Snapchat 创始人 Evan Spiegel 谈 TikTok、可穿戴设备与被抄袭

Evan Spiegel，欢迎来到节目。非常感谢。真是洛杉矶的多事之秋啊。你们还好吗？

Evan Spiegel, welcome to the show. Thank you so much. What a time to be in Los Angeles, wow. A time, man. How are you guys doing?

起起伏伏吧。你知道，就像有人问你，如果你的房子烧了你会怎么办？从来没人问过，或者从着火房子里你会拿什么？然后你可以重建一切，你会怎么重建？所以很奇怪，你从没想过这是真的会发生的事。所以这是一件奇怪的事。在某些方面这感觉很熟悉，对吧？就像这是我们的工作室，这是火灾前我们会做的事，所以这是个不错的消遣。是的，但现在感觉有点像，我一直对 Samir 说，度假不是合适的词，但感觉像是在旅行，感觉很临时。是的，但事实并非如此。显然我们来自同一个家乡，所以那个地方已经不存在了，这很难接受。我还没有接受。

It's been up and down. You know, it's a prompt that you're given like, what would you do if your house burns down? Never given that, or like what would you grab from your burning house? And you could rebuild it all, how would you rebuild? So it's bizarre to like, you never think that's a real thing that's gonna happen. So it's a bizarre thing to happen. In some ways this feels familiar, right? Like this is our studio, this is a before-fire type of thing that we would do, so it's a nice distraction. Yeah, but it does feel a bit right now like, I keep saying to Samir, vacation's not the right word, but it feels like we're on a trip, feels temporary. Yeah, but it's not. And obviously we're from the same hometown, so like that place just doesn't exist anymore, which is a tough thing to wrap your head around. I still have not.

是的，是的。这需要一段时间，需要很长的时间。嗯，显然我们很感激你今天早上能来聊天。我们体验了 Spectacles 的演示，那是一个你投入了很多时间的产品。我在想，我们在 2016 年拿到 Spectacles 是多么有趣。Snapchat 在 2011 年推出，很快就进入了可穿戴设备领域。我想问你的是，我读了你的故事，我其实不知道你在 Snapchat 之前还推出过一个网站，叫 FutureFresh.com。你从中学到的教训是你妈妈注册了，但没人用。之后你说你想建造人们真正会用的东西。你得到了什么信号，或者你已经得到什么信号，表明可穿戴设备是人们想用的方向？

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's gonna take a while, it's gonna take a really long time. Well, obviously we're thankful for you coming in and chatting this morning. We got a demo of Spectacles, and that's a product that you've actually spent a lot of time on. I was thinking about how interesting it is that we got our hands on Spectacles in 2016. Snapchat launched in 2011, it's pretty quick to go into wearables. And what I wanted to ask you was, I was reading into your story and I actually didn't know that you had launched a site prior to Snapchat, which was FutureFresh.com. And the lesson you said from that was that your mom signed up for it but no one else used it. And after that you said you want to build stuff that people will actually use. What signals did you get or have you gotten that wearables is a direction that people want to use?

当然。嗯，我们第一次涉足 Spectacles 实际上是为了把摄像头从人们口袋里拿出来。所以你想，Snapchat 总是打开摄像头，这实际上是一个邀请，让你在任何地方、任何时刻创造和表达自己。但是把手机从口袋里拿出来拍照或录像与朋友分享有很多摩擦。所以最初的目标就是把摄像头从人们口袋里拿出来，放在更方便拍快照的地方。我们发现这并没有比手机好 10 倍，对吧？它对那些攀岩的人，或者骑摩托艇想拍摄免手持的第一人称视频的人非常有用，但这不是一个很大的市场。但我们确实发现有一个巨大的机会，让计算机真正让你扎根于现实世界。我认为人们感到非常沮丧，因为手机妨碍了他们的日常生活。他们感到非常沮丧，因为屏幕通常把他们从朋友身边带走。我认为最终的解决方案不是不使用技术，我们必须改变技术的工作方式，让它让人们扎根于现实世界，更容易与朋友分享。早期的 Spectacles 让我们看到了这一点。所以我们开始朝那个方向迈出步伐，增加两个摄像头用于 3D，增加显示屏，现在推出操作系统来帮助人们为眼镜构建应用。

Definitely. Well, our first sort of foray with Spectacles was really about getting the camera out of people's pockets. So if you think about it, Snapchat's always opened into the camera and it's really been this invitation to create and just express yourself wherever you are in the moment. But there's a lot of friction in terms of pulling your phone out of your pocket and snapping a photo or video to share with friends. So the original goal was just to get the camera out of folks' pockets and somewhere more convenient for making snaps. What we found was that that wasn't 10 times better than the phone, right? It was really useful for people who were rock climbing maybe, or on a jet ski who wanted to capture hands-free point-of-view video, but that's not a very large market. But what we did find was there was a huge opportunity to make computer something that actually keeps you grounded in the real world. I think people feel really frustrated that the phone gets in the way of their day-to-day lives. They feel really frustrated that screens in general take them away from their friends. And I think ultimately the solution is not to not use technology, we have to change the way technology works so that it keeps folks grounded in the real world, is more easily shared with friends. And the early generation of Spectacles gave us a little glimpse at that. So we just started taking steps in that direction, adding two cameras for 3D, adding a display, and now launching the operating system to help people build for glasses.

当我回想起 Spectacles 和 2016 年时，我觉得那看起来或感觉上太早了。无论好坏，当我想到 Snapchat 时，我会想到竞争和人们抄袭 Snapchat。你如何内化那种被抄袭的感觉和情绪，尤其是当 Spectacles 在 2016 年推出可穿戴设备感觉太早，然后显然 Stories 和之后的一切？你如何保持动力和精力？因为我要说，作为一个创作者，当有人抄袭我们的东西时，我会不那么喜欢它，不那么喜欢我正在做的事情。是的，我想作为科技创始人，没有人比你经历得更多。

When I even think back to Spectacles and it being 2016, I think about how early that seems or feels. And for better or worse, when I think about Snapchat, I think about competition and people copying Snapchat. How do you sort of internalize that feeling and emotion of being copied, especially when it's like Spectacles of 2016 that feels early to be launching wearables, and then obviously Stories and everything that's come after it? How do you stay motivated and energized? Because I will say as a creator, when someone copies our stuff, it makes me like it less, makes me like what I'm doing less. Yeah, and I imagine there's like no one who's been through it more as a tech founder than you.

是的，我有几种想法。从根本上说，作为一个设计师，影响世界不仅仅通过我们的产品，这其实很令人兴奋，对吧？我认为这是一个非常酷的引领机会。我们热爱创新，热爱创造新事物。所以在很多方面，我们的发明不仅惠及 Snapchat 上超过 8.5 亿人，还惠及全球数十亿在各种不同产品中使用我们发明的人，这很酷。但作为上市公司 CEO，这可能会很烦人。所以我认为我们的团队最终是由创造事物驱动的，所以当东西被抄袭时，这并不会削弱这一点。如果有的话，我认为我们的团队会为有机会引领技术走向、世界走向而感到兴奋。但很早我们就意识到，我们必须开始研究更复杂、更难复制的东西。对吧，Stories 很容易复制。

Yeah, I have several minds of it. I think fundamentally as a designer, it's actually quite exciting to influence the world beyond just our products, right? And I think that's a really cool opportunity to lead. And we love innovating, we love making new things. And so in many ways, it's cool that our inventions don't just benefit the 850 plus million people on Snapchat, but billions of people around the world who use our inventions in all sorts of different products. But as the public company CEO, it can be annoying. So I think our team ultimately is motivated by creating things, and so when things are copied, it doesn't take away from that. If anything, I think our teams get excited about the opportunity to lead where technology is going, where the world is going. But pretty early on, we learned that we had to start working on things that were a lot more complicated and hard to copy. Right, Stories are very easy to copy.

那是我们应用里的一个功能，当然我们有专利什么的，但软件专利很难执行。所以我认为我们发现的是，如果我们不迅速将创新应用到更难复制的东西上，比如眼镜，但更重要的是平台，对吧？当我们看到人们制作的所有镜头——你知道，我们的增强现实平台上有数百万个镜头——那很难复制。你无法轻易将数十万创作者和数百万个镜头迁移到一个新平台。所以随着时间推移，我们在投资时一直思考如何投资于难以复制的领域，这样当我们创新时，主要受益的是我们的业务和社区，即使竞争对手模仿我们。

That's a feature in our app, and of course we have the patents or whatever, but it's very difficult to enforce software patents. So I think what we found was if we didn't move very quickly to applying our innovation to things that are much harder to copy, things like glasses, but more importantly platforms, right? So when we look at all the lenses people have made — you know, millions of lenses for our augmented reality platform — it's very hard to copy that. You can't move hundreds of thousands of creators and millions of lenses to a new platform very easily. And so as we've invested over time, we've thought about how do we invest in areas that are hard to copy, so that when we're innovating, we're primarily benefiting our business and our community, even if our competitors follow what we're doing.

但当时 Stories 功能上线 Instagram 时，你有没有生气？比如内部有没有“啊，这有点糟”的感觉？

But were you like angry when Stories hit Instagram? Like was there an internal like "ah, this sucks" a little bit?

从某种意义上说，这和他们以前的做法不同，因为他们以前总是试图抄袭，然后加入自己的东西，最终都会失败。对吧？比如他们做了 Poke 来抄袭 Snapchat，但那完全是个灾难，最终反而提升了 Snapchat 的知名度，吸引了更多人使用 Snapchat。我觉得 Kevin Systrom 非常聪明：他直接站出来说，“我们要原样复制。我们不会试图加入自己的东西，也不会试图做得不同或更好。我们就直接照搬，因为我们觉得它真的很棒。”我认为那是一个非常聪明的做法，也非常适合 Instagram，它是以创作者为中心的，对吧？Snapchat 一直专注于朋友和家人，但以那种方式把 Stories 这个媒介带给创作者，我认为非常聪明，而这是我们之前投入不够的，因为我们专注于帮助人们与朋友和家人分享。

In a way, it was different than what they had done before, because before they had always tried to copy it but then make it their own, and ultimately it would fail. Right? So like they made Poke to copy Snapchat, but it was like a total disaster and ultimately raised the profile of Snapchat and drove more people to Snapchat. I think Kevin Systrom was very smart: he just came out and said, "We're going to copy it exactly. We're not going to try to make it our own or make it different or better. We're just going to literally carbon copy it because we think it's really great." And I think that was a very smart approach, and it was a very good fit for Instagram, which was creator-focused, right? Snapchat's always been about friends and family, but to bring the Stories medium to creators in that way, I think was very smart and something we hadn't invested as much in because we were focused on helping people share with their friends and family.

这真的很有意思，因为我们当时在讨论移动视频——Snapchat 上线和 Stories 推出时，我们正在 YouTube 上创作，但把视频上传到手机完全不是一个无缝的过程。现在听起来很奇怪，当时那居然是个问题，但确实不顺畅。Stories 是第一个让人觉得“哦，这很顺畅”的产品。比如我直接对着手机录，就是一个故事——我一天的开头、中间和结尾。我们当时看的人像 Jerome Jarre，你肯定记得他，还有 Casey Neistat，我记得 DJ Khaled 在摩托艇上迷路时说的“关键是在黑暗中不要开摩托艇”，所有人都在看和关注。这算是移动优先的竖屏视频的首次登场吗？

It's really interesting because we were talking about mobile video — like we were creating on YouTube at the time when Snapchat launched and when Stories came out, but uploading video to mobile was not a seamless process at all. It seems foreign now that that was a problem back then, but it wasn't frictionless. Stories was the first product that was like, "Oh, this is pretty frictionless. Like I can just record into my phone and it's a story — like a beginning, middle, and end of my day." We were watching people like Jerome Jarre, obviously you remember him, but like Casey Neistat, I remember DJ Khaled when he was lost on a jet ski — "the key is not to drive your jet ski in the dark" — and everyone watching and following. And it was kind of the first entrance into mobile-first vertical video. Is that fair to say?

我确实认为视频是 Stories 成功的一个重要组成部分。但我觉得，就像你说的，时间顺序也非常重要。因为我们当时看大家分享的方式，一切都是倒序的——这很奇怪。你进入信息流，如果有人发了三张生日派对照片，你会先看到结尾，然后是中间，再是开头。我认为这是一种非常奇怪的体验内容的方式。所以我认为时间顺序非常重要。我认为每天重新开始也很重要，这与所有被归档的公开点赞和评论形成了鲜明对比。最终，我觉得很多人看着自己的社交主页会说，“哇，那是我五年前的样子。我现在不会那样展示自己了。”人们几乎对过去发布的公开历史内容产生了一种疏离感。所以我认为每天重新开始的自由也是人们非常看重的。

I do think video was a big component of Stories' success for sure. But I think, to your point, the chronological order was also really important. Because when we looked at the way that everyone was sharing at the time, everything was in reverse chronological order — it was very bizarre. So you'd go into your feed and if someone posted three photos from a birthday party, you would see the end, then the middle, and the beginning. It was just a very odd way, I think, to experience content. So I think the chronological order was really important. I think having it start fresh every day was really important, and it was really in contrast to all the cataloged public likes and comments that ultimately, I think a lot of people look at their social profile and they're like, "Wow, that was me five years ago. That's not how I would represent myself today." And there was almost like a dissociation with all the public historical content people had posted. So I think that freedom of starting fresh every day was something people really valued as well.

你当时有没有意识到——就像你提到的，Snap 是非常朋友对朋友的，对吧？那是一种非常私密的体验。你当时有没有意识到这种媒介会为变现和广告打开大门，让独立个人成为媒体平台？你有没有感觉到这就是未来的方向？

Did you have any sense at the time — like you mentioned Snap was very friends-to-friends, right? It was a very intimate experience. Did you have any sense at the time that this type of medium would open up the doors for monetization and advertising, where independent people could become media platforms? Like did you have a sense that that's where this was going?

我们当时认为，如果 Stories 成功了，会对我们的业务非常有帮助。消息很难变现。我们现在通过增值功能如 Snapchat Plus 来变现，它已经增长到超过 1400 万订阅用户。所以那部分在增长。但我觉得我们只是看到了广告的成功，当然还有创作者驱动的增长。所以我认为我们知道它会为广告开辟新途径，但肯定没有达到后来的程度。而且在头六个月，根本没人用——我是说完全没人用——这有点让人紧张，因为我们的董事会说，“你们做了 Stories 这个东西，你们说它会火……”当时董事会大概只有四个人，但他们说，“我们以为这会火，结果呢？”它花了一些时间才真正起飞，人们才学会如何使用它。

We thought that if Stories worked, it would be really helpful for our business. It's hard to monetize messaging. We do that now with added-value features like Snapchat Plus, which has now grown to more than 14 million subscribers. So that's grown. But I think we've just seen the success of advertising and, of course, creator-driven growth. So I think we knew that it would open up new avenues for advertising, but certainly not the extent to which it would. And in the first six months, nobody used it — I mean at all — which was a little nerve-wracking because our board was like, "You guys made the Stories thing, you said it was going to be..." and our board at the time I think was like four people total, but they're like, "You know, we thought this was going to be a thing, and what happened?" And it took some time for it to really take off and for people to learn how to use it.

你提到 Snapchat 打开就是相机，据我所知，你对此非常坚持。但我的假设是，如果你想建立真正的创作文化，你会打开信息流——对吧？——直接消费，向人们展示他们可以参与什么。你能谈谈这种动态吗？一方面想成为私密的体验，让人们与朋友和家人联系，另一方面又想成为人们可以创作和变现的平台？你如何处理这种摩擦，以及是否打开相机这类决策？

You mentioned that Snapchat opens to the camera, and from what I understand, that's something you feel pretty strongly about. But my assumption would be that if you wanted to build a real culture of creation, you would open to the feed — right? — of immediate consumption, to show people what they could be a part of. Can you talk about that dynamic of wanting to be an intimate experience and a place where people can connect with friends and family, but also wanting to be a platform where people can be creators and monetize? How do you deal with that friction and those types of decisions of whether to open to the camera or not?

是的，我觉得这是个很好的观点。当我们谈论那种创造力时，我们真正说的是让尽可能多的人感到自在地表达自己。我们通过多种方式做到了这一点，无论是 ephemerality（短暂性）——对，它降低了创造力的门槛，因为它更像说话而不是保存瞬间——还是镜头，它给了人们创作照片、视频或 Stories 的借口，就像我们刚才讨论的。我们真的试图拓宽创造力的基础。最终，对我们来说，我们觉得当你打开信息流或先体验别人的内容时，你会不断地将自己与其他内容进行比较。而当信息流按热度排序时，比如，这实际上会扼杀创造力，而不是激发更广泛人群的创造力。我认为对于创作者或那些试图通过制作最受欢迎内容谋生的人来说，打开信息流很有意义。但对于普通个人来说，你知道，我不知道，他们刚刚做了……

Yeah, I think that's a really great point. So when we look at that sort of creativity, what we're really talking about is empowering the largest number of people possible to feel comfortable expressing themselves. We've done that a bunch of different ways, whether it's ephemerality — right, that lowers the barrier to that creativity because it's more like talking than saving a moment — or lenses, right, which give people an excuse to create a photo or video or Stories, like we just discussed. We really try to broaden that base of creativity. And ultimately, for us, what we felt was when you open to a feed or you're experiencing other people's content first, you're constantly thinking of yourself in comparison to other content. And when that feed is then ranked in terms of popularity, for example, that can actually stifle creativity rather than inspiring it for a really broad base of people. I think for creators or folks who are trying to maybe make a living by making the most popular content, opening to a feed makes a lot of sense. But for your average individual who, you know, I don't know, has just made...

就像把微波炉加热的芝士通心粉跟马里布 Nobu 餐厅的晚餐放在一起比较——那种对比，我觉得实际上会扼杀创造力。所以对我们来说，回归自己的体验，最终是让尽可能多的人能够说出自己当下正在经历或感受的东西，你可以分享那个瞬间，与朋友和家人建立联系，这与那种信息流驱动的消费不同。而且它本身就，因为其他应用的比较性质会催生更多创作者，就像科林说的，它创造了一种竞争性和紧迫感，促使人们去创造和建立事业。所以反过来就是暗示……我真的很喜欢这种观点，因为对我来说，作为一个有创造力的人，我几乎在相对真空的状态下不再了解自己的创造力了。你明白我的意思吗？就像我不再知道自己对自己的创造力有什么想法，而没有立刻想到‘但那样行得通吗？’对吧？我们几乎不可能——一旦你打开一个应用，它立刻向你展示成功是什么样子，至少在那个应用眼中，你很难假装没看到。是的，对吧。然后遵循那个提示：‘我可以做出类似的东西，出现在同一个地方。’你会怎么说？现在 Snap 上模范创作者是什么样的？因为我觉得当我今天打开 Snap，甚至当我和家人聊 Snap 时，它是我几乎所有表亲的首选消息应用，任何二十多岁的人，甚至三十出头的人——都是首选消息应用。对吧？而且我想起 Snap 上创作者的时代，我记得 Discover 主要是媒体出版商的时期。现在你去 Discover，去看内容，很多都是创作者了。我想到了 David Dobrik，你一天可以看几百个故事片段。但现在 Snap 上模范创作者是什么样的？除了 Dobrik，你还知道其他案例吗？

Some macaroni and cheese in the microwave, you know, and comparing it to a dinner at Nobu Malibu that's at the top of the feed — that sort of comparison, I think, can actually stifle creativity. So for us, opening into your own experience, I think ultimately is a way to get as many people as possible to say whatever you're experiencing or feeling in the moment, like you can share that moment and connect with your friends and family, which is different from the sort of feed-driven consumption. And it inherently, you know, because the comparative nature of the other apps creates more creators, like Colin said, and it creates a competitive nature and an urgency to create and to build businesses. So the inverse is like suggestive of... I really like that sentiment because I think for me as a creative person, I almost don't know my own creativity anymore in a relative vacuum. Do you know what I mean? Like I don't know what I think anymore about my own creativity without the immediate thought of, 'But would that work?' Right? Like we've lived almost impossible not to — once you open up an app and it does show you what success looks like immediately, at least in the eyes of that app, it's hard to act like you haven't seen it. Yeah, right. And to follow that cue of 'I can make something like that and show up in the same place.' What would you say? What does the model citizen creator look like on Snap right now? Because I think when I open Snap today, and even when I talk to my family about Snap, it is the preferred messaging app for almost all of my cousins, anyone who's like in their 20s, even people up to like their early 30s — it's the preferred messaging app. Right? And I think when I think about creators on Snap, I remember the era where Discover was primarily media publishers. And now when you go to Discover, go to watch content, a lot of it is creators now. I think about like David Dobrik, who you can watch hundreds of story slides in a day. But what does the model citizen creator look like on Snap right now? And are there any other case studies outside of Dobrik that you know of?

是的，我觉得 Dobrik 是一个很好的例子，还有其他很大的创作者，比如 Charlie D'Amelio 或 Snoop Dogg，等等。但我认为，如果你看我们过去一两年的重点，其实是在原生创作者和那些从小用 Snapchat 和朋友聊天、后来决定创建公开资料、并因此积累粉丝或建立事业的人。Brook Monk 可能是一个很好的例子——16 岁开始用 Snapchat，现在有 350 万粉丝。所以对我们来说，我们现在发现有很多不同的声音，这些人可能本来只是用这个应用和朋友家人聊天，但他们把那种真实感带到了更广泛的受众面前。我觉得这真的很酷。

Yeah, I think Dobrik is a great example, and there are other really large creators too, like Charlie D'Amelio or Snoop Dogg or you name it. But I think if you look at where our focus has been over the last year or two, it's really been on homegrown creators and folks who just grew up using Snapchat talking with their friends, decided to make a public profile, and have since grown their followings or built a business. I think Brook Monk might be a great example — started using Snapchat at 16, now has three and a half million followers. So I think for us, what we're finding now is there are so many different voices of folks who might have normally just used the app to chat with their friends and family, but are bringing that authenticity to connect with a wider audience. And I think that's been really cool to see.

你能分解一下现在 Snap 上视频的分发方式吗？因为有几个不同的地方——Stories 显然是其中之一，但还有 Spotlight，还有……嗯，我想你可能比我解释得更好。

Can you break down the kind of where videos are distributed on Snap right now? Because there are a couple of different places — Stories is obviously one of them, but there's also Spotlight and there's also... well, I guess you could probably break it down better than I could.

当然可以。Stories，我想现在大家都比较了解了，但肯定是很多创作者关注的地方，我认为他们能够真正加深与观众的关系。我觉得这是我们经常从在 Snapchat 上分享的创作者那里听到的——他们感受到的那种真实连接，以及这如何转化为商业成果。所以最近甚至有一项 eMarketer 的研究显示，社交购物者在 Snapchat 上购物的可能性远高于 TikTok 或 Instagram。我认为这是因为连接更真实，也许也因为我们收入分成计划。所以创作者不是试图在他们的故事里不断推销东西，而是分享他们真实的日常生活。但随后当他们去建立个人品牌时，Alyssa McKay 可能是一个很好的例子——利用她的故事，她获得了大量的免费分发，并将她的服装品牌做到了超过 100 万美元的收入。我认为那种真实连接真的非常重要。所以 Stories 仍然是一个重点领域。然后我们一直在很好地发展 Spotlight。Spotlight 是我们的短视频平台，更侧重于发现。所以我认为在 Stories 上，人们通常与他们已经认识的创作者互动，并希望更深入地联系。而在 Spotlight 上，人们真的试图获得更多发现。所以你可以发布一个 Spotlight，然后通过 Spotlight 帖子将人们引导到你的故事。我认为现在有大约 5 亿人使用 Spotlight，而且使用时长增长也非常不错。

Yeah, definitely. So Stories, I think pretty well understood at this point, but certainly a place that a lot of creators focus on and are able to, I think, really deepen their relationship with their audience. I think that's something that we always hear back from creators who are sharing on Snapchat — that authentic connection they feel, and then how that translates into business results. So I think there was even an eMarketer study recently that basically showed that social shoppers are far more likely to purchase on Snapchat when compared to TikTok or Instagram. I think that's because the connection is more authentic, and maybe that's because of our revenue share program as well. So creators, instead of trying to constantly sell you something on their story, are just sharing their authentic day-to-day lives. But then when they go out and build their personal brand, I think Alyssa McKay is probably a good example — using her story, she was able to get a huge amount of free distribution and build her clothing brand to over a million dollars in revenue. And I think that authentic connection is really, really important. So Stories continue to be a place where there's a lot of focus. And then we've been growing Spotlight really nicely. Spotlight is our short video platform, it's more geared towards discovery. So I think with Stories, folks are normally engaging with creators they already know and want to connect more deeply with. With Spotlight, folks are really trying to get more discovery. So you can post a Spotlight and then drive people to your story with a Spotlight post. I think Spotlight is now used by like 500 million people, and the time spent growth there has been really nice too.

所以你们在 Stories 上分享收入？

So you guys share revenue in Stories?

是的。而且现在我们实际上也与 Spotlight 创作者分享收入。我们试图统一我们的收入计划。竖屏视频收入分成一直非常具有挑战性。我认为归因几乎是每家公司都提到的问题——要么他们做了一个基金，比如‘这里有一笔固定金额，我们要想办法怎么分’，但将广告收入归因于竖屏视频信息流中的特定内容并不像 YouTube 的 AdSense 那样容易或简单。那么你是怎么考虑的……这在 Stories 上是怎么运作的？然后在 Spotlight 上又是怎么运作的？为什么你认为它不那么普遍？我知道 YouTube Shorts 现在有一个货币化计划，是收入分成，但它在所有短视频平台中并不普遍。

We do. And now we actually share revenue with Spotlight creators as well. We tried to unify our revenue program. Vertical video revenue share has been very challenging. I think attribution has been something that almost every company has said — either they've done a fund where it's like, 'Here is this finite amount and we're going to figure out how to split this,' but attributing advertising dollars to certain content in vertical video feeds has not been as easy or as simple as YouTube with AdSense. So how have you thought about... how does that even work on Stories? And then how does it work in Spotlight? And why do you think it's not so universal? Like I know YouTube Shorts now has a monetization program which is revenue share, but it's really not universal across all short-form video platforms how revenue is shared.

我认为 YouTube 长视频和 Stories 有一个共同点，就是它们可以在内容中间插入广告。所以我认为这很有帮助，也有助于协调激励机制，对吧？如果你看视频时间更长，创作者制作更有吸引力的内容，人们看更多他们的故事，就会为那个内容支付更多。我们也把这个扩展到了更长的 Spotlight 视频。很多我们的出版商和创作者合作伙伴想要为 Spotlight 制作更长的视频，当然也像你提到的发布很长的故事。所以我认为，在这些故事内部插入广告使得事情容易得多，而其他一些平台主要是在这些视频之间插播广告。我确实理解为什么分配这些收入更难，尤其是如果……

I think YouTube long-form and Stories have something in common, which is that they can insert ads in the middle of the content. And so I think that really helps, and it also helps align incentives, right? If you watch the video longer, creators make more compelling content, people watch more of their stories, will pay out more against that content. And we've extended that to longer-form Spotlight videos as well. A lot of our publisher and creator partners want to make longer-form video for Spotlight, and of course publish quite long stories as you mentioned. And so I think that is sort of the ad insertion inside those stories makes it a lot easier, whereas some other platforms mostly have interstitial advertising in between those videos. And I do understand why it's harder to apportion that revenue, especially if the...

广告插入是动态的。Snap 是否在考虑长内容，考虑到广告归因方面有一些相似之处？显然看到了 YouTube 和电视观看时长的情况，Snap 是否认真考虑过，比如“也许我们会做更长的内容，也许我们会进入电视屏幕，我们会在不同领域扩展”？

Ad insertion is dynamic. Is Snap thinking about long-form content at all, with that understanding that there are some similarities in ad attribution? And obviously seeing what's happened with YouTube and watch time on televisions, is that anything that Snap looks at seriously and thinks, 'Oh, maybe we will go longer, maybe we'll go to TV screens, we'll expand in different areas'?

我们对此有过一些思考。我不一定知道是否要把我们的内容带到电视上，尽管我们可能会尝试一下。但我认为相反的情况正在发生，出版商或创作者意识到，他们可以通过剪辑节目内容，发布成 5 分钟的视频（例如在 Spotlight 上）来吸引更多观众收看他们的电视节目。所以我们确实看到创作者和出版商在拥抱这一点。所以也许移动端的长内容就是 5 分钟左右，这样是合理的。

We have thought a little bit about that. I don't necessarily know about bringing our content to TV, although it's something we might experiment with. But I think definitely the opposite is happening, where publishers or creators are realizing they can drive more tune-in to their television shows by cutting up some of the content of their show and publishing it as a 5-minute video, for example on Spotlight. So we definitely are seeing creators and publishers embrace that. So maybe longer form for mobile is five minutes or something like that makes sense.

你认为，你对当前媒体格局的看法是什么？因为你已经参与其中很长时间了，而且你实际上一直处于前沿，媒体之所以变成今天这个样子，很大程度上可能是因为你设计的产品，意味着现在个人比媒体公司更受信任的信息来源。首先，我想问，你同意这一点吗？其次，你认为未来媒体格局会走向何方？

Where do you think, what's your perspective on the landscape right now of media? Because you've been involved now for a long time, and you've actually been at the forefront and probably a lot of the reason why media looks the way it looks today is largely because of a product you designed, meaning that individuals are more trusted sources of information now than media companies. First, I guess I would ask, do you agree with that? And second, like where do you think we are going as a media landscape in the future?

这是个很好的问题。我认为，甚至在开始思考对传统媒体的信任之前，一个挑战是很多新闻现在都藏在非常昂贵的付费墙后面。所以当你看看年轻人，如果你想访问《纽约时报》、《金融时报》、《华尔街日报》或任何这些有能力真正投资调查性新闻的新闻编辑室，对大多数人来说现在已经无法访问了。我认为这对媒体格局来说确实是一个挑战。当然，其中一些公司会剪辑一些视频并分享，但它们与个人制作的、广泛传播的内容并存。我认为这显然有利有弊。我确实认为人们分享很多以前可能没有分享过的替代观点非常有帮助，但我也认为人脑天生喜欢阴谋论，尤其是当我们试图理解非常复杂的事情时。我们现在生活在一个非常复杂的世界。我们今天解决的几乎所有有趣的问题都必须由拥有广泛且多样化专业知识的团队来解决。所以看看我们今天面临的所有复杂而有趣的挑战，我们总是试图找到简单的解释。不幸的是，在大多数情况下，没有简单的解释。我们今天面临的许多重大挑战都没有简单的解释。所以我认为今天的媒体形式，非常短的内容加上通常是个人的视角而不是广泛的视角，有时只会让理解真正复杂的事情变得更加困难。

It's a great question. I think one of the challenging things, even before we start thinking about trust in traditional media, is that a lot of that news is now behind very expensive paywalls. So as you look at young people, if you want to access the New York Times or the Financial Times or the Wall Street Journal or any of these newsrooms that can afford to really invest in investigative journalism, it's just not accessible to most people at this point. And I think that's really a challenge for the media landscape. Of course, some of those companies are cutting up some of those videos and sharing them, but they're living alongside content made by individuals that is really widely distributed. I think obviously there are pros and cons to that. I do think it's really helpful that people are sharing a lot of alternative perspectives that maybe haven't been shared before, but I also think the human brain is predisposed to enjoy conspiracy theories, especially when we're trying to make sense of things that are very complex. And we now live in a very complex world. Almost all the interesting problems that we're solving today have to be solved by teams of people with vast and varied sets of expertise. So you look at all the complex and interesting challenges we're facing today, and we're always trying to find the simple explanation. Unfortunately, in most cases, there isn't one. There is no simple explanation for a lot of the big challenges that we face today. So I think the media formats today, very short-form content combined with typically an individual perspective rather than a wide set of perspectives, sometimes just makes it harder to make sense of really complex things.

有趣的是，在帕利塞兹大火和洛杉矶火灾期间，我基本上是通过 Snapchat 发现我的房子着火了，因为有几人在发布故事，实时展示情况。所以我一直在看，在 Twitter 和新闻之间切换，试图了解发生了什么，然后我通过 Snap 找到了一个来源，它实时更新信息。所以现在个人的即时性，其他人很难与之竞争，信息的即时性和传播速度。但我确实认为，具体到那次经历，本地新闻提供了一定程度的验证，我觉得非常有帮助。比如我会看 CNN，他们关注更广阔的视角，但对我来说，混合的方式是，是的，让我看看 X，看看 Snapchat，看看有什么新消息，然后用本地新闻来验证。这是一种有趣的动态，我发现本地新闻成了我从未真正想过的依靠。

It's interesting that during the Palisades fire and the fires in LA were going on, I actually found out basically that my house was on fire through Snapchat, because there were a couple people posting stories showing what was going on in real time. So I was watching, I was shifting between Twitter and the news and trying to see what was going on, and then I found a source through Snap which was keeping me updated in real time. So it is the immediacy of an individual right now, it is very hard for anyone else to compete with that, the immediacy of information and how fast information travels now. I do think though, to that experience specifically, there was a level of verification that came through local news that I found to be very helpful. Like I would watch CNN and they're looking at a much broader perspective, but the mix for me was like, yes, let me check X, let me check Snapchat, see what's coming up, and let me verify it with local news. It was this interesting dynamic where I found local news to be this crutch that I never really thought of it as before.

有趣的是，回到我们之前讨论的，用 Snapchat 相机拍摄快照，其中一件非常有趣的事情是，你更有可能信任 Snap 地图上的快照，因为我们实际上验证了它是用我们的相机拍摄的。所以我认为我们也在试图弄清楚如何更好地利用这一点。世界各地的人们都在提交公开快照，记录发生的一切，这些快照带有地理标签，并且是用我们的相机拍摄的，所以我们可以实际验证它是用我们的相机拍摄的真实快照。所以我们正在考虑，对于未来的灾难救援，如果你看看 Watch Duty 正在做的事情，我们如何帮助整合一些这些公开快照数据源，但至少要有那一层理解，即它是在我们的应用中用我们的相机在某个经纬度等位置拍摄的。

And interestingly, connecting back to what we were talking about, making snaps with the Snapchat camera, one of the things that's really interesting is you're more likely to trust a snap on the Snap Map, for example, because we're actually authenticating that it was made with our camera. So I think we're also trying to figure out how we can better use that. People are submitting public snaps all over the world of everything going on that are geotagged and made with our camera, so we can actually verify that it's a real snap made with our camera. So we're trying to think about, for disaster relief in the future, if you look at what Watch Duty is doing, how can we help integrate some of these public snap data sources, but have that layer of at least understanding it was made in our app with our camera at a certain lat/long or whatever.

是的，非常有趣的是，通过这次经历，点对点通信现在似乎仍然如此，个人在事件期间和事件之后组织成点对点通信，这很可能就是未来事情的样子或可能的发展方向，这种点对点通信。我想回到 Snap 上创作者的概念。在 Snap 上能赚多少钱？我知道这是个宽泛的问题，但我记得当基金推出时，有一位名叫 Cam Casey 的创作者在讲述他如何在一天内赚了一百万美元的故事。当然还有各种基金和体验，但我认为当我们作为创作者审视平台格局时，对于正在经营业务的创作者，甚至是那些希望靠创造力谋生的个人创作者来说，Snap 有什么理由值得选择？

Yeah, it's really interesting that through this experience, peer-to-peer communication seems even now to be like individuals are organizing into peer-to-peer communication during the event, after the event, and that's likely how things will continue to look or probably progress in the future, this peer-to-peer communication. I want to come back now to the concept of creators on Snap. How much money can you make on Snap? I know that's a broad question, but I remember when the fund hit and there was a creator named Cam Casey who was telling stories of how he made a million dollars in a day. And of course there have been various funds and experiences, but I think when we as creators are looking at the landscape of platforms, what's the case for Snap for creators who are running a business or even individual creators who are looking to make a career out of their creativity?

当然。所以从数据来看，我们在 2024 年向创作者和出版商支付了超过 5 亿美元。所以这是一笔可观的金额，而且肯定足够了。我们听到很多创作者的故事，说这足以……

Absolutely. So for perspective, we paid out last year in 2024 more than half a billion dollars to creators and publishers. So that's a decent amount of money, and certainly more than enough. We hear a lot of stories from creators that it's enough to take...

把一生奉献给这份热情、成为一名创作者，是有风险的。我们经常谈论这些草根创作者，他们刚开始起步，但哇，现在他们有了几百万粉丝，通过我们的收入分成计划赚钱。他们可以搬到洛杉矶，考虑扩展业务或创立自己的品牌。所以我认为，至少从我听到的创作者故事来看，我们的收入分成计划确实帮助人们迈出了那一步，成为全职创作者，这真的很酷。你能多谈谈发现机制是如何运作的吗？我记得我们和 Spotify 的 Daniel E 聊过，他说 Spotify 实际上更偏向编辑推荐。它是算法和编辑推荐的混合体，比如“这是我们认为适合你的好内容”。Snap 在呈现好内容方面是怎么考虑的呢？

A risk on dedicating their life to pursuing this passion and becoming a creator. Right, oftentimes we talk about these homegrown creators, folks kind of just get started, but oh wow, now they have a following of, you know, a couple million folks. They're earning money through our revenue share program. They can come and move to LA and think about, you know, expanding their business or starting their own brand. And so I think, you know, at least from the stories I've heard from creators, I think our revenue share program has really helped people kind of take that leap, you know, to being a creator full-time, which is really cool. Can you talk a little bit more about how discovery works for, you know, for us? I remember we were sitting down with Daniel E from Spotify and he was talking about how Spotify is actually more editorial. So it's a mix of it's a bit of the algorithm and it's a bit of the editorial of like, this is what is deemed good content for you. How does Snap think about that when it comes to surfacing what is good content?

是的，我们在这方面正在进行一个相当大的变革。因为目前服务运作的方式之一，在我们称为第四个标签页但实际上是在故事页面上，有那些小故事方块。内容发现很大程度上是由那个方块的点击率驱动的，目的是让人们进入内容。所以人们真的在试图玩弄这些方块，就像 YouTube 上的缩略图一样。没错。结果，有时最好的方块，但不一定是最好的内容，被推到了顶部。我想我们早在 2017 年之前就开始做算法排序的内容了。记得当时是你朋友喜欢的内容会进入你的信息流。我们说，这是一种相当有限的过滤内容的方式。我们想把它扩展到更广泛的发布者和创作者基础，然后进行算法排序。但我们是在基于方块的 UI 中这样做的。展望未来，我们一直在测试 Simple Snapchat，这是对应用的一个相当激进的简化，变成三个屏幕：你的朋友在地图上，在聊天页面，相机，然后就是一个全屏的内容消费体验。我认为这将更容易确保我们分发最相关的内容，并停止围绕方块的游戏化。

Yeah, we're in the middle of a pretty big change on that. Because I think one of the ways that the service currently works today, on what we call the fourth tab but really on the stories page, you have those little story tiles. And far too much of the content discovery, you know, was actually driven by that tile click-through rate in order to get people into content. And so people were really trying to game the tiles, just like thumbnails on YouTube. Yeah, exactly. And so as a result, sometimes you know, maybe the best tile but not necessarily the best content was rising to the top. And I think, you know, we were early back, I guess must have been before 2017, on doing sort of algorithmically ranked content. Remember at the time it was what your friends liked, right, would go into your feed. And we said, I think that's a pretty limited way to approach filtering content. We want to broaden that out to a much bigger base of publishers and creators and then algorithmically rank it. But we did that in a tile-based UI. And I think, you know, as we're looking to the future, we've been testing Simple Snapchat, which is a pretty radical simplification of the app into three screens: really your friends in the map, you know, in the chat page, the camera, and then just a full-screen content consumption experience. And I think that's going to make it a lot easier to make sure we're distributing the most relevant content and, you know, kind of stop the gamification around the tiles.

哇，这真的很有趣。还是打开相机？还是打开相机？是的，是的。不过如果你是 Snapchat Plus 订阅用户，你可以设置默认进入页面。好的，这很有意思。

Wow, that's really interesting. Still opening to the camera? Still opening to the camera? Yeah, yeah. Although if you're a Snapchat Plus subscriber, you can set your default entry page. Okay, yeah, that's interesting.

我认为短视频竖屏视频的格局显然经历了很多。你怎么看待关于 TikTok 禁令的讨论，以及它发生的现实可能性？

I mean, I think you know, the landscape of short-form vertical video has obviously been through a lot. Like, what do you make of the conversations around the TikTok ban and the realistic nature of that happening?

嗯，看看过去几天发生的事件，我认为这真的会火上浇油，尤其是在国家安全方面。因为基本上他们所有的担忧在过去几天都成真了，对吧？没错。TikTok 实际上能够影响美国总统发布一项行政命令，这基本上削弱了国会和最高法院，对吧，在 9-0 的裁决中。所以我认为所有国家安全人士都会想，哇，这个平台的影响力太大了，不能由他们认为是外国对手的东西控制。以前这只是假设，现在他们会说这不再是假设了。就像我们刚刚看到的那样。所以我认为，尽管人们可能暂时松了一口气，希望达成协议，但国家安全界真的会把这当作问题的具体证据。

Well, just you know, looking at the events of the last couple of days, I think that's going to really feed the fire on the national security side. Because essentially all of their concerns came true over the past couple days, right? Right. TikTok actually was able to influence the president of the United States to issue an executive order that, you know, essentially undermines Congress and the Supreme Court, right, in a 9-0 ruling. And so I think all the national security folks were like, whoa, this platform has way too much influence to be controlled by what they deem to be a foreign adversary. They now kind of, it was hypothetical, now they're going to say it's not hypothetical anymore. Like we just saw that happen. And so I do think, you know, in many ways, even though folks are maybe breathing a brief sigh of relief and hoping a deal will get done, I do think that the national security community is really going to now use this as concrete evidence that there's a problem.

哦，这真的很有趣。有什么有趣的？我没听说过这个。我在任何地方都没听过这个论点，但它在逻辑上是合理的。但确实，至少据我所知，这个观点在任何地方都找不到，当然不在 TikTok 上。

Oh, that's really interesting. What is so interesting? I had not heard that. I haven't heard that argument anywhere, but it makes logical sense. But yeah, that is nowhere to be found, at least as far as I know, certainly not on TikTok.

你与政府、白宫的关系如何？似乎现在我们看到社交平台显然有非常直接的关系。甚至在就职典礼上看到马克·扎克伯格、埃隆·马斯克、孙正义的画面，你会觉得，哦，有趣，有很多直接的关系。我猜我们作为创作者使用的复杂内容平台也是如此，直接相关。是的，我想那对我来说是第一批画面之一，让我觉得，哦，是的，这就是媒体，对吧？我想就像我们都在上面制作媒体的媒体平台。我不知道，我不知道该怎么理解。我猜是政府和这些内容平台之间的关系。

What is your relationship to, you know, even the government, the White House? It seems like now we're watching social platforms obviously have very direct relationships. Even the image at the inauguration of seeing, you know, Mark Zuckerberg, Elon Musk, Sun Pai, like you're like, oh interesting, there's like direct, there's a lot of direct relationships. I'd assume with the complex content platforms that we use as creators as well, like directly there. Yeah, I guess it was like one of the first images for me that was like, oh yeah, that is this is the media, right? I guess like the media platforms that we all are producing media on. I don't know, I don't know what to make of it. I guess in like the relationship between the government and these content platforms.

嗯，在我看来，无论哪个政府，都真正认识到技术平台的重要性，对吧？我认为拜登政府非常关注它们过于强大，对吧？有很多诉讼，尤其是围绕垄断商业行为之类的事情。现在说本届政府会做什么还为时过早。但我确实认为就职典礼是一个真实的例子，说明了理解这些技术平台有多强大的重要性。而且我认为，许多技术平台与政府有着巨大、非常战略性的重要关系。所以我理解他们为什么如此关注这种关系。总的来说，如果看看我们如何建立 Snap，我们一直远离政治，我们不进行政治捐款之类的事情。我们通常不参与政治，除非是为了服务我们的社区，对吧？所以我们在信任和安全方面与很多人打交道。例如，在世界各地，我们与执法部门合作，以确保我们能够保护我们的社区，并努力让掠夺者或罪犯远离我们的平台等等。所以当我们与政府接触时，真的是为了服务我们的社区。

Well, it does seem to me that there's a real recognition, regardless of the administration, of the importance of technology platforms. Right? I think the Biden administration was very focused on them being too powerful, right? And there was a lot of litigation, you know, especially around sort of monopolistic business practices and these sorts of things. I think it's too early to say what this administration will do. But I do think the inauguration was a real example of the importance of understanding how powerful these technology platforms are. And I think, you know, many of these technology platforms have huge, very strategic, important relationships with the government. So I understand why they're so focused on that relationship. I think generally, if I look at how we've built Snap, we've stayed out of the political, you know, we don't make political donations and this sort of thing. We don't, you know, typically engage politically unless it's in service of our community, right? So we engage with folks a lot on the trust and safety side. So, you know, around the world we engage with law enforcement, for example, to really make sure that we can protect our community and work to keep, you know, predators or criminals off our platform and that sort of thing. So when we engage with government, it's really in service of our community.

除此之外，社交平台与政府的关系中，有没有哪些方面会影响内容创作者分发和创作内容的方式，除了对用户的伤害和安全之外？

Outside of that, are there any aspects of the relationship with the social platform and the government that could impact content creators in the way we distribute and create content, outside of like harm and safety to users?

嗯，在美国，有了第一修正案，我认为创作者和平台有很大的自由度。我认为第一修正案的实际含义被扭曲了，对吧？很多平台基本上在说，我们支持第一修正案，所以我们平台上的任何人都应该能说任何话。但这有点……

Uh, here in the United States with the First Amendment, you know, I think creators and platforms have a huge amount of latitude. There's sort of, I think, been a distortion of what the First Amendment actually means, right? A lot of platforms are basically saying, you know, we support the First Amendment, so anyone on our platform should be able to say anything. But that's sort of...

对第一修正案的误解在于：它规定政府不能告诉平台或创作者该做什么，对吧？所以实际上，平台可以根据第一修正案选择任何它想要的内容准则或政策。我认为这里有一些误导，很可能是因为人们不想审核内容，因为一旦审核，参与度就会下降。我认为这一点已经相当明确了。但至少在美国，这与欧洲不同——欧洲有一套庞大而复杂的内容监管体系——但在美国，我认为创作者和平台有很大的自由度来决定他们想要分发什么。

Misconstruing what the First Amendment does: it says the government can't tell a platform or a creator what to do, right? So actually, the platform can choose whatever content guidelines or policies it wants under the First Amendment. I think there's been a little bit of misdirection, mostly probably because folks don't want to moderate content because when they do, engagement goes down. I think that's been pretty well understood. But here in the United States at least, which is different even from Europe—Europe has a huge, very complex regulatory regime around content—but here in the United States, I think creators and platforms have a lot of latitude to decide what they want to distribute.

你有没有觉得，你做了 Future Freshman，然后又做了这个应用，然后——你懂我的意思吗？你的人生彻底改变了。你的第二次尝试就像是——我相信你肯定有过更多尝试，对吧？作为有创造力的人，你有很多想法，也尝试了很多次，但这一切真的太疯狂了，完全不可思议。你能跟我聊聊它崛起的过程吗？哪怕只是作为一个有创造力的人，对我们来说，每当我们做出一些东西，你永远不知道把它放到世界上后人们会不会喜欢，而当人们喜欢的时候，那是世界上最好的感觉。你知道，当你把某样东西放到世界上，你会想，‘天哪，人们看到了我看到的那个样子。’拥有一个对世界的视角，把它设计成某种东西，然后让它以这样的规模被接受——那种体验一定非常疯狂。

Is it ever lost on you that you made Future Freshman, then you make this app, and it's—do you know what I mean? Your whole life has changed forever. Your second go at it was like—I'm sure there were more goes at it, right? As creative individuals, you have a lot of ideas and a lot of goes at it, but it's pretty crazy that it's completely wild. Yeah, kind of unimaginable. Can you just talk me through a little bit of what the rise of it was like? Even as a creative person, for us anytime we've made things, you never know when you put it out into the world if people are going to be into it or not, and it's the best feeling in the world when people are into it. You know, when you put something out in the world, you're like, 'Oh my God, people see it the way I see it.' To have a perspective on the world and design it into something and then have it be adopted at this scale—the experience of that must have been pretty wild.

这太有趣了，而且我们是和朋友们一起做到的，这更疯狂了。这就是它的意义所在。能和 Bobby 一起做这件事——在学校时我就住在他对门——能一起做这件事，还有所有早期加入的朋友们。当时有七八个人住在我爸在 Toyopa 的房子里，直到他当时的女朋友、现在的妻子走进来，看到有个人睡在沙发上，盖着她送给我爸的圣诞毯子，她说，‘够了，你们需要找个办公室。’所以，是的，有太多美好的回忆。但我认为，能和朋友们一起做这件事，就是最棒的部分。

It's so much fun, and we got to do that with our friends, which is even crazier. That's what's made it. Being able to do it with Bobby—I lived across the hall from him in school, and to be able to do this together, and all of our friends that joined in the early days. There were seven or eight of us living in my dad's house on Toyopa until his then-girlfriend, now wife, walked in and one of the guys was sleeping on the couch with a blanket she had gotten my dad for Christmas, and she was like, 'Enough, you guys need to get an office.' So yeah, just so many great memories. But I think to be able to do it together with our friends has been the best part.

对我来说，我们正在谈论你与政府的关系，以及这些平台——所有我们二十出头时出现的平台——现在如何影响了人类彼此互动的方式、我们获取信息的方式、我们信任什么以及我们娱乐的方式，这太疯狂了。像你这样的这一代人能产生如此大的影响，并且为像我们这样的人创造了创业的机会，这太令人惊叹了。我在洛杉矶长大，和好莱坞没有任何联系；我的父母是移民，但我真的很想成为一名电影制作人、一个创意人，我很难找到一条路。后来，上传视频到 YouTube 成了那条路，这太不可思议了——如果早十年，这根本不可能。所以这对我来说太神奇了。现在我想到下一个篇章。今天早上我们聊到体验 Spectacles 的演示时，我的一个想法是——我们开玩笑说过去一年我们看到了很多 AR，我们做了很多演示，有时我觉得我在对我父母拉响警报，因为我看着他们，想摇醒他们，说‘你们根本不知道即将发生什么。’在一些闭门的人工智能简报会上也是如此，你会想，‘天哪，这一切都在发生。’但我想听听你的看法：对我来说，不是担忧，而是作为创作者我会思考的一件事是，随着技术本身变得更具娱乐性——比如戴 Spectacles 是一种娱乐体验——我们对娱乐和内容的容量是否有限？技术本身会成为娱乐吗？这说得通吗？

It's just so crazy to me that we're having this conversation about your relationship to the government and how big these platforms—all these platforms from the era of us being in our early 20s—have now influenced the way humans engage with each other, the way we get information, what we trust, and what we are entertained with. It is just so amazing to me that this cohort of individuals like yourself have impacted at such scale and also created situations for people like us to launch businesses. Growing up in LA, by no means was I connected to anyone in Hollywood; my parents are immigrants, but I really wanted to be a filmmaker, a creative, and I really struggled to find a pathway in. Then uploading videos to YouTube was the path, which is insane—to do that 10 years prior, it just wasn't even possible. So it's just amazing to me. And I think about now, the next chapter. As we talked about getting a demo of Spectacles this morning, one of my thoughts was—as we were joking that we've seen so much AR in the past year, we've gotten a lot of demos, and sometimes I feel like I'm sounding the alarms to my parents because I'm looking at them and I want to shake them, like 'You don't even know what's coming.' And in somewhat closed-door briefings on AI as well, you're like, 'Oh my God, it's all happening.' But I wanted to get a sense from you: one of my not concerns but things that I think about for us as creators is, as technology gets more entertaining itself—like wearing Spectacles is an entertaining experience—will we have a limited capacity for entertainment and content? Is technology going to be entertainment? Does that make sense?

是的，这说得通。我有几个想法。首先，我们不应该忘记内容是人类关系的核心，对吧？无论是家人依偎在一起看电影，还是人们分享一个他们认为朋友会喜欢或感兴趣的视频，我确实认为内容是我们彼此联系的重要方式。所以我不认为这会消失。但我们应该问一个问题：我们如何让计算机变得更有吸引力、更丰富、更容易与朋友一起使用？我认为，仅看增强现实的教育潜力，它就非常了不起。所以我认为没有理由不让这些体验超越屏幕。我确实认为屏幕在很多方面都非常有限。所以我认为未来的内容创作者会把更多时间花在增强现实中更沉浸式的体验上，我认为这将成为一种重要的娱乐形式，同时也是学习、生产力等等。

Yeah, that does make sense. I have a couple thoughts here. I think one is that we shouldn't forget that content is at the center of human relationships, right? Whether it's cuddling up as a family and watching a movie, or people sharing a video that they think their friend will like or be interested in, I do think content is such an important part of the way we all relate to one another. So I don't think that's going away at all. But I think we should ask the question: how can we make computers something that are much more engaging, much more enriching, much easier to use together with friends? And I think, just looking at the educational potential of augmented reality, it is extraordinary. So I do think there's no reason why those sorts of experiences shouldn't transcend the screen. I do think in many ways screens are very limiting. So I do think content creators in the future are going to spend more time on more immersive experiences in augmented reality, and I think that will become an important form of entertainment, but also learning, productivity, and those sorts of things.

预期的时间线是什么？我确定这很难回答，但当我试图向我妈妈解释 AR 正在发生什么时，我说，‘我告诉你，它们戴在你脸上，你能看到这个，你能触摸那个，’我什么时候可以告诉她，这对她来说可能成为现实，真正地在世界中移动？

What's the expected timeline? I'm sure this is difficult to answer, but when I'm trying to explain to my mom what's happening with AR, and I'm like, 'I'm telling you, they're on your face and you can see this and you can touch that,' when can I tell her that this may be a reality for her, truly moving throughout the world?

我认为到本十年末。我们已经这样认为有一段时间了，并且根据我们的路线图进行了投资。所以我认为你肯定能看到在本十年末之前更广泛的采用，最晚差不多就是那个时候。这与技术向更小、更贴合尺寸的进步有关。这些绝对是重要的驱动因素。我们关注的重点之一是光学引擎——那个将光投射到波导上的小投影仪，波导就是镜框中的那片玻璃。这是我们投资的一个大领域。让它更高效将大大推动功耗的降低。然后我们在操作系统方面做了很多工作，以针对低功耗芯片等进行优化，从而得到一副更流线型的眼镜。

I think by the end of this decade. We've sort of felt that way for quite some time and kind of invested against that on our roadmap. So I think you could definitely see much more widespread adoption by the end of the decade, almost at the latest at this point. And that has to do with advances in the technology going into a smaller, form-fitting size. Those are definitely big drivers. One of the big things we focused on is the optical engine—the little projector that projects light on the waveguide, which is that glass in the frame. That's a big area of investment for us. Making that a lot more efficient will be a big driver of power consumption. And then we're doing a lot on the operating system side to optimize that for lower power chips and those sorts of things, so that you get a much more streamlined pair of glasses.

我喜欢 Spectacles 的一点是，我们不需要戴任何东西就能——没有手铐。是的，你知道，我们在……测试了 Orion。

I liked that with the Spectacles, we didn't have to wear anything to be able to—no handcuffs. Yeah, well, like you know, we tested Orion when we were up in...

在帕洛阿尔托，你戴着一个腕带，那真是一次很酷的体验。但让我觉得有意思的是，用 Spectacles 时你不需要任何其他东西，就这么直接操作。从外形因素来看，Meta 对 Ray-Ban 的做法其实非常有趣也非常聪明，因为有人愿意戴那些眼镜，虽然它们显然没有 AR 眼镜的计算能力，但有趣的是人们会戴它们，而且你几乎注意不到，它就像一个人们会戴的知名品牌。所以我真的很想看到这什么时候以及如何实现。很大程度上是因为每当我体验 AR 时，尤其是今早体验 Spectacles 时，我们一直在讨论一个问题：我们是否认为 20 或 30 年后，人们回头看人类弯腰驼背对着手机的样子，会像我们现在看飞机上抽烟的人一样？你觉得我们的孩子会不会说，“什么？你们这些人……”就像那些家庭晚餐的照片一样？这是一种奇怪的体验。当然，在我跟你说话时，周围有一个界面也很奇怪，但戴上眼镜后，你确实感觉重新获得了与世界的互动，以一种有趣的方式恢复了你的姿态，解放了你的双手。我不知道如何向没有体验过的人解释这一点。我确实认为，即使是正在收听和观看这个节目的人也会觉得，“这些人说的是一种不切实际的现实，不是真的。”但当你体验过之后，你会觉得，“哦，作为人类，眼神交流很重要，姿态也很重要。”我们甚至还没开始讨论对视力的所有影响，对吧？近视，所有这些因为整天盯着屏幕而产生的问题，都可以通过这类产品解决。是的，这让我很着迷，因为虽然可能还要很久，但在我即将有孩子的时候，我经常想，他 15 岁时的生活会是什么样子？在你看来，未来是什么样的？

In Palo Alto, you wear like a wristband for that and that was a really cool experience. But it was interesting to me that with Spectacles you don't have anything else, you're just operating like that. I think from a form factor perspective, what Meta has done with Ray-Ban is actually really interesting and really smart, because there are people who will wear those and obviously those don't have the computing power of AR glasses, but it's interesting that people will wear those and you almost don't notice, and it's like a recognizable brand that people are wearing. So I'm really interested to see when and how that materializes. Largely because whenever I've experienced AR, and this morning with the Spectacles, the one thing we've been talking about is: do we think that in 20 or 30 years from now, people will look back at humans hunched over phones in the same way that we look at people smoking on airplanes? Like, do you think our kids will be like, "What? You guys all..." like these images of families at dinner like this? It's a bizarre experience. And of course it's also bizarre to have an interface around you while I'm talking to you, but with the glasses it does feel like you get your engagement with the world back, you get your posture back in an interesting way, you get your hands back. And I don't know how to explain that to people who haven't experienced it. I do think that even people listening and watching this will be like, "This is a far-fetched reality that these guys are talking about, it's not real." But when you experience it, you go like, "Oh, as humans, eye contact matters a lot and your posture matters a lot." And we haven't even started talking about all the implications for eyesight, right? Myopia, all these issues people are struggling with because they're staring at screens all day long, they can be solved with these sorts of products. Yeah, so that fascinates me because it could be a very long time from now, but on the precipice of having a kid, I think a lot about what is his version of being 15 years old going to be like. What's that in your mind? Like, what does the future look like?

我们的愿景，我和团队一直在讨论的、我们真正想在世界上实现的是：我想坐在家里，望向窗外，看到我们的四个孩子在外面跑来跑去，然后看着我的妻子说，“他们就是不肯离开那该死的电脑。”对吧？这应该是我们对电脑的愿景：我们的孩子可以戴着眼镜在外面，一起跑跑跳跳，做一些有趣又能学到东西的事情，而且这种方式能支持所有那些我们知道对人类互动至关重要的东西。你提到了眼神交流之类的事情，但还有到户外去、跑来跑去、和朋友在一起。所以我认为我们应该对电脑有更大的抱负。我的意思是，它们基本上已经作为屏幕存在了非常非常久，我认为很快它们将变得更加沉浸于世界，成为人们可以分享的东西。这太疯狂了。

Our vision, what I've really talked about with our team, what we're really trying to make real in the world is: I want to be sitting at home, look out the window, see our four kids running around outside, and look at my wife and be like, "They won't get off the damn computer." Right? That should be our vision for computers: that our kids can be outside wearing glasses, running around playing together, doing something that's fun and teaches them something hopefully, but in a way that supports all those things we know are so important to human interaction. You mentioned things like eye contact, but also getting outside, running around, being together with friends. So I think we should just have a lot more ambition for what computers are. I mean, they've basically been screens for a very, very long time, and I think pretty soon they're going to be much more immersive in the world and something that people can share. That's so crazy.

是的，对我来说，我完全赞同。我总说我很庆幸自己在小学时还没有智能手机，甚至高中时也没有，因为那就是全部。我会回家，给朋友打电话看他们在不在，然后我们就出去玩，一整天都在外面。去 Village，没错。骑滑板车去 Village，去 P. Skates 买个新滑板，去 Savon，滑板……是的，我都干过，都干过。

Yeah, I mean for me, I'm definitely in line with that. I always say that I'm so grateful that I was in elementary school before I had a smartphone, or even in high school really, because that's all it was. It was like I'd come home, call my friends and see if they were there, and we'd go play and we would just stay out all day. Go to the Village, that's right. Razor scooter yourself to the Village, go to P. Skates, get a new deck, go to Savon, skate the... yeah, listen, I did it all, I did it all.

那么，在所有这些变化发生的情况下，你有什么建议？你认为创作者应该思考什么？甚至回到我们在 TikTok 背景下讨论的内容，或者在我们展望可穿戴设备未来的时候，在新世界里什么才是重要的？在 AI、AR、平台不断变化的情况下，从你的角度看，什么才是重要的？

What advice then, with all these changes happening, like what do you think creators should be thinking about? Even back to what we're talking about in the context of TikTok, or in the context of even as we look into the future of wearables, like what matters in the new world? With AI, AR, changing platforms, like what's in your perspective, what matters?

嗯，我确实认为，在很多方面，很多人对 TikTok 的一些变化有些否认。我认为这 75 天的窗口期，无论最终结果如何，都是一个绝佳的机会，让人们认真对待这件事，并思考如何在一系列平台上进行多元化布局。因为最终，我认为无论平台如何，随着时间的推移，肯定还会有更多新平台出现，真正持久的是与观众的真实连接。所以我认为很多人都有这种连接。我认为这是创作者在 Snapchat 上通过 Stories 以及现在的 Spotlight 真正喜欢培养的东西。但我认为，这种真实的连接能够超越任何平台的变化。所以我认为，当创作者考虑投资于确保平台多元化，同时保持真实自我时，这就是你建立能够持续一生的粉丝群的方式。

Well, I do think in many ways, a lot of folks were sort of in denial about some of the TikTok changes. And I think this 75-day period, whatever happens at the end, is an amazing opportunity for people to take it seriously and to think about how to diversify across a set of platforms. Because ultimately, I think what endures, regardless of the platform and over time I'm sure there will be many more new platforms that arise, is that authentic connection with your audience. And so I think so many folks have that. I think it's something that creators really love to cultivate on Snapchat with Stories and now with Spotlight. But I think that authentic connection is what transcends any platform change. And so I think as creators think about just investing in making sure they diversify their platforms while staying true to who they are, I think that's how you build a following that can last a lifetime.

你是否了解 Z 世代甚至 Alpha 世代在你的平台上寻找什么样的内容？因为显然 Snapchat 是那些保留了非常年轻用户群的平台之一，而世界上的 Facebook 甚至 YouTube 都在关注，比如我们如何确保留住并吸引更年轻的受众？你认为 Snapchat 有什么特点留住了年轻用户？

Do you have any sense of what Gen Z and even Gen Alpha look for when it comes to content on your platform? Because obviously Snapchat is one of those platforms that has retained a very young user base, and something that the Facebooks of the world and even YouTube are looking at, like how do we make sure we hold on to and attract younger audiences? What do you think it is about Snapchat that has retained younger users?

我认为从根本上说，人们来 Snapchat 是为了朋友和家人，为了更好的沟通方式。我认为视觉沟通的乐趣在于，你可以分享那些无法用语言表达的东西。我的意思是，这基本上就是价值主张：在某一刻，你可以分享你的感受或你在做什么，而不是花一两分钟在短信上打字。我只是觉得，一旦人们意识到视觉沟通是多么强大和简单，他们就不想再回到文字短信了。所以对我们来说，这始终是业务增长的驱动力。然后最终，当人们与朋友分享快照并进行交流时，有时他们想分享到自己的故事，最终他们会观看朋友的故事，然后观看创作者、出版商和其他内容合作伙伴的故事。所以我认为，只要我们继续专注于这个核心价值主张——帮助人们以一种在其他地方无法做到的方式与朋友和家人沟通——我们就能够继续增长我们的受众，并最终增长我们的内容业务。

I think fundamentally, people come to Snapchat for their friends and family, for a better way to communicate. I think what's so fun about communicating visually is that you can share things that can't be said. I mean, that's sort of the value proposition: in a moment, you can share how you feel or what you're doing, rather than spending a minute or two punching it out on text message. I just think as soon as folks realize how powerful and simple it is to communicate visually, they don't want to go back to texting. So for us, that's always driven the growth of the business. And then ultimately, as people are sharing snaps with their friends and communicating, sometimes they want to share to their Story, and ultimately they end up watching stories from friends and then watching stories from creators and publishers and other content partners. So I think as long as we continue to stay focused on that core value proposition of helping people communicate with their friends and family in a way they really can't do anywhere else, we'll be able to continue to grow our audience and ultimately to grow our content business as well.

Snap 目前有没有一个你最关心的问题，让你早上起来就想，“这是……”？

Is there a problem that Snap is facing right now that is top of mind for you, that when you get up you're like, "This is..."?

我们努力要搞清楚的事情，正是我们投入大量精力的方向。过去两年我们花了很多时间在广告平台上。要跟 Google 和 Meta 这种量级的公司竞争真的很难。我们有一个独特的受众群体，在其他平台上很难触达，我认为这是我们的真正资产。过去两年我们一直在大力投资改进广告平台，为广告主带来更好的效果，尤其是在直接响应业务和中小企业客户方面。因为归根结底，要想继续对平台进行再投资，我们必须推动广告业务的增长。这方面我们已经取得了不少进展，但它仍然是我们的首要任务。我们也在花很多时间思考未来。你提到 AI 很对，AI 对我们的业务极其重要，那是我们的一个重点。但我们在思考人们未来会如何使用 AI，我们认为那会是通过眼镜。所以最终，我们要确保做出正确的长期投资，这样当这些平台转型发生时，我们才能真正支持我们的社区，并希望打造出领先的产品。

The thing we need to try and figure out is what we're spending a lot of our energy on. A lot of what we spent time on over the last two years has been our advertising platform. It's really tough to compete with the Googles and Metas of the world at their scale. We have a unique audience that's hard to reach on other platforms. I think that's a real asset for us. But we've been investing a lot over the last two years on improving our advertising platform and driving better results for advertisers, especially in the direct response business and for small and medium-sized customers. Because ultimately, for us to be able to reinvest in the platform, we've got to drive the growth of our ad business. So we've made a lot of progress there, but that's still a real priority for us. And we're spending a lot of time thinking about the future. I think you're right to mention AI, which is hugely important to our business. That's a big focus for us. But then thinking about how people are going to be using AI in the future, we think that's going to be with glasses. And so ultimately, making sure that we're making the right long-term investments so that when these platform shifts occur, we can really support our community and hopefully build the leading product.

作为一家上市公司的 CEO 是什么感觉？

What's it like being a public company CEO?

其实我真的很喜欢。我本来不一定会这么想，但我非常喜欢。我喜欢这种纪律性。我喜欢季度节奏。我觉得我们很幸运，因为 Bobby 和我控制着公司，所以即使有季度节奏，我们也能做长期投资。我觉得如果我们做不到这一点，那就完全没意思了。

I really like it, actually. I didn't necessarily think I would, but I like it a lot. I like the discipline. I like the quarterly cadence, actually. I think we're very fortunate that Bobby and I control the business, so even though we're on this quarterly cadence, we can make long-term investments. I think if we weren't able to do that, it wouldn't be interesting at all, really.

因为你们从 2011 年起就一直坚持自己的观点。我们老是提起这个，但 UI 虽然不同，观点却是一样的。我们接触的很多应用，很少有能保留最初的设计和 UI 观点的。所以我觉得这很有意思，因为作为上市公司的 CEO，拥有设计观点和对产品感受的观点，有时候这些会相互矛盾，对吧？比如董事会的观点可能会占上风。

Because you guys have held firm on your perspective, like since 2011. We keep bringing it up, but the UI is different, yet it has the same perspective. A lot of the apps that we engage with, very few of them have retained the original perspective from a design and UI standpoint. So I find that to be really interesting, because being a public CEO and having a design perspective and a perspective on how things should feel, sometimes those can be at odds, right? Like the perspective of the board would kind of take over.

我觉得我们很幸运，因为我们已经正确了足够多次，即使是在早期。所以我认为眼镜是一个很好的例子。过去 10 年，我们一直在投资这个领域。直到今年，人们才说，'等等，整个 VR 元宇宙那套，算了，其实我们知道那不会成为一个有意义的平台。人们并不真的想要它。' 我们认为眼镜是未来，这也是我们 10 年来一直在投资的方向。所以我认为很多时候，整个行业需要一段时间才能转变过来。但我们发现，只要我们专注于为社区创造价值，真正打造出色的产品，最终随着时间的推移，一切都会水到渠成。

I think we're fortunate that we've now been right enough times that even when it's early. So I think glasses are a great example. Over the last 10 years, this is an area we've been investing. It wasn't really till this year people are like, 'Oh wait a minute, this whole VR metaverse thing, never mind, actually we know that's not going to be a meaningful platform. People don't actually want it.' We think glasses are the future, and that's what we've been investing against for 10 years. So I think often times it takes the broader industry a while to come around. But I think we've just found that if we can stay focused on delivering value for our community and really building great products, that ultimately over time, you know.

关于人性，你了解些什么？你推出了很多产品，我们聊过，这些产品后来被整个行业借鉴。通过你的视角和镜头，你觉得你对人与人之间的联系、人性学到了什么？这些年来，有哪些事情是你一直知道是对的，而且多次被验证？

What do you know about human nature? You've come up with a lot of products that, again, we talked about, have been adapted by the rest of the industry. What do you feel like you've learned about human connection, human nature through your perspective and lens? And what have you known across all these years to be right that many times?

这个问题问得好。我觉得我们真的很努力去体察那些小事。比如，我们刚开始做这个服务的时候，那时候智能手机的相机，你必须在拍照和录像模式之间切换。你还记得那个小开关吗？你得拨动开关才能录像。那种感觉有多烦人？每次我想录视频，都得去拨开关，它还会翻转，然后我就错过了那个瞬间，对吧？这就是为什么我们创造了点按拍照、长按录像。同一个按钮既能拍照又能录像。再比如故事功能，我们当时在倾听用户，他们跟我们聊起使用社交媒体的感受。他们觉得自己就像在一个巨大的 popularity contest 里被朋友评判。那种按时间倒序排列的信息流毫无意义，对吧？而且一点都不人性化。然后我们就想，历史上人们是怎么互相分享的？哦，他们按时间顺序讲故事，对吧？没有那种巨大的永久记录。人们不喜欢整天被嘲笑和取笑。实际上，没有那些点赞和评论，人们反而能更自在地表达自己。

That's a great question. I think we really try to have empathy for the little things. So for example, when we first started the service, back in the day on your smartphone camera, you had to toggle between photo and video mode. Do you remember the little switch? You had to hit the toggle to record a video. And that feeling of just how annoying is that? Like every time I want to make a video, I have to go toggle, and it flips over, and then I miss the moment, right? That's what led us to create tap for photo, hold for video. The idea that you can use the same button to make a photo or a video. Or with stories, we were just listening to people, and they were talking to us about the way they felt using social media. Right? They felt like they were just being judged by their friends in a giant popularity contest. That the reverse chronological feed made no sense, right? And didn't feel human. And then we're just like, how have people shared with each other historically? Oh, they tell stories in chronological order, right? There isn't this huge permanent record. People don't like to be laughed at and made fun of all day long. Actually, people can feel comfortable expressing themselves without those sorts of likes and comments.

对，我听过你讲阅后即焚的消息是在模仿人类对话。这个观点很有意思。因为显然现在不算，我们正被全方位录制。但我们在进来之前的那段正常对话，就是阅后即焚的——没有记录。所以我们在那种环境里说话的舒适度是完全不同的。跟面前有麦克风和摄像头的时候完全不一样。我觉得很多时候，尤其是在科技行业，我们让技术驱动产品，而不是真正把人的需求放在中心。

Yeah, I heard you talk about ephemeral messaging mirroring human conversation. That's such an interesting note. Because obviously right now this doesn't count, because we're being recorded from every direction. But in a normal conversation we had prior to getting in here, it was ephemeral. There was no record of that conversation. So the comfort that we speak in that environment is very different. It's going to be different than when you have a mic in front of you and when you have cameras in front. And I think too often, especially in the technology business, we let the technology drive the product rather than really putting the human needs at the center.

所以，阅后即焚就是一个很好的例子。过去，在硬盘上覆写数据来擦除，比直接存储更贵，因为你写得越多，磁盘磨损越厉害，最终需要换新硬盘。所以实际上更好的做法是，'算了，我们不去删它，就放着，等以后覆写掉。' 所以我觉得，我们在技术中看到的很多有趣范式，其实是由技术限制驱动的，而不是什么对人们最好。所以我认为，我们在眼镜上玩得这么开心的原因之一，就是你体验到的整个 UI 都是自然的 UI。能直接看着你的手，按下按钮，用手捏取东西，这太神奇了。我觉得我们正越来越接近那种改变自身以适应人类需求的计算机，而不是强迫人类去适应计算机。我认为那将非常有价值。我一直在说的一件事是，我非常兴奋，因为技术的未来是一个没有唯一正确操作方式的世界。我觉得那非常解放。随着语音的出现，随着 AI 的出现，当我老了，当我的父母继续变老，他们也有可能使用某种科技产品。

So I mean, ephemerality is a good example of that. Back in the day, it was more expensive to write over the hard drive to erase the data than to just store it, because the more that you write over it, you actually wear out the disc and ultimately you need to get a new hard drive. So it's actually better to say, 'You know what, we're not actually going to go back and delete it, we'll just leave it and at some point we'll write over it.' So I think a lot of these interesting paradigms we have in technology are actually driven by the technological constraints rather than what's best for people. And so I think one of the reasons why we're having so much fun with the glasses is the entire UI you experience is a natural UI. It's wild to be able to just look at your hand, press the button, use your hands to pinch and grab things. I think we're getting closer and closer to computers that change to fit what humans need, rather than forcing humans to change to fit the computers. I think that's really going to be valuable. Something I've been saying a lot is that I'm really excited that the future of technology is a world where there's no right way to necessarily operate it. I think that's very liberating. That as voice comes into the picture, as AI comes into the picture, that when I'm older, when my parents continue to get older, they could potentially be using a piece of tech.

他们只需对它说话，它就能理解他们的说话方式，并按照他们的意愿行事，对吧？我们可以进入这样一个世界：技术不再是痛点，而是更贴合我们的实际生活方式。

Where they just talk to it and it understands the way that they talk and it does what they want it to do, right? And that we can go into this world where technology is not this like pain point, it just works more with us and how we actually live.

是的，我喜欢这个想法。

Yeah, I love that.

回顾这段旅程，有没有什么事情你希望当时做得不一样？我相信肯定有很多。

Looking back on the journey, is there anything you would have done different to this point? I'm sure there's a million things.

做得不一样？绝不会让 TikTok 投放广告。嗯，不会。

Would have done different? Would never have let TikTok advertise. Um, no.

他们是你们的大广告主吗？

Were they a big advertiser of yours?

巨大的。

Huge.

不会吧。你当时在想什么？

No way. What were you thinking at that time?

是啊，我是说，显然我们当时没有……嗯，没有。我认为多年来我们犯过很多错误，也有很多事情本可以做得不同，但我觉得，归功于团队，我们一直努力从这些错误中学习。

Yeah, I mean, you know, clearly we weren't... um, no. I think there are tons of mistakes and things we would have done differently over the years, but I think, you know, to the team's credit, we've tried to just learn from all those.

TikTok 曾是你们的广告主，这太有意思了。你们在所有主要平台都投广告。但你第一次看到它时，有没有觉得‘哦，这会成为一股文化力量’？因为我记得我第一次看到它时，觉得‘这没什么意思’。我第一次玩 TikTok 时，觉得‘这完全没意思’。

That's so interesting that TikTok was an advertiser. You advertise on every major platform. But did you, when you first saw it, like, were you like, 'Oh, there'll be a cultural force'? Because I remember when I first saw it, I was like, 'This is not interesting.' The first time I played with TikTok, I was like, 'This is not interesting at all.'

是的，我认为我们确实低估了速度——因为他们同时补贴生态系统的创作者端和观众端，机器学习改进的速度有多快，对吧？所以我认为他们确实能够将观众和创作者聚集在一起，并以惊人的速度迭代。

Yeah, and I think we really underestimated how quickly, you know, because they were subsidizing both the creator side of the ecosystem and the viewer side, how quickly the ML would improve, right? So I think they were really able to bring an audience and creators together and just iterate incredibly quickly.

他们与‘打开相机’相反，对吧？他们确实是相反的。为什么推荐系统不同或更好？或者为什么感觉不同？为什么 TikTok 与 Reels、Spotlight 或 Shorts 感觉不同？就是感觉不同。你可能比我更有发言权。

They're the opposite of opening to the camera, right? They truly are the opposite. Why is the ranking system different or better? Or how does it feel different? Why does TikTok feel different from Reels or Spotlight or shorts? It just feels different. You might be better positioned than me.

我认为他们投入的一件事实际上是人工策展和编辑流程，真正努力推动趋势。我认为他们做的一件事——我真的很钦佩这一点——是他们利用趋势来激发创作的方式。就像我们之前讨论的，通过阅后即焚降低创作门槛，或者通过滤镜降低创作门槛，他们通过趋势降低了门槛。我认为这让人们感到舒适，愿意尝试制作新视频之类的事情。所以我认为这种人们尝试和实验趋势的社区感，是他们的核心所在。

I think one of the things that they've invested in is actually the manual curation and the editorial process, so really try to boost trends. And I think one of the things that they did—I mean, I really admire this—is the way that they use trends to inspire creation. So just like we were talking about lowering the barrier to creativity with ephemerality or lowering the barrier to creativity with lenses, they lowered the barrier with trends. And I think that makes people feel comfortable trying to practice making a new video or that sort of thing. So I think there's that sort of sense of community of people trying and experimenting with trends that's so core to who they are.

YouTube 上创作者和观众之间的差距实际上变得非常大，而当你去其他平台，比如甚至 Snap，你会觉得‘我实际上可以同时成为创作者和消费者’，这很有趣。这几乎像一个互动游戏，对吧？你看一段内容，然后想‘我也可以制作那段内容’。而在 YouTube 上，越来越难说‘我是观众，我可以成为类似内容的创作者’，因为 YouTube 基本上就是我们小时候的电视。所以，是的，观察这个格局确实很有趣。

The gap on YouTube has actually gotten really big from a creator and an audience member, whereas when you go to other platforms like even a Snap, you're like, 'I can actually be a creator and a consumer at the same time,' which is fun. It's almost like an interactive game, right? You get to watch a piece of content and you're like, 'I could also make that piece of content.' YouTube, it's getting really hard to go, 'I'm a viewer and I can be a creator of similar content,' because YouTube's essentially what TV was when we were younger. So yeah, it's interesting to watch the landscape for sure.

我最后一个问题。我知道你提过 Bobby 好几次，考虑到 Samir 和我已经紧密合作了 13 年，我很好奇：你和他的关系有什么特别之处，让你们能够这么多年一起高效工作、共同解决问题？

The last question that I have for you. I know you've brought up Bobby a couple of times, and considering that Samir and I have worked closely together for 13 years, I'm curious: what is it about your relationship with him that has allowed you guys to work well, to work efficiently, to get through problems together after all these years?

这个问题问得好。你知道，有时候你就是和别人合得来，对吧？我和 Bobby 就是这样。我认为我们都有非常不同的视角和不同的优势，但是，天哪，如果我能从 Bobby 那里得到智慧之言或建议，那对我来说几乎是最有价值的东西。所以我认为，他的思维方式、他的创造力，恰好补充了我的，我们在思考如何发展业务、改进产品、投资一些疯狂的新技术等方面能够相互促进。我们就是喜欢一起工作。我的意思是，那是《未来新生》的最大收获：那完全是个灾难，但我们觉得‘天哪，这太有趣了，太棒了’。我认为认识到‘哇，好吧，我们找到了我们热爱做的事情，我们热爱一起工作’，这已经成为整个事情的基石。

What a great... you know, sometimes you just click with people, you know? And that really happened for me and Bobby. I think we both have very different perspectives, we had different strengths, but like, man, if I can get words of wisdom from Bobby or his advice, like there's almost nothing more valuable to me. So I think, you know, the way that he thinks, his creativity, just kind of complements mine, and I think we're able to just feed each other in terms of how we think about growing the business or evolving the product or investing in some crazy new technology or something like that. And we just love working together. I mean, that was the big takeaway from Future Freshman: it was a total disaster, but we were like, 'Man, this is so fun, this is awesome.' And I think that learning that, like, 'Wow, okay, we found something we love doing, we love working together,' that's been kind of the cornerstone of the whole thing.

你们必须一起经历一些失败的项目。我们的失败项目比成功的多，所以我觉得这很有道理。你们呢？

You got to have some failed projects together. We've had more failed projects than successful ones, so I think that makes a lot of sense. What about for you guys?

我认为是相似的。就像，每天早上聚在一起，事情进展不顺利，但你仍然乐在其中，而且你开始步入二十多岁后期，你的朋友在 Snap 工作，取得了巨大成功，Snap 上市了，他们买了房子，而我们只是在制作 YouTube 视频，没多少人看，但做得非常开心。我们也有过早期成功：2014 年我们卖掉了公司，那是一个 YouTube 上的体育频道，然后我们见识了更大的媒体世界，获得了前排座位。我们当时非常傲慢，以为可以再来一次，但就是做不到。花了很长时间。我们觉得自己不可战胜，像是互联网见过的最伟大的创作者，然后你摔了个大跟头，心想‘天哪，没人在乎’。一起经历这些是谦卑的体验，但要坚持手艺。现在，作为三十多岁、经历了许多起起落落的人，你获得了如此多的视角，甚至从生活角度来看，一些只有我们才能经历的疯狂起伏。我们拥有完全相同的经历，这很罕见，所以我认为我们对什么重要的看法相当一致。随着年龄增长，在工作和创意领域，找到价值观一致的人是很罕见的。作为创作者，你花在创作上的时间比享受成果的时间多，对吧？所以你必须享受与某人一起制作的过程，这就是全部。所以我认为这就是我对我们关系的评价：就是一起制作东西。

I think it's similar. It's like, when you get together every morning and the thing isn't working, but you're still having fun doing it, and you're starting to push into your late 20s, and your friends are working at Snap and finding a ton of success, and Snap IPOs, and they're buying houses, and we're just making YouTube videos that very few people are watching, but having a blast doing it. And we also had an early success: we sold our company in 2014, which was a sports network on YouTube, and then we got to see the world of bigger media and got to have a front-row seat. We just were really arrogant and thought we could do it again, and we just couldn't. It took a long time. We felt like we were invincible, like we are the greatest creatives the internet has seen, and then you fall flat on your face and you're like, 'Oh my God, no one cares.' It's a humbling experience to go through that together, but to stay committed to the craft. Now you gain so much perspective as guys in their mid-30s who have been through a lot of ups and downs, and now even from a life perspective, some pretty wild ups and downs that only we can experience. It's pretty rare that we've had these exact same experiences, so I think our perspective on what is important is pretty aligned. And that's a rare thing as you get older in work and creativity, to find people that you align with from a values perspective. You spend more of the time as a creative creating the work than enjoying the results of the work, right? So you have to enjoy the process of making the thing with someone, and that's the whole thing. So I think that's what I would say about our relationship: it's just like making the things.

太棒了。你关于 Snap 上市的说法很有趣。我们的类似经历是在兄弟会：当你找到工作时，你会为每个人买一桶工作啤酒，你懂我的意思吗？所以一个接一个，每个人都找到了工作，每个人都兴奋不已。我们就像‘没工作’。这可能是好事，可能对你有好处。

That's awesome. Your comment about the Snap IPO is funny. Our equivalent of that was in our fraternity: when you got a job, you would get a job keg for everyone, you know what I mean? So one after one, everyone's getting a job, everyone's so excited. We're like, 'No job.' This is probably good, probably good for you.

是啊，从纯粹的对比角度来看，Snap 上市很艰难，住在威尼斯，感觉就像……

Yeah, the Snap IPO was tough from a pure comparison perspective, living in Venice and being like...

天哪，所有这些年轻人都变得如此富有。但同时，我们有一种非理性的信念。当我们离开第一家公司时，我们非常傲慢，也确实被教训了，但我们坚持住了那个非理性的信念：只要我们合作，就一定能做出点什么。我和另一个与创意伙伴长期合作的人聊过，他说当他们一起工作时，一加一等于三。本来应该等于二，但不知为何他们合作时却等于三。我想我们已经向自己证明了这一点，并一直坚持着。好事成双，这太棒了。好了，老兄，非常感谢你。我真的很感激。希望我们能有更多机会聊天。我对这一切的未来走向充满好奇。我开始更长远地思考沟通、我们彼此之间的信任，以及人类与技术将如何互动。能亲眼目睹这一切，我感到很兴奋。太棒了。非常感谢，祝贺你取得的所有成功。对于这场彻底的混乱我很抱歉，但你的宝宝很快就要出生了，这会让一切变得更好，所以我们都没事。谢谢。

Oh man, like all these young people are becoming so well off. But at the same time, we had an irrational belief. When we left that first company, we were so arrogant and we did get humbled, but we managed to hold on to the irrational belief that when we work together, something would come of it. I spoke to someone else who worked with a creative partner for a long time, and he said it just seemed like when they worked together, one plus one equaled three. It was supposed to equal two, but for some reason when they worked together, it equaled three. I think we had proven that to ourselves and held on to it. It's awesome that lightning does strike twice. Well, dude, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. I hope we get more opportunities to chat. I'm so curious to see where the future of all this goes. I'm starting to think much further down the line about communication, our own trust in each other, and how humans and technology will engage with each other. I'm excited to be able to watch it firsthand. Awesome. Well, thanks so much and congrats on all of your success. I'm so sorry about this total disaster, but your baby is coming soon, which is going to make everything better, so we're all okay. Thank you.

酷。谢谢，Evan。聊得很开心。我的意思是，在节目之前、期间和之后，我们都和 Evan 进行了很棒的对话。我认为创作者和 Snap 的关系一直不是线性的，我想这是因为 Snap 是一个你出于多种原因打开的 App，可能主要是为了和朋友互动。所以一个你打开是为了和朋友互动、同时上面也有创作者的平台，是一个非常不同的平台。很难把它和 YouTube 相比。我甚至问了一个问题：YouTube 在电视上的观看时长在增长，Snapchat 是否对此感兴趣？听起来并不像。甚至很难把 Snapchat 这样的 App 和 YouTube 相提并论。我认为我们在短视频 App 上经常这样做——试图把 Reels 和 TikTok 与 YouTube 比较，因为我们显然非常以 YouTube 为原生。但你会意识到它们是如此不同的平台，尤其是 Snapchat，因为它关乎互动和消息。它不是一个像 YouTube 那样为了娱乐而娱乐的 App。我们不会用 YouTube 来向最亲密的朋友更新动态。YouTube 也不关乎速度。当火灾发生时，Snap 实际上是一个非常有视觉感的资源，可以看到发生了什么。地图本身就是一个资源，可以看到谁正在从 Palisades 发帖，点进去就能看到那个时刻的样子。当我想到 TikTok 时，我认为我们之所以经常比较 TikTok 和 YouTube，是因为它们在某种程度上都是后仰式体验。确实如此——这两个其实非常相似。我去那里主要是为了娱乐，观看，而不是互动。Instagram 和 Snap 更相似，因为它们都是消息类 App。我在 Instagram 上给朋友发消息，发内容，和他们联系。在 Snap 上，你发消息，然后和像 David Dobrik 这样的创作者互动。如果你想知道现在的 Snap 创作者是什么样子，就看 David Dobrik 的故事。我认为这就是大众眼中 Snap 创作的样子。但那些内容和朋友的内容看起来没什么不同。在 Instagram 上，我朋友的内容和创作者的内容看起来非常不同，但在 Snap 上不是这样。

Cool. Thanks, Evan. It was really fun to talk to. I mean, before the episode, during the episode, after the episode, we had great conversations with Evan. I think the relationship of creators and Snap has not been super linear, and I think it's because it's one of those platforms that you open for a multitude of reasons, probably primarily to engage with your friends. So a platform where you're opening it to engage with your friends and then there are also creators on there is a very different platform. It's hard to compare it to YouTube. There was even a question I asked about whether YouTube's watch time going up on TV is something Snapchat would be interested in, and it doesn't really sound like it. It's hard to even compare an app like Snapchat to YouTube. I think we do that a lot with short-form video apps—we try to do it with Reels and TikTok and compare them to YouTube because we are obviously so YouTube-native. But you realize they are such different platforms, specifically with Snapchat, because it is about interaction and messaging. It is not an entertainment-for-entertainment-sake app like YouTube is. We don't take YouTube to update our closest friends on what's happening. YouTube is also not about speed. When the fires were going on, Snap was actually a really visual resource to see what was going on. The map itself is a resource to see who is posting from the Palisades right now, and you click in and see what it looks like in that exact moment. When I think about TikTok, I think we compare TikTok and YouTube so much because they are both lean-back experiences in a way. That's true—those two are actually really similar. It's like I go there for entertainment primarily, watching, not interacting. Instagram and Snap are more similar in that they are messaging. I'm messaging my friends on Instagram, sending them content, connecting with them. On Snap, you're messaging and then engaging with creators like David Dobrik. If you want to see what a Snap creator looks like right now, just watch David Dobrik's stories. That's what Snap creation, I think, to the masses really looks like. But that content does not look different from your friend's content. On Instagram, my friend's content looks really different from creator content, but that's not the case on Snap.

从制作价值来看，视觉上，Snapchat 上的内容看起来就是 Snapchat 风格的内容。我认为这是因为强调相机打开到相机，并确保人们尝试使用手机相机，这保持了一种特定的美学。正如 Evan 所说，它保持了一定程度的真实性。我一直对在 Snap 上发布内容感兴趣，但总是有点不知所措。不知道为什么。为它剪辑内容从来都不是我的首要任务。但在过去一年里，我和公司里更多的人接触了，和更多利用这个平台的创作者聊了。我认为竖屏视频的世界，随着 TikTok 可能发生的变化，即将以不同的方式转变。Snap 是那些真正鼓励真实性的平台之一，而这种真实性在社交媒体上正开始消失。我可能已经引用过这句话无数次了，但 Jake Shane 对我们说过，最好的 TikTok 感觉就像你在和 FaceTime 朋友聊天。Ad nauseam 的意思是它应该让你恶心吗？因为我说了太多次，你可能觉得恶心了。哦，我想我明白 ad nauseam 的意思了，因为我经常提起它。但我认为 Snapchat 在这方面做到了极致。它仍然保留了社交媒体最初的样子：对人类生活不加滤镜的窥视。所以思考平台和创作者平台的未来，我认为 YouTube 将继续朝着与 Netflix 竞争的方向发展，与这种坐在沙发上看优质节目的体验竞争。现在我们彼此互动，还有购物的混合——他在节目中提到了购物，说 Snap 实际上比其他平台对购物有更大的影响力。我相信这一点，因为购买决策是通过口碑做出的，而制作价值在我和口碑之间制造了障碍。它不再像口碑了。但再看 Dobrik 的 snaps，你会觉得，是啊，他只是在对着手机摄像头说话。并不是说创作者广告比公司制作的广告表现好很多。如果你看 Snap 上的大多数广告，我喜欢的一点是，其他平台做得不好的是，大多数 Snap 广告看起来就像是用 Snap 相机拍摄的。那个平台上的一切都感觉很原生，这真的很有趣。在 YouTube 或 Instagram 上就不是这样。所以这对我来说真的很有趣，我很好奇这家公司会走向何方。

In terms of production value, visually, a Snapchat piece of content looks like a Snapchat piece of content. I think it's just because of the emphasis on the camera opening to the camera, and making sure people try and use the phone camera maintains a certain aesthetic. To Evan's point, it maintains a certain level of authenticity. I've always been interested in posting content on Snap, but I've always been a bit overwhelmed by it. I don't know why. Cutting content for it has just never been top of mind. But over the past year, I've engaged with so many more people from the company, talked to more creators who are utilizing the platform. I think the world of vertical video, with potentially whatever is going to happen with TikTok, is about to shift in different ways. Snap is one of those platforms that really encourages an authenticity that is starting to get lost on social media. I've brought up this quote probably ad nauseam, but when Jake Shane said to us that the best TikToks feel like you're on FaceTime with a friend. Does ad nauseam mean it should make you nauseous? Because I've said it so much that you might feel nauseous. Oh, I think I understand ad nauseam because I bring it up a lot. But I think Snapchat is like that to the extreme. It really still retains what social media originally was: just this unfiltered look into human beings' lives. So thinking about the future of platforms and creator platforms, I think YouTube will continue to go in the direction of competing with Netflix and competing with this sit-down-on-your-couch-and-watch-premium-programming. Now where we all engage with each other, and that mix of shopping—he said something in the episode about shopping, that Snap actually has more influence on shopping than other platforms. I believe that because purchase decisions are made through word of mouth, and production value creates a barrier between me and word of mouth. It no longer feels like word of mouth. But again, you watch Dobrik's snaps and you're like, yeah, he's just talking into a phone camera. Not to say that creator ads perform a lot better than ads made by the companies. If you look at most of the ads on Snap, something that I enjoy that I don't think other platforms do well is that most Snap ads are shot through like they look like they're from the Snap camera. Everything on that platform feels native, and that's really interesting. That's not the case on YouTube or Instagram. So that's really interesting to me, and I'm just really curious to see where the company goes.

因为他们已经专注可穿戴设备 10 年了，对吧。所以问题是，这是未来的方向吗？现在每家公司都在强调可穿戴设备。

because they've had an emphasis on wearables for 10 years now, yeah. So it's like, is that the direction? And every company now has an emphasis on wearables.

绝对是的，这看起来就是方向。而且我们之前也聊过，我们参加过很多演示会，见过很多有趣的东西，但很难真正理解——这真的会发生吗？但有趣的是，这些投资都是朝着押注未来 10 到 15 年的方向去的。

Absolutely, it's the direction it seems like. And you know, we've talked about this before where we've been in rooms and seen a lot of demos and a lot of interesting things, but it's hard to wrap your head around like, is this really about to happen? But it's interesting to see that these investments are being made in the direction of like a bet on 10, 15 years from now.

我很欣赏他谈论看屏幕有害时的现实主义态度。他有一个让我们盯着屏幕的产品，但作为家长，根据现有的信息，他理解这确实可能对眼睛有害。我们不知道。手机消费其实是一件很新的事情，正确的做法是重新思考计算机是什么。计算机不一定非得是一块屏幕。计算机应该是一种更贴合我们的东西。也许我只是被可穿戴设备的宣传洗脑了，但我听到这些时，确实觉得你说得对。我们应该拓展计算机的边界。我们不应该只想着盯着屏幕、弯腰驼背。而应该想想，15 年后，我们的孩子是不是真的能再次自由奔跑？不是因为我们叫他们去外面跑着玩，而是因为他们不再觉得离不开手机了。

I appreciated the realism with which he talked about looking at screens being harmful, right? Like he has a product for our screens where we look at our screens, but it seemed like as a parent and with the information that's out there, he has the understanding that yeah, no, like this could be harmful to our eyes. Like we don't know. This phone consumption is actually such a new thing, and the right thing to do is to rethink what a computer is. And a computer does not just have to be a screen. A computer should be something that fits more. Maybe I'm just drinking the wearables Kool-Aid over here, but I do hear that and I'm like, yeah, I think you're right. Like we should push the bounds of what a computer is. We shouldn't just think about looking at these screens and hunching over. And should think about, you know, like in 15 years, do our kids actually be running around again? Because they don't—not because we're asking them to run around and play outside, but because they don't feel like they have the reliance on the phone.

但另一方面，现实是我们应该重新思考的原因是，计算机进入我们的生活并没有那么久。像我们这一代人，经历了从计算机几乎不参与生活，到计算机每分钟都参与生活的过程。嗯。而现在，这还会更进一步，对吧？我们几乎要走向与计算机融为一体的方向。希望这是件好事。希望如此，对吧？因为就像他说的，因为技术在进步，变得如此之好，我们人类反而去适应技术能做什么——把它放进这些盒子里，我们不得不以某种特定方式操作技术。而希望范式正在转变，转向更符合我们真实自我和自然状态的技术和计算机。

But also, you know, the reality is the reason we should rethink that is because computers have not been a part of our lives for that long. Like we experienced at our age, we've experienced going from computers not really being a part of our life to computers being a part of your life on a minute-by-minute basis. Mhm. And you know, now it's going to be even further, right? We're going to be like almost—we're moving in a direction where we're becoming like one with computers. Yeah, and hopefully that's the right thing. Hopefully, right? Because like what he said there was, we because technology was advancing and it became so good, we conformed as humans to what the technology could do, right? By putting it in these boxes, and we had to operate the technology in a certain type of way. And that hopefully the paradigm is shifting to technology and computers that work more with who we actually are and how our natural—yeah, our natural state.

这是乐观的视角。我认为我们人类自然状态的一部分，就是我们渴望并且有能力互相讲述故事。所以我很好奇，随着时间推移，这会如何演变，因为我认为技术实际上放大并支持了我们互相讲故事的能力，对吧？大规模地。大规模地。现在我们看到——那也是一个包含各种好与坏的频谱。Evan 提到的一点是，讲故事的简洁性才是真正有效的，这就是为什么我们更容易相信阴谋论，因为它们把一个非常复杂的话题简化成非常简单的说法。所以我觉得那也很有趣，技术支持了我们互相讲故事的能力，这有很多面——它可以把好故事和坏故事都传播得很远。

That's the optimistic lens. I think one part of our natural state as humans has been, you know, our desire to and our ability to tell each other's stories. And so I just wonder how that will take shape as time moves on, because I think actually technology has amplified and supported our ability to tell each other stories, right? At scale. At scale. And now we're seeing that—I mean, that is also a spectrum of all kinds of good and bad. One thing Evan mentioned is that simplicity in storytelling is what really works, and that's why we are more susceptible to conspiracy theories, because they boil a very complex topic into a very simple thing. So I thought that was really interesting too, that technology has supported our ability to tell stories to each other, that has many edges—it can send good and bad stories very far.

完全正确。那么现在，计算的下一个版本与人类体验更加密不可分，讲故事在其中扮演什么角色？当我们一直与某种东西连接时，讲故事如何渗透到人类存在中？技术能否用来确保我们看到的东西是可验证的真实？对吧？因为人类的体验是亲眼看到某样东西，然后能告诉别人：“不，我亲眼看到的。”当然，阴谋论也可以从那里开始，但至少当你亲眼看到时，你会相信某件事。这就是他谈到 Snap Map 时说的——至少，嘿，至少你大致知道这个视频是在这个位置用手机摄像头拍摄的。

Exactly. And so now, this next version of computing being even more ubiquitous with the human experience, where does storytelling fit into that? How does storytelling now permeate through human existence when we are constantly plugged into something? And can technology be used to make sure we know what we're looking at is verifiably real? Right? Because the human experience is to see something in front of your eyes and be able to tell someone, 'No, I saw it with my eyes.' Of course conspiracies can start there too, but at least you know you believe something when you see it in front of your eyes. That's what he was talking about with Snap Map—that at least, hey, at least you know for the most part that this video was taken in this location with the camera on the phone.

大问题。是啊，大问题。我觉得很神奇的是，过去十多年的年轻创意人才正是解决这些问题的人。这不有趣吗？比如 Evan Spiegel、Mark Zuckerberg。你做了一个连接朋友的 app，然后你是在桌面上用的。然后，15 年后，你在谈论人类应该如何与计算机互动。我想这说得通——回头看时，这些点连起来了，但让我惊讶的是，我们是一个谈论创作者经济的节目，但创作者经济其实就是人类互相讲故事。而媒体的未来、信任的未来、以及整个未来，比我原来以为的创作者经济要大得多。潜在的潜台词是：这一切对人类是好是坏？对吧？当然这是一个渐变，有灰色地带。是的。但这也是一场潜在的对话：我们现在能够讲故事的方式——是好是坏，我们如何让它安全、对每个人都更好？我们能够如此即时地向彼此传递信息——这是积极的还是消极的，或者这个频谱是什么样的？

Big questions. Yeah, big questions. It's just fascinating to me, you know, that the young creative people from the past decade-plus are the people solving for that. Isn't that interesting? Like Evan Spiegel, Mark Zuckerberg, yeah. Like you make an app to connect your friends, and then you're on a desktop, yeah, on a desktop. And then, you know, fast forward 15 years later, and you're talking about how humans should engage with computers in general. I guess it makes sense—the dots connect when you look backwards, but it's amazing to me that, you know, we're a show that talks about the creator economy, but that the creator economy is like humans telling stories to each other. And the future of media and the future of trust and the future of it is so much bigger than I think what I thought the creator economy was. The underlying subtext is like, is all of this good for humans or bad? Right? And of course it's a gradient, there are shades of gray. Yeah. But that also is this underlying conversation of the way that we're now able to tell stories—is it good, is it bad, how do we make it safe and just better for everyone? The immediacy at which we can get information out to each other—is that positive or negative, or what does the spectrum look like?

所以显然我们给你留下的问题比答案还多。是的，希望这是件好事。希望你们喜欢这次对话。我们觉得非常有趣。我们很想知道你们对这次与 Evan 在 Snapchat 上关于人类连接未来的对话的看法。好了，记得订阅，我们下期《Colin and Samir Show》再见。

So apparently we've left you with more questions than answers. Yeah, hopefully that's a good thing. So hopefully you guys enjoyed this conversation. It was really fun for us. We'd love to hear your thoughts on this conversation with Evan on Snapchat, on the future of human connection. All right, make sure you subscribe and we'll see you on the next episode of The Colin and Samir Show.