让科技重拾乐趣：Carl Pei 谈 Nothing 的使命

卡尔，卡尔·裴，今天能请你来真是太好了。

Well, Carl, Carl Pei, it's really great to have you here today.

谢谢你的邀请。

Thank you for having me.

谢谢你来到这里。这里是伦敦伯克利酒店的 Stadt Guy 播客。我觉得今天在伦敦和你聊天特别合适，因为你是我人脉中少数几个常驻伦敦的创始人之一，这让我觉得挺疯狂的，因为我就是在伦敦出生长大的。虽然我认识很多世界各地的创始人，但常驻伦敦的很少。

Thank you for being here. The Stadt Guy podcast at the Berkeley Hotel in London. I think it's especially fitting that we're talking to you in London today because you are one of the few London-based founders in my network, which I find to be pretty crazy cuz I was born and raised here. Although I don't know that many founders based in London. I'm blessed in a lot of founders around the world, but very few based in London.

是啊，我也这么觉得。我们上次见面时聊过这个。这里的圈子跟其他地方比，人确实不多。

Yeah, same here. I think we talked about it last time we met. The scene here is uh it just doesn't have a lot of people compared to other places.

是啊。但我喜欢你做的产品，喜欢 Nothing 这家公司。Nothing 科技。其实在认识你之前，我是作为顾客接触到它的。我买了你的 Nothing One，我觉得它们叫 Another One。Ear One。

Yeah. But I love the product you're working on. Love the business, Nothing. Nothing tech. I actually was introduced to it as a customer before meeting you. I bought your Nothing One, I think they're called Another One. The Ear One.

Ear One。

The Ear One.

Ear One。那副耳机，我现在还在用。我那边的包里其实还有你新出的黄色降噪款，我也很喜欢。你知道的，我平时对话主要用有线耳机，但运动的时候我会用那些。

Ear One. The ear phones, which I still use. I actually have in my bag over there, your new yellow noise-canceling ones, which I also love. I mostly use the wired earphones, as you know, for conversation, but I use those for sports and for uh

呃，给你介绍一下，我们有 Ear Open。它们挂在耳朵上。所以当你在户外跑步或骑车时，戴着它也能听到周围的一切。

Uh get you hooked up on We have the Ear Open. They hang on your ear. So, when you're running outside or you're when you're biking outside, you can hear everything around you while you're wearing it.

你这么说真有意思。我买了，我有。

It's funny you say that. I bought them. I have them.

哦，你有？

Oh, you have them?

我还没用过，但我有。你大部分科技产品我都有，除了手机，因为我对 Apple 太忠诚了。这个我们待会聊。

I haven't used them yet, but I have them. I have all of your most of your tech, except for the phone cuz I'm too married to Apple. Which we'll get into.

但非常感谢你来到这里，卡尔。能请你来真是太好了。

But thank you so much for being here, Carl. It's uh really great to have you here.

是啊，很期待这次对话。

Yeah, looking forward to this.

欢迎回到 Stadt Guy 播客，与你的主持人 The Stadt Guy 一起环游世界，为内行人和想了解的人分享卓越的故事。

Around the world with your host, The Stadt Guy. We welcome you back to The Stadt Guy podcast, sharing stories of excellence with those in the know for those who just know.

那么，你 6 年前创立了 Nothing？

So, you founded Nothing 6 years ago now?

呃，我们是在 2020 年底开始的。所以大概 4 年半，快 5 年了。

Uh we started at the end of 2020. So, it's been like 4 and 1/2, almost 5 years.

好的。感觉怎么样？

Fine. How has that been?

说实话，就像坐过山车一样。嗯，硬件很难。是啊。呃，听起来像老生常谈，但确实很难。尤其是智能手机。我真的不建议任何人做这个。不是因为我不想要竞争，是啊，而是实在太难了。

It's been a It's been a roller coaster ride, if I'm honest. Um hardware is hard. Yeah. Uh it sounds like a cliché, but it's pretty hard. Like especially smartphones. I really wouldn't recommend anybody to do it. Not because I don't want competition, Yeah. but it's just very difficult.

我的意思是，当我问朋友是否知道 Nothing 时，他们说：“什么是 Nothing？”很多人知道，有些人不知道。我会解释。我希望你能纠正我的定义：一家极具创新性、面向 Z 世代的科技硬件公司，专注于那些可能注重时尚、注重性能，但也喜欢欣赏小玩意设计的细分人群。嗯。他们热爱设计。这让我想起旧的 Game Boy Advanced，透明的，还有旧的，我想是第一款 Mac。是最早的 Mac 之一吗？是第一台透明外壳的 iMac 吗？而且设计也非常简洁。看起来很有型。它传达出对设计的关心和兴趣，超越了 Apple 的世界。这个定义合理吗？

I mean, when when I ask my friends if they know about Nothing, they say, "What is What is Nothing?" Many of them know it, some of them don't. I explain it. I'd love for you to correct my definition as a incredibly innovative and Gen Z-focused tech hardware business that makes devices focused on a niche of people that are maybe fashion-conscious, uh performance-focused, but also love to celebrate the design of gadgets. Mhm. And they love design. It reminds me of the old Game Boy Advanced that was clear and see-through, the old uh the first I think Mac. Was the one of one of the first Macs? Was the first iMac that was clear-shelled? And uh also incredibly sleek in design. It looks very presentable. It puts out a statement of care and interest for design away from just the world of Apple. Is that a a reasonable definition?

呃，定义。实际上我们嗯更新了使命和愿景，因为我们已经运营了几年，它和你说的非常接近。太好了。谢谢。所以，我们的新使命是让科技变得有趣。比如激发人类创造力。我喜欢这个。因为我觉得我们都在科技更鼓舞人心的时代长大。每个新产品都是开创性的或全新的，至少我感到非常乐观。看到所有这些进步，不仅仅是硬件产品，那也是社交媒体刚开始兴起的时代。比如，“哇，我 10 年前遇到的那个人，我可以重新联系上了。”所以，一切感觉都非常乐观。然后对比今天，感觉非常不同。整个世界变得更加消极。比如很多国家经济不好。人们害怕自己的工作，随着 AI 的到来，他们更害怕失去工作，也害怕未来。嗯，我们有贸易战，有太多让人压力大的事情。与此同时，那些过去极具创新力的科技公司，都变成了大型企业，变得超级无聊。所以，这是第一部分，让科技变得有趣。嗯，第二部分，激发人类创造力，对我来说，归根结底，我认为即使在 AI 的世界里，真正能让人类与众不同的部分是我们的创造力。那是我们的超能力。对我来说，当我们谈论创造力时，不仅仅是艺术或设计，而是解决问题。比如创业也是创造力。呃，成为一名优秀的软件工程师也是创造力。那么，我们如何制造不仅好看、好用，而且嗯能帮助人们更有创造力、帮助人们更高效、更不同地工作的产品呢？我认为这在我们旅程的下一个阶段会非常重要。

Uh definition. We've actually um refreshed the mission and vision cuz we've been running it for a couple of years, and it's very close to what you just said. Great. Thank you. So, our new mission is make tech fun. Like to inspire human creativity. Love that. Cuz I think we both grew up in a time when tech was more inspiring. Like every new product was groundbreaking or new and at least I felt a lot of optimism. Like seeing all these improvements, not just on the hardware products, but also that was the time when social media first became a thing. Like, "Wow, this person I met like 10 years ago, I can reconnect with." So, everything felt super optimistic. And then contrast that today, and it feels very different. The entire world has become more negative. Like the the economy's not doing well in a lot of countries. People are afraid of their jobs with AI coming, they're even more afraid of their jobs and they're afraid of the future. Um we have the trade war, we have just so many things that are stressful. And at the same time, these tech companies that used to be super innovative in the past, they've all become like big corporate companies and become super boring. So, that's kind of the first part, like make tech fun. Um the second part, to inspire human creativity, for me, it's about like at the end of the day, I think even in the world of AI, the the part that's really going to set humans apart is our creativity. That's like our superpower. Like for me, it's not just about uh art or design when we talk about creativity, it's about solving problems. Like starting a business is also creativity. Uh being a great software engineer, it's also creativity. So, how can we make products that not only look nice and are fun to use, but also um help people be more creative, help people work more efficiently and differently. I think that's going to be really important in the in the next phase of our journey.

这个新定义。和你最初创业的动机非常相似吗？

This new definition. Is it very similar to your initial desire to why you started the business?

所以，过去的是呃让科技再次变得有趣。好的，可以。因为科技变得无聊了，我们需要让它再次变得有趣。好的。我觉得现在它已经更有趣了，所以不是“再次”。好的。就是让科技变得有趣，以激发人类创造力。

So, the past one was uh make tech fun again. Okay, fine. Because tech had gotten boring, we need to make it fun again. Fine. I feel like now it's more fun already, so it's not again. Fine. It's just make tech fun to inspire human creativity.

你最初创业时在做什么？之前。

What were you doing when you first started the business? Prior.

嗯，我之前帮助创建了另一个智能手机品牌，叫 OnePlus。好的，我现在想起来了。是啊，我们创立那家公司时我大概 24 岁。嗯，所以可以说这是第二次，嗯，但仍然很难。是的。

Um I had helped create another smartphone brand before called OnePlus. Okay, I remember that now. Yeah, I was like 24 when we started that company. Um so, you can say this is the second time, um but it's still very hard. Yep.

为什么世界上有这么多软件公司、应用开发者和软件帝国，但硬件玩家却很少？

Why are there so many software businesses, app developers, and software empires, but very few hardware players in the world?

我认为价值链很长。说到价值链，我指的是一个业务的所有不同组成部分。就像我们有很多组成部分。所以，就复杂性而言，就像一家公司里有五家公司。比如如果我们做一个应用，你需要一些设计师、一些产品经理、客户支持和开发人员。我想就这些了。但那只是我们拥有的很小一部分。我们还有供应链、制造、质量控制，比如工业设计，所以硬件设计、软件设计、硬件工程、软件工程。这样的例子不胜枚举。与不同类型的业务相比，你必须同时兼顾太多事情。是的。我认为这就是为什么我们看到过去 10 年里有人尝试，有过几次尝试，但我认为他们没有从问题的整体复杂性入手。我认为他们只看到了问题的一两个部分。是的。我认为这是主要原因。嗯，能够管理复杂性是很罕见的。

I think the value chain is very long. With value chain, I mean all the different components to a business. Like we just have a lot of components. So, it's like five companies within one company in terms of complexity. Like if we make a app, you need some designers, some product managers, customer support, developers. I think that's it. But that's only like we have those. It's a very small part of our business. But we also have supply chain, manufacturing, quality control, like industrial design, so hardware design, software design, hardware engineering, software engineering. Like the list goes on. It's just so many plates you have to spin Yep. at the same time compared to a different type of business. I think that's why the we've seen people try in the last 10 years, there's been a few attempts, but I think they didn't approach the problem from the, you know, overall complexity of the problem. I think they looked at, you know, one or two parts of the problem. Yep. I think that's the main reason. Um being able to manage complexity is it's pretty rare.

作为创始人，是什么让你对管理这种复杂性感到兴奋？

And what made you feel excited about managing that complexity as the founder?

嗯，我是说，首先，我从小就对这类产品超级兴奋。比如拿到第一台 iPhone 和第一台 iPod。第一台 iPhone 只在美国发售。我在欧洲长大。我得找美国的人帮我买，还要付取消 AT&T 合约的违约金，把它弄到这里，越狱才能用别的 SIM 卡。那真是太令人兴奋了。而且我的整个职业生涯都在这个行业。所以如果你让我做别的，我也没有其他领域的经验。而且我觉得——这听起来可能有点自大——但因为之前有太多人尝试过都失败了，如果我不去试一把，那就没人会改变这个行业。因为我相信我和我的团队是唯一有机会尝试这件事的团队。

Um, I mean, first of all, I've been super excited about this category ever since I was a kid. Like getting the first iPhone and the first iPod. The first iPhone was only available in the US. I grew up in Europe. I had to get somebody in the US to buy it for me, pay a penalty fee for canceling the contract with AT&T, get it here, jailbreak it to use a different SIM card. It was so exciting. And my entire career has been in this industry. So if you told me to do something else, I just don't have experience in anything else. And I felt like—this might sound a bit arrogant—but because so many had tried before and failed, if I didn't give it a shot, then nobody's going to change this industry. Because I believe that my team and I were the one and only team that has a shot at trying this.

那么，创立 Nothing 的过程是怎样的？做硬件生意，你从哪里开始？

So, what did starting Nothing look like? Where do you even start with a hardware business?

我们采取了相当不同的方法。我想融资部分对每个人来说都一样，但对我来说，我从来没有融过资。我记得在创立这家公司之前和联合创始人聊天时，我们说：“融资，真有意思。为什么会有人冒着风险给你几百万美元？为什么会有人给你可能亏掉的钱？这太奇怪了。”这太陌生了。那是 2020 年底。然后我们就开始了。所以我做的第一件事是在我长大的斯德哥尔摩待了一段时间。我很幸运，在创业生态圈里有几个创始人朋友。我就挨个敲门问他们：“融资是怎么回事？你怎么融到钱的？”那边的生态圈很小，也很开放，所以一个人把我介绍给下一个人。于是我了解了瑞典创业生态圈里多个人是怎么融资的，然后我可以内化这些经验，因为每个人说的都不一样。我试着把它内化到我们的情境中。我在斯德哥尔摩待了几周，融了 700 万美元的种子轮来启动这个业务。我们就是这样起步的。同时，我们也在联系供应商，找人来提供零部件和制造产品的工厂。

We took a pretty different approach. I guess the fundraising part is the same for everybody, but the context for me is I never had to raise money before. And I remember chatting with a co-founder before starting this company, we were like, "Raising money, that's interesting. Why would anybody give you millions of dollars at risk? Why would somebody give you money that they potentially can lose? That's so strange." It was so foreign. This was late 2020. And then we just got going. So the first thing I did was I spent some time in Stockholm, where I grew up. And I was really lucky to have a few friends in the startup ecosystem as founders. I just went to everybody, knocking on the door and asking them, "What's this fundraising thing about? How do you raise money?" And the ecosystem there is quite small and pretty open-minded, so one person introduced me to the next person. So I got to learn how multiple people in the Swedish startup ecosystem raise money, and then I could internalize it, because everybody said different things. So I tried to internalize that to our context. And I spent a few weeks in Stockholm and raised a $7 million seed to start this business. So that's kind of how we got started. And at the same time, we were reaching out to suppliers to find people to provide the components and the factories to make the products.

嗯。

Mhm.

那部分进行得一点都不顺利。那时候融资相当容易，因为是种子轮。但供应链非常困难。首先，我们想做手机。人们告诉我们，这已经被尝试过很多次了，对初创公司来说行不通。所以我们不想冒这个险。我们不会这么做的。我们就说：“好吧，我们不做智能手机。我们试着通过别的东西来证明自己。”那就是 Ear One。我们当时的理论是，如果我们能设计出一对看起来非常不同、非常酷的无线耳机，而且不只是这样，还能大规模制造和销售，那么人们就会相信我们能做出像手机这样更复杂的产品。所以供应链算是第二条轨道。第三条轨道是品牌和设计语言。在那里我也超级幸运，因为我认识了斯德哥尔摩的 Teenage Engineering 团队。我当时在斯德哥尔摩融资。有一天我去他们的办公室拜访，和他们的 CEO Jesper 聊了 40 分钟。我们握了手，说：“让我们为世界打造一款最受欢迎的手机吧。”

That part didn't go very smooth at all. The fundraising was quite easy at that time, since it was a seed. But the supply chain was very difficult. First, we wanted to make phones. People told us it's been tried so many times, it doesn't work for a startup. So we don't want to take this risk. We're not going to do this. And we're like, "Okay, let's not make smartphones. Let's try and prove ourselves through something else." Which is the Ear One. Our theory back then was if we could design a pair of wireless earbuds that look very different, look very cool, and also not just that, but also manufacture and sell it at scale, then people would trust us to create a more complicated product like the phone. So the supply chain was kind of the second track. And the third track was the brand and the design language. There I was also super lucky because I had gotten to know the Teenage Engineering guys in Stockholm. I was in Stockholm at that time raising money. And one day I just visited them in their office and had a 40-minute chat with their CEO Jesper. And we shook hands and we said, "Let's make one of the most popular phones for the world."

他们之前做过哪些项目和产品？

What are some of the projects and products they worked on prior?

Jesper 是个传奇。我觉得他是百年一遇的创意天才。我真的建议你请他上播客。实际上，我在瑞典长大的时候，他的创意作品对我影响很大，而我当时并不知道。因为我觉得他是从广告起家的。所以 Acne，那家瑞典公司，他们之前也有一个创意部门。我想他是联合创始人之一，并且领导了那个部门。所以我觉得很多真正标志性的瑞典广告，你无法忘记，因为它们太经典了——比如那段旋律可能还萦绕在你脑海里——那都是他做的。哇。然后我觉得在那之后，他转而创立了 Teenage Engineering。我还听说他曾经是瑞典最大的兰博基尼收藏家。现在不是了，但曾经是。不错。他是个非常有趣的人。他创造了 Nothing 的整个设计语言和调色板。

Jesper is a legend. I think he's a once-in-a-generation creative. I really recommend you to have him on the podcast. Actually, as I was growing up in Sweden, his creative work was really impactful on me without me knowing it. Because I think he started off doing advertising. So Acne, the Swedish company, they also had a creative arm before. And I think he was one of the co-founders and leading that. So I think a lot of the really iconic Swedish advertising that you just can't forget, because it's so iconic—like the melody might still be stuck in your head—that was all him. Wow. And then I think after that he shifted to start Teenage Engineering. And I also heard that he used to be Sweden's biggest collector for Lambos. Not anymore, but at one point in time he was. Nice. It's a very interesting person. And he came up with the entire sort of design language and palette of Nothing.

是的，是的，是的。所以我们大致聊了愿景。

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, we roughly talked about the vision.

我们一开始讨论的一件事是，科技界深受 Apple 的影响。每个人都活在 Apple 的阴影下。如果你去城里其他科技店看看，它们看起来就像不同颜色的 Apple 店。每当 Apple 发布新产品，每个人都会跟随并改变他们的设计语言。所以我们做的思想实验是：想象一下如果历史以不同的方式发展。想象一下如果今天是一个不同的国家成为超级大国。那个国家最好的科技公司会是什么样子？所以让我们试着忘记 Apple 的存在。从零开始，尝试定义一个新的宇宙。所以在设计轨道上，我们首先从寻找大量灵感开始。不仅来自科技产品，还有电影、家具设计、室内设计、不同的零售环境。只是试图建立一个情绪板，然后把这个情绪板发展成我们自己的设计语言。然后我们在内部出版了一本书。那是我们最早做的事情之一。那实际上是我们的第一个产品。

One thing that we talked about in the beginning is that the tech world is so influenced by Apple. Everybody's living in Apple's shadow. If you visit some of the other tech stores around town, they just look like Apple stores with different colors. Whenever Apple releases a new product, everybody kind of follows and shifts their design language. So the thought experiment we had was: imagine if history played out in a different way. Imagine if a different country was a superpower of today. What would the best tech company of that country look like? So let's try to forget that Apple even exists. Start from scratch and try to define a new universe. So on the design track, we first started with looking at a lot of inspiration. Not just from tech products, but also movies, furniture design, interior design, different retail environments. Just trying to get a mood board in place, and then took that mood board and developed it into our own design language. And then we published a book internally. That was one of the first things we did. That's actually our first product.

像是一本设计语言书？

Like a design language?

我们做了七八本这样的书。是的，一本设计书。设计语言加上我们未来产品的概念。那就是我们的起点。所以我觉得这些就是主要的轨道。

We made seven or eight copies of the book. Yeah, a design book. Design language plus concepts for our future products. That's where we started. So I think those were kind of the main tracks.

那么在设计执行方面，这如何发展成第一部手机的呢？

And then how did that grow into the first phone in terms of the design execution?

这非常痛苦，因为我们在这里处理设计的方式是相当系统化的。从设计语言开始，然后一切都必须遵循那个设计语言。那不是我过去的经验。在我过去的经验里，我们只是说：“你知道，我们需要做一款手机。那就给我们做 40 个不同的变体，我们挑最喜欢的那个。”我觉得很多公司都是这样运作的。那会产出单个漂亮的产品。

It's very painful, because the way we've approached design here is quite systematic. Starting with a design language, and then everything has to follow that same design language. That wasn't my past experience. In my past experience, we just said, "You know, we need to make a phone. So just make us like 40 different variants and we'll just pick the one we like the most." I think a lot of companies work like that. That yields individually beautiful products.

但随着时间推移，你发布了很多产品，设计语言上却没有一致性。然后转向一种文化，设计师在公司里拥有最大的权力，其他所有人都必须服从。比如所有工程师，他们只能按照设计师的设计去做。

But as you go through time and you release a lot of products, there's no consistency in the design language. So, then shifting to a culture where designers have the most power in the company and everybody else has to follow. Like all the engineers, they just have to do whatever they design.

嗯。

Mhm.

那非常痛苦，也非常不同。嗯，所以这是工程方面的情况，但在供应链方面仍然非常非常困难。因为我们是在疫情期间创办这家公司的。我不知道你还记不记得，在 2020、2021 年有很多芯片短缺。

It was very painful and very different. Um so, that's kind of on the engineering side, but then on a supply chain side it was still really, really difficult. Cuz we started this company during COVID. And I don't know if you remember like in 2020, 2021 there were a lot of uh chip shortages.

嗯。

Mhm.

所以，我们已经到了准备量产手机的地步。嗯，手机里有成千上万个组件。

So, we had gotten to a point where we were ready to mass produce the phone. Uh phone has like thousands of components in it.

嗯。

Mhm.

但有一个组件缺失了。嗯，那是一个连接屏幕和主板的小组件。

And there was one component missing. Um it's a small component that connects the screen to the motherboard.

好的。

Okay.

它叫做 IC 芯片。我们无法采购到 IC 芯片，因为供应链中断了。嗯，我们到处去求人。我大概跟当时我们行业里每一位 CEO，每一位竞争对手的 CEO 都谈过。

It's called an IC chip. We couldn't source IC chips because there was a supply chain disruption. Um We went begging like everywhere. I've probably spoken to every CEO uh every competitor's CEO in our industry at that time.

哇。

Wow.

试着去获得引荐，试着去恳求，想各种角度。嗯，你知道，一个角度就是：“嘿，我只是个有梦想的年轻人。即使我们是竞争对手，你也应该支持我。我不会构成威胁，我会是个小角色。”

Try trying to get intros, trying to beg, like thinking about angles. Um you know, one angle was just, "Hey, I'm just a young person with a dream. Like even though we're competitors, you should support me. Like I'm not going to be a threat. I'm going to be a small"

团队也尝试了自下而上的方式。比如试着跟芯片供应商的销售团队谈。嗯，最终我觉得事情是这样发展的：嗯，其中一家芯片供应商，我们团队从底层，从销售团队那里接触了他们。然后我也得到了他们董事长的引荐。所以，我们见了面，我觉得这种上下夹击的方式奏效了。好吧，但那压力非常大。

The team also tried from the bottom up. Like tried to talk to the sales teams at the chip suppliers. Um eventually I think what happened was uh one of these chip suppliers our team approached them from the bottom from the sales team. And then I got an intro to their chairman as well. So, we met up and I think that sandwich kind of worked. Fine. But it was very stressful.

当我看 Nothing 并把它与其他任何硬件品牌和业务进行比较时，我发现除了设计和品牌语言之外，它的选址也极其不同。因为对我来说，硬件和手机一直关乎的是广泛的触达。我们是一个创造力和生产力的平台。因此，我们开在最繁忙的商业街上。想想 Apple Store、Microsoft Store，它们一直是“无论你是谁，我们都能为你增加价值”。那一直是它们的定位，因此，在零售方面，我们开在每个人都在的地方。你的店，也许你在苏豪区 Supreme 旁边有一家店。是的。

When looking at nothing and comparing it to any other hardware brand and and business I find that the placement aside from just the design and the brand language is incredibly different as well because to me hardware and phones have always been about abundance of access. We are a platform for creativity and a platform for productivity. And therefore, we're on the busiest high streets. If you think about the Apple stores, the Microsoft stores they've always been we can add value to you no matter who you are. That's always been the pitch and therefore, we're available on the roads retail wise where everyone is. Your store maybe you had a store next to Supreme in Soho. Yep.

对吧？还在那里。

Right? Still there.

好的，你在苏豪区 Supreme 旁边有一家店。我去过那家店。那个街区完全不同，因为我觉得如果你在 Supreme 购物，参与滑板文化，不管你是否真的滑板，但你是苏豪区 Supreme 人群的一部分，你在那一带闲逛，你在很多方面都认同自己是一个局外人，我不属于商业街。这才是我属于的地方。这里的人理解我，认同我的价值观。这就是 Nothing 让我产生共鸣的地方。购买 Nothing 的人想要处于那个核心的外围，而不是核心之中。仅仅是零售选址这个简单的决定，就让我作为消费者看得很清楚。我想知道这是否是创始人的本意。

Okay, you have a store next to Supreme in Soho. I've been to that store. And that neighborhood is is entirely different because I think if you shop at Supreme and you take part in skate culture whether or not you skate, but you're part of that Soho Supreme crowd and you hang around that area you identify in many ways as an outsider as I don't belong on the high street. This is where I belong. This is where people understand me and share my values. And that's what resonates about nothing to me. It's people who buy into nothing want to be on the outsides of that of that core and not in the nucleus. And just something as simple as the retail decision made that fairly clear to me as a consumer. I'm wondering if that was the intention as a founder.

嗯，就是感觉对了。实际上这相当偶然。所以，我们当时在寻找地点，Supreme 旁边的那个空间刚好空出来了。

Um it just felt right. It was actually quite opportunistic. So, we were scouting for locations and the space next to Supreme just got free.

好的。

Okay.

所以，我就想：“我们别找了，就拿下它吧，因为 Supreme 外面每天都排着长队。”

So, I'm like, "Let's just like stop looking. Let's just get it because there's a huge line outside of Supreme every day."

是的。

Yep.

所以，如果他们在外面排队，他们就会看到我们的店。所有人。这样我们就获得了免费的曝光。

And so, if they line up outside, they have to see our store. All the people. So, then we get free exposure.

你们是在排队的那一侧吗？我忘了。还是在右侧？

Are you on the queue side of the store? I forgot. Or on the right side?

嗯，我们在 Supreme 的右侧。

Uh we're on the right side of Supreme.

好的，完美。太棒了。是的，是的，排队的那一侧。是的。太完美了。

Okay, perfect. Yeah, awesome. Yeah, yeah, the queue side. Yeah. It's perfect.

那有没有转化为 Supreme 类型的顾客变成 Nothing 类型的顾客？

Has that translated into a Supreme type customer becoming a nothing type customer?

我觉得如果你看看我们的用户群，有很多相似之处。所以，第一，就智能手机用户群而言，我们是全世界最年轻的。

I think if you look at our user base, there is a lot of similarities. So, one, we are the youngest in the entire world in terms of like our user base for smartphones.

好的。

Okay.

嗯，我觉得我们的平均年龄应该在 40 到 26 岁左右。

Um I think our average age should be around 40 26

哇。

Wow.

我们用户的平均年龄。好的。三星的平均年龄大约是 45 岁。哇。而且他们有一种趋势，就是年龄在往上走。嗯，如果你的品牌越来越老，那其实相当危险。

years old for our users. Okay. Samsung's average age is like 45. Wow. And they they have a trend where it's kind of going up. Uh it's actually quite dangerous if you have a brand that's getting older and older.

嗯。

Mhm.

那意味着市场份额会随着时间推移而下降。

That means the market share will decrease over time.

嗯。

Mhm.

嗯，我们的用户，如果你问他们为什么购买产品，嗯，软件实际上是手机的第一大原因。第二个原因是设计。对于耳机，设计是第一位的。我觉得那也和街头文化非常相似。嗯，最后，我觉得在所有安卓品牌中，我们拥有最大比例的苹果用户转投安卓品牌。嗯，所以我觉得这不是完全对等，但直觉告诉我，它正朝着正确的方向前进。

Um Our users are also if you ask them like why they buy the product um the software is actually number one reason for the phones. And the second reason is design. For the earbuds, it's design number one. And I think that's very similar to street culture ear holes as well. Um I think lastly we also have the greatest amount of Apple users switching to an Android brand percentage-wise out of all the Android brands. Well, so I think it's not a like-for-like, but the gut feeling is saying that it's moving towards the right direction.

如你所知，我是一个死忠的苹果用户，也是苹果前员工。你觉得像我这样的人从苹果生态切换到 Nothing 的驱动因素会是什么？

I am a die-hard Apple user as you know and ex-Apple employee. What would your assumed driver for a person like me be to switch from the Apple ecosystem to nothing?

手机还是音频产品？

For phone or for audio products?

两者都行，或者任选其一。

Both. Or either.

音频产品很简单，因为每个人都有一副一样的白色苹果 AirPods。所以对于那些感觉更有个性、想要表达自己个性和特质的人来说，这就是他们购买我们音频产品的原因。事实上，音频产品的大多数用户都是苹果用户。超过一半目前连接的是 iPhone。

Audio products is pretty simple like everybody has the same white Apple AirPods. So for those who feel more individual and want to express their individuality and personality, that's why people are buying our audio products. In fact for the audio products the majority of the user users are Apple users. So more than half are currently paired to an iPhone.

嗯，对于智能手机来说，情况就完全不同了，因为如果你习惯了苹果生态，很难切换出去。嗯，我个人觉得有些行为是故意设计成让切换变得更难的。我相信，作为一家如此庞大和成功的公司，他们不必依赖这些拐杖。他们可以在创新上竞争，而不是试图保护并让切换变得更难。

Um for the smartphone it's a very different story because if you're used to the Apple ecosystem it's very hard to switch away. Um I personally feel like some of the behaviors are intentionally um created to make it harder to switch. I believe as a company that's that big and that successful they don't have to lean on these crutches. They can compete on innovation instead of trying to protect and make it harder to switch away.

嗯，但现在我们看到美国司法部、欧洲有对苹果提起反竞争诉讼的行动。所以希望你知道，那在未来可能对我们有帮助。

Um but now we're seeing movements in the the US with the DOJ in Europe um lawsuits against Apple for being anti-competitive. So hopefully you know that that could help us in the future.

你对 Nothing 的愿景是什么？

What's your vision for Nothing?

嗯，我觉得目前愿景就是成为第一的科技品牌。我们其实也有一个愿景声明：为下一代创造领先且最受喜爱的科技公司。嗯，这里有几个关键词。领先意味着市场份额领先。所以在这个目标消费者群体中，我们需要拥有最高的市场份额。作为初创公司，我们不可能在全世界所有类型的人群中都领先。所以我们得先聚焦一个群体。嗯，最受喜爱，不言自明。还有下一代。所以我觉得，你知道，看看我们目前的用户群非常年轻。我认为我们真的有一个独特的机会成为这里的第一品牌。非常令人兴奋。

Um I think for now the vision is just to be the number one uh tech brand for So we actually have a vision statement as well. To create the create to create the leading and most loved tech company for the next generation. Um there's a few kind of a few couple of few keywords here. Leading means market share leading. So among this target consumer we need to have the highest market share. Like as a startup we can't be leading across the entire world without types of people. So we got to focus on one group first. Um most loved kind of self-explanatory. And next generation. So I think it's you know looking at our current user base being very young. I think we really have a unique opportunity to become the number one brand here. Super exciting.

到目前为止你们卖出了多少台设备？

How many devices have you sold so far?

嗯，我觉得差不多 1000 万。

Uh I think almost 10 million.

嗯，是的，那是很多人了。是的。

Well, yeah it's uh it's a lot of people. Yeah.

但在整个行业的背景下，这非常小。

But very small in the context of the overall industry.

是的，绝对如此。而且他们中的大多数人都不带手机壳。这个我不清楚，我们没有这方面的洞察。至少我看到人们拿着 Nothing 手机时，从来不带壳，因为他们喜欢炫耀背面，而且闪光灯覆盖了手机背面的大部分，对吧？我也见过有人带壳。所以，而且他们的壳上有一个为闪光灯留出的开口。

Yeah, absolutely. And most of them carry a phone with no case. That I don't know. We don't have insights there. At least when I see people carrying the Nothing phones it never has a case cuz they love to show off the back and also the flash covers most of the back of the phone, right? We also I've also seen people with the case. So it's and the cases they have a cutout fine for the light flash.

是的。太棒了。当许多硬件制造商认为我们已经接近设备能容纳的极限时，让设备功能更丰富的过程是怎样的？

Yeah. Amazing. What's the process like of making a device more featureful when many hardware manufacturers think we've reached nearly the peak of what we can pack into a device?

嗯，其实我以前也这么觉得，就像每个人都共享相同的供应商。嗯，相同的处理器供应商，相同的屏幕，相同的内存，相同的电池。嗯，所以越来越难差异化，就像我们能获得的东西，其他人也能获得。所以这就是为什么我们除了设计部分（我们拥有最好的设计团队之一），但设计其实很容易被复制。比如如果苹果想复制我们的设计，他们明天就能做到。

Um I also felt that way actually like everybody shares the same suppliers. Um the same processor suppliers, the same screen, the same memory the same battery. Um so it's getting hard to differentiate like whatever we have access to everybody else also has access to. So that's why we've apart from the design part which we have one of the best design teams, but actually design is pretty easy to copy. Like if Apple wanted to copy our designs they could do it tomorrow.

你们无法保护任何设计吗？

You can't protect any of the design?

呃，有一点。有一点。不是特别能保护。

Uh a little bit. A little bit. It's not super protectable.

嗯。

Mhm.

但他们不会这么做，纯粹出于商业原因，因为我们的设计更小众。嗯。他们非常大众化。所以如果他们复制我们，他们会失去市场份额，因为很多人不会想买我们的产品。对吧？所以嗯，这是作为这个领域唯一初创公司的一个好处。就像我们可以非常迎合特定消费者群体，而其他人都很庞大。如果他们复制我们，他们的业务会萎缩。嗯，所以我们在设计上可以非常大胆，而他们不能，因为他们必须持续交付数字。但在软件方面，我认为有更多差异化的机会，因为坦白说，软件体验已经很长时间没有真正改变了。就像在 iPhone 之前，有 PDA 的时候，仍然是同样的应用图标。你按下应用图标，进入应用，然后回到主屏幕。嗯，我认为有机会从根本上改变我们使用这些设备的方式。

But they won't do it out of a pure business reason because our design is more niche. Mhm. They're very mass. So if they copied us they will lose market share because a lot of people wouldn't want to buy our products. Right? So um that's one benefit of being the only startup in the space. Like we can be very catered to a specific group of consumers whereas everybody else they're huge. If they copy us they're going to degrow their business. Um so we can be very daring in terms of design whereas they can't because they have to keep delivering numbers. On the software side though that's where I think there's a lot more opportunity to differentiate because frankly the software experiences haven't really changed for a very long time. Like even before iPhones when there was like the PDAs it's still the same like app icons. You press the app icon, you go to the app and then you go back to the home page. Um I think there's an opportunity to fundamentally change how we use these devices.

我的意思是，你们已经卖出了 1000 万台设备。你们设备的平均成本大约 500 美元。嗯，但那是 1000 万，包括耳机和手机。

I mean you've sold 10 million devices. The average cost of your devices is around $500. Um but that's like 10 million both earbuds and phones.

好吧。那么平均价格可能大概是 100 到 200 美元左右。

Fine. So then the average would probably be like 100 200 or something like that.

好吧。是的。作为创始人，这需要付出什么？考虑到你为了让公司走到今天所做出的牺牲，你的个人生活和平衡是怎样的？

Fine. Yeah. What does that take as a founder? And what's your personal life and balance like given the amount of sacrifice you have to to make to bring the business to where it is today?

嗯，我现在很放松。但以前不是这样。我们刚开始的时候，我对一切都压力山大，每件事对我来说都是大事。嗯，当我们筹集到第一笔资金时，我感到压力巨大，因为现在我们要对别人的钱负责。比如，如果他们把这笔钱投资到股市，他们会得到一定的回报。我们需要提供比那更高的回报。所以现在我要对别人的财务负责。当我们雇佣第一个员工时，我也压力巨大。如果这个人加入另一家公司，他们会得到职业发展和薪资增长。所以现在我们必须提供比那更多的价值。嗯，到了某个程度，前半年我出现了心脏问题。嗯，每 20 秒，每 20 秒我的心脏就会剧烈跳动，我不知道原因。所以我去了医生那里，他们给了我一个挂在肩膀上的机器来监测心脏，他们只是说你压力太大了。没事的。它会，它会，呃，它会消失的。所以那就是开始的地方，但现在和那时相比我非常放松。嗯，我觉得只是因为一切对我来说都太新了。呃，经历它，和它共存，现在回头看就像个笑话。比如，你为什么要为那些事情压力山大？你有更大的问题要处理。所以我觉得这只是随着时间而来的。嗯，现在需要什么？现在我非常放松，呃，当然工作时间长，但我觉得我们在做的事情非常有趣，这段旅程有起有落。但如果没有起起落落，那不是很无聊吗？就像看一部非常有趣的电影，对吧？如果一部电影没有这些情绪波动，它就不会是一部好电影。

Um I'm pretty chill now. It wasn't always the case. When we just started I was so stressed out about everything like everything was a big deal for me. Um when we raised our first money I felt super stressed because now we're responsible for somebody else's money. Like if they had invested this money into the stock market they would get a certain return. We need to deliver more return than that. So now like I'm responsible for for somebody else's finance. When we hired our first employee I was also super stressed. If this person joined another company they would have gotten like career growth and salary growth. So now we have have to deliver more than that. Um it got to a point where the first half year I had a like a heart problem. Um every 20 sec every 20 seconds my heart would beat like really hard and I didn't know like what the case was. So I went to the doctor and they gave me a a machine to hang on my shoulder to monitor the heart and they just said you're stressed. It's fine. It will it will uh it will go away. So that's kind of where it started, but now I'm very chill compared to that. Um I think it's just about everything was so new to me. Uh going through it uh living with it and now looking back it's like a joke. Like why would you be stressed out about those kind of things? You have much bigger problems to to deal with. So I think it just comes with time. Um What does it take now? Now I'm pretty pretty relaxed and uh sure long hours, but I think it's super fun what we're doing and this journey has ups and downs. But wouldn't it be boring if it didn't have ups and downs like it's kind of like watching a really fun movie, right? Like if a movie didn't have like the these mood swings it wouldn't be a good movie.

确实如此。是的。这是一种乐观的看法。我相信你的很多朋友和偶然遇到你的人都会建议你进入他们认为你应该进入的产品类别。我们选择专注于两个领域，即音频和手机。为什么你不好奇拓展其他产品类别呢？

That's true. It's true. It's an optimistic way of looking at it. I'm sure a lot of your friends and people who cross paths with you randomly suggest product categories they think you should step into. We've chosen to focus on two which is audio and phone. Why have you not been curious to tap into other product categories?

我认为这是因为你必须，我不知道对于其他类型的产品，但对于电子产品，你必须真正尊重这个类别。嗯，我的意思是，一开始我们认为耳机很容易。我们做手机，那很难，耳机没问题。但实际上，耳机非常复杂，我们后来发现，因为你必须在很小的空间里塞进很多东西。它几乎就像一个迷你手机。它有蓝牙，有天线，有电池，有充电。嗯，我们不得不克服很多工程挑战，即使是耳机。所以我们不应该轻率或随意进入不同的类别，我们需要非常认真地对待我们进入的其他类别。我认为第二，我们必须考虑我们作为一家公司要去哪里，以及这个产品如何真正帮助我们到达那里。嗯，因为我不想处于一个传统行业。呃，我认为电脑几乎是一种传统行业。平板电脑，我真的不知道那会有什么好处。我宁愿我们的下一个类别更未来主义，而不是来自过去。因为耳机和智能手机已经很成熟了。它们已经存在了很多很多年。所以与其做另一个成熟的类别，我认为我们正处于旅程中应该开始引领行业的时刻。我们需要几年时间才开始、热身、打好基础，但我认为对于接下来的任何东西，我们应该开始引领行业，因为我认为这个行业没有太多的领导力。

I think it's because you have to I don't know for other types of products, but for electronics you have to really respect the category. Um what I mean by that is like in the beginning we thought earbuds is easy. Let's just we made phones like that's hard and earbuds no problem. But actually earbuds are very complicated we found out later because you have to pack in so much in so little space. It's almost like a mini phone. It has Bluetooth. It has antennas. It has battery. It has charging. And um we had to you know overcome a lot of engineering challenges even for the earbuds. So we shouldn't be kind of light-hearted or just randomly go into different categories that we need to be very serious about other categories that we enter. I think secondly we have to think about where we're going as a company and how this product really helps us get there. Um cuz I don't want to be like in a traditional industry. Uh I think computers are kind of like a traditional industry almost. Tablets I don't really know what the benefit of that would be. Like I would rather have our next category be more futuristic than from the past. Cuz earbuds and smartphones are already quite established. They've existed for many many years. So instead of doing another established one I think we're at a point in our journey where we should start taking the lead in the industry. We needed a couple of years just to get started, get warmed up, get the foundations built, but I think for what whatever's next, we should start leading the industry because I don't think there's a lot of leadership in this industry.

是的。在我和 Eric Schmidt 的那期节目中，我简要讨论了我与手机的连接感，嗯，我几乎觉得自己像个赛博格，因为它简直是我自己的数字延伸。但我的想法和我想在手机上做的事情仍然被我的慢拇指所连接。嗯，有时我的声音，如果我想做听写，但从我的世界和我的思想到数字世界的桥梁仍然被那种交互所减慢。它可以稍微快一点，但仍然受到那种物理交互的限制。

Yeah. On my episode with Eric Schmidt, I briefly discussed how connected I feel to my phone Mhm. and that I nearly feel like a cyborg because it's literally a digital extension of myself. But my thoughts and the things I'd like to do on my phone are still bridged by my slow thumbs. Mhm. Sometimes my voice if I want to do dictation, but still the bridge from my world and my mind to the digital world is slowed down by that interaction. It can get slightly faster, but it's still limited by that physical interaction.

你认为数字产品的第二阶段是否真的首次打破了这一点？通过我们与设备互动、将想法和欲望传达给设备的方式，以及我们可能通过屏幕消费内容的方式。

Do you think phase two of digital products actually breaks that for the first time? By the way we engage and transfer our thoughts and desires into the device, but also the way we might consume through a screen.

是的，我认为未来几年这将发生根本性转变。我觉得很多人都有同样的愿景。我们有不同的策略和路径去实现它。但归根结底，关键在于创建一个真正了解你的系统。这可以在手机上实现，因为手机应该是最了解你的设备，因为你花在它上面的时间最多，用它做的事情也最多。因此，凭借这些关于你的信息，它几乎可以成为你的数字孪生。它知道你所有的偏好，知道你最重要的人，也知道你去过哪里。

Yeah, I think it's going to fundamentally shift in the next couple of years. I think a lot of people see the same vision. We all have different strategies and different paths to get there. But I think ultimately, it's about creating a system that really knows you. And it can be done on a phone because the phone should be the device that knows you the best because you spend the most time on it, you do the most things on it. So, with that information about you, it can almost become your digital twin. It knows all your preferences. It knows your most important people and knows where you've been.

确实如此。

That's true.

当然，我们还要应对很多隐私问题。我们必须让人们完全掌控体验，决定分享什么、不分享什么，使用什么、不使用什么。还要能够删除他们不希望我们拥有的数据。所以，我认为人们对未来也相当担忧。

Of course, there's a lot of privacy issues that we have to navigate. We have to give people full control over the experience, what to share, what not to share, what to use, what not to use. Being able to delete data that they don't want us to have. So, I think people are quite scared also about the future.

嗯。

Mhm.

但如果我们能弥合这些担忧，我认为我们可以打造出真正与众不同的东西。所以，了解你是第一部分。其次，我认为如今你使用电脑或手机时，这是一个手动过程。比如，首先你得想出一个主意。是的。嘿，我想做这件事。然后你得想，好的，我得做 X、Y、Z 才能完成。需要不同的步骤。与此同时，你还会收到一堆通知。短信、邮件等等。所以，这非常分散注意力。我认为未来，想法会主动来找你，因为它了解你。是的。它了解你，了解你的背景，知道你在哪里，知道你的日程。你想做这五件事吗？如果你想做，只需说“是”或按“是”。然后，它就会替你完成，而不是让你手动经历所有这些步骤。是的。这样，人们就可以把更多时间花在真正关心的事情上，而电脑或操作系统会接管大量生活琐事或非必要工作，我认为这能让更多人发挥创造力。

But if we're able to bridge those concerns, I think we can build something really, really different. So, knowing you is the first part. I think secondly, today when you use a computer or phone, it's a manual process. Like first, you have to come up with an idea. Yeah. Hey, I want to do this thing. And then you have to think, okay, I got to do X, Y, and Z to get that done. Different steps to get that done. And at the same time, you have a bunch of notifications coming in. Text messages and emails and whatnot. So, it's super distracting. I think in the future, the ideas will come to you because it knows you. Yeah. It knows you, it knows your context, it knows where you are, it knows your calendar. Do you want to do these five things? And if you want to do it, just say yes or press yes. And then instead of going through all these steps manually, it'll just do it for you. Yeah. So, this way, you know, people can spend more time on things they really care about and take away all like the computer or the OS will take away a lot of the life admin or non-essential work, which I think will enable more people to be creative.

那么，你认为这会如何转化为手机的实际硬件，比如屏幕尺寸？因为在我有生之年，屏幕越来越大。部分是为了内容，也为了交互。我现在在手机上能做的事情比以往任何时候都多，部分原因也是屏幕这么大。如果我个人需要做的事情更少，而我的手机能作为我的智能体、作为我的数字孪生，借助 AI 替我做得更多，那我的屏幕能变小吗？

So, how do you think that translates into the actual hardware of the phone with things like screen size? Because in my lifetime, screens have only gotten bigger and bigger. Partially for contents, but also for interactions. I can do more than I ever could have on my phone now partially because the screen is so big as well. If I have to personally do less and my phone can do more on my behalf as my agent, as my digital twin with the AI, can my screen be smaller?

我会喜欢更小的屏幕。这些手机放在口袋里感觉很笨重。但另一方面，人们经常用手机消费媒体。是的。娱乐、Netflix、YouTube、Instagram。所以，这就是平衡。我认为即使理论上手机能为你做很多事情，你甚至可以说它不需要屏幕，但实际上，人们还是想在设备上消费内容。所以，我仍然认为我们将处于一个屏幕相对较大的世界。

I would love a smaller screen. These phones feel really bulky in the pocket. But the other side of the coin is people use the phone a lot for consumption of media. Yeah. Entertainment, Netflix, YouTube, Instagram. So, that's the balance. I think even if the phone can do a lot of things for you theoretically, you can say it doesn't even need to have a screen, but actually, people want to consume content on their devices. So, I still think we're going to be in a world where the screens are relatively large.

有点像，我猜不想要屏幕的人可以选择可穿戴设备。但他们仍然想要屏幕。是的。就像那些说他们不想要屏幕的人。我的意思是，所有小屏手机，比如苹果曾经有像 iPhone SE 这样的小屏手机，他们取消了它，因为没人买。是的。因为人们说他们想要，然后你造出来了，他们却不买。

Kind of like I guess the people who don't want the screen can go with a wearable. But they still want the screen. Yeah. Like people who say they don't want the screen. I mean, all the small phones like Apple used to have a small like iPhone SE, they canceled it because nobody bought it. Yeah. Because people say they want it, then you make it, they don't buy it.

嗯。所以，我认为有时候，你知道，在实际购买决策时，消费者说他们想要的和他们实际表现出的行为是不同的。

Mhm. So, I think sometimes, you know, when it comes to a practical purchasing decision, what consumers say they want and what they act like how they actually behave is different.

当然，除了 Nothing Phone 和我非常忠诚的苹果设备之外，过去几年真正让我兴奋的一款手机是这款三折叠华为，它能变成一台巨大的平板。如果我能从苹果生态中转移出来，我确实能看到自己使用它。因为我基本上可以随身携带我的平板，只需把它折叠成这部相当薄的手机。你对折叠屏怎么看？

Other than Nothing Phone, of course, and the Apple devices that I'm very loyal to, the one phone that really got me excited over the past couple of years is this tri-folding Huawei that turns into a huge tablet. And I actually could see myself using it if I could transfer out of the Apple universe. Because I could basically have my tablet with me wherever I go and just fold it into this fairly thin phone. How do you feel about folding screens?

我真的还没搞清楚它的使用场景。所以，我有两个使用场景。我在外出时用手机。当我需要写一封长邮件时，我需要用笔记本电脑上的键盘。当我需要认真写东西并真正专注时，就是这样。所以，我不知道平板会适合哪里。我最近买了一台 iPad，因为我想也许我会在飞机上看电影，但我太懒得预先下载电影了。所以，它实际上从未被用过。

I really just haven't really figured out the use case for it. So, I have two use cases. I'm on my phone when I'm on the go. And when I need to write a long email, I need to use a keyboard on my laptop. When I need to write something serious and really focus, that's it. So, I don't know where a tablet would fit in. I got an iPad recently because I thought I would maybe use it to watch movies on a flight, but I'm too lazy to pre-download the movie. So, it's never been used, actually.

好吧。

Fine.

所以，对我来说，我真的不知道它适合哪里。而且从我们行业的角度来看，你知道，每年售出 12 亿部手机，其中只有 1000 万到 2000 万部是折叠屏。所以，这个市场太小了，我们无法尝试去占领，因为我们整体规模也太小。所以，对于一家小公司来说，市场的一个非常小的部分，我认为那只会带来很少的销量。那会是一个亏损。就像那个产品会亏损。

So, for me, I don't really know how that fits in. And from our industry perspective, you know, 1.2 billion phones are sold a year, out of which 10 to 20 million are foldables. So, it's just too small of a market for us to try and capture because we are too small in general. So, a very small part of the market for a small company, I think that will yield very little sales. And that would be a loss. Like that product would be a loss.

我对华为的产品印象深刻，因为折叠屏已经出现好几年了。我最大的担忧是他们只是拉伸了用户界面。就像他们只是把手机界面拉伸成不同的宽高比。然而，你知道，当苹果有了 iPhone，然后他们推出了 iPad，所有应用看起来都不一样了。那是为 iPad 屏幕量身定制的。但我认为华为现在已经做到了。但早期的折叠屏没有做到。看起来真的很糟糕。

I'm pretty impressed by the Huawei product because foldables have been around for a couple of years. And my biggest concern was they just stretched the UI. Like they just stretched the phone UI to be in a different aspect ratio. Whereas, you know, when Apple had iPhone and then they came out with the iPad, all the apps looked different. It was tailor-made for the iPad screen. But I think Huawei has done that now. But the earlier generations of the foldables didn't do it. It looked really bad.

是的。现在对我来说，它的使用场景主要是内容创作、编辑和记笔记。我使用笔记本电脑或 iPad 而不是手机的原因，就是能够并排打开两个窗口，真的。这就是关键。能够一边浏览和滚动某个内容，一边输入其他内容，或者为某件事记笔记，或者开着笔记打电话。在手机上，这有点难做到。有点可行。有时你退出 Zoom 通话，会有那个小气泡，但你无法真正多任务处理。

Yeah. And now the use case for me would be mostly content creation and editing and writing down notes. Just the reason why I use my laptop or my iPad instead of my phone is being able to have two windows side by side, really. That's what it comes to. Being able to browse and scroll something while typing something else or writing notes for something or being on a call with notes open. On the phone, it's a bit more difficult to do that. It is kind of doable. Sometimes you get out of a Zoom call and you have that little bubble, but you can't really multitask.

嗯。所以，多任务处理对我来说非常重要，是我日常工作的一部分。而拥有双倍屏幕尺寸，我想我就能同时做两件事。这是主要的。你可以在一边看到参考资料，在另一边工作。

Mhm. So, multitasking to me is very important as a part of my day-to-day job. And having double the screen size, I think I'd be able to do two tasks at once. That's the main thing. You'll be able to see on one side like for reference and work on the other side.

完全正确。就是这一点。否则，你说得对。我可以用我的笔记本电脑。是的。我是笔记本电脑型的人。

Exactly. That's the one thing. Otherwise, you're right. I can just use my laptop. Yeah. I'm a laptop person.

所以，如你所知，我在伦敦出生和长大，但很幸运在美国学习。我去了巴布森学院，那是美国一所创业学校。

So, as you know, I was born and raised in London, but I had the blessing of studying in the US. I went to Babson College, which is an entrepreneurship school in the US.

而且他们有着令人难以置信的创业精神，我认为这部分是受到美国梦的影响和启发，当然，这种渴望创造新事物的梦想遍布全世界，但不可否认，它在美国比在英国和欧洲其他地区更为普遍。不幸的是，我看到这种情况越来越少。你认为欧洲发生了什么，导致创业欲望和冒险精神如此停滞不前？

And they have this incredible entrepreneurial spirit, which in part I think is influenced and inspired by this American dream, which exists all over the world, of course, this desire to start something new, but it's undeniably more present in the US than it is in the UK and the rest of Europe. And I unfortunately do see that happening less and less. What do you think is going on in Europe for there to be such a stagnation of entrepreneurial desire and risk-taking?

我认为这是周期性的。就像你看到的那个梗图：艰难时期造就强者，强者创造好时代，好时代造就弱者，弱者又迎来艰难时期。这是一个循环。而且我认为欧洲，你知道，曾经是世界中心。然后美国接管了，现在中国正在接管。所以，很快欧洲就会进入这个周期的低谷阶段。所以，我认为现状是自然的。人们曾经拥有美好的生活、伟大的经济和伟大的创新。但那已经是很久以前的事了。所有这些伟大让人们变得更加悲观、更加懒惰。但我认为欧洲正在或将会或应该逐渐意识到，他们现在处于食物链的底部。当你处于底部时，你只能往上走。所以，我认为即使我们什么都不做，事情也会这样发展。

I think it's cyclical. Like you've seen the meme photo like tough times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. Weak men create tough times. It's a cycle. And I think Europe, you know, used to be the center of the world. And then US took over and now China's taking over. So, very soon Europe will be in this part of the cycle where it's on the back foot. So, I think the current status quo is natural. People have had a great life, great economy, and you know, great innovation. But that was a long time ago. And all that greatness made people more pessimistic, more lazy. But I think Europe is gradually or will or should gradually wake up to the fact that they're now at the bottom of the food chain. And when you're at the bottom, you just have to go up. So, I think even if we don't do anything, it's still going to happen this way.

所以，你知道，我在瑞典长大，但我职业生涯的前 10 年是在中国度过的。所以，我之前从未在瑞典工作过。我很感激能成为其中的一部分，因为我从未见过与中国不同的职业道德。然后来到英国创办这家公司，回到欧洲是一次巨大的逆向文化冲击。比如，曾有一段时间，我觉得我们不应该继续在英国做这件事。

So, you know, I grew up in Sweden, but the first 10 years of my career were in China. So, I had never worked before in Sweden. I feel pretty grateful to be a part of that because I had never seen a different work ethic than the one that was in China. And then coming to the UK for building this company, it was a huge reverse culture shock going back to Europe. Like at one point in time I felt like we shouldn't keep doing this in the UK.

你的公司。

Your business.

是的。我们应该搬到别的地方，比如美国。但后来我改变了主意。这里也有优秀的人才，但他们很稀有。有人想努力工作，想建立雄心勃勃的事业，但不是每个人都是这样。所以我们必须在识别合适人选方面做得更好。而且我认为欧洲有巨大的未开发机会。比如欧洲拥有世界上最好的大学，很多伟大的大学。我认为问题是，当这些真正有才华的年轻人加入那些不太有雄心的公司时，他们会被污染。就像他们的心态，你知道，我们通过吸收周围的东西来学习，对吧？

Yeah. We should move somewhere else, like US maybe. But then over time I changed my mind. There's great talent here as well, but they're rare. There's people who want to work hard and want to build something very ambitious, but it's not everybody. So we just got to get a lot better at figuring out who's a good fit. And I think there's a massive untapped opportunity in Europe. Like Europe has the best universities in the world. Like a lot of great universities. I think the problem is like when these really talented young people join companies that are quite not ambitious companies, they get polluted. Like their mindset, you know, we learn by absorbing what's around us, right?

绝对如此。

Absolutely.

如果他们周围的每个人——他们的经理、他们的老板、老板的老板——都不太有雄心，那么他们就会安于现状。所以我的新理论是，如果我们能在这些人刚出校门时抓住他们，他们仍然敢于梦想，仍然充满雄心。他们没有被外部公司污染。我们可以自己培养他们，让他们成为欧洲新一代最聪明、最有雄心的人。

If everybody around them, their manager, their boss, their boss's boss, they're all not very ambitious, then they just kind of settle into that status quo. So my new theory is like if we can get these people when they're fresh out of school, they still dare to dream, still have a lot of ambition. They're not polluted by external companies. We can train them ourselves to become like the new generation of some of the smartest and most ambitious people in Europe.

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This podcast is brought to you by Pou Belle by the Stand Guy, allowing you to express all the things you love and all the things you may question on interchangeable charm jewelry that can be combined to create bracelets, necklaces, handbag accessories and much more from Ice to Matcher and Reformer Pilates to sauna buckets and a pair of skis. All the things you love and even the things you question can be expressed through Pou Belle. What are some of those skills that you think are so essential in a team member, in a founder, or even in an entrepreneur, someone who's innovating within a business, that you think you struggle to find in people and you try to build in people?

我认为乐观是其中之一。就像世界是非常可塑的，世界是非常柔软的。你可以塑造它、改变它，但我认为很多人相信现在的世界就是一直以来的世界。

I think optimism is one. Like the world is very malleable. Like the world is very soft. You can shape it and change it, but I think a lot of people believe that the world currently is the world that's always been here.

而且它永远都是这样，但事实并非如此。

And it's how it's always going to be, but that's not true.

它总是在变化。也许世界的这个角落在过去 100 年里变化不大，或者没有太大变化。但地球作为一个整体变化得非常快。所以我认为那种乐观——每个人都能有所作为，我们作为一个团队能有所作为——可能是最重要的事情之一。然后是雄心。我不确定雄心能在多大程度上被教导，但那些在很小的时候就非常努力取得最好成绩、非常有竞争力、进入最好的学校、参加大量课外活动等等的人，他们确实很有雄心。也许我们只需要挑选他们。

It always changes. Maybe this pocket of the world doesn't change that much or hasn't changed that much in the last 100 years. But Earth as a whole is changing very quickly. So I think that optimism that everybody can make a difference, we can make a difference as a team. I think that's probably one of the most important things. And then ambition. I'm not sure how much ambition can be taught, but surely the people who work really hard when they were really young to get the best grades, to be really competitive, to get into best schools and who do a lot of extracurricular activities and all that stuff. They are pretty ambitious. Maybe we just pick them.

在你雇用的年轻一代（Z 世代、X 世代）身上，有没有哪些特质是你在千禧一代身上看不到的，因为他们成长环境非常不同，接触的媒体也非常不同？

Are there any things that you see in a young person that you hire of this new generation, Gen Z, Gen X, that you don't see in millennials, because they grew up very differently with very different exposures to media?

我认为总体而言，很多 Z 世代相当自以为是。他们想走捷径。而且不太有韧性。比如容易感到压力。对琐碎的事情有非常强烈的感受。

I think overall there's a lot of Gen Zs who are quite entitled. Who want to take the easy way out. And who are not very resilient. Like getting stressed out easily. Taking trivial things and having very strong feelings about them.

也许这是 Z 世代的问题，我不知道。我见过一些这种情况，我怀疑这是年龄问题还是代际问题。我仍然不确定。

Maybe that's something with Gen Z, I don't know. I've seen some of that and I wonder if it's an age thing or generation thing. I'm still not sure.

是的，也许是因为他们在新冠疫情期间长大。他们错过了几年与真人社交的机会。也许这很酷。他们没有经历现实的检验。

Yeah, maybe it's like they grew up during COVID. They missed a couple of years of socializing with real people. Maybe it's cool. They didn't get the reality check.

没有恶霸来震慑他们。

The bully didn't shake them.

是的，我认为你会得到，我的意思是你必须有一些创伤。你必须经历过一些艰难的事情来塑造你。如果你的生活非常轻松，非常平淡，非常安逸，我认为这真的不能让你为成功做好准备。

Yeah, I think you get, I mean you have to have some trauma. You have to have been through something hard to shape you. Like if your life is very easy, it's very kind of plain and very chill, I think that really doesn't set you up for success.

你认为那些拥有稳定和富足生活的人，是否应该寻找某种程度的创伤或匮乏，以培养更多的严谨和坚韧？

Do you think people who are blessed with stability and abundance should look for some level of trauma or scarcity in order to develop more rigor and more grit?

我认为首先，不是每个人都必须成功。或者你可以以许多不同的方式成功。比如拥有一个美好的家庭、培养优秀的孩子、把一项运动做得很好。在我看来，这些都是成功。所以你不必创办公司或在职业生涯中非常强大。但我确实认为，如果你想在某件事上做得非常好，创伤会很有帮助。就我个人而言，作为一个看起来与周围环境不同、可能不了解所居住国家的所有社会习俗、有点觉得自己是局外人的移民，所有这些，没有同龄人那么多钱，这些在后来都对我帮助很大。而且有句谚语，对吧？财富不会延续超过三代。我认为这非常正确。我在一期播客中谈到过这一点。

I think first of all, everybody doesn't have to be successful. Or you can be successful in many different ways. Like having a great family, raising great children, doing a sport really well. Like those are all successes in my mind. So you don't have to start a company or be really strong in your career. But I do think trauma helps a lot if you want to be really good at something. I think for me personally, as an immigrant who looked different than my environment and who might not have known all the social customs in the country I lived in and kind of feeling like an outsider, all that stuff, not having as much money as my peers, those have really helped me in later years. And there's this saying, right? Like wealth doesn't survive more than three generations. I think it's very true. I spoke about this on an episode of the podcast.

我上过一门叫「财富的创造、保值和毁灭」的课。第三代通常会毁掉财富。所以如果有一天我有孩子，我会想让他们经历某种创伤。算是为他们好。

I took a class called wealth creation preservation and destruction. And the third generation usually destroys the wealth. So if one day I have kids, I would want to put them through some kind of trauma. Like for their own good.

有意思。是啊，如果你只是过一种安逸的生活，我觉得很难成为一个完整的人。你不觉得吗？无论你在富足的环境中怎么养育孩子，人生经历还是会以不同的方式给他们带来家庭之外的创伤。

Okay. It's interesting. Yeah, if you just have a chill life, I think it's very hard to become a full human. Do you not find that no matter how much you raise your kids in a life and setting of abundance, the human experience will still bring them trauma in different ways outside of your household?

是的，但那样的话，小事情就会变成创伤，而不是更大的事情。这很合理。所以说得通。但人生有很多艰难时刻。所以我觉得那并不能真正让他们为成功做好准备。

Yes, but then small things become trauma instead of bigger things. It's reasonable. So that makes sense. But life has a lot of difficult times. So I think that wouldn't really set them up for success.

我第一次见你是在一家俄式桑拿房。那次很酷的一点是，我小时候夏天上过军校，大家都穿一样的制服。所以你真正了解一个人，是靠他们的真实和说的话，而不是他们的外表、穿着和举止。那次在桑拿房见到你和我们的朋友亚历克斯以及其他创始人就很酷，因为每个人都只裹着一条毛巾。我完全看不出谁是谁，他们怎么打扮、穿什么。没有任何迹象表明某人看起来像银行家、像科技创始人、像派对达人。什么迹象都没有。

I met you at a banya for the first time. What was cool about that moment is kind of like I went to military academy during summers growing up. Everyone was wearing the same uniform. So you really get to know people based on their truth and the things they say versus how they look and dress and hold themselves. And that was cool about meeting you and all the other founders at the banya with our friend Alex because everyone was just with this towel on. I had no signals of who anyone was, how they dressed, what they wore. There was just no indication of someone looked like a banker, looked like a tech founder, looked like a party person. There's no indication of anything.

我看到的是，我们当时一起玩的那个社交圈里的朋友群体，来自非常不同的领域，但在通过乐观创造价值和发现价值这一点上，价值观高度一致。

What I saw is that your friend group that we were hanging out with in that social group were incredibly different from very different fields but were quite value aligned on the idea of creating value and finding value through optimism.

你对伦敦和在伦敦工作非常兴奋，而很多创始人正在离开。你对制造手机和硬件非常兴奋，而这个领域的许多企业已经倒闭。那个圈子里的人在自己的领域、自己的事业和自己的家庭里都分享着同样的乐观。所以我很好奇，乐观对你有多重要？你是主动践行这一点，还是这只是你性格中潜意识的一部分？

You were very excited about London and about working in London while a lot of founders were leaving. You were very excited about creating phones and hardware while many businesses in the category had been shutting down. And the people in that circle share that same optimism in their own fields and own businesses and their own households. So I'm curious how much optimism means to you and do you actively practice that or is that a subconscious part of your personality?

这是乐观。也有人把它描述为「毫无根据的傲慢」。或者现在可能叫「主角光环」。但从小我就觉得自己与众不同。而且我很容易被周围的人惹恼。所以当我在学校表现不好时，那不是我的错，是老师的错。我潜意识里一直有这种想法。就像反权威。我给学校的一位老师做过一个网站。没人知道是我。但你可以往老师脸上扔飞镖。你可以留言。所以我小时候做了很多调皮捣蛋的事，我一直有这种反权威的倾向。所以我总觉得我与众不同。我不知道这从哪来的。我没深究过，但我隐约知道事情总会解决的。即使有时我们遇到困难，我们也在正确的轨道上，只需要想办法解决。但不知道这从哪来。

It's optimism. I've also heard it described to me as unfounded arrogance. Or maybe it's called like main character energy now. But ever since I was young I thought I was different. And I was easily annoyed by people around me. So when I didn't do well in school it wasn't my fault. It was the teacher's fault. Like I've always had that in the subconscious somehow. Like anti-authority. I made a website for one of our teachers in school. Nobody knew that was me. But you could throw darts on the teacher's face. You could leave messages. So I did a lot of like mischievous things when I was younger and I've always had this kind of anti-authority thing. So I always felt I was different. So I don't know where that's coming from. Haven't searched deep enough, but I kind of know that things are always going to work out. And even though sometimes we have challenging times, like we're on a great trajectory and we've just got to figure it out. But don't know where it comes from.

你发现身边大多数人，比如你选择交往的朋友，都和你的价值观和身份一致吗？

Do you find that most of the people around you align with your values and identity, like the friends you choose to hang around?

不幸的是，我一直忙于工作，所以在维护友谊和关系方面做得很差。是的，想到这个感觉不好，但我确实有一群价值观非常一致的朋友。我不能像我想的那样经常和他们一起玩。

Unfortunately, I've been quite busy with work, so I've been really bad at maintaining friendships and relationships. Yeah, it feels bad thinking about it, but I think I have a group of friends who are very value-aligned. I don't get to hang out with them as often as I'd like to.

你觉得这只是过程的一部分，而且你乐于做出这个决定吗？

Do you think that's just part of the process, and it's a decision you're happy making?

是的，我认为这只是我人生这个阶段的必经之路。我会有其他阶段，家庭或友谊变得更重要，但我只需要度过这个阶段。

Yeah, I think that's just part of the course for this stage of my life. I'll have other stages where family becomes more important or friendships become more important, but I just got to navigate through this part.

成长过程中，有很多种手机，对吧？我觉得诺基亚是领头羊。然后是黑莓。有些人用摩托罗拉，有些人在 iPhone 出现之前用不同的东西。还有一款像珠宝一样的设备，我觉得没人真正进入过这个领域，因为手机变得太复杂，和我们的生活融合得太深，奢侈手机制造商跟不上，那就是 Vertu。我记得当时他们一部手机可能要 8000 欧元，简直离谱。他们有鳄鱼皮，有点像为 Loro Piana 或 Hermès 那种消费者准备的，他们想在手机上也拥有最好的材料或产品，把它当作珠宝宣言。还有礼宾服务，你可以按一下侧面。你觉得今天在这个超高端类别里，还有科技设备或可穿戴设备的机会吗？

Growing up, there were lots of phone types, right? I think Nokia led the way. Then it became BlackBerry. And some people had Motorolas, some people had different things before the iPhone came in. And there was one device which was like jewelry that I think no one really ever stepped into because phones just became too complex and too deeply integrated in our lives for a luxury phone manufacturer to keep up, but that was Vertu. And I think at the time they were like 8,000 euros maybe for a phone, something insane. And they had like crocodile skin, and it was kind of like for that Loro Piana or Hermès type consumer who wanted to have the best of the best materials or product in their phone as well, and treated that like a jewelry statement. And also had this concierge service that you could tap on the side of. Do you think there's still opportunity for a tech device or wearable in that category that's ultra-premium today?

我觉得有，但我觉得不是关于材料或那些东西。我认为真正的奢华来自于口袋里拥有真正的科幻技术。那才是驱动产品奢华感的东西。希望有一天我们能为此做出贡献。

I think so, but I think it's not about materials or that stuff. I think the real premium will come from having really sci-fi technology in your pocket. Like that's what's going to drive the luxury feeling for the product. And hopefully one day we can contribute to that.

那是像 AI 这样的东西吗？

Is that something like AI?

不一定是 AI。我觉得实际上 AI 大多是扯淡。我实际上正试图在公司内部禁用「AI」这个词。

Not necessarily AI. I think actually AI is quite BS. I'm actually trying to ban the word AI within the company.

为什么？

Well, why?

因为如果你想想我们的产品和竞争对手，每个人都在谈论 AI。苹果去年发布了 Apple Intelligence，一切都是 AI。他们卖了一个大愿景。他们把期望值设得超高。然后一年后，他们的广告就像 gemojis。AI 表情符号。你不能在这里设定期望，然后交付个屁。所以我认为大多数 AI 基本上是在试图解决不存在的问题。这是一项很棒的新技术。每个人都在试图弄清楚如何使用它。没人弄清楚，所以我们只是在做非常渐进的事情，然后过度推销。所以我觉得这基本上是扯淡，我认为大多数 AI 公司都会失败。

Because if you think about our products and our competitors, everybody's just talking about AI all the time. Apple released Apple Intelligence last year, and everything's AI. They sold a big vision. They set the expectation super high. And then a year later, their ads are like gemojis. AI gemojis. You can't set an expectation here and then deliver like nothing. So I think most AI is basically trying to solve problems that don't really exist. There's this wonderful new technology. Everybody's trying to figure out how to use it. Nobody's figuring that out, so we're just doing really incremental things and overselling it. So I think it's pretty much BS, and I think most companies in AI are going to fail.

但你知道，对于行业来说，我们有堆栈的几个部分。我们有大型语言模型。它们非常资本密集。你需要很多钱来买 GPU 训练模型等等。其中很多主要是维持运行的电力。但还有英伟达的芯片。

But you know, for industry, we have a few parts of the stack. We have the large language models. So they're very CAPEX-heavy. You need a lot of money to get GPUs to train the models and all that stuff. A lot of it's mostly electricity that keeps it running. But also the Nvidia chips.

但因为那个领域有太多投资，现在竞争非常激烈。比如有些人很容易在那个领域获得融资，但需求是这些模型有很大的需求，但现在我们看到，一家公司有一个模型，是世界领先的。两个月后，别人又推出一个世界领先的模型。所以大家都势均力敌，然后改进变得越来越渐进。

But because there's been so much investment in that space, there's so much competition now. Like it's very easy for some people to get funded in that space, but the demand is there's a big demand for these models, but now we see that one company has a model, it's world-leading. Two months later, somebody else comes out with a model that's world-leading. So everybody's kind of neck and neck with each other, and then the improvements are becoming more and more incremental.

所以这意味着利润率实际上会下降。如果你无法实现差异化，比如当我们在产品中使用 AI、使用大语言模型时，我们就会像招标一样去竞价。是的，我只需要这个。谁给我最好的价格、最好的质量，我就用谁的。所以没有品牌可言。消费者永远不会看到那些产品。所以我认为大语言模型领域可能只有少数几家，或者两三家，公司能活下来。其余的都会被淘汰。再加上开源模型现在也和商业模型并驾齐驱。所以一旦可能，我们就会停止使用商业模型，直接转向开源。

So what that means is actually the margins are going to decrease. So if you can't differentiate, like I will just when we use AI in our product, when we use large language models, we're just going to bid it out like an RFP. Yeah. I just need this. Who gives me the best price for the best quality? I'll use that. So there's no brand. Like consumers will never see those products. So I think large language models is a place where probably only a handful or like two or three companies can survive. The rest are going to be wiped out. And then to add to that, we have open-source models that are also kind of neck and neck with the commercial models. So as soon as we can, we're going to stop using the commercial models and just go to open source.

你能为听众描述一下开源模型和私有模型之间的区别吗？

Can you, just for the audience, describe the difference between an open-source model and a privately held model?

是的，开源模型基本上就是训练方式公开的模型。其他人可以看到你是如何训练的。他们可以修改，然后训练自己的模型。而商业模型，所有这些都是专有的。这是个大秘密。他们投入了大量工程人才来研究他们独特的训练配方。但现在开源模型也一样好，这意味着即使是一个孩子，只要看看开源模型，如果他们有算力，就可以自己训练一个变体。所以大语言模型领域就是一场逐底竞争。

Yeah, so an open-source model is basically a model where how you trained it is open. So other people can see how you trained it. They can make modifications and then train their own models. So for commercial models, all that is proprietary. It's a big secret. They've invested a lot of engineering talent into figuring out their unique cocktail of how to train the model. But now the open ones are just as good, so what that means is even a kid can just look at an open-source model, and if they have the compute power, they can just train a variant of that themselves. So it's a race to the bottom on large language models.

第二个大趋势是硬件变得越来越强大。如果你看看智能手机，我们的手机现在有专门的 AI 处理器。今天它仍然很小，功能也不是很强，但每一代都会变得越来越强大。这意味着我们做的越来越多任务，不必发送到商业模型，不必发送到云端，直接在本地完成。这对隐私更好。我们不必把用户数据分享给其他第三方公司。

And the second big trend is that the hardware is getting more and more powerful. So if you look at smartphones, our phones have a dedicated processor for AI now. Today it's still very kind of small and not very powerful, but in each generation it's going to become more and more powerful. So that means more and more of the tasks that we do, they don't have to be sent to the commercial models. They don't have to be sent to the cloud. They just do it locally. It's better for privacy. You don't have to share the user data to some other third-party company.

所以我认为做大语言模型会非常困难。那么好吧，如果你不能投资大语言模型，你做什么？现在大趋势已经应用了。我们如何以新颖的方式应用这项技术？但到目前为止，我认为除了两个场景之外，还没有真正有用的产品。一个是聊天。唯一流行的聊天产品是 ChatGPT。如果你看用户数量，和 ChatGPT 相比其他都不重要。至少小 100 倍。哇。所以他们会做得很好，我相信，因为他们现在是一个消费品牌。但对其他所有人来说，要真正打造那个产品会非常困难。另一个有一些用例的场景，我们在软件产品和硬件产品中都看到了，就是会议纪要。对吧？比如我们有这个电话或会议，然后你得到一个摘要。我见过这家公司 Business Plot 在做 Pause，那是一个硬件产品。Rnola 是一个软件产品。我认为那有产品市场契合度。这类产品。但除此之外，现在一切都只是空洞的炒作。所以这就是为什么我想禁止它。你知道，我们看待它的方式是，这是一项非常强大的新技术，但它不是产品。要做出伟大的产品，你必须把它作为原料，然后找出消费者或用户的痛点，然后优雅地为他们解决。但只有这样才是好产品。

So I think it's going to be really hard to do large language models. And then okay, if you can't invest in large language models, what do you do? Now that the big trend is applied. How do we take this technology and apply it in novel ways? But so far, I think there's been no product that's been really useful apart from two scenarios. Like one is chat. And the only chat product that's popular is ChatGPT. If you look at the user numbers, like nothing else matters compared to ChatGPT. It's like a 100 times smaller, at least. Wow. So that they're going to do well, I believe, because they're a consumer brand now. But it's going to be really tough for everybody else to really build that product. The other scenario that has some use case, and we've seen that with software products and hardware products, is meeting notes. Right? Like we have this call or this meeting, and then you get a summary. I've seen this company Business Plot is doing like Pause, that's a hardware product. Rnola is a software product. I think that has product-market fit. Those kind of products. But beyond that, everything is just kind of empty hype right now. So that's why I want to ban it. Like you know, the way we think about it is this is some really powerful new technology, but it's not a product. So to make a great product, you have to take this as an ingredient, and then figure out a pain point that consumers have or users have, and then solve it really elegantly for them. But only then is it a good product.

所以只谈产品。好处是什么？它如何工作？不要谈 AI。

So just talk about the product. What is the benefit? How does it work? Don't talk about AI.

那么关于大语言模型，你说这有点像逐底竞争。你如何在硬件中应用 AI，你认为硬件会因此走向何方？

So with the large language models, you said it's kind of like a race to the bottom. How do you apply AI in the hardware, and where do you see the hardware going as a result?

是的，我认为这里我们也看到了一些行业中的牺牲者。我实际上为这些创始人鼓掌，因为他们对现有所有产品有不同的愿景。他们试图发明，在这个新世界里，设备是什么样子？所以有一个别在衬衫上的别针。我还见过这种小的红色设备，有一个非常模拟的屏幕，你只需滚动。

Yeah, I think here we've also seen a few casualties in the industry. And I actually applaud these founders because they have a different vision to what all the products that currently exist. They're trying to invent like in this new world, how do devices look like? So there was this pin that you put on your shirt. I've also seen this like small like red device with like a very analog screen where you just scrolled.

哦，是的，Rabbit。

Oh yeah, Rabbit.

Rabbit。我认为这些都是非常棒的尝试，我们应该为人们的尝试鼓掌。但对我来说，我认为硬件应用 AI 的最佳设备是智能手机。因为所有这些新设备，有很多风险。比如你必须教用户忘记他们当前思考世界的方式，然后学习一种新方式。当你拿到那些产品时，它们有未来潜力，但今天它们几乎无法工作。所以那座桥很难跨越。而且你知道，我们只有两个口袋。我一个口袋放钥匙，另一个口袋放手机。没有空间放第三个设备。要把智能手机从人们的日常生活中竞争掉非常困难。再加上你不想每天给两个设备充电。所以我认为智能手机是最好的。它拥有最多的用户群。它拥有最多的用户信息。没有其他产品能比。

Rabbit. I think these are all really great attempts, and we should applaud people for trying. But for me, I think the best device for applied AI for hardware is the smartphone. Because all these new devices, there's a lot of risk. Like you have to teach the user to forget about the current way they think about the world, and you know, learn a new way. And then when you get those products, they have future potential, but today they barely work. So it's that bridge is really hard to cross. And you know, we only have two pockets. I have keys in one pocket, I have my phone in my other pocket. There's no space for a third device. It's very hard to compete away the smartphone from somebody's daily life. And to add to that, you don't want to charge two devices every day. So I think the smartphone is the best. It's got the most user base. It's got the most information on the user. There's no other product.

所以很多人问我，“嘿，你为什么还在做手机？智能手机已经存在 20 年了。”

So a lot of people ask me like, "Hey, why do you still make phones? Phones have existed for 20 years, smartphones."

这就是原因，因为我认为我们使用这些产品的方式将发生根本性转变。

That's the reason, because I think there's going to be a fundamental shift in how we use these products.

我经常和朋友讨论，20 年后我们是否还会拥有看起来和感觉上类似这样的东西，还是完全不同的？通常是五五开。好吧，如果不同，候选是什么？我的候选是 AR 眼镜。所以，只是增强现实，仍然以类似的方式参与。但是，我戴着眼镜，看到手里有一个实际上不在手里的手机，或者看到平板电脑或屏幕。我仍然看到自己参与类似风格的内容。我不认为我余生会一直用 YouTube 和 TikTok，大概吧。我只是不知道我是否会用这个。我有一种感觉，不久后我会戴上眼镜。

I have this conversation quite often with friends of in 20 years do we think that we're still going to have something that looks and feels sort of like this or will it be entirely different? It's usually 50/50 split. Well, and if it's different, what are the candidates? My candidate is AR from glasses. So, just augmented reality of still engaging in a similar method. But, I'm wearing glasses and I'm just seeing a phone in my hand that's not actually in my hand or seeing a tablet or seeing a screen. I still do see myself engaging with similar style of content. I don't think I'll use YouTube and TikTok for the rest of my life, probably. I just don't know if I'll be on this. I have a feeling I'll be wearing glasses at some point soon.

我还没有接近，我仍然对这种形态持开放态度。我非常怀疑，因为我不想在头上戴东西。感觉像负担，而且我会头疼。但是，谁知道呢？也许未来它会成为主要形态，然后我们也可以做出我们的版本。

I'm not close to like I'm still open-minded to that form factor. I'm quite skeptical because I don't want to wear something on my head. Like it just feels like a burden and I get a headache. But, who knows? Maybe it becomes a major form factor in the future and then we can also make, you know, our take on that.

我认为在机器人技术方面会有有趣的事情发生，关于如何将 AI 应用于硬件？

I think there's going to be interesting things happening in robotics in terms of how do you apply AI to hardware?

你这么说是什么意思？

What do you mean by that?

比如如果我必须选择一个产品来应用 AI，我可能会选择机器人。

Like if I had to pick a product to apply AI to, I would probably choose robots.

为了让产品更好。好吧。嗯，我觉得机器人比眼镜更令人兴奋。

To make the product better. Fine. Um, I think robots are more exciting than glasses.

机器人很酷。是的。你会养一个机器宠物吗？

Robots are cool. Yeah. Would you get a robot pet?

我会的。是的。就像你记得大约 20 年前，索尼有那种 AIBO 机器狗，非常可爱。那种宠物。不，我想它叫 AIBO。

I would. Yeah. Like you remember like 20 years ago or something, this Sony had these AIBO really cute robots. The pets. No, I think it's AIBO, I think it's called.

好的。是的。

Okay. Yeah.

我觉得类似那样的东西会非常酷。

I think something like that would be really cool.

那确实会。我是说，你现在也是一位内容创作者了。嗯，我很喜欢。过去一年我看到你作为创始人一直在制作视频。这相当罕见，尤其是在以短视频为主的社交媒体内容中。这与主题演讲风格的视频截然不同。我以前看过你的一次主题演讲式发布。非常酷。我记得那是在一个黑暗的房间里，中间有一个讲台。但现在你在做完全不同的事情，分享知识，谈论作为创始人的挣扎，而很多创始人往往避而不谈。作为创始人，你为什么迈出了进入内容和社交媒体这一步？

It would be. I mean, as you're now a fellow content creator. Mhm. Which I love. I've seen over the past year you've been making videos as a founder. Which is quite rare, especially in short-form social media focused content. Very different to the keynote style videos. I've watched one of your sort of keynote announcements before. Really cool. It's like in this dark room with like a podium in the middle, I remember. But now you're doing something entirely different where you're sharing knowledge, talking about your struggles as a founder, which many founders try to shy away from. Why have you made that leap into content and social media as a founder?

嗯，这始于，你知道，我们有一个大问题。大问题是我们太小了。因此，我们的营销预算与苹果相比也微不足道。我想有人告诉我，三星每年在美国，仅在美国，就花费 10 亿美元用于广告。

Um, it started with like, you know, we have this big problem. The big problem is that we're too small. And our marketing budgets as a result are also tiny compared to Apple. I think somebody told me that Samsung spends a billion dollars a year in the US, just in the US, for advertising.

哇。

Wow.

那么，我们如何与之竞争？这不可能，对吧？如果我们做同样的事情，拍摄非常无聊的广告，放到电视上，我们永远无法竞争，因为我们那点钱与 10 亿美元的营销预算相比，没人会看到我们的内容。他们只会看到那些大金主。所以，主要问题是如何用更少的投入获得超额的杠杆效应？

So, how do we compete with that? It's impossible, right? If we do the same things, shoot like really boring ads, put them on TV, we're never going to be able to compete because the little money we have in comparison to a billion dollars in our marketing budget, nobody's going to see our content. They're just going to see the big spenders. So, the main problem is like how do you get outsized leverage with less investment?

嗯。

Mhm.

而且我们行业实际上并不擅长内容创作。我觉得其他行业要好得多。经过分析，我们认为这是我们可以独特发挥的地方。我们的团队更年轻。我们不是 Z 世代，但团队里至少是千禧一代。而对于苹果和三星这样的老牌公司，他们的领导团队有点像婴儿潮一代。

And our industry is actually not that good at content creation. I think other industries are a lot better. And after analyzing it, we thought we felt like this is where we could uniquely play. Our team is younger. Like we're not Gen Z, but we're at least millennials in the team. Whereas for these older companies like Apple and Samsung, their leadership teams are kind of boomers.

嗯。

Mhm.

所以，至少我们比他们更容易理解如何在这个新时代沟通。因此，我们觉得我们可以建立独特的竞争优势。去年我们真正开始尝试。只用不多的资源，我们在不同渠道获得了大约 6 亿次观看。这是我们未来想要投入的方向。所以，目前你看到的所有内容基本上都是比较低成本的。但我认为未来我们可以做得更多。而且，从社会角度来看，像 Mr. Beast 或 Speed、IShowSpeed 这样的人，他们所做的是前所未有的。

So, at least it's easier for us to get how to communicate in this new age than for them. So, this is where we felt like we could build a unique competitive advantage. And last year we really started experimenting. Just with not too much resource, we got like 600 million views across our different channels. And it's somewhere we want to invest going forward. So, right now we've like all the stuff you've seen so far is basically kind of low lift stuff. But I think we can do a lot more in the future. And also, just from a society perspective, like people like Mr. Beast or Speed, IShowSpeed. Like what they've done is unprecedented.

嗯。

Mhm.

所以，我认为在当代，有两个巨大的机遇。一个是 AI，一个是内容创作，我们想参与其中。

So, I think in the current generation, there are two really big opportunities. One is AI and one is content creation, and we want to be a part of both.

我很高兴能成为内容创作中非常非常小的一部分。

I'm happy to be a very, very small part of the content creation element.

你扮演了有价值的角色。我很感激。谢谢。

You have a valuable part of it. I appreciate that. Thank you.

我们在 Start Guy 播客上总会玩一个简短的游戏，叫“à la poubelle”，法语里意思是“扔进垃圾桶”，还有“fantastique”，指的是我们庆祝和感恩的一切。我想知道你会把哪两三样东西扔进“à la poubelle”，无论是你所在的行业、你身处的世界，还是任何其他方面。

Something we always do on the Start Guy podcast is play a brief game of 'à la poubelle', which means to the trash in French, and 'fantastique', which is all the things we celebrate and that we're grateful for. I'd love two or three things that you would throw 'à la poubelle' in your industry, in the world you find yourself in, or anything at all.

AI 炒作，扔进垃圾桶。

AI hype, à la poubelle.

好的。

Okay.

悲观主义，扔进垃圾桶。

Pessimism, à la poubelle.

好的，我喜欢这个。嗯，现在说“fantastique”。

Okay, I love that. Um, and now 'fantastique'.

Fantastique。这些天伦敦的天气。绝对有趣，绝对 fantastique。

Fantastique. The London weather these days. Absolutely fun, absolutely fantastique.

天哪。看看这个。太棒了。就是明亮的蓝天。现在几点了？下午 5 点？是的，它真的能改变你的心情。改变一切。

Oh my god. Look at this. It's amazing. It's just bright blue skies. What is it? 5:00 p.m.? Yeah, it's so like it just changes your mood. Changes everything.

我的团队，fantastique。非常敬业。我们用很少的人做了很多事。与我们要对抗的相比，我们的团队非常小。而且团队不断进步，不断变强。所以，非常好，非常棒。

My team, fantastique. Very dedicated. We've done so much with so few people. Like our team is so small compared to what we're up against. And the team just keeps getting better and keeps getting stronger. So, very nice, very good.

很高兴听到。

Happy to hear.

还有我口袋里这部未发布的 Phone 3。Fantastique。

And then the unreleased phone 3 that's currently in my pocket. Fantastique.

卡尔，这期节目对我来说非常有趣。嗯。见到你总是很高兴。这大概是我们第五或第六次有幸相聚了。嗯。但我总是非常兴奋能和你交谈。我认为你是科技界的乐观主义者，这变得越来越罕见了。看到这一点非常酷。而且你是一位杰出的创始人、英国的企业经营者，让创业再次变得酷起来。让手机再次变得有趣。

This has been a super interesting episode for me, Carl. Mhm. It's always good to see you. This is maybe the fifth or sixth time we have the pleasure of hanging out. Mhm. But I'm always extremely excited to talk to you. I think you are an optimist in the world of tech, which is becoming rarer and rarer. It's very cool to see. And that you're an exceptional founder, business operator based in the UK, making entrepreneurship cool again. Making phones fun again.

努力，努力。

Trying, trying.

我非常期待看到你继续取得的所有惊人成就。感谢收听本期 Start Guy 播客。如果你想了解更多，请关注我们的社交媒体频道，包括 Instagram、TikTok、Spotify、YouTube 和 Apple Podcasts。我们期待下周再见。Merci beaucoup。À la prochaine。来自 Start Guy 的拥抱。

And I'm very excited to see all the incredible things you continue to accomplish. Thank you for listening to this episode of the Start Guy podcast. If you're keen to learn more, please follow along by engaging with our social channels on Instagram, TikTok, Spotify, YouTube, and Apple Podcasts. And we look forward to seeing you next week. Merci beaucoup. À la prochaine. And a big hug from the Start Guy.