Gary Tan 谈旧金山、科技与 YC

我是 Lightseed 的 Michael McNano，这里是《Out of Office》。今天和我对话的是传奇人物 Gary Tan。Gary 是创业加速器 Y Combinator（也就是 YC）的 CEO，YC 已经资助了 5000 家初创公司，总价值达 8000 亿美元。我来到旧金山拜访 Gary 的家乡，和他聊聊他通往 YC 的历程，以及他对创始人下大赌注的理念。在开始之前，我们先在他家对面的多洛雷斯公园碰面，然后深入聊了这座城市本身、政治、信仰，甚至还有 Gary 的桑拿房。敬请欣赏。

I'm Michael McNano from Lightseed and this is Out of Office. Today I'm talking with the legendary Gary Tan. Gary is the CEO of the startup accelerator Y Combinator, or YC as it's known, which has funded 5,000 startups representing a combined $800 billion of value. I came out to San Francisco to visit Gary in his hometown and talk about his path to YC and his philosophy on making big bets on founders. To kick things off, we met up across the street from his home in the beautiful Dolores Park before diving into a conversation about the city itself, politics, faith, and even Gary's sauna. Enjoy.

很高兴见到你，兄弟。

Great to see you, man.

怎么样，兄弟？

What's up, man?

很高兴见到你，兄弟。

Great to see you, brother.

好的。谢谢你来做这个。

All right. Thanks for doing this.

不，谢谢你邀请我。

No, thanks for having me.

嗯，这地方真美。

Um, this is a beautiful place.

我觉得这是世界上最美丽的地方之一。

This is one of the most beautiful places in the world. I think

我们现在在旧金山，你的家乡。嗯，你知道，我们期待这次见面已经有一段时间了。我想和你聊的事情大概很明显：种子投资，也许还有你的一些政治参与，但我觉得我们应该从旧金山开始。

we are in San Francisco, your home city. And um as you know, you know, we've been we've been looking forward to this for some time. The things that I really want to talk to you are probably quite obvious. Uh seed investing, maybe maybe some of your political involvement, but I think we should probably start with San Francisco.

嗯，因为我们就在这里。嗯，跟我讲讲这个公园吧。你就住在附近，对吧？

Um cuz this is where we are. And um yeah, tell me a little bit about this park. Like you live right near here, right?

是的。我记得大概在 2008 年做我的初创公司时，这里就是我的梦想之地。

Yeah. I mean, I remember basically like when I was working on my startup back in what 2008. This is like my dream area

真的吗？

really.

是的。所以，能搬回这个地区真是莫大的福气。而且这里就是发明 mission burrito 的地方。我最喜欢的地方就在这附近。

Yeah. So, and then it's just such a blessing to, you know, be able to move back to this area. And this is where they invented the mission burrito. My favorite place is right here at place.

我想是 24 街那边的 La Takaria。不过，这一带就是这样的地方。这个公园有点像圣地，在天气好的时候，每个人都想在这里闲逛。

I think it was La Takaria down this way on 24th. But yeah, this is sort of the area. This park is sort of like the mecca for where I don't know, everyone just wants to hang out on a beautiful day.

是的，太美了。嗯，你不是旧金山人，但你来自湾区，对吧？你来自弗里蒙特。

Yeah, it's gorgeous. Um, and you're I mean you're like you're not from San Francisco, but you're from the Bay, right? You're from Fremont.

是的，我在湾区那边长大。嗯，这一带挺有意思的，因为我 18 岁，其实 17 岁的时候还在上高中，就坐 BART 进来，再转 16 路到波特雷罗山，那是我学编程的地方。当时正好是 Web 1.0 热潮，我学会了做基本的数据库驱动网站。那时候我什么都不懂，但我通过冷邮件进入了一家叫 Adjacency 的设计公司，那家公司为史蒂夫·乔布斯做了第一个苹果电商网站。

Yeah, I grew up in uh you know over the Bay. Um this whole area is kind of funny because when I was 18 years old, so actually 17, uh I was still in high school. I like took BART in and took the 16 into Petro Hill and that was where I learned how to code. There's like the web 1.0 know boom was happening like and uh I learned to make you know basically databasebacked websites back then and uh you know I didn't know anything but I managed to like cold email my way into this design firm called Adjacency and that was the firm that made the first Apple e-commerce store for Steve Jobs.

哇。

Wow.

所以我参与了很多品牌的项目，比如 Power Bar、Specialized、Espri 和 Harman Carden。我当时才 17 岁，每小时赚大概 25 美元。我觉得自己已经混得很好了，你知道吗。

So I got to work on all these brands like uh Power Bar and Specialized and Espri and Harman Carden. I was like, you know, se 17 years old. I was like making, I don't know, 25 bucks an hour. I was like, I had it made, you know.

太棒了。是啊。

That's awesome. Yeah.

所以你当时会坐火车上来？大概要多久？

And so you would take the train up here? Like how how long does that take?

大概一个小时。嗯，是的，挺久的。不过

That was like an hour. I mean, yeah, it was a while. But

这就像我去纽约一样。我在长岛长大，会坐火车进纽约市。

that was like me for New York City. I I grew up on Long Island and I would take the train into New York City.

嗯

Um

我们是桥和隧道族。

we're the bridge and bridge and tunnel.

是的，没错。我们是桥和隧道族。

Yes, exactly. We are we are bridge and tunnel.

但现在看看我们。

But look at us now.

是啊。你觉得，也许在你做那件事之前，在湾区长大是如何塑造你对科技的兴趣的？你是怎么进入这一行的，是因为周围都是科技吗？

Yeah. How do you think I mean maybe before you were doing that like how did how did growing up in the Bay Area kind of shape your interests in tech like you know how did how did you get into it all just cuz you're surrounded by it or

基本上，在湾区就像它融在水里一样，即使在你那边也一样。

I mean basically being in the Bay Area is like it's in the water right like even down there where you were

确实，我觉得弗里蒙特比旧金山更靠近硅谷，对吧？

definitely I mean I thought Fremont's even closer to Silicon Valley than San Francisco is right

所以你有苹果、瑟蒂诺，湾区经济的一切都来自科技。有一点生物科技，但主要是半导体。硅谷最初是硅，现在又变回硅了，这挺有趣的。

and so you got you know Apple and Certino and then Everything about the Bay Area economy kind of comes from tech. Like there's a little bio, but there's semiconductors, you know, Silicon Valley is Silicon initially and then it's kind of funny these days it's Silicon again.

是的，没错。我是说，这里很美。你建议我们在这里见面，当我开车过来时，我想：“哇，开始这次对话真是不可思议的一天和地点。”所以，你知道，我经常来这里工作，来谈交易或开董事会。周六早上在这里和创始人聊聊。

Yeah, that's true. Yeah. I mean, it's it's gorgeous here. I mean, you you suggested that we hang out here and when I pulled up uh I was like, "Wow, what an unbelievable uh day and place to be starting this." I So, as you know, I I come here quite often for work. I'm coming here for deals or board meetings. talk to a founder here on a Saturday morning.

是的。我想说，对于一个住在这里的人，你会给像我这样的人什么建议，去欣赏旧金山的美？因为这里很美，但至少我不总是把美和旧金山联系起来。我在这里时只想着工作。你得带上家人。下来走走。那边街角就是我们家人最喜欢的游乐场。

Yeah. I was going to say like for somebody who lives here. I mean, what advice would you have for somebody like me to kind of like appreciate the beauty of San Francisco cuz this is this is gorgeous and I I don't know at least I don't always associate kind of beauty with San Francisco. I think about just work constantly when I'm here. Got to bring the family. Come down. Right down the street over there is uh our family's favorite playground. Okay.

然后你走到这边，有家冰淇淋店，太棒了。

And then you stroll down right over here and uh byite crearyy. It's incredible.

像手工做的。

Like homemade.

是的。来一份海盐焦糖。在 Elwan Sabor 买个 mission burrito。那是我的最爱。

Yeah. Like get the salted caramel. Get a mission burrito at Elwan Sabor. That's my favorite jam.

嗯，18 街上的 Pizzeria Delphina 也很棒。太好了。

Um Pizzeria Delphina like right here on 18th is incredible. This is great.

如果你在这附近订了 Airbnb，去逛一下 Bi-Rite 市场，那里有最新鲜的农产品，所有最新鲜的特色食品，就在这家小店。

Uh if you get an Airbnb around here, go to buy market and it's just like the freshest produce like all the freshest specialty everything and this tiny little store.

是的。

Yeah.

所以，是的，我觉得这里就是我自己的小天堂。

So yeah, it's I mean this is my own little form of heaven I think.

而且这里真的很好。我知道有很多关于旧金山及其问题的讨论，但似乎，我不知道，感觉它变得越来越好了。

And it's really nice. I mean, I I know there's been a lot of talk about San Francisco and some of the issues, but like it seems like it's I don't know. It feels like it's getting nicer and

我们回来了。

we're so back.

我们回来了。

We are back.

旧金山有点像单一产业的小镇。

San Francisco like it's a little bit of a one industry town.

对，对，没错。

Right. Right. Exactly.

有人说“科技人滚出去”，那实际上是在呼吁摧毁这座城市。这有点像后真相时代的真相末日。如果你建一个网站，让它看起来足够官方，那么，你知道，LLM 会读到这些。OpenAI、ChatGPT、Perplexity、Gemini，它们都会读到这些内容，然后它就在网络空间里了。我觉得有一种奇怪的反科技文化，在旧金山长大的人往往感觉不到科技的繁荣会惠及他们。我认为这实际上是社区和政府的某种失败，而这些是我们能有所作为的。

And for someone to say like actually get out techies. Like that's actually a call to, you know, let's destroy the city. This is sort of like the post-truth apocalypse of truth. Like if you just put up a website and make it look official enough, like well, you know, LLMs read this. You know, Open Eye, Chat PT, Perplexity, like Gemini, like they'll read these things and it's sort of in the ether now. I feel like there's this weird uh anti- sort of tech culture where people who grew up in San Francisco often don't feel like the prosperity of tech like sort of goes over to them and I think that that's actually you know somewhat of a failure of community and it's failure of government and those are things we can do something about.

你得解释一下 Sonaggate。我显然在 Twitter 上看到了很多。人们以为你搞什么疯狂的光照派。

You got to explain Sonaggate. I mean obviously I've seen it all over Twitter. People think that like you do some crazy Illuminati

你呢？有没有未来的政治抱负，也许在 YC 之后什么的？

What about you? like any any future political aspirations maybe after YC or something.

哦，也许 10 到 20 年后吧。

Oh, I mean maybe like 10 20 years from now.

你会做什么？你会成为旧金山市长吗？

What would you do? You're going to be the mayor of San Francisco.

所以这大概是一个很好的过渡，进入我真正想和你聊的话题——政治。我觉得，你知道，对于一个关注你推特账号的人来说，而且我们彼此也算有点了解，你似乎对旧金山本地政治有浓厚的兴趣。这兴趣是从哪来的？

So this is probably a good segue into something that I actually want to talk to you about, which is politics. I feel like, you know, for somebody who follows your Twitter account and, you know, we know each other a little bit, you seem to have a strong interest in local San Francisco politics. Where did that come from?

我是说，那是……我记得当时在 Clubhouse 上。我觉得 Mike Solano 在上面，还有 Bology 也在，然后当时的地方检察官 Chesa Boudin 也跳进了聊天室，我们就在那儿，你知道，对旧金山真的在分崩离析这件事感到抓狂。而他在那儿对所有人进行煤气灯操控，说犯罪率其实在下降，而且，你知道，有件事让我很触动。我是说，那是在封锁期间，对吧？

I mean, it was... I remember being on Clubhouse. I think Mike Solano was on there, like Bology was on there, and then this guy who was the district attorney at the time, Chesa Boudin, jumped in the chat, and we're just, you know, freaking out about how San Francisco is really falling apart. And he's in there gaslighting everyone about the crime is actually down and, you know, there was something that struck me. I mean, this was in the middle of the lockdown, right?

对。那时候情绪可以说是最高涨的时候。我是说，那段时间每个人都有点疯狂。

Right. When emotions are like sort of at their highest. I mean, everyone's a little crazy during that time.

但我意识到，这个人，我是说，可能对人们，对旧金山的人们来说真的很危险。你可以走进来，然后说一些对任何能看懂数据或真正生活在社区里、看到亚裔老人正在经历什么的人来说都明显不真实的话。到那时，我已经对 Hanako Abe 的死感到非常难过。你知道，这件事发生在 2020 年除夕。就像那种，你知道，一个曾被逮捕过大约 30 次的重罪惯犯，吸毒后疯狂驾驶，在 Market Street 撞死了那两位女性。而且你知道，他基本上立刻就被放了出来。看起来那时候根本不会有任何问责。我开始深入挖掘，意识到实际上旧金山正在发生一场社会实验。

But I realized that here's someone who, I mean, might actually be pretty dangerous to people, to the people of San Francisco, like that you could walk in and sort of say things that were just clearly not true for anyone who could read the numbers or actually live in the community and see what was happening to Asian-American elders. By then, I was really upset about the death of Hanako Abe. And, you know, this happened on New Year's Eve in 2020. It was like sort of this, you know, someone who had been, you know, arrested like 30 times, felony sort of repeat offender, was on drugs, drove crazy down Market Street and killed these two women on New Year's Eve. And you know, he was basically immediately let out. It seemed like there was going to be no accountability at this point. And I started digging in and realizing actually there was like this social experiment that was happening to San Francisco.

这是在那次 Clubhouse 对话之前。我是说，你当时已经很沮丧了，就像为什么这会发生，你知道，旧金山在某些方面是一个非常特殊的城市，因为它实际上有 35% 到 40% 的亚裔美国人。

This is before the conversation on Clubhouse that time. I mean, you had already been getting really upset like how why was this happening to, you know, in San Francisco is a very unusual city in some respect because it's actually 35-40% Asian-American.

所以看到我们的长辈，你知道，被刺伤、被残害、被杀害，你知道，尾随回家、入室抢劫，却没有任何问责，有一个地方检察官，你知道，地方检察官本应负责的。是的。

And so to see our elders being, you know, stabbed and sort of maimed, killed, you know, follow home, home invasion robberies and for there to be no accountability, to have a district attorney, you know, the district attorney is supposed to be accountable. Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

但我们选出了一个明确表示不会真正做这类事情的人。而有人进来却说犯罪率在下降，说我们社区的真实经历是错的。像这样一个人是民选的，而我，你知道，在那一刻有点失控了。与此同时，有一个人，我现在认为她是我非常重要的导师，Nancy Tung。她实际上和 Chesa 竞选过。她在那个 Clubhouse 里说：“嘿，科技界的朋友们，如果你们想了解旧金山政治到底怎么回事，我们是怎么走到这一步的？我很乐意和这里的任何人一起散散步。”

But we had elected someone who explicitly was like not really doing anything like that. And for someone to come in and sort of say that crime was down, that the lived experience of our communities was so wrong. Like this is someone who's elected and I, you know, sort of lost it at that point. And simultaneous to that, there was someone who I now consider a really big mentor to me, Nancy Tung. She actually ran against Chesa. And she, in that Clubhouse, said, "Hey tech people, if you want to understand what's going on with SF politics, how did we get here? I'm happy to just go on a walk with anyone here."

哦，哇。

Oh wow.

我们基本上就像我们现在在 Noe Valley 这样散了步。她就把一切都摊开来说，这就是为什么，这就是这些人，你知道，是怎么掌权的。然后那次对话中困难的部分是，那时候旧金山我们已经失去了一切。你知道，我们有一个相对温和但相当无力的市长 London Breed。但市议会完全被俘获了。实际上那不是唯一的问题。对我来说安全是第一位的。第二是教育。我意识到即使在现在的旧金山，如果你是一个八年级学生，实际上很难上代数课。

We basically went on a walk kind of like the walk we're on in Noe Valley. And she just laid it out like this is why this is, this is how these, you know, sort of people, you know, got into power. And then the hard part from that conversation was like at that point SF we had lost everything. Like the, you know, we had a relatively moderate but kind of powerless mayor in London Breed. But the board of supervisors was completely captured. That wasn't the only issue actually. Like safety is number one to me. Second was like education. Like I realized that even in San Francisco now, if you're an eighth grader, it's actually very hard to take algebra.

嗯。

Huh.

这，我是说，我作为科技行业的人，在那一刻意识到，你知道，我小时候有时会食物不安全。能够上公立学校，接触到微积分和优质教育，让我能上斯坦福，让我能学习计算机工程。我的一生都是靠，你知道，优质的公立学校教育建立起来的。所以听到这些，你知道，我们把成千上万的人带到旧金山来创业。他们创办的公司雇佣了成千上万甚至几十万、可能几十万的人。那些人有孩子，组建家庭，我们怎么能那样做？然后他们的孩子甚至无法在中学接触到代数。而且，这里的政治变得如此疯狂，以至于为了公平，我是说，老实说，出于某种病态的同情，他们去摧毁了我们真正，我是说，支撑社会的东西，对吧？你想要安全，你想要你的孩子，我们希望我们的长辈安全，我们希望我们的家庭安全，我们希望我们的孩子能够获得良好的教育。

Which, I mean, I realized at that point as a person in tech, like, you know, I grew up sometimes food insecure. Being able to go to public school and get access to calculus and a great education allowed me to go to Stanford, allowed me to study computer engineering. Like my whole life got set up from, you know, what was a great public school education. And so to hear that, you know, we are bringing thousands of people to San Francisco to start companies. They're starting companies that employ thousands to tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of people. They're having those people are having kids, building their families, and like how could we do that? And then their kids cannot even get access to algebra in middle schools. And like that, the politics here got so crazy that over equity, I mean honestly out of like sort of this pathological empathy, they were going and sort of destroying the very thing that we actually, I mean, that's underpinning society, right? Like you want safety, you want your kids, like we want our elders to be safe, we want our families to be safe, and we want our kids to be able to have access to good educations.

是啊，这些很难反驳。

Yeah, it's hard to argue with any of that.

这太疯狂了。

It's nuts.

所以这之后你就开始真正深入参与了。我是说，我觉得你，我是说，再次从远处观察，举办活动，帮助，你知道，帮助候选人筹款之类的。还有什么？告诉我你做了什么？

So this is like you started getting really involved after this. I mean, I feel like you, I mean, just again observing from afar, throwing events, helping, you know, helping candidates raise money, things like that. Like what else? Tell me what did you do?

基本上，有趣的是这一切都是由 Twitter 驱动的。所以我开始关注那些深入细节的人，比如经营 Stop Crime SF 这类非营利组织的人。我开始关注那些深入细节的人，他们看预算，他们在市政府里，然后我在某个时候意识到，Twitter 和 X，你知道，一方面，它不是真实生活。另一方面，它确实是，因为如果你去看，不被信息流的内容分心，如果你真的主动搜索那些直接谈论正在发生的事情的人，一切都可以看到。我认识了他们所有人。我们开始线下见面。这实际上就像一个 BBS 聚会。就像一个论坛聚会，就像你见到来自 Usenet 的人一样。

Basically, what's funny about it is it was all driven by Twitter. So I started following people who were all the way in the weeds, like people who ran nonprofits like Stop Crime SF. I started following people who went all the way in the weeds, who look at the budgets, who are in the city government, and then I realized at some point like Twitter and X, like, you know, on the one hand, it's not real life. On the other hand, it really is because you can, if you look and you're not distracted by whatever the feed says, if you're actually searching actively for people who speak directly about what is happening, it's all available to see. And I met all of them. It was like we started meeting in person. It's like a BBS meetup actually. It's like a forum meetup, like you're meeting people from Usenet or something.

我，你知道，我们暴露年龄了，因为，我是说，那是……

I'm, you know, we're dating ourselves because, I mean, that's...

就像见面，就像那是一次互联网聚会，但就是这样。

It's like meeting, it's like it was like an internet meetup, but that's what it is.com.

太棒了。是的。我觉得，你知道，我看到你经常谈论的其他一些事情，EMB 对你来说似乎是一件大事。我猜，你知道，我只能想象那和住房成本上升有关，可能是科技行业造成的，我猜。

That's amazing. Yeah. I feel like, you know, some of the other things I saw you talk a lot about, EMB seemed to be a really big thing for you. I'm guessing, you know, I can only imagine that has to do with sort of the rising cost of housing, probably as a result of tech, I'm guessing.

是的。我是说，那，事实证明就是同一批人不想建住房。他们实际上恨我们。他们恨科技。他们恨丰裕。

Yeah. I mean, that's, it turns out it's all the same people who don't want to build housing. They actually hate us. They hate tech. And they hate abundance.

而且你知道，纽约很有意思，因为它是一个如此多元化的城市。那里有太多不同的行业。而旧金山呢，有点像单一的产业城市。

And you know, it's interesting like New York is fascinating because it's such a multifaceted city. Like there's just so many different industries. And you know, San Francisco though, like it's a little bit of a one industry town.

对，对，没错。

Right. Right. Exactly.

而如果有人说什么“科技人滚出去”，那实际上是在号召，你知道，让我们毁掉这座城市。让我们真的……

And for someone to say like actually get out techies, like that's actually a call to, you know, let's destroy the city. Like let's actually...

而且你知道，这并不需要太多。你可以去奥克兰看看现在那里发生了什么。他们失去了所有的体育队伍。现在它实际上是全国最危险的地方之一。而且你知道，如果我们让旧金山变成奥克兰，你知道，我在湾区长大。我真的很爱这个地方。我不会离开。我不会去奥斯汀。我不会离开这座城市。没有地方可逃。所以我们说我们不会离开。我们要留下来战斗。

And you know, it doesn't take a lot. Like you can just go to Oakland and see what's going on in Oakland right now. Like they lost all their sports teams. It's actually one of the most dangerous places in the country now. And you know, if we let San Francisco become Oakland, like you know, I grew up in the Bay Area. I really love this place. And I'm not leaving. Like I'm not going to Austin. I'm not like leaving the city. Like there's no place to run to. So we just said we're not going to leave. We're going to stand and fight.

但你们回来了。就像你一分钟前说的，我们回来了。那么发生了什么？什么改变了？你，也许以某种小方式，影响了这一切？

But you're back. Like you said over a minute ago, we're back. So like what happened? What changed? How did you and you maybe some small way impact that?

我的意思是，我认为只是奥弗顿窗口发生了转变。我开始说那些通常人们认为会因此被解雇的话。

I mean, I think there was just a shift in Overton window. Like I just started saying things that normally like people would think they're going to get fired for.

嗯，比如“哦不，这其实不行。”

Um things like, "Oh no, it's actually not okay."

呃，我们的长辈正在被，你知道，刺伤、枪击和殴打致死。我，你知道，我们要求对此问责。而且嗯，我什么都没发生。是的。

Uh that our elders are being, you know, stabbed and shot and beaten to death. Like I, you know, we want accountability for that. And um nothing happened to me. Yeah.

如果说有什么的话，比如……

Like if anything, like...

在背后，人们开始说：“哦，是的，那其实是我们真正相信的。我们只是不敢说。”而且你知道，在背后，你知道有趣的是什么，让我震惊的是，人们花费数百万美元，如此多的个人资本在全国性竞选中，然后完全发疯，然而你知道，非常少量的钱，比如我捐赠的不超过几十万美元。我的意思是，那是一大笔钱。是的，当然。

In the background, people started saying, "Oh yeah, like that's actually what we really believe. We're just too afraid to say that." And uh you know in the background like you know what's funny it's it blows my mind people spend millions of dollars like so much of their personal capital on national races and just like go completely bonkers and yet like you know very small amounts of money like I didn't donate more than maybe a couple hundred grand. I mean it's a lot of money. Yeah, of course.

但是，你知道，科技对我真的非常眷顾，而且在全球意义上相对少量的钱投入政治和地方事务，能产生很大的影响。

But like, you know, tech has been really really kind to me and like a small a relatively small in the global sense amount of money in politics and local moves the needle a lot.

那么，你最近看到的一些大的积极变化是什么？

So, what are what are some of the like big positive changes you you've seen recently?

是的。我的意思是，最大的事情是我们罢免了切斯·博丁，那个地区检察官，他实际上，我是说，我认为他在公开地伤害亚裔美国人社区。比如你知道，有一个受害者，一个亚裔祖父，名叫维查·拉塔纳帕克蒂，在视频中被冷血谋杀，而他去媒体说，哦，肇事者只是在发脾气。我就想，你怎么能在一个亚裔美国人占 35% 的城市里说这种话，如果我们允许这种事发生，亚裔美国人的正义在哪里？这是典型的“停止仇恨亚裔”事件。我们把他赶下台了。所以我们现在有了很棒的地区检察官，布鲁克·詹金斯。嗯，我们罢免了三位学校董事会成员，现在代数回来了，虽然在我看来有点慢，但至少提上了日程。

Yeah. I mean, the big thing is uh we recalled Chase Bodin, that district attorney who like literally was just I mean, I think he was openly victimizing the Asian-American community. like you know there would be someone who was a victim of like literally like you know an Asian grandpa named Vicha Ratanapakti was murdered in cold blood uh on video and uh he went to the media and said oh the uh the perpetrator was just having a temper tantrum and I'm like how can you say that in a city where like if Asian-Americans allow this to happen in a city where we control we're 35% of the population like where's the justice for Asian-Americans? like this is, you know, a a classic stop Asian hate thing. And we got him out. And so we have a great DA now, Brooke Jenkins. Um we recalled three school board members and now algebra is coming back a little bit too slowly in my opinion, but it's at least on the map.

是的。呃，我们重新夺回了监督委员会。所以我们现在实际上有一个温和派、亲商业、亲公共安全的监督委员会，尽管你知道，这些事情来来去去，对吧？

Yeah. Uh and we retook the board of supervisors. So we actually have uh a Yimi moderate pro pro business and pro uh public safety board of supervisors for the moment, though, you know, these things come and go, right?

那你呢？有没有什么未来的政治抱负？也许在 YC 之后什么的？

What about you? Like any any future political aspirations? Maybe after YC or something?

哦，我的意思是也许 10 到 20 年后。

Oh, I mean maybe like 10 20 years from now.

你会做什么？你会成为旧金山市长还是……

What would you do? You're going to be the mayor of San Francisco or...

我的意思是说实话，我非常专注于金钱和媒体，然后你知道，我实际上认为当选官员的实际工作对我来说似乎很糟糕。

I mean honestly like I'm pretty focused on money and media and then you know I I actually think the uh the actual job of being an elected official uh seems terrible to me.

看起来很难。我们一会儿要去，我想是你最喜欢的酒吧，但我很想看看你的地方……

It seems pretty hard. We're going to go to I think like your favorite bar in a little bit, but uh I would love to check out your place on...

过来吧。

Come on over.

告诉我我们要去哪里。我，我，我看到远处的房子。它有点像我看到的最高的东西。这是什么地方？

Tell me about where we're going. I I I see the house in the distance. It's kind of like the tallest thing I see. Like what what is what is this place?

是的。所以，呃，我们正前往我的活动屋。所以，好的。

Yeah. So, uh we're headed to my event house. So, okay.

当我在 YC 接受这份工作时，我意识到一件事，联合创始人时代正在结束，实际上我的很多工作就是把人们聚在一起。

One of the things when I was uh taking on the job at YC, I realized like co was ending and actually a lot of my job is just bringing people together.

是的。

Yeah.

所以，呃，这个东西上市了，我真的很沉迷于 Redfin 和 Zillow。

And so, uh, this thing came up on the market and I'm really addicted to Red Fin and Okay.

而且我得到了一个疯狂的价格。我得到了，你知道，可能便宜了 150 万美元。所以它在那里闲置了大约 2 年，整个疫情期间都没有报价。

And I got a crazy deal on it. I got like, you know, maybe a million and a half bucks off the thing. So, it was just sitting there for maybe like 2 years with no offers all the way through CO.

然后我说，好吧，我可以利用这样一个地方。我们来看看。它以前是一座教堂，呃，现在被改造成了公寓。然后我们用它来举办政治活动。我们有时也用它来办 YC 的事情。所以我意识到我有点想要一个可以邀请人们过来的地方。

And then I said, well, I could use a place like this. We're going to see it. It's a used to be a church and uh, now it got converted into condos. And then we use it for, you know, political events. We use it for YC stuff sometimes. So, I realized like I kind of want to have a place where I can just have people over.

是的。

Yeah.

而且嗯，就是召集大家。所以这就是其中之一。是的。这是我的房子。

And um just convene. And so that's one of the things that Yeah. This is my house.

那真的很酷。你需要做很多工作吗？我觉得任何时候有一个地方闲置，然后可能降价，那可能是个大工程。

That's really cool. Did you have to do a lot of work? I feel like anytime there's a place that's just sitting and then maybe there's a price reduction, it's like it's probably going to be a project.

哦，我的意思是幸运的是它已经可以入住了。所以是的，这里以前是……

Oh, I mean luckily it was uh good to go. So yeah, this is used to be...

拎包入住。

Turn key.

是的。呃，我相信是 1902 年。它在历史名录上，是“第二科学家教会”。

Yeah. Uh 1902, I believe. It's in the historical register and it was uh the church of the second scientist.

那是什么？

What is that?

呃，它是基督教教会之一，你知道，有点像基督教科学教会，然后嗯……

Uh it was one of the Christian church, you know, kind of Christian science churches and then um...

我想它闲置了一段时间，因为你知道，旧金山的很多教堂，你知道，会众越来越少，然后开发商不得不投入大量资金进行抗震加固，这就是为什么它被改造成了公寓。所以，我们会看到的。

I think it was just sitting for a while because you know as a lot of churches in San Francisco went like you know the congregation got smaller and smaller and then uh developer had to put in a bunch of stuff to make it seismically good and that that's why it got converted into condos. So, we'll get to we'll get a look at it.

我很期待去看看。

I'm excited to check it out.

是的，我们去看看吧。

Yeah, let's check it out.

是的，这有点像主洞穴。我们有健身房，但呃，这是著名的“桑拿门”。

Yeah, this sort of the main cave. We got the gym, but uh this is the famous sauna gate.

所以，这就是“桑拿门”的地方。我要来个舒服的冷水浴。我不会让你也体验这个，但是……

So, the place of sauna gate. So, I'm going to have a nice cold plunge. I'm not going to subject this to you, but...

这真的是一个很棒的体验。

It is really an awesome experience.

这都是布莱恩·约翰逊认可的吗？

Is this all Brian Johnson approved?

哦，是的，当然。

Oh, yeah, definitely.

好的，酷。他帮忙设计了这些。

All right, cool. He helped design this.

不，但他肯定……你需要确保你冰敷你的蛋蛋。

No, but he was definitely... You need to make sure you ice your balls.

好吧，行。你得解释一下“桑拿门”。我的意思是，显然我在推特上到处都看到了。人们认为你在这里搞什么疯狂的共济会仪式，到底怎么回事？

Well, all right. You got to explain Saunagate. I mean, obviously I've seen it all over Twitter. People think that like you do some crazy Illuminati in this like what's going on?

还有冷水浴。就是这样。我的意思是，就像我说的，我们举办很多活动。我的意思是，我自己每年资助大约 50 家公司，当然，所有 YC 合伙人都是如此。

And cold plunge. That's it. I mean, like I said, we host a lot. I mean, I fund, you know, 50 companies or so a year myself, like all the YC partners do, of course.

然后我喜欢招待人们来吃晚餐。所以，我们邀请了大约二三十位创始人上楼吃晚餐。然后我刚刚布置好这个。

And then I like to host people for dinner. And so, we had like, you know, a cohort of about, you know, 20 30 founders over for dinner upstairs. And then I had just gotten this set up.

然后，有几个桑拿爱好者，他们站在那里享受。他们说：“哦，我们能跳进去吗？”我说：“好啊，为什么不呢？去吧。”对吧。我没有……我没有。

And so, and there were a couple, you know, sauna afficionados that were, you know, they're standing partaking. They were like, "Oh, can we jump in?" And I was like, "Yeah, why not? Go for it." Right. I didn't I didn't.

然后这些人过来，他们拍了张自拍。

And then these guys like came and they took a selfie.

我看到了。是的。我看到那张照片了。

I saw that. Yeah. I saw that photo. Yeah.

然后突然，你知道，就像公众人物常遇到的那样，事情开始失控。我觉得有很多人真的被 YC 拒绝了大概十几次之类的。

And then suddenly, you know, as it does happen to public figures, like things just start like getting out of hand. Like I think a lot of there's some people who literally got rejected from YC probably a dozen times or something.

然后我觉得当这种情况发生那么多次时，人们的大脑里有什么东西就崩坏了。所以不知怎么的，他们开始酝酿这样一个想法，就是……

And then I think something breaks in people's brains when that happens that many times. So somehow they started fermenting this like idea that like,

你知道，我在“培养”创始人。这完全是……

you know, I'm grooming founders. It's just like completely

在桑拿房里。

in the sauna.

是的。

Yeah.

所以，这就是为什么我说，桑拿房里没有黑子，也没有自拍。

So, that's why I'm just like, no haters in the sauna and no selfies.

是的。嗯，我觉得这说得通。

Yeah. Well, I think that makes sense.

我在那里放了个牌子，写着“禁止自拍”。现在，

I got a sign in there that has that says no selfies. Now,

真正的问题是，你有没有在桑拿房里谈成过交易？

the real question, have you ever have you ever done a deal in the sauna?

没有，绝对没有。

No, definitely not.

这就像……不，你知道，桑拿和冷水浴对我来说就是不谈工作。

This is like No, you know, the sauna and cold plunge to me is like no work talk.

是的，是的，是的。这是放松。

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This is decompress.

没错。这是我的……是的。这是我的放松区。所以

That's right. This is my Yeah. This is my chill zone. So

酷，酷。好了，我们去看看其他地方吧。

cool. Cool. All right, let's uh go check out the rest of the place.

我跟着你。

I'll follow you.

哦，请。好的。

Oh, please. Yeah.

那么，这个地方，你拿到的时候就是这样吗？所有东西都是。

So, this place, this was like this when you got it. Just everything.

是的，完全如此。我的意思是，这是前房主留下的。

Yeah, totally. I mean, this is from the prior owners.

乐高？

The Legos?

是的。

Yeah.

哇。

Wow.

我以为这是你的孩子什么的。你知道，你帮他们做的。

I figured this was like your kids or something. You know, you helping them make an

用乐高覆盖所有其他墙壁的艺术。

art to cover all the other walls with it, too.

用更多乐高？

With more Legos?

是的。我的意思是，它有一种完整的城市氛围。真的吗？

Yeah. I mean, it's got a whole city vibe. Really?

完全如此。

Totally.

这太疯狂了。我的意思是，我到底在看什么？

This is crazy. I mean, what what am I even looking at here?

是的，我觉得这确实是一座城市。你看，这里有点像单轨铁路。前房主真的非常喜欢艺术，我们很高兴他们留下了这个，而我的项目就是用乐高覆盖这个地方所有其他的墙壁。

Yeah, I think it's a city, honestly. Like, you can see this like a little monor rail and Yeah, the previous owners were really really into art and we're just glad that they left this behind and it's my project to cover the rest of all the walls in the place.

是的，你和你的孩子们。

Yeah, you and your kids.

正是如此。这

Exactly. This

会是一个有趣的家庭项目。

would be a fun family project.

是的。

Yep.

超级酷。好了，接下来是什么？进来吧。

Super cool. All right, what's next? Come on in.

哦，谢谢。

Oh, thanks.

哇。是的。所以，这里曾经是教堂的主圣殿，我们可以招待 50 人坐下来吃晚餐，你知道，就是来 Gary 家吃晚饭。我们在这里办过我的生日派对。是的，那很有趣。我们在这里请了一支不错的乐队。所以，

Whoa. Yeah. So, this used to be the main sanctuary of the church and uh we can host, you know, 50 people for a seated dinner, you know, just come over to Gary's house and have dinner and uh you know, we've had uh my birthday party here. Yeah, that was fun. We got we got a a nice band in here. So,

哇。你这里能容纳多少人？

Wow. How many people do you do you have in here?

我的意思是，大概 150 人很舒适。是的，

I mean, maybe like 150 comfortably. Yeah,

这太不可思议了。

that's unbelievable.

是的，我们招待过 Pat Gelsinger，来自英特尔，Peter Thiel 在这里讲过话。我的意思是，是的，我们还有 London Breed，你知道，我们下周会有 Scott Wiener 来。所以，我觉得这几乎就像一个沙龙空间。

Yeah, we've hosted um Pat Gellinger. uh from Intel, Peter Teal spoke here. I mean, yeah. I mean, we've had London Breed, you know, we're having uh Scott Weiner here next week. So, it's uh I mean, I think of it almost like as a salon space.

是的。

Yeah.

嗯，但这其实就是我的家。

Um but it's just one that is literally my house.

超级酷。这玻璃到底有多老了？

Super cool. How old is this glass even?

我觉得大概有 110 年了。

I think it's uh something like 110 years old.

所以，这就是这栋建筑的年龄。110 年。

So, that's so that's how old this building is. 110.

但这是新的。这大概有 10 年了。哦，哇。

But this is new. This is like maybe 10 years old. Oh, wow.

是的。那是……

Yeah. That's the uh

在你搬进来之前。

before you moved in.

是的。那是抗震加固。

Yep. That's the seismic retrofit.

哇。

Wow.

我听说过关于你的一件事，说到教堂，我了解到你是一个虔诚的宗教人士。这是真的吗？

One of uh the things I've heard about you speaking speaking of a church like I I I I understand you are a deeply religious person. Is that true?

嗯，我是改宗的基督徒。所以

Uh I mean I'm converted Christian. So

改宗的基督徒。

converted Christian.

是的，是的，是的。之前是无神论者。但是嗯

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. as an atheist. But um

意思是说，在你成长的家庭里，不仅没有宗教，而且宗教是不……

like meaning in your household growing up there was no not only was there no religion, it was like religion is not

嗯，我个人曾经是无神论者，然后我爸爸是佛教徒，我妈妈是基督徒。

uh I mean personally I was atheist and then my dad's Buddhist and my mom's Christian.

好的。

Okay.

但是嗯，我小时候真的很挣扎。我的意思是，我的童年相当艰难。所以，

But um I just really struggled as a kid. I mean, I had a pretty rough childhood. So,

好的。

okay.

嗯，我真的在挣扎于《奥德赛》这类问题。这种想法，比如一个全能的上帝，

Um, I just really kind of struggled with the Odyssey. This sort of idea like how does an omnipotent God

嗯，你知道，全知、全能、全善、全权，

uh who, you know, allseeing, all knowing, all good, all powerful,

如果我们生活在这个破碎的世界里，其中一件事肯定是错的。有一首鲁米的诗真的触动了我，它似乎解释了这一点。那是关于智者和蛇的故事。长话短说，就像

one of those things has to be wrong if uh we're living in this broken world. And uh there was a roomie poem that really spoke out to me that like sort of explained it. It was the story of the uh the wise man and uh the snake. And long story short, it's like

你知道，上帝放了一条蛇，你知道，他有点……我们必须与邪恶和生活的困难作斗争，

you know God puts a a snake, you know, he sort of we have to struggle with evil and like

你知道，他不能直接移除它，因为我们不会去做那些我们需要做的事情，以便作为人成长，或者

the difficulty of life and uh you know he can't just remove it because we wouldn't do the things we need to do to um sort of grow as people or

成为他可能希望我们成为的样子。所以，你知道，那对我来说是一个非常有力的时刻，在我二十多岁的时候，我有点开始信仰，克服了这种想法，

to become uh who he might want us to be. So, you know, that was like sort of this really powerful moment for me um in my, you know, actually mid20s that I sort of came to faith um sort of overcoming this idea that

实际上，是的，世界真的很糟糕，但是嗯，你知道，在这种情况下可以有上帝。

actually, yeah, the world's really screwed up, but um you know, there can be a God in in that case

然后这让你改信了基督教。

and that led you to convert to Christianity.

是的。

Yeah.

哇。这个过程对你来说是什么样的？我的意思是，你需要经历很多教育吗？或者一个人如何改信基督教？我从小是天主教徒，所以它就在那里，我想。但是

Wow. What was that process like for you? I mean, did you have to go through like a lot of education or how does how do you how does one convert to Christianity? I I grew up Catholic, so it was just like it was just there, I guess. But

是的，对于在二十多岁这样做的人来说，那到底是什么样的？

yeah, for somebody like doing it in their 20s. What is what does that even look like?

我想我只是开始去教堂，像串教堂一样，试图找到一个社区，看看什么真正能引起我的共鸣。

I guess I just started like church going church hopping like trying to find a community, try to see what really resonated for me.

这是家庭的事情，还是只是

Was this a family thing or or just

我二十多岁的时候，你知道，一个单身汉试图闯出自己的路。

me in my 20s, you know, uh single dude trying to like make my way.

哇。

Wow.

而且嗯，你知道，去不同种类的教堂有一些相当有趣的经历。我的意思是，我去过韩国教堂，他们让我做信仰治疗。我去过五旬节派教堂，我不得不说方言。嗯，是的，看到有多少不同种类的信仰真的很有趣。但是，你知道，现在我是 Acts 17 的董事会成员，这是一个非营利组织，把 Peter Thiel 和 Pat Gelsinger 请上了台。

And um you know, there are some pretty fun experiences going to different kinds of churches. I mean, I went to a Korean church and they made me do a faith healing. I went to a Pentecostal church and I had to uh speak in tongues. Um, yeah, it was like really interesting to see how many different types of faiths there are. But, you know, now I'm on the board of um Acts 17, which is uh sort of the nonprofit that brought Peter Teal and Pat Gellzinger onto the stage.

而且嗯，你知道，他们谈论他们的职业生涯，但他们也谈论上帝，谈论他们的信仰。

And uh you know, they talk about their careers and but they also talk about God and they talk about um their faith.

而且你知道，我们真正想给人们一个选择的机会，尤其是在这个现代时代，就是让他们去探索，对吧？不是说这绝对正确，或者这是你唯一能思考世界的方式，而是更像，嘿，你为什么不去教堂看看它是否与你产生共鸣呢。

And you know, one of the things that we really want to give people an option for, especially in this modern time, is the chance to be seeking, right? It's not saying this is definitely right or this is the only way that you could possibly think about the world, but more like, hey, why don't you just go to church and see if it resonates for you.

是的。你看，这很有趣。我的意思是，感觉有这么多——我不知道你是否想称之为复兴，或者也许人们只是更开放了，但确实看起来有很多人开始在科技社区更认真地对待宗教和信仰，我承认，对我来说，当我了解到这一点时，这似乎有些反直觉。我想我一直觉得科学和宗教就像两件非常不同的事情。帮我理解一下。比如，你为什么认为这在科技社区现在如此前沿？

Yeah. And see, it's interesting. I mean, it feels like there's so—I don't know if you want to call it a resurgence or maybe people are just being more open about it, but it does seem like there are a lot of people who are starting to take religion and faith more seriously in the tech community, which I admit, for me, when I learned that, it seemed somewhat counterintuitive. I think I always felt like science and religion were like two very different things. Help me make sense of that. Like, why do you think this is such—faith and religion is so at the forefront right now in the technology community?

而且我认为我们只是在寻找意义，对吧？然后我们正处于 AGI 的黎明。就像，我们不知道奇点是否会到来。也许会的。我认为有一种非常深层的存在主义焦虑，不仅在科技领域，而是广泛地。然后，是的，我认为这可能像——不是对每个人都适用，但我认为它会有所帮助。而且你知道，也许回归基督教或任何信仰。就像，我认为世界实际上迫切需要更多这样的东西。

And I think we're just looking for meaning, right? And then we're at the dawn of AGI. Like, we don't know if a singularity is coming. Maybe it is. I think that there's this very deep sort of existential angst, not just in tech but broadly. And then, yeah, I think that it might be like—it's not for everyone, but I think it will help. And you know, maybe a return to Christianity or any faith. Like, I think that the world actually desperately needs a lot more of that.

所以，嗯，我认为在湾区这也是不同的。我的意思是，有趣的事情。

So, um, I think it's a different thing in the Bay Area too. I mean, interesting thing.

我的意思是，它都是非宗派性的。就像——它是嗯，我猜是加州信仰。听起来它和美国其他地方甚至世界其他地方非常不同。

I mean, it's all non-denominational. It's just like—it's um, I guess California faith. Like, it sounds like it's very different than other parts of the country or even the world.

是的。抱歉。解释一下。再解释一下。

Yeah. Sorry. Explain that. Explain that more.

我的意思是，我的感觉是，你知道，有卫理公会派，有长老会派。就像，这些是非常古老的传统，非常具体。

I mean, my sense is there's you know, there's Methodists, there's Presbyterian. Like, these are like very old traditions that are very specific.

是的。

Yeah.

然后，你知道，如果你去旧金山或洛杉矶任何地方的教堂，或者你知道，甚至纽约市，比如你去一个救赎主教堂，它不像你知道的，浸信会式的内疚或地狱之火和硫磺，对吧？它是嗯，我的意思是，它非常以耶稣为中心。所以我认为这很有趣。在某种程度上这是一种文化体验。科学与基督教——它们并不是那么正交。嗯，我们让 NIH 的负责人来 ACT 17 演讲，他谈到了信仰实际上如何与他的生活以及他如何思考他的工作真正融合。

And then, you know, if you go to a church in San Francisco or anywhere in LA, or you know, even New York City, like you go to a Redeemer, and it's not like you know, steeped in Baptist guilt or hellfire and brimstone, right? It's um, I mean, it's very Jesus-focused. So I think it's just interesting. It's like a cultural experience in some way. Science versus Christianity—it's not really like that orthogonal. Um, we had the head of the NIH come and speak at the, you know, ACT 17, and he talked about how faith actually, you know, really integrated with his life and how he thought about his work.

所以我实际上通过敬拜音乐来接触信仰。所以而不是——你知道，我花了很多时间试图从纯粹理智的角度接触信仰，我认为我的一些朋友确实能够做到这一点，但没有什么比去一场非常好的敬拜，唱歌，并让圣灵进入你更棒的了。我的意思是，这只是一个有趣的事情，我希望人们至少持开放态度。对。而且，你知道，这是作为一个从小无神论者说的。就像，我记得在历史和英语课上，会有世界宗教单元，我是那种人——那个班上的基督徒会说，你会下地狱。我当时想，哦，是的，那对他们来说不是很欢迎或包容。就像，我认为耶稣不会那样说。

And so I actually approached faith through worship music. So rather than—you know, I spent a lot of time trying to approach faith from purely intellectual, and I think some friends of mine are actually able to do that, but there's nothing like going to a really good worship and singing and just allowing the Holy Spirit to enter you. I mean, it's just an interesting thing that I want people to be at least open to. Right. And, you know, this is speaking as an atheist growing up. Like, I remember being in history and English class and there'd be like a world religion unit, and I was the guy who—the Christians in that class would say like, you're going to hell. And I was like, oh yeah, that's not very welcoming or inclusive of them. Like, I don't think Jesus would say that.

所以你的家人去吗？这是现在全家人的事情吗？

So does your family go? Is this now like a whole family thing?

哦，是的，我们一直去旧金山的 Epic 教堂，而且你知道，是的。

Oh yeah, we've been going to Epic Church in San Francisco, and you know, yeah.

你的孩子们去，而且——

Your kids go and—

是的，他们喜欢主日学。而且是的，我的意思是，我认为确实有真正的复兴。你知道，Epic 教堂在过去，你知道，我想是一年里，去那个教堂的人数增加了一倍多。

Yeah, they love Sunday school. And yeah, I mean, I think there's a real resurgence. You know, Epic Church more than doubled the number of people who go to that church in the last, you know, I think year.

哇。

Wow.

所以有事情在发生。

So there's something happening.

绝对有事情在发生。你知道，显然全球圣经销量飙升。

There's totally something happening. You know, Bible sales are through the roof apparently, globally.

而且你关于 AGI 的观点很好。就像，我确实想知道其中有多少是由对 AI 的兴趣驱动的，人们有点像，这一切意味着什么？就像，什么——你知道，这一切通向哪里？也许那就是人们想找到答案的地方。

And you make a good point about AGI. Like, I do wonder how much of it is driven by the interest in AI and people sort of like, what's it all mean? Like, what's—you know, where does this all lead? And maybe that's where people want to find an answer.

是的。我的意思是，嗯，其他的人之一——实际上这个非营利组织的创始人——实际上是 Michelle Stevens。所以她是，你知道，Trey Stevens 的妻子。

Yeah. I mean, um, one of the other people who—actually the founder of this nonprofit—is actually Michelle Stevens. So she's, you know, Trey Stevens's wife.

好的。

Okay.

而且 Trey，你知道，著名地创立了 Anduril。我的意思是，我最喜欢的——他有一篇关于好使命的精彩文章和演讲。你知道，你可以做很多事情，但是嘿，也许我们应该真正做一些将我们与同胞联系起来的事情，真正解决实际问题。就像，你知道，我们不必帮助人们点击广告。就像，世界上有比那更大的问题。

And Trey, you know, famously started Anduril. I mean, my favorite—he has this amazing essay and talk about good quests. You know, you can work on a lot of stuff, but hey, maybe we should actually work on things that link us to our fellow man, that actually solve real problems. Like, you know, we don't have to help people click on ads. Like, there are bigger problems in the world than that.

说到敬拜音乐，我相信你接下来要带我去你最喜欢的卡拉 OK 酒吧，The Lion's Den。所以，我们过去吧。

Speaking of worship music, I believe you are next going to show me your favorite karaoke bar, The Lion's Den. So, let's head over.

是的，我们去唐人街。

Yeah, let's go to Chinatown.

太棒了。谢谢你带我参观这个地方。

Awesome. Thanks for giving me a tour of the place.

是的，谢谢你来。

Yeah, thanks for coming.

呃，我没坐过那么多 Waymo，因为我不住在这里。

Uh, I haven't taken that many Waymos 'cause I don't live here.

是的，完全同意。

Yeah, totally.

不过我听说它们要来纽约了。

I heard they're coming to New York, though.

哦，那太令人兴奋了。

Oh, that's exciting.

现在开始乘车了。所以，我们走吧。你知道，今天是有点情绪化的日子，因为我正在消化——我们现在拒绝了 99.3% 申请 YC 的人。

High started the ride right now. So, here we go. You know, today's kind of an emotional day because I'm sort of absorbing—we reject 99.3% of people who apply to YC right now.

今天是拒绝信发出的日子。哦，天哪。

Today's the day that the rejections go out. Oh my gosh.

今天刚发出去。

It just went out today.

所以互联网正在消化它。所以，你知道，我认为很多人——我感觉在新闻圈有很多仇恨，但我也想说，伙计们，进入 YC 的第一步是被 YC 拒绝。

And so the internet is processing it. So I, you know, I think a lot of people—I'm feeling like in the news sphere a lot of hate, but I'm also like, guys, the first step to getting into YC is getting rejected from YC.

大多数——许多被录取的申请者是否之前被拒绝过？

Do most—do many applicants that get accepted have they previously been rejected?

我的意思是，我认为上一批被录取的人平均申请次数——他们可能至少申请了两次。

I mean, I think the average number of times people who got in this last batch—they applied maybe at least twice.

哇。

Wow.

这是平均水平。

That's the average.

是的。

Yeah.

哦，那太迷人了。

Oh, that's fascinating.

在进入 YC 之前被 YC 拒绝是非常非常正常的。在那一批中，被 YC 拒绝多次的人比第一次就进入的人多。

It's very, very normal to get rejected from YC before getting into YC. There are more people who got rejected multiple times from YC in the batch than people who got in the first time.

我不知道。那太迷人了。所以当你说，你知道，互联网上有仇恨在酝酿，就像你知道，我们之前谈过作为公众人物。在像今天这样的日子里，你和 YC 的各种集团合伙人是否会被推文、愤怒的推文、愤怒的电子邮件轰炸？

I had no idea. That's fascinating. And so when you said like, you know, there's hate brewing on the internet, like you know, we talked about being a public figure earlier. On a day like today, do you and the various group partners at YC just get bombarded with tweets, angry tweets, angry emails?

是的。

Yeah.

这会存档用于未来的申请吗？

Does that get filed for future applications?

我觉得这在某种程度上是一种韧性测试。

I mean, I think it's a resiliency test at some level.

哦，是的，这很有意思。

Oh yeah, that's interesting.

因为你看，我们不是千里眼。而且，如果 99.3% 的人都被拒绝了，你几乎没法太生气。这概率太低了。

Because it's like, look, we're not clairvoyant. And also, just because if 99.3% of people are getting rejected, it's almost like you can't get that mad. It's just so unlikely.

作为创始人，你在旅程的每一步都会以无数种方式被拒绝。所以现在就开始习惯吧，因为你必须克服无数的拒绝和障碍。你会被拒绝。比如人们不想为你工作，投资者不想投资。

And you're going to be rejected in countless ways as a founder at every turn of the journey. So get used to it now, because you're going to have to overcome so many nos and so many hurdles. You're gonna get rejected. Like people don't want to work for you. Investors are not going to want to invest.

这种情况有多频繁？

And how often is this?

用户一开始不会采用你的产品。

Users are not going to adopt your product at first.

是的。

Yeah.

评论者讨厌它。

Reviewers hate it.

Hacker News 的评论者讨厌它。

Hacker News commenters hate it.

每个人都会讨厌你。

Everyone's going to hate you.

然后呢？

And then?

我的意思是，在 YC 看到这种情况真的很有趣，因为有些人一生中从未失败过，然后他们被用户打脸，被投资者打脸，这确实是个问题。比如，这一批我内部开玩笑说，当你们进入 YC 时，也许我应该让人们做 60 秒的引体向上悬垂，就像单杠那样。

I mean, it's actually fascinating to see that play out at YC, because some people have never failed in their entire lives, and then they get punched in the face with users. They get punched in the face with investors, and it's a problem. Like, I was just joking internally this batch. I was thinking, when you get into YC, maybe I should make people do a 60-second hang from a bar, like a fixed bar.

你做过这个吗？没有。

You ever do this? No.

这是我高中越野跑时的一个项目。在单杠上做这个真的很难。

This is a thing when I ran cross country in high school. It's really hard to do from a bar.

是的。

Yeah.

我们要在单杠上悬垂。但是，你知道，这是能否克服困难的一个真正考验。如果你能坚持一分钟，那很好。你可能足够坚韧，能承受一些命运的打击。

We're going to hang on a bar. But, you know, one of the true tests of can you overcome? And if you could do it for a minute, great. You're probably resilient enough to take a few slings and arrows of outrageous fortune.

如果你连这个都做不到，也许我们会强迫你观看这个关于心理韧性的研讨会。

And if you can't even do that, maybe we will force you to watch this seminar about mental toughness.

我的意思是，创业真的几乎是最好的耐力锻炼或考验。就像每个角落你都被打脸，你能承受多少？最终，希望你能突破，雪球开始滚下山坡。这是一段相当痛苦的经历。我知道你经历过，我也经历过。大多数时候这都不是一种感觉良好的体验，至少直到它开始奏效。

I mean, building a startup really is almost no better exercise or test of endurance than building a startup. It's just like every corner you're getting punched in the face, and it's like how much can you take? And eventually, hopefully you break through, and the snowball starts to roll down the hill. It's a pretty painful experience. I know you've gone through it, I've gone through it. It's not a feel-good experience most of the time, or at least until it starts working.

现在，我们稍微聊过一些我们一起出去玩的时候，或者我在 YC 和你做的播客。作为 CEO 在 YC 对你来说有多棒。我一直想知道你从 Initialized 过来的过渡是怎样的，我相信你是和 Alexis 一起创立的，对吧？

Now, we've talked a little bit about times we've hung out or the podcast I did with you at YC. Just kind of how awesome it's been for you to be at YC as the CEO. I've always wondered what the transition for you was like coming from Initialized, which I believe you founded with Alexis, right?

实际上还有 Harj。所以，我和 Harj 合作，他是联合创始人之一，他当年在 YC 雇了我。

And Harj actually. So, I'm working with Harj, who is one of the co-founders, and he hired me at YC back in the day.

好的。所以我觉得 YC 是一棵繁荣之树，然后在 Sam 的领导下，我离开并进入了繁荣之树的一个分支。

Okay. So I feel like YC is this tree of prosperity, and then for a time under Sam, I went off and went into one of the branches of the tree of prosperity.

这就是 Initialized 的样子。我们所有的成功，你知道，Rippling、Flock Safety，真的，我把我们所有的成功都归功于成为那个生态系统的一部分。

That's what Initialized was. All of our wins, you know, Rippling, Flock Safety, really, I credit being a part of that ecosystem for all of our success.

抱歉，只是为了确保我理解这一点。所以，你在 YC 是因为你像是 YC 的驻场设计师，对吧？你当时在 YC 做设计工作。

Sorry, just to make sure I understand this. So, you were at YC because you were like a designer in residence at YC, right? You did design stuff at YC back then.

是的。然后我做了太多的办公时间，以至于不让我成为合伙人可能太尴尬了。

Yeah. And then I just did so many office hours that it was probably too awkward to not make me a partner.

所以，他们让你成为合伙人，但然后你说你离开并创办了 Initialized，因为你属于生态系统的一部分，你看到了很多交易流，并投资了很多 YC 公司。

So, they made you a partner, but then you're saying you went off and you started Initialized, and because you were part of the ecosystem, you just saw so much of the deal flow and funded so many YC companies.

是的。我们所有的成功，大约 90% 的成功，都来自 YC。

Yeah. And all of our wins, like 90% of our wins, were YC.

我不知道这一点。

I didn't know that.

但是，是的，我的意思是，这就是我对担任 YC 总裁的感受。我是树的一部分，我是生态系统中的一员，这个生态系统对我来说非常棒。我在早期投资了多个十角兽，仅仅因为我在那里，我能遇到这些人。这就是 YC 对我的意义。

But yeah, I mean, that's how I feel about being president of YC. I was a part of the tree, I was someone in the ecosystem, and the ecosystem was incredible for me. I funded multiple decacorns at the early stage just because I was there and I could meet these people. That's what YC represents to me.

你知道，这是 7% 录取率的结果，这些人是最优秀的人。我们不可能每次都做对。让我生气的是，当我们犯错时，人们会非常生气，就像‘哦，是的，是的，抱歉。’

You know, it's the outcome of a 7% acceptance rate, and these are the best of the best people. We're not going to get it right every single time. The thing that gets me is people get so mad when we make a mistake, and it's like, 'Oh yeah, yeah, sorry.'

你拒绝了一些最终变得很棒的东西？

You reject something that ends up being great?

两种情况都有，对吧？当我们让一个结果不太好的人进来时，他们更生气。然后他们会说，‘但我被拒绝了，我比这些人好多了。’然后就像，‘哦，是的，是的，是的。事实证明我们是人类。’

Both ways, right? They get more mad when we let in someone who turns out to be not quite as good. And then they're like, 'But I got rejected and I'm way better than these people.' And it's like, 'Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It turns out we're human beings.'

但这肯定很难指出来，对吧？我的意思是，因为不是所有 YC 公司都能成功，对吧？我不知道。我得想象很多公司没有成功。

But that must be hard to point out, right? I mean, because not all YC companies make it, right? I don't know. I have to imagine a lot of them don't.

是的，没错。我的意思是，独角兽率只有 6% 到 12%。

Yeah, that's right. I mean, the unicorn rate is only 6 to 12%.

当然，只有。

Only, of course.

但这也很小。

But it's also tiny.

是的。不，这很小。我觉得这很小，这很合理。

Yeah. No, it's tiny. I think it's tiny, which makes sense.

那么显然你在 Initialized 之后回到了 YC。离开你的宝贝 Initialized 是什么感觉？

So then obviously you went back to YC after Initialized. Like, what was that like leaving your baby, Initialized?

哦，太难了。

Oh, it was so hard.

是的。

Yeah.

但你是怎么做到的？

But how did you do that?

很大程度上，你知道，它运行得很好，我把一部分交给了我的合伙人。所以 Brett Gibson 现在在管理它。

A lot of it is like, you know, it's working great, and some of it I gave to my partner. So Brett Gibson runs it now.

好的。

Okay.

他在那边做得非常出色。

And he's just knocking it out of the park over there.

然后，基本上能够从分支回到根部，成为树的中心园丁。我的意思是，这是一份梦想的工作。

And then, basically being able to go from the branch back into the root and be like the central gardener of the tree. I mean, it's a dream job.

所以这就是你做的原因，因为这是一份梦想的工作？就像，‘哦，我可以成为 YC 的总裁。’

So it was that why you did it, because it was a dream job? It was like, 'Oh, I can be president of YC.'

是的。我的意思是，Paul 和 Jessica 找到我，说：‘Garry，我们需要你回来。’然后我想，你知道，说实话，这很难。我不得不向我组建的团队告别，但我也为他们成功做好了准备。他们能够继续投资并做得非常出色。所以，Initialized 一如既往地强大。然后我可以回到树那里，确保我实际上能从分支之外更多地支持他们。

Yeah. I mean, Paul and Jessica tracked me down and said, 'Garry, we need you back.' And I'm like, you know, honestly, it was very hard. I had to say goodbye to the team that I brought together, but I also set them up for success. They were able to continue to invest and do an incredible job. And so, Initialized is as strong as ever. And then I can go back to the tree and make sure that I can actually support them even more from outside the branch.

感觉 YC 发生了很多变化，你跟我聊过一些这方面的事情。我想在你加入的时候，YC 有一个增长基金。我记得你称之为持续基金之类的。

It feels like there's been a lot of changes to YC, and you've talked to me about this stuff a little bit. I think around the time when you joined, YC had a growth fund. I think you called it like continuity fund or something.

我的理解是现在这已经没了。

That's my understanding is that's gone now.

是的。我们不再和你们竞争了。所以，我们想成为你们最好的伙伴，我们只请求你们让我们继续为这些公司提供资金。所以，我们希望你们领投，我们只想按比例跟投。

Yeah. We're out of competing with you guys. So, we want to be your best buddies and all we ask is please let us keep funding the companies as they go. So, you know, we want you to lead and we just want to take our pro rata.

是的。但策略是什么？我很感激你很大方。但策略是什么？比如为什么行不通？

Yeah. But what's the strategy? I appreciate that you're very generous. But what was the strategy? Like why wasn't it working?

我的意思是，事实证明，如果你拥有所有这些公司 7% 到 9% 的股份，只要按比例跟投，你就不会错过十角兽。你知道幂律法则怎么运作的。6% 到 12% 的公司最终会价值十亿美元或更多。而且实际上，那甚至不是回报的大头。回报的大头，比如，我们认为 YC 真正好的回报是 8 倍。而其中大部分实际上不在独角兽里，而是在十角兽里，比如 Stripe、DoorDash、Coinbase、Airbnb，对吧？所以如果你的大部分回报来自那里，那么你是否按比例跟投并继续持有公司股份，还是让自己被稀释，这就是二元的选择。

I mean, it turns out that if you own like 7 to 9% of all of these companies, just taking the pro rata means you never miss the decacorns. And you know how the power law works. Like 6 to 12% of the companies will end up being worth a billion dollars or more. And then actually, that's not even the bulk of the return. The bulk of, like, you know, we think that a really good return for YC would be 8x. And the bulk of that is actually not even in the unicorns, it's actually in the decacorns and the Stripe, the DoorDash, the Coinbase, the Airbnb, right? And so if most of your return is that, then it's binary whether you are in the pro rata and continuing to own pieces of the company, or do you let yourself get diluted down.

所以，你知道，YC famously 投资了大约 1.2 万到 1.5 万美元，拥有 Airbnb 7% 的股份，但在 IPO 时回报了 20 亿美元。

So, you know, YC famously invested like 12 to 15,000 to own 7% of Airbnb, but at IPO it returned $2 billion.

哇。

Wow.

但如果按比例跟投，那就是 70 亿。

But if it took pro rata, it'd be 7 billion.

而且你可能只需要再投资几亿美元就能做到。

And you'd only have to probably invest like another couple hundred million for that.

不，我的意思是结构上没办法做到。但现在我们……

No, I mean structurally there was no way to do it. But now we...

因为连续性基金，因为分配了更多资金到那上面还是什么？

Because of the continuity fund, because there was more allocated to that or something?

他们只是没有筹集到资金。

They just didn't hadn't raised the money.

没有筹集到资金。是的。

Hadn't raised the money. Yeah.

哇。所以，那么想法是……我想我刚才听到你说的是，事实证明 YC 的核心业务就是太好了，所以为什么要分心呢？在结构上、经济上、团队上，为什么要从那个焦点上分心？就像把 100% 的精力放在一个团队上。就像我有 15 位平等的普通合伙人，而且……你知道，人们把 Benchmark 称为平等合伙制。我认为 YC 应该……你知道，人们应该把 YC 看作所有风险投资中定义性的平等合伙制，对吧？

Wow. So okay, so then is the idea... I think what I just heard you say then is turns out the core YC business is just so good, so why focus... why have any distraction from that focus structurally, economically, team-wise? Like just put 100% of the energy and have one team doing it. It's like I have 15 equal general partners and it's... you know, people talk about Benchmark as an equal partnership. I think YC should be... you know, people should think about YC as the defining equal partnership in all of venture, right?

哇。它本身就是一门好生意。为什么要分散注意力？

Wow. It's just such a good business on its own. Why defocus the business?

我的意思是，这可能节省了很多运营。一个团队只专注于……一种关系，你知道，有一个合伙人，那个合伙人……

And I mean, it probably saves a lot of operations. One team that just focuses on... and one relationship, you know, there's one partner, that partner...

哦，对。因为那是一个完全不同的基金。你有不同的合伙人。

Oh, right. Because it was a completely different fund. You had different partners.

是的。为什么要有一个不同的团队？为什么要为团队设立不同的……？

Yeah. Why have a different team? Why have a different... for the teams?

是的。

Yeah.

所以，基本上现在经历 YC 的过程非常简单。比如你和合伙人面试，如果合伙人喜欢你，他们就是你在公司生命周期内的联系人。而且，你知道吗，YC 实际上拥有很多这些公司的股份，对吧？比如我们拥有……你知道，你给我们 7% 的所有权。比如，帮助我们。我的意思是，我们上周刚毕业了 160 家公司，我告诉每一家，听着，我们实际上是你们公司的主要投资者。

So, and then basically now like the experience of going through YC is very straightforward. Like you interview with the partner, if the partner likes you, they're your person for the life of the company. And like, you know what, YC actually owns a lot of these companies, right? Like we own... you know, you giving us 7% ownership. Like, help us. I mean, we just graduated 160 companies last week, and I told every single one of them, listen guys, we're actually big major investors in your company.

是的。所以让我们赢得这份信任。

Yeah. So make us earn it.

是的。比如回来。和我们一起办公时间。我们在公司的生命周期内都在这里帮助你。就像 YC 不会……在 YC 结束时唯一结束的是我们没有定期安排的事情。就像随时来找我们聊天。就像真的，这是我的手机号码。

Yeah. Like come back. Do office hours with us. We're here to help you for the life of the company. Like YC doesn't... The only thing that ends at the end of YC is we don't have regularly scheduled things. Like just come talk to us anytime. Like literally, here's my cell phone number.

这对我来说已经变得非常清楚了。我的意思是，你和我，加上其他一些组合伙人，我们实际上会讨论早期批次的公司。我实际上不知道这一点，直到你们开始和我讨论。

That's become very clear to me. I mean, you and I and plus some of the other group partners, we actually talk about companies that are in older batches. And I didn't actually know that until you guys started talking to me about it.

在结构上，如果我们没有那种实际的连续性，那么我们就无法做到这一点。我们会说，“哦，是的，我几年前见过那些人，就这样。”

Structurally, if we didn't have that sort of actual continuity, then we wouldn't be able to do that. We'd be like, "Oh yeah, I met those guys a couple years ago and that's it."

他们现在是后期基金的一部分了。是的，这非常有趣。批次变得大多了，对吧？

They're part of the later stage fund now. Yeah, that's super interesting. The batches have gotten a lot bigger, right?

是的。我的意思是，这主要是因为我们录取率曾经大约是 2.5%。然后在过去 20 年里，它从那个数字下降到了大约 7%。所以，你知道，我认为总的来说，人们总是担心的第一件事是，“哦，糟糕，有这么多公司。”但我认为这已经成为一个真正的优势。我认为成果的规模大了 10 倍。比如，我记得第一次筹集 Initialized Fund One 时，心想，“天哪，我们能想象的最大退出就是 Dropbox 在……”我认为当时在 2011 年它价值 40 亿美元。我当时想，“不，不，不，500 亿在桌上。1000 亿在桌上。”比如，你知道，我的意思是，如果有什么的话，我希望 YC 能帮助创造所有下一代的埃隆·马斯克。如果那发生了，那么我们谈论的就是 1.5 万亿美元。太好了。

Yeah. I mean, that's mainly a function of, like, our acceptance rate used to be like two and a half percent. And then it was like over the last 20 years it went from that down to like 7%. So, you know, I think net net, the number one thing that people are always worried about is like, "Oh shoot, there's so many companies." But I think that this has become a real bit. I think the size of the outcomes is 10x bigger. Like, I remember first raising Initialized Fund One and thinking, "Man, the biggest exit we could possibly imagine is like Dropbox at..." I think it was worth $4 billion at the time in 2011. And I was like, "No, no, no, like 50 billion is on the table. 100 billion is on the table." Like, you know, I mean, if anything, I would love for YC to help create all the next generations of Elon Musks. And if that happens, then we're talking $1.5 trillion. Great.

就像那是世界所需要的。比如，回到技术，那是我们如何将技术均匀地分配给所有应该拥有它的人。

Like that's what the world needs. Like, going back to technology, that's how we evenly distribute technology to all the people who should have it.

那么，想法是你们实际上会把批次扩大到运营上尽可能大的规模吗？

So is the idea then like you actually would scale the batches to be as big as operationally possible?

但我需要你赚钱，我需要更多麦克风。我需要更多人。

But I need you to be making money and I need like I need more mics. I need more people.

因为你需要他们在毕业时获得资金。

Because you need them to get funded when they graduate.

嗯，我希望你做得好，我希望风险投资中的每个人都做得好，因为那是我们一起崛起的方式，对吧？然后那就是创始人获胜的方式，对吧？就像这不必是对抗性的，只能有一个。这是人类历史上最富足、最成长心态的生意。

Well, I want you to do well and I want everyone in venture to do well because that's how we all rise together, right? And then that's how founders win, right? Like it doesn't have to be this adversarial, there can only be one. This is the most abundance growth mindset business that has ever existed in humanity.

你觉得为什么有这么多……嗯，你提到了录取率，但批次中有这么多公司。你认为 AI 和这有很大关系吗？

And do you feel like a big part of why there are so many... Well, you mentioned the acceptance rate, but so many more companies in the batch. Do you think AI has a lot to do with that?

哦，绝对。

Oh, absolutely.

因为创业和构建变得容易多了。

Because it's getting so much easier to start and to build.

真正有趣的是，我不清楚资本是否还会是一个预算。所以，我的意思是，那实际上可能是一件非常好的事情。你知道，有洞察力、品味、帮助的能力，比如能力去……我的意思是，做你现在正在做的事情。比如，你知道，我喜欢你是一个消费者创始人，因为转过身来把这一点应用到投资中是你能做的最聪明的事情，对吧？

The really interesting thing is like it's not clear to me capital is going to be a budget anymore. So, I mean, and that might actually be a really good thing. You know, there's like discernment, taste, ability to help, like ability to... I mean, do what you're doing right now. Like, you know, I love that you're a consumer founder because turning around and applying that to investing is like the most intelligent thing you can do, right?

同意。多说一点。

Same. Say more.

我的意思是，这是，你知道，你在建立你的受众。

I mean, this is, you know, you're building your audience.

啊，好的。我明白你的意思了。

Ah, okay. I see what you're saying.

这太棒了。我的意思是，这就是为什么……

This is awesome. I mean, this is why...

这是一种消费者体验，你说的。是的。

This is a consumer experience, what you're saying. Yeah.

没错。我觉得那是停车位。哦，不是。它正好……就是停车位。我觉得是侧方停车。找个地方靠边停。

Exactly. I think it's parking. Oh, nope. And it just... it is parking. I think it's parallel parking. Finding a spot to pull over.

好了，我们到唐人街了。

All right, here we are at Chinatown.

我想看看这个地方。所以，这就是你的地盘。

I want to see this. So, this is like your spot.

是的。

Yep.

狮子窝。

The lion's den.

这里……我是说，它是个不起眼的小地方，但是，你知道，这是最好的卡拉 OK 店。

This is... I mean, it's a little hole in the wall, but um, you know, it's the best karaoke joint.

你知道这点是因为你光顾过所有卡拉 OK 店。你就像个卡拉 OK 鉴赏家。

And you know that because you've frequented all the karaoke places. You're like a karaoke connoisseur.

我通常在家里的教堂做卡拉 OK。所以，是的，我们在那里布置。

I usually do karaoke at home at the church. So, yeah, we set up there.

卡拉 OK。我们要去哪儿？哦，到了。

Karaoke. Where are we going? Oh, there it is.

好的。嗯，你的歌是什么？你的卡拉 OK 主打歌是什么？

Okay. Um, what's your song? What's your karaoke song?

哦，天哪。因为我……因为我嗨了。

Oh, man. Cuz I... Cuz I got high.

那是什么？那家伙叫什么名字？Afro。

What's that? What was that guy's name? Afro.

天哪。是的，那首不错。

Man. Yeah, that's a good one.

这是另一个人们不会懂的梗。

That's another reference people will not get.

是的。我是说，你知道，44 岁了，就是这样，你知道。

Yeah. I mean, you know, being 44, that's just how it works, you know.

是的，当然。你变老了，然后创始人，呃，你知道，他们很年轻，他们不看那些伴随我们长大的电影。所以……

Yes, of course. You just get older and then the founders, uh, you know, they're young and they don't watch the same movies that like brought us up. So...

他们不……我以为你要说 Tupac 联系了他。

They don't... I thought you were going to say Tupac hit him up.

没错。

That's right.

因为这不是那个臭名昭著的 Tupac 事件的现场吗？

Cuz isn't this the scene of the infamous Tupac?

很高兴见到你，Stephen。

Great to see you, Stephen.

我们……我刚才和 Forest 一起跟你说话。

We were... I was just talking to you with Forest.

哦，天哪。

Oh my god.

太冷了。

So cold.

哦，是的。谢谢你为我们开门营业。

Oh yeah. Thanks for opening up the bar for us.

哦，是的。

Oh yeah.

谢谢你，我的哥们 Mike。

Thank you, my buddy Mike.

你们要过来吗？

Are you guys coming?

谢谢你做这些。我们马上过来。我们只是快速拍一下。

Thanks for doing this. We're coming right now. We're just filming really real quick.

你们做播客吗？

You guys podcast?

是的，我们只是为你拍一下。

Yeah, we're just filming like for you.

介意吗？

Mind?

不介意。

No.

好的，我们开始吧。

All right, let's do it.

我以为你们现在会在 VIP 区。他们只是想拍个片子。

I thought you guys were going to be in VIP now. They just want to take up a film.

哦，是的。我们只是想喝一杯。是的，我们只是来……

Oh, yeah. We just want to drink. Yeah, we're just here to...

哦，Nigel。

Oh, the Nigel.

谢谢你为我们开门。

Thanks for opening up for us.

是的。

Yeah.

哦，Nigel。

Oh, the Nigel.

所以，这就是著名的狮子窝。

So, this is the famed lion's den.

臭名昭著的。

The infamous.

我听说过很多关于这个地方的事。Gary 一直在跟我讲。

I've heard a lot about this place. Gary's been telling me about it.

嗯，我们为唐人街建了这个。

Well, we built this for Chinatown.

真的吗？

Really?

是的。

Yes.

好的。

Okay.

这是呃，有点呃，你知道，为社区而建。这一直是呃，呃，一个呃，为了吸引更多人来到唐人街的东西，而不是买痒痒挠和散步。

This is uh, kind of uh, you know, built for the community. This has been uh, uh, something that uh, to bring more people to Chinatown uh, instead of buying back scratchers and walks.

是的。

Yeah.

现在我们可以……他们可以喝鸡尾酒，呃，你知道，随便什么。

Now we can... they can have cocktails and uh, you know, whatever.

嗯，我很期待来一杯。我们现在点东西是不是太早了，还是……

Well, I'm excited to have one. Are we too early to order something or...

哦，我们可以点。我有一些……我有一些人脉。我们有……好的。不，我们点吧。

Oh, we can do it. I have some... I have some connections. We have... Okay. No, we'll take it.

怎么了？

What's up?

内格罗尼。

Negronis.

是的，内格罗尼听起来不错。

Yeah, Negroni sounds great.

我的常规选择。嗯，为狮子们干杯，老爸。干杯。谢谢招待我们。谢谢款待我们。

My usual. Well, cheers to the Lions, Dad. Cheers. Thanks for having us. Thanks for hosting us.

干杯。谢谢款待我们。

Cheers. Thanks for hosting us.

没问题。

No problem.

哇。所以，是的，这就是你一直跟我说的那个地方。这就是……说到 Tupac。

Wow. So, yeah, this is the place you've been telling me about. This is... Speaking of Tupac.

是的。

Yeah.

这就是那一切发生的地方，对吧？给我们讲讲……这是另一个……这就像 Sonaggate。这是另一个 Gary 的争议。

This is where that all happened, right? Give us... This is another one of... This is like Sonaggate. This is another Gary controversy.

我正试图放下，你知道，这是……我正试图放下这些事，你知道。呃，但你知道故事是这样的，我和我大孩子的一群爸爸们，你知道，我们当时都在四年级，四年级的时候。我们会来享受一个美好的爸爸之夜，在楼下做卡拉 OK。

I'm trying to get over, you know, it's... I'm trying to get over this stuff, you know. Uh, but you know the story is me and a bunch of dads from my oldest, you know, we were all in fourth grade, fourth grade at the time. We'd like come and have a nice dad's night out and downstairs we're doing karaoke.

对你们来说，那是一个普通的夜晚吗？

Is that a normal night for you guys?

哦，我喜欢卡拉 OK，是的，我是说我们有一个……我们叫它案例爸爸饮酒俱乐部。所以我们……

Oh, I love karaoke and yeah, I mean we have a... we call it the case dad's drinking club. So we...

好的。

Okay.

我们呃，喜欢……它实际上是一个餐饮俱乐部，但我们喝一点酒。好的。所以……

We uh, like to... it's actually a dining club, but we do a little drinking. Okay. So...

但你知道，我们出来了，我们唱了一些卡拉 OK。我，你知道，碰巧刚唱了 Tupac 的《Hit 'Em Up》。而且，呃，你知道……

But you know, we came out, we had some karaoke. I, you know, happened to have just done Hit 'Em Up by Tupac. And, uh, you know...

这是一首经典。

It's a classic.

我想，这是我们这一代的经典。但人们并没有真正理解这个玩笑。你知道，我当时对政治非常激动，我，你知道，说了一些话。我有点把那句歌词变成了它本不该是的样子。我，你知道，早上醒来，我道歉了，然后意识到，你知道吗，那不是我。就像我，你知道，不需要那样的话传出去。人们没理解这个玩笑。你知道，我有点理解。而且你知道，尤其是现在世界上有那么多政治暴力，那真的不是我的风格。

It's a classic for our generation, I guess. And people didn't really get the joke. You know, I was really fired up about politics and I, you know, said some things. I sort of made that lyric something that it shouldn't be. And I, you know, I woke up in the morning, I apologized and realized, you know what, like that's just not me. Like I, you know, don't need that out there. People didn't get the joke. And you know, I kind of get it. And you know, especially now with like so much political violence in the world, like it's just not the vibe that is me.

但是嗯，我不知道。这就是事情发生的地方。你知道，从卡拉 OK 开始，然后我所知道的就是我喝了几杯后把 Twitter 从手机上删掉，尤其是在狮子窝的时候。

But um, I don't know. This is where it happened. You know, starts with karaoke and then all I know is I delete Twitter off my phone uh, after I have a couple drinks, especially when I'm at the Lion's Den.

这就像你现在的情绪状态，你知道吗？是的。这是一个条件语句，它只是，你知道，让我远离麻烦。

This is like your mood now, you know? Yeah. It's an if statement and it just, you know, keeps me out of trouble.

你应该用一下像呃 Opal 这样的应用。你见过 Opal 吗？它是一个可以锁定某些应用的应用程序……

You should get like uh Opal. Have you seen Opal? It's this app that you know locks certain certain apps...

而且你可以让它变得极其困难……我想……

And you can make it like extremely difficult to... I think...

我觉得唯一的办法就是要么卸载应用，要么关机或重启手机之类的。所以……

I think the only way to do it is like to either uninstall the app or shut down or restart your phone or something. So...

是的，现实是未来手机实际上会为我们做这件事。它会了解我们，你知道，我们的手机……

Yeah, the reality is like in the future the phone like actually will just do this for us. It'll know us, you know, our phone...

停下，不要打开 Twitter。

Stop, do not open Twitter.

是的。是的。是的。没错。不要愤怒发推。

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. Do not rage tweet.

是的。

Yeah.

你是怎么找到这个地方的？这里怎么成为爸爸们最喜欢的卡拉 OK 地点？

How did you find this place? How did this become the dad's favorite uh karaoke spot?

哦，我是说，我认识了一位名叫 Forest Lou 的本地组织者活动家，然后他邀请我们过来，然后我们，你知道，决定成为这个地方的会员，因为我觉得这是其中一家店的会员制。

Oh, I mean I got to know a local organizer activist named Forest Lou and then he had us over and then we, you know, decided to get become members of the place cuz I mean I think that this is one of the stores membership.

是的。楼下有一个会员俱乐部，我是会员。我有一个小盒子……哦，哇。你知道，小牌子上写着“Twitter 威胁”。所以什么……

Yeah. There's a members club downstairs and I'm a member. I have a little box that... Oh, wow. You know, on the little placard it says Twitter Menace. So what...

太棒了。

That's amazing.

是的。但我是说，这是一个本地的地方，你知道。嗯，你知道，政客们在这里闲逛。呃，你知道，本地商人，唐人街，呃，你知道，活动家，就像人们，这就是一个本地的地方。我认为这对科技来说很重要。就像我认为……

Yeah. But I mean it's a local place, you know. Um, you know, politicians hang out here. uh, you know, local business people, Chinatown, uh, you know, activists, like people just this is a the local place. And I think that that's kind of important for tech. Like I think that...

我们当然应该参与我们的社区。

We should get involved in our communities for sure.

所以，你知道，这就是关键所在，你知道吗？

And so, you know, this is kind of the jam, you know?

我觉得我了解到你的就是，参与社区、参与本地政治社区，还有你知道，你本地实际的社区，呃，参与宗教社区和信仰社区，这有点像你的事情。显然 YC 是一个巨大的社区。是的。感觉你现在真的……现在我更理解你带我看的那个家了。感觉社区和把人们聚在一起有点像你的事情。

I feel like that's what I'm learning about you is that's that's like kind of your thing to get involved with the community, get involved with the local political community and and and you know, your your local actual community. uh to get involved with the religious community and you know the faith community. Obviously YC is a giant community. Yeah. It feels like you really now... now I understand that home that you showed me a little bit better. Like it feels like community and bringing people together is kind of your thing.

是的。

Yeah.

互联网就是这么疯狂，显然我们会受到攻击，比如那些网络暴民会来找你，诸如此类。但你知道，当你和某人坐下来喝一杯，真正了解对方的时候，

So the internet is this crazy thing and obviously we get attacked like you know these cancel mobs come for you like all this stuff but you know when you sit down for a drink with someone and you get to know someone

是啊，感觉就是不一样。所以我觉得我们需要做更多这样的事，而且我认为我们可以在旧金山这里做到。如果我们这样做，就能建设一个更好的城市，一个更好的城市。

Yeah. uh it's just it hits different and so I you know I do think that we need to do a lot more of that and I think we can do that right here in San Francisco and we can build a better one a much better city if we do that.

在你看来，旧金山的未来是什么？从这里开始会走向何方？

What's the future of San Francisco in your mind? Where do things go from here?

我是湾区人。我觉得这里有一种奇怪的反科技文化，在旧金山长大的人往往觉得科技的繁荣没有惠及他们。我认为这实际上是社区和政府的某种失败，而这些是我们能有所作为的。你知道，我最不愿意说“我不想交税”这种话。我觉得交税没问题，但我希望这些钱能用于保护我们的社区，确保我们的孩子能学代数，他们应该接受良好的教育。我相信一居室的月租不应该是一万美元，这就是

I am someone who's from the Bay. I feel like there's this weird anti-tech culture where people who grew up in San Francisco often don't feel like the prosperity of tech goes over to them and I think that that's actually somewhat of a failure of community and it's failure of government and those are things we can do something about right like you know I'm the last person to be like oh you know what like I don't want to pay taxes right like I think the tax like I'm fine to pay the taxes but I want the dollars to go to things that protect our community, that make sure our kids can learn algebra, like they should have good educations. I believe that rent should not be $10,000 a month for a one-bedroom and that's what

这就是你想建住房的原因。

which is why you want to build housing.

我们需要建住房。

we need to build housing

所以你知道，这是政府的失败，是对人民的失职。但你知道吗，这是美国。我记得和我朋友 Nancy Tongue 一起散步，我们之前提到过她，她现在旧金山民主党主席。

and so you know it's a it is a failure of government and you know it's dereliction of duty to the people but you know what like this is America you know I remember going on a walk with my friend Nancy Tongue who we were mentioning earlier she's now the head of the San Francisco Democratic party

哇。

wow

我们甚至赢回了旧金山的民主党。如果我们未来 10 年成功，你会听到“旧金山民主党”，它的含义会不同。现在它似乎意味着最糟糕的东西。我是民主党人，但当有人说“我是民主党人”时，我并不认同那种氛围，因为人们没有听到我想从旧金山为民主党带来的东西。但我认为这就是我们能做到的，而且会做到的。10 年后，人们会看着旧金山说，他们真的做到了，而且做得对，他们成功了。你可以从事科技，可以繁荣，可以创造富足，但也可以让它惠及社区里的每个人，比如那些住在你旁边、可能不从事科技的人。

we won back even the Democratic party in San Francisco and if we're successful in the next 10 years you're going to hear San Francisco Democrat and it's going to mean a different thing right now it means seems like, you know, the worst of what you might, you know, I am a Democrat and, you know, I am not okay with what uh the vibe is when someone says I'm a Democrat because, you know, people don't hear the things that I want for the Democratic party out of San Francisco. But I think that that's what we can and will be like in 10 years people will look at SF and say actually they did it and they did it right like they made it work. Like you can be in tech, you can be prosperity, you can create abundance, but then also you can make it work for everyone in your community like the people who live next to you who might not work in tech.

YC 的未来是什么？

What's the future of YC?

我们谈到了批次规模，谈到了 AI，谈到了自从你到那里以来它如何变化，但现在它从这里走向何方？

We talked about the batch size, we talked about AI, we talked about sort of how it's changed since you got there, but now where does it go from here?

你知道，我认为 YC 就像你说的，是繁荣之树。实际上，我觉得它的氛围就像 Airbnb。它是一个双边市场。YC 就是如此。Airbnb 有趣的是，需求几乎是无限的，世界上任何一座城市总有更多人想住。而 Airbnb 的限制因素实际上是房东。

You know, I think of YC as you said it's the tree of prosperity. Actually, the vibe I think is actually like Airbnb. Like it's a two-sided marketplace. and uh YC is yeah and you know the interesting thing about Airbnb is that there's virtually limitless demand right like there's always more people who want to stay in any given city in the world and uh you know the limiting reagent for Airbnb is actually hosts

对，所以是供给。

right so supply

所以这就是为什么我很高兴和你一起玩，和你成为朋友，看着你成长为演示日顶级投资者之一，我们的友谊也在增长。然后我想，我想资助你孕育的所有东西。另一方面，我希望你能进入 YC 所有最好的公司，因为这才是我们真正建设这件事的方式。实际上，你是我的超级房东。

so that's why some of it is like I'm so glad to hang out with you befriend you and just like see you grow as like you know one of the top investors at demo day that like our friendship grows And then I want, you know, I want to fund all the things that uh, you know, you preede and then on the flip side, I want you to come and like get into all the best companies at YC because like that's how we actually build this thing. Like you're my superhost actually.

谢谢你这么说。所以你是说供给是批次，是 YC 公司。

I appreciate you saying that. So you're saying it's the supply is the batch. The YC company.

不，供给是你，是那些将要投入工作的优秀投资者。

No, supply is you. Great investors who are going to do the work.

明白了。然后需求是批次。我的意思是，我不得不拒绝 99.3% 的人，对吧？我完全饱和了。所以我需要扩大 YC，这样我们就能有更多的创业者和更多的成功。

Got it. And then demand is the batch. I mean, I'm at like 99.3% of people I have to reject, right? I'm like totally pegged like and so I need to grow YC so that we can have more startup founders and more success in the world.

然后我需要确保你赚很多钱，你的团队能成长，你们做得很好，这就是我想生活的世界。我认为风险投资可以而且应该比现在大 10 倍。

and then I need to make sure that like you make a lot of money and your team can grow and you know you guys do great and that's that's like the world that I want to live in. It's like I think the venture can and should be 10 times bigger than it is now.

你觉得我们在车里谈到的资本不再是“大棒”这件事，你认为资本需要……哦，哇。那看起来像圣诞节的猪。

Do you think that we talked in the car a little bit about capital not being a bludgeon anymore? Do you think the capital needs Oh, wow. That's that's the Christmas uh looked like a pig.

是啊，是啊，那是给“玩具募捐”活动的。

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's for the toys for tots drive.

你认为资本会变得不那么像“大棒”，因此资本会更少。对资本的需求减少，因此随着时间的推移，资本会更少。你认为

Do you think the capital becomes less of a bludgeon, therefore there's less of it. There's less demand for capital, therefore there is less capital over time. Do you think

我认为它会走得更远。

I think it'll go far? It'll go farther.

它会走得更远。是的。那么，也许我问你，你认为 YC 的未来是什么？你认为风险投资的未来是什么？

It'll go further. Yeah. And so like how do maybe I asked you what do you think the future of YC is? What do you think the future of VC is?

我的意思是，我认为人们也许应该少一些联合，然后多做早期阶段。

I mean I think that like people should maybe club together less and then do more early stage.

我觉得那可能就是……

Like I think that that might be where

少一些联合。哦，我的意思是，2018 年的风险投资版本是，某某公司进来，然后我们的另一个朋友进来，然后我们的另一个朋友进来，然后搞定。

club together less. Oh, I mean there's, you know, the 2018 version of venture is like, you know, such and such firm comes in and then, you know, our other buddy comes in and then our other buddy comes in and then the fixes in.

就像，看，甚至别想攻击这个市场。你知道，有时它会奏效。然后我认为在 AI 时代，这越来越行不通。这是好消息。我不希望有七家市值万亿美元的公司。我认为那很糟糕。我认为我们应该有数千家市值数十亿到数百亿美元的公司，而且我实际上认为现在就是实现这一点的时刻。

It's like, look, like don't even try to attack this market. And, you know, sometimes it'll work. And then I think increasingly in the age of AI, it's not going to work. And that's good news. Like, I don't want uh, you know, there are seven companies worth a trillion dollars. Like, I think that that's bad. I think that we should have thousands of companies worth billions to tens of billions of dollars and I actually think that now is the moment where that's going to happen.

那么，你对现在投资早期阶段的普通风险投资人有什么建议？你会告诉他们怎么做？

So, so what is your advice for the average VC right now who invests early stage? What would you tell them to do?

我的意思是，

I mean,

比如像我这样的人，

somebody like me,

我的意思是，我认为你已经在做了。比如，出现。

I mean, I think you're already doing it. Like, show up.

出现，做早期阶段，在事情明朗之前投资有趣的人。然后我实际上认为现在就是这一切会奏效的时刻。

Show up, do early stage, you know, uh, you know, fun people before it's obvious. And then I actually think now was the moment where all of that is going to work,

对吧？好的，非常感谢。我不仅觉得我更了解了真实的 Gary Tan，而且我觉得我从一个可能比大多数人都更了解这座城市的人那里更好地了解了这座城市。所以，我真的很感激。期待新年快乐，谢谢你带我四处看看。

right? Well, thank you so much. I mean, not only do I feel like I got to know the real Gary Tan better, but I feel like I got to know this city better from somebody who probably knows it better than most. So, I really appreciate it. looking forward to a happy new year and uh thanks for showing me around.

干杯，兄弟。

Cheers, brother.

干杯，伙计。

Cheers, man.

非常感谢你观看这期与 Gary Tan 的特别版《Out of Office》。我觉得我真的了解了 Gary 和旧金山这座城市。

Thank you so much for watching this very special episode of Out of Office with Gary Tan. I feel like I really got to know Gary and the city of San Francisco.

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