埃文·斯皮格尔谈打造 Snapchat 与对抗 Meta

你在 25 岁时成为世界上最年轻的亿万富翁之一。你说过，嗯，Meta 偷了一些东西。

You became one of the youngest billionaires in the world at age 25. You said that, um, that Meta has stolen some stuff.

马克·扎克伯格录下了自己说“Poke”这个词的声音，那就是这个应用的提示音。这么大的公司竟然如此关注我们在做的事。我妈妈当时说：“如果你自己组装，你就可以拥有自己的电脑。”我说：“好吧，那就组装一台电脑吧。”

Mark Zuckerberg recorded himself saying the word 'Poke.' That was the notification sound for the app. Such a big company was so focused on what we were doing. My mom was like, 'You can have your own computer if you build it.' And I was like, 'Okay, you're building a computer.'

那是几岁？

What age is this?

11 岁、12 岁。

11, 12.

你已经进入了最好的大学之一，然后你说你想为了这个想法而辍学。

You've gone into one of the best colleges and then you're saying you want to drop out for this idea.

去做一件我充满热情的事，这似乎是理所当然的。

It seemed obvious to work on something I was passionate about.

那么，你对 Snap 的未来有什么期望？

So, what are your hopes for the future of Snap?

天哪，太多了，太多了。

Oh my gosh, I have so, so many.

嘿，大家好，欢迎来到我们全新的迷你系列节目《创始人星期五》。过去 14 年里，我一直是企业家，做过 Candy Kittens、Jampot、Tuck Shop 等我的其他生意。老实说，这是我经历过最艰难的旅程之一。而且这还是从一个新手父母的角度说的，好吗？我每天都在学习，每天都在犯错。所以，对整个七月，我想为你们——我们的社区，我们了不起的社区——做点特别的事，好吗？但同时也是为我自己。我将和我敬佩的创始人坐下来聊聊，他们建立了出色的企业，并且慷慨地分享了他们一路上学到的经验。相信我，你们绝对不想错过。我学到的东西非常不可思议。我的第一位嘉宾真正改变了我们的沟通方式。他是有史以来最年轻的亿万富翁之一，他就是 Snapchat 的创始人和 CEO 埃文·斯皮格尔。埃文在 2011 年、还在斯坦福大学读书时就推出了 Snapchat。从那以后，他建立了全世界最大的社交平台之一，每天有超过 4 亿人使用。今年四月，我在科茨沃尔德举办的一场 Snapford 活动上和他坐了下来。那真是不可思议。我们的对话天南地北。埃文谈到了创建 Snap 的早期岁月、他学到的最大商业教训，以及他如何为自己的孩子考虑社交媒体。一场非常庞大的对话。那么，就是它了。我们第一次的《伟大公司》呈现《创始人星期五》，与埃文·斯皮格尔。敬请欣赏。

Hey guys, and welcome to our brand new miniseries, Founders Friday. Now, I've been an entrepreneur for the last 14 years with Candy Kittens, with Jampot, with Tuck Shop, my other businesses. And honestly, it's been one of the hardest journeys I've ever been on. And that's coming from a new parent, okay? And I'm learning every single day, making mistakes every single day. So, for the month of July, I want to do something special for you, our community, our amazing community, okay? But also for myself. I'm going to be sitting down with founders I admire, people who have built brilliant businesses and who have been generous enough to share the lessons they've learned along the way. Trust me, you do not want to miss this. The things that I've learned have been incredible. My first guest is someone who genuinely changed the way we communicate. He's one of the youngest billionaires ever. It's Evan Spiegel, the founder and CEO of Snapchat. Evan launched Snapchat in 2011 when he was still a student at Stanford University. Since then, he's built one of the biggest social platforms in the entire world, used by more than 400 million people every single day. We sat down together in April at a Snapford event I was hosting in the Cotswolds. It was incredible. And our conversation just went everywhere. Evan opens up about the early days of building Snap, the biggest business lessons he's learned, and how he thinks about social media when it comes to his own children. A huge conversation. So, here it is. Our first ever Great Company presents Founders Friday with Evan Spiegel. Enjoy it.

感觉我们好像要录一档烹饪节目。

It feels like we're about to do a cooking show.

那会是下一集。

That'll be the next episode.

埃文下厨。我们就是这样做的，关于怎么制作酸面包。

Evan cooking. This is how we're doing, about how to make sourdough.

你最喜欢的酸面包是哪一种？我们去做吧。

What's your favorite sourdough? Let's go do it.

我想先问你几个快问快答的问题。你作为年轻创始人时抱持的哪个信念，后来被完全推翻了？

I want to start with some quickfire questions for you. What's one belief you had as a younger founder that you've completely reversed?

你知道，在我们创办公司时，我们极度注重保密。对我们正在开发的产品，我们保密得近乎偏执。即使公司内部，人们也不会真正互相谈论各自在做的事。显然，这其中有巨大的恐惧，部分源于我们与 Meta 的竞争经验——他们总是在抄袭我们的产品。所以我们会觉得，我们真的不应该谈论我们在做什么，即使在内部也一样。而我认为那是一个巨大的错误，因为领导者最重要的职责之一，至少是我自己最重要的职责之一，就是与团队沟通，并在公司内部促成这种沟通。这对文化非常重要，对推进愿景非常重要，对确保我们能从全公司获得最好的创意也非常重要。所以，我们做出的最大改变之一，就是从内部极度保密、各自为政的公司，变成一家对自己正在做的事更加透明、开放的公司。

You know, when we were starting the company, we were so focused on secrecy. We were incredibly secretive about the products that we were working on. Even inside the company, people really wouldn't talk with each other about what they were working on. And obviously there was an enormous amount of fear, partially informed by our competitive experience with Meta, which was always knocking off our products. So we really should not, you know, talk about what we're building, even internally. And I think that was a huge mistake, because one of the most important things that leaders do, or at least that I do, is communicating with our team and facilitating that inside the company. It's so important to the culture. It's so important to furthering the vision. It's so important to making sure we get the best ideas from all over the company. So one of the biggest things we've changed has gone from being like a very secretive, siloed company internally to one that is way more transparent and open about what we're working on.

就是这样。所以你们一开始总是保密，你什么都不想说。

That's it. So you were always secretive at the beginning. You just didn't want to say anything.

我们不想公开说任何东西。我们也不想在内部说任何东西。我们真正关注的是我们的用户。只要用户满意，我们就觉得，你知道，其他一切都会水到渠成。后来公司变大了，公司形象也提升了，对外沟通显然变得更加重要，对内沟通也一样，要让团队真正对齐。这意味着要在团队内部建立更多的信任，并且依靠大家不去分享我们正在做的所有有趣的东西。但这确实会在内部打造出一个更强大、更有凝聚力的团队。

We didn't want to say anything publicly. We didn't really want to say anything internally. Where we were really focused was on our customers. And as long as our customers were happy, we were like, 'You know, that will kind of take care of everything else.' And then as the company got bigger and the company's profile grew, it became much more important, obviously, to communicate externally, but also internally, to really align the team. So that comes with building a lot more trust inside the team and relying on folks not to share all the fun stuff we're working on. But it creates a much stronger and more cohesive team internally.

你之前说过，Meta 偷了一些东西。有人抄走你的东西时，最让你受伤的是什么？

What was the thing you said that, um, that Meta has stolen some stuff before? What was the thing that really hurt the most when someone took it?

与其说最受伤的是什么，倒不如说从最早的日子开始就有这种感觉。当时我们四个人住在我爸爸家里做 Snapchat，而他们做了一个叫 Poke 的仿制品，还把它放在 Facebook 顶部。所以每次打开应用，它都会让你去下载 Poke。马克·扎克伯格录下了自己说“Poke”这个词的声音，那就是这个应用的提示音。我们当时就想：“哇，这人真的很关注 Snapchat 啊。”所以，我觉得很早就明白，即使我们是一个这么小的团队——就我们四个人，可能五个，在我爸爸家里工作——这样一个大公司却如此关注我们在做的事，这让我们真的觉得，必须保护我们的创意，至少在把它们交给我们社区之前。

It's not so much what hurt the most, just from the earliest days. I think there were four of us living in my dad's house working on Snapchat when they created a ripoff called Poke and put it at the top of Facebook. So every time you opened the app, it told you to download Poke. Mark Zuckerberg recorded himself saying the word 'Poke.' That was the notification sound for the app. And we were like, 'Wow, this guy's really into Snapchat.' So I think just learning so early on that even as such a tiny team — just four of us working out of my dad's house, maybe five of us — such a big company was so focused on what we were doing made us really feel like we needed to protect our ideas, at least until we shipped them to our community.

你的商业偶像是谁？

Who's your business idol?

哇。我觉得我的商业偶像是史蒂夫·乔布斯。我是说，从小到大，我墙上都贴着“Think Different”的海报。我卧室墙上甚至有那种 G3 Mac 塔式机的海报。所以对我来说，史蒂夫真的给了我不可思议的启发，而且，嗯，是的，那个故事总是非常非常深刻地……

Wow. I think my business idol was Steve Jobs. I mean, that's who, growing up, I had the 'Think Different' posters on my wall. I even had the posters of like the G3 Mac tower on my bedroom wall. So I think for me, Steve was just such an incredible inspiration and, um, yeah, that story is always really, really deeply...

他身上的什么让你如此钦佩？

What was it about him that you just admired so much?

他非常关心设计，他在意事物真正运作的方式。对吧？所以我觉得他真的向人们展示了，如果你想要创造惊人的东西或设计惊人的东西，不仅仅是要做出好看的东西，更是要做出运作优雅的东西。而在我看来，这真的很难做到。他对此的执着，对我来说真的非常鼓舞人心。

That he cared so deeply about design, that he cared enough about the way things actually worked. Right? So I think he really showed people that if they wanted to build amazing things or design amazing things, it wasn't just about making something that looked beautiful; it was about making something that worked beautifully. And that to me — that is so hard to do. And his commitment to doing that was just incredibly inspiring to me.

你知道吗，史蒂夫·乔布斯多次说过，他的主要目标是创造能够增强人性的技术。你觉得你也有类似的目标吗？

You know, Steve Jobs said many times that his main goal was to create technology that enhanced humanity. Do you feel like that's a similar goal for you there?

是的。我们的目标是让计算更有人性。所以这听起来确实与那些早期的理想一致。

Yeah. Our goal is to make computing more human. So it certainly sounds aligned with some of those early ideals.

而且，我觉得纵观历史——想想斯图尔特·布兰德和《全球概览》。那些在计算机发展初期就投身其中的人，真的把计算机视为人类的加速器、人类的工具，并且以这样的方式谈论它们。所以，在最理想的情况下，计算让我们所有人都变得更好。

But also, I mean, I think throughout history—think about Stewart Brand and the Whole Earth Catalog. People who were working on computers in the very early days really viewed them as accelerants for humanity, as tools for humanity, and talked about them in that way. So at its best, computing makes all of us better.

有没有哪次成功，感觉并没有你预想的那么好？

What's a success that didn't feel as good as you expected?

你知道，对我们来说，人们总是谈论公司上市这件事，对吧？我们会看到很多照片和视频——彩纸飘落，大家敲钟，诸如此类。我记得我当时见了一个朋友，因为在我们上市前，我去和一群上市公司 CEO 聊过，问了很多问题。我朋友说：‘无论如何，千万别要彩纸。告诉他们不要彩纸，因为从那天起，经营一家上市公司会很难。每次公司出现小波折或问题，他们就会把那张彩纸照片翻出来。’让我觉得特别冷静的一点是，很多人把 IPO 看作终点，对吧？但在很多方面，它其实是公司一个全新阶段的开始——一种完全不同的管理和沟通方式。所以对我来说，这个里程碑通常被视为成功，但它伴随着如此多的新责任和变化。

You know, I think for us, people always talk about taking the company public, right? And we'd see all these photos and videos—everyone with the confetti coming down, ringing the bell, all that kind of thing. I remember I was meeting with a friend of mine, because before we went public, I went and talked to a bunch of public company CEOs to ask a bunch of questions. And one of my friends was like, 'Whatever you do, do not get the confetti. Tell them no confetti, because every single day from there on out, it's hard building a public company. Every single time there's a hiccup or a problem with the company or whatever, they're going to put that confetti photo up.' And what was very interesting for me was how sobering that was. Because I think so many people view an IPO as an end, right? But in so many ways, it's actually the beginning of a totally different phase for the company—a totally different way of managing and communicating about the company. So for me, that milestone is typically viewed as a success, but it comes with so many new responsibilities and so many changes.

最后一个快问快答。如果必须在马克·扎克伯格和杰夫·贝索斯之间选一个人合伙做生意，你会选谁？

Last quickfire. If you had to go into business with Mark Zuckerberg or Jeff Bezos, who would it be?

杰夫。

Jeff.

为什么？

Why?

呃，因为我们不喜欢马克。你知道吗？我在创业初期，杰夫对我非常好。我记得我和杰夫开一个高管会议——大概关于我们和亚马逊的合作关系——会议快结束时，他让其他人都走了，但他留了下来和我谈话。当时公司正面临很多艰难挑战，而我很年轻，正在学着怎么经营公司。他对我说：‘埃文，别担心，只管专注你正在做的事，你会做得很好的。’我当时想，哇，他愿意花时间主动来鼓励我，这真的很鼓舞人心，我一直铭记至今。我后来遇到其他创始人时，经常想起这件事。创办公司不容易，他这样主动鼓励我，真的非常有力量。你知道吗，我觉得在创业者社区里，大家非常乐于合作，每个人都愿意互相帮助，但同时也存在竞争。不过人们确实真心想互相帮助。有些行业就不是这样。但如果是像杰夫帮助一个需要帮助的年轻创业者——那就是没人真正看到的、幕后发生的特别之事，对吧？我认为这可能是科技行业最好的地方。我是说，我在经营公司时确实亲身经历过。我非常幸运，当初对经营公司一无所知。所以我真的非常依赖一路上遇到的那些了不起的导师，他们愿意帮忙，或者在我有问题时非常及时地回应。所以我认为，至少对我来说，这可能是整个行业最好的部分。

Um, because we don't like Mark. You know what? Jeff was really kind to me when I was starting the business. I remember I was in a big executive meeting with Jeff—about our Amazon relationship or something like that—and towards the end of the meeting, he excused everybody, but he stayed behind with me. The company was going through a bunch of difficult challenges at the time, and I was really young, just trying to learn how to build the company. And he was like, 'Evan, just don't worry about it. Just stay focused on what you're doing. You're going to do great.' And I was like, wow, for him to go out of his way to take that time to connect with me and encourage me like that—it was a really inspiring thing, and something I've held with me to this day. I think about that a lot when I meet other founders. It's not easy building a company, and for him to go out of his way to encourage me like that was really powerful. You know, I find that with the entrepreneurial founder community, it's so collaborative. Everyone wants to help each other, but there's also competition. But people really want to help each other. In some industries, that doesn't happen as much. But if it's, you know, like Jeff helping a young entrepreneur who needs help—that's kind of the special thing that no one really sees, that goes on behind the scenes, right? I think it is probably the best thing about the technology industry. I mean, I certainly experienced it building our business. I had the great fortune of knowing absolutely nothing about running a company. So I really relied on all the incredible mentors I met along the way, who were willing to help out or were super responsive if I had a question. And so I do think that is probably, at least for me, the best part of the industry as a whole.

那么，你是在哪里长大的？

So, and where did you grow up?

呃，我在洛杉矶长大。对，我由两位律师抚养长大。我妈妈是税务律师，爸爸处理很多商业诉讼。我有两个妹妹，都比我聪明得多。而且，你知道，有两位律师就意味着晚餐桌上的对话会非常热烈，而且当然——

Uh, I grew up in Los Angeles. Yeah, I was raised by two lawyers. My mom was a tax lawyer. My dad did a lot of business litigation. I had two younger sisters, both way smarter than me. And I think, you know, having two lawyers meant for very spirited dinner table conversations, and certainly...

比如辩论？

Like debates?

对，辩论。而且从不回避冲突，对吧？我是说，律师们其实，某种程度上以冲突为食。所以，在一个真正追求智识诚实和正直的环境中长大，真的很有意思。我们以前管我爸爸叫百科全书，直到谷歌出现，把他从那个无所不知的宝座上挤了下来。他对历史和经济学特别着迷。所以在我们家，成长过程中餐桌上总有非常精彩而激烈的辩论。

Yeah, debates and never adverse to conflict, right? I mean, lawyers actually, in some ways, feed off conflict. So it was really interesting to grow up in an environment that had a real commitment to intellectual honesty and integrity. We used to call my dad the encyclopedia before Google came along and sort of unseated him from that position of knowing so much about the world. He was really passionate about history and economics. So there would be really great and intense debates around the table in our home growing up.

但这教会了你什么呢？

And what does that teach you, though?

呃，你知道，我认为它在我很小的时候就教会了我一件事，就是在非常艰难的对话中坚持自己立场的能力。我记得在我和我妻子刚认识的时候——我们和我爸一起吃晚饭，我正和他辩论，我妻子就说：‘你这是在干什么呀？’我说：‘不，这就是……这就是我们的爱的语言，我们在聊天呢。’不过，我觉得身处一个鼓励这种氛围的环境真的很有趣，因为那种智识上的好奇心和激烈的辩论，正是产生好想法的核心所在。这真的非常宝贵。

Uh, you know, I think one of the things it taught me at a very young age was the ability to stand my ground in really tough conversations. I mean, I remember when I was getting to know my wife—we were all having dinner with my dad, and I'm just debating with him, and my wife was like, 'What are you doing?' And I was like, 'No, this is—this is our love language. We're having a conversation.' But I think it was really fun to be in an environment that encouraged that, because that sort of intellectual curiosity and spirited debate is so much at the heart of creating good ideas. And that's really valuable.

是的，我从来没这样想过。因为生活有时候就是要进行那些艰难的对话，同时也要能坚持自己的立场。我认为这在某种程度上就是优秀领导者和伟大领导者的区别。而这种能力必须来自童年。

Yeah, I've never thought of it that way. Because you have to—life is sometimes about having those hard conversations and also being able to stand your ground. I think that's in some ways what separates good leaders from great leaders. And that has to come from childhood.

但同时也要培养一种在自己错了的时候愿意保持开放心态的意愿，对吧？我认为对智识诚实的重视之所以如此重要，是因为餐桌上的目标是找到正确的答案，而不是证明自己是对的。那是一种非常有趣的动态。

But also to develop, at the same time, a willingness to be open-minded when you're wrong, right? And I think that's where that focus on intellectual integrity is so important, because the dinner table was about getting to the right answer, not being right. And that was a really interesting dynamic.

所以你可能会很固执？

So you can be stubborn?

我可以是。对，我可以很固执。

I can be. Yeah, I can be.

但如果你知道自己错了，你会承认错误，还是会坚持？

But if you know you're wrong, do you admit you're wrong, or do you hold?

对我来说，整个关键就在于，一旦你发现自己错了，你能多快改变想法。

To me, the entire game is how quickly can you change your mind once you find out you're wrong.

举个例子。你是什么意思？

So give me an example. What do you mean?

呃，我觉得，比如在我们公司开发新产品时，我可能会对某个功能非常坚持。但只要有人证明我错了，或者让我看到客户想要的是别的东西，或者有人有更好的想法……

Uh, I think, for example, when we're working on a new product in our company, I might be really holding my ground on a feature. But as soon as somebody proves I'm wrong, or shows me our customers are looking for something different, or has a better idea...

我们一直想奖励的，是你承认自己错了并做出改变的速度。对我们公司来说，我们不一定在找永远正确的人，因为永远正确是不可能的。实际上，很多时候，就算世界上最聪明的人也会犯错。所以问题在于你能多快适应和改变？你能多快说出“你说得完全对，我错了，我们换个方向”？通过奖励这种行为，你会拥有一个成长和学得飞快的组织。相比之下，那些奖励“一次就对”的组织，谁在乎呢？我们追求的是最快找到正确答案。

What we always try to reward is the speed at which you admit you're wrong and change. For us in our company, we're not necessarily looking for folks who are always right, because it's impossible to always be right. In fact, quite a lot of the time, even the smartest people in the world are wrong. So the question is how quickly can you adapt and change? How quickly can you say, 'You're totally right, my mistake, let's change direction.' By rewarding that behavior, you have an organization that grows and learns very quickly. Compared to an organization that rewards people who are right the first time. Who cares, right? We're trying to get to the right answer the fastest.

没错——对，我以前也做过一次心理治疗，对吧？

That is — yeah, I had some therapy once, right?

只做过一次。我其实觉得所有创始人都应该做心理治疗。我完全这么认为。一般来说，大多数人都应该接受心理治疗。他们可以的，但我做得很多。治疗师跟我说，当你在争论时，你是在试图赢。我说：“什么意思？”他说：“嗯，和家人、朋友，也许和伴侣在一起时，你感觉你总是在试图赢。”我说：“是啊，争论不就是为了赢吗？”他说：“不，你是在试图找到解决办法，试图找到答案。争论时不应该有赢家。”这和你说的完全一样。而且我觉得最有魅力的，是承认自己错了。

Just once. I actually think all founders should have therapy. I totally think they should. Just in general, most people should have therapy. They can, but I had it quite a lot. The therapist said to me that when you argue, you're trying to win. I said, 'What do you mean?' He said, 'Well, with your family, with your friends, maybe with your partner, it feels like you're trying to always win.' I said, 'Yeah, isn't that the point?' They said, 'No, you're trying to find the solution. You're trying to find the answer. No one should be a winner when you're arguing.' And that's exactly what you're saying. And I think the most attractive thing is admitting when you're wrong.

我觉得这可能是最有力量的事，尤其是如果你能很快做到的话。

I think there's probably nothing more powerful, especially if you can do it quickly.

尤其是如果能很快做到的话。不过你提到治疗很有意思。我父母在我大概 15、16 岁的时候离婚了。在那过程中，我开始做心理治疗。那是我人生中最好的事之一，因为在那之前，我能够对自己、对我的世界观做很多功课——你知道，我们创立 Snapchat 时我才 20 岁。所以在父母离婚和创建 Snapchat 之间的那段日子里，我真的对自己做了大量功课，我觉得这为后来应对经营公司的各种挑战做了很好的准备。

Especially if you can do it quickly. But it's funny you mentioned therapy. My parents ended up divorcing when I was around 15 or 16. As part of that, I started therapy. And that was one of the greatest things that ever happened to me, because I was able to do so much work on myself and my worldview and all that sort of stuff before — you know, we started Snapchat when I was 20. So in that intervening period, between my parents divorcing and creating Snapchat, I was able to do a huge amount of work on myself, which I think was well timed going into all the challenges of growing a business.

在洛杉矶长大。所以你有你的姐妹们、你、你的父母——童年快乐吗？

Growing up in LA. So you had your sisters, you, your parents — happy childhood?

还有一只狗。

And a dog.

还有一只狗。狗叫什么名字？

And a dog. What was the dog called?

沃尔特。

Walter.

我喜欢沃尔特这个名字。

Love Walter.

我也是。

Me too.

童年很幸福。

Happy childhood.

是的。总体来说，我喜欢阅读，喜欢设计，还非常迷电脑。我成长过程中，父母不让我看电视，直到我大概青春期还是什么的。

Yeah. Generally speaking, I loved reading. I loved design. Got very into computers. My parents didn't let me watch television when I was growing up, until I was like a teenager or something like that.

等一下。所以……

Hang on a second. And so...

完全不看。

Nothing.

没有电视。

No television.

为什么？

For what reason?

他们想让我把时间花在其他事情上。这是他们给我的巨大礼物，因为我最终去阅读和动手做东西了。我超爱乐高——真的，你能想到的都有。我会用想象力去创造东西。我会用家里的家具在客厅搭一艘船，然后想象自己出海远航之类的。不好的一面是社交上的挑战，因为人们通过电视、通过媒体连接。那是我们社会中一个巨大的连接点，而拥有共同的故事是人与人认识并交朋友的重要方式。所以和那些什么都看、在学校里讨论的同学相比，错过这个连接点让我有点吃力。但现在回头看，花大量时间阅读、学习和想象的收益是巨大的。直到中学，我才爱上电脑。午餐时间我会去机房。我特别喜欢设计。我很想要一台自己的电脑。我妈妈说：“如果你自己把它组装起来，你就能拥有一台电脑。”我说：“好，挑战接受。”所以……

They wanted me to spend my time doing other things. That was an enormous gift they gave me, because I ended up reading and building stuff. I got super into Lego — I mean, you name it. I would use my imagination to create things. I'd build a ship in the living room out of our furniture and, you know, hit the high seas, that kind of thing, using my imagination. The flip side was the social challenge, because people connect through television, through media. It's a huge point of connection in our society, and having shared stories is a really important way people get to know each other and make friends. So missing that point of connection was hard with my peers, who were watching all sorts of stuff and talking about it at school. But in hindsight, the benefit of spending a lot of time reading, learning, and imagining was massive. And it wasn't until middle school that I fell in love with computers. I'd go at lunch and be in the computer lab. I was really into design. I really wanted my own computer. My mom was like, 'You can have your own computer if you build it.' And I was like, 'Okay, challenge accepted.' So...

我爸妈就像在给我一些零碎的零件——比如“你去弄这个”“你去玩这个”。我就说：“好。”

My parents were like giving me silly parts — like, get this, play with this. I was like, 'Okay.'

你在组装电脑？当时你多大？

You're building a computer. What age is this?

应该是中学——六年级或七年级，大概那样。

It must have been in middle school — sixth or seventh grade, something like that.

对英国观众来说，那是多大年纪？

So what age is that for a UK audience?

那有多大？大概 11 或 12 岁，差不多那样吧。

What is that? That's like 11 or 12, something like that, maybe.

所以你父母说：“你可以有一台电脑，但你必须自己组装。”

So your parents said, 'You can have a computer, but you have to build it.'

是的。他们带我去了 Fry Electronics（一家电子产品商店），我们挑了主板之类的东西。那对我来说是一个真正的突破，一个非常激动人心的时刻——不仅拥有自己的电脑，而且意识到组装电脑并不难。我们生活中很多时候会害怕那些看起来复杂或困难的事情。当你真正有机会自己动手去组装或创造时，那种幻觉就消失了。你会意识到自己有能力做很多以前觉得自己做不到的事。

Yep. They took me to Fry Electronics — that's the electronics store — and we picked out the motherboard and that kind of thing. That was a real breakthrough for me, a really exciting moment to have my own computer, but also to realize that building a computer wasn't that hard. So many times in our lives, we're afraid of things that appear complicated or seem difficult. When you actually have a chance to build it yourself or try creating it yourself, that illusion sort of disappears. You realize you're capable of so many things that maybe you didn't feel you were able to do before.

等一下。你打开电脑，但你怎么知道从哪里开始？

So hang on. You opened up the computer, but how would you even know where to begin?

我学校有一位计算机老师。我上过一门关于自己组装电脑的暑期课程，他非常慷慨地帮了我。

I had a teacher at school who was the computer teacher. I'd taken a summer course on building your own computer, and he very generously helped me out.

你小时候觉得自己是个局外人吗？

Do you feel like an outsider growing up?

在某些方面是的。在另一些方面，我又是彻头彻尾的圈内人。我很幸运，在一个优渥的家庭长大，就读于洛杉矶一所精英私立学校。所以在很多方面，我绝对是圈内人。但在另一些方面……

In some ways, yeah. In others, I was like the ultimate insider. I was really fortunate to grow up in a privileged family and attend an elite private school in Los Angeles. So in many of those ways, I was absolutely an insider. I think in other ways...

例如，不被允许看电视，有时候我像个局外人。

For example, not being allowed to watch TV, I was sometimes an outsider.

但你提到，在学校里，有些时候社交方面可能有点棘手。

But you mentioned school maybe had been a bit tricky at times in social situations.

是的，确实。我是个挺书呆子气的孩子。我花很多时间读书和做东西，而不是看电视。我记得上幼儿园时，我父母帮我给体育老师写了一封信，因为我太害怕上体育课了——太多人跑来跑去，球飞来飞去。我吓坏了。我真的和父母坐下来，给体育老师写了封信，说：“我就是还上不了体育课。”

Yeah, definitely. I was a pretty nerdy kid. I spent a lot of time reading books and making stuff, not a lot of time watching TV. I remember in kindergarten, my parents helped me write a letter to the PE teacher because I was too afraid to do PE — there were too many people running around and balls flying around. I was terrified. I literally sat down with my parents, wrote a letter to the PE teachers, and said, 'I'm just not ready for PE.'

我想玩的时候自然会玩。我的父母，愿上帝保佑他们，支持我这么做，也支持我用这种方式沟通。好笑的是，我们现在有三个孩子就读于我自己小时候上过的学校，而且体育老师还在那里。几乎每天我送孩子上学时，她都在，我就说：‘嘿，早上好。’那种创伤后应激障碍——我可不想再去玩躲避球了。谢天谢地，我克服了那种恐惧。我花了很多时间读书，而不是在外面疯跑。

I'll play when I'm ready. My parents, God bless them, supported me in doing that and communicating that way. It's hilarious—three of our kids now go to the school I went to growing up, and the PE teacher is still there. Almost every day when I drop our kids off at school, she's there, and I'm like, 'Hey, good morning.' The PTSD—I don't want to go play dodgeball. Thankfully, I was able to overcome that fear. I spent a lot of time reading, not a ton of time running around.

不过你去了斯坦福。

You went to Stanford though.

是的。

Yeah.

你在斯坦福，和朋友们一起玩，突然冒出这个做 App 的想法。给我讲讲 Snapchat 的起源故事吧。

You're at Stanford, hanging out with your friends, and you come up with this idea to create an app. Tell me the origin story of Snapchat.

Bobby 在我们兄弟会里住我对门。我们一起做过很多项目，其中有一个叫 Future Freshman，是帮人申请大学的。结果一败涂地——只有我妈妈用了它，尽管当时我们俩的兄弟姐妹都在申请大学。所以算不上成功。我们又想其他点子。我的朋友 Reggie 说：‘要是能发一张阅后即焚的照片会怎么样？’我们觉得这个想法很有意思。于是我画出了 App 的框架，当时叫 Peekaboo。我们做了个原型——就是那个幽灵。Peekaboo，boo，像个鬼一样。

Bobby had lived across the hall from me in our fraternity. We'd started working on a bunch of projects together, one of which was called Future Freshman. It was designed to help people get into college. It was a total disaster—only my mom used it, even though both of our siblings were applying to college at the time. So that wasn't a great success. We started working on other ideas. My friend Reggie said, 'What if you could send a photo that disappeared?' We thought that was interesting. So I sketched out the frames of the app. It was called Peekaboo at the time. We built a prototype—it's the ghost. Peekaboo, boo, like a ghost.

于是你有了这个想法，开始和伙伴们一起开发和搭建。你一直觉得：这就是我想做的事。我想当创业者，想开一家公司。

So you came with this idea, started creating it, started building it with your buddies. You always thought: this is what I want to do. I want to be an entrepreneur. I want to create a business.

我想 Bobby 和我都不喜欢给别人打工。我们俩都很幸运。他在一家支付公司工作，我也有一个 IT 实习机会，那是很棒的体验。我们当时在做一些网站，不是跑在智能手机上，而是跑在那种按键式电话上——为印度开发用按键电话建网站的方式。这很酷，因为我意识到，只要三四个人组成的团队，就能构建并发布软件给全世界使用。这真的让我备受鼓舞。所以我觉得，这些因素加起来——不想给别人打工、想自己构建东西、并且意识到软件可以轻松规模化并分发给全球用户——非常令人兴奋。而且 Bobby 和我就是喜欢一起工作。所以这一切促使我们去做 Snapchat。当我第一次把我当时叫 Peekaboo 的 Snapchat 拿到班上展示——那大概是我的一项毕业设计或课程项目——所有人都说：‘这讲不通。这行不通。你随时可以截图。照片根本不会消失。’但非常有意思的是，那个夏天当我们继续打磨它时，我们真的特别喜欢用 Snapchat 和朋友们互发照片。我们发明了一种新机制，能检测到有人截图。我们无法阻止截图，但至少能让你知道有没有人保存了你的照片。于是 Snapchat 成了人们相互交流的一种方式。这意味着我们转向了——我们把它叫作 Snapchat，并开始把它定位为视觉消息工具。我们加入了文字说明、涂鸦，以及你今天用到的各种功能。

I think Bobby and I really didn't like working for other people. We'd both been really fortunate. He had a job at a payments company. I had a job interning in IT, which was an amazing opportunity. We had been working on websites that would run not on smartphones, but on those touchtone phones—ways to build websites for India using touchtone phones. That was cool because I realized that with a team of just three or four people, you could build and ship software to the world. That was really inspiring to me. So I think that combination—not wanting to work for other people, wanting to build stuff, and realizing that software could be scaled and deployed to people all over the world pretty easily—was really exciting. And Bobby and I just loved working together. So all of those things combined led us to work on Snapchat. When I first presented Snapchat, or what was called Peekaboo at the time, to my class—it was one of my senior projects, or junior projects, whatever—everyone said, 'This makes no sense. This isn't going to work. You can always take a screenshot. The photos don't disappear.' But what was very interesting was that, after that summer as we continued to work on it, we really loved using Snapchat to just send photos back and forth to our friends. We invented a new mechanism to detect when somebody took a screenshot. We couldn't prevent it, but we would at least let you know if somebody saved your photo. And Snapchat became a way that people started talking to each other. That meant we pivoted—we called it Snapchat and started talking about it as visual messaging. We added captions, drawing, and all the sorts of things you use today.

产品上线的那一刻，是什么感觉？

When you launch it, what was that moment like?

我觉得很可能相当平淡。发布 App 就像按下一个按钮。

I mean, it's probably very anticlimactic. Launching an app is like clicking a button.

是啊。就是按个按钮。

Yeah. But that clicking a button.

但难道不是有那么一刻吗——我记得我们刚上线的时候——

But isn't there that moment—I remember when we first launched—

我有一家糖果公司。我们第一次上线官网时，我记得和哥们儿坐在一起，心里想：‘我们上线了。开始吧。’结果什么都没发生。我心想：‘好吧，总该有点什么吧。’对我来说也挺平淡的，但我至今仍像昨天一样记得那一刻。

I have a sweets company. When we first launched our website, I remember sitting with my buddy and just being like, 'We launched it. Here we go.' And then nothing happened. I was like, 'Okay, surely something's meant to happen.' It was anticlimactic for me as well, but I still remember that moment like it was yesterday.

我记得的是 App 生命周期稍后的一些发布时刻，大家会围在电脑前看数据面板。因为对我来说，发布的乐趣在于社区的反馈。那是最好的部分。

The launches I remember are a bit later into the life of the app, where everyone would cluster around a computer and watch the dashboard. Because to me, the fun of a launch is the community feedback. That's the best part.

那么，你是从哪个时刻决定从斯坦福退学的？

So, what was the moment you decided to drop out of Stanford?

我当时在数控加工课教室的后面。

I was in the back of my CNC machining class.

所以你还记得这一刻？说来听听。

So, you remember this moment? Here we go.

哦，对，对。我记得这一刻。我坐在数控加工课教室后面，一遍又一遍地刷新富国银行的 App，等着我们投资人那 48.5 万美元入账。当钱到账时，我走到老师面前说：‘非常抱歉，我必须退学了。’

Oh, yeah. Yeah. I remember this moment. I was in the back of my CNC machining class. I was refreshing the Wells Fargo app over and over again, waiting for the $485,000 from our investors to hit the account. And when it landed, I went up to the teacher and said, 'I'm so sorry. I have to drop out of school.'

不会吧。你不会就这么走过去的。你不可能马上走上去。

Get out of here. You didn't do that. You didn't walk up straight away.

哦，是的。我说：‘对不起，打扰一下，Craig。其实，我必须退学了。’然后 Craig——我的意思是，愿上帝保佑 Craig——因为我后来为了拿学位，在 2018 年又回去上了同一门数控加工课。

Oh, yeah. Yeah. I said, 'I'm sorry. Excuse me, Craig. Actually, I have to drop out of school.' And Craig—I mean, God bless Craig—because I went back and took that same CNC machining class again later to get my degree in 2018.

你的冒险胃口可真大。你的父母都是非常出色的律师。你是和他们一起长大的，对吧？他们是你的父母，你钦佩他们。他们定下了严格的家规——你必须努力工作，不看电视、不碰屏幕，什么都不行。我想他们会说：‘你必须上大学，必须努力，成为一名律师，你得接受所有这些教育才能当律师。’但你做了什么——你很聪明，受过教育，有想法，进了最好的大学之一，然后你说你想为了这个想法退学。而且我们都知道，大多数创业公司都会失败。那你和父母的那次对话是什么样的？

That's a wild appetite for risk. Your parents are these incredible lawyers. You've grown up with them, right? So, they're your parents. You admire them. They have kind of these strict rules—you have to work hard, no TV, no screens, nothing at all. I imagine they were like, 'You got to go to university, you got to push and become a lawyer, you have to go through all that education to become a lawyer.' But then what you've done—you're smart, you're educated, you have ideas, you've gone into one of the best colleges, and then you're saying you want to drop out for this idea. And as we know, most businesses fail. So what was your conversation with your parents?

嗯，我觉得有意思的是，你刚才描述的画面风险其实很低，对吧？我刚离开学校。我有机会住在父亲家里，在他家里办公。而且我上过一所非常好的大学，所以如果项目没成，我也不担心以后找不到工作。

Well, I think it's funny because what you described paints a picture of very little risk, right? I was just out of school. I had the opportunity to live in my dad's house and work out of my dad's house. I had gone to a really great university, so I wasn't worried about being able to get a job later if it didn't work out.

我觉得，这几乎是承担巨大风险的完美条件，因为最坏情况下的损失微乎其微。我觉得创业者有时会面临一个挑战——尤其是随着人年纪渐长，有了家庭、孩子等责任之后，冒险就变得难得多。但对我来说，做一件自己充满热情的事似乎是理所当然的。而且老实说，我觉得对我而言，更多的是我们对投资人的责任。他们投了 48.5 万美元，对我们来说就像无穷无尽。我们当时想，我们再也不用融资了。这对我们来说太不可思议了——我们还能雇用两个朋友。那时候，我们确实有责任把 100% 的时间都花在创建公司上。

I mean, I think it was almost the perfect circumstance to take a huge risk because the downside was minimal at best. I think one of the challenges we face as entrepreneurs — and certainly as folks get later into their lives and have responsibility with family, children, etc. — is that it gets much harder to take a risk. But for me, it seemed obvious to work on something I was passionate about. And I think for me it was much more about the responsibility, frankly, that we had to our investors. I mean, they had invested $485,000, which to us was like infinity. We were like, we will never need to raise money again. I mean, this was extraordinary for us — we were able to hire two of our friends. And we really had a responsibility at that point to focus 100% of our time on building the company.

我觉得 Snapchat 增长太快了。我记得第一次下载它的时候就想，这太疯狂了，然后它就像野火一样蔓延开来。那是 2013 年前后，每天有几亿条 Snap 被发出。增长这么快——你当时预料到了吗？

I mean, Snapchat grew so quickly. I remember downloading it for the first time and just being like, this is insane, and it was spreading like wildfire. This was around 2013, hundreds of millions of snaps were being sent every day. I mean, the growth was so quick — were you expecting that?

你知道吗，我们自己并不觉得快。而且很多方面，Snapchat 的增长其实比传统社交媒体慢，因为社交媒体是广播导向的，而 Snapchat 是消息导向的。所以它的增长会更慢，因为你接入的是一个更小的网络——只有你的亲密朋友和家人，不一定是 2000 个你不太认识的人。所以我其实记得当时压力很大，心想，天哪，我希望它能增长、能更快一点，因为 Snapchat 作为一个消息平台，本质上就不会像广播式社交媒体那样快速增长。

You know, it didn't feel quick for us. And in a lot of ways, actually, the growth of Snapchat was slower than traditional social media, because social media is broadcast oriented. And Snapchat is messaging oriented. So it actually grows slower, because you're onboarding a smaller network — just your close friends and family, not necessarily 2,000 people you don't know very well. And so I actually remember feeling a lot of pressure that, oh gosh, I hope this can grow and grow faster, because the nature of Snapchat as a messaging platform means that it doesn't grow as fast as broadcast social media.

但 Snapchat 是怎么在你大学之外的人群中流行起来的？你当时在校外是怎么推广它的？

But how did Snapchat catch on to other people outside your college? How did you market it outside of that?

你知道吗？我们当时尝试推广，结果非常不成功。我真的去了圣莫尼卡一个叫第三街步行区的露天购物中心，发传单，上面写着：'你难道不想给朋友发送视觉消息吗？'当时我们把它宣传为比彩信快 10 倍，因为那时用短信发一张图片要花好几分钟，很疯狂。我们发明了一种可以非常快速发送图片的方式。所以我们就想用这种方式推广，结果人们都一脸茫然：'什么？你在说什么？'但是有一群朋友开始用它。我表哥也开始用了。他在橙县，夏天的时候和他的一些朋友一起用。随着我们学校里那些用它的朋友放假回到家乡，他们又分享给了自己的朋友。说到底，我觉得 Snapchat 真正能持续增长的唯一方式，就是朋友之间互相分享，或者分享给家人并教他们怎么用，因为 Snapchat 太不一样了。那是一种全新的视觉沟通方式，而人们并不熟悉一个打开就是相机、提示你用图片而不是文字来沟通的 app。

You know what? We tried to market it really unsuccessfully. So I literally went to an outdoor mall in Santa Monica called the Third Street Promenade. I would hand out flyers like, 'Don't you want to send visual messages to your friend?' At that time, we advertised it as 10 times faster than MMS, because sending a picture via text message at the time took like minutes. You know, it's crazy. And we invented a way that you could send pictures really quickly. So we would try to advertise it that way, and people are like, 'What? What are you talking about?' But a bunch of our friends started using it. My cousin started using it. He was in Orange County, and started using it with some of his friends over the summer. As all of our friends who had been using it at school went back home to their hometowns, they shared it with their friends. And ultimately, I think the only way that Snapchat has really grown consistently over time is just friends sharing it with other friends or with family members and teaching them how to use it, because Snapchat was so different. It was a new way of communicating visually. And people weren't familiar with an app that opened to the camera like that and prompted you to communicate with a picture instead of words.

从什么时候开始，你突然觉得：'哦，这会成。这事成了。'

When was the point where you suddenly went, 'Oh, this could be a thing. This is working.'

嗯，我想那是在大四学期中途。因为我坐在教室后排，不停刷新我们的那个小小的 Snap 计数器，它只显示已经发送了多少条 Snap。学年刚开始的时候，它只是偶尔加一。但到了学年中段，数字增加得非常快。每次我查看，可能又多了 100 条新 Snap 之类的。差不多就在那时候，我们意识到已经没钱付服务器账单了。我祖父母给我的 1 万美元已经花完了，鲍比和我也刷爆了信用卡。我爸说：'我可不会为别人发图片付费。你在说什么？'所以就在那时我们意识到：'好吧，我们有了一些势头，但现在得想办法付服务器账单了。'

Um, I think it was partway through my senior year of school, because I would sit in the back of my classes and refresh the little snap counter we had that just showed how many snaps were being sent. And early on in the year, it would kind of go up by one every now and then, but midway through the year, it was incrementing very quickly. So every time I'd check, maybe a hundred new snaps had been sent or something like that. And that was about the time that we realized we were running out of money to pay for the server bills. You know, my grandparents had given me $10,000 that I had spent. Bobby and I had maxed out the credit cards. My dad was like, 'I am not paying for people to send pictures. What are you talking about?' So that was really the point where we were like, 'Okay, we've got some momentum here, but now we have to figure out how to pay the server bill.'

所以，你是个大胆冒风险的人，还是会计算风险？

So, you're a huge risk taker, or is it calculated risk?

我会说，绝对是高度计算过的风险。

I would say definitely like highly calculated risk.

嗯。我在想别的风险，因为我看到的东西很有意思，对吧？你当初不愿意上体育课，你不喜欢它是因为觉得强度太大、内容太过分，但与此同时，你却愿意冒一个比上体育课更糟的风险。你懂我的意思吗？比如说……这是不是……我也不确定。体育课现在听起来也挺糟糕的，是吧？这就是我觉得最疯狂的地方，也最有意思——你愿意拿生活、事业、大学经历、别人的钱去冒险。你愿意冒这种险，却不愿意上体育课，因为你担心那些训练项目和高强度之类的东西。

Yeah. I'm thinking about other risk because what I see is so interesting, right? You wouldn't do PE. You didn't like that because you felt like that was too much, but at the same time, you're happy to take a risk, which is even worse than doing something like PE. Do you know what I mean? Like, but is it... I don't know. PE sounds pretty bad right now. Does it? That's what I find so mad, right? And so interesting is that you're happy to risk life, career, going to college, other people's money. You're happy to take that risk, but you won't go to a PE class because you're worried about the drills and the intensity and things like that.

嗯，我觉得你或许忽略了等式的另一边，那就是回报，对吧？上体育课的上限是什么，创建公司的上限又是什么？我觉得，如果你要承担风险，尤其是像我们这样，去做那款今年晚些时候要推出的 Spectacles 眼镜，那么深思熟虑地评估就非常重要。这已经是一项持续 12 年的大工程，风险巨大，但回报也极其巨大，而且我们拥有巨大的战略优势。所以，我觉得这就是一个非常深思熟虑、经过计算的风险的例证。

Um, I think you're maybe missing the other side of the equation, which is reward, right? What is the upside of PE class versus building a company? I think it's so important to very thoughtfully consider if you're going to take a risk, especially a risk like for us working on our Spectacles glasses that are coming out later this year. This has been a 12-year undertaking, enormous amount of risk, but also one where the upside is enormous and one where we have huge strategic advantages. So, I think that's an example of a very thoughtful, calculated risk.

你 25 岁就成为了全球最年轻的亿万富翁之一。那很年轻。生意增长中的那一面——财务那一面——对你来说有多重要？

You became one of the youngest billionaires in the world at age 25. That's young. How important is that side of growing a business to you — the sort of financial side?

嗯，这很有意思，对吧？钱越多，钱就越不重要。没错。我觉得对我来说最大的一个转折点，也是我真切感受到差别的时候，是我们的投资人——他们非常明智、体贴，我想是在公司估值达到大约 8 亿美元的时候——允许鲍比和我各自卖掉 1000 万美元的股票。

Well, it's interesting, right? The more money you have, the less important that becomes. Right. And I think the biggest step change for me, and when I really felt the difference, was our investors, really wisely and thoughtfully, I think, when the company was valued around $800 million or something like that, allowed Bobby and me each to sell $10 million worth of stock.

那一瞬间，经营一家公司的财务压力立刻消失了。我当时想：“好，我可以买房子、养家了，那些一直咬噬着你的东西，很早就被拿走了。”这又是一个例子，说明我们的投资人创造了这样的环境，让 Bobby 和我敢于承担更大的风险，真正为长期发展打造公司，并押下重注在 Snapchat 的未来上。对我来说，那才是真正感受到跨越式变化、如释重负的时刻。而一旦你觉得自己买得起房子、养得起家，剩下的都很棒、很有趣，是回馈社会的机会。但它不像第一次跨越那样根本——从住在爸爸家里，到能自己买房。那才是最大的差别。

And that immediately took the financial stress and pressure of growing a business off the table. I was like, “Okay, I can buy a home and provide for my family, and all those things that constantly gnaw at you were taken away very early on.” That's another example of our investors creating an environment where Bobby and I felt comfortable taking way more risk, really building the business for the long term, and making big bets on the future of Snapchat. For me, that was the moment I felt that step change and relief. Once you feel like you can buy a home and provide for your family, the rest is awesome and fun—an opportunity to give back. But it's not as fundamental as that first step change: from living in my dad's house to being able to buy a house. That was the big difference.

你说得对。当你能养家、买房、买机票的时候，钱是根本重要的。但在那之上，它其实并没有我们想象的那么重要，对吧？

You're right. Money is fundamentally important when you can provide for your family, buy a house, buy a plane ticket, whatever it is. But above that, it doesn't really mean anything as much as we think it means, right?

我觉得在那之上，随之而来的是巨大的责任。这是一种不同形式的压力。既然拥有了这种非凡的际遇，我认为它就伴随着回馈社会、带来正面影响的重大责任。一旦你养活了自己和家人，下一步就是：好，我要怎么用这一切去回馈我的社区，或者其他什么？

I think beyond that, it comes with a huge amount of responsibility. It feels like pressure in a different way. Having had this extraordinary opportunity, I do think it comes with a massive responsibility to give back and make a positive impact. Once you've provided for yourself and your family, the next step is: okay, how can I use this to give back to my community or whatever it is?

那你怎么保持野心？

And how do you stay ambitious?

我太热爱我所做的事情了。我喜欢服务我们的社区。我们的社区不断推动我做得更多、更好，做出更有趣、更有参与感的东西，帮助人们更好地与家人和朋友连接。对我来说，正是我们的社区提供了持续的动力和野心，让我去打造更好的服务。

I love what I do so much. I love serving our community. Our community constantly pushes me to do more, to do better, to make something more interesting or engaging that helps them connect better with their family and friends. For me, it's our community that provides that constant drive and ambition to build a better service.

你怎么平衡“成功创始人”和“好爸爸、好丈夫”这两个角色？

How do you balance being a successful founder but also being a good dad and a good husband?

我非常幸运，能有一位很棒的老婆和特别好的孩子。如果没有 Miranda——我的妻子——这一切几乎是不可能的。她是一位了不起的妈妈，对家庭非常投入，又非常支持我。我们整个婚姻里，或者说我们在一起的全部时间里，她没有一次批评过我工作太努力、回家太晚，或者累到精疲力尽。她从来没有给我制造那样的压力。所以，我觉得自己在做很重要的工作时，不用时刻被焦虑和压力笼罩。某种意义上，这真的很幸运，因为我们相遇时，双方都已经有了要求很高的职业。她当时已经有 Flynn 了，我记得我们认识时他大概两三岁。我想，我们是在彼此欣赏和尊重对方对家庭和工作的投入中，一起建立起生活的。这真的帮助打下了基础，让我们后来一起努力，找到了合适的平衡。但这非常难，而且有很多时候并不平衡。

I'm so fortunate to have a fabulous wife and really wonderful kids. I think it would be almost impossible without Miranda, who's my wife. She's just an extraordinary mom, so committed to our family and so supportive of me. There is not one time in our entire marriage—or our entire history of being together—that she has criticized me for working too hard, working too late, or being totally exhausted. She's never created that pressure for me. So I feel like I can do great work without constantly feeling that anxiety and pressure. It's in some ways really fortunate because we met each other when we both already had really demanding careers. She already had Flynn, who I think was two or three at the time when we met. And I think we sort of built our lives together, already admiring and respecting the intensity with which we approach our family and work. That was really helpful in creating a foundation where over time we've worked really hard together to create the right balance. But it's very difficult, and there are a lot of times where there isn't balance.

哪个更难——当爸爸，还是做 Snapchat？

What's harder—being a dad or building Snapchat?

我觉得它们的难是不同的。

I would say they're hard in different ways.

这么说真圆滑。

That's so diplomatic.

它们的难法不同，因为我是一个新手爸爸。

They're hard in different ways because I'm a new dad.

你的意思好像是说当爸爸难多了。

You're like, being a dad's way harder.

确实是。这个……你知道，当爸爸很难。我发现最棘手的地方——我以前没想到会这么难——是如何在“陪伴在场的好爸爸”和“经营我手上的公司”之间找到平衡。有时候真的很难。这很有意思，对吧？回到我们刚才讲的“风险与回报”，当爸爸那种让内心无限扩张的奇迹，回报感简直不可思议——远比做公司更值得。所以，也许正是这一点让一切平衡了。

It is. It's— you know, it's hard being a dad. What I'm finding tricky, which I didn't think was going to be hard, is finding the balance between being a present dad and a good dad, while also building the businesses I have. I find that tricky at times. It's interesting, right? Going back to our risk-reward conversation, the heart-expanding miracle of being a dad is just so unbelievably rewarding—far more rewarding than building a business. So maybe that's what balances it all out.

你父母不让你看电视，对吧？你对你的孩子也是这样吗？

Your parents didn't allow you to watch TV, right? Do you do the same with your kids?

有一些小小的例外。是的，我们允许看 YouTube，比如——我们家有个两岁小孩，特别不喜欢理发，所以我们就允许看 YouTube。看那种……你知道什么是 Bobcat 拖拉机吗？就是那种四轮滑移装载机？那就是他的最爱。

With some minor exceptions. Yeah, we allow YouTube during— we've got a two-year-old who really doesn't like getting his haircut, so we allow YouTube. YouTube videos of— do you know what a Bobcat tractor is? You know, those four-wheel skid steer tractors? That is his thing.

那是他的心头好。

That's his thing.

他生日的时候，我给他买了大概六种不同的 Bobcat 拖拉机玩具。所以，他要能坐着理发、看 Bobcat 拖拉机，我没意见。

I mean, for his birthday, I got him like six different Bobcat tractor toys. So he wants to sit and get his haircut and watch Bobcat tractors. And that's good by me.

那是唯一的规矩。

That's the only rule.

就是这样。只有在他理发的时候才可以。他可以看一点 YouTube。

That's it. You can do that when he's getting his haircut. He can watch some YouTube.

因为现在围绕社交媒体有这么多讨论。今天我们也聊到了社交媒体，以及 Snapchat 做得好的地方——它又回到了“连接”。我采访过一位很棒的学者，专门研究什么带来幸福。有一项幸福研究持续了差不多一百年，大概从 1920 年左右开始。Robert Waldinger 主持的。他们追踪了 917 个人的一生，每两年跟进一次。他们检查大脑、财务状况、人际关系——什么都查。这是有史以来最大的社会实验之一，持续了将近一百年。在这些人生命走到尽头时，他们发现，那些最根本幸福的人，并不是最富有、最成功或最有权势的人，而是与家人和朋友连接最好的人。就这么简单：我们连接得越多，就越幸福。今天才让我意识到，你们试图做的，是把社交媒体带回到它本来的样子——也就是连接。还有一句很棒的话，大意是说：社交媒体最初是一个我们都连接在一起的地方，但后来它变成了我们稍微有些疏离的地方。

Because there's this whole conversation around social media. Today we were talking about social media and what Snapchat is doing so well—it's about connection again. I interviewed a great guy about what creates happiness. There's a happiness study that lasted nearly a hundred years, starting around 1920 or something. Robert Waldinger ran it. They followed 917 people throughout life and checked in with them every two years. They checked their brains, their financial status, their connections—they checked everything. It was one of the biggest social experiments ever. It lasted nearly a hundred years. At the end of these people's lives, they realized the people who were fundamentally happiest weren't the ones who were richest, most successful, or had the most power. It's the ones who had the best connections with family and friends. And it's so simple: the more we're connected, the happier we are. It was kind of amazing today to realize what you guys are trying to do is bring back social media to what it was—which is about connection. And there's a great quote, something along the lines of: social media started as a place where we're all connected, but actually it's come to a place where we've slightly become disconnected.

你对此怎么看？

What are your views on that?

嗯，我认为技术有令人难以置信的力量，能帮助人们建立联系，建立更深层次的关系或维系关系，尤其是当我们与朋友或家人分离、相隔很远，或者我们旅行到地球的另一端，或者我们为了工作而搬家的时候。我们真的很想打造一项服务，来支持这些深层的关系和连接。我们在打造 Snapchat 时发现的一件事是：我们创建 Snapchat 的时候，社交媒体非常关注点赞和评论这类表现指标，你发布的每一条内容都会被永久保存。这改变了人们的分享方式。他们只分享生活中美好的部分，而不是另外那 99% 的部分——而那 99% 恰恰是我们与他人建立关系和连接的真正方式。我们发现，因为 Snapchat 强调的是即时分享当下，让人们表达当时的感觉，然后让那个瞬间消失，所以人们不会在意自己的外表，他们实际上是在表达那一刻的感受。当你能够看到朋友的脸、感受到他们的情绪、知道他们在哪里，而不是让他们打出一段文字发过来，那种即时的连接时刻无比珍贵，我们的服务就是围绕这一点打造的。过去几年让我特别欣慰的是，我们一直在自己的研究中发现，人们使用 Snapchat 时感到快乐，它改善了用户与朋友和家人的关系。而现在，由于人们对社交媒体及其影响如此关注，已经有一些独立研究——一项来自澳大利亚，一项来自荷兰，还有一项刚来自美国——显示 Snapchat 对人们的幸福感和人际关系有积极影响。这太棒了。我非常兴奋地看到独立研究者不仅关注这一点，而且用不同的方式研究这些服务。另一个令人担忧的现象是，他们发现 TikTok 或 Instagram 这样的服务对人们的幸福感并不好。我认为最重要的是，我们应该更深一层地看问题，而不是把所有东西混为一谈、统称为社交媒体——要真正理解我们使用的技术和服务如何影响我们的生活。所以，看到 Snapchat 正在产生的积极影响，我真的非常兴奋。这是我一直都知道的事情，但在研究中看到它，还是让人非常激动。

Well, I think technology has such incredible power to help people connect and build deeper relationships or sustain relationships, especially when we're separated, further apart from our friends or family, or we've traveled halfway around the world, or we've moved for a job. I think we really want to build a service that supports those deep relationships and connections. One of the things we found in building Snapchat is that we built it at a time when social media was very focused on performance metrics like likes and comments, where everything you posted was saved forever. That changed what people were sharing. They were only sharing the good parts of their lives, not the other 99%, which is actually how we build relationships and connections with one another. We found that because Snapchat was about sharing the moment in the moment, allowing people to express however they were feeling and then letting that moment go away, people weren't paying attention to how they looked. They were actually communicating how they felt in that moment. When you could see your friend's face and how they were feeling and where they were, rather than them typing out a paragraph via text message, that instantaneous moment of connection was incredibly valuable, and we built our service around that. What's been so gratifying for me over the last couple of years is that we always found in our own research that people felt happy when they used Snapchat, and that it improved their relationships with friends and family. But now, because there's so much interest in social media and its impact, there have been independent studies—one out of Australia, one out of the Netherlands, and another that just came out of the United States—that show Snapchat has a positive impact on people's well-being and their relationships. It's awesome. I was so excited to see independent researchers not only focus on that and study the services differently. The other concerning thing is that they found services like TikTok or Instagram were not good for people's well-being. I think it's so important that we look a layer deeper rather than bundling everyone up and calling everything social media—really understanding how the technologies and services we use impact our lives. I was really excited to see the positive impact Snapchat is making. It's something I've always known, but to see it in the research was really exciting.

你曾说过这样一番话：我希望未来的社交网络是当下的、面对面的。我认为我们今天面临的最大挑战之一是，我们太擅长与远方的人建立连接，却越来越不擅长与眼前的人、坐在餐桌对面的人建立连接。

What you said is this. My hope is that the social network of the future is right here in person. I think one of the biggest challenges we face today is that we have gotten so good at connecting with people who are really far away, but we have gotten less good at connecting with people right in front of us, across from us at the dinner table.

太棒了。我都没想到把这句纹在胸口。你挑引文可真会挑。我们团队经常把我自己说的话拿回来对我引用，但通常是为了指出我哪里说错了。所以，谢谢你。

Man, that's great. I didn't get that tattooed across my chest. You're so nice to pick good quotes. Our team quotes me back to myself a lot, but usually to point out when I'm wrong. So, thank you for that.

这真的太好了，因为生活其实就是围着餐桌展开的。我欣赏的一位伟人说过，你看一个人是否成功，就看他的餐桌是否变得更长。

But that's so good because life is really about being around the dinner table. There's a great person I admire who says you can tell when someone's successful that their dinner table gets longer.

我喜欢这句话。

I like that.

这就是我们应该真正衡量成功的方式，对吧？当你的餐桌变长，那意味着朋友、家人、爱人、你在乎的人。而我认为，因为社交媒体，我们有点忘了这一点。

And that's how we should really value success, right? When your dinner table gets longer, that's friends, that's family, that's loved ones, that's people you care about. And I think because of social media, we've kind of forgotten that.

可惜的是，我认为不只是社交媒体。今天计算机和智能手机的挑战在于，它们都是围绕单人体验设计的。无论是电脑、iPad 还是手机，都是人们单独使用的东西。它们只被设计成一个人使用。而我认为我们应该一起创造一些东西。所以这是一种真正的技术，它能退到一边，把人们聚在一起做事。这很有趣——我经常在孩子们身上看到这一点。围绕共同活动和共同体验建立联系非常容易。创造共同的体验是建立连接的最佳方式之一。然后我们会产生一些故事，可以互相分享或与朋友分享，这进一步加强了连接。所以我认为，如果技术能让人们获得计算的所有好处，同时又能一起分享这些体验，那就会让我们以完全不同的方式与技术相处——这种方式是关于一起活在当下，而不是埋头于设备。

And unfortunately, I don't think it's just social media. I think the challenge with computers today and smartphones today is that they're all designed around a single-player experience. Whether it's a computer or an iPad or a phone, it's all something that people use alone. They're only designed to be used by one individual. And I think we should build something together. So it's a technology that actually gets out of the way and brings people together to do things. And it's so funny—I see this all the time with our boys. It's so easy to build connections with other people around shared activities and shared experiences. Creating shared experiences is one of the best points of connection. And we generate stories that we can then share with one another or with our friends, which furthers that connection. So I think technology that enables people to get all the benefits of computing but share those experiences together really sets us up for a totally different way of relating to technology—one that's about being present together in the moment, rather than on a device.

如果你有一根魔法棒，并且由你来掌控，你会改变什么？

So if you had a magic wand and you were in control, what would you change with everything?

是整个吗——哇，那可是……

Like the whole—wow, that's...

对，不是指全部——我的意思是，魔法棒的话，我要玩大的。如果是世界和平，我有长长的一串愿望。但让我们把范围缩小到某个领域。就科技和社交媒体而言，你会重点关注什么？如果你有一根魔法棒，并且你说，这就是我们必须对它做的事，让它变正确、变好、让它成为一个快乐的地方，你会怎么做？

Yeah. Not the whole—I mean, magic wand, I'm going to go big here. If that's really like world peace, I got a long list. Let's channel it to some area. In terms of tech and social media, what would you focus on? What would you do if you had a magic wand and you said this is what we have to do with it to make it right, to make it good, to make it feel like a happy place?

我认为我会真正努力确保服务是围绕人与人之间的连接和关系进行优化，而不是围绕人与人之间的竞争。我认为人类喜欢竞争，但远比竞争更喜欢的是彼此连接。如果我们制造的工具让建立关系和连接比竞争更容易，那么我们与技术的关系就会更高效，或许也更有成果。

I think I would really try to make sure that services are optimizing around human connection and relationships rather than human competition. I think human beings like to compete, but far more than competing, they like to connect with one another. And if we make tools that make it easier to build relationships and connect than to compete, we will have a more productive and perhaps more fruitful relationship with technology.

你知道，我们在舞台上聊过规格参数，对吧？你说你花了 12 年才做出来。你对它的未来感到兴奋吗？

You know, when we were on stage, we were talking about specs, right? And you're saying it's taken 12 years to build it. Are you excited about the future of it?

我非常兴奋。我为这项技术投入了太多精力。我如此热爱它改变人们看待计算机的方式——不是把我们从世界里带走，而是让我们留在世界里。我对此非常兴奋。这是一个非常疯狂的想法。但很多你认为是有形的东西，都可以用眼镜里的光来制造。

I'm so excited. I've dedicated so much of my life to working on this technology. I'm so passionate about the way it's going to change the way people think about computers—not as something that takes us away from the world, but as something that keeps us in it. I'm so excited about this. This is like a really wacky idea. But so many of the things that you think about as physical things can be made out of light in glasses.

请给我解释一下，你是什么意思？

Explain to me, what do you mean?

嗯，关于智能眼镜和增强现实，最迷人的一点是：你可以想象如果我和你一起玩一个桌游。今天，那个桌游在世界某个地方生产，包装好，装上船，一路运到英国，然后拆箱拆封，最后在我们玩的时候放到桌上。智能眼镜的强大之处在于，我们可以用光来创造完全相同的物理体验。所以你我都能看到同一个桌游，移动棋子，一起体验那种玩乐——过去这需要实体物件，而现在它由光来呈现。随着它越来越普及，这种溢出效应会非常巨大。它提升了可及性——再也不需要把东西从世界另一端用船运过来。它也改善了对环境的影响，因为这些曾经是实体的东西，现在可以被分享，它们由光构成，而非实体物件。而对于很多企业来说，它还能改善经济性，因为你可以用更低的成本规模化你的想法。所以如果你这样想象世界，我们可以用更低的成本、更小的环境影响，给更多人更多的东西。放眼未来 10 年、20 年、30 年，这是一个我非常兴奋的大想法。

Well, what's really fascinating about specs and about augmented reality is that you can imagine if you and I were going to play a board game together. Today, that board game is made somewhere in the world, packaged up, put on a ship, and sent all the way here to the UK. It's unboxed, unwrapped, and then placed on our table when we play. What's so powerful about specs is that we can use light to create that exact same physical experience. So you and I can see the same board game and move the pieces around, and have that experience of play together with something that historically would be a physical object but today is represented with light. The spillover impact of that as it becomes more and more popular is a really big deal. It improves accessibility — no longer do you have to get the thing on a ship all the way across the world. It improves the environmental impact because all these things that were physical are now shared as things made of light rather than physical objects. And I think for a lot of businesses, it improves the economics because you can scale your idea at a lower cost. So if you imagine the world that way, we can give more people more things at a lower cost with less environmental impact. Over the next 10, 20, 30 years, that's a big idea that I'm really excited about.

这是个了不起的想法。那么你对 Snap 的未来有什么期望？

That's a big idea. So what are your hopes for the future of Snap?

天哪，我有很多很多期望。

Oh my gosh, I have so many.

说来听听。

Give it to me.

我认为最核心的一点是，我们要让计算更有人性。20 或 30 年后，我们会回顾今天人们弓着身子面对的各种尺寸的屏幕，然后说：‘那太疯狂了——我们过去居然那样生活、那样工作、那样交流。’幸好我们改变了电脑的工作方式，让它更好地融入我们作为人的生活。我觉得过去 40 年的计算史就是这样的：人类不得不打乱自己的生活，才能获得计算的好处。而在当下，我们应该问的是：如何改变计算，让它更好地适应人类，以及我们数千年来自然生活、工作和一起玩乐的方式。

I think the headline would be that we make computing more human. 20 or 30 years from now, we'll look back on all these different size screens that people are hunched over today and say, 'That is crazy — that we used to live like that, work like that, communicate like that.' And thank goodness we changed the way computers work to better fit into our lives as humans. I think that's the story of the last 40 years of computing: humans have had to turn their lives upside down to get the benefits of computing. Instead, in this moment, we should be asking how do we change computing to better fit humans and the way we've naturally lived, worked, and played together for thousands of years.

你认为什么造就了一位成功的创始人和企业家？

What do you think makes a successful founder and entrepreneur?

不放弃。

Not giving up.

是啊，就是这一点，对吧？

Yeah, that's it, isn't it?

就是这样。

It's that.

我希望它比这更容易。

I wish it were easier than that.

唉，天啊。我一直在说，尤其是在英国，有一种说法是：要过上充实的人生，你必须成为一名企业家，你必须成为一名创始人；如果你不是，你就不算真正活着。我会说，才不是呢。要成为企业家和创始人，你得是个彻头彻尾的疯子。这是最难的事情，有时几乎不可能。而那种韧性——继续前行，每天醒来然后坚持下去——那才是成功的关键。在非常艰难的日子里，当我向朋友或其他企业家请教时，答案无一例外都是：你只能埋头苦干，想办法解决。所以我才说，我希望它容易一点，希望能有秘诀。但这似乎就是所有创始人的共同点。

Oh, man. And I say this all the time — especially in the UK, there's this narrative that to live a fulfilled life you have to be an entrepreneur, you have to be a founder, and if you're not, then you're not living. I'm like, hell no. You have to be a complete psychopath to be an entrepreneur and founder. It's the hardest thing, virtually impossible at times. And that resilience — to keep going, to wake up every single day and keep going — that's what the success is. On some really tough days, when I've asked friends for advice or other entrepreneurs, the answer invariably is, you just got to knuckle down and figure it out. That's why I say I wish it were easier, I wish there was a silver bullet. But that seems to be the common denominator across founders.

你有没有到过想要放弃的时刻？

Did you ever get to a point where you thought you were going to give up?

确实有过非常艰难的日子，但我认为放弃从未被真正认真考虑过，因为我太热爱我所做的事了。正是这份热爱，让我克服了所有的疲惫、沮丧，以及糟糕日子里的一切。

There have been really hard days, but I don't think that's ever seriously been on the table because I love what I do so much. It's the love of what I do that overcomes all of that exhaustion and frustration and whatever it is on a bad day.

Evan，听着，非常感谢你，伙计。

Evan, listen, a big thank you, man.

是我的荣幸。

Pleasure.

能和你共度时光、与你交谈、深入了解你的想法，是一种莫大的荣幸，尤其是你所打造的事业，以及你对它的热忱。我喜欢的是，当你见到这样大企业的创始人时，他们仍然保有像你这样的激情和兴奋感。

To get time with you and to chat with you and to get into your mind is a huge privilege, especially what you've built and being so passionate about it. And what I love is when you meet entrepreneurs or founders of such big businesses but still have the passion and excitement that you have.

这太棒了，我真的很喜欢。

That's insane. I love that.

比如人们问起我的糖果生意时，我的眼睛会发光。就像在谈论我的第二个孩子。‘天哪，我太爱它了。’你也是这样的。

Like when people ask me about my sweets business, my eyes light up. It's like talking about my second baby. 'Oh my god, I love it so much.' And the same with you.

好吧，有人告诉我这次我能拿到一些糖果。

Well, I was told I was going to get some candy out of this.

别担心，伙计。你会拿到很多的。别担心，我给你准备了一大堆。听着，我们想用八个快问快答来结束这次对话。你准备好了吗？

Don't worry, man. You got loads. Don't worry. I got loads for you. Listen, we'd like to end the conversation with eight quickfire questions. You ready for this?

哇。开头和结尾都是快问快答。你懂的。

Wow. Start and end with quickfire. You know how it is.

我还从没见过这样的。

I've never seen any like that.

那开始吧。

Here we go.

有没有哪句话或标语能让你会心一笑或感到振奋？

What's a saying or phrase that makes you smile or cheers you up?

我爱你，爸爸。

Love you, Dad.

别人给过你最好的赞美是什么？

Best compliment anyone's ever given you?

我认为最好的赞美往往来自我倾听、学习、改变，并努力快速做到这些的能力。我的妻子经常在我可以改进的方面提出反馈，当她注意到我在那方面的努力和改变时，那通常就是一句令我非常受用的赞美。

I think the best compliments have just been around my ability to listen, learn, and change, and try to do that really quickly. My wife often has feedback in areas where I can improve, and when she notices my effort in that regard and change, that's usually a well-received compliment.

明智的反馈是最好的。

Wise feedback is the best.

我经常收到这样的反馈。

I get it a lot.

你自己身上最让你害怕的是什么？

What scares you most about yourself?

我觉得自己非常没有耐心。我特别在意时间，也就是尘世的时间。有时这会妨碍我真正活在当下，甚至妨碍我花时间去做那些可能不太方便却非常重要的事。我正在努力改掉这种不耐烦，确保自己充分活在当下、活在我的生活里，不要因为总想着赶到下一件事，而让一切都匆匆流逝。

I think I'm extremely impatient. I'm really conscious of time, like earthly time. And sometimes that gets in the way of really being in the moment, or even really giving time to something that's inconvenient but incredibly important. I'm really trying to work on that impatience, to make sure I'm living fully in the moment and in my life, and I don't let it all just fly by because I'm trying to get to the next thing.

你最后一次哭是什么时候？

When was the last time you cried?

天哪，这个周末我看了电影《我发誓》，我哭得稀里哗啦，简直难以置信。太不真实了，太鼓舞人心了。

Oh my god, this weekend I watched the movie 'I Swear' and I was bawling like it was unbelievable. It was unreal. So inspiring.

那感觉多好啊？我被这部电影震撼到了。我们不常看电影，而我整场都在流泪。

How good is that? I was blown away by this film. We don't watch movies that often, and I was just in tears the whole time.

哥们，我经常说起这件事。它——

Dude, I talk about this a lot. It's—

我不——在这个节目上，这太不可思议了。

I don't—on this show, it's unbelievable.

不，我向上帝发誓。

No, I swear to God.

这对我来说就像是改变人生的体验。

This was like a life-changing experience for me.

哥们，这太疯狂了。我曾经主持过 BAFTA 电影红毯，和 Robert 聊过，就是演那部电影的人，当时他还默默无闻。我刚才还跟他聊过。

Dude, it's insane. I hosted the BAFTA film red carpet and I spoke to Robert, who was the guy who played it, and he was unknown. I just spoke to this guy.

我之前对他一无所知，然后他突然拿了英国电影学院奖。我看了之后就想，‘你简直是最伟大的演员。’而约翰·大卫的故事简直难以置信。

I didn't really know anything about him, and then suddenly he wins the BAFTA. I watched it, and I was like, 'You're like the greatest actor.' And the story of John David is unbelievable.

难以置信。

Unbelievable.

你一定要再看一部电影，叫《Nowhere Special》。

You have to watch another movie called *Nowhere Special*.

好的。

Okay.

《Nowhere Special》由詹姆斯·诺顿主演。讲的是一个窗户清洁工要照顾一个男孩的故事。

*Nowhere Special* stars James Norton. It's about a window cleaner who has to look after a boy.

天哪，这部片子好得难以置信。

Man, it is unbelievably special.

《Nowhere Special》不太为人所知。有一点点像……真的难以置信。去看吧。

Nowhere Special is unknown. It's a little bit like... it's unbelievable. Watch that.

有什么事是你放不下的？

What's something you can't let go of?

呃，我放不下……大概就是我的手机吧。我也不知道。是的。

Uh, I cannot let go of—it's like my phone. I don't know. Yeah.

电脑。

Computers.

对，就是这样。电脑。

Yeah, there you go. Computers.

就这样。你的罪恶快感是什么？

That's it. What's your guilty pleasure?

呃，大概是偶尔和朋友们一起打《使命召唤》。这就是我的罪恶快感。而且也不适合小孩子看。

Uh, probably every now and then playing *Call of Duty* with my friends. That is my guilty pleasure. And not appropriate for young kids to watch either.

那我可要奉陪一下。我会把你狙到怀疑人生。

I'd take you up on that. I would snipe the crap out of you.

这倒可能是真的，可能是真的。

That's probably true. That's probably true.

什么会让你反感？

What turns you off?

让我反感的是别人打断别人说话。这让我抓狂。是的，真的很让我恼火。我也不知道，我就想说，让人把话说完好吗？

What turns me off is when people are talking over other people. It drives me crazy. Yeah. It just really grates on me. I don't know. I'm like, just let them finish, you know?

回答得好。我觉得我自己有时候也会这样。

It's a great answer. I think I do that sometimes.

天哪，我知道。我也一样会激动。但做了这么多年播客，我学到了一点，其实沉默是金。

Oh my gosh. I know. I get excited in the same way. But I've learned from this, having done a podcast so long, that actually silence is golden.

你好像钻进我团队的脑子里了。是啊，你还有什么别的建议吗？

It's like you got into my team's mind. Yeah. Do you have any other feedback?

有。

Yeah.

那什么会让你兴奋？

Well, what turns you on?

呃，我觉得是那些非常开放、坦率的人，他们不害怕谈论自己热爱的事情并分享出来——你知道吗，我真的很受启发。我喜欢那样。

Uh, I think people who are really open, who wear their heart on their sleeve, who aren't afraid to talk about what they love and share that—you know, I get really inspired by that. I love that.

最后一个，有点俗气的问题。你最喜欢自己哪一点？

And last one, the cheesy one. What do you like most about yourself?

哇。呃，我喜欢——我真的努力把我们团队和社区放在首位，在人的层面上。呃，你知道，有时候这很简单，比如你会特意——比如你听说有人失去了亲人，或者出了车祸——我一定会拿起电话打给他们：‘你还好吗？家人怎么样？有没有什么我们能帮忙的？’对我来说，这显然是真正关系的基础，但我觉得这对我来说真的非常重要。或者写东西——你知道，我会写感谢卡，就是感谢团队成员做的一些事。这很棒，就像是‘嘿，谢啦，兄弟。’一张感谢卡。这是我父母教给我的最宝贵的东西。

Oh boy. Um, I like—I really make an effort to prioritize our team and our community on a—on a human level. Uh, and you know, sometimes that's as basic as going out of your way to—you know, you hear somebody's had a loss or got into a car accident—like making sure I pick up the phone, call them, 'How are you doing? How's your family? Is there anything we can do to help?' And that, I think, like that, to me, well, obviously the foundation of real relationships, but I think it's just something that's really important to me. Or writing—you know, I write thank-you notes, you know, just for stuff our team members have done. That's awesome. Just like, 'Hey, thanks, man.' A thank-you note. It's the greatest thing my parents taught me.

确实如此。写感谢卡。我得到过一份工作，就是因为我写了感谢卡，感谢他们邀请我，然后他们就把主持工作给了我。

It honestly is. Write a thank-you note. I got a job once because I wrote them a thank-you note for having me on, and then they gave me the hosting job.

太棒了。

That's awesome.

那是以前的事了。是啊。感谢卡可是能……

Back in the day. Yeah. Thank-you notes go...

哦，我记得小时候——生日或者圣诞节之后，我就会说‘妈，今天是圣诞节’，然后就会有一叠感谢卡。她会在圣诞节送我——送我一叠感谢卡。我就说‘妈，好吧。’我有第一个女朋友时，我的感谢卡比我先到她家。我以为它会晚点到，但奇怪的是，那封感谢卡来得非常及时。我喜欢这一点——我到的同时感谢卡也到了。我当时就想，‘好吧……’

Oh, I remember as a kid—after my birthday or after Christmas, it's like, 'Mom, it's Christmas day,' and it's like here's the stack. She would gift me—gift me for Christmas—thank-you notes. I'm like, 'Mom, okay.' I was my first ever girlfriend. My thank-you note arrived at the house before I arrived. I thought it was going to arrive afterwards, but weirdly, that's very timely. I like that—as I arrived, so did the thank-you note. And I was like, 'All right...'

但我也喜欢你那时候真的坚信一切会很顺利。我是说……

But I also like that you had real conviction it was going to go super well. I mean this...

是啊，我很喜欢那个周末。

Yeah, I loved the weekend.

我喜欢我们一起度过的那个时刻。

I loved the moment we had this.

然后他们就说：‘不好意思，你是个骗子。’

So they're like, 'Sorry, you're a liar.'

埃文，谢谢你，兄弟。我很感激你。你真的太棒了。非常感谢你的陪伴。你是最棒的。非常感谢。

Evan, thank you, man. I appreciate you. You're incredible. Thank you so much for being great company. You're the best. Thank you so much.

非常感谢。

Thank you so much.