高通 CEO 克里斯蒂亚诺·安蒙：我们急于奔向未来

欢迎来到节目，兄弟。

Welcome to the show, dude.

谢谢。非常高兴能来。

Thank you. Very happy to be here.

也谢谢你来到圣迭戈。我感觉自己像进了诺克斯堡。我很喜欢。

And thank you for coming to San Diego. I feel like I'm in Fort Knox. I love it.

很荣幸来到这里，也欢迎来到高通。

It's a pleasure to be here, and welcome to Qualcomm.

这个园区有多大？都分布在哪里？我能看到你身后还有一栋楼。

How big is this campus? Where does it spread out? I can see another building behind you.

我们有很多栋楼。具体数字我一时说不上来，但我们从一开始就在索伦托谷建楼。随着职业生涯的发展，我一直在这些不同的楼之间搬来搬去，不过我们挺喜欢这里的。

We have a number of buildings. I don't know the exact number off the top of my head, but we've been building in Sorrento Valley since the beginning. I've been hopping around those different buildings as I moved through my career, but yeah, we like it here.

所以你是随着职位上升，换过不同的楼。

So you've been in different buildings as you've gone up.

是的。

Yes.

这是你现在所在的楼，还是只是我们录制的地方？

And is this the building you're in now, or is this just where we're recording?

哦不，这就是我现在所在的楼。就是这栋。我“升级”到这栋楼了。

Oh no, that's the building I'm in now. This is it. I graduated to this building.

好。我每次做这类节目都从同样的方式开始，所以我要把你的背景念给你听。我大概会搞错一些地方，如果真错了，你尽管纠正我，我们可以拿这个当切入点。

Okay. Well, look, I start all of these things the same way, so I'm going to read your background back to you. I'll probably screw something up, and if and when I do, feel free to correct me, and we can use that as kind of a launching-off point.

没问题。

Very good deal.

好，你本科毕业于——我连名字都念不出来——学校叫什么？

All right, so you got your BS from — I can't even pronounce it — what's the name of the school?

是我家乡的学校，在巴西圣保罗州。是坎皮纳斯州立大学（Unicamp）。

It's from my hometown in the state of São Paulo, Brazil. It's Unicamp.

好。那你后来还从同一所学校拿到了荣誉博士学位，对吗？

Okay. And then did you also get — you got an honorary doctorate later in life from the same school, is that right?

没错。

That is correct.

好。然后你加入 NEC，1992 年从巴西搬到东京。据说你在那儿待了大约四年。你当时代表 NEC 来圣迭戈与高通谈合作，结果他们把你招了过来，对吧？

Okay. And then you joined NEC, moved to Tokyo from Brazil in 1992. You spent about four years there, as the story goes. You were visiting San Diego as a partnership on behalf of NEC for Qualcomm. They ended up recruiting you to come out here, right?

是真的。后来待了四年，不过……我最初——不到四年，超过四年——不到四年。我在 NEC 开始职业生涯，然后他们把我调到东京。那其实是我第一次离开巴西、搬到东京。那是一段很棒的个人和职业经历，我在那儿待了一年多一点。作为 NEC 的一员，我来到圣迭戈——就是那时我认识了高通——高通给了我一个无法拒绝的 offer，我 1995 年以工程师身份加入。

It's true. Then it's been four years, but yeah. My first — less than four, more than four — less than four. I started my career at NEC, and then they transferred me to Tokyo. That was actually the first time I left Brazil and went to move to Tokyo. That was a great personal and professional experience, and I stayed there a little over a year. As part of NEC, I came to San Diego — that's when I met Qualcomm — and Qualcomm made me an offer I couldn't refuse, and I joined in 1995 as an engineer.

以工程师身份。然后——再说一次，如果我错了就纠正我，因为我已经开始频频出错了——你最初在高通做了几年工程师。

As an engineer. And then — and again, correct me if I'm wrong, because I'm already off to a hot start screwing things up — but you spent a few years as an engineer at Qualcomm originally.

我以工程师身份加入高通，后来在工程序列里一路晋升，然后成为经理，再成为高级经理，等等，然后在 2021 年 6 月 30 日成为 CEO。

I started Qualcomm as an engineer, I think moved up the engineering ranks, then became a manager, then a senior manager, and so forth, and then became CEO back in June 30th, 2021.

在你成为 CEO 之前，我读到你去过一家风投。有那么一段时间你离开了高通，对吗？

And in the meantime of you becoming a CEO, I read that you went to a VC. There was a time that you left Qualcomm, is that right?

是的。我职业生涯中有那么一段时间，发生了几件事。我离开高通了一段时间。我在高通大概已经 27 年了——26、27 年，我都不数了。但在 99、2000 年前后有那么一段时间，我离开高通，做了几件我其实一直想做的事，我很庆幸自己做了。那对我的职业生涯很有帮助，让我积累了很多经验。我加入了一家风投——一家做投资的 VC——那时电信领域有大量投资。有一家 VC 专注于拉美电信投资，我很喜欢，因为我来自那个地区。后来 2000 年互联网泡沫破裂，很多投资被剥离，其中一家运营商曾是贝尔加拿大的合资企业，进入了破产程序，他们需要一个管理团队去做重组，而且是在巴西。所以我就做了大约三到四年。我回到巴西，先是做 CTO，后来做了那家运营商的 CEO，那真是一场冒险。你得做重组，每个月都担心我们能不能发出工资、交上税。等我们做到正 EBITDA 后，公司就被卖掉了，然后高通问我：你累了吗？想回来吗？我们想让你回圣迭戈。我在 2004 年前后重新加入高通，从那以后一直在高通，没有去别处的打算。

Yeah. So there was a time in my career that a couple of things happened. I left Qualcomm for a period of time. I've been at Qualcomm for probably about 27 years now — 26, 27, I stopped counting. But there was a period of time, around '99, 2000, that I left Qualcomm and I did a couple of different things which I actually wanted to do, and I'm very grateful I did that. It served me well in my career, gaining a lot of experience. So I joined a VC — a visa at VC — and that was the time there was a lot of investment in telecom. There was a VC focused on investment in telecom in LatAm, which I liked since I came from that region. And then when the dot-com bubble burst in 2000, there was a divestiture of a lot of investments, and one of them was an operator that used to be a joint venture with Bell Canada that went through a bankruptcy process, and they needed a management team to go do the restructuring, and it was back in Brazil. So that's what I did for about three to four years. I went back to Brazil and I was first CTO, then later was the CEO of the operator, and it was quite an adventure. You have to do restructuring, and you worry every month whether we're going to make payroll and make taxes. And then when we got to positive EBITDA, it got sold, and then Qualcomm asked me, are you tired? Do you want to go back? We want you back in San Diego. I rejoined Qualcomm around the 2004 time frame, and I've been at Qualcomm since then and have no intention to go anywhere.

关于风投那件事我得问你。你当时似乎可以在一堆公司里随便挑，但你挑的似乎是那个问题儿童、那个破产的。你怎么最后选了那个？

I gotta ask you on the VC thing. Like, you kind of had your pick of the litter of a bunch of different companies, but you picked seemingly the problem child, the bankrupt one. How did you end up choosing that one?

嗯，当时他们是少数股东。当时有很多迹象表明那会是正确的投资，但后来出现危机、一些监管挑战，主要运营商——也就是贝尔加拿大——退出后，它就变成了不良资产。那时我确实可以随便挑，因为我确实想去学习和积累做重组的经验。我跟你说，如果你能在巴西挺过一场重组，你大概会在这个过程中学到很多，我觉得我做到了。

Well, at the time they were a minority investor. At the time there were a lot of things pointing that that would be the right investment, but then when you have crisis, some regulatory challenges, and the main operator left — that was Bell Canada — then it became a distressed asset. And I did at that point have my pick of the litter, because I did want to go learn and get experience doing restructuring. And I'm telling you, if you can survive a restructuring in Brazil, you'll probably learn a lot through the process, and I think I achieved that.

你加入高通——你 2004 年重新加入了高通。

You joined Qualcomm — you rejoined Qualcomm in 2004.

是的，最初是 1995 年加入，然后我离开高通很短一段时间，大概从 2000 年到 2002 年。我 2004 年在圣迭戈重新加入高通。

Yeah, originally joined in 1995, and then I left Qualcomm for a short period of time, from like 2000 to 2002. I rejoined Qualcomm in San Diego in 2004.

以总裁身份？

And as the president?

不不不。我 2018 年才成为总裁。2004 年我重新加入高通时，第一年高通在电信运营商方面有很多不同的投资，而我有在巴西的经验背景，所以我花时间处理我们在美国的一项投资、在印度尼西亚的一项投资，试图给其中一些投资找到收尾方式。我想我们后来把它们处理掉了。我花了很多时间替高通跟进一家运营商——你可能记得 Nextel，它是 Sprint 的一部分。当时有一场大辩论：他们到底要不要用 CDMA 技术，而我在高通这边领导 CDMA 阵营。2005 年那件事完成后，高通让我接手半导体这边的 CDMA 业务，也就是芯片业务，我职业生涯的大部分都是在那块建立起来的，一直到 2018 年成为总裁。

No, no, no. I became president only in 2018. When I rejoined Qualcomm in 2004, in the first year Qualcomm had a lot of different investments in telecom operators, and I had the background from my experience in Brazil, so I kind of spent time with an investment we had in the United States, an investment we had in Indonesia, trying to find an end stage to some of those investments. I think we saw them then. I spent a lot of time with an operator for Qualcomm — you probably remember Nextel, that's part of Sprint. There was a big debate at the time whether they were going to use CDMA technology or not, and I was leading the CDMA camp on the Qualcomm side. And then when that got completed in 2005, Qualcomm asked me to take on the CDMA business on the semiconductor side, which is the chip business, and that's what I built most of my career, all the way to president in 2018.

我在圣地亚哥长大，却完全不知道 Qualcomm 代表高质量通信。我大概是个白痴。我大概是个白痴，但我真的不知道。我也不知道它是一家财富 105 强公司，拥有超过 4.5 万名员工，市值接近 1700 亿美元。它是个隐秘的巨头。我是白痴，对吧？难道其他人都知道，只有我不知道？

I grew up in San Diego and I had no idea that Qualcomm stood for quality communications. I'm probably the idiot. I'm probably the idiot, but I had no idea. I also had no idea that it's a Fortune 105 company with 45 plus thousand employees, market cap of close to 170 billion. It's a sneaky giant. I'm the idiot, right? Does everybody else know this and I just don't?

嗯，很多人不知道 Qualcomm 代表高质量通信。但我其实喜欢这个名字。没错，我们所有的产品都是高质量产品。

Well, a lot of people don't know Qualcomm means quality communications. But I actually like the name. It's true, all of our products are high quality products.

对于那些不知道的人，包括我自己，你能用 30 秒说说 Qualcomm 到底做什么吗？

And for those that don't know, myself included, like can you give the 30 second like what does Qualcomm actually do?

好的，Eckley，谢谢你的问题。我很乐意回答这个问题。公司正在变化。所以 Qualcomm 今天在做的是，当你考虑我们经济的未来，当一切都要连接到云端时，Qualcomm 将是那家为一切提供先进连接的公司，不仅是手机，还有数十亿的设备，为一切提供高性能、低功耗的人工智能计算。这真的是我们设定的目标。所以今天我们做的，我相信你听说过骁龙，那是我们的处理器，用于智能手机、平板电脑等等。所以我们正在为所有这些智能设备做大量的计算和连接工作。现在我们将这项技术带到汽车领域，将技术带到物联网，赋能数十亿设备。

Okay, Eckley, thank you for the question. I'd love to get the question. And the company is changing. So what Qualcomm is doing today is when you think about the future of our economy, when everything is going to be connected to the cloud, Qualcomm is going to be the company that's going to provide the advanced connectivity for everything, not only phones but the billions of devices out there, providing high performance, low power computing in artificial intelligence to everything. That's really what we set ourselves to do. So what we do today, I'm sure you heard about Snapdragon, which is our processor, processors to go into smartphones and go to tablets and all of that. So we're doing a lot of the computational, the connectivity for all of those smart devices. And now we're taking that technology to automotive, we're taking the technology to the internet of things and empowering billions of devices.

既然你提到了一些关于 Qualcomm 你不知道的事情，来自圣地亚哥，我不知道你了解多少，但有一件事很了不起，我们公司非常自豪，在非常短的时间内，我们现在与全球 26 或可能 27 个汽车品牌合作。Qualcomm 正在成为汽车行业最大的技术供应商之一，在所有你能想到的品牌中，我相信包括那 27 个名单。我们提供将汽车连接到云端的服务，提供汽车内所有不同屏幕背后的处理器，我们称之为数字座舱，甚至现在的辅助驾驶和自动驾驶。所以我们是驱动手机、平板电脑、汽车的公司，现在还有你在物联网中看到的所有不同事物，从消费电子到 Peloton 自行车到无人机，这些都是 Qualcomm 做的。

So since you mentioned a couple things about Qualcomm you didn't know, being from San Diego, I don't know how much you know about that, but one thing that it's remarkable and we're very proud of it in the company, in the very short period of time we're now working with 26 or maybe 27 now of the global automotive brands. Qualcomm's becoming one of the largest suppliers of technology to the automotive industry, and in all the brands you can think of, I'm sure it's including that 27 list. We're providing connecting the cars to the cloud, providing the processor behind all the different screens in the car, when we call about the digital cockpit, and even now assisted driving and autonomy. So we're the company powering phones, tablets, cars, and now all of those different things that you see in the internet of things, from consumer electronics to Peloton bikes to drones, and that's all done by Qualcomm.

你知道，我不知道这说明我什么，但如果你问我圣地亚哥最好的墨西哥菜，我能给你十个名字，但我不知道 Qualcomm 代表什么，我觉得也许我应该重新审视我在这里长大的圣地亚哥历史。我有一堆问题要问你。我想这就是这次对话的意义。所以我想先问，就像今天新闻里有很多关于芯片的报道。我很兴奋能坐下来和你交谈，还有《芯片法案》出台了，今天有三篇文章关于它。我读到的一件事是，你再告诉我，但我们从 40% 的半导体在美国生产，到现在不到 10%，这有很多后果。就像我觉得直到最近几年我才听说过芯片这个词。到底发生了什么？为什么现在它成了普遍话题？也许你对此有什么看法和观点？

You know, I don't know what this says about me, but if you ask me the best Mexican food in San Diego, I could give you ten names, but the fact that I don't know what Qualcomm stands for, I feel like maybe I should have revisited my San Diego history growing up here. I have a bunch of questions for you. I guess that's the point of this thing. So I want to start by asking, like there's a lot in the news today about chips. I was so excited to sit down and talk to you, and there's the CHIPS Act that came out, it was like three articles that came out today on it. One of the things that I was reading was that, and again you tell me, but that we went from 40% of semiconductors were being produced in the U.S. to now less than 10 percent, and there's a lot of ramifications to that. Like I don't think I've even heard the word chips until like the last couple of years. What the hell happened? Like why is it now in the general zeitgeist? And maybe what's your perspective and view on this?

这是一个很好的话题。让我们从头开始，对吧？每个人都知道芯片的原因，作为 Qualcomm 的一员，我很高兴是这样，但每个人都知道芯片的原因是因为当你遇到芯片供应链危机时，过去几年你有更多的需求和供应，人们意识到芯片无处不在。你买的任何东西都会有芯片。无论是人们买不到汽车，买不到家电，当然也买不到电脑等等。所以现在，我们到了整个社会理解芯片和芯片公司重要性的地步，这对像 Qualcomm 这样的公司来说是件好事。但现实是，半导体今天是经济的关键成分。因此，一旦你有了供应链危机，有很多事情导致了供应链危机，我很乐意深入探讨，但一旦你有了供应链危机，人们就意识到我们需要一个非常强大和有弹性的供应链，因为没有芯片，你就无法生产今天生产的大部分东西。我认为这本质上就是推动美国《芯片法案》、欧盟《芯片法案》的原因，结合美国和欧洲，这是 950 亿美元的投资用于建设半导体制造。关键是，我们能否建立一个不仅有弹性而且地理上多样化的供应链。看，如果你把地缘政治放在一边，我们不谈地缘政治，仅考虑自然灾害，全球 65% 的半导体总产量，其中 70% 流向美国半导体公司，是在台湾制造的。现实是，地理多样化符合每个人的最佳利益，包括我们来自台湾的合作伙伴。我认为这就是美国《芯片法案》和欧盟《芯片法案》的目标，这对行业来说是件好事。

It's a great topic of conversation. So let's start from the beginning, right? The reason everybody knows about chips, and as part of being part of Qualcomm I'm very happy that's the case, but the reason everybody knows about chips is because when you have the chip supply chain crisis like that, you have more demand and supply for the past couple years, people realize that chips are in everything. There's nothing you can buy that will not have chips on it. Whether you know, people could not buy cars, you could not buy appliances, they cannot buy of course computers anything else. So it was now, we got to the point that the overall society understood the importance of chips and importance of chip companies, which is a great thing for a company like Qualcomm. But the reality is semiconductors, they are today a critical ingredient of our economy. And as such there was the realization, once you have the supply chain crisis, and there's a lot of things that caused the supply chain crisis, I'd be happy to go into that, but once you had the supply chain crisis, there was the realization that we need a very robust and resilient supply chain because without chips you can't produce most of the things that are produced today. And I think that's what in essence what has been driving the U.S. CHIPS Act, the EU CHIPS Act, combining the United States and Europe, it's 95 billion dollars of investments in building semiconductor manufacturing. And the key thing is can we build a supply chain that is not only resilient but also geographically diversified. Look, if you put the geopolitics aside, like let's not get into the geopolitics, just to think a natural disaster alone, 65 percent of the total production of semiconductors in the world, and 70% of that total goes to American semiconductor companies, it's made out of Taiwan. And the reality is it is on everybody's best interest, including our partners from Taiwan, that you actually have geographical diversification. And I think that's what the U.S. CHIPS Act and the EU CHIPS Act are set out to do, and it's a great thing for the industry.

我完全同意。我的意思是，当人们无法把沙发送到公寓时，他们开始抓狂，然后当无法把车送到家时，事情升级了，对吧？所以我们一次又一次地看到它如何严重影响某人的日常生活。

I couldn't agree more. I mean people started freaking out when they couldn't get a sofa delivered to their apartment, then things escalated when they couldn't get a car delivered to their house, right? And so over and over again we continue to see how it acutely impacts someone's life on a day to day.

然后人们开始给...看，所有这些都归结于我们之前的对话，当你问我 Qualcomm 做什么时。我们看到的是，一切都在变得连接，一切都在变得智能。无论是你的家电，你的健身设备，当然还有你的手机，还有你的汽车，一切都在变得连接，变得智能需要大量处理，这为芯片带来了很多机会。这就是推动我们所处情况的原因。

And then people started giving a... and look, all of this comes down to the conversation we had when you asked me about what's Qualcomm do. What we saw with this is everything is becoming connected, everything is becoming intelligent. Whether it's your appliance, whether it's your exercise equipment, of course your phone, but in your car, everything is becoming connected, becoming intelligent has a lot of processing, and that's driving a lot of opportunities for chips. And that's what drove the situation we had.

我有个奇怪的类比。就像我甚至从未想过为什么硅谷叫硅谷。嗯，但正是因为像这样的半导体行业的公司让它起步。我想到的一个想法是，我世界里的很多人谈论数据是新的石油。我的问题是，好吧，如果数据是新的石油，那么 Qualcomm 是不是...

I have a weird analogy for you. Like I don't even, I've never even thought like why is Silicon Valley called Silicon Valley. Um but it's because of companies like this in the semiconductor industry that got it going off the ground. And one of the thoughts that I had was a lot of people in my world talk about how data is the new oil. And my question is like all right if data's the new oil then like is Qualcomm...

就像这个世界的壳？你会成为那个收费的超级大国吗？因为我们谈论汽车，却不谈论真正驱动它们的东西。这样说有道理吗？

Kind of like the shell in this world? Like, are you gonna be the superpower that charges? Because we talk about the cars, we don't talk about the things that actually move. Does that make sense?

看，让我们详细阐述这个话题，因为我相信一些事情，而且我一直在说，这关系到 Qualcomm 在未来的角色。所以让我们基于你刚才说的继续。数据是新的石油，这是真的。我们知道越来越多的数据会进入云端。有了数据，你可以应用人工智能，事物可以变得更智能，你可以让它们更高效，等等。例如，当你看看云计算的预测时，这反映出来了。云计算预计会无限增长。人们说这将以每年 35% 以上的速度永远增长，因为你会有所有这些数据进入云端。嗯，有人需要把数据传到云端，这就是我们通过连接所有数十亿设备所做的，那里有汽车，你家里和企业里的一切。它使数据能够传到云端。所以我认为 Qualcomm 变得至关重要，因为我们所做的一切在云端之外，在所谓的边缘。这就是公司的角色。这就是为什么我们一直在谈论作为未来战略公司，我们将为所谓的连接智能边缘提供动力。

Look, so let's elaborate on that topic because there's something I believe and I have been saying, and it speaks to what is the role of Qualcomm into the future. So let's build on what you just said. Data is the new oil, which is true. And we know that more and more data is going to the cloud. And as we have data, you can apply artificial intelligence and things can become more intelligent, you can make them more efficient, etc. That is reflected, for example, when you look at what are the projections for the cloud. The cloud is projected to grow indefinitely. People say this is going to grow at plus 35% year over year forever, because you're gonna have all of this data that's going to the cloud. Well, somebody needs to get the data to the cloud, and that's what we do by connecting all of those billions of devices out there, where there are cars, everything you have in your home and the enterprise. It's enabling the data to go to the cloud. So I'll argue Qualcomm becomes essential to the future cloud growth that we have because of everything we do outside the cloud in what's called the edge. And that's kind of the role of the company. That's why we've been talking as the future strategy company is we're going to be powering what we call the connected intelligent edge.

我听说你把这项业务比作角斗士业务。我觉得这是个很好的类比。你能说说为什么吗？

I've heard you compare this business to the gladiator business. I think it's a great analogy. Can you say why?

看，科技行业的机遇和挑战，尤其是像 Qualcomm 这样处于创新前沿的公司，我们在推动所有不同领域的创新步伐。你必须始终重塑自己。这意味着如果你今天成功了，那并不意味着你明天会成功。你必须不断重塑自己。你不能自满，你必须追求创新跑步机。我这样类比，我们处于角斗士行业，对吧？因为高度竞争的市场，高度颠覆性，一切都在于我们今天有什么创新，然后明天有什么创新，等等。所以就像角斗士行业：如果你是一名角斗士，你去斗兽场，你有三种可能的结果：你可以赢，你可以输，或者你们俩都可能输。然后如果你赢了，你所取得的一切，你得再去斗兽场一次。我认为这作为一种动力，我们必须不断创新，永不自满，保持良好状态。这就是我们需要做的。

See, the opportunity and the challenge of the tech industry, especially a company like Qualcomm which is at the forefront of innovation, we're driving the pace of innovation in all of those different sectors. You have to always reinvent yourself. It means that if you're successful today, that doesn't mean anything whether you're going to be successful tomorrow. You have to constantly reinvent yourself. You can't become complacent, and you have to be pursuing the innovation treadmill. And I make that analogy with that we are in the gladiator business, right? Because highly competitive market, it is highly disruptive, and it's all about what is the innovation that we have today and then what's the innovation tomorrow and so forth. So it's like in the gladiator business: if you're a gladiator, you go to the Colosseum and you have three possible outcomes: you can win, you can lose, or you can both lose. And then if you win, all that you achieve, you got to go to the Colosseum one more time. And I think it serves as motivation that we have to constantly be innovating and never become complacent and be in great shape. That's what we need to do.

残酷。多么残酷的行业。听起来很有趣，但也挺可怕。我得问你一些个人问题。所以在你之前，过去五到七年里肯定有一些角斗，如果你愿意这么说的话。几乎公司可能经历的所有困难，我想说 Qualcomm 经历了诉讼、激进投资者等等等等。你当时不是 CEO，你是总裁，二把手。你有没有停下来问自己，我真的想要这个吗？我真的想要这份工作吗？

Brutal. What a brutal industry. That sounds fun but also terrifying. I got to ask you some personal questions. So there was definitely some gladiating, if you will, that preceded you in the last five to seven years. Pretty much every difficult thing that companies could go through, I'd say Qualcomm experienced lawsuits, activist investors, blah blah blah blah blah. And you weren't the CEO at the time, you were the president, second command. Did you ever pause and say, do I really want this? Do I really want this job?

看，我爱这家公司。在那些时候我一直和 Steve 在一起，经历了每一个挑战。但我认为我们如何处理这些、我们如何成功、我们如何继续重塑公司并成长，说明了这家公司的素质以及这家公司员工的素质。Qualcomm 的有趣之处在于我们只是一家由人组成的公司。我们没有工厂。我们是无晶圆厂。我们不制造任何产品。我们一直是无晶圆厂半导体公司中最大的。我们所拥有的只是人。正是在一些最大的危机中，是这些人将 5G 提前一年带给世界。正是这些人一直在推动新技术，在所有这些战斗中始终定义着移动创新的步伐。我认为这就是这家公司的伟大之处，我希望永远不会改变。

Look, I love this company. And I've been with Steve during those times, been living through each one of those challenges. But I think how we have dealt with this and how we succeeded and how we continue to reinvent the company and grow speaks to the quality of this company and the quality of the people of this company. What is interesting about Qualcomm is we're a company of just people. We don't have factories. We're fabless. We don't manufacture any of our products. We've always been the largest fabless semiconductor companies. All that we have is people. And it's the people that in the middle of some of the biggest crises that we have, it's the people that brought 5G to the world one year ahead of schedule. And it's the people that have been driving new technology that has always been defining the pace of innovation and mobile during all of those fights. And I think that's what's great about this company, and I hope will never change.

100%。我想知道，在巴西，你的第一份工作是什么？就像如果我们倒带，从 Cristiano 到达圣地亚哥 Qualcomm 这栋大楼的巅峰，你第一次因为一项任务而得到钱是什么时候？

100%. I am wondering, in Brazil, what was the first job you ever had? Like if we rewind from Cristiano making it to this building at Qualcomm in San Diego at the pinnacle, like what was the first time you ever got dollars handed to you for a task?

嗯，看，我做过……嗯，回顾记忆很有趣。我记得小时候在社区里，我总是做事情来赚钱。所以我会做风筝并在社区里卖。我记得当我需要钱去旅行时，我高中时，我会卖……我放……我妈妈会生气，我会把冰箱和冷却器装满苏打水和水，然后去超级热的地方，带着冷却器在那里试图卖这些东西，我会以高价出售。所以我做了那些。那就是我第一次赚钱的方式。但真正我的第一份有报酬的工作是……我仍然……哦，然后在大学里我会卖……我会做不同 T 恤或不同标志或能量的丝网印刷，然后我会卖。所以我卖所有这些衬衫从我的电气工程师学校。所以我在学生时代就做了这些事情。但后来，在大学最后一年，我在公用事业公司获得了一份实习，那实际上是我的第一份有报酬的工作。那是一次有趣的经历。当我毕业于电气工程，但有趣的是因为我一直想从事电子工作，这就是我建立职业生涯的地方，当然通信、无线电通信，我一直喜欢无线电通信。但我父亲是一名电气工程师，他从事传统的电气工程，谈论发电厂发电和电力分配、电力传输。所以我找到了一份我可以两者都做的实习，非常有趣。巴西有很多小型水电站，他们需要进入自动化过程并设计电子电路来自动化工厂。所以这就是我在实习中所做的，去所有那些不同的发电厂。这就是我得到第一份薪水的方式。然后在那之后，我在 NEC 开始了我的职业生涯，从事蜂窝通信。

Well, look, I've done... well, that's interesting to go back in memory lane. I remember as a kid in my neighborhood, I'll always do things to get money. So I would make kites and sell them in the neighborhood. I remember when I needed money to travel and I was in high school, I would sell... I put... my mom would get upset, I'll fill up the refrigerator in the cooler with a bunch of sodas and water, and I'll go to places that are super hot and be out there with a cooler trying to sell those things, and I'll sell at a premium. So I did that. That's how the first time I got to earn money. But really my first job that I got paid was... I still... oh, and then in college I would sell... I'll do silk screen of different t-shirts or different logos or energy, and I'll sell. So I sold all these shirts from my electrical engineer school. So I did those things right when I was a student. But then, last year college, I got an internship at the utility company, and that was actually my first paid job. And it was an interesting experience. When I graduated in electrical engineering, but it was interesting because I always wanted to work in electronics, and that's what I built my career, and of course communication, radio communications, I always love radio communications. But my father was an electrical engineer, and he was in the traditional electrical engineering, talking about power plant generation and distribution of power, transmission of power. So I found an internship that I could do both, and it was very interesting. Brazil had a lot of small hydroelectrical power plants, and they needed to go to a process of automation and design electronic circuits to automate the plant. So that's what I did in my internship, going to all those different power plants. And that's how I got my first paycheck. And then after that, I started my career at NEC working in cellular.

你有没有……我听说……告诉我这是真的还是假的，当你不出差时，你一定会和你的家人、妻子和三个孩子一起吃早餐。我想这是你成长过程中和家人一起做的事情吗？在我的家庭里，我……

Did you... I've heard... tell me if this is true or false, that you make it a point when you're not traveling to have breakfast with your family, wife and three kids. I think was that something that you did with your family growing up? In my family, I...

早餐是原本就有的习惯，还是现在才成了你的习惯？

Was breakfast a thing, or is that just a thing for you now?

不，现在才成了我的习惯。只是因为，你知道，我是个简单的人，我真的很珍惜和妻子、孩子在一起的时间。这份工作给你的时间、给你陪伴家人的时间带来很大压力。我经常工作到很晚，很难保证一家人能一起吃晚饭，所以至少我们可以每天一起吃顿家庭早餐。这算是我找到的解决办法，也是最近才有的新习惯。

No, it's a thing for me now. It's just because, you know, I'm a simple person, and I really cherish the time with just my wife and kids. The job puts a lot of pressure on your time and how much time you have with your family. I work late hours, and it's hard to guarantee we're going to have a family dinner, so at least we can have a family breakfast every day. That's kind of the solution I found, and it's kind of a new thing.

你出差多吗？我特别好奇。

How much are you traveling? I'm super curious.

比我想要的多，但我觉得出差正在恢复。其实我对此很高兴。我是个喜欢和人打交道的人，面对面交流很难被替代。因为公司现在在各个地方、各个行业扩张得很快，我们必须建立新的关系，无论是在汽车行业，还是零售、医疗、工业等等。作为其中一部分，我一直在大量出差，去了解那些公司、那些行业，建立关系。所以大概在 50% 左右。

More than I wanted, but I think travel is coming back. I'm actually very happy with that. I'm a people person, and it's hard to replace face-to-face interaction. Because the company is now expanding so fast everywhere, into different industries, we have to build new relationships, whether within the automotive industry, with retail, with healthcare, with industrial, and so forth. As part of this, I've been traveling a lot to get to know those companies, get to know those industries, and build relationships. So I'd say a little bit in the order of about 50 percent.

有意思的是，我们准备这次访谈时，团队问我：“有什么需要知道的吗？”我说：“有，我坚持要当面做。”他们说：“太好了，你要是不当面做，我们本来都不会答应。”Cristiano 非常相信当面开会，我说：“我也是。”这带来的后果就是，我大概每个月有两到两周半在路上。

It's funny, because when we were getting ready for this, the team was like, "Anything we should know?" And I said, "Yes, I insist on doing it in person." And they said, "Great, we weren't even going to sign up for this unless you did it in person." Cristiano is a big believer in in-person meetings, and I said, "I am too." The downstream effect of that is I'm probably on the road two to two and a half weeks a month.

这有时候会不会很累，你会想“我不去了”？你要绕地球一圈。

Does that get tiring sometimes, and you're like, "I'm not going to..."? You're going all the way around the globe.

我通常是在国内。有时候你得把这一点纳入日常安排，关键是你要睡觉，要照顾好自己，还要有时间陪家人。所以你只需要找到平衡的办法。我在工作与生活的平衡上做得很糟糕，但这仍是我在追求的目标。

I'm usually domestic. Sometimes you have to factor that into your routine, and the key thing is you have to sleep, you have to take care of yourself, and you have to have time for your family. So you just need to find a way to balance. I'm failing miserably in that work-life balance, but it's still a goal that I'm pursuing.

你有什么窍门吗？我出差进入不同时区时会做的一件事是，在飞机上不吃东西，直到落地，然后吃一顿当地的饭，因为这会启动你的生物钟。你有什么习惯吗，比如出差前一定要锻炼一下，还是直接上，打开笔记本电脑就干？

Do you have any tricks? One of the things I do when I travel and I'm going into a different time zone is no food on the plane until I land, and then I have a local meal, because that starts your body clock. Is there anything you do, like you've got to get a workout in before you travel, or you just go for it and open up your laptop?

直接上。有时候我会读到一些吸引我注意的东西。我有一次在餐厅读到一句话：“饿了就吃，困了就睡。”我觉得这是个好办法，但并不总是管用。

Just go for it. Sometimes I read something that caught my attention. I read something in a restaurant once that said, "Eat when you're hungry, sleep when you're tired," and I think that's a good system, but it doesn't always work.

我觉得这很合理。你谈论业务的方式非常独特，和我有机会交谈过的其他领导者谈论他们长期取向的方式很不一样。我不知道还能怎么说，但你谈业务时是以两年和十年为单位的。大多数人不会那样想。我想知道，这是不是因为你在高通待了这么久，见过了每一个周期，还是说这只是这项业务运作方式的独特之处？这个问题说得通吗？

I think that's fair. The way you talk about the business is very unique. It's very different from the ways that other leaders that I've had the opportunity to talk to speak about their orientation towards a long-term thing. I don't know how else to say it, but when you talk about the business, it's in two-year and 10-year increments. Most people don't think of it that way. I was wondering, is that because you've been at Qualcomm so long and so you've just seen every single cycle, or is that just a unique function of the way that this business operates? Does the question make sense?

如果这个问题说得通，让我想想怎么最好地回答。我举个例子。既然我之前提到了 gladiator 业务，我就举个例子。比如我们考虑旗舰移动产品，我们的骁龙 8 系列，它今天在为高端智能手机提供动力——它驱动了所有 Galaxy 产品线，Fold 等等——所以从概念阶段，当我们思考产品会是什么样、具备什么能力、有哪些用例、人们会用手机做什么，从概念到我们真正进入全面量产，是一个四年的周期。所以我们要比市场提前四年，必须对市场会是什么样有非常好的判断，而且赌注很高，因为如果你错了，你会消耗数十亿美元的开发投入，还会错过周期。所以我认为这迫使我们具备长期思考的能力，思考关键技术趋势是什么、我们要解决什么问题，然后如何应用技术来解决这些问题。这是其中一部分。

If the question makes sense, let me think how best to answer that question. Let me give you an example. Since I mentioned the gladiator business before, let me give an example. For example, when we think about our flagship mobile product, our Snapdragon 8 series, which has been powering the premium smartphones today—it's powered all the Galaxy product lines, the Fold and everything—so from concept, when we think about what the product is going to look like, what type of capabilities, what the use cases are, what people are going to do with their phones, from concept to the time that we actually go into full production, it's a four-year cycle. So four years ahead of the market, we need to have a very good guess of what the market is going to be, and it's very high stakes, because if you're wrong, you consume billions of dollars of development and you miss the cycle. So that, I think, forces us to have the ability to think long-term and think about what the key technology trends are, what problems we're trying to solve, and then how do we apply technology to solve those problems. So that's one part of it.

另一部分是高通文化独有的。我认为高通自创业以来的一部分 DNA、也是让我们成功的原因，就是在一些需要用技术解决的问题上想得大，其中一些会持续十年，并且能够执行到位。正是这一点让我们有能力去构建未来。比如你可以看看蜂窝业务：每一代无线技术都是十年的周期。你预期 5G 会像之前的 4G 一样持续 10 年。所以这是多种因素的综合，但也许最简单的答案就是你说的：这就是科技行业的本质，尤其是创新度很高的行业，你必须努力不去预测未来，而是去发明未来。

The other part of it is it's unique to the Qualcomm culture. Qualcomm has, I think, part of our DNA and what made us successful since the startup days of the company was to think big in some problems that need to be solved with technology, and some of those are going to be a decade long, and be able to execute to that. It's what put us in the position to build the future a little bit. You can look at what happens, for example, in the cellular business: every generation of wireless is a 10-year cycle. You expect 5G to last 10 years like 4G did before that. So it's a combination of things, but maybe the simple answer is kind of what you said: it's just the nature of the technology sector, especially one that is very high on innovation, that you have to try to not predict the future but invent the future.

我觉得说到你说的不预测而是发明，你们在做的是未来面貌的前提条件。举个例子，如果你们不做好本职工作、交付我们需要的芯片，我们就无法在期望的时间线内拥有我们想要的自动驾驶汽车。这说得对吗？

And I think to your point of not predicting but inventing, you all are doing the prerequisites to what the future will look like. If you don't do your job and deliver on the chips that we need, as an example, we're not going to be able to have the self-driving cars that we want to have in the timeline that we want to have. Is that fair?

说得对，我认为这也说明了为什么我们很多员工有动力在高通工作，因为你知道你做的事会改变社会。就说移动：想想我们今天能用智能手机做什么，它多大程度改变了世界。这很不可思议。我认为我们投资和构建解决方案的所有其他领域也是如此。

It's fair, and that speaks to, I think, the reason a lot of our employees get motivated to work at Qualcomm, because you know that what you're doing is going to change society. Just go back to mobile: think about what we can do with our smartphones today and how much that changed the world. It's incredible. And I think that's true for all of those other areas that we're investing in and building solutions for.

那么在你做规划时，给我一些大致的时间线。从我父母在卡梅尔谷的家出发到这里，全程不碰方向盘，我们离这个还有多远？从技术角度看，我们离真正实现还有多远？

So as you plan ahead, give me some rough timelines here. How far are we away from me showing up from my parents' place in Carmel Valley, getting here, and not touching the steering wheel? How far from a technology perspective are we from that actually happening?

你看，我认为我们必须以渐进的方式来思考，对吧？我认为我们非常接近大规模的高速公路自动驾驶，以及我们所说的 L3、L3+ 级别的自动驾驶，你将能够——如果看美国，在高速公路上——你还在那里，你不必碰方向盘，但你还在那里。这是辅助驾驶。你会……

Look, I think we have to be thinking in incremental steps, right? I think we're very close to having mass-scale highway autopilot and what we call Level 3, Level 3-plus autonomy, that you'll be able to—if you think about the United States, on the highway—you're still there, you don't have to touch the wheel, but you're still there. It's assisted driving. You'll be...

我认为从技术角度来看，你可以说全自动驾驶可能还需要五到十年，因为它很复杂。在我看来，达到 95% 需要一定时间，但额外的 5% 将耗费大量时间和金钱——那些边缘情况。然后问题还在于复杂的监管环境。换个角度思考全自动驾驶：人类会犯错，对吧？你可能犯错并发生车祸。但公司不被期望犯错。所以，要达到系统可靠性和完美程度，让驾驶员不必——甚至车里没有方向盘——我认为我们可能还需要五到十年。

I think from a technology standpoint, you can argue full autonomy is maybe five or ten years away, because it's complex. The way I see it, it takes a certain period of time to get to 95 percent, but the extra five percent is going to take a lot of time and money—the edge cases. And then the issue is also the complex regulatory environment. Another way to think about full autonomy: humans can make mistakes, right? You can make a mistake and get into a car accident. Corporations are not expected to make mistakes. So for you to get to a level of reliability and perfection of the systems that the driver doesn't have to be—not even a steering wheel in the car—I think we're probably maybe five to ten years away.

然而，我认为仅仅把自动驾驶想象成有一天你坐在后座小睡，车子带你去任何地方，这是错误的。我们如何通过辅助驾驶实现零事故，并让每辆车都配备？高通在 ADAS 和自动驾驶平台上做的一件事就是，它不应该只用于高端车——每辆车都应该有，就像 ABS 和安全气囊一样。你应该有辅助驾驶，即使不是完整的 Level 3+，比如 Level 3 或 Level 2，也能让你有能力减少事故。所以即使你在方向盘后面，汽车也始终在观察，并在你可能犯错的情况下采取行动。我认为这是巨大的机会，我们很快就能在 2025 年的许多不同汽车中看到这一点。

However, I think it's wrong to think about autonomous driving just as the day you're going to sit in the back seat taking a nap while the car takes you wherever you want. How can we actually achieve zero crashes using assisted driving and make that in every car? One of the things Qualcomm is doing with our ADAS and autonomy platform is that it shouldn't be only for premium cars—every car should have it, like ABS and airbags. You should have assisted driving, and if it's not full Level 3+, you know, a Level 3 or Level 2 that gives you the ability to minimize accidents. So even if you're behind the wheel, the car is always watching and taking action in situations where you could be making a mistake. I think that's the big opportunity, and we're very close to seeing that in 2025 in a number of different cars.

你提到方向盘这点很有趣。在某些方面，你不想把人类从方程中移除吗？人不是会带来更多变数吗？计算机难道不会在某个时候变得更好吗？你觉得 10 年后我坐进车里，会没有方向盘吗？那难道不是好事吗？我的意思是，明确说，我是个糟糕的司机，所以我可能是个错误的例子，但对我来说不碰方向盘难道不是好事吗？

It's interesting you say that about the steering wheel. In some ways, don't you want to remove the human from the equation? Doesn't the person introduce more variability? Isn't the computer just going to be better at some point? Do you think I'll step into a car in 10 years and there won't be a steering wheel? And won't that be good? I mean, I'm a bad driver, just to be clear, so I'm probably the wrong example, but won't that be a good thing for me not to touch the wheel?

我认为 10 年后有可能。但我觉得人与机器的结合是相当不错的组合。

I think it's possible in 10 years. But I think the combination of human and machine is a pretty good combination.

我不会拿这个来要求你，我只是好奇。我喜欢开车，所以那对我来说会是悲伤的一天，但我会说 10 年后有可能。

I'm not holding you to this, I'm just curious. I like driving, so that'll be a sad day for me, but I'll say it's possible in 10 years.

但我认为人与机器的结合是相当不错的组合。

But I think the combination of the human in the machine is a pretty good combination.

是的，那很好。那很公平。好的，我还有一个——既然我们在谈论自动驾驶，我有个有趣的故事要告诉你。

Yeah, that's good. That's fair. Okay, I have one more—so I have a funny story to tell you since we're talking about autonomy.

有一天，有人试图预测全自动驾驶的未来，他们说：‘看，我们是未来。交通将 100% 绿色、完全自动驾驶，我们将能让更多汽车上高速公路，因为我们会更高效，也许我们会降低平均速度。’我说：‘好吧，我们可能会完全回到马的时代。马就是完全自动驾驶的。’总之，我觉得那是个有趣的对话。

One day, somebody was trying to predict the future with full autonomy, and they said, 'Look, we're the future. Transportation is going to be 100% green, fully autonomous, and we'll be able to get a lot more cars onto the highway because we're going to be more efficient, and maybe we'll reduce the average speed.' And I said, 'Well, we may go all the way back to horses. That's what a horse does—it's fully autonomous.' Anyway, I thought it was a funny conversation.

但我认为汽车行业正在发生惊人的变革。我想不出哪个行业在技术机遇方面更令人兴奋。而且不仅仅是自动驾驶：汽车正在连接到云端。当汽车连接到云端，你想想汽车——它将分发游戏内容，它有信息，有遥测数据。有许多不同的利益相关者将从汽车获取信息。你的关系——汽车公司第一次将了解你，因为它与你相连。汽车在云端有一个数字孪生。然后车上的每一个屏幕都将改变。再加上自动驾驶。所以这对技术来说是一个不可思议的机会。我认为汽车行业现在非常令人兴奋。

But I think there's an incredible transformation happening with the automotive industry. I could not think of an industry which is more exciting about the opportunity in technology. And there's a lot more than autonomy: the car is being connected to the cloud. When the car gets connected to the cloud, you think about a car—it's going to distribute gaming content, it has information, it has telemetry. There are a number of different stakeholders that are going to get information from the car. Your relationship—for the first time, the car company is going to get to know you because it's connected with you. The car has a digital twin in the cloud. Then every single screen on the car is going to change. And you add autonomy. So it's an incredible opportunity for technology. I think the automotive sector is super exciting right now.

说到汽车和巨大的讽刺，你是个跑车爱好者，汽车爱好者，但你喜欢的车没有任何技术含量。它们就像老派汽车。是这样吗？

Speaking of cars and great ironies, you are a sports car buff, a car buff, but the cars that you love have zero technology in them. They're like old school cars. Is that right?

我喜欢 70 年代的车，比如 70 年代的肌肉车。

I love the cars from the 70s, like the muscle cars from the 70s.

这么说吧，我生于 1970 年，小时候我就喜欢看车，觉得很有意思。我肯定有过自己的 Matchbox 小车，后来迷上了 70 年代和 80 年代初的很多肌肉车。所以那就是我的喜好。我一直在慢慢修复一辆 76 年和一辆 75 年的车。没错，它们没有任何数字技术，全是模拟的。

Maybe look, I was born in 1970, and as a kid, I looked at cars — it was interesting. I'm sure I had my Matchbox cars, and I fell in love with a lot of the muscle cars from the '70s and early '80s. So that's what I like. I've been slowly getting a '76 and a '75 car restored. But yes, they have no digital technology — everything is analog.

你不会开那些车去办公室吧？

You're not driving those to the office, are you?

不会，不会。也许它们让我想起汽车行业还有巨大的潜力，可以引入大量数字化。

No, no. And maybe they remind me of so much potential we have in the automotive industry, bringing a lot of digital.

我的思绪飘到了一些地方——也许我又在把不存在的点连起来——但我请过 Ockta 的创始人上节目，他说他有个习惯，每周四午夜左右和哥们儿去打冰球。一开始他开一辆非常好的车，后来慢慢换成了一辆 Explorer，很普通很一般的车。他解释这么做的原因是，这能让他远离生活里其他一切。那是他唯一能获得的正常感的慰藉——就是和哥们儿打冰球，没人对他另眼相待。不知为何，我的脑子总往奇怪的地方跑，但我就想到了你，在车里只有你自己，没有那些工作上的事，没有那些技术上的事。你一直这么做。我不知道——你有没有这样想过，还是说它只是一辆车？

What are the places my mind went — and again, maybe I'm connecting dots that don't exist — but I had the founder of Ockta on the show, and he was talking about how it's a ritual for him to go to hockey with his buddies at like midnight on Thursdays. He would drive a really nice car in the beginning, and then over time he actually got like an Explorer, something very generic and normal. And the reason he articulated for doing that is because it took him away from everything else in his life. It was his only solace of normalcy — just hockey with the guys, where nobody treated him any differently. For some reason, again, my brain goes weird places, but I kind of thought about that with you, where it's just you in the car. There's none of this other work stuff, none of this other technology stuff. You do that all the time. I don't know — do you ever think about it that way, or is it just a free car?

我会带着手机。

I'll have my phone with me.

好吧，有道理。就是一辆车——你就是享受它。

Okay, fair enough. It's just a car — you just enjoy it.

我就是享受它。

I just enjoy it.

说到车，Mark Fields 在你们的董事会里——现在还是这样吗？

Speaking of cars, Mark Fields is on your board — is that still true?

没错。

That is correct.

我在读《美国偶像》这本书，太精彩了。我看到这个的时候就想，天哪，Mark 在董事会里——太酷了。

I'm reading the book American Icon. It's incredible. When I saw that, I was like, oh my God, Mark's on the board — so cool.

是啊，他是个很棒的人。

Yeah, he's a great guy.

太酷了。好，我还有一个技术问题问你。我们离《星球大战》里的全息影像还有多远——给我个大概几十年——就是我在这儿，你在我面前是个全息影像？那真的会成为现实吗？

That's so cool. Okay, I have one more technology question for you. How far are we — give me like decades — from the Star Wars hologram, where I'm here and there's a hologram of you in front of me? Is that even going to be a thing?

哦，我们聊聊这个，因为我对此非常有热情。我从头讲起，好吗？我们思考的是主流计算平台是什么。你可以回溯个人电脑是怎么起步的，对吧？PC 是第一个大规模计算平台，我们今天还在用。然后变成了智能手机。智能手机成了人类最大的开发平台——今天就是这样，它是我们不可分割的设备。它没有取代 PC，但我们所有人都有智能手机，我们知道它们能做什么。所以我们思考的是下一个大型计算平台是什么。如果你看处理能力，加上连接一切的能力——比如有了 5G，你的智能手机 100% 的时间都连着云端，你有无限的算力、无限地连接任何你想要的东西——但显然有一个限制，就是屏幕的尺寸。那么下一个计算平台会不会是完全沉浸式的增强现实眼镜？是的，我认为会。我认为这就是我们在做的。我们在做，这是一个长达十年的项目，去实现我们所说的 XR——虚拟现实、增强现实。

Oh, let's talk about this, because I'm very passionate about this. So I'll take it from the beginning, okay? So we think in terms of what are the mainstream computing platforms. You can go back to how personal computers started, right? The PC was the first large-scale computer platform, and we use them today. Then that changed to the smartphone. The smartphone became mankind's largest development platform — that's what it is today, and it's our inseparable device. It doesn't replace the PC, but all of us have our smartphones and we know what they're capable of doing. So we think in terms of what is the next big computing platform. If you look at the processing power, plus the ability to be connected to everything — like with 5G, your smartphone is 100% of the time connected with the cloud, and you have unlimited computing, unlimited connectivity to anything you want — clearly there is a limitation, which is the size of the screen. So is the next computing platform going to be fully immersive augmented reality glasses? Yes, I think so. And I think that's what we're working on. We're working on it, and it's a decade-long project in enabling what we call XR — virtual reality, augmented reality.

那我们来谈谈技术。我们在技术上到哪一步了？

Now let's talk about the technology. Where are we with the technology?

我们来想想使用场景。现在，假设你做到一个像我此刻戴的眼镜这样的形态，因为人类不会戴一个大头盔——人类会用这样的东西，像一副普通眼镜。假设这里有摄像头，我也有能力在说话时感知——我脸上移动的肌肉——我有一堆不同的传感器。所以这并不那么遥不可及。从技术上说，我能够感知并渲染——就像我现在跟你说话，同时在云端渲染出我说话的画面——这并非技术限制。你可以用增强现实投影，把别人正在被渲染的影像叠加出来。所以你和我可以拥有面对面时的这种体验——我能看到你的全息影像，反过来也一样。我不认为这在技术上是不可行的。我们确实有几件事需要做得更好。我们需要在显示技术上突破，因为每只眼睛需要 8K 显示，而且必须做得非常非常小。我们需要光学进步。我们一直在努力用极小的功耗带来大量算力，因为放处理器、连接和天线的空间不多。但我认为，我们可能还需要五到十年才能拥有完全沉浸式的增强现实眼镜。那将创造一整套全新的可能性。

So let's think about use cases. Right now, let's say you get to a form factor that looks like my glasses right now, because humans won't use a big helmet — humans will use something like this, like a regular pair of glasses. So let's say I have cameras in here, and I have the ability to also sense as I talk — the muscles in my face that move — and I have a bunch of different sensors. So it is not that far-fetched. It's not a technology limitation that I will be able to sense and render — like I'm talking to you right now, render an image of me talking in the cloud at the same time. You could project with augmented reality, superimposing images of somebody else that are being rendered. So you and I can have this experience that we have face to face — I could be seeing a hologram of you and vice versa. And I don't think it's now an impossibility from a technology standpoint. We do have a couple of things we need to get better. We need to get to display technology, because we're going to need like 8K display on each eye, and it needs to get very, very small. We need optics to improve. And we have been working to bring a lot of processing power with very tiny power, because you don't have a lot of space to put processors in, and connectivity and antennas. But I think this is one that we may be five to ten years away from having fully immersive augmented reality glasses. And that's going to create a whole new suite of possibilities.

你觉得形态就是眼镜？你认为那会是我们使用这项技术的方式？

And you think the form factor is glasses? You think that's going to be the way we consume that technology?

我认为是。也许我们会经历几个阶段：先是眼镜作为手机的伴侣，最终眼镜成为下一个计算平台。

I think so. And maybe we can go to phases where you're going to have glasses as a companion of your phone, and then eventually glasses is the next computing platform.

还有哪些现实生活中的使用场景？比如，我还能怎么用？

And what are some other real-life use cases? Like, what else — how can I use that?

我们谈谈——我肯定有人会说，有些人会说这很棒，有些人会说这不好，对吧？但我们先畅想一下。

So let's talk about things — I'm sure people are going to say some of them will say it's great, someone is going to say it's not great, right? But let's just play with it.

我们就避开“不好”那部分吧，因为那些人只是悲观。那些只是——

Let's just avoid the not great, because they're just pessimistic. Those are just —

对，但比如说，假设我从没见过你，对吧？我戴着增强现实眼镜。突然它看到你的脸，你实时到云端搜索 Instagram、LinkedIn 和 Facebook，说这是这个人——你以前见过这个人，这是你们之间的联系。你可以了解关于你环境的一切。同样，你可以看着某个东西，选择获取任何你想要的信息。现在想想——把这个带到教育，改变教育的潜力是惊人的。带到企业，怎么做培训。假设你要工作——你是技术员，要修发动机。你的眼镜看着发动机零件时会告诉你：拆下这个，这是方法——这是拆下它需要做的，更换这个。连接到网联汽车的数字孪生，说这个零件有磨损，更换这个。所以这是无穷无尽的。我认为思考方式是：它关乎连接，消除手机屏幕尺寸的限制，创造一整套全新的可能性。我认为这才引出了关于元宇宙的讨论。元宇宙是关于——

Yeah, but let's say, for example, let's say I never met you, right? So I have my augmented reality glasses. All of a sudden it sees your face, and you go real time to the cloud and search Instagram and LinkedIn and Facebook and say this is this person — you met this person before, here are the connections you have. You can learn everything about your environment. Same thing — you can look at something and you may choose to have information about anything that you want. Now think about — take this to education, incredible potential of how you change education. Take that to an enterprise, how you do training. Let's say you need to do work — you're a technician, you need to work on an engine. Your glasses, as you look at an engine part, will tell you: remove this, this is how — this is what you need to do to remove it, replace this. Go to the digital twin of the connected car and say this part has wear and tear, replace this one. So it's endless. I think the way to think about it is it's about connecting, eliminating the screen size limitation of your phone, and creating a whole new set of possibilities. And I think that's what leads to this conversation about the metaverse, really. The metaverse is about —

结合物理和数字空间，以及我描述元宇宙将如何发展的方式：一切都会有一个数字孪生。我可以有一个你自己的数字孪生，一个事物的数字孪生，你的汽车或其他任何东西的数字孪生。我认为有了眼镜，你将能够连接物理空间和数字空间。

Combining physical and digital spaces, and the way I describe how the metaverse is going to develop: everything is going to have a digital twin. I could have a digital twin of yourself, a digital twin of a thing, of your car, or anything else. And I think with glasses you'll be able to make the connection between the physical and the digital space.

一切都需要数字孪生吗？比如我的车？

Does everything need a digital twin? Like my car?

绝对需要。你汽车的数字孪生——甚至无可争议。所以当你今天开车时，想想汽车制造商与你的汽车建立连接的能力。当你的汽车交付给你时，你在云端有一张汽车的图片，当你驾驶时，那张图片会根据正在发生的事情实时更新：你更多地使用了汽车的哪些部分，汽车状况如何——汽车设计为在这种情况行驶这么多公里，而这正是你使用它的方式。一个简单的事情是预测性维护。数字孪生会告诉你什么时候该更换某个部件。数字孪生会提供关于汽车设计的反馈，说也许你不必这样设计这个东西；你就是这样设计的。然后想想你将拥有的所有数字服务。另一件事是数字孪生会了解你作为驾驶员的情况，然后你可以获得更个性化的体验。我认为潜力巨大。我很兴奋，我热血沸腾，这让我充满激情。

Absolutely. Your car's digital twin—not even debatable. So as you drive your car today, think about the ability of a car maker having the connection with your car. When your car gets delivered to you, you have a picture of the car in the cloud, and as you drive, that picture gets real-time updated from what's happening: what do you use more of the car, how is the car—the car was designed to run this many kilometers in this situation, and this is exactly how you use it. And a simple thing is predictive maintenance. A digital twin will tell you when it's time to replace something. A digital twin will provide feedback on the car design to say maybe you don't have to design this thing this way; you're designed that way. And then think about all the digital services that you're going to have. The other thing is the digital twin will learn about you as a driver, and then you can have a more personalized experience for you. I think it's incredible potential. I'm excited, I'm stoked, that fires me up.

你是吗？作为 CEO 有什么让你感到惊讶的吗？我明白——你承担更多责任，意味着更大影响，我理解。但有没有什么你接手时没预料到的事情？

Are you? Is there anything about the CEO gig that surprised you? And I get it—you get more responsibility, that means more impact, I understand that. But was there anything that you just didn't see coming when you took the job?

嗯，不是我没预料到；我可能对时间要求有不切实际的期望。我认为高通 CEO 面临很多时间要求，也许这是公司当前阶段的一部分，因为我们正在重塑自己、扩张。但时间要求——这是一个非常大的问题。

Well, it's not that I didn't see it coming; I probably had unrealistic expectations about time demands. And I think there are a lot of time demands on the Qualcomm CEO, and I think maybe it's part of the current stage of the company as we are reinventing ourselves, expanding. But the time demand was—it's a very big issue.

你的时间要求——对你时间的要求？

Your time demand—the demand on your time?

是的，是的。好吧。我可能设定了不切实际的期望。是的，会解决的；我会拥有我需要的时间。但你知道，你必须做出一些选择。另一件事是，当我 2018 年成为总裁时，我一直在经营我的导体业务——公司——我一直在希望为成为 CEO 的可能性做准备。但有一件事并不意外但很难，就是我们正在尝试转型公司。我回到你我的对话——他说我来自圣地亚哥——你对高通了解那么多。我们处于一个阶段，每个人看着高通，他们认为这是一家有许可业务并为手机提供芯片的公司。而现实是公司远不止于此。公司实际上是面向边缘未来的互联处理器公司——智能边缘——这将使未来的云经济成为可能，我们谈论的所有事情。所以改变公司的认知比最初想的更具挑战性。但我们取得了很大进展，我们继续执行我们的新多元化战略，我只需要耐心。你知道，最终我们会得到我们应得的认可。

Yes, yeah. Okay. I probably set unrealistic expectations. Yeah, it's gonna work out; I'll have as much time as I need. But you know, you have to make some choices. The other thing is, as I became president in 2018, I've been running this in my conductor business—the company—I've been hopefully preparing for the possibility of becoming the CEO. But one thing that was not a surprise but it is hard is we're trying to transform the company. And I go back to the conversation you and I had—he said I'm from San Diego—and there's so much you knew about Qualcomm. We're at a point that everybody looks at Qualcomm and they think this is the company that has a licensing business and provides a chip to cell phones. And the reality there's much more to the company. The company is really the connected processor company for the future of the edge—the intelligent edge—which will enable a future cloud economy, all the things we talk about. So it was more challenging than originally thought to change the perception of the company. But we made a lot of progress, we continue to execute on our new diversification strategy, and I just have to be patient. You know, eventually we're going to get the recognition we deserve.

你有一个经常使用的表达，我非常喜欢，它让我想起我自己。你谈到——你说我们很着急。你说我们很着急，我们不是不耐烦，但我们很着急。你能解释一下吗，特别是相对于时间的概念？

You have this expression that you use a lot that I absolutely love, and it reminds me of myself. You talk about—you say we're in a hurry. You say we're in a hurry, we're not impatient, but we're in a hurry. Can you explain that, especially relative to the concept of time?

是的。你问这个很有趣。

Yes. It's funny that you asked that.

为什么有趣？

Why is it funny?

不，因为你知道，这很有趣——我们正在做很多事情。而现实是因为我们面前的机会是巨大的，对吧？我们不想错过它。所以这就是为什么我们很着急。我们在高通面前有不可思议的机会。也许我快速列举一下：继续我们在移动领域所做的，即智能手机——不可思议的设备——继续设定创新步伐；我们才刚刚开始 5G 的潜力；我们有汽车的整个转型；下一代个人电脑，因为我们与微软一起进入 PC 领域；虚拟现实、增强现实设备；我们正在努力将 5G 作为宽带的纤维替代品；我们正在努力将连接性转型到企业；我们还在做机器人和智能零售、智能医疗保健，所有工业领域。所以我们有所有这些机会，我们不想错过。这是高通自成立以来历史上最大的机会之一。我 truly 相信高通最好的还在后头，我们需要执行所有这些。有趣的是——我几周前开了一个全员会议，我想是在我们财报之后，我开放提问——任何人都可以问任何问题，你可以在线提交。其中一个问题是，我们是不是做了太多事情？我们正在做所有这些事情。我提供了答案，这是我曾经看到的东西，我说，嗯，这很有道理，我想我会用这个。这是一位非常著名的美国 NASCAR 赛车手说的——马里奥·安德雷蒂，我相信是马里奥·安德雷蒂。他说，如果你在比赛中开得很快并且完全控制着车，那你还不够快。我认为这就是我们需要做的事情。我们很着急，因为我们有很多机会。技术转型正在发生，它不会等待任何人。而高通要去做，去抓住它，成为互联智能边缘的领导者。

No, because you know, it's interesting—we're doing a lot of stuff. And the reality is because the opportunity in front of us is tremendous, right? And we don't want to miss it. So that's why we're in a hurry. We have incredible opportunities in front of Qualcomm. Maybe I will just list them real quick: continue to do what we're doing in mobile, which is smartphones—incredible device—continue to set the pace of innovation; we're just at the beginning of the 5G potential; we have the whole transformation of cars; next-generation personal computers as we enter the PC space with Microsoft; virtual reality, augmented reality devices; we're working to bring 5G as replacement of fiber for broadband; we're working to transform connectivity into the enterprise; and we're doing robotics and smart retail, smart health care, all of the industrial. So we have all these opportunities and we don't want to miss it. It's one of the biggest opportunities in the history of Qualcomm since we started. And I truly believe the best of Qualcomm is yet to come, and we need to execute on all of it. It's funny—I had an all-hands meeting about a couple weeks ago, I think right after our earnings, and I opened for questions—anybody can ask any question, you can submit them online. And one of the questions was like, aren't we doing too many things? We're doing all those things. And I provided the answer, which is something that I saw once and I said, well, this makes a lot of sense, I think I'm going to use that. And it was something that a very famous American NASCAR racer said—Mario Andretti, I believe it was Mario Andretti. He said, if you're in a race and you're driving fast and you're in full control of the car, you're not fast enough. And I think that's kind of the things that we need to do. We're in a hurry because we have a lot of opportunities. Technology transition is happening, it's not going to wait for anybody. And it's for Qualcomm to do it, to take it and become the leader of the connected intelligent edge.

老兄，我个人说一句：当我听到你谈论业务时，你忍不住——你脸上挂着大大的笑容，从耳朵到耳朵。就像我跟你说话时感觉不像工作。我不觉得自己有工作，那是我有过的最大特权——我不觉得自己在工作。现在的问题是这给我带来很多麻烦，因为我从不觉得自己在工作，而实际上我一直在工作。你知道，所以我总是急于做事，因为我热爱我做的事情。你和我感觉一样吗？

Dude, I'll tell you on a personal note: when I hear you talk about the business, you can't help but—you have a huge grin on your face from ear to ear. Like it doesn't feel like a job when I talk to you. I don't feel like I have a job, and that's kind of the best privilege I've ever had—is I don't feel like I work. Now the problem is that gets me into a lot of trouble because I never feel like I'm working, where really I'm always working. You know, and so I'm always in a hurry to do things because I love the things that I do. Do you feel the same way I do?

看，我热爱这份工作，但比工作更甚，我热爱这家公司。我热爱公司里的人。所以你意识到的一件事，特别是当你工作与生活平衡很差时，就是你一生中大部分时间都与共事的人在一起。这就像我的大家庭。你知道，这就是我每天来工作的动力——确保我不让那些高通人失望。我们继续 beating 这家伟大的公司，做伟大的事情。

Look, I love this job, but more than the job, I love this company. I love the people in the company. So one thing that you realize, especially when you have a very bad work-life balance, is you spend most of the time in your life with the people you work with. And it's like my extended family. And you know, that's the motivation I have to come to work every day—to make sure I don't let those Qualcomm folks down. And we continue to beat this great company and do great things.

贝索斯谈的是工作与生活的和谐，而不是工作与生活的平衡。就你个人而言，当你——抱歉，这个说法很好。

Bezos talks about work-life harmony, not work-life balance. Personally, when you—sorry, that's a good way to describe it.

是的，我想我学到了新东西。

Yeah, I think I learned something new.

很好。你说过，嘿 Jubin，我饿了就吃，累了就睡。当你的时间被压得太紧，感觉优先级的范围摆得太远时，你会怎么做？比如你怎么重新创造空间？你怎么放松？你怎么从这些事情中抽身，意识到“哦，我刚刚花了太多时间工作”？

Good. So you said like, hey Jubin, when I am hungry I eat, when I am tired I sleep. When your time has been crunched too much and you feel like the spectrum of priorities has swung too far, then what do you do? Like what's your—how do you create space again? How do you chill? How do you get away from some of this stuff and realize like, oh I just spent way too much time working?

我只是太热爱它了。对此我没有好的答案。这是一个进行中的工作。但是的，有时当我感到不堪重负时，我会尝试做点别的事，比如去锻炼，和家人出去。

I just loved it too much. Don't have a good answer for that. It's a work in progress. But yeah, sometimes when I feel that it's overwhelming, I'll try to do something else, like I'll go work out, go out with my family.

那不堪重负的信号是什么？比如内心感觉如何？有没有什么让你觉得“这是个触发点，已经太多了”？

And what's a signal of overwhelming? Like what does that feel like internally? Is there something where you're like, that's a trigger, like it's been too much?

对我来说，我会变得急躁，我会不耐烦。我就不会是个那么好的人。就像我只是有点——然后我会想，天哪，我现在不是个好人，我需要远离一些事情。

For me, I'll get short, I'll get impatient. I won't just be that good of a dude. Like I'm just kind of—and I'm like, oh my god, I am not a good person right now, like I need to step away from things.

不，我还没到那种程度。我不知道有没有好的答案给你。

No, I'm not like that yet. I don't know if I have a good answer for you.

我觉得有过几种情况，我感觉好吧，有很多事情在发生，我需要暂停，重新思考一切。我通常会把那些事情写下来，说什么是真正重要的，那些就是今天要做的事情。这不会经常发生，但这是一个很好的心理练习。

I feel there have been a couple of situations that I feel okay, there's a lot going on, I just needed to pause, rethink everything. And I usually write those things down and say what's really important, and those are the things they're going to do today. And it won't happen that often, but it's a good mental exercise.

有没有你曾经担心过的事情——我知道我们时间不多了，所以我会注意——有没有你曾经担心过的事情？我之前和谷歌云 CEO 托马斯·库里安在一起。组织规模几乎和你的一样大，大约 4.5 万到 5 万人。我问他的问题是，我说 TK，你有没有担心过自我意识的问题，因为有很多人在你的领域工作？我甚至说，你下了这个播客，会有人告诉你“嘿，你今天做得不太好”吗？你有没有担心过作为高通的大 CEO 如此孤立，以至于你实际上得不到所需的反馈循环？这有没有在你脑海中闪过？

Is one of the things that you ever worry about—and I know we're getting short on time here, so I'm gonna be sensitive to that—is one of the things that you ever worry about? I was with the CEO of Google Cloud, Thomas Kurian. Organization is almost the same size as yours, call it 45-50,000. And the question that I asked him, I said, TK, like do you ever get nervous about self-awareness in the sense that there are a lot of people that work in your sphere? And I even said like, you're going to get off this podcast and is anyone going to tell you, hey, you didn't do a very good job today? Like do you ever worry about being so insulated as the big CEO of Qualcomm that you don't actually get the feedback loops that you need? Does that ever cross your mind?

并不真的。我确实花很多时间——这可能是一个不同问题的不同答案——我确实花很多时间与业务连接。比如通常周五对我来说是不出差的日子，当我们有很多会议时，我们会深入很多技术细节。也许因为我的工程背景，这有帮助。我担心的是——我认为作为 CEO，尤其是在像高通这样的企业，需要与业务非常紧密地连接。所以我担心的是确保我花足够的时间与业务连接。但还没有你强调的那种担忧。

Not really. I do spend a lot of time—it's maybe a different answer to a different question—I do spend a lot of time connecting with the business. Like usually Fridays for me is like no travel day, and when we have a lot of meetings we go into a lot of the technical details. And maybe it helps because of my engineering background. The thing that I worry—I think as a CEO, especially in a business like Qualcomm, needs to be very connected with the business. So I worry about making sure I'm spending enough time to be connected to the business. But don't have that concern that you highlighted yet.

好的，这很公平。关于工程背景的最后一个问题，因为你提到了，你骨子里是个工程师。你认为自己是内向还是外向？我具体点：作为公司的代言人是否给你能量？做这样的事情、当门面是否给你能量？还是有时候就是“我今天真的不想做这个”？

All right, that's fair. Last question on the engineering thing, because you brought it up, like you're an engineer by heart. Would you consider yourself introverted or extroverted? I'll be specific: does it give you energy being the spokesperson of the company? Does it give you energy doing things like this, being the front man? Or is it sometimes just like, I really don't want to do this today?

不不不不不。我从来不想深入芯片——我明白。我认为这个问题最准确的答案：在某些事情上我是外向的，在另一些事情上我是内向的。但能够谈论公司、谈论我们正在做的事情、与员工沟通，确实给我能量。我相信——当你让公司所有员工在战略上保持一致时，这是非常强大的。所以我通常会过度沟通，我认为这是我工作的重要部分。我做这个不会感到压力。我实际上认为这是我拥有的一个很好的机会。

No, no, no, no, no. I don't ever want to get into the chips—I understand. I think the most accurate answer to the question: I'm extrovert for certain things, introvert for some other things. But it does give me energy being able to speak about the company, speaking about the things we're doing, communicate with our employees. I believe in—and it's incredibly powerful when you align all of the employees in the company on the strategy. So I usually over-communicate, and I think that's an important part of my job. And I don't get stressed doing it. I actually think it's a great opportunity that I have.

嗯，看，我很感激你在这个小时里战略性地外向了，所以我感谢你。我真的感谢。这很特别。我总是以完全相同的方式结束这些。第一个是：你们在招聘吗？

Well, look, I'm grateful that you were strategically extroverted at this in this hour, so I appreciate you. I really do. This is special. I always close these things the exact same way. The first is: are you hiring?

是的，我们实际上招聘了令人难以置信的——我记不清具体统计数字，但过去 18 个月大约有超过 6000 人。高通在增长，我们在很多领域都在增长。是的，我们在招聘。

Yes, we actually hire an incredible—I don't remember the statistics off the top of my head, but it was kind of in the order of more than six thousand people in the past 18 months. Qualcomm is growing and we're growing in so many areas. And yes, we are hiring.

住在圣地亚哥真是个好的借口。它就像是世界上最被低估的城市。

What a good excuse to live in San Diego. It's like the most underrated city in the world.

是的，我们在全球所有不同地点招聘，但是的，包括圣地亚哥。

Yeah, and we're hiring globally in all the different locations, but yes, including San Diego.

不，不，如果我来为你工作，我百分百会来圣地亚哥。

No, no, if I came to work for you I'd come into San Diego 100%.

请来吧。

Please come.

什么——最后一个问题：grit 这个词对你意味着什么？或者当你听到 grit 这个词时，你会想到什么？

What—last question: what does the word grit mean to you? Or what do you think of when you hear the word grit?

没想到这个问题。这实际上是你唯一准备好的问题——其他每个问题你都不知道。那是你唯一知道的。

Didn't expect that question. It's actually the only question that you were prepared for—every other question you didn't know. That's the only one that you know.

我知道，我不知道。

I know, I don't know.

我想我感觉——一方面，脑海中浮现一些东西：摩擦或牵引。但也有韧性。

I think I feel of—in one hand a little bit of things comes to mind: friction or traction. But also resilience.

Cristiano，谢谢你。谢谢你。很高兴有机会和你交谈。再次感谢你来圣地亚哥。这是我的荣幸。谢谢。

Cristiano, thank you. Thank you. Happy to have the opportunity to talk to you. And thank you again for coming to San Diego. It's my pleasure. Thanks.