Snap CEO 埃文·斯皮格尔：为何 AR 眼镜代表未来

等 60 秒才能通过短信发一张照片，这种痛苦真的是沟通的障碍。今天，去任何演唱会，你都能看到屏幕顶部那个闪烁的小幽灵。这对我来说永远不会过时。

The pain of waiting 60 seconds to send a photo via text message was really an obstacle to communication. Today, go to any concert and you can see that little ghost blinking at the top of the screen. And that never gets old to me.

每月有近 10 亿人打开 Snapchat，每天有近 5 亿人使用。

Nearly a billion people open Snapchat every month, almost half a billion use it every single day.

最初像是个噱头的东西，很快就变成了一种通讯服务。

What initially started as like kind of a gimmick very quickly became a messaging service.

到现在，Stories 已经是社交媒体上被模仿最多的产品创意之一。

Stories at this point has got to be one of the most emulated product ideas across social media.

作为一名设计师，当你看到自己的一个想法被完全复制时，会非常满足，因为这意味着你设计得如此完美，以至于所有看到它的超级聪明的人都想不出如何迭代和改进它。

When you see one of your ideas copied exactly as a designer, it's very gratifying because it means that you designed it so perfectly that all these super smart people who saw it couldn't figure out how to iterate on it and make it better.

你研发这些 AR 眼镜已经大约十年了。是什么让你确信这个赌注值得下？

You have been working on these AR glasses for around a decade. What convinced you that this bet was one worth taking?

我们平均每天在屏幕上花费七八个小时。我认为在当下，把计算从屏幕中解放出来、带入现实世界是至关重要的，因为

We're spending seven or eight hours a day on screens on average. Bringing computing off of a screen and into the world I think is essential at this moment in time because

我们能聊聊这一切的梗吗？

Can we talk about the meme of it all?

当然。好啊。哪一个？

Of course. Yeah. Which one?

我读到你的家人向一个叫 Undo Medical Debt 的组织捐了一大笔钱。

I read that your family made a sizable donation to an organization called Undo Medical Debt.

我们发现了这个了不起的组织，有机会减轻医疗债务，这给家庭带来了巨大压力。

We found this amazing organization and opportunity to relieve medical debt, which puts so much pressure on families.

我是 Sammy Cohen，这里是 Social Currency，一档剖析塑造商业、文化及其交叉领域故事的播客。我非常兴奋地介绍今天的嘉宾，Evan Spiegel。Evan 是 Snap 的联合创始人兼 CEO。如果你仍然认为 Snapchat 是你孩子用的应用，或者你 20 多岁时用过的，那么这一期会改变你的看法，因为每月有近 10 亿人打开这个应用。而 Evan 在 21 岁创立的公司，现在正把未来十年押注在一种你戴在脸上的新技术上。所以，在这次对话中，Evan 和我聊了 Snap 的演变，他如何应对成为社交媒体上被复制最多的产品，以及 specs，这款研发了十多年的 2,195 美元 AR 眼镜。他告诉我他实际上想象谁会买它们，为什么他认为 Snap 会赢得一个其他大型科技公司已经在玩的类别，以及当它实现时智能手机将发生什么。在最后，Evan 坦诚地谈了社交媒体年龄限制，作为父亲他的立场，他的家人为减轻医疗债务所做的数百万美元捐款，以及他捐赠事业之间的贯穿线。Snapchat 是一家很多人有强烈看法的公司，尤其是父母。我不认为这次对话会解决这个问题，但我认为它会引发一些非常有趣的对话。让我知道你的想法。这是 Evan Spiegel 的 Social Currency。

I'm Sammy Cohen and this is Social Currency, a podcast that unpacks the stories that are shaping business, culture, and the intersection of the two. I am so excited to introduce today's guest, Evan Spiegel. Evan is the co-founder and CEO of Snap. And if you still think of Snapchat as the app your kid uses or maybe you used in your 20s, this one's going to reset that for you because nearly a billion people open the app every month. And the company that Evan started at 21 is now betting its next decade on putting a new technology that you wear on your face in the forefront. So, in this conversation, Evan and I talk about the evolution of Snap, how he grapples with being the most copied product in social media, and specs, the 2,195 AR glasses more than a decade in the making. He tells me who he's actually picturing buying them, why he thinks Snap wins a category that the other big tech players are already playing in, and what happens to the smartphone when it does. And towards the end, Evan gets candid about age gating social media, and where he lands as a dad, the multi-million dollar donation his family made to ease medical debt, and the throughine connecting the causes he gives to. Snapchat is a company that a lot of people have strong feelings about, especially parents. And I don't think this conversation will settle that either way, but I do think it'll spark some very interesting conversations. Let me know what you make of it. This is Evans Spiegel social currency.

本期节目由 Mercury 赞助，这是一家为创始人打造的银行，让他们能更快行动，现在有了 spend，这个费用管理系统集成了卡片、智能预算和员工报销，全部在一个地方。大多数创始人一开始都一样，一张卡在需要的人之间共享。去年我搭建播客工作室时，我的团队用我的卡买了相机，然后我们退回了一台相机，接着不得不翻遍邮件寻找替换退回相机的那台最终相机。那段时间没有用来制作节目。相反，我们在邮件里翻找购买凭证。Mercury Spends 解决了这个问题。你的团队发一张照片或让 Gmail 扫描它，工作就完成了。收据逾期的卡片会自动锁定，这样没人需要催任何人。你设置一次的预算会自动按人、按团队、按卡保持。费用管理与你的商业银行账户在同一个地方，这本来就该一直如此。Mercury 是一家金融科技公司，不是 FDIC 保险银行。银行服务通过 Choice Financial Group 和 Column NA 提供，均为 FDIC 成员。IO 卡由 Patriot Bank NA 发行，FDIC 成员，根据 Mastercard International Incorporated 的许可。

This episode is brought to you by Mercury, banking built so founders can move faster now with spend, the expense management system with cards, intelligent budgets, and employee reimbursements all in one place. Most founders start out the same way, one card shared among whoever needs it. When I was setting up the podcast studio last year, my team bought the cameras on my card and then we ended up returning one camera and then had to comb through emails looking for that final camera that replaced the one that we returned. That was time that was not spent building the show. Instead, we were digging through emails for proof of a purchase. Mercury Spends that. Your team texts a photo or lets Gmail scan it and the work is done. Cards with overdue receipts lock automatically so nobody is chasing anybody. Budgets you set once hold on their own per person per team per card. Expense management living in the same place as your business banking which is where it should have been the whole time. Mercury is a fintech company not an FDIC insured bank. Banking services provided through Choice Financial Group and Column NA members FDIC. The IO card is issued by Patriot Bank NA member FDIC pursuant to a license from Mastercard International Incorporated.

Evan Spiegel，欢迎来到 Social Currency。

Evan Spiegel, welcome to Social Currency.

非常感谢。也很高兴来到洛杉矶。我们非常开心。

Thank you so much. Great to be here in Los Angeles too. We're so happy.

离你办公室大概 10 分钟车程。

Like a 10minute drive from your office.

我想可能七分钟。所以你让它变得很容易。谢谢。

I think maybe seven. So you made it easy. Thank you.

所以你一直在我很想对话的 CEO 名单上，已经很久了。我终于联系上了。我找到你的方式是通过——我当时在戛纳，参加一个 Snap 的午餐会。那是个很棒的活动，我坐在 Emma 旁边，她负责你很多活动，我 basically 给了她一个硬推销，我最后一句是，离 Evan 办公室不到 10 分钟，所以他必须来。

So you've been on my list of CEOs that I've wanted to talk to for a very long time. So I actually was connected finally. I I found my way to you through I was in Can and I was at a snap lunchon. And it was this gorgeous event and I was sitting next to Emma who does a lot of your events and I basically gave her the hard pitch and my final line was and it's less than 10 minutes away from where Evan sits in his office so he's got to make it.

所以她说，好吧，也许我真的会问他。

So she was like okay maybe I'll actually ask him.

她说，这就是决定性的一击，我加入。

She's like that's the clincher I'm in.

嗯，这就是那个著名的女性午餐会，我在戛纳实际上从未参加过。所以你得跟我好好讲讲。

Well this is the famous women's lunch that I've never attended actually in can. So you'll have to tell me all about it.

是的，那是个标志性的活动，但你不是女性，所以你不会得到细节。但在我们进入正题之前，我想摆出一些数字，因为每个在看或听的人都知道 Evan Spiegel。他们听说过 Snapchat。但只是摆出一些数字，每月有近 10 亿人打开 Snapchat。每天有近 5 亿人使用。而且它的收入同比增长了两位数。今年九月，这个应用就 15 岁了。所以我们不再谈论一家初创公司。我们谈论的是这个星球上活着的很大一部分人都在使用的东西。所以只是为了真正奠定我们今天要覆盖的内容。但正如我们在开始拍摄前谈到的，我对 Snap 路线图上现在很多即将推出的东西非常兴奋。有些很快就会推出，我们会谈到。但在我们进入那之前，Snapchat 的故事到现在已经被讲过几千遍了。但你创立 Snap 时，它最初推出时叫 Peekaboo。你 famously 21 岁，斯坦福辍学生。我们知道那个故事。但你能和我们分享一些人们可能会对早期日子感到惊讶的事情吗，因为我们现在要回到 15 年前。

Yeah, it was it was iconic, but you're not a woman, so you you won't get the details. But before we get into it, I want to put some numbers on the table because everyone who is watching this or listening to it has heard of Evan Spiegel. They've heard of Snapchat. But just to put some numbers out there, nearly a billion people open Snapchat every month. Almost half a billion use it every single day. And it's grown revenue double digits year-over-year. This September, the app turns 15. So we're not talking about a startup anymore. We are talking about something that is used by a very high percentage of people who are alive on this planet. So just to to really stake the ground in in what we're going to be covering today. But as we were talking about right before we started filming, I'm super excited about lots of stuff that is on the road map right now for Snap. Something that's going to be launching very soon, which we'll get into. But before we get into that, the story of Snapchat has been told now thousands of times at this point. But when you started Snap, it was called Peekaboo when it first launched. You were famously 21, the Stanford dropout. We know we know that story. But can you share anything with us about what people may be surprised to hear about the early days cuz we're we're going back now 15 years.

我想也许关于 Snapchat 和 Peekaboo 早期最大的惊喜是，虽然最初的想法是关于消失的照片，但关键的洞察是，你知道，我们是在用它和朋友们聊天。所以最初像是个叫 Peekaboo 的噱头，能够发送一张消失的照片。当然，你知道，你总是可以截屏保存照片，它很快就变成了一种通讯服务。

I think maybe the the biggest surprise about the early days of Snapchat and and Peekaboo was that while the initial idea was around disappearing photos, the key insight was that, you know, we were using it with our friends to talk. And so what initially started as like kind of a gimmick called Peekaboo to be able to send a photo that disappears. And of course, you know, you can always take a screenshot and save the photo very quickly became a messaging service.

而这正是 Snapchat 背后的关键洞察。这就是为什么我们把它改名为 Snapchat。

And that's really the key insight behind Snapchat. It's why we renamed it Snapchat.

你知道，图片消息本质上增加了字幕和绘画功能，那正是服务开始增长的时候。所以我认为 Snapchat 的核心洞察是：视觉交流要快得多，有趣得多，也更具情感表现力。你可以直接看到朋友当下的感受和他们在做什么，而不需要他们在 iPhone 触摸屏上写四段话。所以我认为这就是关键洞察，也是服务能持续的原因。15 年后的今天，很多人依然通过 Snap 与朋友和家人保持亲密，因为他们能看到彼此的感受和动态。

You know, picture messaging essentially added captions and drawing, and that's really when the service started to grow. And so I think the insight around Snapchat is really that visual communication is way faster. It's way more fun. It's way more emotionally expressive. You can actually see how your friend feels, right, and what they're doing in the moment without them having to write four paragraphs on an iPhone touchscreen. So I think that's really the key insight and why the service endures. You know, now 15 years later, so many people are staying close with their friends and family because they're able to see how they feel and what they're up to through a snap.

所以这个关键洞察是：这是沟通，这是消息传递。你能带我们回到你产生这个领悟的时候吗？或者甚至是你外出生活时，看到某个陌生人正在使用 Snap，而不是直接联系你。你当时是什么反应？你做了什么？

And so that key insight of this is communication, this is messaging, can you take us back to when you kind of had that realization or maybe even you were out living your life and you saw someone in the wild who wasn't directly connecting to you using Snap. What was your reaction and what did you do?

嗯，你知道，我最早的记忆之一，也是我们获得的关键洞察之一，就是当时发送图片非常慢。我记得我们实际上去了——我想每年在曼哈顿海滩都有沙滩排球锦标赛。很多人去曼哈顿海滩，这严重影响了蜂窝网络连接。所以试图发送照片基本上是不可能的。我们有过那种经历，非常沮丧。但使用 Snapchat，我们发明了一种比短信快得多的发送照片的新方式。所以 Snapchat 几乎是从曼哈顿海滩排球赛现场唯一能用的沟通方式，因为当时发送图片非常快速和轻量。这对我们来说是一个巨大的突破，因为我们意识到，通过短信发送照片等待 60 秒的痛苦确实是沟通的障碍。而用 Snapchat 你可以快得多。但我想今天我一直喜欢的是去音乐会。去任何音乐会，你都能看到屏幕顶部那个小幽灵在闪烁，这对我来说永远不会过时。

Well, you know, one of the earliest memories I have and one of the key insights we had was just how slow it was to send pictures at the time. So I remember we actually went—I think every year there's like a beach volleyball tournament in Manhattan Beach. A lot of people go to Manhattan Beach and that really impacts the cellular connectivity. So trying to send a photo was basically impossible. And we had that experience and we were so frustrated. But using Snapchat, we had invented a new way to send photos way faster than text message. And so Snapchat was like the only way you could communicate from the Manhattan Beach volleyball match because it was so quick and so lightweight to send an image in the moment. That was a big unlock for us because we realized that just the pain of waiting 60 seconds to send a photo via text message was really an obstacle to communication. And with Snapchat you could do that so much faster. But I think today what I always love is going to a concert. Go to any concert and you can see that little ghost blinking at the top of the screen and it never gets old to me.

是的。是的。我们还会谈到的一点是，我认为 Snap 迄今为止所做的一切基本上都存在于手机中，我们现在正转向一些新设备和新方式，你将能在现实世界中亲眼看到 Snap，而以前，你知道，它是在另一个设备上，被困在手机屏幕里。

Yeah. Yeah. One thing that we'll talk about too is I think everything that Snap has done thus far basically living in the phone, we're now moving to some new devices and new ways where you're going to physically see Snap in the world, whereas before, you know, it's in this other device stuck on the phone screen.

是的。我知道你已经谈过很多次了，但我还是想提出来，因为我认为这确实是随着时间演变的事情，但你一直直言不讳地指出某些公司可能抄袭了 Snapchat 或盗用了 Snapchat 明显率先推出的功能。嗯，Stories 在这一点上肯定是过去 15 年社交媒体中最被模仿的产品创意之一，如果我们想这么称呼的话。当你看到某些东西，甚至不一定是 Stories。我的意思是，现在 Snapchat 也基本上是推出这些镜头或滤镜的公司。你怎么看待 Snap 作为创新者，然后其他公司进入这个领域说：“哦，这太好了。我们想把它带到我们的平台上。”

Yeah. And I know you've talked about this quite a bit, but I did want to bring this up just because I think that this is certainly been something that we've seen kind of evolve over time, but you've been very vocal about how certain companies have maybe copied Snapchat or ripped off features that Snapchat very clearly rolled out first. Um, stories at this point has got to be one of the most emulated, if we want to call it that, product ideas across social media over the last 15 years. When you see something, and it doesn't even have to be stories. I mean, now you Snapchat also was basically the company to come up with these lenses or filters. How do you think about that of just Snap being this innovator and then other companies kind of coming into the space and saying, "Oh, that's so good. We want to take it over to our platforms."

我对这个话题有几种想法。首先，你知道，我的背景其实是设计，那是我热爱的事情。作为一名设计师，当你看到自己的想法被完全复制时，会感到非常满足，因为这意味着你设计得如此完美，以至于所有看到它的超级聪明的人都无法想出如何改进它。就像一些伊姆斯椅子，对吧？他们仍然在制造完全一样的仿制品，因为你无法超越它。它是完美的。所以对我来说，当看到有人完全复制功能时，我觉得是一种巨大的赞美。我认为凯文在 Instagram 上的做法非常明智。他直接出来说：“是的，是 Stories。我们在做完全一样的事情，因为它很棒，我们认为我们的社区会喜欢它。”所以作为设计师，我觉得这非常令人满足。有时令人沮丧的是，试图向投资者解释，如果这些大公司可以拿走我们所有的想法或我们创造的一切，我们如何能继续成功并与他们竞争。我认为最重要的是，我们能够持续创新，不断提出新想法，这才是推动我们公司长期增长的动力。现在，当我们谈论像 Spectacles 这样的东西，基本上就是内置在眼镜中的电脑，我们决定将大量创新和投资集中在极难复制的领域。这就是我真正喜欢硬件以及硬件和软件整合的原因之一，因为它非常非常难以复制。所以当我们进行这些长期投资，押注那些还不明显的事情时，我们投资的是一个别人难以跟随的领域。这是我们在公司成立 15 年后现在能够做的事情，因为我们有资源进行这样的投资。

I'm of several minds, I guess, on the topic. I think the first one, you know, my background is really in design, and that's what I love to do. And when you see one of your ideas copied exactly as a designer, it's very gratifying because it means that you designed it so perfectly that all these super smart people who saw it couldn't figure out how to iterate on it and make it better. They, you know, it's like some of these Eames chairs, right? They're still making knockoffs the exact same because you just can't beat it. It's perfect. And so for me, I think it's just a huge compliment when we see someone copy the feature exactly. And I think that that's actually what was so wise about what Kevin did with Instagram. He just came out and said, "Yep, it's stories. We're doing the exact same thing cuz it's great and we think our community will love it." And so I think as a designer, like that's very fulfilling. I think where it can get frustrating sometimes is trying to explain to investors how we can continue to be successful and compete with these huge companies if they can just take all of our ideas or all of what we create. And I think the most important thing is that we're able to actually continually innovate and continually come up with new ideas and that's really what's driven the growth of our company over the long term. And now, as we talk about things like specs, basically computer built into a pair of glasses, we've decided to really focus a lot of our innovation and investment in areas that are incredibly difficult to copy. And that's one of the things I really like about hardware and the integration of hardware and software is that it's very, very difficult to copy. And so as we're making these long-term investments, as we're making bets on things that don't seem obvious yet, we're investing in a space that's going to be hard for folks to follow. And that's something that we're now able to do 15 years into the life of the company where we have the resources to invest that way.

这显然是你非常热衷的事情。我能看到你谈论它时眼睛发亮的样子。设计元素显然与你产生共鸣。但此时，Snap 雇佣了数千人，对吧？你在领导这家公司，你有投资者或股东需要汇报。当你在建立这样规模的公司时，是否有某些领域是 Evan Spiegel 基本上每周都会签字的，是你真正深入参与的？显然，你不可能触及所有事情，但对你来说，哪些领域至今你仍然觉得“我需要参与其中”？

And this is clearly something you're so passionate about. And I could see the way that you lit up as you were talking about that. And the design element clearly is something that resonates with you. But at this point, Snap employs thousands of people, right? You are leading this company, you have investors or you have your shareholders to report out to. When you're building a company of your size, are there certain lanes that Evan Spiegel signs off on on basically a weekly basis, stuff that you are really deep in the weeds on? Obviously, you can't touch everything, but what are those areas for you that to this day you're like, I need to be involved in that?

我非常关心我们产品的设计。所以，你知道，每周我都会花几个小时在设计会议上，这真的不是在想法签核阶段，而是在想法的生成阶段，我们还在玩弄一些全新的东西，尚未完全成形。那才是我喜欢提供意见并推动团队的地方。我们有一个非常非常有才华的设计团队。规模不大，大概九到十个人，对吧？但每周几个小时，大家围坐在桌旁，辩论想法，尝试新事物。这就是我喜欢在公司中提供的投入。另一件我非常关心的事情是文化。

I really care a lot about the design of our products. So, you know, every week I'm spending hours in design meetings, which is really not at the signoff phase of an idea, but actually at the generative phase of the idea where we're still playing with something that's totally new before it's fully formed yet. That's really where I like to have input and push the team. And we've got a really, really talented design team. It's not very big. It's like nine or 10 people, right? But all around a table, you know, for hours every week, we're debating ideas and trying new things. And so that's really the input that I like to have in our company. And the other thing I really care deeply about is the culture.

嗯，所以，你知道，基本上从我记事起，我们就一直秉持着同样的价值观：善良、聪明、有创造力。但这些价值观必须体现在公司实际运作的方式中，体现在我们奖励员工的方式中，嗯，体现在我们在 Snap 培养领导者的方式中。所以，按照我们的价值观来培养员工，你知道，是我非常关心的事情。

Um, so, you know, we've had these same values basically since since I can remember, kind, smart, and creative. But those values have to be expressed in the way that the company actually works, in the way that we reward people, uh, in the way that we train our leaders at Snap. And so developing our people, you know, in line with our values is something that I really care a lot about.

我想是时候谈谈这些眼镜的规格了。你已经在这些 AR 眼镜上工作了大约十年。我想谈谈这个赌注，对吧？因为 Snap 有这种模式，在这些空间、这些行为上押注，对吧？归根结底，这关乎沟通、人类行为，在世界其他地方赶上之前，在其他平台赶上之前，就像我们刚才谈到的。那么，是什么让你相信这个赌注值得一押？

I think it's time we move on to the specs of them all. So you have been working on these AR glasses for around a decade. I want to talk about this bet, right? Because Snap has this has this pattern of making these bets on spaces on behaviors, right? It's ultimately comes down to communication, human behaviors before kind of the rest of the world has caught up and other platforms have caught up as we've just talked about. So, what convinced you that this bet was one worth taking?

对我来说，你知道，我年轻时很多使用电脑的经历都非常孤立。所以，你知道，我成长过程中爱上了电脑。我沉迷其中，对吧？但那时候，为了用电脑，你必须在电脑实验室里用，对吧？所以这意味着，在课间休息时，我不是去操场上玩，你知道，而是在午餐时待在电脑实验室里，对吧？我想如果你把这种情况延续到今天，电脑仍然要求我们某种程度上脱离现实世界，要么低头看小小的手机屏幕，对吧，要么躲在笔记本电脑屏幕后面。所以我觉得，对我来说，你知道，电脑如此强大。它们改变了我们的工作方式，尤其是办公室工作，对吧？当然。嗯，也许对于更多动手的工作来说没那么明显，因为今天的电脑要求我们一直使用双手。所以对我来说，把计算从屏幕中解放出来，带入世界，以一种可以与人共享的方式，将真正释放电脑的潜力，同时也让它更人性化，我认为这在当下至关重要。因为我们平均每天在屏幕上花费七八个小时，

I think for me, you know, a lot of my experience of computers when I was younger was very isolating. So, you know, when I grew up, I fell in love with computers. I got obsessed, right? But back in the day, in order to use a computer, you had to use it in the computer lab, right? And so that meant instead of going and playing on the field, you know, at recess, you I'd be inside the computer lab at lunch, right? And I think if you just play that forward to today, computers still require us to sort of check out of the real world and either look down at a small phone screen, right, or get behind a a laptop screen. And and so I think for me, you know, computers are so powerful. they've transformed the way that we work and especially with desk jobs, right? For sure. Um maybe less so with, you know, more hands-on jobs because computers today require us to use our our hands all the time. And so for me, the promise and the vision of bringing computing off of a screen and into the world in a way that can be shared amongst people will truly unlock the computer's potential, but also make it more human in a way that I think is essential at this moment in time. Because we're spending seven or eight hours a day on screens on average,

不止那么多。

more than that.

我认为我们已经到了这样一个地步：如果我们不采取行动，让计算更好地融入我们的生活，帮助我们更好地相互联系，并活在当下，那么最终，我只是觉得我们无法在未来获得计算的完整好处。所以，宏大的愿景是通过将计算带入世界，让它更人性化。嗯，这就是为什么我们 12 年来投资于增强现实和眼镜，投入了数十亿美元。但我认为我们看到了那个未来，而且我们现在比以往任何时候都更接近它。

And I think we've gotten to the point where if we don't take action to make computing better fit into our lives and help us better connect with one another and stay present in the moment that ultimately I I just don't think we're going to get the full benefits uh of computing in the future. So the big vision is to make computing more human by bringing it into the world. Um and that's why we've been investing in augmented reality and glasses for 12 years and billions of dollars. But I think we we see that future and and we're closer now than than we ever have been.

是的，我的屏幕时间相当相当糟糕，但它确实必不可少。我的意思是，我们在这些设备上工作。我们通过这种方式与朋友和家人个人联系。所以听到这个演变，对吧，因为电脑从我们的办公桌开始，然后进入我们的口袋，对吧，现在我们的手机正走向我们的脸。我想问你的问题是，顺便说一句，我完全认同你的愿景。我相信这就是未来。只是事情适应得有多快的问题。所以我的问题是，那个时间线是什么？你认为需要什么才能实现那种大规模采用，让人们开始远离手机？我猜手机又会怎样？

Yeah, my screen time is pretty pretty disgusting, but but it really it's just essential. I mean, we're working on these devices. We're that's how we're connecting personally with with our friends and our families. And so hearing this evolution, right, because computers started on our desk, then they went to our pockets, right, with our phones now going to our faces. I guess my question for you is, and by the way, I'm fully bought in to your vision. I believe like this is the future. It's just a question of how quickly things adapt. So my question for you is what's that timeline? What do you think it will take in order for that kind of mass adoption of people who kind of start moving away from the phones? And I guess what what happens to the phone?

所以我认为手机不会消失，就像笔记本电脑没有消失，台式机没有消失，甚至电视，你知道，也没有消失。嗯，但我认为随着时间的推移，人们会将更多的计算行为转移到眼镜上，因为方便，对吧，能够真正使用眼镜，让双手自由，能够看到其他人并与世界互动。我认为能够使用计算而不放弃与现实世界和周围人的联系，这种好处真的非常非常引人注目。然后你知道，显然我们可以稍微谈谈一些用例和实用功能。嗯，但你知道，一旦你能够将信息带入并实际叠加在你周围的世界中，而不是要求你一直低头看这个小屏幕，我认为你会获得很多实用性的好处，此外还能保持与周围世界的联系。但就时间框架而言，我的意思是，我们的总体观点是，你知道，眼镜将准备好在 2030 年左右成为更面向大众市场的产品。嗯，所以今天，你知道，它们售价 21.95 美元。你可以在 specs.com 上查看。嗯，但它们更面向早期采用者，你知道，面向对技术真正充满热情的人。你可以想想 20 世纪 80 年代购买第一台 Macintosh 的人，嗯，你知道，或者那些在 2005 年左右 CUDA 推出时玩转 AI 和 GPU 的人，对吧，有长达十年的时间，很多早期采用者都在玩转 GPU 和人工智能的可能性，直到现在，大约 20 年后，我们才看到你知道大规模的大规模采用。所以今天的重点是关注早期采用者、开发者，真正构建平台和人们可以拥有的所有不可思议的体验，然后你知道，随着价格下降、外形因素变得更轻、电池寿命延长，我们将更接近一款可以出货数百万台的产品，并最终改变人们使用计算的方式。

So I don't think the phone's going to go away just like laptops haven't gone away, desktops haven't gone away, even televisions, you know, have haven't gone away. Uh but I think over time people will move more of their you know computing behaviors into glasses because of the convenience right of being able to actually use glasses keep your hands free to actually be able to see other people and interact with the world. I think the benefits of being able to use computing without giving up your connection to the real world and the people around you is is really really uh compelling. And then you know obviously we can talk a little bit about some of the use cases and utilities. Um, but you know, the minute you're able to bring that information and actually overlay it in the world around you rather than requiring you to look down at this little screen all the time, you get a lot uh, I think of of utility benefits in addition to being able to staying grounded in the in the world around you. But in terms of time frame, I mean, our general view is that, you know, specs will be ready for as more of a mass market product, you know, in the 2030 time frame. Uh, so today, you know, they're 21.95. You can check them out specs.com. Um but they're more oriented towards early adopters you know to people who are really passionate about technology. You can think about the people who were buying the first you know Macintosh in the 1980s um you know or who were playing around with you know AI and GPUs you know back you know gosh what would it be in 2005 CUDA was introduced right and there was a decade long period where a lot of early adopters were playing around with GPUs and what was possible in artificial intelligence and only now today right about 20 years later have we seen you know massive massive adoption um at scale. So our focus today is to focus on early adopters, developers, really build out the platform and all the incredible experiences people can have and then you know as the price point comes down and the form factor uh gets lighter and battery life extends we'll we'll be closer to a product that can ship millions and millions of units and ultimately change the world in terms of the way people use computing.

在这之前，在我们坐下来之前，我有幸试用了这些眼镜，真的非常非常酷。所以，我试了我想是几年前的一个旧版本，然后我试了即将推出的那个，我有一些观察想和你分享。我们会把这当作现场反馈。

And before this before we sat down I had the privilege of getting to try the specs guys and really really cool. So, I I tried I think an older version that was from a few years ago and then I tried the one that's coming out soon and I have a few observations that I want to share with you. We'll use this as a live.

我想，是的，我想在这里得到反馈。

I want Yeah, I want the feedback here.

所以，首先，你现在购物车中一半的品牌都在悄悄运行着同样的东西。美泰、Gym Shark，如果你现在在电脑前，它可能就在你的某个标签页里。它就是 Shopify。如果你一直有一个商业想法，最困难的部分已经为你处理好了。每次我买东西准备付款时，我都会注意到。一键完成。我所有的详细信息都已经保存好了。那就是 Shopify 结账。它是销售和弃购之间的区别，这意味着这些商店背后的创始人不会埋头于设置。他们可以把时间花在真正的发展上。你将在与家喻户晓的品牌相同的平台上构建。在 shopify.com/socialcurrency 开始你的免费试用。有了 Shopify，你的想法和真正的企业之间没有任何障碍。所以，去把它变成现实吧。在 shopify.com/socialcurrency 开始你的免费试用。

So, first, half the brands in your cart right now are quietly running on the same thing. Mattel, Gym Shark, if you're on your computer right now, it's probably in one of your tabs right now. It's Shopify. And if you've been sitting on a business idea, the hardest part is already handled for you. I notice it every single time I buy something and I'm ready to pay. It's one tap, done. All my details are already saved. That's Shopify checkout. And it's the difference between a sale and an abandoned cart, which means the founders behind these stores aren't buried in setup. They get to spend that time actually growing. You'd be building on the same platform as the household names. Start your free trial at shopify.com/socialcurrency. With Shopify, nothing stands between your idea and a real business. So, go make it one. Start your free trial at shopify.com/socialcurrency.

One more time, start your free trial at shopify.com/socialcurrency. I think I look really great in them. I'm half kidding, but I think they actually do look really cool. I was first impressed with how they—like, walking around in LA would feel really confident and excited to wear them. They actually would kind of—they look like the sunglasses that I choose to wear, you know, that don't have the computer features. So, that's number one. I thought the look was really great. And I know what I had heard just in media coverage and whatnot was the weight. I actually thought that these felt totally fine. You know, I felt like obviously they're—they're chunkier glasses. You can see that when you look at it, but the weight was not something that I really even thought about. And then the third thing that I really—this is less of a product feedback and more of something where I know I would use it if I—if I was, you know, in one of these early adopters—is for things like cooking, right? When I am like—unfortunately I don't have any recipe memorized, like I need to go on YouTube or whatever and go through a recipe. But for me, if I were to have a YouTube video that was playing, this would change my life because what I do, I have my phone and I will stand it up and it's getting olive oil on it. It's getting like garlic and then it like somehow jalapeno and it somehow ends up in my eye later on because it's on my phone. I don't know how it works, but this is kind of like the perfect disintermediation of having that device that you need with you that you kind of want to have as part of the experience. But in that specific instance, right, like the phone is a bug and not a feature. Whereas the glasses, it's really just—it would be so organic and useful in that situation. And so I can just think of—I mean, that was just the first one that came to mind, but there are so many instances that as I'm thinking about things that I'm doing on a regular basis where it's really nice to have those glasses and to be hands-free.

It's unbelievable.

Yeah.

Yeah. I think we don't realize how much time we're preoccupied holding our phones, right, and not actually getting stuff done.

Yeah. And just like—I don't even know how this happened, but I like developed this like thumb—I don't know—strain from typing all the time.

Bent pinky. Do you have the bent pinky from holding your phone? No, but I have the thumb issue.

So, I—any opportunity to use less of my phone and physically hold it, I'm all about. You had mentioned the price point. And so, what would you say to someone who's like, "Hey, I am interested in this, but the 21.95 price point is, you know, a little bit much for me."

Well, we're going to offer buy now pay later, so you can pay as you go. I think that helps. Um, you know, but the way to think about specs is really as a computer and so it's priced around the price point of, you know, a high-end MacBook or something like that. So I think that's really the way to think about it. Um, is—is more of an investment in a computer than, you know, a pair of sunglasses.

Yeah. And that positioning I think is helpful because I think from—if you look at the other products that are coming to market by other companies, right, it's a very different positioning. This is, if you think about it as, okay, this—this is truly something that has—it also has extended battery life with the case. And it's something that if you think of as more of a—yeah, a computer versus just an accessory that you wear, it's very different.

I completely agree. I—I think the most important thing for us will just be having people try it. So that's what I'm most excited about, you know, over the next couple years. Like no one's tried anything like this before. I mean, probably before you tried specs today, you had had an experience like that. So—

Yeah. No, I was freaking out. I would have loved to actually have a recording of me trying it.

You should have done that. It would have been great.

Missed opportunities. Evan, what can I say? But no, I literally was bugging out because it's pretty crazy the idea that you—I went to the browser section and then I was typing in Wall Street Journal and trying to pull up, you know, different sites and it took me a second to kind of like get immersed in it cuz I had never done anything like that. That was my first experience with any kind of AR.

Wow.

Anything.

Cool.

So, it was like literally—yeah, it was huge. Huge. Can we also talk about the meme of it all?

Of course. Yeah. Which one?

I'm talking about just the—the iconic you wearing these glasses when something like that happens. What's your reaction and—and what do you do?

Well, it's such a blessing because we were able to break through, right? So, you know, if you look at the reach we were able to generate in people's awareness and understanding of specs, like that was the greatest blessing of all. And there were other AR devices and products released that day that got zero attention or very limited attention and coverage and specs really stood out at a really important moment for us. And you know, I think the challenge was that, you know, we'd actually brought specs to a developer conference to share with developers who really understand the technology and how we're positioning, right? And the—the developer and enterprise feedback at the conference is, oh my gosh, they're so light and so cheap, right? Because the headsets that do all the AR things that you experience today in the past have been really heavy and really, really expensive. And so specs to a lot of folks who are really familiar with these sorts, you know, this sort of technology represent a huge leap forward. But when it crossed over into the, you know, consumer landscape through—through the meme, I think there was a lot of confusion because people were comparing specs to the spy glasses that other companies are—are working on and they're like, "What is going on? These are huge and chunk, you know, they're—they're expensive and why—why would I buy these?" Because folks haven't yet experienced what it's like to use augmented reality glasses. So, I think for me, like that's the big opportunity, right, that we've now generated a lot of awareness and interest. And if we can convert that to people wanting to try them out and actually see for themselves uh what specs are like, I think that'll be huge for driving more adoption.

And the other thing that is a hot topic with not specs but really all glasses is the privacy piece. Right. So what specs I understand is doing is when there's any kind of recording there's going to be a indicator light of some kind that makes it very visible to other people who are on the other side like hey this—this device is recording.

那么，你如何看待隐私？因为隐私对 Snapchat 来说非常根本和核心，从一开始就是如此。所以，对于那些对隐私部分有点怀疑或紧张的人，你会说什么？

So, how do you think about privacy? Because privacy is really fundamental and core to Snapchat and has been from the very beginning. So, what do you say to people who are a little bit skeptical or nervous about the privacy piece?

是的，这对我们非常重要。有趣的是，我回想起第一代 Spectacles，大约 10 年前，那真的只是相机眼镜，对吧？但我们在当时称为 Spectacles 的产品上做了一些独特的事情，我们设计了一种非常独特的风格。我们在相机周围放了一个巨大的黄色环。我们让它非常明显是相机眼镜，并且这就是它们的用途。因此，人们感到更舒适。它几乎有一种早期宝丽来的感觉。因为人们知道你在戴相机眼镜，知道你在录像。我认为今天一些公司推出的产品面临的挑战是，它们试图伪装成普通眼镜。所以你不知道人们戴的是普通的雷朋眼镜还是间谍眼镜。我认为这就是消费者担忧的合理来源。你可以通过我们设计 Spectacles 的方式来辨别，它们很独特，很显眼。但更重要的是，我们设计它们是为了作为计算机使用。所以我认为今天人们不会认为手机是巨大的隐私风险，即使它有摄像头，对吧？因为绝大多数时候，当你使用手机时，你并不是在拍别人。你在发短信或看视频或其他什么。所以我认为对我们来说，随着人们了解 Spectacles，他们意识到哦，那个人不是在录视频，他们实际上在看 Netflix。我认为这改变了消费者对 Spectacles 的期望和理解。所以这可能是最重要的部分。然后当然，我们在设备上做了很多花哨的东西来保护人们的隐私。所以我们有两个处理器，对吧？一个理解世界，另一个运行应用程序。所以运行并理解你周围世界的镜片实际上并没有访问原始数据，对吧？如果开发者想要它，他们必须非常清楚地请求。使用 Spectacles 的人必须同意。所以，我们真的考虑了很多重要方式来保护人们在使用 Spectacles 时的数据隐私。显然，要明确何时在录像，但最重要的是区分试图在普通眼镜中隐藏录像功能与将计算机设计到眼镜中。主要用例不是拍摄视频。

Yeah, it's so important to us. You know, it's funny is I think back on the first generation of specs, which is now like 10 years ago or something that really were just camera glasses, right? But we did something unique with spectacles as they were called at the time, but we made a really distinctive style. We put a huge yellow ring around the camera. We made it really obvious that they were camera glasses and that's what they were for. And so as a result, people felt more comfortable. It felt like it almost had like an early Polaroid vibe or something like that. Because people knew that you were wearing camera glasses and knew that you were recording. I think the challenge today with some of the products that people are putting out is they're trying to disguise them to look like normal glasses. So you don't know are people wearing a regular pair of Ray-Bans or are they wearing the spy glass pair of Ray-Bans? And I think that's where a lot of the consumer concern rightly I think is coming from. And I think you can tell by the way that we've designed specs to be distinctive to stand out. But more importantly, we've designed them to be used as a computer. So I don't think people today think of the phone as a huge privacy risk even though it has a camera, right? Because the vast majority of the time when you're using your phone, you're not taking pictures of other people. You're text messaging or watching videos or whatever it is. So I think for us as people get to know specs and they realize like oh that person's not making a video, they're actually watching Netflix. That I think changes the consumer expectation understanding of what specs are. And so that's probably the most important part. And then of course we do all of this fancy stuff to protect people's privacy on the device. So we have two processors, right? One understands the world, the other one runs the applications. And so lenses that are running and understand the world around you aren't actually getting access to that raw data, right? And if a developer wants it, they have to very clearly ask for it. Someone has to, you know, who's using specs has to consent to it. So, we've really thought through a lot of the important ways to keep people's data private when they're using specs. And obviously to make it clear when they're recording, but the most important thing is that distinction between trying to hide the recording features in a normal pair of glasses versus designing a computer into a pair of glasses. That's primary use case is not taking videos.

这真的很有趣，因为我之前没有这样想过，但你想想，每个人，关于今天有多少年轻人认为自己是创作者的统计数据，对吧？基本上每个人都是。嗯，每个人都有创造力。这是好事，对吧？

It's really interesting because I hadn't thought of it that way, but you just think I mean everyone the stats around how many young people consider themselves to be creators today, right? It's like basically everyone. Well, everyone is creative. That's a good thing, right?

是的。是的。我认为问题是，如果你走在街上，有人，我的意思是，你在纽约到处都会看到，人们会把手机放在建筑物的侧面，有时会固定住，然后录像。谁知道呢？也许是在跳舞，也许是别的什么。但如果你是在背景中走路的人，你不会对隐私有同样的反应。但这是因为我认为我们已经习惯了理解这只是会发生的事情，而这是一种新前沿技术，或者至少它呈现的方式和外形是这样。所以只是让人们接受它，并有一点正常化，再次，我之前说过，我会再说一遍。我认为这项技术是不可避免的，只是让人们更熟悉它。

Yeah. Yeah. And I think the thing is if you're walking on the street and someone has I mean, you'll see all the time everywhere in New York where people will put their phone on kind of like a side of a building and they'll like sometimes attach it and they'll like do a recording. Who knows? Maybe it's dancing, maybe it's whatever. But like you don't have that same reaction of privacy if you're the person who's maybe like walking in the background. But it's because I think we've been trained to understand that this is just something that happens whereas this is a new frontier technology or at least the way that it's presented is and the form factor is. So just getting people on board with it and a little bit of normalcy once again I said it before I'll say it again. I think this technology is inevitable and it's just getting people to be more familiar with it.

绝对。并确保人们感到掌控，对吧？我认为这非常重要。

Absolutely. And making sure people feel in control, right? I think that's really important.

是的。

Yeah.

好的。所以，我还想谈谈 Spotlight，因为这是，我的意思是，如果你几年前问我，Snap 是否会进入这个领域，我不一定会预测到。显然，这是 Snap 的一个较新的垂直领域。但 Spotlight，对于任何不熟悉的听众来说，它是 Snap 上的视频优先 feed。今年第一季度，美国 Spotlight 发布者同比增长了近 74%。所以我听到了这些数字。我听到了视频优先。恭喜。采用率很高。人们似乎对此非常兴奋。那么，是什么推动了 Spotlight 的采用和兴奋？

Okay. So, I also want to talk about Spotlight because this is I mean, if you asked me years ago, a few years ago, if Snap would be going into this space, I wouldn't have necessarily predicted it. It's obviously it's a newer vertical for Snap. But Spotlight, for anyone who's listening who is not familiar, it's the video first feed on Snap. And in Q1 of this year, Spotlight posters in the US were up nearly 74% year-over-year. So I hear those numbers. I hear video first. Congrats. It's a ton of adoption. People seem to be really excited about it. So what is driving this adoption and excitement over Spotlight?

嗯，它现在是我们服务中增长最快的部分之一。我认为每月有超过 5 亿人使用它。所以它已成为我们平台的重要组成部分。我认为我们看到 Spotlight 真正引起共鸣的是真实性。我认为人们有点厌倦了其他短视频服务的表演性质。他们肯定厌倦了 AI 垃圾。Snapchat 的独特之处之一是我们能分辨视频是否真的用我们的相机拍摄。所以我们做了很多工作来提升用 Snapchat 相机拍摄的视频，我们知道这些是真实的，由真人制作。所以我认为这真的帮助人们感受到与可能像是街坊邻居的人的联系。制作真正突出的真实内容，我认为在人们不再信任所见内容的时期。所以我认为这真的帮助加速了 Spotlight 的增长，通过摆脱所有 AI 垃圾内容，真正提升和专注于用我们相机制作的真实内容，我们的社区非常富有表现力。我的意思是人们每天制作数十亿个 Snap，他们选择与整个社区分享一些到 Spotlight，我认为看到 Snapchat 上人们无尽的创造力真是太棒了。

Well, it is like one of the fastest growing parts of our service right now. I think it's used by over half a billion people every month. So it's become an important part of our platform. I think what we've seen really resonate about Spotlight is the authenticity. I think people are sort of fed up with some of the performative nature of other short video services. They're definitely fed up with AI slop. And one of the unique things that Snapchat has is we can tell when videos are actually made in our camera and with our camera. And so we've done a lot of work to uprank essentially videos made with the Snapchat camera that we know are authentic and made by real people. And so I think that that is really helping folks feel a connection to people who feel like they could be their neighbor down the street or something like that. Making real content that really stands out I think at a period of time where people don't trust what they see anymore. And so I think that has really helped accelerate the growth of Spotlight by getting rid of all the AI slop content really upranking and focusing on real content made with our camera and our community is just so expressive. I mean people are making billions of snaps every day and they choose to share a bunch of them to Spotlight with our entire community and I think it's just so amazing to see that just endless creativity of folks on Snapchat.

为 Spotlight 做个宣传。所以，我请过 Gary Vaynerchuk 上播客，我和他一起吃过晚饭，你知道他整个事情，他谈到作为创作者，你需要在所有平台上发布，他特别有点小演讲，关于特别是创作者在 Spotlight 上的机会，以及人们真正拥抱它的方式和那里的增长。所以，你从我这里和 Gary Vaynerchuk 那里听到了，去 Spotlight 吧。嗯，你能分享如果想到任何人吗？太好了。有人在 Spotlight 上做事情，比如某种创作者，你认为在其他地方不会成功，因为你谈到了 Spotlight 在内容创作类型上的独特性。

And one plug for Spotlight. So, I have had Gary Vaynerchuk on the podcast and I was at a dinner with him and you know his whole thing he talks about as you're if you're a creator you need to post on all the platforms and he specifically was just he kind of had a mini soap box about the opportunity especially for creators on Spotlight and the way that really people are embracing it and all the growth there. So, you heard it from me and Gary Vaynerchuk go on Spotlight. Um, can you share if anyone comes to mind? Great. Someone who's doing something on Spotlight, like a creator of some kind that you don't think would work anywhere else, cuz you talked about how unique Spotlight is in the type of content creation.

本期节目由 Mercury 赞助，这是一家与众不同的银行，深受超过 30 万企业家的喜爱。来做个现实检验。你不会用 outdated 的软件来经营你的企业。你不会用 90 年代的工具来发布产品。那么，为什么我们很多人还在像 1995 年那样办理银行业务呢？在经历了太多次试图发送一笔简单电汇的令人沮丧的体验后，我换到了 Mercury。我们说的是和我的银行来回打电话、等待接通、手动确认那些本应自动完成的细节。与此同时，我浪费了本可以用来真正建设我企业的时间。Mercury 彻底改变了这一切。它按照你期望的一流软件应有的方式运作。它直观、快速、优雅。我可以发送当日转账、开具发票、在一个仪表盘上清楚地看到我的企业财务状况。没有线下拜访，没有意外费用，不需要把五个不同的工具拼凑起来做一件事。随着我的团队成长，我可以给我的簿记员精确的访问权限，不多不少。支出限额、商户锁定、资金流动前的多步审批。它就是好用。如果你在工作中其他地方都不接受平庸的工具，为什么要在像你的钱这样重要的事情上接受它们呢？访问 mercury.com 了解更多信息，并在几分钟内在线申请。Mercury 是一家金融科技公司，不是 FDIC 保险的银行，银行服务通过 Choice Financial Group 和 Column NA 提供，它们是 FDIC 成员。

This episode is brought to you by Mercury, radically different banking loved by over 300,000 entrepreneurs. Here's a reality check. You wouldn't run your business on outdated software. You wouldn't ship products using tools from the '90s. So, why are so many of us still banking like it's 1995? I switched to Mercury after one too many frustrating experiences trying to send a simple wire transfer. We're talking phone tag with my bank, waiting on hold, manually confirming details that should have been automatic. Meanwhile, I'm losing hours I could have spent actually building my business. Mercury has changed that completely. It works the way you'd expect best-in-class software to work. It's intuitive, fast, and elegant. I can send same-day transfers, issue invoices, see exactly where my business stands financially, all from one dashboard. There are no in-person visits, no surprise fees, no duct-taping together five different tools to do one thing. And as my team has grown, I can give my bookkeeper access to exactly what she needs. Nothing more, nothing less. Spending limits, merchant locks, multi-step approvals before money moves. It just works. If you don't accept mediocre tools anywhere else in your work, why accept them for something as important as your money? Visit mercury.com to learn more and apply online in minutes. Mercury is a fintech company, not an FDIC-insured bank, banking services provided through Choice Financial Group and Column NA, members FDIC.

有没有哪个创作者正在做一些非常酷的事情，让你印象深刻？

Is there a creator that's doing something really cool that comes to mind?

这个问题问得好。我觉得我喜欢 Spotlight 的地方在于，它不一定关乎最著名的网红或创作者。有时甚至不是关于那些真正想要建立粉丝群或成为创作者的人。只是我们每天都有如此庞大的创作基数在持续发生。我喜欢钓鱼。所以其实在来这里的路上，我正在看一个视频，有人钓到了一条巨大的鱼，他们正在把它拉上来，而这个人并不是想成为创作者。有时人们甚至不分享自己的名字。他们发帖时不想分享显示名称，因为他们只是想分享一个他们认为很酷的瞬间，但他们不想要大量粉丝。正是这些真实的瞬间，才格外非凡。或者你知道，还有另一个视频，有人刚好拍到一只小熊跳进河里抓鱼。我不知道。我最近看到很多和鱼相关的内容，但那是一个惊人的瞬间。看着社区回应，说“哇，我不敢相信你就在那里看到了那个。”对吧？这些瞬间，我认为人们并不一定计划去捕捉，对吧？这些非凡的日常瞬间发生在现实生活中，人们没有像网红或创作者那样排练，但它们是坦率的瞬间，然后他们与社区分享。所以这就是我认为 Spotlight 如此特别的原因，因为上面有那么多瞬间，也许人们最初只想和最好的朋友或家人分享，但他们会说：“天哪，这太酷了。我得和社区里的其他人分享。”所以我认为你可以通过一个很酷的窗口看到世界各地正在发生的事情，这些不一定以创作者为中心，但真正代表了整个 Snapchat 社区。

What a great question. So, I think what I like about Spotlight is that it's not necessarily about the most famous influencers or creators. Sometimes it's not even about people who are really trying to build a following or be a creator. It's just that we have such a huge base of daily creation happening all the time. I like fishing. So on actually on the way over here I was watching a video somebody caught a massive fish and they were pulling it in and it was not someone who was trying to be a creator. I sometimes people don't even share their name. They just will post without wanting to share their display name because they're just trying to share a moment they think is cool, but they don't want a huge following. And it's those real moments that are just extraordinary. Or you know there was another video of someone who just caught a baby bear jumping into the river and catching a fish. I don't know. I'm getting a lot of like fish-oriented content these days, but it was an amazing moment. And to watch the community respond and be like, "Wow, I can't believe that you were right there and saw that." Right? These are moments that I think people aren't necessarily like planning on capturing, right? There are these extraordinary everyday moments that are happening in real life that people aren't rehearsing the way that maybe an influencer or a creator would, but they're a candid moment that they then share with the community. And so that's what I think is so special about Spotlight because there are so many moments on there that maybe people originally intended just to share with their best friend or their family, but they're like, "Man, this is pretty cool. I got to share it with the rest of the community." So I think you get a really cool window into what's happening around the world that's not necessarily creator-focused, but really represents the entire Snapchat community.

好的。非常酷。所以我想和你聊聊一些预测。预测，也从更广阔的视角聊聊这个领域，因为你在这个行业里领导它已经超过十年了。在 2036 年，也就是 10 年后，Snap 作为一家公司会是什么样子？

Okay. Very cool. So I want to talk about some predictions with you. Predictions and also more about the space from a broad perspective because you've been in this industry leading it for over a decade now. In 2036, 10 years from now, what does Snap as a company look like?

我认为我们仍然会帮助人们与朋友和家人保持亲密联系。而且你知道，我们实现这一目标的方式可能会改变，但我认为视觉沟通非常强大。我们实际上真的还处于其可能性的开端。我认为它始于每个人口袋里都有一台连接互联网的相机，对吧，通过他们的智能手机。这真正开启了视觉沟通的这场革命。我觉得这非常迷人，因为它超越了文化。它超越了语言障碍，以如此强大的方式将人们聚集在一起。所以，我敢打赌，你知道，10 年后，我们仍然会通过视觉沟通将人们聚集在一起。我相信我们会发明大量新的有趣方式来实现这一点。但我认为我们仍然处于其真正强大之处的开端。

I think we're still going to be helping people stay close to their friends and family. And I think, you know, the way that we do that may change, but I think visual communication is so powerful. And we're actually really at the beginning of what's possible there. I think it started with everyone having a camera connected to the internet in their pocket, right, through their smartphone. That really kicked off this revolution in visual communication. And I think it's so fascinating because it transcends cultures. It transcends language barriers and it brings people together in such powerful ways. So, I would bet, you know, 10 years from now, we're still bringing people together through visual communication. And I'm sure we'll invent a ton of new fun ways to do that. But I think we're still at the beginning of how powerful that really is.

从沟通的角度来看，因为你说过 Snap 的核心和本质就是人类相互沟通的方式。显然，技术使这成为可能，但你认为——因为你说视觉沟通将成为核心。你认为 10 年后，在视觉沟通方面，有什么会比今天更明显吗？你认为会有什么不同吗？

And from the communication angle, because you've said really at the heart and core of Snap is this way for humans to communicate with each other. Obviously, the technology enables that, but do you think cuz you said visual communication is going to be core. Do you think that there's anything 10 years from now that is more apparent in terms of visual communication than it is today? Do you think that anything is going to be different?

嗯，我认为最深刻的事情之一，而眼镜将成为其中很大一部分。就像我们今天使用电脑和手机的很多方式，是为了与那些离我们很远、我们实际上不在一起的人保持亲密联系，对吧？而这确实与技术本质有很大关系，即如果人们在同一个房间里，技术实际上会阻碍他们相互联系的能力。所以，有一个有趣的悖论，对吧？我们变得如此亲近。我们能够与所有那些远方的人保持联系，但实际上有时我们感觉比那些就坐在我们对面的人更远，你知道，在餐桌上，或者现在如果我坐在我的手机上，我认为那会阻碍我们进行良好对话的能力。所以，我认为真正会改变的事情是，当我们看待计算和眼镜时，终于第一次，我们将能够以将我们聚集在一起的方式使用电脑。所以无论我们是面对面坐在一起玩游戏，还是一起看视频，一起建造东西，学习新东西，我认为电脑在人们处于同一空间时将他们聚集在一起并帮助他们联系的能力，将会非常非常有意义。当然，你知道，这对我们的工作方式和协作方式也有大量影响。所以对我来说，这可能是未来 10 年的重大转变。

Well, I think one of the most profound things and specs is going to be a huge part of that. Like a lot of the ways that we use computers and phones today is to stay close to people that are far away from us that we're not actually with, right? And that really has a lot to do with the nature of technology as something that actually obstructs people's ability to connect with one another if they're in the same room. So, there's this funny paradox, right? That we've gotten so much closer. we've been able to stay in touch with all these people that are far away, but actually sometimes we feel further away than the people, you know, from the people just sitting across from us, you know, at the dinner table or right now if I was sitting on my phone, I think that would obstruct our ability to have a great conversation. And so the thing that I think is really going to change as we look at computing and we look at things with specs is that finally for the first time we're going to be able to use computers in a way that bring us together. So whether we're sitting across from each other and playing a game together or we're watching a video together, we're building something together, learning something new, I think the capacity for computers to bring people together and help them connect when they're in the same space is going to be really really meaningful. And of course it has, you know, tons of implications for the way that we work as well and collaborate. So that to me is probably the big shift over the next 10 years.

今天早些时候我试戴那副眼镜时，我还在想一件事：团队给我展示了一个东西——我记不清具体是什么了——但可以看一枚火箭，点击火箭的不同部位，它就会教你相关知识。我就在想象这类技术。当然，朋友和家人之间的沟通很棒。但在教育方面有这么多应用，对吧？我觉得我们核心教育体系中有很多元素，好坏参半——我的意思是，把东西写在纸上很好，不是说那应该消失——但技术有太多机会来增强体验。所以当我看到那样的东西时，我就想，哦，如果孩子们也能拥抱这个，以更沉浸的方式学习，那该多酷啊。所以对我来说，这是一个我希望得到发展的巨大领域。我的意思是，人们仍然需要——孩子们需要在户外玩耍，他们需要接触草地。但这只是对你在某种教室或学习环境中的一种增强。

And what I was thinking about too when I was actually trying on the specs earlier today was the team had shown me this—I forget exactly what it was—but this way to look at this rocket and you could kind of click through the different parts of the rocket, it would teach you about it. And I'm just picturing this type of technology. Of course, yes, communication between friends and family, great. But there are all these applications when it comes to education, right? Like I just—I think there's so many elements of just our core education system that for better for worse—I mean, it's great to write things down on a piece of paper, not saying that should go away—but there are so many opportunities for technology to enhance the experience. And so I saw something like that and I was like, oh, wouldn't that be so cool for kids to embrace this too and to learn in this more immersive way? So for me that's a huge area that I hope gets developed. I mean, still once again, people still need to—kids need to play outside, they need to touch grass. But this is just an enhancement to when you are in some kind of classroom or learning environment.

是的。我觉得关于眼镜最有趣的一点是，你知道，我很久以来的愿景就是：望向窗外，看到孩子们跑来跑去，然后转头对妻子说：“天哪，我们没法让他们离开那该死的电脑，对吧？”然后改变人们对电脑的整个认知。他们当时并没有在跑，但我几乎有了那种体验。这大概是大约一年前的事了，但比如我们家的前门是玻璃的。所以我透过门看出去，看到我们的两个孩子一起玩，戴着眼镜跑来跑去，对吧？他们在搭建东西，你会想，哇，这真是电脑能做的事情的真正改变。而且它鼓励你——我们家里有四个男孩，所以如果他们不在外面活动，他们就会把房子烧了，你知道吧？所以，如果我们能有一台电脑，可以帮助他们学习、一起玩，并鼓励他们到户外跑动，但让它更具互动性，支持他们的想象力——对我来说，这就是电脑真正应该有的样子的开端。当我对比，你知道，我们的孩子将要在其中长大的电脑，能够把计算带入世界，与我在计算机实验室里使用电脑的经历相比——这种转变对我来说是如此深刻。

Yeah. And I think what's so funny with specs is that, you know, my vision for a really long time was wanting to look out the window, see our kids running around and turn to my wife and say, "God, we can't get them off the damn computer, right?" And like change the entire perception of what a computer is. And they weren't running, but I almost had that experience. This is now maybe about a year ago, but like our front door is glass. And so I was looking through it and like two of our kids were playing together, running around with the specs on, right? And they're building stuff and you're like, wow, that's a real change in what a computer can do. And it encourages you—we've got four boys at home, so if they are not being exercised outside, like they're going to burn the place down, you know? And so the idea that like we could have a computer that could help them learn something, play together, and encourage behaviors like running around outside but making it more interactive, supporting their imagination—like that to me is the beginning of what a computer really should be. And when I contrast, you know, the computers that our kids are going to grow up with, you know, being able to bring computing in the world with my experience of a computer inside the computer lab—like, it's that transformation that's so profound for me.

是的，我非常期待看到所有这些发展。但你提到了你的孩子，这正好引出了下一个问题。所以，这个问题来自我们的社交货币角，我会在这里听取你对影响商业和文化的趋势或商业故事的看法。我非常兴奋现在能和你交谈，因为显然这个行业有太多事情在发生。我觉得最近每一周都有重大新闻爆出。世界上许多政府都在考虑，好吧，我们如何为儿童在社交媒体上设定最低年龄，但昨天也有一个针对 Meta 的里程碑式和解案件，涉及年轻人使用他们的平台。我知道这是一个复杂的问题，但你怎么看待社交媒体上的年龄限制辩论？

Yeah, I'm very excited to see how all of that develops. But you brought up your kids, which is a perfect segue to the next question. So, this question comes from our social currency corner, where I get your input on a trend or business story that's impacting business and culture. And I'm very excited to be speaking with you right now because obviously there's so much going on in the industry. I feel like every single week lately there is some major news story that breaks. Many governments around the world are thinking about, okay, how do we kind of have a minimum age for children on social media, but there was also a landmark settlement case for Meta that came through yesterday for young people using their platform. I know this is a loaded question, but how do you think about this age-gating debate on social media?

我可以从我们家庭的角度来谈，但我认为首先，最重要的是，我们必须在网上保护年轻人的安全，就这样。我们为此投入了不懈的努力。我的意思是，我记得 2013 年我们有了第一份家长指南——现在叫家庭中心——以及所有的家长控制功能，我们还有一个名为“钥匙”的教育项目，帮助人们学习如何保持网络安全。当然，Snapchat 本身的设计就根本不同，它是围绕人们与朋友和家人沟通而设计的，这在研究中有所体现，我觉得这非常有趣。所以美国、欧洲、澳大利亚的独立研究一再发现，Snapchat 对人们的福祉有积极影响，对他们的关系也有积极影响，因为它的设计是围绕与朋友和家人沟通，这对心理健康和福祉至关重要，这些发现与其他平台的研究结果不同，对吧？所以我认为 Snapchat 和我们想要扮演的角色是积极的。现在，在线连接肯定存在风险，所以我们不懈地投资于信任和安全。我们确保人们在交流之前必须互相添加为好友。呃，我们与执法部门合作等等。所以在线连接总是存在风险。呃，但根本上，Snapchat 的设计方式与社交媒体不同，旨在促进朋友和家人之间的联系。至少从我们的四个孩子身上，我学到的是他们各不相同。呃，他们在不同的时间会在发育上准备好做不同的事情。所以作为家长，我真的想控制他们在手机上使用什么。所以，你知道，对于 2 岁的孩子，我们几乎不允许使用屏幕。对于 6 岁和 8 岁的孩子，他们偶尔看看电影，或者，你知道，也许他们会在我妻子的手机上玩游戏之类的。然后我们 15 岁的孩子，呃，你知道，他真的在学习管理自己在社交媒体和使用的应用上的时间。所以，我们想监督这种使用。我们想了解他在用什么、什么时候用，并确保他平衡好做作业、和朋友出去玩或做艺术——那是他真正喜欢的。但他真的处于人生的一个阶段，你知道，他再过几年就要上大学了，所以他需要学习管理自己的屏幕时间和社交媒体使用的责任。所以，所有这些都说明，

I can talk about it from, uh, from sort of our family perspective, but I think first and foremost, like, it is fundamental that we keep young people safe online, full stop. We have invested tirelessly in this. I mean, I, you know, I remember the first parents guide we had in 2013—that's now family center—and all the parental controls, and we have an educational program called the keys that helps people learn how to stay safe online. Of course, Snapchat itself has been designed so fundamentally differently around people communicating with their friends and family, and that shows up in the research, which I think is so interesting. So independent research in the US, in Europe, in Australia has found over and over again that Snapchat has a positive impact on people's well-being and a positive impact on their relationships because it's designed around communicating with your friends and family, and that is critical for mental health and well-being, and those findings are different than what they've found for other platforms, right? So I think Snapchat and the role that we want to play is a positive one. Now there are risks to connecting online for sure, and so we invest tirelessly in trust and safety. We make sure people have to add each other as friends before they communicate. Uh, we work with law enforcement, etc. So there are always risks to connection online. Uh, but fundamentally the way that Snapchat is designed is different than social media and is designed to promote connection between friends and family. What I've learned, at least with our four kids, is they're all different. Uh, and they're all going to be ready developmentally for different things at different times. And so for me as a parent, I really want to have control over what they use on their phones. And so, you know, for the 2-year-old, we barely allow screens at all. For the, you know, six and 8-year-old, they're watching movies here and there, or, you know, maybe they'll, you know, play a game or something on my wife's phone. And then our 15-year-old, uh, you know, he's really learning to manage his own time on social media and the apps that he uses himself. And so, we want to supervise that use. We want to understand what he's using and when and make sure he's balancing that with doing his homework and, you know, hanging out with his friends or doing art, which is what he's really into. But he's really at a stage in his life where, you know, he's going off to college in a couple years, so he needs to be learning the responsibility of managing his own uh screen time and and use of social media. So, all of that to say,

家长在这里真的扮演着非常重要的角色。

parents really play such an important role here.

所以，你知道，我们真的想通过 Snapchat 提供的家长控制功能来赋能他们，帮助他们学习如何使用手机操作系统中内置的出色家长控制功能。但我认为，赋能家长并给他们控制权，呃，你知道，因为他们最了解自己的孩子，这比政府禁令或其他什么对这些服务的限制是更好的解决方案。

And so, you know, we really want to empower them with the parental controls we offer in Snapchat, help them learn how to use the great parental controls that are built into the phone operating system. But I think empowering parents and giving them the controls, uh, you know, because they know their kids best, is a better solution than a, you know, sort of government ban or whatever it is on these uh services.

正是最后一点，关于设定一个固定的年龄数字，根据你所说的，真正关注每个孩子并了解他们的发育阶段是更好的策略

Exactly that last point around having a straight age number based on what you said really looking at each of your children and kind of seeing where they are developmentally is a better strategy

至少对我们家来说是这样。而且我想这只是因为，我猜现在有了四个孩子之后，真正看到他们各不相同，在不同时间需要不同的东西。我不确定政府是否非常适合来管教我的孩子。我想我宁愿自己来。

at least for our family. And and I think just that just comes from I guess now four kids later really seeing that they're all different and need different things at different times. And I'm not sure the government is super well positioned to parent my kids. I think I'd rather rather do it myself.

是的。

Yeah.

好的。

All right.

那我们接着聊聊你家庭的其他部分，因为你有一位非常出名的妻子。你的妻子是 Miranda Kerr，世界上最知名的超模之一。你们一起有四个孩子，她还有自己的公司 Kora Organics。所以，问你一个非常严肃的问题：Miranda 教了你哪些护肤知识？

So we're going to move on to other elements of your family, because you have a very famous wife. Your wife is Miranda Kerr, one of the most well-known supermodels in the world. You guys have four kids together and she has her own company, Kora Organics. So, a very serious question for you: what has Miranda taught you about skincare?

哦，天哪。这个特别有意思，因为这事就像烙在我二年级的记忆里一样。我的皮肤天生就非常干，特别干。

Oh, man. Well, you know, this is so funny, because it's like burned in my memory in second grade. So, my skin is very dry naturally, incredibly dry.

看不出来啊。

It doesn't look it.

真的。谢谢。确实很干。我已经改善了很多，但特别有意思，因为我一直皮肤都特别干。我从小就有过敏之类的问题。我记得二年级的时候我们排队，得互相牵着手，我牵了那个女孩的手，她就说：“你的手好干啊。”这事就永远烙在我记忆里了，天哪。

Really. That's—thank you. It really is. I've made a lot of progress, you know, but it's so funny, because I always had such dry skin. I had issues with allergies and stuff growing up. And I remember in second grade we were all in line and we had to hold each other's hands, and I held this girl's hand in second grade and she was like, "Your hands are so dry." You know, and it was like burned into my memory forever, like, oh god.

解锁了一辈子的心理阴影。

Lifelong insecurity unlocked.

所以老实说，娶了一个对自己的产品有如此深入了解和热情的人，真的是绝配，这些产品也帮了我很多。我强烈推荐早上洗澡时用姜黄磨砂膏。强烈推荐那款面部精油。那算是明星产品——这款非面部精油太棒了。但我觉得最酷的是，我们刚开始交往的时候，显然我们都在忙自己的生意。她对这些产品特别在意，研发过程极其严谨，直接和化学家合作，测试、迭代、尝试新配方和新的有机成分。看这个过程真的很酷，说实话，在遇到她之前我对这些一无所知。所以，是的，我学到了很多。有时候我还会当这些新产品的试验品，我总能贡献出我这干皮肤，看看她能不能再做出一个护肤爆款。

And so it was really a perfect match, honestly, to marry someone with such an in-depth knowledge and passion for what she does with her products, and that have helped me a lot. You know, I highly recommend the turmeric scrub in the shower in the morning. Highly recommend the face oil. That's kind of the hero product—this non-face oil is amazing. But I think what was really cool, you know, when we first started seeing each other, obviously we're both working on our businesses. She cares so much about these products and is so rigorous in the way that she develops them and works directly with the chemists and, you know, tests and iterates and tries new formulations and new organic ingredients. It's very cool to watch that process, and it's not something that I knew anything about, frankly, before we met. So, yeah, I've learned a lot. Sometimes I'm a guinea pig for some of these new products, you know, and I can always offer my dry skin to see if she can make another great skincare hit.

我本来想追问你最喜欢哪款 Kora Organics 产品，但你已经——我是说，你已经作为丈夫帮它带货了。你已经抢在我前面了。好。还有一件事，我在研究你和你的家人时想聊一聊，这特别酷，我想确保我的听众都知道。我读到你们家向一个叫 Undo Medical Debt 的组织捐了一笔不小的钱。据我了解，这个组织从医院、医生集团、催收机构等处以极低的价格批量收购医疗债务。我们知道这个国家有很多医疗问题，医疗债务对数百万的人来说是巨大的、巨大的负担。我听说那笔捐赠时，第一反应是，这真的很酷，但对我来说有点突然。所以我想知道为什么是这个使命。最初是什么促使你做出那笔捐赠的？

So my follow-up question was going to be which of the Kora Organics products are your favorite, but you already—I mean, you just hype-husbanded it up. You already beat me to it. So, all right. And another element when I was doing research on you and your family that I wanted to touch on, and this is incredibly cool, and I want to make sure that my listeners know about this. So, I read that your family made a sizable donation to an organization called Undo Medical Debt. And from what I read about it, this organization acquires medical debt in bulk from hospitals, physician groups, collection agencies, and other groups for a fraction of the cost. We know we have many health care issues in this country, and medical debt is a massive, massive burden for millions of people. I heard about that donation. My first reaction was, that's really cool, but it seemed a little bit random to me. So, I wanted to know why that mission. What led you to make that donation in the first place?

几个月前，可能更久一点。我开车去上班，天哪，我路过一个加油站。我心想，油价简直失控了。我想：“洛杉矶的人现在肯定过得很艰难。”然后我想：“我们家能做点什么？”所以这个想法最初是想给洛杉矶人买汽油，买很多汽油。

A couple months ago, maybe a little longer. And I was driving to work and I was like, my god, I drove past a gas station. I was like, the gas prices are just out of control. I was like, "People in LA must be really having a hard time right now." And I was like, "What could our family do?" So, the idea originally started as I wanted to just buy gas for Angelenos, like a lot of gas, you know.

于是我们开始研究怎么给洛杉矶人买大量汽油，还联系了拥有很多大型加油站的人之类的。结果发现这其实相当难做。而且有一些顾虑，比如如果加油泵完全免费，可能会造成混乱之类的。我确定。所以那是最初的构想。然后我们开始寻找其他方式，来缓解现在这么多家庭承受的经济压力。我们发现了这个很棒的组织和机会，可以免除医疗债务，而医疗债务在家庭真正想专注于康复时给他们带来了巨大压力。能和他们合作，帮助加州这么多家庭，真的很棒。其实最疯狂的是——我昨天起了鸡皮疙瘩。我在我们办公室，我们有个小咖啡店。在那里工作的一位女士说：“嘿，你是 Evan 吗？”我说：“是的，我是。”她说：“我想告诉你，我妈妈收到了一封信。”其实她讲西班牙语，所以她让我帮她翻译那封信，内容是关于你们家帮她免除了医疗债务。我说：“妈，我就在那儿工作。”那真的是一个很美好的时刻，很特别。

And so we started researching how to buy gas for Angelenos in very large quantities and talked to the people who own a lot of the big gas stations, this sort of thing. And it turned out that was actually quite a difficult thing to do. And there were some concerns around, you know, if the gas pump is just free, that it could create chaos or something like that. I'm sure. So that was the original concept. And then we started looking at other ways we could just alleviate this financial stress that so many families are under right now. And we found this amazing organization and opportunity to relieve medical debt, which puts so much pressure on families when they're really trying to focus on recovery. It's been great to partner with them and to help so many families across California. Actually, the craziest thing—I got chills yesterday. I was at our office and we've got a little coffee shop. One of the women that was working there was like, "Hey, are you Evan?" I was like, "Yeah, I am." She's like, "I just want to let you know my mom got a letter in the mail." And actually, she speaks Spanish, so she asked me to translate the letter, and it was about your family getting rid of the medical debt. And I said, "Mom, I work there." And it was really a beautiful, just a beautiful moment, and it was special.

是的。我觉得在这个国家人们要面对的所有昂贵开销里，医疗——我相信医疗即使不是第一，也是人们陷入某种破产的最主要原因之一。所以我读到那个的时候就想，这是最酷的事情之一。太棒了。而且如果你们办公室正好有人受到影响，那显然特别触动人心。太了不起了。好，那我们进入快速问答环节。好，快速问答第一题：你最常用的、不是你自己的 App 是什么？

Yeah. I think of all of the different very costly things that people in this country have to deal with, health care is—I believe healthcare is, if not number one, it's one of the top reasons why people go into some kind of bankruptcy. And so, I mean, I read that and I was like, that's one of the coolest things. So, that's awesome. And obviously hits close to home if someone in your office just happened to be impacted by that. So, that's amazing. All right, so we're going to go to a quick lightning round. Okay, lightning round number one: app that you use the most that isn't yours?

我最近又重度用起了 X，部分是因为 Specs 那个梗。因为我其实不算社交媒体重度用户。我在社交媒体上花的时间不多。我主要用 Snapchat。但我有个哥们——其实就是搬到摩纳哥的那个——他说：“兄弟，这整个眼镜的事都疯了。”他一直在用 X。所以他总跟我讲发生了什么，他说：“哦天哪，你得进来看看现在什么情况。”

I've gotten back into X in a big way, partly due to this meme situation with Specs, because I'm not really a big social media person. I just don't spend a lot of time on social media. I mostly use Snapchat. But one of my buddies—actually the guy who moved to Monaco—he was like, "Dude, this whole glasses thing is going crazy." He uses X all the time. So he's always telling me what's going on, and he was like, "Oh man, you got to dive in here and see what's happening."

所以我又回来了，你知道——

And so I got back in, and you know—

你投入进去了。

You leaned in.

是的，我投入了。我心想：“这还挺好玩的。”我是说，那上面有很多讨论。现在我已经有点被算法吸进去了。所以我肯定在 X 上花了更多时间，真的挺好玩。人们在上面分享对各种疯狂事物的看法。

Yeah, I did. And I was like, "This is kind of fun." I mean, there's a lot of conversation happening on there. And now I've kind of been sucked into the algorithm. So I'm definitely spending more time on X and it's really fun. People are sharing their points of view on all sorts of wild things out there.

是的。是的。好。现在你桌上有什么东西，不是电脑，也不是某种 Snap 设备？

Yes. Yes. Okay. What's something outside of your computer or some kind of Snap device that's on your desk right now?

我的桌子简直一团糟。所以如果你看看我的——你大概会担心。你会担心的。完全失控了。是的。就是——而且我喜欢纸。

My desk is like a full disaster. So like, if you looked at my—you'd probably get concerned. You'd be concerned. It's out of control. Yeah. It's just—and I like paper.

有什么事情是你感到乐观的？可以是任何事。

What is something that you're optimistic about? And it can be anything.

你知道吗？我觉得在这么多 AI 末日论之中，我有一个完全不同的观点，我认为它将会带来非常积极的变革。不是说它不会在某些方面造成颠覆，但我看到人们能够快速学习、构建东西和实验的能力，这太赋权了，能活在这个时代真是太令人兴奋了。一生中不会发生很多次巨大的技术变革，而这就是其中之一。所以能够参与其中，看到它如何改变我们的业务、改变世界，我对我们解决真正大问题、用 AI 为更多人创造更好生活的能力非常乐观。我知道这可能成为一个逆势观点，但我很兴奋。

You know what? I think in the midst of so much AI doomerism, I have a totally different point of view, and I think it's going to be really positively transformative. Not to say that it won't be disruptive in some ways, but what I'm seeing people able to do in terms of their ability to learn really quickly and build stuff and experiment is just so empowering, and it's so exciting to be able to live through this period of time. There's not very many huge technological transformations that happen in a lifetime, and this is one of them. And so to be able to be a part of it, to see how it's transforming our business and changing the world, I'm just hugely optimistic on our ability to solve really big problems and create much better lives for way more people with AI. I know it may become a contrarian point of view, but I'm excited.

不，我完全同意你。技术乐观主义者，一路到底。一路到底。好的。你能分享一个你已有的、对你的职业或业务有益的系统吗？它可以是任何方面的系统，生产力、招聘、管理？我知道你刚才把你的桌子描述得有点乱，但我相信你在某个地方有一个好的系统。

No, I'm right there with you. Tech optimist all the way. All the way. Okay. All right. Can you share a system that you have in place that benefits your career or business, and it can really be a system for anything, productivity, hiring, management? I know you just described your desk situation as being a little bit unruly, but I'm sure you have a good system somewhere.

你知道，我非常努力地为我的人生创建了一个仪表盘，帮助我整理所有需要阅读的内容，掌握所有即将到来的会议，并真正给我良好的态势感知，几乎是我工作的驾驶舱，我非常喜欢。但实际上，如果我看对我们业务影响最大的系统，我会说我们的设计会议非常独特，因为它们能够不断产生新的、有趣的、引人注目的想法。这个系统或流程的很大一部分是关于如何为人们创造一个空间，让他们尝试真正狂野的、未成形的初始想法，并以一种实际上富有成效且不会扼杀创造力的方式进行辩论和争论，对吧？因为一旦你对一个想法提供反馈，你几乎是在威胁它的存在，对吧？所以我认为设计会议的过程，真正享受探索新想法的乐趣，并且让这不受威胁，不让它扼杀想法，这很难做到，而这正是我们拥有的、我真正喜欢的系统。

You know, I've worked really hard to create a sort of a dashboard for my life that helps orient everything I need to read and stay on top of all the meetings I have coming up and really gives me good situational awareness, almost the cockpit for my job, which I really like. But actually, if I look at the systems that have made the most impact in our business, I would say our design meetings are very unique in terms of their ability to constantly generate new and interesting and compelling ideas. And so much of that system or process is about how do you create a space for people to try really wild unformed initial ideas and debate them and argue about them in a way that's actually productive and doesn't shut down creativity, right? Because the minute you provide feedback to an idea, you're almost threatening its existence, right? And so I think the process of a design meeting of really having fun exploring a new idea and having that not be threatening, have that not be something that stifles an idea, that's hard to do and that's really like the system that we have that I really enjoy.

好的。我们将以 Jonathan 的听众问题结束。所以，我正在构建一个实体产品，已经进入开发的第三年。Evan，在构建了这么长时间后，你如何保持与公司愿景和使命的联系？我正处于开始失去希望的位置，我很想听到你的一些鼓舞人心的智慧之言。

Okay. All right. We are going to end with a listener question from Jonathan. So I am building a physical product and I'm on year three of development. Evan, how do you stay connected to the company's vision and mission after building for such a long time? I'm in a position where I am starting to lose hope and I'd love to hear some inspirational words of wisdom from you.

哦，Jonathan，坚持住。但首先，构建硬件非常困难。所以，你知道，他听起来像是选择了一个非常艰难的挑战。激励我的并不是对公司愿景或公司本身的依恋。我认为那是其中的一部分，对吧？但每天激励我、启发我的是客户。所以我认为保持与我们的客户、我们的社区、热爱我们产品的人们的紧密联系，你知道，Specs 开发者社区。我们有数十万的增强现实开发者。人们正在为 Specs 构建惊人的东西。你得试试看。但这才是真正激励我的，对吧？所以人们经常问我，'哦，你知道，你如何处理批评？'对吧？你当时在创办 Snapchat。人们在批评它。我说，'当然。'有些人在批评它，但有大量的人使用它并喜欢它，你知道吗？或者你知道，对于 Specs，人们，哦，人们不理解 Specs，是的，但有大量的开发者在使用和喜爱 Specs，并给我们各种惊人的反馈来让它变得更好。所以我认为对我来说，确保继续与我们的客户、我们的社区、使用我们产品的人保持紧密联系，那就是无尽的灵感来源。

Oh, Jonathan, hang in there. But first of all, building hardware is very hard. So, you know, he sounds like he picked a very tough challenge. The thing that motivates me is not so much an attachment to the vision for the company or the company itself. I think that's part of it, right? But what inspires me every day and motivates me every day is the customer. And so I think staying close to our customers, to our community, the people who love our products, you know, the Specs developer community. We've got hundreds of thousands of augmented reality developers. People are building amazing stuff for Specs. You got to try a little bit of it. But that's what really inspires me, right? And so folks often ask me things like, 'Oh, you know, how do you deal with the criticism?' Right? You were starting Snapchat. People were criticizing it. I'm like, 'Sure.' Some people were criticizing it, but there were a ton of people that used it and loved it, you know? Or you know with Specs, people, oh, people don't understand Specs, yeah, but there are tons of developers who are using and loving Specs and giving us all sorts of amazing feedback to make it better. And so I think for me, making sure that just continuing to stay close to our customers, to our community, to the people who use our products, that's where like this just, you know, endless source of inspiration is.

好的，这是一个很好的结束语。Evan，非常感谢你来参加节目。

Okay, that's a great note to end on. Evan, thank you so much for coming on the show.

非常感谢。我真的很感激。

Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.

是的，这真是一次有趣的对话。再次感谢你的到来。

Yeah, this was such a fun conversation. Once again, thanks for coming on.

太棒了。非常感谢邀请我。我很感激。

Awesome. Thanks so much for having me. I appreciate it.

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