从抗拒到成书：托尼撰写《Build》的心路历程

托尼，很高兴见到你。感谢你再次来到节目。

Tony, what a pleasure to see you. Thanks for coming back on the show.

蒂姆，很高兴再次和你在一起。我听说能来第二次是很少见的。所以，谢谢你邀请我。

Tim, it's great to be with you again. I hear that's a rare occasion to come on a second time. So, thanks for having me.

这确实很少见，我认为有很多好的理由。首先，第一次我们只聊了我全部笔记的一小部分，而且自上次谈话以来发生了很多事情。我必须直接问你。所以，你有了这本新书《Build》，副标题是《An Unorthodox Guide to Making Things Worth Making》，它编排得非常好。我看了看，没有读完，但确实读了好几章。我会继续读。很多图表、插图、故事、案例研究等等。然而，我回顾了我们第一次对话的转录稿——我在做后续采访前总是会这样做。我当时问你，你在什么方面挣扎，什么对你来说不容易。你当时说分析一直很难。还有长文写作。你缺乏耐心。你很难等待别人行动，当时机已到。你只想把事情做完。这就是你。所以，长文写作，但我们现在却有一本书。到底发生了什么？这是怎么实现的？

It is a rare event and I think there are many good reasons for it. The first is we only got through a small percentage of my total notes the first time around and many things have happened since we last spoke. And I have to ask you right up front. So, you have this new book 'Build' subtitle 'An Unorthodox Guide to Making Things Worth Making' which is incredibly well put together. I looked at it, I didn't read the whole thing, but I did read quite a few chapters. I'm going to read more. Lots of diagrams, lots of illustrations, stories, case studies, etc. I was looking back however at the transcript of our first conversation which I always do before having a follow-up. And I had asked you what you struggle with, what doesn't come easy. And you had said analytics has always been tough. Also long-form writing. It's a lack of patience. You have a hard time waiting on people to move when the time is now. You just want to get things done. That's you. So, long-form writing, but yet here we are with a book. So, what the hell happened? How did this come to manifest?

嗯，《Build》一直在我脑海里。显然不是这个标题，但这个概念已经在我脑海里大约 15 年了。很多人一直烦我：‘你什么时候写书？你什么时候写书？’你知道，我只是不想让它成为某种自传，或者看看这些伟大的东西，以及我和团队共同创造的所有美好事物，你知道，就是那种英雄故事。嗯，我真的很想回馈。做这件事的真正原因是，你知道，我抬头看，那是在 COVID 之前。所以我环顾四周，心想，我能坐在这里和你这样的人谈话的唯一原因，是因为有人帮助我取得了成功。一路上我有导师。从我还是个孩子的时候，经过学校，进入职场，我想到这些，我就想，哦。然后我想起谁曾经或现在是我的导师，我发现，你知道，他们中的大多数已经去世了。对我来说，我就想，哦，等等。这意味着接力棒已经传下来了，我要接过人们给予我的东西——他们的心、他们的时间、他们的精力、他们的热情来帮助我，而他们自己并没有直接的经济利益。他们帮助了我。所以，现在是我回馈的时候了。考虑到我们在 FutureShape 的工作，我们直接投资了超过 200 家公司，还有很多其他公司只是来寻求建议，我每天都在做导师。所以我开始把每次、每天、甚至每周多次反复出现的所有话题整理到一个电子表格中，然后开始想，好吧，这个，这个，这个。这些都是必要的核心内容。所以，《Build》就诞生于我一直进行的那些对话。至于长文写作，显然长文很难，我并没有完全自己完成。我有一位出色的合著者，Dina Lovinsky，她极大地帮助了我，我们合作了十多年。所以，她和我在纸上写下了文字，但概念和一切都直接来自我每天与这些初创公司创始人、甚至即将上大学的高中生、即将毕业的大学生（‘我应该去哪里工作？’）的对话。所以，所有这些事情汇聚并流动回来，希望这本书是一个装在盒子里的导师。所以，无论你是高中生，还是直到退休年龄的人，你都能在书中找到一些东西。这本书的结构——是的，它是长文，但实际上每一章，而且它最初是微章节，关于我认为影响大多数行业里试图做出特别成就的大多数人的关键主题的短章节。无论是为了他们自己的职业生涯，还是为了他们创建或管理的企业中的世界。所以，这就是它的本质。只是试图回馈。这非常有意义。非常困难。有时非常宣泄。非常个人化。非常原始。我没有手下留情。你知道，我们拭目以待。我希望有真正实用的建议，不仅仅是关于成功，还有我失败的各种方式，以及我如何从失败中站起来继续前进，因为正如你听到人们谈论的成功一样——你知道这一点，蒂姆——沿途有很多失败是大多数人不谈论的，我认为我们在书中花在谈论失败上的时间实际上比谈论成功更多，这样人们才能学习。

Well, 'Build' has been in the back of my mind. Obviously not the title, but the concept has been in the back of my mind for about 15 years now. I've had a lot of people bugging me: 'When are you going to write a book? When are you going to write a book?' You know, and I just didn't want it to be some kind of autobiography or a look at this great stuff and here's all the wonderful things that the team and I created together, you know, just these kind of hero stories. Well, I really wanted to give back. And the real reason for doing this is, you know, I looked up and this was just before COVID. So, I was looking around going, you know, the only reason why I'm sitting here talking to someone such as yourself is because people helped me with my success. I had mentors along the route. From all the way from when I was a young kid through school into the working world and I thought about that and I was like, oh. And then I thought about who were or are my mentors and I found out, you know, most of them had died. And for me, I was like, oh, wait a second. That means the baton has been passed and to take, you know, what people gave me, their heart, their time, their energy, their passion to help me with no economic benefit to them directly. They helped me. So, now it's time for me to give back. And given our work at FutureShape where we have over 200 companies we've directly invested in and lots of other companies who just come to ask for advice, I was being a mentor every day. So, I just started putting together all of the topics that kept coming up every single time, every day, even multiple times a week into a spreadsheet and started going, okay, this, this, this. These are the core things necessary. And so, 'Build' was born out of just those conversations that I have all the time. And so, to get into long-form, obviously long-form is difficult and I didn't do it all myself. I had a brilliant co-writer, Dina Lovinsky, who helped me tremendously and we've worked together for over a decade. So, she and I put the words on the page, but the concepts and everything came directly from the conversations I have daily with all of these startup founders or even high schoolers going into college, college people getting out, 'Where should I go work?' So, it was all of those things coming at and flowing back and hopefully this book is a mentor in a box. So, no matter whether you're a high schooler all the way through, you know, retirement age, you are able to access something in the book. And the book is set up—yes, it's long-form, but really every chapter and it started out as micro chapters, short chapters about real key topics that I think affects most people in most industries who are trying to do something special. And so, for either themselves in their career or for the world in the businesses that they create or manage. And so, that was really what it was. It's just trying to give back. And it was really rewarding. It was very difficult. It was very cathartic at times. It's very personal. It's very raw. I didn't pull punches. And you know, we'll see what happens. I hope there's real practical advice, not just about success, but here's all kinds of ways that I failed and how I picked myself up from the failure and moved on because for as much success you hear people talk about—and you know this, Tim—there's a lot of failure along the way that most people don't talk about and I think we actually spend more time talking about the failures than we do the successes in the book so people can learn.

好的。所以，对于那些看不到我的人，我笑得合不拢嘴。如果你只听音频，我笑是因为很多原因。首先，我们刚刚停顿了一下。每个听众都应该想象托尼在员工面前，比如为发布而鼓舞他们，或者确定如何前进，或者在克服危机之后。我刚刚读完了一章关于讲故事的内容，它谈到把‘为什么’放在‘是什么’之前。所以，你，我是说，是书中讨论的很多内容的活生生的例证。我想强调‘没有手下留情’，你得相信我，当我举这个例子时，我至少了解我的一部分听众。我只是——有很多令人难忘的、非常具体的故事，它们从组织架构图设计一直延伸到处理内部政治和不同种类的——而那个特定的故事，我们不必马上深入，但那个故事，你可能知道它要讲什么，我读的时候大笑起来，就是有人把你拉进办公室，和 HR 一起，说：‘这个房间里有两大巨头，我的最大。’他们就是这样开始会议的。以及你如何应对这样的人，因为这是驾驭创业旅程——在某些情况下，无论是产品还是公司建设——中不愉快的现实。所以，我现在想谈谈你提到的导师。你有很多导师。你可以从导师那里以不同的方式学习。导师可以让你坐下来教你一课。他们可以以身作则。在某些情况下，他们可能向你展示你不应该做什么，你可以从他们的错误中学习。所以，我想谈谈‘为工作拼命’那一章，我只读了开头，因为我不想给自己剧透。

Okay. So, I'm grinning ear to ear for people who can't see me. If you're listening just to the audio and I'm grinning for a whole bunch of reasons. The first is we just paused for a second. Everyone listening should imagine Tony in front of employees, say rallying them for a launch or say identifying how they're going to move forward or after conquering a crisis. There's a chapter on storytelling that I just finished reading which talks about putting the why before the what. And so, you are, I mean, a walking illustration of a lot of what's discussed in the book. And I want to underscore the not pulling punches and you'll have to trust me that I know at least some subset of my audience when I give this example. I just—there are a lot of memorable, very highly specific stories and they range from org chart design all the way to handling internal politics and different breeds of—and the particular story, we don't have to get into this right away, but the story, you may know where this is going, that I broke out laughing over when I was reading it was having someone pull you into an office with HR and saying, 'There are two big swinging dicks in this room and mine is the biggest.' And that's how they started the meeting. And how you deal with someone like that because this is the unpleasant reality of navigating the entrepreneurial and in some cases, whether it's product or company building journey. And so, I wanted to now just go to this mention of mentors. So, you've had many mentors. And you can learn from mentors in different ways. So, mentors can sit you down and teach you a lesson. They can lead by example. In some cases, they can show you perhaps what you shouldn't do and you can learn from their mistakes. So, I want to visit the 'killing yourself for work' chapter which I only read the very beginning of because I didn't want to kind of spoil any surprises for myself.

你能告诉我们，从史蒂夫·乔布斯身上你学到了什么关于度假的经验吗？他是怎么度假的？

Could you tell us what you learned from Steve Jobs about taking vacations? How did Steve Jobs take vacations?

我不了解他所有的度假经历，只知道我们在苹果共事那 10 年里他度假的情况。实际情况是，史蒂夫会去度假。早期我还想，太好了，他去度假了，我们 7 到 14 天不用听他唠叨了。但梦想和现实差距很大。史蒂夫通常去一两个固定的地方，他总去同样的地方，这没问题。头 24 到 48 小时他会完全消失，在旅途中，和家人在一起。那 48 小时（有时 72 小时）里你什么消息都收不到。但之后，你就会开始接到电话——不是邮件，是史蒂夫亲自打来的。他在度假时会思考下一个产品、苹果的下一个方向、新技术，以及他读到的东西。他把度假当作拓展思维、跳出苹果日常和已知项目的时间。有时也会想如何改进现有项目。他会开始琢磨：要不要买一家音乐公司？或者做另一种产品？需要什么技术来实现？因为他也在阅读或听别人谈论不同技术。于是他会打电话给你，把你当谷歌用。他会问：“嘿，这个的最新进展是什么？”你回答：“史蒂夫，我们知道这些，那个我不清楚，我去查一下回复你。”他说：“好，知道了就发邮件给我。”15 分钟后他可能又打回来，带着另一个想法。所以，度假期间他会在合理的时间段联系你，不是疯狂的时间。每天你可能接到他五六个电话，取决于他当时在想什么。有时可能一天零个，但迟早他会打电话来，想和你 brainstorm 某个点子，或者了解某个与他脑中想法相关的最新信息。你其实很喜欢这样，因为可以和他聊各种非日常的话题。但有时你又会想：“史蒂夫，你该好好度假。”以及“你回来之后我们得干多少活啊？”——除了我们手头已经堆积如山的工作之外。

I don't know of all of his vacations. I know of the vacations he took while we were together at Apple for 10 years. And what was really happening was, you know, Steve would go on vacation and in my early days there I would be like, yes, he's going on vacation. It's great. Or you know, we're not going to have to hear from him for 7 or 14 days or whatever the case may be. Well, that dream met reality and the reality was very different. It turned out that Steve, you know, he would go on vacation. He would usually vacation at one or two places and he'd go to the same places all the time. That's what he liked and that's all good. And he would go silent for the first kind of 24 48 hours, he would be gone. He would be in transit. He would be with his family, what have you. For those first 48 hours, you wouldn't hear anything, maybe 72. But somewhere right after that, you started getting calls. Wasn't emails, it was calls from Steve. And Steve would be on vacation and he would be pondering where the next product, the next direction for Apple, new technologies, things he's reading. He used that vacation as a time to kind of expand his thinking and get outside of the Apple the day-to-day and the projects that we all knew and loved. Or maybe there was this couple of things to improve on the projects we were working on. But he would start thinking about, oh, let's go buy a music company or should we go and do this other kind of product or what technology will it take to do this? Cuz he's also reading. He's reading or he's listening to others saying different technologies. So, he would be calling go You would be like Google for him. He'd like, "Hey, what is the latest on this?" And you're like, "Okay, Steve. Here's what we know. I don't know that. I can go get back to you." He's like, "Oh, let me know when you know. Send me an email on that." And then 15 minutes later, he might call back with a different idea. And so, it was literally while he was on vacation during reasonable hours. This wasn't wasn't crazy hours. But you might hear from him on vacation five or six times depending on what he was thinking about at that time per day. Could be as much as a maybe zero per day, but sooner or later along that vacation, he would call you and like want to brainstorm something or want a piece of knowledge or want to know the latest about something that was related to some some idea he had in his head. And so, you loved it because you got to talk to him about all kinds of things that weren't the day-to-day. But at the other times, you were like, "Okay, Steve, you need to be on vacation." And then two is, "How much work are we going to have when you come back?" Besides the the incredible mountain of work we're already on top of, or trying to get on top of.

那么，你为什么用那个故事开头，又为什么写这一章？回顾我们第一次对话（我鼓励大家去读），我尽量不重复。在 General Magic 时，你的工作方式可以说是高强度、高负荷、高投入，满分 10 分。但后来似乎变了。对不了解 General Magic 的人，我想说——如果我说得不对请纠正——它有点像《佐杜洛夫斯基的沙丘》，那是一部失败的《沙丘》改编尝试，但聚集的人才后来形成了技术创新的惊人 diaspora，就像盖格创作了《异形》等等。所以 General Magic 有点像那样，是许多杰出职业生涯的起点。这个类比很棒。那么，你为什么用那个故事开头，又为什么写那一章？

So, why did you lead with that, and why write this this particular chapter? Because flashing back again to our first conversation, which I encourage people to read. I'm going to try to not overlap too much with that. But back at General Magic, you had a certain let's say approach to work, which was high ball high volume, high intensity, kind of 10 out of 10. And that seems to have have changed over time. And just for people who have no idea what General Magic is, I I just want to say and and tell me if this is off base, but it's kind of like Yodoworski's Dune in a sense where if people don't understand that, that was an attempt at making Dune, which failed. But the talent that was assembled ended up being this incredible diaspora of kind of technical innovation that then spread all over the place. You had like Geiger, you know, creating Alien and so on. So, General Magic was somewhat like that, I would say. The genesis of a lot of amazing careers. It's a great analogy. Yeah, great analogy. So, why why did you lead with that story in that chapter? And why why even write that chapter?

对我而言，我经历过那种个人挣扎。我觉得很多人都有——认为必须比别人更努力、花更多时间工作。所以我每周工作 80、100、110 个小时，因为我觉得必须这样。我以为需要通过工作小时数和完成的工作量来证明自己。同时我也充满热情，就像孩子进了糖果店。我是个极客，心想：“哦，这个我能做，那个也能做，还能做这个。”工作时间越长，我就越能向周围这些优秀的人学习和工作。所以我一方面要学习如何工作，另一方面要真正去工作，并且像身边的英雄们那样达到专业水平。这需要大量学习。上学时你既要上课又要学习，而第一份工作比上大学更甚，你投入大量时间，但也开始学习如何高效——什么才是真正的产出和做好工作，而不仅仅是耗时间。这就是我的顿悟点。我还要说，在 General Magic 那段时间，我其实有未确诊的 ADD/ADHD，几年后我才搞清楚状况。我一边努力工作和达到专业水平，一边还要应对 ADHD。如果你写过代码就知道，写代码需要关注细节，而如果你的思绪总是飘忽不定，一切都会更难。所有这些因素叠加在一起。所以那一章讲的是：我当时的状态，也许你也有类似经历，以及如何找到更平衡的方法。这不是典型的日常工作生活平衡，而是一种既能高效产出、做出惊人成就，又能给自己每天和每年适当休息时间的方法。并且意识到，当你暂时离开某项活动时，反而能更清晰地思考并找到答案，而不是一直沉浸其中。

For me, I went through that personal struggle. And I think a lot of people do of I need to work harder than everyone else and spend more time working. So, I was working 80, 100, 110 hours a week kind of thing, because that's what I thought needed to happen. I thought I needed to prove myself through the number of hours, through the amount of work that I could get done. And I was also really passionate and kind of like, you know, you're a kid in the candy store. Like for me, I'm a geek, right? I'm like, "Oh, I could do this. I could do that. And I get to work on this." And the more hours I got at there, I could go and work and learn, right? From all of these great people around me. So, I one thing I had to learn how to do the work. And the other one is doing the work, right? And learning how to do it at a professional level like my heroes around me would do. So, there was a lot of learning. And you know, when you go to school, you go to school, but you're also doing your studying and all the other stuff. So, it it was a little bit more than you going to a university, but your first jobs are really like that. You spend a lot of time. But you also start to learn how to be productive, okay? And what being productive means and doing a great job versus just being there a lot of hours. And so, that's where it all hit for me. I I will say this, I I was undiagnosed ADD ADHD at that time frame I was in General Magic, and ultimately a couple of years later, then I actually figured out what was going on. So, I was trying to do my work and and perform at a professional level, learn the work, and I had ADHD across all of it. So, if you know anything about writing code, right? Writing code and being in the details. And if your mind's always going Oh my god, it made everything harder, right? So, it was all of those things compounded. And so, that that chapter's really about, here's where I was, maybe you're experiencing a lot of this yourself, and here's where a more balanced approach. Now, it's not your typical work-life daily balance, but here's a way to do it to be high performing, do amazing things, but to also give yourself the right amount per day, as well as per year of time off, right? And time to think and and realize that when you get to go away from a certain activity you're doing every time, you might be actually be able to think about it more clearly and come up with the answers more clearly if you're away from it as opposed to into it all the time.

作为 CEO，你为自己设定的年度休假节奏是怎样的？我知道在两次工作之间，我们在第一次对话中聊过“感到无聊”这件事——花三周时间整理车库或做些别的事，让那些不明显的想法浮现出来，从而获得洞察。我们对此聊了不少。

What did you find for yourself that annual cadence off looked like as a CEO? And I know in between gigs, we talked in the first conversation about getting bored, right? Spending three weeks like reorganizing your garage or doing something so that the ideas that are not obvious might make an appearance, right? And you could have insights and we we spent quite a bit chatting about that.

你个人最终是怎么做的，或者作为 CEO 你是怎么做的？所以，作为 CEO，甚至到现在，我每周都需要确保自己在做对身心健康有益的事，无论是早上还是下午，每周五到六天。这是第一点，对吧？还有健康饮食。对我来说，就是戒掉各种不健康的食物，戒掉酒精，戒掉各种东西。然后还要确保身体健康、心理健康。这些都是非常重要的事情。我花了很多时间在这些上面。在这段时间里，当我让大脑安静下来、跳出日常时，我就能想出好主意、解决问题。就像突然有东西蹦进我的大脑。并不是我在刻意思考，而是突然之间，不知道发生了什么，但记忆和大脑里发生了整合。我就想，‘叮！哦，这就是我们一直在想的东西。’或者从不同角度思考，获得不同视角。这差不多是每周都有的体验。我还会去长途骑行或做瑜伽，周末花三四个小时。真的就是慢慢来，没有设备，没有周围干扰，完全沉浸在正在做的活动中。那真的非常棒。

Where have you landed for yourself personally, or where did you land as a CEO? So, as a CEO and even to this day, you need for me on a weekly basis, each week was make sure you're doing the right thing for your physical and mental health, either in the mornings or afternoons or wherever it is. If five to six days a week. And for that was that's the first one, right? There's eating healthy, right? So, for me there was eating healthy, so I got rid of all kinds of bad foods. I got rid of alcohol. I got rid of all kinds of stuff. And then there was making sure you're physically fit, making sure you're mentally fit. Those are really important things to do. And you spend your time spend a lot of time doing those. And during that time, I was able to come up with great ideas and solve problems when I was quietening my brain and getting out of it. It was just like all of a sudden things popped in my brain. It's not that I was thinking about it. It was like, all of a sudden, I don't know what happened, but consolidation happened in my memory in my brain. I went, 'Ding! Oh, that's what we've been thinking about.' Or thought about it differently, different perspective. So, that was kind of on a weekly basis. I would also go for a long bike ride or yoga or whatever. And this was three or four hours on the weekends. Really just taking my time. No devices, nothing around. Just totally being absorbed in whatever activity I was doing. And that was really really great.

现在，从每周扩展到更接近一年的维度。那就是确保去度假，真正远离日常纷扰，把缰绳交给我信任的人。我的下属们总是抬头看我，心里想，‘哦，我肯定能做得更好。为什么托尼这么想？为什么他这样管理我们？’我确信有很多我没听到的幕后故事，但他们肯定在议论。每个人都会议论自己的经理或领导。所以我就想，‘好吧，我要把糖果店的钥匙交给团队里的一个人。’每次都是不同的人。我会说，‘好了，现在你来坐这把椅子。你从我的视角来看，试着用那种特别的方式管理和领导。’对我来说，这总是一种谦卑的体验，一方面因为他们接过了担子，另一方面他们会回来问各种问题。所以这是一个很好的训练场，让他们理解坐在那个位置是什么感觉，以及领导者如何通过亲力亲为来帮助团队。然后突然之间，角色互换，双方对彼此的责任有了更多的同理心。

Now, let's move out to more like a year kind of area from the week. And that made sure going on vacation, getting out of the fray every day when you're on vacation, really taking a vacation, and turning over the reins to people I trusted. So, people who reported to me, you know, they always look up and they go, 'Oh, you know, I'm sure that you know, they didn't say this to me. But they're you know, in the back chart, 'Oh, I could always be better. Why did Tony think of it this way? And why did he manage us this way?' And I'm sure there's all kinds of back stories that I didn't hear about, but I'm sure they're talk. You know, everyone talks about their manager or leader or whatever. So, I was like, 'Okay. Well, I'm going to just hand over the keys to the candy store to one person on my team.' And it would be a different person each time. And I would like, 'Okay. Now you get to sit in the chair. You get to see from my perspective and try to manage and lead, right? In that special way.' And to me, it was always a kind of a humbling experience both for me, because they would take it on. And two, they would come back and ask all kinds of questions, right? And so, it was a great training ground so they could understand how it is to sit in that seat and help the team in the way that a leader can by doing it themselves. And then all of a sudden, the tables turned and there was more empathy both ways to each other's responsibilities.

我们会在很多不同层面上讨论同理心。比如，一个好故事本身就是一种同理心的行为。我认为你是一位讲故事的大师，所以我们回头再聊这个。但首先我想问一个完全自私的问题。好吧。我觉得这个播客整体上就很自私，因为我喜欢做。但说到为工作拼命，你在另一章里提到了“断点”。我想问你一个非常具体的问题，关于身兼多职的员工的倦怠。我给你一个非常具体的例子。我的团队非常小，只有两名全职员工，负责所有事情。未来可能会扩大，但我还不清楚如何正确扩张，因为我收到了很多相互矛盾的建议。一方面，有一个人负责播客和编辑工作，他们就像这些特定角色的总经理，有非常具体的职责，并且有很多明显的胜利，所以他们得到了很多正面反馈。而另一个员工更像是行政助理、幕僚长，未来可能更多是幕僚长的角色。他们处理各种杂务，倦怠的可能性很高。当然，我也需要当面做得更好。但他们能获得的明显胜利比编辑或产品管理角色要少。你过去是如何处理这种情况的，无论是为自己还是为担任行政支持等广泛角色的人？你有什么想法可以分享吗？你的经验比我多得多。

We're going to talk quite a bit about empathy on I think it in number of different capacities. For instance, a good story being an act of empathy. And I do consider you a master storyteller. So, we're going to come back to that. But I want to ask you a completely self-serving question first. Okay. All right. So, where I I just I suppose the podcast in general is pretty self-serving cuz I enjoy doing it. But talking about like killing yourself for work, you have another chapter on break points. I'd love to ask you a super specific question. And it's related to burnout for employees who have many hats to wear. And I'll give you a very specific example. So, I have very small team. And I just be curious to know how you might think through this, or how you have seen it handled or handled it in the past. And I currently have two full-time employees. That's it. And that's for everything. And that will probably expand in the near future, but I'm not quite clear how to properly expand it, cuz I've got a lot of conflicting advice. So, on one hand, I have someone who handles say the podcast, and for lack of better term, editorial. They're like the general manager of these very specific roles that have very specific responsibilities. And there are a fair number of wins built into this for them. So, they get a good amount of positive reinforcement. And then the other employee is sort of executive assistant, chief of staff, probably in the future more of chief of staff role. And they're handling so many different miscellaneous responsibilities that the potential for burnout seems to be quite high. So, right. And they also get and I need to be better at doing this in person, of course. But they have fewer kind of wins to chalk up that are obvious that someone say on the editorial side would have. Or in any of like maybe a product management role where there are launches and so on. How have you handled this in the past for yourself, for someone who's in like an admin support kind of broad role? Do you have any thoughts that you can share? You've had so many more reps than I have.

嗯，你知道，小团队很有挑战性，对吧？就像你说的，你必须身兼多职。我们在 Future Shape 也是一个小团队，已经这样运营了五六年了。所以我们处理同样的事情，至少在小团队方面是类似的。我认为归根结底，第一点就是你说的“胜利”。我们来谈谈胜利。某些人有他们产出的重大成果，他们能感受到。对于更偏向日常运营的人，第一件事通常是，当他们处于这些角色时，他们喜欢这些角色。这就是他们想要的。这是第一点。所以他们自然习惯于此，并且觉得自己擅长。对我来说最重要的一点就是经常说谢谢，并且认可哪怕很小的事情。认可他们正在经历很多，我知道有很多事情，很多不同的角色。我能帮忙确定优先级吗？有什么可以优先处理？有什么可以从清单上暂时移除，帮助他们度过一天？有没有更好的工具？你有没有其他建议来提升我们的能力，让你拥有其他超能力，从而完成更多事情，或者去掉那些不必要的事情？所以首先是感谢，哪怕是最小的事情。第二点是真正讨论工具、流程和管理的优先级。在某个时候，你必须增加人手，对吧？你不想加太多人，但要加得恰到好处。

Well, you know, small teams are challenging, right? As you say, there's you have to wear a lot of different hats. And we have a small team at Future Shape as well. And so we've been working on that for, you know, we're working that way for 5 6 years now. So we deal with the same things, similar things at least with a small team. And I think it really boils down to me to well, one is as you say the wins. Let's talk about the wins. Certain people have certain things that have big they produce or what have you and they can feel that. For people who are kind of more the day-to-day, number one is typically when they're in those roles, they like those roles. That's what they want to be in. Okay, that's the first thing. So that's what they naturally are accustomed to and that's what they feel good at. The biggest one for me is just saying thank you a lot and acknowledging even the little stuff. Acknowledging that yes, you're going through I know there's so many things, so many different hats you're wearing, what have you. Can I help with prioritization? Is there something we can prioritize? Is there something we can remove from that list at least temporarily to help you make get through the day? Are there better tools we can get? Are there any other suggestions that you might have for us to upgrade our capabilities to allow you to have other superpowers so you can get more things done or the things that just none and unnecessary? So it's this general it's first it's thanking for even the smallest stuff. And the second thing is really talking about tools, processes, prioritization of managing. And at some point, you have to add people, right? You don't want to add too many people, but you want to add in the right amount.

当你开始作为领导者理解优先级和哪些事情被遗漏时，要么它们真的不需要做，要么它们真的需要做，你就得开始把它们整合到一个新角色中。对吧？

And as you start, you as the leader start to understand the prioritizations and what's falling off. Either they don't really need to be done or they really need to be done and you have to start bundling that into a new role. Right?

另一件事是确保你定期休息，因为做播客，我们知道，非常耗时。总是有很多事情发生。每隔一段时间就彻底关闭两周，每个人都停工。对吧？他们都离开了。我一直想做这样一件事：电子邮件客户端，无论是发送还是接收邮件，都真正离线。这样邮件就会在服务器上打包缓冲，只在特定时间段开启。我认为这对公司来说是一个很好的下一代产品，可以提供给员工，真正围绕通信来安排工作时间。所以，如果你能找到时间让每个人都远离日常事务，那是另一种真正奖励团队并确保他们也能真正休假的方式。

The other one is making sure that you're taking regular breaks because podcasting, as we know, is really time-consuming. There's a lot happening all the time. And just shutting down for two weeks every so often, and everybody shuts down. Right? And they all go away. I've always wanted to do this thing where email clients, the sending of email and even the receiving of email would actually go offline. So it would just be bundled and buffered in the server and it would only turn on for certain hours. I thought that was going to be a nice next-generation kind of thing for companies to offer to their employees, which was really work time around the communications thing. And so if you can find a time to take everybody away from the day-to-day, that is another way to really reward the team and make sure that they actually have the time off as well.

是的，当然。如果你不介意，我想再花几分钟谈谈这个，因为我的朋友们经常问我这个问题，我相信我们也有共同认识的人，我就不点名了，他们向我寻求帮助，因为我做过很多实验。但当你有一个以上的人担任，我们姑且称之为支持角色，他们身兼多职时，你发现什么样的分工有效？这可能是十年前的事，也可能是今天，但当人们真的处理很多不同的任务时，如果出现一个杂项新任务，他们往往是第一个处理的人。你看到什么样的分工有效或无效？

Yeah, definitely. If you don't mind, I'd love to just spend a few more minutes on this because I get asked all the time by friends of mine, people I'm sure we would know in common also, I'm not going to call them out, who ask me for help with this because I have done a lot of experiments. But when you have had more than one person in a, let's just call it support role where they wear many hats, what type of division of labor have you found to work? This could be from 10 years ago, it could be today, but when people are really handling a lot of different tasks and if a miscellaneous new task pops up, they tend to be the first person in line to handle that. What type of division of labor have you seen work or not work?

这真的取决于人，尤其是在小团队中。这完全取决于你的团队喜欢什么。所以要么是时间或任务共享，要么是时间或任务分离。明白吗？所以可能有两个人在一个盒子里处理你所有的行政事务和所有这些小事。这两个人真的很喜欢一起工作，不管他们是谁，他们知道如何在彼此之间自我管理。他们看起来像一个人，尽管是两个人，他们可以全天候管理，或者，你知道，取决于人们什么时候有个人时间等等。所以有那种任务共享/时间共享。这可以运作得很好，但这些人必须相处融洽，并且他们说自己想这样做。对吧。然后是另一种，即任务分离，这真的是，你知道，你喜欢的。好吧，有你的旅行日程，或者你的日历，或者做播客简报，或者财务，或者报告，等等。然后让人们分别负责这些事情，并确保，对我来说，我总是努力确保在小团队中有积极主动的人，这样他们就能一起工作。然后我只有在出现优先级问题或谁做什么的小流程时才介入，因为我希望他们自我管理。我管理过很多团队，说实话，我宁愿不管理人。我宁愿做导师，提供建议。但如果你需要我管理，我很乐意去做。但通常最好管理的人，如果他们积极主动，性格和我们相似，他们喜欢自我管理，也喜欢在彼此之间管理。然后我告诉他们，好吧，你想做什么？告诉我你想做什么，如果这对你有效，而且我认为对我有效，那我们就继续，尝试一下，然后调整。所以没有真正的规则。这真的取决于人，绝对是人。然后当你超过，如果你是一个小团队的领导者，你超过 12 或 13 个人时，第一个转折点就开始出现了，就像你在书中认识到的那样。在不同团队规模下存在这些转折点。那时就会有更多的专业化和更多的管理。如果你只想做一个把任务委派给所有人的领导者，并且有一个参谋长，那又是另一回事了。但我喜欢保持非常扁平化，让每个人都学会如何一起工作，如何一起沟通，读懂彼此的暗示，如果你懂我的意思，并且积极主动，因为他们知道你知道如何工作。所以这是我的偏好。

It really boils down to the people, especially in small teams. It all really depends on what your team likes. So there is either time or task sharing, or there is time or task separation. Okay? So there could be two in a box for handling all of your exec and all of these little things. And the two people really love working together, whoever they are, and they know how to self-manage between them. They look like one person even though they're two people, and they can manage around the clock or, you know, depending on when people have personal time or what have you. So there's that kind of task sharing slash time sharing. And that can work really well, but those people have to get along and they say they want to do that. Right. Then there's the other one, which is task separation, which is really, you know, what you like. Okay, there's your travel schedule or there's your calendar or there's doing briefs for a podcast or finances or reports or whatever those are. And then just getting people into each of those things and then making sure that, to me, I always try to make sure I have proactive people on the team when it's a small team so that they're working together. And then I only insert when there's either a prioritization thing or a little process of who does what because I want them to self-manage. I've managed so many teams, I'd rather not manage people, to tell you the truth. I'd rather mentor and be there as an advice. But if you need me to manage, I'll happily do it. But typically the best people to manage, if they're proactive and they're similar to our kind of character, they like to manage themselves and they like to manage between each other. And then I tell them, well, what do you want to do? Just tell me what you want to do and if that works for you and I think it'll work for me, then we go on and we try that and then we modulate. So there's no real rules. It really boils down to the people, absolutely the people. And then when you get past, if you're one leader in a small team, you get past 12 or 13 people, that's when the first breakpoint really starts to happen, like you recognize in the book. Like there's those breakpoints at different team sizes. It becomes that where there's even more specialization and more management. If you want to just be a leader that's delegating to everyone and there's a chief of staff, well, that's a different story. But I like to keep it very flat, get everyone to learn how to work together, how to communicate together, read each other's tea leaves, if you know what I mean, and be proactive because they know you know how to work. So that's my preference.

谢谢你花时间谈这个。

Thank you for spending some time on this.

没问题。希望能帮上忙。

No problem. Hopefully it helps.

这很有帮助，而且对我来说非常切合实际。写下职位描述，写下角色和任务，对他们应该具体的事情非常非常具体，其他事情就像，这是我们工作的一般池子，然后就像一个摸彩袋，你可以把它们分给别人，或者他们可以直接跳进去拿。但是，是的，即使你很小，也要写下来。因为一旦你写下来，你知道，它就可见了，你会想，等等，这看起来太长了。他们做的事情太多了。然后你可以进行讨论。你知道，我们都不希望给团队增加更多人，因为我们觉得，精干更好，但某种程度上你是在互相消耗，你知道，因为你试图做太多。所以要么少做，要么增加能力和人手。

It is helpful and this is very current for me. And write down job descriptions, write down roles and tasks, and be very, very specific on the things that they should be specific on, and other things that are like, these are the general pool of things that we work on, and then it's a grab bag and you can give them out to people or they can just jump in and take them. But yeah, even though you might be small, write it down. Because once you write it down, and you know this, it's visible and you go, wait a second, that seems too long. That's too many things they're doing. And then you can have a discussion. And you know, we don't all ever want to add more people to the team because we think, you know, lean and mean is better, but at some point you're killing each other, you know, because you're trying to do too much. So either do less or you got to add capabilities and hands to the situation.

是的，我认为这基本上是我现在决策树中的决策点。而且我认为，如果我可以直观地说，时间共享吸引我，因为它意味着你有冗余，即你有两个人可以处理他们职位描述下的所有各自领域。我有点担心，如果是任务分离，会出现争夺更有趣或更无趣的任务，或者如果有溢出，如果有人负责比如财务和投资以及更技术性的东西，如果他们被要求做个人事务，他们可能会犹豫，例如。但我有一个非常小的团队。我们也会轮换任务。我们也会轮换任务。所以不是每个人每半年都做同样的事情。

Yeah, I think that's sort of the decision point in the decision tree where I am right now. And I think, if I could use the word intuitively, the time sharing appeals to me because it implies that you have redundancy in so much as you have two people who can handle all of the respective buckets under their job description. I worry a little bit that if it was task separated, there would become vying for more interesting or less interesting, or if there were some overflow, if someone were handling say finance and investments and kind of more technical stuff, that if they were asked to do personal, they might balk, for instance. But I have a very small team. We also move the tasks around. We also move the tasks around. So not everyone's doing the same thing each half year.

哦，这是个好主意。所以你可以轮换，因为你希望每个人都学习不同的东西。哇，这点很好。这让每个人都保持兴趣，而不是陷入僵局。因为我不知道你有多想发展你的业务、你的平台，对吧？对我们来说，我一直很明确：我不想再增加了。我们已经有很多事要做，增加更多人只会给我和每个人增加更多负担。我们想，不，我们就保持小规模，因为我们可以。我们没有超越这个规模的业务目标。

Oh, that's a great idea. So you can move it around because you want everyone to learn each of the different things. And wow, that's a great point. That keeps it interesting for everyone, as opposed to you get locked in a rut. Because I don't know how much you want to grow your business, your platform, right? And for us, I've been very clear: I don't want to add any more. We already have too much to do, and to add more people is just going to be more things on my head and everyone else's head. We're like, no, we're going to just stay small because we can be. We don't have any business goals to grow beyond that.

所以另一件事不只是你的团队，而是要理解你需要什么、你想要什么。作为领导者，你的目标是什么？你知道，如果你想，你可以成为一切，但那会带来你需要添加的各种资源，所以要非常清醒。如果你热爱你的生活，一切都在运转，仅仅因为别人有更多粉丝或三栋房子之类的。什么对你和你的团队真正有意义，每个人在经济上是否都得到了照顾？是的。从那里开始。不要想，哦，我要征服世界。也许你确实想。但很多人不想。而且你已经很成功了。还要多成功？我不知道，这需要你来回答。

So the other thing is not just your team, but understand what you need, what you want. What are your goals as the leader for what you're trying to do? You know, you can be everything if you want to be, but then that comes with all kinds of other resources you need to add in and just be really cognizant. If you love your life and everything's working, just because somebody else has got more followers or three houses, whatever. Like what is meaningful for you and what's meaningful for your team to really be doing and is everyone financially taken care of? Yeah. Start there. Don't think about, oh, I want to conquer the world. Maybe you do. But a lot of people don't. And you're very successful as you are. How much more? I don't know, that's for you to answer.

是的，我主要只是想和我的狗在树林里徒步，和我的女朋友一起烧烤。所以，瞧！

Yeah, I mostly just want to hike in the woods with my dog and barbecue with my girlfriend. So ta-da!

嗯，那你可能需要稍微少做一点。是的。或者加一个人。

Well, then maybe you got to do just slightly less. Yeah. Or add one person.

我想你和我有很多共同的兴趣，我们稍后会讨论。让我问问你关于 Future Shape，既然你有机会设计许多不同的团队，Future Shape 的人员数量和组织架构是什么样的？Future Shape 看起来怎么样？

I think you and I have a number of converging interests we're going to talk about a little bit later. Let me ask you with Future Shape, what does the head count and org chart look like within Future Shape since you've had the opportunity to kind of design many different teams? What does Future Shape look like?

Future Shape，取决于你怎么算，大约有九个人。当你把所有的会计和其他部分都算进去，大约九到十个人，他们分布在西海岸和法国这里。所以我们两边都有。但说实话，Future Shape 是一群个体。我可能在某种程度上是领导者，但团队中的每个人都是他们带来专业知识的领导者。所以，一切都是主动的。我们都是朋友。我们都想互相帮助。我们为了一个使命在这里。所以我们希望保持扁平、精干和高效，因为至少我和其他几个人在团队里的原因是我们不需要在公司工作。我们不需要在更高度结构化的环境中工作。我们是专业的成年人。我们都能一起工作，我们只想在合理的范围内做真正伟大的事情，同时拥有美好的生活。显然，有高峰和低谷，但现在因为这本书，目前非常忙碌。但我确实知道那种感觉。是的，人们现在在熬夜。但通常不是那样的。我们努力确保不是那样。你知道，即使我们有两个不同的时区，我们非常尊重彼此的时区，即使我们在旅行时也是如此。所以，好的一面是因为我们在大西洋两岸都有团队，只有某些时间窗口我们可以一起工作。所以，这是一个很好的自我限制功能。所以，我觉得这些事情非常有趣。另一个自我限制因素是因为我们是投资者，我们只受限于我们自己的家族资金。我们没有有限合伙人，所以我们不会总是追逐下一个十亿或二十亿的基金。所以，我们也有内部压力，那就是我们只用自己的资本，对吧？所以，我们必须管理这个投资组合。所以我们努力确保我们在时间和资源上有限制，这样就不会让我们变得太大。就像水族馆，鱼在水族馆里。它长到水族馆的大小。所以我努力确保我们施加这些限制，团队规模，我们做多少，这些东西，以确保我们不会溢出。如果我们溢出了，我们就说，“好的，我们要少做。”你知道，这很难。你总是想做得更多，因为你看到很多有趣的事情。你看到很多不可思议的团队，但你不可能全部做到。你必须说不。我想我们在上次播客中讨论过，经常说不。所以，真的，你的使命是什么？你的目标是什么？个人目标以及团队目标。我的意思是，确保它们都一致。

Future Shape, depending on how you count, is around nine people. When you factor in all of the accounting and all of the other pieces, about nine to 10 people and they're both on the West Coast and also here in France. So we have them on both sides. But truthfully, Future Shape is a set of individuals. I might be a leader in a way, but everyone on the team is a leader for the expertise they bring. And so, it's all proactive. We're all friends. We all want to help each other. We're here for a mission. And so, we want to keep it flat, lean and mean because the reason why at least I am and a couple other people are on the team is we don't need to work in a corporation. We don't need to work in something much more highly structured. We are professional adults. We can all work together and we just want to do really great stuff within reason while having great lives. Obviously, there's peaks and valleys and all that stuff, but like now with the book, it's very peaky right now. But I do know that feeling. Yeah, people are burning the midnight oil now. But typically it's not like that. And we try to make sure it isn't like that. You know, even though we have two different time zones, we're very respectful of each other's time zones even when we're traveling, these kinds of things. So, the nice thing is because we have the teams on both sides of the Atlantic, there are only windows of time when we can each be working together. And so, it's a great self-limiting function. So, I find these kinds of things really interesting. The other self-limiter is because we're an investor, we're limited by only our family funds. We don't have LPs, so we're not always chasing the next billion-dollar fund or two-billion-dollar fund. So, we also have an internal pressure, which is we're only going to be doing our capital, right? So, we have to manage this portfolio. So, we try to make sure we have constraints on our time, on our resources such that it doesn't allow us to grow too big. So, it's like the aquarium, fish in an aquarium. It grows to the size of the aquarium. So, I try to make sure we put those constraints on it, team size, how much we're doing, those kinds of stuff to make sure we don't spill over. And if we do spill over, then we just say, "Okay, we're going to do less." You know, it's hard. You always want to do more because you see lots of interesting things. You see a lot of incredible teams, but you can't do it all. And you have to say no. And I think we discussed that on our last podcast, saying no a lot. And so, really, what's your mission? What are your goals? Personal and also the team's goals. I mean, make sure that it's all aligned.

你能简要描述一下 Future Shape 的使命吗？然后如果你愿意，你介意描述一下你们有的固定会议吗，比如一对一或全员会议，如果有的话，这些会议的节奏是什么样的？

Could you just describe in brief the mission of Future Shape and then if you're open to it, would you mind describing the set meetings that you have in terms of whether it's one-on-ones or all-team meetings, like what the cadence of set meetings looks like if they exist?

我们的心跳。是的。那是书中的一章，心跳。所以，对于我们的团队，再次强调，我们是导师。我们自称有钱的导师。我们不是那种拿第三方资金并代表他们投资、必须担心有限合伙人回报的风险投资。我们也不是慈善机构，所以我们也不是随便送钱。有时感觉像那样，因为我们确实有失败之类的。我们的投资组合中，70% 到 80% 在财务结果上会是失败或持平，但另外 20% 或 25% 可能非常惊人。所以，这大致就是我们所处的位置。但说到我们真正热衷的，我们的使命，我们的使命是将我们的网络和专业知识部署到那些做非常困难、颠覆性、通常是深度技术的公司中，这些公司可以颠覆某个行业。这要么是环境问题，要么是社会问题，我们想解决的问题，要么是健康问题。所以，实际上是地球、社会或个人健康。这就是我们关注的，我们与地球上一些最优秀的企业家合作，试图以大的方式提供帮助。我们不投资销售技术、媒体技术、游戏。我们不碰那些。营销或广告技术。我们关心做那些大多数人、大多数投资者会回避的事情。那些不流行的事情，不像我们听到的元宇宙之类的。不，我们不追逐那些趋势。通常，我们在趋势之前。所以，在趋势发生之前，我们很早就介入，比如我们做气候投资已经有一段时间了。那时一片寂静。人们说，“你们疯了。你们投资这些东西干什么？”2008 年绿色科技崩盘。它永远不会好转。你为什么花这么多时间，托尼？新冠疫情来袭，然后突然人们开始改变他们的优先事项，无论是投资人士自己，还是他们的有限合伙人和家族办公室开始问，“我们在气候变化方面有什么？外面有什么？”现在他们开始给我打电话。他们说，“等等，你在这方面已经有一段时间了。你在做什么？有哪些酷公司？我们应该投资什么？”所以，通常，我们领先于潮流。

Our heartbeats. Yeah. That's a chapter in the book, heartbeats. So, for our team, again, this is not we are mentors. We call ourselves mentors with money. We're not a VC who takes third-party money and invests it on behalf and have to worry about returns for LPs or limited partners. We are not philanthropic, so we're not just giving away money either. It sometimes feels like that because we do have failures and stuff like that. We still have a portfolio that between 70 and 80% of the portfolio will be a failure or a push, in terms of the financial outcome, but the other 20% or 25% could be really dramatic. So, that's kind of the framing of where we're at. But to talk about what we're really passionate about, our mission, our mission is to deploy our network, our expertise into these companies doing really hard, disruptive, typically deep technology companies who can be disruptive to a given industry. And that is either in the environment, it's either societal issues, problems we want to solve, or health issues. So, really the planet, society, or individual health. So, that's what we're focused on and we get to work with some of the best entrepreneurs on the planet trying to help in a big way. We don't invest in sales technology or media technology, gaming. We don't do that. Marketing or ad technology. We care about doing the things that most people, most investors will shy away from. Things that are not in vogue, things that are not like we hear about metaverse or whatever, that kind of stuff. No, we don't play those trends. Typically, we're pre-trend. So, before the trend happens, we're early and like we've been doing the climate investing for a while now. And it was crickets. People are like, "You guys are crazy. What are you investing in this stuff?" We had 2008 with the greentech implosion. It's never going to turn. Why are you spending all this time, Tony? COVID hits, then all of a sudden people start changing their priorities, whether that's the investment people themselves or their limited partners and family offices are starting to go, "Well, what do we have in climate change? What's out there?" And now they're starting to call me. They're going, "Wait a second, you've been in this a while. What are you working on? What are the cool companies? What should we be investing in?" So, typically, we are ahead of the curve.

有时会感到孤独，但现在终于在我们投资的许多不同方面显现出来了。就像，“好吧，终于天时地利人和了。”但你知道，有些年你只是坐在那里自省，想着，“这能成吗？这会不会只是个白日梦？”我们知道问题存在。世界什么时候才能意识到它们？因为我们正在解决痛点。我们不是在轻浮地做有趣的事。我们认为自己在做非常重要的事。这就是驱动我们团队的动力。这就是驱动我们的动力。至于我们的日常工作方式，我们在疫情前就已经是虚拟团队了。我们是虚拟团队。现在甚至更虚拟了，但在疫情前，我们就是虚拟的。我们现在有一个实体办公室。我们曾有两个实体办公室。但即便如此，我们也是虚拟的。所以，当疫情来袭时，我们都问，“我们该怎么办？”我们想，“嗯，就是过去两年一直在做的事。”所以，一切顺利。我们总是在消息应用上来回沟通。但我们定期，每周或每两周，召开一次全员会议。就是全员会议。我们列出工作清单，汇报进展，讲些趣事，保持团队精神。这非常务实。所有有趣的事都发生在群聊里，我们互相分享帖子、趣事之类的。然后我们几乎每天都会一对一或一对二地交谈。或者我们与投资组合公司开电话会议，指导他们的CEO等等。所以，我们可以自由选择自己的日程。这真的不同于很多其他公司，我们处在一个特殊的领域。所以我们努力确保生活和使命在我们所做的工作中是最重要的。

It can be lonely at times, but now it's finally hitting in many of our different aspects of what we invest in. And it's like, "Okay, finally it was right place, right time." But you know, there are years when you're just sitting there navel-gazing going, "Is this going to go? Is this just a pipe dream?" We know that there are problems. When is the world going to wake up to them because we're solving pains. We're not just doing things frivolously and doing fun things. We think we're doing very important things. And that's what drives our team. That's what drives us. Now, as far as how we work our day-to-day, we were virtual well before COVID. We are a virtual team. We're even more virtual now, but before COVID, we were virtual. We have one physical office now. We had two physical offices. But even then, we were virtual. So, when COVID hit, we all said, "What do we do?" We're like, "Well, what we've been doing for the last 2 years." So, that went really well. We're always on the messaging apps going back and forth. But we have regularly either every week or every other week an all-team meeting. Just an all-team meeting. We go down, here's our work list, here's what's going on, funny stories, just keeping that team esprit de corps alive and going. It's very operational. All the fun stuff happens in our group chats where we're sending each other posts about this or funny stories or what have you. And then we're probably talking to each other almost every day one-on-one or one-on-two or something like that. Or we have conference calls with our portfolio companies who are mentoring our CEOs or what have you. So, we get to pick and choose our schedules. And so, that's really unlike a lot of other companies in other businesses, we're in a special space. So, we try to make sure our lives and our mission are paramount in the work that we do.

这可能是个有点琐碎的战术问题，但我知道有些公司用 Slack。我知道有些公司用很多不同的工具。最近，有些开始用 Telegram。出于好奇，你们用什么群聊？

This is going to be maybe a mundane tactical question, but I know companies that use Slack. I know companies that use many different tools. Most recently, some have started using Telegram. What do you use for group chat out of curiosity?

所以，有趣的是，我们在 WhatsApp 和 Skype 之间切换。真的。

So, interestingly enough, we go between WhatsApp and we go between of all things Skype. No kidding.

为什么？好吧，多说点。

Why? Okay, tell me more.

嗯，我们多年前在所有这些其他东西出现之前就开始用 Skype 了。而且它管用。可能不是最现代的，但管用。我们在那个群聊中遇到的问题比任何其他工具都少。我不知道为什么。也许是因为用 Skype 的人很少，所以噪音也少。所以它有点像我们自己的消息客户端，没有朋友和家人。因为如果你用 WhatsApp，我有朋友、家人，各种乱七八糟的。很少有人用 Skype。所以它成了我们自己的消息应用。完全是我们的东西。有点像 Slack 频道，但不是频道。是的。所以我们是在 Slack 之前就用了。很清爽。

Well, we started on Skype years ago before all of this other stuff. And it works. It's maybe not the most modern, but it works. We have had more or less fewer issues with that group chat than anything else. I don't know why. Maybe we also have less noise in it because very few people use Skype. So, it's kind of like our own messaging client without all of our friends and family in it. Because if you're on WhatsApp, I got friends, family, got all kinds of crazy. Very few people use Skype. So, we get it's kind of our own messaging app. It's all our own thing. It's kind of like a Slack channel without being a channel. Yeah. So, we were pre-Slack. Uncluttered.

那么，让我问一个我完全不懂的问题，但我很想听你展开讲讲，或者解释一下它是什么，如果你能花一分钟的话。那就是可编程电气化。我读到过，至少到 2020 年你对此都很感兴趣。我不知道现在有没有变化，但你能说说它是什么，以及你关注的一些领域吗？如果你愿意提一些前沿方向的话。

So, let me ask you about something I know absolutely nothing about, but I would love to hear you expand or just explain what it is if you're able to take a minute. And that is programmable electrification. So, I've read this is something that you have been interested in at least as recently as 2020. I don't know if that has changed, but could you speak to what that is and some of the areas that you're focused on if you're open to mentioning them that are pre-trend?

当然。我认为可编程电气化，或者说真正的万物电气化，也包括万物无线化。从能源最初产生的地方，经过输电线路，再到消耗的地方，中间有各种各样的东西。无线也一样。中间或末端有各种消耗、产生低效的东西。所以我们审视整个价值链和系统，寻找那些系统中需要根本改变以提高效率的地方。今天，作为一个电气工程师，世界上产生的所有能源中，60% 都因低效而损失。哇。它甚至没有做功。想象一下，如果我们节省了那些能源，气候危机会怎样。即使只节省那 60% 的一半，比如 30%，我们仍然可以过现在的生活，而不会有所有这些问题，因为我们只是在浪费。对我来说，浪费是可怕的。我厌恶浪费。我痛恨浪费。每天当我扔垃圾时，我会想，“好吧，这是有机的。我知道它该去哪，但这个去哪？那个去哪？”这让我抓狂。所以当我看到 60% 的能源因损耗而消失时，我就想，“我们该从哪里入手？”其中一个方向是更好的电机，电动机。不仅限于汽车，还包括电器、制造业，很多地方都用电机。我们浪费了大量能源。你天花板上的风扇。那里浪费了大量能源。所以我们投资了一家公司叫 TurnTide。我们在它叫 TurnTide 之前就投资了。我们已经投资了六、七、八年了。他们在制造下一代电机。那种电机效率更高，比如高出 10% 到 15%，但它使用了全新的软硬件技术，并且去掉了稀土磁铁，也就是我们一直在谈论的供应链问题。所以这是一种非常非常不同的电机，效率高得多，在某些方面成本略高，但会随着时间下降。但这是对电机的巨大革新，我们必须参与，因为电机中的能量损失非常高，而且它们无处不在。所以我们要去解决它。我们投资的另一家公司叫 MenloMicro。MenloMicro 专注于电力的分配。今天，我们有所谓的继电器。你可能听说过。你可能在恒温器和各种电器中听到过咔哒咔哒的声音。那些自 1880 年代或 1850 年代以来就没有创新过。电磁继电器和固态继电器真的没有创新。它们还是老样子，但存在各种低效或可靠性问题。从来没有过那样的时刻。就像真空管变成晶体管，突然间世界上所有东西都变了。所以，真空管到晶体管的时刻即将在继电器领域发生。而 MenloMicro 正在实现它。

Sure. I think programmable electrification or truly the electrification of everything, which also includes the wireless of everything. If you go all the way from the place where you first start where energy is produced or created and it goes through the transmission lines or wherever it is and then where it's consumed, there's all kinds of things. The same thing goes with wireless. There's all kinds of things in the middle or at the ends that are consuming, generating inefficiencies and that stuff. So, we look across these entire value chains and these systems and we look at fundamental things that need to change in those systems to be able to make them more efficient. So, today, you know, this is an electrical engineer, but all energy in the world today that is created, 60% of that, 60, is lost in inefficiencies. Wow. It doesn't even do work. So, just imagine what our climate crisis would be if we just saved that energy. If we saved even half of that 60%, like 30%, we could still live the life we're leading without all of these problems we have because we're just throwing it away. We're just being wasteful. To me, waste is horrid. I abhor waste. I loathe waste. When I go to the trash can each day, I'm like, "Okay, this is organic. I know where that could go, but where is this thing going? Where is that thing going?" And it drives me nuts. And so, when I see something like 60% of energy goes away in losses, I'm like, "Where can we go target that?" So, one thing in this is better motors, electric motors. And that's from not just cars, but all the way to electric appliances, everything that uses motors, manufacturing, so many things use motors. And we're just throwing away tons and tons of energy there. Fans on your ceiling. Tons and tons of energy there. So, one company that we invested in is TurnTide. And we've been there well before they were named TurnTide. We've been in, I don't know, six, seven, eight years now. They're making a next generation motor. And that motor can be much more efficient, like 10%, 15% more percent efficient, but it uses fundamentally new software and hardware technology and gets rid of rare earth magnets, all the things that we keep talking about with supply chain. So, it's a very, very different motor, much higher efficiency, slightly higher cost in certain regards, but that'll come down over time. But, it's such a dramatic reinvention of the motor that we had to be in it because energy losses in motors is just very high, and they're used everywhere. So, let's go after that. Another company that we're in is called MenloMicro. MenloMicro's all about the distribution of electricity from place to place. Today, we have things that are called relays. You probably heard of them. You probably heard of click click click click in thermostats and various appliances or whatever. Those have not been innovated since the 1880s, I think it was, or 1850s. Electromagnetic relays and solid state relays have really not been innovated. They're the same thing, but they have all kinds of inefficiencies or reliability problems. There's been no moment. The same as like when the vacuum tube became a transistor, and all of a sudden all of these things changed in the world. So, that vacuum tube to transistor moment is now about to happen in relays. And it's happening by MenloMicro.

所以，就是这些微机电系统（MEMS）开关。它们是硅基开关，开关速度非常快，非常可靠，可以运行数十亿次，并且能够取代所有这些老旧技术。如今，每年销量超过 200 亿个。有了这个，我们可以大大提高能源效率，从输电线路、汽车中的问题、世界上所有的交通信号灯、你家里的照明或调光、风扇等等方面入手。所以，这是另一个进入电力系统、试图发现那些低效之处并消除浪费的例子。对我来说，这非常有益。以至于 Menlo 拥有非常长的客户名单，因为这些工程师多年来一直使用过时的技术。现在，突然之间，他们说，‘终于找到了圣杯。’然后他们纷纷投入。举一个例子，印度全国 8% 的电力用于家中的吊扇。8% 的能源消耗。吊扇。是的。如果我们在墙壁开关中放入我们的一个开关，就可以节省 50% 的电力。所以，我们可以将国家能源消耗从 8% 降到 4%。仅仅是因为浪费。它变成了热量。这个小小的开关一点也不贵，你会想，‘天哪，我们还能在其他国家做类似的事情吗？’我们都有低效之处。不仅仅是印度。还有美国、欧洲。无处不在。当我们拥有这些根本性的新事物时，我们还能做什么？它们不像元宇宙或 NFT 那样酷炫和时髦。这才是真正重要的东西。这就是我们每天起床、去工作、享受这种使命的原因，找到那些需要六、七、八、十年才能实现的事情，但一旦实现，它们就会在全球范围内带来变革。

And so, it's these little MEMS switches. They're silicon switches, and they switch very fast, very reliably, billions of times, and can replace all of these old technologies. 20 billion or more are sold a year today. And with this, we can get much better energy efficiency in getting it out of the transmission lines, out of the problems in the cars, in all the traffic signals in the world, in how you do your lighting in your houses or dimming or fans and all those kinds of things. So, that's another example of this kind of getting into the electricity system and trying to find those inefficiencies and get rid of that waste. And so, to me, this is incredibly beneficial. It's so much so that Menlo has an incredibly long set of customers because these engineers have been working for years with antiquated technology. Now, all of a sudden, they said, 'Finally, the holy grail.' And they're diving in. And to give one example, the country of India, 8% of all of their electricity today is used by ceiling fans in homes. 8% of energy consumption. Ceiling fans. Yes. If you put our one switch in just in the wall switch, we can save 50% of that. So, we can go down from 8% of the country's energy consumption down to 4%. Just because they're waste. It turns into heat. If this one little switch that's not very expensive at all, like, you're like, 'Oh my god, what other things can we do like that with all kinds of other countries who have these kinds of...' We all have the inefficiencies. It's not just India. It's the US. It's Europe. It's everywhere. What else can we do when we have these fundamentally new things that are not, you know, cool and of the moment like a metaverse or NFT or something. This is the stuff that matters. That's why we get up every day and go to work and have a great time with this kind of mission, finding these people doing these kinds of things that take six, seven, eight, 10 years to actually realize, but once they're there, they're transformative everywhere in the world.

嗯。让我们回到讲故事这个话题。我们从头到尾都在听你讲故事，但我想读一下书中截取的两句话。‘当然，整章内容不止这些，但故事不是为了销售你的产品而存在的。它是为了帮助你定义产品。’第二句话还有更多内容，但你能详细说明一下吗？因为我认为这是一个非常引人入胜且极其重要的观点。

Mhm. Let's return to storytelling. We've been listening to storytelling from start to finish, but I want to read a truncated two sentences from the book. 'And there's more to, of course, this entire chapter, but the story doesn't exist to sell your product. It's there to help you define it.' And there's more on that second sentence, but could you elaborate on this, please? Because I think this is a really fascinating and deeply important point.

所以，故事不是为了销售你的产品而存在的，对吧？很多人做了一些东西，然后就想，‘好吧，我们该编什么故事？怎么推销？怎么恰当地包装以便销售？’但如果我们重新定义它，故事是为了帮助你定义产品。这是什么意思？你能举个例子吗？你正好说到了点子上。我从小学习的方式是，你创造一些你认为有意义的东西，然后在最后说，‘我们现在要把它推向市场，我们要讲一个关于它的故事，希望这个故事能引起共鸣。希望它与产品相关。你实际上是在交付产品所能交付的东西，对吧？’然后你想，‘好吧。’如果你真的把故事提前，在你构思任何你想要构建或创造的东西时，当你真正创作那个故事时，你必须了解你的受众。你必须知道他们为什么关注，他们的问题是什么，你如何解决这些问题，以及如何让他们容易倾听和学习，对吧？并且希望提供一些工具，让他们在听完后能在日常生活中应用，这样几乎就像一种忠诚度。他们会想，‘哦，他为我做了所有这些伟大的事情。我想听更多。’所以，这不仅仅是一次性的事情，而是你正在建立的一种关系，尽管它可能始于一次交易，对吧？那么，我们如何讲述那个故事？你在解决什么痛点？为什么它重要？为什么它对个人重要？为什么可能对他们的家庭重要？为什么对他们所在的社会或居住地重要？它将如何在理性和情感上帮助他们？换句话说，是关于省钱吗？是关于节省时间吗？故事的理性部分是什么？情感部分是什么，让人说，‘哦，太酷了。我想行动起来，真正完成这笔交易，因为我真的相信它。我相信理性部分。’所以，你需要在对受众的理解、对所有变量的理解之间取得惊人的平衡，并且你需要在开始之前把它们写下来。这并不意味着在创意旅程中不能改变，但它确实有助于引导你，让你不会偏离轨道，不会只是开始构建那些只与你共鸣、而不与其他人共鸣的东西。General Magic 就是一个完美的例子。在 General Magic，我们制造了我们认为很酷的所有东西，因为我们知道那些问题将来某个时候会出现。我们将用所有这些技术服务于我们认为最酷的事情，但我们真的不清楚我们的目标是谁，为什么瞄准他们，社会是否准备好了，购买它的理性和情感原因是什么，等等。这就是 General Magic 失败的原因，因为技术甚至还没有准备好，而且市场也远远没有准备好，即使技术接近成熟。

So, the story doesn't exist to sell your product, right? So, a lot of people make something, then they're like, 'All right, what yarn do we spin? What do we pitch? How do we angle this properly so we can sell it?' But if we then reframe it, it's there to help you define it, that is the product. What does that mean? And could you give an example? You hit it right on the nose here. So, the story... What I grew up learning, which you just mentioned, is that you create something you really think is meaningful, and then at the end you go, 'We're going to market it now, and we're going to tell a story about it, and hopefully that story resonates. And hopefully it relates to the product. You're actually delivering what the product can deliver, right?' And you're like, 'Okay.' If you actually move that story to the front, while you're concepting whatever it is you're trying to build, trying to create, when you actually create that story, you have to, as you know, understand your audience. You have to understand why they're tuning in, what their problems are, how you can solve them, and how you make it easy for them to listen in and learn, right? And hopefully some tools so they can apply it in their day-to-day life after they get done, so that it's kind of almost like a loyalty thing. They're like, 'Oh, he did all these great things for me. I want to listen more.' So, it's not just a one-time thing, but it's a relationship that you're building, even though it might have started out as a transaction, right? So, how do we tell that story? What are the pains you're solving? Why does it matter? Why does it matter to the individual? Why does it matter maybe to their family? Why does it matter to their society or where they live? How is it going to help them both rationally and emotionally? In other words, is it about money savings? Is it about some time savings? What's the rational part of the story? What's the emotional part of the story to say, 'Oh, that is so cool. I want to get off my butt and actually make that transaction happen because I really believe in it. I believe in the rational part.' So, you need to have this incredible balance of understanding your audience, understanding all of these variables, and you need to write them down before you embark. Now, it doesn't mean on the creative journey, but it does help to guide you so you don't get off track, and you just start building things that resonate with you, but don't resonate with anyone else. General Magic was a perfect example of that. General Magic, we were making all the things that we thought were cool because we knew those problems would exist sometime in the future. We're going to make all of this technology in service of what we think is the coolest thing, but we really didn't have a great idea of who we are targeting, why we're targeting, was society ready for it, what were the both rational and emotional reasons for buying it, all those things. And that's why General Magic failed because the technology wasn't even ready yet, but the market was so far from being ready, even if the technology was close.

这里似乎有一种穿针引线的技巧，你不仅在构建产品时多次成功运用，在投资中也是如此……这听起来可能是一个奇怪的比喻，但我正在读一本巴里·洛佩兹写的书，叫《狼与人》。这是我最喜欢的非虚构书籍之一。它重新定义了自然写作的类型及其在复杂性、细微差别和优美散文方面的可能性。他谈到……我举了几个例子，狼群会以高速或强烈的意图朝一个非常特定的方向出发，然后在 4 天后拦截一群迁徙的驯鹿。所以，它们并不是在跟踪冰球，也不是在跟踪 2 秒后冰球明显会去的地方。在这种情况下，它们实际上是在与驯鹿会合。我用它作为一个笨拙的比喻来形容客户和客户需求，对吧？因为你谈到你在电机领域的电气化投资，时间跨度大约是 7 到 10 年。问题是已知的。嗯。我很想知道另一个例子，如果你能再举一个用故事来帮助定义产品的例子。

There seems to be a threading the needle here that you have accomplished quite a few times, not just in building, but also in investing, where... and this is going to sound like a strange comparison, but I was reading a book called Of Wolves and Men by Barry Lopez. It's one of my favorite non-fiction books. Going to redefine the genre of nature writing and what it could be just in terms of complexity and nuance and beautiful prose. And he talks about... I gave several examples of wolf packs that would set off in a very particular direction at high speed or with great intent, and then intercept a migrating caribou herd like 4 days later. So, they weren't sort of following the puck or following the action to where the puck would be in an obvious way 2 seconds hence. They were actually converging with the caribou in this case. I'm using it as a clumsy metaphor for sort of customer and customer demand, right? Because you were talking about the investments you're making in the electrification of everything in the motors, where it's sort of a 7-to-10-year time horizon. The problem is known. Mhm. And I would love to know of another example if you could give another example of using the story to help you define the product.

我想到的一个例子是史蒂夫·乔布斯发布 iPhone 时的演讲。人们说：“天哪，太厉害了，他居然没有讲稿。”而你的观点是，他当然没有讲稿，因为他一直在打磨，见一个人就练一次，就像杰米·福克斯打磨脱口秀段子一样。你能谈谈这个或其他例子吗？

One example that jumps to mind is Steve Jobs' presentation for the launch of the iPhone. People said, 'Oh my God, it's so amazing, he has no notes.' And your point was, of course he has no notes because he has been honing that with every person he met, like Jamie Foxx working on stand-up material. So could you speak to that or any other examples?

那就说说这本书本身吧。我们用了同样的工具：受众是谁？要解决什么问题？什么样的形式合适？微章节还是完整章节？故事占多少？建议占多少？工具占多少？必须找到平衡。我们其实在写书之前就写了新闻稿。早期做了原始版本，用来形成思维框架并保持方向。我们可以写书、读新闻稿或一些工具，然后回头迭代。

Well, let's talk about the book itself. We used those same tools: Who is the audience? What are we trying to solve? What's the right form factor? Micro chapters versus full chapters. How much story? How much advice? How much tools? We had to find that balance. We actually wrote the press release for the book before writing it. We did the raw versions early on to help form the mindset and stay on track. We could write the book, read the press release or some tools, then go back and iterate.

所以澄清一下：你在动笔写书之前，先写了这本书的新闻稿？

So just for clarity: you wrote the press release for the book before setting pen to paper to write the book?

完全正确。我们有一个电子表格大纲，列出了我想谈的内容，但接着我们问：“这些想法会形成什么？”这时新闻稿就诞生了。我们把它分享给竞标这本书的出版商，告诉他们：“这就是它的样子。”当时我们可能只有一两页的正文。那真的是一张白纸，一个伟大的想法浓缩在一页新闻稿里。它实际上就在书里。

Absolutely. We had an outline in a spreadsheet of things I wanted to talk about, but then we asked, 'What will these ideas form into?' That's when the press release happened. We shared it with publishers bidding on the book, saying, 'This is what it will look like.' We had maybe a page or a page and a half of prose. It was literally a blank sheet of paper with a great idea encapsulated in a one-page press release. It's actually in the book.

能透露一点吗？那篇新闻稿里有没有什么内容在后续执行中特别重要？

Can you give us a teaser? Is there anything from that press release that stood out as particularly important later in the execution?

其中一点是“盒子里的导师”。我们想把更多精力放在建议上。故事可以讲很多，但我们想要的是可用的、能带走的建议。人们很忙，不想读 40 本书再自己总结。我们想做相反的事——一本可以随时查阅的百科全书。所以我们才这么叫它。我们删减了很多故事，专注于快速、真实、可用的建议，容易消化。你可以线性阅读，也可以直接进入某个微章节。每章开头有摘要；如果吸引你，再读故事和实用细节。所有这些都来自新闻稿和我们用来保持方向的工具。

One thing was 'mentor in a box.' We wanted to spend more time on advice. There are so many stories we could tell, but we wanted usable, takeaway advice. People are busy; they don't want to read 40 books and summarize them. We wanted to be the opposite—an encyclopedia you can dip into. That's why we call it that. We trimmed a lot of stories to focus on quick, real, usable advice that's easily digestible. You can read it linearly or dive into one micro chapter. Each chapter has a summary at the beginning; if it hooks you, you read the stories and practical details. All that came from the press release and the tools we used to stay on track.

你提到了史蒂夫·乔布斯。具体问题是什么？

You mentioned Steve Jobs. What was the specific question?

这就是我学到要提前做功课的地方。史蒂夫不写新闻稿，但他会在脑子里把故事的核心参数定下来：我们要解决什么问题、对谁讲、怎么解决、为什么。然后他每天向团队或信任的人推销这个信息，一遍又一遍地打磨。等到演讲的时候，一切都很自然。产品也符合这些要求，因为开发过程中我们会做调整——可能技术达不到，或者进度有问题。他会不断修改故事，让它成为一颗晶莹剔透的宝石，解决正确的问题。当我们面临延期或功能删减时，那个故事就是指南针：“这个太重要了，我们不能丢掉它。”所以我们会推迟进度，而不是随便砍东西让故事变味。那样就失去了北极星。

That's where I got my learnings about doing this upfront. Steve didn't write a press release, but in his mind he would nail the top parameters of the story: the problems we're trying to solve, who we're talking to, how we'll solve them, why. He would then pitch that message daily to the team or trusted people, refining it over and over. By the time of the presentation, it was natural. And the product met those things because we made changes during development—maybe we couldn't get the right technology or had schedule issues. He'd keep modifying the story to make it a crystalline gem that solved the right problems. When we faced delays or feature cuts, that story was the guide: 'This is so important, we cannot lose it.' So we'd push the schedule rather than throw things out and let the story erode. You lose the lodestar.

我们突然转个弯，聊聊你书里关于“混蛋”的那一章。我记得摘要的开头是“很多人觉得我是个混蛋”。你能讲讲什么才是正确的强硬作风吗？毕竟不是所有强硬都一样。为什么很多人觉得你是混蛋，你又怎么区分可接受和不可接受的行为？

Let's do a hard left here for a second and talk about [the chapter on being an 'asshole']. I think the opening line under the summary is 'Plenty of people think I'm an asshole.' Could you explain what the right breed of assertiveness is? Not all are created equal. Why have plenty of people thought you're an asshole, and how would you delineate acceptable versus unacceptable?

这一章非常难写，我重写了七八遍才定稿，写完之后感觉像做了一次精神排毒。我内心深处知道自己是什么样的人，而且不少重要人物都跟我说过，我真的努力不做一个混蛋。但有些东西是我的底线——比如道德、伦理、价值观，或者某些产品特性必须达到一定的质量、客户体验或技术标准。你会不断推动，因为你要为客户交付。就连史蒂夫·乔布斯也被这么叫过。关键看动机。是什么驱动了那种行为？我说的是推动别人，而不是冒犯、贬低或说“你一无是处”。那些绝对不允许——不能有霸凌。但挑战别人、推动他们变得更好、让团队更好、让产品更好——这并不代表你是混蛋。这代表你在乎。我在乎到可能让人觉得像个混蛋，但那是热情和关心，是为了客户、团队、公司和使命。很多时候，混蛋行为是围绕他们自己——他们的自我和以自我为中心。你得理解为什么有人会有那种感觉。如果他们真的在贬低你、让你觉得自己渺小、踩着你来抬高自己，那绝对是混蛋。如果他们是在抠细节，确保每个人都尽力而为，而不是侮辱人，不停地问“为什么”——这就是我在书里说的“激情飓风”。当时人们可能不喜欢和他们共事，但几周、几个月、几年后他们会说：“天哪，那是一次了不起的经历。”过程很痛苦、很艰难，但他们为使命做出了最好的工作。这才是重要的。你必须区分这两者，即使外在表现可能相似。如果是为了工作和使命，而不是针对个人，那就是分界线。

This was a very hard chapter to write. It took seven or eight full rewrites to get there, and it was very cathartic. In my heart of hearts, I know who I am, and significant people have told me I really try not to be an asshole. But there are certain things core to me—ethics, morals, values, or certain product features that need to happen with a certain quality level, customer experience, or technologies. You push and push because you're trying to deliver for the customer. Even Steve Jobs was called that too. The question is motivation. What motivates that behavior? I mean pushing people, not offending, degrading, or saying 'you're worthless.' That should never be allowed—no bullying. But challenging people, pushing them to be better, the team to be better, making the product better—that doesn't make an asshole. That makes somebody who cares. I care so much it may come off as an asshole, but it's passion and caring in service of the customer, team, company, and mission. A lot of times when you see asshole behavior, it's about them—their ego and self-centeredness. You have to understand why someone might feel that way. If they're literally degrading you, making you feel less, pushing you down so they feel better, that's definitely an asshole. If they're pushing details to make sure everyone does their best without insulting, asking 'why' five times—that's what I call a 'passionate hurricane' in the book. People don't always like working with them at the time, but weeks, months, years later they say, 'My god, that was an amazing experience.' It sucked, it was hard, but they did their best work in service of the mission. That's what matters. You have to delineate the two, even if characteristics are shared. If it's about the work and the mission, not the person, that's the delineation.

对于那些好奇的人，我在我们对话开头提到的办公室里和 HR 的那一幕，就是从那一章来的。所以书里也给出了实用建议，教你如何应对那些政治手腕、马基雅维利式的伎俩。有时候这些方法不一定管用。但你必须尝试，因为有时候别人只是心情不好，或者害怕，你需要和他们建立关系。但有时候情况并非如此，如果没人能帮你，你就只能离开。

For those people wondering where I pulled out the opening salvo in the office with HR at the beginning of our conversation, that was from that chapter. So you also get practical advice on how to deal with political, Machiavellian techniques. Sometimes they don't always work. You have to try because sometimes people are just having a bad day, or they're scared, and you just have to build a relationship with them. But sometimes it isn't the case, and you just have to get away if no one can help you.

对，有时候答案就是辞职。

Yeah, sometimes the answer is quitting.

上次我们聊的时候，花了不少时间讨论塑料。你还在继续关注这个问题吗？有没有什么新的见解、发现，或者转向了其他角度来解决相同或相关的问题？

Last time we spoke, we spent quite a bit of time talking about plastics. Is this something you have continued to focus on? I'm wondering if you've had any insights, discoveries, or if you have segued to other angles on the same or related problems.

塑料问题仍然是我最关心的事。我一直在推动，这个问题不会消失。在塑料问题基本解决之前，我不会停手。但自从我们上次谈话以来，过去两三年里发生了很多事，这很好。我给你举几个例子。我不知道你能不能看到，这个瓶盖上有个香奈儿的标志，是香水瓶的盖子。这是一个塑料杯。我有一整盒各种各样的东西。这是一家北欧公司，生产完全可家庭堆肥的塑料。他们用生物材料制造可家庭堆肥的塑料，质量足以满足香奈儿这样的奢侈品牌，也能用于日常用品。如果它掉在环境里，会被土壤中的微生物吃掉然后消失。你可以把它扔进堆肥堆。这东西是真的，现在已经投产了，而两三年前还没有。它变得越来越好。这就是我们在关注的那类公司。另外，我还在参与几家公司，做“变废为宝”——把传统塑料变成财富。我现在还不能说，但大概九个月后我们会有一个非常令人兴奋的消息，可能影响很大。我还在研究电子垃圾——如何从电子垃圾和其他废物流中提取金、钯、银等矿物和元素。为什么要再去挖地球呢？电子垃圾包括手机、电脑、电视。这些元素已经被开采出来了，我们直接再利用就好。很多工作都围绕再利用，把今天的垃圾变成财富。

Plastic is still forefront of my mind. I continue to work on it. It is not going away. Until the plastic problem has been mainly solved, I'm not going to stop. But in the last 2.5 to 3 years since we last spoke, a lot has been happening, which is great. Let me give you some examples. I don't know if you can see this, but that's a Chanel logo on a cap. It's a cap for a perfume bottle. And this is a plastic cup. I have a whole box of various things. This is a company in the Nordics that makes fully home-compostable plastics. They take bio materials and create plastics that are home-compostable, with quality good enough for luxury brands like Chanel, all the way to everyday items. If it gets lost in the environment, it will be eaten by microbes in the soil and disappear. You can throw it in a compost pile. This stuff is real, now in production, and it wasn't there 2 or 3 years ago. It's gotten better and better. Those are the kind of companies we're looking at. I also have a couple of companies working on 'trash to treasure'—taking traditional plastics and turning them into treasure. I can't talk about it now, but we'll have something very exciting to announce in about 9 months, probably in a big way. I've also been looking at e-waste—how to extract minerals and elements like gold, palladium, silver from e-waste and other waste streams. Why dig up more of the earth? E-waste includes phones, computers, TVs. All those elements have already been extracted; let's just reuse them. A lot of this is about reuse, turning today's trash into treasure.

所以，塑料是一个大问题，但这不是我们唯一关注的，因为我们认为这是一个服务不足的类别，是矛尖。现在有些人正在关注它，电池回收商也开始参与，比如 Redwood Materials 之类的。随着时间的推移，这种情况会越来越多，因为从废物流中提取比从地球上提取要便宜得多，而且对环境更好。那么，你有一个小团队。嗯，我相信是非常能干、超级能干的人，但你在所谓的“气候解决方案”或“技术”范围内有一个小团队，这些技术本身就有各种吸引力，但对我们所处的环境有某种有益的影响。你如何对此施加约束？所以，你在公司其他地方已经应用了积极的约束，比如总人数和其他各种方式。你如何选择目标并确保有重点？你如何排除事情？

So, plastic is a big one, but that's not the only one that we're looking at, because we think it's an underserved category, tip of the spear. Some people are looking at it now, battery recyclers are getting into the act, like Redwood Materials, those kinds of things. There's going to be much more of this over time, because it's so much cheaper to extract from a waste stream than it is to extract from the planet. And better for the environment. So, you have a small team. Mhm. I'm sure very capable, hyper-capable people, but you have a small team within the scope of let's just call it climate solutions or technologies that have that are both attractive in and of their own right for various reasons, but have some let's just call it beneficial impact on the circumstances we find ourselves in. How do you apply constraints to that? So, you have positive constraints that you've applied elsewhere in the company in terms of total head count and various other ways that you've applied constraints. How do you choose your targets and make sure that you have a focus? How do you eliminate things?

嗯，首先，这是一个宽漏斗。所以，它真的基于：他们是否有很酷的使命？我们对这项技术好奇吗？这是重要的事情吗？这是一个非常大的市场或非常大的问题，比如解决气候危机？而且可以是任何东西。所以，不仅仅是材料、石化产品或碳捕获。我们看所有东西。因为坦率地说，归根结底，我们这样做的原因是我们热爱学习，如果你真的要解决我们面临的问题，你必须真正理解系统思维，而不仅仅是单一事物。所以我们喜欢看得广泛，非常广泛，从技术角度、价值链角度，以及区域或国家角度。所以我们看所有这些，这取决于我们有多少学习周期，以及有多少人给我们带来有趣的想法。这算是漏斗的顶部。但当我们缩小范围时，有几个因素。第一是，这能在未来 10 年内大规模部署吗？它会具有颠覆性吗？它会像我们讨论过的开关那样，从真空管到晶体管，但这个配电 MEMS 开关，它可以应用于许多事情，而且如此颠覆性，我们觉得“它必须存在”。当它具有颠覆性，而不仅仅是进化性，它会改变顶层的参与者，从根本上改变产品，为环境、客户和制造商带来三赢，那时我们看到了巨大的收益。就像我们讨论的电机一样。所以我们想要具有颠覆性、广泛影响的东西，因为这是帮助修复这个星球所需要的。我们不能只做小的，没有银弹。过去 150 年我们创造了这么多不同的系统，其中大部分甚至都没有以循环的方式考虑过，比如如何处理垃圾或如何提高效率。只是“哦，它有效”，但它只对那个业务有效，而不是对地球、对我们社会有效。所以这些是我们真正寻找的东西，这就是我们缩小漏斗的方式。所以第一点是技术是否具有颠覆性？它是否接近可市场化？你知道，它是否接近成为产品？第三点，也是我们从所有投资组合中学到的最重要的一点，是我们能否快速扩展规模？因为我们必须重启这个星球。这不仅仅是“哦，我们要在这个州或这个国家做一个行业”。当我们说塑料问题时，它是全球性的。当我们谈论能源效率低下时，它是全球性的。所以如果你有东西，我们希望看到颠覆性技术，它满足很多需求，并且能在 10 年内大规模走出实验室进入人们的生活。你有规模化的技术吗？换句话说，很多时候我们看到——我们不想只听到你的一个工厂。你制造一百个这样的工厂的规模化计划是什么，这样我们可以快速在全球部署？对吧？我们如何让这些东西快速到达地球的每个角落，因为我们都有这些问题。所以我认为这三个基本因素帮助我们缩小漏斗。然后显然还有财务条款，以及我们是否能提供帮助等等。但大方向就是这三件事。

Well, first is it's a wide funnel. So, it really is based on do they have a cool mission? Are we curious about the technology? Is this something that's important? Is this a really big market or really big problem that is solving something for let's say the climate crisis? And it could be anything. So, it's not just materials or just petrochemicals or carbon capture. We look across everything. So, because frankly, at the end of the day, the reason why we do this is cuz we love to learn, and you got to really understand the systems thinking as opposed to just one thing if you're really going to solve the problems we have. So, we like to look broad, very broad both from a technology perspective, value chain perspective, as well as regional perspective or country-based. So, we look at all this, and that's just how many cycles we have to learn, and how many people bring us interesting ideas. So, that's kind of the top of the funnel. But as we narrow down, there's a few things. One is can this be deployed en masse in the next 10 years? And is it going to be disruptive? Is it going to be like we talked about that the switch, you know, that from the vacuum tube to transistor, but this electrical distribution MEMS switch. It is can be applied to so many things along the way, and it's so disruptive, we're like, "That needs to exist." When it's disruptive and not just evolutionary, but it's going to change the players on top, it's going to change the products fundamentally, it's going to bring a win-win-win for the environment as well as customers as well as the manufacturers, that's when we see big gains. Like we we're talking about the motors as well. So, we want something with disruptive, wide impact, because that's what it's going to take to help fix this planet. We can't just have little There's no silver bullet for this. We've created so many different systems over the last 150 years, most of them almost all of them have even been thought about in a circular fashion, you know, and how to get the trash or how to make it more efficient. It's just like, "Oh, it works." But it works for that business, not for the planet, for us as a society. So, those are the kind of things that we really look to, and that's how we narrow that funnel. So, that's the first thing is does the technology is it disruptive? Is it close to being marketable? You know, is it close to being a product? The third thing is, and this is one of the most important things that we've learned across all of our portfolios, is there a way that we can quickly scale? So, because we have to we have to reboot the planet. This is not just oh, we got to go do one industry in this one state or some in this country. We're talking about when we say plastic problem, it's around the world. When we talk about energy inefficiency, it's around the world. So, if you have something, we want to see the disruptive technology that it's it meets it's it's it meets a lot of needs and can be out of the lab and into people's lives within 10 years in a mass scale. And do you have the technology for scale? In other words, a lot of times when we see Well, we don't want to just hear about your one factory. What is your scale plan for making a hundred of these factories, so we can quickly deploy them around the world? Right? How can we get this stuff moved quickly to to every corner of the planet, cuz we all have these problems. So, I think those are the three fundamental things that helped us to narrow that funnel down. And then there's obviously the financial terms and if we can help, and you know, all the other stuff. But the big the broad strokes are really those three things.

好的，所以我要深入探讨一下，我只想简单提一下，我永远念不对他的姓，也许你能念对，但与其念错，Chamath——大多数人知道我说的是 Chamath。是的，Chamath。他说过，世界上第一个万亿富翁将是解决气候变化或对气候变化做出巨大贡献的人。所以，我认为，在目睹了过去几年的巨变之后，确实存在一些巨大的机会，对于——我们就称之为——想要高投资回报的冷血资本家来说。当然。现在有很多技术和解决方案正在开发中，如果谈到直接面向消费者或消费者使用的产品，消费者会选择它们而不是替代品。所以我认为这个领域变得非常令人兴奋。你提到了——现在有些东西看起来很明显，并且被广泛讨论。比如，太阳能的采用，也许政府补贴以减少对化石燃料和外国能源的依赖，特别是外国能源。但是，我从未意识到，正如你描述的，从 A 点到 Z 点，由于效率低下损失了如此多的能量。有哪些不拥挤或被低估的目标，或者说与气候变化相关的领域，你认为人们应该更多关注？

All right, so I'm going to dig a little deeper on this, and I just want to mention briefly, and I can never pronounce his last name, maybe you can maybe you can get it right, but rather than butcher it, Chamath Most people know who I'm talking about when I say Chamath. Sure, Chamath, yeah. has said, you know, the first trillionaire in the world is someone who's going to fix climate change or greatly contribute to climate change. Uh so, there's a lot of there I do think having just watched kind of the sea change in the last few years, there's some really some tremendous, tremendous opportunities for for just let's just call it cold-blooded capitalists who want a great return on investment. Sure. There were there um there many technologies and solutions being developed now that that if we're talking about direct to consumer or products that consumers use, that consumers will choose over alternatives. So, I think it's become really exciting on the playing field. You mentioned Now, there are certain things that I would say are seem obvious and get discussed a lot. So, let's just say adoption of solar, maybe subsidies from the government such that we have less dependence on on fossil fuels and foreign, especially foreign energy. But, I had never realized, as you described, that so much energy was lost just due to inefficiencies from point A to sort of point Z. What are some of the uncrowded or underestimated targets, let's just say, or areas related to climate change that you you think people should pay more attention to?

有个人能做的，也有专业能做的。如果我们看，显然有电动汽车，做正确的事情，在家里进行回收和堆肥，以及所有正确的事情，比如重复使用，不买全新的。所以，所有这些面向消费者的事情都需要发生。但是，真正有责任的是创新者、公司、世界上的个人，为消费者带来新的解决方案，或者在客户甚至不知道的情况下改变系统。

There is what you can do personally and there's what it can be done professionally. And if we look at, you know, the obviously there's EVs and doing the right thing there and doing the your recycling and composting and all the right stuff at home and not, you know, reuse, don't buy all new. So, there's all those kinds of consumer-facing things that need to happen. But, it's really incumbent on the innovators, the companies, the individuals in the world to bring new solutions to consumers or change out the system without the customers even knowing.

为了提高效率，因为客户不知道全球产生的能源中有 60% 被浪费了。他们能做什么呢？能源就这么出现了。所以我们必须在某些方面、在很多方面、几乎在所有方面重新启动我们的基础设施。对我来说，有一个领域我们终于开始涉足了，那就是氢经济。如果我们想想今天使用的所有不同化学品，它们都来自石油。它们是从地下抽出来的东西经过精炼等过程得到的。塑料就是其中之一。我们可以转向基于氢的经济来生产所有这些产品。我们可以更快地生产它们，几乎不产生或很少产生二氧化碳，得到类似的产品，而且对公司来说实际上更有利可图。所以围绕氢有很多事情。以化肥为例。听起来不性感，但这个世界需要大量化肥。还有其他方法可以解决这个问题，但化肥是一个巨大的领域。混凝土是另一个。混凝土规模很大。钢铁也是，对吧？还有热能，就是产生高温蒸汽之类的东西用于不同的工业过程。今天我们烧煤、天然气或其他东西。我们可以用氢或电来实现。整个领域都不受重视。人们开始着手研究，开始取得进展，但我们还需要做更多工作。这不仅仅是电动汽车，也不仅仅是你在媒体上每天听到的事情。所以我认为我们需要认真考虑氢经济，在某种程度上还有生物质经济，因为我们可以把今天使用的很多东西，比如喷气燃料，从生物来源、垃圾来源（不是可食用来源，而是真正的垃圾或废物）转化过来，变成可以保持碳中和的东西。这不是一个完美的解决方案，因为我们使用的是地球上的生物质，但它就在那里，会变成二氧化碳或甲烷，所以我们可以把它重新利用起来。我们有很多技术可以做到这一点。所以我认为氢经济、生物质经济，不是砍树然后点燃冒烟。那不是我在说的。我说的是将其转化为化学品和原材料以便使用，而不是仅仅烧木头，我们看到很多人糊弄说那是清洁能源。其实不是。

To make things more efficient because customers don't know that 60% of all the energy created in the world is lost. What can they do about it? It just shows up. So we have to go and reboot our infrastructure in some ways, in many ways, in almost every way. And so there's one for me that we're now finally getting into, which is the hydrogen economy. If we think about all these different chemicals that we use today, they come out of petroleum. They come from sucking something out of the ground and then refining it, etc. Plastics is one of them. We can move to a hydrogen-based economy to create all of those products. We can create them more quickly with no or little CO2, get similar products out, and they're actually more profitable for the companies themselves. So there are all these things around hydrogen. Let's take fertilizer. It doesn't sound sexy, but we need a lot of fertilizer in this world. There are other ways of tackling that too, but fertilizer is a huge one. Concrete is another one. Concrete is huge. Steel, another one, right? Thermal, just creating thermal, like high-temperature steam and those kinds of things for different industrial processes. Today we burn coal, natural gas, or whatever. We could do it with hydrogen or we could do it with electricity. That whole area is unloved. People are starting to work on it. They're starting to make inroads there, but we need a lot more work on those things. It's not just electric cars. It's not just the things that you hear about in the press every day. So I think we need to be really thinking about the hydrogen economy and to a certain extent the biomass economy because we can actually turn a lot of the things we use today, like jet fuel, from bio sources, trash sources, not edible sources, but really trash or waste, and turn those into things that can stay carbon neutral. It's not a perfect solution because we're using things on the ground on the planet, biomass, but it's just sitting there and it's going to turn into CO2 or methane, so we could put it back in and use those things now. And we have lots of technologies to do that. So I think hydrogen economy, biomass economy, not chopping down trees and just lighting up smoke. That's not what I'm talking about here. I'm saying transforming it into chemicals and raw materials so that they can be used, not just burning wood, which we see a lot of people fudging that they say that's clean energy. It's not.

让我们回到你之前用过的一个术语，我很想听你谈谈，那就是碳移除。在过去 6 到 12 个月里，我对不同的碳移除方法非常感兴趣。不是碳信用，不是抵消，而是真正的碳移除。我仔细研究了 Stripe 的做法，我认为这非常创新且鼓舞人心。我很想知道你对碳移除有什么总体看法，是否有任何特别有趣的方法或公司，或者任何关于碳移除的评论或想法？

Let's return to a term that you used earlier that I would love to hear you speak about just a little bit, carbon removal. I've become very interested in the last 6 to 12 months in different means of carbon removal. Not carbon credits, not offsets, but actual carbon removal. I've looked very closely at what Stripe has done, which I think is really innovative and inspiring. I would love to know if you have any general thoughts about carbon removal, if any particular approaches or companies you find particularly interesting, any comments or thoughts at all on carbon removal?

好的。所以有从空气中移除碳的方法，我们看到 Climeworks 和其他人试图建立这些大工厂，可以说是吸入空气并取出二氧化碳。这可能会规模化，也可能不会。我对此了解不够。我总是喜欢去问题的源头，而不是为了允许其他人而修复问题。所以他们就在那里。我不知道那是否会很好。我希望是。我们需要很多解决方案。没有银弹。所以我希望他们非常成功，并且围绕这种成功展开竞争。但还有另一种方法，那就是把已经锁定在植物中的碳转化为仍然锁定在生物质中的东西。换句话说，我们如何把抽上来的石油或煤放回地下并留在那里？就像我们再次储存它，而不是作为气体或其他东西。我关注生物炭。我不知道你是否了解生物炭，但生物炭是一种方法，把各种生物质，基本上点燃它们，但在一定的程度、一定的温度、一定的气流下，它会把所有碳锁定。一旦你把它放在地上，它会停留数千年，然后被埋在地下，随着时间的推移变成石油或煤，而那就是生物炭。所以如果我们想想今天，生物炭已经存在数千年了。现在我们必须规模化地做。我们可以从中获得能量，但也可以锁定碳，因为如果你有死树干或其他东西，迟早碳会释放出来，也许 50 年、100 年，从腐烂的物质中。那么今天我们可以用生物炭，通过一个非常简单的过程锁定它，把它放在地下，获得能量，这对我们所有人都是双赢。所以当我看到碳封存时，就是这类事情，这非常聪明，因为人们说，让我们多种树。是的，但一旦树倒下，我们需要确保碳留在环境之外。我们怎么做呢？像生物炭这样的东西，锁定并储存它。还有第三种，即碳捕获，就是在烟囱或任何排放源上安装碳过滤器，然后试图重新捕获并转化为其他产品，这也可以做到。所以我认为这是我看到的碳捕获的三个不同领域，我认为所有三个都是必要的，我们应该尽早认真地安装这些洗涤器，尤其是在二氧化碳产生源上，因为我们开始向更清洁的氢基制造工艺或其他不使用旧二氧化碳排放工艺的过渡。

Okay. So there's carbon removal from the air, and we see Climeworks and other people trying to put up these big factories, so to speak, to suck in air and take out CO2. That may or may not scale. I don't know enough about that. I always like to go to where the source of the problem is as opposed to fixing the problem to allow other people. So that's where they're at. I don't know if that's going to be great. I hope it is. We need lots of solutions. There's not one silver bullet. So I hope they're very successful and the competition around that success. But there's another one, which is taking the carbon that's already locked into plants and turning that into something that stays locked into biomass. In other words, how do we take the oil that we pumped up or coal and how do we put it back in the ground and leave it in the ground? Just like we're storing it again, not as gas or whatever. And I look at biochar. I don't know if you know about biochar, but biochar is a way to take various biomasses, you basically light them on fire, yes, but at a certain degree, certain temperature, certain airflow, and it locks all that carbon in. And once you put it on the ground, it stays there for thousands of years and then gets buried under the surface and that's what turned into oil or coal over time, which was biochar. So if we think about today, biochar has been around for thousands of years. Now we have to do it at scale. We can get energy out of it, but we can also lock that carbon in because, again, if you have dead tree trunks or whatever else, sooner or later that carbon will be emitted, maybe 50 years, 100 years, from the decaying mass. Well, today we can just take biochar, lock it in, in a very simple process, put it in the ground, get energy out, and it's a win-win for all of us. So those are the kind of things when I see carbon sequestration, that's really smart because people are like, let's just plant more trees. Yes, but once the trees fall down, we need to make sure that carbon stays out of the environment. How do we do that? Something like biochar and locking it in and storing it. There's a third one, which is carbon capture, which is just hooking on carbon filters from smokestacks or wherever it's coming out and then trying to recapture that and turning it into other products, which can be done as well. So I think those are the three different areas that I see as carbon capture and I think that all three are necessary and we should be seriously throwing those scrubbers on sooner rather than later, especially on the CO2 generators, as we start to make the transition to much cleaner hydrogen-based manufacturing processes or whatever that are not using the old CO2 emitting processes.

还有其他公司、初创公司或大公司吗？虽然现在的初创公司 A 轮融资就达到数十亿美元，所以我很难理解很多这些。但在这些类别中，有没有让你印象深刻的公司？我想说 Charm Industrial 属于第二类，我相信，我对他们印象深刻，但前提是我只是一个还在工作中学习的业余爱好者。但有没有你想提到的你认为做得好的公司？

Are there any other companies, startups, or larger ones? Although startups these days are getting Series A funding at billions and billions of dollars, so it's hard for me to even wrap my head around a lot of that. But are there any companies that stand out for you in those categories? I want to say that Charm Industrial would fall into the second category, I believe, and I've been quite impressed by them, with the caveat that I'm just an amateur who's still learning on the job. But any companies that you'd like to mention that you think are doing a good job?

这些都是小公司。让我们说清楚。他们试图做正确的事情。他们想做正确的事情。

These are all small companies. Let's be very clear. They're trying to do the right thing. They want to do the right thing.

现在人们真的开始围绕它们集结了。投资者是早期资金。还有一家叫 Carboculture，也在做生物炭。Carboculture 就在那里，他们正在大规模生产，并且已经有了第一家工厂。但我还想看到“工厂的工厂”。他们如何大量制造这些设备，以便到处部署？

And now people are really starting to rally around them. Investors are the early money. And so, there's another one called Carboculture. They're also doing the biochar. So, Carboculture is there. And they're doing it en masse and they have their first factory. But again, I want to see a factory for a factory. How are they going to make lots of these so they can deploy them everywhere?

是的，没错。我看到了很多新技术。不幸的是，我现在没有具体的公司可以谈论关于烟囱洗涤方面。有很多新技术，比如膜技术、其他化学处理技术，用于从排放物中提取二氧化碳并将其转化为有用的形式。所以我手头没有现成的信息。我应该去查一下，然后给你一些可以放在评论或描述里的内容。节目笔记里，我们会放一些链接。我最近听说了一家，但我不能评价那家公司，我完全没有做过尽职调查，但名字很棒。它叫 Remora Carbon，拼写是 r e m o r a，这指的是——嗯——一种鱼，它会挂在鲨鱼侧面，吃鲨鱼进食时掉落的残渣。这是针对半挂卡车的碳捕获技术。所以这是一种搭便车的洗涤技术，就像海洋中的䲟鱼一样，附着在半挂卡车上。这非常非常令人兴奋。我的意思是，现在有很多创新。但就像你说的，规模还很小。所以“如何制造工厂的工厂”这个问题提得很好。

Yeah, right. I'm seeing a lot of new technology. I don't have any specific companies, unfortunately, right now that I can talk about in the kind of the smokestack scrubbing. There's a lot of new technology in terms of membrane technology, other kinds of chemical treatment technology to extract that CO2 from those emissions and bring them right down into some useful form. So, I don't have anything right off hand. I should go do some lookup and I'll give you some things you can put in your comments or in your description. The show notes, yeah. We'll put some links in. You know, I heard of one recently and I can't speak to the company. I haven't done any diligence on this at all, but great name. It's called Remora Carbon, r e m o r a, but it's a reference to this uh-huh. I believe it'd be categorized as a fish that kind of hangs on the sides of sharks and eats the scraps as the sharks consume their own food. And it's carbon capture for semi-trucks. So, it's scrubbing technology that is piggybacking, just like a remora in the ocean, on semi-trailer trucks. So, it's super super exciting. I mean, a lot of innovation happening right now. Like you said though, at very much so on a small scale. So how do you make a factory for a factory? Is a great way to put it.

完全正确。所以 Remora 是为卡车做的。我认为这些卡车实际上可以转向氢或氨推进。它们不一定非得用柴油，对吧？因为那些是长途运输的东西。同样，电动火车、电动火车或混合动力火车也是如此。所以是的，有很多这样的东西，其中一些是未来 5 到 10 年的权宜之计，因为我们正在从石油经济过渡到更以电子为基础的经济。

Exactly. And so Remora they're doing it for trucks. You know, I think those are something that can actually move to hydrogen or ammonia kind of propulsion. They don't necessarily have to use diesel, right? And you know, cuz those are those are longer haul stuff. Same thing with electric trains, electric trains or hybrid trains. So yes, there are a lot of these things and some of them are stopgaps for the next 5 to 10 years while we transition away from petrol-based economy to a more electron-based economy.

是的，所有这些都很有趣。我们试图追求的是终极解决方案，而不一定是这些时间窗口。因为对我来说，这就像混合动力汽车。当然，你可以买一辆电动汽油混合动力车，但实际上它是两个系统，复杂得多，更容易出故障。让我们努力达到最终目标，而不是这个中间目标。所以我总是试图寻找那些本身就是目的地的东西，而不是沿途的停靠点。

Yeah, all of these things are really interesting. We're trying to go for the stuff that's the ultimate solution, not necessarily these kinds of windows of time. Because to me, it's like a hybrid car. Sure, you can get an electric gas hybrid car, but really it's two systems that are much more complicated, more things to break. Let's try to get to the end goal as opposed to this interim goal. So I always try to look at something where it's the destination, not the waypoint along the way.

随着我们转向电子经济，我不知道你是否愿意尝试回答这个问题：你认为地缘政治将如何影响电子经济的供应链？就拿电动汽车来说吧。你看原材料，我技术不够，不知道那些原材料是什么，但你看某些国家做得非常好，对吧？你肯定能说出名字，但在非洲、南美洲，中国、俄罗斯正在建立非常扎实的实地关系。他们正在为城市和国家建设基础设施，我不想说是交换，但通常是同步进行，为许多原材料开发出非常出色、非常占主导地位的采购和分销网络。那么你怎么看？有哪些可能的发展方式？

As we move to electrons, I don't know if you are open to taking a stab at this, but how do you think geopolitics will figure into the supply chain for an electron-based economy, right? If you just look at electric vehicles, EV, right? You look at the raw materials, and I'm not technical enough to know what those raw materials are, but if you look at the incredibly good job that certain countries are doing, right? You can certainly name, but in Africa, in South America, at establishing China, Russia. Exactly. Really good relationships on the ground. They're building infrastructure for cities and countries, and I don't want to say in exchange, but often in tandem, developing incredibly good incredibly dominant sourcing and distribution for a lot of raw materials. So what do you think? What are some plausible ways that that develops?

嗯，我认为我们现在从正在进行的乌克兰战争中看到了现实。我们开始明白，我们需要在能源供应和原材料供应方面更加独立，并且如果我们想要一个真正的全球经济，我们需要与拥有相同价值观、道德和伦理的人合作。我认为我们曾经走过那条路，我们看到人们太长时间地利用这一点为自己谋利，现在他们想要崛起到一个更强大的位置，无论他们能不能做到。我不评判这一点。但我认为我们需要——我们，每个国家，都需要有自己的——欧洲是欧盟，我这么称呼它，我知道它有很多国家，但他们每个都需要有自己的战略能源采购方式。幸运的是，随着我们转向电子经济，这会更容易，因为可以在国境内完成。但从材料的角度来看，将需要更多的供应商。原因是，我们有点让垄断盛行，我们觉得“哦，那些是肮脏的，那些是艰难的生意。”实际上，有很多有趣的业务可以通过新技术建立起来，这些技术实际上可以帮助我们在本国境内或真正朋友的国境内更容易地找到和开采东西或找到这些元素，这样我们就可以建立这些战略物资。我们在许多方面目睹的情况，无论是材料、矿产还是制造业，都被外包给了 GDP 最低或人均 GDP 最低的国家，以获得最低的劳动力成本，然后那些东西会回到我们这里。我们不会再看到这种情况了。我们将看到技术驱动的开采之类的东西，而且它必须受到国家保护。这种情况只会越来越多。

Well, I think we're seeing the reality right now with the Ukraine war that's going on. And we're starting to understand that we need to have more independence in terms of our energy supplies, our raw material supplies, and we need to be working with people that have like values, like ethics, like morals, if we're going to truly be a global economy. I think we went down that road, and we're seeing people exploiting that to their own gain for too long, and now wanting to rise up in a more powerful position, whether they can or can't. I'm not going to judge that. But I think that we need — we, being each country, needs to have their own — Europe is EU, I'm calling it, you know, I know it's many countries, but they each need to have their own strategic way of doing energy sourcing. Luckily, as we go to electrons, that's going to be easier because it can be done inside the borders. But from a materials perspective, there's going to have to be many more suppliers. And the reason being is, you know, we kind of let monopolies prevail in there, and we're like, "Oh, those are dirty. Those are hard businesses." Actually, there's a lot of interesting businesses that can be built with new technology that will actually help us to find and mine things or find these elements much more easily inside our national borders and/or our true friends' national borders, so we can get these strategic things set up. What we were witnessing in many regards, whether that's in materials, minerals, manufacturing, it was outsourced to the lowest GDP country or the lowest GDP per capita country to get that lowest cost labor, and then those things will come back to us. We're not going to see that anymore. We're going to see technology-derived extraction, these kinds of things, and it's going to have to be nationally protected. And it's just going to happen more and more.

现在，这是一方面，即供应。但如果我们再看看技术，有一些非锂电池正在出现。硫基、钠基、铁基。所以我们实际上可以将某些技术调整为我们拥有的资源或地球上丰富的资源，这些资源不那么具有战略性，对吧？就像我们听到的稀土。有些是稀有的，有些不是，但稀土。这就是我们投资那家电机公司 Turntide 的原因，因为他们不使用任何稀土，对吧？那么当你用不同的方式制造这些电机，并且需要不同的合作伙伴时，那会是什么样子？

Now, that's one thing, which is the supply. But if we also look at the technology, there's things like non-lithium-based batteries that are coming. Sulfur-based, sodium-based. So iron-based. So we're actually able to then gear some of the technologies for certain things to the resources that we have or the abundance of resources around the planet where it's not as strategic, right? As where we hear about the rare earths. Some are rare and some aren't, but rare earths. This is the reason why we invested in that motor company, Turntide, is because they're not using any rare earths, right? So what is that look like when you have a different way of creating those motors and different partnerships that you need to be able to do so.

所以我认为我们将花越来越多的时间来理解我们需要投资于战略能力，我们不能只是把它外包给世界上成本最低的地方，利用物流链，然后我们就会陷入地缘政治的陷阱。战争是可怕的，是毁灭性的，还有其他所有问题，但有了高能源价格，你猜怎么着？从商业角度来说，它让气候变化的理性论证变得容易得多。显然，保护我们在地球上的物种既有情感因素也有理性因素，但有些人并不这么看，尤其是一些股东。

So I think we're going to be spending more and more time on understanding we need to invest in strategic capabilities, and we can't just farm it out to the lowest cost in the world and use the logistics chain, and then we get trapped from the geopolitical side. And the war is horrible, it's devastating, all those other things, but with high energy prices, guess what? It makes climate change a lot easier in terms of the rational argument for why we need to do it from a business perspective. Obviously, there's an emotional and rational to preserve our species on the planet, but some people don't see it that way, especially some shareholders.

但我认为我们开始看到，这不仅仅是做正确的事，不仅仅关乎我们作为社会整体，从地缘政治角度看，真正开始想办法实现更多自给自足、摆脱这些东西也是正确的。幸运的是，我们今天确实已经拥有可用的技术，让这样的世界成为可能，尽管我们更希望全球一体。不幸的是，并非所有人都持相同看法。

But I think we're starting to see that it's not just doing the right thing, it's not just about us as a society, it's also the right thing geopolitically to start to really figure out how to be more self-sufficient and get away from these things. And luckily, we do have technologies today that are already available to allow this kind of world to exist, even though we'd rather be all one thing. Unfortunately, not everyone sees it the same.

是的，当人们像很多人那样因燃料成本而钱包大出血，并且还会继续如此时，这确实突显了我们的脆弱性——如果我们不认真对待这些新技术和新的采购选择的话。

Yeah, it's certainly when people get hit in the wallet as intensely as a lot of people have been with fuel costs, and will continue to be, it sort of highlights the vulnerabilities that we have if we don't take a lot of these newer technologies seriously and newer options for sourcing.

对，完全正确。坦率地说，如果你看看我们的石化世界，它已经被补贴了几十年，一直被人为支撑着，对吧？而当我们看通胀时，我其实是从相反的角度看的。通缩正在停止。我们之前一直在通缩。我们把一切都转移到海外，我们追求最低的劳动力成本，取消医保等等。我们一直把外部成本转嫁给其他人，包括我们对气候造成的影响。现在这一切都回来了，之前的通缩不复存在，我们只是在偿还那些年没付的账，对吧？所以当人们说‘这是别人强加给我们的？’不，是我们自己为了长期压低价格而造成的。现在突然间，我们真的重置了整个系统，无论是劳动力、材料、制造还是采购。现在后果来了，我们却说‘哦，通胀。’不，我们终于支付了本应付出的价格，也许没有均匀分摊。我们本应该随着时间的推移稳步上涨的。

Right, exactly. And frankly, if you look at our petrochemical world, it's been subsidized for decades. It has been propped up, right? And if you look at when we look at inflation, I really look at it the opposite. Deflation is stopping. We've been disinflated. We've been moving everything offshore. We've been going the lowest for paying a workforce, getting rid of healthcare and all this other stuff. We've been just pushing the externalities on everyone else, what we're doing to the climate. Now it's all coming back to roost, and that deflation thing that was happening is no longer, and we're just paying back what we weren't paying all those years, right? So when people go, 'It's being done to us?' No, we did that to ourselves to try to keep prices low for so long. And now all of a sudden, we really pressed reset on the whole system, whether that's workforce, materials, manufacturing, sourcing. Now it's coming back, and we're like, 'Oh, inflation.' No, we're finally paying the prices we should have paid, maybe not all spread evenly. We should have been paying with a steady increase over time.

所以在我看来你似乎是个乐观的人。你觉得自己乐观吗？

So you seem like an optimistic guy to me. Would you consider yourself optimistic?

嗯，另一种选择很糟糕，所以……

Well, the alternative sucks, so...

嗯，我们再多谈谈这个。因为我看到各种民意调查显示，尤其是 20 到 35 岁甚至更年轻的群体，出现了创纪录的冷漠和悲观情绪。这是个问题，一个非常非常严重的问题。特别是考虑到很多企业家——那些将要投身商业这项高强度职业体育的人——在这个年龄段做了很多伟大的工作，对吧？无论是否在营利性领域，很多成就大事的人都处在这个年龄段。你如何培养乐观情绪，或者你会如何向那些整天被他们认为宿命的坏消息轰炸、感到冷漠的人推销乐观？

Well, we'll say more about that. Because I think I've seen various polls and surveys of especially younger people, like 20 to 35, maybe even younger, who have record levels of apathy and pessimism. That's a problem. That is a very, very significant problem. Especially when you consider a lot of the entrepreneurs who are going to be in the full-contact professional sports of business, do a lot of great work in that band, right? And whether that is in the for-profit sector or not, but just people getting big things done in the world, a lot of them fall in that band. How do you cultivate optimism, or how would you sell optimism to people who are feeling apathetic when they're just getting barraged all day long by what they consider to be fatalistic bad news?

首先，改变你的媒体食谱。首先，改变你的媒体食谱，开始和那些真正对问题有解决方案的人交谈和倾听。既然你已经关注到我们面临的一些问题，那就去了解它们，看看自己如何能成为解决方案的一部分。所以，你要么坐在那里冷漠无为，成为问题的一部分；要么行动起来，成为解决方案的一部分，对吧？冷漠并不处于问题与解决方案之间。如果你冷漠，你就是问题的一部分。你需要致力于解决方案。你越是关注解决方案——我看到未来 5 年、7 年、10 年、15 年的东西——你就忍不住乐观，因为你看到这些研究实验室或那些拥有伟大想法的杰出企业家带来的成果。当然有些会失败，但很多会成功，然后你开始想：‘天哪，未来是存在的。只要我们愿意拥抱，我们就能做到。’我们在新冠疫情中看到了这一点。就在两年前，我们团结一致。‘天哪，我们在搭建临时医院。我们如何做检测？我们如何用新方式沟通数据、传播新闻？’当然，也有错误信息等等。但看看世界是如何团结起来试图解决这些问题的。政府也行动了。你甚至可能感受到——至少我在欧洲感受到了——政客和政府展现出的领导力，他们试图做些什么，即使你可能不同意。当你看到我们人类确实有能力互相帮助、帮助自己以及彼此帮助时；当我们知道气候危机问题存在时；当你开始看到解决方案时，就很难再悲观或冷漠。因为再说一次，如果你那样做，你就不是在帮助解决问题，对吧？你没有站在那一边。站在另一边帮助解决问题，也许你会看到一些东西。我是一个谨慎的乐观主义者，好吗？我不只是一个……我曾经是一个乐观的乐观主义者。我现在是一个谨慎的乐观主义者，对吧？或者说是一个悲观的乐观主义者。我确保我们挑选那些可以成真并帮助它们成真的事情，因为有很多东西可以选择。但我显然会问所有问题。这不是‘哦，是的，那会很棒。’不，我们必须深入探究，因为有很多可疑的人在兜售并不存在的东西。但当你站到等式的另一边，开始寻找解决方案时，你就可以开始变得乐观。所以首先改变你的媒体食谱。开始学习。思考你热爱的事情，然后深入钻研，因为外面有那么多资源。你无法相信有多少东西存在。而且这些领域需要人才，通常报酬也很高。你将做一些对你自己、你的家庭、也许你的孩子或孙辈有意义的事情，这将有助于你的社会，也有助于地球。这样，当你在 2050 年与你的孙辈或其他人在餐桌旁坐下，他们说：‘天哪，我们刚刚度过了气候危机。它总是会萦绕不去，但我们挺过来了。’你的孩子或那一代人，餐桌旁的人会问：‘你当时做了什么？你个人或职业上如何解决？你是如何成为解决方案的一部分的？’你就能给出真正好的答案。因为这是关乎存亡的事情。这不是关于元宇宙或 NFT 赌博的疯狂。这是关于我们面临的真正问题。而且，回到你之前的观点，第一个万亿富翁将是解决地球上这些巨大问题的人。为什么？因为没有这些，我们将无法生存。这是最大的痛点。想想看。

Well, first, change your media diet. First, change your media diet and start talking and listening to people who actually have some possible solutions for the problems. Now that you're tuned into the problems that some of the problems we have, go learn about them. Go see how you can be part of the solution. So either you can sit there and be apathetic and be part of the problem, or you can move and be part of the solution, right? Apathy doesn't sit in the middle between problem and solution. If you are apathetic, you're part of the problem. You need to be working on the solutions. And the more that you look at the solutions, and I'm seeing things for 5, 7, 10 years out, 15 years out, you can't help but be optimistic because you see the stuff that's coming down through these research labs or from these brilliant entrepreneurs who have great ideas. And some will fail, of course, but a lot of them will succeed, and you start going, 'Oh my god, there is a future. We can do this if we want to embrace it.' We saw it with COVID. We all got together at COVID just 2 years ago. 'Oh my god, we're putting up temporary hospitals. What can we do about testing? What are we doing about new ways of communicating the data and getting the news stories out there?' And of course, there was misinformation, all the other stuff. But look at how the world rallied together and tried to figure this stuff out. Governments did. And you might even feel, at least I did here in Europe, a sense of leadership from the politicians and the governments of trying, even if you might not agree, trying to do something about it. When you see that we do have that capability as humans to help each other and help our own as well as each other. When we know that there are climate crisis problems out there. And when you start to see the solutions, it's hard to be pessimistic or apathetic about it. Because again, if you are, then you're not helping to solve it. Right? You're not helping to be on that side. Be on the other side helping to solve it and maybe you'll see something. I'm a cautious optimist, okay? I'm not just a... I used to be an optimistic optimist. I'm a cautious optimist, right? Or a pessimistic optimist. I make sure we pick things because there's lots of things to pick from that can be real and help those become real. But I obviously ask all the questions. It's just not like, 'Oh yeah, that's going to be great.' No, we have to really dive in because there's a lot of shady people out there selling things that don't really exist. But when you start to get on the other side of the equation and start to look for solutions, then you can start to get optimistic. So change your media diet first and foremost. Start learning. Think about things you're passionate about and dive in and learn because there's so many resources out there. You wouldn't believe how many things are out there. And people are needed for those. And they're usually really well paying, too. And you're going to do something that's meaningful to you, to your family, maybe your kids or grandkids, and it's going to help your society and it's going to help the planet. So that when you sit at a dinner table in 2050 with your grandkids or whoever it is and they go, 'Oh my god, we just got past this climate crisis issue. It's always going to be lingering with us, but we got past it.' Your kids or your generations, people around the table go, 'What did you do about it? How did you solve it personally or professionally? How are you part of the solution?' You can actually have really good answers. Because this is an existential thing. This is not about metaverse or the craziness around the NFT gambling. This is about true problems that we have. And to your earlier point, the first trillionaire will be someone who solves these massive problems on this planet that we have. Because why? Because we're not going to exist without them. And that's the biggest pain ever. Think about this.

当你生病时——当然我希望你永远不会——但有人生病时会发生什么？他们会突然说：“我要改变我的人生。”比如心脏病发作，谁知道是什么情况。但愿别出事，但他们会说“我要改变人生，我要行动起来”。可你知道吗？我们的星球病了。我们的星球病得非常严重，而且是我们造成的，没有别人。是我们造成的。也许是其他世代。但你不能干坐着说：“好吧，它病了，我不知道该怎么办。”它就像家人一样，太重要了，就像家人。你个人和职业上都在做些什么来站在正确的一边，努力寻找解决方案？你在这里，这是激情所在，兄弟。我喜欢这些东西。这就是我想提它的原因。所以我认为人们会从这次对话中带走很多关于我们讨论内容的笔记。

When you get sick, or I don't know I hope you never do, but when someone gets sick, what happens? They'll all of a sudden go, "I'm going to change my life." I you know, they have a heart attack, who knows what it is. God forbid anything happening, but "I'm going to change my life. I'm going to go and and they wake up to it." Well, guess what? We have a sick planet. Our planet is incredibly sick and we caused it. Nobody else. We caused it. Maybe it's other generations. But you can't just sit around and go, "Well, it's sick. I don't know what to do." It's a family member. It's so important. It's a family member. What are you doing to be on the right side and trying to to find solutions both personally and professionally. You're here. It's a passion, man. I I love this stuff. know. This is why I wanted to bring it up. And so people, I think, will will come away from this conversation with lots of notes related to everything we've discussed.

在改变媒体食谱方面，有没有其他特定的人或资源可以推荐？哪怕一两个也行，让人们看看，让信息摄入更多样化、更有营养？

Are there other, in terms of changing media diet, any particular people, resources, could just be one or two, any anything or anyone else you could recommend people take a look at to diversify, get some more sort of nutritious fiber in their information diet?

嗯，我认为这是一个很好的起点，能提供很好的概览。《Speed and Scale》。我不知道你能不能看到，但那是约翰·杜尔最新的汇编，汇集了各种致力于气候解决方案的人。我觉得那本书很棒。副标题是“现在解决气候危机的行动计划”。它并不完全完整，但阅读它就能获得很好的感觉。我肯定有关于它的播客，约翰也做过很多不同的节目。我认为那是一个很好的开始。还有像《My Climate Journey》这样的东西。嗯，它讲述业内正在努力解决问题的人。还有各种博客，你可以阅读每日文章，了解各种解决方案。也有很棒的播客，视频或 YouTube 视频深入探讨很多内容。所以这真的取决于——希望有某件事能让你真正感到不安，比如“为什么环境中有这么多污染？”或者为什么街道上有垃圾？或者为什么有食物浪费？找到你真正关心的事情，无论是个人还是职业上，去学习它，看看如何利用你的时间和激情——或者你的厌恶——把它变成积极的东西并帮助他人。

Well, I think this is a great great place to start, which gives a great overview. Speed and Scale. I don't know if you can see it, but That's uh yeah. That's John Doerr's latest compilation of all kinds of different people working on climate solutions. I think that's a really great one. The subtitle's an action plan for solving our climate crisis now. It's not fully complete, but it gives a good sense of just reading about it. I'm sure there's podcasts about it. I'm sure John's done a lot of different ones. I think that's a a really good place to get started. There's also things like My Climate Journey. Mhm. Talks about people who are in the industry and and doing trying to to to solve things. And it's just looking at at different blogs. There's all kinds of different blogs that you can read with daily articles about various solutions that can get into it. And there's also great podcasts, too. Video or YouTube videos that dive into a lot of the stuff. So it really depends on what hopefully there's something that you really gets you really upset. Like, "Why is there so much pollution in the environment?" Or why is there Why do we have trash on the streets? Or or why is there food waste? Finding something that you really care about and either going in it personally or professionally and learning about it and seeing how you can use your your time and your passion and and turn it into or your disgust and turn it into something positive and help.

对于听众，我会在节目笔记中附上我们讨论过的所有内容的链接。所以你们有几个地方可以开始小口品尝和探索，在 tim.blog/podcast。托尼，和你谈话总是很鼓舞人心。我总能重新充满干劲，去解决困难的事情。所以我欣赏你这一点。我也欣赏你是一个罕见的结合体：既非常技术性，又非常精炼。我本想说你非常有天赋，但那可能暗示某种天生特质，你或许也有。但你发展了讲故事和沟通的技能。我认为这是一个非常强大的组合。我的意思是，我真的认为它非常引人注目。而且这都是学来的。你知道，你的听众可以学会。你可以学会。就是始终考虑受众，考虑信息。你为什么做这个？为什么，而不是什么？这是关于使命，而不是你的自我。而为什么、为什么、为什么，加上讲故事和技术方面，以及很多细节，我认为在新书《Build》中得到了很好的传达，副标题是“An Unorthodox Guide to Making Things Worth Making”。

And uh for for people listening, I'll also include links to everything we've discussed in the show notes. So you'll have a couple of places to start nibbling and exploring at tim.blog/podcast. Tony, you're always inspiring to talk to. I always get to you know, recharge myself full of piss and vinegar to go out and tackle something difficult. So I appreciate that about you. And I I also appreciate that you're an uncommon blend of someone who's deeply technical, but also deeply honed. I was going to say deeply talented, but that might imply something innate, which you may also have. But you have developed the skill of storytelling and communication. And I think it's a really formidable combination. I mean I I do I do think it's it's incredibly compelling. And it was all learned. You know, your audience can learn it. You can learn it. It's just always thinking about the audience, thinking about the message. Why are you doing this? Why why, not what? And and it's about the mission, not about your ego. And the why why why and the storytelling plus the technical side and a lot of details are conveyed, I think, beautifully in the new book, Build, subtitle An Unorthodox Guide to Making Things Worth Making.

我会读更多这本书。我过去 24 到 48 小时里小尝了一下，它非常——我只想给你应有的赞誉。它排版非常好。谢谢。我很惊讶有多少写得好的书排版却很糟糕，视觉上难以吸收。但这本书的排版方式让页面非常易读，章节非常短。就像老鼠配了可卡因丸分配器，多巴胺强化，用在积极意义上。我知道这可能是个有点尴尬的例子，但作为读者体验，它非常自我延续。所以我真的鼓励大家去看看。

And uh I am going to read a lot more of this book. I I I did a little taste tester you know, over the last you know, 24, 48 hours and it's very well I just want to give you credit where credit is due. It's very well formatted. Thank you. I'm amazed how many well-written books are poorly formatted in the sense that they are simply visually difficult to absorb. But the book is formatted in such a way that the pages are incredibly readable and the chapters are incredibly short. So the kind of like rat with a kind of cocaine pellet dispenser, dopamine reinforcement used in the positive sense. I know it's a bit of maybe an awkward example, but it's it's it's very self-perpetuating as a reader experience. So I I really encourage people to check it out.

我真的很感激，因为我们花了很多时间重新架构这本书，试图让它达到那种效果。那是一个很大的风险。我们冒了险，把它抛出去看看，因为我认为它不同于其他书，就像我说的，它不是——你可以按字面读，但真的不是为了那个。最终只是想帮助别人。说实话，如果你买这本书，所有给我的收益或利润，都会进入一个我将管理的气候基金，我会以五倍的资金匹配。所以无论出来多少，我都会匹配五倍。我们会亲自管理，把这些钱投入到气候危机解决方案中。我们会继续投资，然后随着时间的推移，我们也会把所有的利润捐赠给专注于气候的慈善机构。所以这一切都是为了回馈，激励那些致力于解决艰难的社会健康或地球规模问题的人，帮助他们通过我们的失败学习，同时也帮助地球。所以试图把从中得到的一切再投资，因为整个世界，如我们所知，是循环的。世界上的一切都是循环的。所以我想确保这一切都回馈出去，我希望你的听众、观众能在书中找到价值，去购买它，这样你也能帮助寻找气候变化的解决方案，至少帮助我们找到解决方案。

I really appreciate it cuz we I I spent a lot of time re-architecting, you know, the book and trying to get it into that that thing. And and and that was a big risk. We took a risk, threw it out there and see cuz it's I think it's unlike other books, you know, and it's like I said, it's not You can read it literally, but it's really not for that. And just want to help, you know, at the end of the day just want to help. And to be truthful, you know, if you buy the book, the book, there is all proceeds that come to me or any profits that come to me, they're all going to a climate fund that I'm going to run that I'm matching with five times the money. So whatever comes out, I'm going to match it five times. And we're going to personally manage and put that money to work in climate crisis solutions. And we're going to continue to invest that. And then over time we'll we'll then be donating all the profits of that as well to climate-focused uh charities. So the whole thing here is just to give back, to inspire people who are working on tough societal health or or planet scale problems, help them learn to through the failures we had and to also help the planet. So trying to take whatever comes out of it and reinvest it because the whole world, as we know, is it's circular. The everything in the world is circular. And so I want to make sure this all goes back and I hope your listeners, your watchers will find something find a value in the book and go out and and and purchase it so that you can be also helping find the solutions to climate change, helping us find the solutions to climate change, at least.

所以大家去看看。《Build，An Unorthodox Guide to Making Things Worth Making》。托尼·法德尔，你可以在 Twitter 和 Instagram 上找到他，账号 @tfadell。你可以在 Twitter 上找到 Futureshape，账号 @futureshapellc。在我们结束之前，你还有什么想补充的吗？任何评论，对观众的其他要求？抱怨，什么都行？

So people check it out. Build, An Unorthodox Guide to Making Things Worth Making. Tony Fadell, you can find him on Twitter and Instagram @tfadell. You can find Futureshape on Twitter @futureshapellc. And is there anything else you'd like to to add, Tony, before we wrap up? Any comments, other requests to the audience? Complaints, anything?

所以，你知道，最终，随着乌克兰-俄罗斯战争的进行，我们还有中国与世界其他地区之间的地缘政治紧张局势等等。我一直试图从历史角度真正理解这意味着什么，以及技术如何能应用于这些事情。所以我一直在读像《百年马拉松》这样的书。

So, you know, at the end of the day with the Ukraine-Russian war that's going on, we have geopolitical tensions between China and the rest of the world and everything. I've been trying to really understand from a historical perspective what that means and how technology can be brought to bear on those things. And so I've been reading books like the the 100-year marathon.

比如像这样，只是为了从不同角度学习。那是迈克尔·皮尔斯伯里写的。我也对雷·达里奥的《变化中的世界秩序》非常着迷。当你开始看到历史重演时，这真的很有洞察力，能帮助你更好地理解世界，这些书在阐明这些事情上做得很好。另一本我希望会出版的书是雷的这本书的第二版。它将真正讨论政府、货币、金融等新技术，所有这些事情，你知道，在他的书中，他谈到了这些弧线和世界秩序，哪个国家处于顶端，是英国还是荷兰，最终是美国。这些事情，这些世界变化是如何发生的，而且它们几乎都以同样的方式发生。我不会在书中透露全部内容，但你应该读这本书，但我们现在有了货币、金融系统、政府系统、社区行动和纽带的技术，这些可能会改变这些弧线。它太具颠覆性了。它们可能会改变这些弧线，这并不意味着今天书中所写的明天就会在未来发生，因为现在技术可以改变那些在过去几百代人中或多或少被锁定的基本要素。所以，看看这些教训或历史教训如何随着我们改变技术而改变，将会非常有趣。所以，我认为这是两本非常好的书，人们如果想知道发生了什么并理解它，这两本书真的很棒。

Something like this just to learn to get from a different perspective. That's by Michael Pillsbury. I'm also been really fascinated by the changing world order by Ray Dalio. When you start to look at history repeating itself, it's really insightful to help you try to understand the world better and these books do a great job of illuminating those things. The other one that I hope is going to happen and Ray does a it's the second edition of this book. It's going to really talk about the new technologies for government, for currency, for finance, all of these things that, you know, in his book he's talking about these arcs and world order, which country was on top, whether it was the UK or whether it was the Dutch and then ultimately the US. These kinds of things, how those changing world happened and they almost happened all the same way. I won't give it all away in the book, but you should read the book, but we now have technology for currencies, for financial systems, for governmental systems, for community action and bonding that may change these arcs. It's so disruptive. They may change these arcs and it doesn't mean what is written in the book today will happen tomorrow in the future because now technology can change those fundamentals that have been more or less locked in for the past hundreds of generations. So, it'll be very interesting to see how these lessons or these historical lessons change as we change the technology. So, I think those are two really great books that people should, you know, if they want to understand a little bit about what's going on and make sense of it, those are two really great books.

太棒了。谢谢你，托尼。我认为对很多人来说，无论是创业之前还是自学一些技术创新和可能的解决方案，起点都是，正如你所说，改变你的信息摄入。我认为这非常关键。你给了很多关于创业方面和气候解决方案方面的建议。我只是觉得，你知道，垃圾进，垃圾出。所以，你必须解决垃圾输入的问题。毫无疑问。

Wonderful. Thank you, Tony. I think for a lot of folks, the starting point whether it's prior to building a company or educating themselves on some of these technological innovations and possible solutions is, as you said, changing your information intake. I think it's so critical. And you've given a bunch of recommendations on the entrepreneurial side and also on the climate solution side. I just think, you know, garbage in, garbage out. So, you got to fix the garbage in piece. Without a doubt.

是的，你不能自动给任何想要的公司根权限访问你的大脑。这是一组非常危险的权限，不能随便自动授予。所以，真的要思考信息摄入。我认为你给出了一些非常好的指导。所以，谢谢你。

Yeah, you just can't give automatically any any company that wants it root access to your brain. It's a very dangerous set of permissions to just automatically give away. So, really thinking about information intake. I think you've given some really good guidelines. So, so thank you for that.

嗯，谢谢你。感谢你的时间。希望我们关于你小团队管理内容的讨论，也许能有点帮助。我不知道。哦，我记了一大堆笔记。我记了一大堆笔记，你知道，最强大的洞察力有时就隐藏在显而易见的地方，这太不可思议了，对吧？就像我在脑子里想这种虚假的，在某种意义上，时间共享与任务共享的虚假二分法，我在想，一旦你任务拆分，那些就固定了。虽然我甚至没有在脑子里表达出来，因为我没想到你会轮换。对吧？我的意思是，就这么简单，但我需要有人告诉我。天哪，就像有时候你有多盲目？太不可思议了。我为你感到非常兴奋。我知道现在你的团队为了新书发布都在夜以继日地工作。我认为这本书真的能自立。你知道，很多人在新书发布时大力推广，但最终，书必须靠自己，我认为这本书有很多非常非常好的战术建议。谢谢。所以，我感谢你再次抽出时间和我交谈。很高兴见到你。真的很感激。谢谢，托尼。

Well, thank you. Thanks for the time. Hopefully our discussion on your small team management stuff, maybe that can help a little bit. I don't know. Oh, I took a ton of notes. I took a ton of notes and it's you know, it's it's it's incredible how the most some of the most powerful insights can be just hiding in plain sight, right? Like I was thinking in my head of this kind of false well, in a sense like a false dichotomy of the time sharing versus task sharing and in my head I'm thinking, well, once you task split, those are set. Although I didn't even phrase it in my mind cuz it didn't occur to me that you would have a rotation. Right? I mean, it's just it's so simple, but it I but I needed someone to tell me. God, it's just like how blind can you be sometimes? It's incredible. And I'm very excited for you. I know everybody's burning the candle at both ends right now on your team for the book launch. I think the book really stands on its own two feet. You know, a lot of people do a big push for a book launch and at the end of the day, the book has to stand on its own and I think the book has a lot of really, really good tactical advice. Thank you. So, I appreciate you taking time once again to have a conversation with me. It's nice to see you. Really appreciate it. Thanks, Tony.

致所有听众，首先，感谢你们的收听。嗯，下次再见，比必要的更友善一点，培养乐观精神。这是可以培养的。从更仔细地选择你的信息来源开始。我鼓励你们去看看这本书，《创造：非正统的值得创造之物指南》，作者托尼·法德尔。再次，下次再见，感谢收听。也谢谢你。

And to everybody listening, well, first of all, thank you for listening. And uh until next time, be a little kinder than necessary, cultivate optimism. It is something you can cultivate. Start with picking your information sources more carefully. And I encourage you to check out the book, Built, an Unorthodox Guide to Making Things Worth Making by Tony Fadell. And once again, till next time, thank you for tuning in. Thank you, too.