Nothing 创始人裴宇：让科技重拾乐趣

大家好，下午好。我是 Nicole Kobler，Axios 驻奥斯汀的记者。我写每日的 Axios Austin 通讯，订阅是免费的，欢迎到 axios.com/austin 订阅。请大家欢迎 Carl Pei 上台。

Hi everyone. Good afternoon. I'm Nicole Kobler. I'm a reporter with Axios based here in Austin. I write the daily Axios Austin newsletter. It's free to subscribe. I'd love it if you did at axios.com/austin. Please help me welcome Carl Pei to the stage.

嗨，Carl。嗯，这些座位有点深。好，那我们就从基本开始吧。如果观众还不了解 Nothing 是什么、你的品牌 Nothing 是什么，先给大家补补课。就从描述公司做什么、你在哪里建立它、从哪里起步开始，讲讲这里的成长。

Hi Carl. Yeah, these seats are a little deep. Okay. So let's just start with the basics. Let's catch the audience up here if they are not aware of what Nothing is, what your brand Nothing is. So just start from kind of describe what the company does and where you've built it, where you started it at, like talk about the growth here.

嗯，也许先退一步讲。我成长的时代，科技非常激动人心、鼓舞人心。我是玩着索尼随身听、第一代 iPod、第一代 iPhone 这些设备长大的。正是这些产品让我今天投身这个行业。随着我长大、进入这个行业，事情变得越来越无聊。看起来也没有别人打算改变什么。所以我想，我们为什么不试试呢？至少我们有经验，如果我们不试，也许就没人会试，科技就会无聊很长时间。所以我们从 2020 年底开始，使命是让科技重新变得有趣。我们想创造能激励下一代创意人的产品，就像我年轻时被激励那样。

Yeah, maybe taking a step back first. Like I grew up when tech was really exciting and inspiring. I grew up with gadgets like the Sony Walkman, the first iPod, the first iPhone. And those products were the reason why I am working in this industry right now. And as I got older and started being in the industry, things got more and more boring. And it didn't look like anybody else was going to do anything about it. So I thought, you know, why don't we try because at least we have the experience and if we don't try, you know, perhaps nobody else will and then tech will be boring for a very long time. So we started in 2020 towards the end of 2020 with the mission of making tech fun again. We wanted to create products that inspire the next generation of creatives, just similar to how I was inspired when I was younger.

为什么 2020 年从音频开始？

Why start with audio back in 2020?

嗯，我们想要一个完整的不同产品的生态系统，我们知道智能手机对每个人都是非常重要的产品。我们每天都要用好几个小时，它就像我们最亲密的设备之一。当我们试图做手机时，被所有人拒绝了。所有工厂和供应商都说：“嘿，我们以前听过这个故事。有创始人筹的钱比你多、比你更有名、比你更有能力。他们试过做这个，都失败了。所以我们不再和初创公司合作了。”所以当我们开始的时候，已经有很多初创公司尝试做智能手机失败了。轮到我们时，没人愿意冒险。所以我们退一步说：“好吧，别担心，让我们想想怎么解决。”我们说：“好，我们选另一个品类，无线耳机。”这也是个大品类，因为 2021 年，我想全球卖了 3 亿副。智能手机大约 10 亿部。所以 3 亿仍然很多。我们说：“嘿，我们选另一个大品类，证明我们自己。向世界证明我们能设计出标志性的东西，也能卖很多，然后我们就能获得信任，赢得信任，迈出下一步。”所以我们做了音频。幸运的是，我们卖了不少，卖了大约 60 万副。这让我们能筹集资金，也获得了供应链的信任，去做我们的第一款智能手机。

Well, we wanted to have a full ecosystem of different products and we know that the smartphone is a very important product for everybody. We use it for multiple hours every single day. It's like one of our most intimate devices. As we were trying to make our phone, we got rejected by everybody. So all the factories and all the suppliers said, "Hey, we've heard the story before. There's been founders who've raised more money than you, are more famous than you, more capable than you. They tried to do this and they all failed. So we're not going to work with startups anymore." So when we started, there had been multiple failures of startup companies who tried to make smartphones. So when it was our turn, nobody wanted to take a chance on us. So we took a step back and said, "Okay. No worries. Let's figure out how we fix this." And we said, "Okay, let's pick another category, wireless earbuds." And it's also a big category because back in 2021, I think there were 300 million of those sold around the world. For smartphones, it's about a billion. So 300 million is still a lot. So we said, "Hey, let's pick another big category and let's prove ourselves. Let's prove to the world that we can design something iconic and also sell a lot of those and then we will get the trust or earn the trust to take the next step." So that's why we did audio. Luckily, we sold quite a lot. We sold like 600,000 units. And that enabled us to raise the capital but also gain the trust from the supply chain to make our first smartphone.

你现在融资时的说辞和面向客户的说辞是什么？

What is your pitch now when you're trying to fundraise and your pitch to customers?

我是说，我觉得融资和客户是两回事，因为客户，我们是消费类业务。所以人们实际上是，他们拿薪水、交税，然后必须买我们的产品。所以我们需要交付真正当下就能用的东西，真正高质量。所以如果你看我们的用户，他们买我们产品的主要原因是我们的设计和软件。这就是我们今天在这里推销的东西。当我们向投资者推销时，我们必须告诉他们我们未来想做什么。所以我们从音频开始，进入智能手机，然后我们会描绘我们对这个行业未来的愿景，以及我们会扮演什么角色。

I mean, I think these are different things, fundraising and customers, because customers like we're in a consumer business. So people are actually, I mean they make a salary and they pay tax and they have to buy our product. So we need to deliver something that really works here and now, like really high quality. So if you look at our users, the main reason why they buy our products is because of our design and our software. And that's, you know, that's what we're pitching today here and now. When we're pitching to investors, we got to tell them what we want to do in the future. So we start off with audio, went to smartphones and we will then paint a vision of how we see this industry in the future and, you know, what role we would play in it.

好。让我们稍微回到 Nothing 背后的核心理念，科技行业，尤其是智能手机行业，已经变得无聊了，对吧？但我们说的是一个超过 5000 亿美元的行业。对你来说，到底什么无聊？

Okay. And let's back up a little to the core idea behind Nothing that the tech industry, especially the smartphone industry, has become boring, right? But we're talking about a over $500 industry. What exactly is boring to you?

所有产品看起来都一样，对吧？每一代新产品，变化都很小。也许 5 年才变一点。而且超级可预测。每年电池好一点，相机好一点，屏幕亮一点。没有这个行业初期那种激情，那时你会期待下一个产品，熬夜看公司发布产品的主题演讲。但我认为这是自然的，对吧？因为过去，是较小的创意公司挑战现状，做出这些产品。随着时间推移，这些公司变得非常大。当它们变大时，它们的战略必须变得更防御性。所以创新少了，更多是防守。这只是常规。每个行业都这样。我们行业唯一不同的是没有小公司。只有少数巨头，因为进入门槛太高了。

All the products look the same, right? Every new generation, the changes are minimal. Maybe in 5 years, it changes a little bit. And it's super predictable. Every year, the battery gets a little bit better and the camera gets a little bit better and the screen gets a little bit brighter. There's not that same passion as in the start of this industry where you were looking forward to the next product. You were staying up late to watch the keynotes where the companies launched the products. But I think it's natural, right? Because back in the day, it used to be smaller creative companies who challenged the status quo and made all these products. And over time, these companies got really big. And when they got big, their strategy has to change to be more of a defensive strategy. So less innovation, more kind of playing defense. And this is just par for course. It's normal in every industry. The only difference with our industry is that there are no small companies. There's only a handful of giants because the entry barrier of coming in is just too high.

所以这更多是创意问题，而不是真正的技术问题。

So it's more of a creativity problem than really a technology problem.

我觉得是这样。我认为永远是用户体验第一，技术服务于用户体验。

I think so. I think it's always about the user experience first and technology serves the user experience.

你推出 Nothing 时，想挑战的第一个关于科技的假设是什么？是回到那个无聊的问题吗？

What was the first assumption about tech that you wanted to challenge when you were launching Nothing? Does it go back to that boring thing?

是的，我们从设计开始，因为，你知道，我们一开始很惨，巨大的行业，小团队，没有资源，没有钱，没有供应链。我们说：“好吧，我们的策略是选择大的现有行业。耳机每年 3 亿副。智能手机每年 10 亿部。所以我们的挑战不是发明新的技术使用方式。我们进入的是别人已经创造的品类。那我们怎么最快地差异化？对我们来说，答案是设计。”所以我们一开始真的专注于和世界上一些最好的设计师合作，创造产品设计，创造品牌宇宙设计。现在 5 年后，当你做调查，问我们的用户为什么选择 Nothing，设计总是第一原因。

Yeah, we started with design because, you know, we were pretty cooked in the beginning, like huge industry, small team, no resource, no money, no supply chain. And we said, "Okay. Well, our strategy is to pick big pre-existing industries. 300 million units every year for earbuds. A billion every year for smartphones. So our challenge is not to invent a new way of using technology. We're entering a category that somebody else has already created. So how do we differentiate ourselves the fastest? And for us, the answer was design." So we really focused on working with some of the best designers in the world in the beginning to create the product design, to create the kind of brand universe design. And, you know, now 5 years later when you do surveys and ask our users why did you pick Nothing, design is always the number one reason.

是的，你一开始决定的一个很大部分，我们稍微谈过，是决定创建一个硬件公司，而不是软件公司。

Yeah, and a big part of your decision at the beginning, we've talked about this a little, was deciding to create a hardware company compared to software.

你能谈谈这个吗？

Can you talk about that?

我在软件方面没有任何经验，我觉得软件很难获得用户，也许是因为我缺乏经验。但你知道，我最初以为 App Store 刚推出时，有一些很蠢的应用却有很多用户，比如喝酒应用或迷宫应用。但随着时间的推移，因为应用不多而 iPhone 用户很多，所以每个人都在 App Store 下载所有东西并试用。但后来，制作应用的竞争变得非常激烈。从应用在 App Store 上自然获得用户，到现在人们必须花很多钱在 App Store 上投放广告才能获得用户。所以我觉得如果我们做软件公司，分发会非常困难。起步容易，但竞争要高得多。对于我们的业务类型，起步非常非常难，但没有竞争对手。就像世界上没有其他初创公司在做我们想做的事情。

I just don't have any experience in software, and I felt like it's really hard to get users for software, maybe because of my inexperience. But you know, I thought in the beginning when the App Store just came out, there were kind of dumb apps that had a lot of users, like beer drinking apps or labyrinth app. But over time, because there weren't a lot of apps but there were a lot of iPhone users back in the days, everybody was in the App Store downloading everything and trying it. But over time, the competition just got so high making apps. It went from apps just finding users organically on the App Store to now people have to pay a lot of money to put their advertising on the App Stores in order to get the users. So I just felt like distribution would be really really hard if we were a software company. It's easier to start, but the competition is way higher. For our type of business, it's very very hard to start, but there are no competitors. Like there's no other startup in the world doing what we're trying to do.

是的，我稍后还想多谈谈你对 Nothing 手机上应用的愿景。但回到为你的硬件创造设计，从一开始带我了解一下你的设计决策，因为这显然是你销售这些产品的一个非常重要的部分。

Yeah, I want to talk more about your vision for apps on Nothing phones later, too. But going back to creating the design for your hardware, how like walk me through your design decisions from the start, cuz that's obviously a really important piece of how you sell these products.

是的，我们非常幸运，因为有人把我介绍给了瑞典斯德哥尔摩的一个叫 Jesper 的人。那是我长大的地方，但他有一家公司叫 Teenage Engineering。我以前从未听说过那家公司。所以当一个朋友说“嘿，我想把你介绍给这家公司”时，我的第一反应是“不，为什么？”因为我们是一家全新的公司，没人知道我们的品牌。我们需要和像 Gucci 或 Dior 这样的知名品牌合作。我就是这么告诉朋友的，为什么不把我们介绍给 Dior？但他说服我去见 Teenage Engineering，他们太有创意了。结果发现，瑞典的很多广告，比如我小时候在瑞典看到的电视广告，实际上都是 Jesper 执导的。他是这些广告背后的制片人和导演。所以他在我的生活中已经存在了很久，尽管我当时并不知道。我们见面后谈了 45 分钟，握了手。他们的公司 Teenage Engineering 成了我们的联合创始人。这有点不寻常，因为通常你有人类联合创始人。我们让一家公司成为联合创始人，因为他已经有了自己的公司，不能就这么告别。但我们真的很想和他合作，让他的创意头脑也做出贡献。而且因为我们有这个团队和我们合作，这个团队在工业设计界有很高的信誉。所以正是通过这种合作，我们才得以建立一支非常强大的内部设计团队。比如我们内部雇的第一个人是 Dyson 的前设计主管，那是一家英国电子公司。然后我们建立了一支非常强大的团队。最近我们招募了 Apple 的人，或者是在美国待过一段时间想搬回英国的英国 Apple 设计师。所以我们就这样建立了一支非常强大的设计团队。

Yeah, we were really lucky because I was introduced to somebody called Jesper in Stockholm, Sweden. It's where I grew up, but he has a company called Teenage Engineering. I had never heard about that company before. So when a friend said, 'Hey, I want to introduce you to this company.' My first reaction was like, 'No, why?' Because we're a brand new company. Nobody knows our brand. We need to be working with like well-known brands like Gucci or Dior. That's what I told my friend, like why don't you introduce us to Dior? But then he convinced me to meet with Teenage Engineering, and they were just so creative. And it turns out that a lot of the advertising in Sweden, like the TV advertising in Sweden that I saw when I was a kid, was actually directed by Jesper. He was like the producer and director behind those. So he's been a part of my life, even though I didn't know it at the time, for a very long time. We just met up and had like a 45-minute conversation and shook hands. And their company Teenage Engineering became our co-founder. It's kind of not normal because usually you have human co-founders. We had a company be a co-founder because he already had a company. He couldn't just say goodbye to his company. But we really wanted to work with him and have his creative mind also contribute. And because we had this team working with us, this team had a lot of credibility within the industrial design community. So it was really through this partnership that we were able to build a very strong internal design team as well. Like the first person we hired internally was the former head of design at Dyson, for instance. It's a British electronics company. And then we built a really strong team. Recently we've been able to recruit Apple people, or British Apple designers who spent some time in the US and want to move back. So we built a really strong design team like that.

但你曾谈到想要创造一系列即使没有标志也能识别出你品牌的产品。我认为 Apple 的产品也是如此。我想你过去曾以索尼为例，但当你推出新设计时，这仍然是你的使命吗？

But you've talked about wanting to create this suite of products that are identifiable to your brand even without a logo. And I think that's also the case with like Apple products. I think you've talked about Sony as an example in the past, but is that still your mission when you're coming out with new designs?

是的，过去我们在其他公司做产品时，我们的设计方式是让设计师竞争。我们有这个新产品要造，你知道，分成不同团队，几周后重新集合，把所有设计摆在桌上，然后我们挑一个喜欢的。但虽然每个产品单独看都很漂亮，却没有一条一致的线索。所有产品之间没有一致的线索。然后当我们回顾过去尊敬的公司，比如索尼或 Apple，他们有更一致的设计语言。就像你不需要看到标志就知道是哪家公司做的。所以这是我们最初的目标之一。所以在真正设计产品之前，我们做了一本设计书，我们从电影、家具设计、建筑、电子产品中收集灵感。它更像是一个情绪板，表达我们希望品牌和产品给人的感觉。这大概是书的前半部分，后半部分是我们开始尝试设计一些自己的产品，比如做模型。它会是什么样子？所以我认为这就是我们建立这种一致语言的方式。我们不让设计师竞争。我们确保拥有世界上一些最好的设计师，每个人都在不同的项目上工作。通过创造这种设计文化，我们能够吸引那些否则不想加入一个必须互相竞争的文化的设计师。

Yeah, in the past when we made products at other companies, the way we designed it was that we had the designers compete. We have this new product we want to build, you know, split up into different teams and then regroup in a couple of weeks and put all the designs on the table and we just kind of pick the one we like. But while every product looked beautiful individually, it was not like a consistent thread. There wasn't a consistent thread across all the products. And then when we looked at companies from the past that we respected, like Sony or Apple, they had a way more consistent design language. Like you didn't need to see the logo to know which company made it. So that was one of our goals in the beginning. So before actually designing the products, we made a design book where we collected inspiration from movies, from furniture design, architecture, electronics. It was more like a mood board of how we wanted the brand and the products to feel. That was kind of like the first half of the book, and the second half of the book was us starting to try and design some of our own products, like mocking it up. How would it look like? So I think that's the way we built this consistent language. We don't have our designers compete. We make sure we have some of the best designers in the world, and everybody is working on different projects. And through creating this kind of a design culture, we're able to attract designers that otherwise wouldn't have wanted to join a culture where they have to kind of compete with each other.

是的。那么，当你谈到让科技再次变得有趣时，设计方面对你来说最重要吗？是手机内部的东西、你在手机上看到的东西、软件、操作系统吗？

Yeah. Well, when you're talking about making tech fun again, is it the design aspect that's most important to you? Is it the what's inside the phone, what you're seeing on your phone, the software, the operating system?

是的，设计是一个好的起点，因为它快。但你不能止步于此，因为消费者的品味会变。比如他们今天可能喜欢我们，明天可能有不同的偏好。但这也还不够。比如我研究过很多 Apple。我年轻时是 Apple 的超级粉丝。你知道，他们真正瞄准的是创意人士。不仅仅是通过设计。他们有漂亮的设计，但在 90 年代，他们还收购了几家小软件公司，把它们变成了创意工具。比如 iMovie、GarageBand 等。所以普通人也可以用 Apple 电脑来展现他们的创造力。所以我认为硬件和软件必须携手并进，最终必须赋予人们创造力。我认为我们的机会是，Apple 在变得如此庞大后，有点抛弃了创意社区。他们必须为所有人提供一切。而创意人士不再有一个首选品牌，这正是行业中的空白，我们可以朝着这个方向努力。

Yeah, design is a good place to start because it's fast. But you can't stop there because consumer taste changes. Like they might like us today and tomorrow they might have a different preference. But also it's not enough. Like I've studied Apple a lot. I was a big Apple fan when I was younger. And you know, they really targeted the creatives. Not just through design. They had beautiful designs, but in the '90s they also acquired a couple of small software companies and made them into creative tools. Like iMovie, GarageBand, etc. So the common person could also use Apple computers to manifest their creativity. So I think it always has to be hardware and software hand in hand and ultimately has to empower people creatively. I think the opportunity we have is that Apple has kind of abandoned the creative community now that they've gotten so big. They have to be everything for everyone. And the creatives no longer have a go-to brand, and that's like a white space in the industry that we can build towards.

是的。是的，你曾谈到 Apple 的每次更新感觉都和上一次类似。当你发布新的 Nothing 手机时，你的目标是什么？你是想每次迭代都推出完全不同的东西，还是……

Yeah. Yeah, you've talked about with Apple it feeling like every update is just similar to the last. What do you aim to do when you release a new Nothing phone? Are you trying to come out with something completely different every iteration or...

我们在努力找到平衡。

We're trying to find our balance.

有时候我们从一代产品到另一代产品变化太少，有时候又变化太多。我们正在寻找自己的节奏。如果变化太快，消费者有时会感到困惑。举个例子，我们的第一款手机背面有这些灯带，覆盖了手机大部分区域，用来通知你重要的事情。然后去年我们改成了手机背面的这块屏幕。很多用户说：“嘿，我想要灯带。你们为什么改了？”所以我们还在摸索平衡。

Sometimes we change too little from one generation to the other. Sometimes we change too much. We're trying to find our pace. If you change too quickly, sometimes the consumer gets a bit confused. One example is we started off with our first phone having these light strips on the back covering most of the phone to notify you what's important. Then recently last year we changed it to this screen on the back of the phone. A lot of our users were like, 'Hey, I wanted the lights. Why did you change it?' So we're still figuring out the balance.

是的，我们也来谈谈灯带这部分。我知道你在通知方面想了很多。我觉得这正好引出了我想问的问题，那就是我们一直在报道的一个趋势：人们想要找到摆脱手机的方法，他们喜欢模拟爱好，比如把手机“砖化”，使用屏幕时间应用之类的。你在打造智能手机公司时，对这类趋势考虑了多少？

Yeah, let's talk about the light part of this too. I know you've thought a lot about that when it comes to notifications. And I think that ties into what I'm trying to ask you here, which is that there's this growing trend that we've been writing about about analog hobbies that people are wanting to find ways to get off their phones. They're bricking their phones, using screen time apps and things like that. How much are you thinking about that kind of trend when you're building a smartphone company?

考虑了很多，因为这款产品叫智能手机，但它并没有真正让我们变得更聪明。也许在智能手机早期是这样，但现在大多数人只是在无意识地刷屏。最近有一项研究将无意识刷屏与变笨联系起来，比如智商下降。所以我们想帮助人们更有意识地使用智能手机。这就是为什么我们之前有背面的灯带。你可以自定义它，为特定的应用或联系人显示特定的图案。现在我们换成了小屏幕。比如，当我未婚妻联系我时，她有自己独特的图标，比如一个眨眼笑脸。其他人都是空白的。所以我知道什么时候需要拿起手机，什么时候不需要。我不必总是焦虑地看是否错过了消息。当你解锁手机时，我们的用户界面默认是单色的，黑白的，看起来不那么有趣。我们还增加了隐藏应用标签的选项。我们做单色的原因是，在品牌方面，颜色是品牌最强大的信号之一。通过剥夺应用拥有颜色的权力，你真的需要有意识地寻找你想用的应用，避免自然意外点击社交媒体应用，然后再次开始无意识刷屏的循环。

Quite a lot, because this product is called smartphone. But it's not really making us smart. Maybe in the early days of the smartphone it was, but these days most people are just spending time doom scrolling. There was a study recently that linked doom scrolling to being more stupid. Like your IQ would drop. So we wanted to help people be more intentional about their smartphone usage. That's why we had these light strips on the back. You could customize it to show certain patterns for certain apps or contacts. Now we switched to a small screen. For instance, when my fiancée is trying to contact me, she has her own icon like a smiley wink face. Everybody else is just blank. So I know when I need to pick up my phone and when I don't need to. I don't have to always anxiously see whether I missed a message. And when you unlock the phone, our user interface by default is monochrome. It's black and white. It's not that fun to look at. We've also added the option to hide the label under the apps. The reason we did the monochrome is because in terms of branding, color is one of the most powerful signals of a brand. By stripping away the power from the apps of having colors, you really have to be intentional about looking for the apps you want to use, to avoid just naturally by accident clicking your social media app and then starting that doom scroll cycle again.

是的，这似乎存在一种张力：你希望客户使用手机，但又不希望他们无意识刷屏。你不想让他们点击……

Yeah, it seems like a tension between wanting your customers to be using their phone, but also you don't want them to doom scroll. You don't want them to click on the...

我们想要……我们的使命宣言是让科技变得有趣，激发人类创造力。我认为无意识刷屏不会帮助人们变得更有创造力。

We want to... Our mission statement is make tech fun to inspire human creativity. I don't think doom scrolling will help people be more creative.

是的。好吧，我们来谈谈你的营销策略。你显然没有足够的资金在营销上与苹果或三星竞争。我看到你转向了 YouTube 和更多短视频。在营销和广告方面，你在哪里取得了最大的成功？

Yeah. Well, let's talk about your marketing strategy a little bit. You obviously don't have the dollars to compete with Apple or Samsung on marketing. I've seen that you've turned to YouTube and more short-form videos. Where have you found the most success when it comes to marketing and advertising?

我认为营销本质上就是套利。它关乎发现比竞争对手更高效地触达人们的新方法。因为如果你不这样做，你最终会支付与竞争对手相同的成本来触达一个人。像我们这样的挑战者品牌，预算与苹果和三星相比微不足道。如果我们只是复制他们的策略，我们不会取得任何进展。很多人喜欢苹果 1984 年的超级碗广告。那在当时是一个非常酷的广告。那时超级碗还没有成为展示广告的场所。但他们率先这样做，并且广告如此颠覆，给他们带来了巨大的额外价值。如果今天你做同样的事情，它不会带来同样多的有机价值。所以我们一直在寻找新的策略。我们不断实验和测试。

I think for me marketing is at its essence about arbitrage. It's about discovering new ways of reaching people in a more efficient manner than your competitors. Because if you don't do this, you end up paying the same amount to reach a person as your competitors. When you're a challenger brand like us, our budgets are tiny compared to Apple and Samsung. If we just copy their tactics, we wouldn't have gotten anywhere. A lot of people like Apple's 1984 Super Bowl ad. That was a super cool ad during that time. Back then Super Bowl hadn't become this place where you showcase your ad. But them doing it first and having such a disruptive ad, it just got them so much peripheral value. If you do the same thing today, it's not going to drive the same amount of organic value on top of it. So we're trying to find new tactics all the time. We experiment and we test.

我们一开始非常擅长与科技评测者合作。简单来说，当我们有新产品时，我们会确保不同国家的关键评测者都有我们的产品。我们会提前给他们简报。我们会在评测发布前安排电话会议，讨论产品并回答他们可能有的任何问题。然而，我们看到随着时间的推移，科技媒体的流量下降了。每年流量越来越低，因为人们的时间转移到了社交媒体和视频，尤其是短视频。所以在过去几年里，我们制作了更多短视频，并试图学习这种策略。我认为去年我们在内容上获得了大约 8 亿次有机观看。我们仍在学习。但现在我已经退出了营销，因为我们成功聘请了一位名叫查理·史密斯的家伙。他曾负责罗意威的营销。现在他是我们的首席品牌官，我可以专注于其他事情。他做得非常出色。

What we were really good at doing in the beginning was working with the tech reviewers. Simply when we had a new product, we would make sure that the key reviewers in all of the different countries had our product. We would pre-brief them. We would schedule a call before the review came out to talk through the product and answer any questions they might have. However, we saw that over time the tech media lost traffic. Every year the traffic became lower and lower because people's time was being shifted to social media and video, especially short form. So the last couple of years we've been making a lot more short form video and trying to learn about that tactic. I think last year we did probably around 800 million organic views on the content. We're still learning. But now I've stepped away from marketing because we were able to hire a guy called Charlie Smith. He used to run marketing at Loewe. Now he's our chief brand officer and I can focus on other things. He's done a great job.

所以对于那些不知道的人来说，罗意威是一个有点沉寂的西班牙奢侈时尚品牌。LVMH 收购了它，然后复兴了它。我认为在 6 年内，它的收入从 4 亿欧元增长到 18 亿欧元。今天，它就像是 Z 世代有足够钱时会买的第一个奢侈包。所以对我们来说，这感觉非常合适，因为我们瞄准的是下一代消费者。我们想通过设计和创意来差异化。而且我们热爱社交媒体。罗意威在 TikTok 上也做得很好。所以感觉完美契合。我终于可以退出营销事务了。

So for those who don't know, Loewe is this kind of sleepy Spanish luxury fashion brand. LVMH bought it and then revived it. I think in 6 years it went from 400 million euros in revenue to 1.8 billion. Today it's like the first luxury bag that Gen Z's would buy when they have enough money. So it felt like a super good fit for us because we're targeting the next generation consumers. We want to differentiate through design and creativity. And we love social media. Loewe did a great job on TikTok as well. So it just felt like the perfect fit. So I can finally step away from the marketing stuff.

所以你发现你的受众真的很像 Z 世代？

So you're finding that your audience is really like Gen Z?

是的，我们用户的平均年龄是 26 岁。这是整个行业中最年轻的。

Yeah, the average age for our users is 26. It's the youngest in the entire industry.

你在广告等方面对这个受众有什么了解？你需要在他们屏幕所在的地方找到他们，对吧？

What are you learning about that audience as you advertise and stuff that you need to find them where they're at on their screens, right?

是的，我觉得我们非常诚实，他们喜欢这样。我在 YouTube 上最受欢迎的视频是我评测 iPhone。但同时也批评我们自己的产品。我实际上说过 iPhone 在很多方面更好。所以我认为没有必要……是的，我们应该假设每个人都是聪明的。没有必要使用企业用语或拐弯抹角。只要对人诚实。我认为 Z 世代非常看重真实性。

Yeah, I think we're super honest and they like it. My most popular video on YouTube is me reviewing the iPhone. But also criticizing our own product. I actually said iPhone is better in a lot of aspects. So I think there's no need to... Yeah, we should assume that everybody is intelligent. No need to use corporate speak or beat around the bush. Just be honest with people. I think Gen Z really value authenticity.

好，我们稍微聊聊苹果。我的意思是，苹果的主导地位其实不只是硬件，还有它的操作系统。你知道，很多人，我的朋友们总是担心我们的群聊变绿，对吧？这在美国可是个巨大的竞争点。你对 Nothing 的软件及其功能有什么愿景？

Yeah, let's turn to Apple a little bit. I mean, Apple's dominance is really not just hardware, it's also its operating system. And you know, a lot of people, my friends all the time, are worried about our group chats turning green, right? That's like a huge thing to compete with, especially in the US. What is your vision for software at Nothing and its capabilities?

是的，首先我觉得苹果现在非常庞大，在某些方面拥有垄断地位，却不对互操作性开放，这感觉不再正确了。我理解如果你是一家创新的小公司，或者你开发了这些专有技术来帮助你在市场竞争，那完全公平。但现在当你在 18 岁以下人群中有 90% 的市场份额，却锁定你的生态系统，让设备之间无法互操作，消息无法互通，像 AirDrop 这样的文件传输也无法互操作，这开始扼杀竞争。我住在欧洲，所以我想欧洲人更关心这些事情。我可能会在欧洲写一些评论文章。但对我们来说，我认为我们最大的机会是 AI。对吧？关于 AI 有很多炒作。但我觉得这是一个实验的好时机。每个人都在试图弄清楚 AI 会带来什么。我们目前推出的最令人兴奋的东西是我们称之为“Essential Apps”的功能。你可以登录一个网络平台，描述你想要的应用程序，它就会通过 AI 生成。如果你不喜欢，你可以继续提示并修改它。如果你是工程师，你也可以进入代码直接修改。完成后，你点击部署，它就会立即出现在你的手机上。所以基本上我们是在让应用创建民主化。是的，我觉得这真的很令人兴奋。目前它还在测试阶段，所以功能不是特别强大，但想象一下未来的世界，智能手机体验对每个人来说都是个性化的。你拥有你或你朋友制作的应用程序。它们可能对每个人来说都不是完美的，但对你来说是完美的。我认为这将是一种思维模式的转变，因为今天如果你制作一个应用，没有人下载，你只有一个用户，你会感到难过。但未来，因为创建软件如此容易，即使你只有一个真正喜欢这个产品的用户，它也是一个完全可行的产品。所以这将是一种思维模式的转变。

Yeah, I think first of all, Apple is very big now and having a monopoly on some of these things and not opening it up for interoperability doesn't feel like the right thing to do anymore. Like, I understand if you're an innovating small company or you develop these proprietary technologies that help you compete in the market, that's super fair. But now when you have 90% market share in 18 and below and you lock your ecosystem down so that devices still don't interoperate, messaging doesn't interoperate, file transfers like AirDrop doesn't interoperate, it's beginning to stifle competition. I live in Europe, so I guess Europeans care more about these things. I might write some opinion pieces in Europe. But for us, I think the big opportunity we have is AI. Right? There's so much buzz about AI. But it's a great time to experiment. Everybody's trying to figure out what AI is going to bring. The most exciting thing that we've launched so far is something we call Essential Apps. So you can log into a web platform and just describe the app you want to see and it generates it through AI. And if you don't like it, you can keep prompting it and changing it. And if you're an engineer, you can also go into the code and just change the code. And once you're done, you click deploy and it shows up on your phone instantly. So basically we're democratizing app creation. Yeah, I think that's really exciting. Right now it's in beta, so the capabilities are not super high, but imagine a world in the future where the smartphone experience is personal to everybody. You have the apps that you made or your friends made. They might not be perfect for everybody, but it's perfect for you. And I think it's going to be a mindset shift because today if you make an app and nobody downloads it, you have one user, you feel sad. But in the future, because it's so easy to create software, even if you only have one user that really loves the product, it's a perfectly fine product. So there's going to be a mindset shift.

所以你希望每个人都能做到，你知道，获得一个应用的门槛要非常低。我的意思是，在应用商店里，不管是什么。

So you want it to be possible for everyone, you know, the bar to be very low to be able to get an app. I mean, in the app store, whatever it is.

是的，我们现在有自己的版本了。但我不期望每个人都去做。我期望，你知道，10% 的人会去做，90% 的人只是浏览和消费别人制作的东西。我们还在构建一个混音功能。所以如果你制作了某种我有点喜欢但不完美的东西，我会直接拿你的作品进行混音，让它完美适合我。

Yeah, we have our own version of that now. But I don't expect everybody to do it. I expect, you know, 10% of the people to do it and 90% of the people to just browse and consume what other people have made. We're also building a remix function. So if you made something that I kind of like, but it's not perfect for me, I'll just take your work and remix it to fit me perfectly.

你还谈到了一个没有应用的世界？

And you've also talked about a world in which there are no apps?

是的，我认为那将是接下来会发生的事情。

Yeah, I think that's going to be the next thing that happens.

再解释一下。我很难想象。

Explain that more. It's hard for me to imagine.

嗯，我们目前使用手机的方式非常老派。这是 iPhone 之前的模式。就像过去有 PalmPilots 和 PDA。如果你想想用户体验，它仍然非常相似。你有锁屏、主屏幕、应用。你浏览不同的应用。每个应用都是全屏的东西。有某种应用商店允许你下载更多应用。所以这种交互模式大约 20 年没有真正改变了。我认为这也是这个行业无聊的事情之一。比如，嘿，技术真的进化了。为什么我们还在用同样的方式使用产品？如果你分析我们花在手机上的时间，很多时间都花在做管理类的事情上。在手机上很难完成事情。假设我们想喝杯咖啡。那是一个意图，但为了执行那个意图，我们必须经历很多不同的步骤和很多不同的应用。和别人喝咖啡可能需要四个应用。一个消息应用，某种地图，某个 Uber，可能还有日历。我认为智能手机或操作系统的未来应该就是：我非常了解你，如果我知道你的意图，我就直接为你做。而不是手动经历所有应用。所以你的智能手机将能够预订你的座位，带你去那里，和你的朋友设置日历邀请。

Well, the current way we use phones is very old school. It's pre-iPhone. It's like there used to be PalmPilots and PDAs back in the day. And if you think about the user experience, it's still very similar. You have lock screens, home screens, apps. You browse different apps. Each app is like a full-screen thing. There's some kind of app store that allows you to download more apps. So it hasn't really changed for like 20 years, this interaction model. I think that's also one of the boring things about this industry. Like, hey, the technology has really evolved. Why are we using the products in the same way? And if you analyze the time we spend on our phones, a lot of it is spent doing like admin things. It's very hard to get things done on a phone. Let's say we want to grab coffee. That's like an intention, but to execute that intention, we have to go through so many different steps and so many different apps. It's probably like four apps to grab coffee with somebody. It's a messaging app, some kind of maps, some Uber, calendar probably. I think the future of smartphones or operating systems should just be: I know you very well, and if I know your intention, I just do it for you. Instead of having to go through all the apps manually. So your smartphone would be able to book your reservation, get you there, set the calendar invite with your friend.

是的，应该通过 AI 实现。

Yeah, it should through AI.

我认为第一步，一些公司现在正在测试的，是它可以接受命令并执行命令。所以可能是航班或酒店。而且总是航班和酒店。就像所有的演示都是航班和酒店。我觉得这也超级无聊。我认为下一步是它更长期地了解你的意图。例如，我想变得更健康。我想减肥。这不是一个任务就能完成的，而是需要稳步进展才能达到。而且它，你知道，会随着时间的推移推动你达到目标。我认为当它开始为你提供建议时会变得更强大。对吧？你不必手动想出一个主意。嘿，我想做这个，或者我有这个意图。但当系统如此了解我们时，它会提出我们甚至不知道自己想要的东西。所以我不知道你们是否感觉到了，但有时当我使用我的 AI，比如 ChatGPT 或 Gemini，因为它开启了记忆功能，它开始将过去几个月前和我聊过的事情联系起来。那些我甚至都不再记得的事情。所以我认为随着时间的推移，系统会比我们更了解我们自己，并且能够真正提出很好的建议。

I think the first step, which some companies are testing right now, is that it can take a command and execute that command. So it could be flights or hotels. And it's always flights and hotels. It's like all the demos are flights and hotels. I think that's also super boring. I think the next step is it knows your intentions more long-term. For instance, I want to become healthier. I want to lose weight. It's something that you cannot accomplish with one task, but it's like steady progress to reach. And it's, you know, over time nudges you to get there. And I think it gets even more powerful when it starts surfacing suggestions for you. Right? You don't have to manually come up with an idea. Hey, I want to do this or I have this intention. But when the system knows us so well, it will come up with things that we didn't even know we wanted. So I don't know if you guys have felt it, but sometimes when I use my AI like ChatGPT or Gemini, because it has memory turned on, it's starting to make connections with things I chatted about with it in the past, like months ago. Things that I don't even have in my memory anymore. So I think over time the systems will know us better than we know ourselves and be able to really create great suggestions.

好吧，有点吓人。到那时候我会给你打电话的。

Okay, kind of scary. And I'll be calling you when that happens.

告诉我，比如，今年 AI 在西南偏南大会上无处不在。我在这里的每一次谈话都是关于它的。你认为大多数公司，尤其是硬件公司，现在在 AI 方面做错了什么？是不是他们都在做类似你所说的那些显而易见的相同事情？

Tell me, like, AI has been all over South by this year. It's like every conversation I've had here. And what do you think that most companies, and particularly hardware companies, are getting wrong about AI right now? Is it that they're all doing kind of the same obvious stuff like you're talking about?

我认为我们必须回归用户体验。比如，我们如何创造比人们过去使用的更好的产品或更好的用户体验？仅仅说嘿，这是一个 AI 功能，那是不够的。我喜欢把它看作一种成分。就像如果你做一部手机，相机是一种成分，显示屏是一种成分。你不会到处说，“嘿，这款手机有显示屏。”对吧？就像说手机有 AI 就像说它有显示屏一样。

I think we got to fall back to the user experience. Like, how are we creating a better product or a better user experience versus what people used to use? Just saying that hey, this is an AI feature, that doesn't cut it. I like to think of it as just an ingredient. Like if you make a phone, camera's an ingredient, a display is an ingredient. You don't go around saying, "Hey, this phone has a display." Right? It's like saying the phone has AI is like saying it has a display.

你实际上在用 AI 做什么？用它创造了什么有价值的东西？

What are you actually doing with it? What's something valuable you're creating with it?

Essential Apps 就是我们做的一个例子。我们还在手机上增加了一个侧键，叫 Essential Key。现在，每当你有灵感闪现，不管是在刷 Instagram、Pinterest、浏览网页，还是单纯想对着手机说个想法，只要按下那个键，它就会保存到你的空间里。AI 会帮你整理空间，可以建立待办清单，可以把相似的东西归类分组，还能同步你的 Google 日历。我们觉得这个功能比盲目宣称“支持 AI”有用得多。

So the essential apps example was one example of what we're doing. We also added a side key on our phones. We call it the essential key. So now, whenever you have a moment of inspiration, whether you're on Instagram or Pinterest or in your web browser or you just have an idea you wanted to speak into the phone, just press that button and it saves it into your space. And AI organizes your space for you. It can set up to-do lists. It can set up categories or clusters of things that are similar. It can sync with your Google Calendar. This is a feature that we feel is more useful than just blindly saying it's AI-enabled.

是的，我觉得你说得对，很多公司添加这些 AI 功能是因为他们觉得不得不这么做。对于那些正在构建、使用 AI 的公司和创始人，你有什么建议，能让他们不盲目追逐炒作周期，而是真正为了创造而创造？

Yeah, I think you're right that a lot of companies are adding these AI features because they feel like they have to. Do you have any advice for companies, founders, building, using AI without building it towards that hype cycle, just creating it because?

是的，我觉得就是要搞清楚你的目标用户是谁。你的客户是谁？我认为选择客户是双向的，对吧？你选择你想要的客户，你为他们提供价值，他们也会选择你。所以这是双向的。然后在 AI 与软件方面，我认为人们应该明白，应用将会消失。所以如果你是创始人、创业者，而你的应用是核心价值所在，那它就会被颠覆，不管你愿不愿意。如果你有非常强大的品牌和非常强大的分发渠道，你可以稍微推迟这个进程。但除此之外，我建议每个人都换个思路。比如，如果未来是智能体为你做事，而你有应用，为什么不开放 API 或 MCP，让智能体可以无摩擦地使用它？我看到在智能手机上，有些公司试图模仿人类的操作方式。比如让 AI 智能体像人一样点击 Uber，在键盘上输入你要去的地址。那不是未来。未来不是智能体使用人类界面。你需要为智能体创建一个界面。我认为那才是更面向未来的做法。

Yeah, I think it would be to just understand who you're targeting. Like who is your customer? And I think selecting a customer is a two-way thing, right? You pick what customers you want. You deliver value to them and they also select you. So it's a two-way street. Then in terms of AI in software, I think people should understand that apps are going to disappear. So if you're a founder, startup, and your app is where the core value lies, that will be disrupted, whether you like it or not. If you have a very strong brand and very strong distribution, you could delay it by a little bit. But otherwise, I would advise everybody to think differently. For instance, if the future is going to be agents doing things for you, and if you have an app, why not open up the API or the MCP so that agents can use it frictionlessly. I've seen on the smartphones that some companies are trying to mimic the human touch on smartphones. So you have an AI agent that's trying to click like Uber and enter the address on the keyboard you're going to go to. That's not the future. The future is not the agent using a human interface. You need to create an interface for the agent to use. I think that's the more future-proof way of doing it.

好的。再问一个关于 AI 的问题。听起来你在公司内部当然大量使用 AI。谈谈你在创意过程中如何使用它，因为我知道那是 Nothing 的重要组成部分。你和很多创意人员合作，他们在工作中使用 AI 吗？

Okay. One more question about AI. It sounds like you're using it a lot within the company, of course. Talk a little bit about how you use that in the creative process, because I know that's an important part of Nothing. And you work with a lot of creatives. Are they using AI in that work?

我觉得对我们来说，因为去年 12 月模型进步很大，我们团队去年还很怀疑，但今年大家都接受了。我们想从软件团队开始，因为我觉得那里能获得最大的杠杆效应。所以我现在成了 Claude Code 的重度用户。我大学时上过 Java 课，但那已经很多很多年了，我都没碰过编程。所以我现在能在 20 分钟内做出很酷的东西。我觉得一方面这对团队很有激励作用，但另一方面也有点吓人，因为我能做到，而他们可能要用一年才能做出其中一个功能。所以作为一个概念验证，我做了个演示：如果你有两部手机，你把手悬停在一部手机上，如果那部手机上打开着一张照片，你直接抓取那张照片，然后把手移到另一部手机上，把照片放下来，作为一种文件传输方式。这看起来像科幻片，但我只用了大概 2 个小时就现场写出来了。如果我能做到，那团队也应该能做到，所以现在我们就是在激励团队加快速度。而且组织也需要大变革，对吧？因为想想这些角色，以前有产品经理、设计师和工程师。但今天，你不再需要这些了。一个人就能做出整个东西。所以我们需要重组，需要改变工作方式，需要重新设计组织架构，流程也应该不同。我们现在正在推进这件事。我觉得非常令人兴奋。

I think for us right now, because the models got a lot better in December last year, our team was pretty skeptical last year, but this year people are on board with it. Where we want to start is within our software team because that's where I think we can get the most leverage. So I've become a heavy user of Claude Code now. I took a Java class in the university, but that's been many, many years and I haven't touched coding. So I'm able to create really cool things in just 20 minutes now. And I think on one hand that's pretty inspiring to the team, but it's also a bit scary that I can do it and they might take a year to create one of those features. So just as a proof of concept, like a demo I made was if you have two phones, you can hover your hand on one phone, and if you have a photo open on that phone, you just grab that photo, and then you take your hand to the other phone and just drop the photo there as a way of file transfer. It looks like sci-fi, but I just live coded it in like 2 hours. And if I can do it, then the team should be able to do it, and so now we're just trying to inspire the team to move a lot faster. And the organization needs to change a lot, right? Because if you think about the roles, there used to be product managers, designers, and engineers. But today, you don't need that anymore. Like one person will make the entire thing. So we need to reorganize. We need to change the way of working. We need to design the org chart differently. The processes should be different. We're working through that right now. I think it's really exciting.

太好了。我们来谈谈你们的新品发布，以及 Nothing 下一步的计划。你们最近发布了 Phone 4A 和 4A Pro，对吧？这些是你们的中端市场设备，对吧？那为什么专注于这部分市场？

Great. Let's talk about your new launches and kind of what's next for Nothing. You recently launched Phone 4A and 4A Pro, right? And these are your mid-tier market devices, right? So why focus on that part of the market?

在我们这个行业，有旗舰机和中端机。有些公司还有低端机。我们去年 7 月发布了旗舰机 Phone 3。旗舰意味着你最好的产品。但我认为我们行业里有个误解，人们只是问供应商“有什么新的？”然后把它打包成产品。比如问索尼有什么新的相机传感器，问芯片供应商“你们最新的处理器是什么？”等等。他们只是把最新的东西打包进一个产品，然后称之为旗舰。对我来说，那不是旗舰。那只是把供应商的东西拼在一起。对我来说，旗舰是你最有创意的想法的展示。所以去年我们发布旗舰机时，我们推出了 Essential Apps 和 Essential Space 以及一些功能，Glyph Matrix，背面的小屏幕，也对社区开放，让他们可以在上面构建。我不想每年都发布旗舰机，只是为了说我们每年都有旗舰机。我想在有新东西推向市场的时候才发布旗舰机。所以这就是为什么我们今年没有旗舰机。然而，我们确实想每年更新中端产品线，因为那是我们最受欢迎的产品线，很多人都在期待我们接下来会推出什么。我们在中端市场的巨大机会是其他公司并不真正在意。他们每年都把最好的团队放在旗舰机上，而中端机则外包或不用最好的团队，这就是我们的机会。我们把 A 队放在中端机上，这就是我们最近市场份额增长的原因。

So in our industry, you have flagships and you have mid-tiers. Some companies have low-end. We released our flagship phone, Phone 3, in July last year. And flagship means like the best you have to offer. But I think there's a misunderstanding in our industry where people kind of just ask their suppliers, 'Hey, what's new?' and just package that into a product. So asking Sony, you know, what new camera sensors do you have? Asking the chipset provider, 'What's the latest processor you have?' etc. And they're just packaging all the latest stuff into a product and calling it a flagship. For me, that's not a flagship. That's like you just kind of put everything together from the suppliers. For me, a flagship is like the showcase of your most creative ideas. So last year when we released our flagship phone, we released essential apps and essential space and a couple of those features, the glyph matrix, the little screen on the back, which is also open for our community to build on top of. I don't want to release a flagship phone every year just to say we have a flagship phone every year. I want to release a flagship phone whenever we have something new to bring to the market. So that's why we don't have a flagship phone this year. However, we do want to update our mid-range every year because it is like the most popular product range that we have and a lot of people are anticipating whatever comes next. And the big opportunity for us in the mid-range market is the other companies don't really care. They put their best teams on the flagship every year and they kind of outsource or use not their best team on the mid-range, which is our opportunity. We put the A team on the mid-range and that's why we've been gaining market share recently.

是的，而且你们第一次使用了颜色，对吧？

Yeah, and you used colors for the first time, right?

是的，我们一直非常严格地不使用颜色，因为我们想让每个人都记住标志性的设计。我们觉得颜色会分散人们的注意力。但现在我们觉得市场已经被我们的设计语言训练了 5 年了。是时候稍微改变一下了。

Yeah, we've been really strict with not using colors because we wanted to have everybody remember the iconic design. And we felt like colors would distract people. But now we feel like the market has been kind of trained on our design language for 5 years already. It's time to change it up a little bit.

是的，我猜你在考虑颜色的时候，年轻受众也很重要吧。

Yeah, is that uh I also imagine your younger audience is kind of important, too, there when you're thinking about colors.

是的，作为一个科技品牌，面向科技/创意受众，一开始我们吸引了大约 90% 的男性用户。我们确实想让用户群体更多元化，我觉得颜色也是一个好办法。

Yeah, and um as a tech brand, speaking to like a tech/creative audience, in the beginning, we attracted like 90% male audience. Uh we do want to diversify our user base, and I think colors is also a good way of doing that.

我想提醒一下观众，我们稍后会进入观众问答环节，我再问几个问题，但你们可以在应用里开始提问。那么，我们来谈谈美国市场。你在这里还没有很大的存在感。但我觉得部分原因在于你们的手机分销方式，对吧？而且你们也没有和美国运营商合作。美国市场下一步怎么走？

Um I just want to remind our audience we'll turn to audience Q&A in a I'll ask a few more questions, but you can do that within the app is uh start asking those questions. Um so let's talk about the US market. You don't have a huge presence here yet. Um but you and I think part of that is just the way that you've distributed phones, right? Also that you don't have partnerships with US carriers. What's next for the US?

是的，这是有意为之。我们想先在别的地方扩大规模，在那里能比在美国更快获得规模。但从今年开始，我们要认真对待美国市场了。我们开始在这里组建团队。但我觉得这里的策略得有点不同，因为苹果在普通人群中垄断太严重了，市场份额大约 60%。18 岁及以下人群里，高达 90%。所以我在想，智能手机是不是在这里推出的最佳产品。与此同时，我们的音频产品在这里即使我们没怎么发力也卖得很好，已经是我们的最大市场了。而且我们这里的大多数音频用户都是搭配 iPhone 使用的。所以也许那是一个不错的切入点。

Yeah, it's by design. Um we wanted to scale up in other places first where we could gain the scale uh quicker than in the US. Um but starting this year, we're going to take the US market seriously. We started to build our team here. And um but I think the strategy here has to be a little bit different because um Apple has such a monopoly here amongst the general population. It's like 60% market share. And for 18 and below, it's like 90%. Um so I'm wondering whether smartphones is the best uh product to launch here. Uh meanwhile, our audio products, they're doing really well here even without us doing much. It's already our biggest market. Um and most of our audio users here are pairing it with their iPhones. So maybe that's like a good place to start.

我们应该和运营商谈谈。我们已经好几年没和美国运营商接触了，就是为了分享我们对未来的想法，看看有没有短期合作机会。

Um we should talk to the carriers. It's been a couple of years we haven't engaged with them in the US just to uh share our ideas for the future and see whether there's some short-term opportunities to work together.

但我觉得最重要也最有趣的事情是重新发明智能手机。在 AI 时代，从硬件层面和软件层面来看，智能手机应该是什么样子？iPhone 是很棒的产品。如果我们只是做一款和 iPhone 类似、设计更酷的产品，我觉得那不够。人们不会换的。我们必须提供一种根本不同且更好的体验。我觉得我们有机会做到。所以，那是我们未来几年在这里更有趣的事情。

But I think the major the most fun thing to do is to reinvent the smartphone. Um in the age of AI, like what does a smartphone look like from a hardware level and a software level? Um iPhones are great products. If we just have a product that's similar to that to the iPhone and uh with a cooler design, I don't think that's it's to cut it. People they're not going to switch. We have to deliver an experience that's fundamentally different and better. And I think we have the opportunity to do so. So, that's the more interesting things in a couple of years for us here.

听起来你准备回到美国音频业务的起点，然后弥合那个差距。希望人们能迷上 Nothing。

Yeah, it sounds like you're ready to kind of go back to where you started with audio in the US and then bridge that gap. Hope that people get a hooked on nothing.

是的，你知道，在我们 5 年的旅程中，我们是一步一步走的。当我们研究这个行业，看到过去 15 年所有尝试者都失败了，我们就说，先打好坚实的基础吧。供应链伙伴、团队，因为从有一个产品想法到真正出货，中间有太多步骤，从质量控制到设计、软件工程、硬件工程、客户支持等等。所以，我们当时在产品创新上并没有太激进，除了设计和一些软件。但现在我们达到了接近 10 亿美元的收入规模。我们觉得是时候开始冒险了。所以从今年开始，我们要在行业里占据更多的思想领导地位。不只是做那些已经存在、别人做了几十年的产品，还要开始创造新颖的产品。我觉得一旦我们做到了，美国市场会对我们的产品接受得多。

Yeah, I think you know, we um in our 5-year journey, we've taken it kind of step by step. Um when we studied the industry and we saw that everybody who tried had failed in the past 15 years, we said, let's just establish solid foundations first. Supply chain partnerships, um the team because like having an idea for a product and shipping the product, there's so many steps that you have to take from quality control to design to software engineering, hardware engineering, customer support, like all that stuff. So, we weren't really pushing on product innovation that much beyond design and some software. Uh but now we reached almost a billion uh revenue scale. We feel it's time to take start taking the risks. Like So, starting this year, we're going to take more of a thought leadership position in the industry. Not just make these products that already exist that other people have made for decades, but also create starting to create like novel products. And I think once we do that, the US market will be a lot more receptive to our products.

听起来你已经开始在美国招人了。能透露一下这里的员工人数吗？未来一年你希望发展到什么规模？

Yeah, and it sounds like you're already hiring here in the US. Um can you tell me anything about employee head count here, where you're hoping to go in the in this coming year?

我们现在这里只有两个人。是的，这只是开始。嗯，最初我以为我们会把总部设在旧金山，但你知道，我们遇到了一些不想搬家的人。所以，也许一开始我们会在这里组建一个远程团队，等业务达到一定规模后，再决定以后建办公室。

Uh we're two people here now. Yeah, it's a it's the beginning. Um yeah, initially I thought we would be based I'll be be based in SF, but uh you know, we we met some people who didn't want to move didn't want to move. So, maybe we'll just have a remote team here in the beginning and then once the business reaches some scale, we decide to uh build an office later.

好的。从宏观角度看，你做消费科技公司也有一段时间了。你学到了哪些刚开始时不懂的行业知识？

Okay. Um just kind of big picture. I mean, you've been building consumer tech companies for a while now. Uh what have you learned about the industry that you didn't understand when you started?

因为我以前是局外人。我曾经是这些产品和公司的粉丝，会有很多想法和建议，嘿，如果我经营这家公司，我会做得不一样。现在我收到很多别人的建议。你知道，有些我真的很想做，但就是太难了。所以我学到了很多为什么很多事情做不了的现实原因。比如，人们想要小屏手机。我也想要小屏手机。但小屏手机的市场很小。所以如果我们做小屏手机，卖不了多少，会亏钱。所以我觉得最大的学习是，从内部了解事情是如何运作的，以及我们必须多么理性，因为一个硬件失败、一个不成功的产品，相比一个可以立即修补的软件 bug，代价太大了。

Um cuz I used to be an outsider. I used to be a fan of these products and these companies and I would have a lot of ideas and suggestions and hey, if I ran this company, I would do things differently. Um Today I get a lot of suggestions from other people. And um you know, some of them I really want to do, but they're just so hard to do. Like so, I've learned all the practical reasons to why you can't do a lot of things. For instance, um people want smaller phones. I also want a smaller phone. But the market for small phones is it's it's small. So, if we made a small phone, it wouldn't sell we wouldn't sell a lot of those and we would lose money. Um so, I think the biggest learning is like the >> >> like knowing from the inside how things work and how rational we have to be because a hardware failure, a product that doesn't succeed is just so costly compared to a software bug that you can patch immediately.

看来你越来越擅长忽略一些想法了。

Okay, you're getting better at ignoring ideas, too. It seems like

不是忽略，而是我们应该有所筛选。

not ignoring, but we should kind of filter.

是的，是的，是的。

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

那么，Nothing 的下一步是什么？你之前提到希望在未来几年内做好 IPO 准备。你仍然认为那在计划中吗？要实现需要什么条件？

Um I mean, what's what's next for nothing? You've talked about wanting to be IPO ready in the next few years. Is that Do you still see that as being on the horizon? And what has to happen to make that?

是的，这不是什么重要的事。我不是为了上市然后离开，因为我已经试过退休了，那很无聊。所以如果我们 IPO，那更像是如果需要钱就再进行一轮融资，然后我们会看看是私下拿钱还是公开拿钱。基本上我们会权衡利弊。所以我们在内部说，让我们做好准备，到 2028 年底，我们不一定非要上市，但要把内部理顺，建立正确的团队、正确的流程，做好准备。但我觉得这不是什么大事。大事是打造传奇产品。我们能不能从做已有的产品，进化到真正定义人类和计算机交互的未来？

Yeah, um it's not an important thing. Like I'm not looking to IPO and then leave because uh I tried retiring already and it's it's very boring. Um so, if we do an IPO, it's more just another fundraising round if we need the money and then we will we will see whether we take the money privately or or publicly. We'll we'll weigh the pros and cons, basically. Um so, we've said internally, let's just be ready and by the end of 2028 and then we don't have to do it, but let's get our house in order, build the right teams, right right processes, um and just be ready. But it's not a big deal, I think. The big deal is more building like legendary products. Can we evolve from building products that already exist to really defining the future of how humans and computers interact?

好的，最后一个问题，然后我们把时间交给观众。如果我们 5 年后再次进行这场对话，你觉得到那时，我们每天使用设备的方式最大的变化会是什么？

Okay, last question for me and then we'll turn it over to the audience, but um if we have this conversation again in 5 years, I mean, at that point, what do you think will have changed the most about how we handle just like our devices every day?

我觉得智能手机仍然会存在。我们太爱手机了，它不会消失，但我确实认为操作系统会发生重大变化。还会有一些对我们很重要的新设备。这是一个非常激动人心的时代。

Uh I think the smartphone will still exist. Um we just love our phones too much for it to disappear, but I do think the operating system will change significantly. Um there will also be a couple of new devices that are important to us. Um it's a very exciting time.

整个行业都在测试新想法，我们肯定也会测试一些新的产品形态和新点子。但 5 年后，我们会作为行业找到几个人们真正喜欢的东西。

The entire industry is testing new ideas, and we're definitely going to test some new form factors and some new ideas as well. But in 5 years from now, we'll have landed on a couple of things that people love as an industry.

是的，我觉得这个观众提问正好衔接上了。什么会成为手机的下一代杀手？眼镜、隐形眼镜？这需要多长时间？

Yeah, I think this audience question is a good tie into that. What will be the next killer of cell phones? Glasses, contact lenses? How long will that take?

我认为唯一真正的杀手会是脑机接口，基本上就是大脑里的芯片。在那之前，我觉得智能手机太普及了，每年卖出 10 亿部，现在有 50 亿部手机在使用中。其他产品仍然会存在，仍然有价值，但它们不会成为你的主要设备。所以，是的，眼镜、手表、吊坠、音箱，会有很多其他产品让我们觉得有价值，用来增强智能手机，但不会取代智能手机。

I think the only real killer will be a brain computer interface. Basically, a chip in your brain. Before that, I think smartphones are just too prevalent. Like a billion are sold every year. There's 5 billion phones out there being used right now. The other products will still exist. They will still be valuable, but they're not going to be your main device. So, yes, glasses, watches, pendants, speakers, there will be a lot of other products that we find valuable to augment the smartphone, but it won't take over the smartphone.

有意思。好的，我们看看还有什么。如果你觉得有什么有趣的也告诉我，但你对无屏幕设备怎么看？比如 OpenAI 可能正在开发的新产品。

Interesting. Okay, let's see what else. Tell me if anything looks interesting to you, too, but what's your view on screenless gadgets? Like the potential new product that OpenAI is developing.

我个人看法是，我是这么想的：人类说话比打字快。我觉得我们每分钟能说大约 200 个词，而打字可能只有 50 个左右。所以效率差异很大。但我们也比写字读得快。因此，阅读非常重要。所以，如果你去掉屏幕，你就让使用变得非常困难。因为听比读慢得多。所以我真正相信的界面是语音输入，因为说话是最简单的输入方式，而不是音频输出。输出仍然是屏幕加文字。我们读文字很快，但如果我们把文字组织成易于扫描的界面，比如标题、要点或图形，我认为那是最有效的用户界面。所以，我认为最终会是语音输入为主，界面输出。

My personal view is that, well, I think about it this way. So, humans we speak faster than we can type. I think we can speak at like 200 words per minute and we type at maybe 50 or something like that. So, that's a big difference in efficiency. But we also read faster than we can write. So, therefore, reading is very important. So, if you remove the screen, you're just making it really hard to use. Like listening is way slower than reading. So, the interface that I really believe in is voice in because speaking is the easiest way to input something, and not audio out. It's still a screen out with text. We read text pretty quickly, but if we organize the text in a UI that's simple to scan like headings and bullet points or graphics, I think that's the most efficient user interface. So, I think ultimately it's going to be mainly voice in, UI out.

这里还有一个关于苹果的问题。苹果靠生态系统取胜，比如 iMessage、AirDrop。Nothing 怎么看待生态系统？你们计划构建一个，还是做完全不同的东西？

Here's another question about Apple. Apple wins on ecosystem, iMessage, AirDrop. How does Nothing think about ecosystem? Do you plan to build one or do something completely different?

我们必须这么做。我们必须，但前提是我们能提供价值，而我认为价值在于创造下一代操作系统。如果我们能找到一个人们喜欢的产品定义，并让它适配多种设备，让它根据你拥有的设备流动，从一个设备流到另一个设备，那就成了我们的生态系统。所以，在未来的无应用世界里，当你拥有这个操作系统时，你可能会在上班路上开始查询它。哦，我待会儿想吃日本菜，它就说：“嘿，拿起你的手机。”因为你得看界面。所以，我认为类似那样的东西会是我们未来的生态系统。

We have to. We have to, but only if we can provide value, and I think the value is in creating the next generation operating system. If we can find a product definition that people love and adapt it across multiple devices, so it kind of flows depending on what devices you have and it flows from one device to the other, that becomes our ecosystem. So, in the future world without apps, when you have this operating system, you know, you might start querying it when you're walking to work. Oh, I want Japanese food later, and it says, 'Hey, pick up your phone.' Because you got to look at the UI. So, I think that something like that will be our future ecosystem.

有意思。对于一个创意型联合创始人来说，哪些是能给产品公司带来最大价值的首批员工？

Interesting. For a creative co-founder, who are essentially the first hires to bring the most value for a product company?

是的，我实际上不是创意型联合创始人。我更像是一个资源整合型联合创始人。我找到优秀的人，找到资金，也许我帮忙制定战略。所以，我想一般来说，当你组建团队时，你只需要找到能弥补你弱点的人。因为你试图建立一个没有弱点的团队。所以，如果你了解自己的长处和短处，你的团队就应该覆盖这些。

Yeah, I'm actually not a creative co-founder. I'm more like a resource integrator co-founder. I find people that are great and I find money, and maybe I help set the strategy. So, I guess in general, when you build a team, you just got to find people that complement your weaknesses. Because you're trying to build a team that doesn't have any weakness. So, if you understand your strengths and weaknesses, your team should cover those.

我们看看。你们正在全球开设实体店，而且刚宣布在纽约开一家，对吗？

Let's see. You're opening physical stores globally and you just announced one in New York, right?

我们现在正在纽约寻找地点。

We're scouting for locations in New York right now.

好的。在一个日益数字化和 AI 驱动的世界里，实体空间扮演什么角色？

Okay. What role does place play in a world that's increasingly digital and AI driven?

是的，我对此想了很多。就电子产品商店而言，过去是百思买模式，有销售人员按佣金推销产品。后来苹果做零售，他们把它变成了体验。没有人向你推销产品，但你可以了解产品。如果你的产品有问题，有人能帮你解决。但那个模式出来后，每个人都抄袭了。所以微软商店看起来像苹果商店的复制品，只是里面没人。戴森商店有点像苹果商店的黑色版。但那个模式现在已经有 20 年了。所以当我们建店时，我们有一个新想法。让我们关注，你知道，走进来的 100 个人里，有多少人会拍照？我们不要太在意销售或其他东西，但如果我们能创造足够鼓舞人心的体验，让人想拍照发给朋友，或者拍视频发给朋友，那应该是第一 KPI。我们大约一个月前在印度班加罗尔开了一家店。有 2000 人排队。我们有保安。非常受欢迎。所以再说一次，商店是关于设计，激发创造力。

Yeah, I thought about this a lot. So, in terms of electronic stores, it used to be like the Best Buy model where you had sales people trying to sell you products on commission. And then when Apple did retail, they kind of made it about experience. There's nobody trying to push a product to you, but you can learn about the product. And if you had a problem with the product, somebody could help you fix the problem. But after that model came out, everybody just copied it. So, the Microsoft store looks like a copy of Apple store just without any people in it. And the Dyson store is kind of a black version of the Apple store. But that model is 20 years old now. So when we build stores, we have a new idea. Let's make it about, you know, out of a hundred people who walk in, how many people take a photo? Like, let's not care that much about sales or the other stuff, but if we can create an inspiring enough experience for somebody to want to take a photo and send it to their friends or a video and send it to their friends, that should be the number one KPI. We just opened a store in Bangalore in India maybe a month ago. We had 2,000 people queue up. We had security. It was pretty popular. So again, the stores are about the design, inspiring creativity.

是的。我们看看。再回答几个观众提问。我肯定你收到过收购你公司的报价。你将来会考虑退出吗？还是这对你来说不可谈判？为什么？

Yeah. Let's see. Take a couple more audience questions. I'm sure you've received offers to buy out your company. Will you ever be open to an exit? Or is that non-negotiable for you? And why?

这不是主要路径。我认为这可以是一场无限游戏。我们可以继续建设，随着时间的推移不断改进公司和产品。所以这不是默认选项，但也不是不可能。如果我们能与一家公司合作，加速实现使命的速度，我们仍然应该考虑。

It's not the primary path. I think this could be like an infinite game. We can keep building and keep improving the company over time and the products over time. So it's not the default, but it's not out of the question. We should still consider it if we can collaborate with a company to accelerate how fast we can achieve the mission.

在一个智能体主动为我做事的世界上，你对用户隐私有什么看法？我们该在哪里划清界限？

What are your thoughts on user privacy in a world where an agent is proactively doing things for me? Where do we draw the line?

我认为这是一个非常好的话题。我也想过很多。回到那个例子，你知道，当我使用一些大型语言模型时，我觉得它正在从我过去告诉它的事情中建立联系。所以从某种意义上说，这有点诡异，对吧？因为我认为很快，如果我们继续像现在这样使用这些产品，它将能够创建我们的数字复制品，因为我们喂给了它这么多数据。所以将来，当你给我发邮件或发短信时，你不再知道那是不是人类了。你将无法分辨区别。然后如果发生这种情况，接下来会发生的是，当人形机器人变得更加普遍时，它可以创建我的物理复制品。然后我们作为人类，就失去了人性。所以在未来几年的某个时候，必须有一种中断，让我们停止分享最私密的数据。

I think this is a very good topic. It's something I thought about a lot as well. And going back to the example of, you know, when I use some of the large language models, I feel like it's making connections from things I've told it in the past. So in a way that's kind of eerie, right? Because I think soon, if we keep using these products the same way we use it now, it's going to be able to create a digital replica of us because we've fed it with so much of our data. So in the future, when you're emailing me or texting me, you don't know if it's a human anymore. And you won't be able to tell a difference. And then if this happens, the next thing that will happen is it can create a physical replica of me when humanoid robots become more prevalent. And then we kind of as humans, we lose our humanity. So at some point in the next couple of years, there has to be some kind of a break from this where we stop sharing our most intimate data.

具体怎么运作，我们还在思考。是做一个个人硬件设备，比如桌上的电脑，存放你最私密的数据和最私密的推理算力，所以它既是云又是本地的混合模式。或者我们在纯云模式上加一些安全层。我还不确定。但我认为未来两年内，我们需要来个转折，停止共享所有数据。

Exactly how that's going to work, we're still thinking it through. Whether it's a personal hardware device like a computer on your desk where you keep your most intimate data and your most intimate inference compute, so it's like a cloud but also local hybrid model. Or we add some security layers in a pure cloud model. I don't know yet. But I think somewhere in the next 2 years, we need to create a break and stop sharing all the data.

这又说到 OpenAI 聘请 Jony Ive 做硬件。你觉得他们有机会做出真正颠覆性的 AI 原生设备吗？

This is again about OpenAI hiring Jony Ive for hardware. Do you see a chance for them to create a truly disruptive AI native device?

我是说，我是看着 Jony Ive 的很多设计长大的，我真的很喜欢。所以我觉得我们行业正处在一个复兴时期。过去十年很无聊。现在有了 AI，每个人都在尝试新想法，看看什么能行得通，什么能留下来。所以真的很期待他们能做出什么。我不知道会不会成功。就像我们也有几款 AI 原生设备，我们也不知道会不会成功，但至少每个人都在尝试，我们可以互相学习，这会是一个非常激动人心、充满活力的时代。走着瞧吧。

I mean, I grew up with a lot of Jony Ive's designs that I really loved. So I think we're in a renaissance time for our industry. It was boring for 10 years. Now with AI, everybody's trying new ideas and seeing what's going to work, what sticks. So really excited to see what they make. I don't know if it's going to stick or not. Like we also have a couple of AI native devices. We don't know if it's going to stick or not, but at least everybody's trying and we can learn from each other and it's going to be a very exciting and dynamic time. Let's see.

十年过去了，变化很大。你还会接受三星的实习机会吗？

It's 10 years and things have changed a lot. Would you still accept an internship from Samsung?

哦，是的，我大概在 2015 年申请过三星的实习。我写了一篇博客，因为当时我有另一家创业公司，我觉得自己力不从心。所以我写了一封公开的实习申请信，想向三星学习。然后他们告诉韩国媒体，任何人，不管是不是名人，想在三星工作都需要走正规流程。我还想不想去？不了，我现在太忙了。

Oh yeah, I applied for an internship at Samsung around 2015, I think. I wrote a blog post because I had another startup and I felt I was out of my depth. So I wrote a public internship application letter to learn from Samsung. And they told the Korean media that anybody, no matter if it's a celebrity or not, who wants to have a job at Samsung needs to go through the regular process. Do I still want to do it? No, I'm too busy now.

随着 Android 适应多种屏幕尺寸，移动芯片变得如此强大，我们很快能看到 Nothing 推出全合一设备吗？

With Android adapting to multiple screen sizes and mobile chips becoming so powerful, can we see an all-in-one Nothing device anytime soon?

我认为未来不会是全合一设备，而是多设备。因为你想，AI 越了解你，就越能帮你。我们会希望设备帮我们收集更多上下文，喂给我们的个人智能。手机有点像全合一设备，但它不是随时可用。比如现在我把它放在口袋里。当我在城里走路时，我不想这样用手机。我希望有其他设备在那里帮我收集上下文。我想收集上下文，因为我明白，我给智能提供的上下文越多，它就越能帮我。所以我认为未来几年，我们会看到更多样化的形态，而不是走向全合一。

I think the future will not be all-in-one devices. It'll be multiple devices. Because if you think about AI, the more it knows about you, the better it can help you. And we will want devices to help us collect more context and feed it into our personal intelligence. The phone is kind of like an all-in-one device, but it's not always available. Like now I have it in my pocket. When I'm walking in town, I don't want to use my phone like this. I want other devices to be there to collect context for me. And I want to collect context because I learn that the more context I give my intelligence, the better it can help me. So I think in the next couple of years, we're going to see more and more diverse form factors versus things going to an all-in-one.

我们还有时间再问几个问题。五年后，真正的个人设备会是什么样子，而不仅仅是个性化算法？

We have time for a couple more. What does a truly personal device look like in 5 years beyond just personalization algorithms?

我认为硬件方面，我们差不多到顶了，对吧？比如出色的屏幕、出色的电池、出色的相机。我觉得回到我之前说的，软件会有很多变化。但我认为主要的大变化是我们与产品的关系。比如今天，它是一个非常手动使用的产品。我们有一个想法、一个意图，然后我们通过手动步骤去执行。未来，它会非常主动，因为它非常了解我们。而且随着时间的推移，我们会建立信任。你知道，一开始，如果有一笔交易，我们可能想看看界面。嘿，你想支付这笔钱给你订的这个东西吗？一旦它成功做了一千次，你可能就会信任它自主完成。所以我认为主要区别将是我们与技术的关系，而不一定是硬件。

I think hardware-wise, we are kind of at peak, right? Like great screens, great battery, great camera. I think going back to what I said before, it's going to be a lot of changes on the software. But I think the main big change is our relationship to the product. Like today, it's a very manual use product. We have an idea, an intention. We go through manual steps to execute that. In the future, it will be so proactive because it knows us so well. And over time, we will have established trust. You know, in the beginning, if there's a transaction, we might want to have a look at the UI. Hey, do you want to pay this amount to this thing that you ordered? Once it's done that a thousand times successfully, you can probably trust it to just do it autonomously. So I think the main difference is going to be our relationship with technology, not necessarily the hardware.

最后几个问题里，有哪个让你特别兴奋吗？

Any of these look extra exciting to you for our final questions?

也许我们可以做第一个或最后一个。

Maybe we can do the first one or the last one.

好，我们做最后一个。如果我每天都用 Mac 和 iPad，为什么还要从 iPhone 换成 Nothing 手机？

Yeah, let's do the last one. Why should I switch from iPhone to Nothing phone if I use Mac and iPad daily as well?

我每天都用 Mac。我认为它是最好的电脑。它用起来很好。我们的用户换机的原因就是他们不想和别人一样。当全世界都用同样的白色苹果 AirPods 时，他们想与众不同。我们都是不同的人。有些人想表达自己的个性。这就是尝试的理由。而且你知道，苹果在美国太受欢迎了，很多人以为它是唯一的选择。谁知道呢？如果你试试不同的东西，也许那边的草更绿。

I use Mac daily. It's the best computer, I think. It works pretty well. The reason why our users switch is because they just don't want to be like everybody else. When the entire world is using the same white Apple AirPods, they want to be different. We're all different people. Some people want to express their individuality. That would be the reason to try. And you know, Apple is so popular here in the US that a lot of people think that it's the only option. Who knows? If you try something different, the grass might be greener on the other side.

所以这又回到我说的，每个人都很在意他们的绿色或蓝色气泡。但你说的是，你知道，在这里要尝试与众不同。这大概就是卖点。你可以通过设备以不同的方式表达自己。

So it goes back to what I'm talking about where everyone's really concerned about their green or blue text bubble. But what you're saying is that, you know, try to be different here. That's sort of the pitch. There's different ways to express yourself through your devices.

是的，我认为有一部分人不想和别人一样，他们想站在最前沿，想尝试新事物。这些人就是我们目前服务的对象。希望未来当我们开始在软件方面发布一些想法时，我们也能吸引其他类型的人。

Yeah, I think there's a portion of people out there who don't want to be like everybody else, who want to be on the bleeding edge, who want to try new things. And those are the people that we're currently catering to. Hopefully in the future as we start releasing some of our ideas on the software side, we will also attract other types of people.

好的。那么，谢谢。谢谢你，Carl，和我聊天。感谢我们的观众加入我们。祝你们在西南偏南大会上玩得开心。不幸的是，我们时间到了。谢谢大家。

Okay. Well, thank you. Thank you, Carl, for chatting with me. Thank you to our audience for joining us. Have a great South by. Unfortunately, we're out of time. Thank you all.