Evan Spiegel 谈 Z 世代、Snapchat 愿景与科技未来

内容本身就是社交性的，它是一个连接点。有趣的是，我想起 Snapchat 的早期。没人觉得 Snapchat 能成功。我们去找的早期投资者都说：“嗯，祝你好运。试试跟 Facebook 竞争吧，他们已经锁死了市场。”

Content in and of itself is social. It is a point of connection. It's funny, I think back to the early days of Snapchat. Nobody thought Snapchat could work. I mean, our early investors we went to talk to were like, "Yeah, good luck. Try competing with Facebook. They've got it locked down."

你的妻子 Miranda 非常投入时尚行业。你是不是通过她学到了这个新视角？

Your wife, Miranda, is so involved in fashion. Did you kind of like learn this new vantage point through her?

你知道，我每天都穿同样的衣服，所以我呃……

You know, I wear the same thing every day, so I um

她应该给你改造一下。

She should give you a makeover.

我还没注意到。

I hadn't I hadn't noticed.

我们的第一次约会，是去上瑜伽课。现在我们真的在回忆往事了。总之，

Our first date, which was to a yoga class. Now we're really going down memory lane here. Anyways,

等等，那也太勇敢了。你当时柔韧性好吗？

Wait, that's so brave. Were you even flexible?

我打电话给我姐，说：“我该怎么办？”

I called my sister and I was like, "What do I do?"

这不仅是性教育谈话，也是科技谈话。

It's like not just like the sex talk, it's like the tech talk, too.

哦，天哪。说得好。

Oh, shoot. That was good.

是吗？

Was it?

我吃了吗？

Did I eat?

嗯，你吃过了。你吃过了。

Yeah, you ate with that. You ate with that.

我是 Sherie。

I'm Sherie.

我是 Jean。

I'm Jean.

我是 Evan。

I'm Evan.

我们是 Tiger Sisters。

And we're the Tiger Sisters.

我们是你们的华尔街和硅谷大姐姐。

We are your Wall Street and Silicon Valley big sisters.

我们是排名前十的商业播客，将深夜姐妹聊天与董事会策略相结合。

And we're a top 10 business podcast bringing late-night sister talk meets boardroom strategy.

所以，今天我们请到了 Snapchat 的 CEO 兼联合创始人 Evan Spiegel。Snap 塑造了全球人们的沟通方式。

So, we are here today with Evan Spiegel, the CEO and co-founder of Snapchat. Snap has shaped how people communicate around the world.

Snap 拥有 10 亿月活跃用户。

Snap has 1 billion monthly active users.

而 Snapchat 相机中的 AR 镜头（也就是滤镜），我在 Snap 时和 Evan 一起参与开发，每天被使用超过 90 亿次。

And AR lenses in the Snapchat camera, which I helped develop with Evan, aka filters, while I was at Snap, is used more than 9 billion times a day.

Evan 在 23 岁时拒绝了马克·扎克伯格 30 亿美元的收购要约，因为他深信 Snapchat 的愿景和未来。

Evan famously turned down a $3 billion offer from Mark Zuckerberg when Evan was just 23 years old because he believed so deeply in the vision and future of Snapchat.

有很多播客中 Evan 分享了 Snap 的起源故事以及他将公司扩展为数十亿美元企业的理念。

There are many podcasts out there of Evan sharing Snap's origin story and his philosophy for scaling to a multi-billion dollar business.

那些话题深入探讨过去。我们今天在这里讨论未来。

Those topics dive into the past. We are here today to discuss the future.

Z 世代完蛋了吗？

Is Gen Z cooked?

Evan Spiegel，欢迎来到 Tiger Sisters 播客。

Evan Spiegel, welcome to the Tiger Sisters podcast.

非常感谢邀请我。我真的很期待这次访谈，有很多话题要聊。

Thanks so much for having me. I'm really I've really been looking forward to this, so lots to cover.

我太兴奋了。

I'm so excited.

好的，我们真正想谈的第一个话题是 Z 世代，因为我觉得当我在 Snap 和你一起工作时，我们非常关注 Z 世代，对吧？我们痴迷于理解他们、共情他们，并为他们打造最好的产品。所以，我想先从一个非常开放的问题开始。你怎么看待 Z 世代？

Okay, so the first topic that we really want to talk about is Gen Z because I feel like when I was working here at Snap with you, we were obsessed with Gen Z, right? Like we were obsessed with understanding them, empathizing with them, and building the best possible product for them. So, I think let's start with just a really open-ended question. What do you think about Gen Z?

嗯，首先，我认为年轻人总体上一直对 Snapchat 这样的新技术接受度最高。年轻人乐于学习新事物，天生好奇，所以 Snapchat 从学校起步，当然，我们通过朋友推动了 Snapchat 的增长，他们开始用它来交流，我们所有人都用它互相沟通。随着时间的推移，它显然发展到了全球、全国，正如你所说，现在月活跃用户接近 10 亿。所以，我认为我们在 Snap 所做的很多事情实际上并不针对特定世代或人群。更多的是发明根本性的新技术，让人们能够表达自己、活在当下，或使用新的增强现实工具或镜头，但我们发现新技术通常最容易被年轻人接受。具体到 Z 世代，我们家就有一个 Z 世代的孩子，Flynn 15 岁，我认为这是一个现实主义者的一代。

Well, I think first of all, you know, young people in general have always been most receptive to Snapchat as a new technology. Young people are open to learning about new things, they're naturally curious, and so starting Snapchat out of school, of course, you know, we kicked off the growth of Snapchat with our friends who just, you know, started using it to communicate with, you know, we all were using it to communicate with one another. And then over time, obviously, it grew across the the world, across the the nation as, you know, now reaches nearly a billion monthly active users as you mentioned. So, I think for us so much of what we do here at Snap is is actually not oriented around a specific generation or a demographic. It's more about inventing fundamentally new technology that, you know, empowers people to express themselves or live in the moment or use a new augmented reality tool or or lens, but we find that new technology is just most readily adopted by young people in general. I think as I look at Gen Z specifically, and we've got a Gen Z'er at home, Flynn is 15, you know, I I I think it's it's a generation of realists.

嗯。

Mhm.

他们在非常具有挑战性的环境中长大。你对比一下千禧一代或我这一代，在 90 年代长大，那是一个非常乐观、和平的时期。有大量的经济增长和机会。然后显然，千禧一代在成长过程中遇到了 9/11、金融危机、疫情等很多坎坷。但这意味着千禧一代从乐观和平的框架出发，然后遇到了这些坎坷，对吧？我认为千禧一代仍然保留着那种乐观，但被现实塑造了。而 Z 世代是在那种现实中长大的。这是一个非常不同的框架，尤其是当你看到 Z 世代相对于婴儿潮一代的处境，以及他们成长的环境——教育实际上负担得起，买得起房，工作前景不像今天这样受 AI 影响。所以，当我与 Z 世代或 Flynn 的朋友们交谈时，我看到的就是一种现实主义的视角：他们必须在今天这个复杂的世界里尽力而为。

They've grown up in a really challenging environment. You know, and you contrast that with millennials or my my generation where growing up in the '90s, I think there was a very it was a very optimistic, peaceful period of time. There was a huge amount of economic growth and opportunity. And then obviously, millennials, you know, hit a bunch of speed bumps along the way with 9/11 or the financial crisis, the pandemic. But, you know, that that means that millennials went from sort of this optimistic and peaceful frame to hitting these speed bumps, right? And I think millennials still retain that optimism, but it's been shaped by reality. I think Gen Z grew up in that reality. And that's a very different frame, especially when you look at how Gen Z is positioned relative to boomers and the you know, the environment that they grew up in where education was actually affordable, where you could afford to buy a home, where you know, job prospects weren't necessarily shaped by AI as they are today. And so what I see when I talk to Gen Z or you know, Flynn's friends for example, is just a realistic perspective that they've got to do the best they can with a really complicated world today.

嗯。你认同吗？她处于 Z 世代光谱的另一端。

Yeah. Does that resonate with you? She She's on the opposite end of the spectrum of Gen Z.

嗯。现在我想了想，因为 Flynn 15 岁，我 30 岁，我在想我现在还能自称 Z 世代吗？

Yeah. Well, now that I'm kind of thinking about it because Flynn is 15 and I'm 30, I'm like can I even claim Gen Z at this point?

千禧一代。

Millennial.

嗯，她处在交界处。

Yeah, she's cusp.

嗯，我想我试图自称 Z 世代，因为我处在交界处。我是 Zillennial。确切地说是 1995 年出生，所以我拥有两代人的优点。我完全理解你的意思。从千禧一代的角度，我经历过 MySpace 盛行的时代；从 Z 世代的角度，我完全理解互联网的新采用方式以及社交媒体运作的流动性。

Yeah, I think I'm trying to claim Gen Z because I am on the cusp. I'm Zillennial. So squarely like 1995 baby and so I'm like I get the best of both worlds. So I totally hear you. I think from the millennial side, I was just like yeah, I was there when MySpace was a huge thing and here on the Gen Z side, I totally understand the new ways of internet adoption and being more fluid in how social media works.

我让她有点尴尬。我一般不问她问题。

I put her on the spot. I don't usually ask her questions.

我想问你 Evan，Z 世代对技术有什么需求，而你觉得千禧一代不想要或没有的？

I want to ask you Evan, what does Gen Z want from technology that you feel that millennials don't want or didn't have?

我不确定有重大的世代差异。我认为归根结底，很多这些东西都归结为我们作为人类真正想要的东西，对吧？那就是与他人的连接。从根本上说，使我们成为人类的是我们对关系的渴望。我认为人们想通过技术来表达这一点，因为我们不能总是和朋友待在同一个房间里。有时我们在世界的另一端，或者我们在家而朋友在运动等等。技术帮助我们与最重要的人保持联系。所以，我不认为那里有世代差异。而且，我们有大量的千禧一代、Z 世代、婴儿潮一代，甚至 X 世代在使用 Snapchat。所以，我看到跨越每一代人的是那种对人际连接、人际关系的真正渴望。

I'm not sure there are major generational differences. Like I think at the end, you know, a lot of this stuff comes down to what we really want as humans, right? And that is connection with other people. Fundamentally what makes us human is our desire for relationships. And I think people want to express that through technology because we can't always be in the same room together with our friends. Sometimes we're halfway around the world or we're at home when our friends, you know, you know, playing sports or something like that. And technology helps us stay in touch with the people that matter most to us. So, I don't necessarily think there's a generational difference there. And I think, you know, we have have a a huge number of millennials who use our service and Gen Z or boomers, you know, even Gen Xers on on Snapchat. So, I think what I see cut across every generation is that real desire for for human connection, human relationships.

嗯。

Yeah.

我完全有同感，但同样地，当我偶然接触到 Alpha 世代或看到他们创作的内容时，感觉就像完全不同的语言。你也有这种感觉吗？我们该如何突破，要么与最年轻的 Alpha 世代对话，要么为他们创造产品，还是说这和为千禧一代创造产品非常相似？

I totally feel that, but also in the same vein, when I'm somehow put into contact with Gen Alpha or I come across content that Gen Alpha's making, it feels like a completely different language. Does it feel that way to you or how do we break through and either speak to the youngest generation, Gen Alpha, and or create products for them, or is it very similar to creating products for millennials?

Alpha 世代已经大到能创作内容了吗？什么是 Alpha 世代？

Is Gen Alpha old enough to make content? What's Gen Alpha?

是的，他们现在 13 岁了。比如 Skibidi Toilet Rizz。你肯定听过这个。我就想，那是什么？我需要有人给我解释一下，还要翻译。

Yeah, they're 13 now. Like Skibidi Toilet Rizz. Like you've heard that. I'm like, what is that? You know, I need someone to define that for me and also translate.

我肯定听过。

I've definitely heard that.

我需要有人给我解释一下，还要翻译。

I need someone to define that for me and also translate.

你提到这一点很有意思，因为我确实认为，内容本质上就是社交性的。无论是伴随电视节目长大的老一辈，一起讨论那些节目，还是现在在互联网上，不同世代或朋友群体会发现不同的内容并分享，这些内容会以不同的方式在社交上走红。但我认为你真正指出的是，内容本身就是社交的，它是一个连接点。所以，我确实认为这会在某种程度上因朋友群体或世代而异，因为当你长大后，你的很多朋友也来自学校，年龄相仿。因此，我认为我们在世代上最终会被不同类型的内容或不同的迷因所吸引。但同样，我认为贯穿所有这些世代的共同暗流是对人际连接的渴望，而内容是我们彼此联系的一部分。

Well, it's interesting you mention that, because I do think that at its heart, content is social in nature. Whether it's older generations who grew up with television shows and talking about those shows together or now on the internet, different generations or friend groups are finding different pieces of content and sharing that content, and it can go viral socially in different ways. But I think what you're really pointing out is that content in and of itself is social. It is a point of connection. And so, I do think that's going to differ based on friend group or based on generation in some ways, because when you grow up, a lot of your friends are also from school and they're similar ages to you. And so, I do think we end up, generationally, being attracted to different types of content or different sorts of memes. But again, I think the cross-cutting undercurrent through all these generations is that desire for human connection, and content is part of how we relate to one another.

当我想到 Alpha 世代时，有一点不同：就像我们是第一代伴随互联网长大的人一样，他们是第一代在 AI 原生世界中长大的人。那么，你认为这对 Alpha 世代有什么影响或改变？

One thing when I think about Gen Alpha that's different is that similar to the way that we were the first generation to grow up with the internet, they're the first generation to grow up in an AI native world. So, how do you think that affects or changes Gen Alpha?

我一直在思考这个问题。这真的很有趣，因为正如你提到的，对千禧一代来说最大的变革之一就是互联网。它实际上让千禧一代在很多方面超越了 X 世代。事实上，我和很多人聊过，他们说，这太疯狂了。我去学校学摄影，当我在学校学习胶片摄影时，一切都变成了数码。我觉得自己带着一套不再相关的技能离开了学校，这让我非常沮丧，不得不学习新东西。我认为千禧一代在职场中，甚至在家庭动态中，年轻人成了知道如何连接 Wi-Fi 路由器、能帮父母登录学校邮箱了解情况的人。所以，我认为千禧一代通过使用互联网，真正加速了他们作为一代人的成长和发展。我认为这强化了千禧一代仍然持有的乐观态度，即他们真正相信这些技术工具的力量。而且我认为千禧一代通常是 Alpha 世代的父母。所以，我实际上认为千禧一代的父母，当然也包括我聊过的父母，希望年轻人采用 AI 工具。希望看到他们能轻松地构建东西、表达自己和创造。这让我对 Alpha 世代非常乐观，因为我认为如果他们能在成长过程中采用这些工具，用它们来构建东西、创业、尝试新事物、以个性化方式更快地学习，那将会非常有意义且影响深远。我的意思是，可能没有比 AI 更好的技术来加速学习了。而且我认为它正出现在 Alpha 世代处于非凡学习和成长阶段的关键时刻。

I've been thinking so much about this. So, it's really interesting because one of the biggest game changers, as you mentioned for millennials, was the internet. It actually allowed millennials to in many ways leapfrog Gen X. And in fact, I've talked to a lot of people who said, it's so crazy. I went to school to learn photography, and while I was in school studying film photography, everything changed to digital. And I felt like I was leaving school with a skillset that wasn't relevant anymore. And that was really frustrating for me, and I had to learn something new. And I think millennials in the workplace, and certainly even in the home dynamic, young people became the folks who knew how to hook up the Wi-Fi router and could figure out how to help their parents log into the school email, to know what was going on. And so, I think millennials through their use of the internet were really able to just accelerate their growth and development as a generation. And I think it reinforces the optimism that millennials still have, which is that they really believe in the power of these technological tools. And I think millennials are generally the parents of Gen Alpha. And so, I actually think millennial parents, and certainly the parents I talked to, want young people to adopt AI tools. Want to see how easy it is for them to build things and express themselves and create. And that to me makes me so optimistic about Gen Alpha because I think if they can grow up adopting these tools, use them to build things, to create businesses, to try new things, to learn way faster and in a personalized way, I think it'll be really, really meaningful and impactful. And I mean, there's probably no better technology to accelerate learning than AI. And I think it's arriving at such an interesting and critical time for Gen Alpha when they're in that phase of just extraordinary learning and growth.

是的，当我回想自己的童年，比如在互联网上长大，我会想起自己做过的事情。我记得三年级时那些 AOL 聊天室？

Yeah, I feel like when I reflect upon my own childhood, like growing up on the internet, I just think back on things that I was doing. I remember in the third grade I remember those AOL chat rooms?

我远离那些。

I stayed away from those.

好吧，我记得有一些留言板。有时候我会想，这难道是发烧梦吗？但有一个留言板全是关于马的，我超爱马。基本上每个人都有自己的马，你可以养马、互相买卖。还有……让它们互相繁殖，然后让它们比赛。现在回想起来，我在这些留言板里到底在干什么？

Okay, there were these message boards that I remember. Sometimes I'm like, was this a fever dream? But they had this message board that was all about horses, and I love horses. And it was basically this everyone just owned horses, and you would raise horses and sell them to each other. And there was no... breed them with each other, and then you would race them against each other. And now I think back on it I was like, what was I doing in these message rooms?

学习通货膨胀。

Learning about inflation.

是啊，我简直是在做最复杂的事。所以我想问，你小时候在互联网上做什么？你有没有类似的记忆，比如你会想，等等，那是真的吗，真的发生过吗？

Yeah. Yeah, I was like I was doing the most. So I'm just like what were you doing on the internet when you were young? Like do you have a memory that's similar to that where you were like, wait, was that real did that happen to me?

对我来说，与其说是互联网，不如说是所有的图形设计工具。我从中学开始就痴迷于图形设计。我参与学校年鉴和校报的排版工作，还有用 Adobe Flash 制作自己的小动画和小游戏之类的。所以对我来说，那个时期的电脑代表了不可思议的创造力工具。那是我成长过程中最喜欢的东西。

For me it was less about the internet and more about all the graphic design tools. So I was obsessed with graphic design really starting around middle school. I worked on my school yearbook and my school newspaper doing the layout and all that kind of thing. And Adobe Flash making my own little animations and the little games and things like that. So for me computers in that period of time just represented incredible tools for creativity. And that's what I loved the most growing up.

这让我想起了你。

That reminds me of you.

是的。我当时在用……我不知道，我的意思是不是互联网，但我在三四年级时用了很多创意工具，比如混音自己的歌曲，设计 GarageBand 片段之类的东西，然后和 Jean 分享，我会说，“等等，”

Yeah. I was on... I don't know, I mean it wasn't the internet, but I used a lot of creative tools as like a third or fourth grader, like remixing my own songs and designing like GarageBand clips and stuff that I'd share with Jean and I'd be like, "Wait,"

所以你就像给我刻录了 30 分钟长的歌曲 CD，我会听完整个。

So you like burn these CDs for me of like 30-minute long songs and I would like listen to the whole thing.

那……好吧，现在回想起来，听起来很糟糕，但那对我来说是一种创意宣泄。

It was... Well, looking back on it now, it sounds horrible, but it was like a creative outlet for me.

是啊，这就像你今天所做一切创作的先驱。

Yeah, and it was like a precursor to all the creation that you do today.

哦，是的。我能剪辑，嗯，我认为我能剪辑我们的播客、制作音频、混音等等的原因之一，就是我从三四年级就开始用那些工具了。谢谢苹果。

Oh, yeah. The reason why I'm like I can edit, well, I think one of the reasons why I can edit our podcast and create the audio for it and audio mixing and all that stuff is because I've been doing it since like the third or fourth grade through those tools. Thank you, Apple.

太棒了。

That's awesome.

是的。

Yeah.

嗯，有意思的是我们正在谈论我们早期的科技经历，因为大约三周前我们请到了 Rahm Emanuel 上播客，和他聊了科技，社交媒体自然被提到了。有很多像 Rahm 这样的人说我们应该禁止年轻人——16 岁以下的人——使用社交媒体。新西兰也有一篇相关的文章。你怎么看？我觉得现在有一波新的、也许是越来越强的呼声在这么说。

Well, it's interesting that we're talking about our early days with technology because we had Rahm Emanuel on our podcast maybe around 3 weeks ago and we were talking to him about technology and obviously social media came up. There are a ton of people like Rahm saying that we should ban social media for young people, people under 16 years old. There was also a New Zealand article about this. What are your thoughts on that? I think there's a huge new wave and maybe new drumbeat of people saying this.

是的。嗯，首先，年轻人在线上服务中的安全和保障是最重要的，我认为人们对此感到担忧并优先考虑这一点是对的。所以我认为这很关键。同时，作为家长，我自己也深有体会：我认为年轻人的成熟度更多取决于他们作为个体的特质，而不是年龄。确实有些青少年可能已经准备好用 Snapchat 与朋友和家人交流，而另一些人可能还没准备好承担这个责任。在我们家，我们觉得 15 岁的 Flynn 使用 Snapchat 没问题。我们知道他用它来与朋友和家人保持联系，我们认为这对他真的很重要。我们知道人际关系对心理健康和幸福感至关重要，这一点已经被研究证实了。所以对我们家来说，禁止 16 岁以下使用没有意义，因为我们看到 Flynn 从与朋友和家人的交流中获得了多少价值。与其武断地禁止，我认为更周到的做法是制定明确的规则和法规来规范社交媒体的提供方式，尤其是针对年轻人，但总体上更广泛地适用。我真的很主张政府去做制定这些规则的工作。例如，Snapchat 上有一个独特之处，与短信相比，两个人必须先互相添加才能交流，这增加了一层安全性。你必须双重确认才能开始对话，而如果有人有我的手机号码，他们可以直接发短信给我，即使我不想收到那条消息，也能开始骚扰我。这些预防措施，比如 Snapchat 上没有公开的好友列表，让人们更难知道某人的朋友是谁，或者因此欺负他们。所以，隐私保护和人们双重确认对话的保护措施，都是我们帮助保护年轻人的重要方式，此外我们还要努力发现不良行为者并将其从我们的服务中移除。总的来说，我认为一个真正周到的、确保有规则和法规到位的方法，会让每个人都更放心地为年轻人提供这些对他们的幸福感至关重要的通信服务。正如我提到的，这一点已经被针对 Snapchat 的独立研究以及更广泛的研究所证实。当社交媒体被适度使用时，研究实际上显示它与整体幸福感相关。

Yeah. Well, I think first and foremost, the safety and security of young people on online services is paramount, and I think folks are right to be concerned about that and right to prioritize that. So I think that's critical. At the same time, I've certainly experienced this myself as a parent: I think young people's maturity depends less on their age than on who they are as an individual. There are certainly some teenagers who might be ready to use Snapchat to communicate with their friends and family, and others who may not be ready for that responsibility yet. For us in our home, we feel comfortable with Flynn, who is 15, using Snapchat. We know he's using it to stay in touch with his friends and family, and we think that's actually really important for him. We know that relationships are key to mental health and well-being; that's certainly been reinforced by the research. So for us in our family, an under-16 ban doesn't make sense because we see how much value Flynn gets from communicating with his friends and family. Rather than arbitrary bans, I think the more thoughtful approach is to actually develop clear rules and regulations for how social media is provided, especially to young people, but in general more broadly. I would really advocate that the government does the work to develop those rules. One of the things on Snapchat that's unique relative to text messaging, for example, is that two people have to add each other before they communicate, which adds a layer of safety. You have to double opt-in to a conversation, whereas if someone has my phone number, they can just shoot me a text and start bothering me even if I don't want to get that message. Those sorts of precautions, like not having a public friends list on Snapchat, make it much harder for people to figure out who someone's friends with or otherwise bully them because of that. So things like privacy and the protections of people double opting in to conversations are really important ways we can help protect young people, in addition to all the work we do to find bad actors and remove them from our service. Overall, I think a really thoughtful approach to making sure there are rules and regulations in place will help everyone feel more comfortable with providing these communication services to young people, which are so important to their well-being. As I mentioned, that's certainly been proven out by independent research on Snapchat specifically, but also more broadly. When social media is used in moderation, the research actually shows it's correlated with overall well-being.

我们喜欢引用 Tiger Sisters 的研究，所以很高兴你提到这个。我们总是在谈论案例研究和研究。所以你很符合我们的风格。

We love citing research on Tiger Sisters, so I'm glad you brought that up. We're always talking about case studies and research. So you're on brand.

那就来吧。

Let's do it.

我喜欢你谈论对 Flynn 的方式，它更偏个人层面。就像单独评估：我觉得我的孩子准备好使用社交媒体、这些消息应用、Snapchat 了吗？所以我觉得很多正在观看的家长会对你的细致方法感兴趣。比如，你考虑自己孩子的哪些因素和特点来判断‘好了，他们准备好了还是需要更多时间？’一个清单？对，你是怎么想的？

I love how you were talking about your approach for Flynn; it was more on a personal level. It's like assessing individually: do I think my child is ready for social media, for these messaging apps, for Snapchat? So I think a lot of parents watching would be interested in your discreet approach to that. Like, what are the factors and features you're thinking through of your individual child to be like, 'Okay, are they ready or do they need a little bit more time?' A checklist? Yeah, like how do you think about it?

嗯，这很有意思，因为尤其是青少年——我们前几天刚和 Flynn 还有他妈妈聊过——青少年在他们的人生阶段渴望更多的自由。和青少年对话的一部分就是说：‘自由伴随着巨大的责任。’所以我们要谈：‘好吧，你想在外面多待一会儿，那你需要和妈妈保持联系，告诉她你去哪里、在哪个朋友家、那里家长的电话号码是多少，这样我们才能联系到他们。而且你要说到做到，按时回家。这有助于我们建立信任。’当你展现出这种责任感时，我们就更放心给你更多自由。这不仅适用于社交媒体，也适用于青少年生活的方方面面。我们希望 Flynn 能够出去和朋友玩，开始独立的旅程。他 15 岁，离成年还有 3 年，然后就会完全离开家。这不会在他 18 岁生日那天突然发生；这是一个逐渐成长和发展的过程。所以对我们来说，根据他想做什么或如何度过时间，这总是一场关于平衡自由和成长中真正责任的对话。

Well, it's so interesting, because teens in particular—and we were just having this conversation with Flynn and his mom the other day—teenagers are at a point in their lives where they want a lot more freedom. And part of the conversation with teens is saying, 'With that freedom comes great responsibility.' So let's talk about, 'Okay, you want to stay out a little bit later, then you need to really stay in touch with your mom and let her know where you're going, whose friend's house you're at, and what is the phone number of the parent who's there so we can get in touch with them. And you need to come back home when you say you're going to come back home. That helps us build trust.' When you demonstrate that responsibility, then we feel more comfortable giving you more freedom. That doesn't just pertain to social media; it pertains to all aspects of a teenager's life. We want Flynn to be able to go out and have fun with his friends and begin that journey of independence. At 15, he's 3 years away from being an adult and leaving our home entirely. That doesn't just happen when he turns 18; that's a gradual process of growth and development. So for us, depending on what he wants to do or how he wants to spend his time, it's always a conversation of balancing that freedom with the real responsibilities of growing up.

对，所以这是一场持续的对话。

Yeah, so it's like an ongoing conversation.

我认为必须如此。

I think it has to be.

是的。嗯，我喜欢这个，因为我正在意识到，我从来没有和父母谈过科技，就像父母坐下来和你谈事情那样。我从来没有谈过科技以及如何安全、周到地使用它。

Yeah. Well, I love that because I am now realizing in real time, I've never had a conversation about technology with my parents, like when your parents sit you down and have a conversation with you about things. I never had one about technology and how to use it in a safe and thoughtful way.

这就像是现在要有的新对话。不只是性教育谈话，还有科技谈话。

It's like the new conversation to have now. It's not just the sex talk; it's the tech talk too.

哦，天哪。说得真好。是吗？我是不是说得很棒？

Oh, shoot. That was good. Was it? Did I eat?

是的，你说得很棒。

Yeah, you ate with that.

你说得很棒。

You ate with that.

这其实是一个很好的机会让我分享 The Keys，如果你上网，这是我们整理的一个关于在线安全的项目，青少年可以和父母一起完成。

And this is actually a great opportunity for me to share the Keys, which if you go online, it's a program that we put together that's all about online safety that teens can do together with their parents.

所以，我觉得有时候父母甚至不知道从哪里开始这场对话。而且，你知道，有时候对话并没有足够聚焦于真正的风险，比如网络性勒索或毒品。这些事可能对人们的生活产生非常严重的负面影响，但通常人们不谈论它们，或者了解不够，学校也没有花时间教育年轻人这些风险。所以我们开发了自己的项目，叫做“钥匙”，父母可以和青少年一起做。里面甚至还有一个小测验，你可以跟着做。但我认为这是一个很好的方式来锚定对话，确保它触及最重要的网络安全话题。

And so, I think sometimes parents don't even know where to start that conversation. And also, you know, sometimes the conversation isn't focused enough on the real risks, serious risks online, like sextortion or drugs. These are things that can have a really serious impact and negative impact on people's lives, but oftentimes they're not talked about or people don't know enough about them and schools aren't, you know, spending time educating young people about these risks. So, we built out our own program called the keys that that parents can do together with their teens. It even has like a little pop quiz in there, too, as you can follow along. But, I think that's a really good way to anchor the conversation and make sure it's hitting, you know, the most important the most important online safety topics.

是的，我觉得这应该在健康课上涵盖。

Yeah, I feel like it should be covered in health class.

可能应该。这应该成为课程的一部分。

It probably should. This should be like curriculum.

应该包含在健康课里。

be included in health class.

我的意思是，这完全是另一个关于学校整体以及我们应该教年轻人什么的话题，但当然，我认为网络安全是其中很重要的一部分。

I mean, this is a whole other conversation about about it school in general and what we should be teaching young people, but certainly I think online safety is is a is a big part of that.

嗯，我要坦白一件事，也像是解锁了一段记忆。是的，现在我想起来，我当时大概 11 或 12 岁，在一个儿童聊天室里。那里有规定，你不能透露个人信息。但有人问：“你们从哪里来？”然后我说了我来自哪里，接着就被那个聊天室封了。然后我的 AOL 账户也被停用了，我不得不找回来。那是我青春期前的时候。所以我觉得，在那种对话里，应该讨论什么该说、什么不该说，什么能发、什么不能发，出于安全考虑。

Well, I have a confession and also like like a memory kind of unlocked. Yeah, right now, where I think I was like maybe like 11 or 12 and I was in like a kids chat room. And you're not supposed There's like rules around this chat room. You're not allowed to like reveal like personal information about yourself, but someone's like, "Where are you Where's everyone from?" And then I said where I was from and then I was banned from that chat room. And then my like AOL account was taken down and I had to like get it back. This was, you know, when I was a preteen. So, like I feel like there should be I mean, with that conversation, like what should you and should you not say online? What can you and can you not post online for safety reasons?

那么在 Snapchat 上有什么快速简单的方法获得帮助呢？如果你被欺负了，你可以长按消息立即举报，我们的信任与安全团队会在几秒或几分钟内提供帮助。我认为这对网络安全来说非常重要。我确实认为技术及其进步非常深刻，这意味着像 Snapchat 这样的在线服务会变得越来越安全。

And what are some really quick and easy ways to get help on Snapchat? If you're being bullied, you can, you know, press and hold, report the message right away, get help from our trust and safety team, you know, in seconds or minutes. And I think that's a really big deal when it comes to online safety. I do think that technology and the advancements here, you know, are are so profound. And and I think it's, you know, going to mean that online services like Snapchat continue to get safer and safer.

所以，正如你们所知，我们为 Tiger Sisters 做了大量研究，投入了很多工作来确定最佳话题和最佳嘉宾。我们对护肤也有同样的感受。这就是为什么我们非常兴奋能与 OneSkin 合作，因为它不仅仅是漂亮的包装。它由女性创立，由博士科学家打造，根植于长寿研究。

So, as you guys know, we do so much research for Tiger Sisters, and so much work goes into figuring out what are the best topics, what are the best guests. And we feel similarly about our skin care. And that's why we are so excited to partner with OneSkin because it's not just pretty packaging. It's female-founded, built by PhD scientists, and rooted in longevity research.

是的，我喜欢它的一点是它完全简化了我的护肤流程。我是皮肤非常敏感的人，所以对涂在脸上的东西格外挑剔。当你找到真正有效的东西时，你就只想谈论它。

Yeah, and what I love about it is that it's totally simplified my routine. I'm someone with very sensitive skin, so I'm extra picky about what I put on my face. And when you find something that actually works, all you want to do is talk about it.

让我印象深刻的是他们的 OS-1 肽，这是他们所有护肤品的基础，也是他们所有研究的成果，从源头针对衰老。

And what I'm really impressed by is their OS-1 peptide, which is the basis of all of their skin care and is the result of all of their research, which targets aging at the source.

是的，没错。OneSkin 的 OS-1 肽诞生于十多年的长寿研究，被证明能针对可见的衰老迹象，帮助你从现在到随着年龄增长都拥有最健康的皮肤。

Yes, exactly. Born from over a decade of longevity research, OneSkin's OS-1 peptide is proven to target the visible signs of aging, helping you unlock your healthiest skin now and as you age.

限时优惠，使用优惠码 Tiger Sisters 在 oneskin.co 可享受 15% 折扣。

For a limited time, try OneSkin with 15% off using code Tiger Sisters at 15% off at oneskin.co with code Tiger Sisters.

购买后，OneSkin 会询问您如何得知他们。请告诉他们 Tiger Sisters 推荐了您，并请支持我们的节目。

And after you purchase, OneSkin will ask you how you heard about them. Please tell them that the Tiger Sisters sent you, and please support our show.

我觉得我们都是未来主义者。我对未来非常乐观，我真心认为科技在塑造未来和社会向更好的方向发展方面扮演着角色。我想你也是，我很确定。我个人感兴趣的一个话题，我想你也感兴趣，就是人机交互。你正在积极思考这个吗？你认为这是我们未来的一部分吗？你正在朝这个方向努力吗？跟我们聊聊这个吧。

I think we're both futurists. Like I am just so optimistic about the future and I genuinely think that tech has a role in shaping the future and society for the better. I think you're the same, I'm pretty sure. And I guess like one of the topics that I'm personally interested in, I think you're also interested in, is HCI, so human-computer interaction. Is that something that you are actively thinking about? Is that something that you think is like part of our future? Is that something you're building towards? Like tell us a little bit about that.

我们 Specs 的使命是让计算更人性化。如果你回顾计算界面的历史，最基本的方式是将其分解为输入和输出。第一次大变革是键盘和鼠标。我跳过了一些革命，但就个人计算而言，键盘和鼠标作为输入非常重要。然后图形用户界面作为输出。接着 iPhone 带来了另一次巨大飞跃。尽管它在很多方面类似于个人电脑，但它将输入和输出结合到一个触摸屏中，我认为这是计算使用方式的又一次重大进步。我认为它让计算更自然了。即使是一个小孩，拿起 iPhone 也能立即知道如何滑动和操作，而他们可能需要花点时间学习使用键盘。所以这些界面正变得越来越自然。对我们来说，下一步是 Specs，这是一种智能眼镜，将计算叠加在你周围的世界中。不再有屏幕作为界面，计算实际上嵌入到你周围的世界，你只需用手和语音与计算交互，就像与朋友或周围世界互动一样。我认为这是减少计算摩擦的下一个进化。用我的输入输出框架来说，巨大的变化在于计算输出通过眼镜的透明镜片实现，而输入就是你的自然手和语音。这让我们非常兴奋。我们还可以谈论未来的传感器等等，但我认为这是计算和界面的下一个重大步骤。

Our mission with Specs is to make computing more human. I think if you look at the history of computing interfaces, right? The most fundamental way to break them down is basically in into an input and an output, right? And there was this first big sort of revolution was the keyboard and the mouse, right? I'm skipping a few revolutions, but I think in terms of personal computing, the keyboard and the mouse as inputs were a really, really uh big deal. And then obviously the graphical user interface as as an output. I think then you sort of had another big leap around the iPhone. Although it many in many ways resembled um resembled the the personal computer, it combined the input and the output into one touchscreen, which I think was another really big leap forward in terms of the way that we use computing. But I think, you know, as I look and and I think it certainly made computing more natural, right? I mean, you know, even if you look at a a young child, they can pick up an iPhone and immediately figure out how to swipe around and move around because, you know, I think uh where whereas it might have taken them a little while to learn how to use a keyboard, right? So I think uh we're certainly uh you know, these interfaces are are becoming more natural. The next big step uh for us with Specs, which is our intelligent eyewear that overlays computing in the world around you, is that rather than having a screen as an interface, computing's actually embedded in the world around you and you just use your hands and your voice and you interact with computing uh the same exact way that you would interact with a friend or with the world around you. And I think that's sort of the next evolution in terms of the way that we just remove more of this friction from computing. And then to put it in sort of in my input and output kind of framework, uh the big step change there, the big difference there is that computing output happens through see-through lenses in the glasses. Uh and the input is just your natural hands and and your voice. So, um that's certainly something that we're really excited about. And then, you know, we can talk futuristic sensors and all this kind of thing. But I I think that's sort of the next big step as it as it pertains to to computing and interfaces.

所以，那是下一步。然后，你还记得《黑镜》里那个有“颗粒”的剧集吗？那是我最喜欢的一集。

So, that's the next step. And then, do you remember that episode of Black Mirror where they had the grain? That's my favorite episode.

好的，我得去看看。

it. All right, I'll have to check it out.

这基本上是一个植入你头部的微型计算机，可以记录并保存你日常经历的一切，然后你可以回放。这一集的情节是，一对夫妇大吵一架，然后他们说：“好吧，我们回放一下，看看细节。”

It's basically this microcomputer that is implanted in your head so that you can actually record and save everything that you experience day-to-day. And then you can play it back. The premise of the episode is that this couple has a big fight, and they say, "Well, let's play it back. Let's look at the grain."

听起来很可怕。

Sounds terrifying.

嗯，我想这就是我的问题：你会选择加入吗？你是接受那个未来，还是拒绝那个未来？

Well, I guess that's my question: would you opt into that? Do you accept that future or reject that future?

嗯，如果回顾 Snapchat 创立之初，我们质疑的根本问题之一就是：为什么所有东西都要永久保存在网上？这毫无道理。我们生活的世界很大程度上是转瞬即逝的。几乎我们所有的对话，除了这次和少数几次，都没有被记录下来。事实上，当时互联网的运作方式——保存和存储一切——正在扭曲人际关系，因为人们觉得表达自己或分享一张自己认为不好看的照片、或更私密时刻的照片（比如在医院）时不太自在，他们不想保存或公开发布，只想和朋友分享。所以我认为，15 年前我们做的第一件事就是：技术应该模仿我们在现实世界中的互动方式，而不是仅仅因为技术能做到就创造一种完全不同的范式。总的来说，我会担心那种一切都被记录下来的未来。我认为隐私是人类表达、创造力和尝试糟糕想法而不感到尴尬的基础。它对一个健康运作的民主制度至关重要。所以，广义上讲，我不认为一个一切都被记录并永久保存的未来对人类有建设性或健康。也许对可怕的专制政权来说可以，但肯定不是我们希望看到的世界。

Well, if you go back to the founding of Snapchat, one of the fundamental things we questioned was why everything is saved forever online. It makes no sense. The world we live in is largely ephemeral. Almost all of our conversations, except for this one and a few here and there, are not recorded at all. In fact, a lot of the way the internet worked at the time, saving and storing everything was distorting human relationships because people feel less comfortable expressing themselves or sharing a photo where they think they don't look their best, or a photo of a more intimate moment, like they're in the hospital and they don't want to save or post that publicly. They just want to share it with their friend. So I think that was one of the first things we did 15 years ago: to say technology should actually resemble the way we interact in the real world, not create this whole other paradigm just because we can with technology. Overall, I would be concerned about that sort of future where everything is recorded. I think privacy is so foundational to human expression, to creativity, and to trying out a bad idea without feeling embarrassed. It's so important to a healthy functioning democracy. So broadly speaking, I don't think a future where everything is recorded and saved forever would be constructive or healthy for humanity. Maybe for a scary autocracy, but certainly not the world we'd like to see.

但你会愿意接受某种东西植入你的身体吗？

But would you be open to something being incorporated in your body?

在我身体里？

In my body?

对，比如就在皮肤下面。

Yeah, like just under the skin.

不，不要。

Yeah, no.

就像肚脐环那样在皮肤下面？

Just under the skin like a belly button ring?

我连纹身都没有。不，我不是。肚脐环？像 AI 肚脐环？我觉得 OpenAI 可能正在研发那个。

I mean, I don't even have a tattoo. No, I'm not. A belly button ring? Like an AI belly button ring? I think OpenAI may be working on that.

他们的下一个产品发布。他们要进军硬件了。肚脐环。

Their next product launch. They're going hardware. Belly button ring.

她差点就打了肚脐环，当她……

She almost got a belly button ring when she...

我阻止了她。

I stopped her from it.

那是大学一年级的事。我没有。

This was freshman year of college. I don't have one.

她没有。我也没有。但她难道不庆幸我阻止了她吗？这就是姐姐的作用。

She doesn't have one. I don't have one. But isn't she so lucky that I stopped her? That's what big sisters are for.

哇，被 Evan 曝光了。

Wow, put on blast with Evan.

如果是夹式的，我可能会考虑。

If it's a clip-on, I might consider.

好了，你在这里听到了。Evan 要试戴夹式肚脐环。

Okay, you heard it here. Evan's going to try a clip-on belly button ring.

除非是 AI 夹式肚脐环。

Only if it's an AI clip-on belly ring.

夹式肚脐……等等。

A clip-on belly button... Wait a minute.

即将推出。

Coming soon.

那么，Evan，当你谈到你面前的世界以及戴着眼镜体验那个世界时，我们想谈谈 AR 以及你对 AR 的信念。你在别人都还没看清之前就相信增强现实。你在 AR 中看到了什么，以及它如何融入我们的日常生活，而其他人没有看到？

So, Evan, as you were talking about the world in front of you and also experiencing that world with specs on, we want to talk about AR and your conviction in AR. You believed in augmented reality long before it was obvious to anyone else. What did you see in AR and how it fits into our daily lives that other people didn't see?

我热爱真实世界。我认为真实世界很棒，非常美丽。我认为与朋友和家人的关系是让生活有价值的东西。长期以来，计算一直在说：你必须离开那个世界，坐在台式机前或低头盯着小屏幕才能获得计算的价值。这种权衡对我来说一直很不公平。我记得小时候，为了用电脑，我不得不在午餐时间去计算机实验室，而其他人都在休息玩耍。现在方便了一点：你可以把电脑放在口袋里，但接着你坐在餐桌旁，有人却低头盯着手机，而不是想办法交流或一起玩游戏。这让我心碎。我认为在技术和计算的未来方面，这还不够好。所以很早以前，当我们尝试增强现实并看到人们在手机上使用滤镜的力量时，人们在这个小屏幕上与 AR 互动显得很愚蠢。当你举起手机与 AR 互动时，几乎就像透过纸巾筒看世界。这非常局限，而且需要你用手拿着手机。我们是人类；我们喜欢用手做其他事情。我们希望能够多任务处理。所以，计算要求我们付出太多，以至于将我们带离真实世界和当下，这种感觉在技术改变世界的能力方面既局限又不公平。很久以前，大约 12 年前，我们开始研发眼镜，目标是制造一种完全不同的计算机：一种适合眼镜的计算机，让你将计算融入周围的世界，并让你分享这些体验。所以，如果你戴着眼镜与某人坐在餐桌对面共进晚餐，你们可以一起构建东西，或一起玩耍，或一起学习。它将计算从几十年来一直是单人体验转变为共享体验。我认为这非常鼓舞人心且令人兴奋。

I love the real world. I think the real world is great. I think it's incredibly beautiful. I think relationships with friends and family are what make life worth living. And I think so much of computing for so long has said you have to leave that world and go sit in front of a desktop or stare down at a tiny screen to get the value of computing. That trade-off has always felt so unfair to me. I remember growing up, to use a computer I had to go in the computer lab at lunchtime while everyone else was playing at recess. Now today it's a little more convenient: you can carry your computer in your pocket, but then you're sitting at the dinner table and someone's staring down at their phone instead of finding a way to connect or play a game together. That breaks my heart. I don't think that's good enough when it comes to technology and the future of computing. So very early on, when we were experimenting with augmented reality and saw the power of lenses that people were using on their phones, it seemed silly that people were interacting with AR in this tiny little screen. It almost looks like staring through a paper towel tube at the world when you're holding up your phone to interact with AR. It's so limiting and requires you to use your hands to hold the phone. We're humans; we love using our hands for other things. We want to be able to multitask. So the idea that computing requires so much from us that it takes us out of the real world and out of the moment feels limiting and unfair in terms of technology's capacity to change the world. Quite a long time ago now, about 12 years ago, we started working on specs with the idea of making a computer that's totally different: a computer that fits into a pair of glasses, that allows you to put computing in the world around you, and allows you to share those experiences. So if you're sitting across the table from someone having dinner and you're wearing specs, you can actually build something together, or play together, or learn together. It takes computing from being a single-player experience that it has been for decades and turns it into something shared. I think that's really inspiring and exciting.

是的，我认为滤镜的好处是降低了创造的门槛。你可以轻松地戴上滤镜，不仅用它与人互动、与世界互动，而且你会觉得自己在做有趣且有创意的事情。

Yeah, I think the thing about lenses is it decreases the barrier to being creative. You can just easily throw on a lens and use that to not only interact with people and the world, but you feel like you're doing something fun and creative.

我认为滤镜的起源对 Snapchat 来说非常有益且强大。在 Snapchat 早期，人们会说：“我为什么要自拍？这毫无意义。”但是，一旦你给人们一种新的表达方式，比如吐彩虹、戴上搞笑的狗耳朵等等，人们就想和朋友分享这些时刻，这成为了一个连接或分享的机会，而这是他们原本没有的。我认为，这种真正的创造邀请，在滤镜的早期非常重要，为今天我们拥有的平台奠定了基础。

I think that origin of lenses was so helpful and powerful to Snapchat. In the early days of Snapchat, people said, 'Why would I take a selfie? That doesn't make any sense.' But as soon as you gave people a new way to express themselves, or vomit a rainbow, or put on funny dog ears, or whatever, people wanted to share those moments with their friends, and it became an opportunity to connect or to share that folks otherwise didn't have. That real invitation to create, I think, was so important in the early days of lenses, in terms of building that foundation to the platform we have today.

是的，我觉得创造力这个理念显然是 Snapchat 的核心支柱，而且我认为这很大程度上源于你。我觉得创造力对你个人来说非常重要。那么，你能稍微谈谈吗？创造力在你的生活中扮演什么角色？你是如何激发创造力的？为什么它对你如此重要？

Yeah, and I feel like that tenant of creativity, obviously, it's a core pillar of Snapchat, and I think it really stems from you. I think that creativity is very important to you personally. So can you just talk a little bit about that? What is the role of creativity in your life? How do you tap into being creative, and why is it so important to you?

是的，这很有趣。我就是停不下来。我不断地被各种事物启发，主要是其他人。使用我们服务的人，或者我们团队里那些有好玩点子的成员。我非常喜欢想出新的点子，尝试不同的方式来看待世界。我觉得这是无穷无尽的。今天早上在车里，我想到了一个让我很兴奋的新点子。所以走进办公室时，我的脚步都轻快了一些。肚脐眼 AI 会火起来的。我们将与 Tiger 姐妹合作推出它。它会大获成功。联合营销，全套方案。我们都想好了。

Yeah, it's funny. I just can't turn it off. I'm constantly inspired by all sorts of stuff, primarily by other people. The people who use our service, or our team members who've got great fun ideas. I really love coming up with new ideas, and playing around with different ways of seeing the world. I just find it endless. I was in the car this morning and I came up with a new idea that I'm very excited about. So it really put a little bounce in my step coming into the office. Belly button AI is going to be big. We're launching it in collaboration with the Tiger sisters. It's going to take off. Co-marketing, the whole thing. We got it figured out.

这还真敢说。

Claim that actually.

我否认。

I rebuke that.

所以，是的。我不知道。它就是能给我带来很多快乐。最有趣的部分是和团队一起做，因为你可以把一个像种子一样的想法，在和其他有创造力的人一起时，迅速构建并迭代。

So, yeah. I don't know. It is something that just brings me so much joy. The most fun part is like doing it together on a team, because you can take something that's a little seed of an idea and so quickly build on it and iterate when you've got other people who you can be creative with.

你会从去博物馆、艺术、建筑、阅读杂志中获得灵感吗？我是说很具体的那种。你如何从周围的世界获得灵感？是看电影之类的吗？

Do you get inspiration, I guess very tactically, from going to museums or art or architecture, reading magazines? What do you do to get inspired by the world around you? Is it consuming movies or what?

好问题。去博物馆或旅行之所以能带来灵感，是因为它们打破了你的日常规律。我认为这对有创造力的人来说是最重要的事情之一，对我自己也是如此。我觉得时不时这样做非常重要。我是一个非常注重规律的人。我喜欢在同一时间起床，做同样的事情。我的生活就是这样运作的。所以对我来说，通过去博物馆或旅行来打破这种规律，改变心理空间，变得非常重要。不知为何，仅仅改变参考框架或打破常规就能产生很多新想法。但我运动时也会有想法。所以这真是一件永不停歇的事情。

What a great question. The reason why going to a museum can be inspiring or traveling can be inspiring is just that it breaks your regular routine. I think that to me is like one of the most important things for creative people, but also just for myself. I think every now and then it's so important. I'm a very routine-oriented person. I like to get up at the same time, do the same thing. I really operate my life that way. So for me it becomes so important to break that up with a trip to the museum or travel or something like that just to change that mental space. For some reason, just changing the frame of reference or breaking the routine can generate so many new ideas. But I also have ideas when I'm exercising. So it's just a non-stop kind of thing.

它不会停止。

It doesn't stop.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得拥有一种创造力实践非常重要，但我们在社会中谈论得不够。我觉得这能改变一个人，而改变一个人就能改变整个社会。

I feel like having a creativity practice is something that's just really important that we don't talk about enough in society. I feel like it changes a person to have that and then in changing a person it changes society at large.

我真的很喜欢你这么说。最启发我的是：我在斯坦福时参加了产品设计项目。我最喜欢这个项目的一点是，他们的基本论点是每个人都有创造力，但被恐惧和随着年龄增长经历的事情所压抑。年轻人总是充满创造力，不断建造和绘画。但随着我们长大，我们压抑了这一点，不再分享疯狂的新想法，也不为创造力留出时间或空间。产品设计项目所做的就是宣称每个人都是有创造力的，事实上，与其等待闪电击中或苹果从树上掉下来砸到你的头，我们认为最重要的是你有一个可重复的创造过程。所以产品设计项目教授这个可重复的过程：从需求发现开始，通过与人交谈，了解他们不喜欢什么或希望改进什么。然后你迭代一系列不同的想法和解决方案，把它们带回给那些人，问他们觉得怎么样。你再迭代，获得更多反馈。你测试、制作原型，最终得到一个很酷的新产品或想法。通过创建结构化的可重复过程，去掉了创造力中模糊或可怕的部分，他们赋予了很多人创造力。

I really love that you said that. The thing that really inspired me the most: when I was at Stanford I was in the product design program. What I love the most about the product design program is that their fundamental thesis is that everyone is creative but it is suppressed by fear and by the events you go through as you get older. You get young people all the time, they're constantly creative and building things and drawing. Then as we get older, we suppress that and we don't share our new crazy ideas and we don't make that time or space to be creative. What the product design program did was to say every single person is creative and in fact, rather than waiting for lightning to strike or the apple to fall out of the tree and bop you on the head, what we think is most important is that you have a repeatable process to be creative. So the product design program teaches this repeatable process where you start with need finding by talking to people and understanding things that they don't like or things they wish they could improve. You then iterate on a bunch of different ideas and solutions to those problems, you take them back to those people and say what do you think? You iterate some more and get more feedback. You test, you prototype, and then ultimately you end up with a really cool new product or idea. By taking that amorphous or scary part of creativity away by creating the structured repeatable process, they empower so many people to be creative.

是的。我觉得这就像学习过程，但随后是一生的旅程，需要继续学习和锻炼，对吧？因为你在斯坦福时上了一节即兴表演课。那是对我学费的合理利用吗？我不知道，但那是专业小丑教的。

Yeah. I think it's like learning the process but then it's a lifelong journey to continue to learn and exercise it, right? Because you took an improv class when she was at Stanford. Was that a good use of my tuition money? I don't know, but it was taught by a professional clown.

那是在斯坦福戏剧系。当时我是商学院学生，但和研究生、本科生混在一起。

It was in the Stanford theater department. This is when I was a business school student but it was mixed with grad students, undergrads.

是的。这是一个很好的创造方式。从商学院的公共演讲沟通课走到戏剧系，我想：“好吧，即兴表演课时间到了。”它们有点关联，但这是一个感受创造力的好空间。我们的一个朋友 Jim Keys 说：“创造力是智慧在玩乐。”我非常喜欢这句话。

Yeah. And it was a good way to be creative. Going from my public speaking communications class at the business school to walking over to the theater department, I'm like, 'Okay, improv class time.' They are kind of tied and related, but it was a great space to feel creative. One of our friends, Jim Keys, says, 'Creativity is intelligence having fun.' Which I absolutely love that.

斯坦福商学院看起来太棒了。我大学二年级时有机会旁听了一节商学院课程。我当时想：“哇，这看起来像大学，但好得多，也更有趣。”而且压力更小，你不用担心 GPA。你纯粹出于好奇而学习。那是一次很棒的经历。

Stanford Business School seems so awesome. I got a chance to audit a business school class as a sophomore in college. I was just like, 'Wow, this seems like college, but way better and more fun.' And less stressful, you don't have to worry about your GPA. You're learning for the curiosity of it all. It was a fabulous experience.

顺着创造力这个话题，我们想谈谈你最近参加的 Met Gala。这可能是你参加过的播客中第一个问你这个的。

On this thread of creativity, we wanted to talk about the Met Gala that you went to recently. This is probably the first podcast that you've been on that asks you about that.

从来没人问过我。

Has ever asked me.

说实话，没有。

Honestly, no.

嗯。

Yeah.

嗯，我是说，从外面看，因为我们还没去过。但，但，但我是说，Met Gala 是标志性的，在时尚历史、创意运用上都是标志性的。所以我们想问问你在那里的经历。它看起来像外面那么神奇吗？

Well, I mean, you know, from the outside since we haven't been yet. But yet. Yet. But I mean, the Met Gala is iconic and iconic in its fashion history, in its use of creativity. And so we just wanted to ask about your experience there. Is it as magical as it looks from the outside?

这相当神奇。是的，真的很酷。太棒了……说实话，确实很神奇。这是一场对时尚的精彩庆祝。我不确定有多少人知道这场晚宴的历史，对吧？那就是当那个服装收藏创立时，它必须独立于博物馆的捐赠基金来筹资。所以他们为收藏创造了空间，但说：‘如果你想让这个收藏在这里，你必须自己出资，对吧？你要持续筹款来资助这个收藏。’因为那时，时尚不像今天这样被广泛视为艺术。所以我认为这段历史及其庆祝的意义非常深远。对我来说，显然设计师和创意令人难以置信，但那些裁缝、那些把如此精美绝伦的时尚作品拼凑起来的人——真的令人印象深刻，看到这些太酷了。

It's pretty magical. Yeah, it's really cool. It's such an amazing... Yeah, and not going to lie, it's pretty magical. It's an amazing celebration of fashion. And I'm not sure like too many people know the history of the Gala, right? Which is that when that costume collection was created, it had to be funded separately from the museum's endowment. So they created space for the collection, but they said, 'If you want this collection here, you're going to have to self-fund this, right? You're going to raise the money to fund the collection on an ongoing basis.' Because back then, fashion wasn't viewed as art in the way that it is, you know, so widely appreciated as art today. And so I think the history and what that celebrates is so meaningful. And to me, obviously the designers, the creativity is incredible, but the seamstresses, the people who put together this just exquisite, exquisite, exquisite piece of fashion — I mean it's really impressive, it's so cool to see.

是的，我能看出你对此真的很感兴趣，你真的很喜欢它——那些细节。部分原因是不是因为你的妻子 Miranda 非常参与时尚，你通过她学到了这个新的视角？

Yeah, I mean I can tell that you are genuinely interested in it and you're genuinely like you love it — the details that go into it. Is that partially because you know your wife Miranda is so involved in fashion and you kind of learned this new vantage point through her?

是的，我是说，我每天都穿同样的衣服，所以……

Yeah, I mean, I wear the same thing every day, so...

我没注意到。

I hadn't noticed.

她说：‘亲爱的，你觉得我每天穿同样的衣服怎么样？’我说：‘我不知道，我是说你可以试试，我想。’她对时尚真的很热情，这激励了我。所以是的，当然。而且我觉得她对此了解很多，品味很好，所以在一起后我确实对时尚了解得更多、更欣赏了。但我觉得我们的连接点是对创意和设计的欣赏，无论是时尚还是其他什么。向她学习非常有趣，她在这个领域确实很出色。

She was like, 'Honey, what do you think about me wearing the same thing every day?' I was like, 'I don't know, I mean you could try it, I guess.' She's really passionate about fashion and that's something that inspires me. And so yeah, definitely. And I think she knows so much about it and she's got pretty taste, so yeah, it's something that I've definitely grown to know more about and appreciate more being together. But I think where we sort of our point of connection is that appreciation of the creativity and of the design, whether that's fashion or anything else. But it's been so much fun to learn from her and she's certainly brilliant in that space.

是的，我觉得你们俩都是创始人，住在一起，一起发展事业，这很酷、令人印象深刻，也有点令人向往。我想知道那是什么感觉？你们从彼此身上学到了什么？你从她身上学到了什么？

Yeah, I mean I think it's so cool and impressive and kind of aspirational that both of you are founders and you live together, you grow your businesses together. I guess what is that like and what do you learn from each other? What have you learned from her?

哦天哪，数不胜数。所以退一步说，我们相遇时我 24 岁。Flynn 当时大概三岁。我们坐在朋友在纽约举办的一场晚宴上，挨着坐。

Oh my goodness, it's endless. So to take a step back, I think I was 24 when we met. Flynn, I think, was three at the time. We were sat next to each other at a dinner our friends were hosting in New York.

那 Miranda 当时多大？

And then how old was Miranda then?

哦天哪。呃，我不该说的。这对我个人很重要，因为我是单身，所以你知道。呃，她比我大 7 岁。所以，我们坐在晚宴上挨着，真的挺合得来，玩得很开心。她从我盘子里拿东西吃。我说：‘你想要的话可以拿去。’坐在她旁边的女士，Glenda，《Harper's Bazaar》的主编，转向 Miranda——我当时不知道——转向 Miranda 说：‘我觉得你们俩会结婚。’Miranda 说：‘什么？’我们交换了联系方式，大约一个月后又聊了起来。火花肯定有，但我觉得自己没机会。所以我想：‘我可不想在这里心碎。’

Oh gosh. Uh, I'm not supposed to say. It's important for me personally because I'm single, so you know. Uh, she's 7 years older than me. So, we were sat next to each other at this dinner and we really kind of connected and were having fun. She was like eating dinner off my plate. I'm like, 'You can have it if you want.' And the woman who was sitting next to her, Glenda, who's the editor of Harper's Bazaar, turns to Miranda — I didn't know this at the time — turns to Miranda and is like, 'I think you guys are going to get married.' And Miranda is like, 'What?' And we exchanged contact details and ended up talking again like a month later or something like that. The spark was definitely there, but I thought I had no chance. So I was like, 'I don't really want to get heartbroken here.'

所以你一个月后给她发了消息？

So you did you message her a month later?

她一个月后给我发了消息，那时我想：‘好吧，也许我确实有机会。’然后我们第一次约会，去了一个瑜伽课。现在我们真的在回忆往事了。我人生中第一次瑜伽课，我们的第一次约会。

She messaged me a month later and that's when I was like, 'Okay, maybe I do have a chance.' And we went on our first date, which was to a yoga class. Now we're really going down memory lane here. My first ever yoga class, our first date.

等等，你从没去过瑜伽课就同意了，太勇敢了。

Wait, that's so brave that you agreed to a yoga class having never gone before.

太疯狂了。我打电话给我姐姐说：‘瑜伽课上我该做什么？’那时还没有 AI。你不能问该怎么做。我真的问：‘我穿什么？我做什么？’

It was wild. I called my sister and I was like, 'What do I do at a yoga class?' Like this was before AI. You couldn't ask like what do you do. I literally was like, 'What do I wear? What do I do?'

你不得不打电话给你姐姐。

You had to call your sister.

我喜欢准时，所以我提前了大约 15 分钟到瑜伽课，那是一位著名的昆达里尼瑜伽老师之类的。我结识了一位和妻子一起在那里的老先生。而 Miranda 迟到了 30 分钟。所以我已经深入课程了，和我的新伙伴一起做，我们在唱诵。那真是……很棒。我学到了很多。总之，回到我们的关系。我觉得非常有帮助的一点是，她从小就在公众视野中长大。所以她非常习惯那种压力和审视以及随之而来的一切。而在我经历很多变化的时候——我天生是个非常注重隐私的人。Miranda 非常开放，在那种环境中很自在。我不是。我担心公开演讲。我不喜欢被关注。看到她在所有这些疯狂的公开场合中的优雅和沉着，真是不可思议，从中学习也很棒。然后另一件从一开始就很清楚的事是，她是一位了不起的母亲。那对我来说非常重要。看到她对 Flynn 是多么好的母亲，真的激励了我。我们现在有四个男孩。我一直想要一个大家庭。我从小就知道我想要一个大家庭。我想早点结婚。我父母生我时年纪比较大，我真的希望有精力追着孩子们跑。所以，建立我们的家庭并向她学习这么多，真是太棒了。而且，正如你所说，我们在已经创立了自己的公司时相遇，这很好。我们都已经有很多事情在忙了。

And I like to be punctual, so I was like 15 minutes early to the yoga class, to some famous Kundalini yoga teacher or something. And I sort of befriended this elderly guy who was there with his wife. And Miranda comes like 30 minutes late. So I was deep into this class, doing it with my new buddy over here, like we're chanting. It was a whole thing. It was great. I learned a lot. Anyway, so back to our relationship. I think one of the things that was so helpful is that she had grown up in the public eye from such a young age. And so she was so used to that pressure and the scrutiny and everything that comes along with that. And so at a time in my life when I was going through a lot of that change — I'm naturally a very private person. Miranda's very open and comfortable in those sorts of environments. I was not. I was worried about public speaking. I didn't like the attention. And it was so incredible to see her grace and poise in all of these wild public situations, and to really learn from that was amazing. And then the other thing that was so clear from the very beginning is she's a great mom. And that was something that was really important to me. And so to see what a great mom she was with Flynn really inspired me. And we've got four boys now. I really wanted a big family. I knew from a young age I wanted a big family. I wanted to get married young. My parents had me when they were quite a bit older, and I really wanted to have the energy to chase our kids around. And so yeah, it's been just amazing building our family and learning so much from her. And I think, as you point out, it's great that we met each other when we'd already created our companies. We already both had a ton going on.

所以，从一开始我们就想出了如何真正共同建立一个强大的家庭，即使有经营企业的混乱，以及生活可能比我成长过程中预期的更公开的方式。

And so, you know, from the beginning we figured out how to really build a strong family together even with all the chaos of running businesses and, you know, living life in, you know, maybe a more you know, public way than than I had expected I would growing up.

你觉得她从你身上学到了什么？

What do you think she learns from you?

哦，天哪。嗯……

Oh, gosh. Um

等她上我们播客时得问问她。

We'll have to ask her when she's on our podcast.

你说得对。好主意，真是个好主意。我很想听听她对此的看法。嗯，天哪，我不知道。呃……

You go. That's a great idea. That's a great idea. I would love to hear her her her thoughts on that. Um Gosh, I don't know. Uh

你可以夸自己。我们允许你这么做。

You're allowed to compliment yourself. We give you We give you permission.

嗯，我觉得，有一个真正关心你、希望你成功的人给你他们的观点总是很有帮助的。所以，我不知道这是不是我提供的一件事，但我想我总是在那里，像一个教练一样，不是不愿意说难听的话，或者推动我认为能帮助她的事业、她作为领导者或帮助她成功的事情。我认为拥有关心你、不怕说实话的朋友和家人非常重要。米兰达对我非常坦诚，所以我试着以温和的方式对她做同样的事。

Well, I I think, you know, it's always helpful to have someone else's perspective who really cares about you and wants you to succeed uh to give you their point of view. So, I don't know if it'd be one thing I've offered, but I think I I'm always there and available as like, you know, a coach who's not willing, you know, who's who's not like unwilling to say the tough thing or to, you know, uh um push on something that I think will help her business or her as a leader or help her, you know, succeed. I I think it's just so important to have friends and family that care about you that are not afraid to keep it real. Miranda keeps it very real uh with me, so I try to, in a gentle way, do the same with her.

是啊，你之前说过她对你非常坦诚。

Yeah, I mean, you've said before that she's brutally honest with you.

是的，这有帮助，你知道。有时会痛，但有帮助。

Yeah, it it helps, you know. Sometimes it hurts, but it helps.

她对你非常坦诚的例子是什么？

What's an example of something that she's brutally honest with you about?

嗯……

Um

比如，她是不是在你们刚开始时就给了你一套护肤流程？

Like, did she give you like a glow-up skin-care routine when you guys first

当然。

Well, for sure.

哦，绝对是的。她说：“怎么了？”就像，我的皮肤很干。实际上，那真是件好事，因为我有一个清晰的二年级记忆。我排队时，老师让我们手拉手，我拉着旁边女孩的手，她说：“你的手好干。”然后我就有了这个时刻，这个伤疤般的……

Oh, absolutely. Yeah, she's like, "What is wrong?" Like, my skin is so dry. Actually, that's like a really great thing because I have this like vivid memory of second grade. I was like standing in line and the teacher had us all like hold hands and I like held hands with the girl next to me and she was like, "Your hands are so dry." And I like have this like moment, this like scarring sca- of like

那会一直跟着你。

That'll stick with you.

我觉得这很搞笑。我最后和一个有很棒护肤品的人在一起了。我的手变软了，你明白吗？我觉得我在手部皮肤方面成功了。

like, I think it's like hilarious. I like ended up with someone who has like this amazing skin care. My like hands are softer, you know what I mean? I'm like, I've I've I've made it, you know, in terms of my hand uh skin.

你的皮肤现在比以前好多了，因为你以前经常晒伤。

Your skin is much better now that it used to be cuz you used to you used to get sunburned a lot.

而且很干，是的。各种问题。所以在这方面确实好转了，我很感激。

And very dry, yeah. All sorts of problems. So, things have definitely gotten better in that regard and uh and I'm I'm grateful for that.

关于爱和关系这个话题，既然这是 Tiger Sisters，我们想问你，你最实用的约会或恋爱建议是什么？特别是对单身人士。

I mean, on this topic of love and also relationships, we wanted to ask you since this is Tiger Sisters, what is your most practical dating or relationship advice? Specifically for people who are single.

你知道，我认为没有什么比真正清晰的沟通更重要了。我认为这在任何关系中都非常有价值，尤其是在约会中。我认为，人们越能坦率地说明他们在寻找什么、想要什么，就越能形成牢固的关系基础，也能消除那些我认为毫无成效、浪费时间的游戏。所以，有时明确说出“嘿，这就是我想要的”可能很可怕。我和米兰达刚认识时，她说她刚结束一段婚姻，单身了一年左右，她说她还在摸索。我说那很好，但我实际上在寻找认真的关系。所以如果你不感兴趣，那就不适合我。所以从一开始就明确表达，她说哦，好吧，没想到一个 24 岁的人会这样，但如果你想要这样，那我们就看看进展如何。对我来说，提前说清楚非常重要。所以我认为人们越少玩游戏，越直接说出他们真正寻找的东西、对他们重要的东西，并以充满爱和积极的方式沟通，就能形成牢固关系的基础。

You know, I think there's nothing more important than really clear communication. I think it's so valuable in any relationship and certainly in dating. I think you know, the more that folks can be upfront and clear about what they're looking for and what they want. I I I think that's just forms a really strong foundation of a relationship and I think it also gets rid of like the game playing which I think is so unproductive and a waste of people's time. And so I think you know, sometimes it's scary to be clear about like hey, this is what I'm looking for. with with Miranda when we had met early on, she was like hey, like you know, I she had just you know, gotten out of a a marriage. She'd been single for a year or something like that and she was like hey, like I'm just kind of figuring it out and I was like that's cool but like I'm actually looking for something serious. So like if you're not interested in that then like this isn't the right fit for me, you know. Um and so I think just being clear from the beginning she was like oh, okay, like I wasn't expecting that from a 24 year old but like if that's if that's what you want to do like you know, let's let's see how this goes and I think it was really important for me to just say that upfront and be clear clear about that. So I just think the more people skip the games and get straight to like actually what they're looking for, what's important to them and can communicate that in like a loving and and positive way. I think that forms a foundation of a strong relationship.

就在那节瑜伽课后，你说——

Right after that yoga class you were like

是的，

Yeah,

“我在找认真的关系。”你知道，这——

I'm looking for something serious. You know, this

在她的老板之后，我说我在找认真的关系。沟通是一个适用于很多方面的话题，无论是闲聊、演讲、社交，而 Matt Abrahams 是最擅长的人。他实际上是 Shari 的 TED 演讲教练，也是斯坦福商学院著名的沟通学教授。无论你在哪里听播客，都可以看看他的节目 Think Fast, Talk Smart。好了，我们来谈谈美学和你的设计感。我觉得这对你一直很重要，是你产品设计思维中与生俱来的一部分。你怎么知道某样东西在设计上让你感觉良好？

After her boss and I was like I'm looking for something serious. Communication is a topic that applies to so many things whether it's small talk, presenting, networking and Matt Abrahams is the best to do it. So he was actually Shari's TED Talk coach and he is also a renowned professor of communications at Stanford's Business School. Check out his podcast Think Fast, Talk Smart wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, so let's talk a little bit about aesthetics and sort of your design sensibility. So I feel like that's always been very important to you and very much like an innate part of your product design thinking. How do How do you know when something feels good to you design-wise?

我认为这取决于我们在谈论什么，对吧？设计有很多不同的部分。设计的核心是某样东西的运作方式，对吧？在我看来，运作方式的基础是背后的哲学。比如，你想实现什么？这就是设计与艺术的区别。艺术可以是任何我想要的样子，是我表达自己。但设计是表达一种观点或想法，或者试图提供一种服务。所以设计有一个目标，而艺术不一定有。有些艺术当然可能有，但设计几乎总是有一个真实的目标。所以对我来说，关键是理解一个产品、服务或新图标最终想要实现什么？我们制造的东西的真正目的是什么？如果我能非常清楚地理解这一点，设计几乎就会从那里显现出来。它变得显而易见，对吧？想想 Snapchat。Snapchat 的核心是快速发送图像，对吧？Snapchat，就像图片聊天。为了视觉化地传递信息，快速来回发送图像是最基本的事情。所以我们做了非常具体的设计选择。我们打开相机，这很不同，我认为现在仍然与几乎所有其他应用不同。我们让在发送页面上选择朋友变得非常容易，然后发送你的消息。

I think it really depends what we're talking about, right? I think there are so many different parts of design. At the core of design is is really like the way that something works, right? And the foundation of the way that something works, in my opinion, is really the philosophy behind it. Like, what are you trying to achieve? And I think that's what makes design different than art, right? Like, art is, you know, whatever I want it to be. It's me expressing myself, right? But it Design is really expressing a point of view or expressing an idea or um you know, trying to provide a service. And so, design really has an objective in a way that art doesn't necessarily. Um some art uh certainly may, but design, I think there's almost always a real objective behind it. And so, for me, it's about understanding what is the a product or a service or a new icon. Like, what is it really trying to achieve at the end of the day? What is really the purpose uh of whatever it is that we're making? And if I can understand that very, very clearly, the design almost like reveals itself from there. It becomes obvious, right? So, you think about Snapchat. At the core of Snapchat was the idea about of sending an image very, very quickly, right? Snapchat. Like, picture chat. Uh and and in order to to message visually, sending images back and forth super fast was the foundationally the most important thing. So, we made very specific design choices. We opened to the camera, which was different. I think still is different than almost every other app out there. We made it really easy to pick your friends on the send to page, you know, and then and then send your message.

然后我们在工程方面做了大量工作，Bobby 发明了一种快速发送图片的新方法，这在当时是一个重大突破，因为以前在手机上发送一张图片需要一分钟左右。而通过 Snapchat，只需要几秒钟。所以，我认为当你真正理解某件事想要达成的目标和它的目的时，设计自然就水到渠成了。

And then we did a bunch of work on the engineering side, and Bobby invented a new way of sending images very quickly, which at the time was like a big breakthrough, because sending an image at the time took a minute or something on your phone. And with Snapchat, it took seconds. So, I think when you can really understand what something is trying to achieve and understand its purpose, then the design kind of flows from there.

我很喜欢这一点，因为我在应用里能感受到。我在去商学院之前曾在 LinkedIn 工作过，在那里做了 5 年的产品设计。我觉得 Snapchat 的应用非常有活力。尽管我很喜欢 LinkedIn，但我不会说 LinkedIn 的应用有活力。

I love that because I can feel that in the app. I used to work at LinkedIn prior to going to business school. I was there for 5 years designing products and I would say Snapchat's app feels very alive. As much love as I have for LinkedIn, like I wouldn't call the LinkedIn app, it doesn't feel alive.

专业是个好词。

Professional would be a good word.

它感觉很专业，但没有活力。

It feels very professional. Not alive.

高效。

Proficient.

所以，我这么说绝无贬义——Snapchat 一直感觉不那么精致，但比其他平台更有活力。这是有意为之的选择吗？

So and I mean this in the best way, like Snapchat has felt always less polished, but like more alive than other platforms. Was that an intentional choice?

让人们在使用 Snapchat 时感到自在、能够自如表达自己，这一点非常重要。如果你太一本正经，就很难在当下轻松地发送一张图片，对吧？我们试图用 Snapchat 做的一件事，就是从根本上改变人们对摄影的看法。在 Snapchat 之前，你拍的每一张照片都是为了永久保存。所以你其实并不经常拍照，只在特殊场合才拍。很难想象 15、20 年前的情况就是这样，但摄影确实是为了记录生命中最重要的时刻。这意味着摄影工具也截然不同：你需要好的光线、完美的构图，可能还要人像效果之类的。而通过 Snapchat，我们试图改变相机的整个本质和核心目的。事实上，如今相机的主要用途是沟通——在 15 年的时间里发生这种变化，想想都觉得疯狂。人们从主要用相机记录重要时刻，变成了主要用相机和别人聊天。这种转变的一部分，就是打造一个不那么严肃的应用，让你不觉得自己是在一个像普通相机那样的肖像工作室里，而是感觉在一个可以和朋友随意聊天的地方，这才是 Snapchat 的真正意义。所以很多设计选择、活泼的颜色等等，都是为了营造一种更随意的氛围，让你感到可以自由发挥创意，而不是必须摆好姿势拍出完美的照片。

It's so important for people to feel comfortable expressing themselves on Snapchat. And if you take yourself too seriously, it's very hard to feel comfortable sending an image in the moment, right? And one of the things that we were trying to do with Snapchat is fundamentally change the nature of how people thought about photography. So prior to Snapchat, every photo you ever took was designed to be saved forever. So you actually didn't take them very often. You only took photos at special events. I mean, it's hard to imagine that this was the case, you know, 15, 20 years ago, but photography was really about saving life's most important moments, right? And that meant that the tools for photography were really different. You really needed great lighting and the perfect framing and maybe a portrait effect or something like that. And with Snapchat, we were trying to change the entire nature of the camera and what its core purpose was. And in fact, the majority use case of the camera today is communication, which is crazy to think in a 15-year period of time. People went from mostly using cameras to save important moments to mostly using their camera to talk with other people. And part of that transition was creating an app that didn't take itself too seriously, so that you didn't feel like you were in a portrait studio like a normal camera, that you felt like you were in a place you could just talk casually with your friends, which is really what Snapchat is all about. So a lot of the design choices and the playful colors and those sorts of things are about creating a more casual atmosphere where you feel comfortable being creative, not that you have to pose for the perfect photo.

是的。而且我觉得 Snap 在这方面一直处于前沿。我现在要夸夸 Jean。通过 Snapchat，她拥有超过 50 项 AI 专利。

Yeah. And I also feel like Snap has been on the cutting edge of this. I get to brag about Jean now. Through Snapchat, she has over 50 AI patents.

哇！

Woo!

和你们一起。

With you guys.

哇！真棒。50 项，其实挺多的。是的。

Woo! I love that. 50 That's a lot actually. Yeah.

没错。

Right.

而且这其实只是我们实际发明的一小部分，只是我们最终提交了的那些，比如有时间提交的那些。是的。

And it's also it's like a fraction of what we actually invented. It's just what we ended up submitting. Like had time to submit. Yeah.

太棒了。提交这些专利很贵的。

That's awesome. It's expensive to submit those.

嗯，有意思的是，也许你们应该提交更多专利，因为你们处于前沿。特别是眼镜和可穿戴设备，比如面部眼镜，过去几年竞争对手有很多进展。你如何看待 Snap 与竞争对手的整体关系？你过去也谈到过，你们为其他公司打下了很多基础，他们可能也会窃取这些想法。但在可穿戴设备方面，我觉得过去几年竞争越来越激烈，你认为 Snap 在可穿戴设备上与那些热门的新竞争对手相比，差异化在哪里？

Well, it's funny because maybe y'all should submit more because y'all are on the cutting edge and I think especially with specs too and wearables like over the face glasses over the last few years there's been a lot of advancements with competitors. How do you think about Snap in general with competitors? You've talked about this in the past too, how you guys lay a lot of the foundation for other companies to build on and also potentially steal those ideas. But also with the wearables, I think it's been really heating up over the last few years and where do you see Snap differentiating with the wearables compared to the hot new competitors?

是的，好问题。我认为，让我对眼镜和我们在眼镜方面的工作如此兴奋的一点是，我们如此明确地专注于这个领域这么长时间，以至于我们在很多方面都积累了技术优势。现在很难谈论它，因为人们还没有看到下一代产品。但我认为人们会意识到，它反映了我们对全栈的掌控。从开发者工具到渲染引擎，再到操作系统本身，再到我们自行设计和制造的光学引擎——它是世界上性能最高的光学引擎——还有一堆我们尚未公布的东西。所有这些加在一起，意味着我们将能够提供无与伦比的产品体验。这让我非常兴奋，而且非常难以复制，因为我们解决的技术难题非常困难。我们长期专注于这些领域的投资。然后再加上开发者工具等生态系统和其他专有技术，我认为它就不是像软件功能那样可以简单复制粘贴的了。这正是我们投资硬件领域和构建自有开发者生态系统的吸引力所在，因为我们逐渐意识到，如果只是一个新的软件功能，就很容易被复制，在 AI 时代更是如此。现在你可以在几分钟内复制几乎任何软件。所以，这向人们说明，如果你想实现长期差异化并建立有真正护城河的业务，就必须打造一个生态系统，比如我们的增强现实生态系统或内容生态系统，或者拥有像我们消息业务那样的网络效应。因此，很早以前，由于我们一直被竞争对手无情地模仿，我们就一直在思考如何随着时间的推移建立这些更具防御性的护城河。

Yeah. What a great question. So, I think one of the things that actually makes me so excited about specs and our work on glasses in general is that we've been focused on it so clearly for such a long period of time that we have really compounded our technical advantages in so many different ways. And I think it's hard to talk about it now because people haven't seen the next generation product. But what I think people will realize is that it reflects our ownership of the full stack. So, everything from the developer tools to the rendering engine to the operating system itself, to the optical engine which we have designed and built ourselves to be the highest performance, most performant optical engine in the world, and then a bunch of other stuff we haven't announced yet. All of that together means that we are going to be able to deliver a product experience that will be unmatched. And I think that that is something that's really exciting to me and very, very hard to replicate because the technical advancements and the problems we've solved are so hard to solve. They're such difficult problems and we've been focused on investing in these areas for such a long period of time. And then when you layer on the ecosystem with the developer tools and all of this other proprietary technology, I think it becomes something that you can't just copy paste like a software feature, right? And that's one of the things that was so appealing to us about investing in the hardware space and on building our own developer ecosystem because we realized over time that, you know, if it's just a new software feature, it's super easy to copy and that's never been more true today with AI, right? I mean, now you can copy almost any piece of software in a couple minutes. So, I think it's really illustrating for folks that if you want to differentiate long term and build a business with a real moat, it has to be an ecosystem like our augmented reality ecosystem or our content ecosystem or have network effects like our messaging business. So, very early on because we were so and are so relentlessly copied by competitors, we've thought about how to build those more defensible moats over time.

嗯，是的。Shiree 有计算机科学学位，所以你说全栈的时候她很兴奋。

Mhm. Yeah. Shiree has a computer science degree, so she got excited when you said full stack.

嗯，这就是护城河，对吧？能够触及流程的每一个部分，并随着时间的推移创造这些极难复制的网络效应。我想 LinkedIn 可能也是这样——我不是在批评他们，我很喜欢在那里的时光——但他们的一个标志性优势就是网络效应，这确实很难复制。

Well, that's I mean, that's the moat, right? It's being able to touch every part of the process and also create these network effects over time that it's extremely hard to replicate. I think that might be LinkedIn's maybe like I don't mean to be railing on them. I loved my time there, but like one of their claim to fame is like their network effect, which is really hard to replicate.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。我觉得 Evan，你的愿景一直如此清晰。我不知道你是否像前几年那样充分地向世界表达过它。

Yeah. I mean, I feel like Evan, your vision is and has been so clear for so long. Like, I don't know if you fully expressed it to the world as much like in previous years.

我想知道，你认为市场忽略了什么，而你知道并看到了关于公司和公司未来的什么？

I wonder, what do you think it is that the market is missing versus what you know and what you see about the company and the future of the company?

嗯，我认为如果你看看今天的投资者以及他们对 Snap 的真正要求，他们是通过社交媒体公司的视角来看待我们，比如像 Meta 之类的，而没有真正理解让 Snapchat 独特的属性。我认为人们确实理解和欣赏的一点是，我们拥有庞大且高度活跃的用户群，近十亿人使用我们的服务。但我认为我们今天不足之处在于，将这种庞大的用户群和参与度转化为更高的广告收入增长率。我认为当你深入挖掘时，过去几年我们真正在做的是，从一个高度依赖北美大客户、主要专注于品牌广告的业务，转型为面向中小客户的下漏斗效果广告业务，这是一个更加多元化的广告业务。但这一转型一直充满挑战。

Well, I think if you look at investors today and what they're really asking of Snap, they are looking at us through the lens of a social media company, like a Meta or something like that, without really understanding the attributes that make Snapchat unique. I think one of the things people do understand and appreciate is that we have a huge, highly engaged audience of nearly a billion folks using our service. But I think the area where we're falling short today is on converting that huge audience and engagement into higher rates of advertising revenue growth. And I think when you dig under the hood, really what we've been doing over the past couple of years is transitioning from a business that was highly dependent on large customers in North America, primarily focused on brand advertising, to lower funnel performance advertising with small and medium customers, which is a much more diversified advertising business. But that transition has been challenging.

是的，这很有挑战性，我认为投资者……

Yeah, it's been challenging and I think investors are...

这超级有挑战性，很难做到。实际上只有 Meta 和 Google 建立了非常大的效果导向型业务。TikTok 在一定程度上也算。

It's super challenging and hard to do. And really only Meta and Google have developed very large performance-oriented businesses. TikTok to some degree.

是的。你认为市场用来衡量 Snap 的基准是什么？

Yeah. Do you think the benchmark that the market is holding you Snap against?

我认为他们仍然过度关注广告收入。我认为我们的广告收入会随着时间的推移重新加速，因为正如我提到的，我们有一个非常快速增长的中小客户业务。而且总的来说，我们在美国以外的大客户业务非常强劲。所以实际上，问题归结为这个传统的美国品牌导向广告需要重新加速。我认为如果我们能在这方面取得一些进展，投资者会对广告产品感到满意。但他们真正忽略的是，我们也利用了 Snapchat 的巨大参与度和热情，建立了其他收入来源。比如我们的直接收入业务，现在年化收入超过 10 亿美元，上一季度同比增长 87%。所以我认为人们还没有意识到 Snapchat 正在日益多元化其收入，而且我认为这些方式长期来看更具粘性和持久性。然后，我认为人们对 Specs 和我们眼镜业务的未来确实存在疑问，主要是因为他们还没有看到任何东西。所以我认为，很难为你尚未看到、尚未使用或尚未尝试的东西承保巨大的长期投资。因此，我认为随着我们度过这一年，人们能够实际戴上或拿到下一代 Specs，他们将能够看到这款产品的可能性，以及为什么我们有如此高的信心。所以我认为，对于投资者来说，很难在广告增长放缓的同时承保巨大的长期投资。但我认为如果广告增长能稍微恢复，人们会更愿意欣赏直接收入的故事。然后，当他们看到 Specs 时，他们会理解我们在过去 12 年里投资了数十亿美元的东西。

I think they're still overly focused on advertising revenue. I think our advertising revenue will reaccelerate over time because, as I mentioned, we have this very fast-growing small medium customer business. And generally speaking, our large customer business outside of the United States is very strong. So it really just comes down to this legacy US sort of brand oriented advertising that needs to re-accelerate. And I think if we can make some progress there, investors will be pleased with the ads product. But the thing they're really missing is that we've also taken this huge amount of engagement and passion for Snapchat and built other revenue streams. Like our direct revenue business, which is over a billion run rate business now, growing 87% year-over-year in the prior quarter. And so, I think people are not yet appreciating that Snapchat is increasingly diversifying its revenue in ways that I think are much stickier and durable for the long term. And then, I think people really have a question mark around Specs and the future of our glasses business, mostly because they haven't seen anything yet. And so, I think it's really hard to underwrite huge long-term investment in something you haven't seen yet or haven't been able to use or haven't been able to try. So, I think as we get through the year and people are able to actually put the next gen of Specs on their face or in their hands, they're going to be able to see what's possible with the product and why we have such a high degree of conviction. And so, I think for investors, it's hard to underwrite slower ad growth and then huge long-term investment. But I think if ad growth can recover a little bit, people will be more willing to appreciate the direct revenue story. And then, when they see Specs, they'll understand what we've been investing billions of dollars into over the last 12 years.

是的。你认为你的心态，因为它如此长期导向，可能有点不太契合公开市场？

Yeah. Do you think it's like your mindset because it's so long-term oriented is maybe just like a little bit off, like not really a total fit with public markets?

我认为你提出了一个很好的观点，即在上市公司中进行长期投资非常非常困难。而且这又因一个事实而加剧：如果你看看现在上市公司 CEO 的平均任期，我认为大约是 4 年左右。如果 CEO 任期这么短，你怎么能在科技领域做出真正有意义的事情？你怎么能坚持这些非常重要的长期投资？你看看任何这些深刻的技术变革，它们不会在几年内发生。这需要很长时间。我的意思是，显然 LLM 的最新突破就是这种情况，对吧？数十年的研究才达到那个点。或者以智能手机为例，每个人都认为它是一夜成功，但 iPhone 在第一年就出货了数十万台，而这建立在苹果在过去十年取得的巨大进步之上。所以我认为，在科技领域，人们总是很容易把这些发展称为一夜成功，但我认为真正激励我们的人，比如 Jensen 这样的人，或者看看 Bezos 取得的成就，或者看看 Elon。我的意思是，他不久前把特斯拉从破产中拯救出来，对吧？所以我认为人们很容易忘记，所有这些不可思议的企业家的决定性特征实际上是他们的痛苦承受能力极高。我的意思是，人们不断地批评和嘲笑 Jensen、Jeff 或 Elon 的愿景和他们试图实现的目标。所以我认为，这是为长期而建设的一部分，是创新的一部分。提前承认这一点，这样当人们批评你或说你的想法愚蠢时，你就不会感到惊讶。这非常重要，因为你必须能够建立韧性，以在充斥当今公开市场的所有怀疑、公众压力或短期主义中执行。

I think you raise a good point, which is that investing in the long term is very, very hard in public companies. And it's compounded by the fact, if you look at the average tenure for public CEOs now, I think it's like 4 years or something. How do you do something really meaningful in technology if CEO tenure is so short? How do you see through these really important long-term investments? And you look at any of these profound technology shifts, they don't happen in a couple of years. It takes a really long time. I mean, that's certainly the case obviously with the latest breakthroughs in LLMs, right? Decades of research to get to that point. Or the smartphone for example, which everyone views as an overnight success, but the iPhone was shipping hundreds of thousands of units in its first year and that was building on so much progress that Apple had made over the prior decade. So, I think it's always really easy in technology to look at these developments and call them overnight successes, but I think the folks who really inspire us, the Jensens of the world or you look at what Bezos was able to accomplish or look at Elon. I mean, he saved Tesla from bankruptcy, right? Not too long ago. And so, I think it's really easy for folks to forget that the defining characteristic of all these incredible entrepreneurs is actually that their pain tolerance was incredibly high. I mean, people were just constantly criticizing and ridiculing Jensen or Jeff or Elon for their vision and what they were trying to accomplish. And so, I think that's part of building something for the long term. That's part of innovating. Acknowledging that up front so you're not surprised when people are criticizing you or calling your ideas stupid. That's really important because you have to be able to build the resilience to execute through all that sort of doubt or public pressure or short-termism that pervades public markets today.

然后碾压那些黑子。

And then stunting on the haters.

那也是。

That too.

你觉得那是个专业术语吗？

You think that's a technical term?

我的意思是，这很有趣。我回想起 Snapchat 的早期。没有人认为 Snapchat 能成功。我的意思是，我们早期去找的投资者都说：‘是啊，祝你好运。试着和 Facebook 竞争吧。他们已经锁定了市场，对吧？’所以我认为，这是我们业务建设的一个主题，当然总是存在怀疑，尤其是在你创新的时候。因为为了创新，你必须做一些不显而易见的事情，对吧？这违背常规，不同于人们今天看待世界的方式。所以这就是为什么长期创新的结合如此困难，因为你在研究一些从根本上被误解的东西，否则它就不是创新。

I mean, it's funny. I think back to the early days of Snapchat. Nobody thought Snapchat could work. I mean, our early investors we went to talk to were like, 'Yeah, good luck. Try competing with Facebook. They've got it locked down, right?' And so, I think that's been one of the themes of building our business that there is of course constant doubt, especially when you're innovating. Because in order to innovate, you have to do something that's not obvious, right? That cuts against the grain, that's different from the way that people see the world today. And so that's why this combination of innovating over the long term is so difficult, because you're working on something that's fundamentally misunderstood, otherwise it wouldn't be innovation.

你觉得这是你与生俱来的特质吗？那种自信、承受痛苦的能力，还有一点“我要证明给他们看”的心态？

Do you think that that's like a intrinsic trait to you? The kind of self-belief, pain tolerance, and then kind of like a little bit of like I'll show them?

我不认为这是我独有的。我觉得每个创业者都有这种特质。能够承受创业的挑战、能够发明创造，需要惊人的韧性。实际上，你刚才描述的正是我能想到的几乎所有有意义的成功故事中的共同主线。

I don't think that's unique to me. I think that is in every single entrepreneur. To be able to endure the challenges of building a business, to be able to invent something takes incredible resilience. And I think actually what you just described is the common thread through almost any meaningful success story I can think of.

是啊，我想起 Sherri 做创作者很久了，她几乎是这个类型的先驱，分享“这就是我工作的样子”、“产品经理的日常”、“作为女性在科技行业工作是什么体验”。我记得一开始人们觉得这很尴尬，都在说“这是什么？”，还说“别在办公室拍视频”。

Yeah, yeah, and I think a lot of I mean even thinking back to Sherri's been a creator for a long time, and she was the pretty much the first of her genre where she was doing like oh this is what I'm doing at work, this is what it's like as a product manager, this is what it's like to work in tech as a woman. And like I remember at the beginning people were kind of like this is cringe. People are like what is this? But then don't film in the office.

不过我在社交媒体行为规范出现之前很久就这么做了。

I mean I did that way before there were any like really social media conduct stuff though.

是啊，规则都是围绕她制定的。

Yeah, they made the rules around her.

倒不是特指我，而是因为我开创的这个类型，他们才说“好吧，现在我们需要讨论工作中的社交媒体了”。但我觉得在 2020/2021 年左右我做这件事时，它是一种新的分享形式，在娱乐的同时教育人们，展示在大科技公司做产品经理是什么样子。

Well, not me specifically, but because of the genre I created where they're like okay, now we need to talk about social media at work. But I think like when I did it in like 2020/2021 it was kind of like a new form of sharing with people and also educating while making it entertaining of like this is what it's like to be a product manager at a big tech company.

是啊，她是这个类型的先驱。比如跳个舞然后说“D A U”，我就想“DAU 是什么？”真的。我们觉得好笑，但人们会说“哦，原来那是这个意思”。

Yeah, she was the first of her genre. Like do a dance and be like D A U. I'm like what does D A U stand? Seriously. And I think we laugh at it, but it like people were like oh I didn't know that's what that meant.

对，没错。所以这真的很酷。

Yeah, exactly. So it's really cool.

这让我想起了那种坚持和多年如一日把事情做成的能力。但更难的是，这还涉及制作内容和在公共场合跳舞。

So it just reminded me of it, like the kind of persistence and ability to like see something through over many, many years. But even harder cuz it involves making content and doing dances in public.

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整个对话都在讨论 Snap 的未来，包括眼镜，以及下一代用户如何使用你们的产品。如果你能用一句话总结 Snap 未来五年的方向，你会怎么说？

This entire conversation has been about, I think, the future of Snap with specs and also the future of where we see, I think, the next generation and how people are using your product. If you can summarize what Snap will be doing in like one sentence for the next five years, how do you think about it?

Snap 将让计算更人性化。

Snap will be making computing more human.

好，他早就准备好了。行，我们来个快速问答。

All right. He had that one ready. Okay, cool. Let's do a rapid-fire.

我们来玩一个有趣的快速问答游戏。这是关于一些我们想问你的流行语。有点像二选一，但也会有不同变化。好，第一个问题：哪个更重要？智商、情商，还是气场？

So, we have a fun game of rapid-fire questions. This is like some of the lingo that we wanted to ask you about. So, it's kind of like this or that, but also we'll have different variations of that. Okay. So, first question. What's more important? IQ, EQ, or aura?

肯定是情商。

EQ for sure.

情商。你可以说说为什么，详细解释一下。

EQ. You can say why. Elaborate.

为什么？我认为当今世界最大的变化之一是人工智能正以极其激进的方式被民主化。世界上每个人都将获得远超平均水平的惊人智能，对吧？所以我反复看到的是，那些能够建立牢固关系、能够与他人联系协作、能够反思自己并了解自身成长和改进机会的人，这些能力在现代职场中就是巨大的超能力。要想在今天的世界做任何有趣的事，你必须与他人合作，对吧？要解决的技术问题太复杂了，独自一人很难做到。所以实际上，情商和与他人合作的能力几乎是做困难而有趣的事情时最重要的差异化因素。

Why? Well, I think one of the biggest shifts right in the world today is with AI intelligence is being democratized in a pretty radical way. Everyone in the world is going to have access to incredible levels of intelligence far higher than average intelligence, right? And so I think what's most important what I see over and over and over again is that people who are able to build strong relationships, who are able to connect and collaborate and work with others, who are able to reflect on themselves and understand their own opportunities for growth and improvement. Those are the sorts of things that are just massive superpowers in the modern workplace. And in order to do anything interesting in the world today, you have to do it with other people, right? The technical problems to solve out there are so complex. It's very hard to sit on your own and do that. And so that actually means that EQ and the ability to work with other people is almost like the most important differentiator in terms of being able to do hard and interesting things.

那气场呢？那重要吗？有这回事吗？我不知道。这是现在孩子们在谈论的——刷气场、气场点数。

And what about having aura? Does that matter? Is that a thing? I don't know. It's what the kids are talking about these days. Aura farming, aura points.

我是说，天哪，如果这么简单就好了，对吧？只要你有气场。我想有些人确实有。有些人有。你知道，愿上帝保佑他们。那很好。

I mean, I gosh, it would be nice if it was that easy, right? If you just had aura. I mean, some people do, I guess. Some people do. I, you know, God bless them. That's great.

还想问你，既然我们在做播客，你现在也在播客里，你最近在听什么播客？

And also want to ask you, since we have a podcast, you're on the podcast now, what is a podcast that you've been listening to recently?

我觉得《Founders》是个很棒的播客。无论是历史偶像还是现代领袖，Senna 通过对创始人的深入分析所建立的联系，我觉得非常非常有趣。

I think Founders is such a great podcast. I think, you know, whether it's like the historical icons or some of the modern-day leaders that to me the connections that Senna was able to make across sort of his deep analysis of founders is really really interesting.

然后一个跟进问题：如果你要做一个播客，你最想邀请的梦想嘉宾是谁？我想这就像“如果你可以邀请一位晚餐客人，无论生死”的新版本。如果你要做播客的话。

And then a follow-up question. If you were to have a podcast, who would be your dream guest that you'd want to talk to? I guess this is the new version of like if you were to have a dinner guest, dead or alive. If you were to have a podcast.

这个问题。其实我并没有做播客，但私下在做一个项目，就是问人们关于美国未来 100 年的看法。哇。让人们长期思考美国未来 100 年的成功以及最重要的投入，并与各个领域的顶尖专家交谈，比如教育、医疗等等。所以对我来说，梦想嘉宾是能够谈论我们国家长期成功的人。

Question. So, I basically have like not a podcast, sort of been like privately working on a project to just ask people about the next 100 years in America. Wow. And to ask people to think long-term about what American success over the next 100 years and the most important inputs to that and just talking to leading experts across like every domain. So, like education or healthcare or whatever it is. So, I think for me it would be another guest who could speak to long-term success in our country.

是啊。你目前学到了什么？

Yeah. What have you learned so far?

天哪，我学到了太多东西，简直不可思议。

Oh my gosh, I've learned so many things. It's insane.

全都告诉我们吧。

Tell us everything.

嗯，我正试着把它整合起来，现在有了 AI，我更确信自己能把这些对话整合成有意义的东西。但对我来说，真正重要的是把未来 100 年扎根于我认为推动了这个国家建立的那些价值观：自由、平等、正义、生命、自由和追求幸福。然后把这些价值观应用到社会的不同领域。在教育领域，自由、平等和正义在实践中到底是什么样？那到底意味着什么？我们今天拥有的教育体系是 100 年前为美国的工业时代创建的。从上课铃到每个人学习做这些个性化的事情，再到获得 A、B、C 等级——所有这些都围绕着一个在今天美国并不常见的职业道路。如果我们必须根据我们的价值观重新思考教育体系，同时着眼于年轻人未来会做什么，我认为我们会为未来 100 年完全重新设计教育。这里面有太多东西了。这完全是另一个播客的话题。

Well, I'm trying to synthesize it, and now with AI I'm more convinced I'll be able to synthesize all these conversations into something that actually makes sense. But to me, what's so important is actually to root the next 100 years in the values that I think have animated the founding of the country: freedom, equality, justice, life, liberty, pursuit of happiness. And take those and overlay them on different parts of our society. In education, what does freedom, equality, and justice actually look like in practice? What does that actually mean? The education system we have today was created 100 years ago for the industrial era in America. Everything from the school bell to everyone learning how to do individualized things and getting A, B, C grades—all of those things were really oriented around a career path that's not common in America today. If we had to rethink our education system aligned with our values but with an eye to what young people will be doing in the future, I think we would design education completely differently for the next 100 years. There's so much in there. This is a whole other podcast, really.

这真的很有趣，还是像纪录片？你正在创作的形式是什么样的？

Is this really interesting or a documentary? Like, what is the format that you're creating?

说实话，我正在琢磨把它变成什么形式。它最初只是一段学习之旅，开始把碎片拼凑起来。我主要的担忧是，作为一个社会，我们没有花任何时间来谈论我们的长期成功。事实上，如果你看看我们政府做决策的所有方式，几乎都是短视的。例如，国会批准的预算——我们的预算窗口是 10 年。真正有趣的是，任何有意义的长期投资，最明显的是对年轻人的投资，在 10 年内看起来都是负面的。如果你今天投资于年轻人的医疗保健、学前教育、食物、为无家可归的年轻人提供住所，30 年后这些投资的回报会非常丰厚。我们的政府没有比投资年轻人更有利可图的投资了。但当你在 10 年的时间跨度内看同样的投资时，它们看起来很糟糕——非常负面。你花了这么多钱来教育年轻人、养活他们或为他们提供医疗保健，但还没有看到这些投资在以后的收入中体现出来。所以我们一直在做这些糟糕的决定，把大量资金分配给美国的老年人，这不一定错。问题是我们没有把大量资源分配给年轻人。结果就是我们每天都在透支未来。真正吸引我的是，我意识到我没有听到领导人谈论未来 100 年，我们需要做哪些不同的事情来让美国在更长的时间跨度内取得成功。不幸的是，政府是最适合进行长期投资的。这正是整件事如此令人惊讶和沮丧的地方。还有谁比政府更适合投资呢？政府基本上是我们国家的合法垄断者。他们非常适合进行长期投资，但没有任何激励机制是围绕这一点建立的。

I'm trying to figure out what to turn it into, to be honest. It really just started out as a journey to learn and to begin to put the pieces together. My general concern is that as a society, we are not spending any time talking about our long-term success. In fact, if you look at all the ways our government makes decisions, almost all of them are inherently short-term. For example, the budget that Congress approves—our budget window is a 10-year budget window. What's really interesting is that any meaningful long-term investment, and the most obvious one is investments in young people, looks negative in 10 years. If you make an investment today in healthcare for young people, preschool for young people, food for young people, putting a roof over young people's head if they don't have one, over 30 years the returns on those investments are so profitable. There's no more profitable investment that our government could make than in young people. But when you look at those same investments over a 10-year time horizon, they look terrible—super negative. You're spending all this money to educate young people or to feed them or to provide them healthcare, and you're not yet seeing it show up in earnings later on. So we're just constantly making these terrible decisions where we distribute a huge amount of money to older folks in America, which is not necessarily the wrong thing to do. The problem is that we're just not distributing a lot of resources to young people. That means as a result, we're short-changing our future every single day. What really drew me to this was the realization that I'm just not hearing leaders talk about the next 100 years, what we need to do differently to set America up for success over a longer time horizon. Unfortunately, the government is best positioned to invest long-term. That's what's so surprising and frustrating about the whole thing. Who better to invest than the government, which is basically a legal monopoly in our country? They're so well positioned to invest long-term, but none of the incentives are set up around that.

对，因为行政级别的最高任期是 8 年。那么你如何调和这一点与一个长达数十年的目标呢？

Right, because the longest tenure you can have at the executive level is 8 years. So how do you reconcile that with having a multi-decade long goal?

嗯，我认为部分原因在于重新构建对话和衡量标准。我确实认为，如果国会有工具来审视他们 30 年的预算，例如，它会非常清楚地显示对年轻人的投资是非常有利可图的。所以部分原因就是开始转变这种说法，创造这样做的工具，然后问人们：‘好吧，我看到你的预算在 5 年或 10 年内的表现，但这在 30 年内实际上意味着什么？我们是否因为只是在适当的时间跨度内没有看到这一点而错过了机会？’

Well, I think part of it is reframing the conversation and the measurement. I do think if Congress had the tools to look at their budget over 30 years, for example, it would show very clearly that investments in young people are very profitable. So part of it is just starting to shift that narrative and to create the tools to do that and to ask people, 'Yeah, okay, I see how your budget performs over 5 years or 10 years, but what does this mean actually over 30 years? And are there opportunities we're missing out on because we're just not looking at this over the appropriate time horizon.'

除了教育，你还想把这个——平等、正义和自由——应用到哪个领域或行业？你认为还有什么也非常重要？

What's another sector or industry that you would want to apply—what is it? Equality, justice, and freedom to—outside of education? What do you think is also really high importance?

我认为你可以把这个框架应用到今天美国的几乎任何领域，但有一个领域非常适合这种讨论，尽管在我的学习和研究中，它似乎是最难解决的问题，那就是医疗保健。如果你看看加州这里的州预算，医疗保健正在吞噬州预算。在美国也是如此。医疗成本已经完全爆炸了。部分原因是好事。从整体上看，我们提供真正先进的护理和创造所有这些新技术的能力，成本增长出现在那里并不让我惊讶，因为能够延长人们的生命或让人们以更健康、更高效的方式生活是很重要的。但我认为，除非我们真的能在那里创新，否则随着我们将越来越多的资源重新分配给医疗保健，它将对我们的未来造成巨大的拖累。这很大程度上又回到了——我认为这在今天很常见——很多时候政府关注的是他们把钱花在哪里。我不认为他们同样关注等式的成本方面。实际上，美国的历史表明，我们在生产力增长、通过创新实际降低成本、让更多人更容易获得产品方面做得非常出色。这确实是美国过去 250 年成功的巨大奇迹之一：我们把很多以前非常昂贵、只有少数人才能获得的东西变得非常便宜、非常普及。结果，美国每个人的生活质量都提高了，世界各地也是如此。所以我认为我们需要把这种创新者的心态应用到很多大问题上。医疗保健似乎是一个绝对棘手但不会消失的重大问题，需要我们努力解决。

I think you could apply that frame to almost any part of America today, but one that would be right for that conversation, although in my learnings and research it seems like absolutely the hardest problem to tackle, is healthcare. If you look at the state budget here in California, healthcare is eating the state budget. And that's true in America as well. Healthcare costs have just absolutely exploded. Part of that's a good thing. If you look overall, our ability to provide really advanced care and create all this new technology, it doesn't surprise me that that's where some of the cost growth has been because it's important to be able to extend people's lives or have people live in healthier, more productive ways. But I think unless we're really able to innovate there, it's going to create a huge drag on our future as we reallocate more and more resources to healthcare. A lot of this ties back to—and I think this is very common today—a lot of times government is focused on where they're spending money. I don't think they're as focused on the cost side of that equation. Actually, the history of America would say that we've done an amazing job at productivity growth, at innovating to actually drive costs down and to make things more accessible to more people. That has really been one of the huge miracles of America's success over the last 250 years: we've made a lot of stuff that previously was really expensive and only accessible to a very small number of people really cheap and really widely available. As a result, everyone's quality of life in America has improved, but also around the world. So I think we need to apply that sort of innovator's mentality to a lot of these big problems. And healthcare seems like one that is absolutely intractable but is not going away as a huge issue for us to work on.

埃文，要竞选参议员吗？

Evan, for senator?

不，不，谢谢。

No, no, thank you.

我有四个孩子和一份全职工作。不过，我还是很感激。谢谢。谢谢。还有一部即将推出的纪录片系列？

I've got four kids and a day job. So, I appreciate it though. Thank you. Thank you. And an upcoming documentary series?

是的，我想把它做出来。我想把它发表出来。我知道，我现在没时间做这个。但这是其中一件事。我在想也许我应该把这个当作我的……

Yeah, I want to see it out. I want to see it published. I know, I got to — I don't have time to work on this right now. But that is one of the things. I was thinking maybe I should take this on as my like...

支线任务？

Side quest?

对，或者就试着今年夏天抽出一周时间，把它搞定。我得集中精力把它完成。

Yeah, or just try to take a week this summer and like knock it out. I got to just like focus and get it done.

是已经录好了还是……

Is it recorded or is it...

有，有大量的笔记。所以我得把它们整合成真正有意义的东西。

There's yeah, there's copious notes. So, I got to kind of synthesize it into something that actually makes sense.

嗯，我期待很快能看到。对，发给我们吧。

Well, I look forward to seeing it soon. Yeah, send it this way.

你可以，你可以……

You can yeah, you can...

你把草稿发给我们。你发反馈。对，太好了。

You send us the draft. You send feedback. Yeah, great.

太棒了。Evan，非常感谢你抽出时间在 Tiger Sisters 播客上和我们聊天。

Awesome. Evan, thank you so much for taking the time and chatting with us on Tiger Sisters podcast.

非常感谢邀请我。我玩得很开心。

Thanks so much for having me. I've had a blast.

耶！通常我们会请嘉宾提供他们的社交媒体账号。大家应该在 Snap 上加你吗？

Yay! Usually we ask our guests to give their handles on social media. Should people add you on Snap?

我在 Snapchat 上就是 Evan，很容易找到。

I'm just Evan on Snapchat, so easy to find.

原版 Evan。太棒了。非常感谢。

The original Evan. Awesome. Thank you so much.