托尼·法德尔：从童年动手到创造 iPod

首先，我想向任何我在来这里的走廊里撞到的人道歉。如果我撞到了你，而且显得很粗鲁，那是因为我完全是一团糟，浑身是汗，惊慌失措。今天早上开了五个半小时的车，我实际上是在两点二十六分才到达，而活动是两点半开始。我不得不把车开上一条人行道，这非常尴尬，然后弃车冲到这里。所以如果我听起来有点疲惫，我道歉。还有那个在我脚下颤抖的孩子，我显然会补偿的。我为这次采访做了一些笔记。其实我并不需要，因为托尼·法德尔是我心目中的英雄之一。他是一位……谢谢您，总统先生和首相先生。我就是总统兼首相。这确实是事实。我闻到了权力的味道，我喜欢它。它有点肉桂味。总之，对于那些不了解的人，简单介绍一下托尼·法德尔对我们这个时代文化的非凡贡献：他是一位黎巴嫩裔美国人——我想我说得没错——黎巴嫩、波兰、俄罗斯、美国混血。哦，我喜欢这个组合。这真是非常好的混合。我不能，我只是匈牙利人，只是匈牙利、奥地利、英国混血。完全没有威尔士血统。哦，顺便说一句，那是个提议。贾里德，亲爱的。所以我们要来回聊一聊，但首先要说的是，你可能从节目中知道，托尼是苹果公司开发标志性 iPod 的主要推动力，时间在 20 年代末，但主要是 21 世纪初。史蒂夫·乔布斯和苹果首席设计师乔纳森·艾夫的名字在我们的文化中回响。但托尼·法德尔的名字直到最近可能还不那么为人所知，还有乔恩·鲁宾斯坦，我想谈谈他，因为我认为数字历史上有一个非常有趣的时刻。但托尼基本上永远改变了音乐。

Firstly, I want to apologize to anybody I barged into in the corridor on my way here. If I did and I seemed rude, it's because I was in a complete muck, sweat, and panic. It's a five and a half hour drive here from this morning and I literally arrived at 26 minutes past 2 for a 2:30 gig. I had to drive my car onto what turned out to be a pedestrian walkway, which is deeply embarrassing, and abandon it and rush here. So if I sounded a little bit peaked to anybody, I do apologize. And the child I trembled under foot, I will obviously recompense. I've made some notes for this interview. Not that I really need to because Tony Fadell here is one of my heroes. He's a man who is... Thank you, Mr. President and Prime Minister. I am president and prime minister. That is in fact true. I have smelt power and I like it. It's slightly cinnamony. Anyway, for those who don't know, a brief introduction to Tony Fadell's extraordinary contribution to the culture of our times is that as a Lebanese American, I think I'm right in saying, Lebanese Polish Russian American. Oh, I'm loving it. That's a very good mixture. I can't, I'm only Hungarian, only Hungarian Austrian English. Not good at no Welsh me at all. Oh, that's an offer by the way. Jared dear already. So we're going to sort of go backwards and forwards a bit, but just the first thing to say is that you probably know from your programs that Tony was really the major force behind the development at Apple in the late 20s but mostly early 21st century of the iconic iPod. The names of Steve Jobs resound around our culture and of Jony Ive, the chief designer at Apple. But Tony Fadell's name has until recently been perhaps less well known, and that of Jon Rubinstein about whom I'd like to talk because I think there's a very interesting moment in digital history. But Tony changed music forever essentially.

你太客气了。这需要团队合作。

You're very kind. It takes a team.

确实需要团队合作。史蒂夫总是这么说。尽管史蒂夫总是被指责拥有自己的扭曲现实力场，每个想法都是他的想法。每当他被授予奖项时——我曾参与过评审委员会，我们想给他颁发大奖，相当于艺术诺贝尔奖的严肃高级奖项——他在世时总是拒绝，因为他说这始终是团队的努力。苹果始终是一个团队。总之，我已经说得太多了。让我们开始问你，你是怎么进入苹果的？我相信你从小就有工程师的天赋。

It does take a team. That's what Steve always said. Although Steve was always accused of having his own distorted reality field and every idea was his idea. Whenever he was offered an award, and I've been on award juries where we wanted to give him big awards, serious senior awards equivalent to artistic Nobel laureates, he always when he was alive said no because he said it was always a team. Apple was always a team. So anyway, I'm talking far too much already. Let's start off by asking you how you got to Apple. I believe you were always something of an engineer from being a child.

是的，完全正确。那么我是怎么到那里的呢？我在硅谷待了 25 年，但这一切真正开始于我小时候。我的祖父，在我三四岁的时候，他是一名教育工作者。他实际上是底特律一个学区的负责人。他会教当时的年轻人各种手艺，比如木工等等，那是在 40 年代和 50 年代。通过这个，他把我和我哥哥纳入他的羽翼之下，那时我们非常小，他教我们如何建造鸟屋、修理割草机和自行车等等。通过这些，他教导我们：看，这些东西是人造的。这辆自行车、这台割草机是人造的，人也可以把它做得更好。不要害怕。去试试。自己尝试。这非常有启发性，深深打动了我。另一件事是，他还说，如果你要做某件事，就要把它做好。确保你专注并把它做好。通过这种道德观、这种职业道德和价值观，我继续找到了自己动手做项目的热爱。最终，当计算机出现时，当 Apple II 问世时，我一直在使用锤子和钉子。我的祖父也是。当我看到那个工具时，我说：“我需要它。”我不知道为什么需要它。我大概八九岁。我说：“我必须拥有它。”他看到了。他一生从未碰过电脑，从未发过电子邮件，但他看到它让我的眼睛发亮，他说：“你也需要一个。”所以他说：“如果你非常努力地工作，我会把你赚的钱翻倍，你就可以买那台电脑。”从那时起，我得到了我的第一台电脑，然后就一发不可收拾了。

Yes, absolutely. So how did I get there? I've been in Silicon Valley 25 years, but it really started for me when I was a child. My grandfather, when I was about three or four, he was an educator. He was a superintendent of a school district in Detroit actually. And he would teach different trades, woodworking, what have you, to the youth of the time, just in the 40s and 50s. Through that, he took me under his wing and my brother when we were very small, and he trained us how to build birdhouses, repair lawnmowers and bicycles, and all of these things. Through this, he taught us that look, a human made these things. A human made this bicycle, this lawn mower, and a human can make it better. Don't be afraid. Go and try it. Try for yourself. That was really instructive and hit me deeply. The other piece was that he also said if you're going to do something, do it right. Make sure you focus and do it right. Through that ethic, through that work ethic and morals, I just continued to find the love of experimenting on projects myself. Ultimately, when the computer came, when the Apple II came out, I was always using hammers and nails. So was my grandfather. When I saw that tool, I said, 'I need it.' I didn't know why I needed it. I was probably eight or nine years old. I said, 'I need to have that.' And he saw it. He never touched a computer in his life. He never sent an email, but he saw it light my eyes up and he said, 'You need one of those as well.' So he said, 'If you work really hard, I'll double whatever you make and you can get that computer.' From there, that's when I got my first computer and it was off to the races.

所以你补充了这一点，因为这是我和你不同的地方：我的父亲是物理学家，而你提到的你的祖父。他听起来很像理查德·费曼的父亲，费曼写道他父亲为他付出了大量时间。任何问题，无论看起来多么愚蠢，他都会回答。为什么当我在火车上跳起来时，我不会撞到火车尾部，因为我正在快速前进？这实际上是费曼问他父亲的一个非常微妙和精彩的问题，他父亲说：“好吧，我们来弄清楚。”因为他父亲不知道。所有这些关于物理、工程、制造、设计、可改进性和完美主义的问题，我想，让你天生适合史蒂夫·乔布斯，对他来说完美主义是一个代名词。这绝对可能损害他周围每个人的利益。绝对关键。

So you added to this because this is the thing where you and I depart because my father is a physicist and your grandfather you were talking about. He sounds very like Richard Feynman's father when Richard Feynman writes that he had an immense amount of time for him. Any question however apparently dumb he would answer. Why when I jump up in the air in a train, don't I hit the back of the train because I'm going fast? It's actually a very subtle and brilliant question that Feynman asked his father and his father said, 'Well, let's find out.' Because his father didn't know. All these questions about physics and engineering and manufacture and design and improvability and perfectionism made you a natural fit, I would have thought, for Steve Jobs, for whom perfectionism was a byword. It was absolutely to the detriment of everyone working around him perhaps. Absolutely key.

与史蒂夫合作时非常有趣。当我们完成第一代 iPod 并向世界展示后，实际上在向世界展示几小时后，我们就回到了实验室，讨论哪些地方不对，我们需要在下一个版本中修复什么，就在几小时后。所以我们总是说我们庆祝了微秒。庆祝一微秒，然后继续前进，继续我们的完美工作。这绝对令人惊叹，之后一次又一次地发生，我经历了 18 代 iPod。

And it was very interesting when working with Steve. When we'd finished the first iPod and we had shown the world, literally hours after it was shown to the world, we were back in the lab talking about what was not right, what we needed to do to fix on the next version, literally hours later. So we always said we celebrated in microseconds. Celebrate for a microsecond and let's move on and continue to our work of perfection. It was absolutely amazing and that happened time and again after for me 18 generations of the iPod.

有一个故事，我相信不是真的，但有一个意大利短语描述它：“se non è vero, è ben trovato”（即使不是真的，也编得很好），是关于早期原型在鱼缸里的故事，我相信你听说过。你听过那个故事吗？故事是这样的：乔恩·鲁宾斯坦、你和乔纳森·艾夫带着一个早期原型走进史蒂夫的办公室，这个原型体现了任何美国设备的概念。它必须能放进美国人衬衫口袋里的东西。经典的德国街头衬衫这里没有口袋。但在 Palm 设备和黑莓的时代，它们必须能放进衬衫口袋。史蒂夫对 iPod 的想法是它必须能放进去。总之，这个原型到了。它只是有点太宽。他得稍微摆弄一下。确实能放进去，但他得稍微摆弄一下。

There's a story which I believe is not true but there's an Italian phrase that describes it, 'se non è vero, è ben trovato' (if it's not true, it's well invented), which is the story of the one of the early prototypes in the fish tank, which I'm sure you've heard of. Have you heard that story? Well, it's a story that says that John Rubinstein and you and Jony Ive walked into Steve's office with an early prototype of the idea of any American devices. It has to fit into what Americans all have in their shirts pockets here. The classic German street shirt has no pocket here. But in the days of Palm devices and Blackberries, they had to fit in the shirt pocket. And Steve's idea of the iPod was that it had to fit. Anyway, this one arrived. It was just a bit too wide. He had to do a bit of wangling. It did fit, but he had to do a bit of wangling.

他说：“太大了。”然后要么是你，要么是约翰·鲁宾斯坦，要么是别人说：“史蒂夫，这是物理定律。你知道，这已经是最小的了。”好吧。然后他把它扔进鱼缸，气泡冒了出来。他说：“看来还有空间，伙计们。”

He said, "It's too big." And either you or John Rubenstein or somebody said, "Steve, there are laws of physics. You know, this is as big as it gets." All right. And he dropped it in a fish tank and bubbles came up. And he said, "Looks like there's room, guys."

实际上，这是个有趣的故事，其实是索尼的 Norya Oga 的故事。这也是最初 Walkman 启发我的地方之一。索尼是我成长过程中的偶像品牌之一。他拿了一个最早的 Walkman，放进一杯水里，气泡冒了出来，他说可以做得更小。所以确实如此。但那是索尼的故事。是的，这是索尼的故事。神话就是这样诞生的。

So, actually, that's actually a story that's funny that's actually a story of Norya Oga at Sony. So this is actually when the first Walkman, one of the things that actually inspired me as well. Sony was one of the idol brands when I was growing up. He took a Walkman, one of the first ones, and he put it in a glass of water and bubbles came out and he said you can make it smaller. So absolutely. So but that was a Sony story. Yeah. This is a Sony story. Myths are born.

在苹果之前，你在飞利浦打拼，就像黑手党说的“立下功劳”。飞利浦是像索尼那样似乎错过了机遇的公司之一。CD 是索尼生产的。而你是个狂热的 CD 用户，因为音乐是你的生命，我相信。

You moved before Apple, you kind of made your bones, as they say in the mafia, with Philips. Philips, which is one of those companies like Sony that seemed to have missed the bus. It was with Sony that produced the CD. And you were a great CD user because music was your life, I believe.

我来自底特律，摩城唱片，对吧？所以音乐深深植根于我，我热爱音乐。我在 80 年代和 90 年代也当过 DJ，不是专业的，而是为朋友和各种活动。我拖着几百张 CD 到处跑，非常重，因为 CD 是主流，黑胶唱片正在退出。通过这个经历，我想，我们在飞利浦和之前的小型手持设备上努力，这正是我对音乐的热爱与技术碰撞的地方。我想，为什么不能做得更小？为什么不能把音乐压缩进去？我们试图把音频也带到这些手持设备上，就像当时的 Palm Pilot 和苹果 Newton。我们想把音乐带进去。所以所有技术实际上在 2000 年底、2001 年初汇聚在一起，可以起飞了。然后在德国，弗劳恩霍夫研究所开发了 MP3 的编解码器。

Well, I came from Detroit, Motown, right? And so it was instilled in me and I loved music and I was carrying, you know, I was also a DJ during the 90s and 80s and I always did it, not for really professionally but for friends and different events, and I was lugging hundreds of CDs from place to place. It was so heavy, you know, because CDs were the rage, not vinyl, right? Vinyl was going out. And so through that, I was like, and we were building at Philips and before that small handhelds and this is where that collision happened of my love of music, and I'm like, why can't we make something smaller? Why can't we compact that music in? And we were trying to bring audio also to these handhelds. That was like the Palm Pilot of the day and the Apple Newton. We wanted to bring music to that. And so it literally all the technology converged literally at the end of 2000, early 2001 when it could all take off. And then in Germany they developed the codec for the MP3 at Fraunhofer.

因为这是海伊文学节，观众可能想知道为什么我们在谈论这些书呆子气的东西，与书无关。我们可以看看 1995 年出版的一本非常有影响力的书，它至今仍极具预言性，那就是尼古拉斯·尼葛洛庞帝的《数字化生存》。我记得读这本书时，感觉就像有人打开了灯。那是一个非凡的时刻。女士们先生们，这本书在 95 年非常简单地说，世界将分为由原子构成的事物和由比特构成的事物。电子本质上没有质量。这不可能完全正确，因为整个大型强子对撞机实验就是为了证明希格斯玻色子的存在，从而赋予电子质量。但就实际用途而言，它们没有质量。例如，这个 iPad mini 上有几本书，重量就是那么多。我可以再放一千本书上去，重量完全相同。另一方面，不用我说，如果你在行李里放一千本书，那会有多少磅或英石的重量。原子是物理的，有重量。电子比特没有。在 95 年，相当早的时候，尼古拉斯·尼葛洛庞帝写了这本书，我强烈建议你们读一读。这是一本非常棒的书，我认为它会经得起时间的考验。他预见了数字图书，也就是我们现在所说的电子书、Kindle 等等。他预见了从 DVD 和 CD 等事物到我们现在所说的无重量内容的整个转变。我想知道你是否读过这本书，是觉得“哦，我都知道”，还是认为他确实有预言性，值得关注。

Just because this is the Hay Literary Festival and they may be wondering why they are talking about things that are basically nerdy, nothing to do with books. Can we look at 1995 which saw the publication of a very influential book which can be seen still to be immensely prophetic and that's Nicholas Negroponte's 'Being Digital' which I remember reading and it was as if somebody had switched the light on. It was an extraordinary moment and this is a book, ladies and gentlemen, which is very, very simply said in '95 that the world is going to be divided into things that are made of atoms and things that are made of bits. Electrons essentially have no mass. Now that can't be true because the whole Large Hadron Collider experiment is designed to prove that the Higgs boson is there in order to endow mass on the electron. But for all intents and purposes, they have no mass. For example, this iPad mini has a few books on it and weighs however much it weighs. I could put a thousand other books on it and it would weigh exactly the same. On the other hand, I don't have to tell you if you put into your luggage a thousand books just how many pounds or stone that would take of mass. Atoms are physical and they weigh. Electrons bits don't. And in '95, really quite early, Nicholas Negroponte wrote this book which I would urge you to read. It's a really wonderful book which I think will stand the test of time. And he foresaw digital books, ebooks as we now call them, Kindles, all the rest of it. And he foresaw the entire move from things like DVDs and CDs into this world now of weightless content as we like to call it. And I wondered if you read the book and whether it was like 'oh yeah, I know all this' or whether you thought he was actually prophetic and worth paying attention to.

嗯，尼克·尼古拉斯，实际上我在 90 年代初就去听过他的讲座。真的吗？是的，我会去东海岸听他的讲座，因为当时我们还在纠结电视应该是模拟还是数字。这正是促使他写这本书的原因，因为他希望整个世界转向数字，尤其是视频。这也是教育公众了解数字技术以及我们为什么应该走这条路的原因之一。因为如果人们不知道，实际上在日本，他们在 80 年代末 90 年代初就有了高清电视，但全是模拟的，他们说：“让我们把这个标准推广到全世界。”然后经过多年的大争论，才最终转向数字，达到今天的状态。标准无法统一真是不可思议。我的意思是，美国的 NTSC 对抗欧洲的 PAL，还有日本的不同系统。直到今天，我们甚至不能把同样的插头插进同样的插座，这很大程度上是保护主义，对吧？是的。这很愚蠢，不是吗？现在图书也是这样，对吧？甚至电子书，对吧？只有这个电子书能在这个设备上工作，反之亦然。

Well, Nick Nicholas, I was actually going to his lectures actually in the early '90s. Really? So, yes, I would go over to the East Coast and go to his lectures because at the time we were still wrestling with should TV be analog or digital. And this was the whole thing that spurred him to write the book because he wanted the whole world to move to digital, especially for video. And that was one of the reasons to educate the public about digital and why we should go that way. Because if people didn't know, literally in Japan, they actually had HD TV, but it was all analog at the end of the 80s and early 90s, and they said, "Let's bring that standard to the rest of the world." And it was a huge fight for many years to actually move it to digital to where it is today. It's extraordinary how standards can't be settled. I mean, NTSC in America against PAL in Europe and against the different system in Japan as well. And I mean still to this day we can't fit the same plugs in the same socket and a lot of that is protectionism, right? It is. It's very dumb, isn't it? It's done with books today, right? Even ebooks, right? Only this ebook will work on this device or vice versa.

我想讲一个关于约翰·鲁宾斯坦的故事，我不知道是不是真的。所以我会开头，如果你知道，请补充完整。因为我认为这对大公司来说很有趣。想想你提到的索尼，他们开发了 Walkman 和 CD。他们不仅是一家生产 CD、电脑和播放器的公司，甚至还有非常早期的电子书阅读器，就是那个非常笨重的，远在 Kindle 之前，他们还拥有哥伦比亚影业、三星影业和索尼影业。所以他们不像东芝那样只是制造商，他们实际上是音乐和电影出版领域的参与者。有一个故事说，史蒂夫和托尼说过，将 MP3 格式缩小成一个可移动播放器，相当于现代的 Walkman，对苹果的未来至关重要。每个人都想，嗯，如果有一个像一吉字节那么大的驱动器就好了，就像美国人说的“这么大”。“这么大”是个很灵活的说法。5 吉字节。据说约翰·鲁宾斯坦，这个领域的工程主管，去东芝进行礼节性拜访。你知道这个吗？是在日本。他们说：“我们有一个非常好的小驱动器。我们不知道拿它做什么。”他看了看，心想：“天哪，这正是史蒂夫想要的。这将成就 iPod。”而史蒂夫当时正好在日本。

The John Rubenstein story I wanted to tell which I don't know is true. So I'll start it and if you recognize it, please finish it. Because I think it's fascinating in terms of huge corporations. You think of Sony who you were talking about the Walkman and the co-developers of the CD. They were not only a corporation who made things like CDs and computers and players, even the very early ebook player, you remember that absolutely chunky clunky one, well before the Kindle, but they also owned Columbia Studios, Tristar Studios and Sony Pictures. So they were not just like Toshiba say, they were actually players in the game of music and film publishing. And there's a story that Steve and Tony had said that it was basically really important to the future of Apple that this MP3 format should be reduced into a movable player that was the modern equivalent of the Walkman. And everyone thought, huh, that would be great if there was a driver like a one gigabyte drive about yay big, as Americans like to say. 'Yay' being a very movable feast. 5 gigabytes. And supposedly John Rubenstein, who was the head of engineering in this area, was paying a courtesy visit to Toshiba. Do you know this? It was in Japan. And they said, "We got a very good little drive here. We don't know what to do with it." And he looked at it and thought, "Oh my god, this is just what Steve wants. This is going to make the iPod." And Steve happened to be in Japan at the time.

他们共进晚餐，他说：“史蒂夫，能给我开一张 5000 万美元的支票吗？”史蒂夫说：“这很重要吗？”他说：“非常重要。”史蒂夫说：“好吧。”拿出支票簿，签了支票。我喜欢这个故事。这些都是很棒的故事。这是我第一次听到其中很多故事。它们在网上流传。我讲过。我知道。我知道。我讲给福尔肖听，我们都笑得前仰后合。但我喜欢它，因为即使它不是真的，其中有一部分是真的。

They had dinner and he said, "Steve, could you cut me a check for $50 million?" And Steve said, "Is it important?" He said, "Really important." Steve went, "Okay." Took out his checkbook, wrote the check. And I love this story. These are great stories. This is the first time I've heard many of them. They are reproduced online. I did. I know. I know. I told it to fall short and I both laughed their heads off. But I love it because even if it isn't true, there's a part of it that is.

是的，确实如此。于是他们去了东芝，鲁宾斯坦说：“我需要尽可能多地生产你展示给我的那种小硬盘。”东芝的人问：“你要用来做什么？”他说：“哦，你不用担心。我们刚有了个想法。可能有点疯狂。”他们说：“好吧，没问题。”于是他们大量生产，果然，iPod 诞生了。但即使这不是真的，令人惊叹的是，距离东芝仅几英里之遥就是索尼公司。索尼拥有音乐产业、电影产业，以及因 Walkman 而备受喜爱的巨大声誉。它占据了所有音乐硬件市场 60% 到 70% 的份额，就在眼皮底下。一家只以制造电脑闻名的公司却偷走了整个音乐产业，而且索尼再也没有追上。

Yes, there is. And so they went to Toshiba and Rubenstein said, "I need as many of these little drives you showed me as you can possibly make." And they went, "What are you wanting for?" He said, "Oh, you don't have to worry about that. We just got this idea. It's probably crazy." And they went, "Okay, no problem." And so they churned them out and sure enough, the iPod was born. But even if that isn't true, what is extraordinary is that just a few miles away from Toshiba was the Sony Corporation. Which had a music industry, a film industry, a huge reputation of being adored for the Walkman. They had about 60 to 70% market share for all music hardware under its nose. A company that was only known for making computers stole the entire music industry and it has never caught up.

而真正导致失败的是 MP3 编解码器，对吧？MP3 编解码器让你能够获取音乐，因为 CD 本身没有任何加密。解释一下压缩和编解码器是什么。

And the really the undoing was the fact of the MP3 codec, right? The MP3 codec allowed you to actually take the music because CDs themselves were not encrypted in any way. Explain what compression and codecs are.

所以当我们把所有东西从模拟转为数字时，当你采样时，它会变成一个非常大的文件。音乐中有很多比特是你的耳朵听不到的。所以 MP3 编解码器的作用是让它变得非常小。所以每个音乐文件可能只有 4 兆字节、5 兆字节。这是因为压缩。没有压缩的话，它可能高达 250 到 300 兆字节。对于今天来说这听起来不算多，但在当时确实非常大。所以 MP3 这种压缩算法让我们能够利用数字网络来传输音乐。首先他们可以把音乐从 CD 上抓取下来，然后他们可以在彼此之间传输。因为 CD 没有加密，人们可以随意传输所有内容。那就是抓轨的时期。

So when we move everything from analog to digital, when you sample it, it becomes a very large file. And there are lots of bits inside that music that your ear can't hear. So what the MP3 codec did was allow it to be very small. So each music file was maybe four megabytes, five megabytes. That's because of compression. Without compression, it could be as much as 250, 300 megabytes. For the time today that doesn't sound like a lot, but for the time that was really large. So that compression algorithm MP3 allowed us to use our digital networks to move it. First they could take the music off the CD, then they could move it around between each other. And because the CDs weren't encrypted, that allowed people to move everything around. That was the period of ripping.

那就是抓轨。没错。口语中的“抓轨”，而 DVD 是加密的。这就是为什么电影不像音乐那样容易传播，而且电影文件也比音乐大。

That was ripping. That was right. The vernacular ripping whereas DVDs were encrypted. And that's why you don't see movies around as easily and those are also bigger than the music.

所以索尼想确保数字世界的新格式是加密的。他们想确保他们所有的媒体公司仍然能赚钱。所以他们多年来一直纠结于如何消除 MP3，而不是拥抱它。于是 MP3 一代诞生了，索尼被远远甩在了后面。

So Sony wanted to make sure the new formats in the digital world were encrypted. They wanted to make sure that all their media companies were still going to make money. So they were bound up for years in trying to figure out how to undo MP3 as opposed to embracing it. And so the MP3 generation happened and Sony was left behind in the dust.

而你在这其中扮演了重要角色。我的意思是，这是索尼的错，因为他们拥有一切机会，只是人们讨论他们是垂直还是水平整合。这些奇怪的公司术语。他们各自为政，非常孤立。

And you were a large part of that. I mean, it's Sony's fault because they had every opportunity going for them except people talk about whether they were vertical or horizontal. These strange corporate phrases. They were all siloed. They were very siloed.

但真正有趣的是，当我和史蒂夫交谈时，因为那时我已经在硅谷待了大约 12 年，我们在一个叫 General Magic 的公司工作，那是早期的 Macintosh 团队。比尔·阿特金森，伟大的比尔·阿特金森，安迪·赫兹菲尔德，所有人。我们打算在 20 年前重新创造 iPhone。通过那家公司，我们学到了所有关于这些数字事物的知识。当我加入苹果时，我完全震惊于 General Magic 是一个彻底的失败。但在苹果，史蒂夫说：“看，我们要做这个东西。”我说：“史蒂夫，我为所有这些本该很棒、本该改变世界的公司工作过。”他说：“怎么？”苹果，记得在 2001 年，它还不是我们今天所知道的公司。那时，它银行里大约有 2 亿美元。它濒临破产，负债 5 亿美元。库存堆积如山。没错。而今天，它银行里有 1600 亿美元。但我问史蒂夫的具体问题是，我已经学会了我们可以制造任何东西。安迪、比尔和他们都向我展示了我们可以制造任何东西。我们怎么销售和营销？我担心索尼。他说：“你制造这个东西，我们会投入每一分钱来正确销售和营销它。”他确实做到了。

But what was really interesting was when I talked to Steve because I had been in the valley at that time about 12 years and we were working at this company called General Magic and it was the early Macintosh team. Bill Atkinson, the great Bill Atkinson, Andy Hertzfeld, all of them. And we were going to recreate the iPhone 20 years earlier. And through that, we were learning all about these digital things. And when I went to Apple, I was absolutely astonished by the fact that General Magic was an utter failure. But at Apple, Steve said, "Look, we're going to make this thing." And I went, "Steve, I've worked for all these companies that were supposed to be amazing and they were going to change the world." He said, "How?" Apple, remember at the time in 2001, it was not the company we know today. Back then, it had about $200 million in the bank. It was close to bankruptcy and $500 million in debt. Inventory piled high. Exactly. And today, it now has $160 billion in the bank. But what I asked Steve was specifically how I've learned that we can make anything. Andy and Bill and all them showed me we can make anything. How are we going to sell and market? I'm worried about Sony. And he goes, "You make this thing, we're going to put every dime we can to sell it and market it properly." And he absolutely did that.

而他能够做到这一点的一个原因，应该补充的是，因为史蒂夫·乔布斯的非凡故事，在 2000 年后仍会被人们像谈论亨利·福特、洛克菲勒、詹姆斯·瓦特或任何你选择的、对改变世界有难以置信影响力的人那样谈论。其中一件事是，他以非凡的精力在 1984 年 1 月将 Macintosh 推向市场。在 1985 年，他说服了经营百事可乐公司（那家糖水公司）的斯卡利，百事可乐在那个领域最重要的市场——超市的夸脱瓶装市场中超越了可口可乐。史蒂夫·乔布斯去找斯卡利说：“你必须来接管苹果，因为苹果就像百事可乐，我们必须击败像可口可乐一样的 IBM。”斯卡利说：“我不懂电脑。”最终，史蒂夫·乔布斯用一句著名的话说服了他。他说：“听着，你是想卖一辈子糖水，还是想改变世界？”这是一个问任何人都很好的问题。斯卡利说：“好吧。”但搞笑的是，大约六个月内，约翰·斯卡利就把史蒂夫·乔布斯从他创立的公司解雇了。

And one of the reasons he was able to do that one should add is that because in the extraordinary story of Steve Jobs who in 2000 years time will still be spoken about in the way that Henry Ford is spoken about and Rockefeller and James Watt or whoever you choose who was unbelievably influential in changing the world. One of the things is that he with extraordinary energy brought the Macintosh to market in January 1984. In '85 he had persuaded this man Scully who ran PepsiCo, the sugar water company, who had overtaken Coca-Cola in what was the most important market apparently in that sector, which was the quart bottle in supermarkets. And Steve Jobs had gone to Scully and said, "You got to come and take over Apple because Apple is like Pepsi and we've got to beat IBM who are like Coca-Cola." And he said, "I don't know from computers." And eventually with a famous line, Steve Jobs got him. He said, "Listen, do you want to sell sugar water for the rest of your life or do you want to change the world?" That's a pretty good question to ask anybody. He said, "No, okay." But what was hilarious is that within about six months, John Sculley had fired Steve Jobs from the company he had founded.

于是史蒂夫·乔布斯离开后创立了一家名为 NeXT Computing 的公司。NeXT 即使没有其他原因也是非凡的。它使用了为网络而构建的 Unix 操作系统，在这方面远远领先于时代，因为网络在当时并不是人们真正做的事情，当然不是互联网意义上的网络。他们做的是局域网意义上的网络。但有一件特别令人兴奋的事情发生了。我提到了大型强子对撞机。在它成为大型强子对撞机之前，它也是一个普通的加速器，大约有 60 个不同的国家派出了物理学家来到那里。

So Steve Jobs went off then to found a company called NeXT Computing. NeXT was extraordinary if for no other reason. It used the Unix operating system which was built for networking and was way ahead of its time in that sense because networking was not really something that people did certainly not in an internet sense. They did in the LAN sense, a local area network sense. But one particular exciting thing happened. I've mentioned the Large Hadron Collider. And before it was the Large Hadron Collider, it was a run-of-the-mill accelerator too and there were about 60 different nations who had produced physicists who had come to it.

一位名叫蒂姆·伯纳斯-李的英国计算机科学家受命让那些彼此无法通信的不同计算机能够交流。他编写了一个最初称为“信息矿”的程序，但作为一个非常谦逊的人，他意识到那意味着它叫“蒂姆”，而他的名字就是蒂姆，所以他想，我不能这么叫，于是改名为万维网。有一个他去巴黎的故事，是蒂姆告诉汤米的。为了炫耀，他编写了超文本传输协议（HTTP）、HTML 和浏览器——就像 Firefox、Chrome 或 Safari 那样——让你能够浏览。旧金山有一个，其他地方也有一个。他带着这张光盘，一路从日内瓦带到巴黎，那里有一个开发者大会，史蒂夫·乔布斯本人将在 98 或 99 年左右参加。抱歉，是 88 或 89 年，也许是 90 年。史蒂夫·乔布斯沿着这些不同的软件展位走，就像公爵夫人在花展上一样，嗅着它们，说“哦，非常好。”当然，只有史蒂夫才会这样，他接着说：“这个糟透了。这个很棒。这个糟透了。这个很棒。这个糟透了。这个很棒。这个真是棒极了。”就在他快要走到那张包含万维网的光盘——有史以来最有价值的代码——时，有人说：“史蒂夫，如果我们还要去俄罗斯机场，我们最好现在就走。”他从未看到它。他在见到蒂姆·伯纳斯-李之前就去世了。他们从未见过面。相当令人惊讶。

An English computer scientist called Tim Berners-Lee had been asked to allow different computers that didn't speak to each other to communicate. He produced a program he originally called the Information Mine, but being a very modest man, he realized that meant it was called Tim, and his name was Tim, so he changed it to the World Wide Web. There's a story of him going to Paris. Tim told Tommy this. To show off, he had written the Hypertext Transfer Protocol (HTTP), HTML, and the browser—like Firefox, Chrome, or Safari—which allows you to browse. There was one in San Francisco and one somewhere else. He brought this optical disc and took it all the way from Geneva to Paris, where there was a developers conference that Steve Jobs himself was going to attend in about '98 or '99. Sorry, '88 or '89, maybe '90. Steve Jobs went along these rows of different bits of software like a duchess at a flower show, sniffing them and going, 'Oh, very good.' Only being Steve, of course, he went, 'That sucks. That rocks. That sucks. That rocks. That sucks. That rocks. That's insanely great.' Just as he was about to get to the optical disc which contained the World Wide Web—the most valuable piece of code ever written—someone said, 'Steve, if we're going to make Russy airport, we better go now.' And he never saw it. He died before meeting Tim Berners-Lee. They never met. Quite astonishing.

我想说的是，他后来创立了皮克斯，我相信你们都听说过——那个著名的小台灯，上面写着皮克斯，以及它制作的著名电影，比如《玩具总动员》等等。迪士尼收购了皮克斯。所以当人们问“苹果是如何涉足音乐的？”时，史蒂夫·乔布斯已经是好莱坞的主要玩家之一，因为他是迪士尼的主要股东，比罗伊·迪士尼持股还多。他在迪士尼公司的股份比罗伊·迪士尼还多。所以他能够把哥伦比亚唱片公司或其他所有公司召集到一起，即使这违背了它们的利益，并说：“音乐的未来就是这样。”洛杉矶地区的好莱坞是一个非常注重关系的行业。因为他们与史蒂夫有信任关系，而且苹果在美国的市场份额非常小，他们认为数字音乐只是与史蒂夫和苹果的一次实验。他们会看看数字音乐的发展，然后在弄清楚如何控制它之后，再确定真正的商业模式。

The point I was trying to make is that he then founded Pixar, which I'm sure you've all heard of—the famous little lamp that appears with Pixar written across it, and the famous movies it's made like Toy Story and so on. Disney bought Pixar. So by the time people were saying, 'How did Apple get involved with music?' Steve Jobs was one of the major Hollywood players because he was the chief stockholder in Disney, more than Roy Disney. He had more stock than Roy Disney in the Disney corporation. So he was in a position to be able to get the record labels—Columbia or all these others—even if it was against their interests, to get them together and say, 'This is how music is going to be.' Hollywood in the LA area is a very relationship-based business. Because they had that relationship of trust with Steve, and also because the market share of Apple was very small even in the States, they thought digital music was just going to be an experiment with Steve and Apple. They'd see what happens with digital music and then figure out the real business model after seeing how to control this.

你对 iPod 的实际贡献是什么？你做了整个流程图之类的吗？

What was your actual contribution to the iPod? Did you sort of do the whole flowchart?

我是被约翰·鲁宾斯坦叫来的。我有一个共同的同事和朋友，我们偶然一起吃了午饭——有一天我和这个朋友吃了午饭，第二天约翰和同一个人吃了午饭。通过这件事，约翰说：“你认识懂数字音乐和手持设备的人吗？”我当时做数字音乐和相关产品的初创公司经营得不太好，因为那是 2000 年，互联网泡沫刚刚破灭。他说：“哦，是的，我认识这个叫托尼的家伙。”从那以后，约翰让我过来，说：“我们有个叫 iTunes 的东西。它进展顺利，但我们只是在刻录 CD。我们在玩这些 MP3 播放器，因为当时有 MP3 播放器，但我们无法让它们与 Aros 和许多你不知道的韩国品牌很好地配合。如果苹果做一个，会是什么样子？我们想把这个任务交给你。”在六到八周的时间里，我做了所有研究，整合了所有芯片组、存储、电池、各种部件、原理图，甚至定价，并把它们打包成一个方案。我做了一个泡沫塑料模型，用我祖父的钓鱼铅坠加重。天哪。我把它放在那里，然后又做了另外两个模型。和史蒂夫一起，你总是要做三个：两个很烂的，一个你真正想要的。所以经过六周夜以继日的工作，我把它们带进去，呈现给史蒂夫。那是我第一次真正与史蒂夫会面。

I was called by John Rubinstein. I had a mutual colleague and friend, and we serendipitously had lunch—I had one one day with this friend, and the next day John had lunch with that same person. Through that, John said, 'Do you know anyone who knows about digital music and handhelds?' My startup at the time, which was doing digital music and those things, was not doing really well because it was year 2000, right when everything crashed in the internet. He said, 'Oh yes, I know this guy Tony.' From that, John had me come over and said, 'We have this thing called iTunes. It's going very well, but we're only burning CDs. We're playing with these MP3 players because there were MP3 players at the time, but we can't really make them work well with Aros and many Korean brands you wouldn't know of. What would it be if Apple made one? What would it look like? We want to task you with that job.' Over a period of six to eight weeks, I went and did all the research, pulled together all the chipsets, storage, batteries, all the various pieces, schematics, and even pricing, and put it together in a package. I made a styrofoam model, weighted with my grandfather's fishing weights. Good lord. I put it there and then made two other models. With Steve, you always had to make three: two that were really shite and one that you really wanted. So after six weeks of working day and night, I brought those in and presented them to Steve. That was my first real meeting ever with Steve.

乔尼是什么时候加入的？

When did Jony come aboard?

实际上大约四周后。我大约三四周后见到了乔尼，然后乔尼在初次会面大约六周后参与进来。

It was literally about four weeks later. I met Jony about three or four weeks later, and then Jony got involved about six weeks later from that initial meeting.

那个圆形的东西是你的主意吗？

Was the idea of the circular thing yours?

哦，你是指那个滚轮？我做了一些按钮。菲尔·席勒，他今天仍在公司——一个了不起的人物，很棒的人——带来了一个产品上的 jog shuttle 滚轮，说：“我们需要把这个放上去。”他们不告诉我，因为我当时是顾问。但菲尔说：“我觉得我们有合适的界面了。”史蒂夫和菲尔说：“我们能给这个顾问看看吗？”史蒂夫说：“好吧，他够格。拿进来吧。”我说：“我知道那是怎么工作的。好吧，我们也把它加上去。”从那以后，我成了员工，大约七个月后，我们出货了第一代 iPod。

Oh, you mean the wheel? I had made some buttons. Phil Schiller, who is still at the company today—a terrific figure, great guy—brought in a jog shuttle wheel from a product and said, 'We need to have this on it.' They wouldn't tell me about it because I was a consultant. But Phil goes, 'I think we have the right interface for it.' Steve and Phil go, 'Can we show this to this consultant guy?' And Steve goes, 'Okay, he's good enough. Bring it in.' I was like, 'I know how that works. Okay, we'll just throw that on as well.' From there, I became an employee, and about seven months later, we shipped the first iPod.

你还记得第一次在旧金山的无轨电车上，或者在硅谷的某个酒店里，看到一个你不认识的人真的买了一台，戴着耳机在使用吗？你没看到他们在用。你总是只看到白色的耳机，标志性的耳机。你微笑着，就像……你看到他们那样做。那让你很兴奋。

Do you remember the first time you were on a trolley bus in San Francisco or somewhere in a hotel in the valley and you saw somebody you didn't know who had actually bought one, using it with the plugs in their ears? You didn't see them using it. You always just saw the white earbuds, the iconic earbuds. And you smile and you're just like... And you saw them kind of doing that. That gave you a buzz.

当然。我会走到人们面前说：“你觉得这个产品怎么样？”只是因为我想要得到反馈。

Absolutely. I would go over to people and say, 'What do you think of this product?' Just because I wanted to get reactions.

因为，你知道，我们经历了太多失败，至少在我的职业生涯中，我工作了大约 11 或 12 年，非常努力地工作，直到看到有人眼前一亮，我当时想，‘哦，我觉得我们有魔法了。’因为在开发的整个过程中，我们的团队压力巨大，而苹果当时也处境艰难。所以我们非常希望它能成功，因为这是一个巨大的风险，对吧？我们当时只是做电脑生意的。然后当 iPod 首次推出时，人们说，‘等等，苹果做音乐生意？这毫无意义。太糟糕了。太贵了。太大了。诸如此类。它会失败的。’对吧？人们总是指责苹果自以为是，只为设计师着想等等。但如果你去过库比蒂诺的园区，你就会知道那里全是只想做出最好产品的人。

Because again, you know, we had gone through so much failure, or at least in my career, and I'd been working for about 11 or 12 years, working incredibly hard to see somebody light up, and I was like, 'Oh, I think we have magic.' Because during the whole time of the development, our team was so stressed, and Apple was really hurting at the time. So we were just so hopeful that this was going to take off because it was a huge risk, right? We were just in the computer business. And then when the iPod first came out, people said, 'Wait a second, Apple in the music business? This makes no sense. This is horrible. It's too expensive. It's too big. It's all these things. It's going to fail.' Right? People have always accused Apple of being up itself and for designers and all the rest of it. But if anyone has ever visited the campus in Cupertino, they know that it is full of people who just want to make the best thing they possibly can.

完全正确。他们确实如此，钱并不是他们真正追求的。

Absolutely. And they have, and the money is not really what they're after.

没错。这是千真万确的。你可能会想，‘哦，说得容易’，但你知道，他们显然不想破产，不过，苹果的 DNA 存在于公众中，许多员工在史蒂夫回来之前最黑暗的时期仍然在那里。当史蒂夫回来时，他重新激发了那种文化。于是那种休眠的职业道德和对完美的追求重新燃起并展现出来，这时你看到了新的 iMac，然后显然还有 iPod。

Exactly. And it's genuinely true. And you probably think, 'Oh yeah, it's easier to say,' but you know, obviously they don't want to go out of business, but no, there's an Apple DNA in the public and many of the employees were still there during the darkest times before Steve came back. And what happened was when Steve came back, he re-energized that culture. So that same dormant work ethic and strive for perfection reignited and came out, and that's when you saw the new iMac, and then obviously the iPod.

我记得在 90 年代中期，我所有用 PC 的朋友都说，‘哈哈，你得从爱好者商店买零件了，因为三年后就不会有苹果电脑了。’我当时想，‘天哪，也许他们是对的。’因为所有行业都在这么说。他们说，‘苹果完蛋了。绝对完蛋了。库存堆积如山。股价跌入谷底。’公司似乎不可能复苏了。

And I remember in the mid-'90s, all my friends who had PCs were going, 'Haha, you'll have to buy spare parts from a hobbyist shop because there won't be any Apple computers in three years time.' And I was going, 'Oh god, maybe it's right.' Because all the trades were saying that. They were saying, 'Apple is doomed. It's absolutely doomed. Inventory piled high. Stock price in the basement.' And it seemed impossible that the company could ever recover.

没错。在 2001 年，据说苹果有 3% 到 4% 或 5% 的市场份额。实际上只有大约 1% 的美国市场份额。在日本稍微多一点，但在世界其他地方，人们都背弃了苹果。

Exactly. And in 2001, Apple had, it was said like, oh, 3 to 4% or 5% market share. It was really about 1% US-only market share. The rest a little bit more in Japan, but literally everywhere else in the world, they turned their back on Apple.

是的。这太惊人了。但现在听着，我要拿出一个苹果产品，打开一个特定的应用。我希望这能让你微笑。当你看到我有它，而且不仅拥有它，还有两种形式。好了。打开我的家。开始吧。是的。所以，我做的就是 Nest。这真是天才。绝对的天才，因为它简单。这就是所谓的拍脑门时刻。哎呀。我们一生中，几乎这个房间里的每个人，好吧，可以说我们一直生活在失败中。我们生活在一个可悲的、从未质疑过的系统中。

Yeah. It's astonishing. But now listen, I'm going to get out an Apple product and I'm going to fire up a particular app. And this is going to, I hope, will make you smile. When you see that I have it, and not only have it, but I have it in two forms. There we go. Put my home on. Here we go. Yes. So, what I've done is this is Nest. Now this is genius. Absolute genius because it's simple. It's what they call a palm-slapping moment. Duh. For all our lives, almost everyone in this room, well, let's say we've lived with failure. We've lived with a pathetic system that we've never questioned.

那么，让我们回到你离开苹果、组建家庭并建造房子的时候。

So, let's go back to your leaving Apple, having a family, and building a house.

是的，没错。所以在 2006 或 2007 年，我开始为我们的家庭设计一栋房子，我希望它是最节能、最环保、最互联的家。当时我们正在开发 iPhone，当我拿到 iPhone 时，我说，‘当你把它拿在手里开始使用时，你会想，等等，这将成为世界的界面——不是今天，但也许在 10 年内。我们周围的一切将如何改变？我们的汽车、我们身上、我们的工作以及我们的家将如何改变？’因此，通过这个设计，我们想打造一个节能的家，但也想打造一个拥抱 iPhone 和即将到来的智能手机革命的互联之家。通过这个过程，我拆解了——我基本上试图成为一名建筑师，与建筑师合作但自己成了建筑师，理解了所有的机械系统、电气系统，并重新思考了房屋的建造方式。正是在这个过程中，我偶然发现了恒温器的问题。

Yes, absolutely. So back in 2006 or 2007, I started designing a house for our family, and I wanted to be the most energy-efficient, greenest, connected home. We were working on the iPhone at the time, and when I had the iPhone in my hands, I said, 'When you put this in your hand and you start using it, you're like, wait a second, this is going to be the interface to the world—not today, but maybe in 10 years. How will everything around us change? How will the world around us change in our cars, on our person, in our work, and also in our home?' And so through this design, we wanted to make an energy-efficient home, but we also wanted to make a connected home that embraced the iPhone and the smartphone revolution to come. And through that, I tore apart—I basically tried to become an architect, worked with architects but became an architect, understood all the mechanical systems, electrical systems, and rethought the way a home would be created and built. And through that, that's where I stumbled on the thermostat issue.

是的。我在研究后发现，在美国，恒温器控制着你每年能源账单的 50% 以上，这让我难以置信。在英国，每年的能源费用中 60% 到 66% 用于供暖，而美国还有制冷。这里只有供暖，对吧？所以你花在能源上的每一美元中，66% 都用于供暖。而大多数人——这让我震惊的另一件事是——在英国，只有 40% 的人实际上拥有恒温器。

Yeah. I couldn't believe, after I was doing the research, that the thermostat controls over 50% of your annual energy bill in the US. Annual energy here in Britain it's 60 to 66%, and we have cooling in the US. Here you just have heating, right? So 66% of every dollar you spend on energy goes into your heating. And most people—and this was the other thing that astonished me—was that here in Britain, only 40% of people actually have thermostats.

是的，我知道是 40%。我听到每个人都在抱怨能源价格，说它们涨疯了等等，但他们没有基本的产品来控制能源使用，并给他们反馈，帮助他们节省能源，最终在某种程度上帮助拯救地球。

Yeah, I knew it's 40%. And I hear everybody here screaming about energy tariffs and how they're going crazy and everything, but they don't have the basic products to control that energy usage and to give them feedback on how they're doing to try to help them save energy and ultimately help save the planet at some point.

我的意思是，如果你没有过这样的经历——在时钟调整后（反正差了一个小时），盯着恒温器或锅炉控制器，上面显示 CH 代表中央供暖，HW 代表热水，你按来按去，然后靠——请举手。没有人举手，因为我们都经历过这种糟糕的情况。

I mean, put your hands up if you have not had the experience of peering at a thermostat or a boiler control after especially the clocks have changed, so it's an hour out anyway. And you're staring at it and it's going CH for central heating and HW for hot water, and you're pressing things and oh s**t. And you just, you know, nobody's put their hand up because we've all been in this miserable position.

嗯，我的意思是，我在这里不是——我不是在推销。我没有 Nest 的股份。它已经被收购了。

Well, I mean, I'm not here—I'm not on a take. I don't have shares in Nest. We were already purchased.

是的。抱歉。没错。他卖掉了——谷歌以 32 亿美元收购了它。你会很高兴知道，当时你有大约 320 名员工，相当于每人 1000 万美元。这真是令人印象深刻。

Yeah. Sorry. Exactly. He sold—Google bought him for $3.2 billion. You'd be pleased to know, when you had I think 320 employees, which is something like $10 million an employee. That's pretty damned impressive.

我不知道你是否能看到这个。你看。是的，你能看到。上面显示 18。那是我在伦敦公寓的一个锅炉。我可以这样操作。抱歉。你应该——好了。哦，是的，它在动。哦，我没有。抱歉。是我的错。应该能用的。哦，好了。现在是空白。好了。现在我把温度调到 21。现在是冬天，我出门在外，正在飞行。比如我在机场，我想我一直关着中央供暖，省了不少钱，但我快到家了，所以我想让温度达到 24 或 22。我只需要做这些。无论我在哪里，什么都不用做。Nest 系统会打开我的锅炉，直到达到那个温度并保持，我在严冬中到家时温暖如春。就这么简单。更棒的是，当你离开去度假时，它会注意到你不在家，然后自动调低到你设定的节能温度。所以你几乎不用去摆弄它。你不需要——

I don't know if you can see this. There you are. Yes, you can. So that says 18 on it. That's one of my boilers in a flat in London. I can just go like that. Sorry. You should—there you go. Oh yeah, there it is moving around. Oh, I haven't. Sorry. It's my fault. It should work. Oh, there we go. It's blank now. There we go. So, now I put it up to 21. So, it's winter and I'm away and I'm flying. I'm in, say, an airport and I think I've had the central heating off, saving money all this time, but I'm about to arrive home, so I want it to be at 24, 22. That's all I have to do. Nothing else wherever I am. And the Nest system will turn my boiler on until it gets to that temperature and keep it at that temperature, and I arrive home warm as toast in the middle of a really hard winter. It's that simple. And even better, when you left on your vacation, it noticed you were away. It noticed you weren't home and it turned itself down to the energy-saving temperature you set. So little, you don't have to go and fiddle with it all. You don't have to do—

没错。你不需要这样做。而且如果你只是——你知道，通常大多数人都知道自己早上或晚上喜欢什么温度。只需这样做 3 天，它就会自动编程。

Exactly. You don't have to do this. And if you just, you know, typically most people know what temperature they like it in the morning or the evening, whatever. After just 3 days of doing that, it programs itself.

它实际上会学习你的习惯和模式，所以你根本不用操心。我们现在已经节省了超过 20 亿千瓦时的电力，就在北美。20 亿，相当于全美国 30 分钟的用电量。而我们的产品只进入了不到 1% 的美国家庭，这太惊人了。

So it actually just learns your habits and your patterns. So you don't even have to worry about it. And what we've been able to do now is already save over two billion kilowatt hours in North America right now. Two billion. That's the amount of energy the US uses in 30 minutes. The entire US in 30 minutes. And we are only in less than 1% of US homes. And that's astonishing.

这绝对值得热烈鼓掌，太了不起了。而且不仅仅是恒温器，还有烟雾报警器。

That does deserve a hell of a round of applause. That's simply amazing. Amazing. And also it's not just thermostats. There are smoke alarms as well.

对，烟雾报警器和一氧化碳探测器。

Yes. Smoke alarms and CO detectors.

所以，总的来说，你开始看到它渗透进我们依赖和使用的物品中。

So, generally speaking, you're beginning to see this creep into the things that we rely on and use.

它们大多不受待见。这些是我们从小用到大的产品，从 70 年代或 80 年代就没变过。为什么没人爱它们？因为没人追求完美。它们只是商品，因为我们不了解这些东西。通常安装工说“你需要这个”，你就买了。你不会像买智能手机那样去挑选。所以我们做的另一件事是确保人们意识到这些选择，去智能手机消费者购物的地方，把产品放在那里，让他们了解并明白，有技术可以帮他们省钱、更安全。它们应该像智能手机一样被珍视。

Well, they're mostly unloved. These are the same products we grew up with. They haven't changed since the '70s or '80s. And why haven't they been loved? No one has tried to strive for perfection. They're just kind of commodity because we don't learn about those things. Usually, just the installers say, 'This is what you need.' You don't shop for them like you do for smartphones. So the other thing we changed is we wanted to make sure people are aware of these options and go to where the smartphone shopper shops and make sure it's right there so they can be educated and understand that there's actually technology that can allow them to save money, be safer and those things. And it should be as cherished as that smartphone.

对，你显然是个停不下来的人。我相信待会儿观众提问时，大家会问你的预测。但你现在有没有在做什么不同领域或类似领域扩展的事情，能让我们兴奋？

Yeah. You're obviously someone who doesn't stop. And I'm sure when we come to audience questions, people will ask for your prognostications. But is there something you're working on at the moment that is in a different area or in the similar area that's expanding that is going to excite us?

是的，我们正在研究家里各种不受待见的产品。我们的路线图很大。幸运的是，我们现在属于 Google，能够加速发展。你提到 320 名员工，接下来几个月我们会增加到 1000 人。所以我们有很多事情在做，迫不及待想展示给世界。

Yeah, we're looking at all kinds of different unloved products in the home. So we have a large roadmap. And luckily, now that we're with Google, we're actually able to accelerate. So now you talked about 320 employees. We're now going up to a thousand over the next few months. So we have a lot of things going on, and we can't wait to show the world.

你开过 Google 的自动驾驶汽车吗？

Have you driven the Google car?

你是说，它开过我？

You mean, has it driven me?

没错，就是这个意思。是的，当然。我坐过好几次。有个好朋友就是项目负责人之一。这绝对是变革性的。

Exactly. That's the point. Yes, absolutely. I've been in it multiple times. And a close friend was actually one of the people heading that up. And it's absolutely transformational.

是的，它真的会开车。而我是个爱开车的人，来自底特律。我经常在赛道上开车。坐进那辆车时，感觉太棒了。我们开过赛道，也开过拥堵路段。它开得和我见过的任何专业司机一样安全。

Yes. It actually drives. And I'm a driver. I like to drive cars. I'm from Detroit, right? So I drive around on a racetrack and what have you. And when you're in it, it's actually amazing. We've driven racetracks with it. We've been in high-traffic areas with it. And it is as safe a driver as any professional driver I've been with.

我觉得有个有趣的点。人们听说后会觉得，开车的乐趣被剥夺了。但就像定速巡航，你只需把脚放在踏板上或握住方向盘，就又掌控了。而且它设计得格外安全。如果它看到前方有两三个行人可能过马路，它无法判断他们是否真的要过，就会建议你接管，因为它信任你作为人类经过数亿年进化出的眼睛和大脑，胜过它自己只进化了五年的系统。

I mean, there's a fascinating thing. People hear about it and they think, well, the pleasure of driving is taken away from you. But of course, like cruise control, you only have to put your foot on a pedal or grasp a control, and it's yours again. But also, it's built in to be extra safe. So if it sees ahead of itself two or three pedestrians who are about to cross the road, it can't tell if they may be about to cross. They may not be. It will suggest you take over because it trusts your instincts as a human being with eyes and a brain that have evolved over hundreds of millions of years over its own that have been evolved over five years.

没错。我们总说热爱驾驶，但你今天肯定不喜欢开车过来。很多时候我们以为喜欢周日下午兜风，但日常驾驶大多是乏味的。大多数人在该专注的时候却在发短信，酿成事故。所以我们需要一种自然的融合，让技术在那些非人性化的交通场景中为我们工作。

Exactly. And you know, we talk about the love of driving, but I'm sure you didn't love driving here today. No, I didn't. There are many times when we think we love driving on that Sunday afternoon, but there's a lot of mundane everyday driving. And most people when they're in those situations, when they should be paying attention, they're usually texting and setting themselves up for a real accident. So there's got to be a natural blend here of how we can have technology work on our behalf when we're in these non-humanistic traffic situations.

是的。人们心里会冒出各种伦理道德问题，可能是因为需要一代人或半代人来适应任何替代现有技术的新事物。在 Hay 这里尤其如此。过去 20 年，电子书的概念遭遇了强烈反对、彻底怀疑、勉强接受、完全拥抱，各种态度都有。我们同意，从 1450 年古腾堡开始的纸质书有乐趣、有气味、有愉悦感，没人想剥夺。但我们也承认，在飞机上带书很麻烦。如果只是度假或出差时阅读，带 Kindle 或 iPad 方便得多。但说到汽车，人们就会想：“第一辆 Google 汽车造成死亡怎么办？”但我们一生都受制于保险业的规则。我强烈怀疑——如果错了，五年后你可以反驳我——保险业会对开 Google 汽车或类似车辆的人每年收 100 英镑，而开非 Google 汽车可能每年要 2000 英镑。

Yes. And there are all kinds of ethical and moral issues that seem to arise in people's minds, possibly because it takes a generation or half a generation to become used to the idea of anything that replaces a technology we're used to. So you know, here at Hay, it's particularly true. Over the past 20 years, the idea of electronic books has been met with fierce opposition, total skepticism, reluctant acceptance, total embrace, mixture of both, and so on. We agree that printed books from Gutenberg in 1450 onwards have a joy and a smell and a pleasure that one wouldn't take away from them. But we also accept that to carry them on a plane is a hell of a bore. If you're just going to read on a holiday or a business trip, it's a lot easier to take a device like a Kindle or an iPad. But when it comes to things like cars, people think, 'Oh, now what's going to happen when the first Google car causes a death?' But of course, all our lives we've been subject to the imperatives of the insurance industry. And I have a very strong suspicion, and you can get back at me in five years if I'm wrong, that the insurance industry, if you drive a Google car or similar, will charge you £100 a year, but if you drive a non-Google car might be £2,000 a year.

没错。因为坦白说，它会更安全。你可能会说“这不合理”，但几乎所有事故都是人为错误。Google 汽车可能偶尔出错，但概率极小。保险公司只关心精算表，如果你看过比利·怀尔德的杰作《双重赔偿》就会知道。

Exactly. Because frankly, it will be safer. And you may say, 'But that can't be right.' But almost all accidents are human error. And there may be the odd Google error, but it will be so small. And all that insurance companies care about, as you will know if you've watched Billy Wilder's great masterpiece, Double Indemnity, are the actuarial tables.

没错。不管红头发的人为什么更容易出事故，只要这是经验事实，你就无法反驳。相信我，你可能第一次在这里听到，或者你早就知道。但这就是为什么自动驾驶汽车会接管道路，因为我们负担不起其他方式。如果你非常有钱，可以买一辆阿斯顿·马丁，在赛道上开得很开心，让 Google 汽车发出“呜”的声音，而 Google 汽车一听到引擎声就会自动让路。

Exactly. And it doesn't matter why it's true that people with red hair have more accidents or why it's true. If it is simply an empirical fact, you cannot buck it. And believe me, you may have heard it here first, maybe you already knew it. But that's the reason why automatically driving cars like Google cars will take over the roads, because we won't be able to afford any other way. Well, if you're very rich, you'll be able to have an Aston. You drive it around the track and you have really good fun, and you'll make Google drivers go 'woo' and the Google driver will automatically get out of the way as soon as it hears the engine note.

我觉得人们如此在意驾驶很有趣，他们想要那种控制感。

I find it very fascinating that people care about driving, right? They want to have that control.

但如果回到汽车刚出现的时候，那还是马车的时代，对吧？那时由别人驾驶马车，而你则想坐在劳斯莱斯或宾利的后座，让别人载着你。所以我认为这里会有一个轮回——驾驶者不一定是人类，而是人类与计算机协同工作。至于你提到的保险问题，现在在美国，你可以在车里装一个小盒子，它连接到全球所有汽车都有的一个端口。如果你允许，保险公司会给你这个设备。你把它插进去，它会收集数据并发送给保险公司，显示你的驾驶习惯。如今在美国，如果你允许他们这样做，你实际上可以节省 10% 到 15% 的保费，因为他们可以监控你的车，证明你是一个好司机。他们不再只是等待警察来发现你，你可以主动展示这一点。而且这已经在发生了。事实上，我们的烟雾探测器也会带来同样的变化——他们想确保你家里有这类设备。所以他们会给你保险折扣，因为我们可以告诉他们设备确实在你家中，并且正在保护你，从而降低保险费用。这种可见性越强，风险就越被消除，精算师们只需计算数字即可。

But if we go back when driving first started, it was about carriages, right? And someone else drove the carriage and you wanted to be in back of the Rolls-Royce or the Bentley and have someone drive you. So, I think we're going to have a full circle event here where it's not necessarily a human, but it's a human plus a computer working in tandem to drive. The other thing that's to your point about insurance is now in the US, you can actually put a little box inside of your car and it hooks up to a port that all cars have around the world and if you allow the insurance company will give it to you. You put it in there and it takes the data and it sends it to the insurance company of how you drive. And you can actually save today in the US if you allow them to do this 10 to 15% on your insurance because they can actually monitor your car and show that you're actually a good driver. They just don't wait for the police to find you. You can actually show it. And it's happening right now. In fact, with our smoke detectors, that's the same thing that's going to happen is that they want to make sure you have these kinds of devices in your home. So they will give you a discounted insurance because we can tell them that it's actually in your home and it's actually protecting you so that we can reduce the insurance. So more of this visibility that happens the more the risk is taken out and the actuarials just do their numbers.

我有个特别的煎培根方法，结果总是发出哔哔哔哔哔的声音，非常烦人。我应该转向另一个伦理问题，虽然不一定是你的领域，但我知道你思维开阔。这个问题更偏向生物学。你可能知道，在以色列和其他地方，他们一直在尝试解决一个我确信你关注过的问题——另一个从未被解决的技术难题，那就是科学家所说的电容，或者通俗地讲，电力存储。实际上，电池在 30、40、50、70 年里几乎没有变化。在我的职业生涯中，25 年里只经历了一次电池革命，而且就在最近。大约每 30 年我们才会看到存储能力的巨大提升或某种戏剧性的阶跃变化。所以，我们确实有一些东西在地平线上。我们不一定用电池，而是考虑一种叫做超级电容的东西，实际上是基于石墨烯的超级电容。石墨烯是一种碳的形式，只有单个原子厚度的碳，可以非常有效地存储电荷。所以，不是装电池，而是装一个电容器。电容器很像你的油箱——你可以非常快速地往里面注入电荷。不像电池需要几个小时才能充满，你可以直接把能量灌进去，然后就可以上路了。但在石墨烯和这些超级电容出现之前，电容器只能存储非常少的电荷。有了石墨烯，现在你可以做到几百倍、几千倍的容量，而且没有电池那样的记忆效应和化学问题。显然，这还非常初期，但我们希望最终能拥有这些超级电容。现在每个人仍在研究电池技术，但如果我们能攻克这个难题，我们至少可以让手机和其他产品续航超过一天，甚至可能实现真正的电动汽车，以及真正的风能和太阳能存储——当太阳不照耀、风不吹的时候。这些就是存储技术能够实现的东西，它将极大地改变我们的生活方式。是的，向着更好的方向。

I have a particular way of frying bacon that always results in beep beep beep beep beep which is extremely annoying. I should move on to another ethical point which is not necessarily yours but I know you're a wide thinker. And that's sort of more biological if you like. As you probably know in Israel and in other places they've been coming up and trying to address one of the problems that I'm sure you've looked at which is another technical problem that has never been solved. It's been looked at hugely and that is what scientists would call capacitance and one would call the storage of power. That really batteries have hardly changed over 30, 40, 50, 70 years. In my career, we've only had one battery revolution in literally 25 years. And it's about right now, but it's about every 30 years that we see an utter increase or some dramatic step change in storage. And so we do have some things on the horizon. We do have instead of batteries necessarily, we're looking at things called ultra capacitors actually graphene based ultra capacitors. Graphene being a form of carbon, a one atom thick carbon that actually can store charge very very effectively. And so instead of putting a battery in, you put basically a capacitor. And what a capacitor is, it's very similar to your gas tank. You can just dump charge into it very very quickly. Unlike a battery which takes hours to charge, dump the energy right into it and then you can go off on your way. Except the problem before graphene and these ultra capacitors, the capacitors could store very very little charge. With graphene now you can do hundreds, thousands X and there isn't the memory issue like the batteries and all the chemicals and those things. Now obviously this is still very very nascent but we're hopeful that maybe we'll get these ultra capacitors. Now, everyone is still working on battery technology, but if we can crack this, we can at least get more than one day on our cell phones and those products, but we could actually see electric cars. We could see real wind and solar storage, right? When the sun's not shining and the wind's not blowing. These are the kind of things that storage technology can enable that is going to dramatically change the way we live. Yeah. For the better.

好了，我希望在座各位都看到了，托尼对参与技术本身的热情远高于成为赚大钱的企业怪兽——尽管事实上他确实是个企业怪兽。但我相信你们也感受到了，他在智力上对技术、未来以及社会对技术的反应，还有文学，都充满迷恋。实际上，我本应强调这一点：音乐和文学对他极其重要，还有艺术收藏。所以，你们与这个我常称之为欧洲最聪明的观众群体在一起，会感到非常自在。我相信他们会有问题。我们还有大约一刻钟，稍微少一点。所以，我们将调亮灯光，请举手，会有人把麦克风递给你。我们看到那边有位穿黑袖子的朋友，麦克风正在过来。如果你有下一个问题，请举手。另一位穿黑袖子的朋友，边缘那位。那么，第一个问题给托尼。

Well, I hope you all here have seen that Tony is much more excited about being involved in technology than he is in being a corporate monster making huge sums of money. Although, as it happens, he is a corporate monster making. But I'm sure you've also grasped that he is intellectually fascinated by technology and the future and society's responses to it and literature. In fact, I ought to have made that point. Music and literature are hugely important to him. And also art collection. So, you're very much at home with an audience that I have always described as the most intelligent audience you could find in Europe. And they, I'm sure, will have questions. We've got about a quarter of an hour, slightly under. So, we're going to raise the lights, wave your hands, and someone will get a microphone to you. We can see someone with a black sleeve there and microphone coming to you. And if you could put a hand up if you have got the next question. Another black sleeve there. That one on the edge and then so yes first question for Tony.

非常感谢你精彩的演讲。显然，在你所说的这个美丽新世界里，人类抵抗是徒劳的。但我想知道，你是否能预见一个时刻——这个问题是给托尼的——当你所说的设备成为我们人类的一部分时，实际上当你提到芯片之类的东西被融合时。一个生物电子系统。仿佛是的。这些事情正在发生，在实验室里。人们在拿自己做实验。现在各种事情都在进行。实际上，现在已经有芯片，你可以把细胞培养在上面，它们可以相互作用，并通过细胞在两个芯片之间传输数据。所以这些事情正在发生。它们还非常遥远。但没错，你确实能看到这些东西。你知道有一个叫奇点大学的地方，他们探索这类话题。目前还没有什么实质性的成果，除了可能——你们很多人可能知道——我们给动物植入芯片用于追踪之类的事情。但它正在到来，不过在我们行业内还远未成为日常思考。

Thank you very much for a fascinating talk. Clearly in this brave new world that you're talking about, human resistance is futile. I'm wondering though if you can foresee a time, and this question is for Tony, when the devices you're talking about become part of us as human beings, so actually when you say chips and things are actually melted. A biological electronic system. As if. Yes. These things are happening. They're happening in labs. People are experimenting on themselves. There's all kinds of these things going on right now. And there's actually chips today that they actually you have a chip and then you can actually grow cells on top of and they can interact and move data between two chips with cells. So these things are happening. They're very very far out. But yes, you can actually see these things. You know there's a place called Singularity University where they explore these kinds of topics. There's nothing really that's happened yet except possibly where we you know many of you might know of chips that we implant in animals or what have you for tracking and those kinds of things but it is coming but it's not yet anywhere near everyday thought inside of our industry.

我记得我父亲在我很小的时候对我说过……当他作为一名年轻物理学家学习时，我本来会成为美国人，因为他被邀请去普林斯顿高等研究院，研究他的论文课题——那后来成为了半导体，再后来变成了硅芯片。我记得他跟我谈到其他材料，砷化镓是其中之一，然后他说，当然，你可能会想，也许你会观察自然，说你会用一种液体，利用电解——这是一种非常高效的充电方式——然后你构建它，你会得到一种非常柔软的材料……然后你会突然发现，你造出了一个大脑。

I remember my father saying to me when I was really quite young he got his... when he studied as a young physicist I was going to be American because he was asked to go to Princeton, the Institute of Advanced Studies, to work on what was his thesis subject which was what was to become semiconductors and then become silicon chips. And he, I remember him talking to me about other materials, gallium arsenide was one, and then he said of course you'd think really that maybe you'd look at nature and say you would have a sort of liquid and use electrolysis which is a very efficient way of charging things and you'd build it and you'd have a soft material that was very... and then you'd suddenly discover that you'd made a brain.

And that is pretty much the way it's going. I think you'll see more and more technology that is kind of proto or crypto biological. There's a company that Google just bought called DeepMind, actually from the UK, and it can simulate and learn itself how to play video games. You should go on the web and look at this. Literally, it has learned how to play video games better than any human. And it learns in literally five or six minutes. It doesn't know anything about the game and knows just about the score. After that, it runs many iterations and it can play that game in 15 minutes, 30 minutes better than any human ever has. So these things are coming. They're not necessarily where the biological has met the electronic, but it literally is an electronic representation of learning.

Well, wonderful. Who's our next question over there?

Hi there. I'm from that sort of bridge generation that loves the iPod and the iPad and the storage of music and being able to listen to everything. But I also remember record stores and I remember getting excited at 9:00 in the morning when a new album was going to come out and nobody else would have it and I would be the one listening to it and that collective shared experience. My question is, is somebody like you allergic to nostalgia?

Actually, very much not. You know, when I read books, I read physical books because screens are in front of me all of the time. I want to get away from it. To me, it's actually like a special place I can go and it's a full visceral experience. You can smell the book, you can touch it, you have lots of senses when you're reading, and less distraction. Even if we read on these devices, some notes pop up, your friend's here, there's a notification, it takes you away and it doesn't allow your mind to get very deep in the experience of translating those words into images. So for me, I really do feel the nostalgia. I do like vinyl, I do like these things, but there's also the convenience that comes with the electronic forms. I think we need to balance those. You know, when we got the telephone, we didn't stop talking to each other face to face. We just happened to be more convenient. But we still travel to meet each other. We still want to talk in these kinds of settings. So I don't think we're going to lose it. It's going to change. We just have to ask the right questions. We have to continue to make sure that we're not losing our humanity with all this technology. Sometimes an escalator is good. Sometimes the stairs are good. We're always going to have staircases and we're always going to have escalators and lifts. I suppose the idea that one thing will get rid of another is false. In fact, there's been a big rise in the popularity of vinyl.

I miss that echo or sort of pre-echo you used to hear of a record that you played a huge number of times, whether it was your favorite Rossini or Abbey Road. You heard 'Come Together' just begin before it began because the needle had worn it so much, and you knew which track was next, so it had to be in the right order. Now you have all these playlists and you hear 'Here Comes the Sun' followed by something completely other, and you think that's wrong. It's an insult to the way the Beatles put together their playlist. But the fact is, you don't have to surrender. You can live a life that's both digital and non-digital.

Absolutely. The fact is we can have both. It's wonderful.

Okay. So, first of all, thank you very much for an incredibly enlightening talk. My question to you is: what plays a greater influence in design or the future of design—the will of the designer or the barriers that technology presents in terms of holding the future of design, at least right now?

Well, you know, there's always a balance. Sometimes you want to design something but the technology is not capable of it, or sometimes the technology is so capable that you actually have to hold yourself back from enabling all of those things. So it's a gentle balance. I call it a creative chaos between these two worlds that you have to draw the line between. That's what great design is. And this is the piece about the iPod, right? The iPod looked great but it also worked well, and it was that combination and teamwork that made sure we balanced it. We could have done other things with the product on the first go-around, but we didn't because what I learned, especially at General Magic, we created the iPhone 20 years too soon. We had electronic mail, we had downloadable apps, we had all kinds of electronic communications and things. We even had music on it. But it was 20 years too early. It was not until we just said, 'Look, this is just a digital version of The Walkman.' Then we added photos, then we added podcasts, then we added video. Each of those things allowed society to adapt and embrace it. If we had said it did everything the iPod did or the iPad did in that year, we'd all go, 'I don't think I need that.' But it's our job as designers to lead and to show one change, and then we build upon that. Don't do it all at once. That's why General Magic was a failure. We have to understand how society works, and not just say, 'Here's the best thing ever and you all have to switch.' You don't know you need it. You say, 'Oh, it's so amazing,' but I don't know if I need it because we didn't really solve any one particular problem. We solved lots of things. So we have to be cognizant as designers to make sure we lead and understand the psyche of the times to make sure we're not too far ahead.

I'd also say that things should be human-shaped rather than technology-shaped. Absolutely. Humans, we've taken hundreds of millions of years to evolve, and we are programmed inside to respond to things that are welcoming, that we like to stroke, that are friendly, and not simply the sum of their functions. When the iPhone came out, I remember a lot of people who used Windows Mobile saying, 'Oh, my Windows Mobile can do all of those things.' Well, yes, if you drilled down about four levels into wireless, you could vaguely get there. But it was ugly, it was clunky, it was unpleasant.

你用了另一种触控方式，你知道，必须用触控笔。但那种顺滑、滑动、亲切的感觉，就像在抚摸一只狗。你可能会说，‘这太荒谬了。’但这个东西每天都陪着我。它是一个伙伴，一个朋友。我希望它迷人，希望我喜欢它。当然，它也会让人沮丧，有时候你想把它扔出窗外，因为没信号，或者出了什么故障，或者太烫了，或者电池没电了。但狗也是这样啊。它在地毯上拉屎，做了很糟糕的事。但你爱你的狗，不是因为它会多少把戏，而是因为它可以抚摸，它很可爱，有一种让你无法抗拒的东西。一个好的设计师就能给你这种感觉。这就是乔纳森·艾夫做到的，也是你的团队做到的。我还想说，好的设计能让你用不同的方式看世界，看自己，了解自己或世界。所以这不仅仅是关于那个。当你养狗的时候，你身上会有更多人性。你会想，‘哦，怎么了？’你会更多地思考它。我不是说技术会取代狗，但归根结底，它确实让你以不同的方式看世界，并希望教育你，带你进入另一个层次。

You used a different type of touch, you know, you had to have a stylus. But the smooth, slidy, welcoming. It was like petting a dog. Now, you may say, 'Well, that's ridiculous.' But this is with me every day. It's a companion. It's a friend. And I want it to be charming. I want to like it. Of course, it's frustrating and sometimes you want to throw it out the window because there's no signal or something's gone wrong or it's got too hot or the battery's run out. But that's true of a dog. It's pooped on the carpet. It's done something really bad. But you don't love your dog because it's the sum of the tricks it can do. You love it because it's strokable and it's adorable and there's something about it that you just can't resist. And a good designer is able to give you that. And that's what Jony Ive is and that's what your team was. And I also have to say, good design makes you look at the world differently and look at yourself differently and learn about yourself or learn about the world differently. So it's not just about that. When you have your dog, there's more humanity in you. There's more, you go, 'Oh, what's wrong?' And you think about it more. And I'm not trying to say that technology is going to replace dogs, but at the end of the day, it does make you look at the world differently and hopefully educate you and take you to another level.

太棒了。我们还有更多问题。哦，前排有一位，这里先有一位。所以，之后前排那位。好的。非常感谢。这是一场引人入胜的讨论。你的发明以及许多其他人的发明，除了创造效用之外，还有另一面，那就是我们都在创造关于自己生活的大量数据。先不提 NSA 和政府可能做什么，比如剑桥大学有计算心理学家，他们基于公开的社交活动和其他数据集创建预测模型，这些模型比精算师能做的任何东西都要具体和准确得多。那么，作为发明家，从效益的角度，你如何看待数据保护和隐私之间的权衡？

Brilliant. We got more. Oh, there's one in the front row there and we've got one here first. So, one in the front row after that. Yep. So, thank you very much. This is a fascinating discussion. The inventions that you've made and those of many others have a flip side of the utility that they create which is the amount of data that we're all creating about our lives. And putting aside NSA and what the government might do, there are computational psychologists for example at Cambridge who are creating predictive models based on publicly available social activities and other data sets that are far more specific and correct than anything an actuary might be able to create. So, how do you think as an inventor on the benefit side, how do you think about the trade-offs with data protection and privacy?

嗯，这是一个很好的问题，也是一个我们必须不断自问的问题，因为它不容易解决，也不能被掩盖。每次出现新技术，我们都会有这种担忧。所以我们需要思考这一点。但就 Nest 而言，我们在你的家里，一个非常私密的地方，我们希望确保你的数据就是你的数据，对吧？我们尽最大努力保护这些数据的安全。所以进行这样的对话很好，我们必须意识到这些问题，但归根结底，技术可以被用于好的或坏的目的。我们相信，就像我们谈到的 20 亿千瓦时一样，如果没有这类技术，我们就无法帮助社会，无法克服全球面临的一些重大挑战。所以我认为，我们不仅需要平衡个人隐私和安全、家庭隐私和安全，还需要考虑地球的更大利益。这些需要结合起来，我们需要进行这样的对话。但作为技术专家、产品人员，我们也必须保持开放和透明，参与讨论，确保你明白我们也是人，不是试图从每个人身上榨取一切的疯狂怪物。所以谢谢你的问题，我们确实感受到了当今隐私和安全问题在这些产品中的重要性。

Well, it's a wonderful question and it's a question that we have to keep asking ourselves because it's not something that can be easily solved or pushed under the rug. Every time there's a new technology, we always have this concern. And so, we need to think about that. But as far as Nest goes, we're in your home, a very intimate place, we want to make sure your data is your data, right? And we make sure we try to secure that data in the best way we possibly can. So it's great to have the conversation and we have to be aware of the issues, but at the end of the day, technology can be either used for good or bad. And we believe just like we talked about 2 billion kilowatt hours, if we didn't have this type of technology, we would not be able to help society and help us get over some of the major challenges we have in the globe. So I think we need to also balance not just personal privacy and security and family privacy and security, but we also have to think about the greater good for the planet as well. And these things need to come together and we need to have this conversation. But we as technologists, as product people, we also have to be open and transparent and be a part of that discussion to make sure that you understand that we're also humans and we're not trying to be some crazy monster trying to suck everything out of each individual here. So thank you for the question, but we definitely do feel the issues of the day of privacy and security in these kinds of products.

是的，这是一个好问题，以防有人没有完全理解它的意思，因为你谈到了数据集和精算表等等，可能听起来有点——不是要冒犯你——但只是想稍微展开一下。我给你举一个五年前的例子，那就是 Twitter，我对它有点了解。我记得一位好莱坞高管告诉我，Twitter 第一次能够为他们提供非常有用的信息，价值数百万英镑。你可能知道，好莱坞电影在美国是周五上映。然后周一早上，传统上他们会统计全美的票房收入。那个首映周末，正如它被称为的，决定了电影的成功以及主演明星的购买力。它还会告诉他们要印刷多少张 DVD，因为从首映周末他们就能知道电影有多火。通过 Twitter，他们能够使用算法，一些小程序，检查 Twitter 公开可调查的部分，也就是所谓的 API，他们可以接入其中，然后他们能判断出，比如在德卢斯，人们对蝙蝠侠系列电影的特定部分不感兴趣，因此可以在更少的影院上映，节省一些印刷和广告费用，即所谓的 P&A。但在美国的另一个地区，人们似乎对此非常兴奋。而且算法还能检测出讽刺。‘哦，当然，我会去看那部电影。’他们可以从那个人之前的推文中判断出那是讽刺。而另一个人说，‘我肯定会去看那部电影。’他们就知道那是真话。现在，五年过去了，这变得更加微妙。所以，从某种意义上说，这对某些人来说一直非常非常令人担忧。我们还有时间再问一个问题。

Yes, and it was a good question and just in case anybody didn't fully sort of get what it was about because you talked about data sets and actuarial tables and so on, it might have seemed not meaning to patronize you but just to unfold it a bit. An example that I would give you which is now five years old is Twitter which is something I know a bit about and I remember a Hollywood executive telling me that for the first time Twitter was able to give information for them which was incredibly useful worth millions of pounds. Now, you may know that when a Hollywood movie opens, it opens on a Friday in America. And then on Monday morning, the tradition was that they would be going all over the box office take around America. And that opening weekend, as it's called, determined both the success and the buying power of that star who opened it. And it would tell them exactly how many DVDs to print because from that opening weekend they would know how big of a hit they had. Twitter, they were able to use algorithms, little programs that inspected the openly investigatable aspect, the API as it's called of Twitter that they could plug into it and they could tell that in say Duluth they were not interested in this particular section of the franchise of the Batman movie and therefore they could have it in a few fewer cinemas and save a bit of money on print and advertising as it's called P&A. But in this other area in America, they seem to be very excited about it. And the algorithm could detect sarcasm. 'Oh, sure. I'm going to see that movie.' They could tell from previous tweets that guy had made that that was sarcastic. Whereas somebody else is going, 'I'm sure going to see that movie.' They'd know that that was the truth. Now, that's got even more subtle since that five years. So, this is very, very worrying in a sense for some people all this time. We've got time for one more question.

谢谢你，托尼。你在整个职业生涯中一直具有颠覆性，出色地、建设性地颠覆。你刚才描述的储能技术可能会颠覆比以往任何东西都大的东西，那就是化石燃料和碳氢化合物。我们需要……你预计他们会如何反应？

Thank you, Tony. You've been disruptive, magnificently, constructively disruptive all your professional life. What you just described with energy storage could disrupt something much bigger than you've ever disrupted before, which is fossil fuels and hydrocarbons. And we need to... How would you expect them to react?

我完全同意。嗯，在生活中，一个行业里总有进步者，也有落后者。我们现在实际上正在与能源公司合作。事实上，在英国，我们与 npower 合作；在美国，我们与 30 家不同的能源供应商合作，他们正在接纳我们。他们实际上在说，归根结底，这些是客户。我们需要确保他们满意。很多这些进步的公司，他们不想被视为坏蛋公用事业公司。

I absolutely agree. Well, in life, there are always progressives in an industry and also the laggards in the industry. And we're actually working with energy companies today. In fact, here in Britain, we're working with npower; in the US, we're working with 30 different energy providers, and they're embracing us. They're actually saying, look, at the end of the day, these are customers. We need to make sure that they're happy. A lot of these progressive companies, they don't want to be seen as bad guy utilities.

世界上大多数公用事业公司都不受信任。人们不信任它们，因为基本上就是你收到账单，然后必须付款，你对任何事情都没有控制权。

Most utilities in the world are not trusted. People do not trust them because it was just literally that you got the bill and you had to pay. You had no control over anything.

他们明白，尤其是在竞争激烈的市场（比如这里的能源市场）中，他们需要维持业务，并吸引和留住客户。我真正担心的是那些垄断性的能源公司，也就是受政府监管的那些。在英国，我知道你们在电价等方面存在问题，但你们确实有一个竞争市场，通过这个竞争市场，你可以进行选择。幸运的是，随着各种新产品和服务的出现，他们实际上会在很多方面接受它们。因此，在未来三到四年里，你会看到关于消费者这一具体领域的巨大转变。所以，敬请期待。你会看到巨大的变化，但只有那些进步的公司才会如此。落后者总有一天会赶上，但他们正在接受这一点，我与一些非常优秀的能源公司进行了很好的交流。所以，这一切正在到来，希望比我们今天看到的要快得多。女士们先生们，这一切都来了。这要归功于像托尼这样非凡的远见者，我们非常感谢他。

They understand, especially in a competitive marketplace, energy marketplace here, that they need to stay in business and they need to attract and retain customers. It's the monopolistic energy companies that I'm really worried about, where the ones that are regulated by the government. Here in the UK, I know that you have energy issues with the tariffs and that thing, but you do have a competitive market, and through that competitive market, you're able to select. And luckily, with the different products and services that are coming, they're going to actually embrace them in many ways. And so, you're going to see much transformation over the next three, four years about that specific topic for consumers. So, just stay tuned. You're going to see a big change, but only from the progressives. The laggards will catch up one day, but they are embracing it, and I've had great conversations with some really great energy companies out there. So, it's coming hopefully faster, much faster than we see today. It's all coming, ladies and gentlemen. And it's through extraordinary visionaries and people like Tony, and we're so grateful to him.

它叫 Nest。你只需要一部智能手机和一名持证安装工。安装不贵。你会省下一大笔钱。你会让他赚一些钱，但他不介意。他是一位非常慈善和慷慨的绅士。你们是很好的观众，非常感谢。我们现在得走了。谢谢。

Nest, it's called. All you need is a smartphone and a licensed fitter. It's not expensive to fit. You will save a huge amount of money. You'll make him a certain amount of money, but he doesn't mind. He's a very charitable and generous gentleman. And you've been a wonderful audience, and thanks very much. We have to go now. Thank you.