为什么打造持久的社交消费产品如此困难

你们有 10 亿月活用户。为什么打造一个持久耐用的社交消费产品这么难？太多消费科技公司只关注产品市场匹配，人们花在思考分发和搞定分发上的时间远远不够。

You guys have a billion monthly active users. Why is it so freaking hard to build a durable lasting social consumer product? So much of consumer technology focuses on drive product market fit. People don't spend nearly enough time thinking about distribution and figuring out distribution.

嗯，我觉得这很有意思，就拿你刚才举的例子来说吧，TikTok 和 Threads，你举了两个搞定了分发的例子。我认为这其实是当今消费科技领域最难解决的问题之一。我们创建 Snapchat 时非常幸运，手机和 App Store 才刚刚起步。所以人们一直在大量下载新应用，他们对尝试新服务非常兴奋。Instagram 大概比 Snapchat 早一年上线。所以当时人们对尝试新应用和新服务有真正的热情。但今天不是这样了。为新想法和新服务获取分发要难得多。人们现在下载的应用没有以前多了。而 TikTok 和 Threads 都搞定了分发，这就是为什么我认为它们是更近期的成功案例。TikTok 是用钱做到的，我其实觉得这很有创新性。他们花了数十亿美元补贴视频市场的两端，对吧？获取用户来看视频，然后付费给创作者制作视频。这样他们就能启动自己的生态系统。至于 Threads，显然他们利用了 Meta 在所有其他产品上的惊人分发能力。所以我认为太多消费科技公司只关注：我是不是在打造正确的产品？我有没有产品市场匹配？我有没有做出真正能引起用户共鸣、让他们一直想用的东西？而我认为人们花在思考和搞定分发上的时间远远不够。这在我看来是一个巨大的差异化因素。所以，回顾 Snapchat 早期的日子，我们在分发方面搞明白的一件事，尤其是在社交方面，就是当时人们相信社交网络存在网络效应，意味着使用服务的人越多，粘性就越强，对吧？所以无法击败最大的网络，因为它们最有价值。而 Snapchat 搞明白的不同之处在于，尽管存在连接更多人的更大网络，真正重要的是把你和正确的人连接起来。所以如果你能把一个人连接起来，不是连接所有朋友，而是连接他们最好的朋友、伴侣、配偶，那些他们最在乎的人，那就是网络中大部分价值的所在。这就是我们在早期能够增长的原因。我们受益于 App Store 和移动分发，但我们也有一种不同的服务增长方式，不是关于拥有最多朋友，而是关于拥有你的亲密朋友。

Well, I think it's really interesting, you know, in terms of the examples that you just shared, right? Of TikTok and Threads, because you just shared two examples of people who figured out distribution. And I think that's actually one of the hardest things to figure out in consumer technology today. We were so fortunate when we created Snapchat, the mobile phone and the App Store were just getting started. So people were downloading lots of new apps all the time. They were really excited about trying new services. Instagram, I think it started a year before Snapchat or something like that. So there was a real appetite to try new apps and new services. And that's not the case today. It's a lot harder to get distribution for new ideas and new services. People aren't downloading as many apps now as they used to. And both TikTok and Threads figured out distribution, which is why I think they're more recent examples of success. TikTok did it with money, which I actually thought was really innovative. They spent billions of dollars subsidizing both sides of their video marketplace, right? Acquiring customers to watch videos and then paying creators to make videos. And so they were able to bootstrap their ecosystem. And I think with Threads, obviously, they were able to leverage the amazing distribution that Meta has across all of their other products. So I think so much of consumer technology focuses on, you know, am I building the right product? Do I have product market fit? Have I built something that's really going to resonate with customers that they're really going to want to use all the time? And I think people don't spend nearly enough time thinking about distribution and figuring out distribution. And that seems to me to be a huge differentiator. So, you know, as I reflect on the early days of building Snapchat, the thing that we figured out in terms of distribution, especially when it comes to social, was that, you know, back then people believed that there were network effects in social networks that meant that the more people you had using the service, the stickier it is, right? And so there was no way to beat the biggest networks because those were the most valuable. And what Snapchat figured out that was, I think, different was that, despite the fact that there were much bigger networks that connected more people, what really mattered was connecting you to the right people. And so if you could just connect someone not to all their friends, but to their best friend, to their partner, to their spouse, the people that they cared most about in the world, that's where the majority of the value is in the network. And so that's what really allowed us to grow in those early days. We had the benefit of the App Store and mobile distribution, but we also had a different way of growing our service, which wasn't about having the most friends, it was about having your close friends.

Snap 在创新产出上一直超常发挥，比如 Stories、AR 眼镜、滑动导航。

Like Snap has always been punching above its weight in terms of just how much new stuff comes out of your team. Stories, AR glasses, swipe base navigation.

我们有一个非常非常小的设计团队，他们一直在创新和创造新东西。

We have a very very small design team that is constantly innovating and creating new things.

你加入设计团队的第一天就要展示作品。你一直在做东西。如果你想有一个好主意，你必须有很多主意。

Your first day that you join the design team, you present work. You're making things. If you want to have a good idea, you have to have lots of ideas.

人们抄袭你。作为一个人，看到这种事一再发生，你是什么感受？

People copy you. As a human, how does it feel just to see this consistently happen?

15 年前，我们基本上就学到了软件不是护城河，这一点今天每个人都在 AI 领域重新发现。

15 years ago, we essentially learned that software is not a moat, which is something that everyone is discovering today with AI.

你把即将到来的一年描述为关键时刻。这是一个真正的转折点。

You describe this coming year as the crucible moment. It's a real turning point.

我们身处一个行业，其中大量讨论都聚焦于技术，但人性要重要得多。因为人性决定了技术如何被采用。技术领导者认为人们会盲目地接受任何新出现的技术。但即将到来的 AI 变革会遭遇巨大的社会阻力。

We're in an industry where so much of the conversation is focused on technology, humanity is far more important. Because humanity dictates how technology is adopted. Technology leaders think that folks will just blindly adopt new technology as it comes out. There's going to be a huge amount of societal pushback on a lot of the changes that are coming with AI.

今天的嘉宾是 Evan Spiegel，Snap 的 CEO 兼联合创始人。Evan 是世界上极少数成功打造并规模化持久消费社交应用的人之一。在 Snapchat 上线后的 15 年里，几乎没有新的社交消费应用出现并存活下来。Snapchat 拥有超过 10 亿月活用户，年营收超过 60 亿美元。用户每天在 Snapchat 上发布超过 80 亿张 AR 镜头照片。多年来，Evan 和他的团队发明了 Stories 的概念，推出了市场上第一款 AR 眼镜产品，发明了滑动导航、以相机为核心，还有当年的换脸、变老特效等等，这些都被整个行业抄袭。如果这真的是消费产品的黄金时代——就像很多人说 AI 将带来的那样——那么我们可以从 Evan 和他的团队如何思考、运作并持续创新中学到很多。这是一次罕见的播客访谈，我们聊了很多内容。在开始之前，别忘了访问 Lenny's Product Pass .com，可以免费一年使用全球最热门、最精良的 AI 产品，仅限 Lenny's Newsletter 订阅者。那么，有请 Evan Spiegel。Evan，非常感谢你来做客，欢迎来到播客。

Today my guest is Evan Spiegel, CEO and co-founder of Snap. Evan is one of the very few humans in the world who has successfully built and scaled a lasting consumer social app. In the 15 years since Snapchat launched, there are essentially zero social consumer apps that have launched and stuck around. Snapchat has over 1 billion monthly active users, is generating over $6 billion a year in revenue. People post over 8 billion AR lens photos a day on Snapchat. And over the years, Evan and his team have invented the concept of stories. They had the first AR glasses product in the market. They invented swipe base navigation, the camera being primary. And also back in the day, face swapping, making people look older, and so many of the things that are just copied throughout the entire industry. If this is truly the golden age of consumer products, like many people say AI is going to enable, there's a lot that we can learn about how Evan and his team think and operate and are able to continue innovating. This is a rare podcast interview with Evan and we cover a lot of ground. Before we get into it, don't forget to check out Lenny's Product Pass .com for a year free of the hottest and most well-crafted AI products in the world available exclusively to Lenny's Newsletter subscribers. With that, I bring you Evan Spiegel. Evan, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.

非常感谢。谢谢邀请。我很期待。

Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. I'm looking forward to it.

如果你想想 AI 进入市场的方式，它最初只是帮助人们自动补全代码。我在这个播客里经常聊这个。所以，先是自动补全代码，然后现在它写我们所有的代码，再然后它审查我们的代码，现在它自己测试代码。接下来它还会帮我们想点子。所以它从产品开发流程的中间开始，然后向外扩展。我觉得它会非常擅长想出好主意和制定策略，就像沿着产品构建的漏斗或时间线向上走。而我觉得分销最终会成为新的护城河和最大的挑战，因为 AI 在这方面帮不了你太多。所以这很有意思，尤其是在消费产品领域更是如此。

If you think about just where AI has come into the market, it started originally just like helping people autocomplete code. It's something I've been talking a lot on this podcast. So, it's like, okay, autocomplete code. Okay, now it's writing all our code. Okay, now it's reviewing our code, and now it's testing itself. And now it's going to help us come up with ideas. So, it's like starting in the middle of the product development process and expanding out. And I feel like it will be very good at coming up with great ideas and developing strategy. Like it's going up the funnel or the timeline of building a product. And I feel like distribution is where it ends up being what ends up being the new moat and the new biggest challenge because AI is not going to really help you there. So, that's really interesting that it's even more so true for consumer products.

我完全同意。我只想说一点，科技领域最激动人心的时刻是当新平台被创造出来的时候，而价值往往就来自那里。想想今天很多大型消费科技公司，它们其实都诞生于移动时代，对吧？无论是 Uber、Snapchat，还是那些早期真正抓住分销机会并在移动端建立起来的公司。所以，当我们展望下一代形态，比如眼镜这样的设备时，将会有一整套全新的机会和全新的界面，让人们去打造一代人的消费公司。我对此非常兴奋。

I think that's absolutely the case. And the only thing I would say is, the most exciting times in technology are when there are new platforms that get created, and that tends to be where a lot of the value comes from. You think about a lot of the big consumer technology companies today, they were really born out of mobile, right? Whether it's Uber, Snapchat, some of those early generation companies that really got distribution and built themselves on mobile. And so, I think as we look forward to these next generation form factors, things like glasses, there's going to be a whole new set of opportunities and a whole new surface for people to build generational consumer companies. And I'm really excited about that.

尤其是如果它们已经有分销渠道的话。感觉这就像……我只是为初创公司担心。获得分销会非常困难，因为每天都有太多东西发布，太多东西需要关注，初创公司很难在现有巨头面前获得任何关注。

Especially if they have distribution already. Feels like that's going to be like I'm just worried for startups. It's going to be very hard to get distribution just like it's there's so much launching every day. So much to pay attention to, and there just feels very hard for a startup to get any attention with existing incumbents.

本期节目由本季赞助商 WorkOS 呈现。OpenAI、Anthropic、Cursor、Vercel、Replit、Sierra、Clay 以及数百家其他成功公司有什么共同点？它们都由 WorkOS 提供支持。如果你正在为企业构建产品，你一定体会过集成单点登录、SCIM、RBAC、审计日志等大型企业所需功能的痛苦。WorkOS 通过一个专为 B2B SaaS 打造的现代开发者平台，将这些交易障碍转化为即插即用的 API。我投资的每一家开始向高端市场扩张的初创公司，最终都会与 WorkOS 合作。这是因为他们是最好的。无论你是试图拿下第一个企业客户的种子轮初创公司，还是正在全球扩张的独角兽，WorkOS 都是让你快速达到企业就绪状态并解锁增长的最快途径。它本质上就是企业功能的 Stripe。请访问 workos.com 开始使用，或者直接加入他们的 Slack，那里有真正的工程师等着回答你的问题。WorkOS 让你通过令人愉悦的 API、全面的文档和流畅的开发者体验来更快地构建。今天就访问 workos.com，让你的应用达到企业就绪。

This episode is brought to you by our season's presenting sponsor WorkOS. What do OpenAI, Anthropic, Cursor, Vercel, Replit, Sierra, Clay, and hundreds of other winning companies all have in common? They are all powered by WorkOS. If you're building a product for the enterprise, you've felt the pain of integrating single sign-on, SCIM, RBAC, audit logs, and other features required by large companies. WorkOS turns those deal blockers into drop-in APIs with a modern developer platform built specifically for B2B SaaS. Literally every startup that I'm an investor in that starts to expand upmarket ends up working with WorkOS. And that's because they are the best. Whether you are a seed-stage startup trying to land your first enterprise customer or a unicorn expanding globally, WorkOS is the fastest path to becoming enterprise-ready and unblocking growth. It's essentially Stripe for enterprise features. Visit workos.com to get started or just hit up their Slack where they have actual engineers waiting to answer your questions. WorkOS allows you to build faster with delightful APIs, comprehensive docs, and a smooth developer experience. Go to workos.com to make your app enterprise-ready today.

关于 Snapchat，有一件事一直让我觉得很有趣：你们这些年来创新太多了。你们基本上发明了所有东西。别人抄袭你们，从中大获收益，看着真是疯狂。我想到几个例子：Stories 是你们创造的；你们在 AR 眼镜上非常早；你们在 Meta 涉足之前就推出了 Spectacles；滑动导航，我觉得是你们开始的；按住拍视频而不是照片的想法。可能还有很多。首先，你觉得下一个会被别人偷走的东西是什么？

Something that has always been really interesting to me about Snapchat is it feels like you guys have just innovated so much over the years. You guys basically just invent all the things. People copy you, benefit greatly from it, and it's just kind of wild to watch. Just a few examples that come to mind: stories, you guys created; you were very early on AR glasses; you launched Spectacles before Meta got into the stuff; swipe-based navigation, I think you guys started; the idea of holding to do a video versus a photo. There's probably a bunch. First of all, what's the next thing someone's going to steal, do you think?

哦，天哪。我刚看到 Instagram Plus 上线了。所以我觉得这是最新的抄袭。那是一个订阅服务。是的，我们 Snapchat Plus 刚刚达到 2500 万订阅用户，营收超过 10 亿美元年化收入。所以我想这足以引起 Meta 的注意，让他们觉得是时候抄袭了。然后他们甚至连“Plus”这个名字都用了。天哪。

Oh, gosh. Well, I just saw Instagram Plus launch. So, I think that's the latest rip. Which is a subscription. Yeah, I think we just hit 25 million subscribers on Snapchat Plus, more than a billion revenue run rate. So, I think probably enough to get Meta's attention that it's a good time to copy. And then they even took the plus as the name. Oh my god.

我就想作为一个人问问你，看到这种事情不断发生在你身上，你是什么感受？你们想出很棒的东西，别人抄袭它，从中大获收益，而你们只能一次又一次地继续这样做。

Let me just ask you as a human, how does it feel just to see this consistently happen to you? You guys come up with something awesome. Someone rips it off, benefits hugely from it, and you just have to keep doing that again and again.

这总比做出没人想抄的东西要好。所以，我认为从很多方面来说，这是一种福气，我们能够持续创新，做出真正能引起人们共鸣的新东西，最终人们会想从 Snap 这里抄袭。所以，这肯定比另一种情况好，但这确实意味着我们必须非常深思熟虑地制定战略。所以，我觉得过去 15 年对我来说是一个有趣的反思期，我一直在思考我们的战略，因为 15 年前我们基本上就学到了软件不是护城河，对吧？而这是今天每个人都在 AI 领域发现的事情，对吧？但 15 年前，因为我们能创造的所有软件功能都太容易被竞争对手克隆了，我们开始思考如何建立更持久的企业，如何建立拥有更大、更有效护城河的企业。我们做的第一件事就是大力建设生态系统，对吧？无论是创作者和 Snapchat 用户之间的关系，还是我们围绕增强现实建立的平台，开发者已经在那里构建了数百万个镜头。所以，复制硬件或软件功能很容易，但复制或复制整个生态系统或平台却非常困难。因此，我们意识到，我们越能在业务周围建立一个平台，越能与创作者和开发者建立一个生态系统，别人就越难直接抄袭。这也影响了很多我们在其他难以复制的领域的投资思考，包括硬件，在那里复制我们围绕增强现实完全垂直整合的堆栈极具挑战性。所以，我相信还有很多可以聊的，但我认为我们很早就学到了软件容易被复制，因此建立更持久的护城河非常重要。

It's certainly better than making stuff that people don't want to copy. So, I think in many ways it's a blessing that we've been able to continue to innovate, to make new things that really resonate with folks, and that ultimately people want to end up copying from Snap. So, I think it certainly beats the alternative, but it does mean that we have to be really thoughtful about our strategy. And so, I think one of the things it's been an interesting time for me to reflect a lot on our strategy over the last 15 years because, 15 years ago we essentially learned that software is not a moat, right? Which is something that everyone is discovering today with AI, right? But 15 years ago, because all the software features we could create were so easily cloned by our competitors, we started to think about how to build a more durable business, how to build a business that had bigger and more effective moats. One of the first things we did was focus a lot on building ecosystems, right? Whether those are the relationships between creators and Snapchatters, whether that's the platform we built around augmented reality where developers have built millions of these lenses. So, it's very easy to copy hardware or software features, it's very hard to copy or replicate a full ecosystem or a platform. And so, we realized that the more we could build a platform around our business, the more we could build an ecosystem with creators and developers, the harder it would be for folks to just copy that. And then it also informed a lot of our thinking about investing in other places that are really hard to copy, including hardware, where it's really challenging to copy our fully vertically integrated stack around augmented reality. So, I'm certain there's a lot more to talk about there, but I think we learned early on that software is easy to copy, and so it's really important to build more durable moats.

听你这么说真的很有意思，我本来打算稍后再谈这个，但我们现在就可以聊聊。

That's really interesting hearing this from you, and I was going to get to this later, but we can talk about this now.

你在硬件上投入这么大。你可能会认为网络效应才是护城河，这是大家一直努力追求的东西，因为从经典意义上讲，那是一条很棒的护城河。你是在说网络效应可能没那么好，还是说光有它不够，还需要更多东西，比如硬件？

This big investment you've been putting into hardware. Like, you would think network effects would be the moat. That's what everybody's always trying to get to because that's classically a great moat. Are you saying that that's maybe not even as great a moat, or that's just not enough, and then you need something more like, say, hardware?

我认为网络效应当然是拼图中很重要的一块，但我觉得在面对软件克隆这类问题时，光有它还不够。尽管我们拥有大量专利，保护了所有这些创意，但软件领域的情况是，人们很容易复制或在这些创意之上进行迭代。所以，我认为除了网络效应，真正重要的是努力构建更具防御性的业务，通过打造一个能够支持创作者、开发者与社区之间关系的平台，因为我们发现，这本身极难被复制。

I think network effects are certainly an important piece of the puzzle for sure, but I don't think they're enough when it comes to these sorts of software cloning. And so, despite the fact that we've got a ton of patents, and we protected all these ideas, the way that it works in software is that it's quite easy for folks to copy or iterate on top of these ideas. And so, I think in addition to network effects, it's really important to try to build businesses that are more defensible by truly building out a platform that can support relationships between creators, developers, and the community because that in and of itself we found is incredibly difficult to copy.

这太有意思了。想想看，你同时在攻克两种最难做的生意：消费级社交平台和硬件。我很欣赏你这么做。你在硬件上的投入已经持续很久了。之前有 Spectacles，还有无人机。大家可能不记得你还有过一款能给你拍照的无人机。然后现在 Specs 要推出了。顺便问一下，今天推出的产品叫 Specs 还是 Spectacles？

That's so interesting. Like, if you think about it, you're working on two of the hardest types of businesses. Like, consumer social platform and hardware. And I love that you're doing that. And this hardware investment you've been at it for a long time. There you had Spectacles, you had drones. I don't think people remember you had this drone that could take photos of you. And then you have Specs coming out. Is it Specs or Spectacles the name of what's coming out today, by the way?

Specs 今年推出。

Specs is coming out this year.

好的，酷。我们待会儿会聊到它，但也许你已经回答了为什么你对这件事如此热衷，不过为什么要在硬件上持续投入呢？

Okay, cool. We're going to talk about it, but just maybe you've already answered it why this is something you're so passionate about, but why this kind of ongoing investment in hardware?

嗯，退一步说，我热爱计算机。我从小就在用计算机，中学时自己组装了一台。我迷上了平面设计，每个午餐时间都泡在计算机实验室。我注意到计算机——以及现在的手机——在很多方面让我们彼此隔绝。它们实际上把我们带离了社交互动。它们把我从课间操场上拉走，塞进了计算机实验室。看看我们 15 岁的孩子和他的朋友们，有时候他们聚在一起，却都低头看手机，即使他们就在一起。所以，我认为有很大的机会去打造真正能让我们聚在一起、让我们扎根于现实世界，而不是将我们抽离出来的技术。这是我们在 Snapchat 早期就意识到的。我们创新，构建增强现实中的镜头，但最终我们看到人们是在那些小小的手机屏幕上使用 AR，需要用拇指来交互。这几乎就像透过钥匙孔看世界，而不是真正扎根并能够与朋友一起互动。这看起来太明显了：随着计算机在我们生活中扮演越来越大的角色——我想现在人们平均每天花 7 到 8 个小时在屏幕上——必须有所改变，让这项技术更好地融入我们的生活。我们从计算机中获得了巨大价值，但同时我认为代价也相当大。它们需要进化。所以，对于早期版本的 Spectacles，我想那大概是 2014 年左右，最初的想法只是把摄像头从手机上拿下来，从口袋里拿出来，让你更容易地在外面拍照。但我们随后从那里构建了一个路线图：我们增加了第二个摄像头来获取深度，增加了一个显示屏来将数字对象叠加到世界中，并帮助你与之交互。然后在 2024 年的上一代产品中，我们发布了我们的操作系统，现在允许开发者在 Specs 内部构建全功能软件，为消费者发布做准备。所以，我不知道。我认为现在是时候出现一种新型计算机了。我认为人们对今天使用手机和计算机的代价感到沮丧。他们全都像小魔怪一样弓着背。我们可以构建一种新的计算机。我们已经构建了一种新的计算机，它能把人们带到户外，帮助他们与朋友连接，解放他们的双手去与世界互动。这对我来说非常令人兴奋。我认为这是一个全新的篇章。而且，天哪，距离 iPhone 已经 20 年左右了。所以，我想是时候有新东西了。

Well, to take a huge step back, I love computers. I grew up using computers all the time. I built my own computer when I was in middle school. I fell in love with graphic design, and would spend every lunch period in the computer lab. And I think one of the things that I noticed about computers and I think today with mobile phones, is that in many ways they isolate us from one another. They actually take us out of our social interactions. They took me off the playground at recess and put me into the computer lab. If I look at our 15-year-old today and his friends, sometimes when they're hanging out, they're all looking down at their phones, even though they're all together. And so, I think there's such a big opportunity to build technology that actually brings us together, that keeps us grounded in the real world, rather than removing us from it. And that's something that we realized early on with Snapchat. We were innovating, building lenses in augmented reality, but ultimately we saw that people were using AR on these tiny little phone screens, which required you to use your thumbs to interact. It's almost like interacting with the world through a keyhole, rather than actually staying grounded and being able to interact together with friends. It just seems so obvious that as computers play a bigger and bigger role in our lives — I think today people spend 7 or 8 hours a day on average on screens — something has got to change to make this technology fit better into our lives. We get enormous value from computers, but at the same time I think the cost is quite meaningful. And they need to evolve. So, with the early version of Spectacles, I guess that was back in 2014 or something like that, the initial idea was just to get the camera off the phone, out of your pocket and allow you to more easily take snaps out in the world. But we then built a road map from there, where we added a second camera to get depth, we added a display to be able to overlay digital objects into the world and help you interact with them. And then with the last generation in 2024, we released our operating system, which now allows developers to build full-featured software inside of Specs, in preparation for the consumer launch. So, I don't know. I think the time is right for a new type of computer. I think people are frustrated with the cost of using phones and computers today. They're kind of all hunched over like Gremlins. And we can build a new computer. We have built a new computer that brings people outside, that helps them connect together with their friends, that frees them up to actually use their hands to interact with the world. And that to me is really exciting. I think it's a whole new chapter. And, gosh, it's been 20 years or something since the iPhone. So, it's about time for something new, I think.

我提前体验了 Specs，它非常酷。我学会了怎么当御气师。我在家里到处放植物，到处画画。还有多人互动功能，这非常酷，我想这也是它理念的一部分，对吧？就是让你和别人连接，而不是独自坐在 VR 环境里。我担心的是那种一直在线的情况。所以我想这是我们得解决的新问题。我们怎样才能不只是沉迷于从旁边看东西，而不是看着眼前的人？你有什么想法吗？除了社会规范之外，还有其他解决方案吗？

So, I got an early preview of the Specs, and it's extremely cool. I learned how to be an airbender. I put plants all over my house, drawing all over the place. And there are multiplayer features, which is very cool, which I think is part of the idea, right? Is you're connecting with people versus sitting in a VR environment on your own. Like, I worry about that being connected all the time. So, I imagine that's like a new thing we have to figure out. How do we not just get hooked on just watching things out of the side instead of looking at something we're with? Do you have any thoughts there? Just like, is there a solution to that other than just like social norms?

我确实认为社会规范会发挥很大作用。但我也认为，人们在 AR 中体验到的——Specs 不同于平视显示器眼镜，它们不会在眼镜上贴一个烦人的小屏幕。它们实际上将内容锚定在现实世界中，这非常不同。它们将内容直接放在你的视野中，而不是要求你低头看某个小屏幕或接收文字提醒或通知。所以，坦白说，我认为那些用例并不吸引人。我觉得在脸上接收手机通知对大多数人来说并不是一个有价值的提议。所以，我认为我们不一定需要担心那个问题，因为我认为大多数人并不想要那样。我认为 Specs 真正重要的是向人们展示所有不可思议的新方式，让他们戴着 Specs 与朋友一起出去玩和连接。

I do think social norms will play a big role. But, I also think one of the things people experience with AR, Specs, unlike heads-up display glasses, they don't just put an annoying little screen that's stuck to your face on the glasses. They actually anchor content in the world, which is really different. They put that content directly in your field of view rather than requiring you to look down at some little screen or get some text alert or notification. So, I think, frankly, I don't think those use cases are very compelling. Like, I don't think receiving phone notifications on your face is a valuable proposition for most folks. So, I don't think we necessarily have to worry about that because I think most people don't want that. I think what is going to be really important with Specs is showing people all the incredible new ways they can hang out and connect together with their friends wearing Specs.

我不认为它会具有破坏性，或者基于通知之类的东西。我非常不喜欢平视显示眼镜的一点是，当你看着角落里的那个小平视显示器时，如果你查看它，你实际上是在看着你朋友的裤裆，而你在和他们说话。所以这个位置非常奇怪，我不认为这能引起顾客的共鸣，也不认为这将成为一种广泛的行为。

I don't think it'll be disruptive or notification based or something like that. One of the things I really dislike about heads-up display glasses is when you're looking at the little heads-up display in the corner, you're actually looking at your friend's crotch while you're talking to them if you check the heads-up display. So the position is just very strange and I don't think that that's something that is really resonating with customers nor do I think that's something that's going to become a widespread behavior.

我想回到如何创新这个话题。我觉得 Snap 一直在以小博大，你们的团队产出了那么多新东西。考虑到公司的规模和历史，你们发明了那么多东西。你认为创新需要什么条件？你做了什么让所有这些好主意涌现出来？

I want to go back to this idea of how to innovate. I feel like Snap has always been punching above its weight in terms of how much new stuff comes out of your team. How many inventions happen considering the size of the company and the history. What do you find needs to be true for innovation to happen? What do you do to allow for all these great ideas to emerge?

最好的学术概述或总结来自 Safi Bahcall，他写了一本书叫《Loonshots》。非常值得一读。它全是关于创新过程的，当我读它时，我想，‘哦天哪，这解释了很多我们在 Snap 对创新的看法。’总结他的发现：如果你想大规模交付产品，通常需要一个大型组织。大型组织需要层级和结构，大量的运营严谨性。一旦你有了一个非常庞大且结构化的组织，人们就会变得非常专注于升职，进入层级的下一个台阶。这意味着他们变得更加规避风险，不太愿意尝试新事物，非常专注于实现运营层级中为他们设定的目标。这使得创新变得非常困难。另一方面，对创新健康且富有建设性的结构通常非常扁平。例如，我们的设计团队就是如此，没有人有更花哨的头衔或角色。有很大的灵活性去尝试新事物、快速失败并提出疯狂的想法。他发现，非常成功的公司实际上在公司内部同时拥有这两种组织。领导者负责在两者之间建立健康、运作良好的关系。因为在很多公司，最终发生的情况是，小型创新团队批评大型组织——‘哦，他们太官僚、太慢了，他们不创新’——然后大型组织就会说，‘这些家伙在干什么？他们并没有真正推动业务，没有支持我们的客户。’所以很多紧张关系源于不同的组织结构。领导责任，Safi 在历史上很好地观察了领导者如何培养创新扁平部分和结构化层级部分之间建设性和强大的关系。如何创造相互尊重和对话是至关重要的。当我读到那本书时，我想，‘哇，这听起来和我们 Snap 的情况非常相似。’我们必须运营一家大型上市公司，服务近十亿客户。这意味着我们的服务需要非常可靠，我们需要高效运营来服务客户。同时，我们有一个非常小的设计团队——大约在 9 到 12 人之间——他们不断创新和创造新事物。我喜欢 Snap 的美妙之处在于，这两个团队之间的对话是很多创新发生的地方。我们很多致力于服务客户或可靠性的工程师有很多好主意，我们的设计师也是。只要他们保持对话，真正伟大的事情就会发生。

The best academic overview or summary comes from a guy named Safi Bahcall who wrote a book called Loonshots. It's really worth reading. It's all about the innovation process and when I read it, I thought, 'Oh my gosh, that explains a lot of how we think about innovation at Snap.' To summarize his findings: if you want to deliver a product at scale, you usually need a large organization. A large organization needs hierarchy and structure, a lot of operational rigor. As soon as you have an organization that's very large and structured, people become very focused on getting a promotion, getting to the next step of the hierarchy. That means they become a lot more risk-averse, not as willing to try new things, very focused on achieving the goals set for them in this operational hierarchy. That makes it very challenging to innovate. On the flip side, structures that are healthy and constructive for innovation are typically very flat. That's the same for our design team, for example, where no one has a fancier title or role. There's a lot of flexibility to try new things and fail quickly and put up crazy ideas. What he finds is that companies that are very successful actually have both types of organizations inside their company. The leaders are responsible for creating a healthy, functioning relationship between the two types. Because what ends up happening in a lot of companies is that the small innovative team becomes critical of the large organization—'Oh, they're so bureaucratic and slow, they don't innovate'—and then the large organization is like, 'What are these jokers doing? They're not really driving the business, not supporting our customers.' So a lot of tension arises from the different organizational structures. The leadership responsibility, and Safi does a good job looking throughout history at what leaders have cultivated in constructive and powerful relationships between the innovative flat parts and the structured hierarchical parts. How you create mutual respect and dialogue between those parts is so important. When I read that, I thought, 'Wow, that sounds quite similar to what we have at Snap.' We have to run a large public company, serve almost a billion customers. That means our service needs to be really reliable, and we need to operate effectively to serve our customers. At the same time, we have a very small design team—it oscillates between nine and 12 people—that is constantly innovating and creating new things. The beauty of what I love about Snap is that the dialogue between those two teams is where a lot of that innovation happens. A lot of our engineers working to serve our customers or working on reliability have a bunch of great ideas, and so do our designers. As long as they're in dialogue, really great things can happen.

有人，我忘了是谁，把这种方法描述为组织的快速思考和慢速思考部分，有点像 Kahneman 的系统一、系统二方法。这很有趣，快速移动的部分。你怎么称呼这个创新团队？你们有没有给这个‘让我们想出新点子’的组织部分贴个标签？

There's someone, I forget who, but they described this approach as the fast thinking and slow thinking part of the organization, kind of like Kahneman's system one, system two approach. It's interesting, the fast moving, let's say. What do you call this innovation team? Do you have a label for this 'let's come up with new ideas' part of the org?

嗯，我认为认识到新想法来自各处并且我们想要这一点非常重要，但我认为特别是设计团队，我们称它为设计团队非常重要。他们有一个扁平、非层级化的结构，新想法可以来自任何地方，这一点非常重要。我认为这绝对至关重要。

Well, I think it's really important to acknowledge that new ideas come from everywhere and we want that, but I think the design team in particular, it's really important we call it the design team. It's really important that they have a flat, non-hierarchical structure where new ideas can come from anywhere. I think that is absolutely critical.

那么，就你们如何运作这一点而言，你看到的创新的关键就是这个特定的、可以工作的小型设计团队吗？谈谈你们实际上是如何运作这种工作方式的。

So, in terms of how you operationalize this, is that the key to the innovation you've seen as this specific small design team who can work? Talk about just how you actually operationalize this sort of way of working.

是的，我认为这是其中的重要部分，但我们构建 Snap 的很多方式实际上是模仿了我和 Bobby 最初的关系。Bobby 有计算机科学和统计背景，非常扎实的计算机科学和数学计算科学背景，但他真的很喜欢设计，喜欢思考为客户构建东西并与之共情。我有设计背景——我在学校读的是产品设计专业，当时属于机械工程系。我上过一些计算机科学课程，所以在计算机科学方面我算是懂一些。所以我们互相尊重彼此的技能和背景，并且都喜欢一起讨论我们想要创造的产品类型。这种对话创造了很多创新。

Yeah, I think it's an important part of it, but a lot of how we built Snap was modeled actually on mine and Bobby's original relationship. Bobby has a computer science and stats background, heavy duty computer science and mathematical and computational science, but he really likes design and likes thinking about building things for customers and empathizing with them. I have a design background—I was in the product design program at school, which was part of the mechanical engineering department at the time. I took some computer science classes, so I kind of knew what I was talking about when it came to computer science. So we both had mutual respect for each other and our skill sets and backgrounds, and both enjoyed talking together about the types of products we wanted to create. That dialogue created a lot of innovation.

长期以来，我们思考如何发展公司的一个核心，就是加强工程师与设计师之间的对话，创造一个让人们敢于抛出疯狂想法的环境。对设计团队来说，最重要的就是设计工作的速度。我每周都会和设计师们开几个小时的会，专门看作品。每周都有新作品，每周都有几百个想法。如果回想我是从哪里学会设计和建造东西的，我的经历挺特别的。我去了斯坦福的产品设计项目，那个项目非常强调同理心，是一个理解人们需求、制作原型、迭代的循环过程，核心是以人为本的设计。同时，我也上过艺术学校。我在洛杉矶的艺术中心设计学院和奥蒂斯艺术学院都学习过，都是很棒的艺术院校。我习惯了那种不断创作新作品的严苛要求，以及定期接受极其残酷的批评过程。我教育经历中真正喜欢的部分，就是这种结合：一方面培养对人们及其想要的产品类型的同理心，另一方面保持极高的工作速度——你不是一直在想新产品，而是每周都在实际制作东西，然后团队一起讨论。那个批评过程才是学习发生的地方。工作速度非常重要，因为我们最喜欢的一句话是：如果你想有一个好主意，你必须有很多主意。

A lot of how we've thought about growing the company over time is strengthening that dialogue between engineers and designers and creating an environment where folks feel comfortable throwing out really crazy ideas. For the design team in particular, the most important thing is the velocity of design work. I typically meet with our designers for a couple hours every week and we just look at work. New work every week, hundreds of ideas on a weekly basis. If I think about where I learned how to design and build things, I have an interesting combination. I went to Stanford for the product design program, which is really focused on empathy, an iterative process of understanding what people want, building prototypes, and iterating, centered on human-centered design. At the same time, I'd also been to art school. I studied at Art Center and Otis here in Los Angeles, both great art schools. I was used to this grinding expectation that you're making new work all the time and then an absolutely brutal critique process on a regular basis. The parts of my education that I really liked were this combination of developing empathy with people and what types of products they want in their lives, but at the same time having this high velocity work ethic where you're not just thinking about new products, you're actually making stuff every week and then talking about it as a team. That critique process is where so much of the learning happens. The velocity of work is really important because our favorite saying is: if you want to have a good idea, you have to have lots of ideas.

我刚刚在播客里采访了 Keith Rabois。他有很多反主流观点。其中一个就是：如果你在做消费产品，不要和客户交流。他的建议是，这不仅没用，而且有害，因为它会渗透到你的潜意识里，不会带来好东西。你怎么看？

I just had Keith Rabois on the podcast. He has many contrarian takes. One is if you're building a consumer product, do not talk to customers. Not only is it not useful, his advice is it's harmful because it can infiltrate your subconscious and it just doesn't lead to great things. What's your perspective on that?

哇，这真有意思。我得说，你必须和客户交流。你必须分享你的想法。你应该尽可能快、尽可能频繁地分享你的想法。这并不意味着你要采纳别人的建议或反馈，但倾听非常重要。对我来说，不是那种问卷调查式的倾听，我觉得那没什么用。但深入地和一个人聊一两个小时，了解他们如何使用技术，技术如何融入他们的生活，他们对正在使用的产品有什么感受——你能学到太多东西。在打造产品时，客户是无穷无尽的灵感来源。

Wow, that's really interesting. I would say you have to talk to customers. You have to share your idea. You should share your ideas as quickly as possible, as frequently as possible. It doesn't mean you need to take people's advice or feedback, but it's really important to listen. For me, it's not the survey model of listening. I don't think that's particularly helpful. But going deep and talking with someone for an hour or two hours about how they use technology, how it fits in their lives, how they feel about the products they're using — you can learn so much. Customers are an endless source of inspiration when it comes to building products.

所以你是支持跟用户交流的，因为我觉得你一直很擅长说“这就是它该有的样子，这就是它该怎么做”。即使人们可能不理解这就是它该有的样子，但相信我，它会很好用。这种平衡怎么把握，就是“哪些我会关注，哪些我不会”？

So you're pro talking to users, because I feel like you've been really good at just saying 'here's what it'll be and here's how it should be.' Even though people may not understand this is what it should be, trust me, it'll work really well. What's that balance of just like 'here's how much I'll pay attention to, here's what I won't'?

我们以 Stories 为例吧。当时，我们一直听到用户说：“我想要一个‘全部发送’按钮。在 Snapchat 上逐个选择好友列表太烦人了。如果你给我一个‘全部发送’按钮，我就可以整天把快照群发给所有人，那就太棒了。”与此同时，我们在和人们聊他们使用社交媒体的感受。他们说：“天哪，社交媒体让我压力很大。我发上去的东西都是永久存在的。还有那么多点赞和评论，全是评判。我觉得我只能发那些完美无瑕的东西。我不喜欢那种压力，感觉不好。我真的很喜欢 Snapchat 让我可以自由表达自己，和朋友们分享，没有那种评判和压力。”所以我们觉得这很有意思。我们深入研究了人们如何使用社交媒体。我们发现，他们觉得特别奇怪的一点是，信息流里所有内容都是按时间倒序排列的。以前的动态消息——当人们发照片时，他们总是发现生日派对的结尾先出现在信息流里，然后是中间，然后是开头。所以一切在信息流里都是倒着播放的，这对人们来说非常奇怪。我们听到了所有这些，但随后我们想出了全新的、不同的东西，那就是 Stories。它们对反馈做出了回应。我们没有做一个“全部发送”按钮，但我们创造了一种方式，让你可以轻松地和所有朋友分享，又不会整天骚扰他们。我们去掉了公开的指标——没有点赞和评论，以减轻压力。它们会在 24 小时后消失，这样每个人第二天都可以重新开始。也许最重要的是，它们是按时间顺序排列的，这是人类自诞生以来讲故事的方式。这就是一个例子，说明倾听是多么有价值。我们从倾听中获得的那些洞察，在产品设计过程中产生了巨大影响，但我们并没有完全按照他们要求的去做。我们共情了，然后想出了新东西。

Let's use Stories as an example. Back then, we were hearing from customers all the time: 'I want a send all button. It's so annoying to select everybody on my list of friends in Snapchat. If you just give me a send all button, then I can blast snaps to everybody all day long and that'd be really great.' At the same time, we were talking to people about their use of social media. They'd say, 'Oh gosh, social media, I feel all this pressure. Everything I put up there is permanent all the time. It's got all these likes and comments, so there's all this judgment. I only feel like I can put pretty imperfect things up there. I just don't like that pressure. That doesn't feel good. I actually love the way that Snapchat allows me to just express myself and share with my friends without that judgment and pressure.' So we thought that was really interesting. We dug deeper into how people were using social media. We found that one of the things they thought was really weird was that everything was in reverse chronological order in the feed. The timeline back in the day — when people posted photos, they would always find that the end of the birthday party appeared first in the feed, then the middle, then the beginning. So everything was played in reverse in the feed, which was really strange to folks. We listened to all of that, but then we came up with something totally new and different, which were Stories. They were responsive to the feedback. They didn't create a send to all button, but they did create a way to easily share with all of your friends without spamming them all day long. They removed public metrics — they didn't have likes and comments to reduce pressure. They disappeared after 24 hours so that everyone could start the day fresh again the next day. And maybe most importantly, they were in chronological order, which is the way that people have told stories since the beginning of time. That's an example where listening is incredibly valuable. All of those insights we received just from listening to folks made a huge difference in the product design process, but we didn't build exactly what they asked for. We empathized and then came up with something new.

有没有一个瞬间让你觉得“这就是故事这个概念该有的样子”，还是说它是一个非常渐进的演变过程？

Was there a moment of just 'this is the way this story concept' that you remember, or was it a very gradual evolution?

这是一个迭代的过程。早期的一些想法更多是围绕状态更新——即使你没有和好友来回发快照，你如何知道他们在 Snapchat 上做什么？所以它大致是从那里开始的，然后通过与人交流、迭代，理解人们真正想要什么，我们最终做出了 Stories。如今人们可能认为理所当然的一些手势——能够向前点击浏览 Stories、向后点击、全屏、竖屏内容——这些在当时都是全新的东西。

It was iterative. Some of the early ideas started more around a status update—how could you know what your friends on Snapchat were up to even if you weren't sending snaps back and forth? So it sort of started there, and then through talking to people and iterating, understanding what folks were really looking for, we ended up with Stories. Some of the gestures that people maybe take for granted today—being able to tap forward through Stories and backwards, full screen, vertical content—those were all really new things at the time.

还有没有另一个关于你们构建的东西的有趣故事，以及它是如何诞生的？这些故事太有趣了，人们不知道这些历史。

Is there another story of something that y'all built that was interesting and how it came to be? These stories are so interesting and people don't know these histories.

我最喜欢的故事之一是早期的截图检测。当我们最初构建 Snapchat 并告诉人们“你可以发送消失的照片”时，每个人都说：“不，你不能。你总是可以截屏。你说可以发送消失的东西是什么意思？这说不通。”所以我们思考了很多。我记得那个夏天放学后，我们回家，在我爸爸的房子里工作，鲍比和我反复讨论。我们使用产品很开心，来回发送照片，但人们总是说：“嗯，这跟消失的照片没关系，因为你可以直接保存它们。我不明白。”我们发明的一件事是：我们意识到，如果你按住打开一个快照，手指留在屏幕上，然后截屏，它基本上会触发手机上的一个事件，让手机报告你的手指失去了与屏幕的接触。这就是截屏机制的作用。所以即使苹果当时没有提供 API 让你知道截屏被拍了，我们也有办法检测到这个触摸事件来得知截屏发生了，然后我们会向发送者发送通知，告知接收者截了屏。这在早期引起了社区的强烈共鸣，因为他们不介意别人保存他们的快照，他们只是想知道。那个早期发明是获得大量关注的第一批东西之一，并帮助 Snapchat 作为一种新的沟通方式传播开来。

One of my favorite stories was around screenshot detection in the early days. When we first built Snapchat and shared with people, 'Oh, you can send photos to disappear,' everyone said, 'No, you can't. You can always take a screenshot. What do you mean, you can send things to disappear? That makes no sense.' So we thought a lot. I remember that summer after school, we went home, working at my dad's house, and Bobby and I were going back and forth. We were having fun using the product, sending photos back and forth, but people would keep saying, 'Well, this isn't about disappearing photos because you can just save them. I don't get it.' One of the things we invented: we realized that if you were pressing and holding to open a snap and left your finger on the screen and took a screenshot, it would basically trigger an event on the phone that made the phone report that your finger had lost contact with the screen. That's what the screenshot mechanism did. So even though Apple didn't provide an API at the time to let you know a screenshot had been taken, there was a way for us to detect this touch event to learn that a screenshot had happened, and then we would send a notification back to the sender that the recipient had taken a screenshot. That in the early days really resonated with our community because they didn't mind if somebody saved one of their snaps; they just wanted to know. That early invention was one of the first things that got a lot of traction and helped Snapchat spread as a new way of communicating.

那真的很酷。我无法想象没有你解决这个问题 Snapchat 会存在。这感觉像是一个核心机制。在 PM 社区中，关于 Snap 还有一件非常有名的事情是你们等了很久才招聘产品经理。我做过研究报告，关于顶级公司花了多久才招聘他们的 PM，我看到的数据是你们在招聘第一个 PM 之前已经有了 200 名员工。我很好奇你是否认为等那么久是个错误，以及你目前对产品经理的看法，以及他们如何融入 Snap。很多听众是 PM，所以我很好奇你的感受。

That is really cool. I can't imagine Snapchat existing without you figuring that out. That feels like such a core mechanic. Something that is also really famous in the PM community about Snap is you guys waited a long time to hire product managers. I've done research reports on how long it took top companies to hire their PMs, and the number I saw is you had 200 employees before you hired your first PM. I'm curious if you think that was a mistake waiting that long, and just your current thoughts on product managers and how they fit into Snap. A lot of people listening are PMs, so I'm curious how you feel.

我对产品管理的很多看法是由我对设计师以及他们应该扮演的角色的看法驱动的。我在科技界担心的一件事是，在传统的科技组织架构中，设计师实际上是在制作视觉效果，而不是产品方向、战略、愿景或全新的创新。他们在很多情况下是对 PM 说“这是我们要构建的东西，现在去给我做视觉效果”的回应。我绝对不希望那种文化扎根。我们在很大程度上将产品开发方式建模在我和鲍比早期的关系上——设计与工程之间的和谐关系，以及这种对话对构建伟大产品的重要性。所以在早期，我的观点不是我们不需要 PM；我的观点是设计师应该做那份工作。我们会告诉设计师：“如果你需要 PM 支持，为什么不自己做呢？有什么大不了的？”这确实帮助设计师在产品开发过程中发挥了更积极的作用。如今，在我们这种规模的公司，考虑到法律要求、信任与安全，推出一个新产品需要很多人的努力。产品经理在其中扮演着非常重要的协调角色，此外还要综合数据科学分析，召集工作组来解决问题或创新。随着组织的发展，获得了早期没有的能力，比如数据科学，产品经理在召集所有这些人并确保我们在正确的时间交付正确的东西方面发挥着非常重要的作用。

A lot of my view of product management was driven by my view of designers and the role they should play. One thing I was concerned about in the tech community is that in a traditional tech org structure, designers are really producing visuals, not product direction or strategy or vision or net new innovation. They're responsive in many cases to the PM saying, 'This is what we're building. Now go make me some visuals.' I absolutely did not want that culture to take root. We modeled a lot of how we develop products on that early relationship between myself and Bobby—this harmonious relationship between design and engineering, and how important that dialogue is to building great products. So in the early days, my view was not that we don't need PMs; my view was that designers should do that work. We would say to our designers, 'If you need PM support, why don't you just do it yourself? What's the big deal?' That really helped designers play a more active role in the product development process. Today, at a company operating at our scale, with legal requirements, trust and safety, it takes a village to get a new product off the ground. Product managers play a really important coordination role in all that, in addition to synthesizing data science analysis and bringing together the working group to solve problems or innovate. As the organization grows and gains capabilities like data science that it didn't have in the early days, product managers play a really important role in bringing all those folks to the table and making sure we deliver the right thing at the right time.

我非常兴奋地向你介绍本季的支持赞助商 Vanta。Vanta 帮助超过 15,000 家公司（如 Cursor、Ramp、Duolingo、Snowflake 和 Atlassian）赢得并证明客户的信任。得益于 AI，团队比以往任何时候都更快地构建和交付产品。但结果是，引入产品和业务的风险比以往任何时候都高。我交谈过的每一位安全负责人都感受到保护组织、业务以及客户数据的日益沉重的压力。因为事情发展太快，他们不断被动应对，不得不猜测优先级，并凑合使用过时的解决方案。Vanta 通过超过 35 个安全和隐私框架（包括 SOC 2、ISO 27001 和 HIPAA）自动化合规和风险管理。这帮助公司快速合规并保持合规。

I am so excited to tell you about this season's supporting sponsor, Vanta. Vanta helps over 15,000 companies, like Cursor, Ramp, Duolingo, Snowflake, and Atlassian, earn and prove trust with their customers. Teams are building and shipping products faster than ever, thanks to AI. But as a result, the amount of risk being introduced into your product and your business is higher than it's ever been. Every security leader that I talk to is feeling the increasing weight of protecting their organization, their business, and not to mention their customer data. Because things are moving so fast, they are constantly reacting, having to guess at priorities, and having to make do with outdated solutions. Vanta automates compliance and risk management with over 35 security and privacy frameworks, including SOC 2, ISO 27001, and HIPAA. This helps companies get compliant fast and stay compliant.

信任比以往任何时候都更能成就或摧毁你的业务。前往 Vanta.com/lenny 了解更多。作为本播客的听众，你可以获得 Vanta 的 1000 美元优惠。网址是 Vanta.com/lenny。

More than ever before, trust has the power to make or break your business. Learn more at Vanta.com/lenny. And as a listener of this podcast, you get $1,000 off Vanta. That's Vanta.com/lenny.

现在每个人都在问一个有趣的问题。Marc Andreessen 上节目时说得很好：目前产品经理、设计师和工程师之间形成了一种三方对峙，每个人都觉得自己才是未来，有了 AI 就不需要其他人了。大家都在想谁会成为……更重要的核心技能是什么？我猜你的感觉是，AI 让设计师变得更强大，所以这更应该是前进的方向。谈谈你认为 AI 赋能人们后，这个三角关系会如何变化。

There's this interesting question that everyone's asking right now. Marc Andreessen put it really well when he was on the pod. There's this kind of three-way standoff right now between PMs, designers, engineers, where they each think they are the future and you don't need the other with AI. And everyone's wondering who's going to... What's the more important core skill? I imagine your sense is now AI makes designers even more powerful. And so this is even more the way to approach. Talk about just how you think this shifts this triad with AI enabling people.

嗯，如果人们真的在搞这种对峙，那听起来非常不健康，这不是好事。但我确实喜欢人们开始以完全不同的方式思考工作。我认为这在当下是必要的。变化的速度非同寻常。我认为，对于设计师来说，能对近十亿 Snapchat 用户产生规模影响是非常有赋能且令人兴奋的，他们觉得这些工具在某种程度上为创意人士创造了公平的竞争环境。

Well, it sounds highly dysfunctional if folks are having that standoff. That is not a good thing. But I do like that people are thinking about doing work really differently. I think that's imperative at this moment of time. The rate of change is extraordinary. I think impact at the scale of almost a billion people using Snapchat is really empowering and exciting for designers who feel like these tools maybe level the playing field to some extent for creative people.

是的，我感觉这还没发生，但因为现在构建变得如此容易，人们都在发布各种“还行”的东西。我觉得设计现在应该迎来它的荣耀时刻，成为那种“好吧，这真的很棒”的差异化因素。我还没感受到这一点，我好奇这是否即将开始发生。

Yeah, what I feel like I don't see this happening yet, but I feel like because now it's so much easier to build, people are shipping all these okay things. And it feels like design should have its moment of glory right now as a differentiator of like, "Okay, this is actually awesome." I haven't felt that yet, and I'm curious if that's what will begin to happen.

嗯，我认为对我们来说，设计实际上一直是公司里的一个瓶颈，这非常重要。让设计批准才能发布是刻意的。有时这确实会惹恼一些人，也确实会拖慢发布流程。有时这意味着，如果你不知道如何与设计良好合作，或者没有把你的想法呈现在设计面前，那么由产品经理或工程师开发的某些真正创新或酷炫的新功能可能无法以应有的速度发布。但这个瓶颈非常重要，因为它带来了连贯的客户体验。我认为你能看到，当一个应用由负责不同页面或体验不同部分的团队构建时，往往缺乏一条真正连贯的主线。对我们 Snap 来说，让设计成为那个瓶颈，帮助管理我们发布的内容、外观以及所有部分如何协同工作，这非常重要。

Well, I think for us design has actually always operated as like a bottleneck at the company, which is incredibly important. It's intentional that things need to be approved by design to ship. And sometimes that really annoys people, and it does slow down the shipping process. Sometimes it means that if you don't know how to work well with design or get your ideas in front of design, some really innovative or cool new thing developed by a PM or an engineer maybe doesn't get shipped as fast as it should. But that bottleneck is really important because that's what results in a cohesive customer experience. I think you can see when an app has been built by teams who are responsible for different pages of the app or different parts of the experience, but there isn't really a cohesive through line. For us at Snap, having design actually be that bottleneck in terms of helping to manage what we're shipping and what it looks like and how it all works together is really important.

这正好引出了我想问你的一个问题：你以深入参与所有正在发生和发布的事情而闻名，你非常贴近像素。我好奇这一点随着时间的推移是如何演变的。你仍然会审视所有即将发布的东西吗？你对创始人必须参与产品的像素和细节有什么看法？

That's a good segue to something I wanted to ask you about, which is you're famously very in the weeds on everything that is going on, all the things that are shipping. You're very close to the pixels. I'm curious how that's evolved for you over time. Like are you still in there looking at everything that's about to ship? And what's your just philosophy on founders having to be involved in the, let's say, the pixels and the details of the product?

首先，这是我喜欢做的事。我喜欢构建东西。我喜欢为我们的社区创造新产品和服务。这是驱动我的动力。我真的很享受这个过程的一部分。所以这对我来说不是工作，而是我真正热爱的事情，并且喜欢和我们的团队一起做。除了在 Snap 与所有优秀的人共事之外，每天早上让我带着微笑醒来、让我雀跃着去上班的原因，就是我深入参与我们正在构建和向社区发布的东西。话虽如此，总有更聪明、更好、更有才华的专家在处理我们正在进行的各种不同事情，但我确实喜欢贴近我们正在创造的东西。我不认为这仅与创始人相关。我认为无论你经营什么类型的公司，或者你在公司中担任什么角色，贴近你的客户、贴近产品以及它如何服务客户，是你可能做的最根本重要的事情。我完全赞同老派的做法：深入一线，与客户交谈，走出去，随时了解你的服务、你的社区、你的团队实际发生的情况。我认为这可能是任何公司领导者能做的最重要的工作——贴近客户，贴近团队。

First and foremost, this is what I love to do. I love building things. I love making new products and services for our community. That is what drives me. I really enjoy that part of the process. So it's not work to me. It's something that I really just love doing and love doing together with our team. In addition to all the great people I get to work with here at Snap, the thing that wakes me up with a smile on my face every morning, the reason why I'm skipping to work is because I am in the weeds on what we're building and shipping to our community. That being said, there are always smarter, better, more talented experts working on all the different things we have going on, but I really do like staying close to what we're creating. I don't think it's relevant just to founders. I think no matter what type of company you're running or your role in the company, staying close to your customer, staying close to the product and the way that it's serving your customer is the fundamentally most important thing you could possibly do. I absolutely subscribe to the old school like walk the floors, talk to your customers, get out there, and stay in touch with what's actually happening with your service, with your community, with your team. I think that's probably the most important job that any leader can do in any company is stay close to their customer, stay close to their team.

你是否觉得，特别是对于消费类和社交类产品，深入参与所有发布内容、让设计团队必须批准一切这一点格外重要？你觉得这对消费类产品尤其重要吗？

Do you feel like especially for a consumer and consumer social product, this is extra important to just be like extremely in the weeds on everything that is shipping and say having designed your design team have to approve everything. Do you feel like that's especially important for consumer?

我不认为这对消费类产品格外重要。我认为这对任何想要为社区提供优秀产品的公司都格外重要。公司有不同的优势点和差异化方向，但如果你想在产品体验上实现差异化，我认为领导者保持非常贴近这一点非常重要。

I don't think it's especially important for consumer. I think it's especially important for any company that wants to deliver great products to their community. Companies have different points of strength and differentiation, but if you want to differentiate on the product experience, I think it's really important that leaders stay very close to that.

考虑到设计师基本上在主导一切、批准所有事情，就像是你的左右手，你在招聘设计师时有什么特别看重的吗？你招聘这些设计师时会特别寻找什么？

Is there anything specially look for in the designers you hire knowing that they're basically running the show and just approving everything and just kind of like the right hand to Evan? Is there anything in particular you look for when you're hiring these designers?

是的，有几件非常重要的事情。首先，我们所有的招聘决定都只基于作品集。这就是我们想看的全部。我真的不在乎你在哪里工作过或你的经验水平。事实上，大多数人都是刚从学校毕业就加入我们的设计团队，而不是来自大型科技公司之类的地方。我真正关注的是理解作品集，我想从作品集中看到两件事。第一是广泛的范围。这就是艺术和设计之间的区别。有很多人拥有非常独特的风格。他们有非常独特的构建和创造事物的方式。那实际上是艺术，对吧？他们在表达自己和他们对世界的个人观点，这可能非常美丽，但那不是设计。

Yeah, there are a couple really important things. First of all, we make all of our hiring decisions just based off portfolio. So that's really all we want to see. I really don't care where you worked or your level of experience. In fact, most people join our design team right out of school, not from a big tech company or something like that. And really what I'm focused on is understanding the portfolio and I want to see two things from the portfolio. The first is a really wide range. And that is the difference between art and design. So, there are lots of people who have a very distinct style. They have a very distinct way of building things and creating things. That really is art, right? They're expressing themselves and their own personal point of view on the world, and it can be very beautiful, but it is not design.

设计的本质是共情你的客户、你的受众、你的观众，无论对方是谁，然后打造出能真正引起他们共鸣的东西。这意味着你需要拥有极其广泛的能力范围。你必须能够构建和创造出看起来完全不同的东西。所以当我审阅作品集时，我首先看的是：他们做的东西是否千篇一律？还是他们能做出差异很大的作品，能够响应不同的需求？这样我就能判断他们是设计师，而不仅仅是艺术家。我想了解的另一件事——通常我会亲自面试每一位加入我们团队的设计师——是作品背后的“为什么”和故事。所以我通常会说：‘嘿，从你的作品集里挑一件，任何你感触深的都行。你可以喜欢它，也可以讨厌它，我不在乎。你只需要对它感触很深。然后告诉我你为什么要做它，以及你从那个过程中学到了什么。’我认为很快你就能了解一个人构建或发明某件事的过程。他们是怎么做的？我非常希望确保团队里有不同做事方式的人。我们设计团队的优势之一就是成员背景非常多元。他们可能来自 3D 动画领域，也可能来自电气工程领域。拥有这些以不同方式看待世界、拥有完全不同技能的人，是一种真正的优势。

Design is really about empathizing with your customer, your audience, your viewer, whoever it is, and then building something that will really resonate with them. And that means you need to have an extraordinary amount of range. You've got to be able to build and create things that look totally different. So when I'm going through a portfolio, the first thing I'm looking for is: are they building stuff that all looks the same? Or are they building things that look really different, that have been responsive to different sets of needs? And that's how I know that they're a designer and not just an artist. The other thing I want to understand — and typically I interview every designer that joins our team — is the why and the story behind the work they created. So typically what I'll do is just say, 'Hey, pick something in your portfolio, anything you feel strongly about. You could love it, hate it, I don't care. You just have to feel strongly about it. And just tell me the story of why you made it and what you learned through that process.' I think pretty quickly you can understand someone's process in terms of building something or inventing something. How did they go about it? And I'm really trying to make sure that we have people who have different ways of doing that on our team. One of the strengths of our design team has been that people come from lots of different backgrounds. They might come from 3D animation, or they might come from electrical engineering. That's a real strength to have folks who see the world differently and have totally different sets of skills.

在我为这次对话做准备时，我和很多在 Snap 工作过的人聊过，我已经把他们的想法融入了进来。但有一个点我觉得很有意思，我听说你花了很多时间培养年轻设计人才，这是你的一个重点。你能谈谈你是如何培养年轻设计人才的吗？

As I was preparing for this chat, I talked to a bunch of people that worked at Snap over the years, and I've integrated their ideas throughout. But one that came up that I thought was interesting is I hear that you spend a lot of time developing young design talent, and that's a big focus of yours. Can you just talk about how you develop young design talent?

我认为培养年轻设计人才的首要方法就是帮助他们大量创作，并从客户、队友或我本人那里获得大量反馈。我们在 Snap 做的一件与众不同的事是：你加入设计团队的第一天就要展示作品。第一天就让你开始创作，这一点非常重要。这为你之后在设计团队的体验和成长定下了基调，因为这就是我们的核心。我认为那些能很快适应这种创作节奏的人，他们的自我意识会逐渐消融。当你创造一千个新想法时，谁在乎其中大部分是不是好想法？这完全没问题。我们想要消除的是人们对想法的“珍视感”，那种‘我有一个完美的好主意，如果大家不喜欢，就说明我不是个好设计师’的感觉。不，那太荒谬了。我们都需要尽可能多地创造想法，随着时间的推移，这些想法会引导我们找到一些真正伟大的创意。对于年轻设计师来说，尽早建立这种构思的节奏非常重要。我们做的另一件不同的事——虽然我没在别处工作过，不太确定——是我们不允许设计师长期困在某个特定产品或领域。我们确保人们能在产品的不同部分轮换，带来新想法和新视角，同时避免感到无聊。如果你是一位优秀的设计师，却困在聊天体验设计上三年，那有多无聊？在 Snap，能够跨所有这些高参与度的产品服务工作，真的很令人兴奋。我们拥有世界上最大的地图之一，还有最大的增强现实平台。这些对设计师来说都是非常激动人心的机会，重要的是我们要让他们在这些不同的产品之间轮换，这样他们就不会被困住。

Well, I think the number one way to develop young design talent is just help them make lots of stuff and get a lot of feedback from whether it's our customers or their teammates or myself directly. One of the things that we do that's different at Snap is, your first day that you join the design team, you present work. It's really important that the first day you show up on the team, you're making things. That sets the tone for the rest of your experience on the design team and growth on the design team, because that's what we're all about. I think folks who can get comfortable very quickly in that velocity of making things, that's where the ego sort of melts away. When you're creating a thousand new ideas, who cares if most of them are not great ideas? That's totally fine. What we want to get rid of is that sense of preciousness that people have around ideas where they feel like, 'Oh, I've got this one really perfect great idea, and if people don't love it, that means that I'm not a great designer.' No, that's ridiculous. We all need to just create as many ideas as possible that will lead us to some really great ideas hopefully over time. For young designers, establishing that velocity of ideation very early on is really important. The other thing we do that I think is different — although I don't know, I've never really worked anywhere else — is we don't allow designers to get stuck on specific products or verticals for very long. We like to make sure people are rotating through different parts of the product to bring new ideas and fresh perspectives and also to avoid getting bored. If you're a great designer and you're stuck designing the chat experience for 3 years, how boring is that? It's really exciting at Snap to be able to work across all these highly engaged product services. We have one of the largest maps in the world. We have the biggest augmented reality platform. These are really exciting opportunities for designers, and it's important that we are rotating them across all these different products so they're not getting stuck.

我请过 Jenny Wan 上播客。她曾是 Claude 和 Co-work 的设计主管，也是 Figma 的董事。后来她加入 Anthropic，又回到了设计领域。我问她这次转变最难的部分是什么，她说就是现在要面对的所有评审，大量的批评和持续的反馈，她之前都忘了这一部分。所以很有趣，这恰恰是你们工作方式的核心——人们本质上必须学习并擅长的事情。

I had Jenny Wan on the podcast. She was head of design for Claude and Co-work, and she was a director at Figma. Then she came to Anthropic and moved to just I see design again. I asked her what's the hardest part of that move, and she said it's just all the crits that she has to deal with now, just so much criticism and constant feedback, and she'd forgotten about that part of it. So it's interesting that that's such a core part of the way you work — the thing that people have to learn essentially and get good at.

嗯，关于我们的设计团队和设计文化，非常重要的一点是：每周向我展示作品没有任何门槛。没有‘你不喜欢任何想法，不管别人觉得它多好或多坏’这种限制——你可以把它带到设计会议上，列在清单上，然后分享你的作品和想法。这非常重要，因为有时人们过度依赖评审过程，好想法反而被过滤掉了。在团队中建立这种文化，让你可以把任何东西带到设计会议上，没有过滤过程，我认为这非常关键。

Well, one of the things that's so important about our design team and our design culture is that there is no gate to showing me work every week. There is no 'you don't like any idea, it doesn't matter how good people think it is, how bad it is' — you can bring it to that design meeting, get it on the list, and share your work and your idea. That is so important because sometimes people over-rely on this critique process and great ideas get filtered out. Creating this culture on the team where you can bring anything to the design meeting, there's no filtering process, I think it's just so important.

你提到了 AI，以及设计师如何交付代码。我有一个朋友在一家大型科技公司工作，他说那里的整个设计团队被要求每月或每季度交付大约 10 个 PR，这真是一个全新的世界。我想问的是，你怎么看待设计师交付代码？是能做就做，还是有某种要求？更广泛地说，我很好奇 AI 如何改变你团队的运作方式。有哪些 AI 驱动的事情对你的团队运作产生了影响？

You mentioned AI, how designers are shipping code. I have a friend who works at a big tech company and he just said all the design team there is required to ship like 10 PRs a month or something like that per quarter, which is such a new world. I guess one is just like how do you think about designers shipping code? Is that like just do it if you can or is there a requirement sort of thing? And broadly I'm just curious how AI is changing the way your team operates. What are just a few things that have been impactful in how your team operates that are AI driven?

我觉得你可以退一步看。设计团队肯定没有交付代码的硬性要求，但我认为人们对于学习新事物充满热情和好奇。我们在设计团队一直努力做的事情之一就是‘自己想办法解决’。我记得早期我们尝试做 3D 图形相关的东西时就是这样。

I think you can step back. It's definitely not a requirement to ship code on the design team, but I think people are so passionate and curious about learning new things. One of the things we've always tried to do on the design team is just figure it out. I remember in the early days of some of the 3D graphic stuff that we were trying to do.

我们团队里有个成员以前从没做过 3D 图形，但他说，好吧，咱们就边学边做。于是他上了些在线教程，然后 boom，我们就飞速上手了。我觉得设计团队一直都很灵活，充满好奇心，愿意学习新东西。我不觉得你需要去推动或要求大家采用新工具、提交代码。现在的问题是，既然人人都觉得自己能提 PR，我们怎么在近十亿用户的规模下保证不出问题？这非常重要。所以我们开发了 AI 工具和护栏，让更多人能参与并提交代码，同时降低出 bug 的概率。我们现在有自动化代码审查，已经自动检测了差不多一万个 bug。在 Snap 内部版应用里，你摇一摇手机就能报告问题，智能体现在会调试到底发生了什么，还能建议修复方案。很快它就能直接实施修复了，这挺疯狂的。

One of our team members had never done 3D graphics before, and they were like, okay, let's just figure it out. So they took some online tutorials and boom, we were off to the races. I think the design team has always been flexible in terms of curiosity and learning new things. I don't think you have to push people or create a requirement for folks to want to adopt new tools and ship code. The big question now that everyone thinks they can submit a PR is how we don't break things at a billion-user scale. That's really important. So we've developed AI tools and guardrails to make it easier for more people to participate and submit code, but also reduce the likelihood of bugs. We have automated code review now. We've automatically detected close to 10,000 bugs at this point. We have a system at Snap where on the internal version of the app, you can shake to report a problem, and agents now debug exactly what happened and can suggest a fix. In pretty short order, it'll be implementing the fix as well, which is pretty crazy.

退一步看，AI 将如何改变公司运作方式，这让人非常兴奋。尤其是像我们这样的软件公司，正处在 AI 改变构建方式和产出内容的前沿。我们很想给这种混乱带来一些秩序。我们的做法是从社区和广告商需要完成的任务入手。非常基础和直接：对于 Snapchat 用户，任务很简单，就是让人们下载应用、添加密友、使用滤镜等等。对于广告商，可能是引导人们进入广告平台、配置广告活动等。通过列出社区旅程和广告商的所有待办任务，我们很清楚哪里可以用智能体，哪里需要围绕这些任务组建跨职能团队，并由 AI 工具支持。这也给了我们一个有用的机制来跟踪每个任务的业务成果进展。虽然在这个时刻你当然希望百花齐放，大家都在构建智能体和做实验，但确保我们专注于对社区和广告商重要的事情，这一点非常关键。

Taking a step back, there's so much excitement around how AI will change the way companies work. Software companies in particular, like ours, are on the cutting edge of how AI is changing how things get built and what gets done. We really wanted to bring some order to that chaos. We did that by starting with the jobs to be done for our community and our advertisers. Getting really basic and straightforward: for Snapchatters, our jobs to be done are as simple as getting people to download the app, get them to add their close friends, use lenses, something like that. On the advertiser front, it could be bringing people into the ad platform, configuring their campaign, etc. By listing out all these jobs to be done for the community journey and for advertisers, it became very clear where we could use agents, where we needed to be very focused in building cross-functional teams around those jobs supported by AI tools. It's also given us a helpful mechanism to track our progress against the business outcomes for each job. While in this moment you certainly want to have a thousand flowers bloom and people are building agents and experimenting, making sure we stay focused on what matters to our community and advertisers is really important.

好，我想退一步回顾一下。你从事 Snap 工作已经 15 年了，大约 15 年前你推出了它。我很好奇，过去 15 年里你学到的最重要的教训，也许是最艰难的教训是什么？那些你心想“哦，我创办公司时根本没意识到这一点”的事情。

Okay, I want to take a step back and reflect. It's been 15 years since you've been working on Snap. You launched it about 15 years ago. I'm curious, what are some of the biggest lessons, maybe the hardest lessons you've learned over the past 15 years, things that you're like, oh, I didn't realize this as I was starting this company.

很难理解这份工作随着时间推移变化有多大。从早期我和 Bobby 一起的时候，我帮忙设计产品、回复客户支持邮件、整理法律文件、尝试融资，到现在公司发展壮大，工作内容发生了巨大变化。现在更多的是关于领导力：确保你培养人才、选对团队成员、塑造文化，并且认真对待这些事，某种程度上还要建立一种结构来维持公司凝聚力和愿景。它变成了关于战略，应对像今天人工智能这样的巨大变革，以及几年前应对疫情或随着格局变化重建广告平台。这份工作变化太大了。这正是它如此令人振奋、我也如此享受的原因，但这也是我当初刚开始时绝对无法预料到的。

It's hard to comprehend how much the job changes over time. It's really quite extraordinary to go from the early days with Bobby and I, where I was helping design the product, answering customer support emails, trying to get our legal filings sorted out, trying to raise money. As the company grows and things evolve, so much more of the job is about leadership, about making sure you're developing people, selecting the right people to be on the team, developing the culture, doing that really seriously, and in some ways creating a structure that can enforce a cohesive culture and vision around the company. It becomes about strategy, managing through enormous change like what we're seeing with artificial intelligence today, but also several years ago managing through the pandemic or managing through rebuilding our advertising platform as the landscape changed. The job has just changed so dramatically. That's part of what's so energizing about it, what I enjoy so much about it, but it's also something I never in a million years could have anticipated when we were first getting started.

在这个过程中，你最大的改变和成长是什么？你在哪个方面提升最大？

How have you most changed and evolved over that course? What's a big area that you've improved in?

我重点关注的领域之一是学习如何更有效地沟通，既对团队，也在这里的播客或对世界。这份工作很大一部分就是成为优秀的沟通者。我记得在公司早期，我有机会见到克林顿总统，他说：‘你知道吗，当总统其实就像首席解释官。你的工作就是向人们解释事情，帮助他们理解世界、公司以及他们自己的角色。’我一直觉得这很有意思，并且经常回想起来。我的工作很大一部分就是向公司、股东和世界解释事情，用有意义的方式激励大家，帮助我们朝着正确的方向前进。沟通成了一项核心技能。早期我有些不必要地轻视了沟通的重要作用。

One of the big focus areas for me was learning how to communicate more effectively, both to our team, but also here on a podcast or with the world. So much of the job is about becoming a great communicator. I remember I had the opportunity to meet President Clinton at one point in the early days of the company, and he said, 'You know, being president is really like being explainer-in-chief. Your job is to explain stuff to people and help them make sense of the world and the company and their role in it.' I always thought that was really interesting and I go back to that a lot. So much of my job is to explain things to our company, to our shareholders, to the world in ways that make sense and can inspire folks and help us all move in the right direction. Communication becomes such a core skill. In the early days I was unnecessarily dismissive of the really important role of communication.

对于听到这里的创始人来说，他们可能会想，好吧，我也要在这方面努力。是什么最帮助你在这方面提升？是教练？是身边的人？还是仅仅通过实践？

For founders that are hearing this and they're like, okay, I'm going to work on this. What most helped you level up in this space? Is it like coaches? Is it people around you? Is it just doing it?

实践是唯一的途径。我记得这是我们一位董事会成员给我的建议，因为我当时非常不情愿。在公司早期，我不想开全员大会，不想做问答环节。我想，我发封邮件就行了。他说：‘你在干什么？没办法，Evan，这是你的工作。’我觉得那真是非常好的建议。

Just doing it is really the only way. I remember that was the advice one of our board members gave to me because I was so reluctant. I didn't want to do an all-hands. I didn't want to do Q&A in the early days of the company. I was like, I'll just send an email. And he said, 'What are you doing? Too bad, Evan. This is your job.' I think that was really good advice.

我当时就想，好吧，这是我工作的核心部分，是我必须学会的事情。我要学着去热爱它。我想要热爱它。我想站到台上，面对公司上下，真正享受回答那些棘手的问题，和团队一起深入探讨业务。现在我真的做到了。我学会了享受与团队的对话，从大家提出的问题中学到了很多。我喜欢这种开放的氛围，我认为这是我们公司和我们的文化中非常重要的一部分。

Uh and so literally I was like okay fine. You know this is a core part of my job and what I need to learn how to do. I'm going to learn to love it. I want to love it. I want to get up there and get in front of our company and really enjoy answering all these really tough questions and digging into the business with our team. And now I really do. I've learned to really enjoy that dialogue with our team. And I learn so much from the questions that folks ask. And I love that openness. I think it's just such an important part of our company and who we are.

我之前在播客中采访过 Superhuman 的创始人 Rahul Vohra。他经历了类似的转变：他热爱自己正在做的事情，但后来被风投和领导者推着去做其他事情。然后他说：“我真的不喜欢这个，我要找到一种方式去做我真正热爱的事，因为这会在很多方面影响业务并帮助它成功。”你也有过这样的经历吗？还是说“我只想回到产品和构建上”？

I had Rahul Vohra on the podcast a while back, the founder of Superhuman. And he went through a similar transition where he loved what he was doing and then ended up being pushed by VCs and leaders to do these other things. And then he said, 'I really don't like this and I'm going to find a way to do the thing I really enjoy because that's going to reflect in so many ways across the business and help it succeed.' Is that something you went through, or just like 'I just want to get back to the product and building'?

我认为，如果你想继续担任 CEO，这种想法只有部分正确。CEO 这个职位有很多要求，不一定是早上起来就喜欢做的事情。担任 CEO 伴随着巨大的责任，需要培养很强的运营纪律。CEO 的工作并非每个部分都光鲜亮丽。所以，如果我只想做产品，我会在 Snap 选择其他职位。但我真的很喜欢领导公司，引导业务方向和战略，而且我看到了通过 Snapchat 和 Specs 改变人们未来使用计算方式的巨大机遇，所以我认为目前这个角色很适合我。当然，如果我在其他职位或更专注于设计，我会有更多时间陪伴家人，某些日子也会更开心，但像我们这样规模的企业所面临的机会，对我来说是一生一次的。尽管有挑战，我确实喜欢 CEO 的工作。

You know, I think that's only partly true if you want to stay in the CEO job. Like I think the CEO job has a lot of requirements that are not necessarily things you love to do in the morning. There's a huge amount of responsibility that comes along with being CEO. There's a lot of operational rigor that I think needs to be developed. I think not every part of the CEO job is glamorous. So if I just wanted to work on product, I would pick a different job at Snap. But I think because I really like leading our company and leading the direction and strategy for the business, and because I see a huge opportunity in transforming the way that people use computing in the future, both through Snapchat and also with Specs, I think this is the right role for me right now. I mean, I certainly would spend more time with my family and probably have more fun on some days if I was in a different role or more focused on design, but I think the opportunity for a business like ours at the scale we have is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity for me. And despite its challenges, I do like the CEO job.

顺着这个思路，你在去年年底发了一封信，把今年描述为 Snap 的“关键时刻”。这很有意思，你们有十亿月活用户，这太惊人了，我觉得很多人没有意识到这一点。你们年收入大约 60 亿美元，是少数几个持久、稳固的社交网络之一，拥有非常有价值、有趣的用户群。但另一方面，股价表现并不好，有投资者向你施压，要求你改变很多事情。我想听听你的想法和反思，你觉得人们忽略了哪些关于 Snap 未来走向的东西？

So, kind of along those lines, you put out this letter, I think it was the end of last year, where you described this coming year as the crucible moment for Snap. It's so interesting, just like you guys have a billion monthly active users. That's just absurd. I don't think people realize this. You're making 6 billion a year in revenue, something like that. One of the very few social networks that lasts, that is durable, with a very valuable, interesting audience. On the flip side, the stock hasn't been killing it. There are investors coming at you trying to tell you to change all these things. I guess just thoughts, reflections, and what do you think people are missing about where this might go?

这正是我称今年为“关键时刻”的原因之一。公司几乎达到了进入《财富》500 强的规模，这非常令人兴奋。月活用户接近十亿，在投资了 12 年之后，我们即将推出 Specs 这个未来计算平台。但与此同时，我们还没有实现净利润盈利，因为我们一直在大力投资未来，并选择了这样做。所以，我认为今年我们必须证明 Snapchat 可以成为一个非常强大、盈利的业务，并且能够继续在用户覆盖面和用户与新产品的互动上增长，无论是话题聊天、Spotlight 还是游戏。现在 Snapchat 上每月有 2 亿人玩游戏，游戏正成为 Snapchat 用户互动的重要驱动力。这之所以重要，是因为如果没有一个非常坚实的基础，我们很难在 Specs 上取得长期成功。因此，我们需要证明，在重建广告平台和市场推广工作几年之后，我们能够真正加速中小客户业务的增长，这部分业务已经增长得非常快。今年我们有了一个非常坚实的基础，可以开启公司历史的新篇章。这对 Snap 来说是一个真正的转折点，非常令人兴奋，但绝对是公司全员行动的时刻。

Well, that's really one of the reasons why I called this year a crucible moment. I mean, the company's almost at the scale of entering the Fortune 500, which is really exciting. It's almost at a billion monthly active users. It's about to launch Specs after 12 years of investment in this future computing platform. But at the same time, it's still not net income profitable, for example, because we've been investing so heavily in the future and making the choice to do that. And so, I think this is the year that we have to prove that Snapchat can be a really strong, profitable business, that it continues to grow both in terms of the reach of our audience and their engagement with new products, whether it's topic chats or Spotlight or gaming. I think we got 200 million people playing games every month on Snapchat now, so gaming is becoming a big part of the engagement drivers on Snapchat. And the reason why that's so important is that it's going to be very hard for us to win long-term in Specs without a really solid foundation. And so I think we need to demonstrate that after a couple years of rebuilding our ad platform, rebuilding our go-to-market efforts, we can really accelerate the growth of the small and medium customer part of our business, which has grown really rapidly for us. This year we have a really solid foundation to launch the next chapter in the company's history. So it's a real turning point for Snap that's really exciting, but it's definitely an all-hands-on-deck moment for the company.

你用一种非常有趣的方式描述了 Snap 在市场中的位置，你称 Snap 为“中间孩子”。谈谈这到底意味着什么。

You had a really interesting way of describing Snap in the market. You called Snap the middle child. Talk about just what that means.

是的，我觉得我们的服务有一点很有趣：虽然我们在用户规模和业务规模上都非常大，比 Pinterest 或 Reddit 大得多，但我们也比 Meta 和 Google 小得多。因此，我们在市场中占据了一个非常有趣的中间位置。我认为这带来了很多好处，因为我们足够大，有足够的规模去做非常有趣的事情，但同时也带来了挑战，有时会被“老大哥”掩盖，有时“小弟弟”们又更受关注。所以，在这个关键时刻，定义我们作为一家公司和一项业务的身份是其中的一部分。我认为，将 Specs 推向消费者将在其中发挥重要作用。因为现在，我们已经谈论了太长时间 Specs 将在世界上扮演的角色，我们开发这个平台已经很久了，但如果没有一个真正可以玩、可以拥有、可以自己使用的东西，就很难真正理解 Snap 旅程的下一章。所以，我认为中间孩子面临的最大挑战之一就是定义自己，从哥哥姐姐和弟弟妹妹中脱颖而出。因此，我认为今年是 Snap 真正定义自己的时刻和年份。我对此感到非常兴奋。

Yeah, I think one of the things that's so funny about our service is that while we're very large in terms of the scale of our audience and the scale of our business, we're much larger than a Pinterest or a Reddit, for example. We're also way smaller than Meta and Google. And so we occupy this very interesting sort of middle position in the market. And I think that comes with a lot of benefits because we're big enough, we have enough scale to do really interesting things, but it also comes with the challenges of being overshadowed in some cases by our older brothers and maybe sometimes the younger kids are getting more attention. And so I think again, in this crucible moment, part of defining who we are as a company and who we are as a business. And I think one of the things that will play an important role in that is getting Specs out to consumers. Because I think right now, we've talked so long about the role that Specs will play in the world. We've worked on developing the platform for so long, but without something that you can really play with and hang on to and use yourself, it's hard to really understand the next chapter of Snap's journey. So, I think one of the biggest challenges that middle children face is defining themselves, standing out from their older siblings and younger siblings. And so, I think this is a moment and a year when Snap is really going to define itself. And I'm really excited about that.

说到中间孩子，你有好几个孩子。我很好奇，这是一个完全不同的方向。

Speaking of middle child, you have a number of children. And I'm curious, this is a whole different direction.

你在屏幕和设备方面的政策是什么？你知道，你打造了 Snapchat 和 Spectacles，你怎么看待设备和你孩子的关系？

What's your policy on screens and devices? You know, having built Snapchat and then also Spectacles, how do you think about devices and your kids?

嗯，我们的孩子年龄跨度很大。我们有四个男孩，分别是两岁、六岁、七岁和 15 岁。所以我们对不同年龄段的孩子采取完全不同的方式。对于两岁的孩子，基本上是零屏幕时间。我们只想和他一起读书、玩耍、去户外探索之类的，除非他理发——因为他理发时真的很挣扎。他特别喜欢 Bobcat 拖拉机，喜欢看 YouTube 上人们驾驶 Bobcat 拖拉机的视频。所以理发时他可以看那些视频，但除此之外，没有屏幕时间。对于六岁和七岁的孩子，他们偶尔看电影，但除此之外，我们不给他们手机之类的东西。事实上，圣诞节假期时很有趣，我给了他们那个新出的——我记得 Palmer Lucky 有个创业公司，他们在重新制作 Game Boy。对，我也有一个，真的很好玩。所以 TV PN 的人给了我两个给孩子们当圣诞礼物。所以他们可以在那些设备上玩一会儿，偶尔看看电影。至于 15 岁的孩子，他完全沉浸在科技里，无论是用于学习、和朋友聊天，还是用 Snapchat。所以这真的取决于孩子和他们的发展阶段，但对我们来说，这就是我们的做法。

Well, we've got a real range. We've got four boys, two, six, seven, and 15. So we approach it very differently for all the kids at different ages. For the two-year-old, it's like zero screen time. We really just want to read with him and play, explore outside, and those sorts of things, but not focus on screens unless he is getting a haircut because he really struggles with that. When he gets a haircut, he really loves Bobcat tractors, and he loves to watch YouTube videos of people driving Bobcat tractors around. So when he gets his haircut, he can watch people drive Bobcat tractors. But other than that, no screen time. For the six- and seven-year-olds, they are infrequent movie watchers, but other than that, we don't give them phones or anything like that. In fact, it was really fun over the holidays for Christmas; I gave them that new — I think Palmer Lucky has a startup where they are sort of remaking Game Boys. Yeah, I have one of those. It's really fun. So the TV PN guys gave me two of them for our kids for Christmas. So they get to spend a little time on those in addition to watching movies every now and then. And then with a 15-year-old, he is all in on technology, whether he's using it for school or talking with his friends or using Snapchat. So it really depends on kids and where they're at developmentally, but for us, that's been our approach.

你有没有和孩子一起用 AI？比如甚至大一点的孩子，用 AI 教育工具、ChatGPT 之类的？

Is there anything you're doing with AI and your kids? Like maybe even the older one, just AI education tools, ChatGPT?

是啊，特别有意思。前几天早上吃早餐时，我问了他们很多问题，比如老师在学校怎么谈论 AI，他们怎么考虑把 AI 融入课程，你们是不是一直在用 AI。到目前为止，答案基本是“没有”，我觉得挺有意思的。不过我们的孩子在家确实会玩 AI。他们是 Spectacles 的测试者，这真的很有趣。我很喜欢和他们一起用眼镜，体验那些很酷的功能。最大的孩子 Flynn 可能最熟练使用 AI 工具。但我觉得最有趣的是，作为孩子，我们都极富想象力，天生有创造力，有那么多奇妙的点子可以分享。AI 的酷之处在于，几乎瞬间就能把任何想法变成现实。所以我认为这对年轻人来说非常赋能。我当然希望我们的孩子能有这种体验，而且我认为将 AI 深度融入当今的教育方式将非常重要。

Yeah, it's so funny. At the breakfast table the other morning, I was just asking them a lot about how their teachers are talking about AI at school, how they're thinking about integrating it into the curriculum, and whether they're using AI all the time. I think the answer so far has been not really, which I think is interesting. But certainly, our kids play around with it at home. They are beta testers for Spectacles, which is really fun. I really love using the glasses together with them and some of the really cool experiences there. And Flynn, who's the eldest, is probably most fluent in using AI tools. But what I think is so fun is that as kids, we are all incredibly imaginative, born creative, with all these amazing ideas to share. And what's so cool about AI is how, in nearly an instant, you can take any idea you have and make something. So I think that's so empowering for young people. It's certainly an experience I want our kids to have, and I think it's going to be so important to deeply integrate into the way education works today.

是啊，很有意思。Snapchat 一直很擅长让你创作并感觉像个超级明星，制作各种疯狂的镜头和滤镜。有趣的是，AI 就像编程一样，释放了如此多的创造力。而孩子们本来就已经很有想象力了。

Yeah, it's interesting. Snapchat has always been really good at allowing you to create and feel like a superstar, just create all these really crazy lenses and filters. And it's interesting that AI, just like coding, unleashes so much creativity. And kids are so imaginative already.

完全同意。

Absolutely.

真有意思。好了，为了结束我们的对话，我有几个播客的固定环节。一个是 AI 角落。问题是：你在工作中使用 AI 的哪种方式很有趣，可能对其他人有借鉴意义？

So interesting. Okay, well, to close out our conversation, I've got a couple recurring corners on the podcast. One is AI corner. So the question is: what's a way you use AI in your work that is interesting and might be useful for other people to learn from?

嗯，我非常喜欢 AI 的一点是，在 Snap，我可以访问所有的仪表盘、文档和数据。所以我建了一个——我们有 Glean，它整合了我所有的数据——我构建了一个智能体，它会梳理公司里发生的一切，告诉我发生了什么、我需要关注什么、需要抓住什么。时不时地，它真的能抓住一些我没意识到或需要更多关注的事情。所以我觉得我们很幸运，公司有这么多结构化数据。我们的领导每周也会给我发本周的三件事和下周的三件事。所以我可以很容易地了解公司的热点和优先领域。结合所有的仪表盘和关于人们如何使用我们服务的指标，我觉得我对公司的情况有很好的把握。所以对我来说，AI 最令人兴奋的是，它实现了我一直想要的那种领导结构，非常扁平、快速。拥有一个 AI 副驾驶来帮助我做到这一点，意义重大。

Well, one of the things I really love about AI is that at Snap, I've got access to all of our dashboards, documents, and data. So I built — we have Glean that integrates all this data for me — and I built an agent that will go and comb through everything happening in the company and let me know what's up, what I need to focus on, what I need to catch. And every now and then it really catches something that I hadn't realized or needed to focus on more. So I think we're just so fortunate to have so much structured data in our company. Our leaders also send me every week the three things from the week and three things looking ahead. So I can very easily get a sense for the hotspots in the company, the priority areas. Combined with all our dashboards and metrics about how people are using our service, I feel like I have a really good sense for what's happening in the company. So what's been most exciting for me in terms of AI is that it's enabling the type of leadership structure I've always wanted, which is very flat and fast-moving. Having an AI co-pilot to help me do that has been a big deal.

那个智能体是用 Glean 构建的吗？它就在那里运行？

And that agent was built in Glean? Is that where it lives?

是的，我是在 Glean 里做的，这很棒。显然，你可以在 Claude 里构建各种东西。但对我们来说，Glean 是访问所有不同文档、仪表盘等最安全的方式。

Yeah, I've done that in Glean, which is great. Obviously, you can build all sorts of stuff in Claude. But Glean for us is the most secure way to access all of our different documents and dashboards and things like that.

你的 AI 技术栈里有什么有趣的东西吗？听起来有 Glean、Claude。还有什么其他人可能没想到的有趣东西吗？

Is there anything interesting in your AI stack? Sounds like Glean, Claude. Is there anything else that's interesting that some people may not think about?

我认为我们正在思考的一件事是，把整个工作流程交给一个智能体来完成。例如，拿一个产品创意，用我们的市场推广智能体，把这个产品创意写成规格说明，确定需要参与审批和理解的相关人员，实际上帮助从法律、信任和安全角度进行风险分析，撰写市场推广材料如博客等。我们现在还在构建视觉效果，但一次性完成所有这些真的很疯狂。所以我认为公司里有很多这样的例子，智能体可以在改变我们工作方式方面发挥巨大作用，这与我们如何看待那些需要完成的工作有关。如果我们能足够清晰地定义一项需要完成的工作，从而构建一个智能体来完成它，那就能带来很大的提升。

I think one of the things we're thinking a lot about is just taking the entire workflow and enabling it with an agent. For example, taking a product idea and with our go-to-market agent, taking that product idea, writing the spec, identifying the relevant folks who need to be involved in sign-offs and understanding it, actually helping to do the risk analysis on the product from a legal, trust, and safety perspective, writing the go-to-market materials like the blog, etc. We're working now on actually building the visuals as well, but doing that in one shot is really wild. So I think there are all sorts of examples like that across the company in terms of the way that agents can play a massive role in changing how we work, and that's connected to how we think about those jobs to be done. If we can define a job to be done clearly enough that we can build an agent to do it, that can really create a lot of lift.

你在哪里构建这个智能体？你用什么平台？

What do you Where do you build this agent? What's the What platform do you use?

我们一直在用 Claude 来完成很多工作，在 Snap 内部都是。

Uh we've been using Claude to do a lot of the work um you know, across Snap, yeah.

好。接下来我们进入播客的另一个固定环节——逆向思维角。你有什么相信而大多数人不相信的观点？随便想到什么逆向看法都行。

Sweet. Okay. Uh I'll take us to another recurring corner in the podcast, contrarian corner. What's something that you believe that a lot of other people don't believe? What's kind of a contrarian take about anything that comes to mind?

嗯，对我来说，我们身处一个几乎所有讨论都聚焦于技术的行业，而我的逆向观点可能是：人性远比技术发展重要得多，因为人性决定了技术如何被采纳，对吧？比如，现在人们大大低估了人类接受度和舒适度在决定 AI 部署中的作用。技术领导者以为大家会盲目接受新技术，但我认为我们将进入一个时期，社会会对 AI 带来的许多变化产生巨大抵制。所以，我们行业乃至整个世界需要把人性放在首位，确保我们开发的工具在推进商业目标的同时，也推进人类的目标。至少在我们行业，这算是一种逆向思维。

Well, I I think for me, like we're we're in an industry where so much of the conversation is focused on uh technology and I think maybe my contrarian point of view or my contrarian angle is like humanity is far more important, uh you know, than than the technological developments largely because humanity dictates how technology is adopted, right? I think, for example, right now people are massively underestimating the role that human adoption and human comfort, uh you know, with advances in artificial intelligence will determine its deployment, right? I think technology leaders think that folks will just blindly adopt uh new technology as it comes out and I think we're going to enter a period of time where there's going to be a huge amount of societal pushback on a lot of the changes that are coming uh with AI. And so, I think a lot of our focus as an industry, but more broadly in the world, needs to be putting humanity first, right? Making sure that the tools uh we're developing are advancing humanity's goals, um you know, in addition to uh business goals. And you know, I think in our industry at least that that's a bit contrarian.

是的，我们不必深入这个话题，但我觉得 AI 实验室很难办：一方面要说“如果它变得更聪明会很危险，人们需要知道，因为事情正在快速发生”，另一方面又不能把所有人都吓坏，让大家对未来充满恐惧。他们到底该怎么做？因为所有这些悲观论调，我敢肯定你见过那些调查——AI 的受欢迎程度比冰还低，甚至低于伊朗。这不太妙。我不知道如果我是实验室负责人会怎么做。不过，我想 Snapchat 的一个好处是你们很早就涉足 AI，展示了 AI 有趣的一面，它不必那么严肃。总之，Evan，我们到了激动人心的快问快答环节。我有五个问题。准备好了吗？

Yeah, and just so we don't need to go too down this path, but I it's so hard for the AI labs, I think, to on the one hand be like, "Okay, this is really dangerous if it gets much smarter, and we need people to know this cuz this is happening and moving quickly." On the other hand, how do you not just freak everyone out and make everyone so afraid of where things are going? It's like, "Well, how do you What do you do? What's the right thing for them to do?" And and because of all that all that doom and gloom, it's like I'm sure you've seen these surveys. AI is like below ice in terms of popularity and and I like below like Iran. It's like and this isn't going great. I don't know. I don't know what I'd do if I were a lab. And I love I guess that's like a a benefit of Snapchat is it makes like you guys have been in AI from for a very long time, and it shows you the playfulness of it all and you know, it doesn't have to be that serious. Anyway, with that, Evan, we've reached our very exciting lightning round. I've got five questions for you. Are you ready?

来吧。

Let's give it a shot.

好。你经常向别人推荐哪两三本书？

Okay. What are two or three books that you find yourself recommending most to other people?

天哪，我刚读完 David Pogue 写的《苹果前 50 年》。我觉得很棒。我推荐前半部分，因为他采访了大约 150 位苹果早期员工，故事非常精彩，有很多值得学习的地方。我真的很喜欢。最近还读了什么？有一本很适合当下时刻的书叫《世界末日只是开始》，它讲了很多全球航运的脆弱性。全球经济建立在全球航运之上，这本书预测了一个美国更难保障全球航道的世界，以及这对我们建造东西和组织社会的方式意味着什么。

Gosh, well, you know what I just finished was the first 50 years of Apple by David Pogue. I thought it was great. I would recommend the first half because you know, he interviews like 150 early Apple team members, and it the stories are just great, and there's a lot of learnings in there. Um so, I really enjoyed I really enjoyed that. I think uh what else have I read recently? Uh there's a a great book maybe relevant for this particular moment called The End of the World Is Just the Beginning, um which actually touches a lot on the vulnerability uh global shipping. Like the global economy is built on global shipping, um and it sort of predicts a world where the US was going to have a much harder time securing the global waterways, uh and what does that mean for the way that we build things and organize ourselves as a society.

听起来很熟悉，跟当下很相关。太棒了。最近有什么你特别喜欢的电影或电视剧吗？

That sounds quite familiar these days. Quite relevant for the given moment. Yeah. Awesome. Is there a recent movie or TV show you have really enjoyed?

我觉得这很老套，但我超爱《Marty Supreme》。那部电影太棒了。我不习惯看那么极端的片子，全程都紧张得坐立不安。这是一场全力以赴的电影体验。强烈推荐。

I mean, I feel like this is so typical, but like I I loved Marty Supreme. I thought that movie was off the charts. Uh and I I was like I I don't know. I'm I'm not used to watching stuff that extreme. You know what I mean? I could I could be I was like on the edge of my seat the whole time. It's like a full-throttle movie experience. Highly recommend.

我还没看过，但一直听说很棒。很激烈是吧。好，我准备好了。下一个问题。你最近有没有发现什么特别喜欢的商品？可以是 App、衣服、小工具，什么都行。

I've not seen it yet. I keep hearing amazing things. It's It's very intense. Yeah. Okay. I'm ready for that. Next question. Do you have a Is there a product you recently discovered that you really love? Could be an app, could be clothing, gadget, anything.

哦，通过我们的孩子，我最近重新发现了宝可梦，太有趣了。它充满了艺术、个性和角色，真是个了不起的品牌和系列。我的总体看法是，他们还有很多可以发展这个 IP 和系列的空间，至少从我们孩子身上就能看出来。

Oh, I think through our kids right now I'm just rediscovering uh Pokémon, which is so fun. It's so great. And I think uh you know, there's so much art to it and personality and character and uh what an amazing brand and franchise. And I think like I you know, my general view is like there's just so so much they could do to grow uh you know, that that IP and and franchise if at least if our kids are any indication.

快问快答中首次提到宝可梦。下一个问题。你有没有一句经常在工作中或生活中回味的座右铭？

First mention of Pokémon in the lightning round. Next question. Do you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to in work or in life?

你有两只耳朵一张嘴，按这个比例使用它们。

You have two ears and one mouth. Use them in that proportion.

好。最后一个问题。你们这些年做了很多滤镜。我很好奇你有没有一个最喜欢的，比如史上最爱，以及最不喜欢的，最差的。

Nice. Final question. Uh you guys have created many lenses over the years. I'm curious if you have just like a favorite lens, like all-time favorite, and then all-time least favorite, the worst.

嗯，史上最爱可能是“呕吐彩虹”。它给很多人带来了很多快乐，很棒。最不喜欢的，可能是老滤镜，或者换脸。我就是……

Uh I mean, all-time favorite is probably the vomiting rainbow. I think like that just brought so much joy uh to so many people, which is great. Least favorite, probably like the old lens. I don't know. Or face swap. I just

哦，对。那些很激烈。是啊，回忆杀。你们是第一个做换脸的吧？

Oh, right. Those are intense. Yeah. Wow, flashback. And you guys were the first to do that, right?

是的，那都是早期在设备上实时机器学习转换的成果。当时相当前沿。我觉得人们没意识到 Bobby 大约十年前就创建了我们的生成式 AI 实验室。

Yeah, I mean, and that was all that that was all early days real-time machine learning transformation on the device. You know, like that was like pretty cutting edge at the time. I mean, I don't think people realize that Bobby created our Gen AI lab like 10 years ago, a decade ago, something like that.

那是什么时代啊，换脸时代。早期生成式 AI 的实际应用。哇，我都忘了那是另一项创新。然后有些企业和 App 声称把它做成了整个业务，但后来都消失了。据我所知是这样。那真是好时光。好了，Evan，在我放你走之前，你还有什么想分享的，有什么想留给听众的吗？

What a time, man. The face-swapping era. Yeah. The early use of generative AI in action. Wow, I forgot that was another innovation. And then there's like businesses and apps that just said they built that as a whole business. And then all all went away. As far as I can tell. Wow, man. That was a good time. All right. Well, Evan, is there anything else you want to share, anything else you want to leave listeners with before we before I let you go?

我认为这是一个非常激动人心的时代。显然，很多人担心 AI 会如何改变我们的社会，但我认为在计算变得更人性化方面有很多值得乐观的地方，而这正是我们专注的方向。所以，我很期待今年晚些时候分享更多我们正在做的事情。

I think it's such an it's such an exciting time. Obviously, I think there's a lot of concern about the way that artificial intelligence is going to change our society, but I think there's so much to be optimistic about in terms of the way that computing can become more human, and that's really what we're focused on. So, really excited to share more about all the stuff we've been working on later this year.

Evan，非常感谢你来做客。

Evan, thank you so much for being here.

我的荣幸。谢谢 Lenny。大家再见。

My pleasure. Thanks, Lenny. Bye, everyone.

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