爱的 36 问：童年搬家与育儿之道

三、二、一、零。你已到达目的地，托尼。我们做过几次了，今天直接跳过开场白，直奔主题。《纽约时报》做过“36 个问题爱上你”，这些问题最能判断两个人是否合拍。所以你很幸运，托尼，我们有一个小时的有趣对话。我觉得很有意思：前几天有人问我，回顾童年，有没有什么——或者说你最想改变童年的一件事是什么？

Three, two, one, zero. You have now arrived at your destination, Tony. We've done this a couple of times, and we will start with the intro, but we're gonna totally skip that today and we're going to dive straight into the New York Times did 36 questions of love. These are the most reading questions to tell whether this person is a match. So lucky you, Tony, we've got a fun hour ahead of us. Which I thought was really interesting: someone asked me the other day, when you reflect on your childhood, is there anything or what one thing would you have changed most in my childhood?

是的，我希望自己不用搬那么多次家。15 年里我换了 12 所学校。我觉得换学校和搬家本身很重要，但没必要 15 年搬 12 次。你知道，6 次就够了，我照样能学到同样的教训，还不用承受那么多麻烦。所以减半就好，该学的我一样都不会少。

Yeah, I think I would have liked to not have had to move so many times. Right, I went to 12 schools in 15 years. I do think it's important to have moved schools and moved town, but I didn't need to go 12 out of 15 years. You know, it could have been six, and I could have learned the same lessons without all the other issues. So it could have been half as much, and I still would have gotten all the lessons learned.

这对你有什么影响？

How did it impact you?

你看，当你总是那个新来的孩子——哈里，你在学校当过新来的吗？

Well, look, when you're always the new kid — have you ever been a new kid in school, Harry?

是的，有过一次。

Yes, I have, once.

你感觉怎么样？

And how did it feel to you?

很残酷。但我反正也没朋友，所以就是从没朋友到再次没朋友。

Brutal. But I had no friends anyway, so it was moving from that no friends to no friends again.

那你猜怎么着？试试 12 次。很难。确实很难。但你也学会了应对，学会了观察眼前发生的一切。你开始发现小圈子到处都一样，只是俚语或时尚不同而已，但总有这些群体，人性在任何地方都一样。所以我从小就看透了这些。然后幸运的是，电脑出现了，电脑成了我无论去哪都带着的朋友。我可以登录 BBS，可以黑进电话系统打免费电话，跟我在其他城市留下的极客朋友聊天。这样我们就能保持联系，因为当时没有网络、没有互联网、没有 Zoom 和社交网络。我们最好的方式就是电话或 BBS，那其实就是文字聊天，仅此而已。

Well, guess what? Try that 12 times. That's tough. Yeah, it's tough. But you also learn to cope, and you also learn to become an observer of what's going on in front of you. You start to see that cliques are the same everywhere; they just might have different slang or fashion or whatever, but there are these groups, and human nature's the same everywhere. So I got to see that growing up. And then, luckily, the computer came, and the computer was my friend that traveled with me wherever I went. I could log on to bulletin board systems (BBSs), I could hack the phone system to make free calls to talk to my friends — the other geek friends I had in other cities that I left. So we could stay connected because we didn't have the web, we didn't have the internet, we didn't have Zoom and social networks. The best we could do was the phone or a bulletin board system, which was just text chat, that's all it was.

那段经历是否影响了你今天作为父亲如何养育孩子——你如何抚养他们，如何对待他们的学业？有影响吗？

Did that experience impact how you raise your children today in terms of fatherhood — how you bring them up, how you treat them in terms of their schooling? Did it impact that?

是的。第一，父母有责任确保教会孩子如何适应变化。世界变化比以往任何时候都快；这和我父母那代人很不一样，他们可以住在同一个城镇，和同一群人上同一所学校，最后差不多也在那里工作。在当今时代，我们将比以往任何时候都更全球化。孩子们必须理解并适应搬家、在不同文化中与不同人、不同语言、不同体系一起工作。所以如果你在他们小时候就教会他们这种韧性，他们长大后就不会那么害怕。当他们因为工作、家庭或其他原因不得不改变时，如果他们从小到大只知道一种生活方式，到了 20 多岁突然要搬家，他们就会不知所措。

Yes. One is, it is incumbent on parents to make sure that they teach their children how to be resilient to change. The world is changing faster than ever; it was very different from my parents' generation, where they could live in the same town, go to the same schools with the same people, and more or less end up working there. In this modern day and age, we are going to be more global than ever. Kids have to understand to be comfortable with moving, working in different cultures with different people, different languages, different systems. So if you can teach them that when they're young and have that resiliency, they'll be less scared as they get older. When they have to make changes for their jobs or their family or who knows what, if they've only grown up knowing one way of being and then they're in their 20s and all of a sudden it's time to move, they'd be like, 'What do I do?'

作为父母，你怎么做到这一点？我最近读到，方法是永远不告诉他们该做什么，因为这能让他们自己做决定、变得自立。你怎么看赋予他们这种能力？

How do you do that as a parent? I read recently it's by never telling them what to do because it makes them self-reliant on their own decisions. How do you think about giving them that ability?

嗯，当我们搬家时——我们从美国搬到巴黎，然后又搬到巴厘岛，一路上把他们送到不同的学校，然后回到巴黎。所以这是一件大事：到处搬家，从硅谷到巴黎再到巴厘岛——我觉得这些地方很不一样。学校非常不同，生活方式也非常不同。所以我认为，有人说过，这一代直升机父母养育了一代孩子。你同意吗？

Well, when we moved — we moved from the US to Paris, and then we moved again to Bali, and put them in school in different schools along the way, and then came back to Paris. So that was a big thing: just moving around and going to Silicon Valley versus Paris versus Bali — those are pretty different places, I think. Very different schools, very different ways of being. And so I think for a sacrament, he said that this generation of helicopter parents has bred a generation of kids. Do you agree with that?

我认为任何被过度溺爱的孩子，如果没有机会自己找到出路——那种有成效的挣扎——而父母总是说“呃，不，他们不会……”这些孩子要么被宠坏了，要么认为一切得来容易。他们没有与现实世界斗争的经历，而他们必须有这种经历。所以你必须把他们扔进那些情境中，并能够为他们提供支持，因为他们不会一帆风顺。我儿子刚去寄宿学校，这是他第一个暑假回来。有学业，但还要学习所有社交事务、自己洗衣服、担心冬天和春天的衣服、怎么弄到食物——所有这些自己生活的技能。去寄宿学校是巨大的一步，他比七个月前成熟多了。

I think any kids that are doted upon too much, who do not have the benefit to find their way — the productive struggle to find their way in the world — and their parents are always like, 'Uh, yeah, no, they don't...' These kids either are spoiled or they think everything comes easy. They don't have that struggle with the real world, and they have to have that. So you have to throw them into those situations and be able to scaffold them, because they're not going to go well. My son just went off to boarding school, and this was his first summer back from boarding school. There was the school work, but then learning all the social stuff, getting his clothes cleaned, worrying about clothes for winter versus spring, how to get food — all that stuff of learning to live by yourself. Going to boarding school is a huge step, and he's a totally more mature kid than he was seven months ago.

托尼，在英国如果你付够钱，你根本不用操心这些。相信我，我记得我的床每天都被熨得整整齐齐。但好吧，你看，这就是另一回事：他们可能离开家时条件更差，但在寄宿学校反而得到更多。拜托，他们又不是住在五星级酒店。那不是真实世界。你在为他们准备什么？伦敦或英国的任何寄宿学校一年要四万英镑——也就是六万五千美元。那你觉得为什么有些孩子长大后成了混蛋？就是“哦，给我一切”。那就别给他们一切。你必须为他们树立榜样。

Tony, if you pay enough in the UK, you don't have to worry about any of that. Trust me, I remember my bed nicely pressed every day. But well, then there you go. See, that's the other thing: they might even leave home where there's less, and they get even more at boarding. So like, come on, they're not living in a five-star hotel. That's not the real world. What are you preparing them for? Any boarding school in London or the UK is forty thousand pounds a year — that's sixty-five thousand dollars. Well, why do you think kids can grow up to be such arseholes? It's like, 'Oh, give me everything.' Well, don't give them everything. You have to set the example for them.

我能问你吗，当你回顾历史，我想到了“特权”这个词，它让我想到——不是坏的意思，而是知道自己会成功。比如我年轻时，即使没有任何优势，我总知道自己会拼命工作，最终做出点什么。你当时知道自己会成功吗？

Can I ask you, when you think about historically, I think about entitlement and that takes me to — not badly, but just knowing you'd be successful. Like when I was younger, even when I had no right, I always knew I would work my ass off and somehow make something. Did you know that you would be successful?

这取决于你如何定义成功。我一直知道自己会创造有价值的东西并赚钱。我知道自己能赚钱，因为二年级或三年级时我有一条鸡蛋路线——我送鸡蛋。所以我到处跑，心想：“天哪，我能卖鸡蛋，能赚钱，还能有某种独立。”我因此上瘾了，然后我越做越多。

It depends on how you define success. I knew that I would build something of value and make money — always. I knew that I could make money because in second or third grade I had an egg route — I was delivering eggs. So I went around and I was like, 'Oh my god, I can sell eggs, I can make money, and I can have some form of independence.' That's what I got hooked on, and then I kept doing more and more of that.

就像，哦，金钱带来独立。我可以尝试不同的事情，你知道吗。所以飞轮就这样开始转动了。然后通过电脑，我发现了所有这些其他的东西。我从三年级起就知道什么是生意了。我当时想，哦，那就是你要做的。所以我从来不是为了找工作。而总是想着，哦，我要去哪里做我想做的事，并从中赚钱，对吧？所以我从小就被这样编程了，以那种方式思考。

Like, oh, money brings independence. I can try different things, you know. And so that's where the kind of flywheel started spinning. And then I just, you know, through the computer, I find all this other stuff. And I knew kind of what a business was since third grade. I was like, oh, that's what you do. So I was never about getting a job. It was always about, oh, where am I going to, you know, do whatever it is I want to do and make money with it, right? And so that's how I, you know, got programmed early on to think that way.

你说过你从来不是为了找工作。你知道吗，当人们读到你的履历时，托尼，他们会觉得，哦，这家伙简直是一路向上。有没有过那么一刻，你心想，哦，这个下一个角色我没预料到，我感觉真的停滞不前了，没有那种一路向上的感觉？

You said it was never about getting a job. Did you know, when one reads your bio, Tony, they go like, oh, this guy is insanely just up and to the right. Was there ever a moment when you were like, oh, like I didn't, this next role I didn't see coming, like I don't, I feel really plateauing, where you didn't feel up and to the right?

嗯，首先你得看看所有事情，但 General Magic 和几乎一些，比如，你知道，高中打工，几份高中打工。但真正在我离开学校后的职业生涯中，甚至在学校期间，除了 General Magic，我创造了我所有的职位。我创造了产品，或者我创造了部门，我创造了团队，不管是什么。所以我总是创造我要去做的事情，除了 General Magic。所以在飞利浦，对吧，我写了商业计划书，展示了产品，然后让他们批准，然后建立团队，建立职位，对吧？然后在苹果，我带着想法来了，你知道，这是 iPod，好的，现在建立团队，建立职位，对吧？然后是 Nest。所以每一次，甚至，你知道，甚至在大学里，当我做自己的半导体生意和软件相关的事情时，我也创造了那些工作。所以我从来没有等别人给我施舍，除了 General Magic。

Well, well, first you have to look at everything but General Magic and almost some, like, you know, high school job, a couple of high school jobs. But really, during my career after leaving school, um, and even during school, I created all my positions except for General Magic. I created the product, or I created the division, I created the team, whatever it was. So I always made the thing I was going to, except for General Magic. So at Philips, right, I wrote the business plan, showed the product, and then got them to sign off and now build the team, build the position, right? And then at Apple, here I come with the idea, you know, and here's the iPod, okay, now build the team, build the position, right? And then Nest. So each time, even, you know, even in college when I was doing my own semiconductor business and software stuff, I created those jobs too. So I've never waited for someone to give me a handout, except for General Magic.

你认为今天对于听众来说，在一家公司、一个企业、一个初创公司内部，这可能吗？你认为有可能创造自己的角色吗，你会如何建议他们？

Do you think that's possible today for people listening, within a firm, within a company, within a startup? Do you think it's possible to just create your own role, and how would you advise them?

嗯，方法是你展示价值。所以你去说，我认为我们应该做这个新事情，对吧？无论是新产品，还是只是一个新流程或新思维方式。因为如果你不这样做，如果你只是等着别人给你东西，他们会认为这是一种单向关系。如果你回来并说，这是我能提供的价值，这是我在我们层面看到的东西，并参与那场对话，也许你会被拒绝很多次，但不要停止，继续尝试。倾听他们，然后根据你得到的反馈不断调整你的想法、计划和演示。如果在某个时候你撞上了墙，就像我在 General Magic 那样，你就离开去做它，对吧？因为这就是大多数大公司里发生的事情：有价值的人，有正确的，嗯，我该怎么说，精力去明确地说，我认为这应该是正确的，然后当权者说，我们不会做。那是完美的出路，出去创办一家初创公司。你知道，你在硅谷的各种大公司里经常看到这种情况。我不得不决定，啊，不，我们不能那样做。好的，我要去创办一家初创公司，对吧？然后你离开去构建它，因为你看到了你能带来的价值或差异化突破，因为你在公司内部看到了所有竞争对手和外面的情况，你会想，你知道，他们并没有真正击中目标。好的，让我们在这里自己构建它。你知道，这是好事。我们现在有比以往更多的工具来做这件事，比如所有免费工具、互联网、虚拟和混合工作环境、在 LinkedIn 上找人等等。就像，你找到人，你知道，就像，哦天哪，实际上比以往更容易。试试在 1990 年，你知道，在 1995 年，那时没有互联网。我的意思是，就像我做的第一集播客，我在 guykawasaki.com 的源代码中找到了 Guy Kawasaki 的电子邮件，然后就这样了。嗯，对吧，Guy 是个希腊人，你知道，很棒的人。我的意思是，他给了我，一个 18 岁的孩子，时间。真是个英雄。

Well, the way is you show value. So you go and say, I think we should be doing this new thing, right? Whether that's a new product, or it could be just a new process or a new way of thinking. Because if you don't, if you just wait for everyone to give stuff to you, they think it's just a one-way relationship. If you come back and you say, here's the value I can offer, here's the things I see at our level, and engage in that conversation, and maybe you'll probably get shot down many times, but don't stop, keep trying. Listen to them, and then keep modulating the ideas and the plans, your presentations, based on the feedback you're getting. And if at some point you just run into a wall, like I did at General Magic, you leave and go do it, right? Because that's what happens in most big companies: people with value and have the right, um, how could I say, energy to literally say, I think this should be right, then you know, the powers that be say, we're not going to do it. That's the perfect way to go spin, go out and start a startup. You know, you see this all the time in various big companies in Silicon Valley. I got to decide, ah, no, we can't do that. Okay, I'm gonna go do a startup, right? And you leave and you go build it, because you see the value you can bring or the differentiating break, because you're inside the big company seeing all the competitors and what's out there, and you're like, you know, they're not really hitting the mark. Okay, let's go over here and build it ourselves. That's, you know, that's the nice thing. And we have more tools than ever now to do that, in terms of all the free tools, the internet, you know, virtual and hybrid work environments, find people on LinkedIn or what have you. Like, you find people, you know, it's like, oh my god, it's actually easier than ever. Try doing it in 1990, you know, in 1995, where there's no internet. I mean, as in the first episode I ever did, I found Guy Kawasaki's email in the source code of guykawasaki.com, and there you go. Um, right, Guy's a Greek guy, you know, great guy. I mean, he gave me, an 18-year-old, time. So what a hero.

听着，我们谈到了孩子们通过奋斗学习。我提到这是另一个《纽约时报》的爱情问题。嗯，但我很感兴趣。我们继续吧。我实际上正在开始一个新的约会节目。这是我进入约会世界的方式。嗯，哦天哪。我。嗯，问题是，我的朋友，Tinder 的 CEO，如果你需要任何帮助。哦，那太好了。那可能是个很棒的第二个嘉宾。嗯，不，我的问题是，嗯，实际上是一个严肃的问题，那就是，当你回顾你的职业生涯时，你学到的最困难但最有价值的教训是什么，你实际上很高兴经历了它，尽管它如此困难？哇，我到底喜欢什么灾难？

Listen, we spoke about kind of children learning through strife. I mentioned this was another New York Times love question. Um, but I'm interested. Let's keep going. I'm actually starting a new dating show. This is my way into the dating world. Um, oh god. Me. Um, the question is, my friend CEO of Tinder, if you need any help. Oh, that was wonderful. That might be a great second guest. Um, no, my question to you is, um, and it's actually a serious one, which is like, when you look at your professional career, what was the most difficult but valuable lesson that you learned, which you're actually really pleased to have gone through, even though it was so difficult? Wow, what disaster did I really love?

嗯，你从中学到最多的是，对我来说，嗯，对我来说，真的是 General Magic 的失败，那是最大的教训，无论是个人还是职业上。嗯，从商业角度，从产品角度。嗯，嗯，就像我说的，个人方面，它是如此，如此令人心痛，以至于花了，你知道，几个月、几年的时间才把自己挖出来并学习。它真的重新启动了我。在某种程度上，个人方面，Tony 的 2.0 版本从那时开始了，或者也许你觉得是 3.0。

Well, you learned the most from, like, for me, it was, well, it was, to me, it was really the failure of General Magic that was the biggest learning, both personally and professionally. Um, from a business perspective, from a product perspective. Um, um, like I said, personally, it was so, it was so gut-wrenching that it took, you know, months, years afterwards to kind of dig myself out of that and learn. And it really restarted me. It was kind of, in a way, version, personally, version 2.0 of Tony started that, or maybe you feel 3.0.

强烈的责任感。所以我知道显然你投入了全部心血。那是你生活的一大部分，但它不像 Nest 那样是你的。为什么你认为作为创始人你感受到了那种强烈的责任感？

Intense responsibility. So I know obviously you put your heart and soul into it. It's a big part of your life, but it wasn't yours like Nest was. Why do you think you felt that intense accountability as a founder?

因为我们肩负使命。我们肩负使命，我们肩并肩一起构建这个东西。所以对我来说，你知道，就像，嗯，你知道，这就是伟大领导者的技能：接受使命和想法，你的，你知道，创始人的想法或团队其他人的想法，然后说，它们现在是你的了，去执行吧，让它成为你自己的，对吧？如果你有一个这样做的领导者，当然在合理范围内，你知道，但允许你去做，尤其是在 General Magic，那里完全是一个沙盒，我可以直接去，我今天要构建这个，今天这个，今天这个，然后你只是，你觉得自己是这个团队的一部分，在做，你知道，一些真正伟大的事情。这很难，你感到被赋能，你知道你有能动性去帮助并给你的英雄留下深刻印象。我不明白你怎么会不对某件事产生那种依恋。你知道，这真的很难。或者显然你只是不在正确的地方，你知道，如果你找不到那种，嗯，使命驱动的工作伦理。

Because we were on a mission. We were on a mission, and the people we were shoulder to shoulder together building this thing. And so for me, you know, it was like, um, you know, that's what the skill of a great leader is: to take the mission and the ideas, your, you know, the founder's ideas or the other people on the team, and just say, they're now yours, go run with it, make it your own, right? And if you have a leader who does that, within reason of course, you know, but allows you to run with it, especially at General Magic, where it was all a sandbox, and I could just go, I'm gonna go build this today, and this today, and this today, and you're just, you feel like you're part of this team doing, you know, something really big. It's hard, and you feel empowered, and you know you have agency to help and impress your heroes. I don't see how you don't, you know, have that kind of attachment to something. You know, it's really hard. Or obviously you're just not in the right place, you know, if you can't find that kind of, um, mission-driven work ethic.

你认为我们今天还有那些使命型操作者吗？我觉得今天我们有更多的雇佣兵环境，无论是关于换工作、换公司。我发现那种强烈的使命视角非常缺乏。你同意吗？

Do you think we still have those missionary operators today? I feel like today we have a lot more of a mercenary environment, be it around switching jobs, switching companies. That intense missionary perspective is very lacking, I find. Do you agree?

不，我认为，我认为，你知道，就像有伟大的领导者也有不那么伟大的领导者，有伟大的公司，不那么伟大的，伟大的员工，不那么伟大的。看看所有情况。这是一个……

No, I think, I think, you know, just like there are great leaders and not so great leaders, are there great companies, not so great, great employees, not so. Look at all cases. It's a...

正态分布，对吧？顶尖的人很少，顶尖的公司也一样。所以有很多麦子，也有很多谷壳，而麦子很稀缺。当然，你能找到伟大的使命驱动型领导者。我经常在我们合作的公司里看到这一点，在未来形态中也是如此。比如，我可以跟你聊聊 Sweep 的 Rachel Delacour，或者波尔图 Smartex 的 Gilberto。我可以聊很多这样的领导者，他们的团队都肩负使命。你走进那里就能感受到。当我感受到这一点，看到不仅是领导者，还有他们周围的团队都充满使命感时，我就会想：“我必须投资他们，因为他们真的相信，真的理解。”前提是他们在运营上做对了所有事情，不是感情用事，而是理性地经营业务。我会说：“这就是我想合作的团队，我怎样才能参与其中？”因为我想成为他们使命的一部分，帮助他们。

Gaussian distribution, right? And the people at the top, it's a small narrow set, right? And companies there as well. So there's a lot of wheat, a lot of chaff, and you know, scarce wheat, so to speak. So of course you can find great mission-driven leaders. I get to see that all the time with the companies that we work with, and you know, in a future shape. So look, you know, I like—here's one like mission-driven: I could talk to about Rachel Delacour at Sweep, or I can talk about Gilberto over at Smartex in Porto. I could talk about all these different leaders that are—and these teams are on a mission. Like, you can feel it when you go in there. And when I feel that, when I see that coming out of not just the leader but the team around them, you're like, "I got to invest in them because they really believe, they really understand." Assuming they've done all the right things, you know, in terms of operationally, and they're not just, you know, emotionally blinded, but they're also rational in how they go about doing their business. I'm like, "This is the team I want to work with. How can I be a part of it?" Because I want to be part of that mission in helping them.

对于正在收听、并希望在自己的团队中激发同样传教士文化的创始人来说，从你合作过的领导者身上，那些最优秀的人做了什么，让你感受到像在 General Magic 时那样的主人翁感和责任感？

For founders who listen and want to inspire the same missionary culture within their team, from the leaders that you've worked with, what did the best do to make you feel the ownership and accountability that you did with the likes of General Magic?

我认为最重要的有几点。第一，没有那种严格的等级制度，消息只能上下传递，也没有部门壁垒。必须有一种真正有趣的人员组合，让不同思想的文化融合在一起。这是第一点。第二，领导者要能识别出别人提出的好想法。他们可能只是尝试，可能接近一个好想法但还在努力，你要说“好，再来更多”，鼓励他们，鼓励想法涌现，鼓励人们。如果你有一个想法，领导者会说：“我希望你让这个想法变得更好，为我们大家。”对吧？所以如果我有想法，我必须把它交出来。你必须有这样的对话，让人们真正感到自己是其中一部分。另一点是，领导者要亲身参与，而不仅仅是委派。他们要深入细节，与不同层级的人交谈。他们能看到问题，并立即解决，当然是在合理范围内。因为通常团队比领导者更早知道问题，他们只是在等领导者采取行动。很多时候，领导者会说：“我今天不处理，下周再说。哦，真头疼，我以后再说。”问题就会拖延，侵蚀团队。所以领导者参与得越多，团队成员看到你参与其中，讨论想法，不害怕在合理范围内改变方向，你们之间就有关系，而不仅仅是委派。这些事情都能激励人。当然，使命也必须对内部人员有意义。不仅仅是赚钱，从来不只是赚钱。而是让世界变得更好，让人们能够围绕它团结起来。因为他们想回家后，如果能的话，和家人、朋友、亲戚谈论这件事，并感到自豪。就像你是一个新产品的自豪拥有者，你就是它的口碑营销。我为所有读过《创造》的人感到骄傲，他们去告诉朋友，送书作为礼物。现在这成了他们的事。他们就像“我有了一个使命”，不是我，而是买书的人把它送给别人，说“我发现这个，你一定要试试”。无论是小工具、实体书、食物、餐厅、俱乐部还是乐队，当你把它给别人，他们感受到并开始口碑传播时，你就知道有好事发生了。

I think the biggest one is a few things. One is, you know, there's not this intense hierarchy that you can only pass messages up the chain and down the chain, and you know, the silos on the side. Like, there's got to be this kind of really interesting mix of people and coming together in the culture of different ideas. That's one thing. The second thing is a leader who can see great ideas when people bring them up. And, you know, they may be—or they're just trying, they might be close to a great idea but they're trying, and you say, "Yes, more of that," and encouraging that, encouraging ideas to come forward, encouraging people. And if they—and if you have an idea, the leader goes, "I want to see you make my—you make this idea better for us," right? So if I have an idea, I have to give it up to them, and right? So you have to have this dialogue where people really feel like they're a part of it. One second thing is that the leader is in it, and they are not just delegating. They're in the details. They'll talk to different people at different levels. They can see that if they—the leader can see problems, and they'll go and address them right away, too, right, within reason. Because typically the teams know the issues before the leaders do, and they're just waiting for the leader to do something. And a lot too many times, the leaders are just like, "I'm not going to deal with it today, not going to deal with it today, next week. Oh, that's such a headache, I'll deal with it." And it lingers, and it eats on the team. So the more that the leader is involved, and those individuals see that you're involved, and that you're talking about ideas and not afraid to change directions without—within reason again, you know, that there is a relationship, not just the delegation. Those kind of things all inspire. Obviously, the mission has also got to be something that matters to the people inside. It's not just making money. It's never just about making money. It's about changing the world for the better, and that people can get around it. Because what they want to do is they want to go home, if they can, and talk to their family, talk to their friends about it, their extended family about it, and be proud, right? That's just like, you know, you're a proud owner of a new product. You're the word-of-mouth marketing of it, right? I'm so proud of all the people who've read Build, and then they go off and they tell their friends, and they give gift copies to them. And I'm like, it's kind of—it's now theirs. And they're like, "Now I'm on a mission." Not me, but the person who bought the book or whatever is giving to others, like, "I found this, you gotta try it," right? And it doesn't matter whether it's a gadget, it's a physical book, it could be a food or a restaurant or a club or whatever it is, a band. Like, when you give that to somebody and then they feel it and then they do the word of mouth, that's when you know there's something good going on.

说到真正感受并回归使命，我还得问一下。你知道，我请了红杉的 Doug Leone 上节目，他说：“当然，团队不是家庭。绩效是第一位的。”我听了之后想：“对，我的基金也是这样。”然后我对团队说了，他们回应：“是啊，是啊。”但后来团队里有几个人生活中遇到了问题，我说：“我在这里支持你。”然后我意识到：“等等，我不是团队，我是家庭。”但接着我又想：“不，不，不，有区别。这接近家庭，但不是家庭。”好吧，帮我理清一下。有家庭，还有大家庭，我们都在学习相处，还有核心家庭，有父母和孩子之类的。然后还有团队。中间有一种东西，领导者就像教练。他相信团队成员，就像你作为父母一样。你还没当父母，有一天你可能会感受到这些。我实际上有 12 个。

Speaking of kind of really feeling it and taking that back to the mission, I do have to ask also. You know, I had Doug Leone on the show from Sequoia, and he said, "Sure, a team is not a family. Performance is number one." And I listened to that and I was like, "Yeah, that's the same as my fund." Yeah. And I said this to the team and they were like, "Yeah, yeah." And then a couple of them had problems in life, and I was like, "I'm here for you, I support you." And I was like, "What the—I'm not a team, I'm a family." Like, and so I was—but then I'm like, "Well, no, no, no, there's a difference. Wait, that's different. It's close to family but it isn't family." Okay, help me. Okay, there's family, and then there is an extended family where we're all just learning to get along, and then there's the atomic family with parental units and kids and stuff like that. So and then there's a team. There's something in between, which is the leader is like a coach. Okay, and he believes in the team members, just like you as a parent. You're not a parent yet. One day you may feel these things. I've actually got 12.

这个相亲节目进行得非常顺利，我现在已经有 12 个孩子了。我不打算去那里。所以事情是这样的，当你为人父母时，你希望给孩子最好的，而且你永远不会停止爱他们。家人，他们是一家人，对吧？还有大家庭。家里有你爱的人，也有像害群之马那样的人，你只能说，好吧，他们是家庭的一部分，我们只能忍受他们。然后还有团队和教练。另一方面，领导者有时必须扮演父母的角色，有时必须扮演教练的角色，有时则必须扮演 CEO 的角色。CEO 会雇佣和解雇员工。教练会相信你、推动你，并说我们是为了团队，什么对团队最好。而父母则是推动个人变得更好。你必须考虑个人、团队以及雇佣和解雇的关系。换句话说，教练可能会移除某人，但这需要一段时间，因为他们真正考虑的是整个团队。父母永远不能移除任何人，对吧？你不能移除任何人，但你会推动人们让孩子变得更好，你会把风险抛给他们，让他们变得更好，就像我之前说的移动一样。CEO 可以非常不带感情地雇佣和解雇。我们从最不带感情到最有感情，对吧？CEO 是最不带感情的，父母是最有感情的，教练介于两者之间。你必须弄清楚在任何特定时间、对任何特定的人，你应该扮演这三个角色中的哪一个。你哪里最好？哪里最差？我哪里最好？我哪里最差？当你回想你当 CEO 的时候，对我来说，我可能是最好的教练。我是最差的 CEO。我站在教练这一边。我想站在教练这一边，然后当我意识到我们遇到了障碍，这个人虽然可能是个好人，但除非他们就是有问题，你必须摆脱他们，这时我会退回到 CEO 的角色。那很容易。难的是当这些人处于中间状态，他们是很好的人，非常友善，但他们真的不适合这种文化、这种工作风格等等。当你不得不说，听着，你很好，但我们必须让你走。

This dating show went really well and I've now got 12 kids. I'm not going there. So what happens is, when you're a parent, you want the best for your child and you're never going to stop loving them. Family, they're a family, right? And extended family. There are those people in your family you love, and there are those people in the family like the black sheep of the family, so to speak, that you just go, okay, they're part of the family, we just have to put up with them. And then there's the team and the coach. On the other side, a leader sometimes has to be a parent, sometimes they have to be a coach, and then they have to be a CEO. The CEO will hire and fire people. The coach will believe in and push you, and believe in you, and say we're here for the team and what's the best thing for the team. And then there's the parent, which is you're pushing that individual to be better. You have to look at individual versus team versus hiring and firing. In other words, the coach may remove somebody, but it's going to take a while because they really look at the whole team. The parent can never remove anyone, right? You can't remove anyone, but you're going to push people to get the kids to get better, and you're going to throw risks their way to make them better, just like I was saying about moving. The CEO can hire and fire like it's going to be very much unemotional. We're going from unemotional to the most emotional, right? The CEO is the least emotional, the parent is the most emotional, the coach is in between. You have to figure out which of the three you're going to be for any given time with any given person. Where are you best? Where are you worst? Where am I best? Where am I worst? When you think back to when you were CEO, for me, I'm probably the best coach. I'm the worst CEO. I'm on the coach side. I want to be on the coach side, and then I will fall back on the CEO side when I know that we're hitting a wall and that this person, while they might be a great person, unless they're just, you know, they have their issues and you got to get rid of them. That's an easy one. It's when these people are in the middle, where they're like, they're really good people, they're really nice people, but they're really not cut out for this culture, this work style, whatever. When you have to just say, look, you're good, but we're going to have to let you go.

如果他们只是某个阶段还行呢？

What if they're okay for a stage?

我以前遇到过这种情况，我说，不，如果他们不优秀，你就得摆脱他们。但有时候人们只是某个阶段还行，他们会来的。这没问题。但作为他们的经理，你必须告诉他们这一点。你必须说，听着，我们在成长。我认为下一个阶段对你来说会很好，但再下一个阶段，你需要去解决某些事情才能达到那个水平，否则我们就得在你上面安排一个经理来领导你。所以教练兼父母的职责就是：看，我看到了你没看到的东西。你需要解决这些问题，否则你作为教练不会和我们在一起太久。

I've had this before where I say people like, no, if they're not great, you've got to get rid of them. Well, sometimes people are okay for a stage, and they'll come. There's no problem with that. But what you have to do as their manager is you have to tell them that. You have to say, look, we're growing. I think this next stage is going to be good for you, but the stage afterwards, you need to go work on certain things to get you there, because otherwise we're going to have to get a manager on top of you to your right to lead. So that's the job of the coach parent: to go, look, I see things that you're not seeing. You're going to need to address those, or you're not going to be with us as a coach very long.

当你是一个独立创始人时，托尼，你感到孤独吗？

When you're a sole founder, Tony, were you lonely?

你在开玩笑吗？绝对是。你怎么... 好吧，我现在有这个。你知道，我以前有过联合创始人。托尼，点击声是怎么回事？哦，看这个。看这个。我把它举起来让摄像机... 看这个。哦哇。那是什么？一支笔。托尼要送出一支签名笔。这是我的 ASMR。如果你在 Twitter 上发一张你和《Build》这本书的合影，他会签一本给你。顺便说一句，我喜欢这支笔。是的，可能不是真的。但是不，好吧，帮我个忙。我以前有过联合创始人。我现在是独立创始人。我觉得很孤独。有些事情有时只有你知道并且需要处理。这就是为什么我说你需要一个联合创始人。你需要吗，还是你需要继续下去？

Are you kidding me? Absolutely. How do you... Okay, so I have this now. You know, I had a co-founder before. Tony, what is the clicking? Oh, look at this. Watch this. I'll put it up so the camera... Watch this. Oh wow. What's that? A pen. Tony's going to give a signed pen away. It's my ASMR. If you send a picture on Twitter with you and the Build book, he will sign a copy of that. I love this pen, by the way. Yes, maybe not actually. But no, like, okay, then help me out. I've had co-founders before. I'm now a sole founder. I find it lonely. There are things that sometimes only you can know and work on. That's why I say you need a co-founder. Do you, or do you need to get on with it?

你需要一个联合创始人。真的。你需要一个联合创始人。为什么？第一，他们应该与你的技能互补。第二，你需要一个伙伴，你可以分享所有你不能跟董事会或管理团队说的事情。你不能跟你的另一半说，因为他们没有足够的背景，对吧？而且他们不想你总是把工作带回家。所以你需要一个人，当你低落时能让你振作，反之亦然，或者能看到你看不到的东西。没有所谓 100% 或 360 度完美的人，什么都知道还能一直撑着。有时候你会经历一些事，或者你可能有家庭问题，这时你需要有人帮你扛着，这样你才能去处理家庭问题，然后再回来。这真的很难。作为独立创始人真的太难了，你知道，在任何成长中的公司都是如此。

You need a co-founder. Really. You need a co-founder. Why? Because one, they should be complementary with your skills. Two, you need a partner who you can share all the things you can't talk to the board about, or you can't talk to the management team about. You can't go talk to your significant other because they don't have enough context, right? And they don't want you bringing home work all the time. So you need somebody who, when you're down, can lift you up, or vice versa, or can see things that you don't see. There's no such thing as a 100% or 360-degree perfect person who knows everything and can just hang. There are times when you just go through, or maybe you have family issues, then you need someone to carry the load so you can go deal with your family and come back to this. It's just really hard. It's just so hard to be a single founder, you know, in any kind of growing company.

但当你看看最优秀的人时，这还成立吗？当你看看扎克伯格、埃隆、史蒂夫·乔布斯，他们可以说是孤身一人在顶峰。

Does that hold true though when you look at the best? When you look at Zuck, when you look at Elon, when you look at Steve Jobs, they were alone at the top, so to speak.

史蒂夫有史蒂夫。史蒂夫有史蒂夫·沃兹尼亚克。啊，是的，那是早期，是的。但即便如此，他在某个时候也需要一些帮助。在某个时候，你会在身边建立整个网络。也许你能做到这一点。史蒂夫有蒂姆，好吧。拉里有谢尔盖。埃隆不是 SpaceX 的 CEO。这是真的，对吧？有很多公司。你仔细看看，很多都有联合创始人。我不喜欢超过三个联合创始人的公司。我更喜欢两个。三个也可以，只要人们合得来，但四个以上，算了吧。我不想那样。如果是独立创始人，对我来说很难，除非我看到团队和周围人至少有一个可能没有创始人头衔但在公司有大量股份的人，这样他们也是使命的一部分。你知道权力，他们不会轻易离开。我一直觉得有效的搭配是一个强销售和一个强技术。当你有这两个人时，就像 99%。

Steve had Steve. Steve had Steve Wozniak. Ah, yeah, this was the early days, yeah. But still, he had to have some help at some point. At some point, then you create this whole network around you. Maybe you can get that right. Steve had Tim, okay. Larry had Sergey. Elon's not the CEO of SpaceX. This is true, right? There's a lot of companies out there. You go through them, a lot of them have co-founders. I don't like companies with more than three co-founders. I prefer it with two. Three can get as long as people, but four and above, forget it. I don't want to go there. If it's a single, it's hard for me unless I see that the team and the people around them have at least one person who maybe doesn't have the founder title but has significant holdings in the company, so that they're part of that mission too. You know that the power and they won't just leave. The pairing that I've always had work is one heavy sales person and one heavy technical person. When you have the two there, it's like 99%.

嗯，那是在 B2B 公司。你知道，如果你更偏向消费者，你会需要更多的市场营销或产品营销加上技术。因为你谈的是 SaaS，我想你指的是 SaaS 业务，你必须真正了解市场、渠道，你必须有人脉，然后把两者结合起来。当然，B2C 是不同的。但我同意所有这些。

Well, that's in a B2B company. You know, if you're in more consumer, you're going to have more marketing or product marketing plus technical. Because what you're talking about is SaaS, I think you're referring to SaaS business where you really have to know the market, the channel, you have to have the network, and then you put the two together. Sure, and B2C is different. But I agree with all that.

是的，不，我知道。这是一种孤独。我在读一本很棒的书，《Build》，显然是，但还有《Richard Happier Wiser》之类的，书中说最好的投资者愿意忍受孤独。坦率地说，我想到这一点，与你过去在 Future Shape 所做的有些关系。你知道，今天气候和气候变化显然是议程上最热门的话题。当你开始的时候，每个人都觉得你疯了。是的，没错。所以每个人都觉得，我当时...

Yeah, no, I know. It's being kind of loneliness. I was reading this great book, Build, obviously, but Richard Happier Wiser or whatever it's called, and it said the best investors have the willingness to be lonely. And bluntly, I thought about this with a little bit about what you've done in Future Shape in the past. You know, today climate and climate change obviously the hottest thing on the agenda. When you started it, everybody was like, you're nuts. Yeah, exactly. And so everyone's like, I was...

疯了。所以我的问题是，你怎么看待甘愿孤独这件事？你怎么能坦然接受被人说疯了呢？

Nuts. And so my question to you is, how do you think about the willingness to be lonely? How did you get comfortable with being called crazy?

我觉得恰恰相反。你看，你是在从负面角度看，而我从正面看。别人往东，我往西。我总是逆流而上，走向超越当下的未来，甚至走得更远。1994、1995 年，互联网在硅谷就是一切。别跟我提它。我说，算了吧，我要留在这里做我的设备，因为我相信这东西必须存在。我明白它为什么应该存在。我坚持做下去，后来就有了 iPod，再后来有了 iPhone。我没有偏离那条轨道。而所有人都说，“法德尔，你疯了。去做互联网吧，别搞这些原子层面的东西了。比特规模、在线用户才是关键。”我说，“不，未来需要这些东西。”然后叮叮叮，对吧？气候问题也一样。气候变化那事儿。比如 2014 年，我们是 Impossible Foods 最早的投资方之一。人们说，“Impossible Foods？植物肉？”我说，“你们等着瞧，这就是我们要走的方向。”然后突然之间，轰，现在人人都有植物肉替代品了。天知道有多少，大概有 700、800 家公司在追这个风口。但我们早在它火起来之前就在那里了。我一直学会在别人往东时往西。去追求更长期、更有益的东西。不要——如果所有人都在那里了，股票也是这样——如果所有人都在那里了，那还有什么意义？它已经定价过高了。通常已经到头了，太多人挤在上面。他们都在追，因为他们想要数据。他们没有足够好的直觉，没有足够好的对未来的看法来让自己投入。这就是我做的。别人都想要数据，而获得数据的唯一方式就是当所有人都在那里，拿到那些硬数字，然后说，“好了，现在我相信了，我要进去，因为别人都在那里。”但猜怎么着？别人已经在那里了。你必须相信自己的判断。这就是书里说的数据驱动 vs 观点驱动决策。无论是长期投资，还是新产品、新服务、新公司——你要在它还是观点的时候就去做，当你认为想法正确但还没有数据的时候。在没有真实数据的情况下，你应该用你的想法去尝试。

I think it's the other way around. See, I see you're looking at it from the negative point of view. I look at it from the positive point of view. I zig while others are zagging. I've always gone counter to where the future is beyond where it is today, and I go beyond that. So in 1994, 1995, the internet was everything in Silicon Valley. Don't talk to me about it. I'm like, forget it, I'm going to stay here doing my devices things because I believe this needs to exist. I see why it should exist. And I kept doing that, and then it became the iPod, and then became the iPhone. I didn't get off that track. Whereas everybody's like, "Fadell, you're crazy. Go to the internet. Stop dealing with these atoms things. It's just about bit scale, people online." I'm like, "No, the future's gonna need these things." And then bing, bing, bing, right? And the same thing comes with climate. The climate change stuff. Like in 2014, we were one of the first checks in Impossible Foods. People like, "Impossible Foods? Plant-based meat?" I'm like, "You'll see, this is where we need to go." And then all of a sudden, boom, now everybody's got a plant-based meat alternative. God knows what, there's probably 700, 800 companies out there all chasing it. But we were there at the beginning, before it was hot. I've always learned to zig while others are zagging. Go to the longer-term, more beneficial things. Don't just — if everybody's already there, and this is always the case with a stock — if everybody's already there, well, why the hell? It's already overpriced. Usually it's already over, like there's too many people on it. They're all just chasing because they want data. They don't have a good enough gut. They don't have a good enough opinion on what the future looks like to commit themselves to it. That's what I do. Everybody else wants data, and the only way to get data is when everybody's there, getting those hard numbers and saying, "Okay, now I'm convinced to go in there because everyone else is there." But guess what? Everyone else is there already. You've got to trust your opinion. That's the data versus opinion-driven decision in the book. Whether that's investing long-range, whether that's a new product, a new service, a new company — you do it while it's still opinion, and you think you have the right idea when there is no data. In the absence of the real data, you should go for it with the idea you have.

好，那我们深入聊聊。你提到 2014 年你说 Impossible Foods 很棒。所有人都说，“托尼，你疯了。”在那一刻和之前几个月，你会自我怀疑吗？还是你坚定不移地确信自己是对的？

Okay, so let's double down here. You mentioned in 2014 you say Impossible Foods is fantastic. Everyone goes, "Tony, you're out of your mind." Yeah, in that moment and in that preceding few months, do you have self-doubt, or are you unwaveringly sure that you are right in your position?

第一，没有。因为你看，我做的几乎每一件事——第一反应都是现有玩家嘲笑你。所以无论是 iPod，发生了什么？微软嘲笑。iPhone 出来了，诺基亚嘲笑。Nest，霍尼韦尔——然后他们起诉你，然后他们加入进来，对吧？如果他们还在的话。所以每次有人说，“托尼，你疯了，”我就想，“我可能是疯了，也可能是聪明得离谱。”我已经学会了相信自己。因为我保持——脚踏实地——我没有顾问告诉我该怎么做。我如饥似渴地阅读。我观察科技，观察颠覆发生在哪里，观察社会走向，我把这些联系起来，再看看现有玩家，然后想，“他们能走到那一步吗？”所以这不是你把问题交给团队，他们给你答案。你必须沉浸其中。你必须成为它的一部分。你必须真正感受它。就像我感受恒温器——对这款恒温器的需求，对吧？因为我直奔痛点。

One, no. Because look, every single — almost every single thing I've ever done — the first thing is the incumbents laugh at you. So whether it was at iPod, what happens? Microsoft laughs. iPhone comes out, Nokia laughs. Nest, Honeywell — then they sue you, then they join in, right? If they're still around. So every time somebody's like, "Tony, you're crazy," I'm like, "I might be crazy, or it might be crazy smart." And I've learned to trust myself. And because I stay — feet on the ground — I don't have advisors telling me. I read voraciously. I watch tech, I watch where the disruptions are happening, I watch where society is going, and I link these things up and where the incumbents are, and go, "Are they going to get there?" So this is not like you give it to a team and they come back with answers. You've got to sink yourself in it. You've got to be part of it. You've got to really feel it. Just like I felt the thermostat — the need for this thermostat, right? Because I go to where the pain is.

我的问题是，我完全理解你聪明得离谱的时候。但肯定也有你只是疯的时候。是的，我确信。绝对有。你怎么知道什么时候该放弃，什么时候该坚持？当人们说，“你知道吗，我错了。我错过了这个。”

My question is, I totally get you when you're crazy smart. There has to be times when you are just crazy. Yeah, I'm sure. Absolutely. How do you know when to pull the plug versus when to persist? When they go, "You know what, I was wrong. I missed this one."

嗯，你看，有时候不是方向问题。有时候方向是对的，但团队不对。好吗？所以我们押注的事情通常方向是对的。很少有方向错误的时候。往往是这个团队无法胜任挑战。他们有使命，他们去执行了，使命是对的，但团队的能力不够，他们不够成熟，或者不够专业化，无法真正抓住那个机会并将其转化为成果。或者可能是技术太早了，对吧？时机问题。就像 General Magic 太早了一样。你知道，我们经常看到这种情况。我见过创始人，第一次创业或第二次创业，技术不对。但后来我们吸取了所有教训，重新投资他们，说，“哦，现在这才是正确的方法。”对吧？这是另一回事。仅仅因为你可能疯了，或者疯得太早，然后失败了，并不意味着你应该停止。只有当你停止时，你才算失败。你可能走在正确的轨道上，只是时机不对，团队不对，你还没准备好，无论是什么。然后你继续努力，它就会变成一些东西。就像我从 General Magic 到飞利浦，再到苹果，再到其他公司一样。我只是坚持做下去，因为我知道方向是对的，即使我合作的团队，甚至我自己（因为我在自我提升）当时是错的。只是时机未到。

Well, look, sometimes it's not a directional issue. Sometimes it is the right direction, it's the wrong team. Okay? So the things that we're betting on are typically the right direction. There's very few times when the direction was wrong. It was that this team wasn't up to the challenge. They had the mission, they went on the mission, the mission was right, but the team was not up to the talents, and they could not be mature enough or become professionalized enough to actually take that opportunity and turn it into something. Or maybe the technology was just too early, right? Timing. Just like General Magic was too early. You know, we see that all the time. I've seen founders, first-time founders or second-time founders, come out and the technology wasn't right. But then we reinvested in them after we took all those learnings and said, "Oh, now here's the real way to do it." Right? That's the other thing. Just because you might be crazy or crazy early and you failed doesn't mean you should stop. You fail only if you stop. You might be on the right track, it was just the wrong timing, the wrong team, you didn't have it, whatever it was. Then you keep at it, and then it turns into something. Just like it was for me from General Magic to Philips, then to Apple, to whatever. I just kept at it because I knew the direction was right, even though the teams I was working with, or even myself because I was working on myself, was wrong. It just wasn't the right thing yet.

我能问一下——嗯，其实首先我想问你提到如饥似渴地阅读。你怎么决定读什么？我的筛选过程很有问题，最后读的东西不怎么样，然后我就放弃了，我不该浪费时间。你怎么确定读什么？

Can I ask a bit of a — well, I mean first actually I want to ask you mention reading voraciously. How do you decide what to read? The selection process for me is like highly flawed and I end up reading stuff that's not great and then I churn and I shouldn't waste time. How do you determine what to read?

通过大量阅读，你开始捕捉趋势。太多人只读一点点东西，然后说，“我从那里面就能得到答案。”不。我想要信噪比。所以我会有很多——也许很多噪音——但有时那些信号开始汇聚，它们告诉我，“哦，这个我已经读过大概四次了。现在我必须开始关注了。”所以第一步是，有噪音，然后你开始得到下一个东西的信号。然后你想，“好，你把它放进脑子里。”如果我再读到五篇关于这个的文章，也许我应该开始关注了。我——你明白我的意思吗？然后在那之后，我就想，“哦，我现在应该开始了。”我开始学习，想，“他们到底在说什么？”然后我想，“也许我应该在这个领域找一些创业者，开始向他们学习，因为他们花了很多时间在上面。”所以一切首先从哪些领域对我最重要开始。那就是健康、社会和地球。然后我阅读不同的问题，也许是一些技术解决方案，因为我读的是科技。我在读——

By reading so much that you start to pick up on trends. So too many people read like just a few things and they go, "I'll get it from that." No. I want signal to noise. So I'm gonna have lots of — maybe a lot of noise — but sometimes those signals start to come together and they show me, "Oh, I've read about this like four times now. Now I gotta start paying attention." So there's one, which is there's noise, then there's you're getting signals for the next thing. And then you go, "Okay, you put that in your brain." If I read another five articles about this, maybe I should start paying attention. I go — do you see what I mean? Then after that, I'm like, then I go, "Oh, I should start now." I start learning and go, "What are they really saying?" Then and then I go, "Maybe I'm gonna find some entrepreneurs in this section and start learning from them because they've been spending more time up right." So it all first starts with what are the areas that are most important to me. That's health, society, and the planet. And then I'm reading about the different problems, maybe some technological solutions, because I'm reading about technology. I'm reading about —

我在读关于政治、政府以及该领域最新动态的内容。你会收到大量噪音，但有时信号会出现，因为你已经见过足够多的案例。然后我进入下一阶段：与内部人士交谈，获取他们的想法，开始形成自己的观点。我在塑料问题上已经研究了六年，现在真的开始深入了解如何提供帮助。但这需要时间。大多数人不想投入时间，他们只想要答案。对我来说，好奇心就是我喂养大脑的方式，是我的氧气——从基层学习所有这些东西，倾听和阅读大量噪音，直到找到信号。然后我锁定它，并把它带到逻辑上的下一步，看看是否真有价值。

I'm reading about politics, governments, and the latest in that area. You get a lot of noise, but sometimes the signal shows up because you've seen enough hits. Then I go to the next level: talking to people inside, getting their ideas, starting to form my own opinions. I've been doing this on plastics for the last six years. Now I'm really getting down to know how to help. But it takes time. Most people don't want to invest the time; they just want the answers. To me, curiosity is how I feed my brain, it's my oxygen — learning all these things at the ground level, listening and reading lots of noise until I find signal. Then I lock on and take it to the logical next steps to see if there's a there there.

我能问个奇怪的问题吗？我们在节目前聊过。你说，“哦，你得照顾好自己，哈里。”我说，“啊，只有十年，有趣的生命周期。”我把幸福与里程碑挂钩，我知道这不对，但这是人性。你怎么看待以那种方式抽离自己，不把自己与下一轮融资、下一次 IPO 或任何其他东西挂钩？你有什么建议给我？

Can I ask a weird one? We chatted about it before the show. You said, 'Oh, you gotta look after yourself, Harry.' And I said, 'Ah, only for ten years, fun life cycle.' I align happiness to milestones, which I know is wrong, but it's human nature. How do you think about detaching yourself in that way and not aligning yourself to the next fund, the next IPO, the next whatever? How do you advise me?

我不跟数字打交道；我跟想法和使命打交道。数字是第三位的。我关心重要的事情和要解决的问题，钱是第二或第三位的。通常金钱世界里的其他人，他们只在乎钱。“我必须做这个，因为我得搞定 LP。”我从来没有……当我和 VC 圈外的大多数投资人士交谈时，甚至很多时候在 VC 圈内，他们都像华尔街一样：“数字呢？给我看看。我需要营收吗？”我说，“我在谈想法，那时还没有接近营收，可能只有三个人。”我看的是问题。

I don't deal with numbers; I deal with ideas and missions. The numbers are tertiary. I worry about the things that matter and the problems to be solved, and then the money is second or third order. Usually everybody else in the money world, that's all they care about — the money. 'I got to go with this because I got to get LPs.' I've never... When I talk to most people in investment outside of the VC world, even a lot of times in the VC world, they're all like Wall Street: 'Where's the numbers? Show me. Do I need the revenue?' I'm like, 'I'm talking about ideas before there's near revenue, there might be three people.' I look at the problem.

恕我直言，这是不是一种奢侈，因为你不是 VC？你必须考虑投资组合构建。

Is that a luxury, respectfully, because you're not a VC? You have to think about portfolio construction.

但我在想我在 90 年代和 2000 年代的想法：“接下来是什么？”我在赚大钱之前就在做事。我阅读、综合各种信息，看到事物在我脑海中汇聚。所以这就是我要走的路。

But I'm thinking about what I was thinking in the 90s and 2000s: 'What's next?' I was doing things before I had made tons of money. I was reading, synthesizing things, seeing things come together in my brain. So this is the way I'm gonna go.

钱改变你了吗？一点点？

Did money change you? Tiny?

它改变我了吗？嗯，它让你有缓冲，可以承担更大的风险。但我一直承担风险。没有钱你不会承担哪些更大的风险？我认为最大的一次就是收拾行囊离开我所有朋友和整个社区的地方——在硅谷投资了 24 年后离开。另一次是在苹果之后退休，不知道接下来做什么。或者离开飞利浦，说我要创办一家初创公司。它一直是风险调整后的。随着你脚下根基更稳，风险也变得更大。

Did it change me? Well, it allows you to have a cushion so you can take bigger risks. But I've always taken risks. What bigger risks have you taken that you wouldn't have taken without money? I think the biggest one was just picking up and moving outside of where I had all my friends and my whole community — leaving Silicon Valley after investing 24 years there. The other one would be retiring and not knowing what I'm doing next, after Apple. Or leaving Philips and saying I'm going to do a startup. It's always been risk-adjusted. The risks get bigger as you have more footing underneath you.

我们之前提到了小家庭和婚姻，还有辉煌的事业。你怎么做到在业绩上不损失一丝一毫，同时又与妻子和孩子保持良好关系？我现在很害怕；我有女朋友了，老兄。这确实会削弱你 24 小时全力以赴的能力。

We mentioned unit family and marriage earlier, and then the stellar career. How do you not lose an inch on performance but also have these great relationships with wife and kids? I'm terrified now; I've got a girlfriend, man. It does detract from your ability to crush it 24 hours.

你必须记住，你不能每天 24 小时全力以赴，否则你会压垮自己。你会变得社交不健康、心理不健康，而且对外部世界毫无视角。你需要走出去——不要只躲在博客和 RSS 订阅的滤镜后面。通过走出去，你看到其他问题。通过环游世界，你看到其他问题。这就是书中关于按摩的那一整章，对吧？公司让你如此娇惯，以至于你从不想离开；他们只想让你一直工作。你在那里得到所有食物，有人帮你洗衣服。但结果呢？公司内部变得陈腐，因为这些人从不走出去。他们只和公司里的人社交，只做公司里的一切。他们变得无趣。你想和时尚界、政界和媒体界的人共进晚餐，了解世界各地的其他玩法，这样你就可以把那些带回来。做到这一点的唯一方法是把它安排进日程，并记住你可以委派某些事情。如果你什么都做，而且总是在团队里，这对团队也不健康。他们没有喘息的空间，一切变得如此自私自利，以至于变得陈腐。

You have to remember that you can't crush it 24 hours a day, or you're going to crush yourself. You're going to become socially unhealthy, mentally unhealthy, and you're going to have no perspective on the outside world. You need to get out — not just behind the filter of blogs and RSS feeds. By getting out, you see other problems. By traveling the world, you see other problems. That's the whole chapter in the book about massages, right? Companies make it so coddled that you never want to leave; they just want you to work all the time. You get all your food there, your laundry done. But what happens? It gets stale inside the company because these people never get outside. They only socialize with people at the company, they only do everything at the company. They get uninteresting. You want to go have dinners with people in fashion, politics, and media, and learn about all these other plays in different parts of the world so you can bring that back. The only way you do that is by scheduling it in and remembering you can delegate certain things. If you do everything and you're always on the team, that's not healthy for the team either. They have no room to breathe, and everything becomes so self-serving that it becomes stale.

我觉得我们有点软弱了，托尼。我就直说了：这种四天工作周，整个反奋斗文化。最优秀的人在职业生涯的某些阶段都很努力。我在推特上被抨击，比如“哦，你不懂”。真的，如果你想成为最优秀的，那就努力。如果你不想，那也行，很酷。你选择了。也许你能成为最优秀的？我很想看到。我从未见过有人以这种“无论发生什么，我都会这样”的态度取得成功。世界不是这样运转的，因为每个人都在竞争。随着全球化，团队更多了，技术和待解决问题的全球化。现在全世界都在围绕同样的问题竞争。如果你认为他们实行三天工作周，他们就会从你身边超过。你必须明白，你会在正确的事情上高强度工作——每周 60、70，甚至 80 小时。但不是每天 24/7。你必须拿出最好的状态，因为如果你不这样，团队其他人也不会。还有这种混合工作周的事情，每个人都觉得“我不需要去办公室”。

I think we've got a little bit soft, Tony. I'm just gonna put it out there: this four-day work week, this whole anti-hustle culture. The best people work hard at points in their career. I get slammed on Twitter like, 'Oh, you don't understand.' Really, if you want to be the best, fine, work hard. If you don't, fine, that's cool. You've chosen. Maybe you can be the best? I'd love to see that. I've never seen anyone be successful with this 'whatever happens, I'm gonna be' attitude. That's not how the world works because everybody's competing. Even more with globalization, there are more teams, the globalization of technology, of problems to be solved. Now you have the world competing around the same kinds of problems. If you think they're taking three-day work weeks, they're going to pass right by you. You have to understand you're going to work intensely on the right things — 60, 70, maybe 80 hours a week. But not 24/7 every day. You have to bring your best because if you don't, the rest of the team doesn't. And this whole hybrid work week thing, everyone's like 'I don't need to be in.'

我觉得现在办公室的问题，只是对领导者试图让员工重返办公室的一种反弹。这完全是错误的方式，他们甚至没有考虑人性。有更好的方法让人们回到工作岗位，但他们没有沟通，只是说“你必须回来”，这是个错误的信息。那么正确的信息是什么？

The office anymore I think it's just a backlash to how leaders are trying to bring workers back into the office it's exactly the wrong way they're not even thinking about the human nature of it there are better ways of bringing people back to work but they're not communicating it's just like you got to come back that is the wrong message what is the right message

正确的信息是：第一，从人性出发。人性是，人们被困在仓鼠轮子、笼子和迷宫里，日复一日，年复一年。他们习惯了，然后疫情来了，砰的一声，是时候重置了。他们想：“哦，我出笼子了，我离开了这个无尽的迷宫。哦，自由，我可以呼吸了。”因为那个迷宫或仓鼠轮子太糟糕了，他们不喜欢。然后有些人说：“哦，我想回到工作中，和人们在一起，因为我热爱我所做的事情，这是一个使命，我们试图完成一些事情。”最好的团队是有使命的团队。混合或远程工作环境出现后，他们继续前进，没有错过任何节拍。而其他人则想：“终于可以离开那里了。”然后那些公司就跌倒了。我们要记住的是，我们正试图让人们回到笼子里。你不能只是说“回到你的笼子里，否则你会被解雇”，这差不多就是你在外面听到的。你要记住的是，确保你的文化是否有问题，修复你的文化。如果你的文化是正确的，提醒他们这一点，让他们产生错过办公室的恐惧感，重新向他们推销为什么这很重要。第一，为了他们的个人发展，因为你知道，如果你没有在 Zoom 会议之外与合适的人有足够的面对面时间，你很可能不会得到晋升或奖金。第二，尤其是在我们现在面临的财务危机中，谁会是第一个被解雇的？是不来上班的人，还是来上班、有面对面时间、并展示出超越会议价值的人？

The right message is number one let's take from human nature let's start from human nature the human nature is people were trapped in their hamster routines on their wheels in their cages in their mazes for months and years on end okay they got used to it cove it happened and boom it was time to press reset and they were like oh i'm out of my cage i'm out of this endless maze okay oh freedom i can breathe again i have i have this because the maze or the hamster wheel was so shitty that they didn't like it all right and then they have this some other people are like oh i want to be back at work with people because that's i love doing what i love doing because it's a mission we're trying to get something done and the best teams were the ones who had a mission and the hybrid or virtual work environment came up and they kept moving right they didn't miss a beat whereas everyone else was like finally and get out of there and then those companies stumbled what we have to remember is we're trying to get people to go back into the cages and you just don't go go back in your cage because or you're going to be fired that's what you're hearing more or less what you're hearing out there what you have to remember is making sure was your culture wrong fix your culture if your culture was right remind them of that give them fomo about not being in the office resell them why it's important one for their personal advancement because we know and you know that if you don't have enough face time with the right people outside of zoom meetings you're most likely not going to be the person who gets the promotion or that bonus or whatever two in especially now in a financial disaster that we have on our hands who's going to be the first one to get fired the ones who don't come into work or the ones who do come into work and have some facetime and show value beyond just coming to a meeting

这难道不是散布恐惧吗？我同意你的观点，但这不是在说“你不能不来”吗？不。

Is that not fear-mongering I'm with you but is that not hey you cannot come in but no

我不是说他们会那样说。我说的是，作为员工，你应该明白这是现实世界。我不相信每周五天都在办公室，我认为应该是混合模式。但认为完全远程是正确的，那就错了。这对公司不利，对个人也不利，如果他们从自己的角度出发，真正理解组织是如何运作的。所以，作为领导者或 CEO，你有责任提醒人们，或者解决工作中的问题，这样工作就不会感觉像仓鼠笼子和迷宫。然后看看所有这些酷的事情，你会说：“我今天真的想去上班，我想亲自去工作。”

I'm not saying that they're going to say that what i'm saying is is that you as the employee should understand this is the real world and i don't believe in five day a week in the office all the time i don't think that's i think there's hybrid but to think it's all virtual wrong it's wrong for the company but it's also wrong for the individual if they look from their shoes their standpoint if they really understand how organizations work okay so so it's as it's incumbent as a leader as a ceo to remind people or fix the problems that were at work so it didn't feel like a hamster cage and a maze and go look at all these cool things and you're like i really want to be to work today i want to be physically into work

五年后，我们是回到办公室，还是混合模式？我们会是混合模式，混合模式，混合模式。除了某些行业，比如服务业，必须现场办公。

Five years time are we back in the office or are we hybrid we're going to be hybrid we're going to be hybrid we're going to be hybrid okay we're going to be hyper we're going to be hybrid except for certain industry certain service industries or something where it can't be you have to be on site

你提到了经济衰退。有很多投资者和创始人从未经历过衰退，突然变得非常非常不安。你会如何建议他们？你见过多次，我经历过三次：一次是我大学毕业后，一次是 2000 年，还有一次是 2008 年。

You mentioned the financial downturn there's a ton of investors and founders who've never experienced a downturn who is suddenly very very insecure yeah um but uh question how would you advise them you've seen multiple first i've been i've seen three i've seen i've been through three downturns one when i got out of college one in 2000 another one in 2008.

现在我要讲第四点。是的，这就是一个钟摆。各位，钟摆从好时光摆到坏时光，再摆回好时光，然后更好。你要记住，这是一波浪潮，不是生死攸关的事。就像你作为一个人，我出生的时候，甚至你作为一个人，你都有起起落落。你的职业生涯也有生物节律，钟摆一直在摆动。宏观环境、行业内的微观环境，都一样。钟摆总是在摆动。所以，现在确实很糟糕。但猜怎么着？过去 14 年你赶上了上升期，算你幸运。可猜怎么着？你得再等 14 年才能等到下一个上升期。世界就是这样运转的。欢迎来到地球。好吧，习惯它，并且开始明白，它不会像以前那样了。等到它开始变得像以前那样时，你会忘记它曾经是什么样子，或者你会像我一样看待它。我会想，哦，这我见过太多次了。别人贪婪时我恐惧，现在别人恐惧时我贪婪。

And now I'm going to go through my fourth. Yeah, it's a pendulum. Everyone out there, the pendulum swings from good times to bad times to good times to better. You have to remember this is a wave. This is not like life or death. Like with you as a human, when I was born, even as you as a human, you have ups and downs. You have the pendulum swinging. What decade are you up and which decade are you down? The biorhythms of your career. The same thing goes with the macro environments, the micro environments inside of industry. The pendulums are always swinging. So yeah, it sucks now. Guess what? You got in the upward swing for the last 14 years or whatever. Lucky you. Well, guess what? You're going to have to wait for the next 14 years to get out, to wait for the next one. That's how it works. Welcome to the planet. All right, get used to it and start understanding it ain't going to be like it was. And by the time it starts to become like it was, you're going to forget what it was like, or you're gonna see it like me. I was like, oh, I've seen this way too many times. I'm gonna be scared while others are greedy, and now I'm greedy while others are scared.

托尼，你真是太有同情心了。谢谢。

That's so sympathetic of you, Tony. Thank you.

我只是想说，各位，世界就是这样运转的。现在就习惯它吧，因为这不是你当什么类型的家长的问题。你是那种同情的家长吗？那太软弱了。这叫现实。你想要什么？溺爱？哦，你真可怜。哦，市场跌了。我能为你做什么？成熟点，醒醒吧。拜托，各位。世界就是这样运转的。好吗？

I just, guess what, people, that's how it works. Get used to it now, because it's not the type of parent you are. Like, are you the sympathetic? Yeah, that's weak. It's called reality. What do you want, coddling? Oh, woe is you. Oh, the market's down. What am I gonna do for you? Grow up. Wake up. Come on, people. That's how it works. Okay?

你是否担心在经济低迷时期，气候以及对气候的承诺会变得不那么重要？

Are you worried that in a downturn, climate and a commitment to climate becomes less of a priority?

非常非常非常担心。这就是为什么我一直在抨击元宇宙。我希望那些聪明的大脑、稀缺的聪明才智和精力，以及我们之前谈到的领导者们，我关心所有这些人和他们把时间和精力投入到哪里，因为我们最多只有 20 年、30 年的时间来解决问题并修复它。我们现在必须做点什么，不能等到最后。现在不是拖延的时候，我们已经拖延够了。所以我担心的是 2008 年的情况。2008 年发生了什么？当时我们有了绿色科技 1.0，绿色科技 1.0 刚刚起步。大家都说，好吧，我们要解决这个问题了。然后 2008 年来了，资金枯竭了。每个人都觉得，哦天哪，这些气候变化业务太难了，需要太多钱。现在是经济低迷，我们不能投资。然后他们做了什么？他们去追逐社交移动业务，优步之类的。我不是说那些没有价值，但热钱都追着那些跑，没有追气候。是的，那时候我看上去像个疯子。我在做所有这些事情，而你们在做什么？你们为什么要在那些事情上浪费时间？等等等等。现在突然之间他们又回来了。我不想这么说。我讨厌战争，我讨厌乌克兰战争，这是一场悲剧。但乌云背后的一线希望是，它暴露了那些暴君，他们用我们消费的石油和天然气像牵线木偶一样控制着我们，对吧？他们哈哈笑着说，我们就是玩弄他们。这更向我们表明，我们需要有意志。我们有技术，我们需要有意志来实现这些改变。所以我不希望发生的事情是，幸运的是我们现在有了一个共同的敌人，所以即使是在金融低迷时期，我们也必须投资未来。这就是未来。实际上，绿色产业可以赚更多的钱，因为做绿色材料之类的事情更容易、更具成本效益。实际上对商业更有利。想想高盛、富达、摩根大通，他们怎么样？我们的数字在增长，实际上短期内我们必须向股东公布漂亮的数字，而在低迷的宏观微观环境下，长期投资更具挑战性，除非他们的客户说，我需要 ESG 相关的投资。我需要，我希望我的钱流向那些东西。越来越多的人正在这样投票，对吧？所以当然会有银行家之类的人只看数字和增长点。但政府，尤其是欧盟的政府，正如你所知，现在正在大力推行 ESG。他们正在补贴某些东西。大型产业正在建设，比如电池制造、电池回收，这些都是大生意。你知道更好的是什么吗？一旦你建成了它们，它们将在 20 年、30 年后成为蓝筹股，因为它们将成为新的标准石油之类的东西，对吧？摩根大通，他们不是银行。他们一开始不是银行，对吧？他们是从石油起家的。所以你看，我不会只是回顾过去。并不是我对社会、金融问题中的情况没有同理心。我只是不想让每个人都担心得不得了，哦天哪，我真可怜，一切都不会再一样了。但事实并非如此。让我们明确一点：钟摆会摆动。不要以为这就是终点。当然很糟糕，没人想要这样。但世界就是这样运转的。所以你必须拥抱它，并找到面对它的不同韧性策略。有韧性策略，可以解决。是的，很糟糕，但不再像以前那样容易赚钱了。所以不要总是以为它会回到以前的样子，或者它会消失然后回到以前的样子。世界不是这样运转的。下一次摆动会不同，好吗？如果你一直在学习并保持领先，你的工作就是去找到下一个重要的事情，并乘势而上。这不仅仅是看数字、追逐数字。太多日内交易者和其他人这么想了。那不是真正的价值所在。因为当一切上涨时，一切都好。但正如我们所知，潮水退去时，我们才能看到谁在裸泳。有太多人暴露了，因为他们相信了“哦，我当然可以坐在沙滩上交易”。那不是这样运作的。如果你想赚真正的长期钱并守住它，就不是这样。

Very, very, very much so. And that's why I'm railing against the metaverse. I want these brilliant brains, these scarce brilliant brains and energy, and the leaders like we were talking about earlier. I care about all those people and where they're putting their time and energy, because we only have 20 years, 30 years tops to get out and make this thing and fix it. We have to do something now. We can't just wait till the end. This is not the time to procrastinate. We've already done that. So my worry is like in 2008. Here's what happened in 2008. When we had Green Tech 1.0, Green Tech 1.0 was we were starting. Everyone's like, okay, we're gonna address this. Then 2008 happened and the money dried up. And everyone's like, oh my god, these climate change businesses are so hard, they take so much money. This is a downturn, we can't invest in it. And what did they do? They went after the social mobile thing, Ubers, all that stuff. And I'm not saying those aren't valuable, but the hot money chased all that and they didn't chase climate. Yeah, and that's when I look crazy. I'm like, I'm doing all these things. Like, what are you doing? Why are you bothering with this? Blah blah blah. And now all of a sudden they're back. I hate to say it. I hate the war. I hate the Ukrainian war. It's a tragedy. But the dark gray clouds, the silver lining there is that it has exposed these tyrants who hold us, you know, hold us like puppets on a string with the oil and gas that we consume, right? And they're like, hahaha, we'll just play with them, right? This shows us even more so that we need to have the will. We have the technology. We need to have the will to make these changes happen. So what I don't want to have happen, even you know, and luckily we have a common enemy now, so even in a financial downturn, we all have to go and invest in the future. This is the future. There's actually more money to be made with green industries because it's easier and more cost effective to actually do green materials and things of that nature. It's actually better for business. Thinking of Goldman, I'm thinking of Fidelity, I'm thinking of JP, who are going, what about them? Our numbers are getting, and actually in the short term we have to publish great numbers to shareholders, and an investment in the long term is more challenging in a depressed micro macro environment, except when their customers are going to say, I need to have ESG related investments. I need, I want my money to go to those things. And more and more people are now voting that way, right? So of course they're going to be bankers, what have you, who are just looking for numbers and where's the growth and everything else. But the governments, especially in the EU as you know, are now going really hard after ESG. They're now subsidizing certain things. There's big industries being built, like the battery manufacturing, battery cycling, these kinds of things are big money. And you know what's even better? Once you build them, they will be a blue chip in 20 years, in 30 years, because they're going to be the new standard oils and what have you, right? JP Morgan, they were not a bank. They didn't start as a bank, did they? They started as an oil. So look, I wouldn't just go back on the list. It's not that I'm not empathetic to the situation that's going on in the social, in the financial issues. Look, I just don't want everyone to get all worried like, oh my god, you know, woe is me and it's never going to be the same. Well, that's just not how it is. Let's just be clear. The pendulum swings. Don't think it's the end. Of course it sucks. Nobody wants this. But that's how the world works. So you have to embrace it and find different ways of being resilient in the face of this. There are resiliency strategies. It can be worked out. Yeah, it sucks, but it's just not easy money like it used to be. So don't always understand that it's going to look like it used to be or it's going to go away and go back to the way it used to be. That's not how the world works. It's going to be different. The next swing, okay? And it's your job, if you're always learning and staying on top of it, is to then go and find the next thing that matters and ride that up. It's not going to be just seeing the numbers and chasing numbers. That's what too many of these day traders and other people think. That's not where the real value is. Because when everything's up, it's great. But as we know, when the tide goes out, we see who's exposed. And there's so many people exposed because they bought into this, oh, of course I could just sit on the beach and trade. That's not how it works. Not if you're going to make real long-term money and hold on to it.

托尼，我想进入快问快答环节。我说一个简短的陈述，你给我你的即时想法。我知道我们时间有限。听起来不错？

Tony, I want to move into a quick fire round. I say a short statement, you give me your immediate thoughts. I know we've got time constraints. Sound good?

嗯，是的，因为我很快就要走了。好的，明白。

Well, yes, yeah, because I have to go very soon. Okay, got you.

梦想的晚餐客人。你会请谁？

Dream dinner guest. Who would you have?

梦想的晚餐客人。嗯，我在想某个诺贝尔奖得主。我不能告诉你是哪一个，但我想会是一个或多个我能从他们身上学习的诺贝尔奖得主。

Dream dinner guest. Yeah, I'm thinking some Nobel Prize winner. I can't tell you which one, but I'm thinking it would be one or multiple Nobel Prize winners who I can learn from.

你的房子着火了。除了人，你首先说什么？

Your house is on fire. Other than people, what do you say first?

我首先说什么？我救出我保存的所有长期纪念品。

What do I say first? I save all of my long-term memorabilia that I've kept.

为什么不喝咖啡因，托尼？

Why no caffeine, Tony?

呃，因为你会不喜欢我。

Uh, because you wouldn't like me.

对于未来五年，以及人们如何看待《Build》这本书，你理想的结果是什么？

What would be the ideal outcome for you in terms of the next five years and how people view the book Build?

我在意的是，人们要么受到启发去动手建造，要么这本书帮助了他们正在建造的东西，让他们建得更快、更好、更强。或者这本书帮助人们找到了他们正在做的事情、他们的使命，并帮助他们在个人层面取得成功，比如开启职业生涯，与团队一起做重要的事情。所以我只关心它能否深入人心、提供帮助，并成为一位规模化的导师。因为世界上有太多噪音，这本书有助于找到信号和真正重要的东西。因为建造东西非常困难，无论是建造自己还是建造企业，都是如此。它试图削减所有噪音，告诉你：事情通常是这样运作的，这些是你可以遵循的通用经验法则，这样你就能专注于差异化和手头的任务，而不是那些确实重要但充满噪音的事情，以及那些试图说服你尝试新事物的人。但归根结底，这一切都关乎人性。新事物和人性通常不会，你知道，它们通常会冲突，因为人类在很多方面都是以相同的方式被编程的。

I care that people were either inspired to go build, or it helped them and the things they are building to build them quicker, faster, better, stronger. Or it's helped the book has helped people to find what they're doing, their mission, and help them to succeed personally, in terms of getting their career off the ground and doing something important with a team. So I just care about that it gets in there and it helps and becomes that mentor at a scale. So that you know, there's so much noise in the world that this helps to kind of find the signal and what really matters. Because building things is very hard, whether it's building yourself or a business, what have you. Trying to cut down all the noise and go, here's generally how it works, these are good general rules of thumb that you should follow to help you, so you can focus on the differentiation, the task at hand, as opposed to all these things that do matter but there's so much noise and so many people trying to get out there and convince you do this new thing. But it's all about human nature at the end of the day. New things and human nature don't usually, you know, they usually butt heads because humans are we're all programmed the same way in many instances.

你是个英雄。我太喜欢我们的聊天了，非常感谢你，Harry。

You are a hero. I so love our chats and thank you so much, Harry.

嘿，谢谢你。再次感谢你的所有支持。也感谢你所有的听众等等。你知道，《Build》现在是《纽约时报》畅销书了，我能开始感受到销量，这将有助于建立气候基金，以应对，你知道，帮助这些企业应对气候危机。所以所有这些事情都在汇聚。这才过了一个月，我期待看到未来五年会是什么样子。谁知道呢？

Hey, thank you. Thanks, thanks again for all your support. Thanks to all your listeners and everything. You know, Build is now a New York Times bestseller, and I can start to feel the sales so that it's going to help build the climate fund to address, you know, help these businesses addressing the climate crisis. So all these things are coming together. It's only been a month, and I'm looking forward to seeing what the next five years looks like. Who knows?