从微软到 Meta：速度、作战室与信任的领导力课

在一个你可以成为任何人的世界里，请善良。这是 Fiona Fung。她从微软和 Meta 的基层一路晋升为高级总监。如今，她在 Anthropic 支持云代码团队。我问了她一路走来学到的一切。微软和 Facebook 之间有什么让你印象深刻的不同之处？

In a world where you can be anything, be kind. This is Fiona Fung. She grew to a senior director by rising through the ranks of Microsoft and Meta. And today she supports the Claude Code team at Anthropic. And I asked her for everything she learned along the way. What are the things that stood out to you that's different between Microsoft and Facebook?

肯定是速度。天哪，一个冲刺只持续一周。通常对我来说，一个冲刺是四周。

Definitely speed came to mind. Oh my gosh, a sprint lasts a week. Like usually a sprint for me was like four weeks.

有没有哪次你收到的反馈真正改变了你的职业生涯？

Was there ever a time where you received feedback and it really changed your career?

回想起来，那可能是我希望自己做得更好的一件事。

Looking back, that's probably one thing I wish I'd done better at.

以下是完整剧集。假设有一个项目，它会非常有影响力，但团队健康会受到影响，或者反过来。你如何做出这些决定？

Here's the full episode. Let's say there's some project, it's going to be really impactful, but team health is going to take a hit or vice versa. How do you make those calls?

哦，这个问题问得好。在 Facebook 市场部的日子里，我们遇到过不少这样的情况。我会说，要认识到什么时候情况几乎是生死攸关的。在 Facebook 市场部，我清楚地记得我们有过几次封锁或作战室，那时真的觉得我们需要集中精力，确保我们专注于真正要做的事情，并把它做好。实际上，我喜欢封锁或作战室的一点是，它能让团队专注于我们最初设定的目标，并确保我们全力以赴。但这确实会以团队士气为代价。所以，我的建议是，一定要与团队和领导层进行深思熟虑的权衡讨论。回想起来，在早期市场部的某些作战室里，那可能是我希望自己做得更好的地方。我希望我们当时能更坦诚。我们设定了一个非常激进的目标——我忘了是叫封锁还是作战室，因为后来我们改了团队名称——我们设定了一个非常激进的增长目标，不达到某个增长数字就不退出。回想起来，我觉得那个作战室实际上持续了很长时间。如果我有时间机器可以重来，我可能会重新审视那个目标，对所需时间更加现实。讨论团队士气和健康，然后非常坦诚地告诉团队：嘿，我们要一起踏上这段旅程，但这是我们预计需要的时间。

Oh, that's a really good one. We had quite a few of these in the Facebook marketplace days. I would say recognizing when a moment is really such that it's almost existential. So Facebook marketplace I would definitely remember we had a couple of lockdowns or war rooms where it really became wow we really needed to focus like make sure and actually that's one thing I like about lockdowns or war rooms. It allows team to focus on what it is that we were really setting out to do and making sure we're focused on doing that really well. But it does come at a cost to team morale. So, my advice is really have those deliberate trade-off discussions with the team and leadership. Looking back, that's probably one thing I wish I'd done better at in the early marketplace days in some of those war rooms. I wish we were also more upfront. We took a very aggressive goal for I forgot if we called it lockdown or war room because we change team names after a while but we took a very aggressive growth goal so we weren't going to exit until we hit a certain growth number and looking back I think that could have been like and that war room actually went on for like a really long time. If I had the time machine to do it all over, I probably would have taken a look at that and been much more realistic of how long that was going to take. Discuss the morale and team health of the team and then just be very upfront with the team of hey we're going to go on this journey together but this is how long we think it's going to take.

我想到作战室时，会想到大家在一个大房间里，可能为了发布之类的事情待上一周。那次作战持续了多久？

I mean when I think of war room I think of yeah everyone's in a big room and it's for maybe a week for a launch or something like that. How long was that war?

天哪，感觉至少有两个月，这就是我的意思。我们设定了一个增长目标，但当时我们想，也许只需要做一些修复。学到了很多教训。我仍然记得在那次作战中，我们同时推出了 75 个实验。当时我们在门洛帕克有一个房间，在西雅图也有一个房间。但我觉得，没有人一开始就知道，我们没有意识到会花那么长时间。这绝对是一个教训。

Oh my gosh, it felt like at least 2 months and that was what I mean. We took a growth goal, but I think at the time we were like, well, maybe it's a couple of fixes that we had to do. There were so many lessons learned. I still remember in that war we launched 75 experiments at one time, too, when we were trying to and so and we were in a literal like there was a room in Menlo Park and a room in Seattle. But I think that one no one knew going into it we didn't realize it was going to take us that long. So that was definitely a lesson learned.

在微软职业生涯的某个阶段，你成为了管理经理的经理。我很好奇，当你从一线经理转变为管理他人的人时，你经历过的重大陷阱或成长痛苦是什么？

At some point in your career at Microsoft, you became a manager of managers. I'm curious like what is the big pitfall that maybe you experienced or maybe like growing pain when you went from a frontline manager to someone who's managing others.

这又回到了伙伴关系上。实际上，我来分享我的故事。我第一次支持经理或成为经理的经理，是和两位不同的经理合作。一位是 TypeScript 团队的经理，他们是极其出色的工程师，可能仍然是我共事过的最好的编译器工程师之一。所以我记得一开始，我就说，嘿，我们一直像伙伴一样合作，你擅长什么，我擅长什么，我们如何分工合作。所以我想，当你开始支持经理时，这可能是独特的一点——他们不仅拥有个人贡献者的技能，还拥有管理技能。所以有更多机会去发现你们如何互补，在最需要的地方互相帮助。所以这是一个非常好的新方法，与支持所有个人贡献者相比是全新的。另一个变得更重要的事情是建立“信任但要验证”的能力，因为有很多信任，你知道作为经理，我们有很多领导团队的责任，但要确保——因为我认为有时你可能会听到建议说，哦，授权可以扩大规模，但如果授权太多而不做信任验证，你会对项目失去太多联系，所以找到正确的平衡，其中一些来自经验，但也要确保鼓励与你支持的人进行非常透明的对话。对所有经理，我要求的一件事是，请让我们彼此快速反馈，同时始终保持高度透明，什么做得好，什么做得不好。你知道那个 meme 吗？狗在着火的房间里端着咖啡杯说“没事的”，那是我的噩梦。如果事情真的很糟糕，我记得有一次我支持一个人，我说嘿，事情怎么样，他们说哦，没事，我说天哪，我这边可不顺利，我很佩服你觉得没事。所以，这始于——因为如果我们能真正讨论那些困难、真正需要帮助的事情，我们才能为团队解决问题，而不是陷入“没事的”狗 meme 的境地。

It kind of goes back to that partnership. Actually I will share my story. The first time I supported managers or became manager of managers I guess was with two different managers. One was manager for TypeScript team and they are brilliant brilliant engineers, still probably one of the best compiler engineers I've ever worked with. So I remember right in the beginning I'm like hey, we were always collaborating as a partnership, what are the things you're really strong at, what are the things I'm good at, and how do we divide and conquer. So I would say that's maybe one thing that's unique when you start supporting managers and managers like they are also going to have additional skill sets that's not just IC skill sets, also manager skill sets. So it's even more opportunity to figure out how you both can complement each other and help each other where it's most needed. So that was one really good new approach that was new compared to supporting all ICs. I would say the other one that becomes even more important is building that trust but verify muscle because there's a lot of trust like you know as managers we have a lot of responsibilities leading teams but making sure that you know because I think sometimes you might also hear advice of oh delegate so it could scale up if you delegate too much but don't do the trust and verify you lose touch with a project a little bit too much so finding that right balance and some of that comes from experience but also making sure encourage that really transparent conversation with folks you support. To all managers one thing I ask for is please let's have fast feedback with each other but also let's be always super transparent about what's going well and what's not going well. You know that meme of the dog holding the coffee cup in a room of fire 'this is fine' that's my nightmare. If something's really that I remember once I was supporting someone I'm like hey how are things going and they're like oh it's fine I'm like oh my gosh I'm not doing fine I'm impressed that you're doing fine. So, but it starts with just because if we can actually discuss things that are hard to really need help, that's how we can actually solve it for a team versus the 'this is fine' dog meme.

你提到要成为一名好经理，你应该享受培养他人或指导他人。我很好奇，既然你已经做了这么久，你有什么指导他人的建议吗？

You mentioned to be a good manager, you should enjoy growing others or mentoring others. And I'm curious, now that you've done it for so long, do you have any tips on how to mentor others?

我会从与受指导者进行一次非常明确的对话开始，了解他们在这段关系中寻求什么。例如，指导三个月后，对他们来说成功是什么样的，或者六个月后是什么样的，这样对双方来说都是有效利用时间。另一个建议是，指导（mentoring）和教练（coaching）是有区别的，有时要确保进行明确的对话，看看对方在寻找什么。在指导中，你倾听并尝试给出有用的建议。在教练中，你实际上是在充当对方的镜子，帮助他们发现自己内心的答案。

I would start with just a really explicit conversation with your mentee of what they're looking for in the relationship. So for example after 3 months of mentoring what does success look like to them or after 6 months what does it look like, just so that then it's good effective use of time for you both. I would also say another tip is there's a difference between mentoring and coaching and sometimes making sure you have that explicit conversation to see what the other person's looking for. In mentoring, you're listening and trying to dispel helpful advice. In coaching, you're actually acting as a mirror for the other person to help them discover the answers within themselves.

所以，思考这两种不同的模式也可能有帮助。

So, thinking about those two different modes as well could help.

我明白了。是的，我好奇的一点是，你觉得这段关系应该由被指导者还是指导者来推动？

I see. Yeah, that's one thing I was curious is how much of it do you feel like should be driven by the mentee versus the mentor?

老实说，最有效的指导关系，目标是由被指导者设定的。当然，指导者可以用生活经验或不同资源的建议来帮助。但对于所有寻找指导关系的人，我会说，为你希望从指导关系中获得的东西设定非常明确的目标。

I honestly the most effective mentoring relationships, it comes from that goal being set by the mentee. And for sure the mentor can help with like life experiences or even advice of different resources. But for all the folks out there looking for mentoring relationship, I would say set really explicit goals for what it is that you're looking to receive out of the mentoring relationship.

如果你要给个人贡献者一些建议，关于一对一会议中最好的做法是什么，你会给出什么建议？

If you were to give advice to IC's on like what's the best thing you can do in one-on-ones, what would that advice be?

我会说把状态报告之类的事情留给异步形式。比如，在 Anthropic 我们用 Slack，所以可以是 Slack 消息。或者我喜欢创建一个一对一文档，作为我们之间的活文档，这样任何异步更新都可以放在里面。我会说把真正的一对一时间留给你想进行的对话。无论是你想学习新东西，还是觉得这是一个深入与经理讨论工作的好机会，因为可能会有有趣的产品对话。无论是什么，我都会把一对一的时间留给那些实时对话，而任何状态报告，你可以随意使用异步沟通方式。

I would say save status reporting and all that for some asynchronous form. If you know, like here at Anthropic it's Slack, and so it could be a Slack message. Or I like to create a one-on-one doc that is a living doc between both of us, so that any async update we can just put in there. I would say save the actual one-on-one time for any conversations you want to have. Whether it's you're curious about learning about something new, or you think, hey, it's a good opportunity for me to dig a little bit deeper into the work that I'm doing with my manager because there might be some interesting product conversations. Whatever it is, I would save the one-on-one time for those live conversations, and anything that's status reporting, you know, you can feel free to use the asynchronous forms of communication.

是的，我经常听到这个，但我仍然认为很多人在一对一会议中还是会做状态报告。

Yeah, I think I hear that a lot, but I still think a lot of people do status reports anyways in one-on-ones.

那么，当时你加入 Facebook，离开微软加入 Facebook 背后的故事是什么？

So, going into working at Facebook at the time, what's the story behind you leaving Microsoft and joining Facebook?

当然，我有很多朋友在 Facebook 工作，他们非常享受，也是出色的工程师，但我在微软总有一些事情想完成。比如 Visual Studio 编辑器或调试器。我最后参与的项目是 JavaScript 和 TypeScript。所以我真的很想和团队一起把 TypeScript 1.0 发布出去。但后来在 2014 年底，我收到了 Facebook 的消息，发消息的人后来成了我在 Facebook 的第一任经理。我们曾在 Visual Studio 上合作过，他说：‘嘿，我注意到人们在 Facebook 群组里买卖产品，我们正在考虑围绕这个构建一个产品，我们要离开这里了。我就在其中一个群组里。’那是一次很棒的经历。我第一次建立了有意义的新联系，因为那时候，Facebook 对我来说更多是重新联系高中朋友或同事，我从未建立过新联系。但我告诉他，我真的很想和团队一起完成 TypeScript 1.0。但那是 Facebook 吸引我的一个重大原因。这是一个完全不同于开发工具的梦想，是在 Facebook 上实现商业的梦想。因为我非常以使命为导向。那时候我充满热情：如果我们能实现这种商业形式，第一，我们在科技行业非常幸运，可以买得起大多数新东西，并且可能在 6 小时内送达——24 小时甚至都不够快。世界上大多数地方不是这样的，5 美元或 10 美元的差异可能决定我是否买得起。大多数人买不起新东西，买二手货是一种负担得起的方式。这是第一点。第二，我内心是个环保主义者。我觉得世界上有这么多商品，如果能帮助打造一个平台，让这些商品获得第二次、第三次或第四次生命，那就太好了。最后一点是支持小企业。我真的很喜欢本地小企业，我觉得它们是任何社区的命脉。所以有一个平台能让某人无需先开实体店就能创业，我对此充满热情。这就是整个使命。这是 2015 年加入 Facebook 的一个重大吸引力。另一个原因是，那时我在微软已经 11 年半了，我觉得自己在微软技术栈中已经相当熟练，但我意识到如果把我带出那个泡泡，有太多东西我不知道。所以部分原因也是想确保自己学会如何在微软生态系统的安全茧之外成为一名有效的工程师。

So, definitely I've had a lot of friends that were really really enjoying Facebook and they're great engineers, but there was always something I really wanted to finish at Microsoft. So, you know, whether it was Visual Studio editor or debugger. The last project I was working on was JavaScript and TypeScript. So I really cared about being there with the team to get TypeScript 1.0 out the door. But then I got a ping from Facebook in late 2014 from actually who ended up being my first manager at Facebook. We worked together on Visual Studio and he's like, 'Hey, I'm noticing people buying and selling products on Facebook groups and we're thinking of building a product around it and we're going to get out of here. I'm in one of those groups.' It was an amazing experience. The first time I made meaningful new connections because in those days, Facebook for me was more about reconnecting with high school friends or co-workers. I never created any new connections. But I told him, but I really wanted to be with a team to help finish TypeScript 1.0. But that was one big draw to Facebook. It was just this dream of enabling something totally different from dev tools, but the dream of enabling commerce on Facebook. Just because I really like—there were three things I really believed in that kind of starting with commerce. Because I'm very mission-driven. So in those days I was passionate about: wow, if we can enable this style of commerce, number one, we're very fortunate in tech, you know, we can afford most things new and probably deliver it in 6 hours—like 24 hours is not even fast enough. Most of the world isn't like that, and a difference of $5 or $10 can be a difference of can I afford it or can I not. You know, most folks can't afford things new, or folks may not be able to afford things new, and buying them used would be a way to be able to afford that. That was one. The second was environmentalist at heart. I feel like there's all these goods in the world. It'd be great if I can help work on a platform that enables those goods to get their second, third, or fourth life. And the last one's just supporting small businesses. I really love local small businesses. I feel like they're the lifeblood of any community. So having a platform that enables someone to kickstart a business without having to get a brick-and-mortar store first, I was really passionate about. So that was all the mission. And so that was one big draw to join Facebook in 2015. The other was I was by this point at Microsoft 11 and a half years, and I felt, oh yeah, I've become reasonably proficient at being a Microsoft engineer in the Microsoft stack, but I realized if you take me outside of that bubble, there were so many things I didn't know. And so part of it too was wanting to make sure how I can learn to be an effective engineer when I'm not within the safe cocoon of the Microsoft ecosystem.

你到了 Facebook 并体验了一段时间的文化后，我很好奇，有哪些事情让你觉得微软和 Facebook 不同？

After you got to Facebook and experienced the culture for a bit, curious like what are the things that stood out to you where you saw that's different between Microsoft and Facebook?

有些东西肯定是相似的，比如和非常优秀的人一起工作，人们对自己做的事情充满热情。速度肯定是其中之一。Facebook Marketplace 当时刚起步，我们最初版本每周更新。它实际上是在 www.facebook.com 上。我记得每周都有更新，我当时想：‘天哪，一个冲刺只有一周。’在 Visual Studio，一个冲刺通常是四周。那时我觉得那已经比刚开始时短了。所以速度绝对是。Facebook 当时对我来说也感觉小得多，尤其是从微软过来。墙上曾经有一张海报写着：‘在 Facebook，没有什么是别人的问题。’我真的很喜欢那种文化。无论你的角色是什么，如果有问题，每个人都会参与帮助。这是我非常喜欢和欣赏的一点。

There were things that were definitely similar, like work with really great people, people really passionate about what they're doing. Definitely speed came to mind. So Facebook Marketplace just operated. We were doing weekly updates at the time with the first version. It was actually on www.facebook.com. So I remember there were weekly updates. I remember going, 'Oh my gosh, a sprint lasts a week.' Like usually a sprint for me was like four weeks at Visual Studio. Back then I thought that was already a short time compared to where it started. So definitely speed. Facebook also felt much smaller to me back then, especially coming from Microsoft. So there used to be this poster on the wall that says 'Nothing at Facebook is somebody else's problem.' And I really love that culture. It was no matter your role, if there was a problem, everybody leaned in to help. And so that was something I really really loved and appreciated.

当你最终离开 Meta 时，我看到你写了一篇徽章帖子，数百人在说他们为什么喜欢和你一起工作，我注意到你做的几件事的模式，很多很多人说：‘我真的很喜欢和你一起工作的那个部分。’所以，我想逐一谈谈这些，问问你的想法。第一个是关于吃自家狗粮。很多人说他们很欣赏你作为一个优秀的合作伙伴，报告产品中的问题并使用产品。所以我很好奇，你为什么这么频繁地吃自家狗粮？为什么它很重要？

When you eventually left Meta, I saw that you wrote this badge post and hundreds of people were saying the reason why they enjoyed working with you, and I noticed several patterns of things that you had done where many many dozens of people were saying, 'I really like that particular part of working with you.' So, I'd love to go on each of these and ask you your thoughts on them. So, the first one is on dogfooding. A lot of people are saying they really appreciated you being a great partner and reporting problems in the product and using the products. So, I'm curious why do you do dogfooding as much as you do? And why is it important?

哦，我喜欢这个话题。这是我最喜欢的话题之一。正如我提到的，我大学毕业后的第一份工作就是用 Visual Studio 来构建 Visual Studio。所以我真的很感激能有那样的经历。

Oh, I love it. It's one of my favorite topics. So, as I mentioned, my first job out of college was using Visual Studio to build Visual Studio. So I'm really grateful that I got to experience that.

我想这就是我学到的：哇，我要每天使用自己正在构建的产品。这就是最初的来源。我觉得这不仅让我对用户的体验有了同理心，还让我对产品有了很好的把握。而且用 VS 构建 VS 也很方便。但后来我把这种做法带到了 Facebook Marketplace。我记得第一次测试发布是在西雅图地区和夏威夷。我会攒一堆通常我们会捐掉的东西，我丈夫很烦，问为什么卖这些？我说，不，我需要好的库存来在 Facebook Marketplace 上卖。那不仅在使用产品和获取洞察方面非常有收获，而且从结识 Facebook Marketplace 的用户、看到你的工作产生影响中也获得了灵感。所以这贯穿始终。后来在 RL，我大量狗食我们的 VR Quest 设备，或者记得我们刚开始做 Ray-Ban Stories（后来变成 Ray-Ban Meta）时，正值疫情，所以在家狗食了很多设备。作为经理，你不能每天或像希望的那样频繁地写代码，但狗食产品让你体验到团队在做什么。我把它看作我的创造时间。比如，在我上一个负责 Horizon OS 的 VR 产品岗位上，每当我能够帮助调试一个难以复现的问题时，那就是我的创造时间，我觉得这是我为产品质量做贡献的小方式。而且，不知道为什么，我房子的构造让我总能复现某些地板高度 bug，我很高兴能拿到那些日志。

And I think that's where I've learned, oh wow, yeah, I'm going to use a product every day that I'm building. So that's where that initially came from. And I feel it really gave not only empathy for what our users are going through, but it really gives you a good pulse of the product. Plus it was easy on VS because you're using VS to build VS. But then I guess I carried that over to Facebook Marketplace. I remembered our first test launch was in the Seattle area and also Hawaii. And I remembered I would have a pile of things that usually we would have donated and my husband was getting so annoyed like, why do we sell this stuff? I'm like, no, I need good inventory for me to sell on Facebook Marketplace. And that was where actually was super rewarding not only in terms of using the product and gaining insights, but also just inspiration from meeting users of Facebook Marketplace and seeing that what you do makes a difference. So I think that just kind of carried throughout. So then yeah when I was on RL it was a lot of dogfooding of our VR Quest devices or I remember when we were first starting up Ray-Ban Stories which now became Ray-Ban Meta it was actually during COVID so then it was a lot of dogfooding devices from home. But yeah like I think definitely as a manager you don't get to code every day or nearly as often as one would like but dogfooding the product that's what enables you to experience what it is that your team is working on. And I like to think of it as my maker time. So, for example, in my last role working on VR product with Horizon OS, anytime I was able to help us debug some hard to repro issue, that was my maker time and I felt it was my little way to contribute to the quality of the product. Plus, I don't know why the way my house is built, I was always able to repro certain floor height bugs and I was really happy at being able to get those logs.

我还注意到，当经理或领导狗食时，也会给 bug 增加一些紧迫感。有些事大家可能都知道，但会被忽略。但当你或 Boz 或某人说‘嘿，这个东西坏了，我用不了’时，基本上大家就会去修。所以感觉工程领导可以让大家聚焦在重要的事情上。

I noticed something different, too, when a manager or a leader dogfoods it adds some urgency to the bugs as well. So, there might be some thing that everyone kind of knows about, but it kind of gets lost. But then, when you or Boz or someone says, 'Hey, this thing's broken. I can't use this. Everyone it's a se basically, people are fixing it. So it feels like engineering leaders can kind of focus people on what matters.

我想说这也是我加入新团队时得到最多反馈的一点，包括 Instagram，我会收到消息说‘你用我们的产品太好了，你关心我们在做什么’。所以我也认为作为领导，这是与整个团队建立关系和融洽的好方法。

I would say that's also the thing I get the most feedback on when I join a new team even like including Instagram I would just get outreach from ango oh it's awesome that you're using our product and you care about what we do. So, I also think as leaders it's a great way to build relationship and rapport with your overall team.

鉴于你如此高产，有没有什么狗食的技巧？

Do you have any tips on how to dogfood given you're so prolific?

顺便说一句，我喜欢 Facebook 上仍然有这个 X Meta 产品反馈群。我还在上面发帖。所以提前感谢 Meta 回复我的反馈。我想说找到一种融入生活的方式，给你带来快乐。现在我很兴奋，因为我用 Claude Code 构建 Claude Code。很久以来第一次能发布生产软件，我忘了写代码、发布并看到客户反馈有多有趣。所以这里又很容易了，因为它就是我日常工作的一部分。但比如在 VR 工作时，想想生活中真正喜欢什么，然后找到方式融入 VR。比如，我喜欢用 VR 头显做两件事：一是锻炼，Supernatural，我超爱那个体验；另一个是极端相反，超级沙发土豆，我喜欢戴着 VR 头显看电影并织毛衣。这些都是我喜欢并带来快乐的事。这让狗食更愉快，更像乐趣而不是任务。它不应该是任务。当它变成任务时，你就想‘哦，这……’你总是想保持有趣和吸引人。但对领导来说，另一个有效的方法是和团队一起做产品会议。在我上一个 VR 团队，每周五，我和我的 PM 搭档 Carmen、设计搭档 Andreas 会举行领导狗食会议，针对任何我们认为即将发布的功能。我们戴上头显，然后给出非常快速的反馈。这样融入狗食也能让你给团队非常快速的反馈。

By the way, I love that on Facebook we still have this X Meta product feedback group. So, I'm still posting on that. So, thanks in advance, Meta, for responding to my feedback post. I would say find a way to integrate into your life that brings you joy. Now here I'm super excited because I'm using Claude Code to build Claude Code. First time I've been able to ship production software in a really long time and I forget how much fun it is to work on code and ship it and be able to see customer feedback. So here it's kind of easy again because it's just part of my day job. But I would say for example when it was working on VR thinking about what is it that I really enjoy in life and finding a way to incorporate that in VR. So for example, what I love to use the VR headsets was one was working out. Supernatural. I love love love that experience. But the other one was opposite end of the spectrum, super couch potato. I love to watch movies and knit while I, you know, so I would like to knit and watch movies while I'm wearing the VR headset. And those are just things that I enjoy and bring me joy. So it makes dogfooding even more enjoyable and less of a chore. Or it shouldn't be a chore. I think when it becomes a chore, that's when you're like, 'Oh, this is...' you always want to try to keep it fun and engaging. But I would say to leaders too, another effective way to dogfood is do product sessions with your team. So on my last team in VR, we would do every Friday, me, my PM partner Carmen, and my design partner Andreas, we would hold these almost like leadership dogfooding sessions of any feature that we think is about ready to ship. We put on the headset and then give really fast feedback. So incorporating dogfooding that way also allows you to give really quick feedback to your team as well.

另一件事，我看到几十个人说很多 PM 说‘我很喜欢和你共事’，包括 PM 总监和其他 PM。我很好奇作为领导，你有什么与产品管理合作好的建议？

Another thing that I saw like dozens of people saying is there were a lot of PMs that were saying I really enjoyed working with you or directors of PM or various other PMs. And so I'm curious what's your tip on as a leader how to work well with product management?

哦，天哪，我在 Meta 很幸运能和这么多优秀的 PM 共事。一开始，我们作为领导团队，真正要达成什么？各自的长处在哪里？因为工作总是比人多。所以和产品合作时，我的 PM 伙伴们会主动说‘这个我来，那个你来’，分工合作很棒。我觉得所有和我共事的 PM 也欣赏我大量使用产品。所以我们很多一对一会议也会即兴讨论产品，这很能引起共鸣。

Ooh. I would say, oh my gosh, I was really fortunate at Meta to work with so many amazing PMs. Really starting initially to go, hey, overall as our group, right, as a leadership group, what are we really setting out to do? And where do we each bring the strengths? Because there's always going to be more work than people. And so with product like, with my PM partners being up front going, okay, I got this and you got that like that whole divide and conquer was great. I think all the PMs I work with also appreciated that I did use the product a lot. So, a lot of our one-on-ones would also be just riffing on product discussions and so I think that also really resonated with my PM partners.

我明白了。所以，狗食的另一个价值。

I see. So, another value of dogfooding.

没错。

That's right.

我明白了。我还看到很多人提到，我看了很多徽章帖子，但异常多的人提到善良，以及你构建的组织文化。我也看到你写过善良。我很好奇你对工程组织中善良及其价值的看法。

I see. And then I also saw just generally a lot of people calling out I've seen a lot of badge posts at this point, but an unusual amount of people calling out kindness and like in the culture of the orgs that you build. And I also saw that you wrote about kindness as well. I'm curious like your thoughts on kindness in engineering orgs and the value of it.

哦，我喜欢。是的，我徽章帖子的最后一条是‘在一个你可以成为任何东西的世界里，请善良’，对吧？这可能源于我记得疫情期间，那时我在做 AR 和 VR 操作系统。我们试图在疫情期间发布 Quest 2。我们还在孵化 Ray-Ban Stories，并准备发布它。每个人，尤其是当你和设备打交道时，没有办公室或实验室可以轻松进入，或者不能让固件工程师、软件工程师和电气工程师挨着调试。

Oh, I love it. Yeah, I think my last bullet in my badge post was in a world where you can be anything, be kind, right? It probably comes from I remember during COVID I mean during that time I was working on AR and VR operating systems. We were trying to ship Quest 2 during COVID. We were getting incubating like Ray-Ban Stories and getting ready to ship that too. It was just everybody especially when you work with devices and you don't have an office or a lab that you can get to as easily or you can't have firmware engineers next to software engineers next to electrical engineers to debug.

每个人都为这些产品的问世付出了很多。但疫情期间，大家在家里也经历了很多。我觉得那是我真正体会到这一点的时候。一对一沟通非常重要，我总是尽量安排。我的祖母住在加拿大的一家养老院，因为疫情，我无法去看她。那段时间没人能进养老院。与养老院里的亲人联系的唯一方式就是 FaceTime，但护士和护工也非常紧张，所以能约到的 FaceTime 时段非常少，而且你永远不知道什么时候能约上。我记得我姑妈提前一小时发消息说：‘我们约到了和祖母的 FaceTime，但正好赶上我支持的一个一对一沟通。’我当时很不好意思说：‘嘿，非常抱歉，这么临时通知你。我知道我们本来要讨论很多重要的事情，我们都很期待。但我说：‘我祖母那边约到了 FaceTime，我们能取消吗？’我记得他说：‘哦，好的，没问题。’对他来说，可能根本没把这当作一种善意的举动。但对我来说，这产生了巨大的影响，可能远超他的想象，因为我当时真的很纠结要不要和祖母通话，因为我从来不想取消一对一沟通。所以，这大概就是开始。每个人在生活中都可能经历很多。我们永远不知道别人正在经历什么。工作中，我们都在尽力做到最好，努力做那些不容易的伟大事情。所以，是的，我一直想着：在一个你可以成为任何人的世界里，请善良，因为我们都在经历彼此无法想象的事情。

Everybody really did so much to make those products happen. But with COVID, everybody was also going through a lot at home. I think that was when it really struck home for me. One-on-ones are really important, and I always want to try to make them. My grandmother was living in Canada in an assisted living facility, and because of COVID, I couldn't travel to visit her. No one could go into the nursing facilities during that time. The only way to have time with loved ones in that nursing home was FaceTime, but they were also super strapped on nurses and helpers, so there were very few slots where you could get a FaceTime slot where someone can go in with an iPad, and you never knew when it would happen. I remember my aunt messaged me an hour before to go, 'Okay, we got a FaceTime slot with grandma, but it was going to be with one of the one-on-ones I was supporting.' I felt really bad to say, 'Hey, I'm so sorry last minute. I knew we were going to discuss all these important things, too, because we were both looking forward to it. But I said, 'My grandma, I get this FaceTime slot with her. Is it okay for us to cancel?' I remember him saying, 'Oh, yeah, sure. No problem.' I think for him, he probably didn't even think of that as an act of kindness. But for me, it had such an amazing impact, more than he would have known, because I was really struggling with whether to chat with grandma or not, since I never want to cancel a one-on-one. So that was kind of when it started. It comes from everybody probably going through a lot in their lives. We never know what somebody is going through. Work is we're all trying to do our best and trying to do epic things, which are not going to be easy. So yeah, always thinking about in a world where you can be anything, be kind, because we're all going through things that none of us have an idea about.

转到你在 Anthropic 的经历，我很好奇，在所有其他选择中，Anthropic 的什么让你兴奋，你为什么加入？

Transitioning to your experience at Anthropic, I'm curious what excited you about Anthropic over all the other options and why did you join?

哦，正如你所知，我仍然是个 VR 迷。所以我真的很喜欢在 Meta 做 VR，做 Horizon OS。我甚至没在找新的机会。唯一的选择就是加入 Anthropic 或者继续做 VR。我当时很开心，和优秀的人一起工作，做我充满热情的产品。所以我觉得很幸运。在内部，我也在用 DevMate，我记得是 Sonnet 模型，来构建一些工具帮助工作。所以我亲眼目睹了这有多么变革性。一开始你可能在新闻上听说，但直到你亲身体验，才会发现这不是未来的事情。AI 已经在这里了。它已经在改变我们的工作方式。我一直对这个领域充满热情，但离开 Meta 还是很难。但随着我和 Anthropic 的人聊得越多，我越被他们以使命为导向的氛围所吸引。这让我想起了 2015 年加入 Facebook 和 Facebook Marketplace 的原因之一。在那个环境中，每个人都使命一致，全力以赴，确保我们能构建造福人类、安全第一的 AI。这种使命导向给我留下了深刻印象，非常吸引我。我喜欢在每个人都使命驱动、团队一心的团队工作。所以这大概是我告别 Meta、加入 Anthropic 的最大原因。

Oh, so I was, as you could tell, I'm still a big VR fan. So I actually really loved working at Meta on VR, on Horizon OS. So I wasn't even looking for a new adventure. The only option would have been join Anthropic or stay working on VR. I was really happy working with amazing people, working on a product I'm really passionate about. So I feel very lucky about that. Internally, I was also using DevMate, I think it was a Sonnet model, to build some tools to help out at work. So I saw firsthand how this is just transformative. At first you might hear about it on the news, but until you experience it, it's not like a future thing. AI is already here. It's already changing how we work. I was always very passionate about the space, but it was still hard for me to say farewell to Meta. But the more people I talked with at Anthropic, I was really drawn to how mission-oriented everyone was. It actually reminded me of one reason why I joined Facebook and Facebook Marketplace back in 2015. Being in that environment where everybody is so mission-aligned and all-in just to make sure we can build AI that benefits humanity with safety first. I was really impressed with that mission-orientedness, and it really appealed to me. I love working on teams where everyone's mission-driven and one team mentality. So that was probably the biggest draw for why I said farewell to Meta and joined Anthropic.

你刚加入 Facebook 时，它非常使命驱动。随着时间的推移，你在 Facebook 或 Meta 时，文化有变化吗？

When you started at Facebook it was very mission-driven. Did the culture change over time when you were at Facebook or Meta?

我认为随着时间的推移，文化确实发生了变化。顺便说一句，我认为文化确实会变，因为它是一个活生生的东西。我以前在 Facebook 的 AMA 新兵训练营演讲中说过，记住文化不只是墙上的海报，而是通过你的行动体现的。所以确实如此，而且随着 Facebook 的成长，文化变化也是合理的。就使命驱动而言，仍然有很多人对自己的工作充满热情。例如，VR 团队的所有人都真心希望 VR 成功。所以这个主题仍然存在。我认为始终重要的是回到‘嘿，你对什么充满热情？’实际上，我记得我在 2017 年左右开始有这种感觉。很多新兵训练营的学员会在 Facebook 西雅图班车上问我：‘嘿，我是新兵。能和你聊聊，给点建议吗？我在找要加入哪个团队？’很多问题都是‘你觉得我在哪个团队能产生最大影响？’我记得我说：‘嘿，但你对什么充满热情？你加入是为了做你充满热情的事情，或者你相信的使命。’所以这就是为什么我认为始终重要的是思考那份热情是什么，或者一个人热衷的使命是什么。

I think over time the culture definitely changed. By the way, I think culture does change because it's a living, breathing thing. I used to give these Facebook AMA boot camp talks, and I said remember culture is not just a poster on a wall, it's through your actions. So definitely, and it makes sense as Facebook grew, I think culture changed. I would say in terms of the mission-drivenness, there were still folks that are very passionate about what they do. For example, everybody around VR really wanted to make VR successful. So that theme was still there. I think it's always important to go back to 'Hey, what are you passionate about?' Actually, I remember I started feeling this way around 2017. A lot of boot campers would ask me when I would take the Facebook Seattle shuttle in those days, 'Hey, I'm a boot camper. Can I chat with you, get some advice? I'm looking for which team to join?' A lot of it was just 'Which team do you think I can have the most impact?' And I remember saying, 'Hey, but what are you passionate about? You join to do something because there's something you're passionate about or some mission you believe in.' So that's why I think it's always important to think about what that passion is or what the mission one is passionate about.

如果两者兼得，那毫无疑问，比如一个既有影响力又有热情的团队。但如果必须权衡，比如一个与另一个，你在给一个加入公司的人建议时，你会怎么说？如何应对？比如一个影响力较小但你真的充满热情的角色，或者一个非常有影响力但你真的不想做的角色……

If you could have both it's a no-brainer like a team where there's impact and there's passion. But if you had to make the tradeoff like one versus the other and you're advising someone who's joining a company, what would you say? How to navigate that? Like a less impactful role but you're really passionate, or it's extremely impactful but you don't really want to...

实际上，我会说和自己坦诚对话。在一对一沟通中，我喜欢问任何我支持的新人：‘嘿，你在管理伙伴关系中寻找什么？什么做得好？什么做得不好？’我用的另一个工具是问：‘嘿，什么对你重要？什么激励你？为什么？’没有正确或错误的答案。但我用这个来了解什么对某人重要，因为每个人都不一样。对一个人来说，可能是‘我真的想要影响力’或‘我真的想学习’或‘我真的想和优秀的人一起工作。’只要确保你和你的经理分享这些，这样你就不会猜测什么对对方重要，而它可能重要也可能不重要。

Actually, I would say have that honest conversation with yourself. In one-on-ones, I like to ask anyone I'm supporting new, 'Hey, what do you look for in a manager partnership? What's worked well? What hasn't worked well?' Another tool I use is I ask, 'Hey, what's important to you? What's motivating to you? Why?' There are no right or wrong answers. But I use that to learn what is important to someone, because it's different for everyone. For a person, it might be 'I really want an impact' or 'I really want to learn' or 'I really want to work with great people.' Just make sure you're sharing that with your manager so that you're not guessing what's important to the other person when it may or may not be important.

所以你在 Anthropic 入职已经两个月了。我很好奇，在入职过程中有什么有趣的见解或特别突出的事情吗？

So you've been onboarding at Anthropic for 2 months at this point. I'm curious, is there any interesting insights in your onboarding or things that really stand out to you?

哦。

Ooh.

当然。我谈了很多关于使命的事。加入之前，面试中遇到的每个人都很好，你会想：'哇，每个人都真的这么有使命感，还是这只是个口号？'从入职第一天起，你就看到：'是的，以造福全人类为使命来构建 AI，这是一份巨大的责任，每个人都铭记在心。'所以这确实是文化的核心和 DNA，而不仅仅是口号。这绝对让我印象深刻。

Definitely. I talked so much about mission. Before I joined, everybody that I met in the interview loops were great, and you do wonder, 'Wow, is everybody truly this mission-driven, or is it just a tagline?' Starting from day one onboarding, you see, 'Oh yeah, being mission-driven to build AI that benefits all of humanity with source is this big responsibility that's really on top of mind for everyone.' So that was really like, 'Okay, this is core to the culture and DNA, and not just a slogan.' That definitely stood out.

我想说加入 Claude Code 后，速度——我记得在 Marketplace 的日子，那时我觉得我们行动已经很快了。Claude Code，我的意思是，它就像时间扭曲，或者只是感觉更快。那种迭代速度——我们在 Claude Code 上非常幸运，因为 Anthropic 的每个人都用 Claude Code，所以我们有大量的反馈。这个循环是：'我有一个想法，让我构建，让我内部发布，好的，让我从 Anthropic 员工那里获得反馈，好的，现在向公众发布并继续收集反馈'——这种快速迭代循环真的让我印象深刻。随着我们团队壮大以保持这种敏捷和速度，这绝对是首要考虑的事情。

I would say joining Claude Code, the speed — I remember marketplace days where I felt we moved really fast. Claude Code, I mean, it could be a time warp or maybe it just feels even faster. That speed of iteration — we're really fortunate on Claude Code because Anthropic, everybody uses Claude Code, so we have a really high amount of feedback. That loop of 'I have an idea, let me build, let me launch internally, okay let me get feedback from Anthropic employees, okay now let's launch to public and continue with the feedback' — that rapid iteration loop has really impressed me. It's definitely something that's top of mind as we grow our team to keep up that agility and speed.

在采访接近尾声时，我想问你一些职业反思。有没有某个时刻你收到的反馈真正改变了你的职业生涯？如果有，那是什么反馈？

Coming to the end of the interview, I want to ask you a few career reflections. Was there ever a time where you received feedback and it really changed your career? And if so, what was the feedback?

我想说我收到的最关键的反馈之一是关于如何接受反馈——关于接受反馈的反馈。我们是工程师，喜欢设置断点并调试。早年在 Meta，当有人给我反馈时，我会想：'哦，我肯定想变得更好。让我多问些问题，这样我就能调试情况、回放并找出改进方法。'有人给了我一个非常好的反馈：'嘿，当有人足够关心你，来给你建设性反馈时，这已经够不舒服了。确保第一次你只处于只读模式，只是学习和倾听。你可能有疑问，但留到另一天，因为这对那个人来说已经很不舒服了。你不想让任何人觉得他们必须为反馈辩护。所以只需注意倾听，那天晚上，即使你有疑问，也等到第二天——给自己时间消化反馈并反思。'这是最好的建议之一，因为它真正改变了我给予和接受反馈的方式。

I would say one of the most pivotal feedback I ever received was how to receive feedback — feedback on receiving feedback. We're engineers, we like to set breakpoints and debug. Earlier on at Meta, when someone would give feedback, I'd think, 'Oh, I definitely want to get better. Let me ask more questions so I can debug the situation, replay it, and figure out how to improve.' And someone gave me really good feedback: 'Hey, when someone cares enough to come to you for constructive feedback, it's already uncomfortable enough. Make sure that first session you're just in read-only mode, just to learn and listen. You may have questions, but save them for another day because it's already uncomfortable for that person. You don't want anyone to ever feel like they have to justify the feedback. So just pay attention, listen, and that night, even if you have questions, hold them until the next day — give yourself time to sit with the feedback and reflect.' That has been some of the best advice because it really changed my approach to how to give and receive feedback.

最后一个问题，如果你能回到刚进入这个行业的时候，给自己一些建议，你会说什么？

And then last question is if you could go back to when you just entered the industry and give yourself some advice, what would you say?

我会说享受这个过程。Michael Abrash 曾经说过'这些就是过去的好时光。'所以我会说，是的，享受这个过程，这些就是过去的好时光。因为当你回首时，一切都发生得太快。有时候你不会回头，真正享受你正在经历的当下。

I'm going to say enjoy the ride. Michael Abrash used to say 'these are the good old days.' So I would say yeah, enjoy the ride and these are the good old days. Because you look back and everything happens so fast. Sometimes you don't look back and really enjoy the moment as you're living it.

太棒了。非常感谢你的时间，Fiona。我真的很感激。

Awesome. Well, thank you so much for your time, Fiona. I really appreciate it.

谢谢你来。再次相聚真是太好了。

Thanks for coming by. It's awesome catching up again.

感谢收听本播客。我不卖任何东西，也没有赞助，但如果你想支持播客，可以通过在 YouTube 或 Spotify 上参与内容来支持。如果你想留下评论，那会非常有帮助。如果你有任何想邀请的嘉宾，请告诉我。我觉得寻找非常资深的个人贡献者，在 Google 上并没有一个现成的列表可以直接搜索。所以，如果你所在组织或公司有你真正钦佩的人，并且你想听他们的职业故事，请告诉我，我会联系他们。

Thanks for listening to the podcast. I don't sell anything or do sponsorships, but if you want to help out with the podcast, you can support by engaging with the content on YouTube or on Spotify. If you want to drop a review, that'll be super helpful. And if there's any guests that you want to bring on, please let me know. I feel like sourcing very senior ICs, there's no well-studied list out there on Google that I can just search this up. So, if there's someone in your org or at your company who you really look up to and you want to hear their career story, let me know and I'll reach out.