AI 的未来与你：自主性、工具与日益扩大的鸿沟

这就是为什么我觉得很多人害怕。我曾以为大学是通往职业的道路。

This is why I think a lot of people are scared. I thought universities like a path to career.

我认为‘创业精神’这个词很大程度上是‘能动性’的同义词。面对如此认知先进的技术，能动性是关键。要熟悉那项技术。

I think the word entrepreneurial is very much a synonym to agency. Agency is the key in the face of a technology that is so cognitively advanced. Get familiar with that technology.

李飞飞构建了让现代 AI 成为可能的数据。现在她筹集了 100 万美元来打造下一步，并在她的新 MasterClass 课程《AI 的未来与你的未来》中教授这一切。David Rogier 将 MasterClass 打造成了一家价值 27.5 亿美元的公司，向人们传授世界顶尖人士的经验。今天，他们都在目睹同样的变革，并且有很多话要说。

Fei-Fei Li built the data that made modern AI possible. Now she's raised $1 million to build what comes next and she's teaching all of this in her new MasterClass, AI's future and yours. David Rogier turned MasterClass into a $2.75 billion company teaching people from the world's best. Today they're both watching the same shift and they have a lot to say about it.

这个差距正在扩大和加剧。如果有人在用 AI，他们能完成比以往多得多的任务。

It's a gap that's widening and increasing. If somebody's using AI, they're able to get tremendously more done that they never have before.

我们再也不需要工作了。

We aren't going to have to work anymore.

全民基本收入。

Universal basic income.

是啊，我们躺着就能拿钱。

Yeah, we're just going to get paid to chill.

变革的时代也可能是失去的时代。

Time of change could be a time of loss.

那会是什么样子？人们应该准备什么？

What does it look like? What should people be preparing for?

失去旧习惯，失去稳定感。但这也是一个机遇的时刻。这是一个……的机会。

Loss of old habits, loss of sense of steadiness. But that's also a time of opportunity. It's an opportunity for

你现在经营着多家公司。你看到了什么？最大的变化是什么？

You are running companies these days, multiple. What are you seeing? What are the biggest shifts happening?

嗯，我的世界很大程度上是 AI，所以我觉得我确实体验到了技术推动的前沿。我无法告诉你这一刻有多令人兴奋。技术专家、企业家，包括产品人员、商业人士，都认识到这是一个真正的巨变——AI 现在如何被用来重新思考商业、重新思考应用。你知道，我在硅谷已经 17 年了。这种能量我从未见过。即使是 10 年前，我也没有感受到那种兴奋程度。

Uh my world is very much AI, so I think I get to experience really the cutting edge of where the technology is pushing. It's just I cannot tell you how exciting this moment is. The technologists, the entrepreneurs and including product people, business people are all recognizing this just really sea change of how AI can now be used to rethink business, to rethink applications. And you know, it just feels I've been in Silicon Valley for 17 years. The energy is just I've never seen this before. Even 10 years ago, I did not feel that level of excitement.

太棒了。我觉得每个人都在更努力地工作。David，你同意吗？你的公司里发生了什么？

That's amazing. And I feel like everyone's working more. David, would you agree with that? What's happening in your company?

这个差距正在日益扩大。如果有人在用 AI，他们能完成多得多的任务，并且感受到前所未有的能动性。如果他们仍然紧张或没有接受过培训，你会看到这个差距在扩大。我认为你谈到的最有趣的事情之一是，世界似乎分裂成两派：一派认为这一切是神一般的，将拯救世界；另一半人则认为这是魔鬼，将毁灭一切。

It's a gap that's widening increasingly. If somebody's using AI, they're able to get tremendously more done, and they feel a sense of agency that they never had before. If they're still nervous to or haven't been trained to, you are seeing that that gap increase. One of the most interesting things I think that you talk about is that it seems like the world is split between all this is god-like and going to have it save the world, and the other half of people are like this is the devil and going to destroy everything.

现在社会非常两极分化。

Very polarized society, right now.

我认为你谈到并展示的一件事是，这不是一种健康的方法，或者可能不是最好的设计方法。如果你真的试图找出它最好的方面，以及如何用它来真正帮助人们，我们也许能两全其美。你之前问过工具。

And I think one of the things that you talk about and have shown is that that is not a healthy approach or maybe it isn't the best design approach. And then if you actually try to figure out what are the best aspects of it and how do I use it to actually help people, we might be able to get the best of both worlds. You asked earlier about tools.

是的。

Yeah.

我想了想。如果你几个月前问我，我会列出 Claude、ChatGPT 等等工具。我现在发现，我使用的大部分应用都是我自己构建的。

And I think I was thinking about it. If you asked me like a couple months ago, I would have listed, you know, Claude and ChatGPT and all of the tools. I have now found that most of the apps I use, I built.

嗯。

Mhm.

我用 Claude Code 或 Codex 构建了它们。

And I built them with Claude Code or with Codex.

很好，非常酷。

Fine. Very cool.

首先，这对我来说太棒了，因为现在我的 CEO 工具集都是我构建的应用。

And I think this, first of all, that's like amazing to me because now my CEO stack is all apps that I built.

它叫 Davidfy，对吗？我读到过你构建了自己的定制……

Is it called Davidfy, right? I read something like you built your own custom

D-A-Davidfy。

D-A-Davidfy.

Davidfy，是的。

Davidfy, yeah.

我把它给了我的团队，比如如果你想用我的语气写东西，这里有一堆我写的邮件和我说过的话。但甚至我的生产力应用、我的待办事项列表应用都是我构建的，而且我设定如果它在列表上超过一天半，就不能再留在列表上。这迫使我要么决定现在做，要么放弃因为它实际上不重要，要么把它交给团队中的某个人。这让你能够按照你认为应该的方式创建所有这些应用。所以回到我们的能动性观点，你能够创建工作流和工具，任何你现在想要的东西。所以现在关键是做这件事的动机是什么，需要什么技能，但制作一个应用的成本从几个月降到了一个周末。

And I gave it to my team, which is like if you're trying to write something in my own voice, here are a bunch of emails that I wrote and things I said to you to do it. But even my productivity apps, my to-do list app I built, and I have it that if it's on the list for over a day and a half, it can't stay on the list. So it forces me to either decide that I'm going to do it now, I'm going to dump it because it's actually not an important thing, or I'm going to pass it off to a person on my team. And this just allows you to create all these apps for the way that you think it should work. So, back to our agency point, you're able to create the workflows and tools, anything that you now want. So now it's about what's the motivation to do it, what's the skills to go do it, but the cost of making an app dropped from, you know, months to like a weekend.

是的，这是一个很好的观点。如果一个员工来找你说‘我真的想开始使用 AI’，你会告诉他们什么？他们从哪里开始？任务是什么？因为我听说有些企业家让员工直接‘氛围编码’他们的仪表盘。你有什么推荐的吗？

Yeah. Yeah, that's a very good point. Oh, if an employee comes to you and says, 'I really want to start using AI.' What would you tell them? Like, where do they start? What is the task? Because I've heard some entrepreneurs ask their employees to just vibe code their dashboard, for example. Do you have like a go-to thing?

我不喜欢‘氛围编码’一个仪表盘，因为当有人氛围编码一个仪表盘时，它只停留在仪表盘的前端。它从未与实际输入关联。所以它可能好用一个小时，但之后就会停止工作，因为他们大多数时候没有把它关联回所有东西。当他们想学 AI 时，我发现如果他们问那个问题，他们是在犹豫是否要自己尝试。

I don't like vibe coding a dashboard because when somebody vibe codes a dashboard, it's only in the front end of the dashboard. It's never tied back to the actual inputs. So it's great for like an hour, but then it stops working because they haven't tied it back to everything most of the time. When they want to learn AI, I have found if they're asking that question, they are hesitant to try it on their own.

嗯。

Mhm.

有什么东西在阻碍他们。所以，在这些情况下，我会做的是——有时我担心这是在浪费我的时间，但我已经学会这不是。我会和他们坐下来，或者两三个人一组，我会向他们展示一个基本任务，比如深度研究。

There's something that's holding them back. And so, what I do in those cases is like, and sometimes I worry this is like a waste of my time, but I've learned it's not. I will sit down with them or in groups of two or three, and I will show them a basic task, like deep research.

嗯。

Mhm.

我会一步一步地引导他们。在某种程度上，我觉得这是在浪费我的时间，因为我想，你可以看一个 YouTube 视频，比我更有效。但我发现，我和他们一起做这件事会解锁一些东西，然后他们就能自己飞速进步。所以我不知道是不是有人带着走，或者他们觉得被迫做因为我是 CEO，我让他们做，但带他们走一遍之后，他们就被解锁了，可以去做更多事情。

And I'll walk them through it step by step. And in some ways I feel like that's a waste of my time because I'm like, you could watch a YouTube video on this that's way more effective than I am. But I found there's something about me doing it with them that then unlocks something, and they then go soar on their own. So I don't know if it's somebody walking or they feel forced to do it because I'm the CEO and I'm making them do it, but then the act of walking them through it, then they are unlocked to go do it and they could do lots more things.

是的，David，我感谢你带来了现实的复杂性。这是我观察到的，坦白说我很担忧，因为我认为关于 AI 的公共讨论非常两极分化。我们必须看到好的一面，也必须看到坏的一面，但现在的公共讨论不是这样的。要么是完全的乌托邦，它将拯救世界，我们再也不需要工作了。普遍来说，

Yeah, I thank you David for bringing the complexity of reality. That is something that I observe and frankly am concerned because I think the public discourse of AI is so polarized. We have to look at the upside, we have to look at the downside, but the public discourse right now is not like that. It's either total utopia, it's going to save the world and we don't have to work anymore. Universally speaking

是啊，我们躺着就能拿钱。

Yeah, we're going to get paid to chill.

或者，你知道，关于 AI 这东西，它太糟糕了。它将取代所有工作。它将剥夺所有人类能动性。

Or you know, this thing about AI, it's so bad. It's going to just displace all jobs. It's going to take away all human agency.

这两种极端都非常危险。我通常认为它是一种技术，也就是说它是一种工具。一种非常强大的工具。但它是人类可以用来让事情变得更好的工具。但我们也必须非常非常警惕如何使用这个工具。我们教孩子如何使用工具，从火到刀再到互联网。现在我们必须作为一个物种、一个社会来学习这一点。而最重要的讨论缺失了，那就是细致入微的中间立场。这个工具是什么，我们如何利用它做好事，如何避免陷阱，以及我们如何作为文明与这个文明工具一起前进？

And these two extremes are very dangerous. I generally believe it's a technology, that means it's a tool. It's a very powerful tool. But it's a tool that humans can wield to help make things better. But we also have to be very, very vigilant about how to use the tool. We teach kids how to use tools from fire to knives to the internet. Now we have to learn that as a species, as a society. And the most important discourse is missing, and that's the discourse of the nuanced middle. What this tool is, how can we use it for good, how should we avoid the pitfalls, and how do we go forward as a civilization with this civilization tool?

你现在构建的 AI 智能体，它们彼此之间并不理解。你的销售智能体完成了一笔交易并了解了一些关于客户的信息。你的支持智能体一小时后接手同一个客户，却从零开始。这些知识每次都会消失。Cisco 旗下的 Outshift 今年发布了一份白皮书，名为《扩展超级智能》。他们的论点是，当前 AI 最大的瓶颈不是更大的模型或更智能的智能体，而是让它们更好地协同工作。他们称这种解决方案为认知互联网。所有智能体同时共享意图、共享上下文、共享推理。在 outshift.com 上有一个现场演示。五个用例，你可以实时观看智能体共同推理。如果你正在用智能体构建任何东西，请阅读这份白皮书并尝试演示，因为他们现在就在构建这个未来。链接在描述中。

The AI agents you're building right now, they don't understand each other. Your sales agent closes a deal and learns something about the customer. Your support agent picks up the same customer an hour later and starts with zero context. That knowledge just vanishes every single time. Outshift by Cisco published a white paper this year called scaling out super intelligence. Their argument, the biggest bottleneck in AI right now isn't bigger models or smarter agents, it's making them work together better. They're calling the solution the internet of cognition. Shared intent, shared context, shared reasoning across all your agents at once. There is a live demo at outshift.com. Five use cases, you can watch the agents reason together in real time. If you're building anything with agents, read the paper and try the demo because they are working on this future right now. Links are in the description.

然后它是一种革命性的工具。我觉得它是第一个这样的工具——工业革命自动化了我们的体力劳动，对吧？现在我们正在自动化我们的智能，这就是为什么我认为很多人害怕，因为他们想，哦，我以为大学没有保证，但它是一条职业道路。现在，如果智能的成本降到零，我不知道会发生什么。你怎么看？

And then it's a revolutionary tool. I feel like it's the first tool that is so industrial revolution automated our physical labor, right? Here we're kind of automating our intelligence, and this is why I think a lot of people are scared because they're like, oh, I thought university no guarantees, but it's like a path to career. Now, if the cost of intelligence goes to zero, I don't know, like what's going to happen. What do you think?

我从你那里学到的一件事是，现在我们谈论 AI 时，它是基于语言的。用你的话说，这就像是有损的。你无法通过语言学会开车。你无法通过语言学会投篮。所以我认为我们仍处于 AI 的 V1 版本，我认为这种恐惧有点被夸大了，因为 AI 没有自己的一套价值观。那是我们的价值观。所以我认为这意味着我们有机会设计和塑造它。你想分享一下你和医生们做的那件事吗，他们洗手那个？

One thing I learned from you was that right now when we talk about AI, it is language-based. That, to use your phrase, is like lossy. You aren't going to learn how to drive a car with words. You aren't going to learn how to shoot a basketball with words. And so I think we're still in a V1 of AI, and I think this fear is a little overhyped because AI doesn't have a set of its own values. It's our values. And so I think that means an opportunity for us to design and shape it. Do you want to share that thing you did with the doctors and they're washing their hands?

呃，是的，我同意 David。首先，工业革命并没有自动化劳动。它使劳动更高效。它扩大了劳动规模。它确实改变了劳动力市场，但并没有自动化劳动。而且，我们不能暗示劳动是不智能的。这是一个非常非常错误的假设。你知道，体力劳动、认知劳动、情感劳动。人类活动与人类智能深深交织在一起，而人类智能在自然界中仍然是一个未解之谜。我们不知道人类智能的深度和细微差别。所以，声称——我知道你没有声称，但任何声称智能成本会降到零的人都是不负责任的，因为人类智能非常深刻，正如 David 所说，除了更熟悉的语言智能，我们还有感知智能、空间智能、物理智能、情感智能。我们还没有掌握创造力，不知道它从何而来。每个人的创造力不仅来自大脑的不同部分，还来自他们的整体生活。所以，我认为我们需要非常小心这些还原论的说法。我确实同意语言智能，LLMs 及其衍生品非常强大。你知道，它们正在帮助商业智能。它们正在帮助软件工程。它们正在帮助演绎逻辑推理甚至更深层次的任务。我们还没有看到语言和软件智能的巨大用途。所有这些都很重要，但它是细微的。它是复杂的。其中很多可以与人类智能进行强有力的协作，但我不会使用像自动化人类智能或智能成本降到零这样的词。我非常担心这种言论。

Uh yeah, so I agree with David. First of all, industrial revolution did not automate labor. It made labor more efficient. It scaled up labor. It did shift the labor market, but it did not automate labor. And also, we cannot imply labor is not intelligent. That is really, really a wrong premise. You know, physical labor, cognitive labor, emotional labor. Human activity is deeply intertwined with human intelligence, which is still very much an unsolved mystery in nature. We don't know the depth and nuance of human intelligence. So, claiming—I know you're not claiming, but anyone out there claiming that the cost of intelligence goes to zero is just an irresponsible claim because human intelligence is so deep, as David said, in addition to the more familiar language intelligence, we also have perceptual intelligence, spatial intelligence, physical intelligence, emotional intelligence. We don't have a grasp on creativity, where that comes from. Everybody's creativity comes from different parts of their not only their brain, but their holistic life. So, I think we need to be very careful of these reductive claims. I do agree that language intelligence, the LLMs, the derivatives of LLMs are incredibly powerful. You know, they're helping business intelligence. They're helping software engineering. They're helping deductive logical reasoning and even deeper tasks. We're not seeing a gigantic use of language and software intelligence. All this is important, but it is nuanced. It is complex. A lot of it can be powerfully collaborative with human intelligence, but I would not use words like automating human intelligence or intelligence goes to zero. I am very concerned about that kind of rhetoric.

正是这种言论导致人们如此反 AI。因为他们看到的是大规模裁员的头条新闻。他们觉得，“我们不再需要你了。”诸如此类。这就是造成这种负面情绪的原因。

The exact rhetoric that's causing people to be so anti-AI. Because what they see, they see headlines of mass layoffs. They're like, "We don't need you anymore." That type of stuff. And this is what's causing this negativity.

但在这些情况下，答案不是说我要避免使用 AI 或者我不打算用它。我认为答案是你抓住这个工具，然后弄清楚如何更好地设计它，或者如何改进这个工具，或者你在医院的一些工作。如果你接受一份工作，一份工作实际上是一整套任务。我认为你的一个论点是，你在工作中做的有些任务你可能不喜欢。我记得你的例子是护士必须记录所有笔记。

But the answer isn't in those cases to say I'm going to avoid using AI or that I'm not going to use it. I think the answer is you grab the tool and then you figure out how I'm going to design it better or how I'm going to improve the tool or some of your work in hospitals. If you take a job, a job is actually a whole set of tasks. And I think one of your arguments is there's some tasks that you do in your job that you probably don't like. Your example I remember was a nurse has to chart all their notes.

医生也是。

Doctors too.

还有医生。我从未见过哪个护士说，“你知道，工作中我最喜欢的部分就是记录。”那不是他们进入这个职业领域的原因。所以，我认为回避是错误的，但我也同意你的看法。我认为，如果我们看看任何技术变革，最终总是净增更多工作岗位。问题只是谁得到了这些工作？实际上是谁得到了这些工作？但得不到这些工作的人是不适应它的人。

And doctors. I have never met a nurse that's like, "You know the job, the part of my job I love the most is charting." And like, that is not why they got into the professional field. So, I think the avoidance is the wrong way, but I also think I agree with you. I think it will, if we look at any technological shift, it's always ended up in net more jobs. The issue is just who gets those jobs? Who is it that actually gets those jobs? But the people who don't get those jobs are the people who do not adapt to it.

是的。

Yeah.

对吧？如果你不适应，结果会很糟糕。所以，回顾过去，随着计算机和电子表格的出现，如果你不适应，你就会失业，终身收入下降超过五分之一，第一年的死亡率翻倍。它实际上会损害你的健康。

Right? And if you don't adapt, the outcomes are very bad. So, if you look at the past with the advent of the computer, of the spreadsheet, what happens if you don't adapt is you lose your job, your lifetime income drops by over a fifth, and your mortality rate in the first year doubles. Like, it actually hurts your health.

这数据太疯狂了。

That's crazy stats.

是的。所以，答案不是躲进洞里，而是推动自己去探索和改进工具。

It's. And so, the answer isn't to go into a hole, it's to push yourself to explore and improve the tools.

是的，我完全同意 David。我认为我们谈到的一些词值得强调。你用了“能动性”这个词，我们谈论协作和赋能。我认为这是任何技术的核心意义，包括像 AI 这样所谓的神级技术，它应该以人为本。而以人为本是什么意思？只是一个短语。对我来说，以人为本最简单但最深刻的含义就是真正地赋能人类，包括个人、社区和社会。

Yeah, I totally agree with David. I think some of the words we talked about deserve to be highlighted. You used the word agency, we talk about collaboration and empowerment. I think that's the core meaning of any technology, including a so-called god-like technology like AI, is it should be human-centered. And what is the meaning of human-centered? Just a phrase. To me, the simplest but the most profound meaning of human-centeredness is really empowerment to humanity, to individuals, communities, and society.

这就是这项技术的意义所在，这也引出了大卫提到的观点：这是一个变革的时代。变革的时代可能也是失去的时代。失去旧习惯。失去过去几十年我们熟悉的舒适感。失去稳定感。但这也是一个充满机遇的时代。这是为即将到来的事物提供的机会。这是让我们能够做得更好的机会。作为个人，如何跨越从困惑和失去到机遇的边界？这真的是我们每个人的责任：学习、拥抱、提升技能，在智力上对这次机遇保持开放。这触及了每个人人生旅程的核心，无论你是 K-12 的学生还是已经工作的专业人士，我们都必须共同拥抱这一点。

And that is the meaning of this technology, which brings up this point that David said is that it's a time of change. Time of change could be a time of loss. Loss of old habits. Loss of comfort that we were familiar with for the past decades. Loss of sense of steadiness. But that's also a time of opportunity. It's an opportunity for what's coming next. It's an opportunity for what we can make better. And how do you cross that boundary between the time of confusion and loss to time of opportunity as an individual? It is really a responsibility of each one of us to learn, embrace, upskill, be intellectually open about this opportunity. And that goes to the core of every human journey, whether you are a K-12 student or you're a ready a professional, we have to embrace this together.

是的，而且你提到的变化，它发生得如此之快，比以往任何时候都快。你能告诉我，就拿今天的 AI 来说，它已经能完成哪些类型的任务？哪些仍然非常人类化？一年内会发生什么？它到底有多快？

Yeah, and but also to your point of change, it's happening so fast, faster than ever. Can you tell me like if we take AI today, what type of tasks it can do already? What is still very human? And what's going to happen in a year? So how fast is it moving?

我认为在教育领域，它正在产生巨大影响。我想分享最大的障碍。我们从过去 60 年知道，一个人学习的最佳方式是一对一教学。那么问题来了，为什么我们要坐在 20 人、300 人的教室里？纯粹是成本问题。为世界上每个人提供家教太贵了，尽管那会很棒。我会报名参加。但有了 AI，从过去几年的工作来看，我们现在知道 AI 可以提供几乎同样好的个性化教学。这比在教室里学习或只读书要好得多。那么问题来了，现在你能够提供同样的教育，那种你每年花 1.2 万美元在小学教室里接受的教育，或者每年 8 万美元的本科教育，现在你只需要大约 100 美元就能提供同样的教育。所以必须问：我们什么时候才能在自己的教育中看到这种变化？我认为最大的障碍不是技术，而是害怕改变的机构。但我认为会发生的是，我们知道如果用 AI 学习，你可以在减少 60%的时间内学到同样的东西。所以如果一所学校说‘我要禁止 AI，禁止我的孩子使用 AI’，而另一所学校允许他们以结构化的方式使用 AI，那么使用 AI 的孩子将远远领先于不使用的孩子。当然这不能取代一切。你仍然需要面对面互动、所有社会联系，但你会开始看到孩子们的分化：对 AI 开放的那一组学习速度远快于其他人，我认为这很糟糕。所以我认为这不是技术问题，但会发生的是，那些不适应的学校，10 年后它们将不复存在，因为它们会远远落后。

I mean, I think in education, it's having a tremendous impact. The biggest obstacle I'll share. So we know from the last 60 years that the best way for somebody to learn is one-on-one instruction. So the question has to be asked, why do we sit in classrooms of 20 people, of 300 people? It's simply cost. It is too expensive to provide a tutor to every person in the world. Even though that would be amazing. I would sign up for that. And so with AI though, from the work that's been done in the last couple years, we now know that AI can provide that personal level of instruction that is almost as good as that. It is so much better than learning in a classroom than reading just a book on it. So then the question and now you're able to provide that same education, the one where you sat in an elementary school classroom for $12,000 a year. You're now or a school for $80,000 a year once you're undergrad, you're able to provide that same education for about $100. So the question has to be asked, when are we going to see that change in our own education? I think the biggest obstacle is not the tech. The biggest obstacle is the institutions that are afraid of that change. But I think what's going to happen, we know that if you use AI to learn, you're able to learn the same things in 60% less time. So if school says, I'm going to ban AI, I'm going to ban my kids from using AI, and another school allows them to use AI in a structured way, those kids who use AI are going to be far ahead of the kids that don't. Now that's not a replacement for everything. You still want the in-person interaction, all those social bonds, but I think you're going to start to see a divergence in kids where one group that's open to AI is learning at a much faster rate than everyone else, and I think that's bad. And so I think it's not a tech issue, but I think what's going to happen is those schools that do not adapt, in 10 years, they're going to be they aren't going to exist because they're going to be so far behind.

而且他们的世界也会因为 AI 而快速变化，就像大卫说的，他们应该改变一部分。我也坚信每所学校、每个教室都应该拥抱 AI。每个学生都应该拥抱 AI。但我也认为我们有集体责任将他们，特别是教师和教育管理者，纳入 AI 的讨论中，并向他们展示一条可行的道路，既能保持教育的目标。教育的目标不是工具。教育的目标不是闭卷或开卷考试。教育的目标不是标准化考试分数。教育的目标是培养人，让每个个体都能为社区和社会做出有意义的贡献，并过上有意义的生活。AI 不应该夺走这些基础，而应该帮助更好地、更有效地实现这个目标。这种两极分化、极度简化的关于 AI 是否用于作弊、闭卷、禁止 AI 的二元讨论，根本不是我们应该关注的。我们应该关注如何赋能教师、如何赋能学生、如何重构课堂、如何重新思考考试、如何重新思考标准化测试、如何重新思考大学录取、如何重新思考资源分配。有一项技术正在降低成本和门槛。那么我们如何为我们的内城、农村地区、全球南方提供资源？这些才是 AI 与教育中真正重要、更重要的议题。我们错过了这些对话。

And also their world will be changing so fast because of AI, like what David said, a part of it they should be changing. I also adamantly believe every school, every classroom should embrace AI. Every student should be embracing AI. But I also believe that we have a collective responsibility to include them, especially the teachers and educational administrators in this discourse of AI and show them what is a viable path that maintains the goal of education. The goal of education is not a tool. The goal of education is not close book or open book exams. The goal of education is not standardized test scores. The goal of education is building humans so that every individual is a meaningful contributor to their community and society and leads a meaningful life. And this AI should not be taking any of these fundamentals away, but AI should help to achieve this goal much better, much more effectively. And this polarized extremely simplified binary conversation about AI's for cheating or not, close book, take away AI it is just not where we should be. We should be looking at how we empower teachers, how we empower students, how we restructure our classrooms, how we rethink about examinations, how we rethink about standardized test, how we rethink about college admissions, how we rethink about resource distribution. There is a technology that's lowering cost and barriers. So how we can resource our inner cities, our rural areas, globally, global south. These are really important, more important topics of AI and education. That we're missing that conversation.

完全同意。

Absolutely.

你知道什么会帮助这个对话吗？因为当我考虑我孩子的教育时，我想象他们将要进入的工作场所。我成长的时候，工作场所是大公司，你做这个，为了达到那里，你需要学这个、那个。你能描绘一下 10 年后工作场所或公司的图景吗？它会是什么样子？人们应该为什么做准备？

You know what I think will help this conversation because when I'm thinking about my kids' education, I want to imagine a workplace where they're going to be. So, when I was growing up, the workplace is big company, you're doing this, and so in order to get there, you need to study this, this, and that. Can you paint me a picture of a workplace or a company in 10 years? What does it look like? What should people be preparing for?

自主性。我认为 AI 将赋予人们更多自主性。所以，未来的很多工作，我认为将依赖于那些知道如何有效使用这些工具的人。让我给你一个具体例子。过去 20 年硅谷非常令人垂涎的工作之一是产品经理。关于产品管理工作性质的变化有很多讨论。10 年前，标准的产品经理工作更像是用户、市场和工程师之间的纽带。他们更像指挥家。他们不需要编码。通常他们不是软件工程师。所以，如果他们想要一个原型，他们会去找设计师和软件工程师。他们拿到原型，然后发给用户，听取用户意见，综合反馈。这个产品管理生命周期在公司里通常需要几个月。今天，如果你看看产品经理的工作，实际上很多公司正在尝试不同的东西，但有一些根本性的变化。很多产品经理现在自己编码。他们不需要等待团队制作原型。他们可以用 AI 帮助设计非常简单的东西并编写代码。所以这部分缩短了生命周期。这并不意味着我们应该摆脱设计师或软件工程师，只是节省了时间，这样软件工程师和设计师可以做更复杂的工作。另外，用户方面也在变化。

Agency. I think AI will give people more agency. So, a lot of the future of work, I think will rely on people who know how to use these tools in a very effective way. So, let me give you a concrete example. One of the very coveted jobs in Silicon Valley in the past 20 years is product manager. There's a lot of conversations about the shifting nature of product management job. It used to be 10 years ago fairly standard: a product manager's job is more the thread between users, markets, and engineers. They're more like conductors. They don't have to code. Fairly often they were not software engineers. So, if they want a prototype, they go to a designer, they go to a software engineer. They get a prototype, and then they send it to users, and they listen to the users, and synthesize the feedback. And that life cycle of product management might take typically months in a company. Today, if you look at the job of product manager, actually a lot of companies are experimenting with different things, but there are some fundamental changes. A lot of product managers now code themselves. They don't have to wait to prototype from a team of people. They can use AI to help design something very simple and write code. So, that part shortens the life cycle. Doesn't mean we should get rid of designers or software engineers, but it just saves time so that software engineers and designers can do much more sophisticated work. Also, user side, things are shifting.

AI 实际上可以模拟用户行为，而且有更高效的方式触达用户、与用户形成闭环。所以我在看这些年轻的产品经理，当我招聘时，我找的是那些能驾驭变化浪潮的人，而不是那些还在谈论五年前教科书式工作流程的人。所以我认为公司的未来有很多想象空间，取决于公司是医疗、教育还是其他行业，但我认为我们的劳动力将因 AI 等强大工具而获得更多赋能，个人能动性、创造力以及一个人能做什么和不能做什么的边界都会变得更加模糊和降低。所以在我看来，这将从根本上改变美国企业的结构，今天每个学生都应该试着想象自己在这个新结构中想成为什么样的人。

AI can actually simulate user behaviors and there are much more efficient ways to reach to the users, to close the loop with users. So, I'm looking at these young product managers and when I look to hire them, I look for those who are riding the wave of changes. I don't look for those product managers who are still talking about the textbook workflow of even 5 years ago. So, what I think the future of companies, there's a lot to imagine and depending on the company from healthcare to education to whatever industry, but I think our workforce will be much more empowered or can be much more empowered by powerful tools like AI, so that personal agency, creativity, and also the boundaries of what a person can do and cannot do are just a lot more blurred and lowered. So to me that's going to just fundamentally shift the structure of corporate America and every student today should try to imagine who they want to be in that new structure.

大多数人把 Claude 当搜索引擎用。他们输入问题，得到答案，大多数时候并不满意，然后关掉标签页。我几个月来也这样，看到别人说 AI 改变了他们的生活，我就想，然后我花了一个下午正确设置它，上传了一些关于我如何思考和工作方式的文件，结果完全改变了。我把整个过程一步步写了下来。订阅我的 newsletter futureproof 就能得到，免费。链接在描述里。

Most people use Claude like a search engine. They type in a question, they get an answer. Most times they're not really satisfied with it and they close the tab. I did the same thing for months and I was looking at people who were saying AI is changing their life and I'm like then I spend one afternoon setting it up properly, uploaded a few files about how I think and how I work and it completely changed. I wrote the whole process up step-by-step. You get it when you subscribe to my newsletter futureproof. It's free. The link is in the description.

感觉你刚才描述的是工作空间里的创业者，要么你是创业者，要么你是组织内的创业者，这意味着你处理很多事情，对很多事情负责。

It feels like you were just describing entrepreneurs within workspace or you're like either you're an entrepreneur or you're an entrepreneur within organization which means you're handling multiple things and you're responsible for multiple things.

我的假设是，你会看到杠铃效应，这正是我们在 Masterclass 看到的：有一群人正在成为专家。以前在学校里，我被教导要选一个领域深入下去，这样才能建立长期职业生涯。我认为这正在被侵蚀，除非你是顶尖的那 1%，真正最优秀的。我的意思是，如果我是个文案，水平一般，现在任何用大语言模型的人都能做得不错。但如果你是世界上最优秀的，或者在前 1%，我无法击败你。所以我们看到擅长自己领域的专家在崛起，我认为这延伸到很多手艺。另一个角色是高度能动性的通才，能做好很多不同的事情，在判断和能动性方面有很好的技能。当你看到他们互动时，很酷，因为他们与顶尖 1%的专家互动，然后感叹‘哇，我做不到’。所以我猜测是专家和能做好很多事情的人的分化。

I mean my hypothesis on this, you will get a barbell effect and this is what we are seeing at Masterclass where you have one group that are becoming the specialists. And it used to be like I remember in school like I was told to pick one area and just go deep in that and that's how I build a long-term career. I think that's eroding except if you're in the top one if you're like the actual best. What I mean by this is if I'm a copywriter if I'm an okay one anybody that now uses an LLM can do a decent job of that. But if you're the best in the world at it or if you're in the top 1% I can't beat you at it. And so we're seeing A the rise of people that are specialists that are very good at their thing. And I think that extends to tons of crafts. And then the other role we're seeing is this high agency generalist who's able to do lots of different things well and has good has really good skills on the judgement side, on the agency side. And those people when you see them interact it's really neat because they then interact with somebody who's in the top 1% at their craft and whoa, I couldn't do that, right? And I so my guess is that it's a bifurcation of those specialists and the people that can do lots of things well.

这很有趣。我同意你的看法。我认为无论你是专家型还是通才型，你都有能动性。

That's interesting. And I agree with you. I think both whether you're on the specialist side or generalist side, you both have agency.

是的，就是这样。我觉得说得很好。

Yes, that's that. I think it's very well put.

而且你们都应该能够以独特创造性和深刻的方式使用工具，对吧？我已经看到了。例如，设计师，他们带来了很多人类创造力，但我看到他们有些人使用各种 AI 工具的方式是我个人无法想象的。所以我知道那就是他们的技艺所在。还有‘创业精神’这个词，在硅谷几乎意味着‘我要在特拉华州注册一家初创公司’，那就是创业者的标签。我不同意。我认为‘创业精神’这个词很大程度上是‘能动性’的同义词。

And you should both be able to use tools in ways that's uniquely creative and deep, right? I'm already seeing this, right? For example, designers, you know, they bring so much human creativity, but I see some of them use all kinds of AI tools in ways I cannot personally imagine. So I know that's where their craftsmanship comes. And also the word entrepreneurial in Silicon Valley that's almost like I'm going to do a Delaware incorporated startup and that's the label entrepreneur. And I disagree. I think the word entrepreneurial is very much a synonym to agency.

是的。

Yeah.

你知道，这没关系。你可以是医生，专科医生。你可以是 K-12 教师。但能动性是关键，面对如此认知先进的技术，要勇敢。拥有你的人类能动性，驾驭那项技术。使用那项技术，熟悉那项技术。不要害怕，不要回避，因为那是历史车轮转向未来的方向。我认为每个人，不一定是硅谷创始人，每个人都可以为自己的手艺或任何想做的事发挥创业精神。

You know, it doesn't matter. You can be a doctor, specialty doctor. You can be a K-12 teacher. But agency is the key and in the face of a technology that is so cognitively advanced, have be brave. Have your human agency and command that technology. Use that technology, get familiar with that technology. Don't be afraid, don't shy away from it because that's where the wheels of history is turning towards the future. And I think everybody, it doesn't have to be a Silicon Valley founder, everybody can be entrepreneurial for their craftsmanship or whatever they want to do.

你提到了很多工具，比如使用工具。你能举一些对你的工作产生变革性影响的工具的例子吗？

You mentioned so many tools like use tools use just. Can you give me example of some of the tools that have been transformational to your job?

显然，从 ChatGPT 到 Gemini 到 Claude，各种工具我都以不同方式使用。它们有很多功能，从帮助我研究一些深奥的话题到进行对话。这里有个有趣的例子。我负责家里的洗衣。所以每个周末我要洗很多很多衣服。以前那是我的有声书时间，但有时光听有声书会无聊。就在几个月前，我意识到我可以在叠衣服时和 AI 进行深度话题的对话。这变得非常有趣。不知怎的，这甚至让我更有动力去叠衣服，因为我可以有和 AI 独处的时间，学习任何我想学的东西。当然，软件工程已经完全改变了。还有，在艺术和设计方面，我们实验室正在创建模型来帮助我们的创作者想象 3D 世界等等。所以我们也看到了创意世界的变化。同样，这也是一个非常有争议的领域，因为一些公司把 AI 创意工具定位为替代品，我深深反对这种定位。我认为人类创造力，即使只是在视觉方面，也是如此广阔，但即使只是在视觉设计方面，它与我们的情商、我们带来的故事、每个创作者带来的价值观深深交织在一起。我认为 AI 是帮助他们表达创造力的强大工具，而不是取代它。

Obviously, all kinds of from ChatGPT to Gemini to Claude, I use it in many different ways. They have so many features from helping me to study some deep topics or to have a conversation. Here's a fun example. I'm in charge of laundry in my household. So every weekend I have to do loads and loads of laundry. And it used to be my audiobook time, but sometimes I get bored just listening to audiobook and just about a few months ago I realized I can have a conversation of a deep topic with AI as I was just folding laundry. And that has been so much fun. Somehow it's more even more motivating for me to go fold laundry because I can have me time with AI to learn anything I want. And of course software engineering has been completely transformed. And also, you know, on the art and design side, I mean, we're labs, we are creating models to help our creators and to imagine 3D worlds and all that. So we also see change in the creative world. Once again, that's also a very contentious area because some companies have positioned AI's creative tools as if it's a replacement and I just deeply deeply protest that positioning. I think that human creativity, even just on the visual side, human creativity is so vast, but even just on the visual design side is profoundly intertwined with our emotional intelligence, with the story we bring, with the values we bring each creators bring. I just think AI is such a powerful tool to help them express their creativity instead of to replace it.

完全同意。

Totally.

你觉得 AI 是不是永远无法变得非常聪明，直到它弄明白空间智能？

Do you feel AI can never be very smart until it figures out spatial intelligence?

是的，这就是我现在在 World Labs 做的工作。那么，什么是空间智能？空间智能是一个术语，涵盖了人类在像这样的 3D 环境中展示的多种能力。如果我们考虑运动，我们称之为 4D 环境。我们能理解正在发生的事情。我看到人，看到设备，看到这个美丽的家。这是空间智能的理解部分。我们能推理。

Yes, so this is the work I'm doing now in world labs. So, what is spatial intelligence? Spatial intelligence is a term that encompasses multiple abilities today that humans display in a environment like this one, 3D environment. If we look at movement, we call it 4D environment. We can understand what's going on. I see people, I see equipments, I see this beautiful home. This is the understanding part of spatial intelligence. We can reason.

如果我想去冰箱拿一瓶水，我必须对空间进行推理，思考如何上楼梯，识别冰箱，规划我的动作。这就是推理，是空间智能的另一个部分。第三个部分是生成。在我的脑海中，即使我没有看到你的客厅，我实际上也能想象出它的样子。如果我是一个更好的艺术家，我可以生成很多视觉上的 2D、3D 或 4D 作品。人类可以生成大量的空间。第四部分，也是最后但同样重要的，是交互性。它关乎我如何专注于与空间的互动，比如叠衣服——那是我现在最喜欢的周末活动。这非常具有空间性。你如何折叠每一件衣物，如何把它们挂进衣柜，都是高度互动的。所以空间智能包含这四个方面：理解、推理、生成和交互。我们正在这方面努力，并且取得了巨大进展。我说的是整个领域的集体进步。今天，如果你使用 Nano Banana 或 GPT 图像工具，它可以生成大量 2D 图像，可以解释你花园里的一朵不知名的花是什么。这种理解已经相当先进了。它可以帮助你推理。现在我们可以在 AI 工具中绘制图形。在生成方面，目前更成熟的产品集中在 2D 领域。而我们 World Labs 正在做的是 3D 方面。3D 对于机器人交互、对于真正可控的创造力（如设计、建筑、游戏开发、视觉特效）至关重要。这就是我们正在攻克的部分。

If I want to go grab a bottle of water in the fridge, I have to reason about the space, reason about going up the staircase, recognize the fridge, reason about my movement. So that's reasoning. That's another part of spatial intelligence. A third part is generation. In my mind's eye, even though I'm not seeing your living room, I actually have a view of what it looks like. If I were a better artist, I could generate a lot of visual 2D, 3D, or 4D artifacts. Humans can generate a lot of space. The fourth and last but not least part is interactivity. It's how I focus on interacting with the space, like laundry folding, my favorite weekend activity. That's deeply spatial. How you fold each piece of garment and hang them in the closet is highly interactive. So spatial intelligence is these four things: understanding, reasoning, generation, and interaction. We are working on that. We have made tremendous progress. I'm saying collective we. Today, if you use Nano Banana or GPT image, that tool can generate a lot of 2D imagery. It can explain what an unknown flower is in your garden. That understanding is quite advanced. It can help you reason. Now we can draw figures in AI tools. The generation part, the more mature products are on the 2D side. What we at World Labs are doing is on the 3D side. 3D is fundamental for robotic interaction, for truly controllable creativity such as design, architecture, game development, VFX. So that's the piece we are working on.

它和 LLM 是分开的吗？我的意思是，LLM 有它们的极限，然后世界模型介入？

Is it separate from LLMs? Do LLMs have their limit and then world models step in?

既是也不是。我认为它们是互补的。你不能脱离人类来思考，对吧？就像你刚才说的把篮球投进篮筐。首先，那是一个非常快速的动作，人们不会坐在那里思考并在脑子里说话。但我确实认为，即使那个动作本身也是一个高度复杂的智能时刻，其中语言推理会介入，因为作为一名运动员，你可能敏锐地意识到得分或失分对比赛意味着什么。其中一部分可能以语言的方式在进行。但观察球场、观察其他球员、瞄准篮筐，这完全是空间性的。而调整身体、知道如何做出那个动作，则完全是物理性的。所以我们生活中做的很多事情实际上是语言智能、空间智能和物理智能的混合。对我来说，它们非常互补，协同工作。我深信空间智能是其中巨大的一部分。进化花了超过 5 亿年才使空间智能成熟，而语言智能所用的时间则短得多。所以这是动物和人类一种非常深刻、古老、基础的智能能力。

Yes and no. I think they're complementary. You can't think about humans, right? Just as you were saying about putting a basketball in the hoop. First of all, that's such a fast action that people don't sit there and think and talk in their head. But I do think that even that act itself is a highly complex intelligent moment where language reasoning comes in because you probably as an athlete you are keenly aware of scoring or missing, what it means to the game. Some of that is probably going on in a language way. But seeing the court, seeing the other players, and aiming the ball, that is deeply spatial. And orienting your body, knowing how to make that move, is deeply physical. So many things we do in life are actually a mixture of linguistic intelligence, spatial intelligence, and physical intelligence. So to me they are very complementary. They work together. I do deeply believe spatial is a huge piece of it. Evolution took 500 million plus years to get spatial intelligence to maturity. It took a much shorter time for language intelligence. So it's a very profound, ancient, fundamental intelligent capability of animals and humans.

那我们离完全理解它还有多远，比如 100%？

And how far are we from understanding the fullness of it, like 100%?

嗯，作为科学家，我从来不知道 100%是什么，因为科学本身就在不断拓展未知的边界。如果目标是人类智能，挑战在于我们甚至不知道人类智能有多远。我们永远不知道人类智能的边界。但如果你考虑人类的日常能力，平均能力——叠衣服、煎蛋饼、打篮球——我们离那个水平有多远？我们还没达到。但需要 100 年吗？我不这么认为。我的目标是我们在有生之年能达到。我认为很多人都在为此努力，所以这给出了一个界限。我不认为需要 100 年，可能甚至不需要 50 年，但也不会是 1 年。

Well, as a scientist, I never know what 100% is because science itself is pushing the boundaries of the unknown. If the goalpost is human intelligence, the challenge is we don't even know how far human intelligence is. We never know the boundary of human intelligence. But if you think of the daily capability of humans, the average capabilities—laundry folding, cooking an omelet, playing basketball—how far are we? We're not there yet. But is it going to take 100 years? I don't think so. My goal is we could get there in my lifetime. I think a lot of people are working on that, so that puts a kind of bound. I don't think it will take 100 years. It might not even take 50 years, but it's not going to take 1 year either.

你的估计是什么？李飞飞博士什么时候能从周日叠衣服中退休？多少年？

What is your estimate? When does Dr. Fei-Fei Li retire from laundry folding on Sundays? How many years?

昨天。就像我说的，我不知道。叠衣服本身也涉及物理具身，所以涉及传感器技术和硬件技术。这会更复杂一些。但再次，我希望是在我们有生之年。

Yesterday. Like I said, I don't know. Laundry folding itself also involves physical embodiment, so that involves sensor technology and hardware technology. That goes a little bit more complex. But again, I'm hoping it's in our lifetime.

是的，我也是。作为一个妈妈，我也希望。我知道这是一个你出于多种原因避免使用的术语，但我的假设是，你无法接近 AGI——我知道你出于多种原因避免这个词——你甚至无法接近它，直到我们解决了空间智能。因为那关乎理解他人、与世界互动。

Yeah, me too. As a mom, I'm hoping. I know this is a term you avoid for a whole host of factors, but my hypothesis would be you can't get anywhere close to what AGI—which I know is the word you avoid for a host of reasons—is, you can't even get close to it until we do the spatial intelligence. Because that's about reading people, interacting in the world.

是的，你知道，我不会去对抗这个词的流行。只是作为一个学者，学术界这个领域被称为人工智能。从科学严谨性上讲，这里的 G（通用）是什么意思并不清楚。但不管怎样，那只是一个词，一个昵称吧。是的，我同意你，David。我认为 AI 或智能是复杂的。我认为没有空间智能，AI 的图景就不完整。

Yeah, you know, look, I'm not going to fight the popularity of this word. It's just as a scholar, the field in the academic world is called artificial intelligence. It's not scientifically rigorously clear what the G means here. But whatever, that's just a word, a nickname, I guess. Yeah, I agree with you, David. I think AI or intelligence is complex. I don't think the picture of AI will be complete without spatial intelligence.

今天我们多次提到能动性。David，作为一家教育公司的负责人，你对那些想培养自己能动性的人有什么建议？你甚至如何教你的孩子能动性？

So, we mentioned agency so many times today. David, as someone who runs an educational company, what would be your advice for people who want to work on their agency? How do you even teach your kids agency?

这是一个非常好的问题。我研究过的文献还没有完全解决这个问题。所以我们还不知道确切的方法。我们有一些假设，如果你把能动性分解成各个部分，我们就能找到线索。例如，我们知道能够感到安全从而真正去冒险是其中的重要部分。我们知道能够失败并从中学习是能动性的一大组成部分。我们知道重新振作的韧性非常重要。我们知道对世界的好奇心也是其中的重要部分。还有一些像想要解决某个问题或给某人留下深刻印象的基本需求，这些不一定是最好的特质，但它们会驱动你。如果你需要解决一个问题，那会迫使你找到能动性。我认为我看到的研究更多是关于什么驱动能动性的定性方面，是人们会说的东西。有一些证据，但很薄弱。

It's a really good question. The research I've looked into is not quite there yet. So we don't know exactly how to do it. We have hypotheses, and if you break down agency into individual parts, we then have clues for it. For example, we know to be able to feel safe to actually take risks is an important part of it. We know that being able to fail and learn from those is a big part of agency. We know the resilience to get back up is really important. We know that there's a curiosity in the world that's also a big part of it. There are also things like fundamental needs to want to solve a thing or to impress someone, which aren't necessarily the best traits, but those things drive you. If you need to solve a problem, that will force you to find agency. I think the research I've seen is much more on the qualitative side of what drives agency. Things people will say. There's some evidence for this, but it's weak.

对吧？你希望生活在一个爱、食物、睡眠和心理健康这些基本需求都得到满足的世界。我们也知道，你可以通过激励来推动它。所以，我们做过一些事情，比如做这件事就能获得额外报酬。报酬确实会促使你去做。但自主性本身，从我自己的经验来看，社会生活中很大一部分都在教导我们寻求赞美。想想看，小时候我们寻求父母的赞美，在学校寻求老师的赞美，工作中寻求老板的赞美。而拥有自主性，就像你说的那种创业精神，不仅仅适用于创业者。它几乎是对那种寻求赞美的社会价值观的拒绝。我记得我创办 Masterclass 的时候，所有人都说那是个不可能的想法，是个坏主意。对于一个一生都在寻求赞美的人来说，那真的很难。但后来我意识到并改变的是，如果你有一个所有人都认为好的想法，那它可能并不是个好主意。嗯。实际上，要拥有自主性，要成为创业者，你必须去追求别人认为不可能的事情。现在作为创业者，当有人说某件事不可能时，我会想，“哦？”“哦，我想深入了解一下。”对吧？所以我认为这是一个根本性的转变，它源于很多因素。我希望我能告诉你，如果教你四件事，你就能拥有高度自主性，但实际情况比这复杂得多。是的。完全同意。你说得很美。是的。

Right? You want to be in a world that you have the fundamentals of love and food and sleep and mental health are provided for you there. Um we know also that you can incentivize it, too. So I think, you know, we have done things where you get additional comp if you do this thing. Comp does push you to do things on it. Um but agency itself, from my own experience, so much of life in society we are taught to seek praise. If you think about it as kids, praise from our moms and dads. Yeah. School, praise from our instructors. Um jobs from our bosses. And having agency and that to your point that entrepreneurialism but isn't just for entrepreneurs. It's almost a rejection of that societal value or push to be praised. I remember when I started Masterclass, everybody told me it was an impossible idea and a bad idea. And that was really hard for me for somebody who sought praise for most of my life. And then but then what I had to realize and change was to if you have an idea that everybody thinks it's good, it's probably not a good idea. Mhm. And that you actually to have agency and to be an entrepreneur, you have to chase what other people think is actually impossible. And then now as an entrepreneur, when somebody says something's impossible, I'm like, "Ooh." "Ooh, like I want to dive more into that." Right? And so I think it's like a fundamental shift and it comes from a lot of things that like I wish I knew if I teach you these four things you're now going to have high agency, it's more complicated than that. Yeah. Totally. I think you'd said it beautifully. Yeah.

嗯，你提到了自主性的一个方面，我觉得是独立思考。你写过一篇 Substack 文章，教人们关掉一切，自己做决定，并产生自己的想法。作为一个被教导要回应赞美的人，我觉得这太可怕了。因为如果你的观点与朋友相悖，你提出这个意见，他们不同意，你如何锻炼这种能力？因为我觉得这对自主性也非常重要。

Uh you have this aspect of which I I feel like is an aspect of agency, independent thinking. You wrote this uh Substack where um you're teaching people to like switch everything off, make your own decisions. But and uh generate your own thoughts. What I feel like as someone who's been taught to respond to praise, it's so scary. Cuz if it's contrarian to what your friends and you're like come up with this opinion and they disagree with you, how do you train that muscle? Cuz I feel like it's so important for agency as well.

嗯，这个问题触及了家庭价值观的核心。我个人如何锻炼这种能力？对我自己、我的孩子、我的学生来说，就是大卫所说的一切。就是鼓励，简单来说就是不要懒惰。我知道我们这一代人常常抱怨网络太多、社交媒体太多、人工智能太多。但我实际上持相反观点。我认为我们的新一代，下一代，我甚至有点羡慕他们，因为我觉得他们的世界更加多元化。如果你习惯了使用 Twitter/X、Instagram 或 TikTok，你会开始意识到世界充满了各种声音。是的。而不是像过去世界更小更窄时那样，只有一位老师或一位家长。所以，我们的年轻一代天生就生活在一个充满声音、观点和可能性的世界里。这可能令人望而生畏。如果使用不当，我们知道社交媒体有很多问题。但这也可以是机会，因为你可以利用这个现实提醒年轻一代：看，你的声音才重要，因为没有权威声音，或者只有极少数人拿着扩音器，对吧？这可以用来鼓励年轻一代重新审视他们生活的世纪。这是一个充满工具的时代，这些工具可以赋予你自主性。这是一个如果你相信，你的声音比任何人的声音都重要的时代。这与我们这一代非常不同。

I well, this question goes into the heart of family values. How do I personally train them muscle for for me, my kids, my students is um is everything David said. It's encouragement is uh is um um you know, as simple as don't be lazy. I know that people my generation lament about there's too much internet, there's too much social, there's too much AI. I actually have a contrarian view. Um I think our new generation, our next generation I'm actually a little envious of them because I think their world is much more heterogeneous. That if you're used to being on Twitter {slash} X, you're used to being on Insta or uh TikTok, you start to realize the the world is full of voices. Yeah. Instead of that one teacher or one parent when the world was smaller and narrower. So, our new generation of young people are are natively born into a world full of voices, full of opinions, full of possibilities. And that can be daunting. That can be if used misguided, we we we know, I'm not saying, I mean, there's a lot of issues in social media and and all that. But that can be also opportunity because you kind of you can use this reality to to remind the young generation Look, it's it's your voice that matters because you know, there's no authoritarian voice or or tiny tiny number of people holds the megaphone, right? And and that can be um used to encourage um young generation to to re-examine the century they're living in. And this is a century of a lot of tools that can give you agency. This is a century of your voice matter more than anybody else's voice if you believe in that. And that's very different from our generation.

你有什么类似的东西吗？比如给那些对 AI 好奇、刚刚入门的人一个启发？

Do you have anything like that? Like an unlock for people who are curious about AI just starting?

所以首先，如果严格来说是我的员工，我想他们可能不会在那里工作。是的。是的。如果他们不使用 AI，他们可能不会在那里。所以对于像 World Labs 这样深度 AI 技术的初创公司来说，这根本不是一个问题。但我确实想把这个问题转向那些更公众化的人群，尤其是现在已经是专业人士的那一代。你们是老师、护士、会计师，无论你是谁。而公众讨论，就像我们之前说的，非常两极分化。除了焦虑，你真的不知道如何接触 AI。我想鼓励那些有这种感觉的人：找一个孩子，无论是你的孩子、侄子还是侄女，他们很可能在 25 岁以下。几乎所有人都在以某种方式使用 AI。保持好奇心。让他们给你展示他们如何使用 AI。不要把这当作一项技术来担心，而是对他们将要生活的未来世界感到好奇——你的孩子、你的孙子、你的学生将生活的世界——并试着想象你无论如何都会踏上通往那个世界的旅程，而他们可以成为你的向导。是的。不要担心你从未学过计算机科学，或者不知道打开哪个应用。让你生活中已经信任或有关系的年轻人牵着你的手，用一个周末或一次会话的时间，向你展示这个世界其实并不可怕，如果你真正了解它，它甚至可以赋予你力量。如果你确实觉得它有问题，如果你觉得它不完美，通过了解它，了解问题所在，你的声音也能更好地被听到。当然。是的。

So so first of all, if it's narrowly about my employee I mean I I probably aren't working there. Yeah. Yeah. If they're not using AI They're probably not going to be there. So so that's just a moot question for a deep AI tech startup like World Labs. But I do want to turn that question to talk to those who are um more in the public, especially the generation right now who you're already professionals. You you are teachers, nurses, you know, accountants, whoever you are. And um And the public discourse, like we said earlier, is so polarized. You don't really, other than anxiety, you don't really know how you can get to AI. I think I do want to encourage um people who feel that way is that um find a kid, either your own kid or your nephew or your niece that they are likely to be younger than 25 year old. Almost all of them are already using AI in some way. And uh be curious. Ask them to just show you how they use AI. And uh don't worry about this as a technology, but be curious about the future world that they will live in, your kid will be living your grandkid will be living, your student will be living, and try to just imagine that you're going to take that journey into that world anyway, and they can be your guide. Yeah. And just not worry about that I never learned computer science or I don't know which app I can open. Just let the young person in your life who you already trust or have a relationship with hold your hand for a weekend or for for a session and show you that this is a world that's not that scary if you actually know what it is, and it can be empowering. And if you do find it troublesome, if you do find it uh imperfect, by knowing it, by knowing where these issues are, your voice can be heard better. Absolutely. Yeah.

我认为这是一个很棒的结尾。非常感谢。保持好奇心，培养你的自主性，为之努力，非常感谢你分享的信息和你所做的工作。

I think that's an amazing ending to this. Thank you so much. Stay curious, develop your agency, work on it, and thank you so much for info done for your work.

谢谢。

Thank you.