Danny Martinez：在当今设计就业市场中脱颖而出

欢迎来到 Dive Club。我是 Rid，这里是设计师永不停歇的学习之地。本周的嘉宾是 Danny Martinez，他是 Decimals 的 CEO，这个平台几乎支撑着我在 Dive Talent Network 里做的所有事情。不用说，Danny 对当今设计招聘的现状有着绝佳的观察视角。所以，我们将深入探讨一些对设计师和招聘经理都至关重要的要点，我们甚至会屏幕共享一些目前在网络中取得成功的作品集案例。那么，让我们直接切入 Danny 注意到的一些关键趋势吧。

Welcome to Dive Club. My name is Rid and this is where designers never stop learning. This week's episode is with Danny Martinez, who's the CEO of Decimals, which is the platform that I use to power pretty much everything that I'm doing with the Dive Talent Network. Needless to say, Danny has an incredible vantage point into the state of design hiring today. So, we're going to do a little deep dive into some of the key takeaways for both designers and hiring managers, and we even screen share a few examples of portfolios that are having success in the network today. So, let's start by jumping right into some of the key trends that Danny's noticing.

我觉得可以说，眼下感觉就像大家脚下的地面在移动。结果就是你会看到一些很奇怪的现象。人们用各种新的职位头衔来描述他们想要找的人。人们其实并不太清楚理想的候选人到底应该是什么样。我首先想到的一点是，当我们最初开始和招聘经理交流、在 Decimals 起步的时候，我们问的是：跟我聊聊理想的候选人吧，给我具体信息，说说他们的背景。后来我逐渐得出结论：变化太大了，招聘经理告诉你的很多东西和他们过去习惯的完全不同，以至于他们会抛出一些古怪的要求，比如“他们必须有绝佳的品味”，你只能说好吧，这很棒，但我没法用这个来做什么。然后你深入到职位头衔，即使在那里，它可能有点帮助，但也可能把你引向错误的方向。所以，我觉得讨论最多的就是设计工程师。每当我遇到一个新公司、新的招聘经理告诉我他们想要一个设计工程师时，我就会说：好，我们先暂停一下，不要用“设计工程师”这个词。告诉我你到底想要什么。不同招聘经理给出的答案千差万别。我简化思考的方式是：你是想要一个会用 Claude Code 的设计师，因为这样的人很多；还是想要一个受过工程师训练、有工程师背景、能自己做设计的人？这是两种非常不同的画像，但人们却用同一个术语来指代他们。如果非要指出一个主题，那就是现在变化太多了，以至于当你和不同的人交谈时，他们可能以为自己在招聘同一个角色，可能用同一个名字来描述这个角色，但实际上却截然不同。普遍的主题是：我想要一个爱折腾的人，使用最新工具，重新定义设计师的含义。我们有一位公司的创始人，我不透露他的名字，但大家都会知道他是谁，是一家非常知名的公司。他对我说：“嘿，我想招聘一个不再仅仅认同自己是设计师的设计师。他们在创建原型，自己做 PR，他们在重新思考在当前环境下自己的角色意味着什么。”我觉得这就是我和设计师们交流越多越感受到的。我和一个叫 Oscar Lozano 的人聊过，他最近刚加入 Lovable，他描述的方式是：如果我看看我现在做的工作和 18 个月前做的相比，完全是不同的游戏，完全变了。规则不再一样了。我们多年来依赖的工程、产品设计这些孤岛，这些交接点，所有这些都被撕掉了。那不再有用了。

I feel like it's pretty fair to say that it kind of feels like the ground is just shifting underneath everyone's feet at the moment. It ends up resulting that you see pretty peculiar things coming out. People using all kinds of like new job titles to describe what they're looking for. People not really having a lot of clarity on like what does the ideal hire look like? I think that's one of the first things that comes to mind which is when we initially started talking to hiring managers and beginning at decimals it was very much about like hey talk to me about the ideal candidate you know give me the specifics talk to me about their profile and eventually I kind of came to the conclusion of like so much is changing and so much of what the hiring manager will tell you is different from what they're used to that they're kind of throwing out these oddball things of the like they must have exquisite taste and they must and you're just like okay cool that's that's great but I can't really use that for much and then you get into like okay cool let's let's get into the job titles and and even there you it can be somewhat helpful but it can also be something that leads you down the wrong path as well. So like I think the one that is mostly talked about is design engineer. And whenever I get a new company, new hiring manager telling me they want a design engineer, I'm just like okay, let's pause without using the word design engineer. Tell me what you're looking for. The thing that comes back is so different from hiring managers and hiring manager. The way I kind of simplified my mind is like do you want a designer that knows how to use Claude Code because there's plenty of those or you want somebody who trained as an engineer, has background as an engineer that can design for themselves. Those are two very different profiles, but the same nomenclature gets used to like identify them. I think if there's like any theme that I can point to, it's just that there's so much that is changing right now that it is actually when you talk from person to person, they might think that they're hiring the same role. They might be using the same name to describe the role that actually ends up being super super different. I think the the general theme that comes back is I want someone that is a tinkerer, you know, is using the latest tools, is reimagining what it means to be a designer. We had a founder from a company. I won't reveal his name, but everybody will will know who he is. Pretty well-known company. And he kind of said to me, "Hey, I'm looking to hire a designer that doesn't really identify with just being a designer anymore. You know, they're creating prototypes. They are doing their own PRs. They are kind of rethinking what it means to do their role in the current landscape. And I think that's the thing that the more I speak to even designers. I spoke to guy called Oscar Lozano who has just landed at at Lovable recently and the way he described it to me is I guess the way I think about it where where is he's kind of just said hey if I look at my at the job that I do now versus what I used to do 18 months ago it's completely different game completely changed. The rules are not the same anymore. And these like silos that we relied on for years of engineering product design these are the handoff points like all of that it's like ripped that off. That's That's not going to get useful.

先插播一条简短消息，然后我们继续。还记得 Jamie Ganon 来聊过用 AI 做创意总监吗？她参与了一个为 Claire Vo 的新公司做的精彩品牌项目。让我印象深刻的是，她如何用动效让整个揭幕过程栩栩如生。毫不意外，她用了 Jitter。一方面，它非常简单直观，即使你从未做过动效设计；另一方面，它又极其强大，你可以构建自己的创意工具来创建各种自定义动画和效果。多年来 Jitter 一直是我首选的动效工具，我强烈推荐。访问 dive.com/jitter 开始使用。我最喜欢的新兴工具之一叫 DESN，因为他们的新画布能为你提供整个产品在生产环境中的实时可视化地图。只需连接你的代码仓库，Destin 就会自动列出每个独特的屏幕和状态。这样你就能看到真正的源头，而不是过时的设计文件。然后你可以复制任何屏幕来并排探索想法，与团队分享，甚至可以通过 Destin 的 MCP 直接合并到生产环境。在我看来，这就是现代设计工作流的样子，你可以成为首批尝试的人之一。只需访问 dive.club.club/desen 与他们的联合创始人 Gab 预约聊天。别忘了告诉他们是我 Ridd 推荐的，这样你可以跳过排队。网址是 dive.comclub/desen dsn。现在，回到节目。

Real quick message and then we can jump back into it. Remember when Jamie Ganon came on to talk about being a creative director with AI? Well, she was part of an incredible branding project for Claire Vo's new company. And what stood out to me was how she brought the entire unveiling to life with motion. And to no one's surprised, she used Jitter. On one hand, it's so simple and intuitive, even if you've never done motion design before. On the other, it's incredibly powerful, and you can build your own creative tools to create all kinds of custom animations and effects. Jitter's been my go-to motion tool for years, and I cannot recommend it enough. Head to dive.com/jitter to get started. One of my favorite upandcoming tools is called DESN because their new canvas gives you a live visual map of your entire product in production. Just connect your repo and Destin lays out every unique screen and state automatically. That way you can see the real source of truth, not just a stale design file. And from there you can duplicate any screen to explore ideas side by side, share it with your team, and you can even merge to prod directly through Destin's MCP. In my opinion, this is what modern design workflows look like, and you can be one of the first to try it out. Just head to dive.club. club/desen to book a chat with their co-founder, Gab. And don't forget to tell them that Ridd sent you so you can jump the queue. That's dive.comclub/desen dsn. Now, on to the episode.

在这次通话之前我一直在想这个问题。我想，如果我要做一个作品集，明天试着找个工作，我该用什么标签？因为 Oscar 说的太有共鸣了。我的日常和 18 个月前相比简直是天壤之别。这是否意味着这就是设计师的新形态？我需要换一个不同的头衔吗？我真的不太确定该怎么处理。我觉得这正好触及了你说的设计工程师这个概念，我们经常看到。我很高兴你提到这个，因为我也在想，等等，那是什么意思？你指的是什么？对吧？因为有时候你读到它，会觉得，哦，这基本上就是产品设计师的职位描述。直说了，就是产品设计师，然后他们只是在玩 AI 工具。而有时候又像是，不，我们希望人们能真正进来改进我们前端代码的质量和架构。

I was thinking about this leading up to this call. I was like, if I was going to make a portfolio and try to get a role tomorrow, what label would I use? Because that Oscar code resonates so much. Like, my dayto-day is night and day than it was 18 months ago. Does that mean that this is just the new shape of designer? Do I need to reach for a different title? You know, and and I'm not really sure what to do with that. And I think it hits on this idea you're talking about with like the design engineer, which we see constantly. And I'm so glad you bring that up cuz I also I'm like, wait, what does that mean? What do you mean by that? Right? Because sometimes you'll read it and it's like, oh, this is basically a product designer job description. Straight up, it's a product designer. and then they're just playing with AI tools and then sometimes it's like no we want people to actually be able to come in and improve the quality and architecture of our front-end code.

我觉得这种情况要少见得多，但它确实存在，而且他们用的是同一个头衔，但在我看来，这完全是两种不同的人。

I think that's much more rare, but it totally exists, and they're using the same label, and that is a fundamentally different person in my mind.

然后出现了一个挺有意思的现象。我觉得这是和 Oscar 聊天时提到过的，当我们开始聊设计工程师这件事时，他有点翻白眼。他说：“设计工程师。”我说：“你为什么翻白眼？告诉我。”他说：“嗯，我就是觉得很多人自称设计工程师，但实际上他们并不是。”

And a pretty interesting thing plays out. I think this is something that came up in the chat with Oscar, where he kind of rolled his eyes when we started talking about the design engineer thing. He was like, "Design engineer." I was like, "What's causing the eye roll? Tell me." And it's like, "Well, I just feel like a lot of people call themselves that when in reality they're not."

我觉得这几乎可以漫画化了，对吧？我和联合创始人们有个习惯，就是会分享每一个新出现的职位头衔。这不仅仅是设计领域的事，对吧？你在招聘人员身上也能看到，他们用了 Claude Code，突然之间就成了人才工程师。好吧。这周有个人发了个帖子说：“哦，有个新职位，是帮公司从隐身模式启动的人，他们叫发布工程师。”你就想：“好吧，这什么时候是个头？”就好像“工程师”这个词已经没有任何意义了。Oscar 的反应就是这样：“嘿，如果你要把自己描述成设计工程师，那你最好真的是一个正经的设计师。”

And I think you can almost caricature it, right? I have this thing with the co-founders where we kind of share out every new job title that comes out. It's not just a design thing, right? You're seeing it in like recruiters who use Claude Code. All of a sudden, they're talent engineers. Okay. There's this post that came out this week from this guy being like, "Oh, there's this new job and it's somebody that helps launch a company out of stealth and they're called a launch engineer." And you're just like, "Okay, where is this gonna stop?" Like, you just—the word engineer means nothing anymore. And that was Oscar's reaction of just like, "Hey, if you're going to describe yourself as a design engineer, then you better be an actual legit designer."

那种——有意思的是他有这种观点，因为我实际上开始注意到，那些真正拥有全套技能、完全可以自夸、拥有最夸张头衔的人，他们只叫自己产品设计。你注意到了吗？比如 Matt S，他就只叫自己产品设计师。这家伙有 20 多年的经验。他是我认识的最厉害的人之一。他超级聪明。他拥有所有经验——产品设计。

That kind of—it's interesting that he has that view because what I've actually started spotting with the people that have all of the skill set to really be like bragging and like having the most inflated job title, they just call themselves product design. Have you noticed this? Like Matt S, he just calls himself a product designer. The guy has over 20 years of experience. He's like one of the most cracked people that I know. He's like super intelligent. Like he's got all the experience—product design.

而且他也在做开发。他能够触及工程领域的任何组合。

And he's building too. Like he can reach for any combination of engineering.

我甚至见过他只说设计师，甚至把产品也去掉了，我觉得那可能是我会落脚的地方。我想，我要么就用设计师，要么——别笑话我——但我确实认为有一个窗口，你可以——我都没法板着脸说这个——我觉得你可以说产品设计工程师，你知道，主动对抗一些人们在你自称设计工程师时给你贴的标签。就像：“不不不，我能做产品设计，但我也能开发。”我不知道。我觉得这也指出了整个领域和时代的滑稽之处。

I've even seen him say just designer too, and even drop product, which is—I feel like that's maybe where I would land. I'm like, I'm either going to reach for just designer or—don't make fun of me—but like I actually do think there's a window where you could—I can't even say this with a straight face—I think you could say product design engineer, you know, proactively combat some of the buckets that people put you in when you say design engineer. It's like, "No, no, no. I can do product design, but I can also build." I don't know. I think it points at the hilarity of this entire space and time, too.

我最近和一个人争论过，当时我——我谈到了产品设计工程师，他们说：“那不存在。那不是一回事。”我说：“为什么不是一回事？”他们说：“是啊，你知道，听到人们谈论所有这些角色合并，然后导致招聘经理认为他们只需要雇一个人，这很令人沮丧。他们不再需要雇所有这些不同的人了。”他说：“事实并非如此。”我觉得这是我可以从与招聘经理的所有对话中明确证实的事情。很多过去需要两到三个不同人担任的角色，现在人们只招一个人。无论这是对是错，它正在发生，对吧？而且这也不是新趋势。这不是新趋势。多年前人们就谈论过产品工程师。那只是一个做产品管理的工程师。现在我们有了设计工程师。所以我认为，既然我们在技术上有了这些工具可供使用——我不是说，你知道，只雇一个人——你可以预期这一个人比以前拥有更大的杠杆，因为他们可以使用所有这些工具，以前——我觉得这绝对是事实，即使我看自己日常的事情，过去需要几天的事情现在只需要几个小时，你知道，我认为这发生在每个人身上。

I got into a debate with someone recently where I was like—I talked about the product design engineer and they were like, "That doesn't exist. That's not a thing." And I was like, "Why is it not a thing?" And they were like, "Yeah, you know, it's just frustrating to hear when people talk about all these roles merging and then it leads to hiring managers thinking that they only need to hire one person. They don't need to hire all these people anymore." And he was like, "That's not what's happening." I think this is the thing that I can definitely vouch for from all the conversations that I have with hiring managers. A lot of the roles that used to be two to three different people, people are going for one. Whether that's right or whether that's wrong, it's happening, right? And it's also not a new trend. It's not a new trend. People since years ago have talked about the product engineer. This is just an engineer that does product management. Now we've got design engineer. And so I think it's like a natural thing to expect that now that we have these tools at our disposal technically—and I'm not saying that, you know, just hire the one person—you can expect the one person to have way more leverage than before just because they've got access to all these tools that before—I think that that is definitely something even when I look at my own day-to-day things that used to take me days now take me hours, and you know, I think that's happening to everyone.

而且你还能做以前做不到的事情。我们仍然有同样的所有可能技能组合的图表。我确实认为公司越来越感兴趣在更混乱的中间地带画圈，这些地带重叠了不同的轨道。我看到的另一个很多的是品牌工程师这个概念。其中一种类型是，你知道，我们希望你真的进来构建工具，但工具本身必须提升团队其他成员的品牌水平，并且能够生成资产或创建不同的视觉效果。所以，你必须是一个优秀的品牌设计师，因为你必须有品味才能把所有这些变成现实并设定质量标准。但产出是工具。我觉得这是我看到的一个有趣的组合。另一个是真正模糊了品牌设计师和网页设计师之间的界限。但如果你今天是网页设计师，你基本上被期望能够构建你的设计，因为每个人都能构建网站。你知道，也许真的是这个想法，我们好像在一切后面都加上工程师。说起来感觉很老土，但天哪，尤其是在初创公司和更高知名度的职位中，期望你在现有特长和技能组合之上作为一个构建者出现，这是非常真实的。在和 Oscar Lozano 交谈后，我思考的框架是——如果我向别人描述他是一个有系统思维的产品设计师，我想他会接受，而且我认为他会同意。

And you can do things that you otherwise wouldn't be able to too. We still have the same chart of all of the possible skill sets. I do think that companies are becoming much more interested in drawing circles in more messy middle grounds that kind of overlap different lanes. Another one that I'm seeing a lot is this idea of like a brand engineer. One strain of it is where it's like, you know, we want you to actually come in and build tools, but the tools themselves have to level up the rest of the team with brand and be able to like generate assets or create different visuals. So, you have to be a good brand designer because you have to have the taste to be able to bring all that stuff to life and set the bar for quality. But the output is tools. I think that's an interesting combination I'm seeing. Another one is really blurring the lines between what is a brand designer and what is a web designer. But like if you're a web designer today, you're basically expected to be able to build your designs because everybody can kind of build websites. You know, maybe it really is this idea that like we kind of are tacking on engineer at the end of everything. It just feels so corny to say, but gosh, the expectation, especially in startups and higher profile roles, that you would show up as a builder on top of your existing spikes and skill sets is pretty real. The framing that I've thought about after the conversation with Oscar Lozano—if I described him to someone else as a product designer who is a systems thinker, I think he would be cool with that and I think he would agree with that.

我觉得这也适用于你刚才描述的品牌工程师，他们在品牌方面很出色。他们可以是一个系统思考者，他们可以把工具交给别人自己操作，而不需要为了下一个活动创建资产来烦他们，你知道那是——我们可以进入另一个话题。

And I think that also applies to the brand engineer that you've just described, which is amazing with brand. They can be a systems thinker and they can hand off the tools for somebody else to like operate themselves and like not need to annoy them with creating the assets for the next event, which you know that's—it's a whole other topic we can get into.

但对我来说，这几乎就像是——我们把工程师换成了系统思考者，你知道。这并不朗朗上口，但我觉得这就是我的思考方式。

But that to me is almost like the thing—like we're swapping engineer for systems thinker, you know. It's not catchy, but I think that's kind of how I think about it.

我不觉得它读起来朗朗上口，但对招聘经理来说，这是一个令人向往的特质。如果你能把自己定位为一个能够思考和架构一些 AI 内部使用系统的人，我认为那是一个巨大的绿旗。

I don't think it reads catchy, but it is a desirable trait for hiring managers. And if you can position yourself as somebody who is able to think through and architect some of these systems for how AI is used internally, I think that's a massive green flag.

我想把这作为一个过渡点，因为这一集我的很多目标是把你当作一个窗口，了解当今就业市场正在发生什么，因为你有一个如此迷人的视角。你拥有的另一个小视角是招聘经理展示的所有绿旗和红旗。他们试图描述他们想带进团队的候选人类型。

Which I want to use as a bit of a transition point, because a lot of this episode my goal is to use you as a window into what is happening in today's job market, because you have such a fascinating vantage point. And another one of those little perspectives that you have available to you is this idea of all of the green and red flags that hiring managers are presenting. They're trying to describe what type of candidate they want to bring onto the team.

我想知道，在这些绿旗和红旗中，有没有哪些见解是你觉得对今天的设计师有帮助的。

And I'm wondering if there are any insights within those green and red flags that you think would be helpful for designers to realize today.

你一说人们几乎对大公司标志过敏，我首先想到的就是这个。我这么说是因为我认为以前有一个世界，在那里，有 FANG 背景的分量要重得多。我不是说它现在完全不重要了，因为能面试得好仍然是一个信号，但我觉得这是我最常听到的反馈。当你深入探究时，因为我通常会问，为什么？这是我最喜欢深入探究的事情。好吧，你不想要有 FANG 背景的人？我认为人们的偏见倾向于，嘿，如果他们在 FANG 待了 5 到 10 年，那他们真的处于前沿吗？他们真的在推动吗？他们真的在捣鼓吗？如果我想另一个极端，那就是终极捣鼓者，那些玩弄这些工具的人。这里想到的人是 innies，像 Jason Marsher 那样的人，他们不断尝试新东西，给你发来奇怪的原型，让你不禁感叹，‘啊，我甚至不知道那可能。’所以我说这些是两个极端，一个是红旗，即某人太迷恋自己在旧世界中自认为的设计师身份。这可能会引发各种事情。你会有这种感觉，好吧，如果你把身份绑定在旧世界的设计师上，那么你就不太希望别人给你带来 vibecoded 原型，例如。这也是 Oscar 向我提到的。他说，你知道，现在在 Lovable 工作的一个有趣见解是，我们设计频道的大多数帖子来自非设计师。他说这话时相当积极，因为我认为他有惊人的成长心态。但我认为很多人看到这个会想，那太可怕了。我不想要非设计师给出 vibecoded 设计。

The first thing that comes to mind when you say that people are almost allergic to the big company logos. And I say that because I think there was a world before where being ex-FANG had a lot more weight to it. I'm not saying it's not important at all anymore because it's still some signal that you can interview well, but I think that is the thing that I hear back most commonly. When you dig into it, because I usually ask, so why? It's like my favorite thing to just dig into. Okay, so you don't want ex-FANG? And I think people's biases go towards, hey, if they've been at FANG for like 5-10 years, then have they really been at the forefront? Have they really been pushing? Have they really been tinkering? If I think about the other extreme of that, it's like the ultimate tinkerer, the person who's playing with these tools. And the people that come to mind here are the innies, the Jason Marshers of the world that are like continually playing it out with things and sending you funky prototypes where you're just like, 'Ah, I didn't even know that was possible.' And so I'd say those are like the two ends of the extreme, which is like red flag, somebody who is too enamored to their identity of what they believe to be a designer in this old world. And that can bring up all kinds of things. There can be this feeling of, okay, if you have tied your identity to being a designer in the old world, then you don't really want people bringing you vibecoded prototypes, for example. That's something that Oscar mentioned to me as well. He's like, you know, one of the interesting insights about working at Lovable now is that the majority of posts in our design channel come from people who are not designers. And he said it in a pretty positive way because I think he's got an amazing growth mindset. But I think there's a lot of people that would look at that and be like, that's a nightmare. I don't want a non-designer giving vibecoded designs.

这几乎有点不舒服，因为你不想要一群有丰富 FANG 背景的人，他们到目前为止拥有简历的巅峰，你知道吗？但天哪，我也有点这种感觉，如果我分享一个可能在 LinkedIn 或微软之类的地方工作了 5 年的人，招聘经理几乎会有这种犹豫，他们想看到别的东西。你几乎必须通过展示你在过去一两年自己做了什么来克服这一点。我希望我能主动获得许可分享这个人的作品集。我会保持匿名，但他在微软待了很长时间。我们说的是 9 年。在微软内部爬梯子，担任非常高调的角色。我第一次分享他的作品集时，人们甚至不想聊天。他们不感兴趣。我不相信你能从那种环境中跟上时代。但事实证明，这家伙在捣鼓、构建、做各种小实验。他听这个节目。我们在 Twitter 上私信聊天。他给我看他做的东西。他重新设计了他的作品集。我不确定具体什么时候，但我最近检查了一下，看了看。我心想，‘哦，我的天，这太棒了。这是一个完整的网格，展示了他制作的各种东西。它真的制作精良。所有视觉细节都调整到位。而他在微软是一位超级经验丰富的设计师，这几乎是潜台词。他根本不以此开头。他以过去 18 个月作为构建者的经历开头。我开始再次分享他的个人资料。天壤之别。突然间，每个人都想和这个人交谈。而这一切只是一个重新定位的练习。我认为这就像整个就业市场的一个缩影。

It almost is uncomfortable to talk about a little bit because you don't want to a bunch of people with rich FANG backgrounds who up until this point have had the pinnacle of what a resume could look like, you know? But man, I'm kind of feeling that too where if I share someone out who maybe they've spent the last 5 years working at even like a LinkedIn or you know, maybe it is like a Microsoft or something like that. There almost is this hesitation from hiring managers where it's like they want to see something else. You almost have to overcome that fact by demonstrating what you have been up to on your own in the last year or two. I wish I would have received permission proactively to share this guy's portfolio. I'll keep him unnamed, but he's been at Microsoft for a long time. We're talking like 9 years. Really high-profile roles kind of climbing the ladder inside of Microsoft. The first few times that I shared his portfolio, people didn't even want to chat. They weren't interested. I don't believe that that you can be with the Times coming from that environment. But it turns out the dude was like he was tinkering and building and doing all kinds of little experiments. He listens to the show. We talk in DMs on Twitter. He shows me stuff that he's made. And he redesigned his portfolio. I'm not actually sure when, but I checked it out recently and I looked at it. I'm like, 'Oh my gosh, this is awesome. It's just a full grid of all these different types of things that he's making. It's really well-crafted. All the visual details are dialed in. And the fact that he's been a super experienced designer at Microsoft is almost like subtext. It's not the thing he leads with at all. He leads with what he has been up to in the last 18 months as a builder. And I started sharing his profile again. Night and day. All of a sudden, everybody wants to talk to this guy. And all it was was a repositioning exercise. And I think that's like a microcosm of the entire job market right now.

我认为正在发生的是，在旧世界中，更注重资历和简历。我不是说这些东西完全消失了或完全无关紧要，但它的权重远低于以往。我认为，作为非设计师来说，设计师可能比其他人领先几十年，因为设计师早就习惯有作品集，这对非设计师来说完全是新事物。但现在，如果你申请工作，如果你是冷申请，你最好有东西来证明。你最好有一些写作或你做过的事情，展示而不是讲述，因为现在，你甚至不需要那么 AI 就能让你的简历看起来相当不错。

I think kind of what's happening is that in this old world, it was more about the credentials and the resume. And I'm not saying that stuff has completely gone away or it doesn't matter at all, but the weighting of it is way below where it ever has been. I think, you know, speaking as a non-designer, I think designers are probably decades ahead of everyone else because designers are used to having a portfolio from ages ago and that is completely new to anyone who isn't a designer. But right now, if you're applying for a job, if you're doing it cold, you better have something to prove. You better have some writing out there or something that you've done that shows rather than tells because right now, you know, you don't even have to be that AI pill to get your resume looking pretty decent.

好的，我们为这一集做准备时做的一件事是从在人才网络中获得成功并最终找到工作的人那里提取了几个作品集。我想用你刚才说的话作为切入点，因为有一个设计师，我认为他是你不再需要资历的完美例子。实际上，那不是最重要的东西。他的名字是 Preston Booth。我看这个作品集，马上就觉得，很有趣，对吧？它非常独特。他创造了自己的办公室。有一些有趣的小悬停状态。你点击进入他的作品，你会意识到，好吧，他基本上是 Bamboo HR 的中期设计师，这不是对 Bamboo HR 可爱的人们的贬低，但它是一家位于犹他州的中端市场 HR 软件公司。它不一定有最吸引人的设计语言。如果只是把一堆 Bamboo HR 的截图放在主页上，并不完全能让设计师获得高调的角色，对吧？Preston 不在乎。他为他的作品集构建了整个宇宙。他在里面内置了 command K。他就像，看这里这个小悬停状态，有闪光效果，他大肆展示自己的探索和他在 Bamboo HR 内构建的东西。如果我回到这里，他在做像构建 Rive 动画这样的小事，你可以看出，哦，他只是一个捣鼓者，对吧？他在网站上做得超乎寻常。我认为他制作这个视频的事实真的很突出。它非常新鲜。我还没见过有人强调关于自己的视频。再次，就像每一个小细节都调整到位。他构建了小游戏，所有这些小开关，马上你就可以看过去，你知道，你可以看过去他的经验。这个作品集在网络中引起了如此大的共鸣。

Okay, so one of the things that we did preparing for this episode was pull a couple portfolios from people that have had success in the talent network and ultimately landed a job. And I think I want to use what you just said as a kickoff point for that because there's this designer that I think is the perfect example of how you don't need credentials anymore. Like and that's not actually the thing that is being weighted first and foremost. And his name is Preston Booth. I look at this portfolio and right away, you know, it's interesting, right? Like it's very unique. He's kind of created his office. They're fun little hover states. You click into his work and you realize, okay, he's basically been like a mid-career designer at Bamboo HR, which nothing against the lovely people at Bamboo HR, but it's like middle-market HR software based off of Utah. It doesn't necessarily have the most inviting design language. It's not exactly setting up a designer for a high-profile role if they would just plop a bunch of Bamboo HR screenshots on their homepage, right? Preston didn't care. He built this entire universe for his portfolio. He built command K into it. He like he's look at this little hover state here and you have the shimmer and he's making a big deal out of his own like explorations and the things he's building even within the Bamboo HR. If I go back to this here, he's doing little things like building Rive animations and you could just tell like oh he's just a tinkerer, right? and he went above and beyond on his website. I think the fact that he made this video really stood out. It was super fresh. I hadn't really seen somebody take emphasis on a video about themselves. And again, it's just like every little detail is so dialed in. He's built little games, all these little toggles, and right away you can look past, you know, like you can look past his experience. And this portfolio resonated in the network so much.

大家都关注这个，现在他在 Clerk 做很棒的高级项目设计职位。我喜欢聊 Preston，因为他是完美的例子：你的出身根本不重要，至少比就业市场历史上任何时期都更不重要，因为你可以证明过去 12 到 18 个月你一直在打磨，这就是现在最重要的信号。这个例子我还喜欢的一点是，经常有设计师告诉我：“嘿，我不在最酷的公司工作。我的公司不在这些 AI 工具的前沿，我日常也没机会做 AI 相关的事。我能做什么？”因为那是我要展示的作品集。我觉得这就是该指给他们的例子：你的公司不需要处在前沿。你只需要在业余时间玩，捣鼓、拼凑东西，不需要和你的日常工作相关，但需要向潜在雇主展示：“啊，好吧，这个人懂。”如果你看他作品集里的东西，对比你 18 到 24 个月前对标准设计师的预期，完全是两个世界，对吧？

Like people were all over this and now he works in this awesome senior project design role at Clerk. I love talking about Preston because it's the perfect example of man it just doesn't matter what your pedigree is at least way less than at any other point in the job market's history because you can prove that you've been cooking over the last you know 12 to 18 months and that's the number one signal right now. What I love about this example as well is that I've commonly had designers tell me like, "Hey, I don't work for the coolest company. My company isn't at like the forefront of, you know, these AI tools and I don't really get to be AI peeled in my day-to-day. What can I do?" Cuz that's the that's what I have to show my portfolio. I think this is the exact like example to point them to, which is like your your company doesn't need to be at the forefront. You just need to be playing in your spare time like tinkering, putting things together that it doesn't need to be related to your day job, but it needs to show to potential employers of like, ah, okay, this person gets it. If you look at what he's done with the portfolio there versus what you might have expected from a a standard designer like 18 24 months ago, it's completely different world, right?

没错。所以对我来说，这是一个很好的例子：这个人有主动性，没有只是说“哦，我不在 necessarily 最酷或处于前沿的公司工作，但我仍然可以在作品集里展示一些酷东西。”所以我觉得这是一个值得效仿的例子。

Exactly. And so I think that for me is like a really good example of someone that had the agency and didn't just say, "Oh, you know, I don't work for a company that's necessarily the coolest or know uh is at the forefront of this stuff, but I can still show some cool stuff in my portfolio." So I think it's an example to follow.

我也想看看他怎么称呼自己。他说产品设计师和构建者。这个组合优雅吗？也许不。但确实有效。确实有效。你呢，Danny？你想从网络里展示什么，能说明今天哪些类型的作品集能引起招聘经理的共鸣？

I wanted to see what he called himself too. He says product designer and builder. So the little combination is it is it elegant? Maybe not. But it does work. It does work. What about you, Danny? What what are uh what's something that you want to showcase from the network that you think shines a light on the types of portfolios that are resonating with hiring managers today?

第一个例子是 Claire Taylor。我喜欢 CLA 的一点是，有很多设计师对她有那种——我不知道这个词是否合适——像是工作上的迷恋。每次我告诉别人我要采访 CLA 或者我认识 Cla，他们都会说“Cla Taylor”，而且你和她说话根本看不出来。她是最谦逊的人。但大家都懂。她是个大人物。他们知道她。然后你打开作品集，你会想：“哦，但这太简单优雅了。”只有当你开始层层深入，你才会说：“哦等等，这是什么？”然后你开始注意到小细节。我觉得这几乎是我从真正厉害的设计师身上注意到的一点：他们不必在作品集上堆砌所有花哨的东西。就是小东西。是悬停状态。是细节，对吧？还有页脚的小东西，很精致。然后酷的是，当你双击进入她做过的产品，她会带你浏览屏幕。Nikita 离开 X 时发了一整篇帖子，有点像视频，展示了“这是我发布的东西”，有点像真实视角。她做到了类似的效果，不是抄袭，但达到了同样的目的，对吧？当你悬停在这里，你可以点击进入这些东西，她又在展示给你看，对吧？我觉得审查作品集时总让我有点紧张的是，当我们进入那种大案例研究，到处都是文字，而她没有这样做，就是非常漂亮和令人愉悦。你有这个小小的悬停状态，我就是喜欢这种分享作品的方式。她的作品集我还很喜欢的一点，我认为实际上会变得越来越普遍。我看到越来越多的设计师这样做，就是把她写的东西放进去。她有一个 Substack，她经常谈论她学到的东西，她谈论的方式也很鼓舞人心。她说，我只想分享我学到的东西并记录下来，不仅为了别人，也为了我自己。写作就是思考，对吧？就是 Paul Gra 那套。我认为这会越来越普遍。对我来说，这是一个很大的绿色信号。如果你能把你的思考写成文字，我能读完而不觉得是 Claude 写的，那就是绿色信号。而且

The first example is Claire Taylor. What I love about CLA is there are so many designers that have like a I don't know whether this is the right word to use, but like a work crush on CLA. Every time I've told someone that I was going to interview CLA or that I know Cla, they're like CCla Taylor and like it's it's and you wouldn't know her from speaking to her. She's the most humble person ever. But people get it. She's a big deal. They know about her. And then you open the portfolio and you're like, "Oh, but this is so simple and elegant." And it's like, it's only when you start layering it, you're like, "Oh, wait. What's this?" And you start noticing the little details. And I think it's it's almost like a thing that I've noticed from really amazing designers, which is that they don't have to put all the bells and whistles on the portfolio. It's just the little things. It's the hover states. It's like it's the details, right? and you know the little thing with the like uh footer like it's nice and then the cool thing is when you double click into the products that she's worked on um she will take you through the screens when Nikita left X he had this whole post where he was it was kind of like a video and it showed all of the like okay here's here's what I shipped and it it was kind of like a real type view and she's managed to do that in in a way that doesn't copy it but it kind of achieves the same thing, right? Which is when you hover over here and you can like click into these things and again she's showing you, right? I think the thing that always makes me a little bit nervous when reviewing portfolios is when we get into the whole big case study and there's text everywhere and and she hasn't done that and it's just like really nice and delightful. You've got this little hover state and it's just there's there's there's something that I just love about this way of like sharing your work. The other thing that I really like about her portfolio and I think it's actually I think it's going to become more common. I'm seeing more and more designers do it, which is just putting her writing into pros. And she's got a Substack and she talks a lot about what she learns and she the way she talks about this is also really inspiring. She's like, I just want to share what I learn and document it, not only for other people, but also for myself. Like writing is thinking, right? It's the whole like Paul Gra thing. And I think this is going to become more and more common. For me, it's such a green flag. If you can put your thinking into writing and I can get through it and not think that it was written by Claude, that is green flag. And

是的，那是

yeah, that's the

我觉得。没错。没错。

I think. Exactly. Exactly.

如果你粘贴一堆垃圾，那就是反信号。如果你展示有思想的所学，那就是绿色信号。

If you're pasting a bunch of slop, it is an anti- signal. If you show thoughtful learnings, then it is a green flag.

她做到了。再说一次，如果我从招聘经理的角度思考，我刚读了她几篇文章，我觉得我能很好地了解她的思维如何运作、里面有什么、她怎么想。我不会长篇大论，但我认为作为招聘经理，你能做的最有价值的事就是了解一个人如何思考。我觉得这也在和她的对话中出现过，她说有些公司给她发任务，说“这是简报，现在把成品发给我，我们就完了”，她主动告诉我她拒绝那些公司。当我深入问为什么，她说，对他们来说只看最终成品没意思，我不是机器，他们应该追问、提问，我们应该辩论和讨论。她这样表述也是：这也是我面试他们的机会，看看他们如何思考问题、如何合作、如何处理分歧。

And she's done this. And again, I I think if I'm if I'm thinking about this from the perspective of a hiring manager, and I just read a couple of her posts, I think I get a pretty good insight into how her mind works, into what's in there and how she thinks. Won't get into a huge rant about it, but that I think is the most valuable thing that you can do as a hiring manager is understand how someone thinks. I think and this this came up in a conversation with her as well where she says you know there's some companies which they send me an assignment and they say hey here's the brief now send me the artifact and we'll be done and she's actively told me I say no to those companies and when I kind of dug into why she was like well it's it's not interesting for them to just see the final artifact I'm not a machine they should be proddding and like asking questions and we should be debating and discussing the way she frames it as well it's like it's also opportunity for me to interview them to see how they think through problems to think how they work together, how they deal with disagreements,

我想先记下“面试他们”这一点，因为我觉得我们想谈谈给招聘经理的一些建议。我觉得这是一个很好的小过渡，我现在先跳过，因为我想再展示几个作品集。关于 Claire 的，我想分享一个很小的细节：实际上有一位招聘经理加入网络，特别引用了 Claire 的网站作为他们寻找的工艺标准的例子。让他们印象深刻的整个东西就是这一个交互：你悬停在这里，光标变化，然后左边内容有个小预览。这真的很新颖。我实际上不认为我在作品集上见过这个，Claire，它说明了一个好的、有创意且执行到位的交互现在能走多远。所以她想到了这种独特的方式在两个状态之间过渡，并全力以赴完善它。

which I want to put a pin in the interviewing them because I think that we want to talk a little bit about some advice for hiring managers. I think that's like a really nice little segue that I'm going to pass on right now because I want to show a couple more portfolios. One like tiny detail about Claire's even that I want to share is we actually had a hiring manager come into the network and they specifically cited Claire's website as an example of the craft bar that they're looking for. And the entire thing that stood out to them was this one interaction where you hover here, the cursor changes and then it has the little peak to the content on the left. This is really novel. I actually don't think that I've seen this on a portfolio before Claire and it speaks to the power of one good creative wellexecuted interaction can go so far right now. And so she thought of this unique way of transitioning between these two states and just went all in on perfecting it.

而且它突出到如今真的被引用为招聘经理所寻找的范例。所以再给 Claire 加一分。我想谈的另一个人是 Matt Silva。Matt 是那种设计师兼构建者、奇怪的中间地带角色的完美例子，现在很多招聘经理都趋之若鹜。我觉得我们可以从他的定位中学到一些东西，因为他确实有更多的工程背景，但他完全不用头衔。我真的很喜欢这个标题，他说：“我打造设计与工程相遇的产品。” 很简单，但你用了很多招聘经理在寻找的热门词，对吧？他们想要更技术型的人。他们想要高工艺的人。而你直接把它写进一句话里，很有效。

And it stood out to the point where it actually is getting cited right now as an example of what hiring managers are looking for. So another big plus one for Claire. The other person that I want to talk about is Matt Silva. Matt's a perfect example of the type of designer-builder, weird middle-ground role that a lot of hiring managers are just all over right now. I think there are some things we can learn from his positioning because he does have a little bit more of an engineering background, but he doesn't use titles at all. I really like this heading where he says, 'I craft products where design and engineering meet.' It's so simple, but you're using a lot of buzzwords that hiring managers are looking for, right? They want people that are more technical. They want people with high craft. And you just literally wrote that in a sentence and it's effective.

然后，这又是一个良好互动的力量，对吧？他思考展示方式的方式真的很有趣。它是一张卡片，然后展开。再次，正如你所说，他展示了这些——你在思考这个。这就是你处理事情的方式。你可以看出他更技术一些。你看到 React 设计系统、Tailwind CSS，一些会突出的关键词。然后他还没有进入典型的陈词滥调的作品集项目。他直接把你扔进 UI 里。不仅是输出本身，甚至进出这些产物的方式都如此周到，对吧？你可以看出他在细节上下了功夫。现在他进入副项目。仍然没有展示典型的简历。我甚至不太清楚——只是一堆他在构建的东西，而且制作精良。

And then again, it's the power of one good interaction, right? The way that he thought about the presentation is really fascinating here. It's a card and then it expands. Again, to your point, he shows these are—you're thinking about this. This is how you're processing stuff. You can tell that he's a little bit more technical. You see React design systems, Tailwind CSS, some keywords that would stand out. And then he still hasn't gotten into typical cliché portfolio projects. He dumps you right into UIs. Not only the output itself, but even the way that it goes in and out of the artifacts is so thoughtful, right? You could tell he sweat the details on that. And now he's going into side projects. Still not showing a typical resume. I don't even really know—it's just a bunch of things that he's building and it's really well-crafted.

你知道，如果你有不错的背景，当然可以——我不是说不要把你的简历放在任何地方，或者不要放你工作过的地方。我觉得那真的很有帮助。但他的简历上并没有真正高知名度的公司，但他有技能。所以他专注于：他在做什么、他在实验什么、他在思考什么、他在写什么。他围绕这些建立了一个作品集，现在他是 Polymarket 的设计工程师。我认为这也是很多人可以遵循的剧本。

You know, if you have a nice background, by all means—I'm not saying don't put your resume anywhere or don't put where you've worked. I think it's really helpful. But he didn't have really high-profile companies on his resume, and yet he had the skills. So he leaned into: what is he making, what is he experimenting, what is he thinking about, what is he writing about. And he built a portfolio around that, and now he's a design engineer at Polymarket. I think that's a playbook that a lot of people can follow too.

我觉得这个作品集还有几点让我印象深刻。再次，我对文字高手和能够轻松沟通的人没有抵抗力，这里有三个句子。是的。好吧。其中一些可能——他可能在试图命中关键词，但它非常简单地传达了他做什么，对吧？我认为这几乎就像网站的 H1 非常重要。作品集的 H1 非常重要。它是一到两句话，说明你是谁以及你是为了什么，对吧？我认为他在用词上非常刻意。再次，这是更精英的设计师都在真正关注的事情——他们在 H1 中使用的非常具体的词语。我认为这是让我印象深刻的一点。

I think there are also a couple of things that stand out to me about this portfolio. Again, I'm a sucker for a wordsmith and somebody who's able to communicate things in an easy way, and these are three lines there. Yes. Okay. Some of them might—he might be trying to hit keywords, but it just communicates very simply what he does, right? And I think it's almost like the H1 of a website matters so much. The H1 of a portfolio matters so much. It's the one to two sentences that say who you are and what you're for, right? I think he's been very deliberate about the words that he's put in here. And again, this is something that the more elite designers are all really focusing on—the very specific words that they're using in their H1. I think that's one of the things that stands out to me.

我和他聊过，他向我展示了他构思这个作品集的过程。从 Figma 开始，以及他用来获取灵感的东西。一旦你看到它，你就无法忽视它。他带我去看这个——我想是一个德国品牌，做机械相机之类的。他们给你的感觉非常精确，几乎感觉像在转动一个旋钮。那是他真正喜欢的感觉。他说：“我做出的网站——显然我不是在卖机械相机，但那就是我想要追求的感觉。” 当你在这里摆弄时，你感受到的正是这样。感觉像是在切换。确实。我不知道。几乎有一种模拟的感觉。

I had a chat with him and he showed me his process for coming up with this portfolio. It started in Figma and the things that he was using for inspiration. And it's like once you see it, you can't unsee it. He took me to this—I think it's this German brand that does mechanical cameras, something like that. And the vibe that they give you, it's just very precise and it almost feels like you're turning a dial almost. And that is the feeling that he really liked. And he was like, 'The website that I come up with—obviously I'm not selling mechanical cameras, but that's the feeling that I want to go for.' And that's exactly what you feel when you're tinkering here. It kind of feels like you're switching. It does. I don't know. There's just something that feels like analog about it almost.

是的。这也是到达独特之处的唯一途径之一。你几乎必须从 Dribbble 或其他作品集之外汲取灵感。所以那实际上——我不知道。这解释了为什么那是他的起点。你还有另一个想分享的吗？

Yeah. It's one of the only ways to get somewhere unique, too. You almost have to pull inspiration outside of Dribbble or a bunch of other portfolios. And so that's actually—I didn't know that. It makes sense why that was his starting point. Do you have another one that you want to share?

对于一个非设计师？一个无法告诉你为什么这个作品集的具体细节让我有某种感觉的人，但就像她在这里玩弄了所有感官。是灯光。你按下回车进入工作室，我不知道你在这里能不能听到，但有一个东西你可以播放音乐，我要把它关掉，因为会分散注意力，但当你沉浸其中时，就像啊酷，我几乎感觉自己在会员俱乐部里，她也玩弄灯光，然后你可以得到——我的意思是这是我最喜欢的咖啡店。它正好有这种灯光。你做了这些小事情，对吧？她太有创意了，再次，惊喜惊喜，你导航到她的关于页面进入她的图书馆，她放下了很多她的想法。她做了很多演讲。她有律师背景。我想你们在 Dive Radio 上报道过她，但你只是了解她的为什么，关于她的背景。你发现她受过律师训练。这些小事情对我来说非常独特。我不认为我打开过哪个作品集，让我觉得，好吧，这因为音乐、因为灯光而让我因为不同原因感受到不同东西。几乎就像我进入一个会员俱乐部，它被非常刻意地设计来让你有特定的感觉。然后几乎就像我想拿杯咖啡，读完所有文章。

For a non-designer? Somebody who isn't able to tell you why the specifics of this portfolio make me feel a certain way, but it's just like she's played with all of the senses here. It's the lighting. You press enter the atelier and I don't know whether you can hear it on here but there's a thing where you can play music and I'm gonna turn that off because it's gonna be distracting but when you're immersed in it it's like ah cool I almost feel like I'm in a members club now and she plays with the lighting as well and then you can get like I mean this is my favorite coffee shop. It has exactly this lighting. You've done the little things, right? And she's just so creative and again, surprise surprise, you navigate to her about pages into her library and she puts down a lot of her thoughts. She does a lot of talks. She's a lawyer by background. I think you guys have covered her in Dive Radio, but you just learn about her why, about her background. You figure out that she's a lawyer by training. It's the little things that feel quite distinctive to me. I don't think there's a portfolio that I've opened where it's been like, okay, this makes me feel different things for different reasons because of the music, because of the lighting. It's almost like I'm entering a members club that's been very deliberately designed to make you feel a specific way. And then it's almost like I want to get a cup of coffee and read through all the articles.

和 Preston 的放在一起看也很酷。他们俩都建立了一个小宇宙，当你打开他们的网站时，你踏入其中，你能感受到。它感觉和普通作品集不同。你必须记住，招聘经理在一小时内点击 50 个链接，而你是那 50 个链接之一。我向你保证，Annie 和 Preston 的作品集让那些招聘经理感觉不同。

It's cool to see juxtaposed with Preston's, too. Both of them built a little universe that you step into when you open up their website and you feel it. It just feels different than a normal portfolio. You have to remember that hiring managers are clicking through 50 links in an hour and you're one of those 50 links. And I promise you Annie and Preston's portfolio made those hiring managers feel different.

是的。是的，我觉得这也让我想起一个我听说过的观点——我读过很多关于这个的争论，比如你应该把 Figma 链接作为作品集吗？你应该把幻灯片作为作品集吗？你应该把 Dribbble 链接作为作品集吗？我的看法是，我不认为这必然排除你是一个好设计师，但我认为——我坚持这一点——你只有一次机会创造第一印象。你没有第二次机会创造第一印象。

Yeah. Yeah, I think this also reminds me of a point where I've heard—there's quite a lot of debate that I've read about on like should you have a Figma link as a portfolio? Should you have slides as a portfolio? Should you have a Dribbble link as a portfolio? My take on it is I don't think it necessarily rules you out as a good designer, but I think—and I stick to this—you have one chance to create a first impression. You don't get a second chance to create a first impression.

如果你是 50 个人中的一个，别人快速滚动浏览，第一眼看到的是 Figma 链接或 Dribbble，即使作品很棒，你也已经不得不克服它造成的初始印象。你说得对。你打开这些作品集，就像进入他们的世界，感觉是，好吧，酷，我现在进入你的世界了。让我们读读她脑子里想的所有东西，她学到的所有东西。这太有趣了。还有那些小彩蛋。我可能记不清了，但她在上面有很多彩蛋，比如……

And if you're one of 50 and somebody's scrolling through quickly and the first thing that they get is a Figma link or a Dribbble, even if it's amazing work, you're already having to overcome that initial impression that it's created. And yeah, you're right. You open up these portfolios and it's like you enter their world and it's like, okay, cool. I'm in your world now. Let's go and read about all of the things that are in her mind, all the things that she's learned. And it's so much fun. And all the little Easter eggs as well. I probably can't remember, but she's got a lot of Easter eggs on like...

对，就是那些小细节，对吧？看这个。就像它是关于……就像……

Yeah, just the little details, right? Look at this. Like it was about it's like...

是的，这让我想起 Lovable 的 Nad 大概去年我采访他时说过的话，我们当时做了一次招聘深度探讨。他说他就是想看到人们在意的样子。看着 In 书架上书的移动方式，我想起了那句话。就像，哦对，她真的考虑过这个，她在意。她没有直接用 AI 开箱即用的东西。她真的在细节上下了功夫。我觉得这是你可以把我们分享的那四个作品集串起来的一条线。

Yeah, it reminds me of something that Nad from Lovable talked about when I interviewed him probably like last year and we just did a hiring deep dive. He talked about how he just wants to see that people care, you know, and I remembered that line looking at the way that the books moved on In's bookshelf. It's like, oh yeah, she like really thought about that, you know, she cared. She didn't just use whatever AI just gave her out of the box. Like she really swept the details there. And I think that's a strand that you can tie in between those four portfolios that we shared.

也许在继续之前，作为见过很多作品集、见过很多设计师和招聘经理互动的人，有没有什么我们没聊到的？就作品集本身而言，你从最成功的设计师身上还注意到其他趋势吗？

Maybe even before moving on, like is there anything else that we didn't talk about as somebody who you know, you see a lot of portfolios, you see a lot of interactions between designers and hiring managers. When it comes to the actual portfolio itself, any other trends that you're noticing from the designers that are having the most success?

最近从圈子里冒出来的一个，我觉得看看这个会怎么发展会很有意思。我完全不知道。前几天有个招聘经理说：“嘿，我以前见过这个作品集的版本。”他们的意思是，他们觉得这像是 vibe coding 出来的，感觉很模板化。因为他们审过太多作品集了，所以觉得“这个我见过”。对他们来说，缺乏原创性意味着，哦，他们只是没怎么思考地 vibe coding 了一下。我觉得这几乎指向了事情可能最终会怎么发展，就像你几乎想做的就是展示……Sid 在我们聊天时跟我提过这个。他说，这几乎就像我想给你看人类的证明，对吧？我需要把某个东西摆在你面前，让你不觉得它是 AI 设计的，不觉得它是 AI 创作的。唯一的方法就是相当原始地把我的思考——带着我的经历——放到纸上，给你看，比如我的博客之类的。但我觉得这就是主题……如果你觉得你的作品集可以被一次性生成，或者它看起来和别人的作品集很像，那会让招聘经理望而却步。嗯，这几乎又回到了整个 Dribbble 和 thickness lights 的讨论，因为它太标准化了，以至于……

One of the ones that's come up pretty recently actually from the network and I think it's going to be very interesting to see how this one plays out. I have no clue. We had a hiring manager the other day say, "Hey, I have seen versions of this portfolio before." And what they meant by that is that they felt that it was like vibe coded and that it felt quite boilerplate. And because they'd reviewed so many portfolios, they were like, "I've seen this one before." That to them, the lack of originality meant to them that, oh, they just vibe coded it thoughtlessly. And I think this almost goes to like how things might end up playing out where it's like almost the thing that you want to do is to show... Sid mentioned this to me when we had a chat. He's like it's almost like I want to show you the proof of human, right? I need to put something in front of your face that you don't think was designed by an AI that you don't think was created by an AI. And the only way to do that is to be quite raw to put my thinking, uh, which has my experiences onto paper and like show you like I guess my blog and all these things. But I think that is the theme of the... like if you feel like your portfolio can be one-shotted or that it looks very familiar to someone else's portfolio that's going to put hiring managers off. Um, and it almost ties back to like the whole Dribbble and like thickness lights conversation cuz it's so standardized that...

人们几乎会觉得你没怎么用心。你只是拿了个模板填了填。

People almost feel like you haven't really put much effort into this. You've just taken a template and filled it in.

有一个问题我忍不住一直问自己。如果公司申请和你谈话，而不是反过来，会怎样？这个问题是全新 Dive Talent Network 的基础。而且它正在奏效。比如现在，我正在帮助我认识的许多最令人兴奋的初创公司，招聘收听这档节目的设计师和构建者。所以，如果你好奇外面可能有什么，也许你想进入我的名单，或者你甚至正在寻找下一位设计人才，请访问 dive.club/talent 今天就加入。

There's one question that I can't stop asking myself. What if companies applied to talk to you rather than the other way around? And that question is the foundation for the all-new Dive Talent Network. And it's working. Like right now, I'm helping many of the most exciting startups that I know to hire the designers and builders who listen to this show. So, if you're curious what might be out there and maybe you want to get on my list, or maybe you're even looking for your next design hire, head to dive.club/talent to join today.

好，我们跟招聘经理说几句。假设你确实想吸引这些更抢手的候选人之一。你认识到招聘市场正集中在这种正在成形的中间地带人设上，你想把某个在意的人招进你的团队，对吧？那么，从高层来看，你认为公司和招聘经理必须做出哪些转变，才能拿下这样的候选人？

All right, let's talk to hiring managers for a second. Let's say that you do want to attract one of these more sought-after candidates. You recognize the concentration in the hiring market towards this kind of middle ground persona that's taking shape and you want to bring somebody on your team that cares, right? So, at a high level, what are the shifts that you think companies and hiring managers have to make in order to land one of these candidates?

工程作为一门学科，在过去 18 个月里变化挺大的。我觉得可以说，相对于 18 个月前的门槛，现在当工程师可能比以往任何时候都更容易。这几乎创造出了这样的世界：真正厉害的工程师现在，如果以前他们是 10 倍工程师，现在就是千倍工程师。

Engineering as a discipline, it's changed quite a bit in the last 18 months. And I think it's probably fair to say that it's relative to where the bar was 18 months ago, it's probably easier for you to be an engineer right now than it ever has been. And that almost creates like these worlds of like where the really amazing engineers are now like if before they were 10x engineers, they're thousand-x engineers.

是的。

Yeah.

实际上，我不认为设计领域也发生了同样的情况。我这么说是因为我自己经常摆弄 Fable，尝试不同的模型，而到今天我非常确定的一件事是：我能表达出我打开一个产品、摆弄它时想要的感觉，但我没法把它创造出来。我最喜欢的设计师之一——我不知道能不能点名——她在 decimal 的事情上帮了我很多，我去找她，告诉她这就是我想要的感觉，她就能拿出让我有那种感觉的东西。所以我认为正在发生的是，能够把模糊的感觉转化为实际产品的设计师，这些人现在需求大得多。我认为这对招聘经理意味着，旧规则、旧做法、旧招聘方式，你得赶紧摆脱，你得意识到你在为这个人竞争。如果他们优秀，他们很可能会有很多 offer 可选。这么说可能不太公平，但很多情况下，这些人已经有工作了，所以你真的得进来竞争。这意味着给他们更好的体验。这意味着要意识到，是的，他们确实想要这份工作，但如果你想要这个候选人，你就得付出额外努力，并意识到你很可能只是他们最后阶段三个选择之一。所以所有那些旧常态，比如放候选人鸽子、不给他们最好的体验，你可以继续这么做。但别惊讶，如果最后你想要的候选人去了别的地方，因为再说一次，最好的人，最好的人是抢手的。我们 collective 里有些人，我早上醒来有时会想，等等，我们把这个人安排进了五六场面试，他们怎么应付得过来？但这挺酷的，对吧，因为到那时他们知道自己很抢手。再说一次，回到我当员工时怎么想这些事，我会希望在最后拿到两三个 offer，因为那样你可以稍微玩一下游戏，确保自己拿到最好的 offer。

I don't think the same thing has played out in design actually. And I say this as somebody who messes about with Fable a lot and like I try the different models and if there is something that I am very sure of to this day is that I am able to communicate how I want to feel when I open up a product and when I tinker with it, I'm not able to create it. One of my favorite designers who I don't know whether I can call out, um, who helps me quite a lot on decimal stuff, I go to her and I tell her this is the feeling that I'm after, and she's able to come back with something that makes me feel like that. And so I think what's kind of playing out is that the value of a designer that's able to translate hey vague feeling into actual product, those people are way more in demand now. And I think what that means for hiring managers is that the old rules and the old way of doing things, the old way of hiring, you kind of need to snap out of that and you need to realize that you're competing for this person. If they're good, they're probably going to have their pick of offers. I guess probably not fair to say it this way, but in a lot of cases, these people are already in jobs and so you really need to come in and compete. That means giving them a better experience. That means realizing that, you know, yes, they do want the job, but if you want the candidate, then you're going to need to go the extra mile and realize that you are probably one of three people that they have at the finish line. And so all of the old norms that existed of like ghosting candidates or not giving them the best experience, you can continue to do that. Don't be surprised if at the end the candidate that you wanted ended up somewhere else because again the best ones, best ones are in demand. Some of the ones that we have in the collective, I wake up in the morning sometimes I'm like wait this person we've put them into like five or six interviews like how are they juggling this? But it's pretty cool right because at that point they know they're in demand. And again, going back to like how I used to think about these things when I was an employee, I'd want the two to three offers at the end because then, you know, you can play the game a little bit and make sure you get the best offer.

那我们具体一点。假设我是招聘经理，我是五家争抢一位抢手设计师的公司之一。在这个过程中，有哪些最佳实践，或者甚至招聘陷阱，是我需要避免或时刻留意的？

So, let's get super specific here. Hypothetically, let's say I'm a hiring manager. I'm one of five companies going after an in-demand designer. What are some best practices, or maybe even hiring pitfalls, that I need to avoid or keep top of mind throughout that process?

我想到一位具体的招聘经理，是 Superpower 的设计负责人 Hannah。

One specific hiring manager that comes to mind is Hannah, head of design at Superpower.

对，她很棒。

Yeah, she's awesome.

她是我们合作过的最喜欢的招聘经理之一。她有一种方式，当她看到一个喜欢的作品集时，她用的词特别搞笑。我们分享了某个人的作品集——我其实不记得是谁了——但她说的大意是：“为了能雇到这个设计师，我愿意杀一千只大猩猩。”当然，你对此开了个玩笑。我记得你说的大意是：“也许你只要把薪水提高一点，就不需要杀一千只大猩猩了。”

One of my favorite hiring managers that we've worked with. She just has this way of, when she sees a portfolio that she likes, the words she uses are just so funny. We shared a portfolio of someone—I actually can't remember who it was—but she said something along the lines of, "I would kill a thousand gorillas to be able to hire this designer." And of course, you made a joke about it. I think you said something along the lines of, "Maybe if you just raise the salary a little bit, you won't need to kill a thousand gorillas."

因为她说了那句话，当然，我自然而然就想截图发给候选人。我以前从没做过招聘。我不知道那样做是否不专业。反正，我还是做了。候选人的反应是：“天哪，我想把它裱起来。这太酷了。我觉得自己很特别。”这几乎就是主题，对吧？如果你意识到这些设计师很抢手，你怎么让他们感到特别？做一些小事，比如发一条个性化的留言。我们最终为招聘经理在 Decimals 上建了一个完整的功能，让他们能发个性化留言。最近甚至有人更进一步，说：“嘿，我想给候选人发一段个性化视频，我会花 3 分钟浏览他们的作品集，告诉他们为什么我觉得他们的作品集很棒，然后向他们做推介。”而这一切都发生在他们还没——哦对，我感兴趣——之前。他们意识到，为了得到第一次面试，他们需要向这位设计师做推介。

As a result of her saying that, of course, the natural thing that I do is I want to screenshot that and send that to the candidate. I've never been a recruiter before. I don't know whether that was unprofessional of me to do. I mean, whatever. I did it anyway. And the candidate was like, "Oh my god, I want to frame this. This is so cool. I feel so special." And it's almost like that is the theme, right? If you realize that these designers are in demand, how do you make them feel special? Doing the small things, like sending them a personalized note. We ended up building a whole feature for hiring managers to be able to send a personalized note on Decimals. And pretty recently, we've even had someone go a step further, which is like, "Hey, I want to send candidates a personalized video where I'm going to spend 3 minutes and go through their portfolio. I'm going to tell them why I think their portfolio is excellent, and then I'm going to do the pitch to them." And all of this is before they have even had—oh yeah, I'm interested. They're realizing that they need to pitch this designer in order to get that first interview.

我注意到，所有刚完成种子轮融资的新创公司，都觉得自己是全世界最酷的公司。每个人都假设每个设计师都会放下一切，排队想为他们工作。但事实并非如此。如果你瞄准的是这种知道自己很抢手的人，你几乎得戴上一点销售的帽子，对吧？一半是销售，一半是面试。就像你之前提到 Claire 时说的，在她进行的每一次对话中，她 50% 是在展示自己，50% 是在面试那家公司，看他们是否值得她认真考虑。我几乎想反过来，谈谈 Doug Dues。

Something I've noticed is that all the new startups that are fresh off a seed round, they all think they are the single coolest company in the entire world. And everybody just assumes that every designer is going to drop everything and want to get in line to work for them. And that is just not the case. If you are targeting this persona that knows they're in demand, you almost have to put a little bit of a sales hat on, right? It's half sales, half interviewing. In the same way that, going back to what you talked about earlier with Claire, in every conversation she's having, she's 50% presenting herself and 50% interviewing that company to see if they're even worth her strongly considering. I would almost flip it and talk about the Doug Dues.

我想我们经常看到这种情况，对吧？就像你说的，有人刚完成种子轮融资，对自己的产品非常兴奋，但然后他们出现了，却从没有设计师参与过他们的产品，你打开网站就能看出来，对吧？再说一次，我说这话很自在。我不是设计师。在创办 Just 之前，我肯定会落入这个阵营——就像，“啊，看起来够好了。”设计师看到后会想：“这个人显然不在乎设计。不，我不会接受面试。我不想和这个人说话。”我认为这是基本的一条。我认为非常非常长的流程是另一条。有八、九轮面试。再说一次，我觉得那属于旧世界。我经历过。作为一个经历过并成功几次拿到工作的人，让我参加 8 场 45 分钟的面试，不同的人都在问我同一个问题的不同变体，你从中得不到任何有价值的东西。

And I think we see these quite often, right? To your point, somebody that's just raised a seed round and they're really excited about their product, but then they turn up and they've never had a designer work on their product, and you open up the website and you can tell, right? Again, I feel comfortable saying this. I'm not a designer. I would definitely have fallen into this camp before starting Just—like, "Ah, it looks good enough." A designer looks at that and they're like, "This person clearly doesn't care about design. No, I'm not going to take the interview. I don't want to speak to this person." I think that's one of the basic ones. I think really, really long processes is another one. Having the eight, nine rounds. Again, I feel like that's something that belongs to the old world. I went through that. As somebody that went through it and successfully got the job a couple of times, there is nothing valuable that you get from giving me 8 or 45-minute interviews with different people that are all asking me different variations of the same question.

直接进入工作。就让我们一起工作。让我们一起解决一个问题。那会给你比我能够编造出“告诉我一次你 blah blah blah”的答案变体多得多的信息。就像，拜托，那可以被钻空子。

Just get to a work. Just let's work together. Let's work through a problem together. That's gonna give you way more information than me being able to come up with variations of the answer of like, "Tell me about a time when blah blah blah." It's like, come on, that can be gamed.

说到这个，我最近和一位朋友聊过，几乎每个听这个节目的人都会认识他，他一直在一家非常高调的公司工作。他有很多选择，他甚至不回复那些第一次接触不是让他和高管团队或设计负责人交谈的公司。如果你提出的第一步是说：“对，你知道，和我们的招聘人员谈谈，”他根本不会回复。他就出局了。是的，我明白——不是每个人都处于那个位置，但如果你想在那个层级玩，这是唯一的办法。

I talked to a friend recently on that note who almost everybody listening to this would know, and they've been working at a very high-profile company. They had their pick of the litter, and he didn't even respond to companies that didn't lead with him in his first touch point being able to talk to somebody on the executive team or like the head of design. If you presented a first step and said, "Yeah, you know, speak to our recruiter," he didn't even respond. He's out. And yeah, I get it—not everybody's in that position, but if you want to play at that tier, it's the only way to do it.

就像我说过的，在设计师这边，你没有第二次机会来创造第一印象，我认为招聘经理这边也是如此，对吧？一个做得非常好的例子是 LiveKit 的 Matt Herzog，他的第一轮是：“先和我谈。我们一对一聊聊，你和我。”这实际上和大多数公司的做法很不同。大多数公司先做招聘人员筛选，但我就是不认为那是正确的做法，因为你让一个不是设计师的人来做设计工作的筛选。这对我来说完全说不通。说得通的做法是 LiveKit 的 Matt 所做的，就像：“让我来做第一部分。如果我们聊得好，我感觉不错，我就把你转给招聘人员，他们可以做筛选，谈谈后勤、地点、薪水之类的。”那仍然有它的位置，但别把它放在第一位。

In the same way that I said you don't get a second chance to create a first impression on the designer side, I think that's also true for the hiring manager side, right? And an example of somebody who does this very well is Matt Herzog at LiveKit, where his first round is like, "Talk to me first. Let's have a chat one-on-one, you and me." It's actually pretty different to how most companies do it. Most companies do the recruiter screen first, but I just don't think that's the right way of doing it, because you are putting somebody who is not a designer and you're getting them to do a screen for a design job. That doesn't make any sense at all to me. The way that makes sense is what Matt at LiveKit has done, which is like, "Let me do the first bit. If we have a good chat and I get a good feeling, I pass you on to the recruiter and they can do the screen and talk through the logistics, location, salary, all that kind of stuff." There's still a place for that, but just don't make it the first thing.

我收到很多来自初创公司的问题，问如何构建招聘流程。我们大致谈过压缩流程，也许以不是招聘人员的第一次接触开始。这个话题下的另一个子问题——我收到一大堆私信，我基本上就把我的回答外包给你了——是关于这个想法：我们要不要做带回家的作业？那个带回家的作业需要付费吗？它应该关于产品吗？我们应该跳过那个，做工作试用吗？你注意到什么？对于那家可能刚完成种子轮融资、正在寻找创始设计师的初创公司，你有什么建议吗？

I get a lot of questions from startups asking about how to structure the hiring process. We've talked about condensing broadly, maybe leading with a first touch point that isn't a recruiter. Another sub-question in that topic—I have a ton of DMs and I'm basically just going to outsource my answer to you—is around this idea of: do we do a take-home assignment? Does that take-home assignment need to be paid? Should it be about the product? Should we skip that and do a work trial? What are you kind of noticing? And do you have any recommendations for, again, that startup that maybe just raised a seed round that's looking for that founding designer?

我想到两家公司，我认为他们做得特别好。

There's two companies that come to mind that I think do it particularly well.

其中一个就是 Lovable Nad，你显然已经多次邀请他上播客了，他是个非常有思想、非常非常聪明的人，还有 Superpower 的 Hannah。他们的方法非常相似，对他们来说，工作试用部分非常重要，Hannah 甚至极端到一开始先做个氛围检查，然后直接进入工作。这对我来说太令人耳目一新了，因为我认为任何其他关于面试、行为问题、有整本书教你如何准备这些面试的东西，我的整个想法是，这感觉像演戏。感觉就像如果我必须想出五个我职业生涯中的例子，告诉你我有多棒，并构建一个故事弧，告诉你问题是什么，那有什么意义？你雇我不是让我当政客。你雇我不是让我当发言人。你雇的是设计师。所以直接进入设计工作吧。别为一件相当简单的事情创造一个过于复杂的流程。我认为 Hannah 就是这样做的，如果氛围好，而且你知道一些基本条件都满足了，就直接进入工作试用。我认为这尤其适用于当今这个时代，有太多关于造假、作弊的讨论。就像直接进入工作试用吧，尤其是如果他们在同一个办公室。当然，有一些事情要注意。确保它是带薪的。确保你不要太关注结果和产出物，而更关注来回互动。我个人看待这件事的方式之一是，如果我要雇一个设计师，我想看看当我第一次告诉他们我不同意某事或我想换个角度时，他们如何反应，因为这是人性，对吧？如果我们一起工作，美好的时光很美好，但也会有摩擦的时候，这是健康的。你应该通过它来工作。

One of those is Lovable Nad you've obviously had on the podcast a bunch of times and like is such a thoughtful and really really smart guy and Hannah from Superpower. and they both have pretty similar approaches which is for them the work trial part is really important and Hannah even goes to the extreme of let's do a vibe check at the beginning and then let's just get straight into the work and that to me is so refreshing again because I think anything else about the interview about the behavioral questions about there's whole books written about how you can like prepare for these interviews and my whole thing is like it just it feels like theatrics It feels like if I have to think about five examples of things that I've done in my career and tell you about how amazing I was and and create the arc and tell you about the problem and that it's like what is the point? You're not hiring me to be a politician. You're not hiring me to be a spokesperson. You are hiring a designer. And so just get into the design work. Like stop stop trying to create an overly complex process for something that is pretty simple. And I think that's how Hannah approaches it, which is like if the vibe is good and you know some basics are checked, let's get straight into the work trial. And I think that's just so especially in today's day and age where so much is being spoken about, things that are being faked, things that are being cheated on. It's just like let's get straight into a work crow especially if they're in the same office. And of course there are like things to keep in mind. Make sure that it's paid. make sure that you don't focus too much on the outcome and the artifact, more on the like back and forth. And I think one of the ways that I look at it personally is like if I'm hiring a designer, I want to see how they react the first time that I tell them that I I disagree with something or that I I would like to take a different perspective because that's the human thing, right? That's the thing that if we're going to work together, the great times are great, but there's going to be times where there's going to be friction and that's a healthy thing. You should work through that.

好了，我们已经讨论了当今招聘格局中所有正在变化的事情。那薪酬呢？我们在那里看到了什么？你能给那些可能在市场上或考虑下一步的人一个小窗口，了解薪酬的现状吗？

Okay, so we've talked about all of the things that are shifting in today's hiring landscape. What about comp? What are we seeing there? Can you give people who are maybe either in the market or considering what might be next a little window into state of the world for compensation?

我认为一个我很有信心支持的主题是，一个人比以往任何时候都拥有更大的杠杆，这确实意味着团队可以说：“对，我们要少雇人，但我们雇的人，我们要给他们更好的薪水。”我们处在一个小泡沫里，对吧？我们合作的大多数公司，都在旧金山、纽约。那里显然有很多竞争。但每当我与那些不太了解那个市场的人交谈，他们发现一些设计工程师的薪水时，或者——我的意思是，我们要谈薪水，所以我不会谈具体个人，但最近我们安置到设计工程师职位或相当资深的产品设计职位的一些人，他们赚 30 万或接近这个数。我认为对很多人来说会想，哦哇，我本以为那是工程薪水。但我认为这就是一般主题，如果你有需求，供需关系，如果供应不足，你就需要支付更多并竞争。所以，我认为这绝对是我看到的一个主题。然后我看到的另一件事是，这些人开始意识到，我认为我最敏锐地看到这一点是在品牌角色中。品牌现在很难招聘，因为公司方面认为品牌设计师可以比产品设计师或设计工程师付得少，而另一方面，有些人可能自称品牌工程师，但你知道他们是具有系统思维的品牌设计师。

I think a theme that I feel pretty confident standing behind is that the fact that one person has way more leverage than ever before does mean that a team can say, "Right, we're going to hire less people, but the people that we hire, we're going to give them better salaries." We're in a little bubble, right? Most of the companies that we work with, it's like SF New York. There's clearly a lot of competition there. But whenever I speak to somebody who either doesn't know that market well and they find out some of the salaries of the like design engineers or I don't I mean we're going to talk about salaries so I'm not going to talk about individuals but some of the recent ones that we've placed into like design engineer roles or like pretty senior product design roles they're making 300 grand or close to that I think to a lot of people would be like oh wow I would have expected that to be like engineering salaries but I think that is the general theme of like if If you're in demand, supply and demand, like if there's not enough supply, then you're going to need to pay and compete more. So, I think that is definitely like a a theme that I see playing out. And then the other thing that I think I've seen playing out is some of these folks are starting to realize, and I think where I've seen it most acutely is in brand roles. brand right now is so hard to hire for because there's this complete mismatch of the company side who think that a brand designer they can pay less than a product designer or than a design engineer and then you have the other side of the like the person who they might call themselves a brand engineer but you know they're a brand designer with systems thinking

当然

Sure

他们意识到，实际上如果我能为你构建系统，我不需要是全职员工，系统允许你自助服务很多通常需要全职雇佣的事情，那么猜猜怎么着，你不需要全职雇我，也许你雇我作为自由职业者，也许你雇我作为承包商。人们意识到他们可以自由职业并收取相当高的费用。我不知道我们是否想点名，但我们都认识的一位品牌设计师，他直接告诉我：“嘿，我自由职业，我一年赚 50 到 75 万。”这对大多数创始人来说会是离谱的，但如果你想和我谈全职角色，那就是我的底线。当然，对大多数人来说，那会像是“不，我们没有那个”，那大概是四五个人的薪水。所以你看到了一点这种不匹配。

and they're realizing that actually if I can build you the system and I don't need to be a full-time employee and the system allows you to self-s serve for a lot of the stuff that you usually need a full-time time hire for then guess what you don't need to hire me full-time maybe you hire me as a freelancer maybe you hire me as a contractor and people realizing that they can freelance and charge pretty hefty amounts I don't know whether we want to name name him but there's a a brand designer that we both know who literally told me was like hey I'm freelancing I make 500 to 750k a year and that's going to be outrageous to most founders but if you want to talk to me about a full-time role that's my baseline and of course for most people that would be like no we don't have that's like probably four or five people's salaries. So so you see that mismatch a little bit.

嗯，这很令人鼓舞，是的，也许作为设计师我们被要求做更多一点，但我们在薪酬方面确实有更多杠杆。在我让你走之前，我确实想多听一点你的旅程，因为我觉得它特别鼓舞人心，我总是希望更多人创办公司。我希望更多人出去开始自己的事情，尝试它，构建东西。你是一个很好的例子，展示了那看起来像什么。所以也许给我们一点背景，比如你自己的创始人旅程是什么样的？有什么令人惊讶的，或者甚至是你对招聘市场或这种业务形态所做的假设？

Well it's encouraging that yeah maybe we're being asked to do a little bit more as designers but we do have more leverage in terms of comp. Before I let you go I do want to hear just a little bit more about your journey because I find it particularly inspiring and I I always just I want more people to start companies. I I want more people to go out and start their own thing, try it, build things. And you're a great example of what that kind of looks like. And so maybe just give us a little bit of the background like what has it been like going on your own founder journey? Anything that's surprising or even just the assumptions that maybe you made about the the hiring market or what this shape of business would look like?

我认为现在是成为创始人最迷人的时候，因为变化太多了。如果我们回溯到大约 12 个月前，或者大约一年前我们创办 Decimals 时，我没有招聘背景，没有设计背景。这对我来说是一个全新的世界，如果有的话，正因为如此，因为我没有最佳实践或规范可以依附。我认为我们早期有一个相当反传统的观点，那就是如果我们设法创造一种候选人真正喜欢的体验，我们就能得到最好的候选人，因此公司会跟随。我认为这相对于这个领域的许多创始人来说是相当反传统的，他们看到钱从哪里来，谁付钱给他们，他们认为对，我们只需要专注于那个。所以我经常思考的一件事是，有很多创始人进入这个领域，纯粹将其视为一个算法问题，比如嘿，我们需要创建完美的算法，在简历和工作描述之间找到匹配。

I think it's the most fascinating time to be a founder right now just because there's so much that's changing. If we rewind to like 12 or it was about a year ago that we started Decimals, I had no background as a recruiter, no background as a designer. This was a completely new world to me if anything because of that because I had no like best practices or you know norms to like be attached to. I think a pretty contrarian view that we had early on was that like if we manage to create an experience that candidates really love, we'll be able to get the best candidates and hence the companies will follow. And I think that's pretty contrarian relative to a lot of founders in this space that are like they see where the where where the money is coming from and who's paying them and they think right we just need to focus on that. And so like one thing that I I think about a lot is there's a lot of kind of founders going into the space purely seeing this as an algorithmic problem of like hey we need to create the perfect algorithm that finds a match between a resume and a job description.

一年下来，我真正意识到的是，那两份文件真的真的不值它们写在上面的那张纸。我们一次又一次地看到这种情况。招聘经理进来说，这是我们能给的最高薪资，我们绝不会付得比这更多，而且候选人必须在这个地点，必须是全职、每周五天到办公室。然后那个梦寐以求的设计师出现了，所有这些规则就全被抛到窗外了。突然之间他们就说，哦不，你看，对这个候选人，好吧，我们加薪。哦，你想远程工作？哦对，我们想办法，我们让它行得通。所以这对我来说是真正令人惊讶的事情之一，再次强调，作为一个没有背景的人进入这个领域，就是意识到人们说的和做的完全是两回事。正因为如此，我想我们在构建 Decimals 的方式上采取了一种稍微不同的方法，就是这种思路。所以这非常像一种初学者心态，只是试图创造一种我们自己作为候选人会乐意经历的体验。一年下来，我基本上学到的是我什么都不懂，而且我还有太多东西要学。

A year into this, what I have actually realized is that those two artifacts are really, really not worth the paper that they've written on. We see it time and time again. A hiring manager comes in and they say this is the maximum salary we're ever going to pay, we're never going to pay more than this, and the candidate needs to be in this location, and it needs to be a full five days in office role. And then the dream designer comes along, and all of those rules go out the window. And all of a sudden they're like, oh no, look, for this candidate, yeah, okay, we'll raise the salary. Oh, you want to work remote? Oh yeah, let's work, let's make it work. And so that's been one of the really surprising things for me, again, coming into this as somebody without the background, of just realizing what people say and what they do are very different things. Because of that, I think we've just taken a slightly different approach to how we've built Decimals and so like the thinking. And so it's very much a beginner's mindset and just trying to create an experience that we'd be happy to go through as candidates ourselves. A year in, and I've basically learned that I don't know anything and that I've still got so much to learn.

初学者心态可能是如今任何人做任何事最重要的心态，就因为变化的速度。所以，我感谢你，Danny。我感谢你今天分享的一切，也感谢你愿意来，揭开帷幕，展示当今市场实际发生的情况。还有你投资于这种模式和支持设计师的方式。它以一种让我兴奋的方式对设计师极其友好，也是我想继续参与其中的事情。所以，我感谢你，呃，我很兴奋能把这一系列见解分享给世界。

Beginner's mindset is probably the most important mindset for anybody doing anything nowadays, just with the rate of change. So, I appreciate you, Danny. I appreciate everything that you shared today and your willingness to come on and kind of pull back the curtain and show like what's actually happening in today's market. And also just the fact that you're investing in this model and way of supporting designers. Like, it's so incredibly designer friendly in a way that gets me excited and is something that I wanted to continue to be a part of. So, I appreciate you and uh I'm excited to get this set of insights out into the world.

好的，伙计。谢谢你邀请我。

All right, man. Thanks for having me.

嘿，如果你喜欢这一集，别忘了每周四我都会和 Tommy Gio 一起在 Dive Radio 直播，我们会深入探讨热门话题，并听到业内众多不可思议的设计师的声音。所以，如果你想把它加到日历上，就去 dive.club/radio，我们周四下午 4 点东部时间见。

Hey, if you enjoyed this episode, don't forget that every Thursday I go live with Tommy Gio for Dive Radio, where we deep dive into trending topics and hear from a ton of incredible designers in the industry. So, if you want to get that on your calendar, just go to dive.club/radio and I'll see you on Thursdays at 4:00 p.m. Eastern.