从微软到创业学校：加里的旅程与硅谷文化

Gary，兄弟，真高兴你能来。非常感谢你今天参加我们的节目。

Gary, so good to have you, brother. Thank you so much for joining us today.

谢谢你们的邀请。

Thanks for having me.

太棒了，兄弟。我们会先聊一些基础话题，然后进入更深入的主题，确保能满足我们观众的求知欲和野心。

Amazing, dude. Well, we're going to cover a bunch of the basics, then we're going to get into the advanced topics to make sure that we kind of match the curiosity and ambition of our audience.

听起来不错。

That sounds great.

这样可以吗？太好了。那么，兄弟，跟我聊聊你 2003 年刚开始时的旅程吧。我觉得大家很少讨论创始人的心理，以及硅谷文化，还有这两者之间的联系。你 2003 年刚从斯坦福出来，初入这个圈子时是什么感觉？

Does that work? Awesome. Well, dude, maybe talk to me a bit about the beginning of your journey 2003. You know, it feels like what's under discussed is founder psychology and then sort of Silicon Valley culture and how the two are connected. What did it feel like when you first got in the game back in 2003 coming out of Stanford?

我想在初创公司工作，但 2003 年很有意思，因为 Web 1.0 刚刚结束。你知道，纳斯达克刚刚崩盘，实际上我在湾区根本找不到工作，除了去 Gap 的 IT 部门。所以我收到的两份工作邀请，一个是微软的 Windows Mobile，我当时挺兴奋的，另一个是 Expedia。

I guess I wanted to work at startups, but uh 2003 was funny in that like web 1.0 had just ended. Like the you know, Nasdaq had just crashed and uh actually there were no jobs that I could even find in the Bay Area other than, you know, working at Gap IT. And so the two job offers I had were uh Microsoft for Windows Mobile, which I was pretty excited about, or Expedia.

嗯。

Okay.

是的，你知道，我有学生贷款，虽然我想创业，但我觉得我得先找份工作，而实际上湾区根本没有工作机会。所以，现在很难相信当时那么惨淡。就在 Web 2.0 之前，

Yeah, I you know, I had student loans and I you know, while I wanted to start a company, I just you know, felt like I needed to get a job and then actually there were no jobs in the Bay. So, it's like kind of hard to believe actually uh that moment was so bleak. And then right before web 2.0,

感觉像是科技行业的末日，是吧？

it felt like it might have been the end of tech, huh?

对，有点。当时就是那种氛围。但说到底，这就是繁荣和萧条。这种事情反复发生。

Right, a little bit. Yeah, that's what that was the vibe. And then you know, at the end of the day like that's the boom, that's the bust. Like these things sort of happen over and over again.

那么，当时在科技行业或初创公司工作，感觉地位高吗？

So, at the time did it feel high status to work in tech or on startups?

完全没有。我的意思是，这已经被时间冲淡了，但我当时对科技还是很兴奋。你知道，我做过很多网络编程，而我真正的遗憾之一是我在追逐热门的东西，而不是我真正了解的东西。马克·扎克伯格大概在 2003 年左右做 Facemash，那时 Facebook 还不存在，而我恰好在错误的时间放弃了网络编程。

Not at all. I mean, you know, it sort of lost to the sands of time, but um I was still excited about tech though. Um you know, I had done a lot of web programming and then one of my regrets actually was um I was sort of chasing what was hot instead of what was clearly the thing I knew. Mark Zuckerberg was probably doing Facemash um around then around 2003 and then Facebook didn't even exist yet um and I was getting out of web programming at exactly the wrong time.

因为那感觉是明智的选择。

Because it felt like that was the smart thing to do.

是的，那是明智的，而且你知道，现在也是如此。在 Startup School 所有人面前，我提出了这个“不要 LARP”的说法。

Yeah, it was smart and you know, I mean this is true now. Um you know, in in front of all these people at Startup School, uh you know, I sort of started this don't LARP

对。

Right.

这个梗。

um meme.

我看到了。

I saw that.

但我认为这背后包含着一个理念，就是你应该真诚。

Uh but I think like that's that's embedded in this idea that like you should just be earnest

嗯。

Yeah.

而且你不应该随大流，对吧？当时人们说网络已死，但那其实是做网络和社交等东西的最佳时机。你知道，我没有去做。我跑开说“哦，下一个热门会是移动端。”所以我想去 Windows Mobile，这没错，但我为什么放弃了可能成为下一个大事件的东西呢。

and then you shouldn't follow what the crowd is saying, right? Like at that moment people said the web was dead, but that was sort of the perfect time to work on web and social and things like that. Um and you know, I didn't do it. I I ran off and said like "Oh, well, the next hot thing will be mobile." So I wanted to work at Windows Mobile, which was true, but um why I give up like the thing that could have been the next thing.

我喜欢你说的，当我们听到“真诚”时，常常会想到“天真”，但实际上你似乎在说，真诚是成熟和勇气的结果。

What I love about what you're saying though is often when we hear earnest, we think naive, but actually what it sounds like you're saying is there's like earnestness is a sort of result of maturity and courage.

勇气，我认为才是关键。

Courage is actually I think the right thing.

是的。

Yes.

比如，如果你知道某件事，有人来反驳你，或者一篇博客文章，或者推特上有人反驳你，

Like if you know something that's sort of if someone just like comes and contradicts you or even if like a blog post or like someone on Twitter uh contradicts you,

嗯。

Yeah.

你会说，我不认同，因为我相信自己的直接经验。

you're like, well, I I don't I don't agree with that because I believe my own direct experience.

是的。

Yes.

我知道我不是时间旅行者，因为如果我是，我会给过去的自己发消息说：“继续做网络相关的事情。”你实际上比别人多 5 年经验。你可以绕过所有人。你可以构建任何社交软件。

I know that I'm not a time traveler because if I was a time traveler, I would have I would have sent a message back to myself and said, "Just stay on working on web stuff." Like you literally have um 5 years of experience on top of everyone else. Like you could do an end run around everyone. Like you could have built like any kind of social software.

是的。

Yes.

但相反，我当时 22 岁，所以被《华尔街日报》上读到的内容左右。你知道，我确信你作为投资人经常被问到的经典问题是：“什么热门？我该做什么？”

But instead I was, um, you know, I was 22. So I was like being whipped around by, uh, whatever I could read in The Wall Street Journal. And, you know, I the the classic question I'm sure you get that, you know, all investors get all the time is, "What's hot and what should I work on?"

对。

Right.

而这是个错误的问题。正确的问题是：“你对什么感兴趣？你有什么独特的知识？”所以，这是我职业生涯中犯的众多错误之一。我觉得我注定要成为讲述自己所有错误的第一性原理故事的人。

And that's the wrong question to ask. Like the right question is like, "What are you interested in? What do you know uniquely?" And so I was that's like, you know, one of a great many mistakes I made in my career. I feel like I'm a little bit, uh, doomed to be the first principle storyteller of, uh, all the mistakes that I made

我觉得让创始人听到你的旅程和错误非常鼓舞人心，这样他们就不会对自己犯过的错误感到太难过。

Well, I think that it's it's very inspiring for founders to hear your own journey and your own mistakes. And then not feel so bad about the ones that we've all made along the way.

我的意思是，也许谈谈今天的硅谷文化。一方面，20 年前可能很沮丧。想想你提到的只是 23 年前，真是疯狂。现在你会认为我们都应该非常高兴，但有一种暗流。也许就是你提到的 LARPing 现象。你知道，就是处于光锥之外，永久的底层。这从何而来？你认为其中有道理吗？详细说说。

I mean, maybe talk about the culture of Silicon Valley today. You know, on one hand maybe it was despondent 20 years ago. It's crazy to think that was just 23 years ago that you're talking about. Um, now you think we would all be incredibly elated, yet there's this undercurrent. Maybe it's the LARPing thing that you mentioned. You know, it's being outside of the light cone, the permanent underclass. Where does that come from? Do you think there's any truth in it? Talk through that.

我理解。竞争比以往任何时候都激烈。而且，我觉得也许我们花了太多时间在传播上。克里斯·迪克森经常谈到这个，你知道，你身处创意迷宫，但创意迷宫里最酷的部分其实是那些奇怪的边缘部分。总是像“什么是玩具？”这就是硅谷反复出现的模式，值得重复，对吧？

I mean, I get it. Like there's just more competition than ever. And then, um, I think maybe it's just that we're spending too much time in distribution. I think Chris Dixon talks about this all the time where, um, you know, you're in the idea maze, but you know, the cool parts of the idea maze are like the weird fringe parts, actually. It's always like, uh, what is a toy? Like and that's the pattern in Silicon Valley over and over again that bears repeating, right?

是的。

Yes.

比如，每个家庭每张桌子上都有一台电脑的想法。

Like the idea that you could have a computer on every desk in every home.

嗯。

Yeah.

今天，当然，这已经实现了。但

Uh, today is like, of course, like that's what's come to pass. But

创造那个东西的人，他们其实是边缘的怪咖朋克。

the people who created that thing, they were fringe weirdo punks, actually.

是的。

Yes.

嗯。

Uh

他们是局外人。我的意思是，家酿计算机俱乐部不是你能泡到妞的地方。

They were outsiders. I mean, Homebrew Computer Club was not where you were getting laid.

是的，没错。

Yeah. That's right.

你只是追随一种奇怪的痴迷，你知道，我确实想要自己的电脑。

You You just were like following this weird obsession that, you know, actually I want my own computer.

我想克里斯也说过。我认为衡量一个东西有趣程度的好方法是你能否找到边缘？

And I think Chris has said this, too. I think a good measure of how interesting the thing is is can you find the edge?

嗯。

Mhm.

而对于最有趣的东西，你通常找不到。

And for the most interesting things, you typically can't.

即使你找到了对话的边缘，你也找不到智识的边缘。我认为这是一个非常好的迹象。我的意思是，我在 80 年代长大时也有过这种经历，也许你也有过。在小学里，大概在高中里，也许到了大学，你才找到自己的同类。而现在，我认为作为互联网原生一代的奇迹之一，就是人们能更早地找到自己的同类。你在 Reddit 上找到同类，你在 X 或 Ins 或任何你的网络上找到同类。

Even if you find the edge of the conversation, you can't find the intellectual edge. Which I think is a very good sign. I mean, I had this growing up in the '80s, maybe you had this, too. There was sort of one way to be cool in grade school, and probably in high school, and maybe when you got to college, you kind of found your people. And now I think one of the miracles of being internet native generation is that people find their people much sooner. You find your people on Reddit, you find your people on, you know, X or Insta or whatever your network is.

哦，是的。我的意思是，这是今天最酷的事情。比如，可能有一个 subreddit，可能有一个 X 的某个部分，你知道，Twitter 的某个角落，就是属于你那群超级奇怪但真的、真的对那件事着迷的人。你几乎可以瞬间找到你的部落。

Oh, yeah. I mean, that's the coolest thing today. Like, there's probably a subreddit, there's probably a part of X, like, you know, some part of Twitter that is just your set of super weird, but really, really into that thing. And you can find your tribe more or less instantly.

是的。是的，你能谈谈硅谷的文化吗？感觉 10 年前，你知道，在 Palantir 这样的公司工作地位较低，要么是因为人们担心做太多涉及国家利益的事情，要么是因为它被贬低为服务业务。现在，它显然是世界上最重要的公司之一，拥有最引人注目的 CEO 之一。你很早就加入了。当时感觉如何？你为什么这么做？

Yeah. Yeah, can you talk a bit about the culture of Silicon Valley? It felt like 10 years ago it was sort of, you know, it was lower status to work on something like Palantir, either because people were nervous about doing things that were too much in the national interest, or because it was sort of dismissed as a services business. Now, it's clearly one of the most important companies in the world with one of the most compelling CEOs. You were early there. What did it feel like? Why did you do it?

是的。我的意思是，我有一个更糟糕的故事。我还有另一个关于错误的故事。

Yeah. I mean, I have a worse story than that. I have another mistake story.

好的。

Okay.

乔·朗斯代尔和斯蒂芬·科恩是我在斯坦福的兄弟会兄弟，Phi Psi 兄弟会。然后我有了一份工作，而他们当时是彼得·蒂尔对冲基金的实习生。

Where Joe Lonsdale and Stephen Cohen were my fraternity brothers at Stanford, Phi Psi. And then I had a job, and they were like interns at Peter Thiel's hedge fund.

呃，然后我有了一份工作，而他们当时是彼得·蒂尔对冲基金的实习生。

Uh and then I had a job, and they were like interns at Peter Thiel's hedge fund.

彼得有个习惯，当你开始做一件事时，你应该在一张纸上写下所有你需要去雇佣并让他们加入你的最聪明的人。所以他们说：“哦，我们去把加里找来。他在西雅图。”他们让我飞过去和他共进晚餐。

And Peter has this thing where you're supposed to, when you start a thing, you write down on a piece of paper all the smartest people who you need to go and hire and get to join you. And so they said, "Oh, let's go get Gary. He's up in Seattle." Like they flew me down to have dinner with him.

然后他说，你知道，彼得说：“我非常确定这对你来说是正确的选择。这是一张 7 万美元的支票。”那是我当时在微软的收入。

And he said, you know, Peter said, "I'm so sure this is the right thing for you. Here's a check for 70 grand." That was how much I made at Microsoft at the time.

然后我说：“非常感谢你，蒂尔先生，但我今年可能会升到 60 级。”

And I said, "Thank you very much, Mr. Thiel, but I might get promoted to level 60 this year."

哦，不。

Oh, no.

我确实升了。但我认为那现在是一个价值 20 亿到 40 亿美元的错误。

Which I did. But I think it's that was like a $2 billion to $4 billion mistake at this point.

哦，不。

Oh, no.

我一直在想这件事。基本上，我又做了同样的事情。就像当初让我去开发 Windows Mobile 而不是留在我熟悉和热爱的东西上的那种想法。它又发生了。我当时想，嗯，我不知道，你知道，我在从地图倒推，而不是低头看地形说，哦，这些是我认识的最聪明的人。乔和斯蒂芬是我见过的最聪明的人。而且你知道，如果不是他们，我还能和谁一起成为联合创始人呢？就像，你知道，宇宙在说这是你需要做的事情。但我只关心什么酷，什么热门，一个真正优秀的投资者会怎么说？

And I think about it all the time. Like basically, I did the same thing again. It was like the same thing that got me to go work on Windows Mobile instead of just staying on the thing that I knew and loved. It happened again. I was like, well, I don't know, you know, I was working backwards from the map instead of looking down at the territory and saying like, oh, well, these are the smartest people I know. Like Joe and Stefan were among the smartest people I'd ever met. And you know, if not them, like who was I going to, you know, be a co-founder with? Like it just, you know, the universe was saying like this is the thing you need to do. But all I cared about was what was cool, what was hot, what would a really good investor say?

嗯

Um

而他们就像是在依据地图行事。而你可以看到，你可以低头看，你可以环顾四周，你可以拥有关于正在发生的事情的第一性原理知识。你知道，他们当时在做的是去接触政府和三字母机构。很明显，帕洛阿尔托真正优秀的计算机科学家能做的事情和创造的东西，华盛顿特区无法接触到。你知道，有趣的是，他们（彼得、乔、斯蒂芬，后来还有亚历克斯·卡普）识别出的那个东西，贯穿了我们在硅谷所做的几乎所有事情。就像未来已经到来，只是分布不均。而这就是第一性原理知识，或者像科学家一样看待世界，实际上非常有用。

And the thing is like they're like going off of a map. And like you can see, you can look down, you can look around, you can like have first principles knowledge of what's going on. And you know, what they were doing is like they were going to governments and three-letter agencies. And it was clear that the things that really good computer scientists in Palo Alto could do and create, DC did not have access to that. And you know, it's funny how much that thing that they had identified like Peter and Joe and Stefan and later Alex Karp identified. That runs through almost everything that we do in Silicon Valley. It's just like the future is already here. It's not evenly distributed. And then that's where first principles knowledge or like just viewing the world as a scientist is actually very useful.

是的。

Yes.

而科学家所做的，你知道，当然有发表的论文，但你会去审视所有的事实。你会发现，一旦你深入实验，或者你去和那些正在经历某件事的第一方人士交谈，你就会学到秘密知识。然后你就有了灵知。所以，你知道，从 Palantir 我确实学到了，我生命中所有了不起的东西都是一种邪教。

And what a scientist does is, you know, sure there's published papers, but you go and you examine all the truths. And what you find is that once you go down into the experiment or you go down and talk to the first party people who are experiencing a thing, then you learn secret knowledge. Then you have gnosis. And so, you know, from Palantir I definitely learned that everything that's awesome in my life is kind of a cult.

是的。

Yeah.

它始于某种违背正统的真理或信念，这实际上非常朋克。

That starts with some sort of truth or belief that flies in the face of an orthodoxy, which is very punk actually.

是的。是的。完全同意，老兄，里克·鲁宾会赞同的。

Yes. Yes. Totally dude, that's very Rick Rubin would approve.

是的。是的。是的。是的。

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

是的，嗯，实际上我喜欢你所说的，有一个美丽的真理，你谈到了这些也许是悲剧性的错失，但你知道，教训是勇气，教训是真诚，对吧？教训是当你的直觉把你拉向与一群人合作时。所以也许谈谈，你知道，我们经常谈论硅谷的魔力在于它把局外人变成局内人。我觉得 YC 是那的终极提炼。你知道，你从可能是来自外国的两位创始人，变成 LinkedIn 上有 YC 的两个人，现在每个人都知道那意味着什么。

Yeah, well, actually what I love about what you're saying is that there's a beautiful truth in the fact that you've talked through some of these maybe tragic misses, but you know, the lessons are courage, the lessons are earnestness, right? The lessons are when your instincts are pulling you to work with a set of people. So maybe talk a little bit about, you know, we talk a lot about how Silicon Valley and the magic is it takes outsiders and turns them into insiders. And I feel like YC is the ultimate distillation of that. You know, you go from being two founders perhaps from a foreign country to two people with YC on their LinkedIn and everybody now knows what that means.

完全同意。

Totally.

那么谈谈这是如何发生的。这是一个过程吗？是一种心态吗？这些年来它有什么变化？

So talk about how that happens. Is it a process? Is it a mindset? And how has it changed over the years?

嗯，我的意思是，我必须归功于保罗·格雷厄姆和杰西卡·利文斯顿，以及包括特雷弗·布莱克威尔和罗伯特·莫里斯在内的原始创始人。我的意思是，保罗和杰西卡发现的是，有很多很多真正聪明的人无法进入硅谷。我的意思是，我认为在过去，你必须上对学校，你必须认识对的人，如果你没有，你会来到硅谷，然后试图被邀请参加对的派对。有一个你必须破解的社交网络。然后 YC，我们对整个场景有一个贬义词，我们实际上称他们为“场景客”。我的意思是，这有点像对你过去必须做的事情的致敬。有些人仍然相信那就是你做事的方式。他们所做的只是说，你知道吗？这是一个网站，这里有 12 个问题，后来我们添加了一个 1 分钟的视频。而另一端那些建设者会试图给你一个公平的机会。

Um, I mean, I have to credit Paul Graham and Jessica Livingston and the original founders including Trevor Blackwell and Robert Morris. I mean, what Paul and Jessica figured out was that there are lots and lots of really smart people who do not get access to Silicon Valley. I mean, I think in the past you had to go to the right schools, you had to know the right people, and if you didn't, you'd come to Silicon Valley and you'd try to get invited to the right parties. There was like a social network that you had to crack. And then YC, we have a pejorative for that whole scene, which we call them scenesters actually. Which is, I mean, it's sort of a nod to what you used to have to do. And some people still believe that's how you do it. All they did was say, you know what? Here's a website, here's 12 questions, later we added like a 1-minute video. And people on the other end who are builders are going to try to give you a fair shake.

所以今天我们拥有，你知道的，包括我在内的 16 位平等合伙人，我们都经历过 YC 并取得了成功。我认为这其中有某种价值。

And so today we have, you know, 16 equal partners including myself, and all of us went through YC and had successful outcomes. I think there's something valuable to that.

欢迎来到硅谷。我们刚刚庆祝了 7,000 人来到旧金山。他们中的大多数是第一次来，这是我们每年的创业学校。

Welcome to Silicon Valley. We just celebrated 7,000 people coming to San Francisco. The majority of them, the very first time they came, it's our Startup School every single year.

太不可思议了。

So incredible.

我们有点称之为“科技界的出生权”。

We kind of call it like birthright but for tech.

老兄，那看起来像罗马斗兽场。

It looked like the Roman Colosseum, dude.

是的。

Yeah.

太棒了。

It was amazing.

是的。所以我认为这是硅谷最酷的地方。你来自哪里或你是谁并不重要。真正重要的是你的想法是什么，以及你是否能执行。

Yeah. So I think that's the coolest thing about Silicon Valley. It sort of doesn't matter where you're from or who you are. It just actually matters what your ideas are and can you execute.

我想说的另一件 YC 人拥有而很多人没有的东西，是一个你可以非常坦诚相待的社区。就像如果你去参加 TechCrunch 的活动，你左看右看，会想，你真的能告诉他们任何真实的事情吗？你会把牌藏得很紧，你会说“你怎么样”，他们会说“好极了”，然后他们反问，你会说“哦，我也好极了”。

The only other thing that I'd say YC people get that a lot of people don't get is a community of people who you can be super real with. It's like if you go to a TechCrunch event, you look to the left, you look to the right and it's like, are you really going to be able to tell them anything real? You're going to hold your cards pretty close and you're going to say how you're doing and they're going to say killing it and then they're going to ask back and like, oh, I'm also killing it.

说实话，创始人真的需要这个。这非常孤独。在你失去最好客户的那天，在你最好的工程师辞职的那天，你会打电话给谁？如果你没有人……

Honestly, founders really need that. It's very solitary. On the day that you lose your best customer, on the day that your best engineer quits, who are you going to call? And if you have no one...

你的联合创始人失去希望而你却不能的那一天。

The day your co-founder loses hope and you're not allowed to.

对。

Right.

那是艰难的一天，你知道吗？

That's a tough day, you know?

是的。

Yeah.

谈谈创始人类型、商业类型的历史性上行惊喜和下行惊喜。你通过 YC 学到了什么？

Talk about the historical upside surprises of founder types, business types, and the downside surprises. What have you learned through YC?

我的意思是，我认为我们现在正处于一场大变革之中。

I mean, we're sort of in the middle of a big transformation now, I think.

好的。

Okay.

在很长一段时间里，我们真的相信你需要联合创始人，我认为在其他条件相同的情况下，拥有联合创始人绝对是好事。

For the longest time we really believed that you needed co-founders, and I think that everything else being equal, having co-founders is net really really good.

完全同意。

Totally.

我认为这有点像邪教的开始。

I think some of this is like the beginning of a cult.

是的。

Yeah.

就像一个只有一个人的邪教，那个人无法说服其他人加入，你知道，这比邪教更糟。实际上就像一个疯子。

Like a cult where there's only one person and that person can't convince anyone else to join them is, you know, worse than a cult. It's just like a crazy person actually.

对，对，对。

Right, right, right.

我认为这就像德里克·西弗斯的一个老 TED 演讲，对吧？就像，一个人在田野里跳舞是个疯子。

I think this is like an old Derek Sivers TED Talk, right? Where it's like, one person dancing in a field is a crazy person.

是的。

Yes.

但真正重要的是第二个人站起来加入那个人，然后你会发现突然 10 个人都在跳舞。那就是一场派对。是的，那正是 TED 演讲。

But it's really the second person who gets up and joins that person, then you find that suddenly 10 people are all dancing. Then it's a party. Yeah, that's literally the TED Talk.

喜欢。

Love it.

我认为这有道理，但我认为现在随着氛围编码和智能体式编码的发生……

And I think there's something to that, but I think what's happening right now with vibe coding and agentic coding...

是的。

Yeah.

实际上，任何一个人都可以是两年前那个人的 400 倍，甚至九个月前。你可以成为自己的多倍。

Literally any given person could be 400 of that person from two years ago, even like nine months ago. You can be a multiple of yourself.

太神奇了。

It's amazing.

是的，所以……

Yeah, and so...

你认为创始人比以往任何时候都更有野心吗？

Think founders are more ambitious than they've ever been?

他们应该如此。

They should be.

是的。

Yes.

如果有的话，人们应该做的第一件事就是意识到不要追逐你的成功或我的成功。那是我们成长的时候。

If anything, that's the number one thing that people should do is realize that don't chase your success or my success. That was, you know, when we were coming up.

对。

Right.

游戏已经变了。

The game done changed.

你知道，你实际上不能只做一个 SaaS 产品。我刚刚对我的纯 SaaS 做了一个分析，我想，哦，糟糕，一个纯按席位收费的 SaaS 产品，不太清楚它是否会在未来 5 或 10 年存在。作为切入点完全没问题，但如果你在 2026 年做这个，你最好希望那是向数据护城河或网络效应或其他什么的飞跃，对吧？

You know, you actually can't just do a SaaS thing. I was just doing an analysis on my pure SaaS and I was like, oh shoot, a pure per-seat SaaS thing, not totally clear it will exist in another 5 or 10 years. It's perfectly fine as a wedge, but if you're doing that now in 2026, you better hope that that's a leap to some sort of moat around data or network effects or something else, right?

这就像，如果我们穿越回两年前，SaaS 就像上帝一样，你知道，未来 12 个月 10 到 20 倍的收入倍数就像铁律。很难相信那曾经是真的，哦，是的，不，现在完全不是这样了。

And that's like, if we would time travel to even 2 years ago, it's like SaaS was God, you know, the 10-20X next 12 months revenue multiple was like iron law. And it's hard to believe it was like, oh yeah, no, that's not true at all now.

嗯，所有这些，我喜欢的一个相关的事情是代码不再珍贵。

Well, all this is a related thing that I love is that code is no longer precious.

嗯。

Mhm.

天哪。

My god.

那就像……

That's like...

我们为了发布一个东西必须经历的事情。这就是为什么你必须有一种感觉，你正在做的事情是重要的，大写的重要。

The things that we had to go through to get something shipped. And that's why you had to have this sense that what you were making was important with a capital I.

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

这实际上与我们刚刚谈论的那种美丽的真理相悖，因为通常真诚并不明显是大写的重要。所以当你追求那些看起来重要的事情时，大多数最重要的事情实际上开始时看起来并不重要。

And that actually flies against the kind of beautiful truth we were just talking about, because often earnestness isn't obviously important with a capital I. So you pursue things that seem important when most of the most important things actually start out seeming actually unimportant.

我知道你在 G Stack 和 G Brain 上投入了很多。当你开始构建这些东西时，是打算为社区做贡献，还是只是探索你的兴趣？

I know you've been all over this with G stack and G brain. When you started out to build those things, was it with the intention to contribute to the community or just explore your interests?

哦，我只是在瞎搞。就像，你知道，是什么来着？我想鲍里斯·切尔尼上了 Light Cone 播客，我就有了一种冲动，你知道，我们一群共同的朋友，基本上都重新开始编码了，我想，哦，有事要发生了。我最好开始。然后最初只是瞎搞。就像，“哦，我的意思是，做一次办公时间会是什么感觉？”

Oh, I was just messing around. Like, you know, what was it? I think Boris Cherny came on Light Cone podcast and I just felt the urge to, you know, and a bunch of our mutual friends, like all of them basically just started coding again and I was like, oh something's happening. I better start. And then initially it was just messing around. It's like, "Oh, I mean, what would it be like to do and like make an office hours?"

是的。

Yeah.

然后最疯狂的事情是，我们实际上刚刚开始录制我们所有的办公时间。然后我有几个月的 数据，有非常清晰的东西，YC 合伙人用来作为修辞手法或方式来激发你野心的阶跃函数。

And then the craziest thing there was like we had just started recording all of our office hours, actually. And then I had like a few months of data, and there were very clear things that the YC partners used as like rhetorical devices or ways to draw out like a step function in your ambition.

嗯。

Mhm.

然后有趣的是，我有这个 markdown 文件，基本上就像如何建议创始人提高野心的完美脚本。

And then what's funny is I have this markdown file that is basically like the perfect script on how to advise founders to increase their ambition.

是的。

Yeah.

然后我实际上不得不进入 Claude，我说：“把这个减少 90%。把这个提示的强度和力度减少 90%。”然后我开源了那个。

And then I actually had to go into Claude, and I said, "Reduce this by 90%. Reduce the strength and intensity of this prompt by 90%." And then I open-sourced that.

因为有些东西就像你必须来参加 YC 的活动。

Because some of it is like you got to come and do YC stuff.

当然。好吧，我们会采用你最喜欢的五个。

Of course. It's well, we'll take your favorite five.

好的，谢谢。

Okay, thank you.

是的。我们不能免费赠送皇冠上的宝石。这只是个尝鲜。第一个是免费的，你知道吗？

Yeah. We can't give away the crown jewels for free. This is just a taste. The first one's free, you know?

好吧，老兄，凯文发现了这个。我想是在 G Stacker G Brain 里，在开源代码深处你说了“请申请 YC”。

Well dude, Kevin caught this. I think it was a G stacker G brain where deep in the open source you'd said, "Please apply to YC."

是的，是的，是的。但前提是你必须是 Claude Code 的前 10% 用户。

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But only if you're a top 10% user of Claude code.

难以置信。

Incredible.

比如，你是否考虑用户、对产品和设计用心。其实不是每个人都能接收到这个信息。

Like based on whether you're thinking about users, thoughtful about your product and your design. It's not everyone gets that message, actually.

是的，是的。兄弟，我喜欢你这么做，而且喜欢你这么公开地做，因为我觉得这又回到了真诚这个点上，现在建立直觉的关键就是去使用技术。

Yes. Yes. Well dude, I love that you're doing it, and I love that you're doing it so publicly because I think this comes back to the earnestness point, which is the whole thing about building intuition at this moment is just using the technology.

哦，对。

Oh yeah.

你知道，我觉得有一种感觉，像是“哦，我怎么可能赶得上？”或者对它过于严肃。其实不是，就是去用每个模型，构建完全琐碎的东西，仅仅是为了有一个框架去学习新技术。

You know, and I think that there's this feeling like, "Oh, how can I possibly catch up?" Or there's so much seriousness around it. It's like, "No. Just use every model and build completely trivial things for no other reason to have a chassis with which to learn the new technology."

我觉得最令人兴奋的是你可以有想法。过去，像是“哦，我得当产品经理，让我写规格说明，确保有一两个工程师。哦，我们怎么做质量保证？”有这么多过去需要担心的事情。现在，不，斜杠质量保证，就完成了。你知道，是的，我们测试过了，很好。我们有单元测试，90% 的测试覆盖率，你知道吗？

I think the most exciting thing is like you can just have ideas. And then in the past it's like, "Oh, well I had to be the PM. Let me write the spec. Like let me make sure I have, you know, one or two engineers. Like oh, how are we going to do QA? Like there's just all this stuff that you used to have to worry about. And then now it's like no, slash QA. Like it's done. Like, you know, yeah, we tested it. It's good. Like we have unit tests. Like 90% test coverage, you know?"

完全同意。你知道，这就像布置你的禅意枯山水，做起来很有趣，输出并不那么重要，这就是为什么大家都在谈论编码智能体，但很少有人展示他们的成果。

Totally. You know, it's like arranging your Zen rock garden. It's just fun to do it and the output doesn't matter that much, which is why everybody talks about coding agents, but very few people are showing their work.

哦，对。因为很多都是低风险的工作，我觉得这很美，也没关系。

Oh, yeah. Cuz a lot of it is sort of low stakes work and I think that's beautiful and okay.

是的。

Yeah.

不，我是说，我觉得现在主动性和品味突然变得极其重要，这太疯狂了。然后困难的部分是帮助人们意识到，通过行动和练习，你才能变得更好。我其实不认为这些是天生的。有些人可能天生多一点，但

No, I mean and then I think it's crazy to what degree like suddenly agency and taste like off the charts important now. And then the hard part is like helping people realize like just by the act of doing it and exercising it, like that's how you get better. It's I don't actually think that like those things are innate or inborn. Like some people have more of it coming out of the womb per se, but

当然。

Sure.

你知道，就是练习。你明白吗？

you know, it's you just practice. You know?

好吧，让我挑战一下你，因为 Nikita 大概一年前说过这个，我觉得很有趣，那就是，我们被告知艺术和商业的最高形式是电影和软件。现在任何人都能拍电影，任何人都能做软件，但最初做这件事的那 20% 的人仍然是做这件事的人。是不是说，主动性是你能够拥抱的东西，还是有些人天生主动性高，而很多人不是？

Well, let me challenge you on this cuz Nikita said this a couple of maybe a year ago and I thought it was interesting, which is hey, we were told that the highest form of art and business was, you know, film and software. And now anyone can make films and anybody can make software, yet the same 20% who were originally doing it are still the ones who are doing it. Is there kind of this like is agency something that you can, you know, embrace or are there just people that are naturally high agency and many that are not?

嗯，如果我看自己的职业生涯，我很容易说我是大器晚成。你知道，我不得不犯这些荒谬的错误，比如拒绝 Palantir，或者离开网页编程去学习。所以，我觉得我的人生有点像证明，不，不，我可以犯错，然后我可以反思，我可以推理，然后做出不同的选择。

Mhm. I mean, if I look at my own career, like I would easily say that I'm a late bloomer. And, you know, I had to make these like ridiculous mistakes, like saying no to Palantir or like leaving web programming to like learn. And so, I feel like my life is somewhat like a testament to no, no, like I can make mistakes and then I can introspect. I can reason about them and then make different choices.

太棒了。

Amazing.

反正这是希望。

That's the hope anyway.

是的，这就是希望。

Yeah, that is hope.

谈谈循环吧。我觉得它们是一种编码循环，嗯，已经讨论得很充分了。现在还有图谱这个东西，你知道，既有趣又真实。但感觉最有趣的循环是业务循环。

Talk a little bit about loops. I think they're a kind of coding loops, um, which are well discussed. And now the graphs thing, which is sort of, you know, both funny and and also real. But it feels like the most interesting loops are business loops.

哦，对。

Oh, yeah.

比如，你怎么能有一个循环，其输出改变业务本身的运作方式？我知道 Tom 就如何以这种方式组织公司做了一次精彩的演讲。

Like how can you actually have a loop where the output is changing the way the business itself operates? I know that Tom gave this great talk about how to organize your company in that way.

谈谈 YC 如何围绕循环进行组织，以及你如何建议你的公司这样做。

Talk about how YC is organizing around loops and how you're advising your companies to.

是的，当然。我是说，我摆弄过 Open Claw。我创建了 G Brain，有点像 Soda Retrieval。嗯，我基本上提炼了，今年早些时候我创建了 Garyslist.org，这实际上有点像智能体式新闻编辑室。然后我必须创建非常好的 RAG（检索增强生成），围绕个人深度研究，才能整理出其中一些文章。

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I messed around with Open Claw. I created G Brain, which is kind of like Soda Retrieval. Um, I basically distill I earlier this year I created Garyslist.org, which is sort of like actually an agentic newsroom. And then I had to create like really, really good rag around like, you know, uh, personal deep research just to be able to put together some of those articles.

嗯。

Mhm.

呃，然后我所做的就是让 Open Claw 查看那个代码库，提取出智能体式 RAG 部分，特别是围绕事后图谱生成的部分。

Uh, and then all I did was like I had Open Claw look at that repo, extract out like the agentic rag part, especially around like, um, like after-the-fact uh, graph generation.

嗯。

Mhm.

嗯，然后它最终变成了 Soda，甚至与 Memory Palace 和其他一堆开源项目竞争。

Um, and then it just ended up being Soda even against like Memory Palace and a bunch of other open source.

可用的。

Edible.

呃，然后我意识到的是，这能让智能体知道在给定任务中应该记住哪些百万级词元。

Uh, and then what I realized is that just allows the agent to know what million tokens to keep in its head for any given task.

是的。

Yes.

所以，嗯，有趣的是，我觉得现在有几件事在起作用，比如前沿模型实验室，你知道，让你使用 ChatGPT 或 Claw，我认为他们在给你多少算力方面仍然相当受限。所以，如果你真的想最大化词元，你实际上必须使用像 Hermes Agent 或 Open Claw 这样的东西。

And so, um, what's interesting is like I think there are a couple things at work right now, like, um, the frontier model labs that are, you know, letting you use ChatGPT or Claw, I think that they're still pretty constrained on and pretty constrained on, um, amount of compute they want to give you. And so, if you really want to token max, you actually have to use something like Hermes Agent or Open Claw.

嗯。

Mhm.

嗯，然后你必须把它调到最大。就像，给我，让我加载一百万个词元或八十万个词元到

Um, and then you have to like tune it all the way up. Like you're just like, give me like let me load a million tokens or 800,000 tokens in

是的。

Yeah.

任何给定的请求中，并把它放在你的 soul.md 里。

to any given request and like have that be in your like soul.md.

是的。但当你这样做时，我觉得你基本上就能活在 2028 年。你知道，每年要花大概 5 万到 10 万美元，才能以全力使用智能体，每次请求都达到 150 的智商。但你或多或少会立刻感受到。只是花费巨大。但对于 CEO 或创始人来说，这样做确实很有意义，你必须允许自己以那种方式最大化词元。嗯，但你知道，然后你得到的是，你能今天就活在 2028 年。

Yeah. But when you do that, like I think that you basically get to live in 2028. Like, you know, it costs, I don't know, 50 or 100,000 dollars a year to like use the agents at full strength, like full 150 IQ on every request. But you'll feel it more or less immediately. It just costs like a crazy amount. But for a CEO or for a founder, it actually makes a lot of sense to do that and you have to give yourself permission to token max in that way. Um, but you know, and then what you get is like I get you get to live in 2028 today.

太棒了。

Amazing.

嗯，但我觉得回到创始人能做什么，如果你那样生活，你不仅想做那个任务，你还想把它技能化。比如你完成一些壮举，然后把它变成一个可复用的 Markdown 文件加代码加测试，并放入定时任务。

Um, but I think like going back to what founders can do, um, if you live that way, not only do you want to do that task, you want to like skillify it. Like you you do some like feat of strength and then you turn it into a markdown file plus code plus tests that can be reused and like put into a cron job.

是的。

Yes.

所以，呃，我认为我们正在看到，普遍地，一个 Markdown 文件就是一个员工。

And so, uh, I think we're just seeing like across the board, um, a markdown file is an employee.

是的。

Yeah.

而且它是一个每次都能完美完成工作的员工，而且你想让它做多少次就做多少次。

And it's an employee that, uh, will do the job perfectly every single time and it will do it like as many times as you want.

是的。

Yeah.

然后，你知道，到那时你所做的就是，把你公司需要的任何业务流程，完美地做一次。第一次尝试时，会很糟糕。

And then, you know, at that point all you're doing is like take any business process that you need in your company and you just do it once perfectly. And the first time you try to do it, it's going to be bad.

昂贵。是的，是的，很多次迭代。

Expensive. Yeah, yes, many iterations.

是的。但最后，只要你能非常快速、非常简单地告诉它，比如“嘿，智能体，修这个，修那个。这个错了。”嗯，你知道，那个智能体与你合作的实际轨迹和历史，

Yeah. But then at the end you can you as long as you can tell very, very quickly and in in very simple ways, like, "Hey agent, fix this, fix that. Like this was wrong." Um, you know, the actual trace and the actual, uh, history out of, um, that agent, uh, working with you,

嗯。

Mhm.

它实际上会把它变成一个完美的技能文件。而且以后任何时候出错，都只是修个 bug，然后就永远存在了。

It'll actually turn that into a skill file that's perfect, actually. And anytime it screws up in a future case, it's just a bug fix, and then it's there forever.

这个循环你可以应用到销售、营销、客户支持，以及所有方面。

And this loop you would apply to sales, to marketing, to customer support, to everything.

是的，所有方面。

Yeah, to everything.

真有意思。

Really interesting.

我的意思是，G stack 基本上就是工程领域的那个东西，对吧？就像有一个 QA 循环。我必须构建一个能与浏览器配合工作的东西，因为那是我早期使用 G stack 时发现的，我发现自己自动化了我对产品管理的思考方式，然后我有一个工程技能，就像一个引擎管理器，确保有单元测试和端到端测试覆盖。

I mean, G stack was basically that for engineering, right? It's like there's a QA loop. I had to build something that works with browsers to go and cuz that's what I found like early with G stack, I found myself automating how I thought about PM, and then I had an engineering skill that was like an engine manager that made sure that there was a unit test and end-to-end test coverage.

是的。

Yep.

但最后，我发现自己把其他所有事情都自动化得太多，以至于最后我做的只是黑盒测试来验证。然后我就想，“哦，不，不，好吧，连那部分也是。”有意思的是，今天构建这些智能体式系统，我觉得你做的就是看到瓶颈在哪里，然后几乎每次都是，“我怎么让智能体创建一个软件或 markdown 文件来消除那个障碍。”然后，当你退一步看，你已经为整个任务做了这些，就像，我的意思是，现在有些公司，我们之前谈到的，真的可以在大约 4 个月内从零做到 1500 万美元的年经常性收入，只有两三个人和几百个智能体，你知道，几百个技能文件。

But then in the end, I found myself like I automated all the other things so much that all I was doing at the end was black box testing to verify. And it was like, "Oh, no, no, okay, like even that part." Like it's interesting like building these agentic systems today, I think that's all you're doing is you're seeing where the bottlenecks are, and then, you know, almost every single time it's like, "How do I just instruct the agent to create a piece of software or a markdown file that blows away that roadblock." And then, when you take a step back and you've done that for the whole task, it's like, I mean, we there are companies now today that, you know, we were talking about earlier that's like literally you can go from zero to 15 mil ARR in about 4 months with like two or three people and like hundreds of agent like, you know, a few hundred skill files.

太神奇了。所以，这里有这种递归的自我改进，还有这种爬山式的过程。它在什么时候开始崩溃？你需要错误纠正吗？错误会累积吗？它会不会受到异常处理、人际关系的限制？否则，这些公司应该能够永远增长和运行。

It's amazing. So, there's this like recursive self-improvement and there's this hill climbing that happens. Like at what point does it start to fall over? Is there like do you need error correction? Do the errors compound? Does it get constrained by exception handling, human relationships? Cuz otherwise, these companies should just be able to grow and run forever.

是的。我的意思是，我的经验是，一旦你有很多 markdown 文件，或者任何时候你有大量数据，那就是来源重要的地方。那就是冲突管理，你知道，当你有两个事实，如果你有来源，你就会说，嗯，这是最新的，这个胜出。你需要一个定时任务来扫描这些，确保事情是准确的，来自正确的地方。但这些都是我认为当你使用系统时，你自然知道需要构建的东西。就像任何人，我的意思是，这实际上是我认为现在对 30 多岁和 40 多岁的创始人来说是一个优势的有趣事情之一。

Yeah. I mean, I guess my experience once you get a lot of markdown files or yeah, anytime you have like some large amount of data, that's where like provenance matters. That's where conflict management sort of you know when you have two facts if you have provenance then you're like well this is the more recent one like this is the one that wins. You need a cron job that's sort of sweeping through that and making sure that things are accurate and from the right places. But these are things that I think as you use the systems you just know that you need to build these things. Like anyone who's I mean this is actually one of the interesting things I think is an advantage for founders in their 30s and 40s now.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，我认为会有和以前一样多的 Patrick Collison 们。

Like I mean I think that there going to be as many Patrick Collisons as ever.

是的。

Yeah.

但我们看到的一个大趋势是，35、40、45 岁的创始人，他们经验丰富。

But one mega trend that we're seeing is like a 35 40 45 year old founder who like been around the block.

是的，是的，是的。

Yeah yeah yeah.

创建了很多公司。我的意思是，我认为 Peter Steinberger 就是一个完美的例子。他经验丰富，知道该构建什么。

Built a lot of companies. I mean I think yeah Peter Steinberger is like a perfect example of that. Where it's like he's been around the block like he knows what to build.

是的。

Yes.

然后如果你把那个人，突然有 400 个这样的人，你可以超越任何七大科技公司的整个部门。

And then if you take that person like suddenly there's 400 of those people like you can outperform an entire department of like any mag seven.

我还认为，如果你在企业中有一些经验，你会知道这些动态，你可以寻求模仿和探索。所以我真正感兴趣的事情之一是冲突。对吧？大多数企业里的人会说冲突是坏事，但我实际上认为有一种富有成效的、建设性的冲突，在最好的情况下是对真理的探索。

I also think that if you've had some experience in the enterprise there are these dynamics that you know you can seek to kind of mirror and explore. So one of the things I'm really interested in is conflict. Right? Most people at an enterprise would say conflict is a bad thing but I actually think that there's this sort of productive constructive conflict that at its best is the search for truth.

是的。

Yeah.

这些系统让我们能够探索相互冲突的方法，并完全将其与人类情感解耦。我认为这非常重要，因为这就是为什么组织或经济中的去中心化运作良好，因为每个想法都会被尝试。你知道吗？

These systems allow us to do things like explore conflicting approaches and totally unbundle it from the human emotion. And I think that's actually very important because this is why the sort of the decentralization in an organization or an economy works well because every idea gets tried. You know?

是的，呃，你知道 Brex 的 Pedro 吗？他是我见过的在这方面最激进的人，他和他的团队就是这么做的。

Yeah uh do you know Pedro from Brex is like the most aggressive person I've met who does this with his exact team?

不知道。

No.

所以这很酷，他使用，实际上他是真正让我进入 OpenClaw 的人之一。

So which is cool like he uses Like, he actually was one of the people who like really got me into OpenClaw.

好的。

Okay.

因为他刚来，你知道，他在 YC 和我们吃了午饭。

Because he just came in and, you know, he had lunch with us at YC.

是的。

Yeah.

他向我们介绍了 OpenClaw 的氛围，说它太不安全、太危险，会删除你的整个电脑之类的。他最终做的是构建一个完整的开源层，他实际上开源了，叫做 Craptrack。

And he just walked us through the vibe around OpenClaw was that it was too unsafe and dangerous and like delete your whole computer and stuff like that. What he ended up doing was like building an entire open-source layer, which he actually has open-source called Craptrack.

好的。

Okay.

但它就像一个智能体，监视所有网络流量和 OpenClaw 所做的所有事情。

But it's like an agent that watches all the network traffic and all the things that OpenClaw does.

不错。

Nice.

然后这就是他如何解决这个难题的。就像，Brex 是最受监管的金融科技公司之一，你知道的。当然，当然。然后他得到的结果是，他让他的智能体查看他所有直接下属的会议记录。他可以看到两级以下的情况。是的。然后真正让我印象深刻的是，他可以利用他现在不参加的会议来弄清楚什么出了问题，什么有冲突，谁和谁有冲突。

And then that's how he squares the circle. Like, Brex is one of the most regulated, you know, fintech. Of course. Of course. And then the upshot of what he got is that he has his agent look at the meeting transcripts from like all of his direct reports. And he like can see that like two levels down. Yeah. And then the thing that really jumped out at me is like he can use meetings that he's not in now to figure out like what's broken, what's in conflict, like who's who's in conflict with who.

是的。

Yes.

然后有时他可以出现在会议上。他对那个合规团队过去三周的情况了如指掌。

And then sometimes he can show up at a meeting. He has perfect context from like the last 3 weeks of like that one compliance team.

是的。

Yes.

然后他可以走进去，说，“实际上，你是对的。我们按你的方式做。”然后他就可以离开。

And then he can walk in and he's like, "Actually, you're right. We're doing it your way." And then he can leave.

太酷了。

That's so badass.

是的。就像，你能想象吗，这实际上是初创公司或企业失败的决定性原因之一。

Yeah. And it's like, can you imagine like that is actually one of the defining reasons why startups or businesses fail.

是的。

Yes.

这实际上是一个管理挑战。就像，企业变得太大，无法装进一个人的脑袋。然后这是最深刻的形式，你有智能体，你有记忆，你有检索。你更多地敲打岩石，岩石给你关于正在发生的事情的原始情报。它实际上不仅可以内省你组织中两级以下的人的意见，还可以从数据中查看地面真相，对吧？就像，你知道，那是千里眼，对吧？

It's like it's actually like a management challenge. Like, the business becomes too big to fit in one person's head. And then this is like the most profound form of you have you have agents, you have memory, you have retrieval. You like zap the rocks more, the rocks give you like raw intelligence about like what's happening. And it can actually introspect not just on the opinion of like someone two levels down in your organization, but it can actually look at the ground truth from the data, right? And it's like that, you know, that's clairvoyance, right?

是的。

Yes.

你，我的意思是，一旦你脑子里有了那个，实际上世界上每个企业都可以被你接管。

You I mean if you once you have that in your brain, like actually every business in the world is available for you to take their business.

是的。是的。是的。

Yes. Yes. Yes.

就像世界基本上是建立在围绕人类构建的事物之上，而人类在任何给定时间只能记住七加减二件事。

Like the world is basically built on things that are built around human beings and human beings can only keep seven plus or minus two things in their head at any given time.

而且你知道，猜怎么着？你加上一个智能体基本上可以在脑子里装下三本《哈利·波特》的书。

And you know, guess what? You plus an agent can keep basically three Harry Potter books in your head.

你可以像步枪射击一样精准地来。

You can like rifle shot >> come.

是的，我的意思是，还有更多要来的，对吧？就像这是最糟糕的情况了。有太多加密货币的论调，其实用在 AI 上要贴切十倍，比如“这将是未来最糟糕的时刻”这种说法。

Yeah, I mean and more to come, right? Like this is as bad as it gets. There are so many cryptoisms that apply like 10 times more to AI, which is like this is the worst it will ever be actually.

是的，是的。

Yes. Yes.

所以整个世界，所有的商业，人们依赖的一切，尤其是政府，基本上还是建立在一个由人类主导的世界里，而人类是有限的，只能记住七加减二件事。

And so the whole world, like all business, all things that people rely on, government especially, is basically still built on a world that is predicated by human beings, limited human beings that can only keep seven plus or minus two things in their head.

是的。

Yes.

而且它还没准备好。它还没准备好迎接智能体能以光速思考的世界。就像你有无限量的算力，无限量的数据。然后，你知道，我的希望是，基本上产品会好上 10 倍或 100 倍。它们应该好上一千倍。

And it's not ready. It's not ready for the world where agents can think at the speed of light. Like you have unlimited amounts of it, like unlimited amounts of data. And then, you know, my hope is that basically products are going to be 10 or 100 times better. Like they should be a thousand times better.

是的。

Yes.

就像服务应该好上一千倍，对吧？

Like services should be a thousand times better, right?

是的。

Yes.

你知道，到那时，资本主义的看不见的手，如果做得好，就不是关于降低某物的成本。它实际上应该创造这些神奇的东西。就像我最近上了《华尔街日报》的播客，那个记者一直想给我下套。他不停地说，你们科技界的人，是不是想创造一个乌托邦？我当时想，这是个陷阱。我不会说得那么绝对，但当我举了一堆例子，来自你和我一起工作过、投资过的那些初创公司，我心想，也许吧，对吧？你知道，我们可能永远无法实现乌托邦，但尝试是值得的，对吧？而且我不会说硅谷或科技界会实现乌托邦。但我会非常诚恳地说，我们正在努力创造一个更美好的世界。

You know, the invisible hand of capitalism at that point, if properly done, it's not about lowering the cost of something. It should actually be creating these sort of magical things. Like I was on Wall Street Journal podcast recently and the reporter kept trying to gotcha me. He kept saying, are you guys in tech, are you trying to make a utopia? And I was like, this is a trap. I would not go so far to say, but as I went through a bunch of examples from a bunch of the startups that you and I have worked on and funded and things like that, I was like, actually maybe, right? You know, we may never achieve a utopia, but it is worthy and worth it to attempt, right? And I would not say that Silicon Valley or tech will achieve a utopia. I will very earnestly say that we are trying to bring about a better world.

也许另一种说法是，这是你未来最不快乐的时刻。

Maybe another way to say this is just this is the least happy you'll ever be.

是的。

Yeah.

你知道，因为我认为你描述的一个其他含义就是如今白领工作的工效学。你知道，你想想每一个——你在大公司工作过。就像你想想你必须穿越的那种泥潭。

You know, because I think one of the other implications of what you're describing is just the ergonomics of the sort of white-collar job today. You know, you think about every—you've worked at big companies. Like you think of just the kind of morass that you have to get through.

折磨。

Torture.

你想想沟通的损耗有多大。就像整个管理科学，那种管理阶层。也许那是从创始人模式分心的一百年，你知道，从工业革命一直到亨利·福特，一直到一些早期的硅谷创始人，然后每个人都撞上了管理的浪潮。

You think of how lossy the communication is. Like the entire management science, sort of managerial class. Like maybe that was a 100-year distraction from what was founder mode, you know, in the Industrial Revolution all the way through Henry Ford, all the way through some of the early Silicon Valley founders, and then everybody just kind of hit this tidal wave of management.

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

现在我们有了这个新模型，可以带来戏剧性的生产力提升，比如每周三天真正专注的工作。也许一天。

Now we have this new model that can lead to dramatic productivity improvements like 3 days a week of really intentional work. Maybe 1 day.

是的。

Yeah.

而其他日子你在接触草地。我认为你实际花的时间会少很多负担，不再需要总是感觉要趟过那些泥潭。

And the other days you're touching grass. And I think the time that you do spend is just so much less burdened by this stuff that you always felt like you had to wade through.

是的，没错。我的意思是，如果你看看典型的“七巨头”日常，那太疯狂了。我记得我 22 岁在 Windows Mobile 团队工作时，我们在开发那些比 iPhone 早几年的疯狂设备。我们需要 Windows 团队的集成，而他们就在雷德蒙德高速公路的另一边。

Yeah, that's right. I mean, if you look at the typical Mag 7 day-to-day, it's insane. Like I remember when I was 22 working on Windows Mobile. We were working on these crazy devices that were like years before the iPhone. And we needed integration for instance from the Windows team, which was, you know, on the other side of the highway in Redmond.

对。

Right.

然后我记得，我和我的产品经理导师，我们不得不去 Windows 团队那边，他们不回我们的邮件，不修我们的 bug，甚至不标记为“不修复”。他们就是无视我们。我们不得不带着棒球棒过去。我不知道他为什么带了一根。他不是要打人，那只是某种模糊的威胁。实际上很搞笑，我经常想起这件事。这就像什么样的官僚地狱，两个非常聪明、拿着不错技术薪水的人，被置于一个情况，那边是一个领地。我们和那个人之间隔着七层。

And then I remember, me and my sort of PM mentor, we had to go over to the Windows team and they wouldn't reply to our emails. They wouldn't fix our bugs. They wouldn't even mark it as won't fix. They just ignored us. And we had to go over there with a baseball bat. Like I don't know why he brought one. It wasn't like he was going to rough anyone up. It was just like this vague threat or something. It was actually hilarious and I think about that all the time. It's like what kind of bureaucratic hell is it where two perfectly smart people who are making like good tech money, you know, are put into a situation where there's a fiefdom over here. Literally there's like seven levels between us and that person.

是的。

Yeah.

而这个人甚至不知道我们花了四个小时试图修复一个 P3 级别的 bug，那是一个阻碍我们一千个用户的问题。

And this person doesn't even know that we spent like four hours trying to get a P3 bug fix that was like a blocker for a thousand of our users or something.

有多少人性就这样被浪费了？

And how much humanity is just wasted?

是的。

Yeah.

有多少次凌晨两点的焦虑醒来，是因为有人不想进行艰难的对话。这真的是对我们工作时间的浪费。

How many 2:00 a.m. sort of anxious wake-ups were there because somebody wanted to not have a hard conversation. Like it's a really a waste of the way we should be spending our time in working.

是的。

Yeah.

而这是“七加减二”的深刻版本。我不认为产品单元经理或他们随便什么头衔的人，想要我们这样浪费时间。我认为只是你的日子，一天没有足够的时间，而我们是极其有限的人类。

And that's a profound version of like the seven plus or minus two. Like I don't think that the product unit manager or whatever the heck their title was. Like I don't think that they wanted us to waste our time like that. I think it's just that your day, you just don't have enough hours in the day and we're incredibly limited human beings.

但你知道，是的，这很有趣。我想起我在微软的时光，我记得拿到一个 iPod，做 Windows Mobile 对 iPod 的竞争研究。我可以想象今天在微软，你可以想象一个 markdown 文件和一个按计划任务运行的技能。

But you know, yeah, it's funny. I think about my time at Microsoft and it's like I remember getting an iPod and doing competitive research for Windows Mobile versus the iPod. I can imagine today at Microsoft you can imagine a markdown file and a skill that is run on a cron.

是的。

Yeah.

然后就像，这个团队的所有人工作得怎么样？他们被阻塞了吗？被谁阻塞？外部依赖是什么？就像突然有了一个图，一个循环，然后突然产品就能真正移动了，你可以在一两天内发布一个本来需要六个月的东西。这太不可思议了。如果你能把这个扩展到整个组织，像微软这样的组织可能做不到。

And it's like how are all the people working on this team? Are they blocked? Who are they blocked by? What are the external dependencies? Like suddenly there is a graph, there's a loop, and then suddenly the products can actually just move, like you could release something in a day or two that would have taken like 6 months. It's incredible. And if you could multiply that out across the thing, like probably an org like Microsoft can't.

是的。

Yes.

但初创公司可以。

But a startup can.

是的。

Yes.

而且每个初创公司都必须这样做。

And every startup must.

是的，它们也必须这样组织。我也喜欢你所说的，几乎就像中层官僚机构应该是智能体。因为我实际上认为“掌控”有点被高估了。我喜欢至少让中层来组织工作，你知道，解决那些可以某种程度上程序化、概率性程序化的冲突。当然，高管团队可能设定方向，个人决定执行，但整个组织层，历史上很多产品经理做的，不应该是人类。

Yes, they must be organized as well. I also love what you said, it's almost like the mid-level of bureaucracy should be agents. Because I actually think that being in charge is somewhat overstated. Like I love to actually have at least the mid-level organize the work, you know, resolve the conflicts that it can somewhat programmatically, probabilistically programmatically. Of course, the executive team maybe sets direction, the individual sort of decides on execution, but just the whole organization layer, which a lot of product managers historically did, should not be human.

我的意思是，最棒的是它不必如此。你知道 Venkatesh Rao 提出的那个概念吗？就是你需要站在 API 线之上。比如 Uber 出现后，如果你是 Uber 司机，你就在 API 线之下。你应该努力站到 API 线之上。

I mean, the great thing is it doesn't have to be. Do you know how Venkatesh Rao has this thing where it's like, you need to be above the API line? Like if Uber came out, if you're an Uber driver, you're below the API line. You should be fighting to be above the API line.

我实际上认为 AI 抹去了 API 线。比如我最近看到的最有趣的事情之一是，我们投资了一家名为 Kolabtree 的 API 公司，他们发布了一个 bug 报告端点，不是给人用的，而是给使用他们软件的智能体用的。有一个 LLM，如果软件出现 bug，bug 报告会提交，但它会实时回复。

I actually think AI erases the API line. Like one of the funniest things I saw recently is there's an API company that we funded called Kolabtree, and they released a bug report endpoint that is not for humans to use, it's for agents who use their software to use. And there's an LLM where if there's a bug in the software, the bug report goes, but then it replies real time.

嗯。

Yeah.

然后它说，实际上，那是个好 bug，我们已经记录了，下周会修复，但你可以先试试这个变通方案。

And it's like, actually, that's a good bug, we filed it, we're going to fix it next week, but also try this workaround.

哇。

Wow.

然后我无法忘记这一点，因为你可以想象公司可能就是这样运作的，对吧？而不是站在 API 线之下，不得不做 API 告诉你的事情。

And then I can't get that out of my head because you could imagine that could be how companies work, right? Instead of being below the API line and having to do what the API tells you to do.

嗯。

Mhm.

实际上，这可以是一种来回互动。

Like this can be a back and forth actually.

嗯。

Mhm.

然后我总会想到，80 年代日本汽车变得如此出色的原因，实际上是一种管理技巧。他们意识到丰田生产系统意味着，如果你是流水线上干活的人，你应该被允许改变流水线，因为你是拥有最多接触点的人，能够改善自己的工作状况。

And then I always think about the reason why cars in the '80s got so good in Japan was actually a management technique. They realized the Toyota production system meant that if you are the person doing the work on the line, you should be allowed to change the line because you are the person with the most amount of contacts to be able to improve your own working situation.

没错。

That's right.

这就是为什么美国车开始变得糟糕，而日本车变得绝对出色。这是一种非常微妙而简单的方式，实际上赋予了工人权力。所以我认为这种结合很有趣。

And that's why American cars really started sucking and why Japanese cars became absolutely incredible. It's this very subtle simple way that actually empowers the worker. So there's a sort of mix that I think is interesting.

有趣的是，传统上被视为等级森严的社会，却提出了这种自下而上的工作方式，这可以说是带来了长达 40 年的代际繁荣，因为流程的力量。

Interesting, because what's traditionally seen as a hierarchical society came up with this very bottom-up way of working which led to arguably a 40-year generational run because of process power.

是的，这很美好。

Yeah. Which is beautiful.

你认为这些问题中有多少是受限于智能的？比如我们需要更聪明的模型，还是会有其他模型属性会解锁成功？

How many of these problems do you think are intelligence-bound? Like we need smarter models versus there will be other attributes of models that will unlock success.

我的意思是，说实话，一切都取决于人类。

I mean, honestly, it's all human.

呃。

Uh.

人类才是会拖慢这一切的人。

Humans are the ones who are going to slow this down.

然后。

And then.

实际上我意识到这可能是一颗白丸。

Actually I'm realizing this might be a white pill.

好的。

Okay.

所以如果你看看关于 AI 的广泛讨论的基调，都是这种悲观论调，比如所有白领工作都会消失。将会有一个永久的底层阶级。

So if you look at the tenor of what's going on just broadly in the discourse about AI, it's all this sort of doom and gloom, like all white-collar jobs are going to go away. There's going to be a permanent underclass.

是的。

Yes.

然后，有趣的是，我认为所有的官僚主义、缓慢，以及每家公司、每个机构、每个组织的七加减二，世界上所有的中层管理者。

And then, funny enough, what I think is all of the bureaucracy and the slowness and the seven plus or minus two of every company, every institution, every organization, all the middle managers in the world.

呃。

Uh.

那实际上是白丸。

That is actually the white pill.

100%。

100%.

所以你知道这些事情会比你想的更慢。

So you know these things are going to be slower than you think.

是的。

Yes.

对吧？我看了看，我们有 7000 人。他们大多数是 18 到 22 岁。

Right? I looked at, you know, we had 7,000 people. Most of them were 18 to 22 years old.

太棒了。

Amazing.

我看着他们的脸，他们都是 AI 原生的一代。他们或多或少出生在，你知道，他们在 ChatGPT 时代成年。

And I looked in their faces and they're all AI native. They were born more or less, you know, they became adults in the time of ChatGPT.

是的。

Yes.

而且这会，你知道，对我们来说，现在我们掌权了，这很好。

And it's going to, you know, and for us it's like now we run, which is nice.

那太好了，对吧？

That's great, right?

但是，你知道，想象我们 20 年前。我们是原生网络一代。我们是原生移动一代。现在我们掌权了，所以整个社会都运行在我们 18 到 22 岁时所期待的事物上。所以我认为，对我来说，白丸就是这需要 20 年，而这并不是坏事。这实际上是好事。

But, you know, imagine us like 20 years ago. We were the ones who were native to the web. We were the ones who were native to mobile. And now we run, so all of society runs on the things that we expected from when we were 18 to 22. So I think that the white pill to me is like it's going to be 20 years and that's not a bad thing. That's actually a good thing.

是的。

Yes.

社会比你想的慢得多。政府比你想的慢得多。世界上每家公司都比你想的慢得多。

Society is way slower than you think. Government is way slower than you think. Every company in the world is way slower than you think.

嗯。

Yeah.

而且这些事情有真正的护城河。微软不会消失，有结构性的原因。

And there are real moats to these things. There are structural reasons why a Microsoft isn't going anywhere.

是的。

Yes.

然后我想这有点与硅谷大多数人所说的相悖，比如“我想创业取代他们所有人。”

And then I guess this is sort of a little antithetical to what most people in Silicon Valley would say like, "I want to start up to replace all of them."

嗯。

Yeah.

而现实是他们不会，你知道吗？

And the reality is they won't, you know?

他们不会。我喜欢这个。好的，我还有两个问题要问你。一个是关于试图设想不久的将来，你认为下一台电脑会是什么样子？一台新电脑会是什么样子？

They won't. I love it. Okay, I have two more questions for you. One on this kind of sort of trying to envision the near future, what do you think the next computer looks like? What does a new computer look like?

哦，天哪。我认为短期内它可能还会保持现在的样子，但似乎难以想象它会一直保持那种形态。很明显它将是语音。

Oh, man. I think in the short term it'll probably keep looking like the way it is, but it seems inconceivable that it'll stay that form factor. It's pretty clearly going to be voice.

是的。

Yes.

我认为记忆方面有很多发展。这需要一段时间，你知道，我们现在处于每个人都对 ChatGPT 或 Claude Co-work 之类的东西感到满意的时刻。

I think there's a lot around memory. It's going to take a while to, you know, we're at this moment where everyone's sort of happy with ChatGPT or Claude Co-work or whatever it is.

嗯。

Yeah.

但我认为长期来看不会。我认为你会想要更多的上下文，你会想要那种“被优雅的机器所注视”的感觉。你会想要这个东西是仁慈的，了解你的希望、恐惧和欲望，然后不懈地以那种方式帮助你。那实际上会非常令人兴奋。

But I don't think they will be in the long term. I think you're going to want a lot more context, and you're going to want like all watched over by machines of living grace. You're going to want this thing that is benevolent, knows about your hopes, fears, and desires, and then is sort of relentlessly searching to help you in that way. And that's actually going to be really exciting.

而且你知道，实现这一点的路径可能会是计算机使用、记忆、说话人分离、数据摄取等等，我的意思是那里会有很多。

And you know, the path through that will probably be like computer use, memory, like diarization, like ingestion, like yeah, I mean I think there's going to be a lot there.

而且酷的是，这实际上需要更长时间。这不是一个，我觉得人们现在甚至没有在谈论这个。我猜明年，2027 年，将会是“套件之战”。

And the cool thing is it's actually going to take longer. This isn't a, like, I don't think people are even talking about this now. My guess is like next year, 2027, will be like the harness wars.

是的。

Yes.

你知道，然后这真的是成本问题。现在太贵了。

You know, and then it's really a cost thing. It's just too expensive right now.

是的。

Yes.

但不会一直如此。将会有一场争夺十亿消费者的战争。

But it won't be. There will be a war for a billion consumers.

是的。

Yes.

就在今天的前沿纯模型算力在两三年后可能只要 50 或 100 美元的时候。

Right when the frontier pure model compute of today will be like maybe 50 or 100 bucks in like two or three years.

嗯。

Yeah.

然后那将是浏览器之战重新开始的时候。

And then that will be when the browser wars will be back on.

是的。是的。我们已经看到了，前沿模型每 token 的价格正在走向无穷大。我的论点是每 token 无穷美元，你无法拥有它。而一周前还是前沿的模型，每 token 的价格正在跌向零。

Yes. Yes. Well, we're already seeing it like the price per token of frontier is going to infinity. My thesis is infinity dollars a token, you can't have it. And the price per token of the model that was frontier a week ago is collapsing to zero.

而且我实际上认为，对我来说，这是一个巨大的白丸，原因有很多。其中最重要的一个就是我们需要更多的消费级 AI 软件。在一个大多数消费产品都可以免费试用的世界里，如果增量分发成本很高，你就做不到这一点。软件的魔力在于零成本的增量分发。我们拥有这些神奇的原语。比如，我们有了 40 或 50 年来第一次具有情感和情感质感的计算机。多么悲剧，我们还没有构建出更雄心勃勃的消费产品。

And I actually think to me that is a huge white pill for a lot of reasons. One of the most important of which is just we need more consumer AI software. And in a world where most consumer products are free to try, you just can't do that when you have really high costs of incremental distribution. The magic of software is zero cost incremental distribution. We have these magical primitives. Like, we have computers that are emotive and have emotional texture for the first time in 40 or 50 years. What a tragedy that we haven't built more ambitious consumer products yet.

是的。

Yeah.

所以，我真的很期待这种模型经济学的变化能够解锁这些新类别。

So, I'm really excited for this sort of changing economics of models to unlock these new categories.

我的意思是，我们还太早。就像我确信，成为 open claw 的皈依者让我非常非常确信它会马上发生，然后现在我觉得那完全不对。

I mean and we're so early. Like I was convinced that like being becoming a convert to open claw made me very very convinced that it was going to happen right away and then at this point I'm like that's not correct at all.

是的。

Yeah.

嗯，你应该试试新的 ChatGPT 桌面应用，它实际上有语音模式，有点像操作员或礼宾，可以看到你所有的线程。

Well, you should try the new chat GPT desktop app actually has got a voice mode and it's sort of it's an operator or a concierge that can see all your threads.

哦，酷。

Oh, cool.

而且你可以从手机上访问它。它非常像 open claw，我相信 Peter 肯定深度参与了。对我来说，这是我们迄今为止看到的最接近真正消费级助手的东西。

And you can access it from your phone. It's very open claw-ish and I'm sure Peter had his hands all over it. To me it's the closest thing we've seen yet to a true consumer assistant.

哦，我能看到它很棒。

Oh, I can see it's awesome.

是的，是的。ChatGPT 基本上一直有最好的记忆。所以我得再试试。

Yeah, yeah. Chat GPT always had like basically the best memory. So I got to try it again.

他们做得很好。

They've done a great job.

是的。

Yeah.

好的，最后一个问题，你知道，我们谈了很多关于世界的乌托邦愿景，以及可能受智能限制的问题。你也投入了很多精力在地方政治和做一些我认为非常亲社会的事情上，但似乎更多这些问题受人类协调限制。

Okay, last question you know, we talked a lot about kind of utopian visions for the world and problems that are maybe intelligence bound. You've also put a lot of energy into sort of local politics and doing things I think are very pro-social, but it seems like more of those problems are human coordination bound.

哦，当然。

Oh, definitely.

是的，你如何获得精力去做那项工作？你知道，对我们社会的这方面有白丸吗？也许谈谈这个。

Yeah, how do you get energy to do that work? You know, is there a white pill for that aspect of our society? Maybe talk a bit about that.

我的意思是，白丸就是相信美国仍然有法治，政府中的人试图提供帮助，并且有点认真。就像它并不完美。我认为最近对我来说的白丸甚至只是在旧金山履行陪审团职责，看到这个有序的过程，真正是旧金山的一个横截面。我意识到的一件事是，实际上我们是这座城市的重要组成部分。就像我们 10% 到 20% 的人直接从事科技工作。

I mean the white pill is just believing that America still has rule of law and that people in government are trying to help and like somewhat earnest. Like it's not perfect. I think that the white pill for me recently was even just doing jury duty in San Francisco and to see like this orderly process of really a cross-section of San Francisco. One thing I realized was like actually we are a big part of the city. Like we're 10 20% of the people are like directly working in tech.

是的。

Yeah.

所以，嗯，看到一些东西，我的意思是法官真的很好。我的意思是那是一个可怕的案件，但你知道，政府不是来毁掉人们的。

And so um to see something that was I mean the judge was really good. I mean it was a horrible case, but like you know, government is not here to like ruin people.

是的。

Yeah.

所以，然后在那时，嗯，我们可以投票。

And so and then at that point um we can vote.

是的。

Yes.

就像我们实际上有发言权，然后我认为那时一切都取决于媒体。就像我认为让我非常投入的旧金山时刻是意识到你知道亚裔美国人占投票人口的 25%，约占人口的 30%，但在 COVID 期间，我们有一位地区检察官对针对我们长者的最令人发指的罪行视而不见，同时我们有一个学校董事会对只想在公立中学学习代数的亚裔美国孩子公开敌视，这让我很受触动，因为我就是东湾弗里蒙特的那个公立学校孩子。如果我不能在中学学代数，我就不能在高三学微积分。我就不能去斯坦福学工程，也不会在这里做我今天能做的任何事情，我想哦好吧，现在他们让它变得个人化了，让我理解，结果发现都是同一群人，那些想要摧毁所有数据的人，那些不想在加州或世界任何地方建造任何住房的人。就像那些想要美德信号的 NIMBY 们，他们有一些与我不相符的意识形态。我的意思是，作为一个建设者，你喜欢，嗯，你知道，词语有意义，供需存在，市场存在，激励存在，然后你知道，我认为政府是，你知道，当我们这样的人不发声，当我们不关注，不追究媒体责任，而不仅仅是政府时，事情就会变得非常混乱，这就是我认为旧金山在 COVID 期间的情况，然后仅仅通过纯粹的组织，我认为这是西区的华人围绕代数组织起来，你知道我们长者的死亡，去农贸市场，像字面上身体力行地告诉彼此他们在杀害我们，他们在杀害我们，对吧，ABC 新闻，你知道，字面上，旧金山和湾区的肉，主流媒体电视频道，不会报道反华和反亚裔犯罪。你知道，我，这真是不可理喻，对吧，我们的机构辜负了我们，伟大的是，当系统变得如此可憎时，你必须用身体去对抗它。我认为那是马里奥·萨维奥说的。这有点，我的意思是，说这个几乎有点讽刺，但另一方面，这就是我相信的，他们不能这样对我们，我们要阻止它。即使冒着个人危险，即使你知道声誉成本，我们也应该愿意承担那个成本，因为那是我们与同胞和公民的契约，你知道，如果我们不做，谁来做，没有人做，我为我们在旧金山所做的事情感到非常自豪，因为我们已经击退了那些制造了这场混乱的意识形态人群，你知道旧金山并不完美，但它正在变得更好。

Like we actually have a say and then I think everything is downstream of media at that point. Like I think the San Francisco moment that got me very engaged was realizing you know Asian Americans are 25% of the voting populace about 30% of the population but during COVID like we had a district attorney who was turning a blind eye to some of the most heinous crimes against our elders and simultaneous to that we had a school board that was openly hostile against Asian American kids who just wanted to learn algebra in public middle school which hit me because I was that public school kid in Fremont in the East Bay. Like if I couldn't have taken algebra in middle school, I couldn't take calculus by senior year. I wouldn't have been able to study engineering at Stanford and I wouldn't be here doing any of the things I get to do today and I'm like oh okay now now they've made it personal and like let me understand and it turned out to be like sort of all the same people the same people who want to destroy all the data same people who don't want to build any housing in anywhere in California or the world. Like it's sort of Nimbys who want to virtue signal who sort of have these ideologies that like don't square with mine. I mean as a builder you like well you know words have meaning like supply and demand exists markets exist like incentives exist and then you know I think that government is what you know when people like us don't speak up when we don't like pay attention and like hold our media accountable not just the government then things get very deranged and that's what San Francisco was I think around COVID and then just by sheer organization like this is I think that like the Chinese of the West Side organizing around algebra and you know the deaths of our elders going to farmers markets and like literally physically like telling each other they're killing us and they're killing us right um ABC News you know literally the meat the mainstream media TV channel of San Francisco and the Bay Area would not cover anti-Chinese and anti-Asian crime. And you know I I it's like unconscionable right like our institutions failed us and the great thing is like when the system becomes so odious you've got to put your body on it. I think that was Mario Savio. And it's kind of I mean it's ironic almost to like say that but on the other hand like that's what I believe like they can't do this to us and we're going to stop it. And even at like personal peril even at you know reputational cost like we should be willing to take that cost because that's our covenant with our fellow man and our fellow citizen you know and if we don't do it who's going to do it like nobody does it and I'm super proud of what we're doing in San Francisco because we have beat back that ideological set of people who like created this mess and you know it's not perfect in San Francisco but it's getting better.

现在太棒了。

It's amazing right now.

我的意思是，我想我看到 Lori 可能是全国最受欢迎的市长或政治家。是的。事情变得好多了。每个人都能看到，感受到这种氛围。有些人说我想知道为什么，但我认为对于我们这些知道的人来说，我们看到你不仅对行业、创业社区、技术，而且对社区的管理是重要的催化剂之一。所以感谢你做那项工作。

I mean I think I saw that Lori might be the most popular mayor or politician in the entire country. Yeah. Things have gotten so much better. Everybody sees it feels it in the vibe. Some people say I wonder why but I think for those of us who know we see that your sort of stewardship not just of the industry of the startup community of sort of technology but also of the community is one of the big catalysts. So thank you for doing that work.

非常感谢。是的。所以，我认为旧金山应该成为在美国每个蓝色城市推动这一点的灯塔，你知道，这就是 Gary's list.org 的基本内容，我们如何把在这里学到的经验教训，洛杉矶需要这个，纽约需要这个，明尼阿波利斯需要这个，西雅图需要这个。

Thank you so much. Yeah. So and I think San Francisco should be the beacon for pushing this back in every blue city in America as you know I that's what Gary's list.org is basically like how do we take the lessons that we learned here and like LA needs this, New York needs this, Minneapolis needs this, Seattle needs this.

嗯，而且让我们找到，你知道，连接这两者，那种你知道的文化社会和科技，让我们找到非常本地化的方式，让这项技术解锁的雄心得以展现。你知道，我上周在伦敦，你谈了一点什么是可能的。就像嘿，你不必对美国 AI 如何影响你的社会有一个美国愿景。如果你想让 NHS 变得不可思议，那么你可以用这项技术做到。

Well, and also let's find you know to connect the two that sort of you know culture society and technology like let's find very local ways for the ambition that this technology unlocks to show up. You know, I was in London last week and you were talking a little bit what's possible. It's like hey, you don't have to have an American vision for how AI impacts your society. If you want the NHS to be incredible then like you can do that with this technology.

所以，野心在社区中本地化的机会，我觉得真的很有意思。

So the kind of opportunity for ambition to be very localized in our communities, I think, is something really interesting.

是的，所以要本地行动，比如照顾好身边的人。你知道吗，我觉得很有趣，很多人对全国层面非常痴迷。我的意思是，我们现在通常想关注全国。但你知道吗？我关心旧金山，我关心住房，我关心犯罪，我关心治疗和康复。

Yeah, and so yeah, act local, like take care of the people right next to you. You know, I think it's funny, so many people get very, very obsessed with national. I mean, we want to look at national generally right now. It's like, you know what? Like, I care about San Francisco, I care about housing, I care about crime, I care about treatment and recovery.

嗯。

Yeah.

如果我们这样做，我们就能拥有我们想要生活的社会。然后，你知道，如果我们解决了本地问题，州和全国层面就会自我修复，因为在五年或十年的时间里，那些在上面获胜的人，他们会通过一个功能正常的系统上来，这个系统会拒绝不合理的事情，会对对人民有益的事情说“是”。

And if we do that, like we can have the society we want to live in. And then, you know, if we fix local, like state and national will fix itself, because on a five or ten year basis, the people who win up there, they will come up through a system that's functional, and about saying no to things that don't make sense, about saying yes to the things that are awesome for the people.

我喜欢这个。好了，Gary，这只是第一次，以后还有很多次。谢谢，兄弟。

I love it. All right, Gary. First of many. Thanks, brother.

谢了，兄弟。

Thanks, bro.

这太棒了。

This is great.

酷，是的。

Cool. Yeah.