AI 教母：从物理到空间智能

过去几年，人工智能改变了我们所有人的生活，其起源故事是什么？你即将听到的对话，是一位见证了一切的人，一位在我们周围正在发生的变革性技术发展中发挥了真正变革性作用的人。她被称为 AI 教母，但我认为这并不能完全涵盖她自己的贡献。坦率地说，我认为她的工作应该更广为人知。她是一位科学家、教授、科技公司 CEO，也经历过生活中的艰辛。她 15 岁时从中国移居美国，英语水平有限，后来经营父母的干洗店以帮助家庭维持生计。以下是我与李飞飞博士在 Michelle Hussein 节目上的对话。李博士，感谢您来到节目。我想从您所在行业这个非凡的时期开始。距离 ChatGPT 公开发布已经三年了，自那以后，出现了新的工具、新的应用，大量投资涌入该行业。您觉得这一刻怎么样？

What is the origin story of the way AI has changed all our lives in the last few years? The conversation you're about to hear is with someone who has seen it all, someone who has played a really transformative role herself in what is happening around us now in the development of this transformational technology. She has been called the godmother of AI, but I think that doesn't fully cover what she has contributed herself. And frankly, I think her work ought to be better known. She is a scientist, a professor, a tech CEO, and someone who has seen hardship in her life. She moved from China to the United States when she was 15 with little English and later ran her parents' dry cleaning business so that she could help her family stay afloat. So here's my conversation with Dr. Fei-Fei Li on the Michelle Hussein show. Dr. Li, thank you for coming on the show. I'd love to start with this remarkable period for your industry. It's three years since ChatGPT was released to the public and since then there have been new vehicles, new apps, huge amounts of investment flowing towards the industry. How does this moment feel to you?

首先，Michelle，感谢你邀请我参加这个节目。我非常兴奋。这一刻对我来说感觉如何？这是个好问题，因为 AI 对我来说并不新鲜。我从事这个领域已经 25 年了。从职业生涯开始，我每天就沉浸其中。然而，这一刻就其巨大而深远的影响而言，仍然让我感到令人生畏，甚至有些不真实。我真心认为，这是一项文明级别的技术。对我个人来说，这很不真实，因为我是促成这一切的科学家群体中的一员，而且我显然没有预料到它会如此庞大。

Well, first of all, Michelle, thank you for inviting me to this show. I'm very excited. How does this moment feel to me? It's a good question because AI is not new to me. I've been in this field for 25 years. I live and breathe it every day since the beginning of my career. Yet, this moment is still as daunting and almost surreal to me in terms of its massive profound impact. It is genuinely true in my mind: this is a civilizational technology. And it's surreal personally to me because I'm part of the group of scientists that made this happen, and clearly I did not expect it would be this massive.

什么时候发生了转变？因为我知道你谈到过那些像 AI 寒冬一样的年份。你现在描述的，连你自己都觉得这一刻非同寻常。是因为发展速度，还是因为世界已经觉醒，从而把聚光灯转向了你这样的人？

When was the moment it changed? Because I know you've talked about the years when it was like an AI winter. And what you're describing now, how the moment feels extraordinary even to you. Is it because of the pace of developments or is it because the world has woken up to it and therefore turned the spotlight on people like you?

我认为这是相互交织的，对吧？但对我来说，将这项技术定义为文明级别的技术，与聚光灯无关，甚至与它有多强大无关。而是关于它影响了多少人。归根结底，技术——技术的终点是它对人的影响。我称之为文明时刻，因为每个人的生活、工作、福祉和未来都将以某种方式被 AI 触及或影响，无论是好是坏。

I think it's intertwined, right? But for me, to define this as a civilizational technology is not about spotlight. It's not even about how powerful it is. It's about how many people it impacts. At the end of the day, technology—the end of technology is its impact on people. And I call it a civilizational moment because everyone's life, work, well-being, and future will somehow be touched by or impacted by AI, in bad ways as well as good.

嗯，技术是一把双刃剑，对吧？

Well, technology is a double-edged sword, right?

是的，我认为两方面都有，因为自人类文明诞生以来，我们创造了我们称之为技术的工具，这些工具通常是为了做好事，但在此过程中，我们可能会以错误的方式使用它们，我们可能会故意以错误的方式使用它们，或者我们可能会产生意想不到的后果。

Yes, I think both ways because since the dawn of human civilization, we create tools we call technologies, and these tools are meant in general for doing good things, but along the way we might use them in the wrong way, we might intentionally use them in the wrong way, or we might have unintended consequences.

我知道这些线索会在这次对话中以不同的方式出现。但你提到了“力量”这个词，我注意到这项技术的力量掌握在极少数公司手中，其中大多数是美国公司。你对此怎么看？

And strands of this I know will emerge in different ways over the course of this conversation. But you said the word power and I'm struck by the fact that the power of this technology is in the hands of a very small number of companies, most of them American. How does that sit with you?

你说得对。大型科技公司掌握着如此多的技术本身，并通过其广泛覆盖的产品，对我们的全球社会产生了最大的影响。我个人希望看到这项技术更加民主化。我希望看到，无论谁构建或掌握这项技术的深远影响，都要以负责任的方式去做。而且我也相信，在这个时代，每个个体都有并且应该感到他们有能动性去影响这项技术。

You're right. The major tech companies hold so much of the tech itself and through their massively reaching products, they are impacting our globally our society the most. I would personally like to see this technology being much more democratized. I would like to see no matter who builds or holds the profound impact of this technology, do it in a responsible way. And I also do believe every individual in this era has and should feel they have the agency to impact this technology.

我们稍后会再谈谈民主化以及如何实现它。但当然，就这个领域的公司而言，你也是其中一员，因为你既是科技公司 CEO，也是学者。事实上，我认为你非常年轻的公司，成立才一年多，据报道已经价值十亿美元。

We'll talk a bit more in a moment I think about the democratization and how that might be achieved. But you of course in terms of companies in this field, you're part of that because you are a tech CEO as well as an academic. In fact, I think your very young company, little more than a year old, is reportedly already worth a billion dollars.

是的，我是 World Labs 的联合创始人兼 CEO，我们成立才一年多，正在构建 AI 的下一个前沿——空间智能，今天人们对此了解不多，因为我们都在关注大语言模型，但我相信空间智能与语言智能同样重要且互补。

Yes, I am co-founder and CEO of World Labs, and we are a little more than a year old and we are building the next frontier of AI which is spatial intelligence, which people don't hear too much about today because we're all about large language models, but yet I believe spatial intelligence is as critical and complementary to language intelligence.

这个虚拟世界的想法我们稍后会深入探讨，但在此之前，我想让你带我们回顾一下，你见证了这整个行业的发展轨迹，你已经在这个领域 25 年了。我知道你最初的学术爱好是物理学。

This idea of virtual worlds which again we'll dig into, but before we do that I want you to take us back again to the fact that you've seen the whole trajectory of this industry, you've been in it for 25 years. I know that your first academic love was physics.

是的。

Yes.

在你最敬佩的物理学家的生活或工作中，是什么让你超越那个特定领域去思考？

What was it that in the life or work of the physicists you most admire that made you think beyond that particular field?

这是个好问题。我在中国一个不太知名的城市长大。我来自一个小家庭，所以可以说生活从某种意义上说是小的。我的童年是在 80 年代，相当简单和孤立。你是独生子女。我是独生子女，这在中国独生子女政策下很常见。我的家庭总体上很小。而物理学几乎相反。它广阔、大胆。想象力是无限的。你仰望天空，可以思考宇宙的起源。你看一片雪花，可以放大到物质的分子结构。你思考时间。你思考磁场。你思考核。它只是将我的想象力带到了这个世界中你永远无法到达的地方。直到今天，物理学真正让我着迷的是提出大胆的问题。它不害怕问关于我们物理世界、我们的宇宙、我们来自何处的最大胆、最无畏的问题。

That's a great question. I grew up in a less well-known city in China. And I come from a small family, so you could say life was small in a sense. It was in the 80s, my childhood, which was fairly simple and isolated. You're an only child. I was the only child, as was often the way in China under the one child policy. And my family in general is just small. And physics is almost the opposite. It's vast. It's audacious. The imagination is unbounded. You look up in the sky, you can ponder about the beginning of the universe. You look at a piece of a snowflake, you can zoom in into the molecular structure of matter. You think about time. You think about magnetic field. You think about nuclear. It just takes my imagination to places that you can never be in this world. What really fundamentally fascinates me to this day about physics is asking the audacious questions. It's not being afraid of asking the most boldest audacious question about our physical world, of our universe, of where we come from.

但我认为你大胆的问题是：什么是智能？

But your audacious question I think was about what is intelligence?

是的。我认为这植根于我对物理学的热爱和物理学训练，我观察每一位我敬佩的物理学家，看他们的大胆问题，对吧？从牛顿到麦克斯韦到薛定谔到爱因斯坦，我最喜欢的物理学家。我想找到我自己的大胆问题。在大学中期，我的大胆问题从物理物质转向了智能。它是什么？它是如何产生的？最迷人的是，我们如何构建智能机器？这成为了我的追求，我的北极星。

Yes. And I think it's rooted in my love for physics and my training in physics that I look at each physicist I admire, look at their audacious question, right? From Newton to Maxwell to Schrödinger to Einstein, my favorite physicist. And I wanted to find my own audacious question. And somewhere in the middle of my college, my audacious question shifted from physical matters to intelligence. What is it? How does it come about? And most fascinatingly, how do we build intelligent machines? And that became my quest, my north star.

那是一个量子跃迁，因为从做计算和运算的机器，你真正谈论的是能够学习并且不断学习的机器。

And that's a quantum leap because from machines that were doing calculations and computations, you're really talking about machines that learn and that are constantly learning.

我喜欢你用了物理双关语‘量子跃迁’。进入了日常用语。但我想，你在思考智能时，是不是有一个顿悟时刻，意识到其中关键的一部分是我们识别周围世界物体的能力。事实上，现在我们周围有多个物体，我们知道它们是什么。

I like you used the physics pun, the quantum leap. Crossing over into ordinary parliament. But I think didn't you have this light bulb moment where as you're thinking about intelligence, you realize that a critical part of that is our ability to recognize objects in the world around us. The fact that around us right now there are multiple objects. We know what they are.

是的。识别大量物体、其变异性和多样性的能力是人类认识世界的基础，有很多神经科学研究支持这一点。所以我决定那是我最初的起点：我的博士论文就是构建机器算法——当时我们称之为机器学习算法——来识别尽可能多的物体。

Yes. The ability to recognize the vast number of objects, the variability, the diversity that humans have about recognizing objects in the world is foundational, and there is a lot of neuroscience studies that backs this. So I decided that that was my first start: my PhD dissertation is to build machine algorithms—we at that point called it machine learning algorithms—to recognize as many objects as possible.

我认为关键问题是如何做，对吧？你怎么教机器？我发现你的背景中非常有趣的一点是你阅读非常广泛，有两个关键突破使你的最终突破成为可能。一个是你开始思考和学习心理学家和语言学家与你领域相关的观点。告诉我这两点。

I think the key question is how, right? How do you teach the machines? And what I found really interesting about your background is that you are reading very widely, and there are two key breakthroughs that make your ultimate breakthrough possible. One is that you start thinking and learning about what psychologists and linguists are saying that is related to your field. Tell me about both of those.

嗯，这就是做前沿科学的美妙之处，因为它是新的。没人知道怎么做。作为 AI 科学家，你会思考可能的答案，很自然地会看人类大脑和心智，试图理解或从人类能做的事情中获得灵感。我早期研究或试图解开视觉智能问题时的一个灵感，是看我们的视觉语义空间是如何组织的。世界上有成千上百万的物体。它们是如何组织的？是按字母顺序，还是按大小或颜色？

Well, that's the beauty of doing science at the forefront because it's new. No one knows how to do it. As an AI scientist, you think about possible answers, and it's pretty natural to look at the human brain and human mind and try to understand or be inspired by what humans can do. One of the inspirations I got in my early days of studying or trying to unlock this visual intelligence problem is to look at how our visual semantic space is structured. There are so many tens of thousands and millions of objects in the world. How are they organized? Are they organized by alphabets, or by size, or colors?

你问这个是因为你必须理解我们的大脑如何组织，才能有东西教给计算机。

And you're asking that because you have to understand how our brains organize in order to have something to teach the computers.

这是一种思考方式。我偶然发现了一个语言学工作叫 WordNet。WordNet 是一种组织语义概念的方式——不是视觉的，只是语义的——或者说按特定分类法组织词汇。

That's one way to think about it. And I came upon this linguistic work called WordNet. WordNet is a way to organize semantic concepts—not visual, just semantic—or words in a particular taxonomy.

给我举个例子。

Give me an example.

一个例子是：在字典里，苹果和电器离得很近，但在现实生活中，苹果和梨更接近。苹果和梨都属于水果，而电器属于完全不同的物体家族。我发现了这个叫 WordNet 的分类法，它描述了物体的这种组织方式，我在脑海中建立了一个联系，有两件事很清楚。一是这可能是视觉概念组织的方式，因为苹果和梨比苹果和洗衣机联系更紧密。但更重要的是规模：如果你看语言描述的物体数量，你会意识到它有多庞大、多大。那是一个特别的顿悟：认识世界。我们作为智能动物、作为人类，用海量数据体验世界。

An example is: in a dictionary, an apple and an appliance are very close together, but in real life, an apple and a pear are much closer to each other. Apple and pear both belong to fruits, whereas an appliance belongs to a whole different family of objects. And I came upon this taxonomy called WordNet that describes this organization of objects, and I made a connection in my head that two things are very clear. One is that this could be the way visual concepts are organized, because apples and pears are much more connected than apples and washing machines, for example. But also, even more importantly, is the scale: if you look at the number of objects described by language, you realize how vast it is, how big it is. And that was a particular epiphany for me: to recognize the world. We as intelligent animals, as humans, we experience the world with massive amount of data.

而且我们 somehow 处理了所有信息。

And somehow we process it all.

是的。我们 somehow 处理了所有信息，也学习了所有信息。

Yeah. Somehow we process it all and also learn it all.

我们需要赋予机器这种能力。

And we need to endow machines with that ability.

因此你需要大数据集。实际上值得注意的是，在那个时候——我想是本世纪初——大数据的概念并不真正存在。

Hence the big data sets that you needed. And actually it's worth noting that at that time—I think this is early part of the century—the idea of big data doesn't really exist.

2006 年。

2006.

不，大数据——这个词甚至不存在，没人谈论数据驱动的机器学习。我们当时使用的科学数据集都很小。

No, big data was not—this phrase did not even exist, and nobody talks about data-driven machine learning. The kind of scientific datasets we were playing with were tiny.

有多小？

How tiny?

例如，在图像方面，我那个时代的大多数研究生使用的数据集只有四、六或最多二十个物体类别，每个类别最多几百个样本。就是那么小。而三年后，在我们创建 ImageNet 之后，它有 22,000 个物体类别和 1500 万张标注图像。

For example, in images, most of the graduate students in my era were playing with datasets of four or six or at most twenty object classes, and each class had a couple of hundred examples at most. That's how tiny it is. Whereas fast forward three years later, after we created ImageNet, it had 22,000 classes of objects and 15 million annotated images.

ImageNet 是一个巨大的突破。这就是为什么你被称为 AI 教母。我很想了解更多是什么让你能够建立这些联系，看到其他科学家没看到的东西。我立刻想到的一点是，你在移居美国后学习了英语作为第二语言。这其中有什么东西导致了你所描述的成就吗？

And ImageNet was a huge breakthrough. It's the reason that you've been called the godmother of AI. I'd love to understand more about what it is about you that enabled you to make these connections and see things that other scientists didn't. And one that immediately comes to mind is that you acquired English as a second language after you moved to the United States. Is there something in that that led to what you're describing?

Michelle，这是个好问题。我被问过这个问题，我真实的答案是不知道。人类创造力仍然是个谜。人们谈论 AI 做一切，我不同意。人类心智的奥秘我们还有很多不知道。所以我只能推测，我的兴趣和经历的结合导致了这一点，包括好奇心和渴望定义大胆的问题。我发现自己在科学中不怕问疯狂的问题，不怕寻求跳出框框的解决方案。也许我对视觉与语言联系的欣赏，因我自己学习不同语言的经历而增强，但我不知道答案。

Michelle, that's a great question. I've been asked this question, and my true answer is I don't know. Human creativity is still such a mystery. People talk about AI doing everything, and I disagree. There's so much about the mystery of the human mind that we don't know. So I can only conjecture that a combination of my interest and my experiences led to this, including the curiosity and the hunger for audacious problem definition. I find myself not afraid of asking crazy questions in science, not afraid of seeking solutions that are out of the box. And maybe my appreciation for the linguistic link with vision might be accentuated by my own journey of learning a different language, but I don't know the answer.

作为一个青少年来到美国是什么感觉？因为我认为那是人生中特别困难的阶段，要搬家、交新朋友，即使没有语言障碍也很难。

What was it like coming to the United States as a teenager? Because I think that's a particularly difficult stage in life to move and to have to make new friends even if you weren't battling a language barrier. That was hard.

我认为——作为一个移民——我 15 岁时来到美国，在新泽西的帕西帕尼。我和我的父母几乎都不会说英语。我足够年轻，学得更快。对我父母来说非常艰难，我们经济上非常拮据。我父母做收银员工作，后来我在中餐馆打工。最终，在我上大学时，我妈妈的健康也不太好。所以我和家人决定在新泽西经营一家小干洗店，只是为了赚钱生存。

That I think—being an immigrant—I came to this country in America when I was 15, in Parsippany, New Jersey. None of us, my parents nor I, spoke much English at all. I was young enough to learn more quickly. It was very hard for my parents, and we were very, very—we were not financially very well at all. My parents were doing cashier jobs, and eventually I was doing Chinese restaurant jobs. Eventually, by the time I entered college, also my mom's health was not so good. So my family and I decided we have to run this little dry cleaner shop in New Jersey to just make some money to survive.

你直接参与工作。

And you got involved yourself working directly.

我今天开玩笑说我是 CEO。我经营那家干洗店七年。

I joked today I was the CEO. I ran the dry cleaner shop for seven years.

从多大开始？

From what age?

我从 18、19 岁一直到研究生中期。

I was 18, 19 to the middle of my graduate school.

所以贯穿了整个大学和研究生阶段。

So all the way through college and graduate school.

七年。

Seven years.

即使你不在身边，你也在打理父母的干洗店生意。

Even when you're at a distance, you're running your parents dry cleaning business.

是的。因为我是家里唯一会说英语的人。所以我接所有客户电话，处理账单，处理所有检查，所有生意。

Yes. Because I was the one who spoke English. So I took all the customer phone calls. I dealt with the billing. I dealt with all the inspections, all the business.

这教会了你什么？

What did it teach you?

韧性。我认为作为科学家，你必须要有韧性，因为科学是非线性的旅程。没有人能一开始就有一个猜想和所有答案。你必须经历这样的挑战才能找到答案。作为移民，你学会了坚韧。

Resilience. I think as a scientist you have to be resilient because science is a nonlinear journey. Nobody has one conjecture and all the solutions in front of you. You have to go through such a challenge to arrive and find an answer. And as an immigrant you learn to be resilient.

你的父母在推动你吗？因为他们显然想让你过得更好，所以才离开中国来到美国。那么，这有多少来自他们，又有多少来自你对他们责任感？

Were your parents pushing you because they clearly wanted a better life for you? That's why they left China for the United States. So, how much of this was coming from them and how much from your own sense of responsibility to them?

嗯，这确实是个好问题。公平地说，他们并没有怎么逼我。用现在的话说，他们不是虎妈虎爸。我觉得部分原因是他们自己也在努力生存，说实话。尤其是我妈妈，她骨子里是个知识分子，热爱阅读。但艰难的移民生活加上她的健康问题，她完全没有逼我。我想作为青少年，我别无选择。要么成功，要么失败，赌注很高。所以我很有自驱力，而且幸运的是，我天生好奇。我一直是个好奇的孩子，我的好奇心有出口——科学，这让我很踏实。我对夜店之类的东西不感兴趣。我热爱科学。

Yeah, actually that's a great question. To their credit, they did not push me much. They're not tiger parents in today's language. I think part of it is they're just trying to survive, to be honest. And especially my mom, she is an intellectual at heart. She loves reading. But the combination of a tough survival-driven immigration life plus her health issues, she was not pushing me at all. I think as a teenager I kind of had no choice. I either have to make it or not make it, and the stakes are pretty high. So I was pretty self-motivated and also one of the lucky things I have is that I was just curious. I was always a curious kid and my curiosity had an outlet which was science and that really grounded me. I wasn't curious about nightclubs or other things. I was an avid lover of science.

而且你从小就是个如饥似渴的读者，很早就放下了儿童读物，转向了经典著作。

But also an avid reader, from your early childhood you're putting away the children's books and turning towards the classics.

我妈妈喜欢读的书。

Books my mom liked reading.

她可能觉得——你说的是我九、十岁的时候，那时她可能确实有影响，更大的影响。她觉得我足够早熟，可以读一些成人书了。

And she probably thought that you're talking about when I was nine or ten, at that time she probably did have an influence, more influence. She thought I was precocious enough that just read some grown-up books.

你生命中还有一位非常重要的老师。跟我讲讲他吧。

You also had a teacher who was really important in your life. Tell me about him.

我数学成绩很好，也喜欢数学，我和班主任 Bob Sabella 先生以及数学老师成了朋友。我们因为共同热爱科幻小说而成为朋友。

I excelled in math and I liked math and I befriended the head teacher Mr. Bob Sabella and the math teacher. We became friends through the mutual love of science fiction reading.

你当时读的是中文版。

Which you'd read in Chinese.

那时我读的是中文，后来开始读英文。但他是个了不起的人，因为他可能在我身上看到了这种求知欲。所以他特意为我创造机会，让我继续在数学上出类拔萃。我记得我跳过了最高级别的数学课程，所以没有更多的课可上了。他就用午餐时间给我开一对一课程。现在长大了，我知道他没有额外报酬，也不是为了获奖。这完全是出于老师的爱和责任感，他真的成了我生命中非常重要的人。他和他的家人。

Which at that time I was reading in Chinese, eventually I started reading in English. But he is a remarkable person because he probably saw in me this desire to learn. So he went out of his way to create opportunity for me to continue to excel in math. I remembered I placed out of the highest curriculum of math and so there was no more courses for me. He would use his lunch hours to create a one-on-one class for me. And now that I'm a grown-up, I know he was not paid extra. He was not waiting to win any prize to do that. It was really out of a teacher's love and sense of responsibility and he really became such an important person in my life. He and his family.

他还活着吗？Sabella 先生。

Is he still alive? Mr. Sabella.

Sabella 先生在我成年后去世了，那时我是斯坦福的助理教授。但他的家人——他的两个儿子、他的妻子——我觉得他们现在就是我在新泽西的家人。

Mr. Sabella passed away when I was grown up, when I was an assistant professor at Stanford. But his family, his two sons, his wife, I think they're my New Jersey family at this point.

你用“爱”这个词来形容他为你做的事。我在想，他和他的家人是否也带你进入了美国社会？他们是你第一批朋友，也是你进入学校之外整个美国世界的入口吗？

You use the word love about what he did for you. And I wonder if they also, he and his family, introduced you to American society. Were they your first friends and an entrance to the whole world of America beyond your school?

绝对是的。他们让我见识了典型的中产阶级美国家庭。他们住在郊区房子里，有两个可爱的孩子。当然，现在他们都结婚了，有了孙辈。但这对我来说是一扇很好的窗户，让我了解社会、脚踏实地、拥有朋友，还有一位关心我的老师。

Absolutely. They introduced me to the quintessential middle class American family. They live in a suburban house. They have two lovely kids. Of course, they're all married and have grandchildren now. But it was a great window for me to know the society, to be grounded, to have friends, and to have a teacher who cared.

你认为你在中国能有现在这样的职业生涯吗？因为现在中国在 AI 领域取得了重大进展。

Do you think you could have had the career that you have had in China because now there are significant advances happening in AI in China.

我觉得我无法回答这个问题，因为生活太充满机缘巧合了。旅程会非常不同。在某种意义上，我们可以模拟所有可能性。但对任何人来说，永恒不变的是好奇心和对北极星的追求。所以，如果我还是我，我相信我仍然会以某种方式从事 AI。

I don't think I'm able to answer this question because I think life is so serendipitous. The journey would be very different. In a way, we could have simulated all possibilities. But what is timeless or invariant for anyone is the sense of curiosity, the pursuit of north stars. So, if I were me, I will still be doing AI somehow, I believe.

你仍然觉得自己与中国有联系吗？

Do you still feel connected to China?

这是我传统的一部分。我感到非常幸运，我的职业生涯在美国高等教育、硅谷，以及进出工业界和科技界。所有这些元素的组合非常全球化。感觉非常全球化。我的家庭现在所处的环境——斯坦福、旧金山、硅谷——非常国际化。所以我感觉联系很紧密，而且我所从事的 AI 学科是横向的，触及各地的人们，所以此刻我更觉得自己是一个全球公民。

It's part of my heritage. I feel very lucky that my career has been in American higher education and then Silicon Valley, also in and out of industry and being in tech. The combination of all these ingredients is very global. It feels very global. The environment my family is in right now, which is Stanford, San Francisco, Silicon Valley, is very international. So I feel very connected and the discipline I'm in, which is AI, is so horizontal. It touches people everywhere that I do feel much more like a global citizen at this point.

是的。当然这是一个全球性行业，但中国有一些非常引人注目的进展，尤其是专利数量、AI 公开论文数量，以及今年早些时候的 DeepSeek 时刻。展望本世纪，你认为中国会像在制造业等其他领域那样赶上美国吗？

Yeah. And of course it is a global industry but there are some really striking advances in China, not least the number of patents and the number of AI public papers coming out, the DeepSeek moment earlier this year. As you look ahead in this century, do you think China will catch up with the US in the way that it has in other fields like manufacturing?

我确实认为中国是 AI 强国。我认为美国也是，目前大多数人会承认 AI 领域的两个领先国家是中国和美国。我认为英国也是一个非常强大的 AI 参与者。我确实在全球旅行。我认为许多地区和国家的兴奋、能量，以及坦率地说，雄心——希望在 AI 中扮演角色，希望在某些领域赶上甚至领先——这是相当普遍的。

I do think China is a powerhouse in AI. I think the US is, at this moment, most people would recognize the two leading countries in AI are China and US. I think the UK is also a very powerful player in AI. I do travel around the globe. I think the excitement, the energy, and also frankly the ambition of many regions and many countries in the world of wanting to have a role in AI, wanting to catch up or even come ahead in certain areas of AI, that is pretty universal.

是的。你自己的下一个前沿：空间智能。告诉我你用“空间智能”这个词是什么意思。你现在在做什么？

Yeah. And your own next frontier: spatial intelligence. Tell me what you mean when you use the word spatial intelligence. What are you working on right now?

是的，空间智能是 AI，或者说任何智能体，理解、感知、推理、交互以及创造空间和世界的能力。它源于视觉智能的延续。

Yeah, so spatial intelligence is the ability for AI, or frankly any intelligence, to understand, perceive, reason and interact and also create spaces, worlds. It comes from a continuation of visual intelligence.

正如我所说，我的职业生涯始于视觉智能，前半段工作围绕图像展开。那时我们试图解决一个基本问题：理解我们看到了什么。这是一个非常重要的问题，但还不够，因为那是一个非常被动的行为——只是接收信息并能够识别：这是一个杯子，这是一个漂亮的花瓶，这是一个麦克风。但如果你看看进化，看看人类智能，感知与行动是深刻相连的。我们因为移动而看，我们因为需要看得更好而移动。这种联系——如何建立这种联系——与空间有很大关系，因为你需要看到 3D 空间。你需要理解物体如何运动。你需要理解：当我触摸这个杯子时，我如何数学地组织我的手指，从而创造一个能让我抓住这个杯子的空间？所有这些复杂性都围绕着空间智能这一能力。

As I said, my career started in visual intelligence, and the first part of my career, the first half, was around the image. At that time, we were trying to solve the fundamental problem of just understanding what we are seeing. That was a very important problem, but it's not enough because that's a very passive act—just receiving information and being able to understand: this is a cup, this is a beautiful vase, this is a microphone. But if you look at evolution, if you look at human intelligence, perception is profoundly linked to action. We see because we move. We move because we need to see better. And that connection—how do you create that connection—has a lot to do with space, because you need to see the 3D space. You need to understand how things move. You need to understand: when I touch this cup, how do I mathematically organize my fingers so that it creates a space that would allow me to grab this cup? All this intricacy centers around this capability of spatial intelligence.

我看了你们的网站，看到了你们发布的预览版 Marble。你可以看到一个虚拟世界，进入其中，从一个房间到另一个房间，一扇门打开，你从一个地方到另一个地方。但我不确定你们如何使用它。它本质上是一个训练 AI 的工具吗？一种不同的训练 AI 的方式，而不是像 Meta 所说的那样，这是一个你可以进入并作为人类在其中消磨时间的元宇宙？

I've looked at your website and seen the preview you've released, Marble. You can see essentially a virtual world which one goes into, from room to room, and one door opens and you go from one place to another. But I'm not sure how you use it. Is it essentially a tool for training AI? A different way to train AI, rather than, for example, Meta saying this is in the metaverse, a world you can go into and spend time in as a human being?

好，让我们明确一下定义。Marble 是一个前沿模型，一个前沿世界模型。它的作用不仅仅是看到并进入一个世界。真正了不起的是，它可以通过一个简单的提示生成一个 3D 世界。提示可以是“给我一个现代风格的厨房”。或者提示可以是“这是一张现代风格厨房的图片，把它变成一个 3D 世界”。甚至可以是“这里有几张现代风格厨房的图片，确保它们为我创建一个连贯的现代风格厨房模型”。你可能会问为什么。实际上有很多很多用例。首先，创建 3D 世界的能力是一种基本能力。它对人类来说是基本的，我希望有一天它对 AI 也是基本的。其次，如果你是设计师或建筑师，你可以使用这个 3D 世界来进行构思和设计。如果你是游戏开发者，你可以利用它来创建大量游戏，因为它是 3D 的。目前，获取这些 3D 世界以便设计游戏是非常痛苦的。如果你是视觉特效制作人或艺术家，你可以用它来制作电影。如果你想进行机器人模拟，这些世界将作为机器人的训练数据或评估数据变得非常有用。如果你想在 AR、VR 中创建沉浸式教育体验，这个模型可以帮助你做到这一点。所以它实际上有着极其广泛的用途。

Right, so let's be clear with the definition. Marble is a frontier model, a frontier world model. What it does is not just to see and go into a world. What's really remarkable is it generates a 3D world from a simple prompt. A prompt could be, 'Give me a modern-looking kitchen.' Or the prompt could be, 'Here's a picture of a modern-looking kitchen. Make it a 3D world.' It could even be, 'Here are a couple of pictures of a modern-looking kitchen. Make sure they create a coherent model of a modern-looking kitchen for me.' And you might ask why. There are actually many, many use cases. First of all, the ability to create a 3D world is a fundamental ability. It's fundamental to humans, and I hope one day it's fundamental to AI. Second, if you are a designer or architect, you can use this 3D world to ideate, to design. If you are a game developer, you can use it because it's 3D to create a lot of games. Right now, it's very painful to obtain these 3D worlds so that you can design games. If you are a VFX producer or artist, you can use that to create movies. If you want to do robotic simulation, these worlds will become very useful as training data for robots or evaluation data. If you want to create immersive educational experiences in AR, VR, this model would help you to do that. So it actually has incredibly horizontal use.

有意思。我在想象阿富汗的女孩们，也许你可以做虚拟教室。是的，在一个非常困难的地方。

Interesting. I'm imagining girls in Afghanistan, maybe you could do virtual classrooms. Yes, in a very challenged place.

是的。或者我在想象，例如，你如何向一位 80 岁的老人解释什么是细胞？有一天我们会创造一个细胞内部的世界，一个人体细胞，或任何细胞，对吧？然后学生可以走进那个细胞，理解细胞核、酶、膜。所以你可以用它来实现很多可能性。

Yes. Or I'm imagining, for example, how do you explain to an 80-year-old what is a cell? One day we'll create a world that's inside of a cell, a human body cell, or any cell, right? And then the student can walk into that cell and understand the nucleus, the enzymes, the membranes. So you can use this for so many possibilities.

好的。所以这是你的下一个前沿。我知道你的行业非常庞大复杂，但有一些紧迫的问题，我想挑几个问你，让你给我们一个直觉性的甚至简短的回应，说说你的看法。例如，你以前听过很多次了，第一：AI 会摧毁大量工作吗？

Okay. So that's your next frontier. Can we—and I'm conscious yours is a very big, complex industry—but there are some immediate pressing issues, and I wonder if I could put a selection of those to you for you to give us an instinctive or even a nutshell response on how you see them. For example, and you'll have heard this many times before, number one: is AI going to destroy jobs, large numbers of jobs?

技术确实会改变劳动格局。像 AI 这样影响深远的技术将对工作产生深远影响，这已经在发生了。Salesforce 表示，他们 50%的客户支持岗位将因为 AI 而消失。软件工程、呼叫中心、分析师工作。所以它会的——毫无疑问。

Technologies do change the landscape of labor. A technology as impactful and profound as AI will have a profound impact on jobs, which is happening already. Salesforce said 50% of their customer support roles are going to go because of AI. Software engineering, contact centers, analyst jobs. So it will—there's no question about it.

它不会创造同样多的替代工作，对吧？我想知道这是否让你担心。

It's not going to create as many jobs in its place, is it? I wonder if that worries you.

我认为尚无定论。每次人类创造出更先进的技术——例如蒸汽机、电力、个人电脑、汽车——我们都经历了困难时期，但也经历了工作的重新布局。所以仅仅谈论数量多少是不公平的。我们需要以更细致的方式看待这个问题，并真正思考如何应对这种变化。有个人层面的责任：你必须学习，必须提升自己的技能。但也有公司层面的责任，以及社会层面的责任。所以这是一个非常大的问题。

I think the jury is still out there. Every time humanity has created a more advanced technology—for example, steam engine, electricity, PC, cars—we have gone through difficult times, but we have also gone through a relandscaping of jobs. So only talking about the number, bigger or smaller, doesn't do justice. We need to look at this in a much more nuanced way and really think about how to respond to this change. There is individual-level responsibility: you got to learn, you got to upskill yourself. But there is also company-level responsibility, and societal-level responsibility. So this is a big, big question.

第二个问题甚至更大。如果你戴上耳机，我想让你听一段关于人类是否会被 AI 取代的生存问题的观点。这是你认识的声音，杰弗里·辛顿教授，他的工作与你有交集，他也是诺贝尔奖得主。[片段：'当 AI 变得超级智能时，它可能会取代我们。我们如何防止它接管？即使所有国家合作，我们能做什么？我认为目前所有大公司和政府都采用了错误的模式。他们的基本模式是：我是 CEO，这个超级智能 AI 是极其聪明的执行助理。我是老板。但当它比我们更聪明、更强大时，情况就不会是这样了。'] 你怎么看？因为辛顿教授认为 AI 导致人类灭绝的可能性有 10%到 20%。

Number two is an even bigger question. If you take those headphones, I want to play you the voice and a view on the existential question about whether human beings are going to be replaced by AI. And this is a voice you'll know, Professor Geoffrey Hinton, whose work has overlapped with yours and who is a Nobel laureate as well. [Clip: 'When AI gets super intelligent, it might just replace us. How do we prevent it taking over? Even if all the countries collaborate, what do you do? And I think at present all the big companies and governments have the wrong model. Their basic model is: I'm the CEO and this super intelligent AI is the extremely smart executive assistant. I'm the boss. It's not going to be like that when it's smarter than us and more powerful than us.'] What do you think of that? Because Professor Hinton thinks there's a 10 to 20% chance that AI leads to human extinction.

首先，辛顿教授——或者我称他为杰夫，因为我从研究生一年级就认识他，已经 25 年了——他是我钦佩的人，我研究过他的技术论文。但关于取代人类这件事，我实际上 respectfully disagree。不是说这永远不会发生。而是说，如果人类真的陷入麻烦，在我看来，那是人类做错事的结果，而不是机器做错事。但他在那个片段中提出的非常实际的一点是：当超级智能创造物变得比我们更聪明时，我们如何防止它接管？我们对此没有模型。

First of all, Professor Hinton—or I call him Jeff because I have known him for 25 years since I was a first-year graduate student—he's someone I admire and I studied his technical papers. But this thing about replacing the human race, I actually respectfully disagree. Not in the sense that it'll never happen. It's in the sense that if the human race becomes really in trouble, in my opinion, that's a result of humans doing wrong things, not machines doing wrong things. But the very practical point that he put in that clip is where he says: how do we prevent the super intelligent creation from taking over at the point that it becomes more intelligent than us? We have no model for that.

如果那个比我们更智能的造物说关掉人类生命维持系统或做其他关乎存亡的事，我们该如何阻止它？

Now if that creation that is more intelligent than us says turn off human beings life support or do something else that is existential how would we stop it?

我认为这个问题做了一个假设：从今天（我们还没有超级智能机器）到那个造物诞生的日子，人类什么都没做来阻止那一天的到来。只是假设那一天会到来。我甚至不一定认为它会来，那是一种可能性。但这是一个合理的问题，至少在科学上推测它很有趣。但假设这个推测是对的，它会发生。我们仍然有距离，从今天到那一天还有一段路要走。我的问题是，为什么人类作为一个整体会允许这种情况发生？我们的集体责任在哪里？我们的治理或监管在哪里？

So I think this question has made an assumption which is from today which we don't have such a machine super intelligent machine yet to the day that that thing is created that humanity has done nothing to prevent that day to arrive. Just assume that day would come. I don't even necessarily think it might. It's a probability. But that's a fair question or at least scientifically it's interesting to conjecture that. But let's just assume that's the right conjecture is going to come. We still have a distance. We still have a journey to take from today to that day. And my question is why would humanity as a whole allow this to happen? Where is our collective responsibility? Where's our governance or regulation?

这就是为什么我想知道，你认为有没有办法确保超级智能有一个上限？

Which is why I wonder then do you think there is a way to make sure that there is an upper limit to super intelligence?

我认为有办法确保技术的负责任开发和使用，在国际上达成一致，比如在政府层面。是条约吗？还是仅仅公司同意以某种方式行事？

I think there is a way to make sure there is a responsible development and usage of technology internationally agreed like at the government level. Is it a treaty? Is it just companies agreeing to behave in a certain way?

你说得对。这个领域太新了，我们还没有达到国际条约的水平，也没有全球共识。我认为我们有全球意识，但我想说，我们不应该过度关注 AI 的某一种可能后果或负面后果。这项技术很强大，它可能有其他负面后果，但也有大量对人类有益的应用。我们需要全面看待。

You're right. The field is so nascent that we don't yet have the level of international treaties. We don't yet have the level of global consent. I think we have global awareness and I do want to say that we shouldn't over focus on only one possible consequence or negative consequence of AI. This technology is powerful. It might have other negative consequences. It also has a ton of benevolent applications for humanity. We need to look at this holistically.

那你是否对某些问题感到沮丧？因为我知道你经常与政界人士、有政治权力的人交谈。你在美国、英国、法国和其他地方都这样做过。他们最常问你的、让你觉得沮丧的问题是什么？

Do you get frustrated by some of the questions then? And because I know you talk to politicians, people with political power a lot. You've done that in the US. You've done that in the UK and in France and elsewhere. What's the most common question they ask you that you find frustrating?

我不会用“沮丧”这个词，我会用“担忧”。因为我认为我们关于 AI 的公共讨论需要从那个非常简单的问题——机器霸主来了我们该怎么办——转移开。所以我不沮丧，但如果问这个问题的方式只是简单的二元选择——你要还是不要——我会担忧。另一个我经常被问到的问题，可能比这个还多，是来自父母的问题：全世界的父母问我，AI 来了，我该怎么建议我的孩子？我孩子的未来是什么？他们应该做什么？他们应该学计算机科学吗？他们还会有工作吗？

I wouldn't use the word frustrating. I would use the word concerned because I think our public discourse of AI needs to move from the very simple question of what do we do when machine overlord is here. So I don't get frustrated. I get concerned if the only way to ask this question is this very simple binary do you want it or not want it. Another question I get asked a lot possibly more than this question is question from parents is that worldwide parents ask me AI is coming how do I advise my kids what's the future of my kids what should they do should they study computer science are they going to have jobs?

那就回答吧，听众可能也在想同样的问题。你怎么说？

So answer it then people listening to this are probably thinking exactly the same what do you say?

好的，我说 AI 是一项非常强大的技术，而我自己也是一位母亲。我们应该赋予孩子的最重要的东西，是让他们作为人拥有自主性、尊严和学习的渴望。还有一些永恒的人类价值观，比如做一个诚实的人、勤奋的人、有创造力的人、有批判精神的人。

Okay, I say that AI is a very powerful technology and I'm a mother. The most important thing we should empower our kids is to empower them as humans with agency, with dignity, with the desire to learn. And there are timeless values of humanity, you know, be an honest person, be a hardworking person, be creative, be critical.

担心他们学什么。

Worry about what they'll study.

担心不是正确的词。要充分了解，明白你孩子的未来将生活在 AI 技术的世界里，根据他们的兴趣、热情、个性和环境，为他们做好迎接那个未来的准备。担心解决不了问题。

Worry is not the right word. Be totally informed and understand that your children's future is going to be living in a world of AI technology and depending on their interest, their passion, their personality, their circumstance, prepare them in that future. Worry doesn't solve the problem.

我还有一个行业问题，是关于大量资金流入像你们这样为数不多的公司，这是否可能是一个泡沫，是否可能像互联网泡沫一样，结果发现其中一些公司被高估了。

I've got another industry question which is about the huge sums of money that are flowing into again not that many companies like yours and whether this might be a bubble, whether this might be like a dot bubble where it turns out that some of these companies are overvalued.

首先，我的公司还是一家初创公司。当我们谈论大量资金时，我们真正关注的是大型科技公司。AI 仍然是一项新兴技术，从发展的角度来看，还有很多需要开发。科学非常困难，需要付出很多才能取得科学和技术突破。这就是为什么为这些努力提供资源仍然很重要。另一方面是市场：我们能看到市场的回报吗？总的来说，我确实相信 AI 的应用非常广泛，无论是软件工程、创意、医疗、教育还是金融服务，我认为我们将继续看到 AI 市场的扩张。我认为有太多人类需求——无论是福祉还是生产力——都可以通过 AI 作为助手或协作者得到帮助，我坚信这部分是一个不断扩大的市场。

First of all, my company is still a startup. When we're talking about huge amount of money, we really look at the big techs. AI is still a nascent technology and from a development point of view, there's still a lot to be developed. The science is very hard. It takes a lot to make scientific and technological breakthroughs. This is why resourcing these efforts is still important. The other side of this is the market: are we going to see the payoff from the market? By and large I do believe that the applications of AI is so massive whether we're talking about software engineering to creativity to healthcare to education to financial services that I think we're going to continue to see an expansion of the market of AI. I look at it as there are so many human needs both in terms of well-being as well as in terms of productivity that can be helped by AI as an assistant as a collaborator and that part I do believe strongly that this is an expanding market.

但它在电力、能源以及气候方面的代价是什么？有一位著名的 AI 企业家，你可能知道，杰瑞·卡普兰，他说我们可能正走向一场新的生态灾难，因为我们将需要越来越多的庞大数据中心，它们消耗大量能源。

But what does it cost in terms of power and therefore energy and therefore climate? There's a prominent AI entrepreneur, you probably know, Jerry Kaplan, who said that we could be heading for a new ecological disaster because of the amount of energy consumed by the vast data centers that we're going to need in growing numbers.

这是一个有趣的问题。我确实认为，为了训练大型模型，我们对电力或能源的需求越来越大。但没有人说这些数据中心必须由化石燃料供电。我们在能源方面的创新将是这个创新周期的一部分。

This is an interesting question. I do think that in order to train large models, we're seeing more and more need for power or energy. But nobody says these data centers must be powered by fossil fuel for example. Our innovation on the energy side will be part of this innovation cycle.

我认为只是因为它们需要的电量如此巨大，很难想象仅靠可再生能源就能满足。

I think it's just because the amount of power they need is so enormous. It's hard to see it coming from renewable energy alone.

我认为目前确实如此。但我也知道，例如我访问中东时，那里有很多为大型数据中心建设可再生能源的努力。我确实认为，需要建设这些大型数据中心的国家也需要审视其能源政策和产业。这是一个投资和开发更多可再生能源的机会。

I think right now this is true. But I also know that as for example I visit Middle East there's a lot of effort in building renewable energy for big data centers. I do think that countries that need to build these big data centers also need to examine its energy policy and industry. This is an opportunity for us to invest and develop more renewable energy.

你对你的行业有什么担忧？因为你描绘了一幅非常积极的图景，而且你一直处于前沿，看到了更多潜力。所以我理解你的立场。但在你安静的时候，

What worries you about your industry? Because you're painting a very positive picture and you've been at the forefront of this and you see much more potential. So, I understand where you're coming from. But in your quieter moments,

我不是技术乌托邦主义者，也不是反乌托邦主义者。我认为我实际上是无聊的中间派。无聊的中间派希望用更务实和科学的视角来看待这个问题。那么我担心什么？当然，任何工具落入错误的心态或意图之手都会让我担心。你知道，就像我们说的，自从人类文明诞生以来，火对我们物种来说是如此关键的发明，但用火伤害人就是极其糟糕的。所以任何对 AI 的错误使用都让我担心。与公众沟通的错误方式也让我担心，因为我确实感到世界各地有很多焦虑。我担心的一个问题是我们的老师，尤其是 K12 教师。

I'm not a tech utopian, nor am I a dystopian. I think I'm actually the boring middle. The boring middle wants to apply a much more pragmatic and scientific lens to this. So what worries me? Of course any tool in the hands of the wrong mindset or wrong intention would worry me. This, you know, like we said that since the dawn of human civilization, if fire was such a critical invention for our species, yet using fire to harm people would be massively bad. So any wrong use of AI worries me. The wrong way to communicate with the public worries me because I do feel there's a lot of anxiety in different parts of the world. The one worry I have is our teachers, especially our K12 teachers.

这些人以及我个人的经历告诉我，他们是社会的支柱。他们对教育下一代至关重要。我们和他们有正确的沟通吗？我们让他们跟上时代了吗？我们的老师是否在用 AI 工具来赋能他们的职业？他们是否在传递这些，或者帮助我们的孩子使用 AI？

These people and my own personal experience tells me they're the backbone of our society. They are so critical for educating our future generation. Are we having the right communication with them? Are we bringing them along? Are our teachers using AI tools to superpower their profession? Are they passing that or helping our children to use AI?

这里是彭博周末访谈，我们总是对人们的生活和工作都感兴趣。我意识到你的生活，你今天的生活，与你成长的方式截然不同——在父母的干洗店工作，家里有很多洗衣活。那么，你意识到自己作为我们这个时代和未来行业领导者的力量了吗？

This is the Bloomberg Weekend Interview and so we're always interested in people's lives as well as their work. And I realized that your life, the life that you're living today is so different from the way that you grew up, working in your parents' dry cleaner, keeping a lot of laundry at home. So, are you conscious of the power that you have as a leader in this industry of our time and the future?

这是个有趣的问题，Michelle。我意识到自己的责任。我知道我是将这项技术带到这个世界的人之一。我知道自己非常幸运，能在世界上最好的大学之一工作，教育未来的领导者，并进行前沿研究。我意识到自己是一名企业家，也是生成式 AI 领域最令人兴奋的初创公司之一的 CEO。所以我所做的一切都有后果，这是我肩负的责任，我非常认真地对待。因为我一直告诉人们：在 AI 时代，主动权应该掌握在人类手中。主动权不在机器，而在我们。我的主动权是创造令人兴奋的技术，并负责任地使用它。

It's an interesting question, Michelle. I'm conscious of my responsibility. I understand I'm one of the people who brought this technology to our world. I understand that I'm so privileged to be working at one of the best universities in the world, educating tomorrow's leaders and doing cutting-edge research. I'm conscious of myself being an entrepreneur and a CEO of one of the most exciting startups in the Gen AI world. So everything I do has a consequence and that's a responsibility I shoulder and I take that very seriously. Because this is what I keep telling people: in the age of AI, the agency should be within humans. The agency is not the machines, it's ours. My agency is to create exciting technology and to use it responsibly.

那你生活中的其他人，你的孩子们，你不让他们用 AI 或他们的设备或互联网做什么？

And the humans in your life, your children, what do you not let them do with AI or with their devices or on the internet?

不仅是我自己的孩子，任何人都是。我是一名老师和教育者。这是永恒的建议：不要用你的工具做蠢事。你必须思考为什么使用工具以及如何使用。简单来说，不要因为有 AI 就偷懒，对吧？如果你想理解数学，也许大型语言模型能给你答案，但那不是学习的方式。要问正确的问题。你可以用 AI 工具来引发好的问题，从而学习。所以，不要偷懒是其中之一。另一方面，不要用它做坏事。例如，信息的完整性，对吧？假图像、假声音、假文本。这些都是 AI 以及我们社会中社交媒体驱动的沟通所带来的问题。

Not only my own children, anyone. I'm a teacher and educator. It's the timeless advice of don't do stupid things with your tools. You have to think about why you're using the tool and how you're using it. It could be as simple as don't be lazy just because there is AI, right? If you want to understand math, maybe large language models can give you the answer, but that is not the way to learn. Ask the right questions. You could use the AI tool to prompt good questions so that you learn because of it. So, don't be lazy is one of them. The other side is don't use it to do bad things. For example, integrity of information, right? Fake images, fake voices, fake texts. These are issues of AI as well as our social media-driven communication in our society.

我认为你是在这个充满新发展和挑战的世界中呼吁老式价值观，这些挑战甚至三年前我们都无法想象。

I think you're sort of calling for old-fashioned values amid this world full of new developments and challenges we couldn't have imagined even three years ago.

是的，你可以称之为老式，也可以称之为永恒。作为一名教育者，作为一名母亲，我认为有些人类价值观是永恒的，我们需要认识到这一点。

Yeah, you can call it old-fashioned, you can call it timeless. As an educator, as a mom, I think there are some human values that are timeless and we need to recognize that.

好的。最后，你的阅读。因为你知道，从那个从小就阅读经典的孩子开始。如今，周末放松的时候你读什么，如果真有这样的时刻的话？

Okay. Finally, your reading. Because you know from the child who was already reading the classics at an early age. Nowadays, what do you read when you're kicking back at the weekend, if that ever happens?

嗯，说实话，我最近读了很多技术论文。有点可悲。我确实会读书，也会读给我的孩子听。我不得不说，我最近最喜欢的书是《哈利·波特》，因为它是一本很棒的书，我读给我的孩子听。

Yeah, honestly, I read a lot of technical papers these days. It's kind of sad. I do read, I also read to my kids. I have to say that my favorite book these days is Harry Potter because it's such a great book and I read it to my kid.

嗯，那个系列会让你忙活很长一段时间，取决于你读到哪一本了。是的。所以你没有剥夺他们生活中的儿童读物？

Well that series is going to keep you going for quite a long time depending on which book you're at. Yes. So you're not taking away the children's books in their lives then?

没有。因为他们生活在一个完全不同的时代。他们接触信息的方式与我的时代完全不同。我的时代，90 年代或 80 年代的中国几乎没有电视。现在他们有整个互联网。所以我给他们 Kindle。

No. Because they live in a totally different time. They actually are exposed to information in a completely different way from my time. My time, there was barely TV in the 1990s or 80s in China. Now they have the entire internet. So I give them a Kindle.

还有中文。你和他们说中文吗？

And Chinese. Do you speak to them in Chinese?

我和他们说中文，说得不太好，但我确实和他们说中文，他们的父亲和他们说意大利语。

I speak to them in, not great, but I do speak to them in Chinese and their father speaks to them in Italian.

好的。世界公民，你也成为了这样。李飞飞博士，非常感谢你。

Okay. Citizens of the world as you've become as well. Dr. Fei-Fei, thank you so much.

谢谢你，Michelle。

Thank you, Michelle.