高通 CEO 克里斯蒂亚诺·安蒙谈 5G、骁龙与移动计算的未来

有些人担心，关于 5G 对人体影响的研究还不够多。5G 安全吗？

Some people raise concerns about there not being enough studies about the effects of 5G on the human body. Is 5G safe?

以下是与高通 CEO 克里斯蒂亚诺·安蒙的对话。高通是全球移动通信和计算领域的领导者之一，其 2G、3G、4G 和 5G 技术连接了数十亿部手机，而骁龙处理器和片上系统则是世界上大多数高端安卓手机的大脑。这是 Lex Fridman 播客。为了支持它，请查看描述中的赞助商。现在，亲爱的朋友们，有请克里斯蒂亚诺·安蒙。

The following is a conversation with Cristiano Amon, the CEO of Qualcomm, the company that's one of the leaders in the world in the space of mobile communication and computation. That's 2G, 3G, 4G and 5G that connects billions of phones and the Snapdragon processor and system on a chip that is the brain of most of the premium Android phones in the world. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, dear friends, here's Cristiano Amon.

你来自巴西，所以让我问最重要的问题、最深刻的问题、最大的问题：有史以来最伟大的足球运动员是谁？

You are originally from Brazil, so let me ask the most important question, the most profound question, the biggest question: who's the greatest football soccer player of all time?

看，大家都会说贝利。其实我出生在巴西对意大利的那场比赛期间，那场比赛让巴西夺冠了。我爸爸告诉我，医生在产房里开着电视。所以大家都会说贝利，但我真的很喜欢罗纳尔多，第一个罗纳尔多。哦，第一个罗纳尔多。我真的很喜欢他。那是我最喜欢的球员。

Look, everybody's going to say Pelé. And actually, I was born during the game of Brazil and Italy that gave Brazil the championship. Actually, my dad tells me that the doctor had a TV on at the delivery room. But so everybody will say Pelé, but I really like Ronaldo, the first one. Oh, the first Ronaldo. I really like him. That's my favorite player.

顺便说一句，不是每个人都会说贝利。是的，但我们可以保留这个分歧，同意各自保留意见。巴西人会说贝利。是的，那个地区的其他国家绝对有点不同意。

By the way, not everybody would say Pelé. Yes, but we shall leave that on the table and agree to disagree. Brazilians will say Pelé. Yes, there's other countries around that region absolutely disagree a little bit.

我很清楚高通在很大程度上负责了 5G 和我们智能手机中一些有史以来最伟大的处理器。所以我们有通信和计算技术，可能影响了数十亿人。所以如果你拉远视角，作为一个人，我们看看地球上的人类，数十亿部智能手机在通信，每部都有计算能力，你知道，你说过 100 亿个晶体管，那是 50 年前世界上最好的计算机的一百万倍，这让你感到震撼吗？就像你作为一个人拉远视角，这让你震撼吗？

I'm very aware Qualcomm is largely responsible for 5G and some of the greatest processors in our smartphones ever built. So we got communication and computation tech that impacts probably billions of people. So if you zoom out, use a human, we look at humans on earth in general, does it blow your mind that we have these billions of smartphones communicating and each of them have the computational power, you know, you talk about 10 billion transistors, that's a million times more than 50 years ago in the best computers in the world? Like if you just zoom out as a human, does that blow your mind?

绝对震撼。看，我认为我爱这家公司的原因之一是我们知道我们开发的技术可以改变世界。我还要告诉你一件事：除了你现在手掌中的处理能力以及世界上每个人都能通过宽带技术连接之外，智能手机也是人类最大的开发平台。没有什么能与之相比。

Absolutely. Look, one of the reasons I think I love this company is that we know that the technology we develop can change the world. And I'll tell you one more thing: beyond the amount of processing power that you have now in the palm of your hands and being everyone in the world connected with broadband technology, the smartphone is also mankind's largest development platform. There's nothing like it.

所以你尊重硬件和软件两者？

So you respect both the hardware and the software?

两者都是。

Both.

如果外星人在过去 50 到 70 年里观察地球，你认为他们会如何描述我们生活的这个小小星球表面发生的这些动荡和有趣的事情？

If aliens were observing Earth over the past 50 to 70 years, how do you think they would describe this particular turmoil, fun things going on on the surface of this particular little planet we live in?

有趣的时代。一方面，我们看到人类技术的惊人发展，就像上个世纪发生的那样。你知道，从 1900 年到 2000 年的那个夜晚，那是令人难以置信的发展。看看，20 年前，我们走了多远，我们在技术上要走向哪里。这太不可思议了。

Interesting times. At one time we see incredible development of technology for mankind, just what happened in the last century. You know, the night from 1900 to 2000, it was incredible development. Just look, 20 years ago, how far we're coming and where are we going with technology. It's incredible.

你认为他们会注意到什么？有道路网络，有各种网络，有不断亮起的灯光，城市在崛起。就像从外星人的视角，你在观察……

What do you think they would notice? So there's road networks, there's all kinds of networks, there's lights that keep popping up, cities bringing up. Like from an alien perspective, you're observing...

我要告诉你的是，你看到这种对比：技术惊人发展，但然后你看到现在正在发生的一些事情，可能你不会预料到它们会在 21 世纪发生，就像乌克兰发生的事情。所以我认为对外星人来说，那将是一个更令人困惑的问题，我想。

What I'm going to tell you is you have this contrast of incredible development of technology, but then you see some of the things that are happening right now which is probably you would not expect them to happen on the 21st century, just what happened in Ukraine. So I think that will be a more puzzling question for the aliens, I would imagine.

新技术其实挺令人印象深刻的。那可能并不那么令人困惑，因为那只是人性在展现自己，就像在整个人类历史中一样。

The new technology is kind of impressive actually. That might not be so puzzling because that's just human nature revealing itself as it has throughout human history.

没错。

That's correct.

我们来谈谈无线通信。高通在开发 5G 方面发挥了重要作用。你从早期就在高通，也就是美好的 90 年代 2G 时期。但什么是 5G，包括 sub-6 GHz 5G 和毫米波 5G？它如何工作？也许最重要的问题是：它将在未来几年如何改变世界？

Let's talk about wireless communication. So Qualcomm was instrumental in developing 5G. Now you were with Qualcomm since the early days, the good old 90s with the 2G. But what is 5G, including sub-6 gigahertz 5G and millimeter wave 5G? How does it work? And maybe the most important question is: how will it change the world in the coming years?

当我们着手开发 5G 时，你知道我们看这个问题，每一代技术都有一个要解决的问题，对吧？所以你提到了 2G。CDMA 的挑战是：我们能否给地球上的每个人一部手机？那就是：你能否找到一种技术，基本上让每个人都能拥有移动电话？3G 是关于将其连接到互联网的能力。我认为 4G 是宽带，4G 是关于让你有能力在手掌中拥有一台电脑，我们刚刚谈过这个。5G 的挑战有点不同：我们如何为一个将 100% 连接到云的社会构建技术？我们如何提供将成为一切事物的最后一英里连接的技术？所以 5G 基本上被设计来消除所有数据拥塞问题，无论你是在体育场——我们谈论足球——你在体育场，每个人都应该能够访问宽带。所以处理拥塞，处理不仅人而且数十亿事物需要连接的事实，创造一种技术，在无线领域首次可以提供关键任务服务。无线在 4G 之前一直是最好的努力。在 5G 中，它可以保证你与云的连接。然后最后一点是提供这种结构，使我们作为一个社会能够看待未连接的事物并说那是例外。这就是为什么我们在 5G 早期做了比较，说那将像电一样。现在你不会讨论电的用例是什么，你不再谈论那个了，你只是假设它在那里。这就是我们思考一切连接到云的方式。这就是 5G，这就是 5G 的角色。

When we set ourselves to develop 5G, and you know we look at this, every generation of technology had a problem to be solved, right? So you mentioned 2G. The challenge of CDMA was: can we give every person on earth a cell phone? That was: can you get to a technology that you can basically allow everyone to have a mobile phone? 3G was about the ability to connect that to the internet. I think 4G was broadband, and with 4G was about having the ability for you to have a computer in the palm of your hand, we just talked about that. 5G, the challenge was a little bit different: how do we build a technology for a society that is going to be 100% connected to the cloud? How do we provide the technology that is going to be the last mile connectivity for everything? So 5G has basically been designed to eliminate all issues with data congestion, whether you are in a stadium—we talk about soccer—you're in a stadium and everyone should be able to have access to broadband. So deal with congestion, deal with the fact that not only people but billions of things need to be connected, create a technology that for the first time in wireless you could deliver mission-critical services. Wireless used to, up to 4G, be its best effort. In 5G it can guarantee that you're connected with the cloud. And then the last point of that is provide this fabric that will allow us as a society to look at things that are not connected and say that's the exception. That's why we made the comparison in the early days of 5G that that's going to be like electricity. Right now you don't have a discussion about what is the use cases for electricity, you don't talk about that anymore, you just assume it's there. And that's how we're thinking about everything connected to the cloud. That's what 5G is and that's the role of 5G.

首先，一切连接到云很有趣，因为“一切”的范围在不断增加。这不对吗？你知道，我不认为那边的冰箱，它看起来有点智能，但我不认为它已经连接到云。所以这包括物联网。‘一切’的完整范围是什么？

So first of all, everything connected to the cloud is interesting because the space of everything is constantly increasing. That isn't correct? You know, I don't think the refrigerator over there, it looks kind of smart but I don't think it's connected yet to the cloud. So this includes internet of things. What is the full space of everything?

‘一切’的完整范围是——也许回到你开始定义高通的地方——高通是关于低功耗设备的通信和先进计算机。我们能否让一切变得智能？你知道，它可以范围从你现在地板上的机器人到……

The full space of everything is—maybe going back to where you start defining Qualcomm—Qualcomm is about communications and advanced computers for low-power devices. And can we make everything smart? You know, it can range from the robot you have right now on the floor to...

当我们想到像去杂货店买东西这样简单的事情，现在就能看到技术——我们一直在和沃尔玛这样的公司合作的东西：电子货架标签，还有智能摄像头，它们能看着货架，聪明到能判断某个商品需要补货。所以本质上就是把处理器、连接性和人工智能赋予一切事物。我认为这是我们技术领域最大的可寻址市场之一，因为你其实没法真正定义“一切”，对吧？

So when we think of something as simple as going to the grocery shop, we now see technology — the stuff we've been working on with companies like Walmart: electronic shelf labels, the ability to have smart cameras that can look at shelves and are smart enough to say some product needs to be replenished. So it's really about providing processors, connectivity, and artificial intelligence to everything. I think that's one of the largest addressable markets we have for technology, because you can't really define everything, right?

没错。这是个好市场，因为它一直在增长，速度上可能是指数级的。那覆盖呢——“一切”这部分我们做得怎么样？

Exactly. It's a nice market because it keeps growing, potentially exponentially in speed. What about coverage — how are we doing on the “everything” part?

就像我提到的，有 sub-6 吉赫兹的 5G，也有毫米波的 5G。不是所有 5G 都一样——有速度的问题、带宽的问题，还有覆盖的问题。今天有多少人能享受到？未来 5 年、10 年、20 年、30 年、50 年，覆盖方面的进展你觉得会是什么样？

So, like I mentioned, there's sub-6 gigahertz 5G and there's millimeter wave 5G. Not all 5G is made the same — there's a speed thing, there's a bandwidth thing, and then there's coverage. How many people get to enjoy it today, and how does progress look over the next 5, 10, 20, 30, 50 years in terms of coverage?

很好的话题，很好的对话。那我们就聊聊这个。当我在全球各地会见监管者时，我告诉他们：抵抗是徒劳的——把每一段频谱都分配给无线。每一段频谱都需要分配给无线。

Great topic, great conversation. So let's talk about this. When I meet with regulators across the globe, I tell them: resistance is futile — allocate every spectrum to wireless. Every spectrum needs to be allocated to wireless.

现实是，当我们开始从 CDMA 转向 OFDMA 时，我们就知道这个行业已经做了很多来提升每赫兹的比特数。但现实是，容量和速度所需的巨大提升——你需要更多频谱。我们不能太依赖每赫兹更多比特，你就是需要更多频谱。

The reality is, when we started moving from CDMA to OFDMA, we knew this industry has done a lot to get more bits per hertz. But the reality is the massive amount of improvement required in capacity and in speed — you need more spectrum. There's not so much we can rely on more bits per hertz; you just need more spectrum.

举个例子，看看运营商自 2G 时代以来的做法——他们参与不同的牌照和拍卖，从 2G、3G、4G 积累的所有频谱，你最多可能拿到一两个 sub-6 的信道，一个信道大约 100 兆赫兹或 200 兆赫兹，就这些。所以我们需要更多频谱。

And if you look, for example, at what carriers have done since the 2G era — they participate in different licenses and auctions, and every spectrum they accumulated from 2G or 3G or 4G, all of that, you may be able to get one or two channels max of sub-6, where a channel is about 100 megahertz or 200 megahertz, and that's it. So we need more spectrum.

所以 5G 被设计成能在所有频谱上工作，从低频段——我们称之为 sub-6——但你需要更多，你需要走向毫米波。这就是为什么 5G 是一项可以从 450 兆赫兹，比如 600 或 700，一直部署到 42 吉赫兹的技术，毫米波就是在这里登场的。

So 5G has been designed to work across every spectrum, from the low frequency bands — what we call sub-6 — but you needed more, you needed to go to millimeter wave. That's why 5G is a technology you can deploy from 450 megahertz, for example, or 600 or 700, all the way to 42 gigahertz, and that's where millimeter wave comes into the picture.

现在把这个和你关于 5G 覆盖的问题连起来。最容易的做法是在你能拿到的新频谱里部署 5G，也就是 sub-6——你会看到全球各地在拍卖 3.5 吉赫兹的频段。这个频段没什么特别的，只是它是唯一可用的，因为其他都被 4G 占着。你可以在那上面部署，用现有的基站，换上新设备，不用建新塔。

Now let's connect this to your question about 5G coverage. The easiest thing to do is deploy 5G in the new spectrum you can get, which is in sub-6 — you see bands being auctioned across the globe in 3.5 gigahertz. There's nothing special about the band; it's just the only one available, because everything else is being used for 4G. You can deploy on that, go into existing cell towers, and just put new equipment without having to build new towers.

但当我们采用毫米波这样的技术时，你就必须建更密集的网络，需要建更多站点，因为那种情况下的部署看起来像 Wi-Fi 部署——几乎就像 Wi-Fi 接入点。当你需要建更多站点时，你需要许可，需要铺光纤，所以密集化要花更多时间。

But when we go to technology such as millimeter wave, then you have to build more dense networks, you need to build more stations, because the deployment in that case looks like a Wi-Fi deployment — it's almost like Wi-Fi access points. When you need to build more stations, you need permits, you need to build fiber, so it takes more time to densify.

所以你看到的是，全球范围内用 sub-6 快速建起了覆盖。美国也有 sub-6，所以覆盖来得非常快。但毫米波在推进，我要说，比如美国的 Verizon 在建设毫米波方面一直领先。这需要时间——芝加哥、曼哈顿这样的城市开始有覆盖了。随着你建那些不同的接入点型网络，这会是一个持续数年的过程。但这是不可避免的——频谱不够，所以每个 5G 运营商，只是时间问题，也都会有毫米波。抵抗是徒劳的。

So what you see happening is coverage has been built fast with sub-6 across the globe. Now the United States also has sub-6, so that gets you coverage very fast. But millimeter wave is moving, and I will say, for example, Verizon in the United States has had leadership in building millimeter wave. It takes time — cities like Chicago, Manhattan are starting to get coverage. It will be a process over a number of years as you build those different access-point-type networks. But it's inevitable — there's not enough spectrum, so every 5G operator, it's just a matter of time, will have millimeter wave as well. Resistance is futile.

好，所以毫米波需要接入点的密度。那对高通——对人类文明来说，最大的阻力是什么？是政客、监管者、联邦监管机构？是个人？还是从消费者角度看钱不够？从高通的立场看，谁是最让人头疼的？

Okay, so for millimeter wave we need density of access points. And what's the biggest resistance for Qualcomm — for human civilization? Is it politicians, regulators, federal regulators? Is it individual humans? Is it not enough money from the consumer perspective? Like, who is the biggest pain in the butt from a Qualcomm standpoint?

但回答建设所有这些技术需要什么的问题——我认为各方的监管者都理解 5G 的重要性。我没遇到过哪个监管者说“在 5G 上落后很重要”。我不认为有人想在 5G 上落后。因此，我们在把频谱分配给 5G 方面看到了巨大的进展。

But answering the question about what it takes to build all this technology — I think regulators across the board understood the importance of 5G. I have not met a regulator that said it's really important to be late on 5G. I don't think anybody wants to be late on 5G. And as a result, we've seen an enormous amount of progress in getting spectrum allocated to 5G.

我认为真正的问题是建设基础设施所需的时间。对 5G 基础设施的投资，尤其是毫米波，就像修路和建港口——这是关键基础设施，而这些事需要时间。你会从运营商那里听到的头号障碍之一就是许可——有时他们得一个市一个市地谈许可，才能建新基站。但网络会密集化，而你需要所有这些容量，才能实现完全沉浸式增强现实的承诺——那将取代手机，让一切事物 100% 的时间都保持连接。

I think the real issue is the time it takes to build infrastructure. Investment in 5G infrastructure, especially millimeter wave, is like building roads and ports — it's critical infrastructure, and those things take time. One of the number one obstacles you're going to hear from operators is the permit — sometimes they have to negotiate municipality by municipality about permits to get new cell sites. But the networks will be densified, and you're going to need all of that capacity for the promise of fully immersive augmented reality that will replace phones, and everything being connected 100% of the time.

如果我不问一些让你紧张的问题，这就不是一次和 CEO 的对话了。有些人担心，关于 5G 对人体影响的研究还不够多。5G 安全吗？

This would not be a conversation with the CEO if I did not ask questions that make you nervous. Some people raise concerns about there not being enough studies about the effects of 5G on the human body. Is 5G safe?

你看，我对这个问题有个很简单的回答。当我们构建 5G 这样的新能力时，功率是在下降的——尤其当你考虑减少基站数量时；网络变得更密集，所以这样做时，功率变得更低。手机和基站辐射出的功率——当你离基站更近时，你不需要那么多功率就能连到基站。所以当我们从 4G 走向 5G，我认为我们看到的是闭合无线链路所需功率的减少。

Look, I have a very simple answer to this question. As we build new capabilities such as 5G, power is going down — especially when you think about reducing the number of base stations; the network's becoming more dense, so as you do that, the power becomes lower. The power radiated from the phone and from the tower — as you get closer to the tower, you don't need that much power to reach the tower. So as we move from 4G to 5G, I think we see a reduction in the amount of power required to close the radio link.

另外，你还有一些组织——比如 FCC 有严格的程序，他们做大量测试来验证这些设备的安全性，我认为我们一直是其他国家效仿的榜样。蜂窝技术已经存在几十年了。我认为智能手机是我们今天最钟爱的设备，我要说，这些问题很难回答，因为——是啊，但我要说，迄今为止的数据，我们在 3G 和 4G 中看到的，已经表明很多最初的担忧并不成立。

Now also, you have a number of organizations — the FCC, for example, has rigorous programs where they do a lot of tests to validate the safety of those devices, and I think we have been a model for other countries to adopt the same things. Cellular has been around for a number of decades now. I think the smartphone is our most beloved device today, and I would argue it's difficult to answer those questions because — yeah, but I'll argue that the data to date, what we've seen in 3G and 4G, has shown that a lot of the initial concerns were not valid.

我们看 5G——尽管它是新的，但功率只是更低。所以我们从物理学角度看，从生物学角度看，有大量证据，有研究表明它不危险，事实上是安全的。

We look at 5G — even though it's new, it's just less power. So we look at it from a physics standpoint, and from a biology perspective there's a lot of evidence, there are studies that show that it's not dangerous, that it is in fact safe.

然而，人们担心的是：当你以指数级扩展技术时，那会如何改变人类文明？

However, the concern that people have is: when you scale technology exponentially, how would that change human civilization?

这不适用于 5G；这适用于每一项技术。你说智能手机是最受喜爱的设备，但爱有时会带来伤害。这就是对社会的影响——我们不知道，而且有一点恐惧。既有兴奋也有恐惧。这是一个很好的话题，实际上是一场对话。

That doesn't apply to 5G; that applies to every technology. You said smartphone is the most beloved device, but love sometimes hurts. That's the impact on society—we don't know, and there's a little bit of fear. There's both excitement and fear. It's a great topic, a conversation actually.

那么让我给你我的看法。你现在开始看到一些事情正在发生。让我退一步，谈谈我们处于一个完全互联的社会这一事实。当你审视今天的状况，我们谈论智能手机——最大的开发平台，我们生活的很大一部分。我们与智能手机相连，因此我们所有人都连接在一起，然后我们正在构建万物的数字孪生，对吧？所以当你看到这个互联社会的图景时，你开始有以下想法，我认为这些想法非常健康。就像在物理世界中你享有某些权利、承担义务，有很多东西保护你的完整性一样，我认为作为规则，我们将看到社会演变，使这些事物延伸到你的数字存在——人和物的数字存在。我认为这很自然；这只是一条自然的路径。你开始看到类似的事情。例如，欧洲人在这方面做了很多。我要说，欧洲人在思考隐私法、数字隐私法方面可能领先于美国，最近的是 DMA，即《数字市场法案》，我认为这是一件好事。我们相信，在赋能监管数字市场的能力方面有着不可思议的思考，以便有创新和竞争，而不是让一家公司控制所有数据，然后决定数字领域的事情如何运作。即使我们考虑像元宇宙这样的潜力，我们正在连接物理和数字空间。所以我认为这是自然的演变。当然，监管和法律总是跟随技术，但我们正在走向互联社会这一事实——没有回头路。我们是一个完全互联的社会，但有机会思考数字孪生应该是什么样——人们和政府应该思考它，以便我们获得技术的最佳效果而没有任何缺点。

So let me give you my perspective on this. You started to see something exactly happening right now. So let me step back and let's talk about the fact that we are in a fully interconnected society. When you look at the situation today, we talk about smartphones—the largest development platform, so much of our life. We are connected to the smartphone, and as a result, we are all connected, and then we're building digital twins of everything, right? So when you look at that picture of this connected society, you started to have the following thoughts, which I think are very healthy. In the same way that in the physical world you're entitled to some rights, you have obligations, and there are a lot of things that protect your integrity, I think as a rule we're going to see society evolving so those things extend to your digital being—of people and things. And I think it's just natural; it's just a natural path. And you started to see things like that. For example, the Europeans have done a lot in this area. I'll say the Europeans are probably ahead of the United States in thinking about privacy laws, digital privacy laws, most recently the DMA, the Digital Markets Act, which I think is a great thing. We believe there's incredible thought in enabling the ability to regulate the digital markets so that there's innovation and competition, and not a single company can control all the data and then decide how things are going to work in the digital realm. And even if we think about the potential of things like the metaverse, we're connecting physical and digital spaces. So I think it's a natural evolution. Of course, regulation and laws always follow technology, but the fact that we're moving to our interconnected society—there's no going back. We are a fully interconnected society, but there is opportunity to think about how the digital twin should be—people and government should think about it so that we get the best of technology without any downside.

所以当你说数字孪生时，那是你兴奋的另一件事，也就是元宇宙——基本上是在数字空间中构建世界。你必须开始思考所有基本人权如何从我们的物理肉体转移到我们自己的数字副本、我们自己的表征上。思考你提到的关于监管者的事情真的很重要。这一直是——这是我说的——令人沮丧的。就像你说的，他们跟随技术，所以有时他们根本不理解技术，因此他们在编写以有趣方式审查技术的法律时非常笨拙。他们本意是好的，但他们可能造成很多意外损害。现在，两者——这是一支舞，一支美丽的舞，但我只是希望政府是更好的舞伴。我刚刚看到他们现在写的关于监管社交媒体和像 YouTube 这样的平台的内容，真的非常非常笨拙。他们不理解机器学习如何工作，推荐系统如何工作，我只是希望他们能稍微跟上一些，因为擅长监管真的很重要，但让公司蓬勃发展并拥抱这一新技术浪潮也很重要。那种奇怪的舞蹈——我越来越多地学习、观察公共政策，政府能做的积极事情有多少，以及它可能无意中造成多少笨拙的负面效果，仅仅出于纯粹的无能或对技术缺乏好奇心。这就是我对监管者的抱怨。

So when you say digital twin, that's one of the other things you're excited about, which is the metaverse—basically building worlds in the digital space. And you have to start to think about all the basic human rights that transfer from our physical meat vehicles out to the digital copies of ourselves, representations of ourselves. It's really important to think about the thing you mentioned about regulators. That has been—this is me speaking—frustrating. Like you said, they follow technology, so sometimes they don't get the technology at all, so they're very clumsy in writing laws that censor that technology in interesting ways. They mean well, but they can do a lot of unintended damage. Now, both—it's a dance, it's a beautiful dance, but I just wish governments were better dance partners. I just see what they're kind of writing now about regulating social media and platforms like YouTube, and it's just really, really clumsy. They don't understand how machine learning works, how recommender systems work, and I just wish they kind of caught up a little more, because it's really important to be great at regulation, but also it's important to let companies flourish and embrace this new wave of technology. That weird dance—I am more and more learning, looking at public policy, how much positive government can do and how much clumsy negative it can do unintentionally, just out of sheer incompetence or lack of curiosity about tech. That's my rant about regulators.

我认为这是一个合理的观点。正如我之前所说，我认为欧洲人可能有一个非常好的框架。但我的思考方式是：我们依赖于创新能力，我们依赖于自由市场，我们依赖于创造具有颠覆性的技术的能力。但在某个时候，我认为科技公司可能应该花时间帮助政府理解，帮助他们提前理解，以便他们能更好地准备。

I think it's a valid point. As I said before, I think the Europeans probably have a very good framework. But the way I think about it: we depend on the ability to innovate, we depend on free markets, we depend on the ability to create technology that would be disruptive. But at some time, I think tech companies probably should spend time helping governments understand, helping them understand ahead of time so that they can be better prepared.

让我们谈谈我最喜欢的话题之一：骁龙。骁龙是一个系统级芯片。这款处理器在其相当长的历史中——可能长达十五年——可能已经为数十亿部智能手机提供动力。所以它不断迭代；不断有美丽的创新在涌动。所以去年主要是采用 5 纳米工艺的骁龙 888，而今年是骁龙 8 Gen 1。

Let's talk about one of my favorite topics: Snapdragon. So Snapdragon is a system on a chip. This processor has probably powered billions of smartphones over its pretty long history now—a decade and a half maybe. So it's constantly iterating; there's constantly just like a turmoil of beautiful innovations happening. So last year was Snapdragon 888 as the main one with the 5 nanometer, and this year it's Snapdragon 8 Gen 1.

这是一个新的命名方案，好吧。对你来说，Snapdragon 最性感、最美丽的概念或想法是什么？从那里开始吧。

It's a new naming scheme, okay. What's the sexiest, most beautiful idea or concept to you about Snapdragon? Start there.

我的描述方式，也是我认为我们成功的原因，就是真正理解如何构建一个平台——一个单一芯片，具备所有能力。如果你想打造掌中的智能手机，满足所有计算需求，从工程角度来说，就是要把所有可能的连接技术——从蜂窝到 Wi-Fi 到蓝牙，再到所有卫星定位星座——集成到一个芯片中，同时还要有非常节能的单线程和多线程 CPU、满足所有图形需求的 GPU（游戏——增长最快的游戏细分市场是移动游戏）、我们称为神经处理单元的人工智能处理器，以及视频引擎和多媒体引擎，适用于所有应用、音频等等。所以它是一个单一芯片，拥有手机所需的所有计算技术。令人兴奋的是我们已经知道的事情——例如，当你考虑摄像头或计算机视觉时，你会看到这项技术的进步现在首先发生在智能手机上，而不是传统相机上。所以 Snapdragon 的美妙之处在于，我们在高通始终有这样的理念：手机很小，你必须能握住它，你会触摸脸部，所以它不能发热——你必须管理散热。你期望有全天的电池续航，但你又希望数据传输不是 10 或 100 兆比特，而是千兆比特。你想要八核处理器，你想要有光线追踪的 GPU，你想要那些有时只能在台式电脑上获得的东西。在手机中实现所有这些，并且一代又一代地保持领先地位，是一件不可思议的事情，我们高通为此感到非常自豪。

The way I would describe it, and I think the reason we have been successful with it, is to really understand how to build a platform—a single chip that will have every single capability. If you want to make this smartphone in the palm of your hand, something that has all of their computing needs, it was the ability to get, from an engineering standpoint, into a single chip not only all possible connectivity technology—from cellular to Wi-Fi to Bluetooth to every single constellation of satellite for position location—but at the same time a very power-efficient single-thread and multi-threaded CPU, a GPU for all of your graphic demands (gaming—the fastest growing segment for gaming is mobile gaming), an artificial intelligence processor which we call the neural processor unit, and then a video engine and a multimedia engine for every single application, audio, everything. So it's a single chip that has every single computing technology you need in the phone. And what's exciting about it is what we already knew—for example, when you think about camera or computer vision, you see that advancements in this technology now happen in the smartphone first versus traditional camera. So the beauty about Snapdragon is we always have this thing within Qualcomm: the phone is small, you have to be able to hold it, you're going to touch your face, so you cannot be hot—you have to manage thermals. You expect to have a full day of battery life, but then you want it to not be sending data at 10 or 100 megabits—you want gigabits. You want to have eight-core processors, you want to have a GPU with ray tracing, you want to have all those things that you can only get sometimes in a desktop PC. To do all of that in your phone and be able to be in the leadership position generation after generation is an incredible thing, and we're very proud of that at Qualcomm.

是的，所以你必须做好 Wi-Fi、5G 等等——你必须对每个技术都擅长。所有这些技术打包在一起，还有压力要让东西越来越快，然后还有越来越多的应用你应该能轻松使用。然后你提到了 NPU、GPU、CPU——它们还必须以某种方式协同工作，它们必须良好通信，根据应用决定是否共享内存，而且你的电池必须持续一整天。所以从公司——高通的角度考虑，我们必须在每一项技术上都很出色。我们不能只说‘哦，我们是一家 CPU 公司或 GPU 公司或 AI 公司’。我们必须做所有事情。设计一款伟大的处理器需要什么？所以设计你提到的这个片上系统——在这个工程师、设计师、领导者，你知道，那些考虑这要花多少钱的人，整个混乱中，你能提供一些见解吗？

Yeah, so you have to do the Wi-Fi, 5G, all the—and you have to be good to everyone. All of those technologies packed in, and there's also pressure to make the thing faster and faster and faster, and then there's more and more applications you're supposed to be effortlessly using. And then you mentioned the NPU, GPU, CPU—they have to also dance together somehow, they have to communicate well, share memory or not depending on what the application is, and your battery has to last all day. So think about that from a company—Qualcomm—we have to be good at each and every one of those technologies. We can't just say, 'Oh, we're a CPU company or a GPU company or we're an AI company.' We have to do everything. What does it take to design a great processor? So designing this system on a chip that you mentioned—is there some insight you can provide in this chaos of engineers, designers, leaders, you know, the people that think about how much this is all gonna cost, the whole mess of it?

我当然对此有偏见——我在这个公司已经超过 26 年了——但我认为有几个成功的要素。我们谈到你有所有这些不同的技术；它们以各自的节奏发展，你必须在每一项上都出色，然后你需要让它们协同工作。所以你需要一个拥有不可思议协作文化的工程组织，因为每个人都必须工作——火车要离站了，每节车厢必须在离站时到位，必须准时离站。特别是在手机行业，你不能改变圣诞节，不能改变黑色星期五，不能改变所有销售季节。所以手机必须准时发布，每项技术都必须到位。工程师必须团结一致，我们在高通确实做到了这一点。另一件事是你必须有极强的纪律性，因为你知道那些是非常复杂的系统。所以一方面你必须以质量来设计，因为在许多情况下，我们甚至在没有收到硅片回来之前就要开始量产，你必须依赖运行模拟模型，你必须依赖你为商业应用设计的事实，这需要时间构建。你知道这可能是高通半导体业务的历史。

I'm of course very partial about it—I've been in this company for probably more than 26 years—but I would argue that there are a couple of things that are ingredients for success. So we talk about the fact that you have all those different technologies; they evolve at their own pace, and you have to be good in each one of them, and you need to then make them work together. So you need to have an engineering organization with an incredible collaboration culture, because everybody has to be working—the train is going to leave the station, every car needs to be there right when it leaves the station, it needs to leave on time. Especially in the phone business, you can't change Christmas, you can't change Black Friday, you can't change all of the selling season. So the phones are going to launch on time, and every technology needs to be there. The engineers need to work as one, and we do have that at Qualcomm. The other thing you have to have is incredible discipline, because you know those are very complex systems. So in one way you have to design with quality, because in many cases we're going to be ramping production even before we have the silicon back, and you have to rely on runner simulation models and you have to rely on the fact that you design for commercial applications that takes a while to build. And you know it's probably been the history of the semiconductor business at Qualcomm.

所以你的意思是，比如有多少人可以使用模拟软件等等，来在硬性截止日期前构建这个东西，而你可能甚至还没从制造那里拿回来——你不允许有任何错误？

So you mean like the framework of how many people can use simulation software and all that kind of stuff to build the thing with a hard deadline that you might not even get back from like manufacture before—you're not allowed to have any mistakes?

难怪我们的名字是 Quality Communications。哦，我从未想过‘Qual’那部分——质量。所以质量，标准很高，你不允许搞砸。

No wonder our name is Quality Communications. Oh, I never even thought about the 'Qual' part—quality. So quality, and there's a bar that's high, and you're not allowed to mess up.

我的意思是，作为一名工程师，这很令人兴奋——硬性截止日期，没有犯错的空间。我喜欢它。压力超大，但我喜欢。所以还有几家小公司叫谷歌和苹果。谷歌现在为其 Pixel 6 使用自己的芯片。

I mean, to me as an engineer, that's exciting—hard deadlines, no room for mistakes. I love it. Super stressful, but I love it. So there's a couple of other small companies called Google and Apple. So Google is now using its own chip for the Pixel 6.

苹果在用自己的芯片。高通如何与谷歌和苹果竞争？如何击败他们？

Apple is using its own. How does Qualcomm out-compete Google and Apple? How does it beat them?

实际上我们不必与谷歌竞争。如果你看看我们今天的移动战略，当我成为 CEO 时我非常明确——我认为市场上有很多困惑——我们的移动战略非常清晰：我们专注于让骁龙成为高端安卓体验的代名词。这就是骁龙。

We don't have to out-compete Google actually. If you look at our mobile strategy today, and one thing I was very clear when I became CEO—I think there's a lot of confusion in the market—our mobile strategy is very clear: we are focused on making Snapdragon synonymous with premium Android experience. That's what Snapdragon is.

安卓，人民的手机。是的，我就是热爱安卓。不，我经常对 iPhone 用户说垃圾话。抱歉，请继续。

Android, the phone of the people. Yes, I just have a love for Android. No, I'm constantly talking trash to iPhone people. Sorry, go ahead.

高端安卓体验。所以我们确实为每个价位段生产多层级骁龙。但每年——你提到了骁龙 8 Gen 1——每年我们提供旗舰产品，然后是其他系列，试图在当时尽可能采用最好的技术，真正专注于赋能安卓生态系统。我举个例子。你问我如何与谷歌竞争。这不是与谷歌竞争的问题；我们是谷歌安卓生态系统的头号赋能者，而最大的——那里的头号客户实际上是三星。如果你看看三星发生了什么——自从我开始与他们建立关系以来，我一直……因为他们总是有自己的芯片——如果你看看刚刚发布的 Galaxy S22 发生了什么，他们过去大约 50% 的业务交给高通。他们会把最发达的市场如美国、中国、日本和韩国签给高通，然后他们有自己的芯片用于更新兴的市场、开放市场、他们控制渠道的市场，因为他们销售大量家电和其他产品。如果你看看现在的情况，S22 有 75% 是高通。然后安卓系统中接下来的大型 OEM 是中国公司——像小米，增长最快的之一，去年某个时候在欧洲排名第一，然后是 Oppo、OnePlus 和 Vivo。所以这些是高通最大的客户之一，他们实际上推动了安卓生态系统。这就是我们的移动战略，与谷歌完全一致，而且行之有效。我不会深入讨论投资者话题，但我们也很高兴成为市场变化的受益者。随着华为因制裁成为较小的 OEM，我们看到许多其他中国 OEM 的崛起，尤其是中国国内市场——小米、Oppo、Vivo。他们转向高端品类，而且都是与高通合作。所以我们实际上非常幸运和高兴能在移动业务中处于这个位置。我们确实与苹果有关系；我们向苹果提供调制解调器技术——多年关系。苹果一直非常公开地表示他们正在投资开发自己的调制解调器。但高通的战略一直很清晰：我们真正专注于骁龙。我们的移动战略不是由向苹果提供蜂窝调制解调器来定义的；我们的移动战略就是我们刚才谈到的——它是关于骁龙的独特之处，将每一项技术集成到单个 SoC 中，提供高端体验。这就是我们正在做的，专注于安卓生态系统。

Premium Android experiences. So we do produce Snapdragon multiple tiers for every price point. But every year—you mentioned the Snapdragon 8 Gen 1—every year we provide the flagship product and then the other series that is trying to get the best of every possible technology at that time, and it's really focused on enabling the Android ecosystem. I'll give an example. You asked me how to compete with Google. It's not about competing with Google; we're the number one enabler of the Google Android ecosystem, and the largest—the number one customer there is actually Samsung. If you look at what happened to Samsung—I always had, since I began my relationship with them, because they always had their own chip—and if you just look at what happened right now with the Galaxy S22 that just launched, they used to balance their business about 50% Qualcomm. They would get the most advanced markets like the United States and China and Japan and Korea; they would sign with Qualcomm, and then they have their own chip for the markets that would be more emerging markets, open markets, markets that they have control on the channel because they sell a lot of appliances and other things. If you look at what happened right now, S22 is 75% Qualcomm. And then the next large OEMs in the Android system are the Chinese ones—companies like Xiaomi, one of the fastest growing, it was number one in Europe at some point last year, then followed by Oppo and OnePlus and Vivo. So those are some of the largest Qualcomm customers, and they actually drive the Android ecosystem. That's our mobile strategy and fully aligned with Google, and it's working. I'm not going to get into a lot of the investor conversation, but we're also happy we became a beneficiary of the shifts that we saw in the marketplace. As Huawei became a smaller OEM as a result of the sanctions, we saw the rise of a lot of the other OEMs from China, especially for the China domestic market—Xiaomi, Oppo, Vivo. They moved to the premium category, and they're all doing that with Qualcomm. So we're actually very fortunate and happy with the position we are in in the mobile business. We do have an Apple relationship; we provide modem technology to Apple—a multi-year relationship. Apple has been very public that they are investing to develop their own modem. But the Qualcomm strategy has been clear: we really focus on Snapdragon. Our mobile strategy is not defined by providing a cellular modem to Apple; our mobile strategy is what we just talked about—it is about the unique thing of Snapdragon that has every single technology integrated into a single SoC, and it provides a premium experience. That's what we're doing, focusing on the Android ecosystem.

我不知道能不能问你这种问题——这就像选孩子之类的——但哪款骁龙手机？你提到了三星 Galaxy S22、OnePlus——这些是我个人非常喜欢的手机。你目前用什么手机，还是有多部手机？

I don't know if I can ask you this kind of question—it's like picking your children or something like this—but what smartphone with the Snapdragon? You mentioned Samsung Galaxy S22, OnePlus—those are phones I personally really enjoy. What phone do you currently use, or do you have multiple phones?

我确实有多部手机，但我用 Galaxy S22。

I do have multiple phones, but I do use Galaxy S22.

那是你的最爱。好的，大家第一次在这里听到。太好了。

That's your favorite one. All right, well, you heard it here first, folks. Okay, so excellent.

高通是否也能——让我们暂时离开移动领域——在笔记本电脑和台式机领域与英特尔、苹果等公司竞争？计算机的本质似乎正在改变。就像智能手机在融合——一切都变成了带更大屏幕的智能手机之类的。那么未来会怎样？

Can Qualcomm also—let's take a brief step away from mobile—take on Intel and Apple and other such companies in the laptop and desktop space? The nature of what a computer is seems to be changing. It's like smartphones merging—it's all being a smartphone just with a bigger screen or something like this. So what does the future of that look like?

在回答那个问题之前，让我先退一步，因为我相信我们可以更多地讨论这些事情。现实是高通正在发生很大变化。我知道我们花了很多时间谈论 5G、智能手机和骁龙，我认为这多年来定义了高通。但现实是——即使与 5G 对话一致，5G 是连接一切的技术——高通也在改变我们的技术，这些技术在许多情况下是为手机设计的。我们一开始说过，连接和处理将进入几乎每个行业，因此高通真的在随之改变，并扩展到许多不同的可寻址市场。其中一些市场就是你谈到的 PC——移动和 PC 的融合。我对此感到兴奋的原因是，当你思考未来技术时，你会看到许多事情正在发生，将这一点推到前沿和中心。我们从疫情中学到的是，个人电脑的头号用例是通信。想想这一点很有趣——这是今天 PC 上的头号用例：通信。实际上很有趣，因为在蜂窝行业——实际上，让我退一步——在电信行业，我们几十年来一直在追逐视频电话这个杀手级应用，对吧？我记得当时在有线时代，甚至在互联网和 IP 之前，ISDN——你记得那些带有小屏幕的 AT&T 桌面电话，他们说你可以做视频电话。我们不关注那个——回到未来。然后当我们开始开发 3G 时，人们说在手机上拥有数据的应用是什么？都是视频电话。然后我们开始做 4G，一开始人们说嗯，你为什么需要所有这些宽带？哦，视频电话。但疫情让视频电话成为杀手级应用，现在这是 PC 上的头号用例。所以现在想一想：个人电脑现在——有些技术，人们买 PC 时不太关心，现在他们关心了。摄像头——摄像头有多好？音频——连接了吗？连接性有多好？你有最新最好的 Wi-Fi 和蜂窝网络吗？电池续航如何？因为你将在任何地方工作——有时你靠近，有时不。所以所有这些——便携性如何？所以这些事情开始改变我们应该如何思考 PC。但我不止于此。让我谈谈另一个趋势，这一切都是我们在疫情中看到的结果。假设你是一名计算机辅助设计工程师——你有先进的……

Before I answer that question, let me just step back a little bit, because I'm sure we can talk more about those things. The reality is Qualcomm is changing a lot. I know we spend a lot of time talking about 5G and smartphones and Snapdragon, and I think that has defined Qualcomm for many years. But the reality is—even consistent with that 5G conversation, which is a technology to connect everything—Qualcomm is also changing our technology that was in many cases designed for phones. We said at the beginning that connectivity and processing is going to virtually every industry, and as a result Qualcomm is really changing with it and expanding to a number of different addressable markets. Some of those markets is the PC, as you talk about—the convergence of mobile and PC. The reason I'm excited about this is because you see a lot of things happening that bring this right front and center when you think about the future technology. What we learned with the pandemic is that the number one use case of personal computers is communications. It is interesting when you think about that—that's the number one use case on a PC today: communications. It's actually funny because in the cellular industry—actually, let me step back—in the telecom industry we've been chasing this killer application of video telephony for decades, right? I remember back then in the wireline, even before the internet and IP, ISDN—you remember those AT&T desk phones with a little screen, and they said you can do video telephony. We don't watch that—back to the future too. Then when we started developing 3G, people said what's the application for having data to cell phone? All video telephony. Then we started doing 4G, and in the beginning people said well why do you need all this broadband? Oh, video telephony. But it took a pandemic to make video telephony the killer application, and that's now the number one use case on a PC. So now think about that for a second: personal computers now—there are technologies that people when they're going to buy a PC, they didn't care much about it, now they do. Camera—how good is the camera? The audio—is it connected? How good is the connectivity? Do you have the latest and greatest Wi-Fi and cellular? What's the battery life? Because you're going to be working from anywhere—sometimes you're near that, sometimes you're not. So all those things—what's the portability like? So those things started to change how we should think about the PC. But I won't stop there. Let me talk about another trend, and it all comes as a result of what we saw in the pandemic. Let's say that you are an engineer in computer-aided design—you have advanced...

你办公室里的台式电脑或工作站，但你希望有一天能在家工作，所以你不会把它搬回家。那你要怎么做？你就得依赖它——在云上运行。而要在云上运行，你需要高带宽，因为在这种场景下，你几乎希望云和你的电脑一样。这就是 5G 按需计算的用例。5G 几乎是两台电脑之间的连接。但 CIO 们会说：‘我的员工某些天要在家办公，我希望所有数据都在云上。’你看看微软 OneDrive 或协作能力——你需要带宽。所以当你把所有这些放在一起，你就会开始思考下一代 PC 是什么。这就是高通的机会。

Desktop computer or workstation in your office, but you want to work from home someday, so you're not going to move that to your home. So what do you need to do? You're going to have to rely on that—you're going to run that on the cloud. And you're going to run out of the cloud, you need high bandwidth because you almost wanted the cloud to be the same as your computer for that use case. That's the 5G on-demand computing use case. The 5G is almost a link between two computers. But then you know CIOs are saying, 'Well my workforce is going home for certain days, I want all the data to be in the cloud.' You look at for example Microsoft OneDrive or the ability to collaborate—you need the bandwidth. So that when you put all of those things together, you start thinking about what is the next generation PC. And that's the opportunity for Qualcomm.

我举个例子。最近的移动通信大会上，联想——他们有一条企业笔记本电脑产品线叫 ThinkPad，我相信你熟悉。他们发布了基于骁龙、带 5G、续航 28 小时的 ThinkPad。哦哇。所以那就是下一代。它只是一块好屏幕，配上极高的——好屏幕和键盘，以及极高的连接性，连接到云中可能更强大的机器，更多是数据连接到包含数据的算力，诸如此类。你有摄像头能力。让我再进一步：微软谈到现在在 Windows 11 上使用骁龙的一些功能。记得我们说过骁龙内置 AI 处理器。所以微软谈到的一个很酷的功能是，你在 Teams 通话时，可以确保你的眼睛 100% 的时间都看着摄像头。

I'll just give an example. Back in Mobile Congress recently, Lenovo—they have a line of enterprise laptops called the ThinkPad, I'm sure you're familiar with it. So they announced the ThinkPad based on Snapdragon with 5G, on 28 hours of battery life. Oh wow. So that's next generation. It's just a nice screen with extremely high—nice screen and keyboard, and extremely high connectivity to maybe an even more powerful machine in the cloud, something more of the data connecting to the data-containing compute, all that kind of stuff. You have the camera capabilities. And let me go one step more: Microsoft talking about some of the features they're doing now using on Windows 11 using Snapdragon. Remember we talked about a Snapdragon has an AI processor inside there. So one of the cool features Microsoft's talking about is you can be on a Teams call and you can make sure your eyes are looking at the camera 100% of the time.

嗯，这很有趣——所以他们可以和 AI 对话？是的，这真的很难做到。例如，我坚持要亲自进行这些对话，原因就是这真的很难做对。但这是一个值得的挑战。所以这就是元宇宙希望——就像我刚才说的，人类连接、传送自己的这种电话技术的重要性，把它做对真的很难。因为很多人讨厌 Zoom 会议，但这并不意味着你不能改善这种体验并消除厌恶。很多人也讨厌和他们的车说话，因为语音——自然语言处理很糟糕。但当它不糟糕时，就是一件美好的事。所以把它做对是一个机会。这是一个机会。想想看：它从 PC 开始，让 PC 为 Teams 提供更好的体验，但然后它又回到连接物理和数字空间的趋势，以及我们在元宇宙和未来虚拟现实物质性方面所做的所有工作。为什么不打电话给别人或用全息图与人连接？这是可能的。还要提到我们的汽车中智能的增加——半自动驾驶、自动驾驶汽车以及人与车之间的互动，这些对我来说真的很令人兴奋。

Well that's an interesting—so they can be talking with AI? Yes, that's really tricky to pull off. For example, the reason I'm a huge stickler for doing these in person—these conversations in person—it's really tough to get right. But it's a worthy challenge. So that's where the metaverse hopes to—so like I just because you said the importance of this telephony of humans connecting, teleporting themselves, getting that right is really difficult. Because a lot of people hate Zoom meetings, but that doesn't mean you can't improve that experience and get rid of the hate. A lot of people hate talking to their car too because the voice—the natural language processing is terrible. But when it's not, it's a beautiful thing. So getting that right is this is an opportunity. This is an opportunity. Think about it: it starts with the PC, making the PC giving you a better experience for Teams, but then it goes right back into this trend of connecting physical and digital spaces and all the work we're doing with the metaverse and virtual reality materiality in the future. Is why not call somebody or connect with somebody with a hologram? It's possible. And also to mention some increasing amount of intelligence in our cars—so semi-autonomous, autonomous cars and the interactivity between human and car, which are for me things are really exciting.

让我问你一个大问题。所以当外星人再次现在在另一边，对吧，人类在几个世纪后通过核战争毁灭自己——让我们希望不会，希望不会——但万一，你知道，这只是假设的思想实验，他们写 21 世纪人类历史，他们会记得高通在 21 世纪是一家什么样的公司？会是一家汽车公司吗？会像——想想未来 50 年可能发生的所有疯狂转型。因为你在想——你说高通通过 5G 赋能所有这些事情，可能还会有其他 G，它不断增加。所以基本上连接和计算，一切都变得连接，一切都有计算能力。你们会变成一家机器人和汽车公司吗？

Let me ask you a big question. So when aliens again now on the other side, right, and humans destroy themselves through nuclear war centuries from now—let's hope not, let's hope not—but in case, you know, there's just hypothetical thought experiment, and they write a history of humanity in the 21st century, what would they remember Qualcomm in the 21st century as a company? Would it be a car company? Would it be like—think of all the crazy pivots that might happen the next like 50 years. Because you're thinking—you said Qualcomm enables all of these things with 5G and there'll be probably other Gs, it keeps increasing. So basically connectivity and computation and everything becomes connected and everything is capable of computation. Might you become a robotics and car company?

我会说我们今天已经是一家汽车公司了。但让我说说我希望高通因什么而被认可。我想每个了解高通的人立刻——你知道，把我们连接起来，双关语，连接到连接性和无线。但现实是，我们实际上是提供智能和处理的公司，为边缘的一切、数据中心之外的一切提供智能和处理。我们做的那数十亿设备，它们将连接起来。这就是我们谈论连接智能边缘时解释的——超越手机、汽车、PC 和所有这些以及更广泛的物联网，我们谈论一切都将连接和智能。这就是我们希望高通被认可的地方。

I will argue we're already an automotive company today. But let me tell what I would like Qualcomm to be recognized for. I think everyone that knows Qualcomm immediately—you know, connect us, pun intended, to connectivity and wireless. But the reality is we're being actually the company providing intelligence and processing to everything on the edge, everything outside the data center. That we're doing those billions of devices, they're going to be connected. And that's kind of explained when we talk about the connected intelligent edge—the beyond phones, cars, PCs and all of those and the broader IoT as we talk about everything will be connected and intelligent. And that's what we want Qualcomm to be recognized for.

顺便说一下，对于不熟悉的人——有一些技术术语——但人们用边缘这个词，比如边缘计算。顺便说一下，这可能正在改变它的含义。但基本上它是所有不是在某处建筑里发出大量噪音的巨型东西。所以是移动设备，各种移动设备——嗯，冰箱，不是移动的，但也是边缘。所以就像什么是三明治那种讨论。但基本上边缘计算是你提到的那个扩张空间的边缘，高通正试图用计算来连接和赋能。

So by the way, for people who are not familiar—there's some technical jargon—but people use the word edge, like edge computing. It's by the way that's probably changing what that even means. But it's basically everything that's not a giant thing that's making a lot of noise in a building somewhere. So it's mobile devices and the mobile devices of all kinds—well refrigerators, not mobile, but it would be edge. So it's like what's a sandwich, that kind of discussion. But basically edge computing is the edge of that expanding space that you mentioned that Qualcomm is trying to connect and enable with computation.

这里有一个简单的方式来描述边缘计算中的边缘是什么。我认为当我们思考数据中心的演变时，你需要把计算带到更接近设备所在的地方。同时，当你把计算和连接性放在一起时，你会看到人工智能的许多进步发生在更接近或就在设备上。看，这是一个非常——我有一个简单的方式来描述它。记得在对话开始时我们谈到在 4G 时代宽带和移动计算并肩发展。如果你要有宽带，你不如手掌里有一台电脑。所以我们需要投资这两项技术。在 5G 中，AI 并肩发展。你 100% 的时间连接在云上，你有高带宽，而且你现在有一个智能的东西，可以实时做决定，向云提供上下文信息以使模型更准确，并与云进行比较和对比。所以将会有一个指数级发展的 AI 发生在所有边缘设备上——数据中心之外的设备——计算将随之发展。一个很好的例子是汽车。汽车，你知道，我们没怎么谈汽车，但你知道高通现在——你可以说——既是无线公司也是汽车公司，与 26 个全球品牌合作。如果你看我们的移动传统，我们谈论外形、散热、电池寿命——你不会把服务器放在汽车后备箱里。但你需要同样多的计算能力。这就是我们看到高通提供的，你知道，随着汽车成为一个连接的——

Here's a simple way to describe what the edge is in edge computing. I think as we think about the evolution of the data center, you need to bring the computational closer to where the device is. Also, when you put the computation together with the connectivity at the same time, you're going to see a lot of advancement of artificial intelligence happening closer to or at the device. Look, it's a very—I have a simple way to describe it. Remember in the beginning of this conversation we talk about in the 4G era broadband and mobile computing evolve side by side. If you're going to have broadband, you might as well have a computer in the palm of your hand. So we needed to invest in those two technologies. In 5G, AI develops side by side. You're connected to the cloud 100% of the time, you have a high bandwidth, and you have now a smart and intelligent thing that can make decision in real time, provide context information to the cloud to make the models more accurate, and as well compare and contrast with the cloud. So there's going to be an exponential development AI happening with all the edge devices—the devices that are outside the data center—and computation is going to go alongside that. And a great example is the car. The car, you know, we haven't talked much about the car, but you know Qualcomm is now—you could argue—as much as an automotive company as wireless company, working with 26 global brands. And it's easy to see if you look at our mobile heritage and we talk about form factors, thermal, battery life—you're not going to put a server in the trunk of a car. But you need as much computational capabilities. And that's we see Qualcomm providing, you know, as the car become a connected—

车轮上的计算机：我们提供计算和所有传感器，帮助你实现辅助驾驶，打造新的数字座舱体验，将汽车连接到云端。这一切都在发生。最终，高通是否想成为未来许多自动驾驶汽车的大脑，比如梅赛德斯-奔驰等不同品牌？我不知道，随便什么车。汽车有它们性感的一面，这定义了它们的品牌，等等。然后还有大脑，据说不需要品牌。那么高通是否看到了这一点，或者我能买到一辆高通汽车吗？真的吗？

Computer on wheels: we provide the computational and all the sensors for you to assist the driving, for the new digital cockpit experience, connecting the car to the cloud. And it's all that's happening. At the end, does Qualcomm want to be the brain of a lot of autonomous vehicles in the future of different brands like Mercedes-Benz? I don't know, whatever car. Cars have the sexy thing they do, and then it defines their brand, and so on. And then there's the brain that doesn't need to have branding, supposedly. So does Qualcomm see that, or will I be able to buy a Qualcomm car? Like literally?

不，你买不到高通汽车。但我们已经走在成为汽车大脑的路上。你应该这样理解高通的汽车战略：汽车公司意识到他们需要成为科技公司。你只需看看一些新电动汽车公司的市值，并与传统汽车公司比较。

No, you're not going to be able to buy a Qualcomm car. But we're already on our way to become the brains of the car. The way you should think about Qualcomm automotive strategy is: the car companies realize they need to become technology companies. You just look for example at the market cap of some of the new electrical comers and compare them with the legacy car companies.

哪一家？我听说过这个。

Which one is that? I heard of this.

好吧，我们就用其中一家在奥斯汀的，比如 Rivian，对吧？

Well, let's just use like one of them lives in Austin, let's say Rivian, right?

Rivian？哦，那家也是。是的。

Rivian? Oh, that one too. Yes.

你知道汽车公司不会消失。不押注汽车公司其实是个错误。这些核心公司需要一个技术合作伙伴。我们将为他们提供数字底盘，这就是我们正在做的。所以如果你看高通，我们谈论的是骁龙数字底盘。我们希望成为汽车公司的首选技术合作伙伴，我认为这正在奏效。目前这个战略是有效的。所以基本上是帮助公司，即汽车公司，加速成为科技公司，将汽车连接到云端，重新设计数字座舱体验的内饰，并为自动驾驶和辅助驾驶提供计算和传感器能力。

You know the car companies are not going away. It's actually a mistake not to bet on the car companies. The core companies need a technology partner. They will provide the digital chassis for them, and that's what we're doing. So if you look at Qualcomm, we talk about a Snapdragon digital chassis. So we want to be the preferred technology partner of the car companies, and I think it's working. The strategy is working right now. So basically helping companies, the car companies, accelerating to this, into becoming technology companies, connecting the car to the cloud, redesign the interior of the digital cockpit experience, and provide the computation and sensor capabilities for autonomy and assisted driving.

关于机器人这个话题：当未来数百万或数十亿机器人与我们人类一起在地球上漫游时，我个人有一小部分担忧，但主要是对未来感到兴奋。高通会成为为它们的大脑提供动力的东西吗？

On the topic of robots: when millions or billions of robots roam the earth in the future among us humans, and I am for one concerned in a small percentage but largely I'm excited about that future, will Qualcomm be the thing that powers their brain?

我们有一个物联网业务，这是我们增长最快的业务之一，有许多机器人项目。所以我给你一些例子。如果你看亚马逊 Astro，你熟悉吗？那里有两个骁龙。这真的很令人兴奋。他们应该寄给我。在哪里？好吧，但无论如何，那真的很酷。

We have an IoT business which has been one of the fastest growing businesses for us, a number of robotics engagements. So I'll give you some examples. If you look at the Amazon Astro, you familiar with that? There's two Snapdragons in there. There is this is really exciting. They're supposed to ship it to me. Where is it? Okay, but anyway, that's really cool.

我不知道它是骁龙。

I didn't know it was Snapdragons.

是的，我们在工业机器人领域工作，当然还有无人机。你知道，我们在机器人领域获得越来越多的关注，也开始颠覆工业机器人。

Yeah, we're working with robotics in industrial, of course drones. You know, we're getting more and more traction for robotics, started to interrupt industrial robotics too.

你说那是真的？

You said that's true?

特别是当你想到未来的工厂、未来的工业、未来的仓库会发生什么，当你把 5G 引入其中，你有许多不同的用例，然后你看到很多机器人应用，当然还有无人机。而最著名的，我会认为那是一个机器人，目前世界上最著名的机器人，它由骁龙提供动力，那就是火星 Ingenuity 直升机。整个直升机、摄像头和一切都是由骁龙驱动的。

Especially when you think about what's going to happen with the factory of the future, the industrial side of the future, the warehouse of the future, when you bring 5G for example to it, and you have a number of different use cases, and then you see a lot of robotics applications, and of course drones. And the most famous, I will consider that a robot, the most famous robot in the world right now, it's powered by Snapdragon, which is the Mars Ingenuity helicopter. The whole helicopter, the cameras and everything is powered by Snapdragon.

谈到对工程师来说令人兴奋的事情：同样的骁龙，它可以用在手机上，比如三星的 Galaxy 手机，同样的，不是特别的，一路到了火星，探索其他星球，寻找外星生命，也许它还能遇到外星人。如果骁龙是第一个看到外星人的东西，那岂不是很有趣？就像，搞什么鬼，我们没在计算机视觉里编程这个。

And talking about an exciting thing for an engineer: the same Snapdragon that goes to a phone and it can go to a Galaxy phone for example Samsung, the same, not a special one, went all the way to Mars, is exploring other planets, looking for alien life, and maybe he gets to meet him. Wouldn't that be interesting if a Snapdragon is the thing that first sees an alien? It's like, what the hell, we did not program this in the computer vision.

我想用这个例子回到我们之前关于质量的对话。作为一名工程师，你需要确保它正常工作。你能想象如果它到了火星却不能用吗？听着，这压力很大。NASA 与 SpaceX，所有这些公司正在做的事情压力极大。犯错的空间很小。但这对工程师来说非常令人兴奋。

I want to use the example to go back to the conversation we had about quality. As an engineer, you need to make sure it works. Can you imagine if it gets over there in Mars and it doesn't work? Listen, this is very stressful. What NASA with SpaceX, what all those companies are doing is extremely stressful. The room for mistakes is tiny. But that's super exciting for an engineer.

再次提到，全球出现了半导体芯片短缺。所以从你的角度，为了有趣地获取你对形势的专家分析，你认为主要原因是什么？高通如何受到影响？未来如何帮助解决这个问题？

Once again, there's been a global semiconductor chip shortage. So from your perspective, just to be interesting to get your expert analysis of the situation, what do you think are the main reasons and how is Qualcomm being affected and how can it help in this in the future?

好的，这是一个大话题，我们只有五分钟，所以我会尽量客观。首先让我们谈谈原因。你会听到很多不同的说法。我会尽量把它放在正确的背景下。第一个原因确实是几乎所有行业的一切都在加速数字化转型。每个行业都已经数字化，因此所需的半导体数量要大得多。举个实际的例子，如果你以汽车为例，今天推出的新车型很可能比上一代车型的芯片数量多 10 倍，而人们正在研发的下一代车型可能又是它的 10 倍。所以你看到硅的数量，然后数十亿的东西变得智能，越来越多的数据进入云端，数据中心增长，所以半导体消费的底线大幅上升。然后你有加剧这种情况的因素。疫情加剧了这一点。疫情有几个趋势：家庭的企业化转型，家庭变成了企业，宽带和物联网的大规模升级，办公室变成了我们现在的工作方式，包括支持协作工具和视频的能力。然后疫情期间对产品的需求更高，因为人们想要连接，人们购买了新手机、新平板电脑、新电脑、新游戏。所以所有这些都作为加剧问题叠加在上面，但它们不是主要问题。主要问题实际上是数字的长期增长。

Okay, that's a big topic of conversation and we only have five minutes, so I'll try to be as objective as I can. So first let's talk about what caused it. You hear a lot of different things. I will try to put it within the right context. The first thing that caused it really is the acceleration of digital transformation of pretty much everything in every industry. Every industry has been digitally transformed, and as such the amount of semiconductors that are required is much larger. Just to give you a practical example, if you think about the automotive as an example, the cars that are launching a new model today most likely has 10x the amount of chips of the prior model, and the model people are working on coming in next probably 10x that one. So you see the amount of silicon and then billions of things become smart, more and more data goes to the cloud, the data center grows, so the floor for semiconductor consumption went up by a lot. Then you have things that aggravated this. The pandemic aggravated this. There's a couple trends from the pandemic: the enterprise transformation of the home, the home became an enterprise, massive amount of upgrades on broadband and IoT, the office has changed to the way we work now, including the ability to support collaboration tools and video. Then you have the higher demand for products during the pandemic because people wanted to be connected, people bought new phones and new tablets and new computers, new gaming. So all of those things came on top of that as the aggravated issue, but they're not the main issue. The main issue is actually a long-term growth of digital.

所以我听到你说的是，疫情不是原因，而是加剧因素。

So what I'm hearing you say is the pandemic was not the cause, it was an aggravation.

是加剧因素。

It's an aggravation.

那么，作为人类文明，我们是否可以在制造、供应方面支持你所说的设备等增长？你能说一些高层次的想法，说明需要什么吗？

So is there a way we can support as a human civilization in terms of manufacture, in terms of supply, the kind of growth that you're talking about in devices and so on? Are there high level ideas you can say of what that's required?

是的，我认为这是答案的第二部分。那么现在发生了什么，我们如何摆脱这个问题？我们看到行业投入了大量产能投资。我们与供应商一起投入了很多，很多供应商已经制定了增加产能的计划。例如，行业计划在未来五年内将半导体总制造能力翻一番。所以这已经在发生。然后你看到一些事情实际上……

Yes, and I think that's the second part of the answer. So what's happening now, how are we going to get out of this? So we see a lot of capacity investments put into place by the industry. We had invested a lot with our suppliers, a lot of the suppliers had made plans about increasing the capacity. The industry is planning to double its total semiconductor manufacturing capacity within the next five years, as an example. So that's already happening. And then you see things which are actually...

这些举措很好。比如《美国芯片法案》，以及现在的《欧洲芯片法案》——《美国芯片法案》大约 520 亿美元，欧洲大约 430 亿美元。它们共同的目标是让至少 50% 的消费量对应的制造产能落在美国和欧洲境内。这也非常好。这是又一个激励，推动建设更多制造产能，而且是以地理分布的方式去建——供应链就是这么玩的。所以我认为这些都是好事。如果说我们从这场危机中学到了什么，那就是半导体很重要，半导体公司很重要，我们需要投资半导体。

They're good. The initiatives such as the United States Chips Act and now the European Chips Act — the United States Chips Act is about 52 billion dollars, the Europeans about 43. Their combined goal is to get at least 50 percent of consumption with manufacturing installed within US and European geographies. That's also very good. That's yet another incentive for more manufacturing capacity to be built, and to be built in a geographically distributed way — that's how you play in supply chain. So those, I think, are good things. If anything we learned through the crisis, it's that semiconductors are important, semiconductor companies are important, and we need to invest in semiconductors.

回到对 CEO 的“拷问”环节，问一些硬问题——这几乎是为了我自己了解这个领域。你提到了监管机构。高通在和解和罚款中支付并收到了数十亿美元。这个领域似乎有很多巨额诉讼。你怎么解释？这会阻碍创新，还是会促进创新？

Returning to the grilling of the CEO with the hard questions — this is almost for my own education of the space. You mentioned regulators. Qualcomm paid out and received payments of billions of dollars in settlements and fines. There seem to be a lot of huge lawsuits in this space. How do you explain that? Does this get in the way of innovation, or does it promote it?

我换个说法：这个领域过去确实有很多诉讼。除了我们在半导体方面做的事——你知道，我们的处理器和调制解调器，骁龙平台——我们还有一项授权业务，从公司成立之初就是一部分。作为 2G CDMA、3G、4G 和 5G 必要技术的最大发明者，高通把这些贡献给标准。所以我们一直有这种模式：与其发明技术并成为唯一生产产品的人，我们授权出去，让所有人都能生产，因此我们针对这些标准必要专利收取知识产权费用。作为我们过去与苹果纠纷的一部分——那已经过去了——

I will rephrase it by saying there used to be a lot of lawsuits in the space. In addition to what we do in semiconductors — you know, our processors and our modems, the Snapdragon platform — we also have a licensing business, which has been part of the company since the beginning. As the largest inventors of essential technology in 2G CDMA, 3G, 4G and 5G, you know, Qualcomm contributes that to the standards. So we always had this model that, rather than invent the technology and be the only one producing the products, we license it so everyone can produce it, and as such we receive intellectual property [royalties] for these standard essential patents. As part of our past dispute with Apple — that's behind us now —

你们现在是朋友了。

You're friends now.

他们是我的客户。作为其中一部分，我认为授权模式在每个地区都受到了检验，我们在每一个地区都成功验证了这一模式的支持竞争性——这一模式的公平、合理、无歧视原则。我甚至会说，除了是行业迄今最成功的授权业务之外，它可能也是经过最多实战检验、最稳定的，因为没有一个司法辖区是我们不需要去验证这一模式的。所以它是我们过去的一部分，而它带来的可能是我们授权业务的大量稳定性。但话虽如此，公司的增长在半导体领域。

They're my customers. And as part of that, I think the licensing model got tested in, I think, every geography, and we succeeded in every single geography to validate the pro-competitiveness of this model — the fair, reasonable and non-discriminatory aspect of this model. I would argue that besides being the most successful licensing business to date in the industry, it's probably the one that's been battle-tested and that's most stable, because there's not a single jurisdiction where we have not had to validate that model. So it's part of our past, and what it creates is probably a lot of stability in our licensing business. But having said that, the growth of the company is in the semiconductor space.

所以授权是：你想出一个相当好的点子，有一群聪明人想出很酷的点子，然后一旦你想出那个点子，你就把点子卖给其他人，他们可以使用——本质上就是授权。我们的授权收入来自我们所说的 SEP，即标准必要专利，是 2G、3G、4G 和 5G 标准的一部分。所以如果你想用 5G 做任何东西，你就需要从高通获得授权，因为你使用了属于标准的、高通的必要技术。半导体则是稍微不同——或者很不同——的模式：你做设计，把一堆迷人的想法注入到如何打造骁龙之中，然后，因为这是一家了不起的公司，你让别人把芯片造出来，它进入手机，带着品牌之类的东西。参与的玩家更少。这不是授权——我们卖产品。在半导体领域，我们不授权半导体技术；我们造产品、卖产品。

So licensing is: you come up with a pretty good idea, you have a bunch of smart people coming up with cool ideas, and then once you come up with that idea, you sell that idea to others, they get to use it — that's essentially a license. The license revenue we have is for what we call the SEPs, the standard essential patents that are part of the 2G, 3G, 4G and 5G standards. So if you want to build anything with 5G, you need to get a license from Qualcomm, because you use Qualcomm essential technology that is part of the standard. A slightly different model — or a lot different model — the semiconductor is: you design, you inject a bunch of fascinating ideas into how to build the Snapdragon, and then, because it's a fabulous company, you have somebody build the chip, and it goes into a phone with the branding and all that kind of stuff. That has fewer players involved. It's not a license — we sell the product. In semiconductors we don't license semiconductor technology; we build products and we sell products.

这是你担任 CEO 的第一年。

This is your first year as CEO.

还不到一年。还不到一年。

Not one year yet. Not one year yet.

希望吧——到六月就满一年了。

Let's hope — in June it'll be one year.

好的。

Okay.

这是一家涉及许多迷人技术的公司，触及数十亿人的生活。很多复杂的事情，因为就像我说的，授权技术——你必须与制造商合作，然后还要与多少家汽车公司和所有这些客户等等合作，还要与科技公司、苹果等等合作。那是什么感觉？在这家不可思议、复杂、庞大的公司担任 CEO 的这第一年——快一年了，即将满一年——你学到了哪些关于领导力、也许关于你自己作为人的教训？

This is a company that's involved with a lot of fascinating technologies and it's touching the lives of billions of people. A lot of complicated stuff, because like I said, licensing technologies — you have to collaborate with manufacturers, you have to then work with however many car companies and all these clients and so on, and you have to with tech companies, Apple and so on. What's that like? What lessons have you learned about leadership and maybe about yourself as a human being from this first — almost a year, soon to be a year — as CEO of this incredible, this complex, this large company?

哦，这是个信息量很大的问题。让我倒过来回答。我学到的第一件事——我认为这在 CEO 中很普遍，尤其是在我们这个行业——就是如果我有更多时间就好了。我觉得——尤其是因为我们在这么多领域增长，有太多东西要学，太多关系要建立，要花时间在多种不同技术上。但这其实反映了高通所面临机会的规模。高通确实同时在多个不同方向增长，所以确实更忙了。部分原因是我花大量时间理解我们要进入的新行业并建立关系。

Oh, that's a loaded question. Let me answer in reverse order. First thing that I learned — and I think it's probably common across CEOs, especially in our industry — is it would be great if I had more time. I think there's — especially because we're growing in so many areas and there's so many things to learn, so many relationships to build, time to spend with a number of different technologies. But it kind of reflects really the size of the opportunity that exists for Qualcomm. Qualcomm is really growing in a number of different directions all at the same time, and so it did get busier. Part of this is because I'm spending a lot of time understanding the new industries we're going into and building relationships.

第二件事与我的思维方式以及我的一部分性格有很大关系：归根结底，商业合作真的是由人完成的，我认为建立长期可信关系的重要性极其重要，作为 CEO 我一直致力于这样做。我们不是一家玩短期的公司——我们不是——当我们建立新的合作关系时，我们期望那是几十年的。所以我花时间做这件事，我认为这对高通很重要。

The second thing has a lot to do with how I think about things and a little bit of my personality: at the end of the day, business partnership is really done by people, and I think the importance of having trusted relationships for the long term is extremely important, and I've been dedicated to doing that as CEO. We're not a company that plays for the short term — we don't — and when we build new partnerships we expect that to be for decades. So I spend time doing that, and I think that's important for Qualcomm.

你问题的另一部分是：我们在所有不同领域确实有很多机会。我们喜欢的是——而且我很幸运在这么多趋势都指向我们技术的时候成为 CEO。我们谈到其中一些：我们谈到物理空间与数字空间的融合，谈到汽车的转型，谈到计算与移动的融合，家庭的企业级转型。有很多这样的趋势，而这些趋势为高通创造了提供技术的机会。首先，因此我们很着急。所以我有点着急，因为我认为技术的机会不可思议。但也要玩得开心、享受这份工作。

The other part of your question is we do have a lot of opportunities in all different areas. What we like — and I've been fortunate enough to become CEO at a time when a lot of the trends are pointing to our technology. We talk about some of them: we talk about the merger of physical and digital spaces, we talk about the transformation of the automobile, we talk about the merge of computing and mobile, the enterprise transformation of the home. There are many of those trends, and those trends create opportunities for Qualcomm to be providing technology. First, and as such, we're in a hurry. So I'm in a little bit of a hurry because I think the opportunity is incredible for technology. But having fun and enjoying the job.

会不会有一种负担，因为这么多——你说的合作，几乎像友谊、与他人的连接？我作为一个有社交焦虑的内向者，这看起来压力极大。所以你肩上有那种负担吗？你必须每天醒来，和你认识多年的朋友交谈——可能是——然后说服他们，与他们建立合作，和他们谈，向他们描述未来，向他们推销一个想法，然后你自己还要成长，因为你根本不知道未来会是什么样。你必须同时展现自信和谦逊——所有这些

Is there a burden because of so much — what you said is partnerships and almost like friendships, connections with other human beings? Me, as an introvert that has a lot of social anxiety, that seems extremely stressful. So is there that burden on your shoulders? You have to wake up every day and talk to friends you've had for many years — it could be — and then convince them and make partnerships with them, talk with them, describe to them the future, sell them an idea, and then yourself grow because you don't know what the heck the future is going to be like. You have to project both confidence and humility — all those kinds of

问题在于，这很累人。确实累，但这是我乐意做的事。而且不只是对外部伙伴，真的——对内、对员工也是如此。我认为关键在于让大家在愿景上达成一致、对愿景有信心，然后去执行。说到底，我们很幸运——我们有很多聪明人。所以当大家与愿景对齐时，他们就知道该做什么。当然，作为 CEO，你还得说服投资人，这也是个正确的想法。

The thing is that it's exhausting. It is exhausting, but it's something I do like to do. And it's not only with partners, really — it's also internally, with your employees. I think it's about getting alignment on the vision and faith in the vision, and executing. At the end of the day, we're very fortunate — we have a lot of smart people. So when people are aligned with the vision, they know what to do. And then, of course, as CEO, you have to convince your investors that it's the right idea as well.

如果你能戴上智者之帽——你对高中和大学的年轻人有什么建议吗？你自己从巴西的 humble beginnings 起步，也许还做过一个有点疯狂、冒险的决定去日本，如今你执掌着世界上最大、最成功、最具影响力的公司之一。基于这样的经历，你能给今天的年轻人一些建议吗——他们怎样才能拥有一份自己引以为傲的事业，或者人生？

If you can put on your wise sage hat — do you have advice for young people in high school and college? You yourself started from humble beginnings in Brazil, maybe made a bit of a wild, risky decision to go to Japan, and now you're at the head of one of the biggest, most successful, most impactful companies in the world. Given that story, can you give advice to young people today on how they can have a career, or just a life, they can be proud of?

我觉得第一件事——当然这些回答多少都和我的亲身经历有关，对吧——第一件事就是，对我来说，有个计划总是管用，哪怕这个计划只是我未来两年要做什么。但我想做什么？我想去哪里？我认为对人来说，尤其是年轻人，真正重要的是有一个梦想，然后去追求它。我是说，有梦想——不是回去睡觉。真正的问题是：你想成就什么？然后实现它需要付出什么？接着要相信自己。就像我说的，我以工程师身份加入 Qualcomm，刚加入时我根本没有当 CEO 的计划。但作为工程师，我确实想——我想做什么，我想在哪里做贡献，我想研究什么？然后从那一刻起不断演进。

I think the first thing — and of course all of those answers kind of relate to my own experience, right — the first thing is that it always worked for me to have a plan, even if the plan is just what I'm going to do within the next two years. But what do I want to do? Where do I want to go? And I think it's important for people, especially young people, to really have a dream and go pursue it. I mean, have dreams — not go back to bed to sleep. It's really: what do you want to accomplish, and then what is it going to take to do that? And then believe in yourself. Like I said, I joined Qualcomm as an engineer and I didn't have any plans when I joined to be CEO. But as an engineer, I did want to — what did I want to do, where did I want to contribute, what did I want to work on? And then keep evolving from that point in time.

另一件事——这算是建议，更像是职业建议，是我职业生涯早期得到的，对我帮助极大，我也要把这个建议给所有人——很有意思：花时间去弄清楚你擅长什么、不擅长什么。你的能力圈和无能圈之间那条真正的边界在哪里？一旦你看清了，你就确切知道自己该在什么地方下功夫。你可以说：“如果那是我下一步想去的地方，这就是我需要补上的差距。”而且，如果你能在别人告诉你之前自己识别出来，速度会更快。然后这会自动引向下一步：让自己身边围绕着那些在你不行的地方非常擅长的人。所以你必须对自己不擅长的事极度诚实，但基于你的热情所在，你需要变强——或者你希望变强——那就让那些人围绕在你身边。

The other thing — this is advice, more like career advice, that I got early in my career, and it was extremely helpful for me, and I'll give that advice to everyone — is interesting: spend time understanding what are the things you're good at and what are the things you're not. What is that real border between your area of competence and your area of incompetence? And once you see that, you know exactly what you have to work on. And you can say, “I can — if that's where I want to go next, this is the gap I need to close.” And it's faster when you can identify it yourself before other people can tell you. Then it leads automatically to the next step: surround yourself with people who are very good at the things that you're not. So you have to be radically honest about the things that you're not good at, but given what you're passionate about, you need to get good at — or you would like to get good at — and surround yourself with those people.

你制定的计划实际上有多少次真的实现了？你说制定计划很重要——但你没说执行计划很重要。

How often did the plans you make actually work out? You said it's important to make plans — you didn't say anything about it's important to execute on them.

超过百分之五十。对，没错。尽量保持在 50% 以上。

More than fifty percent. Yeah, right. Try to keep it above 50.

整个——你为什么最后去了日本？

What was the whole — why did you end up in Japan?

我整个职业生涯都很幸运地从事蜂窝和无线领域。我一直喜欢通信。我上工程学院时——我父亲是电气工程师，但他在电力公司工作。他希望我毕业于传统的电气工程专业，比如能源发电和配电。但我喜欢电子和通信，所以最后我两个都学了。我一直喜欢通信——我对无线通信很着迷。所以我在大学的第一份工作——我开始在巴西为一家日本公司工作，是 NEC——大约一年内他们把我调到东京，让我去总部。那是我第一次离开巴西，和巴西有点不一样——文化不同，在地球的另一边。事情就是这样开始的。

I've been fortunate enough to work in cellular and wireless my entire career. I always liked communications. When I went to engineering school — my dad was an electrical engineer, but he worked with the utility company. He wanted me to graduate in traditional electrical engineering, like in energy generation and distribution. But I liked electronics and communication, so I ended up doing both. And I always liked communication — I was fascinated by wireless communication. So my first job in college — I started working for a Japanese company down in Brazil, it was NEC — and within about a year they transferred me to Tokyo, asked me to go to the headquarters. It was the first time I left Brazil, and a little bit different from Brazil — culturally different, on the other side of the planet. And that's how it started.

你说你父亲是电气工程师。你觉得你现在做的事让你父亲骄傲吗？

You said your father's an electrical engineer. Do you think what you're doing now makes your father proud?

我觉得他非常骄傲。尤其是——他告诉我，我还是同一个人，从未改变。

I think he's very proud. I think especially — he tells me that I'm still the same person, that I never changed.

他还会给你建议吗？他会批评你做的事吗？

Does he still give you advice? Does he criticize what you're doing?

不会。怎么改进——我爸妈今天还在给我建议。我对此非常幸运。但他也骄傲，因为很少有巴西人能坐到 Qualcomm 这种规模公司的 CEO 位置。我也知道，我背负着一份责任——尤其是对拉丁裔群体，要成为他们的激励，确保我树立一个好榜样。

No. How to improve — my mom and dad still give me advice today. I'm very fortunate for that. But he's also proud because there are very few Brazilians who have achieved a position as CEO of a company the size of Qualcomm. And I do know that I also carry a burden — especially for the Latino community, to be an inspiration for them and make sure I set a good example.

所以不只是你爸妈，还有那种文化、你最初家乡的人们。你知道，生命是有限的。你会思考自己的死亡吗？

So not just your mom and dad, but the culture, the people that were originally your home. You know, life is finite. Do you think about your own mortality?

你看，我是虔诚的基督徒，所以我深信这只是一个过渡。但我不会花很多时间去想那个。我是那种尽可能活在当下的人，我就是这么做的——努力让当下在这个地球上变得更好。

Look, I'm a devout Christian, so I'm a big believer that this is just a transition. But I don't spend a lot of time thinking about that. I am somebody who tries as much as possible to live in the present, and that's what I do — try to make the present better here on this place on Earth.

绝对如此。而且其中一些技术、一些想法，也算是另一种形式的不朽，因为它们穿越时间传播，以最好的方式影响人们。所以技术可能令人恐惧，技术可能有破坏性，但似乎最终它能带来很多好处——好处多于坏处。你觉得这一切的意义是什么？我问过你外星人观察我们的事——生命的意义是什么，Cristiano？生命的意义是什么？简单的问题。

Absolutely. And some of these technologies, some of these ideas, are kind of a different kind of immortality as well, because they propagate through time and have impact on people in the best possible way. So technology can be scary, technology can be destructive, but it seems like in the end it can do a lot of good — there's more good than bad. What do you think is the meaning of this whole thing? I asked you about aliens observing us — what's the meaning of life, Cristiano? What's the meaning of life? Easy questions.

这根本不是个简单的问题。我觉得这个问题——至少对我来说，你得自己去回答。但我确实相信我们来到这里都是有目的的。我在祈祷中总是祈求，无论我的目的是什么，我都能走在正轨上。但我确实相信我们是有目的地来到这里的，我们需要在这地球上拥有的时间里尽力而为。

That's not an easy question at all. I think that's the question — at least for me, you have to answer individually. But I do believe we're all here for a purpose. In my prayers I always ask that I stay on track, whatever my purpose is. But I do believe we're here for a purpose, and we need to do the best we can during the time we have on this Earth.

所以这意味着创造美好的事物。对你作为工程师而言——是的——创造美好的事物。

So that means create beautiful things. For you as an engineer — yes — create beautiful things.

那爱呢？爱在人类境况中扮演什么角色？

What about love? What's the role of love in the human condition?

爱非常重要。它是做人必不可少的一部分——它是与生俱来的。而且我觉得，如果你看看现在的状况、正在发生的事——看看一些弱势群体的处境，看看无家可归者的状况——我觉得我们都需要更多的爱。

Love's very important. It's an essential part of being human — it comes in the package. And I think if you look at the situation, what's happening right now — look at the situation with some of the underprivileged communities, look at the homeless situation — I think we all need more love.

是的。而且我觉得，那些打造了不起技术的人有时会忘记爱的部分。就像那些全都是——它是一体的。没有——当你打造赋能人类的工具时，思考人性真的非常重要。因为——我觉得，至少我个人相信——我们都有作恶和行善的能力，我们必须打造技术、构建社会、构建——

Yeah. And I think people that build incredible technology sometimes forget the love part. Like those are all — it's all integrated. There's no — thinking about humanity is really important when you build tools that empower that humanity. Because there's — I think, at least I personally believe — we're all capable of both evil and good, and we have to build technology, build societies, build —

政府构建社区，激励我们与自身内在善良的一面相连接。我坚信技术最终是一种向善的力量。你只要看看——我不是想从深度讨论转向更具体的技术话题——但如果我们从智能手机谈起，智能手机确实是第一次可以说世界上每个人都能连接到互联网、彼此相连。我认为它带来的这种赋能是一种不可思议的向善力量。

Governments build communities that inspire us to connect with the good part within all of us. I'm a big believer that technology is, at the end, a force for good. And if you just look — not trying to move away from a deep discussion to a more specific technical one — but if we started a conversation talking about smartphones, smartphones were really the first time that you could say that everybody in the world was able to connect to the internet and connect to each other. And I think that empowerment that it provided is an incredible force for good.

你领导的公司、你创造的技术——其中我特别兴奋的一个是骁龙，整个处理器系列。目前我可以说大约有 100 亿个晶体管。如果你想想人脑，大约有 1000 亿个神经元。所以我觉得 11 台三星 Galaxy S22 已经比我聪明了——这还是在夸我。

Well, the company you lead, the technology you've created — one of them that I'm especially excited about, which is Snapdragon, the whole line of processors. There are currently, I would say, about 10 billion transistors. If you think about the human brain, it's about 100 billion neurons. So I think 11 Samsung Galaxy S22s are already smarter than me — and that's being nice to me.

你把你极其宝贵的时间花在我身上，我真的很荣幸，尽管你说贝利是你最喜欢的球员。抛开这一切，我认为你是一个了不起的人、了不起的领导者，你领导着一家了不起的工程公司。所以谢谢你。

I'm really honored that you spent your extremely valuable time with me, even though you said Pelé is the favorite player. Beyond all of that, I think you're an incredible person, an incredible leader, and you lead an incredible engineering company. So thank you for doing that.

哦，非常感谢。谢谢你的美言。真的很高兴能有这次对话。我做这个真的非常开心。也谢谢你邀请我上播客。

Oh, thank you so much. Thanks for the kind words. Really a pleasure having this conversation. I really had a lot of fun doing it. And thank you for having me on the podcast.

感谢收听与 Cristiano Amon 的这次对话。支持本播客，请查看节目简介中的赞助商。现在，让我用斯蒂芬·霍金的一段话作为结束。

Thanks for listening to this conversation with Cristiano Amon. To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now let me leave you with some words from Stephen Hawking.

数百万年来，人类像动物一样生活。然后发生了一些事，释放了我们想象力的力量。我们学会了说话，也学会了倾听。言语让思想得以交流，使人类能够携手合作，建造看似不可能的事物。人类最伟大的成就来自交谈，最大的失败则来自不交谈。事情不必如此。在未来，我们最大的希望可以成为现实。凭借我们掌握的技术，可能性是无限的。我们所要做的，就是确保我们继续交谈。感谢收听，希望下次再见。

For millions of years, mankind lived just like the animals. Then something happened which unleashed the power of our imagination. We learned to talk and learned to listen. Speech has allowed the communication of ideas, enabling human beings to work together to build the impossible. Mankind's greatest achievements have come about by talking, and its greatest failures by not talking. It doesn't have to be like this. Our greatest hopes could become reality in the future. With the technology at our disposal, the possibilities are unbounded. All we need to do is make sure we keep talking. Thank you for listening, and hope to see you next time.