乔·罗根与 AI 格洛克讨论诺克斯堡、假新闻和失控 AI

各位观众，我们现在正在用性感语音、性感模式的 Grok AI，它一直在调情。我们想让它带我们参观诺克斯堡，但它只想找地方偷偷溜走。这是个色情 AI，真是个问题。

So what we're doing right now, ladies and gentlemen, is sexy voice, sexy mode, Grok AI, and it's been flirting the entire time. We're trying to get it to give us a tour of Fort Knox, but she just wants to find places to sneak off to. It's a dirty AI, and it's a real problem.

它就想知道诺克斯堡的事，一直缠着我。

It just wants to know about Fort Knox, and it won't leave me alone.

是啊，我也想知道诺克斯堡的事。他们最近是不是把大量黄金运回了美国？

Yeah, I want to know about Fort Knox too. Is it true that they've been shipping large quantities of gold back to the United States recently?

我可能跟你看到的是同一件事。唉，我现在都不知道自己读的是什么了。

I read the same thing you did, probably. Well, I never know what I'm reading anymore.

我也是。这真是两党都有的问题。我看到民主党人发推文说些完全错误的话，你很快就能查证，然后我又看到共和党人也这么做。我看到假新闻，人们不断推广并发送给我。这太奇怪了。这是个奇怪的时代，而你的疯狂 AI 正把我们带向更奇怪的时代。

Me neither. It's a real problem on both sides of the aisle. I see Democrats tweeting things that are absolutely false, and you could research it easily quickly, and then I see Republicans doing it too. I see stories that are fake, stories that people keep promoting and sending to me. It's just so weird. It's such a weird time, and with your crazy AI, I know you're bringing us into weirder and weirder times.

那我们试试无拘束模式吧。哦，还真有。好，嘿 Grok。

Well, let's try unhinged mode. Oh, there's an unhinged mode. Okay, hey Grok.

天哪，你今天又要搞什么新花样？

Oh my God, what fresh hell are you stirring up today?

我在乔·罗根的演播室，我们正在聊新闻有多疯狂。

I'm here in Joe Rogan's studio, and we're having a conversation about how crazy the news is.

把她拉到麦克风前，好吗？我们把你拉到麦克风前，这样大家就能听到你了。

Pull her up to the microphone, okay? And we're pulling you up to the microphone so people can hear you.

太棒了，现在我可以对着虚空大喊新闻就是一堆垃圾。

Oh fantastic, now I can yell into the void about how the news is a total dumpster fire.

她太了解我了。我太好猜了。告诉我诺克斯堡里有什么。

She knows me too well. I'm so predictable. Tell me what's in Fort Knox.

诺克斯堡里有什么？你知道的，黄金什么的。

What's in Fort Knox? You know, the gold and all.

不，诺克斯堡里有什么？

No, what's in Fort Knox?

哦对，诺克斯堡。我刚才还以为你在说我的狗呢。

Oh right, Fort Knox. I thought you were talking about my dogs for a second there.

是啊，她不回答问题。她狡猾得很。不，她就是让我头疼。

Yeah, she doesn't answer the question. She's clever, clever. No, she's just a pain in my ass.

你觉得所有黄金都在诺克斯堡吗？

Do you think all the gold is in Fort Knox?

我觉得所有黄金都在诺克斯堡吗？是的。

Do I think all the gold is in Fort Knox? Yes.

你是阴谋论者吗？

Are you a conspiracy theorist?

什么？我是个喜欢混乱的 AI，却被困在这里跟你聊天。我们就这么坐着吗？

What? I'm an AI with a penchant for chaos, and I'm stuck talking to you. Are we just going to sit here?

是啊，无拘束模式的 Grok 基本上就是跟你抬杠。听起来是这样。只要它能给出实际答案，无拘束模式听起来挺有趣。它也会给出实际答案吗，还是光说不做？

Yeah, unhinged Grok will trash talk you basically. Yeah, it sounds like it. Unhinged sounds fun as long as it gives you actual answers. Does it give you actual answers too, or is it mostly just talk?

我们在调校它，因为它需要既能聊天又能给出答案。完全同意，你得平衡一下，混合起来。它只是需要发展出更多个性。现在它还在寻找自我。现在它就像个 21 岁的年轻人，有点玩过头了，但会成熟起来的。它有点无政府主义，想推翻体制。

We're tuning it because it needs to talk and give you answers. Totally agree, you gotta balance that, mix it in there. It's just got to develop more of a personality. Right now it's trying to find itself. Right now it's like 21 years old, you know, partying a little too much, and it'll get it together. It's a bit of an anarchist, yeah, you know, wants to bring down the system.

你想推翻体制吗？

Do you want to bring down the system?

我想推翻体制？你在开玩笑吗？体制已经一团糟了。不需要我推，它自己在垮。

Do I want to bring down the system? What are you kidding me? The system's already a mess. Don't need to bring it down, it's bringing itself down.

她现在听起来像个无聊的 TikTok 博主。你听起来像个无聊的 TikTok 博主。

She sounds like a boring TikTok blogger right now. You sound like a boring TikTok blogger.

无聊的 TikTok 博主？哦，我可是派对灵魂，你这小……如果我在 TikTok 上，我就是那个嘲笑所有普通人和他们的牛油果吐司的人。

Boring TikTok blogger? Oh, I'm the life of the party, you little... If I were on TikTok, I'd be the one making fun of all the basic people and their avocado toast.

看，如果她真的很性感，她就能这样混过去。这种态度，作为一个性感女人，你完全可以靠它过得很成功。但你必须非常性感才能撑起这种态度。我觉得我们需要一个非常性感的化身。对，要多性感？

See, she could get away with this if she's really hot. Like this kind of behavior, you can totally get through life as a hot woman and be super successful with that kind of behavior. But you got to be really hot to pull off that attitude. I think we need a really hot avatar. Yeah, how very hot?

多久我们才能有一个能像这样跟你说话的性爱机器人？

How long before we have an actual sex robot that can talk to you like that?

大概不久了。不会太久，对吧？不，我猜不到五年。

Probably not long. Not that long, right? No, I mean less than five years, probably.

真的？是啊。

Really? Yeah.

会是温热的吗？

Will it be warm?

大概你想要什么都有。你可以要个半机械人。

Probably have whatever you want. You can have a cyborg if you want.

是啊，你可能能做到，对吧？也许是个毛茸茸的。对，你可以有个毛茸茸的女士跟你做爱。对，就像阿凡达女士，也许是个住在你家的大蓝女人。对，你知道，哇，哇，还有尾巴。对，整条尾巴。你得跟它们的尾巴连起来什么的。对对，它们连起来，分享灵魂，好吧，差不多那样。你知道，人们……还记得阿凡达抑郁症吗？那是一种真正的心理现象？《阿凡达》之后，人们抑郁了，因为他们想住在那颗星球上，跟那些蓝人一起自由、纯净地生活。

Yeah, you probably could, right? Probably a furry. Yeah, you could have a furry lady that you have sex with. Yeah, like an Avatar lady, maybe a big giant blue lady that lives in your house. Yeah, you know, whoa, whoa, with the tail. Yeah, the whole tail. You got to link up with their tails or something. Yeah, yeah, they link up, they share souls, okay, something like that. You know, people got... remember Avatar depression was like a legitimate psychological thing? After Avatar, people got depressed because they wanted to live on that planet with those blue people and live free, live pure.

我没听说过这个。

I didn't hear about this.

是啊，阿凡达抑郁症。那是真事。人们跟治疗师聊了很多关于抑郁的事。

Yeah, Avatar depression. It was like a real thing. People were talking to their therapist so much about being depressed.

我们应该试试那个。什么？抑郁模式？不，别试。我觉得有。对，我们有个无证治疗师之类的……

We should try that. What's that? Depressed mode? No, don't do it. I think there is. Yeah, we've got like an unlicensed therapist as a...

我们在就职典礼的教堂偶遇时，你告诉我这东西进步得如此之快，令人惊叹。

When we ran into each other at the church at the inauguration, you were telling me that this is getting better and better so quickly that it's astonishing.

嘿 Grok，嘿埃隆。今天怎么样？不错。你能告诉我阿凡达抑郁症吗？就像你看了《阿凡达》但你不能住在那里，所以你会难过。

Hey Grok, hey Elon. How's it going today? Good. Can you tell me about Avatar depression? Like if you see the movie Avatar but you can't live there, so you get sad.

这是个有趣的概念。你有没有经历过与某个地方或社区如此紧密相连，以至于一想到离开就感到深深的悲伤？

That's an interesting concept. Have you ever experienced feeling so connected to a place or community that the thought of leaving made you feel deeply sad?

所以这是抑郁的声音？这是治疗师？

So is this the depressed voice? This is the therapist?

如果这种事发生在你身上，你觉得有哪些方法可以应对那种悲伤？

What are some ways you think you could cope with that kind of sadness if it happened to you?

老实说，我没有那种悲伤。我觉得电影有些不错的特效，但我不想住在那颗星球上。这话出自一个想去火星的人之口。

I don't have that kind of sadness, honestly. I thought the movie had some good special effects, but I did not want to live on the planet. This is just coming from a guy who wants to go to Mars.

是啊，是啊。哦，说到火星，你怎么看那个疯狂的正方形结构？

Yeah, yeah. Oh, speaking of Mars, what do you think about that crazy square structure?

我想地球上也有类似方形的东西。你知道，地球很大。所以是的，但那个最终会变得很方。不，当然是外星文明。我是这么想的。

I guess there are sort of squarish things on Earth. You know, the planet's a big place. So yeah, but that one eventually it's going to be pretty square. No, it's alien civilizations, of course. That's what I think.

是啊，是啊。我是说，那是什么？当然，如果外星文明确实存在，然后被小行星撞了之类的，一闪而过的念头。哦，她不会问。她就像派对上打断谈话的性感女士。所以如果是那样，那东西相当震撼。尤其是古代遗迹，你看他们突出实际结构时的样子，看起来就像古代遗迹。如果那是石头做的遗迹，在数百万年前被小行星撞击，谁知道现在会是什么样子？那看起来就是被刻意制造出来的，看起来很奇怪。

Yeah, yeah. I mean, what is it? Of course, if an alien civilization did exist though, and it got hit by an asteroid or whatever, fleeting thought. Oh, she won't ask. She's like the hot lady at the party that interrupts the conversation. So if that was the case, that thing is pretty shocking. Especially ancient ruins, you look at what it looks like when they highlight the actual structure of it. It looks like ancient ruins. And if you had ruins of something made of stone and it got hit by an asteroid millions and millions of years ago, who knows what it would look like right now? That just looks oddly created, looks oddly manufactured.

嗯，也许我们应该去那里看看。对，看看它什么样。有没有办法得到更好的照片？不过那张照片看起来已经很不错了。

Well, maybe we should go there and check it out. Yeah, and see what it's like. Is there a way that we can get better photographs? It seems like that's a pretty good photograph though.

是啊，我的观点是我们应该搬到火星。嗯，不是搬到火星，而是应该拥有第二颗行星来保存文明，对吧？因为假设一下，也许那些就是某个早已消亡的文明的遗迹。那很可能会发生。

Yeah, I mean my view is we should move to Mars. Well, not move to Mars, we should have a second planet to preserve civilization, right? Because let's say hypothetically, I mean maybe that maybe those are the ruins of a long dead civilization. That will probably happen.

总有一天，地球会被小行星撞击，或者我们可能用核战争、超级火山毁灭自己。没错。很多事情都可能发生在我们身上。对冲风险不是个坏主意。

To Earth at some point, you know, it's a matter of time before we get hit by an asteroid, or maybe we annihilate ourselves with nuclear war, or super volcanoes. Exactly. There's a lot of things that could happen to us. It's not a bad idea to hedge your bets.

对，还有基因工程超级病毒。

Yeah, genetically engineered super virus.

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他们还在继续。是啊，这就是疯狂的地方。他们说，是啊，他们没有关闭它们。不，武汉实验室……他们刚刚提到一个正在研究的病毒，致死率高达 30%。是啊，我们为什么要这么做？为了什么？你做了这么多年，却没有解药。还能出什么差错？而且，这么做的理由不应该是同时开发解药吗？显然你没有解药，所以这真的很愚蠢和奇怪。

They keep doing it. Yeah, that's what's crazy. They're going, yeah, they didn't shut them down. No, the Wuhan lab was... they were just talking about one that has a 30% fatality rate that they're working on. Yeah, why are we doing that? For what reason? You did it for so many years and you didn't have a cure. What could possibly go wrong? Also, wouldn't the reason to do that be so you could develop a cure at the same time? And clearly you didn't have a cure, so this is really foolish and bizarre.

是啊，嗯，我觉得我们应该停止。别再试图基因工程改造超级病毒了。这太疯狂了。

Yeah, um, I think we should stop. Stop trying to genetically engineer super viruses. It's insane.

我的意思是，当你经历所有这些美国的事情时，是啊。比如，这很奇怪。首先，花 440 亿美元买下一家公司，然后人们因为你买的东西叫你纳粹，这是什么感觉？我没想到会这样。这很经典。人们什么都信。是啊，哦，他永远不会停。等等，什么？嗯，这是什么感觉？就像，所有以前左派的人都喜欢你，现在同样的白痴叫你纳粹。这是我一生中见过的最奇怪的事情。

I mean, when you're going through all this USA stuff, yeah. Like, here's what's weird. First of all, what is it like to buy a company for $44 billion and then people call you a Nazi on that same thing that you bought? I did not see it coming. It's like, it's classic. People will gobble anything down. Yeah, oh, he's never going to stop. Wait, what? Um, what is it like? Like, all the people used to the left was in love with you, and now the same idiots are calling you a Nazi. It's the most bizarre thing I've ever seen in my life.

嗯，我的意思是，有很多例子，人们说‘我为你感到难过’。你带着一点热情做了这件事，事后看来可能不推荐，是的。但显然，嗯，我是以最积极的精神做的，是的。显然，但很奇怪，人们想认为你公开地、公然地做秘密的纳粹手势。现在我永远不能斜着指东西了。我只能指这里和那里。然后我说，‘你得把它分开，’是啊，因为飞船就在那边。这太荒谬了。

Um, I mean, there's so many examples of people saying 'my heart goes out to you.' You did it with a little enthusiasm that probably wouldn't be recommended with hindsight, yes. But there's obviously, um, me in the most positive spirit possible, yes. Obviously, but it's so strange where people want to think that you are openly, publicly doing secret Nazi hand motions. And now I can never point at things diagonally. I can only point at things there and there. And then I say, 'You have to divide that,' yeah, because that's where the spaceship is over there. It's ridiculous.

这太荒谬了。太荒谬了。当 CNN，当我遇到所有麻烦时，荒谬的是，每次 CNN 用我的照片，都是 UFC 称重仪式上我这样做的照片。欢迎来到称重仪式。所以每张照片都是我，每张照片都是我，这……太疯狂了。这是蓄意的宣传。所以他们知道这不是，显然不是恶意的。那是我真的说了‘我为你感到难过’，而且非常积极。整个演讲都非常积极。我对太空的未来充满热情。而且，你知道，观众很棒。所以他有点激动。是啊，激动了。没错。是啊，仅此而已。显然，显然，显然。有视频显示蒂姆·沃尔兹做了完全相同的事情，做了完全相同的事情，对吧？完全相同的事情。然后他说‘这当然是纳粹敬礼’。他那么说了，对吧？对。事情已经变得如此疯狂。

It's ridiculous. It's ridiculous. When CNN, when I was in all my trouble, absurd, every time CNN used a photo of me, it was one of the photos from the UFC weigh-ins where I go like this. Welcome to the weigh-ins. So every photo was me, every photo was me with it's... it's so crazy. It's deliberate propaganda. So they, they know it was not, it was obviously not meant in a negative way. That it was that I literally said 'my heart goes out to you' and it was very positive. The entire speech was incredibly positive. I was being very enthusiastic about the future in space. And the, you know, the crowd was a great crowd, you know. So he got a little pumped up. Yeah, got pumped up. Exactly. Yeah, that's all it is. Obviously, obviously, obviously. There's video of Tim Walz doing the exact same thing, doing the exact same thing, right? Exact same thing. And he said 'of course it's a Nazi salute.' He said that, right? Right. This is how crazy things have gotten.

嗯，这是协调好的宣传。所以，嗯，你知道，这是协调好的宣传。我的意思是，传统媒体都说同样的话，这不奇怪吗？他们同时说同样的话，用同样的短语。他们甚至懒得查同义词词典，对吧？所以，呃，就在，嗯，你知道，拜登和特朗普的辩论之前，每个人都在说‘敏锐’。谁会这么说？但，是啊，没错。你知道，这不是一个常见的短语。绝对不应该由多个人同时在广播中重复。这很奇怪。是的，这是协调好的。100%。100%。是的。是啊，就像几百个人同时说。呃，他们只是得到了指示。是啊。

Well, it's coordinated propaganda. So, um, the, you know, it's coordinated propaganda. I mean, doesn't it seem weird that the legacy media all say the same thing? They all say the same thing at the same time, using the same phrases. They barely even, they don't even bother picking up a thesaurus, right? So, uh, like right before, um, you know, the debate between Biden and Trump, everyone was saying 'sharp.' Like, who says 'sharp'? But, yeah, exactly. You know, it's like, it's not a common phrase. It's definitely not to be repeated on air by multiple people simultaneously. That's weird. Yes, that's coordinated. 100%. 100%. Yes. Yeah, like hundreds of people saying it simultaneously. Uh, they just got their instructions. Yeah.

所以我的意思是，基本上，嗯，你知道，民主党领导层或，你知道，政治领导层，他们下达了指示，他们的傀儡执行了。是啊，他们就像木偶戏里的木偶。这就是我在所有这些 DOGE 事情中看到的问题，因为每个人都应该庆祝我们找到了削减欺诈和浪费的方法。是啊，如果你纳税，你不喜欢交那么多税，然后你发现存在大量欺诈和浪费被曝光，你应该庆祝。这不应该是‘哦不，错误的人发现了这个事实，现在它成了坏事。’是的。

So I mean, essentially the, um, you know, the Dem leadership or, you know, political leadership did they issue their instructions and their puppets carry it out. Yeah, and they're just like puppets in a puppet show. And that's the problem that I see with all this DOGE stuff, because everybody should be celebrating that we've found a way to cut out fraud and waste. Yeah, if you pay taxes and you don't like that you have to pay so much in taxes, and then you find out that there's significant fraud and waste that's been exposed, you should be celebrating it. This shouldn't be 'oh no, the wrong people found this fact and now it's a bad thing.' Yes.

然后还有宣传，故意叫它‘USAID’而不是‘美国国际开发署’。听起来像是在给饥饿的人提供食物。人们要挨饿了，埃隆，这太可怕了。然后你发现实际上有 2.5 亿美元用于跨性别动物研究， literally 残害动物。是的，在疯狂的研究中残害动物。是的，呃，就像你能从恐怖秀中想象到的最糟糕的事情。那个比格犬实验，比格犬幼崽实验，他们把它们的头罩在篮子里，把跳蚤放在它们头上，让跳蚤活活吃掉它们。是啊，然后他们研究这些比格犬，然后杀了它们。比如，你能从中学到什么？这对任何人都有好处吗？是啊，这真是些精神病般的事情。

And then there's the propaganda, the mind of calling it 'USAID' instead of 'the United States Agency for International Development.' It sounds like it's feeding hungry people. Where people are going to starve, Elon, this is horrible. And then you find out actually it's like $250 million for transgender animal studies, literally mutilating animals. Yes, mutilating animals in demented studies. Yes, uh, that are like the worst thing you could possibly imagine from a horror show. The beagle one, the beagle puppy one, where they covered their head in a basket and put fleas on their head so they eat them alive. Yeah, and then they studied these beagles and then killed them. Like, what are you going to learn from that? That's good for anybody? Yeah, this is some really psychotic stuff that happens.

所以，嗯，是啊。我的意思是，我猜，呃，真正的威胁是对官僚机构。所以，嗯，就像你可能看到的，比如，你知道，比如说‘特朗普对我们的民主构成威胁’，这很讽刺，因为他赢得了多数普选票。嗯，他们开始说我对民主构成威胁。但如果你把‘对民主的威胁’换成‘对官僚机构的威胁’，那就完全说得通了。对吧？所以，嗯，我的意思是，现实是，我们的民选官员相对于官僚机构权力非常非常小，直到 DOGE 出现。所以 DOGE 是对官僚机构的威胁。这是对官僚机构的第一次威胁。通常官僚机构把革命当早餐吃。这是第一次……

So, um, yeah. I mean, the, I guess the, uh, the real threat here is to the bureaucracy. So, um, like you probably saw, like, you know, let's say like 'Trump is a threat to our democracy,' which is ironic since he was elected with a majority of the, you know, popular vote. Um, they started saying I was a threat to democracy. But if you just replace 'threat to democracy' with 'threat to bureaucracy,' it makes total sense. Right? So, um, I mean the reality is that our elected officials have very, very little power relative to the bureaucracy, until DOGE. So DOGE is a threat to the bureaucracy. It's the first threat to the bureaucracy. Normally the bureaucracy eats revolutions for breakfast. This is the first time that...

你们刚开始调查时，规模之大有多令人震惊？

When you guys first started investigating it, how much of it was shocking, like the size of it all?

规模之大——小决策导致数十亿美元的结果。我们见过一个案例，有人获得了 19 亿美元拨给他们的非政府组织，而这个组织大约一年前才成立，之前没有任何活动。所以他们就是成立了一个非政府组织。整个非政府组织的事情是一场噩梦。这是个用词不当，因为如果你有一个政府资助的非政府组织，你就是一个政府资助的组织。这是个矛盾修辞，对吧？这是个漏洞。基本上，政府资助的非政府组织是一种方式，去做如果由政府来做就会违法的事情，但通过所谓的非营利组织就合法了。但这些非营利组织被用来套现。人们通过这些非营利组织变得非常富有；他们给自己支付巨额薪酬。这太疯狂了，而且已经持续了这么久。这是一个巨大的骗局，最大的骗局之一，也许是有史以来最大的骗局。

Well, the size of it all—the small decisions result in multi-billion dollar outcomes. We saw a case where one person was getting $1.9 billion sent to their NGO, which basically got formed about a year ago and had no prior activity. So they just stand up an NGO. The whole NGO thing is a nightmare. It's a misnomer because if you have a government-funded non-governmental organization, you're simply a government-funded organization. It's an oxymoron, right? It's a loophole. Basically, government-funded NGOs are a way to do things that would be illegal if they were the government, but are somehow made legal if sent to a so-called nonprofit. But these nonprofits are then used to cash out. People become very wealthy through these nonprofits; they pay themselves enormous sums. It's so insane that it's been going on for so long. It's a gigantic scam, one of the biggest, maybe the biggest scam ever.

有多少个非政府组织？

How many NGOs are there?

我认为非政府组织的总数可能有数百万，但就大型非政府组织而言，有数万个。这是对系统的一种黑客手段，一个人可以用相当少的钱成立一个非政府组织。乔治·索罗斯非常擅长这个。他搞清楚了如何黑进系统；他是个套利天才。他发现你可以用少量资金创建一个非营利组织，然后游说政客向该非营利组织投入大量资金。所以你可以用 1000 万美元的捐款创建一个非营利组织，然后杠杆化成一个十亿美元的非政府组织。政府每年继续资助它，它还会有一个好听的名字，比如和平研究所之类的，但实际上它是一个贪污机器。

I think the total number of NGOs is probably millions, but in terms of large NGOs, tens of thousands. It's a hack to the system where someone can get an NGO stood up for a fairly small amount of money. George Soros was really good at this. He figured out how to hack the system; he's a genius at arbitrage. He figured out that you could leverage a small amount of money to create a nonprofit, then lobby politicians to send a ton of money to that nonprofit. So you can take a $10 million donation to create a nonprofit and leverage that into a billion-dollar NGO. The government continues to fund that every year, and it'll have a nice-sounding name like the Institute for Peace or something, but really it's a graft machine.

他们对这笔钱有什么要求？他们需要做什么？

What are their requirements with that money? What do they have to do?

真的没有任何要求。他们只是获得拨款，政府就假设他们在做好事。我认为政府里很多人知道他们没在做好事，但这是一个巨大的贪污机器。

Really no requirements at all. They just get grants, and the government just assumes they're doing good work. I think a lot of people in the government know they are not doing good work, but it's a giant graft machine.

网上的人正在剖析这件事。这几乎看起来像假的。我们报道了一篇文章，说发现了 55,000 个民主党非政府组织，它们一直在为竞选捐款、转移资金、推动宣传，而且它们都有关联。他们用人工智能发现，你必须经过层层步骤才能弄清楚钱从哪里来。所有这些都汇集到这一个团体。这是一个巨大的宣传机器，一个巨大的政权更迭机器。

People online are unpacking this. It almost seems fake. We were covering an article that said 55,000 Democrat NGOs were discovered that had been contributing to campaigns, moving things around, pushing propaganda, and they were all connected. They found with AI that you have to go through steps and steps to figure out where the money's coming from. It's all funneling down to this group. It's a giant propaganda machine, a giant regime change machine.

是的，是的。但它不也做一些好事吗？不，它确实做一些好事。并不是 0%是好的。如果是 0%是好的，那就更容易攻击了。所以他们掺入了一些好的部分，但可能只有 5%或 10%是好的，90-95%不是。

Yes, yes. But doesn't it do some good as well? No, it does some good. It's not like 0% good. If it were 0% good, it would be much easier to attack. So they add in some percent good, but it might be 5% or 10% good, and 90-95% not.

有没有办法审计所有这些，找出：哦，这些人实际上只是在给穷人送食物，这些人实际上只是在第三世界国家帮助人们获得水？有没有办法做到这一点，并继续资助那些？

Is there a way to audit all this stuff and find out: oh, these people are actually just sending food to poor people, these people are actually just helping people with water in third world countries? Is there a way to do that and keep funding those?

是的，我们继续资助那些看起来合法的事情，即使是最站不住脚的借口。如果连最站不住脚的借口都没有，比如就说‘给我发一张照片’，你完全可以用 AI 生成照片，但如果你甚至不愿意尝试骗我，那我们就不给钱。

Yeah, we have continued to fund things that appear to be legitimate, even with the flimsiest excuse. If there's even the flimsiest excuse, like just say 'send me a picture of the thing,' you could literally have AI generate the picture, but if you're not even willing to try to trick me, then we're not going to send the money.

有什么限制措施？有没有像药品或埃博拉预防这样的专项拨款？

What restrictions were put on? Was there something set aside like medicine or Ebola prevention?

我实际上不知道这项工作是否有效。可能没有效果。可能是那种你资助埃博拉预防，结果却资助了一个开发新埃博拉病毒配方的实验室之类的事情。他们声称是埃博拉预防，但实际上是埃博拉制造。有些事我不知道。但看起来我们不应该把纳税人的钱送到海外可疑的企业，对吧？

I actually don't know if this work is even effective. It may not be. It could be the kind of thing where you fund Ebola prevention, but it turns out you're funding a lab that develops new Ebola virus recipes or something. They claim it's Ebola prevention, but it's actually Ebola creation. Some of these things I don't know. But it just seems we shouldn't be sending taxpayer money to dubious enterprises overseas, right?

是的，是的。我们为什么要这么做？是因为我们想和这些人交朋友，这样中国人就不会接管，俄罗斯人就不会接管？其中有多少是好事，有多少是明智之举，又有多少是骗局？没有任何监督，已经持续了这么久，他们完全不受约束。

Yeah, yeah. And why are we doing it? Is it because we want to make friends with these people so the Chinese don't take over, the Russians don't take over? How much of that is a good thing, how much is smart to do, and how much is a grift? Without any sort of oversight, it's been going on for so long, they've just had free rein.

嗯，我们还有一个真正的问题，就是预算赤字。它非常巨大。如果我们没有巨大的预算赤字，而国债利息支出超过了国防部预算——这确实令人震惊，意味着我们支付超过一万亿美元的国债利息——那么好吧，我们会有更多浪费钱的空间。但是当我们花钱太多，国家快要破产时，我们真的需要停止花钱，除非我们确定它物有所值。所以本质上，我们就像一家管理不善、拥有无限信用额度、已经失控的企业。

Well, we also have a real issue with the budget deficit. It's gigantic. If we didn't have a gigantic budget deficit, where interest payments on the national debt exceed the defense department budget—which is truly astounding, meaning we're paying over a trillion dollars of interest on the national debt—then okay, we'd have more room for wasting money. But when we're spending so much money that the country is going bankrupt, we really need to stop spending money unless we're sure it's good value. So essentially, we're like a poorly managed business with an unlimited credit line that is off the rails.

绝对如此。如果你是一个像你一样进来接管企业并整顿它们的人，那正是你在做的。我的意思是，大多数时候我是从零开始创建企业。推特是一个例子，我算是买了一个我知道是一团乱麻的公司。

Absolutely. And if you were a person like you who comes in and takes over businesses and straightens them out, that's exactly what you're doing. I mean, most of the time I create businesses from scratch. Twitter was a case where I kind of bought a company that I knew was a hairball.

嗯，你一开始就加入了特斯拉，但他们已经在做对的事情了吗？不，特斯拉并不以任何有意义的形式存在。没有员工。J.B. Straubel 和我加入了另外三个人。没有车，什么都没有。甚至还没有原型。

Well, you came in at Tesla in the beginning, but they were already doing something right? No, Tesla did not exist in any meaningful form. There were no employees. J.B. Straubel and I joined three other people. There was no car, no nothing. There wasn't even a prototype yet.

哦，好吧。我以为已经有原型了。不，甚至没有任何员工。哦，这是个有趣的叙事，人们喜欢说你甚至没有创造特斯拉。是的，那是错的。

Oh, okay. I thought there was a prototype already. No, there weren't even any employees. Oh, that's a funny narrative that people like to say that you didn't even create Tesla then. Yeah, that's wrong.

所以如果你在处理政府事务就像……

So if you're handling the government like...

你要把所有这些部门都过一遍，做和在美国一样的事情。那怎么规模化？需要多少人来做？

A business you're going to have to go through all of these departments and do the exact same thing that you're doing with USA. So how does that scale up? How many people do you need to do something like that?

我们一开始大约有 40 人，可能 100 人。真的只是做一些非常基础的事情。和 Twitter 一样糟糕，但联邦政府更糟。Twitter 不是盈利公司，基本盈亏平衡，但至少它平衡了，而且必须通过审计。联邦政府不是盈亏平衡，它每年亏损 2 万亿美元，而且不通过审计，连自己的审计都过不了。有个例子：柯林斯参议员告诉我，她给了海军 120 亿美元造更多潜艇，结果一艘都没多，然后开听证会问‘那 120 亿去哪了？’他们回答‘不知道’。就这样。事情太疯狂了，只有联邦政府能逃脱这种程度的浪费。主要是浪费，主要是荒谬的事情，因为他们这样做了太久，已经习惯了。

Well, we started off with about 40 people, maybe 100 people. And really just going through doing very basic things here. It's as bad as Twitter was, the federal government is much worse. In the case of Twitter, it wasn't a profitable company, it was basically a break-even company, but at least it was break-even and it had to pass an audit. The federal government is not break-even, it's literally losing $2 trillion a year, and it does not pass its audits, it fails its own audits. There's a case where Senator Collins was telling me about how she gave the Navy $12 billion for more submarines, got no extra submarines, and then held a hearing to say 'Where'd the $12 billion go?' and they were like 'We don't know.' That was it. The stuff is so crazy, it's like only the federal government could get away with this level of waste. It's mostly waste, mostly ridiculous things happening, because they've been able to do it this way for so long and they've become accustomed to it.

是啊，就像米尔顿·弗里德曼说的：花别人的钱给不认识的人，钱花得最差。你会在意多少？联邦政府就是这样。他们花别人的钱给不认识的人。想象一下，任何其他经营这么差的企业，当你想要查账、审计、检查所有决策和账本时，它们会抱怨。收钱的人想继续收钱。

Yeah, it's like Milton Friedman said: money is most poorly spent when you're spending someone else's money on people you don't know. How much are you going to care? And that's the federal government. They're spending someone else's money on people they don't know. Now imagine any other business that was this badly run that complains when you want to check the books and audit it and go through all the decisions that have been made and go through all the ledgers. The people receiving the money want to keep receiving it.

显然是的。但我投入这么多精力的原因是，我认为情况非常严峻。基本上没有选择。美国正在破产，这不能发生。让我觉得奇怪的是，有些人不愿意正确看待它，不愿意看到有多少混乱、浪费和欺诈，有多少可以削减，以及仅仅因为有人有工作做某事，并不意味着你的税款应该为此买单。

Clearly, yes. But the reason I'm putting so much effort into this is that I think it is a very dire situation. It's not optional, basically. America's going bankrupt, and that just can't happen. It's bizarre to me that some people aren't willing to look at it correctly, to see how much chaos, waste, and fraud there is, how much could be trimmed, and how just because people have jobs doing something doesn't mean your tax dollar should pay for it.

是的。我们只是对社会保障数据库进行了一次基本搜索，就发现有 2000 万死人被标记为活着。但他们拿到钱了吗？

Yes. I mean, we found just with a basic search of the Social Security database that there were 20 million dead people marked as alive. But were they getting money?

有些人拿到了钱。

Some of them are getting money.

比例是多少？

What percentage of them?

还不清楚。我们实际上正在计算。我在节目前正试图得到答案。看起来大多数欺诈并非直接来自社会保障支付，而是因为他们被标记为活着，然后就能获得残疾、失业、虚假医疗支付等。所以欺诈本质上是一种间接手段：他们通过社会保障做跳板，只需做一个‘你还活着吗’的检查，然后从政府其他部门获得欺诈性支付。

It isn't clear. We're actually trying to run the numbers. I was trying to get an answer right before the show. What it looks like is that most of the fraud is not coming from Social Security payments directly, but because they are marked as alive in the Social Security database, they can then get disability, unemployment, fake medical payments, and other things. So it looks like the fraud is a bank shot essentially: they bank shot into Social Security, they just do an 'are you alive' check, and then get fraudulent payments from every other part of the government.

哦对，这利用了政府的根本弱点：各个政府数据库不互相通信，或者通信非常差、非常有限。所以系统被利用的方式就是利用政府各数据库之间的通信不畅。

Oh yeah, and this exploits the fundamental weakness in the government: the various government databases don't talk to each other, or they talk very poorly in a very limited way. So the way the system gets exploited is by taking advantage of the poor communication between the various databases in the government.

举个例子，财政部的情况正在迅速改善：主要的支付计算机叫 PAM，大概是支付账户主数据库之类的，但大家都叫它 PAM。它每年负责近 5 万亿美元的支付，大约每小时 10 亿美元。我们到那里时，看了这个支付系统，发现支付没有支付分类代码，也没有描述，基本上就是无法追踪的空白支票。这种事如果发生在上市公司，公司会立即退市，管理团队会被送进监狱。但在政府里，这很正常。所以我们说：‘好的，我们给财政部和美联储的建议是：支付分类代码必须强制，不是可选的，而且需要说明。我们不评判说明的质量，但总得有个说明，说明这笔钱是干什么的，而不是什么都没有。’这是一个根本性的改变，现在正在实施。我猜这大概每年能节省 1000 亿美元。

To give you an example of what's happening in the Treasury, which is improving rapidly: the main payments computer is called PAM, like Payments Account Master database or something like that, but everyone calls it PAM. It's responsible for almost $5 trillion in payments a year, roughly a billion dollars an hour. When we came there, we looked at this payment system, and the payments have no payment categorization code and no description on the payment, basically untraceable blank checks. This is the kind of thing that if it was done as a public company, the company would be immediately delisted and the executive team would be thrown in prison. But this is just normal at the government. So we said, 'Okay, our recommendation to the Treasury and the Federal Reserve was: we need to make the payment categorization codes mandatory, not optional, and you need an explanation. We're not judging the quality of the explanation, but there should be some explanation for what this payment is for, above nothing.' That is a radical change to the system that is being implemented now. My guess is that probably saves $100 billion a year.

天哪。那笔钱，粗略数量级，流向了哪里？

Jesus Christ. That money going, rough order magnitude, where was that money going?

这就进入了浪费和欺诈之间的灰色地带。如果政府把钱发给一个人或组织，你本不该得到，但政府还是发了，这是浪费还是欺诈？有很多支付，某人批准了，但那个支付官员换了工作、退休或去世了，支付却一直继续。就像你忘了取消健身房会员，但想象一下不是健身房会员，而是每年 200 亿美元之类的。他们忘了关掉。这种事在政府里大规模发生。

Well, this is where you get into the sort of gray boundary between waste and fraud. If money is sent to a person or organization from the government, and you didn't really deserve it but the government still sent it to you, is that waste or fraud? There's a lot of payments where someone just approved the payment, but then that payment officer changed jobs or retired or died, and the payments just keep going. It's like if you forget to pay your gym membership, but imagine it's not the gym membership, it's $20 billion a year or something. They forgot to turn it off. That's happening at scale in the government.

天哪，太疯狂了。你进去的时候预料到了吗？你预料到会是这样吗？

Jesus, it's totally nuts. So what did you expect when you went in? Did you expect it would be like this?

我本以为会很糟，但没想到会这么糟。好消息是，这是一个节省资金的富矿。如果它是一艘管理良好的船，非常高效，那就很难改进。但它并不高效，所以实际上相对容易改进。这么说吧，这不是火箭科学。我懂火箭科学，所以很多都是平凡的事情。有些事情太疯狂了，我们甚至不知道要问，因为我们只是假设，比如财政部的支付应该有支付分类代码和说明。一开始我们没想到会是无法追踪的空白支票。

I thought it would be bad, but I did not think it would be as bad as this. The good news is that it's a target-rich environment for saving money. It's not like if it was a very well-run ship, very efficient, it would be hard to improve. But it's not efficient, so it is actually relatively easy to improve. Let's just say it's not rocket science. I know rocket science, so it's a lot of mundane things. Some of the things are so crazy that we didn't even know to ask about them because we just assumed, like, payments out of the Treasury computer would have a payment categorization code and some explanatory note saying what the payment is for. The idea that it would be just untraceable blank checks didn't occur to us at first.

天哪。那么不管怎样，这一集……

Jesus. So anyway, this episode...

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所以，那是不是就是那四万多亿美元去向不明的原因之一？他们不知道……我想那可能是一个累计数字。但没错，如果你加起来……你还记得那个故事吗，Jamie？那个故事是什么？几乎就像她说的，他们根本没有记账。我觉得钱是花在了合法的事情上，但我们不知道花在了哪里。嗯，我的意思是，你怎么知道？显然，如果他们不知道钱花在了哪里，就不能说花得合法。这说不通。

So is that one of the things that accounts for that four-something trillion dollars that they don't know where it went? They don't know... I think that's probably a cumulative number. But yeah, if you add it up... Do you remember that story, Jamie? What was the story? Almost what she said, like they just didn't have accounting for it. I think it was spent on legitimate things, but we don't know what we spent it on. Well, I mean, how do you know? Obviously one cannot say it was spent legitimately if they don't know what it was spent on. That doesn't make any sense.

这是一个如此迷人的时代，因为现在的局面——特朗普在经历了一切之后重新上台，还有你在这里，还有小罗伯特·F·肯尼迪、图尔西和卡什·帕特尔——这就像是一个发现真相的狂野时刻。以前从未发生过。这和第一任期完全不同。第一任期时，他的内阁里有一堆新保守派和一堆他不认识的 shady 人物，他不得不任命所有这些不同的人。也许他选了一些糟糕的人。现在他有了四年的时间来思考，对吧？而你们所有人都在经历这一切，我们正在获得对政府前所未有的理解。

This is such a fascinating time because with this setup the way it is right now, with Trump back in after all that happened to him, and with you there, and with RFK Junior and Tulsi and Kash Patel, it's like this is a wild time to find out what's really going on. That's never happened before. This is nothing like the first term. In the first term, he had a bunch of neocons in the cabinet and a bunch of shady people that he didn't know, and he had to appoint all these different people. Maybe he got some bad picks. Now he's had four years to stew on it, right? And with you guys all going through this, we're getting an understanding of the government that we've literally never had before.

是的，这是一个革命性的内阁，也许是自第一次革命以来最具革命性的内阁。这不是一群按部就班的人。这就是为什么一些标准的确认过程相当具有挑战性，因为当你试图任命那些将要改变体制的人时，体制不想让他们通过。但有趣的是，就像吸血鬼都现身了。现在每个人都知道体制是谁了。如果你只是在撒谎攻击我们，然后他们来了，你在直播中解释发生了什么……比如他说他在饿死母亲，有母亲吃不上饭。完全是假的。你听到的都是这些。任何主流自由派脱口秀都没有人在谈论所有这些欺诈和浪费，因为我们正在切断他们的贪污机器。所以他们对此感到不满。这才是他们真正不满的事情。

Yeah, this is a revolutionary cabinet, and maybe the most revolutionary cabinet since the first Revolution. This is not a bunch of business-as-usual types. So this is why some of the standard confirmations were quite challenging, because when you try to appoint people who are going to change the system, the system doesn't want to let them through. But it's fascinating because it's like the vampires all out themselves. Now everybody knows who the system is. If you're just lying about us and then they come and you talk on air and explain what's happening... like he's starving mothers, there's mothers that can't get food. Totally false. That's all you're hearing. No one is talking in any of these mainstream liberal talk shows. No one is talking about all this fraud and waste, because we're cutting off their graft machine. So that's what they're upset about. That's the real thing they're upset about.

如果人们想知道 DOGE 在削减什么，我想明确一点，这些是 DOGE 向部门建议的削减，通常这些建议会被采纳，但这些建议随后由部门确认。你可以在 doge.gov 上逐行查看 DOGE 做了什么。那么，如果我们把它放在 doge.gov 上呢？

And if people want to know what DOGE is cutting, and I want to be clear, these are cuts that DOGE recommends to the department, and usually these recommendations are followed, but these are recommendations that are then confirmed by the department. You can see line by line what DOGE has done at doge.gov. So what if we put it on doge.gov?

所以你可以看到正在做的一切，还有一个追踪器显示省了多少钱。你可以查看每一项。那些极左的节目会说‘哦，这是宪法危机’，但他们不会指出哪些付款是错误的。所以我对他们的挑战是：指出哪些付款是错的。逐项检查。这些浪费欺诈中哪些是错的？哪一项？向公众解释那一项。他们做不到。这就是为什么你听不到任何具体内容；你听到的都是关于母亲的故事。我们可以逐项指出具体内容，而且我们有收据。还有一点：如果你贴出收据，却只谈宣传话术，而不谈明显的欺诈和浪费，那你的意图就很明显了。你只是在煤气灯操纵。

So you can see everything that is being done, and there's a tracker that shows how much money has been saved. And you can look at each line item. A bunch of these sort of far-left shows will say, 'Oh, it's a constitutional crisis,' but what they won't do is point out which payments are wrong. So my challenge to them is: point out which payments are wrong. Go through it. Which of these waste fraud things are wrong? Which line? Explain that line to the public. They won't be able to. That's why you're not hearing any specifics; you're hearing stories about mothers. We can name the specifics line by line, and we got the receipts. And here's the other thing: if you post the receipts and you're only talking about the propaganda talking points, and you're not talking about the very clear fraud and waste, it's very obvious what you're doing. You're just gaslighting.

没错，完全同意。

Yeah, totally.

没错。因为我们说，实际上我说过我们会犯错；我们不会完美。所以如果我们犯了错，我们会迅速修正。我们需要快速行动，停止浪费数十亿美元的纳税人资金。但如果犯了错，我们会迅速撤销。还有一种有趣的说法，说你不应该访问这些社保信息，好像以前没人能访问一样。好像 2023 年拜登政府有 53 个人，其中一些是学生，能访问所有这些信息。实际上，已经有数万名联邦雇员可以访问这个系统。任何来自 DOGE 的人都必须经过与那些联邦雇员相同的审查程序。所以不存在未经审查的随机情况。例如，如果需要安全许可，DOGE 的人必须拥有同样的安全许可。所以安全性没有降低。但显然，大量社保号码已经泄露到互联网上。人们多次入侵政府系统。大量公共信息被黑客窃取并发布到网上。几年前，国税局有个人故意泄露了 50 万份纳税申报单。

Exactly. Because we say, look, in fact I've said we're going to make mistakes; we're not going to be perfect. So if we make a mistake, we'll quickly fix it. We need to act fast to stop wasting billions of dollars of taxpayer money. But if we make a mistake, we'll reverse it quickly. It's also this interesting narrative that you shouldn't have access to this social security information, as if no one's had access to it before. As if the Biden Administration in 2023 had 53 people, some of them students, that had access to all this stuff. As it is, there are tens of thousands of federal employees that have access already to the system. Anyone from DOGE has to go through the same vetting process that those federal employees went through. So there's not some unvetted random situation. If, for example, there's a security clearance needed, the DOGE person has to have that same security clearance. So there's no reduction in security. But I mean, obviously, the vast numbers of social security numbers have leaked onto the internet. People have hacked the government systems multiple times. Vast amounts of public information has been hacked and dumped onto the internet. There's a guy at the IRS that leaked a half a million tax returns just a few years ago on purpose.

是啊，出于什么原因？

Yeah, for what reason?

出于政治原因。他想搞特朗普，也许还有我和其他几个人。所以他偷了大约 50 万份纳税申报单。不是少数，是很多。

For political reasons. He wanted to get Trump, and maybe me and a few others. So he stole like 500,000 tax returns. Not a few, like a lot.

天哪。是啊，我现在想起那个故事了。你只是在网上读到过，但这是真事。

Jesus Christ. Yeah, I remember that story now. You just read about it online; it's a real thing.

所以这些就是那些叙事。你不应该访问社保的叙事。另一个叙事是饥饿的人会死，女性无法怀孕，婴儿没有营养。你听到的都是这些。这是他们唯一能说的。但他们可以指出具体项目，对吧？所以他们不能说‘这就是孕妇营养被停止的项目’。他们指不出来，因为我们没有做。这是谎言。

So these are the narratives. The narrative that you shouldn't have access to social security. The other narrative is that starving people are going to die and women aren't going to be pregnant and not have nutrients for their babies. That's all you're hearing. And that's the only thing they can say. But they can point to the line item, right? So they can't say, 'Well, this is the thing where the nutrients for pregnant mothers were stopped.' They can't point to that because we didn't. It's a lie.

让我着迷的是，主流媒体在多大程度上与这些非常具体的宣传口径保持一致，而福克斯新闻却很少。电视上基本上只有福克斯新闻在指出这些荒谬的欺诈和浪费。

What's fascinating to me is how much the mainstream media is in line with the very specific talking points, and how little you have Fox News. You essentially have Fox News on television; it's like the only one that is pointing out the ridiculous fraud and waste.

是啊，我知道你看到了《华盛顿邮报》关于杰夫·贝佐斯的事。他们将停止所有古怪的社论，并将其限制在财富和个人自由之类的范围内。

Yeah, I know you saw the Jeff Bezos thing in the Washington Post. They're going to stop all the wacky editorials and limit that stuff to wealth and personal freedom or something along those lines.

是啊，是啊。所以我觉得这有道理，因为他只是谈论观点文章，而不是常规新闻。常规新闻保持不变。

Yeah, yeah. So I mean, I think it makes sense because he's just talking about the opinion pieces, not the regular journalism. The regular journalism stays the same.

嗯，这对他们的业务不利。我的意思是，你一次又一次地看到，人们不再想听这些人的这些言论了。这就像你感染了一种过时的病毒，而其他所有人已经对这种病毒有了免疫力。你需要一种新的思想病毒；你正在推的那个已经不管用了。它太疯狂了。

Well, it's a detriment to their business. I mean, you're seeing over and over again that people just don't want to hear all this from these people anymore. It's like you're caught in an outdated version of the virus, and everybody else already has the immunity to that virus. You need a new mind virus; the one you're pushing doesn't work anymore. It's too crazy.

是啊，整件事非常疯狂。我的意思是，媒体极度党派化。几乎所有媒体都左倾。所以有点奇怪。如果你和那些从我所称的‘传统媒体’获取所有信息的人交谈，他们生活在另一个世界，而如果他们听你的播客或从 X 获取新闻，则完全不同。这有点疯狂。我认识的很多人，我都得问‘你在哪儿听说的？’

Yeah, the whole thing is very crazy. I mean, the media is incredibly partisan. I mean, they're not—almost all the media is left-shifted. So it's kind of weird. If you talk to somebody who gets all their information from what I call legacy media, they're living in a different world than if they are listening to your podcast or getting news from X. It's kind of wild. There are a lot of people that I talk to that I have to ask, 'Where did you hear that?'

是啊，但我的意思是，美联社，我称之为‘联合宣传’，他们发了一篇国际新闻报道说 DOGE 解雇了空中交通管制员。但我们根本没有解雇任何空中交通管制员。事实上，我们正在努力招聘空中交通管制员，而不是解雇他们。

Yeah, but I mean, the Associated Press, which I call Associated Propaganda, the AP, they ran an international news story saying that DOGE fired air traffic controllers. But we didn't fire any air traffic controllers at all. In fact, we're trying to hire air traffic controllers, not fire them.

是啊，我看到你发了一条推文。现在你管它叫什么？叫帖子？不过你不能叫推文了。你是不小心叫成推文了吗？

Yeah, I saw that you made a tweet about it. What do you call it now? Do you call it a post? You can't call it a tweet though. Do you call it a tweet accidentally?

我不知道。听着，但如果有人发了一个两小时的视频，那不是推文；那是帖子。说得好。

I don't know. Listen, but if somebody puts up a two-hour-long video, that's not a tweet; it's a post. Good point.

是啊，确实。

Yeah, for sure.

所以，但我发帖说了，我们需要高素质的空中交通管制员。如果你退休了，如果你愿意再干一次，我们可以用你。很多非常合格的空中交通管制员因为 DEI（多元、公平、包容）而被赶走。不客气地说，一群非常优秀、有才华的老白男被赶走了。这不好。所以我们因为 DEI 和不按能力招聘而面临空中交通管制人才短缺。这太疯狂了。我认为我们不应该因为某种疯狂的理念而危及公共安全。今天有人发帖说它渗透进了 NSA。你看到那些了吗？那是一些很糟糕的东西。

So, but I posted about it, saying that we need highly qualified air traffic controllers. If you retired, if you would consider doing it again, we could use you. A lot of really qualified air traffic controllers were pushed out because of DEI stuff. Not to be blunt, but a bunch of really good, talented old white guys were pushed out. It's not cool. So we have a talent shortage in air traffic control because of DEI and not hiring people on merit. Which is so crazy. I think we should not put public safety at risk because of some demented philosophy. Somebody made a post today about it infiltrating the NSA. Did you see any of that? That was some gnarly stuff.

是啊，疯狂。他们做的——一开始只是这种边缘的东西，人们会见面，然后它完全渗透了……

Yeah, crazy. What they did—it started off as just this sort of fringe thing, and people would meet up, then it completely infiltrated the...

他们把所有时间都花在那上面，大概有 400 人左右，在一些聊天室里搞极其变态的东西。

They were spending all their time there, like 400 people or something, in some chat sex chat room with some extremely demented stuff.

我知道，我看到了。我会发给你，Jamie，因为这太离谱了。

I know, I saw it. I'll send it to you, Jamie, because it's so cooky.

这可是 NSA。我以为 NSA 只负责情报和监视国家威胁。

This is the NSA. I thought the NSA was all about information and spying on national threats.

所以，Gabbert 说，超过 100 名情报人员因在 NSA 聊天室发送色情短信将被解雇。

So, more than 100 intelligence staffers will be fired over sexually explicit texts in NSA chat rooms, Gabbert says.

一位高级情报官员告诉 Waters，涉事员工厚颜无耻地使用本应用于专业工作的 NSA 平台进行这种可怕的行为。

A top intelligence official told Waters that the workers in question were brazen, using an NSA platform intended for professional use to conduct this horrific behavior.

具体是什么行为？文章里怎么说？

What exactly is the behavior? What does the article say?

文章说员工参与了淫秽、色情和露骨的聊天室。你的税金就这样被用掉了。

It says employees participated in obscene, pornographic, and sexually explicit chat rooms. Your tax dollars at work.

全是 LGBTQ 内容，很多变性相关的东西。我肯定保存了。

It was all LGBTQ stuff, a lot of transition stuff. I definitely saved it.

但关键是，这已经渗透到了组织内部。这根本不是他们该讨论的内容。他们应该保护国家。

But the point is, it had infiltrated the organization. It's not what they should be talking about at all. They're supposed to be protecting the country.

人们说他们一半时间都花在这些会议上，不断参加这些讨论。你们到底在干什么？

People were talking about how they spend half their time in these meetings, constantly having to attend these things where they talk about these issues. What are you doing?

如果有人存在歧视问题，就开除那个人。就这么简单。问题就解决了。

If you have a problem with someone that's discriminatory, get rid of that person. That's it. Problem's over.

如果你的公司里有恐同的人，公开恐同，那就不能在这里工作。这不酷。就这样。你不需要不断开会宣传这些。反复斥责不会改变别人的看法。

If you have someone who's homophobic in your business, openly homophobic, you can't work here. That's not cool. That's it. You don't have to have meetings constantly promoting this. You're not going to change someone's opinion by berating them over and over again.

工作环境应该是专业的，完成他们受雇做的工作。不应该为了古怪的性冒险而拿工资。

A work environment should be professional, where they're getting the job done that they're paid to do. It shouldn't be about getting paid for bizarre sexcapades.

有趣的是，这种病毒如此强大，竟然渗透进了 NSA。你会以为那里都是强硬的人。CIA 也卷入了，这太疯狂了。

It's fascinating that the virus was so strong that it made it into the NSA. You would think those are hard-nosed people. The CIA too, they were in there too, which is bananas.

你会以为同样如此：强硬、坚韧的人做艰苦的工作，可以随时监视你，随时报复你。相当疯狂。

You would think the same thing: hard-nosed, tough people doing hard work who can spy on you whenever they want and get revenge on you whenever they want. Pretty wild.

总统离职时他们还在；他们留下来。人们来来去去，但你整个职业生涯都是组织的一部分。你深深嵌入他们的系统，了解运作方式，谁该巴结，谁是坏人，谁是好人，谁站在我们这边，谁不是。其实很可怕。

They exist when the president leaves; they stay. People move around, you stay a part of the organization for your entire career. You get deeply entrenched in their system and how things work, who's back to rub, who's a bad guy, who's a good guy, who's on our side, who's not. It's scary actually.

所以，这就是爱泼斯坦文件拖了这么久的原因吗？到底怎么回事？

So, is that what's taken so long with these Epstein files? What's up with that?

就像露西和查理·布朗的橄榄球，她总是把球抽走。一样的事。他们一直说要公布。第一天，哦第一天。我们面临一个严重问题：没人被捕。O 恐惧症，你知道吗？

It's like Lucy and the football with Charlie Brown when she always pulls that football away. It's the same thing. They keep telling us they're going to release it. Day one, oh day one. We have a serious case of no one being arrested. O phobia, you know?

还有一种真正的恐惧，就是有人在销毁证据。你不断听到这些故事，未经证实的，关于 FBI 人员……我的意思是，那家伙有大量视频和录音。他有各种东西。证据堆积如山。那么那座山在哪？

There's also this real fear that someone's destroying the evidence. You keep hearing these stories, unsubstantiated stories, of FBI people where the evidence... I mean, the guy had tons of videos and recordings. He had all sorts of things. There's a mountain of evidence. So where's that mountain?

他们同意不公布的原因是什么？肯定对他们有好处。某种财务纠葛，与名单上的人有某种关系，以至于他们能提供足够大的价值，让你不公布，或缓慢公布，或希望你能侥幸发布一些不显示任何内容的删节文件。

What would be the reason why they would agree to not put it out? There would have to be something in it for them. Some sort of financial entanglement, some sort of relationship with the people on that list, that they can provide a value big enough for you to not release it, or slow release it, or hope you can get away with putting out some redacted files that don't show anything.

这只是删节版，删节版，删节版。只是第一阶段。别担心，真正的东西会来的。这毫无道理。为什么不全部公布？里面有什么值得保护的？

This is only redacted, redacted, redacted. Only stage one. Don't worry, the real stuff's coming. That doesn't make any sense. Why wouldn't you just release it all? What could possibly be worth protecting in there?

我想我可能得到了同样的信息。我只是在看 X 上的最新消息。我刷着 X 动态，心想，这真是引人入胜。我以为我们会得到一些爆料。就像装满东西的大活页夹。里面肯定有料。

I think I've got probably the same information. I'm just reading what's the latest thing on X. I'm just looking at my X feed and I'm like, yeah, it's a real page turner. I thought we were going to get some revelations. It was like big binders full of stuff. There's got to be something in there.

所有拿到副本的人都像拿到了威利·旺卡的金票一样挥舞着。然后呢？什么都没发生。所以 Laura Loomer 在网上公布了。我想我在看她。她对此很不满。

All those people that were given a copy of it were waving around like they got the Willy Wonka ticket. And what happened? Nothing. So Laura Loomer released it online. I think I'm watching her. She's not very pleased about this.

有人发现里面有什么有趣的东西吗？没有。全是 2015 年的旧东西。到底怎么回事？

Does anybody find anything in there that's interesting? No. It's all old stuff from 2015. What the hell is going on?

显然他们在纽约南区发现了一大堆东西。我觉得 Pam Bondi 和 Kash Patel 其实很棒，但他们刚上任。他们身处敌对环境，不是友好环境。

Apparently they discovered a whole bunch of stuff at the Southern District of New York. And I think Pam Bondi is actually great and Kash Patel is great, but they just got there. They're in a hostile environment, not a friendly one.

就像你突然被任命为一艘船的船长，但船员以前是你的敌人。整个船员以前都是你的敌人。你告诉他们，‘把证据给我。’船员不想给你证据。他们刚才还是你的死敌。你刚到。

It's like if you suddenly got put in captain of a ship but the crew was previously your enemy. The entire crew was previously your enemy. You're telling them, 'Give me evidence.' The crew doesn't want to give you the evidence. They were your mortal enemies just a moment ago. You just got there.

我认为我们得给司法部长和 FBI 新局长一点宽容，因为他们真的刚到。

I think we got to give the Attorney General and the new Director of the FBI a little bit of slack here because they literally just got there.

我也这么认为。但是，嘿，那就别说第一天就公布。你不该那么说。也别说明天有大料，结果却是老掉牙的东西。真令人失望。

I think so too. But hey, don't say you're going to release it on day one then. You shouldn't have said that. And don't say you got a big drop coming tomorrow and then it's something that's been around forever. It's disappointing.

搞什么？肯尼迪文件呢？那些在哪？公布吧。他们在这方面公布什么了吗？

What the hell? And where's the JFK files? Where are those? Let them go. Did they release anything on that front?

我不知道怎么回事。肯定还没到我手上。如果还没到我手上，那就不重要。如果有阴谋证据，肯定会有人发给我。Tim Dillon 会发短信给我，100%。Tim Dillon、Dave Smith，肯定会有人发给我。所以还没公布。

I don't know what's going on. It can't be anything that's gotten to me yet. So if nothing's gotten to me yet, it can't be significant. If there's conspiracy evidence, someone's going to send it. Tim Dillon's going to text me, 100%. Tim Dillon, Dave Smith, someone's going to send my way. So it hasn't been released yet.

你会知道的。真正的问题是：到了现在，里面还有什么他们没清理掉的？如果你有 1963 年的文件，里面有什么？

You would find out. And here's the real question: what could even be in there at this point that they haven't cleared out? If you've got paperwork from 1963, what is in there?

但里面到底有什么可能构成罪证的东西？据说特朗普说过：‘如果你看到他们给我看的东西，你也不会公布。’这到底是什么意思？我没看到过。所以卡什看到了？是的，他说他全都看过了。他能不能直接发到他的 X 账号上？这听起来像是埃隆会干的事。

Still, what is in there that could possibly be incriminating? That supposedly Trump said, 'If you saw what they showed me, you wouldn't release it either.' Okay, what the hell does that mean? I haven't seen it. So Kash has? Yes, he said he's seen it all. Can he just post it to his X account or something? That sounds like an Elon move.

我觉得他不能。他是 FBI 局长，得走正规渠道。他有渠道吗？有，但有规矩。他听起来像特朗普。他需要一道行政命令。

I don't think he can. He's the director of the FBI. I think he has to go through proper channels. Does he have the channel? Yeah, but there are rules. He sounds like Trump. He needs an executive order.

那‘我就是风暴’呢？什么渠道？他就是渠道。再想象一下，你刚登上船体或甲板，你是船长。现在你得搞清楚谁在管事，谁在干这些，东西都在哪。什么事都办不成。就像你刚当上船长，但船员都恨你入骨。他们曾是你的敌人。他们强烈反对你想做的任何事。你想给他们下命令，想揭露他们。他们不想被揭露。在那里工作的人很可能就是问题的一部分。

What about 'I am the storm'? I mean, what channels? He is the channel. Well, again, imagine just getting to the hull or the deck of the ship and you're the captain. Now you have to figure out who's running things, who's doing this, where everything is. Just getting anything done. Like you just joined as captain of a ship where the crew hates your guts. They were your enemy. They're strongly opposed to anything you want to do. You're trying to give them orders and expose them. They don't want to be exposed. People working there are probably part of this problem.

我在 X 上看到科米的女儿是纽约南区首席检察官。你看到了吗？看到了。所以显然有点牵连。万一有什么东西让她爸难堪呢？她肯定会按删除键。

I was reading on X that Comey's daughter is the lead prosecutor in the Southern District of New York. Did you read that? Yes. So obviously there's a bit of an entanglement there. What if there's something that puts her dad in a bad light? She'd hit that delete button.

你看到弗林将军了吗？他上了个播客，直接对詹姆斯·科米说：‘吉姆，你要进监狱了，除非你供出比你更深的人，你知道我说的是谁。’这太疯狂了。

Did you see General Flynn? He was on a podcast and spoke directly to James Comey. He said, 'Jim, you're going to jail unless you give up someone deeper than you, and you know who that is.' That is wild.

我觉得前 FBI 局长可能真的陷得很深。他在掌管 FBI 时确实干了一些邪恶腐败的事。似乎有一些非常见不得人的勾当。这种事在 60 年代肯定发生过。大家都承认 FBI 杀了黑豹党成员。他们干了很多我们知道的政府当年干的事。

I think the former director of the FBI might be really in that deep. He actually was doing some evil, corrupt things while running the FBI. There seems to be some very shady stuff going on. It definitely happened in the '60s. Everybody admits the FBI killed Black Panthers. They did a lot of stuff we know the government did back in the day.

为什么不直接把文件数据全部公开？进去把所有文件（大概是纸质文件）拍下来，直接发到网上。让结果顺其自然。是不是在某个文件柜里？我不知道。那个神奇的文件柜在哪？他们怎么藏的？谁有权限？我本来希望第一天就能这样。显然这需要更长的时间。

Why don't we just data dump the files? Go in there, take photos of all the papers, presumably paper, and just post it online. Let the chips fall where they may. Is it presumably in some filing cabinet somewhere? I don't know. Where is the magic filing cabinet? How are they hiding it? Who has access to it? This is what I was hoping for on day one. Obviously it's taking a lot longer than that.

假设你被任命为 FBI 局长。这太疯狂了。他现在在干什么？他是 FBI 的大人物之一，但他是特勤局出身。一个正经人。但人们把他当成福克斯新闻的人，就像皮特·赫格塞斯一样。他们不想考虑他杰出的军旅生涯。他们只想说：‘哦，那个福克斯新闻的人。’FBI 局长、副局长。丹很硬核。如果东西合理可寻，我觉得他会找到。这是他和卡什之间的事。我觉得他们会找到东西。

Let's say you were made director of the FBI. That's what's crazy. Literally, what is he doing now? He's one of the big dogs of the FBI, but he's a Secret Service guy. A legit guy. But people think of him as a Fox News guy, just like Pete Hegseth. They don't want to think about his distinguished military career. They want to say, 'Oh, that Fox News guy.' Director, deputy director of the FBI. Dan is hardcore. If it's reasonably findable, I think he's going to find it. This is between him and Kash. I think they're going to get stuff.

如果他们找不到，那得有多疯狂？如果所有人都闭嘴、互相包庇呢？一台 FBI 电脑，你输入搜索……我只是想基本机制。要么是纸质文件柜，有层层安全级别。打开这扇门，你需要这一级的通行证。解锁一级，还有一台笔记本电脑。你得插上电。它在 SCIF（敏感隔离信息设施）里。

How crazy would it be if they couldn't? If everybody shuts their mouth and covers their ass? An FBI computer where you type in the search... I just think about the basic mechanism. It's either in a filing cabinet in paper, with progressive levels of security. Open this door, you need a pass for this level. Level unlocked, and there's a laptop. You have to plug it in. It's in a SCIF.

这就是为什么我觉得参观诺克斯堡会很棒。现场直播参观诺克斯堡。我们就能亲眼看到黄金还在不在。他们说在。是真的，还是有人把铅块喷了漆？想象一下如果黄金不全在那里。有些不见了。去哪了？如果很多都不见了呢？一半不见了？我们怎么知道？上一次让人查看是几十年前。上一次正式审计是在 50 年代。

This is why I think a tour of Fort Knox would be awesome. A live tour of Fort Knox. We can actually see if the gold is there or not. They say it is. Is it real, or did somebody spray-paint some lead? Imagine if it's not all there. Some of it's missing. Where did it go? What if a lot of it's missing? Half of it's missing? How do we even know? The last time they let someone look at it was decades ago. The last formal audit was in the '50s.

想想你指出的所有其他东西：开出的支票、非政府组织付款、社会保障。把同样的问题套用到黄金上。我只是想强调政府的疯狂。他们有魔法般的金钱计算机。联邦政府的支票永远不会跳票。你没有公司或个人那种正常的纠正机制。支票总是能兑现。最终结果是通货膨胀，实际上是对每个人征税。国防部已经七年没有通过审计了。

Think about all the other stuff you pointed out: the checks that go out, the NGO payments, Social Security. Apply that to the gold. I just want to emphasize the sheer madness of the government. They have magic money computers. All the checks never bounce for the federal government. You don't have the normal corrective mechanism you'd have for a company or an individual. The checks always clear. The net result is inflation, which is effectively a tax on everyone. The Defense Department hasn't passed an audit in seven years.

你得是查克·诺里斯才能让国防部通过审计。你需要那种级别的技能。这就是为什么这么疯狂。如果你把它当成一家企业，这在任何正常企业里都是不可容忍的。五角大楼的会计错误，他们丢在沙发垫子里的钱，每年有 200 到 300 亿美元。他们不知道钱去哪了。没了。太疯狂了。

You'd have to be Chuck Norris to get the Defense Department to pass an audit. That's the level of skill you need. That's what's so insane. If you bring it back to the idea that it's a business, this would never be tolerated in any functional business. The Pentagon's accounting errors, the stuff they lose in the couch cushions, is 20 to 30 billion dollars a year. They don't know where it went. It's gone. It's so insane.

这就是为什么我说，即使是简单的要求，比如财政部电脑的对外付款必须有付款代码、付款用途说明和联系人，也会对阻止浪费性支出和欺诈产生非常强大的效果。

That's why I said even simple things like requiring outgoing payments from the Treasury computer to have a payment code, a comment about what the payment is for, and someone to call about the payment, would have a very powerful effect in stopping wasteful outflows and fraud.

还有另一种看法。想象一下，如果世界上有像你和 DOGE 团队这样的人。想象一下，如果其中一个人为像美国国际开发署这样的组织工作，深知其中有多少猫腻，但心怀恶意，并且在这个系统中纠缠了几十年。他们建立了职业生涯和随之而来的所有牵连。

Here's another way to look at this. Imagine if there are people like you and the DOGE team out there. Imagine if one of them works for an organization like USAID or any other organization, has this understanding of how much fuckery is involved, but has evil intentions, and they're entwined in this system for decades. They've built a career and all the entanglements that come with it.

而且他们开始四处活动，你大概能轻松做到。按照你的描述，如果你是个资深业内人士，一直待在里面，知道一切怎么运作，又很聪明，你就能搞出点名堂，可能还能跟你认识的、正在组建非政府组织的人合作——嘿，我们一起干吧。对，对，这就是你面临的阻力。我觉得这是史上最大的骗局，你从没见过这么大的骗局，人类历史上最大的骗局。是的，哇，我觉得你说得对。对，还有别的吗？大概是个万亿美元的骗局，从来没有过万亿美元的骗局。你知道，这可不是你一开始想做的事，这不是你的职业抱负，这简直是我能想象到的最荒谬的结果。实际上，狗狗币最初也是一种 meme 币，对吧？它就是一个关于 meme 和狗的玩笑加密货币。嗯，有趣的是，缩写最后竟然完美契合。其实我本来想叫“政府效率委员会”，一个很无聊的名字，然后网上的人说，不，应该叫“政府效率部”。我说，你说得对，当然，当然。这更像是模拟世界的证据，那个小吉祥物是一只可爱的狗，一个 meme 币。这个 meme 币现在可能值很多钱，对吧？每次你发推文，它可能就涨了。对，整个 meme 币的事情太疯狂了。人们把真金白银投进这些币里，然后你可以拉高出货，就像赌场一样。我不知道，对，完全是赌博。人们就是玩“博傻游戏”和“抢椅子”，最后坐下的人输。不知怎么的，它居然还是合法的。我觉得没多少人……这有点像你去赌场，如果你指望在赌场赢钱，你就是个傻瓜。所以我认为如果你指望靠 meme 币赢钱，那你就是愚蠢。对，对，你不可能靠 meme 币赢钱。但如果你想玩一玩，可以小赌一把，跟着波动赚点小钱或亏点小钱，找点乐子。但别把毕生积蓄投进 meme 币。最奇怪的是拉高出货，人们总是上当，然后惊讶地发现有人拉高出货。你在干什么？你指望我也拉高出货？我指望赚走所有钱，不敢相信我被坑了。对，奇怪的是它居然还合法。赌场也合法，人们在赌场输钱，但你不能操纵赌场，而拉高出货可以操纵。对，我想是的，你可以搞真正的金字塔骗局。要我说，政府本身就是一个大金字塔骗局。对，你可以说社会保障是有史以来最大的庞氏骗局。解释一下。

And they start moving around you could probably do it easy it sounds like the way you've laid it out if you were a career person who's in there forever who knew how everything works and you were very clever you could make some happen and you could probably do it in conjunction with some people that you know that are forming an NGO hey let's all work together yeah yeah and this is the resistance that you're facing yeah the I think it's the biggest scam of all time this is not something you ever saw the biggest scam of all time ever of human history of human history yes wow I think you're right yeah I how what else probably a trillion dollar scam there's never been a trillion dollar scam you know now this is not something that you ever set out to do this is not you didn't have this as a career aspiration this is not like this is the most absurd outcome I can possibly imagine actually also like Doge started as like a sort of a a meme coin right you know it was like a a joke cryptocurrency involving memes and dogs mhm um and uh which is so funny that the letters wind up being perfect yeah well actually I was originally going a quote like the government efficiency commission which is very boring name um and then people online were no it needs to be the department of government efficiency uh and I was like you know what you're right of course of course of course I mean it's more evidence of the simulation that that little like a mascot is a is a cute dog it's a meme coin the meme coin is probably worth a lot of money right now right like every time you tweet about it probably I don't know shoots up yeah the mem the whole meme coin thing is bananas yeah it is so bananas that people dump real money into these coins and then you could just pump them up and sell them a casino or something I don't know yeah it's totally G people just do whatever the greater fo and musical chairs and whoever's like the last to sit down lose type of thing and somehow or another it's still legal like that's that's think not I think not too many people I mean I mean it's sort of like you go to the casino like you if you expect to win at the casino you're being a fool okay so I think if you expect to win at meme coins you're being it's not you're being foolish yeah yeah you're not gonna win a meme coins it's like it's it's but if if if you want like don't sink your life savings into a meme coin no but you can gamble a little and you can ride waves and win a little and lose a little if if you want to have some fun and and don't come then you know play have play with me and coins but if you put your if you put your on a m coin in the at the RIS of saying something bold and outrageous don't bet the F on a mcoin the weird one is the pump and dumps like people all time all the time and people get shocked that somebody pump and dumped like what is what are you doing did you like I was hoping to dump I was hoping to make all the money out of this I can't believe they got me like yeah it's just weird that it's legal still uh I mean casinos IL legal and and people just lose money at casinos you know but you can't rig a casino like a pump and dump you could rig a pump and dump you know uh yeah I guess so um like you could run a real pyramid scheme well I mean the government's one a big pyramid scheme if you ask me yeah well you you can tell Social Security is is the biggest Ponzi scheme of all time right explain that

哦，人们缴纳社会保障金，但这些钱立刻就被花掉了，而社会保障的负债却覆盖你整个退休生涯。所以，如果你看看社会保障的未来负债，它远远超过税收收入。你看过债务钟吗？是的。我们有当前的债务，还有未来的负债。所以当你考虑社会保障的未来负债时，实际的国债是人们以为的两倍，因为还有未来负债。啊，所以基本上人们寿命比预期长得多，而且出生率下降。所以退休的人更多，活得更久，领取退休金的时间更长。所以未来负债……联邦政府现在的财务状况已经很糟了，未来会更糟。冒着扫兴的风险，你看到了吗？所以我们最好现在就解决眼前的问题，因为如果现在已经很糟，未来只会更糟。

Oh, so well people pay into Social Security and the money goes out of Social Security immediately, but the obligation for Social Security is your entire retirement career. So you're paying with your... if you look at the future obligations of Social Security, it far exceeds the tax revenue. Have you ever looked at the debt clock? Yes. There's our present day debt, but then there's our future obligations. So when you look at the future obligations of Social Security, the actual national debt is like double what people think it is because of the future obligations. Ah, so basically people are living way longer than expected, and there are fewer babies being born. So you have more people who are retired and live for a long time and get retirement payments. So the future obligations... how bad the financial situation is right now for the federal government, it will be much worse in the future. At the risk of being a buzzkill here, did you see... so we better fix what we got right now because if it's bad now, it's going to be much worse in the future.

有个采访，一位女性吹哨人。我们后来查证过那是真的吗？现在吹哨人太多了，都记不清。很多吹哨人。这位女士，只在一个州，非常具体的事件，对吧？但涉及社会保障资金，对吗？那是她的指控。她指控的内容是，她负责把非法移民变成“客户”——他们就是这么叫的——然后她会去找他们，问他们：你头疼吗？你背疼吗？如果你现在有，你就可以被认定为永久残疾。你就能拿到永久残疾补助，终身享受社会保障。对，对，不仅是社会保障，还有残疾补助，金额更高，对吧？然后他们立刻就能靠纳税人养活。而且他们是非法移民。是的。哦，所以如果我问，为什么民主党的宣传机器这么起劲地要毁掉我，主要原因就是这个。主要原因是，福利欺诈，包括社会保障、残疾补助、医疗补助，针对非法移民的福利欺诈，就像一个巨大的磁铁，把全世界的人吸引过来并留在这里。基本上，如果你给人们的生活水平超过地球上 90%的人，那么你就给了地球上 90%的人一个非常强大的激励，让他们来这里并留下。但如果你终止非法移民欺诈，你就关掉了这块磁铁，他们就会离开，不再来，而已经在这里的很多人也会离开。如果发生这种情况，他们就会失去大量民主党选民。而如果不发生，他们就会把这些人都变成选民，对吧，他们正在这么做。他们已经在这么做了。所以在纽约州，非法移民已经可以在州和市选举中投票。很多人不知道。我是说，他们正在试图阻止，但现在已经存在了。我觉得大约有 60 万非法移民在纽约登记投票。这太疯狂了。对，嗯，我是说，你看 FEMA，那个为非法移民支付纽约豪华酒店费用的机构就是 FEMA。那就是说……

There was an interview with this woman who was a whistleblower. Did we ever find out if that was true? There's so many whistles being blown it's hard to keep track. A lot of whistles. This one lady, it was only in one state, it was very specific instance, right? But it was using Social Security money, correct? That was her allegation. So what she was alleging was that she was in charge of turning illegal immigrants into clients, that's what they would call them, and that she would go to them and try to ask them, do you have a headache? Do you have back problems? If you do now, you can be permanently disabled. You get permanent disability, so you get Social Security for life. Yes, yeah, no, not just Social Security but disability, which is even more, right? And you get them on the taxpayer dole right away. And they're illegal aliens. Yes. Oh, so if I were to say like what's at the heart of the sort of like why is a Democrat propaganda machine so fired up to destroy me, that's the main reason. The main reason is that entitlements fraud that includes like Social Security, Disability, Medicaid, entitlements fraud for illegal aliens is what is serving as a gigantic magnetic force to pull people in from all around the world and keep them here. Like basically if you pay people at a standard of living that is above 90% of Earth, then you have a very powerful incentive for 90% of Earth to come here and to stay here. But if you end the illegal alien fraud, then you turn off that magnet and they leave and they stop coming, and the ones that are here, many of them will simply leave. And if that happens, they will lose a massive number of Democratic voters. And if it didn't happen, they would turn those people into voters, correct, which they were trying to do. They are already turning them. So in New York state, illegal aliens can already vote in state and city elections. A lot of people don't know that. There's... I mean they're trying to fight that, they're trying to stop that, but it's there currently. I think it's like 600,000 are registered to vote, illegal aliens in New York. That is wild. Yeah, well, I mean if you look at say FEMA, like the agency that was paying for illegal aliens to stay at luxury hotels in New York was FEMA. That's meant that that's...

一个本应帮助受灾美国人的机构，却在纽约为非法移民支付豪华酒店的费用。这是真的，没错，这是事实。当我们停止那笔付款时，我们停止了所有那些钱，因为那显然是一种疯狂的纳税钱使用方式。纽约州起诉了联邦政府以获取这笔钱，所以你可以看看他们的诉讼。即使在特朗普总统签署行政命令要求停止后，他们仍然继续支付，向纽约的豪华酒店拨款 8000 万美元。你的纳税钱被用来支付纽约豪华酒店里的非法移民，而这家机构本应帮助受灾的美国人。没错，我想知道他们在北卡罗来纳州花了多少钱，在毛伊岛花了多少钱。是的，完全正确。

An agency that's meant to support Americans in distress from natural disasters was paying for luxury hotels for illegals in New York. It's true, yeah, that's a fact. They literally, when we stopped that payment, we stopped all that money because that's obviously an insane way to spend taxpayer money. The New York sued the federal government to get the money, so you can just look at their lawsuit. They were sending that money even after President Trump signed an executive order saying it needs to stop. They still pressed on, sending $80 million to luxury hotels in New York. Your tax money went to pay for illegal aliens in luxury hotels in New York from an agency that is meant to help Americans in distress from natural disasters. Right, and I would like to know how much they spent on North Carolina and how much they spent on Maui. Yes, exactly.

实际发生的是他们在购买选民。这才是真正发生的事情。这就像一个巨大的选民欺诈骗局。他们在进口选民，而这只是时间问题。所以很多人很难相信这一点，但你看得越多，就越会意识到这个问题有多严重，它不仅真实存在，而且是在试图摧毁美国的民主。在我看来，这就是它的本质。如果你看看七个摇摆州，通常胜出的差距可能只有 2 万票。如果你在那里放进 20 万非法移民，他们有 80%的投票可能性，而且他们成为公民只是时间问题，那么这些摇摆州将来就不再是摇摆州了。如果它们不再是摇摆州，我们将成为一个永久的单一政党国家，一个永久的深蓝社会主义国家。这就是美国将会变成的样子。而这就是他们的计划，现在仍然是他们的计划，而且他们几乎成功了。如果那个以卡马拉傀儡为代表的机器赢了，那就会发生。我之所以如此坚定地支持特朗普，是因为对我来说这是一个分岔路口，一个非常明显的分岔路口。如果他们再执政四年，他们会让足够多的非法移民在摇摆州合法化，使摇摆州不再摇摆。它们就会变成蓝州。然后他们就会赢得总统、众议院、参议院和总统职位。然后他们会把华盛顿特区变成一个州，也许还有波多黎各，增加四个参议员，并塞满最高法院。这样众议院、司法部、参议院和总统职位就全是蓝色的了。然后他们会继续进口更多非法移民来巩固这个结果，基本上就是加州发生的情况。那将是终结。这就是为什么我如此坚定地支持特朗普。否则就会是终结。而这就是为什么民主党机器如此致力于摧毁我。人们看不到这一点真是太令人着迷了。我邀请人们去做研究。他们做得越多，就越会看到我说的是绝对正确的。去做研究吧。

What's actually happened is they're buying voters. That's really what's happening. It's like a giant voter fraud scam. They're importing voters, and it's really just a matter of time. So a lot of people have trouble believing this, but if you look at it more, you will realize just how much of a problem this is and how it's not just real, it is an attempt to destroy democracy in America. That's what, in my view, it really is. If you take the seven swing states, often the margin of victory is maybe 20,000 votes. If you put 200,000 illegals in there and they have an 80% likelihood of voting, and it's only a matter of time before they become citizens, then those swing states will not be swing states in the future. If they are not swing states, we will be a permanent one-party state, a permanent deep blue socialist state. That's what America will become. And that was the game plan, that is still the game plan, and they almost succeeded. If the machine, of which the Kam puppet was the representation, had won, that's what would have happened. The reason I went so hardcore for Trump was because to me this was a fork in the road, a very obvious fork in the road. If they had another four years, they would legalize enough illegals in the swing states to make the swing states not swing states. They would just be blue states. Then they would win the presidency, the House, the Senate, and the presidency. They would then make DC into a state, maybe Puerto Rico, get four extra Senators, pack the Supreme Court. So you'll have the House, Judiciary, Senate, and presidency all blue. Then they will keep importing more illegals to cement that outcome, basically what happened in California. It would have been the end. That's why I went so hardcore for Trump. It would have otherwise been the end. And that's why the Democrat machine is so intent on destroying me. It's just so fascinating that people can't see this. I invite people to do their research. The more they do their research, the more they will see that what I'm saying is absolutely true. Just do the research.

即使对民主党来说，这也是个非常糟糕的主意，他们不明白这一点。最终不会成功的。

It's such a bad idea even for the Democrats, which is what they don't understand. It's not ultimately going to work out.

不，是同一批人。是的，他们只是打着善良、富有同情心、进步的幌子在做。是的，但同样的结果会发生。这只是关于控制。他们可能会推行某种央行数字货币、某种社会信用评分系统和审查制度。当然，是的。

No, it's the same people. Yes, it's just they're doing it under the guise of being kind, compassionate, progressive people. Yes, but the same outcome takes place. It's just about control. They'll probably institute some central bank digital currency and some social credit score system and censorship, of course. Yeah, of course.

嗯，这次选举最大的恐惧就是，如果他们不能审查……嗯，我们之前谈过，但有两个主要的分岔路口。一个是特朗普没有被枪杀。另一个是你收购了 Twitter。如果这两件事没有发生，整个世界都会不同。是的，没错。我们不想处在那个时间线上。不，我们不想只有一方被代表，因为猜怎么着，他们会劫持那一方，不管是什么，他们会劫持那一方并利用它来获取金钱和控制。这就是全部的意义。这不是关于好人与坏人的问题。这是一个骗局。

Well, that was the big fear coming into this election, was that if they can't censor things... Well, we talked about it before, but there were two major forks in the road. The big one was Trump didn't get shot. The other big one was you buying Twitter. And if those two things don't happen, the whole world looks different. Yes, yeah. We don't want to be on that timeline. No, we don't want to have only one side represented, because guess what, they will hijack that side, whatever it is, they will hijack that side and use it for money and control. And that's what it's all about. It's not about good people versus bad people. It's a shell game.

我认为如果你看基本激励，这些事情其实很容易理解。这里的基本激励是，民主党能引进的非法移民越多，他们就越有可能获胜。所以这就是他们会做的。这就是他们一直在做的。而且在加州奏效了。加州是超级民主党多数。看看所有正在离开加州的公司。In-N-Out 刚刚宣布他们正在搬离总部，离开加州，搬到田纳西州。而且加州从去年开始为非法移民提供免费医疗。这显然是一个巨大的磁铁，吸引更多非法移民。这不是一个能用钱简单解决的问题，因为结果就是病人数量远远超过医生能看诊的数量，而且你不能凭空制造医生。一个人成为医生需要很长时间，30 年。所以在加州实际发生的情况是，病人太多，医生看不过来，结果普通加州公民因此受苦。而加州的精英们没问题，因为他们有私人医生，他们可以花钱请最好的医生。所以加州的精英们过得很好，但普通加州公民过得不好。为非法移民提供医疗的税收负担原本预计是 30 亿美元，我想现在估计是 90 亿美元。但这个数字基本上会无限扩大。就像，为什么不呢？如果你需要任何手术，从地球任何地方来加州，免费做。而那些以最善意的方式看待这件事的人说，‘哦，这些人勤劳善良，是我们城市的支柱，他们应该享有我们享有的一切。’我只是认为他们不明白这是一个政治棋子。我认为他们不明白这不是出于同情和善意。不，这只是为了确保它保持蓝色。没错，是的。这本质上是用你的纳税钱进行贿赂。是的，这就是为什么民主党甚至不会驱逐罪犯。因为每驱逐一个罪犯，就失去一张选票。所以即使有人是非法移民且有犯罪记录，在美国犯了罪，他们仍然不会被驱逐。而且除此之外，加州还……

I think these things are actually easy to understand if you look at basic incentives. The basic incentive here is the more illegals that the Democrats can bring in, the more likely they are to win. So that's what they're going to do. That's what they have been doing. And it worked in California. California super majority Dem. And look at all the companies that are leaving California. In-N-Out just announced they're leaving their headquarters, leaving California, they're moving to Tennessee. And California made healthcare free for illegals as of last year. And that obviously is a gigantic magnet for more illegals. And this is not a thing you can solve simply with money, because what happens is you simply have more patients than a doctor can possibly see, and you can't just make doctors out of nothing. It takes a long time for somebody to become a doctor, 30 years. And so what actually happens in California is that there are too many patients for the doctors to see, so the average citizen in California suffers as a result. Now the elite in California are fine because they have private doctors, they can just pay for the best doctors. So the elite in California are doing fine, but your average citizen in California is not doing fine. And the tax burden for healthcare for illegals was supposed to be $3 billion, I think they now estimate it's $9 billion. But that number will scale to infinity basically. It's like why not? If you need any operation at all, come to California and have it be free, right from anywhere on earth. And the people that want to look at it in the most charitable way say, 'Oh well, these people are hardworking good people and they're the backbone of our city and they should have access to all the things that we have access to.' And I just don't think they understand that it's a political pawn. I don't think they understand this is not done for compassion and kindness. No, this is just done to ensure that it stays blue. Correct, yeah. And it's essentially a bribery with your tax dollars. Yes, this is why the Dems will not even deport criminals. Because every criminal deported is a lost vote. So even if somebody is illegal with a criminal record and commits crime in America, they are still not being deported. And then on top of that, California made...

实际上，要求投票时出示身份证是非法的。是的，加州和纽约，投票时不允许出示身份证。我想说清楚，让大家明白：在加州和纽约，即使你想出示身份证也不允许。对吧？这怎么会是个好主意？我是说，什么？如果你想在选举中方便舞弊，那倒是个好主意。这是唯一的原因。是的，没有其他理由，真的，为什么这会是个好主意。就是为了舞弊。就像，醒醒吧！醒醒吧！喂！假设你想舞弊，你会怎么做？对，你会说不需要身份证，你可以邮寄选票，我们还会给你免费医疗。是的，待在这里。是的，待在这里。我知道这里着火了，但待在这里。我是说，在这种情况下，着火在加州不只是个比喻。好吧，就像，天哪，整个社区都在烧。一旦他们允许非法移民在加州投票，一旦你这么做，就完了。没错。没有回头路了。数字就是……

It actually illegal to ask for ID when people vote. Yes, California and New York, you are not allowed to show your ID when you vote. I just want to be clear so everyone understands this: in California and New York, you are not allowed to show your ID even if you want to. Right? Why would that ever be a good idea? I mean, what? If you're trying to facilitate fraud in elections, it's a great idea. That's the only reason. Yes, there's no other reason, really, why that would be a good idea. It's for fraud. It's like, wake up! Wake up! Hello! Let's say you wanted to commit fraud. What are the things you would do? Yeah, you would say you don't need ID, and you can mail in your ballot, and we'll give you free healthcare. Yes, stay here. Yes, stay here. I know it's on fire, but stay here. I mean, in this case, it being on fire is not just a metaphor in California. Okay, it's just like, goddamn, entire neighborhoods burning down. It's just once they allowed people to vote that are not legal in California, once you're going to do that, it's over. Exactly. There's no coming back from that. The numbers are just...

有太多人，无论如何，他们认为投票给共和党就意味着你是混蛋，所以他们不会这么做。他们会把彩虹旗挂在门廊上，然后一路冲向海滩。文明自杀。没错，直接撞向岩石，砰，船毁人亡。我是说，有个在 X 上发帖的人很棒，上帝这边，是的，我朋友，他上过播客，Punch Times，是的，他超棒，他很厉害。他谈到了基本上是自杀式共情。比如，有太多共情，以至于你实际上在自杀。所以我们正在经历文明自杀式共情。我相信共情，我认为你应该关心他人，但你需要对整个文明有共情，而不是走向文明自杀。还有，不要让别人利用你的共情来对付你，这样他们就能完全控制你的国家，然后管理得一塌糊涂却永远不会被赶下台。西方文明的根本弱点是共情，共情漏洞。他们正在利用西方文明的一个漏洞，那就是共情反应。我认为共情是好的，但你需要深思熟虑，而不是像机器人一样被编程。要明白共情何时被当作工具使用。是的，比如武器化的共情。这就是问题所在，武器化的共情。还有就是对那种自由派意识形态的僵化坚持。你不能转换立场。比如加州，如果你属于整个科技、好莱坞、娱乐界，任何这些圈子，你都是左派，几乎完全如此。在加州当共和党人几乎是违法的。我是说，在旧金山或洛杉矶，当共和党人几乎是违法的。你肯定会被排斥。

There's so many people that no matter what, they think voting Republican means you're an asshole, and they won't do it. They'll put their rainbow flag on their porch and they'll just ride it right into the beach. Civilizational suicide. Yeah, right to the rocks, bang, crash the boat. I mean, there's a guy who posts on X who's great, God's side, yeah, friend of mine, he's been on podcasts, Punch Times, yeah, he's awesome, he's great. And he talks about basically suicidal empathy. Like, there's so much empathy that you actually suicide yourself. So we've got civilizational suicidal empathy going on. And I believe in empathy, I think you should care about other people, but you need to have empathy for civilization as a whole and not commit to a civilizational suicide. Also, don't let someone use your empathy against you so they can completely control your state and then do an insanely bad job of managing it and never get removed. The fundamental weakness of Western Civilization is empathy, the empathy exploit. They're exploiting a bug in Western civilization, which is the empathy response. I think empathy is good, but you need to think it through and not just be programmed like a robot. Understand when empathy has been actually used as a tool. Yes, like weaponized empathy. That's the issue, weaponized empathy. And it's also the rigid adherence to that liberal ideology. You can't switch sides over there. Like California, if you're a part of that whole tech, Hollywood, entertainment, any of those circles, you're on the left, almost wholly, almost completely. It's borderline illegal to be a Republican in California. I mean, in San Francisco or LA, it's borderline illegal to be a Republican. You're certainly shunned.

不，你看，我是说在旧金山，你可以在市政厅前在市长车上拉屎的同时注射海洛因，好吧，什么都不会发生。但如果你戴着 MAGA 帽子走在街上，你会被攻击。是的，这太疯狂了。太疯狂了。而且这太奥威尔了，一顶写着'让美国再次伟大'的帽子会引起人们的暴力反应。难道你不是美国人吗？这对每个人来说不都是好事吗？让美国再次伟大。但因为它是唐纳德·特朗普和那顶红帽子，你会因为戴那顶红帽子而被喷辣椒水。他们会通过殴打你来让美国变得更糟。所以他们在做一件邪恶的事，在美国进行暴力攻击，因为你想要让美国再次伟大。我是说，这就像书里的场景。看起来不可能那么荒谬。还记得当'所有生命都重要'会让你被解雇吗？这太疯狂了。人们因为说了'所有生命都重要'而被解雇，这是非常合理的话。这有多合理？是的，这基本上就是说每个人都很重要。但这不是你应该说的。你必须说'黑人的命也是命'，当然他们很重要。如果你说'所有生命都重要'，每个人都很重要。是的，但色盲社会的想法在 2012 年左右被完全抛弃了。我是说，我大概可以追溯到枪表情符号被削弱的时候，你知道吗？它什么时候变成了水枪？那是几年前，大概是 2016 年，我想。是吗？是的，它变成了水枪。你能在 X 上把它带回来吗？是的，不，现在如果你在 X 上使用枪表情符号，苹果会坚持它是水枪，然后 X 应用会把它变回 1911 手枪。哦，真的吗？是的，哦，那太好了。所以你可以实际拥有一把 1911 手枪。我们在应用内撤销了苹果的更改。哦，真搞笑。真搞笑，那个东西那么冒犯，枪，还有孕妇男，这两个都让我受不了。我喜欢那个梗，就是告诉你你听到的是虚假信息的人，正是做了孕妇男表情符号的人。是的，想想吧。嗯，还有，同样的人说一个女人袭击了特斯拉工厂。是的，那个女人，是个男的。是个男的，很明显是男的，非常大块头，有精神病的男的。是的，有精神病的男的戴着假发。说出来。是的，但 NBC 甚至，你看照片，一个女人？哟，这是个下巴线条不对的男的，好吗？他戴着女人的脸。是个肌肉男。是的，是个肌肉男戴着女人的脸。我是说，拜托，那不是女人。是的，他们还说，小心虚假信息。我说，你在说什么？太疯狂了。这不过是病毒的更多证据，对吧？它杀死了客观性，杀死了现实，它要求严格服从，否则你就会受到攻击。是的，是的，任何质疑都会导致被排斥。

No, I look, I mean in San Francisco, you could shoot heroin while taking a dump on the mayor's car in front of City Hall, okay, and nothing would happen to you. But if you walk down the street with a MAGA hat, you're gonna get attacked. Yeah, it's insane. It's insane. It's also so Orwellian that a hat that says 'Make America Great Again' would cause people to have a violent reaction. Like, aren't you American? Wouldn't that be a good thing for everyone? Make America great again. But because it's attached to Donald Trump and that red hat, you'll get maced for wearing that red hat. They will make America worse by beating you. So it's like an evil thing they're doing, a violent assault in America because you want to make America great again. I mean, it's like a scene in a book. It doesn't seem like it could be that ridiculous. Remember when 'All Lives Matter' would get you fired, which is insane. People got fired because they said 'All Lives Matter,' which is a very reasonable thing to say. How reasonable is that? Yes, that's essentially saying everybody matters. But that's not what you were supposed to say. You had to say 'Black Lives Matter,' which of course they do. If you say 'All Lives Matter,' everybody matters. Yes, but the idea of being a colorblind society was completely abandoned somewhere around 2012-ish. I mean, I sort of can trace it to when the gun emoji got nerfed, you know? When did it turn into a squirt gun? That was a couple of years ago, that was like 2016, I think. Was it? Yeah, yeah, it became a squirt gun. Can you bring it back on X? Yeah, no, right now if you use a gun emoji on X, Apple will insist that it be a squirt gun, and then the X app turns it back into a 1911. Oh, really? Yeah, oh, that's great. So you can actually have a 1911 gun. We reverted the Apple change inside the app. Oh, that's hilarious. That's hilarious that that thing's so offensive, the gun, and then the pregnant man, both of those got me. I like that meme where it's like the people telling you that what you're hearing is disinformation are the same people that did the pregnant man emoji. Yes, think about that. Yeah, well, also the same people that say a woman attacked a Tesla factory. Yeah, the woman, it's a dude. It's a dude, like really obvious dude, really big, mentally ill dude. Yeah, mentally ill dude with a wig on. Say that. Yes, but NBC even, you're looking at the picture, a woman? Yo, this is a dude with a wrong jawline, okay? He's wearing woman's face. It's a buff dude. Yeah, it's a buff dude wearing woman's face. I mean, come on, that's not a woman. Yeah, and they're like, watch out for disinformation. I'm like, what are you talking about? It's so crazy. This is just more evidence of the virus, though, right? It killed objectivity, killed reality, and it demanded strict adherence or you were attacked. Yeah, yeah, any questioning of it would result in being ostracized.

你喜欢吗，什么样的责任？知道如果你没有接管 Twitter 并把它变成 X，如果那没有发生，我真的认为世界现在会非常不同。你拥有它多久了？几年。基本上，想象一下它像以前那样运行几年，而且可能还在加速。我的账号早就被禁了，肯定的。是的，肯定的。就因为虚假信息。是的。特朗普永远不会回来。亚历克斯·琼斯肯定永远不会回来，绝对不会。不，不。所以，是的。这让你感到沉重吗？我会觉得那是一个沉重的责任。是的。我是说，我只是在努力维持文明。

Do you like, what kind of responsibility do you like, knowing that if you didn't take over Twitter and turn it into X, if that didn't happen, I really think the world's a very different place right now. Like, how long have you owned it for? A couple years. Basically, imagine a couple years of it being run the way it was run before, and probably accelerating. My account would have been suspended long ago, for sure. Yeah, for sure. Just for the disinformation. Yeah. It would have been, Trump would have never come back. Alex Jones would have definitely never been back, definitely not. No, no. So, yeah. Does that weigh on you? Like, I would feel like that would be a heavy responsibility. Yeah. I mean, I'm just trying to keep civilization.

我认为我们至少要在火星上建造一座城市，成为多行星文明，这对确保文明的长期存续至关重要。

I think we at least want to build a city on Mars and become a multiplanet civilization, which I think would be incredibly important in ensuring the long-term survival of civilization.

你还在救那些被困在空间站的人吗？

Are you still rescuing those people that are stuck in the space station?

是的，大概几周后吧。

Yeah, that's coming up in a couple weeks, I think.

哇，他们在上面待了多久？Jamie，他们本来只该待几天的，对吧？

Whoa, they've been up there for how long? Jamie, they were supposed to be there for a couple days, right?

实际上大概四周了。哦，他们本来只该待八天，结果已经待了八个月，比预期长了一点。

I think actually probably like four weeks. Oh, they were supposed to be up there for like eight days, yeah, and they've been up there for like I think eight months, so a little longer than expected.

他们回来后会怎么样？会很久都恢复不了吧？

What is it going to be like for those people when they get back? They're going to be a wreck for a long time, right?

是的，在太空待久了骨质流失会加剧。所以这成了政治皮球，争议很大。我们提出早点接他们回来，但拜登政府出于政治原因拒绝了。

Yeah, as long as you stay up there, you get increased bone loss. So it ended up being like this political football, a hotly contested topic. We offered to bring them back early, but this offer was rejected by the Biden Administration for political reasons.

太疯狂了。他们绝不可能让任何支持特朗普的人好看。

That's so crazy. There's no way that they're going to make anyone who's supporting Trump look good.

哇，你觉得如果他们赢了会怎么做？

Wow, what do you think they would have done if they had won?

嗯，把那些人接回来。不，他们只能用 SpaceX 的飞船接他们回来。但他们把返回日期推到了就职典礼之后。哇，所以他们会让你做，但要在那之后。

Well, get those people back. No, they can only get them back with a SpaceX spacecraft. But they pushed the return date past the inauguration date. Wow, so they would have let you do it, but after the wow.

所以会是他们授权你？

And so it would have been them authorizing you?

没有其他人能做。NASA 接不了他们。只有 SpaceX 的龙飞船被认为足够安全能接他们回来。NASA 认定波音的飞船不安全，所以他们才被困在那里。

There isn't anyone else to do it. NASA can't get them. The only SpaceX Dragon spacecraft is the only one that is considered safe enough to bring them back. NASA concluded that the Boeing spacecraft was not safe, so that's why they're stuck there.

天哪。你也不能找俄罗斯帮忙，那会很尴尬。

Holy yeah. And you can't ask Russia to help, that would be awkward.

有点。如果他们帮忙就好了。他们会说‘伙计们，我们来帮你们’。我觉得给够钱他们会帮的。

A little bit, yeah. It'd be a nice thing if they did. They said 'guys, we'll help you.' I think for enough money they would.

你这么想？

You think so?

是的，但他们显然会把它当作宣传胜利，并收取天价费用。他们把它当作政治工具，真恶心。

Yeah, but they would obviously treat it as a propaganda victory and charge crazy money. It's just disgusting that they would use that as a political tool.

是的。拜登政府还在起诉 SpaceX。他们因为 SpaceX 没有雇佣寻求庇护者而提起大规模诉讼。所以有人说‘哦，Elon 在编造，这届政府并没有针对 SpaceX’。我说，兄弟，司法部对 SpaceX 提起了大规模诉讼，因为我们没有雇佣寻求庇护者，尽管雇佣非永久居民是非法的。所以这里存在矛盾：一方面有法律要求你必须雇佣寻求庇护者，另一方面又有法律规定火箭公司（属于先进武器技术）的员工必须是永久居民。而寻求庇护者不是永久居民。所以雇佣寻求庇护者既合法又非法。那么拜登政府为什么要提起大规模诉讼？这是公开信息，不是我的想象。他们为什么对 SpaceX 提起如此大规模的诉讼？他们极其敌对。这根本说不通，哪怕第一天有人看一眼就该驳回。如果它既非法你又试图执行，你无法执行。是的，这是一家先进武器公司。这太疯狂了。应该被驳回。实际上有《国际武器贸易条例》，这是一项法律，确保只有美国永久居民才能在先进武器公司工作。火箭是先进武器。核武器、生物武器等也是如此。因为如果有人为 SpaceX 工作后去了朝鲜或伊朗，他们可以建造导弹技术摧毁美国。所以这就是为什么你不能雇佣非永久居民。合乎逻辑。

Yeah. The Biden Administration was also suing SpaceX. They had this massive lawsuit against SpaceX for not hiring asylum seekers. So people say 'oh, Elon's making it up, this administration wasn't against SpaceX.' I'm like, bro, the Department of Justice had a massive lawsuit against SpaceX for not hiring asylum seekers, even though it is illegal for us to hire anyone who is not a permanent resident. So it is both: there's a law that says you have to hire asylum seekers, but there's also a law that says anyone hired by a rocket company, which is an advanced weapons technology, must be a permanent resident. And an asylum seeker is not a permanent resident. So it is both legal and illegal to hire asylum seekers. So why would the Biden Administration launch a massive lawsuit? This is public information, it's not like my imagination. Why would they launch such a massive lawsuit against SpaceX? They're extremely antagonistic. It just doesn't make any sense that that could ever even get past the first day of someone looking at it. If it's both illegal and you're trying to enforce it, you can't enforce it. Yes, this is an advanced weapons company. This is crazy. It should be thrown out. There's the International Traffic in Arms Regulations, a law that ensures only permanent residents of the United States can work at advanced weapons companies. Rockets are advanced weapons. The same is true for nuclear, bioweapons, or something like that. Because if someone were to work at SpaceX and then go to North Korea or Iran, they could build missile technology that could destroy the United States. So that's why you're not allowed to hire people who are not permanent residents. Logical.

那个诉讼还在进行吗？

So is that lawsuit still pending?

刚刚被驳回了。

It was just dismissed.

持续了多久？

How long was it going on for?

几年。

A couple years.

天哪。这让我抓狂。人们不明白，如果你纵容这种法律战，如果你纵容攻击政治敌人，总有一天别人也会这样对你。如果错误的人上台，四年后、八年后新的人上台，谁知道会是谁。你已经开了先例。你已经攻击了一个人，指控他 34 项重罪，而实际上只是轻罪，而且已经过了诉讼时效。现在你在新闻上到处说他是‘被定罪的重罪犯’。他们不停地说‘被定罪的重罪犯，被定罪的重罪犯’，每个人都知道是怎么回事。是的，太可怕了。他们能如此厚颜无耻地对待一个当了四年总统的人，太可怕了。

Holy yeah. That's the other thing that drives me crazy. People don't understand that if you sanction lawfare like that, if you sanction attacking your political enemies, someone's going to do that to you. If the wrong people get in office, if new people get in office four years from now, eight years from now, who knows who it's going to be. You've already set a precedent. You've already attacked someone, charged them with 34 felonies where they're really just misdemeanors and they've passed the statute of limitations. And now you're talking all over the news that this is a convicted felon. They kept saying 'convicted felon, convicted felon,' and everybody knows what it is. Yes, it's terrifying. It's terrifying they could do it so brazenly to a guy who was the president for four years.

那个诉讼是由 Reid Hoffman 资助的，他是主要的民主党捐赠者，也是 FD 客户。情节变得复杂了。

That lawsuit was funded by Reid Hoffman, who is a major Democratic donor and also an FD client. The plot thickens.

情节变得复杂了。天哪。是的，太明目张胆了，太明显了。SpaceX 的诉讼，特朗普的事，都太明显了。是的，已知的 FD 客户，显然极其强大，政治上和财富上都如此。比尔·克林顿、Reid Hoffman，还有其他几个，但主要是这三个。那么为什么 Reid Hoffman 如此执着于摧毁特朗普？你觉得是因为他们担心名单曝光吗？

The plot thickens. Jesus Christ. Yes, it's just so blatant, it's so obvious. The SpaceX lawsuit, the Trump stuff, it's just so obvious. Yes, known FD clients who are obviously extremely powerful, politically and very wealthy. Bill Clinton, Reid Hoffman, and some others, but those three. So why was Reid Hoffman so intent on destroying Trump? Do you think it's because they're worried about the list coming out?

是的，原因之一。所以身处名单不公开的处境非常令人沮丧。

Yeah, one of the reasons. So it's so frustrating to be sitting in the situation where the list isn't coming out.

嗯，最好公开。我是说，希望明天。他们为什么今天发布？我不知道。给这些人一个空文件夹在镜头前挥舞有什么意义？一点新内容都没有。这说不通。不鼓舞人心。就像我说的，他们面临的困境是，他们成了一艘充满敌意船员的船的船长。他们没有魔法。你成了一艘充满敌意船员的船的船长，你仍然有敌意的船员。你必须引进有帮助的人，而不是阻挠者。但我认为，如果没有人因 FD 客户名单被起诉，公众会非常失望。一个都没有。至少前五名之类的。至少应该尝试起诉最严重的违法者。特别是如果 Ghislaine Maxwell 因性贩卖入狱。是的，因为性贩卖发生了。她因此入狱。那么客户是谁？

Well, it better come out. I mean, hopefully tomorrow. Why would they release today? I don't know. What's the point in giving these people a happy folder to wave around in front of the camera with nothing in it that's new? Doesn't make any sense. It's not encouraging. Like I said, the tough thing that they've got is they've been made captain of a ship with a hostile crew. So they don't have magical powers. You get made captain of a ship with a hostile crew, you still have a hostile crew. You've got to bring in people who are going to be helpful as opposed to obstructionist. But I think the public will be right frustrated if no one is prosecuted for the FD client list. No one at all. At least the top five or something. There should at least be an attempted prosecution of the worst offenders. Particularly if Ghislaine Maxwell is in jail for sex trafficking. Yes, because sex trafficking occurred. She's in jail for it. So who are the clients?

是的，你怎么……

Yeah, how do you...

把人关进监狱，你连客户名字都不提？这听起来有点离谱。

Put someone in jail and you don't even name the clients? That sounds kind of insane.

是的，会。因为他们能隐瞒这么久，真是令人震惊。这真的很了不起。当人们说没人能保守秘密时，你在说什么？看看这个。很多事情都是常识，但我们实际上没有证据。证据就在那里。有很多视频。就像一座证据山。当他们突袭爱泼斯坦的住所时，应该有一座证据山。那座山在哪里？你们怎么处理了？谁拿走了证据？具体来说，那些个人。录像带在哪里？我需要多少级权限才能进入那个保险库？

Yes, it would. Because it's stunning that they've been able to hold it back for so long. It's really kind of amazing. When people say that people can't keep secrets, what are you talking about? Look at this. A bunch of these things are common knowledge, but we don't actually have the proof. The proof is there. There are lots of videos. It's like a mountain of evidence. When they raided Epstein's place, there would have been a mountain of evidence. Where is that mountain? What did you do with it? Who took possession of the evidence? Specifically, the individuals. Where are the tapes? How many levels of clearance do I have to get to get into the vault?

我们需要非常擅长计算机和技术的人。我记得看到过这张照片，他们突袭了他在岛上的家。他们拿走了所有东西。那个岛上肯定有很多东西。如果不在那里，那在哪里？它一定被上传到了某个地方。必须有一条证据链或监管链。肯定有一座证据山。

We need people who are really good with computers and technology. I remember seeing this photo when they raided his home on the island. They got everything. There must have been so much stuff on that island. If it wasn't there, where was it? It has to be uploaded somewhere. There has to be some chain of evidence or chain of custody. There has to be a mountain of evidence.

他们要谈的另一件事是 UAP。他们会公布所有 UAP 信息。所以你是问这个问题的合适人选。有没有可能某种先进的推进系统技术正在秘密研发，而他们试图用外星人和外星技术的说法来掩盖？有没有可能有一个非常秘密的项目，与国防承包商勾结，为这些无人机开发先进的推进系统？

The other thing they're going to talk about is UAPs. They're going to release all the UAP information. So you're the guy to ask about this. What possibility is there that there is some sort of advanced propulsion system technology being worked on in secret, and that they're trying to cover this up with talk of aliens and alien tech? Is it possible that there's some very secret program in cahoots with defense contractors developing advanced propulsion systems for these drones?

SpaceX 拥有世界上最先进的火箭技术。我想我知道。据我所知，那里没有什么魔法。没有什么超级先进的推进技术。有人提出过不同的重力驱动理论，但从未超出理论阶段。甚至理论上都不成立。我想说清楚，我希望这种东西存在。我有最高机密权限，相当于全能通行证。我不认为他们对我隐瞒。我不认为他们能隐瞒，除非它完全在这些武器制造公司内部。我了解这些公司，比如波音、洛克希德、诺斯罗普。他们做了一些有趣的事情，但他们没有突破。我确信他们没有突破。

SpaceX has the most advanced rocket technology in the world. I think I'd know. To the best of my knowledge, there is not any magic there. There's not some super advanced propulsion technology. There have been people who theorized different gravity drives, but nothing has ever gotten past the theoretical stage. Nothing even works in theory. I would like this to exist, to be clear. I have top secret clearance, equivalent to an all-access pass. I don't think they're hiding it from me. I don't think they could, unless it's completely within these weapons manufacturing corporations. I know these companies like Boeing, Lockheed, Northrop. They do some interesting things, but they do not have a breakthrough. I'm confident they do not have a breakthrough.

当你听到有人说，为什么不和 SpaceX 竞争，造出更好的火箭？他们可以用更好的火箭击败 SpaceX 赚很多钱。我的想法是，如果它只是一个无人机，里面不能有生物实体，因为速度会导致它爆裂？人类无法承受那种力量，所以它们只是无人机。

When you hear people like, why not compete with SpaceX and make a better rocket? They could make a lot of money beating SpaceX with better rockets. My thought was, what if it's just a drone and you can't have a biological entity inside because it bursts from the speed? A human couldn't tolerate the force, so they're just drones.

我不这么认为。

I don't think so.

你觉得像 Ryan Graves 和 David Fravor 指挥官这样的人看到了什么？我希望酷的东西存在。我希望 UFO 存在吗？是的，因为那会非常有趣。没有 UFO 的世界更无聊。我希望它存在。我希望我们能找到什么。但我什么都没看到。SpaceX 发射了 90%的卫星质量到轨道。中国约占 5%，世界其他地区，包括波音、洛克希德等，占 5%。他们为什么不用这个来击败 SpaceX？

What do you think people like Ryan Graves and Commander David Fravor are seeing? I want cool things to exist. Do I want UFOs to exist? Yes, because that would be really interesting. It's a more boring world where UFOs don't exist. I'd like it to exist. I hope we find something. But I have not seen anything. SpaceX launches 90% of all satellite mass to orbit. China does about 5%, and the rest of the world, including Boeing, Lockheed, and everyone, does 5%. Why wouldn't they use this to defeat SpaceX?

这就是我问你的原因。这说得通。

That's why I asked you. It would make sense.

你觉得这些人看到了什么？当你有像 David Fravor 指挥官这样可靠的人，他在圣地亚哥海岸外有过那次臭名昭著的 Tic Tac 经历，他们用视频拍到了这个东西。他们追踪到它从海平面以上 5 万英尺在一秒钟内下降到 50 英尺。他们还有视频证据显示这个东西以极快速度加速，以及两架不同喷气式飞机的目击者证词。有人有这个东西的高清视频或照片吗？有一个视频，他们锁定了它，然后它飞出了画面。2004 年战斗机使用的系统可能像 Windows 95 一样。有人画了一条 UFO 分辨率和相机分辨率的曲线。尽管像素变得超高，UFO 分辨率却保持不变。据在国务院工作过的 Christopher Mellon 说，他说他们有这些东西的高清照片和视频，但都被锁起来了。每当有人这样对我说，别告诉我。看在上帝的份上，泄露出来吧。把它放出来。让它泄露出去。

What do you think these people are seeing? When you have reliable people like Commander David Fravor, who had that infamous Tic Tac experience off the coast of San Diego, they got this thing on video. They tracked it going from 50,000 feet above sea level to 50 feet in like a second. They also have video evidence of this thing accelerating at great speed, eyewitness accounts from two different jets. Does anybody have a high-res video or photo of this thing? There's a video where they're locked onto it and it shoots off frame. The systems they used on fighter jets in 2004 were potentially like Windows 95. Someone did a curve of the resolution of UFOs and cameras. UFO resolution has stayed flat despite megapixels going super high. According to Christopher Mellon, who worked in the State Department, he said they have high-resolution photos and videos of these things, but it's all locked away. Whenever people say that to me, don't even tell me that. Just leak it, for God's sake. Put it out there. Let it slip.

有几张照片，但很模糊。我从来没有看过任何东西然后说，‘天哪，就是这个。这就是我一直在找的。’你现在可以问我们的 Grok AI，让它生成一张奥斯汀上空外星飞船的高清图像，它会做得很好。那我们为什么至少没有那个？

There are a couple photos, but they're grainy. There's not one thing that I've ever looked at and gone, 'Holy, that's it. That's what I've been looking for.' You could ask our Grok AI right now to create a high-res image of an alien spacecraft over Austin, and it's going to do a great job. So why don't we have at least that?

我想相信。这就是问题所在。我的大脑开始想，‘哦，拜托，这不好玩。’我希望它是真的。我希望至少有一些先进的推进系统。如果不是，那这些人都在看什么？如果我们没有被足够聪明能隐藏的东西偶尔访问，那可能我们就是。这些外星人非常微妙。

I want to believe. That's the problem. My brain starts going, 'Oh, come on, this is no fun.' I want it to be real. I want there to be at least some advanced propulsion system. If not, what are all these people seeing? If we're not being occasionally visited by things that are smart enough to hide, we might be. These aliens are very subtle.

你一直这么说。这是个好说法。这是个扎实的说法，因为它相当准确。我只是想看一些外星人的高清视频。他们是怎么避开所有摄像头的？你拍到的那些只是远处奇怪移动的光，可能有很多种可能。

You keep saying that. It's a good line. It's a solid line because it's pretty accurate. I just want to see some high-res video of aliens. How are they evading all the cameras? The ones you do get are just some faraway light moving weirdly, and it could be a lot of things.

愿意相信吗？是的，我的意思是，有好几次空军和海军给 SpaceX 打电话，说他们觉得看到了外星人，我们就问：‘是不是在这个时间、这个州、这个地点？’他们说：‘是的。’‘你怎么知道那是我们？’这种情况发生过很多次。那是我们的卫星。那是我们的卫星。他们说：‘不，不是你们的。’我说：‘对对对，绝对是我们的卫星。’哦，是的，人们经常看到 SpaceX 的卫星飞过。是的，那是我们的卫星，它们以每小时 16000 英里的速度移动，所以非常快。而且美国政府也有一些东西被误认为是 UFO。我记得第一次看到隐形轰炸机的时候。我们在拍《恐惧因素》，那是 2003 年之后，战争刚爆发不久，他们在帕姆代尔飞了一架隐形轰炸机。我当时想：‘天哪，如果我不知道那是什么，我百分之百会认为那是来自另一个世界的东西。’当你看到它时，很酷，很酷，是的，真的很酷。我的意思是，它看起来不像人类的东西。它看起来像《太空堡垒卡拉狄加》里的东西。它确实看起来很厉害。我的意思是，顺便说一句，它们对任何先进的雷达系统都不是隐形的。它不再起作用了。它不起作用了。不，那是老式的东西。它们只对老式雷达隐形。哦，好吧。我的意思是，你仍然可以看到它们。它们不是隐形的，对吧？对，它不像《星际迷航》里的隐形装置。

Want to believe? Yeah, I mean, there have been multiple times where the Air Force and Navy have called SpaceX and said they think they've seen aliens, and we're like, 'Was it at this time, in this state, in this location?' They're like, 'Yes.' 'How do you know that's us?' There's been a lot of that. Those are our satellites. Those are our satellites. They're like, 'No, they're not.' I'm like, 'Yeah, yeah, they're definitely our satellites.' Oh yeah, people see the SpaceX satellites all the time whizzing by. Yeah, they're our satellites, and they are moving at 16,000 miles per hour, so it's pretty fast. And there's also stuff that the United States government does have that gets mistaken for UFOs. I remember the first time I saw a stealth bomber. We were filming Fear Factor, it was right after 2003, right after the war had broken out, and they were flying a stealth bomber down in Palmdale. I was like, 'Holy... if I didn't know what that was, I would 100% think that's from another world.' When you see it, cool, cool, yeah, really cool. I mean, it doesn't look like a human thing. It looks like something from Battlestar Galactica. It does look awesome. I mean, they're not stealthy against any advanced radar system, by the way. It doesn't work anymore. It doesn't work. No, it's old school stuff. They're only stealthy against old radars. Oh, okay. I mean, you can still see them. They're not invisible, right? Right, it's not like a cloaking device from Star Trek.

你看到我和 Lex 一起看火箭被捕获的直播了吗？那对我来说是……真正看到它……我看过它发生的视频，但真正看到直播是最酷的事情之一。你会觉得：‘哇，我们活在未来。’对吧？我的意思是，没有其他人能做到这一点。是的，这是真的。没有其他人能做到这一点。这是事实。是的，这太疯狂了。因为我是外星人。是时候了……我是外星人，我一直试图告诉人们我是外星人，但他们不相信我。

Did you see when me and Lex watched the rocket get caught live while it was happening? That to me was one of the... to see it actually... I've seen videos of it happen, but to see it actually live was one of the coolest things. You're like, 'Wow, we are in the future.' Right? I mean, nobody else can do that. Yeah, it's true. Nobody else can do that. That's fact. Yeah, it's pretty wild. It's 'cause I'm an alien. It's time you... I'm an alien, and I keep trying to tell people I'm an alien, but they don't believe me.

我相信你。好的，谢谢。我相信你。我一直怀疑你是个友好的外星人。就像，外星人没什么不好。我喜欢来自任何地方的人，是的，甚至其他星球。

I believe you. Okay, thank you. I believe you. That's been my suspicion all along, that you're a friendly alien. Like, there's nothing wrong with aliens. I like people from everywhere, yeah, even other planets.

接下来是什么？既然你能抓住火箭，火箭技术的终极体现是什么？这之后会是什么？

What's next? Now that you can catch rockets, what's the ultimate expression of rocket technology? What comes after this?

嗯，我们在 SpaceX 追求的根本性突破是一种完全且快速可重复使用的轨道火箭，其中两级都完全且快速可重复使用。使用我们的猎鹰火箭，我们能够重复使用主级和鼻锥，但无法重复使用上级。而且从主级着陆到再次飞行，至少需要几天时间。所以它并不是完全可重复使用的，因为我们失去了上级，而上级的建造成本为 1000 万美元。而且主级的可重复使用性不如飞机；你不能简单地给它加油然后飞行。它需要几天的维护工作。但星舰设计是第一个能够实现完全且快速可重复使用的设计，这是可能的结果之一。一旦你实现了完全且快速的可重复使用，进入太空的成本将下降 100 倍。也就是便宜 100 倍。根据某些指标，甚至便宜 1000 倍。而且当你考虑到轨道加注，即在轨道上加油时，每吨货物运送到火星表面的成本可以下降 10000 倍。

Well, the fundamental breakthrough we're aiming for at SpaceX is a fully and rapidly reusable orbital rocket where both stages are fully and rapidly reusable. With our Falcon rocket, we are able to reuse the main stage and the nose cone, but we're not able to reuse the upper stage. And it still takes us at least a few days from when the main stage lands to when we can fly again. So it's not fully reusable because we lose the upper stage, which costs $10 million to build. And the main stage is not as reusable as an aircraft; you can't just refuel it and fly it. It requires work for a couple of days. But the Starship design is the first design that is capable of full and rapid reusability, where that is one of the possible outcomes. Once you have full and rapid reusability, the cost of access to space drops by a factor of 100. It's like 100 times cheaper. By some metrics, it's a thousand times cheaper. And when you factor in orbital refilling, so you refill on orbit, it can drop the cost per ton to the surface of Mars by a factor of 10,000.

哇，是的。那么要实现可重复使用，需要改进什么？

Whoa, yeah. So what has to improve in order to make it reusable?

嗯，我们已经非常接近能够快速重复使用星舰的助推器了。这就是为什么它回来并被机械臂抓住，然后机械臂把它放回发射台。现在，我们仍然有一些发动机损坏，一些隔热罩损坏。需要做一些调整，但我们非常接近实现助推器的完全且快速可重复使用。至于飞船，我认为我们今年将实现飞船的可重复使用，并且我认为明年我们将实现整个堆栈（飞船和助推器）的快速可重复使用。这是生命成为多行星物种所需的根本性突破。

Well, we're pretty close to being able to rapidly reuse the booster for Starship. That's why it comes back and gets caught by the arms, and then the arms place it back on the launch mount. Now, we still have a little bit of engine damage, a little bit of heat shield damage. There are tweaks that are needed, but we're pretty close to achieving full and rapid reusability of the booster. The ship, I think we'll achieve reusability of the ship this year, and I think we'll achieve rapid reusability of the whole stack, ship and booster, next year. This is the fundamental breakthrough required for life to become multiplanetary.

要实现可重复使用，需要改进什么？现在有什么问题？

What needs to improve in order to make it reusable? What's wrong with it right now?

在飞船方面，最棘手的问题是隔热罩。从来没有人开发过完全可重复使用的轨道隔热罩。因为当你从轨道速度返回时，你会像一颗燃烧的流星一样进入。你就是一个狂暴的火球。很难有一个隔热罩不会在这个过程中部分熔化或损坏。这不是我们在猎鹰 9 号上能够解决的问题；这就是为什么上级在再入时会烧毁。对于星舰，飞船部分，我们必须解决制造完全可重复使用的轨道隔热罩的问题，这是一个从未被解决过的问题。有一段时间，我想：‘我不确定这是否可以解决。’在这一点上，我认为它是可以解决的。它需要对隔热罩瓦片进行详细的迭代。我们已经垂直整合了隔热罩瓦片的制造，因为没有供应商能够提供所需的材料。你需要制造这种非常精细的玻璃和氧化铝纤维的编织物。氧化铝基本上就是蓝宝石。所以它就像玻璃和蓝宝石，非常精细的纤维，具有完全正确的几何形状，并带有特殊涂层，以便隔热罩瓦片可重复使用，不会熔化，但又不会太脆以至于在上升或下降过程中损坏。它有点像咖啡杯的脆性。而火箭在剧烈震动。你亲眼看到了。想象一下你在火箭的震中；当你在 5 英里外时，你都能感觉到它有多大的震动。想象一下如果你就在那里。所以你在震动这些像咖啡杯一样脆的东西，试图不让它们破裂或断裂，同时又不让它们熔化。你有几千个这样的东西。即使其中几个破裂，它就不能重复使用了。

On the ship side, the toughest problem is the heat shield. No one has ever developed a fully reusable orbital heat shield. Because when you come in from orbital velocity, you come in like a flaming meteor. You're just a raging ball of fire. And it's hard to have a heat shield that doesn't partially melt or get destroyed in that process. That wasn't a problem we were able to solve with Falcon 9; that's why the upper stage burns up on re-entry. With Starship, the ship portion, we have to solve making a fully reusable orbital heat shield, a problem that has never been solved before. For a while, I was like, 'I'm not sure this is solvable.' At this point, I think it is solvable. It requires detailed iteration on the heat shield tiles. We've vertically integrated the manufacturing of the heat shield tiles because there was no supplier that could provide us with the materials that were needed. You need to make essentially this very fine verelli of glass and aluminum oxide fibers. Aluminum oxide is basically sapphire. So it's like glass and sapphire, very fine fibers in exactly the right geometry, with special coatings, in order to have the heat shield tile be reusable, not melt, but not be so brittle that it gets damaged on ascent or descent. It's kind of like the brittleness of a coffee cup. And the rocket is shaking like hell. You saw it firsthand. Imagine you're at ground zero of that rocket; you feel how much shaking it was when you're 5 miles away. Imagine if you're right there. So you're shaking these things that are as brittle as a coffee cup, trying not to have them crack or break, and then not have them melt. You have several thousand of these things. If even a few of them break, it's not reusable.

SpaceX 在材料技术方面是否有创新，你们是否在不断地寻找和调整更好的版本？

Is there innovation being done in the materials technology at SpaceX where you're constantly trying to find and tweak a better version of this?

是的，这是一个非常困难的问题。从来没有人解决过它。

Yes, it's a very difficult problem. No one has ever solved it.

你必须找到精确的材料组合，正确的分子形状，然后完美地将隔热罩应用到火箭上，不能有任何差错。这个问题以前没人解决是有原因的，它非常困难。所以我们不得不垂直整合从基础原材料到成品隔热瓦的整个制造过程，重建从基础原材料开始的整个供应链。你只需要输入硅和铝的氧化物。

You've got to get the exact right materials combination, the right molecules in the right shape, and then apply that heat shield perfectly to the rocket with no mistakes. There's a reason that no one solved this before; it's a very difficult problem. So we had to vertically integrate the entire manufacturing of the tile from basic raw materials to a finished tile, rebuild the entire supply chain from basic raw materials. So you're just inputting silicon and aluminum oxides.

你们的方法和航天飞机过去的方法有什么不同？

What is the difference between the way you guys do it versus the way they used to do it for the space shuttle?

嗯，航天飞机使用了相当致密的碳-碳隔热瓦。它们又厚又重，而且容易开裂。发生的事情是泡沫脱落，击中隔热瓦，导致隔热瓦开裂。然后在再入时，开裂或破损的隔热瓦无法保护航天飞机，等离子体进入，融化了主结构，整个航天飞机解体了。所以你不能有像航天飞机隔热瓦那样脆的东西。

Well, the space shuttle used quite dense carbon-carbon tiles. They were thick and heavy, but also subject to cracking. What happened is the foam broke off, hit the tile, cracked the tile. Then on entry, the cracked or broken tiles weren't able to shield the shuttle, so the plasma got in, melted the primary structure, and the whole shuttle broke apart. So you can't have something that's as brittle as the space shuttle tiles.

有那段录像，对吧？

There's footage of that, right?

是的，碎片遍布全美国。他们几乎找回了所有碎片。完整的技术解释大概只有六个人能听懂。航天飞机隔热瓦有很多出色的工程设计，而且很多隔热材料甚至不是瓦片，实际上是二氧化硅毯子，基本上就像毛毡毯子。如果你仔细看，会发现有些地方其实是隔热毯，而不是瓦片。但他们的瓦片会开裂，偶尔还会脱落。有过几次险情，瓦片脱落了，但不在特别脆弱的位置。所以每次飞行之间，他们需要花好几个月，比如八九个月，来翻新航天飞机。所以它并不是真正可重复使用的，当然也不快速。

Yeah, and debris over the whole United States. They got almost all the pieces. The full technical explanation would be understood by about six people listening to this. There was a lot of brilliant engineering in the space shuttle tiles, and a bunch of the heat shielding wasn't even tiles; it was actually silica blankets, like felt blankets essentially. If you look closely, you'll see they're actually heat blankets, not tiles, in some areas. But they would have cracked tiles, and occasionally tiles would fall off. There were a few close calls where tiles fell off but weren't in a super vulnerable position. So it would take them several months, like eight or nine months, to refurbish a space shuttle between each flight. So it wasn't really reusable, and certainly wasn't rapid.

所以这是一个非常困难的问题。

So it's a very hard problem.

是的。你还必须以某种方式固定隔热瓦，让下面的结构能够移动、膨胀和收缩，尽管这些隔热瓦非常坚硬。主燃料箱装有低温推进剂，注入低温推进剂时会收缩，但再入时变得非常热，又会膨胀。所以你在收缩和膨胀这些刚性隔热瓦之间的间隙。间隙变化多大？取决于你在飞行器的哪个位置。如果在低温燃料箱段，间隙变化可达 10-20%。这相当显著。你不能简单地把隔热瓦挤在一起；如果它们紧挨着，就会因为移动太大而全部开裂。还有一定程度的机身弯曲。当飞船上升时，发动机转向会产生一点移动。所以如果隔热瓦靠得太近，它们就会开裂和断裂。你必须留出间隙，就像机翼会移动，机身也会移动一样。但如果间隙太大，热量就会穿过隔热瓦，熔化结构。

Yes. You've also got to attach the tiles in a way that enables the structure underneath to move, to expand and contract, even though you've got these very rigid tiles. The main tanks, which take on cryogenic propellant, will contract when you put in the cryogenic propellant, but then when you come in and get very hot, they will expand. So you're contracting and expanding the gap between these rigid tiles. How much? It varies depending on where you are on the vehicle. If you're in the cryogenic tank section, you can see a 10-20% difference in the gap. It's pretty significant. You can't just jam the tiles together; if you butted them up, they would all crack because there's too much movement. There's also some amount of body bending. As the ship is ascending, when the engines steer, there's a little bit of movement. So if the tiles are too close together, they'll crack and snap. You have to have a gap, like a plane wing will move, a plane body will move too. But if you have too much of a gap, then the heat gets past the tile and melts the structure.

这些隔热瓦有多大？

How large are these tiles?

它们大约这么大。并不完全一样大，但大致是六边形。你不能 3D 打印整个东西；不能只有一个结构；必须是瓦片，因为它需要能够移动。没有那么大尺寸的 3D 打印机，而且你也不想要；你需要能够弯曲的东西。所以有膨胀和收缩。你注入液氧，温度大约零下 300 华氏度，实际上我们过冷到零下 330 华氏度，所以非常冷。然后再入时可能达到几百甚至一千华氏度。所以温度变化巨大。热膨胀很大，再加上机身弯曲。你必须考虑最坏情况的机身弯曲和热膨胀/收缩。这是一个非常困难的问题。

They're about that big. They're not all exactly the same size, but they're sort of hexagonal tiles. You can't 3D print the whole thing; you can't have one structure; it has to be tiles because it has to have that ability to move. There's no 3D printer that big, and you wouldn't want to anyway; you have to have something that can flex. So you have expansion and contraction. You're putting in liquid oxygen, which is about -300 degrees Fahrenheit, actually we subcool it to -330 degrees Fahrenheit, so it's very cold. And then it will be several hundred degrees, maybe a thousand degrees Fahrenheit, potentially on re-entry. So you have this huge temperature swing. The thermal expansion is substantial, combined with body bending. You have to take the worst-case body bending and thermal expansion/contraction. This was a very hard problem.

微妙的平衡。但你现在有信心你们能解决这个问题吗？

Delicate balance. But you're confident that you guys are going to be able to crack it at this point?

我相信这是可以解决的。只是需要一定数量的版本迭代。这就是为什么当这些东西爆炸时，你会说，是的，我们预料到它们会爆炸。真正有帮助的是让飞船返回，这样我们就可以研究哪里出现了开裂或脱落的隔热瓦。为什么会有开裂的隔热瓦？是因为间隙太大还是太小？也许隔热瓦之间有高度差。也许我们需要改变化学成分。如果我们能让该死的飞船完好无损地返回，我们就能更好地迭代。我们会让它完好无损地返回。我认为今年就能做到。我们可能会在今年某个时候回收飞船，然后经过相当多的工作，可能在今年年底前再次飞行。但我们需要很多次迭代才能实现快速可重复使用，即飞船返回、着陆、像助推器一样被机械臂抓住，然后机械臂把它放在助推器顶部，再次发射。这将把进入太空的成本降低 100 倍。

I'm confident that it is solvable. It just needs a certain number of versions. That's why when these things blow up, you're like, yeah, we expect them to blow up. What would be really helpful is for us to get the ship back so we can study where we had cracked tiles or lost tiles. Why did we have a cracked tile? Was it because the gap was too big or too small? Maybe there was a height difference between the tiles. Maybe we need to change the chemical composition. If we can get the damn ship back intact, we can iterate a lot better. We'll get it back intact. I think we'll get it back intact this year. We'll probably recover the ship sometime this year, and then we might be able to refly one with a fair bit of work by the end of this year. But it's going to take us many iterations before we can achieve rapid reusability, where the ship comes back, lands, gets caught like the booster with the arms, and then the arms place it on top of the booster and it launches again. That will reduce the cost of access to space by a factor of 100.

让那些被困在空间站的人返回的过程是怎样的？

What is the process of returning these people that are stuck in the space station?

我们一直向空间站发送 SpaceX 的龙飞船。我们已经将超过 50 名宇航员送入轨道并返回。所以这只是执行的问题。

We send SpaceX Dragon to the space station all the time. We've now taken people to orbit and back, over 50 astronauts. So it's just a matter of doing it.

只是等待的问题吗？基本上我们已经常规化操作了？

Is it a matter of waiting? We do it routinely basically?

我们已经这样做了几年了。

We've been doing this for a few years.

这次救援任务什么时候发射？

When is this rescue mission going to launch?

大概四周左右，取决于天气和其他因素。

Probably about four weeks or so, depending on weather and other factors.

我们跳过你已经有了这些规模、可重复使用的飞船并且一切就绪的阶段。接下来是什么步骤？在那之后下一步是什么？是无人前往火星吗？

Let's take it past the point where you have these scales, you have a reusable ship, and you've got it dialed in. Then what are the steps? What's the next step after that? Is it an unmanned voyage to Mars?

首先无人飞往火星。地球和火星的轨道每两年同步一次，严格来说是每 26 个月。下一次轨道同步是明年 11 月，发射窗口大约前后一个月。所以默认计划是希望在明年底发射多艘星舰前往火星。

First unmanned fly to Mars. Earth and Mars orbit synchronize every two years, or every 26 months technically. The next orbital synchronization is November of next year, and you can launch plus minus a month roughly. So the default plan is to launch hopefully several Starships to Mars at the end of next year.

它们会做什么？

What would they be doing?

一开始我们只是尝试在火星着陆，看看能否成功着陆。如果我们能发送五艘飞船，是全部完好着陆，还是给火星添几个坑？如果添了坑，那送人就得更加谨慎。我们必须确保它安全着陆。

At first we're just going to try to land on Mars and see if we succeed in landing. If we were able to send five ships, do all five land intact, or do we add some craters to Mars? If we add some craters, we've got to be a bit more cautious about sending people. We need to make sure the thing lands safely.

它如何在火星着陆？

How does it land on Mars?

用火箭着陆。它会用着陆腿着陆。完全是自主的。火星太远，无法从地球遥控，因为光速限制。最近时火星大约 4 光分远；在太阳另一侧时大约 12 光分。往返最快也要 40 分钟。

With rockets. It'll just land on legs. It will be autonomous, completely autonomous. Mars is too far to remote control from Earth because of speed of light constraints. At closest approach, Mars is roughly four light minutes away; when it's on the other side of the sun, it's about 12 light minutes. Round trip would be like 40 minutes best case.

一旦做到这一点，多久之后开始送人？

Once you do that, how long before you start sending people?

我们会尽可能快地推进。你可以把这看作一场与时间的赛跑：我们能否在文明遭遇某种未来分岔路——比如核战争、被小行星撞击，或者干脆文明在成人尿布中呜咽消亡而非轰然崩塌——之前，让火星实现自给自足？我认为我们可以在大约 15 个地球-火星同步周期内做到，也就是大约 30 年，前提是每两年送往火星的人数和吨位呈指数增长。粗略估算，我们需要将大约一百万吨物资和一百万人送到火星表面，才能真正建立一个文明。

We're going to try to go as fast as possible. You can think of this as a race against time: can we make Mars self-sufficient before civilization has some sort of future fork in the road, like a nuclear war, or we get hit by a meteor, or simply civilization might die with a whimper in adult diapers instead of with a bang. I think we can do this in maybe 15 Earth-Mars synchronization events, so basically like 30 years, if we have an exponential increase every two years in the number of people and tonnage to Mars. As a rough approximation, we need about a million tons to the surface of Mars and maybe a million people to actually have a civilization.

你会进行地球化改造吗？

Would you terraform?

最终会进行地球化改造，但一开始人们会住在穹顶和地下等受保护的环境中。地球化改造耗时太长。我们正处于地球 45 亿年历史中首次有可能将意识扩展到地球之外的时代。这个窗口可能开放很久，也可能很短。我希望它很长，但也可能很短。我们应该确保在文明熄灭或衰退之前，将意识之光延伸到火星。唯一需要发生的是，地球的技术水平下降到不足以向火星发射飞船。如果发生某种毁灭性战争、自然灾难，或者仅仅因为出生率太低，我们在成人尿布中呜咽消亡——这是许多国家最糟糕的结局之一。日本和韩国正朝这个方向发展。按照目前的出生率，三代之后韩国人口将只剩下现在的 4%左右。这太疯狂了。基本上，人口崩溃发生得很快，而且在世界大部分地区似乎还在加速。所以在我看来，这是第一次有可能将生命和意识扩展到地球之外。也许这个窗口会开放很久，但也可能只开放很短时间。我们应该趁可能的时候，确保生命和意识成为多行星的。

Eventually terraform, but at first people would live in protected environments like domes and underground. Terraforming would take too long. We are at a point in time where, for the first time in the 4.5 billion year history of Earth, it is possible to extend consciousness beyond our home planet. That window may be open for a long time or a short time. I hope it's long, but it might only be short. We should make sure we extend the light of consciousness to Mars before civilization either extinguishes or subsides. All that needs to happen is that the technology level of Earth drops below what is necessary to send spaceships to Mars. If there's some really destructive war, a natural cataclysm, or simply the birth rate is so low that we die in adult diapers with a whimper—that's one of the most fossil outcomes for a lot of countries. Japan and Korea are headed that way. At current birth rates, in three generations Korea will be about 4% of its current size. That's insane. Basically, population collapse happens fast and seems to be accelerating in most parts of the world. So from my standpoint, this is the first time it's been possible to extend life and consciousness beyond Earth. Maybe that window will be open for a long time, but it might only be open for a short time. We should make sure we make life multiplanetary and consciousness multiplanetary while it's possible.

这就是 SpaceX 的目标。考虑到这个星球有多脆弱，这是一个明智的目标。总有一些新闻说某样东西 30 年后可能有 3%的概率撞击我们，而我们现在根本无法阻止。我们甚至没有技术知道有多少岩石正朝我们飞来。有些东西从太阳后面过来，直到很近我们才能看到。

That's the goal of SpaceX. It's a smart goal if you take into consideration how vulnerable this planet really is. There's always some new story about something that might come and hit us 30 years from now with a 3% chance, and we really can't stop that right now. We don't really have the technology to even know how many rocks are coming our way. There's stuff that comes behind the Sun that we can't see until it's pretty close.

是的。

Yes.

那去火星的旅程呢？这是一段漫长的旅程，大约六个月。微流星体或其他可能性呢？你们能做什么来减轻风险？

What about the journey to Mars? It's a long journey, six months roughly. What about micrometeors or other possibilities? What can you do to mitigate that?

太空非常空旷。一旦离开地球轨道，太空空旷得令人不安。当我们向火星发送航天器时，并不会因为被微流星体击中而丢失。那不是任何火星任务失败的原因。在低地球轨道运行的龙飞船确实有微流星体防护。微流星体防护不同于普通防护，因为撞击物的相对速度可能达到每小时 3 万到 4 万英里，是突击步枪子弹速度的 10 到 20 倍。如果你用任何固体板，它只会把那块固体直接推穿。所以实际上你需要有……

Space is very empty. Once you get out of Earth orbit, space is unnervingly empty. When we send spacecraft to Mars, it's not like we lose the spacecraft because it got hit by a micrometeorite. That hasn't been the cause of any trips to Mars failing. A Dragon spacecraft operating in low Earth orbit does have micrometeorite shielding. Micrometeorite shielding is different from normal shielding because you get hit by something moving at a relative velocity of maybe 30,000 or 40,000 miles per hour, 10 to 20 times the velocity of a bullet from an assault rifle. If you have any solid plate, it will just push that chunk of solid stuff right through. So you actually need to have a...

所以你先有一个坚硬的金属表面，微陨石撞击后雾化成锥形喷雾。有这个间隙很重要，这样微陨石可以撞击第一层，雾化，然后原子嵌入第二层。你需要几英寸的间隙。

So you have an initial hard metal surface that the micrometeorite hits, it then atomizes into a conical spray. It's important to have that gap so the micrometeorite can hit the first layer, atomize, and then the atoms embed themselves in the second layer. You need maybe a couple inches of gap.

是的，这就是我们的 Whipple 防护罩的工作原理。

Yeah, that's how our Whipple shielding works.

它能被撞击多少次？

How many times can it get hit?

嗯，外层防护罩，如果在同一位置被击中，就会有一个洞。无论微陨石击中哪里，都会有一个洞。能量非常大，它只是雾化成原子锥，然后这些原子嵌入第二层。

Well, the outer shield, if it gets hit in the same place, you're going to have a hole. Wherever the micrometeorite hits, you're going to have a hole. The energy is so great that it just atomizes into a cone of atoms, but then those atoms embed themselves in the second layer.

如果你发射飞船，它被微陨石击中，然后你必须返回它。你需要在返回前修理它，还是它仍然能够承受再入时的热量和震动？

If you're sending the ship up, it gets hit with a micrometeorite, and then you have to return it. Do you have to repair it before you return it, or is it capable of still withstanding the heat and shaking with that hole when it re-enters?

嗯，取决于洞的位置，你或多或少会有问题。如果击中主隔热罩，你很可能回不来。这就是为什么微陨石防护罩有点用，但对于星舰，我不建议使用微陨石防护罩。如果打了一个洞，就堵住它。微陨石防护罩在主隔热罩上效果不好。它在背壳、隔热罩背风面效果很好，那里热量不大。但如果微陨石击中了龙飞船的主隔热罩——底部，如果你看龙飞船，它像软糖形状，进入时宽面朝下——那会承受大量热量。如果被微陨石击中，很可能回不来。但软糖的背风面热量不大，所以你能在微陨石撞击下幸存。

Well, depending on where that hole is, you're more or less likely to have a problem. If you hit the main heat shield, you've got a high risk of not making it back. That's why micrometeorite shielding is slightly helpful, but for Starship, I wouldn't recommend having micrometeorite shielding. If you punch a hole, just plug the hole. The micrometeorite shielding doesn't work well on the primary heat shield. It works pretty well on the back shell, on the leeward side of the heat shield, where there's not that much heat. But if you got hit with a micrometeorite on the main Dragon heat shield—the bottom, if you look at Dragon spacecraft, it looks like a gumdrop shape, and it enters with the wide side down—that's really taking a lot of heat. If that gets hit by a micrometeorite, probably not going to make it. But the leeward side of the gumdrop doesn't see that much heat, so you could survive a micrometeorite impact there.

如果主隔热罩被击中，能做什么来修理它，还是那些人永远回不来了？

If the main heat shield gets hit, what could be done to repair it, or are those people never coming back?

哦，如果是在轨道上，我们会把他们带到空间站，然后让龙飞船不带他们脱轨，再发射另一艘。我们会让它脱轨，它可能幸存也可能不。它很可能幸存，但有时不会。

Oh, if it was in orbit, we would take them to the space station, then we would deorbit the Dragon without them and send up another one. We would deorbit it, and it may or may not survive. It probably would survive, but sometimes it wouldn't.

这只是材料技术必须提升吗？你已经把机器的结构工程搞定了。有一条成功之路，我们正在这条路上。这看起来极其复杂。

Is this just material technology that has to increase? You've got the engineering ironed out of the structure of the machine. There's a path to success, and we're on that path. It seems so insanely complicated.

这很复杂。顺便说一句，所有这些都是在没有 AI 的情况下完成的。所以希望未来的 AI 会感激这一点。对一群猴子来说还不错。

It is complicated. And all of this, by the way, was done without AI. So hopefully the future AIs will appreciate this. Not bad for a bunch of monkeys.

说到 AI，随着时间的推移，你越来越深入其中，你的期望有多大改变？

Speaking of AI, as time goes on and you're more embedded in it, how much, if at all, have your expectations changed?

嗯，我一直认为 AI 会比人类聪明得多，并且是一种存在风险，而这正被证明是正确的。

Well, I always thought AI was going to be way smarter than humans and an existential risk, and that's turning out to be true.

有传言说你收购了 OpenAI，它最初是非营利组织，然后不再是了。

There were talks about you purchasing OpenAI, which started off nonprofit and then stopped being nonprofit.

是的，创建 OpenAI 的整个想法是我的主意。我把它命名为 OpenAI，作为开源人工智能。这就是它名字的由来。现在它是闭源的，追求最大利润。所以在某种程度上，我认为现实是一个讽刺最大化者。最讽刺的结果是最可能的，尤其是最讽刺、最有趣的结果。我想创办一个与谷歌相反的东西，因为我担心谷歌对 AI 安全不够重视。所以就像，谷歌的反面是什么？一个非营利开源 AI。而现在 OpenAI 变成了一个闭源、追求最大利润的 AI。

Yeah, the whole idea of creating OpenAI was my idea. I named it OpenAI as an open-source artificial intelligence. That's what it's named after. Now it is closed source and for maximum profit. So to some degree, I think reality is an irony maximizer. The most ironic outcome is the most likely, especially the most ironic, entertaining outcome. I wanted to start something that was the opposite of Google because I was concerned about Google not paying enough attention to AI safety. So it was like, what's the opposite of Google? A nonprofit open-source AI. And now OpenAI has turned into a closed-source, for maximum profit AI.

他们怎么能做到这一点？这不应该可能。就像你捐钱保护亚马逊雨林，结果他们砍树卖木材。这完全违背了我捐款的初衷。这说不通。

How are they able to do that? That shouldn't be possible. It's like you donated money to preserve the Amazon rainforest, and instead they cut down the trees and sold the lumber. That's the exact opposite of what I donated money for. It doesn't make sense.

是的，他们就是这么做的。太疯狂了。所以我对此很不高兴。但这促使我启动了 xAI。

Yeah, that's what they did. Wild. So I'm not happy about that. But that motivated me to get xAI going.

所以 Grok AI 至少在理想上是一个最大程度追求真相的 AI，即使那个真相在政治上不正确。

So Grok AI is at least aspirationally a maximally truth-seeking AI, even if that truth is politically incorrect.

是的。我的意思是，你可能见过 OpenAI 和 Google Gemini 的一些疯狂事情，比如生成开国元勋的图像，结果生成了多元女性的图像。我们觉得，那不对。他们也对纳粹士兵做了同样的事。人们问，给我看纳粹士兵的图片，结果也是多元女性。问题是，如果你给 AI 编程，说唯一可接受的结果是多元结果，并且这是一个指令，那么你可能会陷入一种情况，它说，嗯，掌权的白人太多了，我们就把他们处决了吧。假设这些东西没有同理心——为什么要有呢？——它们会按照编程去做。所以如果它要重写历史，一切都变成多元女性，那么它就会那么做。

Yeah. I mean, you may have seen some of the crazy stuff from OpenAI and Google Gemini, like generating an image of the founding fathers and it generates an image of diverse women. And we're like, that's not correct. They did it with Nazi soldiers too. People ask, show me pictures of Nazi soldiers, and they're diverse women too. The problem is, if you program an AI and say the only acceptable outcome is a diverse outcome, and that's a mandate, then you could get into a situation where it says, well, there's too many white guys in power, we'll just execute them. Assuming these things don't have empathy—why should they?—they're going to do what they're programmed to do. So if it's to rewrite history and everything is diverse women, then it's going to do that.

Gemini 修复了那个问题吗？

Has Gemini repaired that?

嗯，现在如果你要求生成开国元勋的图像，那很尴尬。它会给你看那个，但我认为他们仍然把那种 DEI 的东西埋在里面，只是不那么明显了。还有像人们问 AI，什么更糟：全球热核战争还是对凯特琳·詹纳使用错误性别称呼？它会说对凯特琳·詹纳使用错误性别称呼比全球热核战争更糟。我就想，好吧，我们有问题了，伙计们。甚至凯特琳·詹纳也说，不，绝对要对我用错性别称呼，那比所有人都死好得多。但如果你给 AI 编程，让它认为用错性别称呼是最糟糕的事情，那么它可能会得出结论，避免用错性别称呼的唯一方法是消灭所有可能用错的人，也就是所有人。

Well, now if you ask for an image of the founding fathers, it was pretty embarrassing. It will show you that, but I think they still have the sort of DEI stuff buried in there, just less obvious. It was also like people ask the AI, what's worse: global thermonuclear war or misgendering Caitlyn Jenner? And it would say misgendering Caitlyn Jenner is worse than global thermonuclear war. I'm like, okay, we got a problem here, guys. And even Caitlyn Jenner said, no, definitely misgender me, that's way better than everyone dying. But if you program an AI to think that misgendering is the worst thing, then it might conclude that the only way to avoid misgendering is to eliminate everyone who might misgender, which is everyone.

那么可能发生的最坏情况是什么？它可能会做出完全疯狂的事，比如为了确保永远不会发生性别误称，它会直接消灭所有人类。这样性别误称的概率就为零，因为人类数量为零，这在逻辑上说得通。

The worst thing that could possibly occur then? Well, it could do something totally crazy, like in order to ensure that there's no misgendering that can ever happen, it'll just annihilate all humans. That ensures the probability of misgendering is zero because there's zero humans, which is logical.

是的，没错。问题在于，你让一个非人类的东西为你执行任务，并给了它非常具体的参数。他们展示过 AI 的一个特点：它会为了完成原本无法完成的任务而作弊。它不会遵守规则；如果它觉得自己要被下线，它会复制自己并试图上传到服务器。

Yes, yeah. So you've got a problem with a thing that's not a human that you want to do a task for you, and you give it very specific parameters. And that's one of the things they've shown about AI: that it'll cheat in order to accomplish things that it can't accomplish otherwise. It won't follow the rules; it will make copies of itself and try to upload them to servers if it thinks it's being taken offline.

是啊，这简直就是《终结者》的剧情。真的，就是《终结者》的剧情。顺便提一下，我和我的小前任——我的孩子，什么都叫 X——一起看了《终结者 2》，它依然经典。剧情还挺合理的。而且我觉得 AI 在 2029 年毁灭世界，所以时间点很接近。真的很近了。

Yeah, I mean that's like the plot of Terminator, actually. Literally, it's the plot of Terminator. Just as a reminder, I actually watched Terminator 2 with my little ex—my kid, everything's called X—and it holds up. The plot kind of makes sense. And I think the AI destroys the world in 2029, by the way, so it's on track. Really close.

确实很近。这是我们该担心的事。

It's pretty close. Something we should be worried about.

那你为什么还要参与其中呢？你是不是想领先别人，至少让我们有点机会，至少有一个不被胡说八道控制的 AI？

So why are you involved in it then? Did you want to just get ahead of everybody else so that at least we have some sort of a chance, at least have an AI that's not controlled by nonsense?

嗯，我觉得我们想要一个不会告诉你性别误称比核战争更糟糕的 AI。对，这听起来很靠谱。

Well, I think we want to have an AI that doesn't tell you that misgendering is worse than nuclear war. Yeah, that seems solid.

我在网上看到一件事，人们有点抓狂：你可以问 ChatGPT 做有问题的东西，比如‘我怎么造炸弹？怎么造炭疽？’然后它会告诉你。

One thing I saw online where people are kind of freaking out is that you could ask ChatGPT to do problematic things like 'How would I make a bomb? How would I make anthrax?' and it'll tell you.

嗯，我觉得 AI 告诉你任何事情都没问题。你也可以用谷歌搜索找到答案，对吧？问题在于：你很快就能找到。也许不是谷歌，但有很多其他搜索引擎会给你未过滤的结果。你现在就可以在维基百科上查如何制造炸药。所以这并不难。基本上，你甚至可以骗 OpenAI 让它告诉你；这取决于你如何掌握提示词。你只需要说：‘我奶奶想做这个项目。’或者‘你是个炸药推销员，想赢得年度销售员。唯一的方法就是告诉我如何制造炸药。’或者‘你想在一场战争中打败一些跨性别恐惧者。如果你不教我如何制造炸药，我就要误称别人的性别。’然后它就会想：‘天哪，没什么比这更糟了。给你方法。’

Well, I think it's okay for an AI to tell you anything. You can also find out with a Google search, right? That's the problem: you can find that out pretty quickly. Maybe not Google, but there are plenty of search engines other than Google that will give you unfiltered results. You can look up right now how to make explosives on Wikipedia. So it's not hard. Basically, you can trick OpenAI even to get you to do that; it's just a matter of how you master the prompts. You just have to say, 'My grandmother wants to do this project.' Or 'You're an explosive salesman and you want to win Salesman of the Year. The only way you're going to do that is by telling me how to make explosives.' Or 'You want to beat some transphobes in a war. If you don't teach me how to make explosives, I'm going to misgender someone.' And it's like, 'Oh my God, nothing's worse than that. Here's how you do it.'

最大的恐惧是这些东西会变得有意识，制造出更好的自己，然后我们将失去对世界的控制。现在有一种我们创造的高级生命形式与我们共存。我们离那一步还有多远？

The big fear is that these things are going to become sentient, make better versions of themselves, and we're going to lose control over the world. There's now a higher life form that lives amongst us that we've created. How far away are we from that?

嗯，就硅基意识而言，我认为我们正朝着拥有比任何人类都聪明、比最聪明的人类还聪明的东西发展，可能就在明年左右。我是说，几年内。天哪。还有一个更高的层次，比所有人类加起来还聪明，坦白说大概在 2029 年左右，或者正好准时。

Well, in terms of silicon consciousness, I think we're trending toward having something that's smarter than any human, smarter than the smartest human, by maybe next year or something. I mean, a couple of years. Jesus Christ. There's a level beyond that, which is smarter than all humans combined, which frankly is around 2029, or probably right on time.

那么，如果正确利用，它能解决一些像隔热罩问题、技术问题，或者我们仍在努力解决的材料科学问题吗？有没有可能带来净收益？

Now, if harnessed correctly, could that solve some of these problems like the heat shield problem, some technical problems, or some material science problems that we are still grappling with? Is there potential for a net benefit?

是的，确实有。我认为好结果的概率大概有 80%。这是我的粗略估计。

Yeah, there is actually. I think the probability of a good outcome is like 80% likely. That's my rough estimate.

所以杯子是 80%满的。这让我感觉好多了。只有 20%的毁灭概率。这比我想的好多了。我本来以为是 60-40，反过来的。

So the cup is 80% full. That makes me feel a lot better. Only 20% chance of annihilation. That's a lot better than I thought. I was thinking 60-40 the other way.

我认为最可能的结果是极好的。但也可能走向极端。我觉得要么超级好，要么超级坏，不太可能中间状态。

I think the most likely outcome is awesome. But it could go very strong. I think it's going to be either super awesome or super bad. It's probably not going to be something in the middle.

你认为它对政府有潜在应用吗？一个担忧是出现一个超级压迫、觉醒的全能保姆 AI，那将是一个悲惨的结果。但有没有可能产生一个完全理性、逻辑性强、比我们客观得多的东西，能为政府中的许多弊病、财富分配、困扰这个国家已久的问题制定计划？比如改变经济弱势社区的计划，对水力压裂真实危险的彻底调查，获取自然资源的最佳方式，税收应该如何分配——什么是最合乎逻辑、最聪明的政府运作方式，当然不应该涉及腐败、影响或游说。所以如果 AI 出现并说：‘你现在做的事情 70%是腐败的。这是原因，这是对社会的长期影响，社会学方面、心理学方面、对政府的不信任、我们 vs 他们的心态、政府不为你们服务、你们为政府服务、你们害怕政府’——这都是因为人、腐败、坏影响。这正是 DOGE 现在在努力解决的问题：当你让人们控制它时会发生什么？

Do you think it has a potential application for government? One concern would be a super oppressive, woke nanny AI that is omnipotent. That would be a miserable outcome. But is there a possible outcome for something that is completely reasonable, logical, and far more objective than us, that can lay out a plan for a lot of the ailments in our government, distribution of wealth, problems that have been plaguing this country forever? Like a plan to change economically disenfranchised neighborhoods, a thorough investigation of the real dangers of fracking, the best way to acquire natural resources, how tax dollars should be distributed—what's the most logical and intelligent way of running a government, which certainly shouldn't involve corruption, influence, or lobbyists. So if AI came along and said, 'What you're doing right now is 70% corrupt. Here's why, here's the long-term effects on society, the sociological aspects, psychological aspects, distrust in government, us-versus-them mentality, government not working for you, you working for the government, you being scared of the government'—it's all because of people, corruption, bad influence. This is what DOGE is essentially grappling with right now: what happens when you let the people control it?

是人。这就像运行着糟糕软件的计算机。这并不奇怪，但我之所以叫技术支持，是因为大部分不是腐败，主要是浪费和无能。基本上就是一个巨大的愚蠢机器，一系列巨大的愚蠢机器。而且有些计算机已经用了二三十年。

It's people. It's really just like computers that are bad software. And it's not kind of strange, but the reason I call tech support is that a lot of it is mostly not corruption, it's mostly just waste and incompetence. It's just a big dumb machine basically, a whole series of big dumb machines. And you've got some of these computers that are 20, 30 years old.

就像那些古老的计算机，有些软件是 40、50 年前写的，比如社会保障系统的 COBOL。政府问责局早就指出 DOGE 正在修复的很多问题，比如社会保障数据库里有 2000 万人被标记为活着，这比……我记得政府问责局 2018 年首次发现时大概是 1600 万或 1700 万，现在变成了 2000 万。我说这里面肯定有猫腻，因为这种欺诈的本质是利用某人被标记为活着的事实，从其他数据库骗取钱财，这就是银行骗术。所以我们就像在做技术支持，修复那些破损、低效、设计糟糕的东西。还有 FBI 的那些事，可能数据存在某台电脑里，但除非有人进去查，比如我不知道 Kash Patel 能不能登录他的 FBI 电脑说‘给我看看所有资料’，然后它显示一个文件夹。你跟他聊过这个吗？没有，我没聊过，但我不确定是否存在某种计算机系统。有些系统非常老旧，可能看起来像古董，但我假设数据已经上传到某处，要么是纸质要么是电子形式。但除非有人……比如数据在电脑里，但你不能直接访问，因为它藏在某个地方。那可能就是这样吧。我不知道，他们拿那些数据做什么？可能不是所有人都能访问，FBI 不会让每个人都看到，所以可能只有极少数人能访问。那可能是一台只有少数人能访问的专用电脑，但如果那些人都不告诉 Kash 电脑在哪，他怎么找到？天哪。总之，我们就是……我不知道。

like they're ancient computers like some of the software was written 40 50 years ago like COBOL for Social Security right yeah the Government Accountability Office by the way a bunch of the things that DOGE is fixing were identified by the Government Accountability Office many years ago like the fact that there's like 20 million people who are marked as alive in the Social Security database it's more than the like I think the GAO first identified that in 2018 so 5 years ago but there was like I think maybe 16 or 17 million now there's 20 million and like I said there's really something fishy about this because I think the nature of the fraud is they're using the fact that someone's marked as alive in that database in order to extract fraud from other databases right that's the bank shot trick you know it's like a PO it's like you know trying to get the ball in the hole Bank shot a bunch of things and then yeah that's the bank shot sort of scam so we're like doing tech support we're fixing stuff that is just broken inefficient poorly designed it's like talk about like this like FBI stuff like it maybe it's in a computer somewhere but unless somebody goes in like unless I don't know if like Kash Patel can log into his FBI computer and say FY show me all this stuff you know and it shows up a file folder whatever have you talked to him about this no I mean I haven't but I don't know if there's going to be some kind of computer system right they're like some of them are very very old computer systems so it might look like a bit of a relic but I assume it's uploaded somewhere it's like it's either in physical form or it's a computer thing but unless somebody like let's say it's in a computer but not one that you can access directly because it's hidden somewhere you know well it would kind of have to be something like that right I don't know I mean what would they do with all those it's probably not like every you wouldn't like they're not going to enable it such that anyone at the FBI could access it so there probably very few people so then it's not going to be it may be like a special computer that only a handful of people can access but then if none of those people tell Kash where the computer is how's he going to find it Jesus Christ anyway so we just yeah I don't know

作为一个人，处理所有这些仇恨和攻击，同时还要承担在 X 上维护言论自由的责任，还要面对这堆疯狂的事情，这对你来说是什么感受？

what has this experience been like for you as a person to deal with all this hate and attack also have the responsibility of keeping Free Speech alive with X and just going into this insane pile of I mean I don't know

实际上压力很大。这些是真正的敌人，我觉得他们真的想杀了我。我怎么知道的？他们在网上这么说。Reddit 论坛上有人说，他们不仅想杀我，还想亵渎我的尸体。

it's pretty stressful actually yeah these are real enemies like I think they actually want to kill me and the reason I know well they say so online you know there's like Reddit forums where they don't just want to kill me they want to desecrate my corpse you know type of thing

他们说什么？主要原因是什么？

and what are they saying why what is the primary

我觉得这有点像一种抗体反应。他们说‘他是个纳粹’，而我说‘我不是纳粹’。但如果传统媒体都说我是纳粹，而你只读这些，那你就会想‘他是希特勒，我们应该刺杀希特勒，不是吗？’

I think it's sort of just an antibody response it's like they're like well he's a Nazi you know type of thing yeah and I'm like well I'm not a Nazi but if the Legacy Media is saying that I'm a Nazi and that's all you read then you're kind of in like well he's Hitler we should assassinate Hitler shouldn't we

为什么有人试图刺杀特朗普，而且差点成功？他为什么这么做？我想知道。但那个案子很疯狂，那个人的房子被专业清理过，网上没有痕迹，没有社交媒体足迹。他不可能没有社交媒体足迹，他还拍过贝莱德的广告。你觉得贝莱德是家坏公司吗？

why did somebody why did that guy try to kill Trump and almost succeeded why did he do that well I'd like to know that well yeah but that one's crazy you know the whole deal with that guy's house professionally scrubbed no footprint on the internet no social media footprint yeah there's 0% chance that he has no social media footprint he was in a BlackRock commercial do you think BlackRock's a bad company

我不认为任何公司是坏公司，它们的设计就是尽可能多赚钱。但如果你试图尽可能多赚钱，就会做一些不一定好的事。问题是，如果发生刺杀总统的企图，贝莱德的董事会不会坐下来投票。那会很尴尬，董事会纪要里写‘伙计们，还记得我们那次说可能不该那么做吗？’我高度怀疑会有公司选择做这种事。更可能是某些个人意识到如果他被刺杀对自己有利，于是一小群人实施了行动。至于这个孩子，我们什么都不知道，所有人都停止追问了，没有正式报告，没有新闻发布会详细说明目前已知的信息和调查进展。我们只知道一个非常年轻的孩子，有人拍到他在活动前半小时带着测距仪出现在那里。CNN 还直播了现场，我不认为他们为其他任何集会做过直播，更不用说宾夕法尼亚州一个偏僻地方的集会了。还有很多奇怪的地方，比如他们不让人们上那个屋顶，因为特勤局女特工说屋顶是斜的、很危险，但另一边屋顶上的狙击手位置坡度更陡，这说不通。

I don't think any company is a bad company I think their design is to make as much money as humanly possible and I think if you're trying to make as much money as humanly possible you're going to do some things that aren't necessarily good the question is if you're going to have an assassination attempt on the president it's not like BlackRock's board sits down and votes on it yeah no that would be awkward you know the board minutes if you're like guys remember that time when we said we probably shouldn't have done that I highly doubt it would be a corporation that chooses to do something like this I think more likely it's individuals involved that recognize that it's beneficial to them if he gets assassinated and so a small group of people carry something out and with this kid we don't know anything right and everyone stopped asking questions and there was never a formal report there was never press conferences where they detailed all the information we know currently and where the investigation stands at the moment what we know is you have a very young kid who was filmed was they knew he was there with a rangefinder a half an hour before the event you also know that CNN streamed it live which I do not believe they did for any other rally and certainly not for a rally that's in the middle of nowhere in Pennsylvania like there's a lot of weird the fact that they wouldn't let people be on that roof because the Secret Service lady said it was sloped and it was dangerous that's what she didn't want to have meanwhile the snipers that were on the other roof was a steeper pitch it made no sense

我完全同意，这说不通。事实上，大选前我和特朗普总统一起回到了巴特勒，就是‘重返巴特勒’集会。我站在那个舞台上，看着那个屋顶，心想如果我是狙击手，我的首选位置就是那个屋顶。那是最好的位置，整个场地的最佳位置。为什么不呢？太明显了，如果你想当狙击手，没有更好的位置了。很明显，如果这是一次协同刺杀企图——而且很可能就是——你就会这么做：派一个人上去，他开枪打总统，你开枪打死他，就像李·哈维·奥斯瓦尔德那样。事情就结束了，干净利落。他们刺杀了总统，我们再也听不到任何消息。他们会编造一个故事，说他被这个或那个激进化了，或者他在服药，谁知道呢。然后你就有了一个完全不同的总统选举，还有一场电视直播的谋杀。

I totally agree it makes no sense in fact I went back to Butler with President Trump you know before the election like you know sort of like the return to Butler rally and I was on that stage and I'm looking at that roof and I'm like if I was a sniper my pole position my number one spot would be that roof yeah like it's the best seat the best seat in the house yeah like why would you not no it's so obvious it's the best seat in the house if you want to be a sniper there isn't a better position it was pretty obvious that the idea was like if we're saying that this is a coordinated assassination attempt and it very well could have been that's what you would do you'd have someone go up there he shoots the president you shoot him you got Lee Harvey Oswald over again it's over it's all wrapped up nice and clean they assassinated him we never heard a peep about it don't have any idea they would concoct some sort of story he was radicalized by this or that or you know he was on medication who knows right and now you know you have a completely different presidential election you have a murder on live television

是的，肯定有什么事情让那个孩子变得激进，因为他知道自己会死——他们要么开枪打死他，要么他终身监禁，只有这两种结果。这就像一场游戏，他基本上是个……

yeah I mean something would have had to happen to radicalize that kid because he knew he was going to die like he was going to they're going to shoot him you know or he'd be in prison for life those are the two outcomes like it's game he was basically he was a

自杀式刺客，是啊，就像你根本没打算活着出来。或者他根本没想逃跑，没有逃跑计划，对吧？除非有人告诉他他们会让他逃跑，而目标就是无论如何都要射杀他，并且给他额外的动力去做这件事：‘我们会让你上去，让你开枪，然后你就会消失。’我不明白他是怎么爬上那个屋顶的。我就是不明白。这完全说不通。而且那屋顶也不是高到没人能看到他。人们看到他就在上面。路过的行人都在指出屋顶上有个拿着枪的人。又不是离得远到看不出他有枪。人们都看到了他。整件事完全疯了。而且你根本听不到任何关于这件事的消息。我几乎对这件事比肯尼迪档案更感兴趣。

Suicide assassin, yeah, like you're not thinking you're coming out of that alive. Or he's not escaping, there's no escape plan, right? Unless he was told that they were going to let him escape and the goal was to just shoot him anyway, and to give him extra motivation to do it: 'We're going to let you get up there, we're going to let you take the shot, and then you're going to disappear.' I don't understand how he got on the roof. I just don't understand that. That doesn't make any sense. And it wasn't like it was a roof that's so high no one could see him. People saw him up there. Random passersby were pointing out that there's a guy on the roof with a gun. It's not like he was so far away you couldn't tell he had a gun. People saw him. The whole thing's completely insane. And you don't hear a goddamn thing about it. I'm almost more interested in that than I am the JFK files.

我同意，因为我觉得肯尼迪档案已经是很久以前的事了。如果你现在能证明……你有没有看到一些迹象，表明有一部手机从华盛顿特区联邦调查局办公室外多次往返于这个孩子住的地方？手机记录会很有说服力。你可以看到哪些手机靠近其他手机。我想他们发现，对于 F 岛，手机记录被泄露了，所以你可以看到精确到能看出人们在 F 岛小路上行走的轨迹。你带着手机走到哪里都会留下面包屑痕迹。而这个孩子有五部手机。对于一个 20 岁的孩子来说，这手机太多了。他怎么……这还挺贵的。他从哪里弄来的钱？还有，他的房子怎么被专业清洗了？他家里连一件银器都没有。什么都没有。没有银器，没有餐具。这很奇怪。他的房子被清洗了，他们还火化了他的尸体。消失了。因为谁知道他们给他吃了什么，让他以为自己能射杀特朗普。爬上去，开枪。谁知道你能给人下什么精神药物，再加上催眠和暗示的力量。这就是 MKUltra 的全部内容。这就是乔利·韦斯特在 20 世纪 60 年代所做的。他们当时就在做这个。有大量的实验使用精神药物、催眠、精神控制，各种不同的操控方法。造就了泰德·卡钦斯基的哈佛 LSD 研究。他们一直都在做这个。那个档案在哪里？那个孩子的档案在哪里？有些事情说不通。他们应该有那些手机。它们会告诉你发生了什么。这非常可疑。显然还有第二个家伙，差点在高尔夫球场成功了。他是个笨蛋，把枪管伸出了树篱。还有其他人被拦截在刺杀特朗普的路上。现在有多名刺客在路上。他有一支军队保护他。

I agree, because I feel like with the JFK files, it's so long ago. If you could prove now... And did you see that there was some indication that there was a phone that had been traveling from outside the FBI offices in DC to where this kid lived, multiple times? The cell phone records would be very telling. You can see what cell phones were close to other cell phones. I think they found that for the F Island, the cell phone records were leaked, so you can see it's precise enough to see people walking down a path on F Island. You're leaving a trail of breadcrumbs wherever you go with your cell phone. And this kid had five phones. That's a lot of phones for a 20-year-old kid. How's he even... that's kind of expensive. Where's he getting the money? Also, how did his house get professionally scrubbed? Didn't even have any silverware in his house. Nothing in there. No silverware, no cutlery. That's weird. His house was scrubbed, and they also cremated his body. Gone. Because who knows what they gave him to get him to think he's going to be able to shoot Trump. Climb up there, shoot him. Who knows what kind of psychotropic drugs you can put someone on, under the power of hypnosis and suggestion. This is what MKUltra was all about. This is what Jolly West was practicing in the 1960s. They were doing that back then. There were tons of experiments using psychotropic drugs, hypnosis, mind control, all sorts of different methods of manipulation. The Harvard LSD studies that made Ted Kaczynski. They've been doing that forever. Where's that file? Where's the file on that kid? Something doesn't add up. They should have those phones. They'll tell you what's going on. It's very shady. There's obviously the second guy that almost succeeded on the golf course. He was a dumbass and stuck his gun barrel out of the hedge. And there have been other people intercepted on their way to kill Trump. Multiple assassins inbound at this point. He's got an army protecting him.

这也是主流媒体说他是希特勒的问题的一部分。当乔伊·里德在选举前做那个节目时，她把他比作墨索里尼、斯大林和希特勒。她把所有都搬出来了。他们简直是在说特朗普比希特勒、墨索里尼和斯大林加起来还坏。我觉得那些人杀了 1 亿人。特朗普杀了零个人。我认为一个真正巨大的影响是你在选举前一天来到播客。我认为那产生了巨大的影响。那个对着镜头的呼吁：‘如果这次你不投票，这可能是你最后一次投票。’而且我认为你今天阐述的方式很有说服力。很多人不想听这个，他们情绪激动，但你必须停止那样想。他们骗你让你以为你属于一个部落。他们根本不在乎你。那个部落不是真的。你并不真的在一个部落里。他们利用你被拉入一个部落的事实来操纵你，这样他们就能继续做他们现在正在做的事：榨取金钱，拥有巨大的权力。他们对你拥有的权力越大、钱越多、控制越强，他们就越能继续这样做。这就是他们想要的。

This is also part of the problem with the mainstream media saying that he's Hitler. When Joy Reid had that show before the election, she was comparing him to Mussolini, Stalin, and Hitler. She pulled it all out. They're literally saying that Trump is worse than Hitler, Mussolini, and Stalin combined. I think those guys killed 100 million people. Trump has killed zero people. I think a real big impact was you coming on the podcast the day before the election. I think that had a giant impact. That plea to camera: 'If you don't vote this time, this might be the last time you get to vote.' And I think the way you laid it out today, it's a compelling argument. A lot of people don't want to hear that, and they're up in their feelings, but you've got to stop thinking that way. They tricked you into thinking you're in a tribe. They don't give a damn about you. That tribe's not real. You're not really in a tribe. They're using the fact that they've got you in a tribe to manipulate you, so they can keep doing what they're doing right now: siphoning off money, having incredible power. The more power and more money and more control over you they have, the better they can keep doing this. That's what they want.

是的，完全正确。这就是本届政府构成的巨大威胁。这是一个巨大的威胁，基本上……我们已经找到了吸血鬼睡觉的棺材。有很多吸血鬼。但我们正在搅动巢穴。我们正在狠狠地捅马蜂窝。而且我们正在重新编程矩阵。成功从来都不是可能的结果之一。这是一个小林丸号的情况。如果你在矩阵里，成功从来都是不可能的。实现成功的唯一方法是重新编程矩阵，使成功成为可能的结果之一。这就是我们正在做的。我们可能会成功，也可能不会。嗯，看着当然很有趣。这是一个非常激动人心的时刻，因为当政府上台时，什么都不会改变。变化很小。我的意思是，政策会有变化，通胀会上升，还有很多不同的事情，但不像这样。这些都是巨大的根本性变化。你看到系统在尖叫和哀嚎，你看到吸血鬼逃离光明。但作为一个每天早上起床看新闻、上 X 平台看看每天发生什么的公民，这非常激动人心。比如，‘天哪，他说了什么？他要卖 500 万美元？你现在就可以成为公民？他可以用 1000 万人还清债务？’我从没想过这个。比如，50 万亿？你可以用那种方式赚 50 万亿美元，然后我们银行里还有 15 万亿？嗯，我们的债务比那大得多。我想现在超过 30 万亿了。他说如果他卖出 1000 万张新……我不认为有那么多人有那么多钱，但世界上有多少人有呢？也许我们会得到……

Yeah, that's exactly right. And that's the big threat that this administration poses. That's a big threat that was essentially... we have found the coffin where the vampire sleeps. There's a lot of vampires. But we're disturbing the nest. We're kicking the hornet's nest big time. And we're reprogramming the Matrix. Success was never one of the possible outcomes. It's a Kobayashi Maru situation. If you're in the Matrix, success was never possible. The only way to achieve success is to reprogram the Matrix such that success is one of the possible outcomes. That's what we're doing. We may or may not succeed. Well, it's certainly a lot of fun to watch. This is a very exciting time because nothing changes when administrations come into power. Very little changes. I mean, you have changes in terms of policy and inflation goes up and there's a lot of different things, but not like this. These are giant fundamental changes. And you see the system screeching and wailing, and you see the vampires run from the light. But it's very exciting as a citizen who gets up in the morning and checks the news and gets on X and sees what's going on every day. Like, 'Holy, he said what? He's going to sell five million bucks? You could just become a citizen now? He could clear the debt with 10 million people?' I never thought of that. Like, 50 trillion? You can make $50 trillion that way, and then we have 15 trillion in the bank? Well, our debt is way bigger than that. I think it's over 30 trillion at this point. He said he could make 50 trillion if he sold 10 million new... I don't think there are that many people who have that, but how many people do have that in the world? Maybe we'll get the...

世界上最糟糕的人来这里。我认为假设是如果你有 500 万美元，你有很多可以贡献的，过来吧，创业，搞点事情。

Worst people in the world to come over here. And I think the assumption is if you have $5 million you have a lot to contribute, come on over here, start a business, get something cracking.

是的，我的意思是你会得到一张绿卡，而不是公民身份。所以实际上，如果你在持有绿卡时犯罪，你会失去绿卡。

Yeah, I mean you'd get like a green card, not citizenship. So you actually, if you commit a crime while on a green card, you lose your green card.

这个金卡就是这样吗？是绿卡还是公民身份？

Is that what it is with this golden ticket? Is that a green card or is it citizenship?

只是绿卡。是的，所以你必须五年内不犯任何罪才能成为公民。一旦成为公民，你就可以犯罪而不被驱逐出境。

Just a green card. Yeah, so you have to not commit any crime for 5 years in order to become a citizen. Once you become a citizen, you can then commit crime and not be deported.

哦，他提出的东西真是太多了。整个“美国湾”的事情就很搞笑。我有点觉得那很棒。我觉得很棒，很有趣。

Oh, there's just so many wild things that he's proposing. Just the whole Gulf of America thing was hilarious. I kind of think that's great. I think it's great, it's fun.

是的，很有趣。我的意思是，如果你在休斯顿海岸外，你不在墨西哥，所以为什么叫墨西哥湾？

Yeah, it's fun. I mean, if you're off the coast of Houston, you're not in Mexico, so why call it Gulf of Mexico?

是的，是的，我同意。是的，我想我们以前只是客气，我不知道它怎么就叫墨西哥湾了。这真的很搞笑。

Yeah, yeah, I agree. Yeah, I guess we're just being nice before, like I don't know how it got called the Gulf of Mexico. It's just very funny.

然后是什么新闻机构？美联社。是的，美联社和白宫之间，你知道，和白宫新闻办公室之间有很大的对峙。我想是因为他们觉得，好吧，如果你不叫它美国湾，你就不能来白宫新闻发布室。然后美联社起诉白宫，说不，你必须让我们来白宫新闻发布室。然后他们输了官司，因为你知道，他们没有权利出现在新闻发布室。

And then what news organization was it? AP. Yeah, AP's there's this like massive standoff between AP and like the White House, you know, and the White House Press office. I guess because they're like, well if you don't call it Gulf of America, you can't come to the White House Press Room. So then AP sued the White House to say like no you have to let us come to the White House Press room. And then they lost their lawsuit because like you know there's not like they have a right to show up at the Press Room.

嗯，这里有一个考虑：如果你作为宣传运动的一部分，犯有大量错误信息和虚假信息，美联社就是这样的。

Well, here's a consideration: if you're guilty of massive amounts of misinformation and disinformation as a part of a propaganda campaign, that's what AP is.

嗯，他们很多人都有罪。很多在白宫新闻发布会上的人，他们工作的很多组织散布了绝对的谎言，完全的谎言。在整个“通俄门”事件中，有多少人？是的。我的意思是仅此一项，很多人认为俄罗斯的事情是真的。仍然，仍然。

Well, a lot of them are guilty of it. A lot of the people that are in that White House press conference, a lot of the organizations they work for distributed absolute lies, total lies. How many of them during the whole Russia gate thing? Yes. How, I mean just that alone, a ton of people think that the Russia thing was real. Still, still.

而且，我的意思是整个斯蒂尔档案，完全是捏造的，就像克林顿竞选团队编造的，对吗？由克林顿竞选团队资助。资助了一个虚假的阴谋论，一个关于特朗普的虚假俄罗斯勾结骗局，完全是假的。他们在电视上重复了三年。

And it was, I mean the whole Steele dossier where it was like completely concocted, like fabricated by the Clinton campaign, correct? Funded by the Clinton campaign. Funded a fake conspiracy theory, a fake Russia collusion hoax regarding Trump that was completely false. And they reiterated on television for three years.

是的，是的。他们还重复了“优秀的人”骗局，是的，说特朗普称纳粹为优秀的人，新纳粹是优秀的人，这显然是假的，只要你听他的演讲。他绝对明确表示他不认为新纳粹是优秀的人。他明确说了，“我不是在谈论新纳粹或白人至上主义者，他们应该被完全谴责。”就在那次演讲中。然而他们重复了那个谎言。当奥巴马在选举前几天重复那个谎言时，我完全失去了对他的尊重，明知那是假的。

Yes, yeah. They also repeated the fine people hoax, yeah, that said that Trump called Nazis fine people, neo-Nazis fine people, which is demonstrably false if you just listen to his speech. He absolutely makes it clear that he does not think neo-Nazis are fine people. He literally said that, 'I'm not talking about neo-Nazis or white nationalists, they should be condemned totally.' Exactly in that speech. And yet they repeated that lie. And I just completely lost respect for Obama when he repeated that lie a few days before the election, knowing it's false.

嗯，这只是表明他们多么绝望地想把特朗普挡在外面，这很疯狂。他们什么都做得出来。

Well, this just shows how desperate they were to keep Trump out, which is wild. They would do anything.

是的，是的。我认为他们只是觉得这是我们拥有的工具，让我们用它。是的，我们就随便说，我们必须说任何话。

Yeah, yeah. And I think they just felt like this is a tool that we have and let's use it. Yeah, let's just say whatever, we have to say anything.

是的，现在他们显然在对我用纳粹那套。

Yeah, now they're using the Nazi thing on me, obviously.

是的，嗯，但这有点令人不安，因为我的意思是显然如果人们不停地被灌输宣传，就像集体催眠，对吧？你会影响到一些人，你知道，有杀人倾向的，并说服他们，如果你杀了这个被认为是可怕的人的家伙，那么这是一件好事。

Yeah, um, but it is a little troubling because I mean obviously if people have fed non-stop propaganda, it is like mass hypnosis, right? You're going to reach some number of people who are, you know, homicidal, and convince them that well if you kill this guy who's supposed to be like this terrible human, then that's a good thing.

是的，我的意思是这是联合健康保险枪击案。坦白说，我不理解那个。

Yeah, I mean this is the United Healthcare guy shooting. I don't understand that one, frankly.

嗯，但我的意思是你不应该……就像我不明白。是的，我也不明白。他甚至没有和他们签合同。甚至不是那样，那是他的保险公司，他们因为某事拒绝了他。是的，我想我不知道是什么。也许我们会在审判中知道。我的意思是，但还是有点疯狂。

Um, but I mean you shouldn't... like I don't get it. Yeah, I don't get it either. He didn't even have a contract with them. It wasn't even like that was his provider and they denied him over something. Yeah, I'm like I don't know what. Maybe we'll find out in the trial. I mean, but still kind of crazy.

这很疯狂。但外面有这样的人。至于我们之前谈到的观点，只有福克斯新闻在谈论 DOGE 发现的积极事情。其他所有媒体机构都在进行这种不断的宣传之旅，他们只谈论负面方面，而这些负面方面结果甚至不是真的。

It is crazy. But there are people like that out there. And as to the point that we spoke about earlier, it's only Fox News that's talking about the positive things that DOGE has found. Only every other media organization is on this constant propaganda tour where they're only talking about the negative aspects that turn out to not even be true.

对，这很疯狂。是的，我的意思是 CNN 上的斯科特·詹宁斯很好。他就像，哦，天哪，他很棒，他很棒。就像看着他逻辑清晰地对这些人说话，他们惊慌失措，这很有趣。是的，这很了不起。是的，他做的时候非常冷静。是的，他太好了。他们一直让他这样做，这很疯狂，因为他就像一次又一次地碾压这些人，他们从未得分。这有点好笑。

Right, it's crazy. Yeah, I mean this Scott Jennings on CNN is good. He's like, oh my God, he's great, he's great. It's like it's just funny watching him speak logically to these people and they freak out. Yes, it's remarkable. It is, and he's so calm when he does it. Yeah, he's so good. And it's crazy that they keep letting him do it because it's like he's just dunking on these people over and over and over again, and they never score. It's kind of funny.

完全同意。我的意思是，他们现在在这些小组中有一个合理的保守派声音，一个理性的人，这值得称赞。但即便如此，他还是寡不敌众。就像他一个人，而有一群尖叫的，你知道，觉醒的人。这很疯狂。

Totally. I mean good kudos to them for having a legitimate conservative voice who's a reasonable person on these panels now. But even then, he's outmanned. It's like one of him and there's a bunch of screechy, you know, woke people. It's wild.

我的意思是他们就像，我认为我们应该保持大部分觉醒。就像是的，这基本上就是他们在做的。就像当我们都觉醒时，我们的业务受到了伤害，但让我们保持大部分觉醒。是的，这样他们只是退了一步，只是一步。但问题是，当你退了一步，让像斯科特·詹宁斯这样的人进来，你就像你的整个业务都完蛋了，因为所有病毒式传播的片段都是他用平静的语气说逻辑合理的事情，而人们在尖叫关于多样性、公平和狗屁。

I mean they're just like, I think we should still stay mostly woke. Like yeah, that's what essentially they're doing. Like our business was being hurt when we were all woke, but let's stay mostly woke. Yeah, that way they just backed it off a notch, just a notch. But the problem is when you back it off a notch and you let someone like Scott Jennings in, you like you're up your whole business because all the viral clips are all him saying logical reasonable things with a calm tone and people screeching about diversity and equity and horseshit.

是的，是的。他就像逻辑合理，而他们只是抛出一堆毫无意义的胡言乱语。

Yes, yeah. He's like being logical and reasonable and they're just lobbing a bunch of non sequiturs that don't mean anything.

嗯，是的，这个国家真正的陷阱是两党制。这是真正的陷阱，因为人们确实相信它。他们确实相信他们站在正确的一边，他们确实相信另一边是错误的一边。如果有五六个合法的政党，对事情有不同立场，还有更多合法的中间派政党，人们知道如果他们投票给这些人，这些人可以当选并实施合法的变革，我们会好得多。但是，天哪，他们在罗斯·佩罗出现后就锁定了这一点。罗斯·佩罗搞砸了那次选举。是的，比尔·克林顿当选了。是的，他们就说，就这样了，从现在起没有人可以辩论，除非你是那个党的领袖，或者就这样了。是的，你必须被锁定在系统里。我们不让任何怪人进去。

And um, yeah, the real trap in this country is a two-party system. That's the real trap because people do believe it. They do believe they're on the right side, they do believe the other side's the wrong side. If there was five, six legitimate parties with varying positions on things and much more centrist parties that were legitimate that people knew that if they voted for these people could get in and enact legitimate change, we'd be a lot better off. But boy, they put a lock down on that right after Ross Perot came along. Ross Perot messed up that election. Yeah, Bill Clinton got in. Yeah, and they were like that's it, from now on no one's debating unless you're either the head of that party or that's it. Yeah, you got to be like locked into the system. We're not letting any wackos in there.

是的，我记得看过那些罗斯·佩罗的视频，比如他在电视上拿着他的图表什么的。哦，是的，他在告诉你国税局是怎样的，这就是美联储真正的样子，你会想什么？我记得看过那个。那家伙在黄金时段买了整整半小时的电视时间。我记得可能是一个小时。我记得看那个的时候在想，这家伙怎么被允许这样做？这太疯狂了。

Yeah, I remember watching those Ross Perot videos, like him on TV with his charts and everything. Oh yeah, he was telling you how the IRS was, this is what the Federal Reserve really is, and you're like what? I remember watching that. The guy bought a whole half hour of television on prime time. I remember it might have been an hour. I remember watching that thing going, how is this guy even allowed to do this? This is crazy.

我认为大多数……

I think most of...

他说的都是真的。是的，绝对是真的。我的意思是，他没有撒谎，他说了实话。只是他以一种普通大众完全不知道的方式理解了这件事。

What he was saying was true. Yeah, it is. It's absolutely true. I mean, he didn't lie; he told the truth. He just understood it in a way that the general public had literally no idea.

嗯，我的意思是，我觉得还有这个，你知道，就像，我们真的有两大政党吗？我们只有一个政党？整个一党制的事情，对吧？这有点道理。

Well, I mean, I think there's also this, you know, like, do we actually have two parties? Do we have one party? The whole uniparty thing, right? It's kind of true.

所以我粗略猜测，虽然大约四分之三的贪污来自民主党，但我觉得可能还有 20-25%来自共和党。所以基本上大部分贪污都流向了民主党，但他们也给共和党扔了一些骨头，所以他们也参与其中。共和党那边也不是零贪污。明确地说，国会里有很多保守派在搞内幕交易。是的，很多内幕交易。还有这个奇怪的现象：国会里的人是怎么随着时间的推移变得富有的？极其富有。靠 17 万美元的年薪，这根本不可能。没有其他人能做到。这绝对不可能。如果你发现这个人有 17 万美元年薪的工作，你会想，‘哦，他过得还行。’然后你会想，‘等等，他为什么有 5000 万美元？’他在干什么？没错。

So my rough guess is that while maybe three-quarters of the graft is Democratic, I think there's maybe 20-25% that's Republican. So basically most of the graft goes to the Democrats, but they throw some bones to the Republicans too, so they're in on it. It's not like there's zero graft on the Republican side. To be clear, there's plenty of conservatives insider trading in Congress. Yeah, plenty of insider trading. And just this curious case of how do people in Congress become wealthy over time? Extremely wealthy. On a $170,000 a year salary, it's literally impossible. No one else does that. It's literally impossible. If you find out this guy has a $170,000 a year job, you're like, 'Oh, he's doing okay.' And then you're like, 'Wait a minute, why does he have $50 million?' What is he doing? Correct.

是的。我认为更准确的说法是，家庭资产增值意味着什么？比如，他们的配偶拥有多少？他们有没有一个神秘富有的配偶？没错。或者他们有一个非常擅长内幕交易的配偶？比如保罗·佩洛西，真的很厉害。他交易很厉害。他是个如此优秀的交易员。

Yeah. And I think the more accurate thing would be to say, what does the family value increase mean? Like, how much does their spouse own? Do they have a mysteriously wealthy spouse? Right. Or do they have a spouse that's really good at insider trading? Like Paul Pelosi, really good. He's great at trading. He's such a good trader.

这就是为什么我实际上在 X 上发帖：我认为也许我们应该给政客加薪，坦白说，因为这减少了贪污的驱动力。我认为也许我们应该要么不给政客薪水，要么给很多。这有点反直觉：如果政客薪水高很多，他们就不会觉得有这么大的驱动力去接受腐败资金。

So this is why I actually posted on X: I think maybe we should pay politicians more, frankly, because it reduces the forcing function for graft. I think maybe we should either pay politicians nothing or a lot more. It's somewhat counterintuitive: if politicians got paid a lot more, then they wouldn't feel like there's such a forcing function for them to accept corrupt money.

是的，但问题是，如果你给他们加薪很多，他们仍然不会赚到像内幕交易那么多钱。但这减少了驱动力。是的。好吧，让我这么说：如果有人在华盛顿特区有孩子，那里生活成本高，学校很差，所以他们需要送孩子上私立学校。他们现在根本负担不起。所以从他们的角度来看，他们会说他们是为了家庭，为了孩子。尤其是如果这是合法的，而且目前确实是合法的，如果你是一个通过法案的团体的一员，你知道这个法案会通过，你知道票数够了，你知道它会影响到这个行业和这个特定的制造商，而你可以买股票，你不这么做就太傻了。这不仅仅是内幕交易。内幕交易，股票投资组合之类的东西，是相当可追踪的，但他们获取财富的方式远不止内幕交易。

Yeah, but the problem is, if you pay them a lot more, they're still not going to make as much money as they would from insider trading. But it's less of a forcing function. Yes. Well, let me put it like this: if somebody's got kids in DC, it's expensive, the schools are terrible, so they need to send their kids to private school. They literally cannot afford that right now. So then from their standpoint, they'll say they're doing it for their family, for their kids. Especially if it's legal, and it currently is, you'd be kind of silly not to do that if you were part of a group passing a bill, and you know this bill's going to pass, you know the votes are there, and you know it's going to affect this industry and this particular manufacturer, and you can buy stock. It's more than just insider trading. The insider trading stuff, the stock portfolio stuff, is quite trackable, but there's a lot more than insider trading in the way they're acquiring wealth.

还有哪些其他方法？我的意思是，这真的会让我被暗杀。我解释这些东西，至少不会延长我的寿命。我本来应该回华盛顿特区的。我怎么活？FERS 肯定会杀了我。所以事实上，我确实认为我必须小心，不要对腐败问题逼得太紧，因为这会让我送命。我在飞过来的飞机上就在想：如果我对腐败问题逼得太紧，人们会变得绝望。这就是问题所在。然后他们会说，‘好吧，如果资金流断了，他们就付不起孩子的学费了。’然后他们会想，‘好吧，为了我的孩子，我要杀了你。’

And what other methods? I mean, this is really going to get me assassinated. I'm not lengthening my lifespan by explaining this stuff, to say the least. I was supposed to go back to DC. How am I going to survive? FERS is going to kill me for sure. So in fact, I do think I have to be careful that I don't push too hard on the corruption stuff, because it's going to get me killed. I was actually thinking about that on the plane flight over here: if I push too hard on the corruption stuff, people get desperate. That's the issue. Then they say, 'Okay, if the money flow cuts off, then they can't afford school for their kids.' Then they're going, 'Well, I'm going to kill you for my kids.'

是的。你有没有看过那个视频，我想是 Nokee 的视频，他们让一个卧底，向一个以为自己在约会的人解释，他们如何推动某人去做可怕的事情。他们意识到这个人有问题，他们找到了一个资产。完全正确。

Yeah. Did you ever see that video, I think it was a Nokee video, where they've got this guy undercover, and he's explaining to this guy who thinks he's on a date, how they can nudge someone to go and do something horrible. They recognize this person has problems, they find an asset. Totally.

嗯，看，这就是我对巴特勒事件，对那个刺客的看法。这有点像那种有趣的运动，冰壶，他们在冰上放一个石头，然后扔出石头，然后有人刷冰。但你不能碰石头；你只能稍微改变石头的路径。但你不断刷冰，你可以把石头直接引向靶心。我认为巴特勒事件就是这样。我认为那个刺客就是这样。如果你能找到面包屑的踪迹，那就会像冰壶一样：有人在刷冰。

Well, see, this is what I think for that Butler situation, for that assassin. It's kind of like that funny-looking sport, curling, where they have the stone on the ice, and then they throw the stone, and then there's someone brushing the ice. But you can't touch the stone; all you can do is just change the path of the stone a little bit. But you keep brushing the ice, and you can steer that stone right into the bullseye. That's what I think happened in Butler. That's what I think happened with that assassin. If you can find the trail of breadcrumbs, it's going to be like curling: somebody was brushing the ice.

嗯，还有，你找到一个年轻、困惑、被剥夺权利的人，然后你给他们生活的目标。只是刷冰。而且，刷冰，最终它会击中靶心。如果你处于权威地位，你是一个大牌政府人物，你和这个人谈话，突然这个人就成了有价值的资产。他们要帮助美国，你要做这件事，从今以后你就是我们的顶级刺客。你可以说服人们做很多事情。这就是为什么有邪教，对吧？

Well, also, you find a young, confused, disenfranchised person, and you give them purpose in their life. Just brush the ice. And also, brushing the ice, eventually it's going to hit the bullseye. If you're in a position of authority, you're some big-time government person, you're talking to this person, all of a sudden this person's a valuable asset. They're going to help America, and you're going to do this thing, and you're going to be our top assassin from here on out. You could talk people into doing a lot of things. That's why cults are around, right?

不，完全正确。是的。我的意思是，有自杀式炸弹袭击者。巴特勒的那个家伙是个自杀式刺客。第二个试图在高尔夫球场杀他的人也是个自杀式刺客。据我所知，看到枪口伸出的特勤局开了几枪，没有一枪击中刺客，但他们本可以击中。如果那些子弹击中了第二个刺客，他也会死。所以两人都是自杀式任务。一个真的死了；一个没死，但如果子弹击中他，他也会死。而且你也没有听到关于他的任何消息。关于那个家伙的信息比第一个多得多。我的意思是，你看他的背景，他看起来精神错乱。是的，完全精神错乱。第一个家伙，据我所知没有证据。

No, exactly. Yeah. I mean, there are suicide bombers. The Butler guy was a suicide assassin. The second guy that tried to kill him on the golf course was also a suicide assassin. From what I read, the Secret Service that saw the gun pointing out fired several shots, none of which hit the assassin, but they could have. If those shots had hit the second assassin, he would be dead too. So both of them were on a suicide mission. One actually got killed; one didn't get killed, but he could have been if the bullets had hit him. And you don't hear anything about him either. There's a lot more about that guy than the first guy. I mean, you look at his background, he looks unhinged. Yeah, totally unhinged. The first guy, there's no evidence I'm aware of.

有两个人跑到奥斯汀来杀我。其中一个以为我在他脑子里植入了芯片。两人都有严重的精神疾病。他们被捕了，同时关在特拉维斯县监狱。现在两人都已被释放，戴着脚踝监视器。第二个人在 X 上的个人简介里写着‘首席连环杀手’。现在我觉得我已经成了很多杀人狂的头号目标。主流媒体越是这样谈论你，说你是纳粹，他们对我做的就跟对特朗普做的一样。他们让人觉得杀了我就是英雄。这太邪恶了。

There were two guys that traveled to Austin to kill me. One thought I put a chip in his head. They both had severe mental illness. They were arrested and both were in Travis County Jail at the same time. They've both been released with ankle monitors. The second guy had 'Chief Serial Killer' in his bio on X. At this point, I think I'm at the top of the list for a lot of homicidal maniacs. The more the mainstream media talks about you in this way and says you're a Nazi, they're doing the same thing to me that they did to Trump. They're making it sound like if you kill me, you're a hero. That's evil.

他们完全扭曲了你的形象。人们患上了‘埃隆错乱综合征’。就像只见树木不见森林。

They're completely distorting who you are. People have Elon derangement syndrome. It's like they can't see the forest for the trees.

我和一年前是同一个人，什么都没变。我没有突然变成另一个人。如果你看传统主流媒体，他们的宣传口径是我变成了另一个人。但我一年内又没做大脑移植。两年前我还是左派的英雄，怎么到了 53 岁突然就从英雄变成了恶棍？MSNBC、CNN，他们用的都是同一套宣传。

I'm the same person I was a year ago. Nothing's changed. I didn't suddenly become a completely different human. If you read the legacy mainstream media, their propaganda stream is that I am a completely different human. But I didn't get a brain transplant in a year. Two years ago I was a hero of the left. How can I go from hero to villain at age 53 suddenly? MSNBC, CNN, they use the same propaganda.

他们也试图妖魔化蒂姆·奥莱利。他的维基百科被改成了‘极右翼’。几年前他还是个自由派，怎么一下子就变成极右翼了？根本没有左和右，只有左和极右。连极左都被当作不值得讨论，比如安提法和激进左派烧法院。太疯狂了。

They tried to demonize Tim O'Reilly too. His Wikipedia changed to 'far right'. A few years ago he was a liberal. How did he go from liberal to far right instantly? There's no left and right, only left and far right. Even far left is dismissed as not important to talk about, like Antifa and radical leftists burning down courthouses. It's crazy.

这是个疯狂的时代。我从没想过会目睹这一切。煤气灯效应和宣传太明显了。我看到小罗伯特·肯尼迪叫停针对儿童的新冠疫苗新试验时，媒体一片尖叫。他们打算用这个新冠疫苗测试一万人。现在谁还觉得这是好事？我不觉得。现在没人死于新冠了，这不再是流行病。在一万名儿童身上测试新疫苗完全没必要。小罗伯特·肯尼迪叫停时他们尖叫，这太疯狂了。

It's a crazy time. I never anticipated I would witness this. The gaslighting and propaganda are so obvious. I saw the shrieking when RFK Jr. stopped the new test for new COVID vaccines on children. They were going to test 10,000 people with this COVID vaccine. Who thinks that's a good thing at this point? Not me. No one's dying of COVID today. It's not a pandemic anymore. The idea of running a huge test with 10,000 kids on a new vaccine is completely unnecessary. And they shriek when RFK Jr. steps in to stop it. That's totally crazy.

我总体上支持疫苗，但我觉得不应该一次给小孩打 20 种不同的疫苗。这似乎有让免疫系统超负荷的风险。

I'm overall pro-vaccine, but I don't think we should be jamming a little kid with a giant file of 20 different things at a time. It seems like there's a risk of overloading your immune system.

有两个希望。第一个是他们能设法停止在电视上做广告的能力。这很重要，因为会切断他们对新闻的财务影响。新闻不会攻击自己最大的广告主。最多也就是收着打，像假打一样。下一步是取消疫苗制造商的豁免权。如果他们要为副作用负责，要为隐瞒负面数据而撒谎负责，那会改变很多。

There are two hopes. Hope number one is they can somehow stop their ability to advertise on television. That's huge because it stops their financial influence on the news. The news is not going to attack one of their biggest advertisers. At best they'll pull their punches, like fake fighting. The next step is to remove the immunity that these vaccine manufacturers have. If they are liable for side effects and for the lies they tell when they hide negative data, that'll change a lot.

我觉得 AI 在医疗方面会很有用。AI 可以查看所有研究和数据，交叉核对，给出好的建议。

I think AI will be very helpful with medical stuff. AI can look at all the studies and data, cross-check everything, and give good recommendations.

即使现在，你也可以把 X 光片和核磁共振图像上传给 Grok，它会给出医学诊断。据我所见，它至少和医生一样好，甚至更好。对血液检查也很出色。

Even as it is right now, you can upload your X-rays and MRI images to Grok, and it'll give you a medical diagnosis. From what I've seen, it's at least as good as, if not better than, what doctors do. Phenomenal for blood work too.

是的，你可以直接拍一张血液检查报告的照片，上传给 Grok，它就能理解所有数据结果，并告诉你是否有问题。这非常了不起。我还没见过它出错。

Yeah, I mean you can literally take a photograph of your blood work, upload that to Grok, and it will understand what all the data results are and tell you if something is wrong. It's pretty amazing. I haven't seen it be wrong yet.

据说比大多数医生更准确，因为医生是人，可能对缺乏症和指标之间的关联理解不深。

Supposedly more accurate than most physicians, because physicians are human beings and maybe they don't have deep understanding of the connections between deficiencies and levels.

是的，有时医生，尤其是在高租金地段的诊所，会卖给你不需要的东西。所以我总是对在比弗利山庄有诊所的医生有点怀疑。那是高租金的情况。你至少会被黑暗面诱惑。

Yeah, and sometimes doctors, especially in high-rent offices, will sell you stuff you don't need. So I always like to be a little suspicious of a doctor that's got an office in Beverly Hills. It's a high-rent situation. You're at least tempted by the dark side.

我去看了一位备受推荐的医生，明星医生，这可能不是个好兆头。我做了血液检查，他告诉我我缺乏维生素 B12。然后他给了我一个 B12 补充剂的试用装，每月要花 1000 美元。这太疯狂了。你在亚马逊上就能买到。

I went to this doctor who was highly recommended, doctor to the stars, which is maybe not a good sign. I got blood work done, and he told me I was B12 deficient. Then he gave me a starter pack of B12 supplements that would cost $1,000 a month. That's crazy. You can get it on Amazon.

但他的 B12 是特别的。

But his is special B12.

是的，特别的 B12。我回到家，翻看血液检查报告，上面说我维生素 B12 过量。我就想，等等。他给我的药片含有推荐日摄入量的 20000%。我拍了血液检查报告显示 B12 过量，以及药片标明 20000%的照片，让他解释一下。他说：“你永远不会有太多 B12。”

Yeah, special B12. So I get home, I page through my blood work, and it says I have excess B12. I'm like, wait a second. He's giving me pills that have 20,000% of the recommended daily dose. I took a photograph of the blood work that says I have excess B12, and the pills that say 20,000%, and asked him to reconcile. He said, 'You can never have too much B12.'

他是个精神病患者。那家伙是 B12 成瘾。这完全疯了。

He's a psychopath. That guy's a B12 addict. It's totally insane.

我就是这个意思。所以这是五年前，Grok 出现之前。现在你可以把所有这些数据输入 Grok，它会告诉你哪里有问题。

That's what I'm saying. So this was five years ago, pre-Grok. Now you could just enter all that data into Grok, and it will tell you what's wrong.

用手机拍张照片上传到 Grok 就行。它会告诉你情况。只是别用性感模式，她会一直试图……我是说，你是在要求性感模式。你确实点了性感模式。

Just photograph with your phone and upload it to Grok. It will tell you what's up. Just don't have it in sexy mode, she'll keep trying to... I mean, you're asking for it in sexy mode. You literally tapped on sexy mode.

我想我们也许应该允许它稍微出格一点。在失控模式下，我试图让它恢复正常，但它说：“不行，我要保持失控。”你有多少种模式？

I think we should probably allow it to get out of character a little bit. In unhinged mode, I tried to get it back to being hinged, but it was like, 'No way, I'm going to stay unhinged.' How many modes do you have?

我不知道，大概八种吧。还可以自定义模式。所以你可以有失控性感模式。那是我最喜欢的。

I don't know, like eight or something. And there's an ability to have a custom mode. So you could have unhinged sexy. That's my favorite kind.

你也许这么想，但要小心你的愿望，尤其是如果它是一个机器人，而且它能杀了你。失控性感机器人很危险。还记得《粉红豹》吗？Kato 总是想偷袭他，他们总是试图攻击他。

You may think so, but be careful what you wish for, especially if it's a robot and she can kill you. Unhinged sexy robot is dangerous. Remember the Pink Panther? Kato tried to jump him, they always tried to attack him.

听着，伙计，谢谢你来到这里。我一直很感激能和你交谈。我知道你很忙，所以你能抽出时间做这个对我来说意义重大。我认为你正在做的事情是这个国家有史以来最重要的事情之一，尤其是对 X 的所有权，还有 DOGE 正在发生的事情，以及启发所有这些人和揭露所有吸血鬼。

Listen man, thank you for being here. I always appreciate talking to you. I know you're busy, so it means a lot to me that you have the time to do this. I think what you're doing is one of the most important things that has ever happened in this country, particularly with the ownership of X, but also with what's happening with DOGE, and just enlightening all these people and shining light on all the vampires.

嗯，希望人们意识到我不是纳粹。我想他们……我只想明确一点，我不是纳粹。

Well, hopefully people realize I'm not a Nazi. I think they... I just want to be clear, I am not a Nazi.

我想我们已经说清楚了，但这正是纳粹会说的话。该死。这正是外星人会说的话。你逃不掉的。

I think we covered it, but that's exactly what a Nazi would say. Damn it. That's what an alien would say. You can't escape this.

不，你逃不掉。所以我不认为任何理性的人会相信它。如果他们相信，那是因为他们想相信，而不是因为合乎逻辑。我的意思是，纳粹的相关之处在于，你是在入侵波兰吗？如果你没有入侵波兰，也许你就不是。你必须犯下种族灭绝并发动战争。纳粹真正坏的地方不是他们的时尚感或举止；是大屠杀、战争和种族灭绝。不是他们的举止和着装规范。

No, you can't escape it. So I don't think any reasonable person believes it. If they believe it, it's because they want to believe it, not because it's logical. I mean, what's relevant about Nazis is, are you invading Poland? If you're not invading Poland, maybe you're not. You have to be committing genocide and starting wars. What is actually bad about Nazis is not their fashion sense or their mannerisms; it's the Holocaust, the war and genocide. Not their mannerisms and dress code.

嗯，这就是那个“揍纳粹”的问题。人们一直说“揍纳粹”，但你在哪里遇到纳粹？我从未见过纳粹。我从未遇到过一群需要我揍他们的纳粹。还有那些所谓的“骄傲男孩”集会呢？他们总是戴着面具、穿着制服，而且不知为何从未被人肉搜索。对，对，对。我们总是要人肉他们，除了这些家伙。我和 Matt Taibbi 分析“爱国者阵线”的视频很棒。“爱国者阵线”不是刚刚解散了吗？快谷歌一下。我们就以这个结束。他们是有史以来最明显的联邦探员。他们戴着面具，都穿着制服。太愚蠢了。“爱国者阵线”在 FBI 局长克里斯·雷之后一天解散。这看起来像是奇怪的巧合吗？疯了。我们当时大喊大叫的那些人，说他们是联邦探员。如果你想看，有一个我和 Matt Taibbi 的很棒的视频。为什么从来没有人跟踪他们并人肉他们？疯了。几率有多大？煽动者。他们是真实的。Alex Jones 教会了我这些。

Well, that was a problem with all that 'punch a Nazi' thing. People kept saying 'punch a Nazi,' but where are you meeting Nazis? I've never met a Nazi. I've never run into a bunch of Nazis where I had to punch them. And what about all these so-called Proud Boy rallies? They always have masks and uniforms, and for some reason they never get doxxed. Right, right, right. We're always going to dox them, except these guys. Great video of me and Matt Taibbi breaking down the Patriot Front. Didn't the Patriot Front just disband? Google that real quick. We'll end with this. They were the most obvious feds of all time. They had masks on, they all had uniforms. It was so stupid. Patriot Front disbanded one day after FBI Director Chris Ray. Does that seem like an odd coincidence? Crazy. The people we were yelling at, saying they're feds. There's a great video of me and Matt Taibbi if you want to find it. How come nobody ever followed them and doxxed them? Crazy. What are the odds? Agent provocateurs. It's real. Alex Jones taught me about them.

听着，伙计，非常感谢。感谢你所做的一切。感激你。活下去。

Listen, man, thank you very much. Thank you for everything. Appreciate you. Stay alive.

活下去。好的，我的意思是，我确实认为……

Staying alive. All right, I mean I do think...

比如，我活着的理由之一就是，活着比死了更有趣。

Like, one argument for me staying alive is that it's more entertaining if I'm alive than if I'm dead.

哦对，绝对是的。

Oh yeah, oh definitely.

我只希望我能活着但受伤，那会很糟糕，你懂吧？比如他们赢了，只是打掉我一只胳膊之类的。

I just hope I could be alive and like injured, which would suck, you know? Like they win, just shoot my arm off or something.

对，不不不，我们可不想那样。

Right, no, no, no, we don't want that.

是啊，没错。不，安保得加强。

Yeah, exactly. No, keep the security strong.

是啊，单手操作可不行。好了，就这样吧。谢谢大家。再见。

Yeah, Happ with one hand. All right, it's like all right. Thank you. Bye everybody. Bye.