设计未死：Figma CEO Dylan Field 谈 Config 大会、社区与 AI

Dylan Field，Figma 的联合创始人兼 CEO。我听说这是设计界的 Coachella，但我现在亲眼看到了。预计会有 1 万人到场。来参会的都是些什么公司？

Dylan Field, co-founder and CEO of Figma. I heard this was the Coachella for design, but I'm literally seeing that. So, there's 10,000 people that are expected to come. What kind of companies are representing the crowd?

大部分是小公司。不过说真的，这次是国际性的。人们来自世界各地，不只是科技或软件行业。你能想到的都有。软件、媒体、广告、内容，你能想到的任何角色都有。

Pretty much small ones. But no, really. I mean, it's international. People come from all over the world, not just tech or software. It's everything you can imagine. Any role you can imagine in terms of software and media, advertising, and content.

我是说，你比谁都清楚。注意力经济是真实存在的。熬夜很难。我认为这不仅需要人的引导和意图，还需要有自己的观点。光戴上思考帽是不够的，你得真正去思考。

I mean, you know this better than anyone. Attention economy is real. Staying up's hard. I think that it takes not only human steering and human intent, but also it takes a point of view. It is not enough to wear a thinking cap. You have to actually think.

埃隆·马斯克曾说过：“如果产品足够特别，就不需要 logo。”你怎么看？

Elon Musk once said, "If a product is special enough, it needs no logo." What do you think about that?

谢谢你邀请我。

Thank you for having me.

谢谢邀请我。

Thanks for having me.

欢迎来到 Config。我是说，我听说这是设计界的 Coachella，但我现在亲眼看到了。还没开始，就已经人满为患了。

Welcome to Config. I mean, I've heard this was the Coachella for design, but I'm literally seeing that. It hasn't started yet, and it's already packed people.

今天是第零天。

It is day zero.

那今天有什么活动？

So, what goes on today?

嗯，今天最重要的是我们有 Config Commons。这是你领取胸牌的好时机，这样明天就不用排长队了。有一次我们的主题演讲延迟了一个小时，非常尴尬。

Well, today we got Config Commons, most importantly. And it's a good time for you to get your badge, so that we don't have a long line tomorrow. One time we had like an hour keynote delay. It was very embarrassing.

真的吗？

Really?

是的，所以我们现在有预注册。但也会给大家提供食物、休息区，让大家交流。我觉得这真的很酷，因为人们总是能在这里和老朋友重逢，同时也有机会认识设计社区里的很多人。这是一个非常特别的社区。这不仅对 Figma 而言，对整个设计界都是如此。

Yeah, so we have a pre-reg thing now. But also try to get people food, hang out spaces, get them to mingle. I think it's really cool because people are always reconnecting with old friends here, but also they have a chance to just meet so many people in the design community. And it's a really special community. And that's not just for Figma, it's just for design more broadly.

所以预计会有 1 万人来。

So, there's 10,000 people that are expected to come.

是的。

Yep.

来参会的都是些什么公司？

What kind of companies are representing this crowd?

大部分是小公司。不过说真的，这次是国际性的。人们来自世界各地，不只是科技或软件行业。你能想到的都有。你能想到的任何角色都有，从领导层到我们学生项目的学生。所以，是的，各种人都有。

Pretty much small ones. But no, really. I mean, it's international. People come from all over the world. And not just tech or software. It's everything you can imagine. And any role you can imagine, from leadership to students that are part of our student programs here. So, yeah. It's all over the place.

太令人兴奋了。好，我们试着穿过人群。

It's pretty exciting. Okay, we're going to attempt to walk through the crowd.

好，我们走吧。

Okay. Let's go for it.

已经有狗仔队跟着你了。我们看看会怎样。

Already had some paparazzi on you. So, we'll see how this goes.

我觉得他们是冲你来的，你知道的。

I think they're coming for you, you know.

不，他们不是冲我来的，Dylan。这明明是 Config，Figma 的会议。好，你办这个多少年了？为什么一开始要办这个？

No, they're not, Dylan. This is literally the Config like Figma conference. Okay, so how many years have you been doing this and why start it in general?

是的，我们是在 2020 年开始的，就在疫情之前。这实际上是我们的第 10 届 Config，因为我们在旧金山 Config 之后还举办了国际 Config。我们开始的原因，基本上是世界各地开始出现用户群。然后从那时起，随着用户群真正开始发展壮大，我们想找个方式把大家聚在一起。起初我们讨论了一些想法，比如，哦，也许几百人。我们决定搞大一点，比如 800 人。结果瞬间售罄。所以从那时起，我们就在计划，好吧，下次要办得更大。结果因为疫情，实际上变得更大。所以，现在这变成了一个远程会议。

Yeah, so we started in 2020, right before the pandemic. And this is actually our 10th Config, because we've done international Configs that are fast follows to the Config in SF. The reason we started, we had basically user groups starting to pop up all around the world. And then from there, as the user groups started to really gain momentum, we wanted some way to bring everyone together. And at first we were kicking around ideas like, oh yeah, maybe like a few hundred people. We decided let's go big, like 800 people. And that sold out instantly. So then from there we were planning to right afterwards like, okay, next time's going to be really big. Well, it actually ended up being even bigger because of the pandemic. And so, it was like, this is going to be a remote conference now.

天哪。

Oh my god.

第一次我们非常幸运，因为我想，在美国疫情全面爆发、世界停摆的 3 周前，我们有机会把大家聚在一起。我无法想象如果提前 3 周会是什么样子。

We got so lucky the first time because we were able to, I think, 3 weeks before the pandemic started in full in the US, the world shut down. We had the chance to bring everyone together. And I can't imagine what it would be if it was 3 weeks earlier.

是啊，太疯狂了。

Yeah, that's insane.

是啊。

Yeah.

那么，现在的大新闻，我认为你基本上已经反驳了，就是“设计已死”。

So, the big headline right now, which I think you have pretty much disproven, is that design is dead.

是啊，我不……

Yeah, I don't...

为什么设计没有死？

Why is design not dead?

看看你周围。

Look around you.

不，我是说，我觉得现在奇怪的是，每个人都在贬低其他角色。所以，比如，你知道，我看到太多工程师说，我不知道，你需要一个 PM 或设计师，而 PM 说，我不需要工程师或设计师，设计师又说，也许我不需要 PM 比不需要工程师更甚。所以为什么会这样？我认为我们正处于一个暂时的阶段，人们真的对他们能用 AI 做什么感到兴奋。

No, I mean, I think that the weird thing right now is everyone is kind of putting down all the other roles. So, like, you know, I'm seeing way too much of engineers saying, I don't know, that you need a PM or a designer and the PM's like, I don't need the engineer or the designer and the designer's going, maybe I don't need the PM more than the engineer. And so like why is that happening? And I think that we're in a temporary phase of people really getting excited about what they can do with AI.

是啊。

Yeah.

但还没有意识到他们所有的局限。嘿。所以，我认为你能做的事情确实令人兴奋，但团队的价值也非常重要。我觉得我们正在触及一个临界点。

But not yet realizing all the limitations that they have. And hey. And yeah, so I think that there's like it's truly exciting what you can do, but also the value of a team is really important. And I think we're hitting a line here.

我们在排队。这是什么？这是在排队领食物吗？

We're in a line. What is this? Is this for food?

是的。

Yeah.

我听说你们，不是要跑题，但我听说你们的周边会在 5 秒内售罄。

I heard that you guys, not to deviate too much, but I heard you guys are going to sell out of merch in like 5 seconds.

我希望不会。希望它能持续久一点。但是的，所以我认为永远独自完成所有事情的想法非常孤独。而且我认为，如果你想构建可扩展的真实系统，是为了广泛地构建正确的东西，而不仅仅是快速的东西。那么我认为重视设计非常重要。不仅从视觉和美学角度，还要从用户体验角度，比如理解用户、理解你周围的文化。设计远不止视觉和美学。

I hope not. Hopefully it lasts a little longer. But yeah, so I think it's very lonely the idea that you're just going to work alone on everything forever. And I think that if you want to build scalable real systems, it's for broadly build the right thing, not just like something fast. Then I think it's really important to lean in design. Not just from a visual and aesthetic standpoint, but also from user experience standpoint, from like understanding the user, understanding the culture around you. Like design is so much more than visuals and aesthetic.

是啊。

Yeah.

这只是冰山一角，但我认为真正有希望的是，我看到现在很多工程师……我希望我们的摄像师没有绊倒。我们看到现在很多工程师开始对 Figma 感兴趣。随着这种情况发生，他们开始真正上手，因为你快速构建了一些东西，这很棒，但然后你会想：“好吧，我现在能真正把它做好吗？”

That's just the tip of the iceberg, but what I think is really promising is how I'm seeing so many engineers now that are... I hope our camera man did not trip. We're seeing so many engineers now just get interested in Figma. And as that happens, they're starting to really pick it up because you go build something really fast, that's awesome, but then you're like, "Okay, can I like actually now make it great?"

对。我是说，我觉得有趣的是，Figma 不仅为那些根本不知道如何设计的普通人解锁了设计，而且你的软件真的很容易使用。它非常直观。但现在你把代码融入其中，所以现在工程师真的在编码设计。

Right. I mean, what I thought was interesting is like Figma not only unlocked design for just normal people who like just didn't really know how to design anything, but your software is like really easy to use. It's very intuitive. But now you're involving code into it, and so now engineers are literally coding design.

是的。而且我认为我们明天发布的内容将更加朝这个方向发展。

Yep. And I think that the aspects of like what we're launching tomorrow will be even more in that direction.

真的吗？

Really?

所以，我对此非常兴奋。来吧。谢谢。

So, I'm really excited about that. Go for it. Thank you.

谢谢。

Thank you.

好。

Okay.

是啊，现在我们进来了，所以会安静一点。

Yeah, so now we're inside, so that'll be a little calmer.

我们在这里做个 360 度旋转。转过来。

Let's do a little 360 here. Come around.

这是最空的时候了。那么，这一切是怎么布置的？人们到底在哪里交流之类的？

This is the emptiest it'll be. So, how is it all set up? Where do people really mingle and all that kind of stuff?

呃，交流会在各处进行，但楼下更像是主舞台主题演讲，那里有很多互动体验和可以探索的区域。

Uh, the mingling will occur everywhere, but downstairs is going to be more like main stage keynote, and that's like where there's a lot of activations and area to explore.

那是你最喜欢的部分吗？

Is that your favorite part?

嗯，主舞台主题演讲？

Um, the main stage keynote?

是啊。

Yeah.

我通常不太记得它，所以一旦过了那个环节，我就会想……

It, I, I don't usually remember it, so once I get past it, then I'm like...

断片了？

Out?

是啊，有点像断片体验。

Yeah, it's a little bit of a blackout experience.

那样。

That.

是啊。但你之后可以在网上看回放，然后你会想：“哦，我说了什么？”

Yeah. But you can watch it later online, and then you're like, "Oh, I said what?"

是啊，我之前和 Michael 聊过这个，我看了以前所有的 Config 视频，然后我想：“天哪，这真的很酷。”

Yeah, I was talking to Michael about this before, but I was like watching all of the previous Config videos, and I was like, "Shit, this is really cool."

是啊，所有分论坛的内容都很棒，我们请到了非常出色的演讲者，也度过了传奇般的时光。实际上，我最喜欢的之一就是 Teenage Engineering 的 Jesper。不知道你有没有看过那个。

Yeah, the content on all the tracks are amazing, and we've had such incredible speakers and like had legendary times, too. I actually, one of my favorite ones was Jesper from Teenage Engineering. I don't know if you saw that one.

没有。

No.

我采访了他。是的，他真是个有趣的人。之后一定要看看那个。

I got to interview him. And yeah, he is a character. Definitely watch that one later.

好的。

Okay.

嗯。

Yeah.

今年有你期待的演讲者吗？

Are there any speakers this year you're excited about?

有很多我期待的演讲者，但有两个让我特别兴奋。一个是 Holly Herndon。她是一位极具远见的艺术家，我觉得人们没有意识到她看得有多远。你知道，她很早就涉足一些非常特定、古怪的 NFT 使用方式，或者当时叫别的什么。她很早就用 AI 开源了自己的声音，你知道，那是在 2021 年或 2020 年左右。我的意思是，她运作的时间尺度和我们其他人不一样。

So, so many speakers that I'm excited about, but two that I'm like off-the-wall excited about, one is Holly Herndon. She's a total visionary artist who I think people don't appreciate like how far ahead she sees things. You know, she was into very specific like quirky ways of using NFTs or whatever it was called then, early on. She open-sourced her voice with AI early on, you know, this is back in like 2021 or something, 2020. I mean, it's just like the time scale that she's operating on is different than the rest of us.

是啊。

Yeah.

Grant Sanderson，YouTube 上的 3Blue1Brown，是另一个我认为会带来精彩演讲的人，我迫不及待想看了。他是我关注了很久的人，也很幸运能称他为朋友。他做的数学讲解视频简直不可思议。他真的利用图形和设计，让他的解释非常精巧，他投入了很多心血。而且他一直是很多人生活中的老师。

Grant Sanderson, 3Blue1Brown on YouTube, is another person that I think will give a great talk, and I can't wait to watch it. He's someone that I've been following for a long time. And lucky to call friend. And he does these explainer videos for math that are just incredible. And really uses graphics and design to be really craft forward in his explanations, and he puts so much care into them. And just has been a teacher for so many of our lives.

你在“氛围数学”吗？

You're vibe mathing?

那只是好玩。

That's just for fun.

那是什么意思？

What does that mean?

这，这，这，这只是一种精神错乱的形式，你知道的。

It's, it's, it's, it's just a form of psychosis, you know.

好吧。

Okay.

直到它不是，但我们会看到的。

Until it's not, but we'll see.

我认为模型在数学方面相当不错，比如纯数学。这有点像我通常所处的不可验证领域的一剂解药。所以，对于 Figma，我的意思是，一切都是凭感觉，对吧？就像你试图弄清楚，有时很清楚，比如，你真的没有居中 div。就像，AI，学会居中 div。但我认为更多时候，你知道，更像是，好吧，实际上你在这里给出了很多非常相似的样式。你的范围不够广，如果语言模型提供商向我们寻求反馈，或者我们试图引导它。我们正在对我们正在做的事情、别人正在做的事情进行评估。很多评估本质上都是不可验证的。最终必须由人工判断。你可以为此设置更自动化的方法，但你仍然需要人类意图。而像数学这样的形式领域，数学是最形式的。如果你正确设置了形式系统，这些系统很容易出错。我认为这只是一个很好的轶事，与 Figma 的体验形成对比。

I think that the models are really decent at math, like pure math. And it's a bit of an antidote to the non-verifiable domains that I'm usually in. So, for Figma, I mean, it's all vibes, right? Like you're trying to figure out sometimes it's very clear, okay, like literally you didn't center the div. Like learn to center divs, AI. But I think more often, you know, it's more like, okay, well, actually you're giving a lot of styles that are very similar here. You're not as broad in your range as you could be if an LM's provider is asking us for feedback or we're trying to steer it. And the evals we're running on stuff we're doing, stuff others are doing. Like a lot of it is inherently non-verifiable. It's like got to be human judged at the end of the day. And you can set up more automatic methods for that, but you still have that human intent. Whereas formal domains like math, math is formal as it gets. If you set up the formal systems correctly, which are pretty easy to mess up. And I think it's kind of just a nice anecdote in contrast to like Figma experience.

我喜欢这个。非常出人意料。嗯，你刚才谈到了一些演讲者。还有其他人让你期待吗？

I love that. It's very unexpected. Um, so you're talking about some of the speakers. Were there anybody else that you're excited about?

呃，太多了。我想，嗯，我现在满脑子都是主题演讲。

Uh, so many. I think that, well, I'm in keynote brain right now.

是啊。

Yeah.

而且我认为主题演讲会非常棒。所以，我们会有一群 Figma 团队成员展示一些令人难以置信的东西。

And I think that keynote will be really awesome. So, we're going to have a bunch of Figmates that are showing just incredible stuff.

我知道，我喜欢这样。就像我们从大标志开始，然后突然你被包围了。

I know, I love that. It's like we started by the big sign and then all of a sudden you got swarmed.

哦，好吧，那些是我经常见到的人，是的。我们有一个很棒的团队。实际上，你见过的 Ian……

Oh, well, those are people I see all the time, yeah. We have a great team. Actually, Ian who you met...

嗯哼。

Mhm.

我高中四年级时和他一起上过一门课。我们一起上实数分析课，那是我第一次见到他。然后他后来随机申请了 Figma。他甚至没告诉我。我说，你为什么不告诉我？然后我知道了。我说，这是我见过的最聪明的人之一。拜托，我们能让他进来吗？

I was in a class in my senior year of high school. We were in a real analysis class together and it's where I first met him. And then he randomly applied to Figma at some point. And he didn't even tell me. I was like, why didn't you tell me? And I found out. I was like, this is one of the smartest guys I've ever met. Like, please can we get him in?

天哪。

Oh my god.

当然，他仍然经历了完整的流程。

He still went through the full loop, of course.

向 Ian 致敬。好了，我们要过去在 Pantone 休息室坐下来。

Shout out to Ian. All right, so we're going to head over and sit down for the Pantone lounge.

非常独家。有一个……

It's super exclusive. There's a...

就我们两个。

Just two of us.

是啊。

Yeah.

好了，Dylan Field，我们在 Pantone 休息室。

All right, Dylan Field, we're in the Pantone Lounge.

休息室。我们挺过来了。

Lounge. We made it through.

我们穿过了疯狂的人群，他们尖叫着你的名字，拍照。

We made it through the crazy crowd who was screaming your name and taking pictures.

也许我有点夸张了。外面有一群很棒的人。所以，我很高兴你能在那里。

Maybe I exaggerated a little bit. It was a great group out there. So, I'm glad you got to be there.

那么，你是怎么说服他们或者他们的老板，他们应该请一天假的？

So, how did you convince all of them or their bosses that they should take the day off?

我想如果你说服他们和他们的老板来，会有帮助。所以，这更像是正在发生的事情。

I think if you convince them and their bosses to come, it helps. So, that's more of what's happening.

所以，他们都玩得很开心。因为我们在 Pantone 休息室，我想问你一个非常紧迫的问题。

So, they're all having a lot of fun. Because we're in the Pantone Lounge, I want to ask you a very pressing question.

好的。

Okay.

你最喜欢的颜色是什么？我不会问参考编号。

What is your favorite color? I'm not going to ask about ref number.

紫色？

Purple?

是啊，我是个紫色控。但紫色范围很广。所以，很难精确定义是哪种紫。我有点喜欢这个范围，你知道吗？有时它更像偏红的紫，或者更偏蓝。但是，是的。我也觉得当人们擅长色彩理论时，那很了不起。我不是。

Yeah, I'm a purple guy. But purple has a broad range. And so, it's very hard to define exactly where in purple. I kind of like the range, you know? And sometimes it's like more of a reddish purple or some more bluish. But, yeah. I also think it's amazing when people are great at color theory. I am not.

不是。

No.

我知道自己并不擅长色彩理论，但我非常尊重那些擅长的人。

I know enough to know that I'm not amazing at color theory, but I have the utmost respect for those that are.

你还没检查过你的色彩波。你知道那也是一回事吗？

You haven't gotten your color waves checked. Do you know that's like a thing, too?

比如我是不是四色视者之类的？

Like if I'm what, tetrachromatic or something like that?

比如你是不是，我觉得这有点像韩国的一种东西，他们会给你做色彩理论分析，看看你的气场是什么，你应该穿什么颜色。

Like if you're like, it's a, I think it's like a Korean thing where they like color theory you and like see what your aura is and what colors you should be wearing.

你知道你自己的吗？

Do you know yours?

不，我觉得不知道。

No, I don't think so.

但没有。我的意思是，我认为构图和色彩是一项真正的技能。很多人真的为此训练。有些人掌握的程度是其他人达不到的。

But no. I mean, I think that composition and color is like a real skill. And a bunch of people really try and train for this. And some people have got it to just the degree that others don't.

当你找到它们时，那真是令人惊叹。我们要更认真对待这件事。好吗？你最近上了《黑手党》节目。哦，是的。你打到了第三局。你现在是节目的明星了。迪伦，第一次就被杀掉的感觉怎么样？

And it's amazing when you find them. We're going to take it even more serious. Okay? You were recently on Mafia. Oh, yeah. You made it to game three. You're now the star of the show. Dylan, how does it feel to be killed on the first try?

嗯，具体来说，第一局我第一晚就被黑手党杀了，第二局我是黑手党，嗯，绝对没打出我最好的水平。我说实话。然后第三局，呃，我提出了一个还算不错的论点，嗯，但也不是我最好的表现，然后第一晚就被村民杀了。呃，是的，表现不太好，但真的很好玩。呃，我重看了第三集，我觉得真正的明星其实是帕尔默。是的。直到最后他得意地笑。抱歉，给你的听众剧透了。呃，但最后他几乎要赢的时候，他有点得意地笑。那是我第一次想，哦，我本来能看出来的。另外两个我本来能看出来，因为他们有破绽。但帕尔默，他完全没有。他全程都是同样的能量，所以我看的时候真的很惊叹。

Um, to be specific, so there's game one where I was killed by the mafia the first night, game two where I was the mafia, and um, definitely did not play my best game. I'll be real. And then game three, uh, made a thought, a decent argument, um, but not my best work either, and got killed by the village first night. Uh, it's yeah, not the best showing, but it was a lot of fun. Uh, and I was rewatching the third episode, and I think the star is actually Palmer. Yeah. Until the very end when he smirks. Sorry, spoilers for your listeners. Uh, but at the very end he kind of smirks when he's like almost won. That was the first time I was going, oh, I would have figured it out. Uh, the other two I would have figured out cuz they had tells. But Palmer, there was like nothing. He was just the same energy throughout, so I was pretty wowed watching it.

你从中学到了什么关于人类心理学的知识？

What have you learned about human psychology from that?

呃，从《黑手党》里，我觉得学不到太多关于人类心理学的东西。嗯，我玩过不少《黑手党》或者《狼人杀》，你知道，同一个游戏。人们对于怎么称呼它有宗教般的争论。呃，但我觉得，嗯，你知道，可能是人们的注意力持续时间很短，你可以转移话题，引导对话方向。嗯，实际上，我后来有一阵子不玩这个游戏了。呃，因为我发现这是个双输的局面。要么你确实玩得好，但你输了，因为事后人们常常会说，你怎么能这样？我那么信任你。就像，我觉得很糟糕。要么你就像我那样真的输了。嗯，所以我更喜欢当主持人，呃，这绝对不是练习，但就是这样。

Uh, from mafia, I think there's not much to learn about human psychology from mafia. Um, I played a decent amount of mafia or werewolf, you know, same game. People have religious wars around what to call it. Uh, but yeah, I think that um, you know, probably that people's attention spans are short, that you can diverge and kind of divert conversation, um, at some point I stopped playing the game, actually. Uh, because I figured out that it was a lose-lose. Either you actually do well and you've like lost because people afterwards often times are like, how could you? I trusted you. Just like I feel terrible. Or you've like literally lost like I did those games. Um, and so I prefer to moderate and uh, definitely not a practice, but it's a one.

超级好玩。

It's super fun.

索纳能做到那一点真的很酷。我觉得他很久以前就有那个愿景了，我完全把功劳归给他，因为他让这一切成真了。

Was really cool that Sona uh did that. I think he's had that vision for a long time and I just give him all the credit for like making it happen that way.

完全同意。

Totally.

更多人也应该这么做。他们只需要冒大风险，大胆尝试，然后全力以赴。

More people got to do that. They just got to take a big risk and a big swing and just go for it.

我的意思是，我觉得这会是咱们对话的主线，因为现在有太多尝试，在到处都是模板化 AI 的深渊里建立品牌。所以无论是 Com 的营销、媒体、品牌、产品，我们都有点被困在这个中间的正态分布曲线里。那么人们，尤其是用 Figma 的人，应该如何逃离我所说的“零品味的永久底层阶级”呢？

I mean, I think that that'll be kind of like a through line of most of our conversation because there's like so many attempts right now of like building a brand in the abyss of like templated AI literally everywhere. And so whether it's like Com's marketing, media, brand, product, like we're kind of like stuck in this like bell curve of the middle. And so how should people, especially with Figma, like escape what I kind of call like the permanent underclass of zero taste?

呃，这真是一个完美的梗融合。呃，那个，嗯，我得把它偷来用在我们的营销里。嗯，我觉得基本上，首先，你知道，品味和那种区别是存在的，而且它们非常不同。嗯，我觉得首先重要的是要承认，如果你只是用语言模型做所有事情，让它字面上告诉你它想怎么构建东西、怎么设计东西，你得到的是它想给你的东西，而且它会在某个点上偏离你脑海中的想法，变成它处理后的结果。我确实认为通过工作流，我们有像 Figma Weave 这样的东西，比如，你可以把模型输出传递到工作流中，并在这个过程中真正引导它。这可以让你更接近，我认为，非确定性的生成式工作流，更接近意图，而且是系统化的。但总的来说，是的，那些只是说“好，给我设计这个东西”的人，你知道，你会得到平均水平的东西，它不会脱颖而出。在一个软件、媒体、广告和内容比以往任何时候都多的世界里。我的意思是，你比任何人都更清楚这一点。注意力经济是真实的。呃，脱颖而出很难。我认为这不仅需要人类的引导和意图，还需要一个观点。我认为这是人们经常失败的地方，因为拥有一个观点有点可怕。就像一个真正的观点。要大胆，要冒险。呃，所以我充满希望，实际上我认为现在到处都有好的早期迹象，人们已经在内化这一点，即使他们还不能用同样的语言来表达。

Uh, as a perfect like meme fusion there. Uh, the um, I'll have to steal it for our marketing. Um, I think basically, first of all, you know, there's taste and there's sort of the distinction on there and they're very separate. Um, I think that first it's important to acknowledge like if you just use an LM for everything and have it literally, you know, tell you how it wants to go build a thing, how to go design a thing, you're going to get something that it wants to give you and it's kind of diverge at point from whatever is in your head to however it processed it. I do think through workflows, and we have like something you know like called Figma weave, for example, where you can take model outputs and you can pass them through workflow and really steer it along the way. And that can get you closer to, I think, non-deterministic generative workflows that get closer to intent and are systematic. But in general, yeah, people that are just like, "Yeah, design me the thing." You know, you're going to get the average and it's not going to stand out. And in a world where there's just more than ever in terms of software and media and advertising and content. I mean, you know this better than anyone. The attention economy is real. Uh, standing out is hard. And I think that it takes not only human steering and human intent, but also it takes a point of view. And I think that is something that people fall down on all the time because it's kind of scary to have a point of view. It's like a real point of view. And to be bold and to take a risk. Uh, and so I'm hopeful and actually I'm think there's good early signs of this everywhere right now that folks are already internalizing this even if they can't speak about it like in the same words yet.

嗯哼。

Mhm.

呃，而且他们已经从市场中学到了，意识到他们必须去下更大胆的赌注，做更大的尝试。当他们这样做的时候，我认为他们会真正释放出创造力的爆发，我们会看到，嗯，你知道，很多以前从未尝试过的事情被尝试。所以这是我迫不及待想看到的。

Uh, and they're already kind of from the market teaching them realizing they have to go take these bolder bets, bigger swings. And as they do that, I think they're going to uh really unlock just this explosion of creativity and we're going to see um you know, so many things tried that haven't been tried before. And so that's something that like I cannot wait for.

本期节目由我最喜欢的 Brex 赞助。你花什么，就会成为什么。我拒绝把时间花在那些本不该存在的工作上。费用报告、追发票、手动结账。那些正在构建未来的公司，从 Vercel、OpenAI、Anthropic、Granola 到 Deepgram，都做出了同样的选择。他们都用 Brex。Brex 是一个智能金融平台，将卡片、费用和银行整合到一个单一的技术栈中，内置智能体式金融。AI 智能体自动处理费用，在支出发生前执行政策，并在几分钟内结账。这就是为什么 Sourcegraph 用 Brex，这样我就可以把时间花在构建上，而不是琐碎的工作上。是时候用 Brex AF 了。了解更多，请访问 brex.com/sorcery。也就是 b r e x.com/s o u r c e r y。再见。

This episode is brought to you by Brex, my favorite. You become what you spend on. And I refuse to spend my time on work that shouldn't exist. Expense reports, receipt chasing, and manual closes. The companies building what's next from Vercel, OpenAI, Anthropic, Granola, and Deepgram all made the same call. They all run on Brex. Brex is the intelligent finance platform that combines cards, expenses, and banking into a single stack with agentic finance built in. AI agents that handle expenses automatically, enforce policy before spend happens, and close your books in minutes. That's why Sourcegraph runs on Brex, so I can spend time on building and not busy work. It's time to get Brex AF. Learn more at brex.com/sorcery. That's b r e x.com/s o u r c e r y. Bye.

Turing 正在用需要真实专业知识和现实世界判断力的任务来训练下一代 AI。这就是为什么像 Nvidia、Anthropic、Salesforce 和 Gemini 这样的公司都与 Turing 合作。Turing 基于真实操作轨迹构建逼真的强化学习环境和数据系统。这是前沿实验室训练超级智能所需的那种基础设施。访问 turing.com/s o u r c e r y。

Turing is training the next generation of AI with tasks that require real expertise and real-world judgment. That's why companies like Nvidia, Anthropic, Salesforce, and Gemini partner with Turing. Turing builds realistic reinforcement learning environments and data systems based on real operational traces. The kind of infrastructure frontier labs need to train superintelligence. Visit turing.com/s o u r c e r y.

你发过一条推文，转发了一张图表，显示发布的应用数量，以及这些应用的实际使用情况。我们其实刚刚和马克·平卡斯聊过这个。他是个超级产品型的人。他绝对关注这个。但在那一点上，你说执行很廉价，但设计和创造力实际上非常非常重要，能把精华和糟粕分开。但就这一点而言，人们应该承担什么样的风险？你觉得现在有什么被忽视了？

There was a tweet that you posted retweeting a graph of like number of apps that are being released and then the actual usage of those apps. We actually just like I talked about that with Mark Pincus. He's super product guy. He definitely pays attention to that. But in that point, you were saying execution is cheap, but design and creativity are actually very, very important and separates the wheat from the chaff. But in terms of that like what kind of risks should people be taking? Like what do you see is kind of like overlooked right now?

我觉得被忽视的东西太多了。

I think so much is overlooked.

我的意思是，从你究竟要解决什么问题，到如何打造品牌、公司采取什么立场、如何与人建立联系，以及你想通过品牌和营销，还有应用软件本身传递什么情感，这一切都包括在内。而在软件方面，我认为，你知道，我不仅渴望看到更多交互模式的尝试，更希望人们真正理解什么是用户的核心需求，并全力以赴去实现它。套用你已经见过的模式要容易得多。但我认为，外面还有一片巨大的未被探索的空间，需要很长时间才能做对。那是一种风险，因为你可能最终无法命中。

I mean, everything from what problem are you even tackling to how do you brand, what positions do you take as a company, how do you connect with people, and what emotions are you trying to bring through your brand and marketing, but also through the application software. And then for the software side, I think you know, I'm just eager to see not only more interaction patterns tried, but really folks understanding like what is the core thing that people need and pushing all the way to get there. It's so much easier to apply patterns that you've already seen. But I think that there's just like this huge unexplored space out there of stuff that you know, it takes a long time to get right. And that is a risk because you might not actually hit.

嗯。

Mhm.

但如果你能真正走完全程，把系统想得非常透彻，并把它记在脑子里，也记在团队脑子里——这你知道，更难传达。有时候你甚至得在公司内部把它“梗化”。但如果你能做到这一点，并且能想出更多新颖的方式让人们与系统互动，那我认为，你知道，那将会真正令人惊叹。举个例子，我仍然震惊于我们处于提示词时代。这已经多久了？GPT-3 发布到现在有 5 年了吧？我记得是 2021 年，2021 年 6 月，GPT-3。

But if you can actually go all the way and think through the system really well and hold it in your head and hold it in your team's head, which is you know, even harder. Um to communicate it. Like you kind of have to memeify it inside your company sometimes. Uh but if you can do that and you can come up with like more novel ways for people to interact with systems, that's where I think you know, it'll really be amazing. And the example is I'm still shocked that we're in a prompting age. Like it's been what? 5 years since GPT-3 now? I think it's 2021, June 2021, GPT-3.

真的吗？

Really?

我觉得是。呃，而且

I think so. Uh and

那太疯狂了。

That's crazy.

是啊，我们还在不停地用提示词。嗯，还有其他探索潜在空间的方法。我只是觉得，随着模型成为软件的一部分，你与模型交互的界面将会发生巨大演变。我们会在那里看到大量的探索。

Yeah, and like we're still prompting away. Um there are other ways to explore latent space. Um I just think that the interfaces for how you interact with models will evolve so much as the degree that models are part of software. We will see a ton of exploration there.

当我们谈到品牌、个性和建立信任时，AI 确实削弱了人们对科技和主流媒体的很多信任。我觉得这简直比冰还冷。那么，什么能建立一个值得信赖的品牌呢？

When we're talking about brand and personality and forming trust, AI has really stopped a lot of trust in technology and just kind of like mainstream media. It's like I think it's like literally worse than ice. So, what builds a trusted brand?

嗯，首先，我会说 AI 真的是一个双峰案例，对吧？因为有些人，比如 Fora 或 Claude 的用户，真的爱上了模型。呃，我指的不只是他们喜欢它的输出。他们是对模型有感情。我认为那就是信任。然后还有一群人，他们觉得这可能会抢走我的工作。我听到人们在说它会如何毁灭世界或经济之类的，充满末日论调。所以这两者天差地别。就像超级粉丝对超级批评者。但就一般品牌而言，我认为是长期的持续性。你如何以一种人们能在脑海中预期和建模的方式出现，你知道，坚持你的价值观，以正确的方式持续出现，并真正以客户利益为重去做事。如果你不这样做，那你还在做什么？所以我也要回到蒂姆·奥莱利常说的一句话。我职业生涯的第一份实习就是在奥莱利媒体，我很喜欢那里。他们对我非常好，我非常感激他们。蒂姆·奥莱利总是说“创造比你获取的更多的价值”。我认为这极其重要，当你看到 AI 的“单例”以及那些你可能认为想成为“巨石”的公司，他们并没有说他们不想那样做。嗯，那会有点像黑洞，把所有东西都吸进去。我确信那不会成为最终的结果。我认为他们都会变得比那聪明得多。而且我认为大多数人一开始甚至不想那样做。但是，你知道，平台的定义是你在平台之外创造的价值比平台本身更多。呃，这也是微软的定义。嗯，就像在 Windows 上创造的一切的“GDP”是多少？回到 Windows 是微软最高优先级的时代，他们希望建立在 Windows 上的东西的“GDP”大于他们 Windows 产品线的收入。我认为这是一种非常特别的思考生态系统的方式。总的来说，我认为我们作为一个行业越是倾向于这种心态，如果公司大声说出来并展示出来，那么我认为人们会有更多的信任，但是末日论……

Well, AI, first of all, I would say is that it is really bimodal case, right? Because you've got folks that are literally in the case of, you know, a Fora or Claude, like in love with the model. Uh and I don't just mean like they really like its outputs. Like they have affection for the model. I would say that's trust. And then you've got people that are like this taking it could take my job. I'm listening to things people are saying about how it's going to destroy the world or the economy or whatever and doom. And so that is couldn't be further apart. Like the super fans versus the super detractors. But in terms of just generally brand I think it's consistency over time. And how do you actually show up in a way that people can expect can model in their heads and you know, keep living your values, keep showing up the right way and really doing things with the customer's interest at heart. If you're not doing that, what are you doing? So I also go back to um a line that Tim O'Reilly would always say. I would my first internship professionally was like at O'Reilly Media and I loved it there. They were amazing to me and I'm so grateful to them. Tim O'Reilly would always talk about create more value than you capture. And I think that is extremely important and when you're perceiving you know, singletons for AI and folks that you know, you perceive might want to become monoliths and they're not saying that they're not going to want to do that. Um there's going to kind of be like a black hole and suck it all up. Which I'm sure that that's not going to be what ends up happening. I think that they're they're all going to get a lot smarter than that. And I think most don't even want to do that in the first place. But yeah, you know, the definition of a platform is that you're creating even more value outside of the platform than you are from the platform itself. Uh this is also the Microsoft definition. Um it's like what's the GP of everything created on Windows? Uh back when, you know, Windows was the top priority of Microsoft. Uh they wanted that sort of uh GDP of stuff built on Windows to be greater than the revenue of their Windows line. And I think that's a really special uh way to think about ecosystem. And yeah, overall, um the more that I think we lean into that kind of mindset as an industry and yeah, if companies are vocal about that and show that, then I think um people have more trust, but the doomerism um

嗯。

Mhm.

也必须停止。而且必须以充分的理由停止。

has to stop as well. And it has to stop with good rationale.

嗯。

Mhm.

呃，你知道，我们必须提出我们所能提出的最好的论点，不是关于什么可能出错，而是我们将如何解决它，并为人类描绘一个乐观的未来愿景。

Uh you know, we have to come up with the best arguments we can for not what can go wrong, but how we're going to go address it and paint an optimistic future vision for humanity.

对。我注意到情绪正在转向生产力，而不是失业。

Right. I've been seeing a shift in sentiment towards productivity, not job loss.

嗯。

Mhm.

所以，虽然我觉得这有点奇怪，但新的北极星有点像拥有比员工更多的智能体，因为这会帮助装备你的员工，你会跑得更快，作为一个组织你能做更多。你可以更具进攻性，我认为你和 Figma 在这方面做得非常好。嗯，然后我的意思是，你也能在 Figure AI 看到这一点。比如他们现在办公室里的人形机器人比员工还多。显然，他们会卖掉它们，但即便如此。

And so while like I guess it's weird, but kind of the new North Star is to have more agents than employees cuz it'll help equip your employees and you'll run faster, you'll be able to do more as an organization. You can be more on the offensive side, which I think you and Figma have been doing really well. Um and then I mean, you could also see this with like Figure AI. Like they now have more humanoid robots at their office than employees. Obviously, they're going to sell them, but still.

是啊，那有点不同，但确实。

Yeah, that's a little different, but yeah.

这有点不同，但我很好奇，嗯，从你的角度来看，随着 AI 智能体的激增，这会如何改变软件的内部动态、你的销售方式、你正在创造的产品等等？

It's a little bit different, but I'm curious um from your standpoint as the proliferation of AI agents increase, like how does that change the internal dynamics of software and how you're selling and the products you're creating and all that?

嗯，我认为这有很多种可能的发展方式，所以我们得拭目以待，但总的来说，首先，我认为甚至不清楚如何定义智能体的单位。

Um I think that there's a bunch of ways this could play out and so we'll have to see, but overall, first, I think it's not even clear how do you define the unit of an agent.

是啊。

Yeah.

呃，所以那是个难题。但总的来说，嗯，如果人们试图进行推理，并使用你的软件和平台上的 AI，那么你应该提供很好的服务。那应该会为客户带来价值。

Uh so that's kind of a difficult one. But yeah, in general um it should be the case that there's great services that you offer if folks are trying to do inference um and use uh AI with your software and your platform. That should result in like value to customer.

嗯，而且我认为这应该是由人类驱动的。嗯，总的来说，我认为人类在循环中将是引导你走向最佳结果的方式。呃，我认为到目前为止，我与 AI 的所有经验都表明，在正式领域，在可验证的事情上，只要有足够的 IQ 点数，你就能得到惊人的结果。然而，判断力似乎并不纯粹与给模型增加 IQ 点数相关。嗯，设计似乎也不与给模型增加 IQ 点数相关。呃，这些似乎是其他你必须弄清楚如何训练的能力。而我特别好奇的是判断力。嗯，因为，直觉上你知道，那些非常擅长战略的人，我甚至还没有在人类中找到如何找到他们的共同特征。

Um and it should be the case that that's driven I think by humans. Um overall I think that humans being the loop will be the way that you steer towards the best outcomes. Uh and I think that uh all my experience with the AI so far have shown that on formal domains, things that are verifiable uh you can get to amazing outcomes with enough IQ points. And yet judgment is like somehow not purely correlated with just adding IQ points to the model. Um design certainly does not seem to be correlated with adding IQ points to the model. Uh these seem to be other capabilities that you have to figure out how to train. And judgment I'm really curious about in particular. Um because yeah, just intuitively you know, the folks that are really good at strategy like I have not even found with humans the common characteristic of how to go find them.

还有设计，我觉得，你知道，你怎么教一个模型对用户产生真正的同理心？你怎么让它不仅能阅读用户访谈的转录稿，还能理解那个用户的人际关系、他们在谈论自己遇到的问题时声音里的语调变化，以及这为什么重要。并且把这一切和他们的世界联系起来，真正对他们的世界观和他们所处的境况产生同理心，然后为他们去构建。我觉得这真的很难。

And design, I think, you know, how do you teach a model true empathy for a user? How do you make it so that they can not just read a transcript of a user interview but understand the relationships that user has, the inflections in their voice when they're talking about the problems they have, and how it matters. And connect that with their world and actually have that empathy for their worldview and where they're coming from to build for them. I think it's really hard.

现在人们最应该问的最大问题是什么？

What is the biggest question right now that people should be asking?

实际上，我觉得，你知道，我们是在星期二录制这期节目的。也许我今天早上还没看新闻，也许这已经变成另一个问题了。但就目前而言，美国政府与 Anthropic 之间有一个实时发生的情况，他们在讨论一种越狱（jailbreak）。我甚至不确定“越狱”这个词是否恰当，但他们担心的那个使用场景似乎很重要。

Actually, I think that, you know, we're recording this on a Tuesday. Maybe I haven't looked at the news this morning. Maybe it's already a different question, but as of right now, we've got a live situation with the US government and Anthropic where they're discussing a jailbreak. I'm not even sure if jailbreak is the right word, but the use case they're concerned about seems important.

嗯。

Mhm.

但我想说的是，越狱（jailbreaking）是一个研究不足的领域，而且我确实认为，我们需要一种不同的姿态来对待让人们去破解越狱模型这件事，以便对它们进行实战检验，就像我们用 HackerOne 那样。当然，实验室们已经在运行一些项目，但我认为，外界需要有更多的激励去做这件事，而且我们需要定义它到底意味着什么。越狱在它们所做的事情范围上非常宽泛。而且我认为，如果不先定义什么是越狱，我们甚至无法进行这样的对话。所以我要说的一个问题就是：什么是越狱？

But I would say that jailbreaking is something that is understudied, and I actually think that there needs to be a kind of different posture towards trying to get people to break jailbreak models in order to battle-test them, the same way that we do with HackerOne. There are programs that are being run by the labs, of course, but I think that there needs to be way more incentive out there to do that, and we need to define what it means. Jailbreaks are very wide in terms of the spectrum of what they do. And I don't think we can have a conversation like this without even defining what a jailbreak is. So that's one question I would say, is what's a jailbreak?

你自己似乎也在做一些越狱方面的事情，所以……

You seem to be doing some jailbreaking yourself, so...

呃……

Uh...

什么是……

What is the...

嗯，我不知道什么是越狱，所以……不，我的意思是，我觉得有一段时间我很喜欢从外部向内推理，试图弄清楚模型是如何工作的。我现在更喜欢的是，使用开放权重模型，研究可解释性研究之类的，当你真正能获得算力去做这些的时候。这挺有趣的。但总的来说，我认为，只要和模型聊得足够久，就会进入一种基本上可以称之为模型越狱的状态。

Well, I don't know what a jailbreak is, so... No, I mean, I think that there's a period of time where I enjoyed just trying to figure out how models work, to reason from the outside in. I'm more enjoying now, just with open-weight models, looking at interpretability research and whatnot, when you can actually get access to compute for that. It's pretty fun. But overall, I think, just talking with models long enough leads to states that you could call a jailbreak for basically the model.

是的。

Yeah.

但再说一次，什么是越狱？并不是说你必须做一些花哨的 JSON 操作。那是人们喜欢在网上把它普及化的方式，但我的意思是，你完全可以只是和它们聊天，问它们问题。

But again, what is a jailbreak? It's not like you have to do some fancy JSON thing. That's what people like to popularize it online with, but I mean, you can just talk to them and ask them questions.

你是在做 token 最大化吗？

Are you token maxing?

呃，我觉得，既是也不是。对于我正在做的事情，我经常试图让智能体运行更长时间，只要它有一个明确的目标。但是，是的，我的意思是，我本可以运行一个智能体集群之类的东西，但我没有这么做。我们在 Figma 有很多人正在这样做，并且取得了成果，当你拥有真正理解他们试图构建的基础设施的人时，我们在那里能做的事情真是令人惊叹。而且他们继续前进，你知道，他们已经是 10 倍效率了，他们可以通过让智能体真正合理地分解任务，再次实现 10 倍的提升。

Uh, I think that, yes and no. I try to have, for stuff that I'm working on, often times I'm trying to get the agent running longer, as long as it's got a defined goal. But yeah, I mean, I could be running like an agent swarm or something and I'm not doing that. We have plenty of people at Figma that are, and are getting results though, and it's amazing how much we can do there when you have folks that really understand the infrastructure that they're trying to build. And they go and, you know, they're already 10x and they can 10x themselves again by having agents really break up tasks properly.

所以，有一件非常有趣的事情，我大概一年前采访过来自 Thiel 奖学金的 Danielle Strachman。而且……

So, one thing that was really interesting, I had an interview with Danielle Strachman from the Thiel Fellowship, maybe a year ago now. And...

顺便说一句，她非常棒。

She's wonderful, by the way.

太酷了。那真是一次有趣的采访。她提到了一件事，而且她在采访中提到了你，我想，有好几次，但你是早期的 Thiel 奖学金获得者。她说你非常流利（hyper fluent）。我的意思是，即使你现在谈论 LLM 和 AI，你肯定比我认为的普通人更深入细节。那么，你为什么认为拥有这种深度好奇心和高度流利的特质很重要？

So cool. That was a really fun interview. The one thing that she brought up, and she named you, I think, a couple of times in the interview, but you were an early Thiel Fellow. She said that you were hyper fluent. I mean, even you talking about LLMs right now and AI, you're definitely more in the weeds than I think common folk. So why do you think it's important to have that trait of deep curiosity and hyper fluency?

嗯，那是怎么发展起来的？

Well, how did that develop?

嗯，我只是觉得这个世界太神奇了，而且，我不知道。我几乎看到任何东西都会很感兴趣。所以我没有一个很好的答案，但可以肯定的是，如果你不是一直在学习，或者找到从任何对话、任何你遇到的事情中学习的方法，那就像，为什么不呢？世界上有太多有趣的东西了。所以，是的，我觉得我们在地球上的时间如此有限，所以让我们充分利用它，尝试学习、连接各个点，弄清楚我们如何围绕正在发生的事情创建一些框架，然后打破它们。我们活着以及外面有什么，这本身就是一个巨大的谜。

Well, just think the world's like amazing, and I don't know. I kind of just look at anything and I'm pretty much interested in it. So I don't have a great answer, but definitely, if you're not always learning or finding a way to learn from any conversation, anything that you can encounter, it's like, well, why not? There's just so much interesting stuff out there in the world. And so, yeah, I feel like we get such a limited time on Earth, so let's make the most of it and try to learn and connect the dots and figure out how we create some frameworks around what's happening and then break them. It's just a great mystery that we're alive and what's out there.

今天的节目由 Fundrise 旗下的 VCX 赞助，它是私人科技领域的公开股票代码，让各种规模的投资者都能投资风险投资。了解更多信息，请访问 getvcx.com。有些人可能还没听说过，我们的赞助商 Public 刚刚推出了一个叫“生成资产”的东西，它以一种我从未见过的方式将 AI 带入投资领域。它的工作原理是这样的：你输入一个想法，比如“拥有正自由现金流的 AI 驱动的供应链公司”或“年营收增长超过 25% 的国防科技公司”。然后 Public 的 AI 会派遣一群智能体，扫描每一只美国股票，评估它们，并立即围绕你的论点构建一个自定义指数。真正突出的是它如何清晰地解释为什么包含每只股票。在你投资之前，你甚至可以根据标普 500 指数对你的想法进行回测，这样你就是在有真实背景的情况下做决定，而不是猜测。除了生成资产，Public 还让你在一个地方投资股票、债券、期权、加密货币。当你从另一个平台转移投资时，他们甚至会给你不设上限的 1% 匹配。如果你想建立一个真正反映你论点的投资组合，请访问 public.com/sorcery。由 Public Investing 付费。完整披露信息在描述中。创始人在 Deel 上扩展更快。几分钟内为任何国家设置工资单。在任何地方雇佣任何人。快速处理签证，然后回到构建上。访问 deel.com/sorcery。也就是 d e e l.com/sorcery。

Today's episode is sponsored by VCX by Fundrise, the public ticker for private tech, allowing investors of all sizes to invest in venture capital. Learn more at getvcx.com. Some of you may not have heard this yet, but our sponsor Public just launched something called generated assets and it brings AI into investing in a way I've honestly never seen before. Here's how it works. You type in an idea like AI-powered supply chain companies with positive free cash flow or defense tech companies growing revenue over 25% year-over-year. Public's AI then dispatches a swarm of agents that scan every single US stock, evaluates them and instantly builds a custom index around your thesis. What really stands out is how clearly it explains why each stock is included. And before you invest, you can even backtest your idea against the S&P 500, so you're making decisions with real context, not just guessing. And beyond generated assets, Public lets you invest in stocks, bonds, options, crypto, all in one place. They'll even give you an uncapped 1% match when you transfer your investments over from another platform. If you want to build a portfolio that actually reflects your thesis, visit public.com/sorcery. Paid for by Public Investing. Full disclosures in the description. Founders scale faster on Deel. Set up payroll for any country in minutes. Hire anyone anywhere. Get visas handled fast and get back to building. Visit deel.com/sorcery. That's d e e l.com/sorcery.

你在 Thiel 奖学金期间学到最多的是什么？那是什么样的经历？

What did you learn the most while you were a Thiel Fellow? What was that like?

总的来说，这是一次非常特别的经历。我是 Thiel 奖学金的第二届，也就是 2012 年。或者抱歉，更确切地说，我是 2012 年开始的。这是一个为期两年的奖学金，所以我和我那一届的同学关系很好，他们都在做很棒的事情。而且其中一些人至今仍是我非常亲密的朋友。还有第一届的一些人，他们也一直是我生活中的密友，是我的导师，也是我在各种事情上寻求建议的人。

It was a really special experience overall. I was in the second year of the Thiel Fellowship, so 2012. Or sorry, rather, I started in 2012. And it's a two-year fellowship, so the class I was with I got to know well, and they're doing amazing stuff. And still some of them are really dear friends. And there's also folks from the first class, too, who have stayed in my life as close friends and people who have been mentors and people I've looked to for advice on all sorts of things.

你知道吗，从那个群体里学到的东西简直无法估量。但我也觉得，年轻的时候创业太孤独了。比如在泰尔奖学金之前，我在 Flipboard 实习。在 Flipboard 很棒，同事们都很好，我和他们一起玩，但他们都是 30 多岁，而我 20 岁。

You know, the amount of learning from that group off the charts. But also, I think it's just so lonely to start a company when you're younger. Like I was doing an internship at Flipboard before the Thiel fellowship. And at Flipboard it was awesome. My co-workers were great. I hung out with them, but they're like in their 30s, and I was 20.

嗯。

Yeah.

而且，你知道，我的朋友们还没毕业。我在湾区长大，但我在北湾的朋友们都在忙自己的事，距离也更远。能和这群人在一起、和他们社交，对我来说非常重要。有些人可能不需要，但对我来说，每周见一次人，除了我的联合创始人——我深爱他，但他周末的爱好是写他的编译器项目，那就是他放松的方式。他是个特别特别聪明的大脑，绝对的天才。但对我来说，那是我从这个项目中得到的最大价值，我甚至没想到。两年 10 万美元，太棒了。但社区更特别。

And just, you know, my friends hadn't graduated yet. I grew up in the Bay Area, but my friends in the North Bay, they were doing their own thing, and it kind of was further to go. The chance to just be with this group of people and socialize with them, like for me was very important. Some people probably don't need that, but I don't know, like once a week seeing a human, and other than my co-founder, you know, who I love dearly, but you know, his preference on the weekend was to write work on his compiler project. That's how he unwound. You know, he was a special special brain, total genius. But yeah, for me, that was like the biggest value that I did not even expect from that program. 100K over 2 years, amazing. But the community was just even more special.

我们现在要来个出其不意的问题。

We're going to go for a curveball right now.

好的。

Okay.

我知道这些都很有趣，但我们有个来自 Elad Gil 的紧急问题。

I know all of that is super fun, but we have this urgent question from Elad Gil.

嗯。

Yeah.

或者 Alod。我不知道你喜欢怎么发音。

Or Alod. I don't know how you like to pronounce it.

这本身就是个大争议。

It's a great controversy itself.

确实。我采访一开始就问了这个，我肯定两次都念错了。好像有四种念法。

It really is. I started my interview with it, and I'm pretty sure I mispronounced it both times. Like I guess there's like four ways to pronounce it.

这是好消息。

is the good news.

那你准备好了吗？

So, are you ready for this?

不知道。

I don't know.

我都在笑了，还没说呢。好吧，冷静。Dylan，一个这么瘦的人，怎么能

I'm like laughing, and I haven't even said it yet. Okay. Um, composure. Dylan. How can a man who is so skinny

活得这么“肥”？P H A T，那个肥。

live a life so fat? P H A T, the fat.

多亏了 Elad Gil 的指导。

With great mentorship from Elad Gil.

我不知道。

I don't know.

是什么引发了这个问题的？

What sparked that question?

这个问题？我不知道什么意思。

The question? I don't know what that means.

我真的不知道，但他发来了，所以我就问了。

I genuinely don't know, but he sent it, so I asked it.

我觉得这是夸奖。我就当是夸奖了。

I think it's a compliment. I'm going to take it as a compliment.

我觉得你活得很好。我觉得他就是这个意思。我喜欢这个。好了，我们还有 Christian Garrett 的问题。

I think you're living well. I think that's what he meant. I love that. Okay. And then we have some from Christian Garrett, too.

好的。

Okay.

这些可没那么有趣，无意冒犯，Christian。

Well, these aren't as, no offense, Christian. These aren't as fun as that one.

那么，Figma 表现强劲。上次财报证明了这一点。我们也和 Mark Pincus 聊过这个。

So, um, Figma is on a tear. Last earnings really proved it. We talked about this with Mark Pincus, too.

酷。

Cool.

关于 AI 和企业软件，人们忽略了什么？

What are people missing about AI and enterprise software?

嗯。我觉得首先，市场有各种叙事。现在，叙事似乎是软件可能会……

Mhm. Um, I think that first of all, like there's, you know, market snapped narratives. Right now, the narrative seems to be like software is, you know, could put

好时机买入，非投资建议。

Good time to buy, non-investment advice.

但我认为很多软件会表现不错，甚至非常好。

But I think that a lot of software will do just fine or actually even amazing.

嗯。

Mhm.

那么，这种软件有什么特点？我认为网络效应很重要。网络效应不仅出现在社交和人际场景中，比如协作或社交网络，也出现在市场流动性中。

Um, and so then it's like what are the properties of that software? Well, I think that network effects matter. Um, I think network effects can show up not just in social and human situations, but all you know, in collaboration or social networks, but also in like uh marketplace liquidity.

嗯。

Mhm.

那本身就是一种网络效应。我认为客户群的分布

Um, that is its own network effect. I think the sort of distribution of customer base

嗯。

Mhm.

很重要。而且，我认为无聊的软件不容小觑。

matters. Um, and I would say that boring software is not to be undercounted.

嗯。

Mhm.

或者说人们会称之为无聊的东西。我不会说无聊。但可能有很多问题，每天面对这些问题的人并没有默认冲动去为它构建软件，但这是个大问题。最后，我认为你可以建立的数据流动性，以及它如何创造上下文，上下文如何在一个系统中创造能力，这本身就是一个飞轮。如果你把这个飞轮做对了，我认为它能为客户带来极大的价值，非常有用。所以，这就是我思考的很多内容。

Or things that people would call boring. I wouldn't call boring. But um, probably there are just so many things that you can find where the folks who are living the problem every day don't have that default impulse to go build software for it. And yet it's a huge problem. Uh, and finally, I would say that like the data liquidity that you can establish and how that can create context, how that context can create capability in a system that is its own flywheel. And if you get that flywheel right, um, I think it's very value accruing to the customer in a way that um can be extremely useful. So, that's a lot of the stuff that I'm thinking about.

而且每个人都是你的客户。

And everyone is your customer.

这是我学到的。

That's what I've learned.

我不确定是每个人，但我们很幸运，有很多优秀的软件公司和世界各地的公司在使用 Figma。

I'm not sure everyone, but we're lucky to have a lot of great software companies and companies around the world using Figma.

那我们聊聊演变吧。这是 Christian 的另一个问题，但 Figma 从设计到代码到开发，演变成了平台，现在又扩展到多产品。那么，平台下一步会走向哪里？

So, let's talk about the evolution a little bit. Um, this is another one of Christian's questions, but Figma evolved to platform from design to code to development and now multi-product expansion. So, where's the platform going next?

嗯，我认为既有冲动也有追求，就是如何把这些界面更紧密地结合在一起。当你在 AI 和生成方面做得更多时，在一个地方完成这一切而不用想从哪里开始，有巨大的机会。所以，这是我一直想用 Figma 实现的目标。这非常难。

Um, I think both there's the impulse and the like quest of how do you take these surfaces and bring them more together. When you are, we mean more in AI and generation? There's a huge opportunity in doing that in one place and not having to think about where do I start. And so, that's something that I've always wanted to accomplish with Figma. It's extremely hard.

嗯。

Mhm.

然后还有一个问题，就是在满足设计师所有需求方面，你能走多远，这些需求在增长且广阔。我是说，设计师们，等一下。我们现在从开发者那里得到的反馈。所以，我认为如果我们能同时做到这两点，并找到方法帮助人们创建自己的工具

Uh, and then there's also the question of like how broad can you go in terms of serving all the needs of a designer, which are growing and vast. I mean, designers, give me a second. The feedback we used to get from developers now. And so, I think that if we can kind of do both of those and find ways to help people create their own tools

嗯。

Mhm.

在平台上，与团队分享并从中获得价值，那就太棒了。

on the platform, share them with their team and get value out of that, that'll be really awesome.

最后。

Lastly.

嗯。

Yeah.

好吧，不完全是最后，但来自 Christian 的问题，你为什么这么看好 SpaceX？

Well, not really lastly, but from Christian, why are you so bullish on SpaceX?

我们就在 Pantone 休息室聊聊 SpaceX 吧，当然。

Let's talk about SpaceX in the Pantone lounge, sure.

现在就在我们房间里？

In the room with us right now?

是吗？嗯，首先，我觉得在 AI 和他们的云业务上有很多可看的。我真的不知道该怎么解读。所以，让我暂时把这些都抛开。

Are they? Um, well, first of all, I think there's tons to be seen on, you know, AI and their cloud business, I guess. Uh, I really don't know how to read that. So, let me just like remove all that for a moment.

嗯。

Mhm.

XAI 的部分。而是只谈非 XAI 的部分。我是说，SpaceX 是一个很好的例子，它拥有出色的天才，我认为他们非常有使命感，这些人才不断追求、征服一个又一个挑战。我认为人们对他们在地球上能做什么、在星际间能做什么以及太空长期的重要性缺乏想象力。而且，我认为有很多类别人们没想到他们会进入，但他们可能会进入。我相信这可能是一个非常非常重要的公司，对这个世纪和下个世纪都是。所以，我希望 Figma 也能跟随。

The XAI part of it. Uh, and instead just talk about the non-XAI part of it. I mean, SpaceX is a great example of a company where you've got amazing talent who are I think really missionary, and that talent, you know, goes and quests and conquers after challenge after challenge after challenge. And I think that people lack imagination when it comes to what they can do on Earth and also what they can do in the stars and how important space can be in the long term. Uh, and I think that there's many categories that folks don't think of them going into, which they will go into probably. Uh, and I believe it could be a very very important company, you know, for this century and the next. So, I hope Figma can follow, too.

埃隆·马斯克曾说过：“如果产品足够特别，就不需要标志。”

Elon Musk once said, "If a product is special enough, it needs no logo."

嗯。

Mhm.

你怎么看？

What do you think about that?

我实际上认为这是对的，但如果产品真的那么特别，那么它可能已经有足够的品牌特征，可以起到标志的作用。

I actually think that that's right, but also if the product is that special, uh, then I think it's probably got enough brand characteristics that it kind of functions as a logo.

嗯。

Mhm.

比如特斯拉汽车。你能把特斯拉的标志从车上拿掉吗？当然可以。但你大概还是知道那是特斯拉。如果你不知道，那对特斯拉来说就是个问题。而且他们也有标志。

And so, for example, a Tesla car. Like, can you take the Tesla logo off a Tesla car? Sure. But you probably still know it's a Tesla. And if you don't, that's a problem for Tesla. So, and also they have a logo.

嗯。

Yeah.

但我觉得总的来说，品牌系统可以发挥很大作用，品牌有很多方式可以呈现在人们面前。标志只是其中一部分。

But I think that overall, brand systems can do a lot with them, and there are many ways that brands can show up to people. A logo is just a part of it.

在节目结束前，Sorcery 很荣幸由 Brex 赞助，他们专注于绩效、明智支出，以及让初创公司或大型企业更快发展。我觉得绩效真的取决于你身边是谁，你受到谁的启发，也许是谁一路指导了你。在你的圈子里，或者在打造 Figma 的职业道路上，有没有真正启发过你的人？

As we close out, Sorcery is proud to be sponsored by Brex, and they're all about performance, spending smart, and moving faster as a startup or large enterprise. I think performance really comes down to who you surround yourself with and who you get inspired by, maybe who's mentored you along the way. Are there anybody in your circle or on your career path of building out Figma that's really inspired you?

太多了。我们有多少时间？我是说，你看，有些人指导过我，但他们自己都不知道，因为那是在 Figma 之前，也许在打造 Figma 的过程中我们互动不多，但他们的声音一直在我脑海里。比如来自 O'Reilly、LinkedIn、微软研究院的人。我觉得在 Figma 期间，加入董事会的那些人非常了不起，我非常感激他们，还有我们的员工。我们最早聘用的经理 Sho，当时是工程总监，他真正教会了我管理。在 Figma 之前我对此一无所知。而且总的来说，我们有实习生教过我东西。我们组织里任何地方都有人可以让你学习。还有社区，以及那些给我们提供宝贵反馈的人。我非常感激早期，今天也一样，那些坐下来给我反馈的设计师们。作为一家设计公司，我们非常幸运，因为我们的用户和客户就是设计师，他们受过训练，能给出好的反馈。所以我们得到的反馈比一般公司得到的要好得多，我从不认为这是理所当然的，我一直把它当作一种福气。不过，是的，我在任何地方寻找指导，我非常非常感激。

So many. How long do we have? I mean, look, there are people that have mentored me and have no idea, because it's from before Figma times, and maybe we didn't interact as much during the building of Figma, but their voices are in my head. You know, folks from O'Reilly, LinkedIn, Microsoft Research. I think that during Figma, the folks that I've got on the board have been incredible, and I'm very thankful for them, but also our employees. Our first manager hire, Sho, director of engineering at the time, he really taught me management. I didn't know anything about it before Figma. And just in general, we've had interns that have taught me stuff. We've had folks from anywhere in the org that I think you can learn from. And also the community, and the folks that have surrounded us with great feedback. I'm so grateful early on, but today as well, for the designers that have sat down with me and given me that gift of feedback. We are very lucky as a design company to have designers as users and customers, because they are trained to give good feedback. So the feedback we get is so much better than the average feedback that a company gets, and I never take that for granted, and I always count it as a blessing. But yeah, I look for mentorship everywhere, and I'm very, very grateful for it.

太棒了。我记得 Michael 提到你非常喜欢 Alan Kay。

Amazing. I think Michael mentioned that you really like Alan Kay.

Alan Kay 很了不起，还有很多其他人机交互和设计思想家，我觉得他们也非常出色。回顾过去，但我也认为我们需要回到 60 年代到 80 年代所做的那种工作，即首先思考使用计算机的根本方式是什么。以及有哪些可能性？我觉得现在我们唯一能看到这种探索的地方是 VR，在那里它主要体现在游戏场景中，但那里正在创造新的交互范式。这在软件中也可以存在。比如人们提到的最后一个大的创新，如果你看看共识意见，大概就是下拉刷新。

Alan Kay's awesome, and there are many other HCI and design thinkers that I also think are incredible. Looking back, but also I think that we need to get back to the sort of work that was done, you know, back in the 60s through 80s time frame, in terms of just what are the fundamental ways to think about using a computer in the first place. And what are the possibilities? I think the only place we're seeing it right now is kind of in VR, where it's really seen in the gaming context, but there are new interaction paradigms being created there. And that can exist in software, too. Like probably the last big one that people reference, if you just look for the consensus opinion, is pull to refresh.

嗯。

Mhm.

我们可以走得更远。如果你看看 iPad，为什么它就是一个大号的 iPhone？我觉得触控技术可以做的远不止这些，更普及的计算也是如此。而且当你进一步进入 AI 的世界，不同的设备、不同的形态，我觉得设计和交互的未来真的会很有趣。

Like we can go further. And if you look at an iPad, like why is it a big iPhone? I think that there's so much more you can do with touch technology, but also with just more pervasive computing. And also as you go beyond that into the world of AI and different devices, different form factors. I think the future of design and interactivity is really going to be fun.

比如 Snap 眼镜。

Like Snap Specs.

我们拭目以待。是的。

We'll see. Yeah.

太好了。非常感谢你，Dylan。我知道你现在很忙。有一万人在等着进场。

Well, awesome. Thank you so much, Dylan. I know you're so busy right now. There's 10,000 people waiting to come in the doors.

这真是……我只是……我们会看到的，但这很有趣，我对 Config 大会感到兴奋，也感谢你的到来。玩得开心。

This is... I'm just... we'll see it, but it's a lot of fun and I'm excited for the config and I'm thankful that you're here. Enjoy.

非常感谢。

Appreciate it.

嘿，我是 Molly。如果你喜欢我们的访谈，可以看看我们的通讯 sourcery.bc，我们每周发送一封包含顶级交易和科技头条的邮件，并且更深入地探讨我们的播客访谈。今天就订阅 Sorcery 吧。别忘了在 YouTube、Spotify、Apple 或其他你收听的地方订阅播客。链接在描述里，可以注册。

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