个建议。总是有谈论说，你知道，年轻人没有工作机会了。AI 正在夺走每个人的工作，而这是一个很好的例子，年轻人实际上更擅长这项工作。

I love this advice. There's always talk about, you know, no jobs left for young folks. AI is taking everyone's jobs and this is a really good example where young people are actually much better at this work.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得显然 Tanay 非常年轻，她是我认识的最聪明的人之一，但他还是会把我叫进办公室或者打电话问我，比如，Instagram 上什么有效？你怎么这么快做到的？或者只是问我一些关于内容的一般性问题。我不认为我见过 Tanay 和团队这样。我不认为有任何时候你会聪明到需要停止学习。如果你接受创始人的这种心态，我觉得就像你停止成长的那一天。这是我肯定从 Tanay 那里学到的东西：你永远不会太优秀或太聪明而不用继续学习，甚至可以从像我这样的随便一个 22 岁或 19 岁的人那里学习。

And I think obviously Tanay is super young and she's one of the smartest people I know, and he'll still bring me into his office or hop on a call and be asking me like, oh, what's working on Instagram? How are you doing this so fast? Or just ask me questions about content in general. And I don't think I've seen this from Tanay and the team in general. I don't think there's ever a point where you get smart enough to where you need to stop learning. And if you take that mentality of the founder, I think it's like the day you stop growing. And that's something I've definitely learned from Tanay: you're never too good or too smart to continue learning, and it can even be from a random 22-year-old or 19-year-old like me.

我喜欢这个。你加入 WhisperFlow 的时候大概 19 岁，对吧？

I love that. And you joined WhisperFlow at like 19, right?

是的，我刚满 19 岁。大概是我生日后 3 天。

Yes, I had just turned 19. It was like 3 days after my birthday.

那你花了多久才觉得，好吧，我大概搞明白了一些事情？你说一开始有点坎坷，不确定自己在做什么。

And how long did it take you to feel like okay, I've kind of figured something out? You said initially it was kind of rocky and not sure what you were doing.

是的，我是说

Yeah, I mean

给大家一些背景。

Give people some context.

这是一个奇怪的转变，因为我大约 3 天前也刚刚退出了 Division One 足球。我 literally 回家，在 LinkedIn 上搜索 WhisperFlow。嗯，是的，我想说我在 LinkedIn 上搜索了创作者职位。我申请了大约 200 个职位，找到了一家叫 WhisperFlow 的公司。我申请了，和 Tanay 通了个电话，然后我就加入了。是的，太疯狂了。回顾一些记忆，比如记得那是我们准备发布的最初几天。我当时在我的，我想是微积分课上，Tanay 开始在课上给我发 Slack 消息，我离开去洗手间，打开笔记本电脑，加入了 Slack 通话，他基本上说，‘我们的发布视频不是它应该有的样子。你觉得你能在 CapCut 或你有的任何工具上编辑它，让它更有 Z 世代的氛围吗？’是的，我在上微积分课，我就开始编辑视频。我有一些编辑经验，但 Tanay 在我最初几周就让我做这个，挺吓人的。但是的，这基本上总结了我第一年在 Whisper 的经历。我只是随便捡东西做，没有明确的职位。我 pretty sure 他们也不太知道我在做什么。我也不知道我在做什么。是的，我大概花了一年才真正感到舒适。有很多起起落落。实际上我还想指出一点，我之后还做了一个金融实习。所以，已经一年了。整个学年过去了。然后是我大三升大四，那个夏天我申请了。嗯，我在年初申请了一堆金融实习，因为我不知道内容创作是不是一个真正的职业。显然我很享受 Whisper，我也为我的个人品牌赚了一些不错的钱，但我想，‘我不知道这是不是真正的职业。’我的父母，我们移民到美国等等，我上大学学金融是件大事，他们希望我走传统路线。所以，我最终在纽约市找到了一个金融实习，我平衡着两门暑期课程、WhisperFlow 和金融实习。实习大约 2 周后，我讨厌它。我想，‘我不想要我的生活是这样的。我需要让内容和 Whisper 成功。’所以，我会偷偷溜出办公室，去 Soho 的一些咖啡馆，只是做 Whisper 和我的个人内容。从那时起，一切开始变得顺利，然后是的，差不多就是这样。

It was a weird transition because I had just quit Division One soccer like 3 days before as well. And I literally went home, looked up WhisperFlow on LinkedIn. Well, yeah, I want to say I looked up creator jobs on LinkedIn. I applied to like 200 positions, found some company called WhisperFlow. I applied, had a call with Tanay, and then I joined. And yeah, it was crazy. Looking back at some of the memories, like remember it was one of the first days when we're getting ready for our launch. And I was in my, I think it was my calculus class, and Tanay started slacking me in class, and I left to go to the bathroom and popped up my laptop, and I hopped into the Slack huddle, and he was basically like, 'Our launch video isn't what it needs to be. Do you think you can edit it on CapCut or whatever tools you have and make it a bit more Gen Z vibes?' And yeah, I got a calculus, and I just started editing a video. I had some editing experience, but for Tanay on one of my first weeks to ask me to do that was pretty scary. But yeah, that pretty much summed up my first year at Whisper. I just picked up random stuff, didn't really have a clear position. I'm pretty sure they didn't really know what I was doing either. I didn't know what I was doing. And yeah, it probably took me a year to feel actually comfortable. And there was a lot of ups and downs. And actually one thing I want to point out as well is I was also doing a finance internship after. So, it'd been a year. It had been a whole school year. And then it was my junior going to senior year, and that summer I had applied. Well, I had applied to a bunch of finance internships early in the year because I didn't know if content was a real career. Like obviously I was enjoying Whisper, and I was making some decent money for my personal brand, but I was like, 'I don't know if this is a real career.' And my parents, like we immigrated to the US and everything, and me being in college and studying finance was a big deal, and they wanted me to go down the traditional route. So, I ended up landing a finance internship in New York City, and I was balancing two summer classes, WhisperFlow, and finance internship. And like 2 weeks into the internship, I hated it. And I was like, 'I do not want my life to be like this. I need to make content and Whisper work out.' So, I'd sneak out the office and go to some cafes in Soho and just work on Whisper and my personal content. And then from there, everything started to click and then yeah, that's kind of how it worked.

多么精彩的旅程。我觉得我们可以另外专门聊一次创作者之路，以及如何在 Instagram 和所有这些平台上成为内容创作者。那是另一个话题。我稍后会回到你如何为这种付费 UGC 策略找到创作者。

What a journey. I feel like we could have a whole other conversation about just the creator path and how to become a content creator on Instagram and all these platforms. That's its own thing. I'm going to come back to how you find the creators for this kind of paid UGC strategy.

如果我们现在诚实地走一遍整个策略，我觉得这是一个好时机来梳理一切。所以，是的，就像我们提到的，第一步是弄清楚，好吧，如果你在 SaaS，你会做广告支出的百分比。如果你在电子商务，你会做 GMV 的百分比。然后从那里，你在你选择的任何平台上设置群组。我认为 Tribe 是最好的一个。这是我们在 Whisper 使用的。一旦你设置好群组，就像，好吧，现在你必须去实际找到创作者。如果你想一想，就像想象你从零开始创业，你登陆一个平台，有成千上万的创作者，成千上万的品牌，而你的公司没有历史。很可能，你无法得到最好的。这就是很多公司出错的地方。他们开始在这些平台上做大量外联，他们会说，为什么创作者会想为一个没有钱的品牌工作？例如，在 Tribe 上，它显示我们支付给创作者多少钱。大约是 30 万美元。它显示我们群组里有多少创作者，然后我们有多少广告在运行之类的。当创作者看到我们支付了 30 万美元，而我们只有 50 个创作者时，你可以想象我们收到多少主动联系。但相反，如果你是一个支付了 0 美元、零创作者的品牌，那就很难让创作者加入。所以我做的是，我离开平台，去像 Instagram 这样的平台。你只需搜索一堆关键词。可以是 UGC 创作者，我不知道，科技、朝九晚五、律师、医生、睡眠补充剂，无论你所在的细分领域是什么，然后深入挖掘。然后你会找到你喜欢的创作者，发送，然后你也浏览他们的关注和粉丝列表，你也搜索那些完全相同的关键词。因为通常好的创作者认识其他好的创作者。然后我说一周内大约发送 150 到 250 条私信。这些应该是非常有针对性的私信。不应该是，‘哦，我要用一些群发软件发送 3,000 条消息。’需要非常——你需要关心小事情，因为现在有了所有这些自动化，是的，你可以快速做很多事情，但如果你做得非常快，你可能会得到很多垃圾回复或很多糟糕的创作者。我认为对于外联，手动做仍然更好。显然，这会花更长一点时间，但如果你做对了，我就不必再做外联了。是的，从那些 150 到 250 条私信中，你可能会得到大约五六个真正好的创作者。

If we walked through the whole strategy honestly now, I think this would be a good moment to walk through everything. So, yeah, like we were mentioning, the first step is figuring out, okay, if you're in SaaS, you're going to do percent of ad spend. If you're in e-commerce, you're going to do percent of GMV. And then from there, you'll set up the group on whatever platform you choose. I think Tribe is the best one. It's the one we use at Whisper. And then once you have your group set up, it's like, okay, now you have to go actually find the creators. And if you think about it, it's like imagine you're starting a company from zero and you land on a platform and there's thousands of creators, thousands of brands, and your company has no history. More than likely, you're not going to be able to get the best of the best. And this is where a lot of companies go wrong. They'll start doing a lot of outreach on these platforms and they're like, why would a creator want to work for a brand that has no money? For example, on Tribe it says how much money we paid out to creators. It's like $300,000. It says how many creators we have in the group and then how many ads we have running or whatever. And when creators see that we've paid $300,000 out and that we only have 50 creators in, you can imagine the amount of inbound that we get. But on the contrary, if you're a brand who has $0 paid out and zero creators, it's going to be really hard to get creators in. So, what I did is I went off platform and I went on platforms like Instagram. And you just look up a bunch of keywords. It can be like UGC creators, I don't know, tech, 9-to-5, lawyer, doctor, sleep supplements, whatever niche you're in, and just go down a bunch of rabbit holes. And then you'll land on creators that you like, send, and then you also go through their following and follower list and you also search those same exact keywords. Because typically good creators know other good creators. And then I say from around 150 to 250 DMs over a week. And these should be very targeted DMs. It shouldn't be like, 'Oh, I'm going to use some mass software and send 3,000 messages.' Needs to be very—you need to care about the small things because nowadays with all these automations, yes, you can do a lot of things fast, but if you do it very fast, you're probably going to get a lot of slop back or a lot of bad creators back. And I think for outreach it's still better to do it manually. Obviously, it's going to take a bit longer, but if you do it right, I haven't had to do outreach ever again. And yeah, from those 150 to 250 DMs, you're probably going to get like five or six really good creators.

然后从那里，你把他们引入小组，接着就进入下一步，也就是真正构建文化，比如为创作者举办各种活动，比如会议——我们每周都开会。现在我们有了创作者教练来帮助保持创作者的参与度。我们做赠品活动。下个月我们将在旧金山举办一次静修会，我们会把一些最优秀的创作者从世界各地接过来。所以这些小事你开始做起来，就能逐渐建立起文化。

Then from there, you onboard them to the group and then that's where you get to the next step, which would be actually building out the culture, which is like just doing all these events and things for the creators, whether it be like meetings—we host weekly meetings. Now we're at a stage where we have creator coaches that help keep our creators engaged as well. We do giveaways. We're hosting a retreat in San Francisco next month. We're flying in some of our best creators from around the world. So like these little things that you start to do to build up more and more culture.

然后从那里，你有了一个小型创作者小组，你也设定了广告支出比例和 GMV 比例，并且也建立了文化。然后从那里，你可以慢慢开始增加更多创作者。我们在 Whisper 的做法是，大概从 5 个到 10 个，10 个到 15 个，15 个到 20 个。我们可能每几周增加 5 到 6 个创作者。而由于此时你也有了那 5 个创作者，并且可能已经支付了一些钱，就会开始有人在 Tribe 上申请。我想现在我们每周大概收到 1000 到 1500 份申请。所以我审核这些创作者申请，然后从那里，由于我们现在有很多创作者，我保持很高的标准，可能只接受一两个或三个。但没错，我们增长得相当慢，现在我们有大约 50 个创作者。

And then from there, so you have a small group of creators, you've also set up the percent of ad spend and percent of GMV, and you've also built a culture. Then from there, you can slowly start to add more and more creators. And the way we did that at Whisper is we probably went from like five to 10, 10 to 15, 15 to 20. We probably added like five to six creators every few weeks. And since at this point you also have like the five creators and you've probably paid out a bit of money, you'll start to get some people start to apply on Tribe. I think now we probably get like 1,000 to 1,500 applications a week. So I go through those creator applications and then from there, since we now have a lot of creators, I keep a really high bar and I'll only accept maybe one or two or three. But yeah, we grew pretty slowly and now we're like 50 creators.

除了从 Tribe 接受创作者，我们实际上还做了一件事，就是推出了推荐计划，每带来一个创作者加入小组，我们会支付 100 美元。这不是什么传销金字塔骗局。LinkedIn 上有一堆人。我的帖子在 LinkedIn 上火了，大家都说：“这听起来像骗局。听起来像传销金字塔之类的销售。”我们不是付钱让他们随便拉人进来。而是付钱让他们推荐创作者。如果我觉得合适，我们才会引入。但我们不想让更多人进来。我们上限是 50 人。不是那种“哦，给我带 100 个创作者，我付你 100 个创作者的钱，然后我们再付另外 100 个创作者。”这是一个非常紧密的大家庭，这只是我们感谢你帮助项目成长的方式。

And aside from accepting creators from Tribe, one of the things we've done actually is we've introduced a referral program where we will pay creators $100 per creator they bring into the group. And it's not some sort of like MLM pyramid scheme thing. Like there was a bunch of people on LinkedIn. My post blew up on LinkedIn and everyone was like, "This sounds like a scam. Like sounds like an MLM pyramid or whatever sales." And like we're not paying them to just bring creators in. It's like we're paying them to send a creator over. If I think they're a good fit, then we'll bring them in. But we don't want more people in. Like we're capped at 50. It's not like, "Oh, bring me 100 creators and I'll pay you for 100 creators and then we'll pay another 100 creators." Like this is a very tight-knit family and it's just our way of saying thank you for helping us grow the program.

是的，这些就是我们用来发展小组的一些不同杠杆。然后这就引出了最后一步，我不知道。我讲得太快了吗？还是

And yeah, those are like some different levers we've applied to kind of grow the group. And then that brings me to the last step, which I don't know. Am I going too fast through this or

不，我很好。我确实有问题，但继续吧。

No, I'm good. I do have questions, but keep going.

是的，这就引出了最后一步，就是现在你有了文化，你有了小组里的人，你达到了不错的规模，你有了 GMV 比例、广告支出比例。现在开始会发生一件事：你会收到很多广告。你的广告会在小组里显示。它会显示：“好吧，哪个广告花费最多，第二多，第三多？”你的创作者可以看到这些。显然你希望他们看到。但如果你不擅长指导创作者，这也可能适得其反，因为这些创作者会看到表现最好的广告，然后他们会说：“好吧，我也要复制那些广告。我要复制他们在做的。”如果你最终这样做，结果就是你会得到 300 个看起来一样的广告，感觉都一样。而 Meta，当一个广告相似度达到 160% 时，它就会把它们归为一组，无论是同样的 T 恤、同样的场景、同样的说辞。Andromeda 现在超级复杂。例如，它会扫描你的广告五遍，它会提取转录文本，它会提取每一帧，它会看屏幕上的文字。如果你想想，没有什么能逃过它。这就是为什么如果你不断重复相同的格式、相同的信息、相同的人，你很快就会达到广告疲劳。

Yeah, that brings me to the last step, which is like now you have the culture, you have the people in the group, you're at like a decent size, you have the percent of GMV, percent of ad spend. And now one thing that's going to start to happen is you're getting a lot of ads. And your ads are going to show like in the group. It's going to show like, "Okay, which is the ad that's doing the most spend, second most spend, the third spend?" And your creators can see these things. And like obviously you want them to see it. But it can also backfire if you're not like good at coaching your creators because these creators will see the top-performing ads and they'll be like, "Okay, I want I'm going to copy those ads as well. I'm going to copy what they're doing." And if you end up doing that, what ends up happening is you get 300 ads that all look the same, they all feel the same. And Meta, when an ad is like 160% similar, it ends up grouping it together whether it's like the same t-shirts, you're in the same setting, you're saying the same words. Like Andromeda is super complex now. And for example, it'll scan your ad like five times over, it'll pull the transcript, it'll pull like each frame out, it'll look at the text on screen. And like if you think about it, like nothing's going to get past that. And that's why you can reach ad fatigue really quickly if you're constantly repeating the same formats, the same messaging, the same people.

所以我们做的是不断推动这些创作者，提醒他们：这些创作者赚这么多钱、他们的广告都排在顶部的原因，是因为他们不断尝试，他们坚持发挥自己作为创作者真正擅长的东西，以及他们作为创作者感兴趣的东西。如果你只是跟随 A、B 或 C 的做法，那么你的广告排名就会在他们之下，你拿不到任何花费。所以我们不断推动创作者继续尝试，继续做疯狂的事情。当你看看我们广告库中的一些广告时，这就是为什么我说创作者有时比我更了解产品，能想出比我更好的概念和想法，这就是为什么我远离简报。

So what we do is we continuously push these creators and remind them like the reason these creators are making so much money and that their ads are all at the top is because they kept experimenting and they kept leaning into what they were actually good at as creators and what interests them as creators. And if you just follow what person A, B, or C are doing, then your ads are just going to rank under them and you're not going to get any spend. So, we constantly push creators to just keep experimenting, keep doing crazy stuff. And when you look at some of the ads in our library, it's like that's why I say like the creators sometimes understand the product better than me and come up with better concepts and ideas better than me and that's why I stay away from briefs.

比如我们最近有一个非常好的广告例子，这个创作者把他的键盘放在窗外的屋顶上，当时在下雨，就像，好吧，它让你停下来，因为这是一个非常有趣的视觉钩子。然后镜头摇过去，上面写着：“我的键盘想说什么？”然后镜头摇到他的笔记本电脑，雨滴在打字，然后它开始打出随机单词，然后它说：“下载 Whisper Flow。”这最终成为我们表现最好的广告之一。我甚至不知道我们是怎么想到的。所以，为他点赞。但这就是当你保持真正开放时会发生的事情。你有趣的产品，你让创作者玩得开心，继续尝试。而且，我们广告库里没有两个广告看起来是一样的。

Like one example of a really good ad that we had recently was this creator had his keyboard outside his window on a roof and it was raining and it was like, okay, so it's like it stops you cuz it's like a very interesting visual hook. And then it pans over and on the thing it says, "What is my keyboard trying to say?" And it pans over to his laptop and it's like the raindrops are typing and then it starts typing random words and then it says, "Download Whisper Flow." And that ended up becoming one of our best-performing ads. It's like I don't even know how we came up with that. So, kudos to him. But that's what happens when you keep it really open-ended. You fun product and you let the creators have fun and just keep experimenting. And yeah, like no two ads in our ad library look the same.

哇，太棒了。好的。让我试着梳理一下这里的步骤，因为这是太多宝贵的黄金建议了。所以，第一步，在 Tribe 上注册。Tribe 算是你管理创作者、支付报酬等等的地方。你这里的建议是不要通过 Tribe 去找他们，因为还没人会在意你，你的建议是去 Instagram，用关键词搜索你市场里的东西，比如 UGC、科技、律师，那些可能想兼职赚钱的人，来招募最初的五个。建议是从五个开始，不要搞太大。好的。

Wow, amazing. Okay. Let me try to walk through the steps here cuz this was so much juicy gold stuff advice. So, step one, sign up on Tribe. Tribe is kind of where you manage creators and pay out and all that kind of stuff. Your advice here is don't work through Tribe to find them because no one's going to care about you yet and your advice is go to Instagram, keyword search for things like kind of in your market, UGC, tech, lawyers that maybe want to make money on the side to recruit the first five. The advice is start with five, don't go too big. Okay.

而且我想说，甚至不只是从五个开始或从律师开始之类的。而是你必须看看你的广告库，看看你的产品，然后说：“好吧，我们有哪些具体的缺口确实需要填补？”因为更多不一定更好，这适用于生活中的一切，但特别是在创作者方面，如果你只是带来 100 或 200 个相同的创作者，那不会带来规模扩张，因为再次强调，一切都会看起来一模一样。但当你引入五个创作者，每个都针对特定的受众，每个都针对你产品可能特定的信息。

And I would also it's not even just start with five or start with lawyers or whatever. It's like you have to look at your ad library and look at your product and be like, "Okay, what specific gaps do we have that we actually need to fill in?" Because more isn't necessarily better and like that applies to everything in life, but specifically in creators, if you just bring 100 or 200 of the same creators that isn't going to lead to scale because again, everything's going to look the exact same. But when you bring in five creators that each speak to a specific audience, each speak to maybe a specific messaging of your product.

你找来五个，净是五个不同的创作者，他们都能做出全新的概念，而且你引入的不同创作者越多，效果就呈指数级增长。所以，这不仅仅是引入几个创作者的问题，还在于你要非常具体地选择你实际引入的那几个创作者。

You get five net five different creators that can all make net new concepts and like it just exponentially grows the more different creators you bring on board. So, it's like not just the point about bringing a few creators, it's also being very specific about those few creators you're actually bringing in.

所以，当你这么说的时候，就是要考虑你瞄准的是什么样的客户市场、什么样的 ICP，以及哪个创作者能对那个受众说话。

And so, when you say that, it's think about what customer kind of market, what ICP you're targeting, and what's the creator that will speak to that audience.

没错。所以在 Whispire，我们有从妈妈到律师的各种人，Whispire 的妙处在于，当你有一个人们喜爱的产品时，你会吸引很多很酷的人想和你的品牌合作。我们有一个八位数收入的电商创始人，他太爱 Whispire 了，以至于他直接为我们制作广告。我觉得这太不可思议了。一个电商业务很成功的人，他如此热爱 Whispire，只想成为社区的一部分，他 45 岁，有孩子，是的，我们基本上有你能想象到的任何人。工程师、律师、妈妈、销售代表、 agency 老板，任何类型的 ICP 你都能想象到。

Exactly. So, at Whispire, we have everything from like moms to lawyers, we have like this the awesome thing about Whispire is like when you have a product that people love, like you get so many cool people wanting to work with your brand. We have like an eight-figure e-com founder that loves Whispire so much that he just makes ads for us. And it's like I find that pretty incredible. Like some dude who has a successful e-com business, he loves Whispire so much he just wants to be part of the community and he's like 45, has kids, and yeah, like we have basically anything you can imagine. Engineers, lawyers, um moms, uh sales reps, agency owners, like any any type of ICP you can imagine.

我也经常从不同行业的创始人那里收到这个问题，他们会说：“哦，我有一个开发工具，或者我在睡眠领域。我无法为我的品牌制作内容，或者我在 UGC 上没有成功。”很多时候，人们误以为 UGC 只是大学生制作的内容，但 UGC 是用户生成内容，如果你是一个开发工具，你的用户可能是一个年长的技术人员，你不能找一个不懂技术的 18 岁少年来谈论你的产品。那些广告可能看起来非常不同。例如，我们在 Whispire 的技术广告，当你面向这个年长的人群，他们不太用 Instagram，或者可能更严肃一些，广告越无聊、越丑，效果就越好，这可以简单到像是一个有人使用你的产品的屏幕录制。它可能是一分钟、30 秒长。它可以超级长。我们一些最好的广告，你看了会说：“天哪，这些太丑了。这些广告太糟糕了。”但它们实际上对那些特定受众效果最好，那些可能年纪大一点、技术一点的人。睡眠产品也是一样。如果你在睡眠领域有一个昂贵的产品，你让一个 18 岁的孩子来卖它，为什么你或我会从一个孩子那里买一个 3000 美元的产品？可能行不通。你想从和你说话方式相同、做同样工作、有同样问题的人那里购买。是的，我认为 UGC 适用于任何公司。只是可能你越往上游走，或者你的产品越贵、越小众，就会变得有点难，但关键就是，好吧，我如何找到想为我的产品制作内容的用户？

And I get this question a lot as well from a lot of founders in different businesses reaching out and they'll be like, "Oh, well, I have a dev tool or I'm in the sleep space. I can't make content for for my brand or I haven't had success with UGC." And a lot of times what happens is people mistake UGC for thinking it's just college kids making content, but UGC is user-generated content and if you're a dev tool, your user's probably going to be an older technical person and you can't you can't you can't get by bringing on 18-year-old who isn't technical to talk about your product. And those ads might look a lot different look they might look a lot different. Like for example, our technical ads at Whispire, when you're speaking to like this older demographic who isn't really on Instagram that much or isn't maybe a bit more serious, the more boring and the uglier the ads are, the better they will perform and that can be something as simple as like a screen recording of someone using your product. It could be like a minute, 30 seconds long. Like it can be super long. Like some of our best ads, you would look at them and you'd be like, "Holy cow, these are ugly. These are such bad ads." Um but they actually perform the best for those specific audiences that maybe are a bit older, maybe are a bit more technical. And it's like the same thing for for a sleep product. Like if you have an expensive product in the sleep in sleep niche or industry whatever, um, and you have an 18-year-old kid selling it, why are you or why am I going to buy a $3,000 product from a kid? Probably it's not going to work that way. You want to buy from someone who maybe speaks the same way you do, who works in the same things you do, has the same problems you do. Um, and and yeah, I think UGC works for for any company. It's just the maybe more upstream you go or the more expensive your product is and the more niche it is, it gets a little bit harder, but it's just like, okay, how do I find users who want to make content about my product?

这种意想不到的有效元素，我想是你投放这么多广告的部分原因。你提到你每月做 700、500、1000 个广告。部分原因是为了发现哪些广告有效。

And this unexpected element of what works, um, is part of the reason I imagine you run so many ads. You mentioned you do like 700, 500, 1,000 ads a month. Part of the reason is to discover the ones that are working.

没错。因为广告可以说比自然内容更奇怪。我大概能指出自然内容中什么有效，但有时我会看到一个广告进来，我会想，这是什么鬼？结果它成了表现最好的。所以我认为实验是好的。不要设太高的门槛，比如“哦，如果广告不是这样或那样，我们就不投放”。就像我一年前制作的一些广告， literally 就是一个人使用产品的屏幕录制，顶部有一些文字，9:16，超长视频，它们是我们最好的广告，也是最丑的广告。

Exactly. Yeah, because a- ads I would say is almost weirder than organic content. Like I can kind of put my finger on what works on organic, but sometimes I'll see an ad that comes in and I'm like, what the heck is this? And it ends up becoming the best performer, so that's why I think it's just good to experiment. Don't really have like such a high bar for like, oh, if the ad doesn't work this way or that way, we're not going to run it. Like again, some of the ads that I made a year ago, it's literally like a screen recording of someone using the product with some text at the top, 9 by 16, super long video, and they're our best ads and they're our ugliest ones as well.

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当你联系创作者时，私信是什么样的？

What does the DM look like when you reach out to a creator?

所以，这取决于情况，老实说有不同的方法。很多时候，作为一个品牌，你的私信里已经有很多创作者，或者很多创作者已经关注你了。所以，这实际上是我会开始的首选地方，我们很多早期创作者都来自那里，我们会进入我们的关注列表，查找 UGC 或查找创作者。然后也浏览我们的私信请求，你实际上会遇到很多创作者。从那里开始，他们已经关注你了，他们可能已经喜欢你的产品。所以变得很容易，你可以直接说：“嘿 Lenny，我看到了你的内容。我很喜欢。我很想让你成为我们创作者小组的一员。”我不一定会推销。我还不一定会推销基于绩效的模式，因为这对创作者来说仍然是一个相对较新的事物，很多人一开始持怀疑态度，我理解为什么。但即使在 7 个月前、6 个月前，它更加新颖。所以，即使今天，我仍然不会一开始就大力推销。我只会说：“嘿，喜欢你的内容。很想让你成为我们创作者小组的一员。你有兴趣吗？”从那里，你会得到回复。他们可能会问你更多细节。然后我有一个非常简单的 PDF。我解释项目结构、我们支付多少、我们一些创作者赚多少。然后，我会和他们通电话，说服他们，让他们加入 Discord，给他们 WhisperFlow 代码，然后让他们制作视频。另一种方式是，如果他们不关注我们，而我在做外联，我会直接发私信说：“嘿，我不知怎么看到了你的内容。我很喜欢。我很想让你成为我们 WhisperFlow 小组的一员。这是工具。这是它如何工作。这是链接。”

So, it kind of depends and there's honestly some different ways to go about it. A lot of times as a brand, you'll actually have a lot of creators already in your DMs or a lot of creators that are already following you. So, that's like the number one place I would actually start and a lot of our early creators came from there is we would just go into our following list and look up UGC or look up creators. And then also go through our DM requests and you'll actually like come across a lot of creators. And from there, it's like they already follow you, they probably already like your product. So, it gets really easy and you can just be like, "Hey Lenny, I saw your content. I really enjoyed it. Uh I would love to have you be part of our creator group." And I don't necessarily pitch it. I don't necessarily pitch the performance-based thing yet because it's still a pretty it's still a relatively new thing for creators like hearing this new model and a lot of them are skeptical at first, which I understand why. But even like 7 months ago, 6 months ago, it was even more like new. Um so, even then, like today I still wouldn't start with that and like go straight into pitching super hard. I just be like, "Hey, love your content. Would love to have you be part of our creator group. Are you interested?" From there, you'll get a response back. They'll probably ask you for some more details. And then I have like a PDF that's like super simple. I just kind of explain the program structure, how much we pay, how much some of our creators are making. And then from there, I'll just hop on a call with them, close them, and get them like onboarded in Discord, get them WhisperFlow code, and then get them making videos. And the other way is if they don't follow us and I'm doing outreach, is I'll just send them a DM and be like, "Hey, I have somehow across your content. I really enjoyed it. I'd love to have you be part of our WhisperFlow group. This is the tool. This is how it works. Um here's the link to it.

如果你感兴趣，请告诉我。然后从那里开始，如果他们再次感兴趣，我会向他们推销，这差不多是同一种路线。

Let me know if you'd be interested. And then from there, if they're interested again, I'll pitch them and it's kind of the same sort of route.

这是来自 WhisperFlow 的 Instagram 账号吗？

And this is from the WhisperFlow Instagram account?

有时我会两者都做，因为我自己也是创作者，所以我经常做的一件事，这也是雇佣内容创作者的好处之一。我们在 Whisper 的一些最佳内容招聘都是通过我在 Instagram 故事上发布信息实现的，或者是我们最好的创作者招聘。我会说：“嘿，我正在寻找 UGC 创作者。”只需发一个故事。或者嘿，我正在寻找摄像师。或者嘿，我正在寻找编辑。就像雇佣内容创作者的一个很酷的事情是，如果他们再次制作内容，你只需确保他们制作高价值内容，他们也可以被用作一个非常好的招聘机制。是的，这取决于情况。如果你有一个创作者，我认为效果很好。你显然会得到创作者的面孔，等等。然后，如果你是一个知名品牌，显然如果你的创作者收到像耐克之类的消息，你懂我的意思吗？这非常令人印象深刻，你更有可能得到回复。我认为这取决于情况。

Sometimes I do either or because I also so since I'm a creator myself, I also I a lot of I do which is also the pros of hiring people who are in content. Some of our best hires at Whisper in content have been through me posting on Instagram stories or our best creator hires. I'll be like, "Hey, I'm looking for UGC creators." Just post a story. Or hey, I'm looking for a videographer. Or hey, I'm looking for an editor. Like that's one of the cool things about hiring a content creator. Um if if they make again content and and you just make sure they make high value content is they can also be used as like a very good hiring mechanism. And yeah. It depends. Like if if you have someone who's a creator, I think it works pretty well. Um you obviously you get creator face, whatever. And then also if you're a really well-known brand, obviously if your creator getting a message from like Nike or whatever, you know what I mean? Like it it's very impressive and you're probably more likely to get a response. I think it just depends.

然后好的，所以你私信他们，他们感兴趣，你给他们发送一个概述。在早期，比如说前五个，你说你很快会打电话给他们，只是推销并解释这个项目。那么“下行引导”是什么样的？

And then okay, so you DM them, they're interested, you send them kind of an overview. In the early say the first five, you say you hop on a call pretty quickly and just kind of pitch them and explain the program. What's like downboarding look like?

这些创作者非常习惯于被利用，就像他们所做的一切都是一笔交易。他们制作一个视频，得到报酬，然后再也不和任何人交谈。我们生活在一个数字化的时代，一切都是虚拟的。大多数人在远程工作，大多数创作者在远程工作，他们渴望社区，就像普通人渴望社区一样。我们只是确保从一开始就建立联系，就像最后他们就像朋友一样。我们就像在合作。我不把他们仅仅看作“嘿，一个创作者，我要从中提取一些视频，然后再也不和他说话。”我和他们通电话，就像你说的，我有整个幻灯片，但在进入幻灯片之前，我会问他们关于自己的问题，比如他们如何进入内容创作，为什么喜欢它，就像聊天一样。试着了解他们。然后从那里开始，幻灯片的流程是我有一个介绍幻灯片，我谈论自己。我谈论我作为创作者的背景，这样他们尊重我，知道我不是随便一个家伙在和他们说话。然后从那里，我还会介绍我们的媒体购买员，他是 Eric。向 Eric 致敬。然后从那里我解释产品。然后从那里我解释 Tribe 如何运作。所以我让他们知道从制作视频到被接受再到作为广告运行的过程中可以期待什么。我告诉他们我们每 7 天付款一次，这也是另一个窍门。你想保持创作者的积极性，他们能获得的 dopamine 冲动越高，你早期能给他们越多钱，就越好。所以，是的，我们 7 天付款。我们告诉他们这一点。然后从那里，我们展示一些广告示例，然后我在通话中让他们入职并完全开始。这几乎就像你在完成一笔销售交易。你不想让他们兴奋起来，然后让他们离开，然后你不得不追赶他们。就像你想在时间和他们的时间上非常有策略。所以，我试着与他们见面，介绍自己，让他们入职并开始，这样他们就知道：“嘿，你现在就可以开始制作视频了。”

These creators are very used to just being used and like just it's everything they do is like a transaction. They make a video, they get paid, and they never talk to a person again. And we live in a like day and age where everything is digital, everything's virtual. Most people are working remote, most creators are remote, and they crave community on the same way just like a regular person would crave community. And we just make sure like that we connect from the get-go and like it's like at the end they're just like friends. We're like working together. I don't see them as just like, "Hey, a creator that I'm going to extract some videos from and never talk to again." I get on a call with them, like you said, and I have this whole slideshow, but before I go to my slideshow, I like ask them about themselves, like how they got into content, why they enjoy it, and just like have a conversation. Try to get to know them. And then from there the flow of the of the slideshow is I have an intro slide where I talk about myself. I talk about my background as a creator, so like they respect me and they know I'm not just some random dude talking to them. Um and then from there I'll also intro our media buyer, who's Eric. Shout out to Eric. And then from there I explain the product. And then from there I explain how Tribe works. So I like it I let them know like what they can expect in terms of the flow from them making the video to it getting accepted to it getting run as an ad. I tell them we pay them out every 7 days, which is like another um hack as well. Like you want to keep your creators motivated and the higher the dopamine rush they can get and the more money you can get them early on, the better. Um so, yeah, we pay out 7 days. We tell them that. Then from there, we show them some example ads and then I get them onboarded and fully going on the call. It's almost like you're closing you're closing like a sales deal. You don't want to get them all excited and then you let them get off and then you have to chase them down. It's like you want to be very um strategic with your time and their time. So, I try to like meet them, introduce myself, get them onboarded, and get them going so that they know like, "Hey, you can start making a video right now."

所以，这里的大教训是像对待人一样对待他们。关心他们，帮助他们感觉自己是这件事的一部分，而不仅仅是感觉你没问题，你会赚钱。闭嘴，别担心。你会赚钱的。

So, big lesson here is treat them treat them like humans. Care about them, help them feel like they're part of this thing, not just feel like you're okay, you're going to make money. Just shut up, don't worry about it. You're going to make money.

我认为这实际上也是非常好的 alpha。所以，我认为长期获胜的公司将是与创作者关系最好的公司，因为消息传得很快。如果你是一个对待创作者不好的品牌，不按时付款，或者根本不付款，或者你只是屏蔽他们等等，消息会传开，创作者可能不想和你合作，或者你不会得到最好的条件，或者你不会得到最优质的创作者。所以，我认为我们在不仅仅与创作者，而且与任何外部机构或任何我们合作的人身上关注的一件非常重要的事情是，我们总是希望以极大的尊重对待每个人。嗯，是的，我认为做得最好的公司也会长期获胜。

And I think this is actually really good alpha as well. So, I think the companies that will win long-term are the companies that have the best relationships with creators because words word gets out really fast. And if you're a brand that treats creators bad, doesn't pay on time, doesn't pay them whatsoever maybe or you just block them, etc., word will get out and creators probably won't want to work with you or you won't get the best terms or you won't get the best quality creators. Um so, I think one really big thing we focus on at not even just with creators, but any external agencies or anyone we work with, we always want to treat everyone with a lot of respect. Um and and yeah, I think I think it's the companies that do that the best will will win long-term as well.

启动这个计划的早期团队是什么样的？是只有 Hector 一个人独自运营，还是有更大的团队一起启动？

What does the early team look like to start this initiative? Is it just A Hector that is running this solo or is there a larger team that you'd start with?

老实说，团队相当精简。所以我们的营销团队整体上相当扁平。显然，我们现在在 Wispri 增长得有点快。我想我们现在已经超过了 120 名全职员工，这相当疯狂。因为我加入时，我想我们大概只有四个人。我记得前几天我给 Snae 发了消息。我在办公室，我说：“天哪，我刚才有一刻觉得周围这么多人，这太疯狂了等等，但是的，现在我们团队相当精简，之前甚至更精简，但具体对于 Tribe 来说，要让这样的项目运行起来，你真正需要的只是一个像我这样的人来与创作者沟通，想出新的概念，批准视频，启动一切，然后你需要一个媒体购买员。找到一个既是创意人又是媒体购买员的人相当罕见。我不太喜欢数字，我不是一个数字型的人，我不喜欢盯着 Meta 广告管理器，我听说那很头疼，所以我很高兴我不必做那个，但是的，我们有 Eric 负责媒体购买方面，他构建我们的广告账户等等。

Honestly, it's it's pretty lean. So, our marketing team as a whole is pretty flat. Obviously, we're growing a bit faster now at Wispri. I think we've passed like 120 full-time employees now, which is pretty crazy. Um because I joined I think we were like four at the time. I I remember mess- I messaged Snae the other day. I was at the office and I was like, "Holy cow, like I just had like a a moment where I was like, there's so many people around like this is crazy blah blah but yeah right now we're pretty lean team and we were even more lean before but for tribe specifically to get something like this running all you really need is someone like me to kind of be the comms with creators come up with new concepts approve videos kind of get everything kickstarted and then you need a media buyer it's pretty rare to find someone who's a creative and also media buyer I don't really like numbers that much I'm not really much of a numbers guy and I don't like staring at meta ads manager I've heard it's a headache so I'm happy I don't have to do that but yeah we have Eric on the media buying side of things and he like structures our ad account and everything

所以这个媒体购买员是那种只生活在 Facebook 广告系统中的绩效营销人员吗，或者

So when this media buyer is this kind of like a performance marketing person that just lives in Facebook's ad system or

是的，没错，所以是的，Eric 基本上就生活在我们的媒体购买方面，在 Facebook、LinkedIn、YouTube 等平台上。

Yeah exactly so yeah yeah Eric's basically just lives in our on the media buying side of things on Facebook LinkedIn YouTube etc.

明白了。所以你有点像创意人员，你负责内容供应，然后这个人接手，负责投放广告、监控表现，从而优化支出。明白了。好的。那么早期和后期，你觉得团队里还有哪些重要、有价值的人？

Got it. So you're kind of like the creative, you're like the content supply, and then this person takes it and then is responsible for running the ads, watching performance, so optimizing the spend. Got it. Okay. And then is there anyone else that you find important, valuable on that team early on and even later on?

早期，如果我们回到最初的日子，营销团队是 Daniel，我们的首席营销官，Matt，在 Eric 来之前是我们的增长负责人，然后就是我，作为一个独立创作者，自己制作广告。所以，然后我们时不时有一些外部机构。然后慢慢地我们增加了设计，增加了内部导演，负责制作影片和发布视频。然后我们最近引入了公关。而且即使现在，我认为我们仍然相当精简。我想营销团队可能有 15 个全职人员。我们有创意合作负责人负责影响者。我们有名人人才经理帮助我们签约名人等等。所以即使那样，它仍然相当精简，每个人都是自己领域的专家，而且非常扁平。我们都有自由支配权。我们都做自己最擅长的事。没有真正的没有真正的中层管理。然后我们可怜的 CMO Daniel，他绝对是个传奇，他有一堆直接下属。嗯，所以，我为他的日历感到难过，但是的，这就是结构。非常扁平。没有中层管理者。每个人都只是做自己的工作。

Early, like if we go back to the early early days, the marketing team was Daniel, our CMO, Matt, who was our head of growth before Eric came, and then it was me, just like as a sole creator kind of just making the ads myself. So and then we had some external agencies here and there. And then slowly we added on design, we added on an in-house like director and how to produce films and launch videos. Then we introduced like PR recently. And like even even now, I think we're still pretty lean. I think we might be like 15 people on the marketing team like full-time. We have a creative partnership leads for like influencers. We have a celebrity talent manager that helps us close celebrities and and things like that. So even then it's it's still pretty lean and everyone is like experts in their domain and it's all very flat. We all just have free reign. We all do what we're best at. There's no real There's no really middle management. And then our our poor CMO Daniel, who's an absolute legend, he just had a bunch of direct reports. Um so, I feel sorry for his calendar, but yeah, that's that's kind of how everything is structured. It's like very flat. No middle managers. Everyone just does their work.

这次对话的一个核心要点是，如今做付费广告时，UGC 视频是正确的方式，而不是你自己制作的广告？

Is a core kind of takeaway from this conversation that when you're doing paid today, that UGC videos are the way to go versus your own ads that you're just kind of creating?

所以，你是在比较我以前做的和我们现在的做法吗？

So, are you kind of comparing to like what I was doing versus what we're doing now?

你知道，就像当你想在 Facebook、Instagram、TikTok 上做付费广告时，大多数人认为我制作一个推广产品的视频，或者创建一个广告单元，说“嘿，Whisper Floss 是最好的东西。”而你在这里做的是让其他人制作视频，然后将其作为广告投放。

You know, just like when you think paid ads on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, most people think I create a video promoting my product or create like an ad unit that is, "Hey, Whisper Floss is the best thing." And what you're doing here is you're having other people create the videos and then running that as the ad.

是的。所以，我的看法是，我基本上是一个内部的 UGC 创作者。后来广告支出变得太高，而我只是一个人，我无法制作那么多视频，而且制作广告也一年多了。所以，自然，作为单打独斗，我变得相当疲惫，我想，“好吧，我有技能。我是一个不错的创作者。我也能发现好的创作者。为什么不建立一个团队，作为我自己的延伸？”是的，我们基本上就是这么做的，我们能够更快地扩展，测试更多想法，因为我们有更多的广告支出，我们显然想要更多的概念在运行。而且，一旦你的广告预算相当高，你的广告通常会更快地达到疲劳。尤其是现在有了 Andromeda，广告疲劳甚至更快，因为在我们投放广告的 2024 年之前，我可以让一个广告运行 12 个月，我的意思是，我的产出会少得多，但现在，不仅有了新的更新，而且我们投放的广告支出如此之多，一个广告一旦达到 10 万美元的广告支出，就会死掉，而这可以在一个月或两周、三周内达到。所以我们不断需要更多的产出、更多的数量等等。我认为如果你看我们的广告库，我们可能有 5000 个生命周期广告，目前可能有 800 个在运行，或者类似，或者目前 900 个在运行。这是因为，再次，它们达到疲劳，然后我们必须关闭它们。但是，我们的广告集或广告库并不只充满 UGC 视频。还有很多不同的东西。嗯，是的，从静态图片到高知名度名人/影响者视频，到内部广告，到我们打包成广告的发布视频，到创始人主导的东西。所以那里有很多多样性，基本上，我的意思是，我想只是拥有尽可能多的格式，因为再次，我们有很多广告支出，我们希望多样性越多越好，归根结底。

Yeah. So, the way I look at it is like I was basically an in-house UGC creator. And it got to a point where ad spend was getting too high and like I'm only human and I couldn't I couldn't make that many videos and it was also getting into like a year plus of making ads. So, naturally I was getting pretty burnt out being a one-man show and like I was like, "Okay, I have the skill set. I'm a decent creator. I can spot like good creators as well. Why not just build a team and that's like an extension of myself?" And yeah, that's that's basically what we did and we're able to scale a lot faster, test more ideas since we have more ad spend, we obviously want more concepts running. And also, like once you get to a pretty high budget on ads, your ads are typically going to reach fatigue a lot faster. And especially with Andromeda now, ads reach fatigue even a lot faster cuz before then 2024 when we were running ads, I could have an ad running for 12 months and I mean, my my output would be a lot less, but now an ad with not only the new updates, but also how much ad spend we're running, an ad once it hits like $100,000 in ad spend, will be dead and that can be hit in like a month or 2 weeks, 3 weeks. So, we constantly need more output, more volume, etc. And I think that if you look at our ad library, we might have like 5,000 lifetime ads, and maybe like 800 live currently or something like that, or 900 live currently. And it's because again, they reach fatigue, and then we have to turn them off. But, our ad our ad set or our ad library isn't only full of UGC videos. There's a lot of different things as well. Um and yeah, everything from like statics to like high celebrity {slash} influencer videos to in-house ads to like launch videos that we package as ads to like founder led things. So, there's a lot of variety in there, and it's just just basically I mean, I guess just having as many formats as possible, because again, we have a lot of ad spend, and we want the more variety the better at the end of the day.

好的。所以，这只是付费广告支柱的一个核心腿，就是 UGC。嗯，显然有效。你认为这对每家公司都有效吗？这是大多数 B2B 的事情吗？我不知道。是的，你认为这有效吗？

Okay. So, this is just a a core leg uh to the stool of paid ads is UGC. Uh clearly working. Do you think this will work for every company? Is this something most B2B I don't know. Yeah, does this Do you think this will work?

我认为这对每个人都有效，这就像回到我所说的。只是找到那些能与你想获取的用户对话的用户。归根结底，我们在 Whisper 关注的一件事是，B2B 方面和企业方面都是由个人组成的。如果你能找到一种方法，让你的内容与那些团队中的个人对话，也许你让他们作为单独客户，怎么说呢，单独客户之类的？嗯，下载应用，他们使用它，然后告诉公司里的朋友，然后公司里更多的人开始使用它。然后也许你追逐那些企业客户并真正达成交易。实际上，大多数公司最终都可以这样 approach。并不是说，“哦，X 公司的谁会看我的视频，然后参加企业电话会议，想要成交之类的。”但是，我认为如果你从公司是由人组成的这个角度 approach，你只是这样看，你想，“好的，我如何向这些人销售，这些人会如何回应被销售？”嗯，我认为你只需要超级简单地分解它，你就会说，“哦，是的，这对任何人都有效。”

I think this works for everyone, and it's like it goes back to what I was saying. It's just finding those users that can speak to the users you want to acquire. And at the end of the day, one thing that we look at at Whisper is like the B2B side and the enterprise side is all made up of individuals. And if you can find a way to make your content speak to an individual who's part of those teams, and maybe you get them as like a solo How do you say like a solo customer or whatever? Um to download the app, they use it, then they tell a friend in the company, and then more people in the company start using it. And then maybe you chase down those enterprise clients and actually close a deal. And like, that's realistically how most companies can approach that at the end of the day. And it's not like, "Oh, like who from X company is going to watch my video and like hop on an enterprise call and like want to close or whatever." But, I think if you like approach it from like companies are made up of people, and you just look at it like that, and you think, "Okay, how how do I want to sell to these people, and how would these people respond well to getting it sold to?" Um I think you just have to break it down super simply, and you're like, "Oh, yeah, this would work for anyone."

好的。这有道理。嗯，另外，我听到的是，这可能对产品主导增长、自下而上的产品最有效。不像 Workday 或 Salesforce。更像 WhisperFlow 或 Notion 之类的。太棒了。你知道，如果你想一想，这为什么有效就非常合理。影响者天生就是影响你做事的人。你基本上是让影响者/创作者创建推销产品的内容，然后通过付费广告将它们放入人们的 feed 中，我明白为什么有效，因为他们试图说服人们它有多棒

Okay. That makes sense. Uh also, what I'm hearing though is this is probably most effective for kind of product led growth, bottom up sort of products. Not like a Workday or a Salesforce. More like a Yeah, WhisperFlow or Notion and things like that. Awesome. And you know like if you think about it, it makes so much sense why this would work. An influencer innately is someone that influences you to do something. You're basically getting influencers slash creators to create content that pitches the product and then you put them in people's feed through paid ads and I get why it works cuz they're trying to convince them how awesome it

我也认为一个很好的区别是，我认为这不仅仅是影响者或创作者。我几乎认为没有粉丝的创作者最终会成为品牌更好的投资，因为影响者现在很多时候被视为出卖自己，就像当你看到一个大面孔或大名人推销产品时，你会想，哦天哪，这个人过去 10 年一直在向我推销东西。

I also I also think that a good distinction as well as I think it's not just an influencer or a creator. I almost think that creators with no following end up being better investments for brands because influencers kind of are seen now as sellouts a lot of the time and like when you see a big face or a big celebrity like selling a product, it's like oh my gosh this person has been selling me things like the last 10 years.

我知道她只是为了赚钱，或者他只是为了赚钱，他们并不真诚，而且你不太了解这个人是谁，他们也不出名，没有很多粉丝，如果他们的账号发布这些合作广告，感觉会更真实，所以我想提一下这一点。

I know she's just getting a bag or he's just getting a bag and they're not really genuine and there's something about not really knowing who the person is and they're not famous, they don't have a lot of followers and if you have these partnership ads coming from their account, it just feels a lot more genuine as well, so just want to throw that out there.

他们越不像网红。

The less they look like an influencer.

没错。

Exactly.

他们越不像在试图说服你，而只是像普通人一样谈论你的产品有多棒。我明白为什么这有效。

The less they look like they're trying to convince you and they're just talking like a regular human about how awesome your product is. I get why that would work.

我现在想到的是之前有人做的一项调查，关于你长大后想做什么，对年轻人来说，有些人的答案是创作者、网红。

And like what I think about right now is there's that survey that someone did a while ago of just what do you want to be when you grow up and for young people it was like creator influencer for some.

是的，主播。我觉得很多人说他们想成为主播或直播主播。

Yeah, stream. I think a lot of people were saying they want to be a streamer or live streamer.

是的，而不是宇航员或律师。

Yeah, versus like astronaut or lawyer.

是的。

Yeah.

所以你知道，你描述的是一条职业道路。这是一种赚钱的方式。很多人实际上通过在线创作赚钱。所以对于听众来说，他们可能会想，等等，也许这有一天会成为我的职业，也许我应该探索这种创作者生活。对于正在踏上这条道路的人有什么建议吗？因为对许多人来说，可能会觉得我永远不会像 Hector 那样优秀，或者只是在视频中即兴发挥并看起来有趣。对于试图探索这条道路并做得更好的人有什么建议吗？

And so you know like this is a career path is what you're describing. This is a way you're making money doing this. A lot of people are actually making money being a creator online. So for people listening that are like wait, maybe this could be a career for me someday, maybe I should explore this creator life. Any advice for someone that's embarking on this because for many people it may feel like I will never be as great as Hector or just talking off the cuff on a video and looking interesting. Any advice for someone that's trying to explore this path and do better?

我认为最好的建议就是停止寻求建议。这听起来很傻，但很多时候我有很多朋友联系我，说嘿，我想开始做，这种情况大概过去 3 年一直有，人们会说：“嘿，我想开始。我想像你一样开始制作视频。”我会和他们通电话大约 2 个小时。我给他们发一堆不同的指南、PDF、我做的东西等等，告诉他们如何开始。但他们什么也不做。说到底，如果你是一个在行动之前先问的人，你可能不会成功。即使是我有幸合作过的最优秀的人，很多最著名的播客主、网红或名人，他们很多人也会口吃，他们也不得不重新拍摄，他们有一些特定的方法来重新进入状态，无论是嘴里发出奇怪的声音，还是手部小动作，或者他们有一句反复重复的话，我甚至见过一些创作者，在反复做同样的脚本后开始口吃很多，他们会把笔放在嘴里，张大嘴巴说话并清晰地发音。是这么说的吗？清晰地发音。

I think the best advice would be to stop looking for advice. It sounds dumb but a lot of times I'll have a lot of friends reach out and be like hey I want to get started and I've had this happen for maybe the last 3 years where people are like, "Hey, I want to get started. I want to start making videos like you." And I hop on a call with them for like 2 hours. I send them over a bunch of different guides, PDFs, things I've made, etc. for how they can get started. And they don't do anything with it. And it's like at the end of the day, if you're a person who's going to ask before doing, you're probably not going to succeed. And even the best people I've had the privilege of working with a lot of the most famous podcasters or influencers or celebrities, and a lot of these people also stutter and they also have to refilm things and they have like specific things that they do to lock back in, whether it's weird noises they make with their mouth or they fidget with their hands or they have a phrase they repeat over and over again or I've even seen some creators where they start stuttering a lot after they've been doing the same scripts over and over again and they'll put a pen in their mouth and will open their mouth bigger and talk and enunciate. Is that how you say it? Enunciate the words.

嗯。

Mhm.

嗯，我想更多，然后当他们停下来，把笔从嘴里拿出来时，他们就能更好地发音。所以作为创作者，这是很自然的事情，即使你做了 5 年、10 年、15 年，总会有时候你不得不剪掉视频，或者你会口吃，不得不重新拍摄 10 次，你可能会骂你的相机并关掉它，但就像重新打开并继续拍摄那样，是的，这就是我的建议。就开始做吧，停止寻求更多建议，因为作为创作者，没有比打开相机并发布更好的学习方式了。

Um like I guess more and then when they stop and they take the pen out of their mouth then they were able to pronounce it better. So it's like it's a natural thing as a creator and like even if you're doing this for 5, 10, 15 years, there's going to be moments where you have to cut the video or you're going to stutter and you're going to have to refilm for 10 times and you might cuss out your camera and turn it off but it's just like turn it back on and keep filming sort of thing and yeah, that'd be my advice. Just get started um and stop looking for more advice cuz there's no better way to learn as a creator than just turning on the camera and posting.

我喜欢这个建议。我还听到的是，你不必喜欢你，当你没看到人们做这些事情有多挣扎时。就像你看到这个精致的视频，你不知道他们不得不把笔放在嘴里，是的，没错。

I love that advice. And what I'm also hearing is you don't have to like you when you don't see how much people struggle doing this stuff. Like you see this polished video and you don't know they had to put a pin in their mouth for Yeah, exactly.

或者骂他们的相机。

Or cuss out their camera.

是的。

Yeah.

嗯，就像我在 X 上有点病毒式传播的视频，我想大概是一个 15 分钟的剪辑。在那之前我大概做了两次剪辑。可能花了 30 分钟。然后我做了最后一次，可能又是 30 分钟，然后我把它包装成一个不错的视频。就像我以此为生，过去 7 个月我管理我们的部落群体，我对她了如指掌，但即使如此，我仍然在整理思路和简洁表达方面挣扎，但视频并不完美，但我传达了信息，提供了一些价值，人们喜欢它，是的，我不认为它需要完美。

Um like even my video that went kind of viral on X, like I think it's what? A 15-minute cut. It's probably I did two cuts before that. I would probably take 30 minutes. And then I did that last one which is probably again like 30 minutes and then I package it into a nice video. It's like I do this for a living and I managed our tribe group for the last 7 months and I know her like the back of my hand or whatever and even then I still struggle like going through and putting my thoughts concisely and going through everything but it's not perfect but I put the message out I gave some value and people enjoyed it and yeah I don't think I don't think it needs to be perfect.

听到这个太好了，因为看我的视频，你看起来那么冷静放松，只是坐在那里拿着一个小 iPad 说话，人们看到这个会觉得我永远做不到这么好。所以听到这个真的很有帮助。当我想到开始创作成为内容创作者时，我觉得我需要买一个小毛绒麦克风之类的。你觉得这是第一步。

That's so great to hear cuz watching my video you're just so chill so relaxed just sitting there talking with a little iPad and like how yeah people see that and like I will never be as good at this. So that's really helpful to hear. When I think about starting to create being a content creator I feel like I need to get a little fuzzy mic or something. You feel like the step one.

这是佳能的，这是佳能的麦克风。

It's a Canon of it's a Canon of a mic.

没错。

That's right.

除非你有一个小毛绒麦克风，否则你不是创作者。

You're not a creator unless you have a tiny fuzzy little mic.

是的。

Yeah.

嗯，让我沿着这些思路问你最后一个问题。假设有人说太棒了，我要做这个。我们要致力于这个。我们要招聘。我们要找人来运营。当公司或人们开始走付费 UGC 路线时，你发现的最常见的错误是什么？

Um let me ask you one final question along these lines. Say someone is like amazing I'm going to do this. We're going to commit to this. We're going to hire. We're going to find someone to run it. What are some of the most common mistakes you find companies people make when they're starting on this paid UGC route?

我认为很多时候是人们通常找错了地方，可能会在网上或 LinkedIn 上发布薪资过高或要求过高的职位，最终不会吸引到最优秀的人。比如如果你发布一个职位，说哦这些运营 UGC 活动的人需求超高，我要发布一个 25 万、20 万基本工资、慷慨股权的招聘广告，你最终会吸引到错误类型的人。嗯，就像我加入 Whisper 时，以及 Tuan 加入 Whisper 时，我可以告诉你我们的收入远不及那个。我们是实习生，只是渴望学习和成长的饥饿孩子，而且有一些内容经验。我认为如果你只是认为砸钱并寻找成绩最好、学校最好或经验最好的人就能为你找到最好的运营人选，你将会大失所望。嗯，是的，我会专注于找到一个渴望学习、有拼劲的年轻人，而且你对他们有好的感觉。就像我前几天告诉你的那样，我们第一次通话时，我和 Julia 的第一次通话，她最初领导我们的营销团队，当时只有四个人。

I think a lot of the times is people will typically look in the wrong places and will maybe put out offers online or on LinkedIn or whatever with too high of salaries or too high like I guess like requirements and you're not going to end up attracting the best people like if you put out an offer where you're going to pay I don't know like oh these people who are running UGC campaigns are in super high demand I'm going to put out a job listing for 250k 200k base salary uh generous equity you're going to end up attracting the wrong type of people um like when I joined Whisper and when Tuan joined Whisper I can tell you we were earning nowhere near that um we were interns and we're just hungry kids who wanted to learn and wanted to grow and again had some experience with content and I think if you just think that throwing money out there and looking for someone with the best grades or the best school or the best experience is going to get you the best hire to run this for you you're in for a rude awakening um and yeah I would focus on just finding a scrappy kid who's hungry and willing to learn and like I don't know you just got a good feeling from them like I I was telling you this the other day recently as well the other day our first call so I had a first call with Julia which she was like leading our marketing team initially when there was like four people.

然后我和 Tanay 进行了第二次通话，我记得当时他们正聘请我作为 UGC 创作者。我 19 岁，从未在初创公司工作过，而且我可能赚得不多。我告诉 Tanay：“我想要 Whisper 的股权。”Tanay 笑了，说：“我喜欢你，伙计。”也许说这话很傻，但我觉得这显示了我——我不知道——我很天真，但也充满渴望，我相信这家公司，我想成为公司的一部分。正是这样的线索：一个年轻、天真、渴望的孩子，只想加入、想学习、想成长。所以，不要找错地方，不要看错地方，因为你会吸引错误的人。

And then I had a second call with Tanay, and I remember like my new they're hiring me as a UGC creator. I'm 19 years old. I've never worked in a startup. And I'm probably I was not earning much money, and I told Tanay like I was like, "I want equity in Whisper." And Tanay laughed and was like, "I like you, man." And like maybe it was like a stupid thing to say, but like I think it showed how like I don't know. I was naive, but also hungry and like I believe in the company and I want to be part of the company. And just like cues like that where it's like a young, naive, hungry kid who just wants in and wants to learn and wants to grow. And then yeah, I think don't look in the right place. Don't want to look in the wrong places cuz you're going to attract the wrong people.

你在这方面有几条很棒的推文。一条是说，每个寻找简历最棒的市场营销人员的人，最终都会雇到一个机器人。

You had a couple of awesome tweets along these lines. One is that everyone looking for a marketer with the best resume is going to end up hiring a bot.

是的。

Yeah.

然后另一条非常重要的推文是：我遇到的最成功的创始人、投资者、创作者并不是最有才华的。他们自信得近乎妄想，他们比任何人都努力，他们热爱自己所做的事。

And then the other is this really important tweet that the most successful founders, investors, creators I've met aren't the most talented. They're delusionally confident, they outwork everyone, and they love what they do.

是的，我想这基本上概括了。还有另一条我最近发的、我很有共鸣的推文，是关于招聘的体育视角。运动队——我来自一个竞争非常激烈的体育背景。我在西班牙踢过球，我为拉科鲁尼亚的拉利加青训营踢过球，我在美国踢过 MLS Next，我在大学踢过一级联赛。我们有一套完整的体育队体系：你考察年轻人才，把他们带进来，指导他们，培养他们十年。然后，如果你在西班牙或欧洲，你最终会把他们纳入你的青训营，也许是二队，然后也许把他们卖给顶级俱乐部。或者他们最终成为本土合同球员，加入你的第一队。我认为很多初创公司应该采用这种心态。我觉得很多公司实际上不再做实习项目了。他们认为实习没有价值。而我认为实习是最有价值的事情之一，如果你能找到合适的人，这并不昂贵，也不耗时。嗯，是的，我认为给年轻人一个机会，给他们一些钱去尝试，给他们一些自由去尝试，允许他们失败并继续学习，这是你可以从体育中借鉴的最好的模式之一。显然这行得通——我不知道你是否很熟悉足球，但看看拉明·亚马尔，他刚赢得世界杯，才 19 岁、18 岁。我认为同样的方法可以应用到初创界：找到年轻人才，投资他们，让他们在现实世界获得真正的锻炼，最终他们可能会成为你的 A 级球员。

Yeah. I think that pretty much sums it up. And also another one that I that I resonate with a lot that I that I put out recently was like the the sports outlook on hiring. Sports teams, like I come from a very competitive sports background. I played over in Spain, I played for Real Vigo in La Liga Academy, I played MLS Next in the US, I played Division 1 in college. And like we have all these structures for sports teams where it's like you scout young talent, you bring them in, you coach them, you develop them for 10 years. And then like if you're over in Spain or over in Europe, um you eventually like get them as part of your academy, maybe the second team, and then maybe you sell them to a top club. Or maybe they end up becoming a homegrown contract or and they join like your first team. And it's like I think a lot of startups should kind of adopt that mentality. Like I I think there's a lot of companies that actually don't do internship programs anymore. They don't think they're valuable. And I think they're one of the most valuable things, and if you can find the right people, it's not a very expensive thing to do. It's not very time-consuming. Um and yeah, I think like taking a chance on young on young people and giving them some money to to test things with and giving them some freedom to test things with um and like allowing them to fail and continue learning was like one of the best models I think you can pick up from sports and like obviously it works like I don't know if you're very familiar with soccer but I mean like look at Lamine Yamal like just won the World Cup at what 19 years old 18 years old and I I think that same approach can be applied to to the startup world like find young talent invest in them let them get real reps in the real world and then eventually they'll might be come one of your A players.

我喜欢这个。我也喜欢其中一部分是给他们时间去摸索。

I love that. Uh and I love that also part of this is giving them time to figure it out.

是的，百分之百。

Yeah. 100%

我意识到到目前为止这次对话真正有趣的是，我想我们一次都没提到 AI 作为你工作的一部分，这真的很有趣，因为你知道这是现在所有人都在谈论的。你前几天实际上发了这条推文：最好的市场营销人员对 AI 过敏。谈谈你对 AI 如何融入其中以及 AI 不应如何融入其中的看法。

What's really interesting about this conversation so far I'm realizing is I don't think we've once mentioned AI as a part of this work that you do which is really interesting because it's you know it's it's all anyone talks about these days and you actually had this tweet the other day the best marketers are allergic to AI. Talk about just what you what you think with how AI plays into this and how AI should not play into this.

我只是觉得，总的来说，当你审视很多完成的工作时，甚至看看顶级实验室，他们实际上是让最多人类实际参与特定资产制作的人。也许是的，他们有很多研究自动化了，或者很多不同步骤在内部自动化了，但实际资产的生产——无论是视频、Figma 中的设计、编辑、后期制作等——都是由大量人类团队完成的。我认为这一点无法真正绕过，至少短期内不会，尤其是在我们现在所处的环境中，很多人对 AI 感到反感，谈论它可能很可怕。如果你是一家像 Whisper 这样的 AI 公司，理论上我们让人类做更好的工作，我们不想取代任何人的工作，而是想给他们工具，让他们更高效、做更多工作、听起来更自然、更像他们自己。如果我们另一方面开始制作 AI 垃圾广告、用 AI 网红制作视频、AI 设计、AI 静态图，可能不会得到很好的反响，看起来就不对。当我说这些时，我认为更多是指不要自动化那些将成为人们看到的最终产品的工作。因为我觉得你经常看到这种情况，最终会反噬公司——无论是他们用 Claude 制作的动画，还是他们制作的某种资产，也许有错别字，或者文字乱七八糟，就像你用 ChatGPT 打开时发生的那样。嗯，是的，我认为不值得。风险与回报不成正比。

I just think like overall when you look at a lot of the work done like even like looking at the top labs like they are some of the people that have the most amount of humans actually working on a specific asset and like maybe yes they have a lot of the research automated or a lot of different steps like internally automated but the actual production of the asset whether it comes to the video the design in Figma um the editing the post production etc. it's all done by teams of a lot of humans and I think there's not going to be a real way to get around on that at least not anytime soon and especially in like the environment we're in now where a lot of people are very I guess turned off by AI and it can be a scary like thing to talk about. If you're an AI company like Whisper who in theory we enable humans to do better work we don't want to replace anyone's job want to give them I guess the tools to be able to be more productive to do more work and to sound more naturally and to sound like themselves more naturally. If we on the other side go out and start making AI slop ads and videos with AI influencers and I don't know AI designs and AI statics, it's probably not going to be received really well and it just it looks off and like when I say that I think it goes more towards not automating the work that's going to be the final product that people are looking at. Um, because I think you see it a lot of times like it'll it'll end up blowing back on on the companies where whether it's like an animation that they made with Claude or um, some sort of asset that they made and maybe there's typos or maybe the writing is like all jumbled up like what happens when you do it with with open it with chat GPT or whatever. Um, and yeah, I think it's it's not worth it. Like the risk versus reward is not worth it.

所以我听到的精华是：不要在这项工作中使用 AI。

So the alpha what I'm hearing here is like don't use AI for this work.

是的，尤其是最终输出，特别是创意方面，别人会看到的东西，我认为 AI 还不应该碰。

Yeah, for for the final output especially on the creative side like what other people are going to see I I don't think AI should should touch yet.

这真的很有趣。你知道，感觉每个人都在转向 AI。

That is really interesting. Like, you know, people it feels like everyone's hearing leaning to AI.

是的。甚至我认识的最看好 AI 的人之一，Matt，他现在在 Victor 或 exited growth，他拥有我见过的最多的自动化，但即使如此，最后那 10% 最重要的部分总是有人在终点把关，因为作为一个品牌，你不能牺牲，不能因为某件事搞砸了或出错了就爆掉。是的，我认为每个人——每个人也都在发布大量内容，无论是在 X、LinkedIn、Instagram、YouTube 上，你现在可以用 Claude 制作视频，可以编辑它们，可以制作——叫什么来着？你可以用 AI 制作自己的分身等等，更快地发布内容，有推文的自动化，让它发布新闻文章之类的，并以任何方式转发。

Yeah. Even even even one of the most bullish people on AI that I know, um, Matt who is now at at Victor or exited growth, he has the most automations I've ever seen in the whole wide world, but even then like that last um, like 10% that's the most important always has a human on the endpoint because you can't sacrifice as a brand having something blow up because you had something screw up or come out wrong or or whatever. And yeah, I think with everyone I think with everyone also just shipping so much volume and like whether it be on X, on LinkedIn, on Instagram, on YouTube, like you're able now to make videos with Claude, you're able to to have the edited them, you're able to make um, what's it called? You're able to make like a doppelganger of yourself with AI and and all these different things and get content out faster and have these automations for tweets and have it like post news articles and whatever and retweet it in whatever way.

噪音太多了。就像你说的，如果你真正把重心放在质量而非数量上，少去搞那些花里胡哨的自动化、少为了走量而走量，穿透噪音就会变得非常容易。所以如果你真的有真实价值，把它包装好，而且你发得不多——你带着目的、有真正理由地去发——那么作为品牌或公司，你很容易就能穿透噪音。我觉得另一个很好的例子是我们的 YouTube 频道。我们大概三个月前开始做，发了五条视频就达到了数百万的播放量，YouTube 上有两万或两万一千订阅者，而 YouTube 是最难增长的平台之一。很多人觉得，哦，我们要开 YouTube 频道了，得一周发三条视频。但其实不是。如果你真正投入时间和精力，讲一个好故事，做每件事都有目的，包装得非常好，而且有一个很棒的真人团队去打磨每一个细节，你就会得到非常好的成品，人们也真的能看到你投入的心血。

There's so much noise. Like you're saying, if you actually focus more on the quality and less on the quantity, and less on building all these crazy automations and hitting volume just for volume's sake, it gets so easy to cut through the noise. So if you actually have real value, you package it well, and you post—not a lot—you post with purpose and for an actual reason, you can cut through really easily as a brand or as a company. I think another good example of this is also our YouTube channel. We started it around—what—three months ago, and five YouTube videos in, we're at millions and millions of views, 20,000 or 21,000 subscribers on YouTube, which is one of the hardest platforms to grow. A lot of people think, oh, we're starting a YouTube channel, we need to post three videos a week. And it's like, no. If you actually put in the time and effort, and you tell a really good story, and you do everything with purpose, and you package it really well, and you have a really good team of humans actually touching everything in there, you get a really good end product, and people can actually see the effort you put into it.

这正好是我要聊的方向，这也可以作为我们最后聊的一条线——就是另一个杠杆，我不知道你是不是就叫它创始人驱动的增长，还是——

That's actually where I was going to go, and this could be our final thread to chat through—just this other lever, which is, I don't know if you just call it founder-led growth, or—

对，创始人驱动的内容。

Yeah, founder-led content.

创始人驱动的内容。给我们讲讲这个增长机会，你看到了什么——通过创始人驱动的内容为你的产品驱动增长的机会。

Founder-led content. Just give us a sense of that growth opportunity, what you're seeing there—the opportunity to drive growth for your product through founder-led content.

对，我觉得这也和我们刚聊的内容相关——现在 AI 太多了、广告太多了、公司也太多了。归根结底，这又回到内容、创作者和人身上。说到底，人是向人买东西的，人是向人投资的。我觉得有一个创始人能把自己的脸露出来、能对着镜头讲话、能用在广告里、能用来讲故事，会让公司和产品显得有人情味得多。当你比较两个产品时——甚至从我自己的经历来说，如果我关注了，比如说，我关注了 Represent 的创始人 George Heaton，他有一个服装品牌。然后我又看到另一个服装品牌的广告，我会更愿意买 George 的产品，因为我知道他是怎么工作的。我知道他的日常。我知道他是什么样的人。我知道他代表什么。我知道他为公司有多努力、真正投入了什么。我觉得人们真的很欣赏这一点，而且在这个如此数字化的时代，能够和产品背后的创始人建立连接。你不仅创造了超级粉丝——那些已经在用你产品的人现在也爱上了你——你还带来了这一群从未见过你产品、不太认识你的人，然后慢慢地他们开始喜欢你发布的内容。他们开始认同这个使命。他们开始认同这家公司。然后他们真的去试用产品。这是一种长周期的打法——一种你必须做的长期布局，它是一种投资，因为你不能刚开个 YouTube 频道或创始人品牌就立刻向人推销，因为人们会直接关掉，觉得，好吧，我不想再参与这个了。但如果你只是提供大量价值，你过度分享、超额交付，你打开大门让人看到文化是什么样的、你在构建什么，人们真的很欣赏，你让他们认同并放下戒备。然后也许一年后，我们才真正来一次软性推销。也许我们会说，嘿大家，这里有些支持——感谢你们让我们达到 10 万订阅，只想发个优惠码，等等。然后人们就会想要支持你。所以我觉得，在这个人人都想立刻增长、一切都超快、从一开始就优化一切的世界里，这些也许在当下没有直接关联的频道，最终会成为最好的长期布局，也是最好的品牌建设布局。

Yeah, I think it also ties into what we just talked about—so much AI, so much ads and companies, etc. And at the end of the day, it also ties back to everything in content, creator, and people. At the end of the day, people buy from people, people invest in people. And I think having a founder who can put his face out there, can talk on camera, you can use in ads, you can use to tell the story, it makes the company and the product feel that much more human. When you compare two products—even from my own experience, if I follow, I don't know, let's say I follow George Heaton, who's the founder of Represent, he has a clothing brand. And then there's another ad that I see for a clothing brand, I'm much more likely to buy the product—George's product—because I know how he works. I know his routine. I know the type of person he is. I know what he stands for. I know how hard he works for his company and what he actually puts into it. And I think people really appreciate that, and again, in such a digital age, being able to connect with the founder behind the product. You not only create superfans—people who already use your product but now also love you—you also bring in this new group of people who have never seen your product, they don't really know who you are, and then slowly they start to like the content you're putting out. They start to buy into the mission. They start to buy into the company. And then they actually try the product. And it's this long-horizon type play—I don't know, this long-term play that you have to make, and it's an investment, because you can't just start a YouTube channel or a founder-led brand and instantly start selling at people, because people are just going to switch off and be like, okay, I don't want to be part of this anymore. But if you just give a lot of value, you overshare, you overdeliver, and you just open up the doors into what the culture is like, what you're building, people really appreciate that, and you get them to buy in and drop their guards. And then maybe a year in, we actually maybe have a soft sell. Maybe we have like, hey guys, here's some support—thanks for getting us 100,000 subscribers, just want to drop this code, blah blah. And then people want to support you. So I think again, in this world where everyone's just trying to get instant growth and everything's super fast and optimize everything from the start, these channels that maybe don't have any direct correlations in the present moment end up being some of the best long-term plays and also brand-building plays.

做这种创始人驱动的内容时，哪些角度或故事似乎效果比较好？是那种“这是我们公司的故事”吗？

What are some of the angles, slash stories, that seem to work well when you're doing this sort of founder-led content? Is it like, here's the story of our company?

对。

Yeah.

这里面有什么门道吗？

Is there anything there?

我们在 Whisper 是这样想的——在 Whisper，说实话在任何公司都一样——每家公司都会有某种故事或某种正在为之努力的使命。对我们 Whisper 来说，就是达到 10 亿日活跃用户。那就是一切——我们在 Whisper 做的每件事都是为了朝那个目标前进。当我们看我们制作的内容时，一切都必须回扣到那个故事上。这几乎就像你在打造一部 Netflix 剧集，每一集显然都会不同，但都回扣到 overarching 的主题上。无论你是在做医疗、开发工具还是别的什么，作为公司你都会在追寻某种使命。你想带着人们一起踏上这段旅程。如果你把这一点贯穿到每一集、每一条 LinkedIn 帖子、每一条 X 帖子——显然每个平台的格式和表达方式都不同——但如果你把这一切串起来，它就能带着大家一起走上这段旅程，也让人更容易理解，也更容易在此基础上继续构建，因为你会觉得，好，这就是愿景，这就是我们在构建的东西，而每一步是如何真正带我们走向那里的。这是我们的使命。它几乎就像是产品路线图或公司实际发生的事情的一种实体呈现——向世界展示它，高潮、低谷、挣扎，一切。这就是我们在 Whisper 的思考方式，也是我认为其他公司应该采用的思考方式。

So the way we kind of thought about it at Whisper is—at Whisper, honestly, at any company—every company is going to have some sort of story or some sort of mission that they're building towards. For us at Whisper, it's getting to 1 billion daily active users. And that's everything—everything we do at Whisper is to get towards that goal. And when we look at the content we make, everything needs to play back into that story. It's almost like you're building this Netflix series where each episode is obviously going to be different, but it all ties back into the overarching theme. Whether you're building in medicine or dev tools or whatever it is, there's going to be some sort of mission that you're chasing as a company. And you want to bring people along for that ride. And if you tie that into every episode or into every LinkedIn post, every X post—obviously the formatting and the messaging is different on every platform—but if you tie all of this together, it brings everyone along for the journey, and it makes it a lot easier to grasp, and also a lot easier to build off of, because you're like, okay, this is the vision, this is what we're building towards, and this is how each step actually leads us to that. It's our mission. It's almost like a physical representation of a product roadmap or what's actually happening to the company—showing it on display to the world, the ups, the downs, the struggles, everything. That's kind of how we think about it at Whisper, and how I think other companies should think about it as well.

这建议太棒了。基本上就是有一个北极星，一个你在追寻的北极星指标。

That's awesome advice. Basically, have a North Star, like a North Star metric that you're chasing.

对。还有通往那里的旅程，以及你学到的东西。

Yeah. And the journey there, and things you're learning.

那些令人意外的东西。我们会把大家引向那个频道，让他们了解你们在那里实际在做什么。

Things that are surprising. And we'll point people to the channel to give them a sense of what you're actually doing there.

对，就是 Tanay Kothari，对，我们就在上面记录一切——那些剧集。我们基本上什么都做了，从展示我们如何发布新产品 Note Taker，到 Tanay 去印度置办婚礼用品，还有远程工作以及他如何平衡这些和与 Sahaj 的关系，再到创始人一周的生活。

Yeah, it's just Tanay Kothari, and yeah, we just document everything on there—the episodes. We've basically done everything from showing how we launched our new product Note Taker, to Tanay going to India and doing wedding shopping, and also working remote and how he balances that and his relationship with Sahaj, to just a week in the life of a founder.

我们还做了一次白板讲解，我和 Tanay 聊了聊。所有这些不同的形式可能感觉不同、看起来也不同，但它们最终都朝着 Whisper 正在构建的更大愿景迈进。

We also did a whiteboard breakdown where I spoke with Tanay. And it's like all these different formats that all might feel different and look different, but they end up building towards this bigger vision of what Whispers building towards.

我想当你开始做 Whisper Flow 时，已经有一些内在的兴趣了。就像一家公司，人们看到它时，他们会说：‘哦，我想要。’

I imagine there's already some innate interest in Whisper Flow by when you started it. It's like a company people when they see it, they're like, 'Oh, I want to.'

所以，可能有一点像：你无法从一开始就做到那样，因为没人关心你学到了什么，因为还没人关心你的公司。

So, there's probably a bit of like you can't start that from the beginning when no one cares about what the no one cares what you've learned cuz no one cares about your company yet.

不过，我真心认为你可以开始做。但也许这让我们处于稍微更好的位置，但我的意思是，有些创始人的品牌没有 Whisper 那么大，他们也通过个人品牌内容取得了成功。再说，这就像是进入实际品牌的一个入口。还有什么比通过一个讲述自己故事并获得价值的人更容易让人接触呢？

I honestly think you can start it though. But like maybe it put us in a bit better of a position, but I mean there's founders who don't have as brands as big as Whisper who have found success with personal brand content. And again, it's like a gateway into the actual brand. And it's like what easier way to make that accessible than through a person who's just telling their story and getting value.

有趣的是，这只是另一个，比如说，增长的 alpha 机会，即创始人以非常引人入胜的方式分享他们的故事。

And so interestingly, this is just another, let's say, alpha opportunity to grow, which is the founder sharing their story in a really compelling way.

而且你会发现一切也开始串联起来，因为你在有机渠道出现的地方越多，与客户的接触点越多，付费广告的成本就会越低。因为什么呢？我认为一个客户，一个人需要看到一家公司的内容大约七次，才会真正购买。如果你能在 YouTube 长视频上触达他们，由于是长视频平台，会建立很多信任，然后你还在发布创始人的 Instagram Reels。你还在 LinkedIn 上发布。那么当他们看到第一个广告时，他们就会转化。所以我认为这些有机渠道与付费广告是相辅相成的。你激活的越多、运行的越多，所有平台上的转化成本就越低。

And you see like everything starts to tie in as well because the more places you show up organically and the more touch points you have with the customer, the cheaper it's going to get when it comes to paid because what is it? I think a customer needs to a person needs to see a piece of content of a company like seven times before they actually make a purchase. If you're able to hit them on YouTube long form, which is a bunch of trust built up since it's a long form platform and then you're also posting Instagram reels from the founder. You're also posting on LinkedIn. Then when they get to my on the first ad they see, they're going to convert. So like I think these organic channels work hand in hand with paid. Like the more that you have activated and the more you have running, the cheaper all the conversions get across all platforms.

然后你的付费平台就获得了那次转化的功劳。

And then your paid platform gets credit for that conversion.

没错。

Exactly.

最后我想简要讨论一件事。你有一个很棒的视频，分享了做创始人主导内容所需的团队是什么样的。我简要分享一下，因为我认为这对人们来说非常重要。我会指向那个视频，你可以在那里深入了解。基本上，是一个内容负责人、一个为你拍摄的摄像师、一个负责包装的 YouTube 团队，以及一个负责制作短片的短形式编辑。

A final thing I just want to talk through briefly. You had this awesome video where you share what the team looks like to do founder-led content. I'll briefly share cuz I think this is really important for people. I will point to the video where you go deeper. Basically, it's a head of content, a videographer to film you, a YouTube team to package it, and short form editor to take it and create clips.

是的，没错。

Yes, exactly.

内容负责人，会是你吗？比如你也是那个做 UGC 付费内容的人吗？

The content person, would that be you? Like are you that person also doing the UGC paid stuff?

是的，是的，是的。所以，我是内容负责人，这就是为什么如果你找到一个懂内容的年轻人，他们基本上可以做任何事情，无论是自然流量还是付费内容。这就是为什么找到一个有粉丝的人也很重要，因为再次强调，我懂得如何建立粉丝群，我现在也知道如何建立团队，有趣的是，就像我之前提到的，我团队中的每个人，无论是做 UGC 还是做创始人主导内容团队，我都是从我的 Instagram 快拍中招聘的。我找到我们的摄像师的方式，他 24 岁。我在我的 Instagram 快拍上发布。我想那是五月，就在我大学毕业之后。我发布了一个在旧金山寻找全职摄像师的帖子。如果你合适就向上滑动。我大概有，我不知道，80 人在我的快拍上回复。然后从那里，有一个叫 Alex 的孩子。他当时在澳大利亚。他是一个美国人在澳大利亚度假。他看起来非常合适，我们让他在 3 天通知内飞到旧金山，然后他就开始工作了。然后 YouTube 代理机构也一样。我们通过 Instagram 认识，现在他们是我的一些好朋友，所以通常最好的社交人才你也会在社交平台上找到。差不多就是这样。

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So Yeah, so I'm the head of content and that's why if you find a young person who understands content, they can basically do anything whether it's organic, whether it's paid. And that's why it's important to find someone with a following as well because again, I understand how to build a following and I know how to build a team now and the funny thing is like how I was mentioning previously is like every person that's part of my team, whether it be for UGC or whether it be for the founder-led content team, I hired them from my Instagram stories. The way I got our videographer, he's 24 years old. I posted on my Instagram story. I think it was in May, like right after my college graduation. I posted looking for a videographer full-time in San Francisco. Slide up if you're the right fit. I probably had like I don't know, 80 people reply on my story. And then from there, there was this kid named Alex. He was in Australia at the time. He was an American like vacationing in Australia. And he seemed like a great fit and we flew him out to San Francisco like on 3-day notice and we got him started. And then same for the YouTube agency. We met through Instagram and now they're some of my close friends, so it's like typically the best social people you also find on social platforms. Sort of how it goes.

拥有观众就是有这么多好处。这是我们要从中获得的胜利。

There's just so much win from having an audience. It's a win we're going to take away from that.

100%。

100%.

从你的故事中。呃，好的，那么你在视频中分享的最后一个花絮，我们将分享的是，你有这个内容负责人，有 Hector，有拍摄的摄像师，有 YouTube 团队和短形式。你实际上分享了 YouTube 包装团队。如果你必须选择哪个需要更强，你发现 YouTube 团队需要比视频质量更重要。

From your story. Uh okay, so one last tidbit you shared in this video that we'll share is so you have this head of content, there's Hector, there's someone filming videographer, there's YouTube team short form. You actually shared the YouTube packaging team. If you had to kind of pick which needs to be stronger, you found the YouTube team needs to is is more important than even the quality of the video.

是的，YouTube 通常是最难做的平台之一，这就是为什么当你说 Instagram 或 YouTube 时，我 backtrack 了，我说：‘实际上，YouTube 非常重要。’而且那实际上也是我开始的地方。我看到了制作 YouTube 视频需要投入多少。就像不是哦，你制作一个视频，发布它，放一个缩略图和一些图片，然后就好了。归根结底，我喜欢这样想：你可以有一个杰作般的视频。你可以制作一部好莱坞级别的电影。但如果你放了一个糟糕的缩略图和一个糟糕的标题，不能引起人们点击的兴趣，没有人会知道你的视频有多好。所以你可能投入了所有的时间、金钱、精力和努力来制作这个杰作般的视频，但如果你不了解 YouTube 如何运作以及它实际上如何获得最高排名，你就不会得到你想要的结果。这就是为什么我认为 YouTube 方面如此重要，因为它不仅仅是缩略图，不仅仅是点击率，不仅仅是标题、观看次数或平均观看时长。它还涉及讲故事、节奏、如何包装、开场，缩略图需要与视频相关联，实际上需要有某种回报，因为如果你不这样做，那么你的流失率会更高，人们不会坚持看完视频。而且你的 YouTube 团队越好，短形式方面就越容易，因为通常你用于短形式的人可能不那么，我猜他们不那么投入，因为他们通常有很多客户，而且他们也在海外。比如我们的很多短形式编辑来自德国。我们在罗马尼亚也有一个，我想。然后在澳大利亚有一个。他们是非常优秀的短形式编辑，但他们再次想要获得大量点击。所以，他们不会那么关注实际的故事讲述。他们在片段选择上不会那么好。所以，如果我发送给他们 40 小时的素材，我可能不会得到最好的片段。

Yeah, YouTube is generally one of the hardest platforms, which is why when you said Instagram or YouTube, I backtracked and I was like, 'Actually, YouTube is very important.' And that's actually where I started as well. And I saw how much goes into making YouTube videos. Like it's not just oh, you make a video, you post it, and you put a thumbnail and some sort of picture, and then you're good. It's like at the end of the day, the way I like to think about it is you could have a masterpiece of a video. You can make a Hollywood production movie. But if you put a bad thumbnail and a bad title that doesn't intrigue people to click on it, no one's actually going to know how good your video is. So you might have invested all this time, all this money, all this energy and effort into making this masterpiece of a video, but if you don't understand how YouTube works and how it's actually going to rank the highest, you're not going to get the results you want. And that's why I think the YouTube side is so important because it's not only a thumbnail, it's not only the click-through rate, it's not only the title, the watch or the average view duration. It's also like the storytelling, the pacing, how you package it, the intro, how like the thumbnail needs to tie into the video and there actually needs some needs to be some sort of payoff because if you don't, then you're going to have more of a drop-off rate and people aren't going to stick along to actually watch the video. And like the better your YouTube team is, the easier it makes it for the short form side because typically the people that you're using for short form maybe aren't as I guess they're not as committed because they typically have a lot of clients and they're overseas as well. Like a lot of our short-form editors are from Germany. We have one as well in Romania, I think. And then one in Australia. And they're really good short-form editors, but they again want to get a lot of clicks out. So, they're not going to pay as much of attention to the actual storytelling. They're not going to be that good with the clip selection. So, if I send them 40 hours of footage, I might not get back the best clips.

而如果我的 YouTube 团队在后期制作上非常出色，他们剪出一个超级好的视频，那么我可以把它发给我的编辑，就像一张白纸，没有标题、没有音乐等等。他们可以只剪出最精彩的部分，做成非常好的短视频。这就是为什么我说长视频团队是最重要的部分。它也是获得最多点赞的。YouTube 视频可以持续播放很久很久。即使在我自己的个人频道上，我有一个视频已经上线 5 年了。我想大约一年前，它大概有 4 万次观看。现在有 60 万次观看。YouTube 视频在所有平台中半衰期最长，这真的很疯狂。比如我们在 Today 频道上发布的一些视频，几年后可能会有 500、600 万次观看。这就是 YouTube 酷的地方。它就像一项长期投资。

Whereas if my YouTube team is really good in the post-production, they cut a super good video, then I can send that to my editors in like a clean slate with no titles, no music, etc. And they can just cut the best moments and make it into like really good short-form pieces. And that's kind of the reason why I say the long-form team is the most important part. And it's also the one that has the most likes. Like YouTube videos can run on for ages and ages. Like even on my own personal channel, I've had a video that's been up now for like 5 years. And I think like a year ago, it was at like what, 40,000 views. Now it's like 600,000 views. And it's like YouTube videos have so like the longest half-life out of any platform and it's truly insane. Like some of the videos we post on today's channel might be like 5, 6 million views in a few years. And that's what's cool about YouTube. It's like a long-term investment.

我在 YouTube 上也发现了非常相似的事情。它是一个奇妙的平台。它可能是唯一一个能大规模让新人们发现你的平台。

I've discovered very similar things with YouTube. It's a wondrous platform. It's maybe the only platform where you can discover where new people discover you at scale.

是的，这很疯狂。就像很多这些平台，相信我，我喜欢制作内容，但有时会有点让人泄气，比如“哦，你拍了一个内容，发布了。你得再做一个新的。”当然，在 YouTube 上你也必须这样做，但长期来看你也会收获那些回报。不像在 Instagram 上，你发布一个视频，48 小时后它就死了。而 YouTube 视频，你投入了很多努力，我们看看 Today 视频的一些图表，即使已经发布了 3 个月，我们在过去 48 小时里仍然获得 1 万次观看。它仍然在为我们工作。它仍然在获得新的眼球和新的客户。所以，是的，YouTube 很棒。我想，随着你有这么多播客，你从多年前获得的观看量也相当惊人。

Yeah, it's insane. And it's like a lot of these platforms, I like trust me, I enjoy making content, but sometimes it's like a bit demotivating when it's like, "Oh, you filmed one piece of content, you posted it. You got to make the new one." And so, obviously with YouTube you have to as well, but you reap those rewards as well long-term. It's not like on Instagram where you post a video and in 48 hours it's dead. It's like a YouTube video, you put a lot of effort into it, and we look at some of the charts on today's videos, and like we're still getting 10,000 views in like the last 48 hours, even though it's been like 3 months since it's been posted. Like it's still working for us. It's still getting new eyeballs and new customers. So, yeah, YouTube is amazing. I assume also with how many podcasts you have as well, like the amount of views you're getting from like years and years back or whatever is pretty insane.

是的，观看那些随着时间推移排名上升的视频很有趣。我请过 Elizabeth Stone 上播客。她是 Netflix 的首席产品技术官，她慢慢爬上了排行榜，现在她就在第一名后面。她还在爬，接近第一名，所以你以为这些视频卡在那个数字上，但它们只是继续前进。就像这样，突然就这样了，你会说哦，我没想到。我不知道。我没有很多那种突然拐点的情况，但它确实在增长，你会说哇，我不知道它还在增长。

Yeah, it's fun to watch videos that have kind of climb the ranks over time. I had Elizabeth Stone in the podcast. She's C P T O at Netflix and she slowly has climbed the charts to She's right behind number one now. She's like climbing on She's approaching number one and so like you think these are like stuck at that number but they just keep going going It's like this and all of a sudden it just goes like this and you're like oh I did not expect that. I don't know. I don't know. I don't get a lot of those where it's just inflecting but it it does grow and it's like wow I did not know that was still growing and

是的。

Yeah.

总之，Hector，这太棒了。在我们进入非常激动人心的闪电轮之前，你还有什么想分享的，或者想强调并留给听众的吗？

Anyway, Hector, this was incredible. Before we get to our very exciting lightning round, is there anything else that you want to share or anything else you want to kind of double down on and leave listeners with?

我想我的最后一点，我经常提到，就是我会敦促其他创始人给年轻人才一个机会，是的，找到那些人，相信他们，信任他们，给他们机会，是的，他们不仅会成为你最好的 A 级员工，而且他们对你的忠诚度也会非常惊人，无论他们留在你的公司还是继续做其他事情，他们总是会在那里帮助你，或者帮助你引进其他年轻人才，或者在事情没有新的 alpha 时引导你走向正确的方向。是的，我非常感激 Tanay、Daniel 和整个 Vista 团队给我机会，我想没有比这更好的地方了，我永远感激，或者随便你怎么说，但我只是非常感激被给予的机会。

I guess my last point which I mentioned a lot is like I would just urge other founders out there like give a chance like young talent and yeah, just just find those people, believe in them, trust in them, give them opportunities and yeah, like not only will they turn into some of your best A players but also the amount of loyalty they will have to is quite incredible and whether they stay at your company or they go go on to do other things like they will always be there to help you or help you bring in other young talent or guide you in the right direction when things when not new alphas out there and yeah, I'm super grateful to Tanay and Daniel and the whole Vista team for like taking a shot on me and there's no better place I think I could have I could have landed and I'm like forever in debt or however you should say that but I'm just super grateful for the the opportunity I was given.

太美了。那么，我们到了非常激动人心的闪电轮。我有五个问题问你。你准备好了吗？我见过这些。我在播客里见过这些。不会意外。好的，我们开始。第一个问题，你发现自己最常向别人推荐的两三本书是什么？

That's beautiful. Well, with that we've reached our very exciting lightning round. I've got five questions for you. Are you ready? I've seen these. I've seen these in the in the in the podcast. Won't be a surprise. Okay, here we go. First question, what are two or three books that you find yourself recommending most to other people?

我要给一本书。我要给一本非常好的书，可能有点老套，但 Naval Ravikant 的《Almanack》。我记得大约两年前或一年半前读过。那时我确定我想做内容，但我不明白为什么它重要或为什么它如此重要，我第一次读的时候，没太明白。然后我给了自己一些时间，事情开始像书里说的那样对齐，他怎么说，媒体是最好的杠杆形式之一，因为你不需要请求许可，它是无需许可的杠杆，你只需要制作东西并放到互联网上，它就会继续为你工作。我开始看到这种复利效应，随着时间推移，我把自己展示出来，这是一本我不断回来读的书。我最近也给我弟弟买了一本。这是我总是与朋友分享并传递给他们读的东西。我觉得它也给年轻人很多方向，在这个疯狂的世界里，所以我知道你说那是我最喜欢的书之一。

One of my I'm going to give one book. I'm going to give one really good book which might be a cliche one but Naval Ravikant's Almanac. I remember reading that about two years ago or maybe a year and a half ago. And it was like kind of in this moment where I wasn't like I was sure I wanted to do content, but I also didn't understand why it was important or why it mattered so much and like I read it the first time, didn't really make that much sense to me. And then I like gave me some time and then things started to like line up like it said it kind of in the book and like how how how does he say like media is like one of the best forms of leverage because you don't have to ask for permission, it's permissionless leverage and you can just make stuff and put it out in the internet and it will continue to work for you. And like I started to see that compounding effect over time of like me putting myself out there and it's a book I continue to find myself coming back to and reading. I bought it for my little brother as well recently. And it's like something I'm always sharing with friends and always passing on to them to read as well. And I feel like it gives direction a lot to like young people as well in this crazy world that we live in so I know you say that's one of my favorite books I've read.

是的，我经历了他在 Twitter 上分享这些深刻建议的时代，然后他慢下来了，我喜欢有一本书收集了所有这些。我喜欢这一点。很多建议你看到时觉得“嗯，还行”，然后回想起来“哇，他太对了”。

Yeah, and I've all went through this era of just sharing this profound advice on Twitter and then he kind of slowed down and and I love that there's a book that collects it all. And I love that. So much of advice you to like you see it and you're like yeah, it's fine and then you think back to wow, he was so damn right.

你读过那本叫什么《Ego is the Enemy》吗？

Have you have you read uh what's it Ego is the enemy?

那是一本书还是他的一句话？

Is that a is that a book or is that one of his lines?

不，那是一本新书。我想它叫类似……我只是想知道你读过没有，因为我有兴趣读。我正要买。我需要去书店。这不是波多黎各唯一的书店。但是的，我在找一本新书，所以如果有人想在视频下留言……

No, it's a it's a new book. I think I think it's called something like I was just wondering if you read it because I was interested in in in reading it. I was about to buy it. I need to go to a bookstore. It's not the only bookstore in Puerto Rico. But yeah, I'm looking for a new book so if anyone wants to drop some comments on the video

好的。亚马逊送货到波多黎各吗？

Okay. Does Amazon deliver to Puerto Rico?

是的，但有点……需要时间，住在岛上。一切都慢得多，多巴胺刺激更少。你没有 24 小时送货。

Yes, but it's like a bit it takes it takes a while living on an island. Everything is a lot lower lot slower less dopamine rush. You don't get 24-hour delivery.

我喜欢。好的，下一个问题。你最近有最喜欢的电影或电视节目吗？你真的很喜欢的那种。

I love that. Okay, next question. Do you have a favorite recent movie or TV show you have really enjoyed?

我刚和女朋友看了 Elizabeth Holmes 的电影。是的，我不会剧透，但哇。那真是一部好电影。

I just watched the Elizabeth Holmes movie with my girlfriend. Yeah, I'm not going to spoil it but wow. It was a really good movie.

有人从预告片里分享的一件事，这不是剧透。

One thing that someone shared from the trailer, this is no spoiler.

呃，当他在那个预告片里，他们互相盯着对方，他有点把舌头放进嘴里，嘴巴在做一些有趣的动作。

Uh when he's you know that trailer when they're kind of staring at each other and he kind of puts his tongue in his mouth like his mouth is kind of doing something funny.

是的。

Yeah.

呃，原来当他试图不笑或只是不想出戏时，他会把舌头抵住臼齿，用力压住以阻止自己笑。怎么样？

Uh he turns out when he's trying not to laugh or just get break character, he puts his tongue against his molars and just presses against them to keep himself from laughing. How about that?

我不知道这个。是的。但没错，这是一部好电影。我喜欢它。

I did not know that. Yeah. But yeah, it was a good movie. I liked it.

太棒了。好的，下一个问题。你目前最喜欢或觉得最有趣的 AI 产品是什么？呃，最好不是 WhisperFlow。

Epic. All right, next question. Favorite slash most interesting AI product you're using right now. Uh ideally not WhisperFlow.

老实说，我得说，我前几天在你的帖子下评论了，Miso。我不知道。你最终下载了吗？

Honestly, I got to get I commented on your post the other day, Miso. I don't know. Did you end up downloading it or not?

我只是试着查看了一下。它像是一个旅行工具，对吧？

I just tried to check it out. It's like a travel tool, right?

是的，它是一个旅行代理，我经常旅行。我想今年到目前为止我已经有大约 55 或 60 次航班了。

Yeah, it's a travel agent, and I travel a lot. I think I have like 55 flights or 60 so far this year.

天哪。

Jeez.

呃，大约 89,000 英里，旅行一直是我不会期待的事情，因为预订航班和其他一切都很累人。呃，我最近在他们于 X 上发布时发现了这个产品，我在 Instagram 上私信了创始人，我说：“哟，把我从等待名单上弄下来。我想试试这个。”自从我下载它以来，现在已经大约 3 个月了。我无法停止使用它并向朋友推荐。举个例子，前几天我睡过了闹钟，错过了从 PR 到 SF 的航班。我醒来后给 Miso 发了短信。我说：“嘿，我错过了航班。你能帮我订下一班吗？”我不需要做任何其他事情。它处理了一切，在大概 2 小时内为我预订了下一班航班。我只是放松了一下，不需要支付任何额外费用。呃，是的，它就像我试过的最好的旅行代理。呃，显然 Instinct 是一个好的代理，但我认为在旅行方面它没有那么快。Miso 的另一个酷之处是他们在后端有真人可以升级处理事情。比如如果代理卡住了，他们与每家主要航空公司有直接联系，他们可以升级处理并为你解决。所以，它就像救星。我可以直接发短信说：“嘿，我想要一个航班。”它知道，然后它会发给我，我会在 2 分钟内预订好。

Um like 89,000 miles, and traveling is always something I'm like not looking forward to because it gets pretty tiring like having to book the flights and everything. Um and I recently came across this product when they launched on X, and I DM'd the founders on Instagram, and I was like, "Yo, get me off the wait list. Like I want to try this out." And ever since I downloaded it, it's now been like 3 months. Like I can't stop using it and recommending it to friends. And like just an example, like the other day, I slept through my alarm, and I missed my flight to SF from PR. And I texted I woke up. I texted Miso. I was like, "Hey, I missed my flight. Can you get me on the next one?" And I didn't have to do anything else. Like took care of everything, booked me on the next flight in like 2 hours. I just chilled, didn't have to pay anything extra. Um Yeah, it's like it's like the best travel agent I've tried before. Um like obviously Instinct is is a good agent and everything, but I don't think for travel it's anywhere as fast. And then what's also cool about Miso is they have humans on the back end that will escalate things. Like if they if the agent gets stuck, they have like direct connections to every major airline um and everything, and they can escalate things and take care of it for you. So, it's like a lifesaver. I can just text and say, "Hey, I want a flight." And it knows, and it'll just send to me, and I'll get it booked in like 2 minutes.

那真是太酷了。我查了一下。就是 miso.com 吗？

That is extremely cool. I looked it up. It's just miso.com?

是的。

Yeah.

miso.com。多么惊人的域名。呃，我猜你没有关联。你只是一个粉丝。就像

miso.com. What an amazing domain. Uh I imagine no affiliation. You're just a fan. and just like

是的，没有关联。

Yeah, no affiliation.

太酷了。好的，加油 Mesa。好的，还有两个问题。你有没有一个你经常在工作或生活中回顾的最喜欢的人生格言？

So cool. Okay, go Mesa. Okay, two more questions. Do you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to in work or in life?

是的，我有一个我非常喜欢的人生格言。我不知道我是否会搞砸这个，所以也许你可以帮我，但这是史蒂夫·乔布斯说的：你无法总是向前连接点，但你可以总是向后连接它们。当我回顾自己的生活时，我基本上在所有事情中都看到了这一点。我从来不是学校里最聪明的孩子。我的父母总是对我很沮丧。我有非常严重的 ADHD。足球是我唯一拥有的东西，然后我失去了它，然后我迷失了几个月，即使我在 Whisper，我并不真正理解正在发生的所有事情，或者为什么我在 16 岁时拿起相机，或者为什么我开始在 YouTube 上发布，或者为什么我参加运动。现在回顾过去，一切都很清晰，很有意义，我理解我在人生道路上的路径。我认为有时你只需要继续前进，然后一切最终都会变得有意义。是的，我认为这是我最喜欢的名言之一，我会回顾。

Yes, I have a I have a life motto that I like a lot. I don't know if I'm going to butcher this, so maybe you can help me, but it's from Steve Jobs that you can't always connect the the dots looking forward, but you can always connect them looking backwards. And like when I look into my own life, like I see that basically in everything. Like I was never the smartest kid kid in school. Like my parents were always pretty frustrated with me. I had really bad ADHD. Like soccer was the only thing I had, and then I lost it, and then I was like lost for for a few months even though I was at Whisper, and I didn't really understand all the things that were happening or why I even picked up a camera when I was 16 or why I started posting on YouTube or why I played sports. And like now looking back, like everything is so clear, makes so much sense, and like I understand the path I'm on on life. And like I think sometimes you just got to keep going, and and then it'll all make sense at the end. And like yeah, I think that's one of my favorite quotes I would back on.

我也觉得这非常正确，史蒂夫·乔布斯又说得对。Hector，这太不可思议了。非常感谢你分享这么多。你太棒了。最后一个问题，听众如何能对你有所帮助？

I also find that to be very true, and Steve Jobs nailed it again. Hector, this was incredible. Thank you so much for sharing so much. You're awesome. Final question, how can listeners be useful to you?

我的意思是，如果你们想在 X 或 Instagram 或 YouTube 上关注我，随便你们。来加入这段旅程吧。

I mean, if you guys want to follow me on X or on Instagram or YouTube, whatever you guys want. Come and join the the journey.

你的用户名就是 Hector Serrano Serrano。

And your your handle is just Hector Serrano Serrano.

是的，它在各个平台上都差不多。就像 Hector Serrano。你总会找到我的，但是的。

Yeah, it's it's pretty it's it's pretty similar across platforms. It's like Hector Serrano. You'll you'll find me one way or another, but yeah.

Hector，非常感谢你来到这里。

Hector, thank you so much for being here.

谢谢。谢谢。

Thank you. Thank you.

大家。非常感谢你们的收听。如果你觉得这有价值，你可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或你最喜欢的播客应用上订阅这个节目。另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这真的能帮助其他听众找到这个播客。你可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解更多关于这个节目的信息。下集见。

Everyone. Thank you so much for listening. If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast. You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com. See you in the next episode.