高通 CEO 克里斯蒂亚诺·安蒙谈 AI、地缘政治与角斗士心态

你喜欢美国技术为美国服务，还是美国技术为世界服务？这是我们正在进行的辩论，对吧？Cristiano，欢迎来到 CEO 时刻。作为一家半导体公司，高通正处于当今一些最有趣的故事中心，从地缘政治到人工智能。我们期待听到你对这些事情的看法。但首先，你说过你告诉你的团队我们身处角斗士行业。你真的这么说吗？你是什么意思？

Do you like America technology for America or you like America technology for the world? That's a debate we're having now, right? Cristiano, welcome to the CEO moment. As a semiconductor company, Qualcomm sits inside some of the most interesting stories happening today from geopolitics to artificial intelligence. We're looking forward to hearing your perspective on those things. But first, you've said I tell my team we are in the gladiator business. Do you honestly say that and what do you mean by that?

你知道，这很有趣。我认为你在技术中看到的，尤其是在移动领域，对吧？尤其是移动，那是我们的起源。那是高通凭借我们在无线和蜂窝行业所做的而闻名的时候。在移动业务中，有那么多公司成为了世界上最有价值的公司，然后从英雄变成了零，对吧？所以技术变化如此之快。

You know, it's interesting. I think what you see in technology, especially in mobile, right? Especially mobile, that's where we came from. That's when Qualcomm got placed on the map as what we have done in the wireless and the cellular industry. And in the mobile business, you have so many companies that became some of the most valuable companies in the world and they went from hero to zero, right? So technology changed so fast.

这就像在竞技场里。

That's like being in the coliseum.

所以你必须学会变得灵活，你必须学会今天的成功并不意味着什么。所以这就是我使用这个比喻的方式。我使用这个比喻的原因是因为如果你是一名角斗士，你去斗兽场，会有三种结果。你会赢，你会输，或者你们都会输。所以你进去，你有 32% 的成功机会。如果你赢了，你唯一成就的就是你可以再去斗兽场一次。我认为这就是我们对自己的看法。我认为我们必须非常努力。这是一个竞争非常激烈的市场。它非常动态。你必须在创新和技术上获胜，如果你赢了，很好，你必须再次做到。成功并不意味着什么，因为你必须赢得下一个周期。

So you have to learn how to become nimble and you have to learn that success today doesn't mean anything. So that's how I use this analogy. The reason I use this analogy is because if you're a gladiator, you go to the Colosseum, there's going to be three outcomes. You're going to win, you're going to lose, or you're both going to lose. So you go in, you have a 32% chance of success. If you win, the only thing you accomplished, you can go to the Colosseum one more time. And I think that's how we think about ourselves. I think we have to work very hard. It's a very competitive market. It's very dynamic. You have to win on innovation and technology and if you win great you have to do it again. Success does not mean anything because you have to win the next cycle.

无论你拥有什么成功，都是暂时的。

Whatever success you're having it's temporary.

是的。我认为这就是高通的历史。这就是为什么你看公司 40 年的历程，公司已经重新发明了自己很多次，还在继续这样做，部分原因就是我认为这种心态非常有用。

Yeah. And I think that has been the history of Qualcomm. That's why you look at the 40 years of the company, the company has reinvented itself so many times, was still doing it and part of it is why I think this mentality is so helpful.

你还说过，无论人们认为人工智能会变成什么，它可能会更大。你为什么这么确定？

You've also said that whatever people believe AI is going to be, it's probably going to be bigger. What makes you so sure?

看，我总是喜欢做比较，看看事情在技术世界中是如何发展的。让我们回到网络，好吗？早在 2000 年，当人们说互联网会很大，每个人都说互联网可能实现什么，如果你看现在 26 年后，互联网比人们想象的要大得多，大一个数量级，如此多的行业催生了全新的行业、全新的公司，它改变了世界运作的方式，它从根本上改变了，我认为人工智能就像那样。人工智能是，你知道，无论人们是否会争论你还没看到它，你知道这真的发生得够快吗，但当你看到这项技术的潜力时，从长远来看它可能被低估了，这是一个根本性的变化，计算机将如何构建，我们将如何使用计算机，有太多元素，它改变了人机界面，我们现在可以以我们与自己互动的方式与计算机互动，这将改变设备，将改变我们的移动设备，将改变我们在计算机上运行的程序类型。你有软件自己编写。它将从操作系统到编排器和智能体，从应用到技能。它将从根本上改变不仅是你的手机或 PC 或汽车。它将创造一个全新的机器人领域。它将改变互联网。它将改变搜索。所以，它非常大。它确实是如此深刻的变革。

Look, I always like to do comparisons and look how things had played out in the world of technology. Let's go back to the web, okay? Back in the 2000 when people said the internet's going to be big and everybody that said what would be possible the internet if you look now 26 years later the internet is way bigger than people thought by order of magnitude so many industries enable completely new industries completely new companies it change how the world works it fundamentally changed and I think AI is like that AI is you know whether you people would argue you yet don't see it is that you know is this really happening fast enough but when you look at the potential of this technology is probably underhyped in the long run it's a fundamental change how computers going to be built how we're going to use computers there's so many elements of that it changes the human computer interface we can now interact the computer the way we interact with ourselves that's going to change devices going to change our mobile devices it's going to change the type of programs we run on the computers. You have a software to write itself. It's going to be from OSS to orchestrators and agents from application to skills. It's going to fundamentally change not only your phones or PC or cars. It's going to create a whole new field of robotics. It's going to change the internet. It's going to change search. So, it's very big. It is actually that profound of a transformation.

我们会回到它有多大。但回到你最初关于角斗士行业的比喻，你作为 CEO 肯定认识到，许多在 1999 年、2000 年崛起的公司今天已经不复存在了。

We'll get back to how big it is. But to your original analogy about the gladiator business, you surely recognize as a CEO that a lot of the companies that were on the rise in 1999 2000 are no longer with us today.

我们幸存下来了，我认为情况绝对是这样。这意味着即使关于人工智能，有趣的事情是，我回到互联网的比较。如果我在互联网的早期说过，哦是的，社交媒体的赢家是 Orkut，或者社交媒体的赢家是 MySpace。它完成了。游戏结束了。不。地图是 MapQuest。不。所以，我认为人工智能会像那样。会有许多不同的模型。它们会对消费者模型有好处，对企业有好处。会有不同的公司提供智能体。在半导体、架构和技术方面也是如此。这就是为什么我认为我的角斗士心态仍然适用于一个快速发展的技术行业，你必须继续从斗兽场的一场战斗转移到下一场，再下一场，因为随着技术不断发展，工作没有完成，赢家可能会改变。

We survived and I think that is absolutely the case. Which means the interesting thing even about AI, I go back to the internet comparison. If I had said in the early days of the internet, oh yeah, the social media winner is Orkut, or the social media winner is MySpace. It is done. It's game over. No. The map is MapQuest. No. So, I think AI is going to be like that. There's going to be a number of different models. They're going to be good for consumer models going to be good for enterprises. They're going to be different companies that are going to provide agents. is also true on semis and the architecture and the technology. That's why I think my gladiator mentality still apply on a fast-moving technology industry you have to keep moving from one fight on the Colosseum to the next and to the next because the work is not done as the technology continue to evolve the winners could change.

让我们回到开始。你出生在巴西的坎皮纳斯。

Let's go back to the beginning. You were born in Campinas Brazil.

是的。

Yes.

你的父亲是一名电气工程师。

And your father was an electrical engineer.

没错。

That is correct.

这两件事如何塑造了你？

How did those two things shape you?

我在巴西出生和长大。在巴西上工程学院。我的父亲是电气工程师。所以这对我选择那条道路有一点影响。我还记得我父亲对我说，你上大学时可以做任何你想做的事，只要是工程、法学院、医学院。

I've been born and raised in Brazil. Went to engineering school in Brazil. My father was electrical engineer. So I kind of that has a little bit of an influence in me choosing that path. I also remember my father said to me, you can do anything you want when you go to college as long as engineering, law school, medical school.

那些是选项。

Those are the options.

所以我说，如果我去法学院，我将不得不读很多书。我不想那样做。如果我去医学院，我将不得不处理血液。我不想这样做。我喜欢科学。我喜欢数学。所以，工程似乎是一条好路。我对电子、半导体和通信感兴趣。我一直喜欢无线通信。当我毕业时，那是蜂窝通信的开始。我觉得我有幸能够参与蜂窝通信的每一次转变，从模拟对讲机类型的电话一直到现在的 5G 和未来的 6G。但不管怎样，这就是我的故事。

So I said, if I go to law school, I'm going to have to read a lot of books. I don't want to do that. If I go to medical school, I'm going to have to deal with blood. I don't want to do this. I like science. I like math. So, engineering seems like a good path. And I was interested in electronics and semiconductor and communications. I always like wireless communications. When I got out of school, it was the beginning of cellular. And I feel I've been privileged to have been able to work to every single transition of cellular from analog walkie-talkie type phone all the way to now 5G and future 6G. And but anyway, that's my story.

你在 1990 年代离开了高通，最终去巴西经营一家公司。当你接管时，那家公司几乎破产。面对那种失败教会了你什么？

You left Qualcomm in the 1990s eventually to run a company in Brazil. That company was nearly bankrupt when you took it over. What did facing that kind of failure teach you?

这是一个好问题。我实际上喜欢谈论这个。高通是那家公司的少数股东，他们想组建一个团队去重组那家公司，并试图使那家公司可行。

This is a great question. I actually love talking about this. Qualcomm was a minority shareholder in that company and they wanted to put together a team to go restructure that company and try to make that company viable.

所以我自愿去了，因为我一直认为我在一家快速成长的公司有经验，但我想获得在困境中的经验。我认为这对我来说会是一次很棒的管理经历。结果在那里待了将近三年，我觉得我在三年里学到了十年的经验。如果你处于困境中，你会担心如何支付工资、如何缴税，以及如何维持运营。

So I volunteered to go because I always thought that I had experience in a fast-growing company, but I wanted to get experience in a distressed environment. I thought it would be a great management experience for me. It turned out to be almost three years there, and I think I learned 10 years of experience in three years. If you're in a distressed environment, you're trying to worry about how you make payroll, how to pay taxes, and how you keep the lights on.

你呢，你觉得是什么让你去寻找这样的机会？

What about you, do you think made you seek that out?

我一直有这样的思路：如果你想成为一名全面的高管，你需要获得如何快速成长业务、如何在稳定状态下优化业务以及如何应对压力环境的经验。我认为那是一个很好的机会。我喜欢挑战。我喜欢接手非常困难的事情，这对我来说是一次很棒的经历。我认为当我们把公司稳定到正 EBITDA 时，运营商被卖给了更大的运营商，然后高通让我回去从事半导体业务。

I always have this thought process that if you want to be a well-rounded executive, you need to get experience in how to grow a business fast, how to optimize a business in steady state, and how to deal with a stressful environment. And I thought that was a great opportunity. I like the challenge. I like to take things that are very difficult to do, and it was a great experience for me. And I think when we stabilized the company to positive EBITDA, the operator got sold to a bigger operator, and then Qualcomm asked me to go back and work on the semiconductor business.

好吧，让我换个方式问这个问题。你职业生涯的大部分时间都在高通，但有什么关于公司的东西是你只有离开它才能学到的？

Well, let me ask that question a little bit differently. You've been at Qualcomm for most of your career, but what did you learn about the company that you could have only learned by leaving it?

当时是蜂窝宽带的开端。这是在智能手机之前。实际上，我在那里做的其中一件事是第一次有人在手机上获得兆比特的数据速度。那是高通当时创造的一项技术，叫做 EVDO。在那家公司是 EVDO 在拉丁美洲的首次部署之一。所以我一直知道高通前进的方向是一个非常成功的方向——预测无线领域将发生什么的能力。在完成那个任务后，我也渴望回到圣地亚哥的高通。

At the time it was the beginning of broadband in cellular. This is prior to the smartphone. And actually one of the things I did there was the first time that somebody got a megabit data speed on a cell phone. It was a technology that Qualcomm created at the time called EVDO. And being in that company was one of the first deployments of EVDO in Latin America. So I always knew that the direction that Qualcomm was going was a very successful direction—the ability to predict what's going to happen in wireless. That was kind of also eager to go back to Qualcomm in San Diego after that mission was accomplished.

你是连续第四位工程师出身的高通 CEO。工程师比 MBA 更擅长当 CEO 吗？

You're the fourth engineer in a row to run Qualcomm. Do engineers make better CEOs than MBAs?

在高通，工程师能成为好的 CEO，原因是我们首先是一家工程公司。我认为大多数员工都在工程领域。我们在技术创新上投入了大量资金。

Engineers make good CEOs at Qualcomm, and the reason is because we're an engineering company first. I think the majority of employees are in engineering. We invest significant amounts in technology innovation.

今年夏天你将迎来担任 CEO 五周年。你是在全球芯片短缺期间开始的。回顾那段时期，有什么你会做得不同的事情吗？

This summer you'll be recognizing your fifth anniversary as CEO. You started during the global chip shortage. Looking back on that period, is there anything that you would have done differently?

我不知道。我认为可能当时我们正在开始转型公司的过程。我们刚刚有一些挑战需要克服——一场法律战，克服一次敌意收购尝试——非常具有挑战性的时期。我当时做的一件事是我说我们需要加速技术转型，以改变公司的方向。所以实际上，在最大的逆境中，也就是在芯片短缺之前，我们将 5G 加速了两年，这创造了无线行业的新周期。然后当我们应对转型和芯片严重短缺时，我认为我们尽了最大努力继续专注于公司的多元化。有一件事，如果我有水晶球——如果我们有水晶球——当时我们必须做出优先选择。我们决定需要稳定公司，建立相邻业务，并等到我们执行数据中心计划。事后看来，我们可能应该当时就开始，但是……

I don't know. I think possibly at that time we were starting the process of transforming the company. We just had some challenges that we had to overcome—a legal battle, overcoming a hostile acquisition attempt—very challenging time. And one of the things I did at that time was I said we needed to accelerate the technology transition to be able to change the direction of the company. So we actually, in the middle of the biggest adversity, which is right before the chip shortage, we kind of accelerated 5G by 2 years, which created a new cycle in the wireless industry. And then as we dealt with the transition and the massive shortage we had on chips, I think we did the best we could to continue to be focused on the diversification of the company. One thing, if I had the crystal ball—if we had a crystal ball—we had to make priority choices at that time. And we decided that we needed to stabilize the company, build the adjacent business, and wait until we execute on our data center plan. In hindsight, we probably should have started back then, but...

你担心你在这方面太慢了？

You fear you were too slow to that?

我们不得不做出优先选择，而且我们没有在数据中心取得成功所需的所有资产。所以我们优先考虑了其他机会。事后看来，如果我能回到过去，知道我今天所知道的，我们可能会找到一种方法来加速我们建立数据中心计划的能力。

We had to make priority calls and we didn't have all the assets that were necessary to succeed in the data center. So we kind of prioritized other opportunities. In hindsight, if I could go back in time, knowing what I know today, we probably would find a way to accelerate our ability to build a data center plan.

你设想了一个人类与信息互动的方式超越智能手机的世界。历史让我对这个预测非常紧张。我们有那家叫 Humane 的公司和他们的 pin。我们有 Google Glass。我们有 Snap 的 Spectacles。我们甚至在元宇宙中有过冒险。这些都没有真正像这些设备的利润所说的那样起飞。你现在能说服我，我们一直在等待的那个未来终于到来了吗？

You envision a world where how humans interact with information moves beyond the smartphone. History makes me very nervous about this prediction. We have that company called Humane and their pin. We had Google Glass. We had specs from Snap. We even had our adventures in the metaverse. None of these things really took off the way that the profits of these devices said they would. Can you convince me now that that future that we've been waiting for is finally here?

是的，我要回顾历史，但我会以与你不同的方式回顾历史。当我们思考移动领域的转型时，你必须真正拉远视角，才能看到全貌。所以，我要讲两个故事。一个故事是你有手机和数字蜂窝 2G，每个人都有手机。那是开始出现的功能手机。直板机、翻盖手机等等。

Yes, I am going to go back to history, but I'm going to go back to history a little different than you did. You have to really zoom out so you can see the whole picture when we think about transitions in mobile. So, I'm going to tell two stories. One story is you had phones and digital cellular 2G, everybody had a phone. That was the feature phone that started showing up. Candy bar, flipper phones and all of that.

我在我的诺基亚上玩贪吃蛇。

I was playing snake on my Nokia.

是的。然后你开始看到那些手机有了彩色显示屏，能播放音乐等等。另一方面你有 PDA。你有 Palm PDA。记得 Palm、Sharp，你有 PDA。所以高通，我们在智能手机之前很久就开始思考这个问题。我们开始思考：如果我们把两者结合起来呢？我们把 PDA 和手机放在一起。首先我们把 3G 卡放入 PDA，然后我们卖掉的公司 Tokyo Sera，因为我们曾经制造手机，做了第一个手机形态的 Palm。但那些是早期概念。周围有很多缺失的东西。你仍然没有宽带。你仍然没有运行高级操作系统的能力。你仍然没有应用生态系统的成熟概念。但你可以看到这个方向。当你有能力现在做宽带，你现在有成熟的互联网。然后突然你有了处理器。你发现我现在可以把它变成一台电脑。我可以有一个完整的操作系统。我要去应用商店，宽带。智能手机革命以令人难以置信的轨迹改变了。我认为今天我们开始思考它。我们怎么能没有智能手机？对吧？我们第一次研究 Meta Ray-Ban 眼镜时，Llama 还不存在。所以当时的想法是什么？你走在路上，有摄像头，你看到什么东西，按一个按钮，生成一个故事，发布在 Instagram 上。但然后发生了一些事情。Llama 出现了。突然我可以连接到一个智能体。我可以问一个问题，翻译这个，读这个。这个人是谁？那个人是谁？然后你开始改变它。

Yes. And then you started to see those phones getting color displays, they play music, etc. On the other side you have PDAs. You have Palm PDAs. Remember the Palm, the Sharp, you have PDAs. So Qualcomm, we started to think about this way before the smartphone. We started to think about it: What if we combine the two? We have the PDA and a phone together. So first we put a 3G card into a PDA, and then the company that we sold, Tokyo Sera, because we used to make phones, did the first Palm in a cell phone form factor. But those things were early concepts. There were a lot of missing things around it. You still don't have broadband. You still don't have the ability to run a high-level OS. You still don't have a mature concept of an application ecosystem. But you could see the direction that this was going. When you had the ability to now do broadband, you have now a mature internet. And then all of a sudden you have the processor. You figure out I can now make this into a computer. I can have a whole OS. I'm going to app store, broadband. And the smartphone revolution changed with a trajectory that was unbelievable. And I think today we started to think about it. How could we not have smartphones? Right? The first time that we worked on the Meta Ray-Ban glasses, Llama didn't exist. So what was the idea? You're going to be walking around and there's cameras and you see something, you press a button, you generate a story, you post on Instagram. But then something happened. Llama happened. All of a sudden I can connect to an agent. I can ask a question, translate this, read this. Who's this person? Who's that? And then you started to change it.

每次大的技术转型，都会出现大量实验。比如现在，我手头就有 40 种不同的个人 AI 设备设计。有公司在做眼镜，这很明显，还有珠宝、吊坠、笔、手环、手表，一切能连接到智能体的东西。甚至还有看起来像闹钟、你可以跟它说话的东西。这些产品都出来了吗？我不知道。我跟你说，现在我很放心地押一个赌注：眼镜会成功，因为这是黄金地段。它靠近我的眼睛、耳朵和嘴巴。我一转头，你就能看到我所看到的。而真正决定成功的问题是，AI 要成熟到什么程度，才能让工作负载逐渐转移。所以明天，你今天在手机上做的事情，可能会更方便地在眼镜上完成。比如你在餐厅拿到账单，看一眼账单说请现在用我的支票账户支付，就完成了。我们看到一些用例：我可能正在跟你说话，然后我去别的地方，智能体会说 Cristiano，我注意到你现在有空。我能跟你谈谈你日历上的冲突吗？他说可以。说有个会议冒出来了。哪个优先级更高？这个会议优先级高。我能安排另一个吗？是的，请安排。实际上，我看到一些应用，智能体真的会打电话给一个人，协商另一个会议的时间。所以，如果这些东西开始解决新的摩擦，人们与计算机的交互方式就会有所不同，那可能是一种不同的设备。

Every new big transition, you have a lot of experimentation. Like right now I have 40 different designs today of people doing personal AI devices. There are companies doing glasses, which is obvious, their jewelry, their pendants, their pens, their bracelets, their watches, everything that can connect to an agent. There's even something that looks like an alarm clock that you can talk to. What all those been out? I don't know. I tell you what, right now I'm very comfortable making one bet: glasses will, because this is prime real estate. It's close to my eyes, to my ears, to my mouth. When I turn my head, you see what I see. And then the real question to drive success is how much does AI mature so that gradually workload starts to shift. So tomorrow there may be things that you do on your phone today and it's going to be just more convenient, you may do in your glasses. Like you got a bill in a restaurant, you look at the bill and you say please pay this bill right now with my checking account and that's it. We see some use cases that I may be talking to you and then I go somewhere else and the agent will say Cristiano, I notice you have a break right now. Can I talk to you about a conflict in your calendar? He said yes. Said there's this meeting that popped up. Which one's higher priority? This meeting is high priority. Can I schedule the other one? Yes, please do. And actually, I saw some applications the agent actually call a person and negotiate a time for another meeting. So, if those things start to get a hold of new friction, people are going to interact with the computers a little bit different and that could be a different device.

我理解这项创新会以各种方式减少摩擦，但我也想到它会以各种方式制造新的摩擦。比如，你对隐私问题有什么担忧？你描述的世界是，我的眼镜里一直有录音器，也许我的戒指里也有。我周围的每个人都在记录发生的事情，也许是为了帮助他们过上更优化的生活。但对于我们这些不想牺牲今天某些生活方式的人来说，该怎么办？

I understand all the ways in which this innovation is going to bring down friction, but I also think about all the ways that it will create new types of friction. What concerns do you have about, say, privacy concerns? You're describing a world where there are recorders all the time in my glasses, maybe in my ring. Everyone around me is recording what's happening perhaps to help them live a more optimized life. But what about for those of us who don't want to sacrifice some of the ways of life that we have today?

看，这是一次很好的对话。让我先说到最坏的情况，然后再拉回来。假设智能眼镜不仅对消费者有用，对企业也非常有用。例如，企业可以让石油钻井平台上的操作员，我说我现在就要看他的摄像头画面。所以你有许多不同的应用，可以非常有用，可以教人们新技能，或者作为消费者可以帮助你，因为它看到你所看到的，并能实时与你互动。即将到来的 6G 转型的特征之一，就是把我们所有人都变成这个世界的行走摄像头。所以在这种情况下，你会说哇，最好来自一家值得信赖的公司，一个会尊重我私人选择的人。

Look, this is a great conversation. Let me go to the worst case scenario and then we bring it back. Let's assume that smart glasses are going to be useful devices not only for consumers but they could be very useful devices for enterprises. For example, an enterprise could have an operator in an oil rig and I'm going to say I'm just going to see his camera feed right now. So you have a bunch of different applications for this that can be very useful, can teach people new skills or can help you as a consumer because he sees what you see and can engage with you in real time. One of the features of the upcoming transition to 6G is transform all of us in walking cameras in this world. So now in that case you're going to say wow it's better be from a trusted company with somebody that's going to respect my private choices.

但作为一个人，你肯定知道坐在飞机上、在地铁上或吃饭时，注意到有人把手机转向你，那种感觉是什么样的。而你描述的世界是，这种情况一直发生在我们所有人身上。这完全不让你担心吗？

But as a human, surely you know the feeling of sitting on an airplane or being on a subway or being at dinner and you notice that someone's turned their phone at you and what that feels like. And the world you're describing is one where that's happening all the time to all of us. That doesn't concern you at all?

这是一个新兴的技术转型领域。我认为会有很多监管。这还处于早期。但我预计，隐私按定义将需要大量用户许可。然后还有很多事情有待决定，你将如何使用这项技术。这就是为什么我认为这些技术的采用可能会一个用例一个用例地来。

This is a nascent area of technology transition. I think there's going to be a lot of regulation. This is still early. But I expect that privacy by definition is going to require a lot of user permission. And then there's a lot of things yet to be decided how you're going to use this technology. That's why I think adoption of those things are probably going to be use case by use case.

对你来说，让高通被视为一家 AI 公司很重要吗？

Is it important for you for Qualcomm to be seen as an AI company?

我们不再只是一家通信公司。我们在做计算设备。我们拥有智能手机最快的处理器之一。我们进入了 PC 领域。我们在汽车中有令人难以置信的计算能力。汽车现在主要正在变成轮子上的计算机，我们将把计算扩展到数据中心。计算的未来是 AI。所以按定义，如果我们是一家计算公司，我们就会是一家 AI 公司。这些东西不再分离。

We are no more just a communications company. We're doing computing devices. We have one of the fastest processors for smartphones. We enter the PC space. We have an incredible amount of computing in car. The car is primarily now becoming a computer on wheels and we're going to extend our computing to the data center. The future of computing is AI. So by definition, if we're a computing company, we're going to be an AI company. Those things are no longer separate.

我觉得看你的露面，看其他公司的沟通，也许还有你与华尔街的对话，有一种压力要说：“嘿，我们也是一家 AI 公司。你应该看到这一点。”不是这样吗？

I feel watching your appearances, watching other companies communicating, maybe how you talk to Wall Street, a kind of pressure to say, "Hey, we're an AI company, too. You should see that." Is that not the case?

不，不是这样。绝对不是。我们创建了一项新业务，汽车业务。一开始投资者 100% 怀疑。哦，这是一个拥挤的空间。汽车领域有这么多玩家。你在汽车领域没有经验。我们现在将成为汽车领域最大的半导体供应商。我们刚刚将设计中标管道更新到 650 亿美元，我们现在有 60 亿美元的年化收入，我们将达到 100 亿美元。我们不需要说看看我们，我们是一家 AI 汽车公司。宝马高速公路自动驾驶现在在 60 个国家获得认证，运行在我们的 AAS 技术上，按定义就是 AI。辅助驾驶就是 AI。两年前在它流行之前我就说过。AI 将分布式运行。AI 将在边缘运行。我甚至说过抵抗是徒劳的。但对许多人来说，这可能被解读为看看高通，试图给他们的其他业务贴上 AI 标签，事实并非如此。它正在发生。

No, that's not the case. Absolutely not. We created a new business, the automotive business. Investors in the very beginning were 100% skeptical. Oh, this is a crowded space. There's so many players in the automotive. You have no experience in automotive. We're now going to be the largest provider semiconductor in automotive. We just updated our design win pipeline to $65 billion and we have a run rate now of $6 billion and we're going to go to $10 billion. We don't have the need to say look at us we are an AI automotive company. The BMW highway autopilot certified now in 60 countries run on our AAS tech that by definition is AI. Assisted driving is AI. I said this two years ago before it was popular. AI is going to be distributed. AI is going to run on the edge. I even said resistance is futile. And but to many that probably interpreted look at Qualcomm and try to apply an AI sticker to their other business, that's not the case. It's happening.

我想深入探讨一下公司的战略。一方面，你赞扬了边缘 AI，对吧？这是在本地设备（如手机）上运行 AI 的能力。另一方面，你似乎在对英伟达等公司发起重大挑战，让高通在云端运行 AI 的集中式计算中扮演更大角色。这是怎么回事？你能同时做这两件事吗？

I want to dig into the company's strategy there. On the one hand, you've praised Edge AI, right? This is the ability to run AI on local devices like your phone. On the other hand, you seem to be making significant challenges to companies like Nvidia and to give Qualcomm a bigger role in centralized compute running AI on the cloud. What's going on here? Can you do both these things at the same time?

是啊，为什么不呢？看，我回到公司战略。2021 年我成为 CEO 时，我们主要是一家移动公司。我说我们主要为手机提供骁龙处理器，为 iPhone 提供调制解调器。那是公司的主要业务。那是公司的大业务。我们说我们要迈出第一步。我们要使公司多元化，因为我们相信我们的技术可以颠覆边缘的一切。我们说我们要进军汽车、PC 领域，扩展到宽带，还要进入机器人，一切不在数据中心的东西。所以人们说：“嗯，这很多。你能优先考虑一个吗？”我说：“不，我们有技术做所有这些市场。”我们建立了汽车业务，我们在机器人和宽带领域开始占据非常好的位置，宽带现在是一个成熟的业务。

Yeah, why not? Look, I go back to the company strategy. When I became CEO in 2021, we were primarily a mobile company. I said primarily we provide Snapdragon as a processor for phones and provide a modem to iPhones. That was primarily the company's doing. That's the big business of the company. We said we're going to take this first step. We're going to diversify the company because we believe our technology can be disruptive to everything on the edge. And we said we're going to go after automotive, the PC space, going to expand into broadband and we're going to go into robotics, everything that is not in the data center. So people said, "Well, that's a lot. Can you prioritize one?" I said, "No, we have the technology to do all of those markets." We built an automotive business and we're starting to be very well positioned in robotics and in broadband is now a mature business.

所以下一步是我们将把 RP 扩展到数据中心。我认为令人兴奋的部分是，我们在所有这些不同业务中都有技术趋势和增长。而且我们做到这一点时没有损害公司的营业利润率。所以如果我们能做到所有这些，为什么不做呢？

So the next thing is we're going to extend RP to the data center. And I think the exciting part is we have technology trends and growth in all of those different businesses. And we did this without compromising the operating margin of the company. So if we can do all of this, why not do it?

而对于那些持怀疑态度的人，他们说这不是关于信心和转型，而是对你现有商业模式的恐惧，这是关于日益萎缩的手机移动业务，高通必须通过创新来摆脱困境。

And to the skeptic who says this isn't about confidence and transformation, it's about fear over your existing business model, that this is about a dwindling handset mobile business and Qualcomm has to invent its way out of it.

这是我经常被问到的问题。高通有哪些东西使这成为可能？我首先说第一点是我们令人难以置信的工程能力和技术能力，使我们能够应对非常复杂的技术挑战，而且对于我们做的很多事情，我们很多技术都是自己开发的。第二点是文化，这种角斗士文化，这种专注于使命的文化非常重要。第三点是我们习惯于应对残酷的竞争环境。残酷。所以我们学会了如何竞争。我们在高度竞争的环境中生存下来。我认为这三件事结合在一起，为我们现在所做的事情奠定了基础。

It's a question that I often get asked. What are the things at Qualcomm that make this possible? And I'll start with the number one is our incredible engineering capability and technology capability that allow us to take very complex technical challenges and for a lot of the things that we do we develop a lot of technologies ourselves. The second thing is the culture and this culture of gladiator, this culture of focus on the mission is very important. The number three thing is we are used to dealing with a brutal competitive environment. Brutal. So we learn how to compete. We survive in highly competitive environments. And I think that those three things combined set the foundation for us to do those things we're doing right now.

说到对失败的恐惧，你下的赌注之一是在自动驾驶汽车上。如果那里的成功比你想象的更遥远，对高通来说意味着什么？

Speaking of fear of failure, one of the bets you're making is on autonomous vehicles. What would it mean to Qualcomm if that the success there was further into the future than you think it's going to be?

嗯，不。我认为我们正在实现。重要的是要理解我们做出的一些赌注。首先，我们提供芯片。我们为自动驾驶汽车提供处理器，并且我们与任何人的堆栈合作。那个业务现在正在扩张。你必须有一个非常节能的处理器。花了几年时间才达到这一点。但我认为技术成熟度水平是，我们现在距离实现端到端的监督式自动驾驶还有几年时间。

Um no. I think we're getting there. Important to understand some of the bets that we made. First of all, we provide silicon. We provide processor for autonomous vehicles and we work with anybody's stack. That business is scaling right now. You have to have a very power efficient processor. It took several years to get to this point. But I think the level of technology maturity is we're now few years away for having address to address supervised self-driving.

几年是什么意思？

What does a few years mean?

2028 年，你应该预期对于高端汽车来说，那是基本要求。

2028, you should expect that for a premium car that's table stakes.

你最近陪同特朗普总统参加了与中国国家主席习近平的会晤。这次旅行告诉你半导体供应链的未来是什么？

You recently accompanied President Trump to his meetings with Chinese President Xi Jinping. What did the trip tell you about the future of the semiconductor supply chain?

这是一次很棒的旅行。我感到荣幸能成为被邀请的小型 CEO 团体的一员。有一个公式，是关于与中国成功进行贸易的公司以及实际扩大贸易关系的机会。我认为我们一直走在正确的贸易方向上。我也相信我们与中国同行之间的强大贸易关系是有价值的，因为这些关系实际上在对话中起到了稳定的力量。我对这次旅行感到乐观。向中国公司提供半导体和美国技术栈是有价值的。他们有一个全球业务。作为一家多元化公司，我们在中国的业务没有受到限制。我们在中国的业务从手机扩展到电脑、汽车、工业甚至机器人，但话虽如此，我认为像任何其他半导体公司一样，你必须监控这个领域并适应。

It was a great trip. I felt privileged to be able to be part of the small group of CEOs that got invited. There was a formula which is about companies that have successfully done trade with China and the opportunity to actually expand I think the trade relationship. I think we always been on the right direction of trade. I also believe there is value in the strong trade relationships between us and our Chinese counterparts because those relationships actually serve as a force of stability in the dialogue. I came out of the trip optimistic. There's value in providing semiconductors and American technology stack to companies in China. They have a global business. We have not been restricted for the business we do in China as a diversified company. Our business in China expanded from phones to computers to automotive to industrial even robotics and but having said that I think like any other semiconductor company you have to monitor the space and you have to adapt.

有报道称你正在洽谈向字节跳动、TikTok 的母公司出售芯片。如果你向中国公司出售先进芯片，美国人应该担心吗？

There are reports that you're in talks to sell chips to ByteDance, TikTok's parent company. Should Americans be concerned if you sell advanced chips to Chinese companies?

看，对此不予置评，但我要告诉你这一点。现在芯片无处不在。芯片存在于每个消费电子设备、汽车、家电和一切事物中。美国公司有很大的价值，向不仅是中国，还有其他为世界制造产品的经济体提供技术。如果我让人们回答以下问题，这个陈述就很容易理解。你喜欢美国技术为美国服务，还是你喜欢美国技术为世界服务？

Look, not commenting on this, but I'm going to tell you this. Chips are in everything right now. Chips are in every consumer electronic device and in cars and appliances and everything. There's a lot of value in the United States companies and to provide the technology to economies not only in China, other economies that make things for the world. It is pretty easy to understand statement when if I ask people to answer the following question. Do you like America technology for America or you like America technology for the world?

这就是我们现在正在进行的辩论，对吧？你把它呈现得好像有一个显而易见的选择，但有很多声音会不同意你。

That's a debate we're having now, right? You present it as if there's one obvious choice, but there are lots of voices that would disagree with you.

看，归根结底，这只是数学。你只需看看全球经济，看看对 GDP 的贡献，我会稍微不同地回答这个问题。每家规模化的半导体公司都有半个百分点的中国业务，这只是 GDP 的函数。美国是世界上最大的 GDP。中国是第二大 GDP，然后中国有很多公司，包括美国公司和其他欧洲公司、日本公司和韩国公司在中国制造产品。所以随着制造业在地理上变得更加多样化，这是一件好事。有很多举措将制造业带回美国，实现地理多样化。这是一件非常好的事情。但你也必须退后一步，看看世界经济是如何运作的。你有这种有趣的动态。你可能向一家欧洲公司销售产品，或者你可以向一家日本公司销售产品，日本公司会在中国制造那个产品。所以很容易在背景下看待这些数字。我认为现实是现在每家领先的半导体公司在中国都有业务曝光，这是一件好事。美国和中国之间存在竞争。所以有一场辩论，这不是我们的工作去辩论。我认为我们一直专注于开发技术，关于是否有某些应用的关键技术，你有出口管制，这是行业长期以来的现实。没有什么新东西，我认为这继续是辩论的一部分，我认为半导体公司只是调整以适应我们必须遵循的政策。

Look, at the end of the day, it's just math. You just look at the global economy, you look at the contribution to GDP, and I'll answer the question a little bit different. Every semiconductor company that has scale has half a percent of China business and it's just a function of GDP. The United States is the biggest GDP in the world. China is the second GDP and then China has a lot of the companies including American companies and other European companies and Japanese companies and Korean companies that make things in China. So this as manufacturing becomes more geographically diversified and that's a good thing. There's a lot of initiatives to bring manufacturing back in America to geographically diversify. That's a very good thing. But you also have to step back and you look how the world economy works. You have this interesting dynamic. You may sell a product to a European company and then or you can sell a product to a Japanese company and the Japanese company will manufacture that product in China. So it's very easy to look at those numbers within context. I think the reality is every leading semiconductor company right now has exposure in business in China and that's a good thing. There is competition between the United States and China. So there is a debate which is not our job to debate. I think we've been focused on developing the technology about are there certain enabling technologies for certain applications that you have export control and this has been a reality of the industry for a long time. There's nothing new and I think that continues to be part of the debate and I think the semiconductor companies just adjust to the policy we have to follow.

好的，我们谈话接近尾声，所以我想做我们在 CEO 时刻对所有嘉宾做的事情，我们称之为领导力测试。我会问你一系列问题。给我你脑海中浮现的第一个答案。你做过的最好的暑期工作是什么？

All right, we're at the tail end of our conversation, so I'd like to do what we do with all of our guests on the CEO moment, which is what we call the leadership test. I'm going to ask you a series of questions. Give me your first answer that comes to mind. What's the best summer job you ever had?

有趣的是。美国的夏天有点

It's interesting. Summer in America was kind of

我想是你最好的冬季工作。

Your best winter job, I suppose.

我最好的冬季工作，这与我的为人以及我如何思考包括我的未来有很大关系。我最好的冬季工作是每个冬天我妈妈会把我送到巴西不同州的亲戚农场，我和我的表弟在农场工作。所以我会挤牛奶，我会骑马去赶牛。我会喂猪，那是一份很棒的冬季工作。

My best winter job and it has a lot to do with how I am and how I think about including my future. My best winter job is every winter my mom will send me to my relatives farms in a different state in Brazil and I work in the farm with my cousin. So I will milk the cows, I will go get the cows on horses. I'll feed the pig and that was a great winter job.

你太常使用的一句话是什么？

What's the phrase you use too often?

信任但验证。

Trust but verify.

你有多少直接下属？

How many direct reports do you have?

我一时想不起来。

Don't know for the top of my head.

我想大概在 10 到 15 之间的某个数字。

I think some number between probably 10 and 15.

你什么时候感觉最专注？

When do you feel most focused?

开车的时候。

Driving.

你什么时候不看手机？

When are you not checking your phone?

睡觉的时候。

Sleeping.

你通勤要多少分钟？

How many minutes is your commute?

15 分钟。

15.

你每晚睡几个小时？

How many hours of sleep a night do you get?

能睡到七个小时我就很开心了。平均大概六个小时吧。

I'm happy when I get seven. I think it's kind of six is the average.

你被解雇过吗？

Have you ever been fired?

没有。

No.

你咖啡点什么？

What's your coffee order?

黑咖啡，不加糖。

Black. No sugar.

你一天开多少个会？

How many meetings a day do you have?

非常多。

A ton.

非常多是多少？

What's a ton?

从我开始上班一直到必须结束的时候。会非常多。有些会我其实不必参加——我经常抱怨我需要一些时间，我需要回邮件，我需要从会议里脱身。但会议实在太多了，我们有很浓厚的会议文化。

From the day I start until when we have to end. It's a lot. Some I don't have — I often complain that I need some time. I need to respond to email. I need to get out of the meeting. But there's a lot of meetings. We have a big meeting culture.

你在每次面试中都会问的那个问题是什么？

What's the one question you ask in every job interview?

有意思。最近问得更多了。我想我会问这个问题：你明白这份工作是什么吗？成功在你看来是什么样子？

Interesting. More lately. I think I will ask the question: do you understand what the job is? What does success look like to you?

你上一次改变想法是什么时候？

When did you last change your mind?

昨天。

Yesterday.

Cristiano，非常感谢你参加《CEO 时刻》。我们真的很感激你的到来。

Cristiano, thank you very much for joining the CEO moment. We really appreciate having you.

不，我很高兴能来，也谢谢你的这次对谈。

No, I'm happy to be here and thank you for the conversation.