名字游戏：Carl Pei 谈 Nothing 的成功

如果你的公司不成功，任何名字都是坏名字。而如果你的公司成功了，任何名字都会慢慢被大家接受，变成好名字。想想苹果公司，那真是个奇怪的名字，就是一种水果。想象一下叫一家公司“香蕉”。欢迎收听《Access the Tech Industries》内部对话，这是 Vox Media 播客网络的一部分。和往常一样，我身边是我可爱的搭档 Ellis Hamburger。Ellis，你好吗？

If your company is unsuccessful, any name is a bad name. And if your company is successful, any name kind of grows on people and becomes a good name. Like think about Apple. That's such a strange company name. It's just a fruit. Like imagine calling a company banana. Welcome to Access the Tech Industries inside conversation, part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. And as always, I'm here with my lovely co-host, Ellis Hamburger. Ellis, how are you doing?

我很好，我很好。呃，洛杉矶今天有点下雨，这意味着我心情真的很差。

I'm well. I'm well. Uh, it's a little bit of a rainy day here in LA, which means I'm in a really bad mood.

你看起来还好。周末过得愉快吗？

You seem okay. Do you have a good weekend?

是的，我很好。是的，我们带孩子去了拉古纳海滩，就像我跟你说过的，给一个两岁和一个四岁的孩子当保姆兼管家。所以，是的，没有什么比周一比周五更累的了。

Yeah, I'm fine. Yeah, we were in Lagouna Beach with the kids, uh, as I described to you, babysitting/butlering for a 2-year-old and a four-year-old. So, yeah, nothing like starting Monday tire than uh than Friday.

我整个周末都在工作。我还在独立媒体的奋斗圈里，奋斗兄弟圈。

I just worked all weekend. I'm still in uh indie media hustle land. Hustleb bro land.

是啊。自己当老板，独自打拼的感觉怎么样？

Yeah. How does it feel to uh be out on your own hustling when you're the your own boss?

是啊。呃，这很奇怪。是的，我不能再怪老板了。不是说以前真的那样做，但是的，呃，知道责任在自己身上，这很奇怪。

Yeah. Uh it's weird. Yeah. I can't blame a boss anymore. Not that I really did that before, but yeah, it's uh it's weird to know the buck stops with yourself.

我的意思是，你看起来是个相当苛刻的老板，Alex。我觉得自从你开始做 Sources 以来，你每个周末都在工作。

I mean, you seem to be a pretty demanding boss, Alex. I think you've been working every weekend since uh since you started sources

算是相当高的职业道德吧。我只是觉得现在一切都那么重要。我对我们在做的事情感到非常兴奋，无论是播客还是我的通讯 Sources，呃，我就是什么都想要，兄弟。我就是

to a pretty high uh ethic, I guess. I just it feels everything feels so important right now. I just I'm so excited by what we're doing both like with the pod and then with sources, my newsletter and uh I just I just want it all, man. I just

我现在对 AI 超级兴奋。

I'm like so excited about AI right now.

太神奇了。

It's amazing.

可能性是无穷无尽的，

The possibilities are like endless,

兄弟。我们一个月前推出了一个节目。是不是很疯狂？

man. We launched a show a month ago. Isn't that wild?

是的，是的。呃，从没想过我会有一个节目。

It is. It is. Uh, never thought I'd have a show.

嗯，

Well,

但现在看看我们。

but now look at us.

现在你有了。现在我们很快就要成为著名的播客主持人了。嗯，顺便说一下，我们今天的嘉宾是 Nothing 的 CEO Carl Pei。一家非常迷人的公司。这是十年来第一家蓬勃发展的独立智能手机公司，在硬件和软件方面都做了很多有趣的事情。呃，Ellis，你之前和 Carl 合作过，对吧？

Now you do. Now we're soon to be famous podcasters. Um, and by the way, our guest today is Carl Pei, the CEO of Nothing. Really fascinating company. the first indie smartphone company of the last decade that's thriving uh and growing and doing a lot of interesting things both on hardware and software. Uh else you worked with Carl a while ago, right?

是的，我想那差不多是两年前了。在我开始做 Meaning 的时候，我们进行了一些高层战略对话。

Yeah, I think it was like almost a couple years ago at this point. We just kind of had some highlevel strategic convos around the time when I started meaning

只是一些高层战略对话，你知道，一些战略。

just some highlevel strategic convos, you know, some stratey.

是的。无可奉告。无可奉告。是的，那已经是很久以前的事了。我想我忘了问他，他觉得那是不是全部，或者是否真的有价值。

Yeah. No comment. No comment. Yeah, it was a while ago at this point. I guess I forgot to ask him uh if he thought it was all or if it was actually valuable.

嗯，

Well,

我想我们可以留到下一集再说。

I guess we could save that for the next episode.

是的。呃，但是，不，我想回到播客，是的，我们度过了一个疯狂的月份。呃，我们春天决定一起做这个，然后我们想，我们会弄清楚什么时候做，然后呃，一堆事情凑在一起，然后我们从没有名字到一个月内推出节目，现在我们已经做了四集，感觉时间过得飞快。你觉得，我不知道。你觉得是快还是觉得这是一场苦战？

Yeah. Uh but yeah, no, I guess back to the pod like yeah, we we've had a wild month. Uh we decided to do this together in the spring and then we were like h we'll figure out when we're going to do it and then uh a bunch of stuff kind of lined up and then we went from like no name to launching the show in a month and now we've done four episodes and it feels like time is a blur. Like do do you feel like it's I don't know. Do you feel like it's been um fast or do you feel like it's been this has been a grind?

是的，我的意思是我从没想过我会重新回到内容创作的苦海中，但我确实认为每周肯定比每天好。我的意思是，你的通讯多久发一次？我可不羡慕你。每次 Sam Altman 说点什么，你都得半夜醒来，开始在笔记本上写东西或者做别的什么。

Yeah, I mean I never imagined I would be getting back into the content grind, but I do think weekly is certainly better than daily. I mean, how of how often are you doing your newsletter? Like, I do not envy you. Like, every time Sam Alman says something, you have to like wake up in the middle of the night and start writing in your notebook or whatever you do.

我不知道你有没有那种智能体闹钟，或者有个人走进来把你打醒，每当呃

I don't know if you have any like agentic alarm or like some guy that walks in and smacks you awake whenever uh

我正在做。就是一桶冷水浇在我身上，当 Sam 说……

I'm working on it. just a bucket of cold water pouring on me when Sam all

我的意思是，这很好，不管好坏，它迫使你保持最新状态，维持那些关系，保持那些有主见的观点，了解正在发生的事情，但是的，我的意思是，嘿，我要说的是，这比 Business Insider 每周的幻灯片会议要好，呃，我以前每周都要做，那是一种每周的苦差事，我一点都不怀念。

I mean it's it's nice though for better for worse it it forces you to stay up to date to keep those relationships going keep those opinions opinionated knowing what's happening but yeah I mean hey I'll say this is better than the Business Insider weekly slideshow meeting uh that I used to have to do every single week that was a weekly grind that that I do not miss at all

哦，天哪，那是一个不同的时代。是的，嗯，所以你会开始看到我们在社交媒体上重新分享一些过去剧集的片段，因为我们还是一个新节目。我们在成长，嗯，你知道我们有 Zuck、Dylan Field、AI Schiffman，那个朋友公司的 CEO，我现在在洛杉矶到处看到他的广告牌，呃，还有最近的 Ryzen Martin，来自 Hux，Notebook LM 的创造者，顺便说一句，那集我收到了很多很好的反馈。人们真的很喜欢她分享她的故事，我觉得她这样做真的很酷。

oh man a different era yeah um so yeah you're going start seeing us kind of re-sharing on socials some clips from past episodes just since we're still a new show. We're growing and um you know we've had Zuck Dylan Field, AI Schiffman, the friend CEO whose billboards I am seeing more and more now everywhere in Los Angeles uh and Ryzen Martin most recently uh from Hux creator of Notebook LM which I got a lot of great feedback on that episode by the way. I really people loved her sharing her story with us which I thought was really cool of her to do.

是的。我的意思是，很明显，如果你愿意以创始人的身份分享自己，人们会仰视你，他们想学习像你一样，取得像你一样的成功。我的意思是，我觉得最能引起共鸣的片段之一是 Rise 在凌晨 4 点的不确定时刻，关于“我该离开 Google 吗？我从小……你知道……没什么，现在我在 Google 赚很多钱。我怎么能离开去创业呢？”她的丈夫就像是她的支柱，支持她这样做。我的意思是，这就是你想看到的，你知道，在网上走红，不只是“虾耶稣”，对吧？比如励志的东西，有趣的东西，那些人们真正脆弱、真实的一刻，尤其是当创始人通常只是假装自己完美无缺、刀枪不入的时候。

Yeah. I mean it's very clear that if you are down to share yourself as a founder uh people look up to you they want to learn to be like you to have success like you. I mean I feel like one of the clips that that resonated most was Rise's moment of uncertainty at 4 a.m. about should I leave Google? I grew up uh you know uh without much now I'm making good money at Google. How could I leave to start my own thing? and her husband was just kind of this rock for her, supporting her in doing that. And I mean, that's that's what you like to see, you know, going viral online, not just shrimp Jesus, right? Like the motivational stuff, the fun stuff, the moments of like people actually being fragile, real people, especially when founders often just kind of pretend that they're perfect and bulletproof.

所以，是的，能在节目中有那样的时刻真好。

So, yeah, it was nice to uh have that moment on the show.

是的。如果你觉得自己完美无缺，就不要来上《Access》。是的，这是我们的新座右铭。呃，不，我们也处于一个幸运的位置，人们对这个节目和我们所做的事情非常感兴趣，以至于我们的日程排得很满。到目前为止，我们已经安排了到 12 月的精彩嘉宾。我不想剧透太多，但我确实觉得有一个我们想预告一下，因为呃，她上周发布了这个，而你在这方面起了很大的作用。所以，你为什么不谈谈呢？

Yeah. If you think you're perfect, don't come on Access. Yeah, that's our that's our new motto. Uh, no, we're also in the fortunate position where people are so interested in the show and what we're doing that we're pretty booked out. We've got amazing guests lined up through uh December at this point. I don't want to tease too many, but I do think there's one we want to tease because uh she launched this last week and you had a pretty big hand in that. So, why don't you talk about it?

是的。是的。呃，她叫 Eugenia。呃，她是 Replica 的创始人，那是早期的 AI 情感关系服务，现在她创造了一个新东西叫 Wabby，所以我们合作了定位和新的预告网站。所以我觉得这个故事很酷，我的意思是，这当然是一个危险的，因为苹果多年来对替代应用和应用商店非常敏感。我知道在 Snapchat 时代，那是一个非常危险的导航，你知道，在应用内创建应用。苹果真的不喜欢你在应用内创建应用。嗯，所以无论如何，Wabby 允许你接入你生活中的联系人，你知道，无论是你的电子邮件、日历、你的其他方面，并创建小的生成式应用。

Yeah. Yeah. Uh her name is Eugenia. uh she was the founder of replica uh the OG AI relationship uh service and now she has created something new called Wabby and so we kind of worked together on the positioning and also the new teaser website so I think the story was a cool one I mean it's certainly certainly a dangerous one with how how uh sensitive Apple has been about alternative apps and app stores over the years I know that was something that was like very danger dangerous to navigate in the Snapchat years, you know, with with creating apps inside of apps. Apple really doesn't like when you create apps inside of apps. Um, and so anyway, Wabby allows you to plug in your your uh contacts from your life, you know, whether it's your email, your calendar, other aspects of yourself, and create little generative apps.

我觉得最让我兴奋的一点是，它们很简单，但另一方面，当它们能保持简单时，就意味着你不需要 500 个人来做一个新应用，而且没有广告，没有疯狂的推送通知，没有愚蠢的增长黑客手段，也没有用户界面每个角落里你根本不想要的功能。所以这在某种程度上，我认为，也符合卡尔（Carl）的理念，我们接下来会聊到新的 Essential AI 操作系统。你手机上的更多东西，包括应用，都是实时生成或主动为你服务的。我觉得 Wabi 也在朝类似的方向发展。不过我们拭目以待。我的意思是，这些应用质量会好吗？它们真的能用吗？你知道，还有待观察。

And I think the thing that was most exciting to me about it is that they are simple, but on the other hand, it's like when they can be simple, it means that you don't need 500 people to make a new app and there's no ads, there's no crazy notifications, there's no stupid growth hacks, there's no features in every corner of the user interface that you don't actually want. And so it in some ways lines up, I think, with Carl's philosophy as well that we're going to talk about with the new Essential AI operating system. A lot more things on your phone, including apps, kind of generated in real time or proactively for you. And I think Wabi is heading kind of in a similar direction. We'll see though. I mean, are those apps going to be good quality? Do they actually work? You know, remains to be seen.

这让我想起两件事：早期苹果的“有个应用能搞定”（There's an app for that）。现在，似乎终于有了一个适用于一切的应用，也许靠 AI，对吧？然后我想到的另一件事是侘寂（Wabi-sabi）。这家公司在多大程度上受到了侘寂的启发？

Two things I'm reminded of: the early Apple, there's an app for that. Now, it finally seems like there's an app for everything, maybe with AI, right? And then the other thing I'm thinking of is like Wabi-sabi. How wabi-sabi inspired is this company?

有意思。我觉得在精神上是，但在美学上可能不太是。我觉得有很多闪亮的球体。而如果你听到“侘寂”，你会想，哦，这些应用是用木头和黏土做的，有漂亮的铜绿和内部的老化裂纹。但不是那样的。我觉得更多的是改变生活的精神，而不是一个可能一成不变的应用，因为你可以定制这些东西，重新混合它们等等。所以是的，我的意思是，这很有趣。大多数人的主屏幕，当然是我的主屏幕，多年来唯一进入我主屏幕的新应用就是那个日托应用，我讨厌这么说，但它是有史以来最糟糕的应用，现在却在我主屏幕上占了一席之地。但我们会看到的。我的意思是，正如卡尔和尤金妮亚（Eugenia）都说的，我们都在使用的应用越来越是为十亿人打造的，而不是为我们。那么当事情可以变得更定制化时，这个软件格局会开始变成什么样？

It's funny. I think spiritually, but aesthetically, maybe not so much. I think a lot of shiny orbs. Whereas I think if you know you were to hear it's wabi-sabi, you're like, oh these apps are made of wood and clay with nice patinas and aged cracks inside them. But no, it's not that. I think it's more the spirit of life-changing, I would say, as it goes, as opposed to an app that's maybe set in stone, because you can customize these things and remix them and whatnot. So yeah, I mean, it's interesting. Most people's home screens, I mean certainly my home screen, the only new apps that have entered my home screen in years are like the daycare app that is, hate to say, the worst app that's ever been made, that now has a spot on my home screen. But yeah, we'll see. I mean, as Carl and Eugenia both say, the apps we all use are increasingly made for a billion people, not for us. So what does that software landscape start to look like when things can be a bit more bespoke?

无论是掌握在普通人手中，他们现在可以自己用 vibe coding 创建应用，还是操作系统替他们做。我的意思是，我觉得那会很有趣。

Whether that is in the hands of everyday people who are creating apps now that they can vibe code them on their own, or the OSes are doing it for them. I mean, I think that'll be interesting.

说到我们一直在聊的一切，主屏幕上的应用，山姆·奥特曼（Sam Altman）发推……

Well, speaking of literally everything we've been talking about, apps on home screens, Sam Altman tweeting...

你又要来了吗？你又要提 OpenAI 了吗？

Are you about to do it again? Are you about to bring up OpenAI again?

就在我们开始录音之前，我收到一条提醒，说山姆说……

Right before we started recording, I got an alert that Sam says...

所以，你确实有提醒。

So, you do have the alerts.

我有。当然，我有提醒。我收到一条提醒，说 ChatGPT 今年晚些时候会加入色情内容。我想山姆称之为情色文学。但你知道吗？我终于明白他们想搞到那么多 GPU 是干什么用的了：他们要在你的聊天机器人里大规模点亮个性化色情内容。

I do. Of course, I have the alerts. I got an alert that ChatGPT is getting porn later this year. I think Sam's calling it erotica. But you know what? I think I finally understand what all the GPUs they're trying to get are for: they're about to light up personalized porn at scale in your chatbot.

这就是那个笑话，不是吗？色情总是走在最前沿。

Well, that's the joke, isn't it? That porn's always on the cutting edge.

是啊。

Yeah.

蓝光对 HD DVD。我们知道谁赢了那场战争。色情赢了。

The Blu-ray vs HD DVD. We know who won that war. Porn did.

还有蓝光。

And Blu-ray.

总之，关于这个我就说这么多。我只是觉得那挺有意思的。

Anyway, that's all I got to say about that. I just thought that was pretty interesting.

这有点像一种有趣的张力，不是吗？我的意思是，你看 Tumblr 被收购的时候，他们不得不删除所有色情内容，然后又不得不加回来。我们是对此有点清教徒式，还是说“哦，这是关于互联网自由”。我的意思是，这是那种人们似乎无法下定决心的事情之一。

It is kind of like a funny tension, isn't it? I mean, if you look at like when Tumblr was acquired, they had to delete all their porn, then they had to add it back. Are we being kind of puritanical about it or are we saying, 'Oh, it's about internet freedom.' I mean, it's one of those things that people just can't seem to make up their minds about.

是啊。好吧，所有担心 AI 泡沫的人，我觉得在 ChatGPT 里开启色情内容可能会支付一切。所以，我觉得我们会没事的。

Yeah. Well, everyone who's concerned about the AI bubble, I think turning porn on in ChatGPT might pay for everything. So, I think we're going to be okay.

也许吧。也许吧。尤其是当你的色情操作系统主动针对你所有的癖好进行优化时。我的意思是，目前没有理由相信这不会发生，对吧？

It just may. It just may. Especially when your porn operating system is optimized for all of your kinks proactively. I mean, there's no reason to believe that isn't coming at this point, right?

是啊。我本可以在这里开个玩笑，但我不打算开。好吧，让我们开始和来自 Nothing 的卡尔（Carl）的对话。

Yeah. I could have made a joke there, but I'm not going to. Well, okay, let's get into this conversation with Carl from Nothing.

Access 节目的支持来自 Notion。

Support for Access comes from Notion.

埃利斯（Ellis），你是 Notion 的重度用户，对吧？

Ellis, you're a Notion power user, right?

哦，是的。我多年来一直是 Notion 的重度用户。当我们有一个月的时间把 Access 变成现实时，Notion 帮助我们在一个地方跟踪我们的嘉宾数据库、待办事项和笔记。这是真的。

Oh, yeah. I've been a Notion power user for years. And when we had one month to bring Access into reality, Notion helped us track our guest database, to-dos, and notes all in one place. And that is the truth.

这是真的。我们用 Notion 运营这个节目。你知道吗？他们刚刚推出了 Notion 智能体。它们几乎就像可以和你一起使用 Notion 的队友。它们可以在你的工作区中起草、组织、执行，并让你的工作持续推进。我们稍后会详细讨论我们如何使用 Notion，但现在，请在 notion.com/fox 免费试用 Notion 和智能体。

That is the truth. We run this show on Notion. And you know what? They just introduced Notion agents. They're almost like teammates that can use Notion with you. They can draft, organize, and execute across your workspace and keep your work moving. We'll talk more about how we use Notion later, but for now, try Notion and agents for free at notion.com/fox.

Access 节目的支持来自 Warp。Warp 是排名靠前的编码智能体，也是增长最快的 AI 公司之一。受到超过 70 万名开发者和 56% 的财富 500 强公司的信任，Warp 正在重新定义软件的构建方式。它理解你的机器栈和代码库，将终端的功能与 IDE 的交互性相结合，为你提供与智能体紧密的反馈循环，以提示、审查和交付生产就绪的代码。了解为什么开发者平均每周节省 5 小时。在 warp.dev/access 免费试用 Warp，或仅需 5 美元解锁 Pro。

Support for Access comes from Warp. Warp is a top-ranked coding agent and one of the fastest growing AI companies. Trusted by over 700,000 developers and 56% of the Fortune 500, Warp is redefining how software gets built. It understands your machine stack and codebase, combining the power of a terminal with the interactivity of an IDE, giving you a tight feedback loop with agents to prompt, review, and ship production-ready code. Find out why developers save an average of 5 hours a week. Try Warp Free or Unlock Pro for just $5 at warp.dev/access.

卡尔，我们非常高兴你能来。如今创办一家手机公司感觉像是疯了，所以我很想知道你为什么这么做，还有一点你的背景故事。你是怎么成为 Nothing 的 CEO 的？创建一个苹果和谷歌的竞争对手是你一直以来的想法，还是后来才有的？给我们讲讲吧。

Carl, we're so excited to have you. It feels crazy to start a phone company these days, and so I would love to know why you did it and also a little bit about your backstory. How did you come to being the CEO of Nothing? Is creating a competitor to Apple and Google something that you always thought about, or was this something that came later in life? Give us the rundown.

是的，也许我先从我的背景和我是怎么走到这一步的开始。既然你问了这个问题，我记得我特别小的时候，大概 13、14 岁，我有一部诺基亚 3310，我当时想，所有这些手机公司，如果我是其中一家公司的经理，我会做出一些不同的决定，我会让它变得更好。所以，我觉得很多就是从那里开始的。而且，但我必须说，苹果也是我的巨大灵感来源。我在瑞典斯德哥尔摩长大。我记得我是学校里第一个拥有 iPod 的孩子。当我拿到它时，学校里所有的男孩都围着我看着它。我也拿到了第一部 iPhone。那非常复杂，因为它是 AT&T 独家销售的，所以我必须让一个美国朋友帮我买，我想还要付 450 美元的取消费，然后越狱，这样我才能用我的非美国 SIM 卡。但我认为这些早期接触酷科技的经历让我对这个行业非常兴奋。而且你知道，那时一切进展得如此之快。每一代都比上一代好很多。好吧。那么，我的 iPod 发生了什么？我很喜欢它，但它坏了。

Yeah, maybe I'll start with my background and how I got here. Now that you asked this question, I remember when I was like super young, maybe 13, 14, and I had a Nokia 3310 and I was thinking all these phone companies, like if I was a manager at one of these companies, I would make some different decisions and I'll make it better. So, I think that's kind of where a lot of it started. And, but I do have to say Apple was also a big inspiration for me. I grew up in Stockholm, Sweden. I remember I was the first kid in my school to have the iPod. And when I got it, all the boys in the school were like standing around me looking at it. I also got the first iPhone. It was super complicated because it was an AT&T exclusive, so I had to have a friend in the US buy it for me and I think pay a $450 cancellation fee and then jailbreak it so I can use my non-US SIM card. But I think these kind of early experiences with cool technology made me really excited about this industry. And you know, back then everything was progressing so quickly. Every generation was much better than the previous one. Okay. So, what happened with my iPod was I loved it, but it broke.

保修期刚过一周就坏了。那时候 Apple 在瑞典还没有正式业务，他们是通过经销商销售的。所以我给经销商发了邮件，说：“嘿，我是个孩子，我的 iPod 刚过保修期一周就坏了，你能帮帮我吗？”他们说：“很遗憾，根据我们的政策，你只有一年保修期。”我实在买不起新的，所以有点生气，因为只过了一周。那年夏天，我和父母回中国探亲。我去了电脑市场，当时我对中国产品的印象是质量很差，因为那是我从小在新闻里看到的。但我发现了一款我真的很喜欢的 MP3 播放器，它不比 iPod 差，叫 Meizu。现在这个品牌已经不存在了。回到瑞典后，我为这家公司建了一个粉丝网站，后来成了他们的全球粉丝站。我们的社区有 7 万用户。有一次《洛杉矶时报》想写这家公司的报道，我作为社区粉丝代表谈了谈他们的公司。

It broke one week after the warranty ended. And back then, Apple didn't have official business in Sweden. They were selling through a distributor. So I emailed the distributor, like, 'Hey, I'm a kid. My iPod broke just one week after the warranty ended. Can you help me?' And they said, 'Unfortunately, according to our policy, you only have a one-year warranty.' So I couldn't really afford another one. And I got kind of pissed off because it's only one week. And that summer, I traveled back to China with my parents to visit relatives. I went to the computer market, and my impression of Chinese products was really low quality because that's what I saw in the news while growing up. But I found this MP3 player that I really liked, and it wasn't worse than the iPod. It was called the Meizu. They're not really around anymore. When I went home to Sweden, I created a fan site for this company, and we became their global fan site. We had 70,000 users on our community. And one time, when LA Times wanted to write a profile for this company, I was the community fan representative talking about their company.

我在看 Meizu 的维基百科，这东西看起来真酷。哇，非常复古。这是个很棒的故事。

I'm looking at the Wikipedia for the Meizu, and this thing is cool looking. Wow. Very retro. That's a cool story.

我们首先得搞清楚，你是怎么弄坏你的 iPod 的，Carl？你是在做开合跳还是干什么？我的意思是，我知道那当时是世界上最小的硬盘，但因为没有防跳保护之类的，很容易忘记这一点。它就像坦克一样结实。你是怎么弄坏的？

We first need to establish how did you break your iPod, Carl? Were you doing jumping jacks or what were you doing? I mean, I know it was like the world's smallest hard drive at the time, but it was easy to forget because there was no skip protection or whatever. It just kind of worked. The thing was built like a tank. How did you break it?

我不知道，我觉得就是过度使用了。那时候我每天上下学通勤要花大约三个小时，我全程都在听音乐。是的，我觉得就是用得太多。

I don't know. I think I just overused it. Back then, it took me like three hours a day commuting back and forth from school, and I was just listening to music the entire time. And yeah, I think I just used it too much.

你知道吗，疯狂的是，我觉得人们很容易忘记上面还有个打砖块游戏，对吧？我记得……

You know what's crazy? I feel like it's easy to forget there was also like a Brick Breaker game on there as well, right? And I remember...

我也是学校里第一个拥有 iPod 的人。你也是吗，Alex？

I was also the first person at my school to have an iPod. Were you as well, Alex?

是的，差不多。嗯。

Yeah, pretty much. Yeah.

哦，太好了，伙计们。这就是重点。但大家在上面就想干这个。我一直在循环听 The Strokes，而别人都说：“我就想玩打砖块。”

Oh, let's go, boys. That's what this is all about. But that's all people wanted to do on there. I was listening to The Strokes on repeat, and people were like, 'I just want to play Brick Breaker.'

我有点不一样。我花了很多时间在 iTunes 里，确保 ID3 元数据完美，专辑封面也完美。

I was a little bit different. I spent so much time in iTunes making sure the ID3 metadata was perfect and the album art was perfect.

哦，是的，你得把所有专辑封面清理干净，因为从 LimeWire 上扒下来的都是乱的。元数据简直一团糟。

Oh yeah, you got to clean all the album artwork up because when you rip that off LimeWire, it's all messed up. The metadata is just a disaster.

但你当时是不是也在设备上逐曲编辑索尼 MD 播放器的元数据？还是说我在书呆子程度上赢了你？你会喜欢这个的。其实我现在还留着。那是一个老式的索尼 MD 播放器，霓虹蓝的。我是说，你还记得那些设备上的按钮每台都完全不同吗？我们当时还在摸索那会是什么样子。是的，我从来没买过 MD。我有些朋友有，但它们看起来真的很酷。现在回头看那些早期的索尼设计，它们也很惊艳。我是说，人们不再那样设计产品了。

But were you also editing the metadata on device for your Sony MiniDisc player track by track? Or am I beating you on the nerdiness scale with that one? You would have loved this thing. Actually, I still have it. It was an old Sony MiniDisc player. It was neon blue. I mean, do you remember the buttons on all of those were just dramatically different for every single unit, and we were still figuring out what that was going to look like. Yeah. I never bought a MiniDisc. Some of my friends had it, but they looked really cool. And now when you look back at those early Sony designs, they were also spectacular. I mean, people don't design products like that anymore.

是的，我相信那启发了你的团队。我的意思是，我觉得即使是你们在手机和产品上突出特定部分的方式，比如 MD 播放器上录音键的红色点缀，我觉得这被严重低估了。我猜如果你为数十亿人做产品，最终就只会用金属和玻璃。但看起来你有机会做点不一样的、更有趣的东西。

Yeah, I'm sure that inspired your team. I mean, I feel like even the way that you draw attention to specific parts of your phones and your products, like having a red accent for the record button on the MiniDisc player, I feel like it's so underrated. I guess if you're making something for billions of people, you just end up with the metal and glass. But yeah, it seems like you have an opportunity to do something a little different, a little more fun.

确实如此。所以，一开始我们找到了索尼博物馆的照片。我觉得那个博物馆现在已经不存在了。那是东京的一个博物馆，索尼员工会带客人去参观，那里有一整面墙摆满了各种索尼产品。我们说：“嘿，如果 20 年后，我们也能有一面墙的产品，能自豪地和客人分享，那就太棒了。”回到你的问题，为什么做智能手机？因为那是我一辈子在做的事。所以如果我创业，我必须做我熟悉的事情。但不幸的是，我熟悉的事情对初创公司来说是一个非常难进入的行业。所以至少可以说，这是一段旅程。

It's true. So, in the beginning, we found this picture of the Sony Museum. I don't think it exists anymore. It's a museum in Tokyo where Sony employees would take their guests, and it would be like a full wall of different Sony products. And we said, 'Hey, if in 20 years from now, we can also have a wall of products that we'll be proud to share with our guests, that will be so awesome.' And back to your question, why smartphones? That's what I've been doing my entire life. So if I start a startup, I have to do something I'm familiar with. But unfortunately, the thing I'm familiar with is a very tough industry for a startup to break into. So it's been a journey, to say the least.

是的，我对此很着迷，因为很多创始人在应用和这些拥挤的领域里看到机会，尤其是现在大家都在做 AI。而从零开始做一家新的智能手机公司，真的非常雄心勃勃。我在这次采访前研究了 Nothing，确实如此。

Yeah, I'm fascinated by that because a lot of founders see opportunity in apps and all these crowded spaces that everyone is building in, especially with AI these days. And doing a new smartphone company from scratch is just extremely ambitious. I was researching Nothing ahead of this, and it's true.

我的意思是，你们是过去十年里唯一一家新成立的智能手机公司，对吗？

I mean, you guys are the only new smartphone company to be started in the past decade. Is that right?

能活下来。有过几次尝试，但很多都失败了。这就像价值链很长，你必须同时转动很多盘子，才能让这种事成功。而且有太多可能失败的原因。我举个例子，现在回想起来都觉得疯狂，那是我们一开始做成的事。之前那些成立又失败的公司，把我们的供应商吓坏了。所以当我们跟一家大制造商谈的时候，他们说：“嘿，我们过去跟几家初创公司合作过。他们也有很好的资金、很好的投资人、著名的创始人，比你们还厉害，但他们还是失败了。所以，我们不会再跟任何初创公司合作了。我们只做苹果和大公司的生意。”而且以前，在我们之前的那些初创公司试图进入市场时，工厂、制造商会承担所有库存。所以初创公司不需要为库存付现金。但轮到我们的时候，因为大家都怕跟初创公司合作，我们不仅要付库存的钱，还要在拿到产品前四个月就付款，因为他们只想 100% 确定能收到钱，能从这笔交易中赚钱。我们当时想：“天哪。”我们该怎么办？因为作为初创公司，你没有任何现金。我们做成的一件事，我至今仍很感激，就是我们的一个销售渠道。他们非常相信我们，因为他们想在我们做出产品后销售。他们在拿到产品前四个月就把钱汇给了我们。他们以前从没这么做过，还得去董事会审批。但他们做到了。但还有很多这样的情况，我们做了很多看似非常反常或非常困难的事，才能活过这个阶段。

To have survived. There's been a few attempts, but a lot of them failed. It's just like the value chain is very long. So there's so many plates you have to be spinning at the same time for something like this to work. And there's so many reasons that you can fail. I give you just one example of something I think now in hindsight crazy that we pulled off in the beginning. So all these other companies that started and failed, they really scared our suppliers. So when we were talking to a big manufacturer, they were like, "Hey, we worked with a couple of startups in the past. They also had great funding, great investors, famous founders, like you better than you, but they still failed. So you know, we're not going to work with any startups anymore. We're just going to do our Apple and big company business." And back in the day when these other startups before us were trying to enter the market, the factory, the manufacturer would take all the inventory. So the startup doesn't have to, you know, have cash for the inventory. But when it was our turn, because everybody was so scared of working with startups, not only did we have to pay for the inventory, we also had to pay four months before getting the product because they just wanted to be 100% sure that they would get paid and make money on the deal. And we were like, "Holy crap." Like, what do we do about this? Because as a startup, you don't have any cash. The thing we pulled off that I'm still really grateful for is one of our sales channels. They believed in us so much because they wanted to sell the products after we make it. They wired the money to us like 4 months before getting the product. Like they had never done that before and they had to go to their board for approval. But they did it. But there's many cases like this where we've done stuff that's seemingly very abnormal or very difficult to do in order to even survive past this stage.

所以你的供应商就像：“对不起，卡尔，我们刚被安迪·鲁宾和他的 Essential 手机那段关系坑了。我们怎么才能做成这件事？”他们就像纽约的房东，说：“我们需要首月、末月和押金。”

So your supplier was like, "I'm sorry Carl, we just got burned by a situationship with Andy Rubin and his Essential phone. How are we going to make this happen?" They're like New York landlords. Like we're going to need first month, last month, and deposit.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。但不止一家公司，对吧？他们过去被三四家初创公司坑过。

Yeah. But not just one company, right? They were burned by three or four startups in the past.

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那么，Nothing 有什么特质让你不仅活了下来，而且现在似乎还在蓬勃发展？你刚刚筹集了 2 亿美元。你的销售额大概每年翻一番。你发现了什么别人没有发现的东西？是某一件具体的事，还是很多事？

So, what is it about Nothing that has led to you surviving but now also it seems like thriving? You just raised $200 million. Your sales are what, like roughly doubling year-over-year. What did you figure out that no one else figured out? Was there one thing or was it a lot of things?

这是很多事，但也许可以总结为节奏，或者对行业的理解和节奏。我们知道这个行业非常艰难，很容易搞砸，我们必须在初期进行基本能力建设，因为从有一个产品想法到在全球大规模发货，实际上有很多步骤。所以一开始，我们控制了自己的节奏。我们在产品定义上没有太疯狂。如果你想想，我们早期的产品基本上是已经存在的产品，其他公司发明并创造了巨大的品类，我们只是稍微调整了设计，以吸引特定的目标受众，然后从那里逐步增长我们的能力。我认为现在我们到了一个点，回到节奏上，我们已经有了一些扎实的能力，这些基础已经到位，这真的让我们能够对未来采取更积极的步骤，在产品方面承担更多风险。

It's a lot of things but maybe to summarize maybe it's pacing or understanding of the industry and pacing. Like we knew that the industry was very tough and it's easy to mess up and we have to do basic capability building in the beginning because there's so many steps actually from having a product idea to shipping it at scale all across the world. So in the beginning, we kind of paced ourselves. We didn't go too crazy on the product definition. If you think about it, our early products were basically products that already existed that other companies have invented and made huge categories and we just tweaked the design a little bit to appeal to a specific target audience and gradually grew our capabilities from there. I think now we're at a point where going back to pacing we have some of those solid capabilities, these foundations in place, which really enables us to take more aggressive steps into the future and take more risk on the product side.

让人们了解一下 Nothing 今天的现状，因为我觉得尤其是美国人，他们并不真正了解这个品牌。你主要在欧洲和亚洲部分地区、印度很受欢迎。让我们了解一下你的用户是谁，人口统计数据是什么，他们主要是 Z 世代吗，现在在哪里。然后你现在如何看待美国市场？

Give people a sense of Nothing as it exists today, because I think especially people in the US they don't really know the brand. You're mostly big in Europe and parts of Asia, India. Give us a sense of like who your users are, what's the demographic, are they mostly Gen Z, where are today. And then how are you thinking about the US now?

是的，我们快成立 5 年了。我们大约有 800 到 900 人。今年我们的销售额接近 10 亿美元。

Yeah, we are approaching 5 years old. We're roughly 800 to 900 people. We're approaching a billion dollars in sales this year.

如果我们有气喇叭，我们会像 TBPN 那些人一样吹响它。所以，这是一个巨大的里程碑。

If we had an air horn, we'd play that like the TBPN guys. So, that's a huge milestone.

是的。谢谢。我们的用户非常年轻。因为当我们创建这个品牌时，我们认为在最初阶段几乎不可能在全世界每个人中都受欢迎。所以我们必须选择一个方向。我们发现年轻消费者真的与我们的产品产生共鸣。我认为这源于想要与众不同的愿望，比如寻找自己的身份，不想要和父母一样的产品。你知道，在我们成长的过程中，苹果是一家非常酷的公司。但当今天这些孩子成长时，它只是另一家公司。

Yeah. Thanks. And our users are very young. Because when we built this, we were like it's pretty much impossible to be popular among everybody in the world at the very beginning. So we got to pick a lane. And we found that the younger consumer really resonates with our products. I think that it's coming from a place of wanting to be different, like finding their own identity, not wanting the same products as maybe their parents. And you know, when we were growing up, Apple was such a cool company. But when these kids today are growing up, it's kind of just another corporate.

所以他们在年轻人中的品牌影响力不如在我们这一代人中。看看我们的用户，平均年龄是 26 岁。我觉得三星用户的平均年龄大概是 45 岁左右，而且还在不断增长。所以我认为这是一个很好的起点。如果我们能在这些消费者成长过程中很好地满足他们的需求，我认为这会为我们建立一个非常坚实的用户基础。

So they don't have the same brand power among the youth as they have amongst us. If you look at our users, on average, they're 26. I think Samsung's average user age is like 45 or something like that, and it keeps growing. So I think it's a great place to start. And if we can really serve these consumers' needs really well as they grow up, I think it's going to create a really solid user base for us.

我们知道三星在美国已经占领了那些把手机别在腰带上的男士市场，尤其是折叠屏手机。

We know Samsung has cornered the market on dudes with belt holsters here in the United States, especially with the foldables.

是的。

Yeah.

我听说 Carl，你对折叠屏有看法。你开始接受它们了吗？我拿到了新的 Pixel Pro 10 Fold，我很喜欢。

I heard Carl, you have a view on foldables. Are you warming up to them? I've got the new Pixel Pro 10 Fold and I like it.

我希望我能说 Alex 你拿着折叠屏看起来很帅，但我不能。它几乎能挡住我的整张脸。不过，你觉得折叠屏怎么样？

I wish I could say you look great with your foldable, Alex, but I can't. It can just, like, block my whole face here. But yeah, what do you think of foldables?

你对折叠屏怎么看？

What do you think of foldables?

我认为这是一个有趣的产品，但可能目前不适合我们，因为看看折叠屏的现状，年出货量大约是 1700 万台，而智能手机的年出货量是 12 亿台。所以这只是市场很小的一部分。再看看现在谁买折叠屏，通常是商务男士，做播客的。他们需要空间来签署文件或阅读文件。所以如果我们的目标是更年轻的群体，这对我们来说没什么意义。但因为苹果明年会推出折叠屏，我认为那可能会打开市场。所以等他们发布后，我们可以重新评估。

I think it's an interesting product, but probably not for us right now because if you look at the current state of foldables, the annual shipment volume is about 17 million units and annual shipments for smartphones is 1.2 billion. So it's a very, very small part of the market. And if we look at who buys foldables right now, it's usually men who are in business who do podcasts. They need space to sign documents or read documents. So if we're targeting a younger demographic, it doesn't really make sense for us. But because Apple is doing a foldable next year, I think that might open up the market. So after their release, we can reassess.

我记得读过一些数据，美国 87% 的 Z 世代都有 iPhone，这对他们来说是一种身份象征，即使他们不一定喜欢它或对它有很多忠诚度。你打算如何突破这一点？

I remember reading something like 87% of Gen Zers in the States have an iPhone and it's like a status symbol to them, even if they don't necessarily love it or feel a lot of loyalty to it. How are you going to break through that?

这真的很难。而且，苹果在美国的市场份额每年都在增长。如果年轻人已经有 87% 或 90% 在使用 iPhone，想想他们长大后会发生什么。这会变成垄断，对吧？所以我觉得由于这些动态，智能手机业务在美国对我们来说非常艰难。而且苹果的行为肯定没有让我们更容易。有社交因素、品牌因素，还有 iCloud、AirDrop、iMessage 等带来的锁定效应。

It's really tough. And also, every year the Apple market share grows in the US. And if the young people already, like if you say 87 or 90% of the youth already use iPhones, just think about what will happen when they grow up. It will become a monopoly, right? So I feel like the smartphone business is really tough in the US for us because of these dynamics. And Apple's behavior has definitely not made it easier for us. There's a social part, the brand part, but there's also the lock-in effect with iCloud, AirDrop, iMessage, and all that stuff.

是的。

Yeah.

这使得切换变得非常困难。所以我认为美国未来对我们来说将是一个非常重要的市场。它已经是我们耳塞和耳机（音频产品）的最大市场。所以我们可以清楚地看到，如果没有锁定效应，美国在手机方面也会是我们的一个大市场。

Which is making it really hard to switch. So I think the US will be a really important market for us going forward. It's already the biggest market for our earbuds and headphones, our audio products. So we can definitely see that if there's not the lock-in situation going on, the US would be a big market for us on phones as well.

是的。所以我们看到了潜力，随着我们未来探索新的形态，我认为对于这些新形态，美国将是最重要的市场，因为我们在音频产品上已经看到了这一点。为什么不适用于那些不一定与 iPhone 竞争，而是可以与 iPhone 一起使用的全新产品呢？

Yeah. So we see the potential and as we're now looking into new form factors into the future, I think that for those new form factors, the US will be the most important market because we already see that for audio products. Why not for new form factors that are not necessarily competing with iPhone, but are just brand new products that can be used together with iPhone?

锁定效应对我来说真的很有趣，因为是的，切换仍然很困难。虽然我会说，有了云和很多应用现在容易同步，它不像以前那么难了。而且，数据迁移也变快了。我记得以前把数据转移到新手机要花好几个小时，对吧？现在相对快了。我的意思是，我刚用新 iPhone 做过。但是，你知道，我一直拿着谷歌寄给我的 Pixel 试用，它很酷，我想试试，但我就是不想重新学习十年以上的操作系统知识和感觉。很难用语言表达，但感觉最大的障碍之一就是人们固守习惯。也许你做不到。也许教老狗新把戏很难，我想我现在在手机方面就是老狗了。

The lock-in thing is really interesting to me because yes, it is still difficult to switch. Although I would say with cloud and the fact that a lot of apps now easily sync, it's not as difficult as it once was. Also, porting data over has gotten faster. I remember when it took like hours and hours to transfer your data to a new phone, right? And now it's relatively fast. I mean, I just did this with the new iPhone. But, you know, I've been sitting here with this Pixel that Google sent me to try and it's cool and I want to experiment with it, but I just don't want to relearn a decade plus of OS knowledge and just feeling. It's very hard to put into words, but it just feels like one of the biggest things to overcome is actually just people being set in their ways. And maybe you can't. Maybe it's very difficult to teach an old dog new tricks, which is like I guess I'm an old dog when it comes to phones now.

但听起来你的意思是，如果你能让 24 岁的人加入，也许这是他们的第一部手机，他们还没有习惯 iOS 超过 10 年，那才是真正的机会。你不太可能大规模地让千禧一代转换。这样说对吗？

But sounds like what you're saying is if you can get 24-year-olds on board when maybe it's one of their first phones and they haven't been comfortable with iOS for over 10 years, that's the real opportunity. It's not like you're maybe going to switch millennials necessarily in mass. Is that fair?

对，但我仍然认为我们必须以某种方式解决锁定问题，因为如果一个年轻人在 iMessage 上和朋友群聊，他们不想被排除在外。

It's fair, but I still think we'll have to address the lock-in issue somehow because if a young person is chatting in group chats on iMessage with their friends, they don't want to be left out.

是的。好吧，我们能回顾一下吗？我知道有一个时刻，我不知道这只是噱头还是长期计划，Carl，但你们实际上创建了自己的 iMessage 解决方案，对吗？你能带我们回到那个时刻吗？

Yeah. Well, can we revisit that for a second? I know there was a moment, I don't know if this was just a stunt or if this was a long-term plan, Carl, but you guys actually created your own iMessage solution, right? Can you bring us back to that moment?

是的，我想大约在那个时候，两三年前，有一堆公司试图破解 iMessage。我认为他们在云端运行虚拟 Mac 来假装是支持 iMessage 的设备。我们有这个 iMessage 问题，特别是如果你想瞄准美国市场。所以我们和其中一家初创公司合作，但进展不顺利。因为

Yeah, I think around that time, two, three years ago, there were a bunch of companies trying to jailbreak iMessage. I think they were running virtual Macs in the cloud to pretend to be devices that support iMessage. And we had this iMessage problem, especially if you want to target the US. So we worked with one of these startups, and it didn't go very well. Because

我敢肯定那是那天蒂姆·库克办公桌上的第一件事。

I'm sure that was the first thing on Tim Cook's desk that day.

是的，它引起了很多关注，但我们本应更好地审查初创公司的安全措施。所以我们发现了一些安全问题，这引起了很大的争议，我们在 24 小时内关闭了它，再也没有重新开放，因为事后看来，这种变通方法不安全。它也不是永久的。苹果方面很容易修补。所以也许我们应该等到世界各国政府迫使苹果开放它，因为我们已经看到欧盟和司法部在挑战苹果的一些行为的趋势。

Yeah, it got a lot of interest, but we should have vetted the startup's security measures better. So we identified some security issues and it was a big controversy and we shut it down within 24 hours, never to be reopened again because in hindsight this workaround thing is not secure. It's also not permanent. It's easy to patch on Apple's side. So maybe we should just wait until governments around the world force Apple to open it up because we're already seeing trends with the European Union and DOJ really challenging Apple on some of their behaviors.

是的。印度现在是你们手机最大的市场吗？

Yeah. Is India your biggest market right now for phones?

是的。

Yeah.

其次是哪里？因为公司总部在伦敦。

And followed by what? Because the company's based in London.

其次是英国、欧洲，然后是德国。

Followed by the UK, Europe, followed by Germany actually.

德国。好的。我对印度非常着迷，因为最近有一个故事说你在那里看到了 140% 以上的同比增长。你在整体市场份额和知名度方面也在增长，这是新品牌通常做不到的。印度有什么特点让你们成功？

Germany. Okay. I'm so fascinated in India because there was a story recently where you're seeing like 140 plus percent year-over-year growth there. You're growing in terms of just general market share awareness too in a way that a new brand hasn't really done. What is it about India that has worked for you?

我们非常了解这个市场，就像之前的公司一加在印度就非常大。我认为现在我们看到那里的消费者正在发生变化。

We know the market really well, like even the previous company OnePlus was really big in India. And I think now what we're seeing there is consumers are changing.

嗯。经济在快速增长，中产阶级也在壮大。中产阶级消费者想要与过去不同的东西。当你没有太多钱时，你追求的是产品的功能利益；但当你有了更多可支配收入，你开始在意其他方面——产品的情感利益。我喜欢这个设计吗？我喜欢这个品牌吗？我喜欢软件用户体验吗？所以我们看到印度正在发生这种转变。我觉得我们作为一家公司，在这个全新的期望世界里，定位相当不错。而如果人们只关心效率——能否以最低价格获得最高配置——那对我们来说就非常困难，因为与苹果和三星这样的巨头相比，我们的规模小，不得不为零部件支付更高的成本。所以这种人口结构转变，或者说消费者转变，我们确实看到了很大的发展势头。

Mhm. Uh, the economy is growing very quickly, and the middle class is growing. Middle-class consumers want something different from the past. When you don't have a ton of money, you want the functional benefits of something, but if you start having more disposable income, you care about other things as well—the emotional benefits of a product. Do I like the design? Do I like the brand? Do I like the software user experience? So we're seeing India shift in this way. I feel like we as a company are pretty well positioned to succeed in this new world of expectations. Whereas if people just care about efficiency—can I get the most spec for the lowest price—it's really hard for us because at a small scale compared to the Apples and Samsungs of the world, we have to pay more for our components. So this demographic shift, or consumer shift, we're really seeing a lot of traction here.

但你们也在进军高端市场，对吧？比如 Nothing Phone 3 几个月前刚刚在美国发布，定价大约 800 美元，与基础款 iPhone 和三星不相上下。看起来你们现在确实在瞄准更高端的市场，这么说对吗？

But you're going for the high-end too, right? So like the Nothing Phone 3 launched pretty recently in the US a few months ago. And that's priced at like $800. It's just up there with the base iPhone and Samsung. It seems like now you're really trying to go after the more high-end market. Is that fair?

我们有一系列产品，手机从 200 美元起，根据配置最高可达 1000 美元左右。平均而言，我们的产品售价在 350 美元左右。所以尽管我们有高端机型，但销量主力还是在 350 美元左右。

We have a range of products starting from phones starting at $200 up to like $1,000 depending on the configuration. On average, we're selling our products at around $350 US. So whilst we have the high-end one, the volume driver is around $350.

那么，当你看到现在筹集的这些资金，展望未来，你有很多投资选择。你有硬件、软件，现在还有 AI。你打算如何分配这 2 亿美元？

And so when you look at all that money you've now raised and looking to the future, you have a lot of options for how to invest it. You have hardware, software, now AI. How are you thinking about allocating that $200 million you've raised?

我们需要非常谨慎地使用筹集的资金，因为首先，我们应该实现盈利。我们就像一艘在海上航行了很久的船，已经 5 年了，最好先靠岸，让整个公司感受一下盈利公司的感觉，然后我们才能决定加速前进、加大力度，再次启航。但我觉得先着陆，盘点一下情况是好的。所以我们肯定会非常谨慎地花钱。但这也能让我们投资未来。所以如果我们说现有的常规业务——智能手机和音频产品——我们要谨慎，要增长，但不要在这里浪费钱。我觉得我们有一点预算去尝试新事物。这就是我觉得我们在规模上处于最佳位置的地方。我们不小也不大。如果我们太小，就很难创造高质量的产品。即使你的概念很酷，也很难有足够的原始工程能力真正交付高质量的东西，也很难建立供应链关系等一切来大规模发货。所以我觉得我们确实拥有这些，但我们也没有大到难以掌舵。所以我觉得我们处于一个非常有趣的甜蜜点。而且考虑到现在 AI 的所有发展，硬件和软件方面都会有来自各地的众多实验——初创公司、七巨头，每个人都会开始尝试新事物。当我们 5 年前开始时，我们说科技很无聊。我们想让它重新变得有趣。我觉得这绝对是一个超级有趣的时刻。所以我们也很兴奋能参与其中，探索和寻找明天的全新形态。

We need to be very careful with the money we raised because, first of all, we should become profitable. We've been like a ship that's been in the ocean for a long time, for 5 years, and it will be good to just dock the ship so the entire company can feel how it feels to be a profitable company, and then we can decide to go faster and go harder and set sail again. But I think it's good to just arrive on land and take stock of the situation first. So we're definitely going to be very careful with how we spend our money. But this also enables us to invest into the future. So if we say that our regular business that we have now—the smartphones and the audio products—let's be prudent, let's grow, but let's not waste money here. I think we have a little bit of budget to try new things. And that's where I feel like we're in a sweet spot in terms of scale. We're not small and we're not huge. If we're too small, it's hard to create quality products. Even if your concept is cool, it's hard to have the raw engineering horsepower to actually deliver something of quality, and it's hard to have the supply chain relationships and all that stuff set up to ship it at scale. So I think we definitely have that, but we're also not too big that it's really hard to steer the ship. So I feel like we're in this really interesting sweet spot. And given all the developments in AI right now, there's going to be so many experiments both on the hardware side and the software side from all over the place—startups, Magnificent 7, everybody's going to start trying new things. And when we started 5 years ago, we said tech was boring. We wanted to make it fun again. I think it's definitely a super fun time. So we're very excited to put our hat into the ring as well and participate in exploring and finding the new form factors of tomorrow.

本期节目由 Notion 赞助。如今大多数工作都像杂务，需要搜索、更新和协调。有了 Notion AI，你就能拥有一个由你的工作驱动的 AI 团队，而且集中在一个地方。它了解你的工作背景、会议记录、任务、日历和计划。现在有了智能体，它真的能为你和你的团队完成工作。你能用 Notion 做的任何事，你的 Notion AI 智能体也能做。智能体可以构建页面、整理数据、跨工具搜索，并根据你的指示执行多步骤工作流。

Support for Access comes from Notion. Most work these days feels like busy work. It's hunting, updating, and coordinating. With Notion AI, you get your own AI team powered by your work and all in one place. It knows your work context, your meeting notes, tasks, calendars, and plans. And now with agents, it actually does the work for you and your team. Anything you can do with Notion, your Notion AI agent can do too. Agents can build pages, structure data, search across your tools, and execute multi-step workflows at your direction.

Ellis，你打算如何使用 Notion AI 智能体？说实话，我很期待用智能体把我所有的笔记变成漂亮、简单的采访问题，按劲爆程度排序。当然，我们得让它有料。归根结底，Notion 是理解团队工作方式的 AI，因为它就在你工作的同一个工作区里。Notion 加上智能体。更少的标签页，更少的交接，更好的工作。在 notion.com/vox 免费开始使用。

Ellis, how are you going to use a Notion AI agent? Honestly, I'm excited to use an agent to turn all my notes into nice, easy interview questions, ranked by juiciness. Of course, we got to have it juicy. At the end of the day, Notion is AI that understands the way a team works because it lives inside the same workspace you do. Notion plus agents. Fewer tabs, fewer handoffs, better work. Start for free at notion.com/vox.

本期节目由 Warp 赞助。Warp 正在改变开发者编写代码的方式。作为排名靠前的编码智能体，也是增长最快的 AI 公司之一，更不用说它受到超过 70 万开发者和 56% 的财富 500 强企业的信任，Warp 正在重新定义软件的构建方式。Warp 理解你的机器栈和代码库，并构建在终端层面，这意味着它可以编写代码、响应系统事件，甚至部署到生产环境。他们的混合模型方法优于单一模型方法。它专为整个软件生命周期而构建，从提示到生产。凭借终端的能力和 IDE 的交互性，Warp 为你提供与智能体的紧密反馈循环，让你可以提示、审查、编辑并交付生产就绪的代码。了解为什么开发者平均每周节省 5 小时，并看看 Warp 如何改变你的编码时间线。在 warp.dev/access 免费试用 Warp，或仅需 5 美元解锁 Pro。网址是 warp.dev/access。

Support for Access comes from Warp. Warp is changing how developers code. As a top-ranked coding agent and one of the fastest growing AI companies, not to mention trusted by over 700,000 developers and 56% of the Fortune 500, Warp is redefining how software gets built. Warp understands your machine stack and codebase and is built at the terminal level, meaning it can write code, respond to system events, and even deploy to prod. And their mixed model approach outperforms single model approaches. It's built for the entire software life cycle from prompt to production. With the powers of a terminal and the interactivity of an IDE, Warp gives you a tight feedback loop with agents so you can prompt, review, edit, and ship production-ready code. Find out why developers save an average of 5 hours a week and see how Warp transforms your coding timelines. Try Warp free or unlock Pro for just $5 at warp.dev/access. That's warp.dev/access.

我知道你们下一步的重要举措是所谓的 Essential OS。我看到你们的目标是 2028 年，这有点遥远。感觉很多硬件公司至少没有真正描绘出手机未来会是什么样子，部分原因我觉得他们在某种程度上害怕自我蚕食，因为很多处理能力等会从设备上转移到别处。你认为这些设备几年后会是什么样子？

I know a big next step is what you're calling the Essential OS. I saw that you're targeting 2028, which is a little off into the future. It feels like a lot of the hardware companies at least haven't really painted a picture of what phones are going to look like, in part because I think they're afraid to self-cannibalize in some ways as a lot of the processing power and whatnot moves off your device to some extent. How are you thinking that those devices are going to look in a few years down the road?

是的，我认为其他人没有想那么多，是因为——我是说，我以前在这些组织内部待过。他们更像是一家快消品公司，消费品公司。比如，我们有什么功能？其他竞争对手有什么功能？我们怎么能比他们卖得更多？我们如何每年增长销售额？这就是我想要独立创业的原因，因为如果我们只是那样做，结果不会很好——那只是随大流。我想有机会真正打造一些独特的东西。我们选择智能手机的原因也是因为智能手机是当今我们拥有的最重要的数字设备。

Yeah, I think the reason why others haven't thought as much about it is because—I mean, I've been inside some of those organizations before. They're more like a CPG company, consumer packaged goods company. Like, what are the features we have? What are the features the other competitors have? And how can we sell more than them? And how do we grow our sales every year? And that was the reason I wanted to have something independent on my own, because it would not be a great outcome if we just did that—like it would just be following the industry. I wanted to have a chance of really building something unique. The reason why we picked smartphones was also that the smartphone is the most important digital device we have today.

嗯，它卖得最好。年销量 12 亿台，我们每天都要用上好几个小时。所以我们想，如果能进入这个行业，生存下来并扩大规模，那我们就有了一个很好的基础，可以在上面部署软件和服务。所以并不是要成为一家智能手机公司，那从来不是目标，但智能手机是我们拥有的一个工具，用来在未来创造更酷的东西。

Um, it sells the most. It's got 1.2 billion sales a year, and we use it for many hours every single day. So we thought that if we're able to enter this industry, survive, and grow in volume, then we have a great foundation to deploy software and services on top of. So it wasn't like to make a smartphone company. That was never the goal, but the smartphone was a tool that we could possess to create cooler stuff in the future.

我觉得硬件不会发生重大变化。我们正处于硬件改进微乎其微的时代。所以每年我们都会看到，你知道，更好的电池、稍微好一点的摄像头，而不是手持投影仪，你是这个意思吧？

I don't think the hardware is going to change significantly. I think we're at an era where the hardware improvements are marginal. So every year we'll see, you know, better battery, slightly better cameras, not a hand projector, is what you're saying.

不，大概不会。但软件确实是一个没有太多创新的领域，说实话。就像在 Palm PDA 时代，用户体验和现在也差不多。你有全屏应用、应用商店、主屏幕和锁屏。手写笔甚至都回归了。

No, probably not. But the software is really a place where there hasn't been a lot of innovation, if I'm being honest. Like even in the Palm PDA days, it's still a similar UX to now. You have full-screen apps, you have app stores, you have home screens and lock screens. Styluses are even back.

手写笔回归了。我认为未来肯定是生成式 UI。因为理论上手机掌握了很多关于你的上下文。为什么我们都是独立的个体，却得到相同的体验？我们有不同的需求和优先级。除了生成式 UI，它还会变得更加主动和智能体式。意思是，你知道，一旦我们有意图，一旦我们知道想做什么，差距应该比现在小得多。就像今天，哪怕和朋友喝杯咖啡，也要用五个不同的应用，对吧？比如日程安排、发短信、Uber、地图等等。

Styluses are back. I think the future is definitely generative UI. Because theoretically the phone has a lot of context over you. And why are we all getting the same experience when we're all individual people? We have different needs and different priorities. And beyond generative UIs, it's also going to be a lot more proactive and agentic. Meaning that, you know, once we have an intention, once we know what we want to do, the gap should be a lot smaller than currently. Like today, even grabbing coffee with a friend, that's like five different apps, right? Like scheduling, texting, Uber, Maps, etc.

那么，当你把这五个步骤变成一个人工智能界面时，我想有些人可能会说，你也在某种程度上抽象掉了那些服务，无论是星巴克应用界面、Yelp 应用界面，还是支付应用界面。你觉得那些公司会作何感想，当他们可能被你们、苹果或现在的 OpenAI 邀请加入时？比如说：“嘿，我们只会为你展示部分界面。也许在这些应用里发现其他东西的机会就少了。”你觉得那些公司会如何应对？

Well, so when you turn those five steps into just one user interface with AI, I think some may say you're also kind of abstracting away those services, whether it is the Starbucks app UI, the Yelp app UI, the payment app UI. How do you feel like those companies are going to feel as they kind of get asked by potentially you guys or Apple or now OpenAI as they try to bring them in? Say, "Hey, we're just going to show parts of the UI for you. Maybe there's less opportunity to discover other things in those apps." How do you think those companies are going to navigate that?

嗯，这将是一条复杂的路。

Um, it's going to be a complicated path to navigate.

他们不想成为哑管道，对吧？

They don't want to be dumb pipes, right?

是的，百分之百。所以一方面，有应用生态系统，但另一方面，也有我们需要带上的消费者。但也许我先说生态系统。我认为我们在这里也很有优势，因为如果你是一家大公司，他们可能会觉得被大公司欺负了，大公司只想碾压他们，他们会说：“嘿，这是我们的 API。你们需要这样连接，然后去做。”而对我们来说，我们可以说：“嘿，你知道，我们不知道未来会怎样。我们认为可能会是这样，我们也不知道如何与每个人合作。我们知道品牌对你很重要。你们投入了很多钱来建立品牌资产。所以，让我们一起合作吧。至少，这对双方都是学习。你们会学会如何更好地在新世界中导航，我们也能学会如何更好地打造产品。”

Yeah, 100%. So, on one hand, there's the ecosystem of apps, but there's also the consumer that we need to bring along on this journey. But maybe I take the ecosystem first. I think we're also pretty well positioned here because if you're a huge company, they might feel bullied by the huge company who just wants to steamroll them and they're like, "Hey, this is our API. This is how you need to connect and go do it." Whereas for us, we can say, "Hey, you know, we don't know what the future's going to be. We think that it might be like this and we don't know exactly how to work with everybody. We know your brand matters to you. You've invested a lot of money into building your brand equity. So, let's co-work on something together. At the very least, it's learning for both sides. You'll learn how you can navigate the new world better and we can learn how we build the products better."

这是个非常外交的回答，Carl。看起来根据目前的发展趋势，你在这方面的最大竞争对手可能是谷歌。因为他们已经开始做这些事情了，比如新款 Pixel 有一些非常轻量的智能体功能。它会在合适的时候从邮件中提取信息并显示在文本中，这很不错。苹果显然在这方面落后很多。也许他们会赶上，也许不会。但我很好奇你如何看待与谷歌的竞争，尤其是因为你的手机基于 Android。我的意思是 Android 是开源的，但和谷歌竞争是什么感觉？你如何看待他们，尤其是在你试图构建这个 AI 操作系统的时候？

That's a very diplomatic answer, Carl. It does seem like currently based on where things are going, your biggest competition on this will probably be Google. Just because they're already starting to do some of this like the new Pixel has some very lightweight agentic stuff. It will start surfacing things from email when it makes sense in text, which is nice. Apple is obviously way behind the eight-ball on this. Maybe they'll catch up, maybe they won't. But yeah, I'm curious how you think about competing with Google, especially because your phone is based on Android. I mean Android is open source but yeah, what is it like competing with Google and how do you think about them especially on the AI side as you're trying to also build this AI OS?

有时候小也有小的优势。我们可以更快地行动，更快地做决定，可能承担更多风险。我认为品味很重要，因为当你向人们介绍一种全新的做事方式或产品时，它越美观、越易用，产品市场契合的可能性就越高。我认为我们应该保持谦逊。我们应该，你知道，快速发布。与其花 5 年或 3 年做一个项目，不如花 9 到 12 个月来测试一个新的形态。与其花数亿美元，不如花 1000 万、2000 万来测试一些东西，真正贴近消费者，比如接受反馈并快速迭代。我不认为我们能一炮而红。我觉得史蒂夫·乔布斯在职业生涯中做到过几次。他重新构想了行业，第一个产品几乎总是成功。我不认为我们能那样。但如果做不到，B 计划就是快速迭代，接受反馈，不要花太多钱，然后行动，快速发布。

Sometimes being small also has its advantages. We can move faster, we can make decisions faster, potentially take more risk. I think taste is going to matter because when you're introducing people to a brand new way of doing things or using a product, the more beautiful it is and the easier it is to use, the higher the chance for product-market fit. And I think we should be humble. We should, you know, ship quickly. Instead of spending 5 years or 3 years on a project, we should spend 9 months to 12 months to test a new form factor. Instead of spending hundreds of millions of dollars, we should spend like 10 million, 20 million to test something out and really be close to the consumer, like take the feedback and iterate quickly. I don't think we're going to be able to do a one-hit wonder. Like I think Steve Jobs did that a couple of times in his career. He reimagined industries and the first product almost always hit. I don't think we can do that. But if we can't do that, the plan B is to iterate quickly, take feedback, don't spend too much money, and move and just ship quickly.

看起来你的 AI 方法的一个原则是看待记忆，比如你的个人空间、个人搜索，无论是通过 Essential Space 还是 Essential OS 的一些原则。你是怎么考虑的？你觉得这对很多人来说是一种独特的、容易接触 AI 的方式吗？

Seems like one of the tenets for your AI approach is kind of looking at memory like your personal space, personal search, whether that's with the Essential Space or some of the tenets of the Essential OS. How are you thinking about that? Do you feel like that's a uniquely accessible way to get into AI for a lot of people?

我认为这实际上是我们想做的核心。如果消费者了解到，我喂给我的 AI 或操作系统或助手或随便你怎么称呼它的上下文越多，我从中获得的效用就越多，那将成为催生一系列新形态的触发点，因为有时候你把手机放在口袋里，也许你在走路，也许你在吃晚餐，手机并不总是在你身边。一旦人们意识到他们能提供的上下文越多，输出就越好，我认为新的品类就会开始增长。我花了一些时间思考 10 年后世界会怎样，哪些品类会流行。我仍然认为手机会流行，它仍将是一个年销量超过 10 亿台的行业，仅仅因为地球上还有数亿人没有智能手机。所以即使我们在西方世界换手机的频率降低，它对我们来说仍然是一个重要的设备。但还有所有这些其他人会上网并使用智能手机。而且我确实相信，用于上下文捕获的新形态将在未来 10 年内成为超过 10 亿的品类。

I think that's actually the core of what we want to do. If consumers get to learn that the more context I feed into my AI or OS or assistant or whatever you call it, the more utility I get out of that, that's going to be the trigger to give rise to a new array of form factors because sometimes you have your phone in your pocket, maybe you're walking or maybe you're at a dinner, like the phone is not always there for you. And as soon as people realize that the more context they can feed in, the better output, I think then new categories will start growing. And I spent some time to think about like 10 years from now how the world will be and what categories will be popular. I still think phones will be popular, like it will still be a billion-unit-plus industry, simply because there's still hundreds of millions of people on earth who don't have smartphones. So even if we in the Western world upgrade our phones less frequently, it's still going to be an important device for us. But then you have all these other people who are going to come online and use smartphones. And I really also believe that the new form factors for context capture will be billion-plus categories in the next 10 years.

这就像 OpenAI 和 Johnny 正在开发的那个 Puck 设备，诸如此类的东西。

This is like the puck that OpenAI is developing with Johnny, stuff like that.

诸如此类的东西。

Stuff like that.

就像没人知道完美的形态是什么。我们都在寻找产品市场契合点（PMF），但走着瞧吧。我的意思是，也许就是类似那样的东西。

Like nobody knows what the perfect form factor is. We're all looking for PMF at this point, but let's see. I mean something like that maybe.

对于那些不知道 PMF 的人，就是产品市场契合点。我以为新耳机上的对话按钮会是那样。我当时想：“哦，我觉得那就像无论你在哪里，无论你在做什么，那都会是 AI 按钮。”

For those who don't know PMF, product market fit. That's what I thought the talk button was going to be on the new headphones. I was like, "Oh, I feel like that's kind of like no matter where you are, no matter what you're doing, that's going to be the AI button."

嗯，我们用对话按钮迈出了一小步。所以，如果你有 Nothing Phone Ear 3，你可以用对话按钮把你的想法记录到 Essential Space 里。

Um, we made a tiny step with a talk button. So, if you have a nothing phone in the ear 3, you can use the talk button to record your ideas into Essential Space.

是的。几个月前我们在洛杉矶的时候，你跟我聊过你通过耳机实现的 ChatGPT 集成，它们基本上是唯一能直接和 ChatGPT 对话的耳机，不需要像在 iOS 或 Act 上那样多次提示。是的，在 iOS 上有点卡顿。嗯，但你怎么看 ChatGPT 呢？因为他们现在拥有所有 AI 产品中最强的记忆能力。我觉得他们真的把这看作他们的关键竞争优势。他们正在进军设备领域。嗯，你知道，你现在在手机和耳机上支持 ChatGPT，但未来几年你怎么看？你觉得你们的利益会和竞争对手冲突，还是你觉得你们可以成为这些 LLM 公司的平台，一个硬件平台，他们想要更多分发和更多上下文，而你们的设备就是他们获得这些的方式？

Yeah. When we were in LA together a few months ago, you were talking to me about the chat GPT integration you managed to pull off through the headphones where they're essentially the only headphones that you can talk to chat GPT without doing, you know, multiple prompts like you have to do on iOS or the act. Yeah, it's just it's a little jankier on iOS. Um, how are you thinking about chatbt though? Because they have the most memory of any AI product right now. I think they're they really see that as like a key competitive edge for them. they're going into devices. Um, you know, you support chatbt and the phone and the headphones right now, but how do you think about that over the next few years? Do you feel like your all's interests kind of collide and your competitors or do you feel like you can be a platform, a hardware platform for these LLM companies who want more distribution and want more context and your devices would be the way they would get that?

我认为长期来看，这是个非常好的问题。我认为长期来看，如果我们只是成为一家硬件公司，那会很糟糕，因为如果你看看我们的产品，以及产品中的不同组件，还有我们价值链中的不同类型的公司，硬件 OEM 的利润率是最低的。芯片制造商利润率更高，操作系统提供商利润率更高，等等。所以，如果我们经历这个即将到来的新周期，最终仍然是一家硬件制造商，那不会是一个好结果。嗯，这是一个好的起点，也是我们唯一能开始的起点，但我们不应该止步于此。但这是长期来看。短期内，有很多实际的事情需要处理。所以，如果有什么机会与这些大公司进行有意义的合作，同时也能为我们的消费者提供价值，并且不妨碍我们实现长期目标，我们肯定持开放态度。事实上，我们现在正在考虑几个这样的对话。但嗯，比如说十年后，如果只是成为一家硬件公司，那会很糟糕。

I think long this is this is a very good question. And I think longterm it will be really bad if we uh just become a hardware company because if you look at the like if you look at our products and the different components we have in the product um and the different types of companies in our value chain a hardware OEM has the lowest margin out of everybody. So the chipset maker has higher margins the the OS provider has higher margins etc etc. So it'll be it will not be a great outcome if we go through this new cycle that's coming and we end up still being a hardware manufacturer. Um it's a good place to start and the only place we could have started but we we shouldn't end there. But that's the long term. In the short term there's a lot of practical uh things we need to navigate. So if you know there's opportunities to partner in a meaningful way with any of these larger companies that can also at the same time provide value to our consumers whilst not blocking us from achieving our long-term ambitions. We definitely be open for that. In fact, we're entertaining a couple of these conversations right now. But um it would just be bad to become a hardware company say in 10 years from now.

那这意味着什么呢？这意味着你需要自己的基础 AI 模型吗？这对你的 AI 战略意味着什么？

So what does that mean though? Does that mean you need your own foundational AI models? Like how how what does that mean for your AI strategy?

嗯，我的看法是，模型领域有大量投资，不同实验室之间竞争激烈。所以一个月某个模型会非常强大，另一个月另一个模型会非常强大。所以以我们的资源，我们无法竞争。而且我认为在全球范围内，如果我们看看所有这些模型公司，我觉得他们会进入价格竞争或价格战，这会进一步侵蚀他们的利润率。嗯，我认为长期来看，可能只有两三家会蓬勃发展，其余的会非常艰难。嗯，所以这不是我们投资的好地方。而且如果我们研究模型公司，他们都在转向深度企业服务或面向消费者的应用。所以我想这也表明他们没有看到模型能力的大幅提升，比如阶跃式改进。他们需要以新的方式应用技术来帮助消费者和用户。嗯，所以我认为我们应该专注于应用，专注于面向消费者的应用，我们需要真正擅长的是帮助人们捕获上下文，然后基于上下文采取行动。我认为这也是我们可以建立护城河的地方。

Um the way I see it is that the models are there's so much investment in the models and there's so much competition between different labs. So one month one model will be really powerful and another month another model will be really powerful. So with um with our resources, we won't be able to compete. And I think globally, if we look at all these model companies, I feel like they're going to enter a price competition or a price war, which will erode their margins further. Um I think long-term maybe two or three companies are going to thrive and the rest will have a very hard time. Um so this is not a good place for us to invest. And also if we study the model companies, they're all kind of pivoting to to do either deep enterprise or to to do applied on consumers. So I guess it's also a signal that they're not seeing a ton of uh um improvements like step change improvements in the in the model capability. Uh they need to apply the technology in in new ways to to help consumers and users. Um so I think for us we should focus on applied and we should focus on applied towards consumers and the thing that we need to be really great at is to to help people capture context and then action on the context. I think that's where we can also build our moes.

我感觉到深度企业服务并不是你真正的热情所在。

I sense that deep enterprise isn't really your passion.

那是一门好生意，但嗯，不，我是消费者导向的人。我进入这个领域的全部原因就是因为我作为消费者热爱这些产品。

It's a good business but uh no I'm a consumer person. I mean the entire reason why I entered this space is because I love these products as a consumer.

是的。所以你确实有独特的品味和审美。嗯，当你寻求更广泛的受众时，你发现这种审美是更广泛地引起共鸣，还是可能让一些人反感？我的意思是，我一直戴着你的耳机，我很喜欢它们，但你知道，我不知道。人们会说：“哦，也许我还是用我的 AirPods 吧，融入人群。”我知道也有很多关于这个的广告。你如何平衡这一点？比如，努力发展一种引人注目的审美。我的意思是，甚至你做的时尚和摄影的东西都感觉有点高级时尚，传统上这有点排他性，对吧？

Yeah. So you definitely have a distinct taste and aesthetic. Um as you seek to go broader, do you find that the aesthetic is is resonating more broadly or or could it actually be turning some people off? I mean, I wear your headphones around all the time and I love them, but you know, I don't know. people are like, "Oh, maybe I'll just stick with my AirPods and and blend in with the crowd." I know there have been a lot of ads about that as well. H how do you balance that? Like trying to, you know, really develop a striking aesthetic. I mean, even the fashion stuff you're doing and the photography stuff you're doing feels kind of high fashion, which traditionally has been kind of exclusive, right?

是的，这也是个很好的问题。我认为这又回到了我说的节奏问题，你知道，当我们刚开始时，我们必须非常有自己的主张，因为即使 90% 的人讨厌我们，10% 的人喜欢我们，这对一个试图在行业中站稳脚跟的初创公司来说完全没问题。

Yeah, it's also a great question. And I think it goes back to the pacing thing I said like, you know, when we're just starting out, we have to be super opinionated because even if 90% of the people hate us and 10% love us, that's perfectly fine for a startup that's trying to get a foothold in the industry.

这是你那边的数据吗？90% 讨厌，10% 喜欢。

Is that the stat on your end? 90% hate, 10% love.

不，那只是一个理论。嗯，如果你退一步，从第一性原理来思考我们当前的设计美学，世界上至少会有 3% 的人会喜欢它。而我们还没有达到 3% 的市场份额。事实上，我们离 3% 的市场份额还很远。嗯，但我不确定你是否注意到，在 2025 年，我们一直在稍微演变我们的设计语言。我们增加了更多的金属点缀，嗯，稍微降低了透明度的调性。所以，它仍然非常具有 Nothing 的特色，但我们的设计语言正在演变。嗯，这有点像我们的实验。我们知道我们需要持续增长，需要随着时间的推移迎合更多人，但我们也需要保持我们的与众不同，不失去我们的早期采用者。

No, it's just a just just a just a theory. Um, and if you take a step back and just try and think from first principles with our current design aesthetic, there must at least be 3% of the world at the very least that would find it like would love it. And we're not 3% market share yet. In fact, we're quite far from 3% market share. Um, but I don't know if you noticed in in 2025, we have been evolving our design language a little bit. We've added more metallic accents, uh, slightly tone down the transparency. So, it's still very distinctively nothing, but we're seeing an evolution in our in our design language. And, um, that's kind of our experiment. like we know we need to keep growing and we need to cater to more people over time, but we also need to do it in a way where we keep what's different about us and not lose track of our uh early adopters.

我之前真的没这么想过。这很有道理。是的，新耳机有点更银色，也许更亲和一些。我的意思是，这很难，不是吗？作为一个硬核数码爱好者，你会想，我想做出像 80 年代那些黄色索尼随身听耳机那样的东西。

I hadn't really thought about it that way. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah, the new headphones are kind of more silver, maybe a bit more accessible. I mean, it's uh it's tough, isn't it? as a as a hardcore gadget nerd, you're like, I want to make something that looked like those yellow Sony Walkman headphones from the 80s.

我的意思是，当我看到这些时，我觉得它们应该被收藏在 MoMA（现代艺术博物馆）里，但这也并不一定意味着它们能为你带来数百万用户。

I mean, that's what I see when I see these and I'm like, these belong in the MoMA, you know, essentially, but it doesn't necessarily mean that it's going to get you to millions and millions of users.

但我们的 2026 年路线图看起来仍然非常酷、非常令人兴奋。所以在这方面，并不艰难。我对我们未来的产品感到非常兴奋。请尽可能多谈谈这个，因为我说过，甚至《金融时报》也报道了最近的融资。他们说你正在谈论机器人技术，甚至整合到电动汽车中。我猜你在考虑眼镜，我猜你在考虑各种可穿戴设备。Nothing 品牌下一步会走向哪里？除了手机和耳机，还有手表。你是如何看待所有这些不同品类的？

But our 2026 road map, it still looks very cool and very exciting. So, on that side, it's not tough. I'm very excited about our future products. Talk about this a little bit as much as you can because I was saying like even there's a Financial Times story about the recent fundraising. They were like you're talking about robotics and even integrating into electric vehicles. I assume you're looking at glasses. I assume you're looking at all kinds of wearables. Like where does the Nothing brand go next? Beyond phones and headphones, a watch. Like how are you thinking about all these different categories?

是的，我只是在试着弄清楚现在能说什么。

Yeah, I'm just trying to figure out what I can say right now.

那就给我们看看路线图吧。

Just show us the road map.

如果我们把上下文或记忆看作是人机生态系统的核心，那么智能手机将是其中重要的一部分，但只是一部分。眼镜是一个有趣的品类。我以前对眼镜非常悲观，因为我甚至经历了做 LASIK（激光视力矫正手术）的痛苦，就是为了不戴眼镜。我认为门槛很高。我过去认为让人们使用智能眼镜的门槛很高，因为它感觉不舒服，而且你真的需要提供很多实用功能才能让人愿意使用。但 Meta Ray-Bans（Meta 与雷朋合作的智能眼镜）的增长确实让我很惊讶。比如今年，我认为销量是去年的五倍。所以这是我们正在考虑的事情。我们还没有就眼镜做出决定，但我正在逐渐接受这个想法。

If we think about the context or the memory being in the middle of a person's ecosystem, then the smartphone is going to be an important part of it, but only one part of it. Glasses is an interesting category. I was really bearish on glasses before because I even went through the pain to do LASIK to not need to wear glasses. I think the bar is very high. I used to think the bar is very high to get somebody to use smart glasses because it doesn't feel comfortable and you really need to provide a lot of utility for somebody to want to use it. But I've been quite surprised actually by the growth of the Meta Ray-Bans. Like this year I think they're five times more sales than last year. And so it's something we're thinking about. We haven't made a decision around glasses but it's warm—I'm warming up to the idea.

卡尔，你与 Nothing 社区和客户的互动方式非常吸引人。你是个 YouTuber，一个非常成功的 YouTuber，我认为很多智能手机公司都做不到这一点。我喜欢的一点是，你实际上会评测竞争对手的产品，这非常不寻常。作为这样一家公司的 CEO，你是如何看待与世界互动并做这些事的？比如谈论竞争对手，这是你很少看到消费电子公司会做的事情。那么，这对你来说是自然而然的事情，还是一种策略？

And it's fascinating, Carl, how you engage with the Nothing community and customers and like you're a YouTuber. You're a very successful YouTuber, which I don't think many smartphone companies can say. And something I love is you actually review competing products, which is super unusual. How do you think about just engaging the world as a CEO of a company like this and doing that? Like talking about competition, for example, is something you just don't see consumer electronics companies do very often. So was that something that was just natural to you or is it a strategy?

这背后有一个底层逻辑。我想我的团队讨厌这一点，但我总是说，我们必须让我们投入的资金产生 10 倍的回报，因为与竞争对手相比，我们的资金太少了。我听说三星仅在美国就有每年 10 亿美元的营销预算。我们远远达不到那个水平。所以我们花的每一美元都必须产生更多的效果。所以我们必须——作为这个行业里一家较小的公司，我们有很多弱点。比如我们必须为零部件支付更高的价格。我们无法拥有我们想要的那么多工程师来打造所有酷炫的东西。所以我们真的必须寻找所有潜在的领域，把这些劣势转化为优势。我认为内容创作就是其中之一，因为如果你是一家上市大公司，没人会这么做。说错话太容易了，他们不可能这么做。所以这就是我们应该加倍投入的原因。大约两年前，我们开始尝试内容创作。我认为去年我们的内容获得了约 6 亿次自然观看，主要是短视频。今年我们可能也会翻倍。明年，我正在想办法如何达到 50 亿次，比如 5 倍或 4 倍。但我认为这对我们来说将是一个真正独特的机会，尤其是当我们瞄准 Z 世代和 Alpha 世代时，他们把所有时间都花在这些社交媒体平台上。

There's an underlying logic to it. I think my team hates it, but I always say we got to get 10 times more out of the money we invest because we have so little money compared to our competitors. I heard Samsung has a billion dollars a year in marketing budget for just the US alone. Like we're nowhere close to that. So every dollar we spend has to do a lot more. So we have to—and we have a lot of weaknesses as a smaller company in this industry. Like we have to pay more for our components. We can't have as many engineers as we would like to build all the cool stuff. So we really have to look at all the potential areas where we can turn these disadvantages into advantages. And I think content creation is one of them because nobody would do it if you're a publicly listed big company. Like it's so easy to say the wrong thing and it's impossible for them to do. So that's why we should double down here. And we started experimenting with content creation about two years ago. I think last year we did about 600 million organic views on our content, mainly short form. And this year we're probably doubling that as well. And next year I'm trying to think of how we get to like 5 billion, like 5x or 4x. But I think this is going to be a really unique opportunity for us, especially as we're targeting the Gen Z and Gen Alpha, like they spend all their time on these social media platforms.

你是否为那些希望增加在线观看量的播客提供长期服务？不，这太令人印象深刻了。我的意思是，你是为此专门招聘团队，还是他们就是那些二十出头、超级懂网络的人？你是怎么做到的？你怎么能为一个品牌自然创造数十亿的观看量？

Do you work on retainer for podcasts who are looking to grow their online views? No, that's super impressive. I mean, is the team that you're hiring for that or are they just like these cracked early 20s like super online people? Like how do you do that? How do you just organically create billions of views for a brand?

有两个想法真的很有帮助。一开始，我们制作了那种高端、有品牌感、神秘类型的内容。然后有一天，一个朋友把我拉到一边说：“嘿，你做的事情有点尴尬。你就像一个品牌，想卖东西给我，和其他品牌一样，但我只想被娱乐。所以不要做一个品牌，做一个创作者。”这对我们来说是一个巨大的心态转变。第二件事，对于短视频，就是大量创作内容。到目前为止，我们基本上已经翻遍了所有档案，把所有长视频内容剪辑成短视频，这只是一个数字游戏。有时算法喜欢它，它就会获得大量观看。但我认为展望未来，我们还可以做更多。比如我们甚至没有专门的短视频内容，一切都是重复利用的。专门制作的内容可以帮我们很多。我们在全球都有用户。在一些国家，他们的英语不太好，或者文化差异很大。所以在日本，我们刚刚聘请了一位 YouTuber，希望他很快能加入我们的团队，开始用日语创作 YouTube 原生内容。所以我们正在尝试所有这些想法，真正在内容上加倍投入。

Two ideas have been really helpful. In the beginning, we created these high-end, branded, mysterious type of content. And then one day a friend pulled me aside and said, "Hey, what you're doing is kind of cringe. Like you're just a brand trying to sell me things just like every other brand, but I just want to be entertained. So don't be a brand. Be a creator." So that was a big mindset shift for us. And the second thing for short form was just create a lot of content. So far, we've basically gone through all our archives, all our long-form content, we've clipped into short form, and it's just a numbers game. Sometimes the algorithm likes it and it gets a lot of views. But I think looking into the future, there's just a lot more we can do. Like we don't even have dedicated short-form content. Everything is reused. Just dedicated content can help us a lot. We have users all over the world. In some countries, they don't speak very good English or their culture is very different. So in Japan, we just hired a YouTuber who will hopefully join our team very soon and start creating YouTube-native content in Japanese. So we're trying all these ideas to really double down on our content.

好吧，至少我们知道，如果整个手机业务不成功，你还有可能成为 YouTuber。

Well, at least we know that if the whole phone thing doesn't work out, you have a potential career as a YouTuber.

那是我的后备计划。

That's my backup plan.

我觉得你通过更加透明而建立的信任可能会派上用场。过去 10 到 20 年，关于消费者隐私和数据的讨论很多，现在 AI 公司有点想要所有这些数据，只是说：“嘿，总有一天会派上用场的。”你如何看待这种说法，以及它到底有多可行？比如什么时候才是合适的时机？

I feel like the trust you're building just by being more transparent is probably going to come in handy. There's been all this conversation over the last 10, 20 years about consumer privacy and data and now AI companies are kind of asking for it all and just saying, "Hey, it's going to come in handy at some point." How do you think about that proposition and how accessible it really is? Like when's the right time?

安全需要被提升到公司最高的战略层面，或者说信任，它必须成为公司的主要战略之一，因为如果我们要构建这种记忆，我们需要人们愿意与我们分享他们的记忆、他们的上下文。但如果他们不信任我们，他们就不会这么做。我觉得我们还有很多工作要做。我们目前正在加强内部的安全团队和流程。但我也认为，作为一家较小的公司，我们在这里有独特的机会。我认为我们可以做更透明、更接地气的事情，并以此帮助我们赢得信任。

Security needs to be raised to the highest strategic level at the company, or trust, like it has to be one of the main strategies for the company, because if we're going to build this memory, we need people to want to share their memories with us, their context with us. But if they don't trust us, they're not going to do it. And I feel like we have a lot of work to do. We're currently beefing up our security team and our processes internally. But I also think we have a unique opportunity here as a smaller company. I think we can do things that are more transparent, more down to earth, and through that also help us earn the trust.

这也是一个产品问题，比如当我们定义产品时，如何以透明的方式向用户展示内容？如何给他们更细粒度的控制，来决定我们拥有什么、不应该拥有什么？最近，在 Essential Space 中，我们添加了一个功能，你可以查看存储的所有记忆，并逐一删除，或者直接全部禁用。但我们在产品端还需要做更多类似的事情。

It's a product question as well, like when we define the products, how do we surface things to users in a transparent way? How do we give them more granular controls over what we have and what we shouldn't have? Recently, in Essential Space, we added a feature where you can look at all the memories you've stored and delete them one by one, or you can just disable all of it. But we need to do more things like that on the product side as well.

我知道另一个争议领域是，在 AI 的世界里，照片或视频到底是什么。长期以来有一种观点认为摄像头能卖手机，但现在看来，这些摄像头的输出越来越由 AI 生成。我知道 Apple 把每片天空都变成蓝色，Samsung 在月亮之上生成一个月亮图像。你如何看待计算摄影的未来，以及手机拍出的照片未来到底是什么？

I know another area of controversy is what a photo or a video even is in the world of AI. There's this long-standing idea that the cameras sell the phones, but now it seems like the outputs of those cameras are increasingly AI-generated. I know Apple makes every sky blue. Samsung is creating an image of the moon on top of the moon. How do you think about that moving forward with computational photography and what a photo from a phone even is going forward?

我不认为计算摄影是我们必须引领行业的领域，但我们需要跟上消费者的期望。我们现在在相机方面真正专注的是预设。在我们的 Playground 中，你可以上传自己制作的预设，也可以下载别人的预设。我们与摄影师以及较小的创作者合作，让相机体验更有趣。我认为这才是我们应该集中精力的地方，因为如果我们的目标是下一代消费者，他们可能想要这些酷炫的东西来玩，并与朋友分享。

Computational photography, I don't think, is an area where we need to necessarily lead the industry, but we need to keep up with consumer expectations. What we're doing on the camera side now that we're really focused on is presets. In our playground, you can upload the presets you made and download other people's presets. We work with photographers, but also smaller creators, to really make the camera experience more fun. I think that's where we should really focus our energy, because if we're targeting the next generation of consumers, they might want these cool things to play with and share with friends.

我想我们只剩一点时间了。我有一个迫切的问题：Nothing 这个名字从何而来？我觉得我和很多初创公司合作，他们讨论给自己或产品命名，我对创始人说：“你准备好今年说一千次公司名字，未来五年说一百万次吗？”然后你说：“哦，是的，我们在做 Nothing。”有些人一开始可能会想：“嗯，我不太确定。”但现在我觉得我真的喜欢上这个名字了。这是怎么发生的？

I think we only have a little bit more time. I have a burning question. Where did the name Nothing come from? I feel like I work with a lot of startups who are talking about naming themselves or a product, and I say to the founders, 'Are you prepared to say the name of your company a thousand times this year and a million times over the next five years?' And you say, 'Oh, yeah, we're building Nothing.' Some of them might initially be like, 'Hmm, I'm not so sure about that.' But now I feel like I've really grown to love it. How did that come about?

名字很重要，因为你要永远与之共存。但从某种意义上说，它们也没那么重要，因为如果你的公司不成功，任何名字都是坏名字；如果你的公司成功，任何名字都会被人喜欢，变成好名字。想想 Apple，那是个很奇怪的公司名，就是水果。想象一下叫一家公司 Banana。所以我认为，如果我们打算建立一家成功的公司，名字并不那么重要。但一开始真的很难找到名字。我们甚至最初收购了 Essential 这个名字，因为我们想把公司命名为 Essential，因为这个词很美，有很多好的含义。但后来我们想：“嘿，我们也许不应该那样做，我们应该建立自己的传承。”而且想出名字真的很难。所以 Nothing 有点出于挫败感，因为我们想不出更好的名字。就叫 Nothing 吧。当我说 Nothing 时，我们都有点喜欢。然后就这样了。律师们讨厌它。

Names are important because you have to live with them for perpetuity. But they're also not that important in the sense that if your company is unsuccessful, any name is a bad name. And if your company is successful, any name grows on people and becomes a good name. Think about Apple. That's such a strange company name. It's just fruit. Imagine calling a company Banana. So I think it doesn't really matter that much if we're going to build a successful company. But it was really hard to find a name in the beginning. We even acquired the name Essential in the beginning because we wanted to name the company Essential, because the word was such a beautiful word and had a lot of great meaning. But then we thought, 'Hey, we should probably not do that. We should probably have our own legacy that we build.' And it was really hard to come up with a name. So Nothing kind of came out of frustration because we couldn't come up with anything better. Let's just call it Nothing. And when I said Nothing, we all kind of liked it. And here we are. And the lawyers hated it.

每次我想到一个有趣的名字，律师们总是说：“不，你不能注册这个名字。”

Every time I have an interesting name, the lawyers are always like, 'No, you can't register this name.'

但我们还是通过了。最近，我们在印度有一个合资企业，正在建工厂。我说：“我们叫它 The Factory 吧。”律师们又说：“嘿，你不能就叫它 The Factory。”但我听说这方面有好消息。所以也许它会叫 The Factory。

But we got it through. Recently, we have a joint venture in India where we're building a factory. And I said, 'Let's call it The Factory.' And the lawyers again were like, 'Hey, you can't just call it The Factory.' But I'm hearing some good news on that front. So maybe it'll be The Factory.

哦，哇。The Factory 活了。

Oh, wow. The Factory lives.

你一定会喜欢看 LinkedIn 上的网红们试图从每个新的科技故事中学到东西。他们会说：“我们能从 ChatGPT 这个名字中学到什么？”要么这个名字确实是天才之举，因为它太以技术为中心，完全透明地说明了它是什么。但我想我同意你的看法，Carl。这更多是偶然的。

You have to love watching the LinkedIn influencer dudes try and learn something from every new tech story. They're like, 'What can we learn from the name ChatGPT?' It's like either the name is actually a stroke of genius because it's so tech-centric that it's completely transparent about what it is. But I think I'm with you, Carl. It's kind of incidental more than anything.

是的，我觉得没关系。外面有太多糟糕的名字了。

Yeah, I think it doesn't matter. There are so many terrible names out there.

我告诉人们命名的主要标准是，它必须主动地“不糟糕”。一旦它脱离了糟糕区域，就处于中性状态。它就像一个杠杆。我的意思是，我不知道你是否也想过这个，但当我们讨论这个播客的名字 Access 时，这个名字确实有一些包袱，尤其是在媒体领域，但我想：“当我们找设计师做 logo 时，它会看起来很酷。”然后我们请来设计师，他说：“哇，这个词真好。我能用这个词做很多事。”我的意思是，Nothing 的点阵。突然间，你会觉得：“哦，它行得通。”一旦你看到点阵 logo 中的 Nothing 这个词。

My main criteria I tell people for naming is that it has to actively be not terrible. Once it is out of the terrible zone, it's kind of in neutral. It's just kind of a lever. I mean, I don't know if you thought of this as well, but when we were talking about the name Access for this podcast, there's certainly some baggage with that name, especially in media, but I was like, 'That's just going to look really cool as a logo when we get a designer to do it.' And then we bring the designer in and he's like, 'Wow, what a word. I could do so much with this word.' And I mean, the Nothing dot matrix. All of a sudden it's like, 'Oh, it works.' As soon as you see the word Nothing in the dot matrix logo.

我喜欢 Access。我相信随着播客发展，它会成为一个好名字。

I like Access. I'm sure it will be a great name once the pod grows.

是的。好的，Carl，感谢你的到来。

Yeah. Well, Carl, we appreciate you coming on.

谢谢邀请。很有趣。

Thanks for having me. It was fun.

谢谢“Nothing”，Carl。

Thanks for nothing, Carl.

不，你就是非得这么说，是吧？

No, you just had to do that, didn't you?

我确实说了。我确实说了。我现在是个爸爸了。我们是新来的，所以请关注、点赞、订阅。你知道在 AccessPod 所有平台上该怎么做，包括 YouTube，那里有节目的完整视频。如果你喜欢这一集，请留下五星评价，不能低于五星，如果平台要求，也请点赞。这很重要，能帮助节目被更多人看到。请在收听播客的所有地方订阅。你可以在 sources.news 找到 Alex 的通讯，在 Twitter 上找到我 @hamburger，在 meaning.co 公司找到我。

I did. I did. I'm a dad now. We're new here, so please follow, like, subscribe. You know what to do on all your platforms of choice at AccessPod, including YouTube, where we have full video of the show. If you like this episode, please leave a five-star review, not less than five, and a thumbs up if that's also what the platform is asking. It means a lot. It helps the show get seen by more people. Please subscribe everywhere you get podcasts. You can find Alex's newsletter at sources.news and you can find me at hamburger on Twitter and at meaning.co company.

Access 是 Vox Media 播客网络的一部分。我们的制作人是 Sherz Dum。我们下周见。再见。感谢 Notion 对 Access 的支持。Notion 和他们的 Notion agents 到底做什么？比如追踪节拍、来源、公开记录请求和事实核查？一个 agent 可以发现冲突的日期、标记缺失的引用，甚至准备后续跟进。它甚至还能运行节目、嘉宾研究、节目流程、编辑检查清单、资产库和交付。你可以告诉 agent 为周四的录制做准备，它会从笔记和链接中整理简报，填写流程模板，并通知所有需要到场的人。这很有用。所以，是的，它可以做所有这些甚至更多，无论你的工作流程如何。亲自看看，在 notion.com/vox 免费试用 Notion 和 agents。对 Access 的支持来自 Warp。Warp 是顶级的编码 agent，也是增长最快的 AI 公司之一。

Access is part of the Vox Media podcast network. Our producer is Sherz Dum. We will see you next week. Bye. Thanks to Notion for their support of Access. What does Notion and their Notion agents actually do? How about track beats, sources, open record requests, and fact check? An agent can spot conflicting dates, flag missing citations, and even tee up follow-ups. And it could also even run the show, guest research, run of show, edit checklists, asset library, and delivery. You could tell agent to prep for Thursday's taping, and it'll assemble a brief from notes and links, fill the rundown template, and ping everyone who needs to be in the studio. That's useful. So, yeah, it can do all that and more, whatever your workflow. See for yourself and try Notion and agents free at notion.com/vox. Support for Access comes from Warp. Warp is a top-ranked coding agent and one of the fastest growing AI companies.

Warp 受到超过 70 万名开发者和 56% 的《财富》500 强企业的信赖，正在重新定义软件的构建方式。它理解你的机器栈和代码库，将终端的功能与 IDE 的交互性相结合，为你提供与智能体紧密的反馈循环，以便提示、审查和交付生产级代码。了解为什么开发者平均每周节省 5 小时。在 warp.dev/acess 免费试用 Warp，或仅需 5 美元解锁 Pro 版。

Trusted by over 700,000 developers and 56% of the Fortune 500, Warp is redefining how software gets built. It understands your machine stack and codebase, combining the power of a terminal with the interactivity of an IDE, giving you a tight feedback loop with agents to prompt, review, and ship production-ready code. Find out why developers save an average of 5 hours a week. Try Warp Free or Unlock Pro for just $5 at warp.dev/acess.