DHH 回应 Omarchy 的批评者（包括我）

以下是与 David Heinemeier Hansson（又名 DHH）的对话。你知道 David 在过去一年左右一直在非常努力地开发 Omarchy，最近 Omarchy 获得了大量关注，那里发生了很多事情。你也知道，我过去制作过一些对 Omarchy 相当批评的视频，但我是一个喜欢持有强烈但可轻易改变观点的人，而 Omarchy 正发展到让人无法忽视的阶段。他们筹集了超过 2000 万美元的资金。他们正在组建安全团队，我认为在桌面 Linux 的历史上，这里正在发生真正独特的事情。所以我邀请 David，因为我想更了解到底是什么驱动他做这一切。他为什么构建 Omarchy，以及项目现在正在发生什么。我们还讨论了安全以及更多内容。所以是的，我改变了对 Omarchy 的看法，在这个播客中你可以找到原因。享受吧。

The following is a conversation with David Heinemeier Hansson, also known as DHH. You know that David has been working very hard on Omarchy over the past year or so, and recently Omarchy has been gaining lots of popularity, and there's so much happening there. You also know that I made fairly critical videos about Omarchy in the past, but I'm a man who likes to have strong opinions, weakly held, and Omarchy is getting to a stage where it becomes impossible to ignore. They raised over 20 million in funding. They are setting up a security team and I think in like the history of desktop Linux, something truly unique is happening here. So I invited David because I wanted to know more about what is actually driving him to do all of this. Why is he building Omarchy and what is happening right now in the project. We also discuss security and much more. So yes, I have changed my tune on Omarchy and in this podcast you can find out why. Enjoy.

David，欢迎来到节目。这些天我每次打开 X，都只看到你和 Omarchy。Omarchy Omarchy。所以有很多事情在发生。让我们从那里开始。比如 Omarchy 现在发生了什么？你现在在做什么？

David, welcome to the show. Every time when I open X these days, I see just you and Omarchy. Omarchy Omarchy. So there's lots of things going on. So let's start there. Like what's going on in Omarchy right now? What are you working on right now?

是的，首先感谢邀请我。其次，一切都在同时发生，因为我们在 Omarchy 旗下启动了太多子项目，以至于连我自己都很难跟上，我现在每天大部分时间都花在这个项目上， literally 16 个小时。看到创造力、热情以及人们以某种方式享受计算机的爆发，真是令人难以置信，尤其是对于那些使用计算机很长时间的人，他们最初进入计算机世界时有惊奇感，也许这种感觉在途中丢失了，现在他们通过 Omarchy 重新找到了。所以我们能够结合艺术方面的创造力，我们有很多极具创造力的人制作美丽的主题、设计，并将其与硬核工程努力相结合，以确保系统安全、提高性能、构建我们自己的定制内核等等，我认为这非常特别，因为如果你从历史上看 Linux，有很多人在工程方面非常强，可以构建非常快速和安全的系统，但我希望不冒犯他们，但他们并不总是最擅长色彩协调。他们并不总是最擅长让东西看起来令人愉悦，因为他们让东西看起来功能性强，因为那是他们感兴趣的。我认为现在 Omarchy 正在弥合这两个世界之间的差距，艺术与工程之间，我们正在得到一些非常独特的东西。在我们甚至进入 Omarchy Quattro 发布的特殊性之前，这当然是 Agenda OS 的重点，即使你不是程序员，即使你不是 Linux 专家，你现在也可以将你的可变操作系统变异成你想要的任何东西，这在头三周内，我想我们有了 3000 个插件创建，那就是 3000 个迷你应用或某些情况下是主要应用，由许多从未编程过的人创建。他们只是在我们五分钟前称之为 vibe coding。我认为这个词实际上需要退休，因为此时即使是非常精通这项技术的人也在 vibe coding，我认为有一些负面含义与当前模型可用的智能不符。所以把它放在一边。兴奋点真正在于让更多多人能够用他们的计算机创造东西，使其成为自己的，分享他们遇到的东西，并形成一种新型社区。我认为如果你看看 Linux 社区，也许还有更大的科技社区，有些时候有点粗糙。比如历史上的规范是 RTFM，阅读手册。很多人因此被拒之门外，因为氛围并不那么愉快。所以，我试图创建一个美丽的、可变的机器，实际上至少对我来说，在首次安装时就是完美的计算机，同时也创建一个充满那些对自己构建的东西感到快乐的人们的社区，他们想分享，不介意有新的人进入社区，他们不知道一切，实际上什么都不知道，但仍然愿意帮助他们，对事情感到兴奋，真正专注于我们能够共同创造的进步，乐观主义，不是总是末日论。只是这里是一个互联网空间，我们将对计算机感到快乐。我们将与它们一起玩乐。我们将使它们美丽。然后你可以去别的地方，如果你想，我不知道，为此感到沮丧。

Yeah, thank you first of all for having me on. And second of all, everything everything all at once is going on because we have spun up so many sub projects within the Omarchy fold that even I am having a difficult time keeping up and I literally spend 16 hours a day most days on this project right now. And it's simply incredible to see the outburst of creativity and enthusiasm and just people having fun with computers in a way where they experience something they haven't in a while especially for folks who've used computers for a long time and originally had a sense of wonder when they got into computers and then maybe that sense of wonder got a little lost along the way and now they found it again with Omarchy. So the creativity that we're able to combine from the artistry side, we have a lot of people who are extremely creative making beautiful themes, making all these designs and marrying that with a hardcore engineering effort to secure the system, to make it more performant, to build our own bespoke kernels, to what have you, is quite special, I think, because if you look historically on Linux, there's been a lot of people who were very strong on the engineering side and could build very fast and secure systems, but I hope I don't offend them here, but they weren't always the best at color coordination. They weren't always the best at making things look pleasant because they made things look functional because that was what they were interested in. I think what's going on with Omarchy right now is that we're bridging the gap between those two worlds, between art and engineering, and we're getting something very unique. And as before we even go into the specialness of the Omarchy Quattro release which is of course the focus of an Agenda OS something you can change even if you're not a programmer even if you're not a Linux specialist you can now mutate your Malible operating system into becoming whatever you want it to be which has just in the first I think three weeks we had 3,000 plugins created that's 3,000 mini apps or major apps in some cases created by people who in many cases never programmed. They were simply vibe coding as we were calling it five minutes ago. I think that term actually needs to retire because at this point even the individuals who are very versed in this technology are vibe coding and I think there's some negative connotations associated with that that do not be the current intelligence we have available in the models. So put that aside. The excitement is really around just enabling so many more people to create things with their computer to make it their own to share things that they come across and combining for a new type of community too. I think if you look at both the Linux community, but perhaps also the larger tech community, there's been times where it's been like a little rough. Like the historic norm here was RTFM, read the manual. And a lot of people get turned off by that because the atmosphere is just not that pleasant. So, I'm trying to create both a beautiful, malleable machine that's actually the perfect computer, at least for me, on first installation, but also a community that's full of people who are simply happy about what they're building, and want to share and don't mind that there's new people coming into the community who don't know everything, who know nothing in fact, and are still willing to help them and be excited about things and really focus on just the progress we've been able to create together, the optimism, not be P doom all the time. Just here's a space on the internet where we're going to be happy about computers. We're going to have fun with them. We're going to make them beautiful. And then you can go somewhere else if you want to just, I don't know, be depressed about it.

好的。哇。所以，那里已经有很多要解读的了。嗯，我认为任何关注你一段时间或最近的人都已经看到了小丑和马戏团以及那些被说过的事情。嗯，但你确实有一个观点，嗯，其中一些项目，一些事情被所谓的戏剧所包围。人们以与技术方面无关的方式互动。所以

Okay. Wow. So, that's already a lot to unpack there. And um well I I think anyone who has been following you for a while now or for recently has seen the the clowns and the circus and the things that's got that that been said. Um but you do have a point there where um some of these projects, some of these things are surrounded by let's call it drama. There's people interacting with each other in ways that have nothing to do with the tech side of things. So

是的，

yes,

我认为这是围绕 Omarchy 发生的非常鼓舞人心和有趣的事情。我是说 Omarchy 还是

I I think that's a very inspiring and interesting thing that's happening around Omarchy here. Am I saying Omarchy or

你说对了。Omarchy。我甚至有一个特殊的发音网站来保持那个 R 不发音。

You got it right. Omarchy. I even I have a special pronunciation website to keep that R silent.

是的，没错。

Yeah, exactly.

你可以随便叫它。有 GIF 和 GIF 以及许多其他单词有不同的发音。有些人叫它 omari。没关系。你想叫它什么都行。我叫它 umachi。是的。Omachi。Omachi。

You can call it whatever you want. There's GIF and GIF and a lot of other words that go back with different pronunciations. Some people call it omari. Fine. Whatever you want to call it. I call it umachi. Yeah. Omachi. Omachi.

所以我认为这是正在发生的事情中最酷的事情之一，因为你有如此大的品牌和你的充满活力的个性。将其带到 Linux 及其周围的社区是非常特别的。所以我想问你，嗯，你一直公开表示，嗯，金钱不再是你做事的动力，这对你来说在生活中已经解决了。所以，在世界上所有你现在可以做的事情中，如果你愿意，你可以整天赛车或躺在海滩上，在所有事情中，你怎么最终把这么多精力和时间投入到一个 Linux 发行版中？为什么是这个？

So the I think that is one of the the coolest things about what what's happening because you have such a large brand and your your your energetic personality. Bringing that to Linux and the community around it is something very special. So I want to ask you like um you've been open that um money is not your um motivation anymore to do things that that is kind of settled for you in your life. So, of all things in the world that you could be doing right now where you could race cars all day if you wanted to or lie on the beach, of all things, how did you end up putting so much energy and and time into a Linux distro? Why this?

这是一个好问题，答案很简单。我只是热爱计算机，我从 5 岁起就热爱计算机。我在 84 年得到了我的第一台 Armstrot 464。在那之前，我和街上的其他孩子一起在 Commodore 64 前度过了很多时间。从那一刻起，Ya Kung Fu，那是我在计算机上玩的第一个游戏。我就被迷住了。

It's a good question and it has a simple answer. I just love computers and I've loved computers since I was 5 years old. I got my first Armstrot 464 back in 84. And before that, I spent a lot of time in front of a Commodore 64 with the other kids on my street. And from right at that first moment, Ya Kung Fu, that was the first game I played on a computer. I was just enthralled.

在我看来，很长一段时间里，这是世界上最有趣的事情。现在我也发现了其他有趣的事，无论是家庭、赛车还是别的什么。但我对计算机有着深深的热爱。我就是很喜欢用它们。有时它有目的，很多时候它都有目的。我能够以用计算机来构建东西为职业。但我也单纯喜欢为了用计算机而用计算机。我就是喜欢坐在计算机前，用它们做各种事情。

This was the most interesting thing in my opinion in the world for a very long time. Now I found other interesting things, whether it's family or racing or whatever else have you. But I have just this deep love of the computer. I just really like using them. Sometimes it has a purpose. A lot of times it has a purpose. I've been able to make a career using computers to build things. But I also just like using computers for their own sake. I just like sitting in front of computers and doing stuff with them.

所以当我发现 Linux，发现你能深入系统内部、能改变多少东西时，这真的触动了我，非常像 2003 年我发现 Ruby 并开始构建 Basecamp 时发生的事，后来 Ruby on Rails 成了支撑它的框架。它触动了我，让我突然从——在 Ruby 的情况下——只是在用程序，因为我想要程序。它是个工具，只是功能性的，我在追求一个结果——转变为爱上 Ruby 这门编程语言，爱上用它来表达你对软件的想法和愿景的方式。

So when I discovered Linux and the access you have to the bowels of the system, how much you can change, that really clicked something in me, very similar to what happened when I discovered Ruby back in 2003 and started building Basecamp, which then became Ruby on Rails as the framework that underpinned it. It clicked something in me where I suddenly went from—in the Ruby case—well, I'm just using programs because I want programs. It's a tool. It's merely functional. I'm seeking an outcome—to falling in love with Ruby as a programming language and as a way to express your ideas and your visions about software in this particular language.

而我在计算机上并没有真正拥有那种感觉。我当了 20 年 Mac 用户，非常喜欢。我认为 Mac 和 Apple 对什么造就了好电脑有很好的直觉，他们也有很好的品味。但后来我也发现，Apple 近年来变成的那种公司，偏离了我最初喜欢 Mac 的一些东西。现在它更少地赋能用户，更多地控制整个流程，在所有软件分发前设一个收费站，从整个经济中抽取 30%。我发现自己渐渐远离了它。

And then I didn't really have that with the computer. I was a Mac user for 20 years and liked that a lot. I think Mac and Apple has some really good instincts about what makes good computers and they have good taste. But then I've also found that the kind of company Apple has become in later years were diverging from some of the things I originally liked about the Mac. Now it's less about empowering the users, more about controlling the whole flow, having your toll booth sit in front of all software distribution, collecting 30% of the whole damn economy. And I just found myself drifting away from that.

这些年来我也和 Apple 有过一些冲突。我们在 2020 年推出了一款叫 hey.com 的邮件系统。Apple 试图扼杀它，除非我们交出 30% 的收入。你知道有趣的是，即便如此，我甚至无法想象使用别的东西。我用 Mac 用了那么久，那时 literally 快 20 年了。无论他们多么侮辱我或试图损害我们的业务，我仍然看不到还能用别的，因为当时我只认为替代品是 Windows。我以前用过 Windows。我甚至又试了一次，意识到它在所有方面都更糟。我不是一个 Windows 人。我在 90 年代用过几年 Windows，那时那是玩电子游戏的唯一方式。但我不想把它作为我的个人电脑。

I also then had some skirmishes with Apple over the years. We launched an email system called hey.com back in 2020. Apple tried to kill it if we didn't hand over 30% of our revenues. And I know—you know what's funny—even with that, I couldn't even imagine using something else. I'd been using the Mac for so long, literally at that point nearly 20 years. And however much they insulted me or tried to damage our business, I still couldn't even see that it could be something else because I only at the time really thought that the alternative was Windows. And I'd used Windows before. And I even gave it another try and I realized that's just worse in all the ways. I'm just not a Windows person. I used Windows for a few years back in the 90s when that was the only way to play video games. But I didn't want to run it as my personal computer.

我从未真正考虑过 Linux 是第三种选择，因为我在服务器上一直用 Linux，大概 25 年了。但每当我遇到 Linux 桌面社区，我觉得我看到了一群书呆子，我无法在其中看到自己，他们感兴趣的是别的东西，他们不在乎字体渲染、色彩搭配、安装简便性或精心策划的默认设置，或任何我通常——不只是通常，而是一直——在乎的东西。而我喜欢 Mac 的很大原因就是他们真的在乎这些东西。他们真的在乎设计。他们真的在乎字体。他们真的在乎默认设置。

And I never really considered that Linux was a third option because I'd been using Linux for, I don't know, 25 years on the server always. But whenever I would encounter the Linux desktop community, I thought I saw a bunch of nerds that I could not see myself in, that they were interested in other things and they didn't care about font rendering and color coordination or ease of install or curated defaults or any of the things that I typically—or not just typically, that I always—care about. And what I like so much about the Mac that they really cared about those things. They really cared about the design. They really cared about the fonts. They really cared about the defaults.

但最终事情到了紧要关头，Apple 在骆驼背上放了最后一根稻草，它断了，我转向了 Linux。先是 Ubuntu，试了试，发现很多我喜欢的地方。我其实并不喜欢开箱即用的 Ubuntu。所以很快我尝试个性化它，试图以某种方式构建它，让我可以在不同机器上复制。那就是后来的 Omakub。那是我在这方面的第一次尝试。我用了大约一年，然后一年多前我被 YouTube 骗了。这是来自 Typcraft 和 Primagen，他们有很多关于使用 Linux 的其他方式的视频，使用平铺窗口管理器之类的。我想我试试吧。我在 Arch 上试了 Hyprland。

But eventually push came to shove and Apple put the final straw on the camel's back and it broke and I went to Linux. First Ubuntu, gave that a try and found a lot that I liked. I didn't actually love Ubuntu out of the box. So very quickly I tried to personalize it and I tried to build it up such a way that it was something I could replicate across machines. That was what became Omakub. That was the first kind of dabble I did in this. I ran about that for about a year and then a little over a year ago I got snookered by YouTube. This was from Typcraft and the Primagen just had a lot of videos on other ways of using Linux, using tiling window managers and whatnot. And I thought I'll give it a go. And I tried Hyprland on top of Arch.

从某方面说，它与我想要电脑的一切相反。一切都是原子块，我得自己拼起来。就像一套乐高倒在地上，然后邀请你建造自己的千年隼。那通常不是我想要的电脑。但我意识到，如果我想要完美的电脑，我必须从最小的乐高积木开始。而 Ubuntu 给我的积木不够小。它们是得宝，不是乐高。你可以用得宝搭东西，玩得开心，但大多数孩子到五岁就不玩得宝了，最晚也许五岁，然后他们喜欢乐高，因为可以用乐高搭更多东西。

And in one way, it was the opposite of everything I want out of a computer. Everything was an atomic bit I had to put together myself. It was just a Lego set dumped on the floor and then an invitation to build your own Millennium Falcon. That's not typically what I want out of a computer. But what I realized was if I want the perfect computer, I have to start from the smallest Lego blocks. And the blocks that Ubuntu gave me were not small enough. They were Duplo, not Legos. You could build something out of Duplo and you can have fun with it, but most kids grow out of Duplo by age five, maybe at the latest, and then they like Legos because they could build more things with Legos.

我意识到，从 Ubuntu 得宝到 Arch 和 Hyprland 乐高的转变，是我需要的解锁，让我像爱上 Ruby 编程语言一样爱上 Linux 机器。一旦那发生，我意识到我现在可以直接构建对我而言完美的电脑。

And I realized that that transition from the Ubuntu Duplo to the Arch and Hyprland Legos was the unlock that I needed to fall in love with the Linux machine like I had with the Ruby programming language. And once that happened, I realized I now have a straight shot to building the perfect computer for me.

然后我在那个形态上花了一年时间做 Omarchy，把它做到版本三。首先我们从只是点文件开始。然后我们有了 ISO。然后我们有了自己的镜像。然后我们有了自己的软件包仓库。我们不断积累大型发行版会用的所有领域。

Then I spent a year on Omarchy in that shape, getting it up to version three. First we went from just the dot files. Then we had an ISO. Then we had our own mirror. Then we had our own package repository. And we just kept accumulating all the terrain that a large distribution would use.

然后发生了一些事。发生的是，AI 在今年春天左右变得难以置信地好。去年 12 月、去年 11 月它就已经很好了。那是 Opus 4.5 在 11 月 24 日发布的时候。对我来说那是一个真正的拐点。过去三四个月发生的事纯粹是魔法。我已经大约四个月没写一行严肃的生产代码了。一切都是智能体创造的，因为它们现在写的代码，大多数时候可以说比我这个把整个职业生涯 25 年都奉献给这件事的专业人士写得更好。

And then something happened. And what happened was that AI got unbelievably good in about the spring of this year. It was already really good in the December of last year, November last year. That was when Opus 4.5 came out on November 24. That to me was a real inflection point. And what's been happening the last three, four months is pure magic. I have not written a line of serious production code for about four months. Everything is being created by the agents because they now write code that is arguably better the majority of the time than what I could write myself as a professional who's dedicated my entire career to this for 25 years.

哇。

Wow.

智能体就是更好。尤其是当你以对抗模式使用它们，你有 Codex 和 Fable 或其他你用的模型，让它们互相批评。它们能产生的实现真的非常神奇，尤其是在 Linux 上，因为所有这些模型的预训练都包含了 4000 万行 Linux 代码。所以它们什么都知道。它们知道每个问题，知道去哪里找，去哪里诊断。而且大概从 11 月以来，我遇到的 Linux 问题没有一个智能体修不了的。这也是 Linux 历史上我其实不太欣赏的另一点，就是每当它出问题——这还挺频繁的——它会吐出一条关于某个子包里配置文件的错误信息，而我完全不知道那是什么。

The agents are just better. Especially when you use them in adversarial mode and you have Codex and Fable or whatever other models that you use and you use them to critique each other. The kind of implementations that they can produce are just truly magical, and especially in Linux because all these models have pre-training that includes the 40 million lines of Linux code. So they know everything. They know every problem, where to look, where to diagnose it. And I have not had a single issue with Linux in probably since November that an agent couldn't fix. And that was also one of the other things with Linux historically that I didn't actually appreciate so much, which was that whenever it would break, which would be somewhat frequently, it would spit out an error message about a config file in a sub package I had no clue about.

然后我不得不上网翻论坛，找一个被动攻击型的极客，他明明知道答案却不太愿意分享，还要先贬低你、羞辱你，说你是个连源码都没读、没自己编译的蠢货，或者他们觉得参与的门槛是什么。而智能体把这一切都治好了。智能体非常有礼貌，当你问它们 Linux 上的问题时，它们会帮你修好，并告诉你为什么这么做，不带任何偏见。

And then I had to go troll the internet and find some forum where a passive-aggressive nerd would have the answer but not really want to share it before they demeaned you and shamed you for being an idiot that didn't read the source or compile it themselves or whatever else they thought the bar was for participation. And agents cured all that. Agents are very polite and when you ask them about a problem in Linux they will fix it for you and tell you why they did it without any prejudice.

所以我就想，嘿，你知道吗？时机正好。把这一切结合起来，现在我就迷上了。现在我看到，我不仅理论上能用 Linux 打造完美的电脑，我还能在实践中做到。我相信这就是 Omachi 激励了这么多人的原因：他们看到我发布的东西是一堆非常好的默认配置。他们不必自己搞清楚一切。一切都设置好了。一切都很美。但一旦他们学会了，他们就能以那个基础为起点，把它变成他们自己的完美电脑、他们自己的变体、他们自己的美学。而在这个空间里，有大量的兴奋，以及商业世界所说的蓝海。

So, I just thought, hey, do you know what? That's a good time. And you combine all of that together. And now I'm obsessed. Now I see that not only can I build in theory the perfect computer with Linux, I can build it in practice. And that's what Omachi has inspired, I believe, in so many people that they can see what I ship as a bunch of really good defaults. They don't have to figure everything out. Everything is set up. Everything is beautiful. But as soon as they then learn it, they can take that base and turn it into their perfect computer, their mutation, their aesthetics. And in that space is just a lot of excitement and a lot of what the business world would call blue ocean.

竞争并不多，因为如果你看看历史上的替代品，Windows 和 Mac，它们对智能体式操作系统的理念极其敌视，因为它们非常封闭。Windows 在所有方面都是一团糟。你必须用 computer use，所以你的智能体实际上是在移动光标点击东西。这完全过时了。而苹果则有一些关于安全的立场，我们可以聊聊，还有其他一些东西，使得改变系统变得非常困难。

There's not a lot of competition because if you look at the historic alternatives, Windows and Mac, they're incredibly hostile to the Agentic OS idea because they're very locked down. Windows is a mess in all regards. You have to use computer use. So your agent is literally moving a cursor around to click things. It's totally archaic. And then Apple on the other hand have some stances around actually security which we could talk about and other things that just make it very difficult to mutate the system.

Linux 是 AI 的完美搭档。一切都是 CLI。一切都是配置文件。一切都可以脚本化。一切都可以编码。一切都可以捕获。因此一切也都可以调试和进化。所以我们有了这场完美风暴，然后你会以为 Linux 世界会拥抱它，但不，Linux 世界的大部分人充其量是中立的。他们会说，你想怎么做都行。而 Linux 世界中还有很大一部分是积极敌视的。你看看 Gnome 项目，看看 Asahi 项目，看看一堆项目，它们的公司章程里写着不要 AI，全部手写。

Linux is the perfect fit for AI. Everything is a CLI. Everything is a config file. Everything can be scripted. Everything can be encoded. Everything can be captured. And therefore everything can also be debugged and evolved. So we have this perfect storm and then you'd think the Linux world would embrace that but no much of the Linux world at the very best they're neutral. They're like well you can do whatever you want and then there's a huge portion of the Linux world that's actively hostile. You look at the Gnome project, you look at the Asahi project, you look at a bunch of projects that are in there articles of incorporation saying no AI write it all by hand.

我就想，好吧，如果旧系统无法实现智能体式操作系统，而其他 Linux 系统大部分又不愿意，那么我们实际上有道德义务为那些确实想运行 Linux、确实想要智能体式操作系统的人交付 Omachi。

And I just go, okay, well, if the old systems aren't capable of getting to the agentic OS and the other Linux systems by a large part don't want to, we actually have a moral obligation to deliver Omachi for the people who do want to run Linux and who do want an agentic operating system.

我想到的一句话是：这升级得真快。重新表述一下，你接触了 Linux，你发现了它，你在 YouTube 上看到，哦，这是个平铺窗口管理器。然后你深入进去，然后呢？一年后，你现在就在这里打造完美的电脑。这对我来说太不可思议了。

The phrase that comes to mind is that escalated quickly. Just to rephrase it, you went into Linux, you discovered it, you were on YouTube. Oh, this is a tiling window manager. And then you went into it, and then what is it? One year later, you're now here building the perfect computer. Like that's just so amazing to me.

这是初学者思维的礼物。在 Ruby 身上发生的一模一样。当我接触 Ruby 时，已经有其他人在做 Web 框架之类的东西，但我是以新手、初学者的身份进入的。我不知道所有那些你不该做的事，别人认为你做不到的事，或者你在一个社区待久了就理所当然的事。当我来到 Linux 时，我看到了一百万个坏掉、可以更好的地方。然后我看到了一百万个拥有惊人潜力的地方，我想我必须现在就抓住这一切。如果我在 Linux 待上三年，现在不努力改变，我就会忘记所有困难的地方，从而阻止其他人采用 Linux。

This is the gift of the beginner's mind. This was exactly the same thing that happened in Ruby. When I came to Ruby, there were some other efforts of making web frameworks and whatnot, but I came to it as a novice, as a beginner. I didn't know all the things you were not supposed to do that others didn't think you could do or that once you've been in a community for a while, you just take for granted. When I arrived at Linux, I saw a million things that were broken and could be better. And then I saw a million things with an amazing potential and I thought I have to capture all of that right now. If I stay in Linux for three years and I don't make the effort to change things now, I will have forgotten everything that's difficult and prevent other people from adopting Linux.

所以当你进入一个新的技术宇宙时，会有这样一个神奇的时刻：你能看到所有那些长期待在那里的人看不到的缺陷，因为他们已经适应了。然后他们知道更多东西。我什么都不知道。我不得不学很多东西。但你知道吗？如果你每天花 8 到 16 个小时在某件事上，如果你聪明又有动力，最终你会掌握的。我愿意相信这两点。所以我投入了强度和专注。让我把该学的都学了。我的意思是那不可能，但足够危险了。就这么说吧。然后把它和 Mac 是什么样的新鲜记忆结合起来。为什么 Linux 不能在易用性、出色的设计、字体渲染等所有方面击败 Mac？当然可以。我们只需要决定去做。

So there's this magic moment when you arrive in a new technical universe where you can see all the flaws that none of the people who've been there for a long time are able to see because they've acclimated to that. Then they know more things. I didn't know anything at all. And I had to learn a lot of things. But you know what? If you spend 8 to 16 hours a day on something, eventually you'll pick it up if you're smart and driven. And I'd like to believe on both those things. So I applied the intensity and the focus. Let me just learn everything there is to learn. And I mean that's not possible, but enough to be dangerous. Let's call it that. And then let's combine that with the fresh memory of what a Mac is like. Why can't Linux beat Macs on ease of use, great design, font rendering, all the things? Of course, it can. We just have to decide to do it.

所以，你正在做的事，吸引你的是打造完美的电脑，对吧？那基本上是你为自己做的，你在其他采访中说过，你总是会有一套精心挑选的视觉、程序和软件，因为你最初是为自己构建的。那么你本可以只为自己做，甚至不谈论它，对吧？但这背后有如此多的动力、能量和每天 16 小时的工作。那么，从打造完美电脑到你现在的所作所为，底层的那一层是什么？中间是什么？

So the what you're doing, what sucked you in was building the perfect computer, right? That's what you are basically doing for yourself and you said in other interviews that you will always have this curated set of visuals and programs and software that I like because I'm initially build it for myself. So how you could do that and just do that for yourself and don't even talk about it, right? But there is so much drive and energy and 16-hour work days behind this. So what is the layer underneath that goes from building the perfect computer to what you are doing now? What is between that?

我觉得我有义务为世界生产力、为世界对美的欣赏、为围绕电脑的一套重新焕发活力的美德——它们能做什么、能让我们感受到什么——做出贡献。如果我发现了某种比我们今天拥有的选择更能实现这一点的东西，我必须分享。这和我发现 Ruby 时一模一样。我发现 Ruby 时，它在西方是一个非常非常小的利基社区。它在日本有大量追随者，已经存在很长时间，但在西方它很小。我发现 Ruby 简直就是我想在 Web 上构建的那种应用的完美编程语言。一旦我知道了，我就想，你知道吗，把这个秘密留给自己会极其自私。我应该让其他人体验我在 Ruby 中体验到的同样的快乐。现在 20 年后，这又重演了。

I feel I have an obligation to world productivity, to world appreciation of beauty, to a re-energized set of virtues around computers of what they're capable of and what they can make us feel that if I have discovered something that enables that better than the options we have today, I must share. This was exactly the same thing I had when I discovered Ruby. I discovered Ruby at a time where it was a very very small and niche community in the west. It had a large following in Japan and it had been around there for a long time, but in the west it was tiny. And I discovered that Ruby was simply the perfect programming language for the kind of applications I wanted to build on the web. And once I knew that, I thought, you know what, it would be incredibly selfish to keep that secret to myself. I should allow others to experience the same joy I'm experiencing with Ruby. And now it's a replay of that 20 years later.

嗯，是 Linux on Rails。Omachi 是我对发现更好使用电脑方式的布道，然后想，我希望有人早点告诉我。为什么我花了这么长时间才发现 Linux 作为桌面使用方式？现在，有很多原因，其中一些原因不仅仅是缺乏发现，还关乎时机。我认为这是 Linux 的完美时刻，原因有很多。平铺窗口管理器的概念已经存在很长时间了。我们有 i3 之类的，早在 2000 年代初，我想一些早期项目就开始了。

Um is Linux on Rails. Omachi is my evangelization of discovering better ways to use a computer and then thinking I wish someone would have told me earlier. Why did it take me so long to find Linux as a way to use it on the desktop? Now, there are a bunch of reasons and some of those reasons are not just about lack of discovery, but it's also about timing. I think this is the perfect moment for Linux for a variety of reasons. A the tiling window managers concept has been around for a long time. We've have i3 and whatever back early 2000s I think some of these early projects got started.

但直到 Hyprland 出现，我才找到了一种平铺窗口管理器概念的版本，它被捕捉得如此优雅、有风格，还有漂亮的边框线性动画，让我觉得自己会用。所以这是我们必须拥有的东西之一：Hyprland。第二件事是，你能运行 Linux 的电脑，直到今年，也许去年，都还不太好，因为苹果推出 MacBook 之后，M 芯片对于几乎所有人最喜欢的电脑形态——笔记本电脑——来说是一场革命。所以我们经历了一段沙漠中的跋涉，Linux 真的没有很好的硬件选择。现在，在台式机上，这其实无所谓。事实上，那些选择长期以来一直很好。但如果你想实现广泛的渗透——即使对我自己来说，我也不想只在台式机上运行 Linux，然后在笔记本上运行另一个操作系统。我想在所有地方都运行 Linux。我想在所有地方运行同一个系统。在我们拥有真正好的电脑之前，这有点难。而现在，尤其是过去 12 个月刚推出的 Intel Panther Lake，我们得到了有竞争力的东西。然后，最后一块拼图，直到我在 Omarchy 上工作了一年之后才完全拼上，就是这场智能体革命。所以你把所有这些放在一起，你需要一些基础，你需要 Hyprland。事实上，现在 Omarchy 的本质也基于 Quickshell。Quickshell 在这一点上和 Hyprland 一样重要，因为正是它赋能了这个统一的 shell，你可以做所有插件，你可以做所有智能体扩展等等。所以我们需要软件，然后我们需要硬件，然后我们需要智能体，而所有这些东西直到现在才真正汇聚在一起，来开发或交付这个卓越的组合包。你本可以拥有其中的个别部分。我的意思是，显然有人已经在台式机上运行 Linux 很久了，但发生的事情是它停滞了很长时间。它只会徘徊在低个位数的市场份额，因为它是个小众的东西。它需要巨大的前期投资，才能产出接近 Linux 所能达到的巅峰的东西。你当然可以随时安装 Ubuntu，但正如我们讨论过的，那里有些得宝积木，我其实不觉得它们比 Mac 优越。如果只是原版 Ubuntu、原版 macOS，啊，我不知道，没那么容易。我可能会选原版 macOS。因此，所有这些东西都必须积累并汇聚在一起，我们才能实现那个预言。这就是我真正喜欢 Linux 社区的一点，我们有这些宏大的叙事。Linux 预言，桌面 Linux 之年，我相信是在 1999 年的某个会议上被预言的。这造就了一个伟大的预言。如果你做出预言，然后第二年就成真了，那是个糟糕的预言。但如果这个预言已经存在了 20 年，超过 20 年，那它就值得实现。我认为我们正处在这个神奇的时刻，所有碎片都在汇聚。我们有传说，我们有预言，现在我们能够兑现它。

But it wasn't until Hyprland that I found a version of the tiling window manager concept that was captured with such poise and style and beautiful bezel-linear animations that I could see myself using it. So that was one thing we had to have: Hyprland. The second thing is the computers you could run Linux on up until literally this year, maybe last year, were just not very good after Apple had come out with the MacBook, because the M chips were a revolution for the favorite computer format of almost anyone, which is the laptop. So we went through this walk in the desert where Linux really did not have great hardware choices. Now, on the desktop, it doesn't really matter. And in fact, those choices have been great for a long time. But if you want to do broad penetration—even for myself, I want to not just run Linux on my desktop and then another operating system on my laptop. I want to run Linux everywhere. I want to run the same system everywhere. A little difficult to do that before we had really good computers. And now with Intel Panther Lake in particular that just came out in the last 12 months, we've gotten something that's competitive. And then the final piece of the puzzle that didn't even come fully together until after I'd been working on Omarchy for a year was this agent revolution. So you take all of these things together, you needed some of the fundamentals, you needed Hyprland. And in fact now the essence of Omarchy is also based on Quickshell. Quickshell is just as important at this point as Hyprland is, because that's what's empowering this one unified shell where you can do all the plugins and you can do all the agent extensions and so forth. So we needed the software, then we needed the hardware, and then we needed the agents, and all of that stuff has literally only just come together now to develop or deliver the superior combined package. You could have had individual parts of it. I mean, obviously there's been people running Linux on the desktop for a very long time, but what has happened with that is it kind of stalled for a long time. It would just hover at low single-digit percent market share because it was a niche thing. It required an enormous investment upfront to produce something that was towards the peak of what Linux could achieve. You could of course always install Ubuntu, but as we discussed, some Duplo blocks there that I actually didn't think were superior to the Mac. If it was just stock Ubuntu, stock macOS, ah, I don't know, it's not that easy. I would probably go stock macOS. And therefore, all of this stuff had to accumulate and come together before we could fulfill the prophecy. And that's one of the things I really love about the Linux community, that we have these grand tellings. The Linux prophecy, the year of Linux on the desktop, was foretold in, I believe, 1999 at some conference. And that makes for a great prophecy. It's a shitty prophecy if you make it and then next year it comes true. But if it's a prophecy that's literally been around for 20 years, more than 20 years, then it's worth fulfilling. And I think that's the magic moment we're in, that all the pieces are coming together. We have the lore, we have the prophecy, and now we're able to deliver on it.

太棒了。那么你会说，这既是打造完美的电脑，但同时也关乎让尽可能多的人使用它吗？

Amazing. So would you say then that it's building the perfect computer, but then it's also about getting as many people to use it as possible?

不是尽可能多。我会说有一条神奇的分界线，我喜欢称之为逃逸速度。你的飞船上需要有足够多的人，才能维持它穿越银河系。两个人不行。10 个人不行。可能一千人也不行，但一万人可以。十万人当然可以。这就是我想达到的。我想让 Omarchy 成为对我来说完美的电脑。这是第一号任务。第二号任务是让足够多的人认同这个愿景，让他们喜欢我这台完美的电脑，然后他们会把它变成他们自己个人的完美电脑，我们一起就能维持它。但这永远不会是所有人。世界上有大量的人真的不喜欢电脑。现在我认为他们不喜欢电脑的原因是，他们一直在用糟糕的电脑。如果我们向他们展示 Omarchy，也许有些人会过来。但我们不会得到所有人。我也不想得到所有人，因为这也是一种需要培养的品味。就像咖啡。就像香槟。就像 80% 的黑巧克力。你把它给一个从没尝过这些东西的人，第一口，是酸的。是“不，不，谢谢”。对吧。我希望 Omarchy 保持为一种需要培养的品味。这其实和名字也有个有趣的相似之处。我不介意它难发音。我不介意你必须做一些前期投入，从发音到学习几个键位绑定，甚至到能够找到路，到接受平铺窗口管理器，到把 Linux 作为一个整体包来采用，这永远不会达到 100%。但我们能达到 20% 吗？30%？我相信我们可以。我其实认为，如果你看电脑的漫长历史，当前的范式，基于桌面的范式，也是一种需要培养的品味。到 Windows 95 出现时，人们已经习惯了 DOS 下的 WordPerfect，而它有点奇怪。现在我得把这些图标拖来拖去。现在人们忘记了这一点，因为我们已经在这个范式里生活了 30 年。但我看到了那个范式之前的样子，我看到了人们采用它有多难。我也看到了孩子们第一次接触电脑时会发生什么。他们没有这些先入为主的观念。认为平铺窗口管理器很难，完全是成年人的想法。不。不。它难是因为你必须忘掉很多你为了使用传统操作系统而学到的东西。如果你把它给一个没有以那种方式被预先设定的小孩，他们没有任何那些偏见。因此我想触及所有的孩子。我想给他们一台更好、更漂亮、更可扩展的电脑。一台没有被锁定的，一台他们可以改造的。就像我在 Commodore 64、Amstrad、Amiga 上的那种体验。它们都内置了开发者工具，并邀请你使用它们。比如 Commodore 64，当你想玩游戏时，你实际上必须做，我想是 LOAD "*",8,1，之类的，我忘了。我应该查一下。你是在给电脑编程，才能加载你想玩的游戏。现在，那有摩擦，然后最终我们摆脱了所有摩擦，然后我们得到了 iPad。我其实并不讨厌 iPad。我认为 iPad 有很棒的地方，但 iPad 肯定没有教孩子们电脑技能。它教他们成为 Netflix 和游戏的消费者。

Not as many as possible. I would say there's a magic line that I like to call escape velocity. You need enough people on your spaceship to sustain it through the galaxy. You can't do it with two people. You can't do it with 10. You probably can't even do it with a thousand, but you can do it with 10,000. You certainly can do it with 100,000. That's what I want to get to. I want to get Omarchy to be the perfect computer for me. That's mission number one. Mission number two is to get enough people on board with that vision that they like my perfect computer and then they will turn it into their own personal perfect computer and together we can sustain it. But that's never going to be everyone. There's just an enormous amount of people in the world who really don't like computers. Now I think the reason they don't like computers is they've been using shitty ones. And if we show them Omarchy, maybe some of them will come over. But we're not going to get all of them. And I don't want to get all of them because it's also a bit of an acquired taste. It's like coffee. It's like champagne. It's like 80% dark chocolate. You give that to someone who has not tasted any of those things and the first taste, it's sour. It's no, no, thank you. Right. I would like Omarchy to stay an acquired taste. This is actually a funny parallel to even the name. I don't mind that it's difficult to pronounce. I don't mind that there's some upfront investment you have to make in everything from the pronunciation to learning a handful of key bindings to even be able to find your way around to coming to terms with a tiling window manager to adopting Linux like as a whole package that's never going to reach 100%. But could we reach 20%? 30%? I believe we could. I actually think that if you look at the long history of computers, the current paradigm, desktop-based paradigm was also an acquired taste. By the time Windows 95 arrived, people were used to WordPerfect in DOS and it was a little strange. Now I would have to drag these icons around. Now people forget that today because we've been living that paradigm for 30 years. But I saw what was before that paradigm and I saw how difficult it was for people to adopt it. And I see what happens to children when they're first exposed to a computer. They don't have these preconceived notions. It's an entirely adult thing to believe that a tiling window manager is difficult. No. No. It's difficult because you have to unlearn a lot of things that you've picked up to use a traditional operating system. If you give it to a child who's not been preconditioned in that way, they don't have any of those biases. And therefore I want to reach all the kids. I want to give them a better, more beautiful, more extendable computer. One that's not locked down, ones that they can mutate. The kind of experience I had with the Commodore 64, with the Amstrad, with the Amiga. All of them ship with developer tooling built in and an invitation to use them. Like the Commodore 64, for example, when you wanted to play a game, you literally had to do, I think it was LOAD "*",8,1, something, I forget. I should look that up. You were programming the computer to be able to load the game you wanted to use. Now, that had friction and then eventually we got rid of all that friction and then we ended up with an iPad. And I don't actually hate on the iPad. I think there's wonderful things about the iPad, but the iPad certainly did not teach kids computer skills. They taught them to be consumers of Netflix and games.

这有很多好处。我完全不反对电子游戏，也不反对节目，但我支持电脑。我非常支持技术并理解它。我认为只拿到 iPad 的孩子对电脑能是什么样会有很糟糕的理解。

And there's plenty of things that can be good about that. I'm not at all against video games. I'm not at all against shows, but I am pro-computer. I'm very much pro technology and understanding it. And I think kids who just get an iPad get a very poor understanding of what a computer can be.

然后我也希望那些愿意同行的成年人加入。再说一次，不必赢得所有人。只要让足够多的人登上飞船，达到逃逸速度，我们就能穿越银河，想去多远就去多远。也许那是 20%，也许是 30%。但如果仅此而已——顺便说一句，这完全是妄想——上一次新的桌面操作系统占据 20% 到 30% 的市场是什么时候？

And then I also want the adults along who want to be along. Again, don't have to win everyone over. Have to get enough people on the spaceship that we get escape velocity and we can travel through the galaxy for as far as we want to go. Maybe that's 20%. Maybe that's 30%. But if that's all it is, which is by the way totally delusional, like when was the last time a new desktop operating system captured 20 to 30% of the market?

实际上，我认为是 Windows 95，因为如果你看 Mac OS 的全球统计数据，我想它们徘徊在 15% 左右。如果你看美国的 Mac，也许接近 20% 到 30%。我想可能是 25%。所以那是最后一次，对吧？上一次是四分之一世纪前。

Actually, I think it was Windows 95 because if you look at global stats for Mac OS, I think they hover around 15%. If you look for Mac in the US, maybe it's closer towards the 20 30%. I I think it's 25% maybe. So that was the last one, right? The last one was a quarter of a century ago.

我相信我们具备再次做到这一点的要素，大幅改变市场份额饼图，让 Linux 从现在的水平提升。我的意思是，这里有相互矛盾的报道。有人说 5%，有人说 8%。现在有人说 12%。当你有所有这些智能体、Steam Deck 和其他一堆东西时，很难知道。但无论它在哪里，它都是第三，稳稳地第三，仅次于 Mac 和 Windows。

I believe we have the ingredients to do it again to massively move the market share pie chart to make Linux go from wherever it is now. I mean, there's conflicting reports here. Some say 5%, some say 8%. Now something says 12%. It's hard to know when you have all these agents and we have Steam Decks and a bunch of other things. But wherever it is, it's third, solidly third, right behind Mac and behind Windows.

如果我们能击败 Mac，对吧，用一个同样好、漂亮，但也开放、也免费的操作系统。现在就是机会。现在就是窗口。这个窗口已经关闭了 30 年。现在它打开了。

If we could just like beat the Mac, right, with a just as well, beautiful, but also open, also free operating system. Now is the chance. Now is the window. The window has been closed for 30 years. It's open right now.

绝对喜欢。是的。因为我和你非常相似。我喜欢和电脑打交道。我的职业生涯就是靠这个。正如你所说，孩子们，甚至我后面的一代，现在成长起来，他们用 iPad。他们甚至不再有文件系统的概念。他们不理解。他们只以应用来思考。

Absolutely love it. Yeah. Because I'm I'm I'm very similar to you. Like I I I love working with computers. I made my career out of it. And as you say, like kids or or even the generation behind me growing up now, they're using iPads. They don't even have the concept of a file system anymore. They they don't understand. They just think in apps.

所以我认为任何帮助人们重新点燃，或者甚至，怎么说呢，介绍真正使用电脑是什么样的事情，我认为那只是积极的事情。所以我真的很钦佩你拥有的这个使命。你把它作为驱动力，因为是的，我曾经发过一条推文，我说人们被社会分配了他们的操作系统，我因此受到了一些反驳，但我真的相信，在学校或某个地方，你被介绍给 Windows 或 Mac，然后你就认为那就是电脑体验应该有的样子。

So I think anything that helps people rekindle or or even be u be what do you call it introduced to what actually a using an actual computer is like I think that's only a positive thing. So I really admire that mission that you have. This is that you are and that you are that you have this as a driving force because yeah I I did a tweet once where I said that people get assigned their operating systems by society and I got a little bit of push back on that but I truly believe that that in school or somewhere you are introduced to Windows and you or or Mac and then you think that is what a computer experience is supposed to be like.

所以是的，那么当你想到，嗯，好吧，我们有这个使命，我们要尽可能容易地让尽可能多的人接触到你的品牌。接下来的步骤是什么？我们如何让更多人采用 Omari 或 Linux？嗯，对普通大众来说，比如说，

So yeah, so when when you when you think of um okay, so we have this mission, we're going to make it as easy as possible to um expose this to as many people as possible with your brand. What are the next steps for this? How are we going to get more people to adopt Omari or or Linux in in general? Um for the general population, let's say,

有多个步骤。最重要的一个是我们继续传递热情。我们让更多人为之兴奋，因为他们看到了兴奋。这是我在 Linux 社区和整个技术社区发现的另一个大问题。他们对营销有一种本能的厌恶。他们认为任何被营销过、圆滑、引人注目或色彩协调的东西，在某种程度上都是空洞、空虚或不值得关注的。

there's multiple steps. One of the most important is that we continue the transfer of enthusiasm. We get more people excited for it because they see the excitement. This is one of the other big bug bears I find in both the Linux community and the technical community in general. They have an instinctual aversion to marketing. They think anything that has been marketed or is slick or is compelling or is colorcoordinated is somehow vapid or empty or undeserving of attention.

我认为这是一个不幸的结论。这并非完全不合理。世界上有很多东西受欢迎，不是因为它们好，而是因为它们被推广。但不要陷入这样的兔子洞：相信任何有良好营销并以漂亮方式呈现的东西因此就事实上没有任何技术价值或值得关注。

I think that's an unfortunate conclusion to draw. It's not completely unreasonable. There are many things in this world that are popular, not because they're good, but because they were pushed. But don't fall into the rabbit hole of believing that anything that has good marketing and is presented in a nice manner is also therefore de facto, void of any technical merit or attention.

我认为这是 Linux 长期陷入的陷阱，而我给它带来一种新的能量。我带来一种在商业市场中磨练出来的能量。我做了几十年商业软件。我知道如何让人们为事情兴奋。事实上，这甚至不是策略。我在传递我的热情，因为我真心拥有它。我对电脑感到兴奋。我对它们喋喋不休。我无法停止改进它们。

I think this is the trap Linux has been trapped in for a long time and I'm bringing a new kind of energy to it. I'm bringing an energy that was honed in the commercial market. I've been making commercial software for decades. I know what it takes to get people excited about things. And in fact, it's not even a ploy. I'm transferring my enthusiasm because I genuinely hold it. I'm excited about computers. I can't shut up about them. I can't stop improving them.

一旦我拥有像 Amachi 此刻这样独特的东西，分享就感觉像一种道德义务。这也是我相信它引起共鸣的原因，因为有很多公司有很多钱，他们发愚蠢的推文，没人在意，零互动，因为谁想被营销呢？没人想要那样。但他们确实想被热情、良好氛围和对新事物的兴奋所感染。我完全致力于这个使命。

And once I have something that feels as unique in this moment as Amachi is, it feels like a moral obligation to share. Which is also why I believe it's resonating because there's plenty of companies who have lots of money and they tweet stupid things that no one care about and get zero engagement because who wants to just be marketed at? No one wants that. But they do want to be infected with enthusiasm and good vibes and excitement for something new. And I've committed to that mission fully.

这就是为什么在每天 16 小时的饼图中，很大一部分用于互动，用于在 X 上与人们交谈，回复有 17 个粉丝或 1700 万粉丝的人，只是做传福音的零售政治。就像走出去，在人们所在的地方与他们见面，听取他们的担忧，写下来，然后修复一切。

This is why as a pie chart of those 16 hours a day, a large amount of it goes towards the engagement, goes towards talking to people on X, replying to folks with 17 followers or 17 million followers, and just doing the retail politics of um evangelism. Like go out, meet people where they are, hear their concerns, write them down, then fix everything.

这一直是我推广的标语之一。我们可以修复一切。我甚至注册了域名。Wecanfixeverything.com 只是一个纪念碑，纪念这个想法：在 Linux、开源和智能体之间的新世界里，没有小毛病。没有依赖。没有不兼容，是我们用足够的 token、强度和动力无法治愈的。所以，我会做这项工作。

This has been one of the taglines that I've been promoting. We can fix everything. I literally even registered the domain. We canfix everything.com is a just monument to the idea that in this new world between Linux, open-source and agents there is no paper cut. There's no dependency. There's no incompatibility that we cannot cure with enough tokens, intensity, and momentum. So, I'm going to do that work.

我也只是喜欢它。我真的很喜欢看到有人发现使用电脑的更好方式并获得那种顿悟体验，因为我在 Ruby 上看到了。那些一直使用 Java 或 .NET 的程序员，认为那就是极限。那就是编程。然后他们看到 Ruby，许多人第一次看到对比时简直不敢相信自己的眼睛。他们以为 Ruby 是伪代码，不是可执行代码，而是你在杂志上解释概念时写的那种漂亮代码，当他们意识到不，不，这是实际代码，这就是你要写的，很多人真的像我一样爱上了 Ruby。

I also just love it. I really love seeing someone discover a better way to use a computer and get that aha experience because I saw it with Ruby. Programmers who had been using Java ornet and thinking like that that was the extent of it. That was what programming was. And then they would see Ruby and many of them literally could not believe their eyes the first time they saw the contrast. They thought that Ruby was pseudo code like not executable code but the kind of pretty code you'd write in a magazine when you're explaining concepts and when they realized no no this is the actual code this is what you will write. A lot of them really fell in love with the Ruby the same way I did.

我认为在 Linux 方面也是如此，有很多人可能对 Linux 能提供什么感到好奇，但真的没有时间和精力花几十、几百小时来打造你在 r/UnixPorn 上看到的那种美丽的定制系统，那些东西是工匠创作，需要工匠时间，尽管它们很美，但非常小众。所以，我想把计算世界中最好的技术和最好的艺术推广给更多人。所以，我们会这样做。然后，我们还会继续筹集资金。我喜欢钱。

And I think the same thing is true on the Linux side that there were a lot of people who perhaps were curious about what Linux had to offer but really just didn't have the time and attention to spend the tens of hours, hundreds of hours to come up with the kind of beautiful bespoke systems that you would see on like r/ Unix porn that those things were artisan creation that required artisan hours and as beautiful as they were they were very niche. So, I want to broaden this appeal to the best technology and the best art that we have in the computing world to just more people. So, we're going to do that. Then, we're also going to continue to raise money. I like money.

我个人已经不需要这笔钱了，但我知道它能成为项目的加速剂——你可以投资于人、项目、营销，以及所有能推动唱片或火箭更快前进的要素。这在接触合作伙伴时也非常重要。我们已经有大量商业伙伴加入了 Omarchy。加入的伙伴越多，我们筹到的钱越多，与 Intel、AMD、Nvidia 或其他 Linux 社区真正需要的公司进行下一次对话就越容易，从而为最新电脑打造最好的系统。所以我认为这本身就是一种美德。

I don't need it personally anymore, but I know what an accelerant it can be for projects — you can invest in people, in projects, in marketing, in all the elements it takes to propel the record or the rocket forward faster. This is also very important when you approach partners. We already have a lot of commercial partners on board with Omarchy. And the more of them we get on board, the more money we raise, the easier it becomes to have the next conversation with Intel or AMD or Nvidia or whatever other company the Linux community actually needs to create the best systems for the newest computers. So I think that's a virtue in and of itself.

到了这个阶段，说实话，我也就是为了好玩。我甚至完全不知道我们打算怎么花掉目前筹到的 2000 万美元，但我想，嘿，如果能筹到 2000 万，为什么不是 5000 万？为什么不是一亿？我认为大数字本身产生的势头就有价值。它表明我们是认真的。我们会长期做下去。你可以信任 Omarchy，它不再只是某人的 dot files。一年前它还只是 DHH 的 dot files。如果有人想：“是啊，我不想把我的家用电脑建立在那上面。”我也不会觉得他有什么不对。他可能五分钟后就失去兴趣了，因为 dot files 集合通常就是这样。它们会过时，不会保持更新，等等。

And at this point, I mean, I'm also just doing it for sport. I haven't even the faintest clue how we're going to spend the $20 million that I've raised so far, but I think hey, if we could raise 20, why not 50? Why not a hundred? And I think there's just value in the sheer momentum large numbers produce. It says we're serious. We're going to stick around. You can trust in Omarchy to not just be someone's dot files. It was just DHH's dot files a year ago. And I wouldn't think badly of someone who goes, "Yeah, I don't want to build my home computer around that." He might lose interest in it in five minutes because that's usually what happens with a collection of dot files. They go out of date. They don't stay up to date and so forth.

现在我们有了 2000 万美元。我们有了基金会。我们有了员工。我们要奔月了。更多人有兴趣跳上这枚火箭。因此，我们可以传播并为更多人创造 Linux。所以这是一个非常良性的循环。

Now we have $20 million. We have a foundation. We have employees. We're going for the moon here. And more people are interested in jumping on top of that rocket. And therefore, we can spread and create Linux for more people. So it's a very virtuous cycle.

然后还有技术层面。我们当前的版本 Omarchy Quattro 非常棒。当然，我会这么说。这就是我刚才跟你说的。我是头号吹鼓手。我之所以是头号吹鼓手，是因为我热爱这个系统，但也因为我认为它有用。所以，我当然认为 Omarchy 很棒，最新版本是有史以来最好的 Omarchy。对吧？这是每家大型科技公司每场主题演讲的口号。但这也是事实。它真的很好，但它还可以好得多。

Then there's the technical part, too. The current version we have, Omarchy Quattro, is amazing. And I mean, of course, I'm going to say this. This is what I just told you about. I'm hype man number one. And I'm hype man number one because I love the system, but also because I think it serves a utility. So, of course, I think Omarchy is amazing and that the latest version is the best version of Omarchy yet. Right? That's the tagline from every keynote of every major tech company. But it's also true. It's really good, but it could be so much better.

那 3000 多个插件，其中很大一部分应该进入核心。我们应该把所有伟大的创意直接整合到系统里，让更多人打开更多电脑就能获得一切正常运行的绝妙体验。我不想听到“呃，我的蓝牙不能用，我的 Wi-Fi 不能用，我的 RGB 灯不能用，我的……”然后回答是“呃，去看 wiki 吧。”不，不，不，不，不，不。wiki 里的任何信息，我们都应该应用到软件中。实际上我认为，尽管人们喜爱 Arch wiki，它在现代是一个美丽的社区项目，但它是一种失败状态。如果你不得不写下变通方法，在我看来，你就应该投入精力去修复这个 bug——或者不是 bug，甚至去解决问题。为什么网络摄像头不能用？哦，如果你用的是这家公司生产的那个版本的机器，你得装某个奇怪的驱动。不，让我们全部修复。让我们全部放进系统里。与一切完美兼容。

The 3,000 plus plugins, a substantial number of those should be in the core. We should be integrating all this great creativity right into the box such that more people can open more computers and have this amazing experience where everything works. I do not want to hear, "Well, my Bluetooth didn't work, my Wi-Fi didn't work, my RGB lights didn't work, my" and then the answer be like, "Well, go look at a wiki." No, no, no, no, no, no. Whatever information is in the wiki, we should be applying to software. I actually think as much as people adore the Arch wiki and as beautiful of a community project that is in the modern age, it's a failure state. If you have to write down a workaround, in my opinion, you should put in the work to just fix the bug or not the bug, even fix the problem. Why doesn't the webcam work? Well, there's some weird driver you have to do if you're on this version of that machine made by this company. No, let's fix it all. Let's put it all in the box. Perfect compatibility with everything.

现在，如果你把这看作一个由八名志愿者在业余时间、没有智能体的情况下运行的小型爱好项目，那听起来很疯狂。不可能。完全做不到。但我说不是这个。我说的是拥有 2000 万美元资金、全职员工、数十万社区成员的 Omarchy 基金会。一旦你拥有了所有这些，再结合智能体时代，是的，我们可以修复一切。

Now, that sounds crazy if you're thinking of this in terms of a small hobby project run by eight volunteers next to their day job without agents. Impossible. Could not do that at all. But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the Omarchy Foundation with $20 million in the war chest, full-time employees, hundreds of thousands of community members. Once you have all of those things and then you combine it with the age of agents, yeah, we can fix everything.

我为此设定了非常具体的目标，既因为有趣，也因为它能创造一个里程碑。其中之一是与整个老款 Intel Mac 系列完美兼容，最早可追溯到支持 GPU 加速平铺窗口管理器的机型。我想大约 2009 年。实际上，苹果在 2009 到 2020 年间生产了极其多样的机型。只有 11 年，如果算上所有排列组合，大概有 50 种不同的机器，也许 100 种。我不知道。其中许多使用不同的 Wi-Fi 芯片、不同的蓝牙芯片、不同的 Nvidia 芯片等等。要弄清楚如何让它们全部工作有点麻烦。而标准答案，如我所说，是去 wiki，查找你的具体型号，看看支持程度如何，如果不支持，就忍着。不，不，不，不，不。让我们投入精力把它做到完美。

I'm setting very specific targets on that just both because it's fun and also because it creates a milestone. And one of them is perfect compatibility with the entire vintage Intel Mac range going back to the earliest that are compatible with GPU accelerated tiling window managers. I think about 2009. Now, Apple actually produced an enormous amount of variety over those years from 2009 to 2020. It's only 11 years and I think if you count up all the permutations, there's going to be, I don't know, 50 different machines, maybe 100. I don't know. And many of them use different Wi-Fi chips and different Bluetooth chips and different Nvidia chips and whatever else have you. And it's a bit of a mess to try to figure out like how do you get it all working? And the standard answer, as I said, was go to the wiki, try to look up your specific model number, see how well it's supported, and if it's not, then live with it. No, no, no, no, no. Let's just put in the work to make it perfect.

一旦我们完成了整个老款 Mac 系列，让我们做其他所有。让我们做所有联想机器、所有戴尔机器、所有一切。因为一旦你有了智能体加上数十万人，那是可能的。我不是说这很容易。我不是说我们明天就能做到。但我可以说，如果我们把所有这股势头投入进去，我们能在一年内完成吗？是的，我实际上认为老款系列会更早 100% 覆盖。

And then once we've done the entire vintage Mac range, let's do everything else. Let's do all the Lenovo machines, all the Dell machines, all the everything. Because once you have agents plus literally hundreds of thousands of people, that's possible. I'm not saying it's easy. I'm not saying we can do it tomorrow. But I can say that if we apply all of this momentum to it, could we do it in a year? Yeah, I actually think the vintage range is going to be 100% covered earlier than that.

我从中汲取的一个灵感实际上来自复古游戏社区。我喜欢复古游戏玩家的原因之一，既因为复古游戏好玩，也因为社区中许多人是强迫症式的收藏家。他们需要每个 ROM 的每个版本都处于完美全新状态，并消除或模拟。我想，让我们把一些这样的能量应用到与整个老款苹果系列的完美全新兼容性上。这有点像我们搞定了 N64 游戏库。没有哪个测试版游戏不能在这个模拟器上运行。我们全都做到了。让我们在硬件兼容性上也这样做。

And one inspiration I'm drawing from is actually the retro gaming community. One of the things I love about retro gamers is both because retro games are fun, but also because many of the people in the community are obsessive collectors. They need every version of every ROM in perfect mint condition and eliminate or emulation. And I'm thinking like let's apply some of that energy to perfect mint condition compatibility with the entire vintage Apple range. It's kind of like we got the N64 library pinned down. There is not a beta version of a game that cannot be run on this emulator. We've done it all. Let's do that with hardware compatibility.

然后让我们继续拥抱智能体时代。我们已经展示过将在即将到来的版本中推出的功能之一是语音模式。你应该能够与你的电脑对话，它就应该神奇地改变。比如，我想要这个插件追踪我最喜欢的运动队，它在——哦，那个数据在某个社区网站上，主流媒体不报道，但我可以让一个智能体去获取，现在我可以在顶部栏放一个小部件来追踪比分。只是给你一个例子。我们可以做一切，我们可以继续降低创造的门槛。这才是我真正感兴趣的。

Then let's continue to embrace the age of agents. One of the things we've shown that we're going to ship in one of the upcoming versions is voice modes. You should be able to talk to your computer and it should just change magically. Like I want this plugin to track my favorite sports team that plays in — oh, like that data is available on some community website somewhere not covered by major media, but I can get an agent on it and now I can have a little widget up in my top bar that keeps track of the score. Just giving you one example. We can do everything and we can continue to lower the bar on what it takes for someone to create. And that's what I'm really interested in.

正如我们谈到孩子时所说，我的兴趣是培养一代实干家、创造者，我认识到这是从我童年时代产生的，而在 iPad 时代，我不太认识到这一点。所以有百万个任务，我可以花几个小时谈论我们所有的项目。

As we talked about with the kids, my interest there is to grow a generation of doers, of makers, that I recognize from my childhood came out of that, and I'm not recognizing coming out quite as much in the iPad age. So there's a million missions and I could talk for hours about all the projects that we have.

如果你看看我们 Umachi 组织内部的基地营，也就是 Mamicon，有太多项目在同时全速推进。我甚至还没提到语言方面的东西，比如我们想要开箱即用的完美中文、日文、韩文输入。我想尽快把所有事情一次性全做完。而这正是为什么我觉得现在发生的是一个如此独特的局面。我用 Linux 已经 10 年了。大概四五年前我开始把 Arch Linux 当作日常主力系统。就像你说的，它一直只是个小众的东西，如果你遇到问题，你得去那里查，还会觉得有点丢人。但我觉得现在这是一件非常独特的事：一个拥有你这样技能组合的人——因为你创办过好几家公司，你组建过团队，你知道把事情做成意味着什么，而且你懂营销。我不确定以前是否发生过这种事：一个拥有你这样技能组合的人，而且说实话，还有你的财力和人脉，把这些投入到一款 Linux 发行版上。所以我觉得这是正在发生的、真正独一无二的事情，我真的很钦佩你把全部时间都投入到这上面，因为我只能看到这对整个 Linux 产生积极影响，让人们重新使用电脑、重新爱上电脑。我过去做过一些关于 Amari 的视频，算是有点辣的那种，但我真的很感激我们能进行这次对话，让我更了解到底是什么在驱动你。

If you were to look at the internal base camp we have for the Umachi organization, the Mamicon, there is just so many projects firing on so many cylinders. I haven't even talked about the language stuff, like we want to have perfect Chinese, Japanese, Korean inputs, everything out of the box. I want to do all of it all at once as quickly as possible. And this is exactly why I think this is such a unique situation that's happening. I've been using Linux for 10 years. I started daily driving Arch Linux maybe four or five years ago. And as you say, it was always just this niche thing, and if you had a problem, you had to look there and be embarrassed and that kind of thing. But I think it's such a unique thing now that someone with your skill set, because you've built multiple companies, you have built teams, you know what it means to get stuff done, and you understand marketing. And I'm not sure if that has ever happened before, where someone with your skill set, and let's face it, your means as well, and your network, applies that to a Linux distro. So I think that is something that's truly unique that's happening, and I really admire that you dedicate all of your time towards this, because I can only see this having a positive effect on Linux as a whole, getting people to use computers, fall in love with computers again. And I've made some video, like moderately spicy videos about Amari in the past, but I really appreciate that we could have this conversation so I understand a bit more what's actually driving you here.

那么如果我们再想想更广泛的普及，让孩子们用上 Linux，那对我这个 DevOps 工程师来说，我立刻就会想到安全，因为更多的自由也意味着更多的责任，对吧？我知道你现在已经融了 2000 万，其中一部分会投入到安全团队。我们在 X 上也讨论过一些安全话题。所以在我可能建议几个我们可以讨论的话题之前，你能不能先给我们更新一下 Amachi 项目目前在安全方面的情况？

So if we then think of a broader adoption, getting kids to use Linux, then for me as a DevOps engineer, I start thinking immediately about security, because with more freedom there also comes more responsibility, right? So I know that you've raised 20 million now, and a part of that is going to a security team. We've had some discussions about security as well on X. So before I maybe suggest a couple of topics to look into that we could maybe discuss, like, could you just update us on what's happening on the security front on the Amachi project right now?

是的，这极其重要。实际上，自从 Amachi Quattro 发布以来，它一直是我们的头号优先事项。这也是我们没有推出很多新功能的原因之一，因为我想确保我们的底层基础是稳固的，当然我们需要在这方面的帮助。在我做的所有其他事情之外，我并不是一名专业的安全研究员。我依赖的是这样一个事实：广义上来说，Linux 社区里有大量非常擅长安全的人，而且 Omachi 所由之构成的绝大多数组件都非常安全，因为它们受到大量审查，也因为 Linux 运行在一切设备上。所以我们有一个非常安全的基础来在其上构建。这不是 Windows 95，对吧？我不是在一个摇摇欲坠、满是漏洞的基础上构建东西。我是在该死的 Linux 之上构建。

Yes, it's hugely important. It's actually the number one priority we've had since launch of Amachi Quattro. It's one of the reasons why we've not pushed out a lot of new features, because I wanted to make sure that the underpinnings we had were solid, and of course we needed help with that. I am not, on top of all the other things that I do, an expert security researcher. I rely on the fact that the Linux community broadly speaking has a ton of people who are very good at security, and that most of the components that Omachi is made up of are very secure because they get lots of scrutiny and because Linux runs on everything. So we have a very secure foundation to build this on top of. This is not Windows 95, right? I'm not building something on top of a very shaky foundation that is just full of holes. I'm building on top of damn Linux.

这也正是我听到的一种奇怪的反对意见：这些人一方面想声称 Omachi 只是一堆 dot files，另一方面又想声称我们 somehow 有所有这些非常独特的安全漏洞。那这不是二选一吗？我的意思是，我理解 dot files、配置文件里可能存在安全漏洞。你举过一个例子，我记得是如果你装了某个别的终端，我忘了是哪个，kitty——kitty 有个选项默认是开启的，有些人觉得那是个糟糕的选项，完全合理，我们可以讨论这些文件以及你能从中打开什么漏洞。但我的意思是，我们用的是标准的 OpenSSL 库、标准的内核、标准的这个那个。所以这里有点认知失调，而且我并不总认为这些反对意见是善意的。

And this is also the curious objection I've heard from people who both want to claim that Omachi is just a bunch of dot files, but then also want to claim that somehow we have all these very unique security vulnerabilities. Well, isn't it one or the other? I mean, I understand that there can be security vulnerabilities in the dot files, in the configs. You had one example of, I think, if you had installed some other terminal, I forget which, kitty — kitty has an option that the default option was turned on, and there were some people who thought that was a bad option, and totally fair, we can discuss this. Files and what holes you can open than that. But I mean, we're using whatever the standard OpenSSL lib, the standard kernel, the standard this, that, and the other thing. So there's a little bit of cognitive dissonance there, and I don't always think the objections are in good faith.

但我甚至不在乎它们是不是善意的，因为如果他们发现了什么，我们就会修复它。现在我们有了第一个团队，实际上在核心团队之后成立的第一个团队就是安全团队，确保我们有一批每天都在处理这类事情的资深专业人士，作为志愿力量的一部分来做这件事。然后第二件事是开始招聘在这方面有深厚专业知识的人。Kristoff，Linux 内核维护者——不只是开发者，而是维护者，负责 PCI 子系统的一部分以及 Linux 内核的其他问题——他是，是怎么来着？是第一个雇员吗？属于第一批雇员。这个，过去这段时间发生了很多事……

But I don't even care whether they're in good faith or not, because if they find something, we will fix it. And now we have the first team actually that got incorporated after the core team was the security team, made sure that we have a bunch of seasoned professionals who work with this on a daily basis be part of a volunteer force to do it. Then the second thing was to start hiring people with deep expertise in this. Kristoff, the Linux kernel maintainer — not just developer, but maintainer who is responsible for part of the PCI subsystem and other issues with the Linux kernel — was, is it how it go? Was it the first hire? Part of the first group of hires. This, a lot has been happening over the last...

而且我们一直在发布很多公告。我都在想，我们到底是按什么顺序做的这些？

And a lot of things we keep doing the announcement. I'm like, which order did we do these in?

但他加入的部分原因不只是我想要最快、兼容性最好的内核——这当然是一个很大的动机——还因为他有 Linux 内核加固的背景，我们需要这样的专业人士加入。同样地，当我们从 Quickshell 聘请 Outfox 时——他对如何编写安全的系统有很多见解。那么，我们在所有事情上都完全到位了吗？不，当然没有。我们才刚开始。Holomachi 项目才一年多一点。

But he came on in part not just because I wanted to have the fastest kernel with the best compatibility — that's a big motivation, of course — but also because he comes from a background of Linux kernel hardening, and we need professionals like that on board. The same thing when we hired Outfox from Quickshell — he has a lot of opinions about how to write secure systems. Now, are we fully there with all the things? No, of course we're not. We just got started. The Holomachi project is one year and change old.

现在，我们有幸得到了网上很多积极的安全研究者的关注。我觉得这是比较礼貌的说法。他们把自己的时间和精力投入到寻找问题上。其中一些人负责任地向 security.org 披露。我感谢他们。我们感谢他们。我们现在有一个专门的安全致谢页面，把他们都列出来并给予认可。事实上，第一个做这种负责任披露的人是 Cloudflare 的一名实习生，不久之后就拿到了正式录用通知。所以我认为这里有这样的机制：Linux 可以成为你以积极方式充实自己 CVE 记录的载体，通过做出贡献，并能指出这些贡献被业内其他同行所认可。所以我觉得这非常好。

Now, we've been blessed with attention from a lot of motivated security researchers online. That's, I think, the polite way of putting it. Who are donating their time and energy into finding issues. Some of them are responsibly disclosing that to security.org. I thank them. We thank them. We now have a special security credits page that calls them all out and gives them credit for that. And in fact, the first person who did that responsible disclosure was an intern at Cloudflare who shortly thereafter got a permanent job offer. So I think there's mechanisms here where Linux can be a vehicle for you to pad your CVE in positive ways by making contributions and being able to point to those contributions as recognized by other peers in the industry. So I think that's very good.

然后我们也会遇到 Twitter 上另一类人，他们发现了什么，而且对 Amachi 有各种不满。于是他们就很不负责任地披露出来，我也感谢他们。我们通过这种方式发现的很多问题其实是上游问题，实际上是所有 Linux 发行版都存在的问题。所以 Omachi 正在吸引一种新的能量和关注。有时候这算是某种“仇恨式找茬”。好吧，行。我也接受。我不挑剔。如果你在 Amachi 上发现了安全问题，我希望你能负责任地报告；如果你不这么做，我们仍然会修复它。

Then we also get the other kind of people on Twitter who find something and who have whatever bone to pick with Amachi about that. So they just disclose it irresponsibly, and I thank them too. A lot of the ones that we found that way were upstream problems that were actually issues in all Linux distributions. So Omachi is drawing in a new kind of energy and attention. Sometimes it's kind of hatefinding. Okay, fine. I'll take that too. I'm not picky. If you find an issue on security in Amachi, I hope you will report it responsibly, and if you don't, we will still fix it.

所以，我们有这一切。我们有所有的投入，而且我们还有一堆正在筹备中、尚未能公布的项目，不过就在上这次通话之前，我刚好和一位做智能体方面的人通了话，他们可以让我们使用专门为此类事情训练的网络安全模型。

So, we have all of that. We have all the investments, and we got a bunch of programs in the pipeline too that we haven't been able to announce yet, but just actually before hopping on this call, a call with someone on the agentic side who can give us access to cyber security models that are trained for this kind of stuff.

我们会把这一切都做好，我致力于让 Omarchy 尽可能像 Linux 发行版一样安全，因为它是一切的基础。如果我们继续推进、继续获得采用，结果这东西变成了 Windows 95，那就全白费了。但这也需要精细的努力，需要专注。它目前是第一优先级，但同时也是我们要依靠整个 Linux 社区的地方。我们不必全靠自己来做这件事。你不是从零开始构建一切，对吧？这些东西大多都经过了实战检验。Linux 内核已经有 30 年历史，受到了大量关注。所以我认为这是个严肃的问题，需要警惕、关注、投入、招人和专注。我也认为 Omarchy 在这方面受到的特别关注被完全夸大了。

We will do all of it, and I am committed to Omarchy being as secure as a Linux distribution possibly can be, because it is the foundation of everything. If we keep going and keep getting adoption, and this thing becomes Windows 95, it's all for nothing. But it also requires delicate effort. It requires focus. It currently is the number one priority, but it's also something where we lean on the rest of the Linux community. We don't have to do this all by ourselves. You're not building everything from scratch, right? Most of these things are battle tested. The Linux kernel has got 30 years on it and a lot of attention to it. So I think it's a serious issue and requires vigilance and attention and investment and hiring and focus. And I also think the specific focus that Omarchy is getting in that area is completely overblown.

但另一方面，我觉得你说的是，因为它的流行、巨大的曝光度，以及社区中很大一部分人的负面态度，他们于是出于恶意开始寻找负面东西或安全漏洞。

But on the other hand, I think what you said is that because of the popularity and the large exposure and the negative attitude of a large part of the community, they then out of spite start looking for negative things or security flaws.

是的。

Yes.

最终他们反而为 March 甚至 Linux 做出了贡献。所以从这个意义上说，这完全是件非常积极的事。

In the end they end up contributing to March and even Linux in the end. So in that sense it's only a very positive thing.

我也做了一场直播，谈了我对 Omarchy 安全性的看法，其中我谈到的一点是 Arch 用户仓库。所以针对你的观点，你说内核在这方面非常安全，

So I also did a stream on giving my takes on security in Omarchy, and one thing that I talked about was the Arch User Repository. So to your point, you're saying the kernel is very secure in that sense,

但那个直播下面有几条评论，我在直播里解释了 Arch 用户仓库实际上没有经过审查。它没有被扫描。就像

but one of several comments under that live stream where I explained that the Arch User Repository is actually not vetted. It's not scanned. Like

没错。

That's correct.

里面可能有任何东西。

Anything could be in there.

评论区有人说：“哦，我做了多年高级软件工程师。我在用 Omarchy，我完全不知道。”

And there were people in the comments saying, "Oh, I've been a senior software engineer for years. I was running Omarchy and I had no idea."

所以，嗯，我是说，这一点很重要。让我在这里更正一下。

So, well, I mean, it's important for that point. Let me just correct the record there.

Omarchy 对系统内置的任何东西都不使用 AUR。AUR 的存在是为了让那些自愿去那里找软件的人作为可选安装。我认为 AUR 里充满了很棒的东西，我们通常引导人们去用的是 Brave 或其他浏览器，那些仓库由公司控制等等。但没错，我认为它有 117,000 个包。很多是由志愿者完成的，而 AUR 的设计来自一个天真的时代。有点像最初的电子邮件协议设计，做电子邮件的人没想到这个世界上会有垃圾邮件发送者。所以协议并不是为此而设计的。AUR 建立在一个实际上很令人钦佩的想法上：嘿，我们只是一群有趣的人想把软件打包起来。他们没怎么考虑恶意方面，也没有加固他们的分发网络。他们很长一段时间里有很多次宕机。这实际上就是导致它关闭 AUR 的原因。Omarchy 最初的版本确实有 AUR 依赖，但很快就修复了，部分或主要是因为他们的可用性问题，然后这就是为什么我们搭建了自己的镜像，然后我们搭建了自己的包仓库，然后我们干脆就说，你知道吗，我们不需要 AUR 和这些东西，我们应该控制自己的包和自己的构建流水线。但我也认为你可以走得太远，我认为 AUR 是一个不可思议的资源，就像 npm——npm 是 JavaScript 包的不可思议的资源——Ruby gems 是 Ruby 软件的不可思议的仓库，还有 crates 和 Go。实际上有很多软件仓库，如果你运行那些东西而不读每一行代码，你就会面临潜在问题。NPM 见过很多。NPM 仍然运行着世界上每个主要网站，对吧？它仍然是那些流水线的一部分。我认为我们需要认真对待它，同时也不要因噎废食。个人能够在互联网上发布软件实际上是件好事。现在它有问题。我们应该有控制措施。而且我认为智能体时代实际上让这比我们原本能做到的要容易得多。如果智能体有一件事非常擅长，那就是发现安全问题。我是说，这是人们惊慌失措的原因之一，因为它可以被用于攻击。但智能体的防御能力也非常好。因此，我们有一条直通 AUR 现代版本的路径，它拥抱智能体，也许在采用包方面有一些不那么天真的政策，以及他们遇到的其他一些问题。但我们不应该因噎废食。任何人都应该能够在互联网上分发软件，然后重建控制、检查等等，使其尽可能安全，同时接受如果你运行别人写的代码，就有风险，而这不应该让我们远离计算机。

Omarchy does not use the AUR for anything that's in the box. What the AUR is there for is as an optional install for people who want on their own accord to go find software there. Now I think the AUR is full of great stuff, and what we generally point folks to is like Brave or whatever other browsers that the repos are controlled by the companies and so forth. But yes, I think it's 117,000 packages. Many of them are done by volunteers, and the AUR design is one from a naive era. Kind of like the original email protocol design, where the people who did email didn't think that there'd be spammers in this world. So the protocol is not really made for that. The AUR is made on a very actually admirable idea that hey, we're just a bunch of fun people wanting to package software up. They weren't thinking so much about the malicious aspects of it, and they haven't hardened their distribution network either. They had a lot of outages for a long time. This was actually what caused it to switch off the AUR. The original version of Omarchy did have AUR dependencies that got fixed very quickly, partly or majorly because of the availability issues that they had, and then that was why we stood up our own mirror, and then we stood up our own package repository, and then we simply just went like, you know what, we don't need the AUR and any of this stuff, we should be controlling our own packages and our own build pipeline. But I also think that you can go too far, and I think that the AUR is an incredible resource in the same way that npm — and npm is an incredible resource for JavaScript packages — that Ruby gems is an incredible repository for Ruby software, and crates and Go. Like there are actually a lot of software repositories where if you run those things without reading every line of code, you are exposed to potential issues. NPM has seen a lot of them. NPM still runs every major website in the world, right? Like it's still part of those pipelines. I think we need to take it seriously and then also not throw the baby out with the bathwater. Like it's actually good that individuals can publish software on the internet. Now there are issues with it. We should have controls around it. And I think this age of agents actually makes it way easier than we would otherwise have. If there's one thing the agents are very good at, it is to find security issues. I mean, this is one of the reasons people are freaking out, because that can be used offensively. But the defensive capability of agents is incredibly good. Therefore, we have a straight path to a modern version of the AUR that embraces agents, that perhaps have some slightly less naive policies around adopting packages and some of the other problems that they've had. But we should not be throwing out the baby with the bathwater. It should be possible for anyone to distribute software on the internet and then rebuild in controls and checks and whatever to make that as secure as it can be, while accepting that if you run code written by someone else, there's a risk, and it should not scare us away from computers.

是的，没错。你知道，但为了了解 Omarchy 的当前状态，当有人现在安装 Omarchy 时，AUR 没有启用，他们需要做一个操作才能启用它，才能开始从它下载。

Yes, exactly. And you know, but as — so just to get the current state of Omarchy, so when someone installs Omarchy right now, the AUR is not enabled and they have to like do an action in order to enable it in order to start downloading from it.

你现在安装时，不使用任何 AUR 包，不更新任何 AUR 包，流程中没有任何东西依赖 AUR。有的是，如果你去安装，你会看到 AUR 包仓库。现在默认是安装包。在那里你只会看到 Arch 主仓库加上 Omarchy 仓库。这些是我们保证的包，对吧？嗯，尽你所能保证，但 Arch 在勤勉地做包管理方面有很好的声誉。我们一直在构建自己的包仓库。其中一些基于原始的 AUR 包，我们审查后，一旦满意就放入包仓库。但如果你在那里找不到你要找的东西，我们给你使用 AUR 的选项。如果你确实使用 AUR，你会看到这个界面，你可以对 117,000 个包进行排序。我想如果你按 Alt+D，你就能看到包的构建。所以你可以按你认为合适的方式审查这些东西。你也可以决定 AUR 作为一个概念就是你不想要用的东西。你觉得它风险因素太多。很好。别用它。事实上，我不太用 AUR，因为我们已经设法把我需要的一切都打包在 Omarchy 包仓库里了。事实上，就是这样。每当有我想要的一个包，它就会进入包仓库，因为这样我就不会在运行时依赖 AUR 等等。

When you install right now, no AUR packages are used, no AUR packages are updated, there's nothing in the flow that lies in the AUR. What is there is if you go to install, you will be shown the AUR package repository. Now default is install packages. There you will just be shown the Arch main repos plus the Omarchy repo. These are the packages we guarantee, right? Well, as much as you can guarantee, but Arch has a really good reputation for diligently doing package management. We've been building our own package repository. Some of it is based on original AUR packages that we then reviewed and put into the package repository once we were happy with that. But then if you can't find what you're looking for there, we give you the option of using the AUR. And if you do use the AUR, you're presented with this interface where you can sort the 117,000 packages. And I think it's if you push alt D, you get to see the package build. So you can review all this stuff as you see fit. And you can also decide that the AUR as a concept is just not something you want to use. You think there's too many risk factors to it. Great. Don't use it. In fact, I don't use the AUR very much because we've managed to package everything I need on the Omarchy package repos. In fact, that's how it goes. Whenever there's a package I want, it goes into the package repository because then I'm not runtime dependent on the AUR and so forth.

有时 AUR 只是邀请我们做自己的包管理，将来甚至不会有 AUR。我们正朝着对软件包的完全主权迈进，包括托管和构建它们。但在实现之前，我也想让人们知道，嘿，这里是狂野西部。你可以睁大眼睛进去，明白那意味着什么。可能有人在酒馆里朝你开枪，但也挺刺激，还有酷马。所以你自己选择要做什么。我不想创造苹果。我不想重建锁定的电脑。

Sometimes the AUR just serves as an invitation for us to do our own package management, and in time there's not even going to be AUR. We're working towards full sovereignty around packages, about hosting them and building them. But as we get there, I also want to allow people to know, hey, here's the wild west. You can go in there eyes wide open about what that means. Someone might shoot you in the saloon, but it's also a little exciting and there's cool horses. So you choose what you want to do. I don't want to create Apple. I don't want to recreate the locked-down computer.

我想要一台既开放又安全的电脑，狂野西部和文明之间的界线清晰划分。实际上我相信我们现在就有。

I want to have an open computer that is also safe, where the line between the Wild West and civilization is demarcated. I actually believe we have that right now.

现在，你可能会不同意，说有人可能误入 AUR，什么都不知道就安装了东西。

Now, you could maybe disagree and say, well, someone could stumble into the AUR and they didn't know anything and then they installed something.

是的。那是自由成年人的责任。

Yep. That's a liability of free adults.

嗯，我有个想法，即使不是默认启用，但如果你第一次要从 AUR 安装东西，也许可以弹出一个提示，至少告诉你，你要安装的东西未经审查，就一次，教育一下人们。因为如果连资深软件工程师都不知道 AUR 的实际情况，如果只是一个简单的提示，虽然很多人根本不看，但至少你尝试过了，对吧。

And well, I think but just one idea here, but even if we just like if it's not enabled by default but if you then are about to install something from the AUR for the first time, if you just have maybe something popping up that would at least give some information of okay what you're about to install is something that has not been looked at, just one time just to educate people because if a senior software engineer doesn't know that is actually the case with the AUR, if it's just one simple like nobody like many people don't even read this thing but at least at least you've tried then right.

是的，但我其实不太在乎尝试。我在乎结果。我认为我们学到的是，这些弹窗效果不大。

Yeah, but I don't actually care so much for attempts. I care for results. And what I think we've learned, if anything, these popups they don't have a lot of effect.

已经证明了，对吧？人们被训练成只要想用电脑，就一直点确定直到软件出现，对吧？同意条款。

Demonstrated, right? People have been trained that if they want to use their computer, they just click okay until the software appears, right? Agree to terms.

我其实不想在希望和梦想的基础上构建软件。在这方面，我想在有效和实际的基础上构建。我不认为警告屏幕非常有效，因为过去几十年我们训练用户忽略所有这些东西。而且我认为 Mac 现在在这方面尤其糟糕，因为有 17000 个弹窗告诉你这个那个。他们在 2000 年代曾经有个广告叫 PC 对 Mac，取笑 Windows 有所有这些弹窗，现在他们自己变成了那样。再次，这里可能有一条线。我甚至不完全反对。我认为我们必须现实地看待这样的东西能做什么？如果你放一个东西说，嘿，小心。你自己负责。现在你进入狂野西部了。你可能会对自己说，至少我尝试了。但如果它实际上不起作用，我怀疑那是该走的路。我宁愿从根本上解决问题。长期来看，根本问题是我们应该审查所有软件包。我们应该对整个构建管道拥有完全主权。

I don't actually care to build software on the basis of hopes and dreams. In that regard, I care to build it on top of what works and what is effective. I don't think nack screens or warning screens are terribly effective because I think we've trained users over the past several decades to ignore all of them. And I think the Mac is actually particularly egregious about this now because there's 17,000 popups telling you this, that, and the other thing. They literally used to have an ad for this called PC versus Mac back in the 2000s making fun of Windows for having all these pop-ups, and now they've become that themselves. Again, there could be a line here. I'm not even totally against it. I think we just have to be realistic about what does something like that do? If you put in a thing that says like, hey, be careful. You're on your own accord. Now you're into the wild west. You could maybe say to yourself, well, at least I tried. But if it doesn't actually work, I'm skeptical that that's the path to go. I'd rather fix the problem at the root. And long-term, the root of the problem is we should be reviewing all the packages. We should have full sovereignty over the entire build pipeline.

Omarchy 有望成为一个基础发行版，拥有自己的包处理等等。我们现在在 Arch 之上引导。我们使用 Arch 仓库。我们允许人们使用 AUR，但最终状态是我们是一个不依赖任何人的基础发行版。我们会向上游贡献，我们会合作。我们会做所有事情，但我们会为整个包承担全部责任。现在，我不知道 Debian 或 Arch 花了多久才达到那里。有一段时间。我们不会明天就达到，但我们会很快达到，因为我们有资源。我们有势头。我们有智能体。我们有社区。我们完全可以做到。我不知道上一个真正的基础发行版是什么时候出现的，但我们正在做一个。所以，这就是指定的路径。

Omarchy is on track stated to become a foundational distribution with its own package handling, and whatever, like we're bootstrapping on top of Arch right now. We use the Arch repos. We allow people to use the AUR, but the final state is we're a foundational distribution that depends on no one for nothing. We will upstream, we will collaborate. We will do all the things, but we will take full responsibility for the entire package. Now, I don't know how long it took Debian or Arch or whatever to get there. A while. We're not getting there tomorrow, but we're going to get there quickly because we have the resources. We have the momentum. We have the agents. We have the community. We could totally do this. I don't know when the last time a true foundational distro appeared, but we're making one. So, that's the designated path here.

是的。我的意思是，我不会在安全问题上就这样让步，就像我真的至少如果你有一个儿童版，如果那甚至会成为一件事，会有儿童版。

Yeah. I mean, I'm not going to give in just like that on the security thing though with the thing like I would really at least if you have a kids version, if that is even going to be a thing, there will be a kids version.

是的。他们不能安装任何东西。所以我们现在正在做很多。他们不会有 sudo。

It is. And they won't be able to install anything. So we're making a lot right now. They will not have sudo.

这意味着他们实际上不能自行安装软件包。

Which means we can actually not install packages on their own accord.

嗯，这很好。因为当我听说我们要为孩子们做东西，然后他们可以搜索 AUR 并安装东西，我会认为那是灾难的配方。我这么说的原因不是因为我讨厌 Omarchy 在这样宣传下被大规模黑客攻击并得到巨大的负面宣传。对。我不是因为想讨厌 Omarchy 才这么说。

Well this is okay that's great. So because when I hear we're going to make something for kids and then they can just search the AUR and install something then I would think that is a recipe for disaster. And the reason I say that is not because I would hate for something with Omarchy with this publicity to get like a huge hack and get a huge you know negative publicity. Right. That's that I'm not saying this because I want to hate on Omarchy.

不，不，但这就是问题所在，这就是我现在不想看到的事情，尤其是在这种势头下。所以，同样，这就是为什么我在群里明确表示第一要务是安全，我们需要确保这一点。这并不意味着我们能抓住所有问题，我的意思是 Linux 内核每天发布的 CVE 数量很多，大多数不是零日远程执行问题，有些是安全或问题，我们需要修复所有这些，无论是来自上游还是我们的包中，我百分百同意。当我谈论狂野西部时，我指的是知情或不知情。我指的是成年人。一旦你是成年人并拥有自己的电脑，我相信你应该能够为所欲为。好吧，在法律范围内，对吧？比如不要用你的电脑做任何事。但即使你做了，那实际上不在我的限制范围内，对吧？我卖给你一把叉子和勺子。如果你用那把叉子和勺子去，我不知道，挖出监狱或刺伤某人，我不能为此负责。我不认为那是一条好路。孩子们，非常不同。孩子们，你需要让他们生活中的成年人，首先是父母，能够合理地保护他们。这就是我们要用 Omarchy 套件做的。这里有一个为儿童设置的 Omarchy 版本或路径，他们无法访问 sudo。他们可以访问有限的白名单 DNS 来使用网络，如果你想用的话。他们有要么时间限制要么时间提醒。这就是所有工作需要做的。我今天不会想，哦，我应该直接给一个孩子一台 Omarchy 机器，没有任何指导，没有帮助。现在，我这么说，然后我也记得我自己的童年，14 岁时在卧室里运行一个精英 BBS 系统，交易盗版软件。嗯，所以我不知道。

No no but that's the thing, that's the thing that I would hate to see right now with this momentum. So that and same here that's why literally in the groups I've stated number one priority is security that we need to make sure that this is now that doesn't mean we're going to catch everything I mean the number of CVEs that are published every day for the Linux kernel is long, most of them are not kind of zero day remote execution issues some of them are rather secure or issues right we need to fix all of that whether it comes from upstream whether it's in our package and I 100% agree. When I talk about the Wild West, I'm talking about informed or less informed. I'm talking about adults. Once you're an adult and you own your own computer, it is my belief you should be able to do whatever the hell you want with that now. Well, within the laws, right? Like don't use your computer for whatever. But even if you do, that's actually not within my limit, right? I'm selling you a fork and a spoon. If you use that fork and a spoon to, I don't know, dig out a prison or shank someone, I can't be taking responsibility for that. And I don't think that's a good path to go for. Kids, very different. Kids, you need to enable the adults in their life, their parents first and foremost, to protect them reasonably. And that's what we're going to do with Omarchy kits. Here's a version of Omarchy or path of Omarchy that you set up for a child where they do not have access to sudo. They have access to a limited whitelisted DNS for using the web if that's what you want to use. They have either time limits or time nudges. That's what all that work needs to be. I would not today think, oh, I should just give an Omarchy machine to a child with no instruction about anything, no help. Now, I'm saying that and then I also remember my own childhood and running an elite BBS system out of my bedroom at 14, trading piracy software. Um, so I don't know.

我的意思是，有时候我两种方式都有一点，但无论如何，我希望 Omarchy 成为一个家长可以信任的地方，我们在这方面还有工作要做。它还没达到那个程度，但我们很快就会开始。有一整个团队。有一个 Discord 频道，有数百人在为此工作，不仅从技术角度，还有艺术方面——比如我们在做非常具体的儿童主题，就是健康、美好以及所有其他东西。然后对于成年人，我现在说的是，嘿，你知道吗？Omarchy 不是 Ubuntu。它目前并不想成为它。它仍然处于先驱到早期采用者的阶段。那些人应该能够接触到前沿。他们应该能够接触到狂野西部。它应该是分开的。应该有一部分像是：这里是城镇。有治安官，如果有人进来，他会处理。那是我们自己的软件包。那是我们的 Arch 引导。然后就在那边，狂野西部。

I mean, sometimes I have it a little bit of both ways, but either way, I want Omarchy to be a place that parents can trust and we have work to do there. It's not there yet, but we're going to get started very soon. There's a whole team. There's a Discord channel with literally hundreds of people working on this, not just from the technical perspective, but also from the art—like we're doing very specific kids themes that are just wholesome and nice and all the other stuff. And then for adults, I'm saying right now, hey, do you know what? Omarchy is not Ubuntu. It's not trying to be it at this point. It is still in the pioneer to early adopter stage. And those people should have access to the frontier. They should have access to the Wild West. It should be separate. There should be a part of it that's like here's town. There's a sheriff and if someone comes in there, he's going to take care of it. That's our own packages. And that's our Arch bootstrapping. And then also right over there, Wild West.

是的。嗯，我真的很高兴我们能澄清这一点，因为就像当你只看你的 X 时间线，或者当你说 Omarchy 儿童版时，事情可能会被断章取义。

Yeah. Well, I'm really glad we could clarify this because like when you just look at your X timeline, or when you say Omarchy for kids, then things can get taken out of context.

是的。

Yes.

包括我自己，我也仅基于那些信息就下了结论。所以，我真的很高兴你说安全是第一要务。我们正在为儿童开发 Omarchy。我不能再奢求更多了。所以听到这个真的很棒。

And myself included, I also came to conclusions based on just that information. So, I'm really glad that you say that security is a first priority. We're working on Omarchy for kids. Like there's not more that I could wish for. So that's really awesome to hear.

这就是为什么播客更适合最近的交流。就像在 X 上，我们只有 240 个字符。即使我发关于安全的推文，大多数时候如果我只是发关于安全的积极事情，它不会传播，因为人们想看到的是街上的尸体，对吧？所以如果有人发现了什么，它会传播，但如果我只是说“嘿，这是我们正在做的所有关于安全的积极事情”，它就不会传播。所以播客是更好的格式。我们还在 omarchy.org/security 上有一个相当深入的安全页面，详细说明了负责任的披露协议、团队、我们正在做的事情以及所有其他东西。所以我们非常认真地对待它。它是基础性的。如果你在当今世界不关注这一点，你就不会成功。

This is why podcasts are so much better for recent exchange. Like on X, we have 240 characters. And even if I tweet about security, most of the time if I'm just tweeting positive things about security, it doesn't travel because like what people want to see is a dead body in the streets, right? So it'll travel if there's someone who finds something, but it won't travel if I just go like, "Hey, here's all these positive things we're doing about security." So podcasting is a much better format for that. And we also have a fairly in-depth security page on omarchy.org/security that details the responsible disclosure protocol, the team, what we're doing, and all this other stuff. So take it incredibly serious. It is foundational. If you're not focused on that in today's world, you're not going to make it.

确实。嗯，我认为这是结束播客的一个非常好的陈述。David，非常感谢你为 Linux、桌面 Linux 所做的一切。我只能想象孩子们在平铺窗口管理器而不是 iPad 中长大将会产生多么积极的影响。如果我有孩子，那会是我要做的第一件事，就是尝试找到一些他们可以从第一天就开始使用的 Linux 发行版。所以，感谢你所有的努力、时间、金钱，你投入的一切，继续做好工作，伙计。

Exactly. Well, I think that's a really good statement to end the podcast with. David, thank you so much for what you are doing for Linux, desktop Linux. And I can only imagine what positive effect it's going to have for kids to grow up with a tiling window manager instead of an iPad. If I had a kid, like that would be the first thing I would do is try to find some Linux distribution that they could start using from day one. So, thank you for all of your effort, time, money, what you're putting into this and keep up the good work, man.

非常感谢。感谢邀请我。

Thank you so much. Thanks for having me on.

David，人们可以在哪里找到你？

David, where can people find you?

他们可以在 omarchy.org 上找到 Omarchy 项目。就是 omarchy——我拼出来是因为它不总是按拼写发音——omarchy.org。那是通往一切的门户。然后我的个人网站是 dhh.dk。所以在那里你可以找到我参与的一切，包括商业方面的 Basecamp、Ruby on Rails、我写的书等等。然后 omarchy.org 是项目的一切。

They can find the Omarchy project on omarchy.org. That's omarchy—I'm spelling it out because it doesn't always pronounce like it spells—omarchy.org. That's the portal to everything. And then my personal website is just dhh.dk. So that's where you can get everything I'm involved with both in the commercial side with Basecamp, Ruby on Rails, books I've written, whatever else. And then omarchy.org is everything for the project.

我们会把所有这些链接放在下面的描述中。

And we'll be putting all those links down in the description below.