打造 Meta：安德鲁·博斯沃思谈构建信息流、AR/VR 以及 Facebook 早期的经验教训

你基本上是 Facebook 的第 10 号工程师。我猜有很多人们不常听说的痛苦和磨难。

You were basically the 10th engineer at Facebook. I imagine there was a lot of pain and suffering that people don't often hear about.

我一次睡眠从不超过 4 小时。我必须每 4 小时醒来一次，查看报告，看看是否有人在攻击网站。电影里不会告诉你这些。你每周工作 120 小时，没有爱好。我不想抹去其中的浪漫色彩。只是我们最常听到的那些浪漫故事都来自成功者。人们想要全身心投入某件事并承担风险，这是健康的，但这并不光鲜。

I didn't sleep for more than 4 hours at a time. I had to wake up every 4 hours and check the report and see if anyone was attacking the site. They don't tell you about that stuff in the movies. You worked 120 hours per week, you had no hobbies. I don't want to take away from the romanticism of it. It's just that most often we hear those romantic stories from the successes. It's a healthy thing for people to want to throw themselves into something and take that risk, but it is not glamorous.

比如当时，新闻动态是你在 Facebook 的早期项目之一。人们不想要它。他们错了。显然现在新闻动态比人们想象的要容易。

Like at the time, the news feed was one of your early projects at Facebook. People did not want it. They were wrong. Clearly now Newsfeed was an easier case than people suspect.

每个人都很愤怒，同时他们立即将产品的使用量翻倍。就经济效用而言，新闻动态和广告的维恩图今天创造了万亿美元的价值。

Everyone was outraged at the same time as they immediately doubled their usage of the product. In terms of the economic utility, the Venn diagram of boss of Newsfeed and ads create a trillion dollars of value today.

我的嘉宾是 Andrew Bosworth，或者大多数人熟知的 BOS。BOS 是 Meta 的首席技术官。他在 2006 年初加入当时还叫 Facebook 的公司，是最早的工程师之一。在 Meta 的 18 年任期内，他创造了互联网历史上一些最具影响力和最重要的产品，包括 Facebook 新闻动态——这是所有社交网络中第一个算法排序的内容流，基本上就是今天人们所认为的 Facebook。他还构建了最初的 Facebook 移动广告平台，随后又运营了四年。他还帮助构建并扩展了 Facebook 消息系统、个人资料、时间线、Facebook 群组，甚至内部工程训练营。最近，他担任广告和商业平台副总裁，领导工程、产品、研究、分析和设计。2017 年，他创建了公司的 AR/VR 组织，现在称为 Reality Labs。如今，Andrew 领导 Meta 在 AR、VR 和混合现实方面的努力，以及 Quest、Ray-Ban Meta 智能眼镜等消费硬件。在我们广泛的对话中，我们涉及了许多重要的经验和故事：Facebook 早期到底是什么样子，为什么你应该更频繁地向经理寻求帮助，为什么沟通就是工作，Meta 过去几年转型的教训，BOS 对 Apple Vision Pro 的看法，一堆领导和职业建议，构建第一个新闻动态是什么感觉以及从那次经历中得到的教训，还有失败和成功的故事等等。如果你喜欢这个播客，别忘了在你最喜欢的播客应用或 YouTube 上订阅并关注它。这是避免错过未来剧集的最佳方式，对播客帮助极大。接下来，在简短赞助商致辞后，我为你带来 Andrew Bosworth，又名 BOS。

My guest is Andrew Bosworth, or BOS as most people know him. BOS is the chief technology officer of Meta. He joined what was then called Facebook in early 2006 as one of the first engineers, and during his 18-year tenure at Meta he created some of the most impactful and important products in Internet history, including the Facebook news feed, which was the first ever algorithmically ranked content feed of any social network and is basically what people think of as Facebook today. He also built the original Facebook mobile ads platform, which he then ran for another four years. He also helped build and scale the Facebook messaging system, the profile, the timeline, Facebook groups, and even the internal engineering boot camp. Most recently he served as VP of ads and business platform, where he led engineering, product, research, analytics, and design, and in 2017 he created the company's AR/VR organization, now called Reality Labs. These days Andrew leads Meta's efforts in AR, VR, and mixed reality, along with consumer hardware across Quest, Ray-Ban Meta smart glasses, and more. In our wide-ranging conversation we touch on so many important lessons and stories: what it was really like in the early days of Facebook, why you should be asking your manager for help more often, why communication is the job, lessons for Meta's turnaround over the past couple years, BOS's thoughts on the Apple Vision Pro, a bunch of leadership and career advice, what it was like to build the very first news feed and lessons from that experience, and stories of failure and stories of success and so much more. If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube. It's the best way to avoid missing future episodes and it helps the podcast tremendously. With that, I bring you Andrew Bosworth, AKA BOS, after a short word from our sponsors.

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This episode is brought to you by Vanta. When it comes to ensuring your company has top-notch security practices, things get complicated fast. Now you can assess risk, secure the trust of your customers, and automate compliance for SOC 2, ISO 27001, HIPAA, and more with a single platform, Vanta. Vanta's market-leading trust management platform helps you continuously monitor compliance alongside reporting and tracking risk. Plus, you can save hours by completing security questionnaires with Vanta AI. Join thousands of global companies that use Vanta to automate evidence collection, unify risk management, and streamline security reviews. Get $1,000 off Vanta when you go to vanta.com/Lenny. That's vanta.com/Lenny.

本集由 EPO 赞助。EPO 是一个下一代 A/B 测试和功能管理平台，由 Airbnb、Uber 和 Snowflake 的校友为现代增长团队打造。Twitch、Muro、ClickUp 和 DraftKings 等公司都在使用 EPO 来推动他们的实验。实验对于推动增长和理解新功能的表现越来越重要。EPO 帮助你提高实验速度，同时以其他商业工具无法做到的方式解锁严格的深度分析。当我在 Airbnb 时，我最喜欢的一件事就是我们的实验平台，我可以轻松设置实验、解决问题并自行分析表现。EPO 做到了这一切甚至更多，拥有先进的统计方法，可以帮助你缩短数周的实验时间，一个易于使用的 UI 用于深入分析表现，以及开箱即用的报告，帮助你避免烦人的冗长分析周期。EPO 还让你轻松与团队分享实验见解，激发 A/B 测试飞轮的新想法。EPO 为每个用例提供实验支持，包括产品增长、机器学习、货币化和电子邮件营销。访问 epo.com/Lenny 查看 EPO，将你的实验速度提高 10 倍。网址是 epo.com/Lenny。

This episode is brought to you by EPO. EPO is a next-generation A/B testing and feature management platform built by alums of Airbnb, Uber, and Snowflake for modern growth teams. Companies like Twitch, Muro, ClickUp, and DraftKings are on EPO to power their experiments. Experimentation is increasingly essential for driving growth and for understanding the performance of new features. EPO helps you increase experimentation velocity while unlocking rigorous deep analysis in a way that no other commercial tool does. When I was at Airbnb, one of the things that I loved most was our experimentation platform, where I could set up experiments easily, troubleshoot issues, and analyze performance all on my own. EPO does all that and more with advanced statistical methods that can help you shave weeks off experiment time, an accessible UI for diving deeper into performance, and out-of-the-box reporting that helps you avoid annoying prolonged analytic cycles. EPO also makes it easy for you to share experiment insights with your team, sparking new ideas for the A/B testing flywheel. EPO powers experimentation across every use case, including product growth, machine learning, monetization, and email marketing. Check out EPO at epo.com/Lenny and 10x your experiment velocity. That's epo.com/Lenny.

BOS，非常感谢你来到这里，欢迎来到播客。

BOS, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.

感谢邀请。我一直是你的节目的长期粉丝，喜欢你发布的所有内容，所以很高兴终于有机会加入。

Thanks for having me. I've been a long time fan of your program and all the things that you've been putting out, so I'm glad to finally get a chance to join.

我也是，真的很兴奋能邀请你来。我至少有十亿个问题想问你，但我想先从我发现的一些关于你的趣事开始。如果我过一遍，然后你挑一个最突出的，讲讲背后的故事，怎么样？

Same, I'm really excited to have you here. I have at least a billion questions I want to ask you, but I want to start with a few fun facts that I've found about you. What if I go through them and then just pick one that stands out and then tell the story behind it? How does that sound?

好的，听起来不错。

All right, sounds good.

好的，你参加过 14 次舞会。是的，好的，我继续。好的，哇，这开场很强。我可能是大学里的全国跆拳道冠军。你曾是 Mark Zuckerberg 在 AI 课上的助教，这其实不是你进入 Facebook 的方式。据我了解，哈佛曾招募你去打橄榄球。你小时候在 4-H 俱乐部非常活跃，养动物并在县集市上展示。你曾与 David Copperfield 同台。这是真的。MC Hammer 曾告诉你你的 outfit 很时尚，George W. Bush 总统称赞过你的鞋子和你的光头。

Okay, you went to 14 proms. Yeah, okay, I'm gonna keep going. Okay, wow, that's a strong opener. I might be the Run, uh, your nation tawan do champion in college. You were Mark Zuckerberg's TA in a class on AI, which isn't actually how you landed at Facebook. For my understanding, uh, Harvard was recruiting you to play football for them. You were very active in the 4-H club and you raised animals and showed them at county fairs when you were growing up. You once shared a stage with David Copperfield. That's true. MC Hammer once told you that your outfit was stylish, and President George W. Bush complimented you on your shoes and the shine of your head.

是的，这些都是真的。首先我想说哇。我得确保人们明白我是全国跆拳道冠军，但我是绿带，这就像 JV 冠军一样，所以大家清楚那是什么。重量级，重量级对打。呃，我讲讲舞会的故事。这是个有趣的故事。它与 4-H 的故事有关。我曾是重要的 4-H 成员，全国 4-H 名人堂之类的，做了所有那些事。因此，你知道，4-H 是一个很棒的项目，青年项目，是男女同校的项目，我走遍全州、全国参加领导力活动、会议，做很多公开演讲。几乎每个 4-H 活动都有舞会。不知道他们是不是在会议结束时，在 literally 像营地结束时，你去露营一周，最后有舞会。所以，如果你想……最重要的是

Yeah, these are all true. I want to say wow first of all. I got to make sure people understand I was a national taekwondo champion as a green belt, which is like a very, that's like being the JV champion, just so everyone's clear on what that is. Heavyweight, heavyweight sparring. Uh, I'll tell the prom story. It's a funny one. It's related to the 4-H story. It was a big time 4-Her, uh, National 4-H kind of Hall of Fame, did all the stuff there. As a consequence, I was, you know, it's 4-H is a wonderful program, youth program, it's a co-ed program, and I was all over the state, all over the country doing, you know, leadership events and doing these conferences and doing a lot of public speaking. And almost every 4-H event has a dance. Don't know that they have like at the end of like the conference, at the end of the, literally like camp, you go camping for a week, at the end there's a dance. And so as a consequence, the most important thing if you want to

我参加过很多次毕业舞会。我舞跳得不错，结果发现，至少在 1990 年代，女生挑选舞伴时的高阶标准是：他愿不愿意跳舞，以及他会不会跳舞？而我的答案都是肯定的。再加上我认识一群在不同学校读书的女生，如果这就是目标的话，那简直就是成功的配方。高二和高三那年，我一个周末参加了三场：周五、周六和周日晚上各一场。

I went to a lot of proms. I was a good dancer, and it turns out that the high-level bit, at least in the 1990s for girls selecting who they might want to go to prom with, was: will he and can he dance? And the answer with me was yes. Combined with the fact that I knew a bunch of girls who went to different schools, that's the recipe for success right there, if that's the goal somebody has. My junior year and my senior year, I went to three in one weekend: a Friday, a Saturday, and a Sunday night.

关于你的另一个有趣事实是，你基本上是 Facebook 的第 10 号工程师，那还是在它成为明显成功故事之前很久。我想象早期有很多人们不常听到的痛苦、煎熬和挣扎。那些早期日子——人们看《社交网络》这样的电影，看起来好像，哦，那太有趣了，我创办了一家公司，它会成为万亿美元的成功故事。我很好奇那些早期日子是什么样的，或者有什么记忆让你印象深刻。

Another fun fact about you is you were basically the 10th engineer at Facebook, initially way before it was a clear success story. I imagine there was a lot of pain and suffering and struggle that people don't often hear about. Those early days—they see a movie like The Social Network, it looks like, oh, that was so much fun, I got to start a company, it's going to become a trillion-dollar success story. I'm curious just what those early days were like, or memories that stand out to you.

是的，关于第 10 号工程师这个说法有个小笑话，就是我和另外五个人同时加入，而之前已经有九个人、九名工程师。我们同一天加入，所以我们都是第 10 号工程师，所以根据你怎么编号，大概在 10 到 16 之间。我在博客上听过这个，也经常讲这个故事，就是：那很有趣，有巨大的情谊和形成的记忆，但它们是在非常紧张的时期锻造出来的。那时我们几乎所有人都住在离办公室一英里以内。我们大部分饭都一起吃，因为我们在工作——不是说我们不是朋友，而是因为我们在工作。就像，哦酷，滚进去吃个饭，再滚回去工作。有些小事你不会感激，比如没有人帮你。没有专家。所以不是像，嘿，我遇到一个棘手问题，该找谁谈？而是，没有人——你应该自己想办法解决。或者像，天哪，我的服务器容量不够了。就像，酷，你应该去 Fry's Electronics，买一堆组件，组装一台新服务器，然后运行它——也许开车去 colo 机架，然后回来运行它。人们真的低估了这一点：今天你去一家中等规模的公司上班，尤其是随着支持初创公司的初创公司大量增长——像工资、财务、人力资源这些事——在很多情况下都是专业处理的。在 2000 年代初期根本不是这样。就只有你和你自己的车，以及你想怎么花时间。所以我不想抹去它的浪漫色彩。只是我们最常听到那些成功者的浪漫故事。我们很少听到有人真的牺牲了 20 多岁的社交或外向有趣的环境。这对我有回报，所以没人会为我感到难过，也不应该。但还有其他人做了完全相同的事——也许他们更努力，也许他们更聪明，也许他们做得更好——但对他们没有回报。这是巨大的牺牲。所以我喜欢人们——我喜欢对初创公司的热情，我喜欢初创文化，我认为人们想要投身于某事并承担风险是健康的。但它并不光鲜。当时，回想起来，好像我们有一圈光环，但当时并不觉得光鲜。

Yeah, there's a bit of a joke in the 10th thing, which is me and five other guys all joined at the same time, and there were nine people, nine engineers before us. We joined the same day, so we're all the 10th engineer, so somewhere between 10 and 16 depending on how you want to do the numeration on that. I've heard this about this on my blog and I tell this story a lot, which is: it was fun and there was tremendous camaraderie and memories that were formed, but they were formed in a kind of a forge of really intense times. At that time almost all of us lived within one mile of the office. We ate most of our meals together because we were working—not to say that we weren't also friends, but because we were working. It's like, oh cool, just roll into a meal and roll back into work. And there's little things that you don't appreciate, which is like there was nobody to help you. There was no expert. So it wasn't like, hey, I'm struggling with this one tricky problem, who should I talk to? It's like, nobody—you should talk to yourself and figure this out. Or it's like, oh man, my servers are out of capacity. It's like, cool, you should go to Fry's Electronics, you should buy a bunch of components, you should build a new server, and then you should run it—maybe drive into the colo rack and then get back and run it. People really undervalue the fact that when you go to work even at a moderate midsize corporation today, especially with the tremendous growth of startups supporting startups—things like payroll and finance and HR—these things are professionally handled in many cases. That was just not the case in the early 2000s. It was just like you and your personal car and whatever you wanted to do with your time. So I don't want to take away from the romanticism of it. It's just that most often we hear those romantic stories from the successes. We so rarely hear somebody who went through really sacrificing a lot of my 20s from any kind of social or outgoing fun environment. It paid off for me, so no one feels bad for me, nor should they. But there are other people who do the exact same thing—maybe they worked harder, maybe they were smarter, maybe they did better—and it didn't play out for them. And it's a big sacrifice. So I love that people—I love the enthusiasm for startups, I love startup culture, I think it's a healthy thing for people to want to throw themselves into something and take that risk. But it is not glamorous. At the time, in retrospect, it's like, oh, we have a little halo around it, but at the time it doesn't feel glamorous.

是的，你提到的这个帖子，你说你每周工作 120 小时，没有爱好，体重增加了很多，而且你——是的，我们喝了很多酒来弥补。

Yeah, and this post you mentioned, you said that you worked 120 hours per week, you had no hobbies, and you gained a lot of weight, and you—yeah, we drank a lot to make up for it.

所以我胖了很多，是的。

So I gained a lot, yeah.

而且你吃得也不健康。

And you weren't eating healthy.

太疯狂了。有一段时间——我想我以前讲过——有一段时间，我最早构建的东西之一是一个反垃圾邮件、类似反爬虫的防御机制。但我们没有任何运维支持。没有 24/7 在线支持。所以我构建了这个工具。我不得不每四个小时醒来一次，持续了大约两年。我一次睡眠从未超过四个小时。我必须每四个小时醒来检查报告，看看是否有人在攻击网站，如果有，我就得起来反击。如果没有，酷，我就回去睡觉。但这不是——电影里不会告诉你这些。你知道，那就像更糟——几乎和养一个新生儿一样糟。而且没有人要求我这么做。就像——我主动承担的。甚至没有人要求我做反垃圾邮件、反爬虫的东西。我只是觉得——那是个问题，我就去做了。那就是解决方案。如果我是一个更好的工程师，也许我会解决一个更好的问题。所以也许就结束这个话题：当你和创始人交谈时，你在这方面给他们什么建议？

It was crazy. There's a time—I think I've told this before—there was a time where one of the first things I built was an anti-spam, kind of anti-scraping defense mechanism. But we didn't have any ops support. There was no like 24/7 online support. So I built this tool. I had to wake up every four hours for about two years. I didn't sleep for more than four hours at a time. I had to wake up every four hours and check the report and see if anyone was attacking the site, and if they were, I was up and I had to go battle back. And if they weren't, cool, I'd go back to sleep. But that's not—they don't tell you about that stuff in the movies. You know, that's like worse—almost as worse than having a kid, a newborn. And nobody asked me to do it. It was just like—I took it. Nobody even asked me to do the anti-spam, anti-scraping stuff. I just like—that was a problem and I went and did that. That was the solution. I come—if I was a better engineer, maybe I'd have solved a better problem. But so maybe just to close out that thread: when you talk to founders, what advice do you give them along these lines?

我想对此谨慎一点，因为——你知道我告诉创始人的第一件事是，我从未当过创始人，我想认识到这个区别。你知道，我在 2006 年 1 月 9 日加入。那几乎是公司成立两年后。我不必做——我没有参与融资，我不必处理那方面的事情，也不必应对董事会或业务方面的事情。我在某种程度上真的很幸运能在那个时候加入。这是我告诉创始人的第一件事：你应该对我的建议持保留态度。我实际上没有处在你的位置。如果我可以 compliment 你——真的，我喜欢你们项目的一点是，我们行业有一整套专业人士系统。而我——当我在硅谷的科技界成长时，你总是听说像 ACM，计算机协会。你听说这些传奇的专业组织支持我们领域的人。但由于技术变革的快速步伐和这些机构的参与性质——甚至学者，甚至整个学术界——都有点脱节。你从那些地方得到的工具在我们的领域没有用。所以我确实认为我们彼此给予的指导一直是一个关键且持续的资源。今天有——现在像你的播客和你的通讯这样的资源，实际上真正旨在帮助我们行业的专业人士，这种方式几乎已经缺失了 15、20 年。我喜欢看到这一点，因为如果你是一个崭露头角的工程师——真的，你过去必须认识某人并问他们问题。所以很多时候我帮助创始人的是——我可以帮助他们制定战略，我可以帮助他们思考技术选择，我可以思考业务，我可以思考——

I want to be cautious about this because—you know what I tell—the first thing I tell founders is that I've never been a founder, and I want to recognize the difference. You know, I joined in January 9th, 2006. That's almost two years after the company started. I didn't have to do—I wasn't involved with fundraising, I didn't have to do any of that side of things, and I didn't have to deal with the board or the business side of things. I really was lucky in a way to have joined when I did. That's the first thing I tell founders: you should take my advice with a grain of salt. I have not actually been in your shoes. If I can compliment you—really, one of the things I like about your program is there's a whole system of professionals in our industry. And I was—when I grew up in technology in the Valley, right, you always heard about like the ACM, the Association for Computing Machinery. You heard of these legendary professional organizations that supported people in our fields. And by the nature of the rapid pace of change in technology and the nature of the engagement of those institutions—even academics, even academia broadly—kind of are out of touch. The tools that you got from those places weren't useful in our field. So I do think the mentorship that we give each other has been a critical and sustaining resource. There is today—now resources like your podcast and your newsletter that are actually really designed to help people who are professionals in our industry in a way that has almost been kind of missing for 15, 20 years. And I love to see that because if you're an up-and-coming engineer—literally, you used to have to know somebody and ask them a question. And so a lot of times what I'm helping founders with—I can help them with the strategy, I can help them think through the technology choices, I can through business, I can think—

通过管理、组织结构——但我也尽量说清楚：有很多事我根本不需要暴露出来。就算我们谈论 2006 年加入 Facebook 的普通工程师有多难，天哪，2004 年的马克·扎克伯格大概更难。这个故事肯定有人讲过，但还是值得说。所以我觉得这两者——几乎都是规模和变量的问题。无论你把难度调低多少，挑战本身都挺有意思，值得聊。

Through the management, the organization structure—but I also try to be very clear: there's a bunch of stuff that I just never had to expose. Even as we talk about how tough it was for the average engineer joining Facebook in 2006, man, it was even tougher for Mark Zuckerberg in 2004, probably. And that's a story that's been told, I'm sure, but still. So I think these are both—it's almost all scale and variant. No matter how far you dial back, the challenges kind of are interesting and are worth talking about.

也许你最受欢迎的一篇帖子，是你分享的关于你经常给出的建议。你说：在我作为管理者、董事会成员、顾问和朋友的职业生涯中，我发现我必须最频繁给出的建议，就是让人们更直接地利用他们的领导者。你能谈谈这个吗？它意味着什么，又是什么样子？

Maybe your most popular post is this quote that you share about the advice you often give. What you say is: the advice I find I have to give more frequently than any other in my career as a manager, a board member, an adviser, and a friend is for people to more directly leverage their leaders. Yeah, can you talk about that and what that means and what that looks like?

这是非常正常、自然、健康的事。顺便说，我们在个人关系里也会这么做。就像我在帖子里说的，我们想自己搞定——我们想自己搞定，向所有人证明我们能自己搞定。我们脑子里会想：如果我求助，我是不是已经放弃了那个目标？我是不是已经在一个顶级目标上认输了，那个目标就是证明我能自己搞定？但我们常常忘记的是，大多数时候，你的工作不是自己搞定。你的工作是把它做成——把事情做成，做好，做对，做得称职。而很多时候，你需要的工具就在你的管理者、你的伙伴、你的顾问、你的导师那里。它们就在那儿。

It's such a normal and natural, healthy thing. And by the way, we do it in our personal relationships. Like I said in the post, we want to do it ourselves—we want to do it ourselves to prove to everyone that we can do it ourselves. And we think in our heads: if I ask for help, haven't I already given up that goal? Haven't I just admitted defeat on one of my top-level goals, which is to demonstrate that I can do it myself? But what we so often forget is that more often than not, your job is not to do it yourself. Your job is to get it done—to have the thing done, done well, done right, done competently. And a lot of times, the tools that you need to do that live with your manager, with your partner, with your advisor, with your mentor. Like, that's where they live.

所以就像，你知道，作为管理者，我有多少次经历过——我告诉某人这是工作，他们说知道了，然后走开，回来，做完了，但做错了。我不怪他们做错。他们没跟我确认，他们误解了，我们沟通有误。这个锅我背，没问题。但六个月后，事情没做对，因为他们误解了任务简报，我们沟通简报有误。或者他们回来，花了一年，我说为什么花了一年而不是六个月？他们说哦天哪，我有一堆事要处理。如果他们给我发邮件，我本可以铲平那些东西，我本可以清路，我本可以说哦不不不，别担心那个，这才是重点。然后我们本可以早六个月完成，他们也不会那么沮丧。

So it's like, you know, how many times as a manager have I gone through and somebody's—you know, I've told them here's the job, they're like I got it, they go off, they come back, it's done, it's wrong. And I'm not blaming them for it being wrong. They didn't check in with me, they misunderstood, we miscommunicated. I'll take the L on that, that's no problem. But here we are six months later, it's not done right because they misunderstood the brief, we miscommunicated the brief. Or they come back and it took a year, and I'm like why did this take a year instead of six months? And they're like oh man, I had all these things I had to deal with. Where if they had emailed me, I could have bulldozed that stuff, I could have cleared the path, I could have said oh no no no, don't worry about that, this is the thing. And then we'd have been done six months sooner, and they would have been less frustrated.

所以，轻触即可。现在，我确实认为作为管理者，我们也有责任说，嘿，你知道，那本身就是工作，所以你得自己去搞清楚。我经常告诉我的管理者们的一件事：我们做的最有力的事情之一就是拒绝裁决。有人会拿一件事来找我——很多时候我们觉得有义务介入和帮忙。我会说，不，看，我觉得你能搞定。我觉得你面临的挑战是正确的挑战。我觉得你的方法是对的。尽力而为就好。就是这样。所以作为领导者、导师、顾问、董事会成员，我们也有责任这么做。

And so, light touches. Now, I do think as a manager we also have a job to say, hey, you know, that's kind of the work, so you gotta go figure that out. And one of my things I always tell my managers: one of the most powerful things we do is refuse to rule. Someone will bring me a thing—a lot of times we feel obligated to weigh in and help. I'll be like, no, look, I think you got it. I think the challenges you're facing are the right challenges. I think you're approaching it in the right way. Just do your best there. And like, that's what it is. So there is a responsibility as well for those of us who are leaders, mentors, advisers, board members to do that.

但顺便说，我们在个人关系里也这么做，对吧？比如你和你的伴侣在一起，你想把事情做对，但你不跟他们谈。你只是在冒巨大的风险，回报却很小。如果你问他们，嘿，你想要——这是你想要的完成方式吗？他们不会生气的。我不知道。所以我确实觉得有点好笑，我们在脑子里建了那么多城堡，那些小隔间让我们不去接触周围为我们成功而建的结构。

But by the way, we do this in personal relationships, right? Like you're with your partner and you're trying to do something the right way, but you're not talking to them about it. You're just taking a huge risk there for very little reward. Like they're not gonna be mad if you ask them, like, hey, do you want—is this how you wanted it done? Like, I don't know. And so I do think it's kind of funny how much we build these castles in our mind, these little silos that keep us from engaging the structures that are built around us that are designed to help us succeed.

我昨天刚看到一个很棒的说法。我看到帕特里克·斯图尔特，他是我一直最喜欢的演员之一，我也喜欢他演的角色。他谈到人们去试镜——这对演员来说很残酷，对吧？你去试 30、40 个角色，被拒绝，很难。大家都听说过。他说：没有人比你要试镜的那个人更希望你成功。因为他们希望你很棒。因为你一旦很棒，他们就搞定了。他们希望你惊艳。这就像你的管理者。没有人比你的管理者更希望你惊艳。因为当你惊艳时，你的管理者——他的生活更轻松，她的生活更轻松。所以我觉得我们陷入的心态是：不不不，他们在测试我。他们没有。他们在为你加油，我向你保证。

I saw this great quote actually just yesterday. I saw Patrick Stewart, who was one of my favorite actors of all time and whose characters I love. And he talked about people going on casting calls—and this is a brutal thing for actors, right? You're going on 30, 40 things, you're getting rejected, it's tough. Everyone's kind of heard about this. And he said: no one wants you to succeed more than the person you are auditioning for. Because they want you to be awesome. Because as soon as you're awesome, they're done. Like, they want you to be amazing. That's like your manager. Nobody wants you to be more awesome than your manager does. Because when you're amazing, your manager—his life gets easier, her life gets easier. So I just think that's the mentality we get into: no no no, they're testing me. They're not. They are rooting for you, I promise you that.

我喜欢这个建议。我想人们不这么做的原因，就像你说的，是他们不想让管理者觉得他们不知道自己在做什么，或者解决不了。对于什么时候该去求助，你有什么建议和指导吗？

I love that advice. I imagine the reason people don't do this, as you said, is they don't want their manager to think they don't know what they're doing or they can't solve it. Do you have any advice and guidance for when it makes sense to go reach out and ask?

对于特别胆小的人，我认为你可以设定一个框架，让你的管理者很容易参与。你可以说，嘿，我在这件事上有进展，这是我卡住的地方，这是当前的项目。我甚至会说，嘿，如果这一切看起来都好，不需要回复。如果这里有什么你希望我做得更好、不同，或者你觉得你能帮忙的，你知道，告诉我。我喜欢简洁的，比如五到十句话的邮件：不需要回复，这是现状。即使一切都很顺利，我觉得，酷，这个人理解紧迫性，理解任务，而且给我一点心跳，一点回 ping。

One of the things I think for people who are timid about this, especially, is I think you can put a framing around it that's really easy for your manager to engage with. You can say, hey, I'm making progress on this, this is what I'm blocked on, this is the current program. And I'll even say, hey, if this all looks good to you, no response required. If there is something here that you want me to do better, different, that you think you could help with, you know, let me know. I love a tight, you know, like a five, 10 sentence email: no response required, here's where things are. Even if everything is going really well, I feel like, cool, this is a person understands the urgency, they understand the assignment, and they're giving me a little heartbeat, a little pinging back.

然后，如果两周后，假设阻塞问题很严重，那你就说，嘿嘿，抱歉，但我现在确实需要你的帮助。我确实卡在这件事上。我有上下文。你就像——我有一个心理模型，知道你在正确的事情上辛勤工作，在我让你做的那件事上。即使那时，当你被卡住时，你也可以让我的生活超级轻松。比如，嘿，我希望你能做的是，如果你能给这个人发封邮件，这是草稿，加上这些想法会有帮助。或者，这里有一些具体问题列出来。比如，我想这是你想要的——对吗？是或否。如果否，好的，我们回来，多花点时间。如果是，我们都好。

And then also, if two weeks later, let's say the blocking issue is bad, then you say, hey hey, I am sorry, but I do actually need your help now. I'm actually blocked on this thing. I have the context. You like—I have a mental model of you toiling away on the right thing, on the thing I asked you to do over there. Even then, when you're blocked, you can make my life super easy. Like, hey, what I'd love for you to do, if you could send an email to this person, here's a draft with these thoughts that would help. Or it's like, here are specific questions framed up. Like, I think this is what you want—is this right? Yes or no. If no, okay, we'll come back, we'll spend more time. If yes, we're all good.

这样一来，现在不仅我跟上了进度，我有了心理模型，我参与了，而且你让我帮你的成本变得超低。这只需要——人们总是惊讶，为我工作的人总是惊讶，当我告诉他们我的工作有多大一部分是做这些小事。在我这个规模上，有点像转盘子。我有 1 万到 1.5 万名员工，取决于你怎么算。所以你就像，我时不时得拿一个新盘子，一根新杆。

It makes it so it's now—not only am I up to speed, I have a mental model, I'm engaged, also you've made it super cheap for me to help you. It just takes—and people are always surprised, people who work for me are always surprised when I tell them how big a part of my job is doing these little types of things. It's a little spinning plates at my scale. I've got 10 or 15,000 employees, depending on how you want to count different things. And so you're just like, I every now and then I got to get a whole new plate, a whole new rod.

而且真的投入了努力。大部分时候我只是试图触及所有事情并保持势头。所以如果某件事掉落了，而没人告诉我“嘿，我们在这里失去了旋转速度，我们正在失去势头”，哦，我会很沮丧。我会想，现在那个盘子掉了，我得在这里重新开始一个新的事情。所以我认为人们只是低估了——他们对我的工作的看法和我的工作实际不同。我的工作实际上是大量的小触碰。所以我认为这里的一个关键要点是，一，更多地倾向于向你的经理和领导者寻求帮助。我喜欢这种框架方式，它不总是需要像“这是我需要你做的”，而是“这是正在发生的事情，这是可能阻碍我的事情，这是我的问题，这是正在发生的事情”。

And really put the effort into it. For the most part I'm just trying to touch everything and keep the momentum going. And so if something falls and somebody didn't tell me that hey we're losing rotational velocity here, we're losing momentum, oh I'm bummed. I'm like, now that plate fell, I got to start a whole new thing over here now. So I think people just underestimate—they think of my job differently than my job actually is. My job is actually tons of little touches. So I think a key takeaway here is one, index more towards asking your manager and leaders for help. And I love this way of framing it of doesn't always need to be like here's what I need from you, it's here's what's happening, here's things that might be blocking me, here's questions I have, here's things that are going on.

这实际上类似于我发现非常强大的东西，我会快速分享。这个想法是状态——我称之为“Lenny 状态”邮件。我每周给我的经理发这封邮件。“Lenny 状态”，有点像国情咨文。内容是：这是我当前的优先事项，这是我广泛思考的事情，然后这是我需要你帮助的阻碍。

This is actually similar to something I found really powerful that I'll share real quickly. This idea of a state of—I call it the state of Lenny email. And I sent this email to my manager every week. The state of Lenny, it's kind of like State of the Union. And it's, uh, here's my current priorities, here's what's on my mind broadly, and then here's blockers that I need your help with.

我们实际上曾经有一个格式。我们称之为 HPMS——high、people、me，嗯。从 2008 年到 2014 年左右，Facebook 的每个经理都会发给他们的经理甚至领导团队。我的意思是，有一次我负责我们所谓的 com apps 时，我就直接发给了扎克伯格和整个领导团队。内容是：亮点是什么，包括亮点、FL slow light——比如你需要知道的大事，人们在哪里——有人遇到麻烦了吗，有人有风险吗，有人在做非常出色的工作需要表扬吗，然后是我——你个人怎么样？我们称之为 HPMS。实际上，有趣的是，我很久没想过这个了。但是的，我认为这种事情可以奏效。而且看，每个经理都不同。所以——顺便说一句，这甚至在元层面上是另一个成功——另一个人认为人们做的是他们想以同样的方式对待每个经理，但那行不通，因为不同的经理是不同的。所以但每个经理你都可以问他们喜欢如何获取更新。你可以在刚开始与他们合作时问他们，比如嘿，你的节奏是什么，你喜欢如何——你喜欢如何保持了解？所以对我来说，比如我定期进行一对一会议。随着我的组织变得更大，这些会议变得更疏远，所以人们用更多的书面东西取代了它们。但就像没有经理会因为你问“你喜欢如何获取关于我的信息？”而生气。这完全是合理的问题。

We actually used to have a format for that. We called them HPMS—high, like people, me, um. And every manager at Facebook from like 2008 to like 2014 would send to their manager or even their leadership group. I mean, at one point when I was running what we called com apps, I just sent it to like Zuck and the whole leadership group. It's like, what's the highlights, including highlights, FL slow light—like what's the big things you need to know, where are people—like is somebody in trouble, is somebody at risk, is somebody doing really amazing work that needs a shout out, and then me—how are you personally doing? HPMS we call them. Actually, it's funny, I hadn't thought about that in a long time. But yeah, I think this kind of thing can work. And look, every manager is different. So you—that's even at the meta level, by the way, is another success—another people think people do is they want to treat every manager the same, and that's not going to work because different managers are different. So but every manager you can ask how do you like to get updates. Like you can ask them when you first start working with them, like hey, like what's your cadence, like how do you like—how do you like to stay informed? And so for me, like I do regular one-on-ones. As I've gotten—the org has gotten bigger, those have gotten more distant, so people have replaced those with more written things. But like no manager will get pissed if you—it's like how do you like to get information about me? Like that's a totally reasonable thing to ask.

我喜欢你分享的具体想法，就像起草邮件给另一个团队领导说“这是我需要你告诉他们的事情，这会真正解除这个障碍”。顺便说一句，这真是个很酷的想法。而且我总是加入我自己的——我不会直接复制粘贴，就像你知道的——我总是看着它然后想，好吧，很多实际上不是关于你想让另一个人听到什么，而是关于声音、语气。它包含了很多历史。我不知道，你是否已经和他们来回 12 轮了，这对他们来说会感觉像我真的越界了，或者这是像嘿第一次听说这个，我的错，这是我们正在做的，需要你的帮助。所以很多甚至不是关于哦，让我的生活轻松，因为我想复制粘贴。很多实际上是，你如何定调和起草那封笔记中有丰富的信息，这将帮助我正确地传达它，而不是感觉我只是越界了，你知道，沉重地进来。

I love the specific idea you shared of just like drafting the email to say the other team leader of like here's what I need you to tell them that would really unblock this thing. That's such a cool idea, by the way. And and I always put my own—I don't take that copy paste it, like how you know—I'm always looking at that and be like okay, a lot of it is actually not about what you want the other person to hear, it's about like the voice, the tone. It includes a lot of history. I don't know, have you been going back in forth with them for 12 rounds and this is going to feel to them like I'm really coming over the top, or is this like hey first time you're hearing about this, my bad, like here's what we're doing, need your help. So a lot of that isn't even about oh here making my life easy because I want to copy pasted. A lot of it is actually there's a rich set of information in how you tone and how you draft that note that's going to help me land it correctly and not feel like I'm just out of band, you know, heavy coming in.

这触及了我经常听到的 Meta 工作方式的核心，那就是透明度。任何人都可以在问答环节向扎克伯格提问，人们被鼓励在内部不断发布他们的想法、他们正在做的事情，所有数据都公开分享，这经常导致泄密，我听说你非常——呃，你讨厌这个，这是你的一个痛点。

This touches on something that I often hear is very core to the way Meta works, which is transparency. Anyone can ask Zuck questions at the Q&As, people are encouraged to post constantly internally of what they're thinking, what they're working on, all the data is shared publicly, which often leads to leaks, which I hear you're very—uh, you hate and that is a pet peeve of yours.

只是感觉像违反了团队信任。只是感觉像——我从小玩运动，我踢足球、打橄榄球、田径，就像你无法想象你的一个队员向对方球队喊出战术。就像，你能——你能想象在这种情况下你会怎么做吗？就像我——你离开团队。对不起，你不能在这里。不管怎样，抱歉，继续。

Just feels like a violation of the team trust. Just feels like—I grew up playing sports, I was football, soccer, track, and like you just can't imagine one of your guys like calling out the play to the other team. It's like, can you—can you imagine what you would do in that case? Like I just—you're off the team. I'm sorry, like you can't be here. Anyways, sorry, carry on.

是的，而且有这么多人，很难找到这是谁。所以以这个缺点为例，而且——我提到还有其他缺点，也需要很多工作，而且经常让人处于尴尬境地。你看到的益处是什么，为什么这是 Meta 工作方式的重要部分？

Yeah, and there's so many more people, it's hard to find who is this. So with this downside as an example, and it's also—I mentioned there's other downsides, also takes a lot of work and it puts people on the spot a lot of times. What have you seen as benefits and why is that such a big part of Meta's way of working?

是的，这回到了我认为的原则，呃，真正优秀的人才，你想充分利用他们。你真的想确保他们被充分利用。所以任何时候他们有错误的信息或没有信息，你就已经阻碍了公司拥有的经济上最有价值的东西之一，那就是这个人的时间、注意力和才能。不仅如此，你还让他们更沮丧，现在他们更可能离开。就像如果——如果任何公司的命脉是内部的人，他们集体致力于某种目标和使命并一起工作，那么你想最大化这种潜力。而且，呃，创造这种真正开放的信息生态系统是我们做到这一点的方式之一。所以经常在我们公司发生的伟大非凡的工作不是来自这个自上而下的指令，而是来自人们不仅理解我们试图自上而下完成什么，而且还有更多信息，呃，可供他们采取行动。所以，你知道，人们谈论自上而下或自下而上的文化，在我看来有点神话。呃，如果你见过马克·扎克伯格，他不是——这不是自下而上的事情。就像我们追求的想法首先是马克·扎克伯格的想法。这并不是说他不接受新想法，当然他接受，那是自下而上的一种形式——人们可以向他提出想法，他内化它们并采取行动或不采取。但当他带来——自上而下的东西时，他不——他不是微观管理。他注重细节，我会小心这一点，但他确实为你创造了空间，让你带回他谈论的事情的三四个版本，然后他从那里塑造它。如果你没有——如果你没有自由度，当然，但如果你没有信息，你也做不到。否则，如果你没有可用的信息——我们试图完成什么，为什么我们试图做它，基础设施是什么样，可用性——性能会是什么样——好吧，你就卡住了。你就只能遵循剧本。这对高人才、高——非常无聊。

Yeah, this kind of comes back to I think the principle that, uh, really good talented people, you want to leverage them fully. You really want to make sure that they are fully leveraged. And so anytime they have the wrong information or they don't have the information, you've now blocked one of the economically most valuable things that your company possesses, which is this person's time, attention, talent. Not only that, you've also made them more frustrated and now they like are more likely to leave. Like if the—if the lifeblood of any company are the people inside of it who collectively commit to some kind of a goal and mission and work together, then like you want to maximize that potential. And, uh, creating this like really open information ecosystem is one of the ways that we do that. So often great phenomenal work that has happened at our company has not come from this one top-down mandate, but it's come from people understanding not just like what we're trying to accomplish top-down, but also having way more information, uh, at their disposal to be able to act on it. And so it's, you know, it's—people talk about top-down or bottoms-up culture, it's a bit of a myth in my opinion. Uh, if you've ever met Mark Zuckerberg, he is not a—it's not a bottoms-up thing. Like the ideas that we're pursuing are Mark Zuckerberg's ideas first and foremost. That's not that he's not open to new ones, and of course he is, and that's a form of bottoms-up—people can bring ideas to him and he internalizes them and acts them or not. But when he brings it—things top-down, he doesn't—he's not micromanaging. He's in the details, I'd be careful on that, but he does create the space for you to bring back three or four versions of the thing that he's talking about and then he shapes it from there. And you can't do that if there's—if you don't have degrees of freedom, sure, but also if you don't have the information. Otherwise, if you don't have the information available—what we're trying to accomplish, why we're trying to do it, what the—what infrastructure is like, what the availability—like what the performance is going to be like—well, you just are stuck. You're just gonna have to follow the script. That's very boring for high-talent, high—

创造力、高参与度的人——现在这确实要付出巨大代价。你必须非常擅长管理涌入的信息。大多数人和大多数公司会消费所有给他们的信息，但信息本身是被精心管理的，对吧？他们得到的是他们被允许得到的所有信息。我们把这一点颠倒过来了，听起来很棒，但并非没有代价。即使是外部来的高管，我也要指导他们的一件事就是：如何在所有噪音中找到信号？你必须有一套管理信息的系统。你必须有一套对涌入信息进行分类的系统——扔掉一堆来自错误渠道或对你无关紧要的东西，弄清楚哪些是你想加入的群组，但只在你选择时消费，以及哪些是你会收到推送通知的——那是实时的事情。这需要一些时间。

Creativity, high-engaged people—now it does come at a tremendous price. You have to get really good at managing information on the incoming. Most people and most companies consume all the information that's given to them, but the information itself is carefully managed, right? They're getting all the information they're intended to get. We've turned that on its head, and it sounds great, but it's not free. Even somebody senior coming from outside the company, one of the things I have to coach them on is: how do you find signal amongst all the noise? You have to have a system for managing your information. You have to have a system for triaging the incoming—getting rid of a bunch of stuff that is on the wrong channel or doesn't matter to you, figuring out what are the groups you want to be a part of but you consume only when you choose to, and where are the things where you're getting push notifications—that's the real-time thing. And that takes some time.

你提到的自下而上优先、自上而下的观点非常有趣，因为当我想到 Meta 时，我认为它是一种非常自下而上的文化。我听说每个人都会提出自己的想法，进行实验，非常鼓励尝试。听到你这么说真的很有趣，而且大多数大想法实际上确实来自高层，这很有道理。

This point you made about bottom-up first, top-down is really interesting because when I think of Meta, I think it's a very bottom-up culture. I hear everyone comes up with their ideas, runs experiments, it's very encouraged to just try stuff. And it's really interesting to hear that, and it makes a lot of sense that most of the big ideas actually do come from the top.

这有点——就像那些神话之一。我不认为作为一种构造它是错的。它比许多其他公司更自下而上，因为在这个构造内你确实有这些自由度。但别搞错：马克、我、克里斯·考克斯或哈维对公司应该做什么有非常强烈的意见。你的自下而上是在这个框架内运作的。但确实，你可以问马克任何问题，他都会回答——我也一样，克里斯也一样，哈维也一样。而且，我们当然会从与员工的讨论中汲取灵感。所以——我不知道——这并不像人们倾向于描绘的那样非黑即白。

It's a bit—it's just like one of these mythology things. I don't think it's wrong as a construct. It's more bottoms-up than many other companies because you do have these degrees of freedom within the construct. But make no mistake: Mark or me or Chris Cox or Javi have very strong opinions about what we should be doing as a company. And your bottoms-upness works within that framework. But it is true that you can ask Mark any question and he's going to answer it—same with me, same with Chris, same with Javi. And also, we certainly take inspiration from the discussions that we have with our employees. So it's—I don't know—it's just not as black and white as people tend to paint it.

我认为这里最大的教训之一是，至少要让人们感觉他们有很多发言权。即使一家公司非常——这是我们要走的重大战略支柱——你非常擅长让人们觉得他们可以产生影响并有发言权。

I think one of the biggest lessons here is making it at least feel like you have a lot of say. Even though a company is very—here's the big strategic pillars we're going—you're very good at making people feel like they can have an impact and have a say.

我能告诉你，最重要的事情就是给人们清晰的指导方针，让他们知道哪里有空间，哪里没有空间。我们和马克或我的团队和我一起进行这些评审时——我敢肯定——我会说，对于 UI 的这个部分，它会——我会画给你看——它会像这样。而另一个部分，我会说，酷，那也很重要，我没有清晰的愿景，你为什么不做呢？所以有非常清晰的护栏：好的，哪些地方我们只是执行任务，哪些地方我们有更多灵活性？

Can I tell you the most important thing is just giving people clear guidelines so they know where they have space and where they have no space. One of the things that we go in these reviews with Mark or my team with me—I'm sure—and I'm like, for this part of the UI, it is going—I will draw it for you—it's going to be like this. And this other part, I'm like, cool, that's important too, I don't have a clear vision of it, why don't you do it? So there's just really clear guardrails of: okay, where are we just on assignment and where do we have more flexibility?

有没有一个例子浮现在脑海中，你非常深入细节，画出屏幕，随着时间的推移？

Is there an example of that that comes to mind where you just like very in the details and drawing the screen over the over the course of time?

有很多例子。我认为早期我们在做动态消息时，马克绝对是在白板上画出团队必须放在前端和后端的每一个像素。他说，让它排名——有一些排名。所以我觉得我很幸运，因为我就像，酷，我在一些排名工作上全力以赴。而其他这些人——克里斯·考克斯和其他人——不得不真正像素匹配这些东西。但顺便说一句，并不总是这样。所以现在快进，我们谈论排名——并不是马克总是放手。当我们开始现代化我们的排名系统时，我们在过去五年里做了这件事，马克深度参与，比如，嘿，混合转变是什么，你如何权衡不同的东西？所以它可以双向进行。对我个人来说，我深入参与了一些相对深奥的事情。例如，我非常坚持手部追踪和混合现实要进入头显。并不是说团队中没有支持者——显然我们有一个现象级的手部追踪团队，混合现实团队——但有很多人不觉得这些功能对于成为主流设备至关重要。我一直相信它们对于易用性至关重要。所以我真的强行推进，没有给任何人任何余地，并设定了非常高的性能基准，以便我们在手部追踪上达到目标。团队告诉我这是不可能的，但并非如此——他们做得很好。

There's been quite a few examples. I think early on when we were working on News Feed, Mark was absolutely whiteboarding every single pixel that the team had to put on the front end and the back end. He was like, make it rank—have some ranking. So I felt like I was lucky there because I was just like, cool, I'm off to the races on some ranking stuff. And all these other guys—Chris Cox and all these other guys—are having to really pixel-match these things. But it's not always that way, by the way. So now fast forward and we're talking about ranking—it's not like Mark always hands off on that. When we got into modernizing our ranking systems, which we've done over the last five years, Mark was heavily involved, like, hey, what's the mix shift and how are you weighing different things? So it can go both ways. For me personally, I've gotten really involved in some relatively esoteric things. I was really adamant, for example, that hand tracking and mixed reality make it into the headset. It doesn't say that there weren't any supporters in the team—obviously we had a hand tracking team which is phenomenal, mixed reality team—but there were a lot of people who did not feel those features were going to be critical for this to become a mainstream device. I always believed that they were for ease of use. So I just really forced the issue and didn't give anyone any room and held really high standards for the performance benchmarks so we were going to hit on the hand tracking. And teams told me it was impossible, and it wasn't—they did great.

这触及了这个播客中经常出现的一个话题，关于创始人和高管应该多深入细节的争论——他们是应该授权、赋能，还是不行，我们就这么做，我会非常参与每一个模型。总是有这种起伏，就像，好吧酷，我们要让人们自由发挥，然后事情开始不那么顺利，然后酷，我们要收回控制权。你对于什么时候深入有意义，创始人和高管应该如何思考这个问题有什么看法？

This touches on something that comes up a lot on this podcast, and there's this debate between how in the weeds founders and execs should be—whether they delegate, empower versus no, we're just going to do it this way, I'm going to be very involved in every mock. And there's always this up and down that happens where it's like, okay cool, we're going to let people run and do their thing, and then things start to not work as well often, and then cool, we're going to take back control. You have just a perspective on when it makes sense to go deep, how founders and execs should think about that?

对创始人来说，这是一个多么无用的答案：这取决于杂草。有些杂草真的很重要，有些杂草真的不重要。我应该说明，这并不意味着它们完全不重要——你必须做它们——但它们不是成功或失败的关键。

Such a useless answer for founders: it depends on the weeds. There are some weeds that really matter and there are some weeds that really just don't. And I should say that doesn't mean they don't matter at all—you have to do them—but they aren't the hinge upon which success or failure will happen.

是的，就像我真正尊重的人——布莱恩·切斯基上过节目说，看，Airbnb 只会在我能做的事情上运作。就像那只是它将做的范围。这是一种超级极端的形式。我非常尊重他以及他们如何运作事情。

Yeah, like there's people I really respect—Brian Chesky's been on and said like, look, Airbnb is going to work only on the things that I can work on. Like it's just that's the extent of what it's going to do. And that's a super extreme form of it. I have a lot of respect for him and how they're working things.

我认为，如果你有伟大、超级有才华的人，你可以信任他们拥有更大的部分，那是一种选择。如果有办法构建它，以便你可以有效地检查并确保它按计划进行，那是另一种构建方式。而且 Airbnb 可能仍然有必须发生的工作——财务、会计和人力资源——布莱恩并不亲自管理。所以显然有非技术领域我们确实——是合法的——有些领域我们已经信任这正在发生。所以我认为很多创始人后悔授权太多，从我的对话中，我完全理解。或者他们授权了一些关键的东西，结果证明是最重要的。对我来说，判断是：你如何确定什么最重要？所以马克——我们在 Meta 内部至今开玩笑——我们称之为索伦之眼，当马克有——

I think that if you have great, super-talented people that you can trust who can own bigger pieces, that's one option. If there are ways to structure it so that you can check in effectively and make sure that it's on track, that's another way to structure it. And there probably is still work happening at Airbnb that has to happen—finance and accounting and HR—that Brian isn't personally managing. So there are clearly non-technical areas that we do—are legal—there are areas that we already do trust that this is happening at. And so I think a lot of founders regret delegating too much, from my conversations, and I totally get that. Or they delegated something critical that really turned out to be the most important thing. For me, the judgment is: how do you determine what matters the most? And so Mark—we joke inside of Meta to this day—we call it the eye of Sauron when Mark has—

他认定你正在做的事是最重要的事，就没有任何细节小到他会忽略。他会参加评审，在同一次评审里既说“从战略上我觉得我们跑偏了”，又说“这个像素肯定是错的，你得修”。范围很大。坦白说，我有点自夸，我自己大概也能做到同样的事。我认为和我共事的人经常评论说，我们的领导风格，我觉得 Chris Cox 也一样，就是在极其重要的事情上，我们会从高处一路看到低处。还有很多其他事情当然也重要，我们很高兴在做，但它们要么有相当清晰的路线图，要么行业里有相当清晰的范例，要么就是必须有但不会决定成败的功能。所以先做到大致像样，然后迭代就行。所以我觉得，这真的取决于杂草，你想钻多深。

Determined that the thing that you're working on is the most important thing, there is no detail too small for him to notice. He will be in a review and in the same review will be like, strategically I think we're off course, and also this one pixel is definitely wrong, you have to fix that. That's a big range. Frankly, I'll be a little bit self-congratulatory, I probably myself would be able to do the same. And I think people who work with me often comment that the style of leadership that we have, and I think Chris Cox is the same, is that we will go high to low on the things that matter a ton. There's a bunch of other things that certainly matter, like we're glad we're doing them, but either they have pretty clear roadmaps, pretty clear examples in the industry, or it's like that's a feature that you have to have but isn't going to determine success or failure. So getting it into rough shape and then iterating on it is fine. And so that, I think, it really does depend on the weeds, how deep you want to get.

太有意思了，我用的正是同一个比喻，我说“索伦之眼”，当我谈到在 Airbnb 做对 Brian 很重要的事情时。我给人们的建议是，在职业生涯中，你不想在索伦之眼里待太久，因为如果你一直做最重要的事，你会精疲力尽。但你想靠近它，你不想待在夏尔，但你想在它周围。

It's so funny, I use exactly that same metaphor, that I have Sauron, when I talk about working on things at Airbnb that matter a lot to Brian. And my advice to people is you don't want to be in that eye of Sauron for too long in your career because you're just going to burn out if you're working the most important thing all the time. But you want to be close, you don't want to be in the Shire, but you want to be like around that.

没错，两者都是。所以我在广告部门工作了很多年，从 2012 到 2017，我负责广告和商业平台，这个庞大的广告团队。那是一个当然非常重要的领域，但 Mark 有太多其他事情要处理，比如向移动端转型，他确实有点把事情委托给了我。那很棒，能得到他那种信任真是太酷了。同时你也一直很害怕，因为 Mark 不知道，万一这就是全部呢。我的下属也会担心，比如他们有一阵子没和 Mark 评审了，然后就像，是的，你在索伦之眼注视的强度下受苦，你也在它缺席的阴影下受苦。没有完美的地方。

That's right, there both. So I worked for years in ads from 2012 to 2017, I ran ads and business platform, this big ads group. And it was an area where certainly was very important, but Mark had so many other things going on with the transition to mobile, he did kind of delegate to me. And it was awesome, and it was so cool to have that kind of trust from him. And also you constantly terrified because like Mark does not know, like what if this is all, you know. And my leads be worried, like they just had a review with Mark in a while, and it's like, yeah, you suffer in the intensity of the gaze of Sauron, you also suffer in the shadow of its absence. There's no perfect place to be.

太搞笑了。我在想中土世界里哪个地方可以比喻那个。

That's hilarious. I'm trying to think of like the part of Middle Earth that has a metaphor for that.

是的，好。所以你谈到了 Newsfeed，那是你在 Facebook 最早的项目之一。我知道几个关于 Newsfeed 的有趣事实。一是它是所有社交网络中第一个这种算法信息流，也许是任何这类产品中的第一个。是的。二是它是 Facebook 里写的第一段 AI 代码，用来对实际的 Newsfeed 排序。所以有很多第一，显然这成了大事。Newsfeed 本质上就是现在人们想到 Facebook 时想到的东西。但它刚出来时超级有争议。人们非常反对，他们不想和人们分享这么多信息，至少他们以为如此。然后他们最终意识到，哦，这其实正是我想要的。你从经历这个过程中学到了什么——构建一个人们最初拒绝、后来意识到他们其实想要、这正是他们等待的东西？

Yeah, okay. So you talked about the newsfeed, which was one of your very earliest projects at Facebook. Here's a couple fun facts I know about the newsfeed. One is that it was the very first algorithmic news feed of its kind of any social network, and maybe of any sort of product like this. Yeah. And two is the very first AI code that was written in Facebook to rank the actual Newsfeed. So there were a lot of firsts, and clearly this became a huge deal. The newsfeed is essentially what people think of when they think of Facebook now. But it was super controversial when it came out. People were very against this, they did not want to be sharing this much information with people, or so they thought. And then they realized eventually, oh, this is actually exactly what I want. What did you learn from going through that experience of building something that people initially reject and then later realize that they actually do want this and this is exactly what they're waiting for?

这是你在采访中经常讲的一个故事，就是你必须对你正在构建的东西有信念。你在选择你的客户，就像你的客户在选择你一样，这是我有时思考的一种方式。你有时确实会看到初创公司犯的一个错误是，他们获得了一批早期用户，这些用户的需求实际上把他们带向了与更大市场正交的方向，于是他们有点被最早的客户绑架了。所以，我们一次又一次地，我们对我们认为这应该是什么样子有一个愿景，而它不是我们现在正在交付的东西。所以那些正在使用我们当前产品的人，我们不确定那个改变是他们想要的，但我们有信心随着时间他们会想要。我们并不总是对的，但在这些情况下我们是对的。Newsfeed 比人们猜想的更容易，因为每个人都在愤怒的同时立刻把产品使用量翻倍了。所以我们有一些优势，那就是字面上就像每个人都说，我太讨厌这个了，然后他们刷新、刷新、刷新。所以我们就像，好吧等等，这里有认知失调，在陈述偏好和经济学意义上的显示偏好之间。所以 Newsfeed 比人们猜想的更容易坚持。但人们有时误解了，他们以为教训是不要听客户的。不是这样，我们当然非常在意。即使在 Newsfeed 上，我们确实也搞砸了一些事情。我经常开这个玩笑，就像你在派对上，音乐很响，你在和某人说话，音乐正好在你说得超级大声的时候停了，于是派对上的每个人都听到了你最后说的话。你是在公共场合说的，所以不是私人评论，但你也不想用那种音量广播。我们对整个用户群做了类似的事，因为我们把原本是墙贴的东西——当然任何人都可以去那个个人资料看到——然后把它放到大庭广众之下，就像孩子们现在说的，放到 Main 上。然后有人就说，啊，你知道。所以我们做了那件事。我确实认为我们，我不想说我们搞砸了，就像这不是完美执行。所以另一件要知道的事是，你什么时候搞砸了小事，什么时候搞砸了大事？比如什么时候是事情本身错了，什么时候是细节错了？那是一门艺术，真正的艺术。你不总是有用户数据来判断，像我们那样。所以很多在于你是否有一个清晰的愿景和直觉，对你预期会发生什么，然后实际发生了什么，以及你能否诊断那个差异。所以在 Newsfeed 的案例中，我们犯了一堆小错误，事情本身是对的。我真的为我们做的工作感到相当自豪。你知道，我和 Chris Cox 在最核心，可能工程方面是 Richie S 作为 PM。之前没有排名信息流。我们确实有一些我之前为反垃圾、反东西构建的 AI，但相当初级。所以这可能是第一个消费者 AI，在那种网站上，对内容排名。我们建立了历史上最高效的变现界面，我想，除了搜索之外。对于那些好奇的人，我不用“变现”是因为我认为钱是最重要的。我确实认为它表明了你创造的经济力量，我确实认为这与人类效用强烈相关，尽管你

This is a story that you tell a lot actually in through your interviews, which is just like you have to have conviction in what you're building. You're choosing your customers as much as your customers are choosing you, is one way I think about it sometimes. And one mistake that you do see sometimes startups make is they get an early cohort of users whose needs actually take them kind of orthogonal to a larger market, and so they become kind of held hostage by their earliest customers. Now, so we've time and time again, we've had a vision for what we thought this should look like, and it wasn't the thing we were delivering right now. And so people who are using the thing we currently had, we're not sure that that change was what they wanted, but we had a confidence that over time they would. And we're not always right, but in these cases we were right. Now Newsfeed was an easier case than people suspect because everyone was outraged at the same time as they immediately doubled their usage of the product. So we had a few advantages there, which was it was literally like everyone was like, I hate this so much, and they would refresh, refresh, refresh. And so we like, okay wait, this is a, there's cognitive dissonance here between what the stated preferences and what the revealed preferences are in the economic sense. So Newsfeed was a little easier than people suspect to stick with. But people sometimes misunderstand that, they think oh the lesson is don't listen to your customers. Not about, and we certainly care tremendous about. And even with Newsfeed we did actually screw some things up. I kind of always make this joke that it's almost like you know you're at the party and music's loud, you're talking to somebody and the music cuts out right when you're saying something at a super high volume, and so everyone in the party hears the last thing you said. Now you were saying in a public place so it wasn't like it was a private comment, but you also didn't mean to broadcast it at that volume. We kind of did that to the entire user base because we took what had been wall posts, which sure anybody could have gone to that profile and seen, and then put it kind of on blast like on Main, you know, as the kids say these days, put it on Main. And someone's like, ah, you know. So we did that. I do think we, like I don't want to say like we did screw things up, like it wasn't like oh this is a flawless execution. So another thing to know is like when did you screw something small up and when did you screw something big up? Like when is the thing itself wrong versus when were the details wrong? That is an art, that is a real art. And you don't always have user data to determine it, like we did. And so a lot of that is do you have a clear vision and intuition for what you expected to happen and then what happened instead, and can you diagnose that delta. So in the newsfeed case we made a bunch of little mistakes, the thing itself was right. And I really am quite proud of the work we did there. You know, me and Chris Cox at the most core, probably the engineering side, Richie S as the PM. Like there was no ranked feeds before that. We did have some AI that I built before for the anti-spam, anti-things, but it was pretty rudimentary. So it was probably the first consumer AI that was in a website of that kind, rank content. And we built like the most efficient monetizing surface in history outside of search, I think. And for those who were curious, I don't use monetization because I think money is the most important thing. I do think it suggests the economic power you've created, which I do think correlates very strongly with human utility, although you

我知道，显然我尊重有些人可能不同意，从经济效用的角度来说。News Feed 和广告的负责人这个维恩图创造了上万亿美元的价值。所以干得好。这可不是小事。不是小事。我们为那项工作感到骄傲。

I know obviously I respect that some people may disagree in terms of the economic utility. The Venn diagram of the boss of News Feed and ads created a trillion dollars of value. So well done. It's not nothing. Not nothing. We're proud of that work.

你在关于 News Feed 的一篇帖子里有这句话，你说它比生活中任何东西都更彻底地占据了我。它向我揭示了一个真相：当你对某件事充满热情时，你会做得更好，做得更聪明，效率会高出一个数量级。这无可替代。

You have this quote in one of your posts about the News Feed where you said it consumed me more fully than anything in life had ever consumed me. It opened up to me the truth that when you're passionate about something, you do better work, you do smarter work, and you're an order of magnitude more productive. There's no substitute for it.

其实，自从那篇帖子之后，我对自己有了一点认识，就是我这个人天生就容易对事情充满热情。这是一种天赋，我很幸运拥有它，我也明白不是每个人都有。所以广告这件事就是个好例子。当马克让我去做广告时，我说不，我不想做，我觉得我对那没热情。我对自己有一个很强的身份认同，觉得自己是个 AI 基础设施产品人，我就在这个领域工作。结果不，我错了。我就是个一旦投入就会兴奋起来的人。等我进入广告领域，哦，这太迷人了。这是一个三边市场，有各种不同的……感觉就像我在下棋，和行业里其他玩家博弈，我超级兴奋。后来他想让我做硬件，我说不，我不是……我是个软件人，我是个软件人，马克。结果不，我爱这份工作。我就是觉得……那是个太迷人的领域了。我是说，我学到了太多。所以我确实认为那是对的。我确实认为当我找到自己热爱的事情时，那很好。我从那以后学到的是，给自己空间去理解我是否能对它产生热情。当然，我以前做过的一些工作里，有些部分我始终找不到热情，六个月后我就得走人。真的……要么我辞职，要么被解雇，因为我做得不好，我不在乎那份工作。所以我有自知之明。并不是我能对任何事都产生热情，但事实证明我的兴趣面还挺宽的。

One thing I've learned about myself since that post actually is just the degree to which I am somebody who is inclined to be passionate about things. That's a gift that I'm very lucky to have, and I understand that's not every person. And so actually the ad thing is a good example. When Mark told me to go work on ads, I was like, no, I don't want to. I don't think I have a passion for that. I had this idea of myself, a very strong identity of myself as this AI infrastructure product guy, and I was like working in this space. And nope, I was wrong. I'm just a guy who gets excited about things. Once I got into ads, oh, this is fascinating. It's a three-sided marketplace and there's all these different... it felt like I was playing chess times in terms of the moves with the other players in the industry, and I was super pumped about that. And then when he wanted me to work on hardware, I was like, no, I'm not... I'm a software guy, I'm a software guy, Mark. And no, I love this work. I just like... that's such a fascinating space. I mean, I've learned so much. So I do think that's right. I do think when I find something I'm passionate about, that's good. What I have learned since then is to give myself the space to understand if I can get passionate about it. Now there are parts of jobs that I've had before where I just never found the passion, and after six months I just have to move on. I literally... it's like I'll either quit, get fired, like I'm doing bad work, I don't care about the work. And so I do have a self-awareness. It's not something I can get passionate about anything, but I do have a pretty broad palette, it turns out.

我觉得这是一个非常有趣的职业教训：不要假设你不会对某件可能出现的事情感到兴奋。这方面你有什么想和大家分享的吗，比如去探索它，给它六个月，看看你能不能对它产生热情？

I think that's a really interesting career lesson of don't assume you won't be excited about something that may come up. Is there anything there that you'd share with folks of just like explore it, give it six months, see if you can get excited about it?

当然。我的职业轨迹在某些方面非常不寻常，就是很长一段时间里我几乎每六个月就换一次工作。比如，你知道，我一开始做诚信相关的东西，同时兼顾 News Feed，然后我做了一年 News Feed，接着我做诚信、站点速度和基础设施，比如检测垃圾信息和问题，然后我做新人训练营，再然后我做消息和群组。就像我……你知道，有件很好笑的事，我常开玩笑说，对于年纪够大、记得《龙威小子》的人来说，我感觉自己刷了很多篱笆、打了很多车蜡，到最后我学会了空手道。你知道，到最后我得到了回报，因为我经历了这些，我遇到了很多人，我在这些不同领域工作过，我理解了不同的动态。而我同期加入的人都在升职，但他们是在单一路径上。他们待在一个地方就升职了，而我不停地换。可能在我职业生涯早期某个时候，我觉得自己相对同龄人走得更慢。然后当我终于迎来转折，真正靠广告那个岗位，我做了五年，我就垂直起飞了。我的职业就像垂直上升。从那以后我就一直在这条轨迹上。所以我最常给别人的建议，至少我从中学到的教训，就是我只是愿意积极地学习。我会换岗，是因为我学得不够。我无聊了，所以我没有学到足够的新东西。而最终进入广告岗位的妙处，以及我现在这份工作的妙处，就是那些工作我学了五年，我在那些岗位上从未停止学习。你偶尔会找到那种非常深入、可以一直学下去的工作。与此同时，我很多朋友，他们的职业早期轨迹比我好，他们真的对自己做的事感到无聊了，但他们没有地方可跳。就像没有别的……他们成了某个领域的专家，而那个领域对他们自己来说已经枯竭了。也许他们甚至因为舒适或因为公司需要而待得比想待的更久，结果在职业生涯中期反而成了他们的阻碍。所以对我来说，就是不要……跳进新事物，给它六个月。如果不是那件事，没问题。你只是积累了一大堆新技能，那会派上用场的，我向你保证。继续前进。同样，当你做出那次跳跃时，那是职业早期，要优化学习，优化……想想复利。就像复利的前十年看起来并不惊人。十年之后它才开始好看。

Absolutely. So I have a very unusual career arc in some ways, which is like I really almost changed jobs every six months for a long time. Like, you know, I was working on this integrity stuff, News Feed in the background, then I was working on News Feed for about a year, then I worked on integrity, site speed and infrastructure, and like detecting saves and issues, and then I worked on boot camp, and then I worked on messaging and groups. And it's like I just... you know, I had this really funny thing. I always kind of joke it was like, for those who are old enough to remember Karate Kid, I felt like I was painting a lot of fences, waxing a lot of cars, and at the end I knew karate. You know, like at the end I had the payoff because I'd gone through and I'd met a lot of people, I'd worked in these different areas, and I understood different dynamics. Well, other people who joined in my cohort were getting promoted, but they were like in a single track. Like they just stayed in one place and they got promoted, whereas I kept moving around. And probably at some point early in my career felt like I was moving more slowly relative to my peers. And then when I finally turned the corner, really with the ads appointment, which I did for five years, I went vertical. I just like my career went vertical. I was kind of... since then I've kind of been on that trajectory. And so advice I most often give people, that this for me at least the lesson that I take from this, is just like I just was willing to learn aggressively. I would move because I wasn't learning enough. I was bored and so I wasn't like learning enough new stuff. And what was cool about finally getting into the ads job, and likewise in the job I'm in now, is like those jobs I learned a ton for five years. I never stopped learning in those jobs. You will occasionally find those jobs where they're super deep and you can just keep learning. Meanwhile, a lot of my friends whose careers were on a better trajectory than me earlier, they literally got bored of what they were doing, but they didn't like have any place to jump to. Like there wasn't like some other... they'd become domain specialists in a domain that they'd kind of exhausted for themselves. And maybe they even stuck around longer than they wanted to because it was comfortable or because the company wanted them to, and it ended up kind of being a hindrance to them in the middle of their career. And so for me it's like, don't be... jump into new things, give it six months. If it's not the thing, no problem. Like you just built a ton of new skills that's going to come in handy, I promise you that. Keep going. And likewise, when you do make that jump, that's early career, optimize for learning, optimize for like think about a compound interest. Like it's like the first like 10 years of compound interest don't look that impressive. It's like after 10 years it starts to look good.

我喜欢这个建议。这和我一直给的建议类似。多样化的经验往往最终成为你随着时间积累的最有价值的东西，就是尝试一堆东西，做一些内部工具，也许做客户支持，我不知道，信任与安全、面向用户的产品、基础设施。我是从产品经理的角度想，也许还有工程师和其他职能。顺着这条线问一个问题，我们谈到了索伦之眼，以及在公司最重要的事情上工作。关于你应该把职业生涯的多少时间花在那个中心，你有什么建议吗？

I love that advice. It's similar advice I always give. A variety of experience often ends up being the most valuable thing you build over time, just trying a bunch of stuff, doing some internal tools, maybe working on customer support, I don't know, trust and safety, user-facing products, infrastructure. I'm thinking from a PM's perspective, maybe an engineer's and other functions. One question along the line, so we talked about the Eye of Sauron and working on like the most important thing at the company. Do you have any advice on how much of your career you should be working in that center?

是的，听着，在一切条件相同的情况下，我认为有两个非常好的位置。一个是在公司没太关注但你知道很重要的领域里扛很多水。而且得扛很多。你真的得……你得拥有那些东西，真的要在那里移山，因为我向你保证，作为高管，当有一座巨大的水坝挡住洪水时，你会极其尊重那个撑住水坝的人。就像你会说，你知道，继续撑着吧，阿特拉斯。那边的工作干得好。第二个，争取成为……或者也许同样好，就是在最重要的事情上。而在最重要的事情上，这就引出了埃里克·施密特给谢丽尔·桑德伯格的那条建议，就是，嘿，这是一艘火箭飞船，上去。别问我在哪个座位，上去就行。如果它是最重要的事，你会分到更小的一块。每个人都想成为……

Yeah, listen, all that's being equal, I think there's two really good places to be. I think one is carrying a lot of water in areas that the company's not paying attention to but you know are important. And it needs to be a lot. Like you really got to... you got to own that stuff and like really move mountains over there because I promise you as an executive, when there's a huge dam holding up the flood waters, you respect the heck out of the person who is holding that dam up. Like you're like, you know, you keep doing that, Atlas. Like that is good work over there. The second, be... fight to be, or maybe this equally be, is like on the most important thing. And on the most important thing, that's where you get like to the advice that Eric Schmidt gave Sheryl Sandberg, which is like, hey, it's a rocket ship, get on. Like don't ask what seat I'm in, like just get on. If it's the most important thing, you're going to get a smaller piece. Everyone wants to be...

选那个你能碾压、搞定、做得非常出色并能从中成长的项目，因为你会获得极高的曝光度，会积累大量经验，会看到在火中是什么样子。这是无价的。你会在任何地方都用得上。所以我说这是在项目选择时。但现在我要谨慎一点：要明白，从火中开始的项目，但愿能锻造成某种金属，冷却下来，不再在火中。同样，像挡住洪水的大坝，也有开裂、崩塌或被洪水冲垮的倾向。所以我认为你在选择时确实想处于这两种位置之一，但之后你也要坚持到底。再次回到我的观点：如果你不投入，如果你没有做出色的工作，如果你不爱它，那就继续前进。如果你已经耗尽它，你曾经爱它但现在不爱了，那就继续前进。如果你仍然爱它并且投入，那很好，这很棒。你值得在熔炉和大坝之间来回转换。你不必总是跳上最新的火。

Get the piece that you can crush, kill, do a great job at, and grow from, because you're gonna get a ton of visibility, you're gonna get a ton of experience, you're gonna see what it looks like in the fire. That is invaluable. You will use that everywhere. So I say that's at project selection time. But now I want to be cautious: understand projects that start in the fire hopefully are forged into some manner of metal that cools and is no longer in the fire, like God willing. Likewise, things like dams that are holding up flood waters have a tendency to crack or break or floods overcome them. So I think you do want to be at selection time in one of those two places, but then you also gotta stick with the ride. And again, to my point: if you're not engaged, if you aren't doing great work, if you don't love it, then move on. If you've exhausted it, you used to love it but you don't anymore, move on. If you still love it and you're engaged, great, that's cool. That's a great thing. You deserve to go from the forge to the dam and back over time. You don't have to always just keep jumping onto the latest fire.

在广告之后，我曾尝试过一次。2012 年，我花了六个月时间，我们打造了第一个移动广告产品，某种程度上拯救了当时已经相当惨淡的 IPO。我告诉马克，这太有趣了，也许你可以一直这样做，每六个月就把我放到最大的火上。他转向我说：‘那不是一份真正的工作。’他说：‘我需要你留在这里，推动这件事向前。’接下来的四年半里，我确实这么做了。那太棒了。那太棒了。再说一次，我确实给了他这样的——有趣的是，我会因此受到责难——我既是马克最大的批评者之一，也是他最大的粉丝之一。我同时扮演这两个角色。但今天我们要谈论的是我认为马克真正展现得很好的东西。他在我的职业生涯中做得很好，把我推向我以为自己无法成功的地方，他看到了机会并使之成为现实。

I tried to do that once after the ad. So I spent six months and we built the first mobile ad product in 2012 and kind of saved the IPO, which had gotten pretty grim at that point. And I told Mark, I was like, this is so fun, maybe you can just keep doing this, just put me on the biggest fire every six months. And he turns to me and said, 'That's not a real job.' He's like, 'I need you to stay here and usher this forward,' which I did for the next four and a half years. And it was amazing. It was amazing. And again, I do give him such—it's funny, I'm gonna get a hard time with this—I'm one of Mark's biggest critics as well as being one of his biggest fans. I have both those jobs. But today we're talking about stuff that I think Mark really demonstrates really well. And he did a great job of pushing me in my career to different places where I didn't think I could succeed, and he saw the opportunity and made it happen.

关于给马克负面批评，你学到了什么？他接受什么？你对此有什么心得？

What have you learned about giving Mark negative criticism? Anything that he accepts? What have you learned about that?

马克对信息和所有观点都如饥似渴。有一件相当有趣的事——我之前谈到过，作为创始人，尤其是，你必须要有巨大的信念。你必须要有。你必须要有极大的自信。我认为马克可能是意志力最强的人，纯粹从意志力角度来说。所以关于马克的一件有趣的事是，你给他反馈，他会听。他不是——他是一个很好相处的老板。所以你给他反馈，他会真正倾听。他大多数时候会告诉你你错了，为什么错了。大多数时候就是这样。然后会发生的是，这很不可思议。就像在接下来的一两周里，你会看到变化。我不认为他是在潜意识里做——你知道，我总是开玩笑说，信息传到他那里，每天有那么多信息传到他那里，然后晚上他就像用所有信息重新编译整个世界，然后回来。顺便说一句，这不仅适用于产品工作。我脑子里想的是产品方面的事，比如你说：‘嘿，我觉得这个产品这里做错了。’他说：‘不，不，这就是为什么它不是那样。’然后产品会发布。同样，如果你只是就他在会议中的表现或表达方式给他反馈，他会说：‘哦，好吧，这就是我为什么那样做。’然后几周后，你会处于类似的情况，他会调整他展现的方式。所以我实际上发现他是一个——给他反馈真的很令人满意。它真的有效。非常有效。但你必须从长远来看。而且他会有——他做的事情不是偶然的。他会有理由解释为什么他那样做。这是‘坚定观点，灵活持有’的一个很好的例子。

Mark's voracious for all information and all points of view. One of the things that's pretty interesting—I talked earlier about how much as a founder, I think especially, you have to have tremendous conviction. You just have to. You have to have a tremendous degree of confidence. And I think Mark is somebody who is like, maybe the strongest willpower of a person I've ever met, just in a pure willpower sense. So one interesting thing about Mark is you'll give him feedback, he listens. He's not—he's a very kind person to work for. So you'll give him feedback and he'll listen truly. He'll most often tell you that you're wrong, why you're wrong. That's just like most often. And what will happen is it's uncanny. It's like over the course of the next week or two, you'll just see shifts. And I don't think he's like doing it sub—you know, I've always kind of joked like the information gets to him, so much information every day it gets to him, and then like at night he like recompiles the whole world with all that information and comes back. And by the way, this is not just true about product work. In my head, I was thinking about product stuff where you're like, 'Hey, I think this product is doing this wrong.' He's like, 'No, no, that's why it's not that way.' And the product will ship. Also, if you give him feedback just on his own presence in a meeting or delivery, he'll be like, 'Oh well, here's why I did it that way.' And then like a couple weeks later, you'll be in a similar situation and he will moderate like how he shows up. So I actually find him somebody—it's really satisfying to give him feedback. It really works. It's very effective. But you do have to like take the long view on it. And he will have—he will have the things he did, he didn't do on accident. He will have a reason why he did them the way he did them. It's a great example of strong opinions loosely held.

这是‘坚定观点，灵活持有’的一个很好的例子。

It's a great example of strong opinions loosely held.

是的，没错。这也让我想到——我想用编译器的类比。我在想就像模型训练，他就像在一夜之间重新训练他的模型。

Yeah, that's right. It also makes me think—I think use the compiler analogy. I'm thinking like the model training, like he's retraining his model overnight.

有趣的是——关于马克，有一件非常有趣的事是，如果你早上给他一些反馈，他接下来的六场会议，无论是否关于那个产品，他都会问人们怎么看待那个反馈。他不会指明——他就像：‘嘿，你觉得这个产品这个想法怎么样？’所以你会和他一起开会，你会看到他在这么做。他会和你开关于其他话题的会议。你会说：‘嘿，老板，你觉得这个产品这个想法怎么样？’所以他会在一整天里把那个小笔记拿出来，进行压力测试，因为他喜欢三角验证——所有可能没看到的观点在哪里。所以他真的重视对每个讨论事项的广泛视角，这很有趣。

It's funny—one of the things that's so funny about Mark is he, if you give him some feedback in the morning, the next like six meetings he has, whether it's about that product or not, he will ask people what they think of that feedback. He won't attribute—he's just like, 'Hey, what do you think about this in this product?' And so you'll be in a meeting with him and you'll see him doing it. He'll come to the meeting with you about some other topic. You're like, 'Hey boss, what do you think about this product in this idea?' And so he will like over the course of the day take that little note and kind of pressure test it because he loves to triangulate—what is, where are all the points of view on this that maybe didn't see. So it really values a broad perspective on each thing that's being discussed, which is pretty fun.

试图为他的模型获取更多训练数据。我明白。我不在这里——你不能让我把马克称为语言模型。那不公平。那是——我们都希望像马克一样聪明。

Trying to get more training data for his model. I get it. I'm not here—you can't get me to call Mark an LM. That's not fair. That's—we could all hope to be as smart as Mark.

你说话的时候，我注意到你的纹身，这让我想起至少我知道你有两个纹身。是的，一个是加利福尼亚，我完全理解——加利福尼亚是一个非常特别的地方。我们还有另一个纹身，就是‘veritas’这个词。你能谈谈那是什么，以及为什么它对你很重要吗？

As you were talking, I noticed your tattoos and it reminded me that you've got at least two tattoos that I'm aware of. Yeah, one is of California, which I completely understand—California is a very special place. We have this other tattoo that is just the words 'veritas'. Can you talk about what that's about and why that's important to you?

总的来说，关于纹身的有趣之处是，我高中毕业时就像——我不知道我的——我不知道是否有我的原型，但我 21 岁才开始喝酒。我是一个非常遵守规则的人。我当时想：‘你为什么要纹身？你知道，像人们那样影响你的身体？你为什么要染发？就让它保持原样吧。’其中一些是——我认为我是一个有特权的人，对自己是谁、想成为什么有极大的自信，这没问题。但也有一些是奇怪地对别人评头论足，这对我来说有点不符合品牌，当然今天不会，但当时，纹身对我来说是件大事，因为我想：‘哦，这就像我生活的载体，你可以对它做任何你想做的事，它没有——它不是——你知道，它是你拥有的东西，你可以，如果你觉得，如果你想装饰它，你可以装饰它。’所以纹身对我来说实际上是一件大事。我完全改变了我对身体、对他人身体以及当时存在的看法，也许在某种程度上甚至像对——的理解。

The funny thing about the tattoos in general is I came out of high school as like—I don't know what my—I don't know if there was an archetype for me, but I didn't drink till I was 21. I was a very rule-following person. I was like, 'Why are you gonna get a tattoo? You know, like affect your body like people do? Why you dye your hair? Just like let it be what it was.' And some of this was like—I think I had was a somebody who was privileged and had a great deal of self-confidence in who I was and what I wanted to be and was fine. But some was also like weirdly judgy about other people in a way that's kind of off-brand for me, certainly today, but at the time, getting a tattoo was a big deal for me because I was like, 'Oh, like this is just like the vehicle for my life and like you can do whatever you want with it and it doesn't have—it's not like a—you know, it's something that you possess and you can, if you feel like, if you want to decorate it, you can decorate it.' And so getting a tattoo was a big deal to me actually. And I kind of completely shifted my mindset of how I thought about my body and how I thought about people's bodies and the presence in the time, maybe to some degree even like an understanding of—

死亡嘛，就像，嘿，这就像，生不带来死不带去。一切都会消失。18岁的时候你觉得自己会永远活下去，等到了22岁，一个饱经风霜的22岁老兵，你就会想，啊，把那玩意儿纹上去吧，反正一切都会完蛋。所以是的，我纹了veritas，拉丁语里是‘真理’的意思。我得说这有点俗气，因为它也是哈佛的校训。但我用的是等宽字体纹的，你知道，就是程序员用的那种字体。关于纹身另一件让我觉得有趣的事是，它也是代际变迁的一部分。我们成长的那个年代，纹身在成年人眼里就是帮派、飞车党、水手或者某些特定类型的人才干的事。现在，据我所知——我最近看到一个统计数据，我这一代人里有纹身的人比没有纹身的还多。所以我觉得我们也在文化上转变了立场，这种方式让我觉得——我觉得自我表达的丰富性是美妙的。我真的觉得这很棒，所以我完全支持这一切。

Mortality, like, hey, this is like, can't take it with you. It's all gonna go. When you're 18 you think you're gonna live forever, and by the time you're 22, a grizzled 22-year-old veteran, you're like, ah, tattoo that bad boy up, it's all going down. So yeah, I got the veritas tattoo, which is Latin for truth. I will say it's a little cheesy because it's also Harvard's motto. But I got it in a monotype font, you know, the programmer's font here. The other thing that's interesting to me about tattoos was it's also part of a generational shift. We grew up in a time when tattoos were really seen by adults as, you know, gangs or bikers or sailors or certain types. Now, my understanding — I saw a stat recently that more people in my generation have tattoos than don't have tattoos. And so I think we also just culturally shifted positions in a way that I find — I find richness of self-expression wonderful. I really think it's great, and so I'm here for all of it.

根据你的描述，我的理解是，真实这个概念对你的思考和工作方式非常重要。

My assumption from what you're describing is this idea of truth is very important to the way you think and work.

恐怕在这一点上，我的名声确实先于我了。我觉得年轻的时候，我把诚实——顺便说一句，我当时错了——我把诚实当成了一种免死金牌。就好像只要你是诚实的，你想说什么都行。根本不是那么回事。我以前读过这方面的东西，但到目前为止，我职业生涯中最大的遗憾就是我不够善良。我以前觉得——我很久以前写过一篇叫《善良》的笔记——觉得对人好，那就是居高临下，或者跟人说半真半假的话，或者就是敷衍了事，我反对那样。但善良不是那样的。善良是，嘿，我怎么能以一种真正有成效、有帮助的方式给出这个反馈，以一种能帮到他们、而不是让他们只感到难过和无助的方式？我觉得我年轻时在这方面做错了很多。所以诚实仍然是我性格中很大的一部分。认识我的人没人会指责我不诚实，我觉得人们理解并尊重我相当直接。如果我有顾虑或问题，我会提出来。我只是现在更擅长提出来，并表达出真正的关心和信任。就像，如果我不认为我们能做得更好，如果我不认为我们能解决它，如果我不相信这个情况，我就不会提出来。所以诚实仍然是我身份中很大的一部分，我觉得这是我非常自豪的一点。但我要说，自从我纹了这个纹身之后，我如何诚实的语境化已经发生了巨大的变化。

My reputation does precede me on this point, I'm afraid. I think when I was young I saw being honest — and I was wrong, by the way — I saw being honest as kind of a get-out-of-jail-free card. Like you could say whatever you wanted as long as you're being honest. That's just not the case at all. I've read about this before, but by far my biggest professional regrets were me not being kind. I used to think — I wrote this note a while back called 'Be Kind' — where being nice, that's like patronizing or telling somebody things that are half-truths or just like getting by, and I'm against that. But being kind isn't that. Being kind is like, hey, how can I deliver this feedback in a way that is actually productive and helpful, in a way that is going to help them and not cause them just to feel bad and helpless? And I think I did that wrong a lot as a young man. So being honest is still a big part of my personality. No one would ever accuse me of being dishonest who knows me, and I think people understand and respect that I'm pretty direct. If I have concerns or issues, I'm going to bring them up. I'm just much better at bringing them up now and expressing a true care and belief. Like, I wouldn't bring it up if I didn't think we could do better, if I didn't think we could fix it, if I didn't believe in the situation. So being honest is still a huge part of my identity, and I think that's something I'm very proud of. But I will say the contextualization of how I'm honest has changed immensely since I got this tattoo.

这听起来很合理。这正好触及了我一直很想聊的一个话题，那就是你最经典的作品之一，也是我最初认识你的方式，那篇文章叫《沟通就是工作》。我知道很多人都读过，也有很多人没读过。我很想请你谈谈这意味着什么，为什么这很重要，为什么这是你想要分享的东西。

That seems reasonable. This touches a little bit on something I definitely wanted to talk about, which is one of your most classic pieces, and this is the way I first learned about you, a piece that is called 'Communication Is the Job.' I know many people have read this, many people haven't. I'd love for you to just talk about what this means and why this is important, why this is something that you wanted to share.

是的，这是其中一件事——尤其如果你有志成为领导者。领导力不是管理，领导力也不是唯一负责的那个人，它并不总是等同于问责。但如果你想对你周围的世界产生影响，那只能通过创造作品或言语表达来影响他人。仅此而已。如果你想产生影响，如果你想创造某种持久的改变——它可能发生在你小小的关系中，可能在你的团队里，可能在你的公司里，也可能在世界上——这一切都归结于沟通。你经常听到有人说，哦对，我早就有了，我一年前就写出来了。是啊，但你一年前写得不好，否则我们就不会白白浪费一年没去做。人们总是觉得，哦，我有那个想法，这就意味着什么。它什么都不意味着，绝对什么都不意味着。或者，哦，我写了这个帖子。好吧，你没有靠它突破，那是你的问题，不是受众的问题。人们总想怪受众。受众就在那儿而已。所以我之前就提到过这点，我希望大家注意到了，我说，嘿，如果我给某人一项工作，他们六个月后回来做错了事，我会认栽。我会为此认栽。这对他们来说不太好，他们会气自己浪费了时间，但就像我说的，那是我的责任。我没有清楚地传达我想要什么、期望是什么。他们本可以自己帮自己吗？当然可以，这是需要各方共同努力的事。我们应该从两个角度来解决这个问题。我还有一篇帖子叫《倾听就是工作》，讲的是这件事的另一面。但《沟通就是工作》——我真的相信它和来自美国海军陆战队和海豹突击队的‘极端所有权’理念是一脉相承的，就是说，每当出了什么问题，我会问自己，在沟通方式上我本可以怎么做才能让事情进展得更好。我本可以更好地设定优先级吗？我本可以更好地设定期望吗？我是否需要给团队指向一个更好的指标？我是不是放错了人？顺便说一句，我常说的一个观点是，组织架构图是沟通工具。它们并不真实存在。你和你的经理之间并没有一根实体的线连着。它们只是沟通工具，本意是让人们大致了解事情是如何组织的、该找谁。所以所有这些事情都是沟通。沉默也是沟通。我没有主动联系你、关心你、关心你的项目——对，我们之前聊过这个，前面提到的‘沙林毒气的如果’——那意味着什么？那意味着信任，那意味着责任。也就是说，不检查跟进本身是有含义的。你不可能不沟通。你总是在用你的表情、你的衣着、你的身体传达着什么。你在传达什么？我给你们举个好笑的例子，我希望这能放进播客里，因为如果你在看视频版，你会注意到我的摄像头不停地自动调整光线。它总是要么太暗要么太亮。我在试一个新摄像头。我是个技术宅。我试过很多摄像设备，试过很多麦克风设备。我喜欢拥有最新的小玩意儿，所以我在尝试新东西。它不好使。我脑子里在想，这传达出关于我的什么信息？人们会觉得我不在乎，或者觉得我不够专业。所以就这么一点——这就是我在说的。

Yeah, it's one of the things that — especially if you aspire to be a leader. Leadership isn't management, and leadership isn't being the only person responsible, it's not always the same as accountability. But if you want to have an impact on the world around you, it is exclusively done through the creation of artifacts or verbalizations that affect other humans. That's all there is. If you want to have an impact, if you want to create some kind of lasting change — and it could be in your little relationship, it could be in your team, it could be in your company, it could be in the world — it is down to communication. And so often you hear people saying like, oh yeah, I had that, I wrote that up a year ago. It's like, yeah, but you did a bad job of writing a year ago, or we would have not wasted a year not doing it. People always think it's, oh, I had that idea, and that means anything. It means nothing, it means absolutely nothing. Or it's like, oh, I wrote this post. Well, you didn't break through with it, so that's on you, it's not on the audience. People want to blame the audience. Well, the audience is just there. And so I mentioned this even earlier, and I hope people caught it, when I said, hey, if somebody — I give somebody a piece of work and they come back six months later and they have done the wrong thing, I'll take the L. I will take the L on it. It's not great for them, they'll be pissed they wasted their time, but like I said, that's my responsibility. I did not communicate clearly what I wanted, what the expectations were. Could they have also helped themselves? Sure they could have, and that's a thing that takes all sides. We should work on this problem from both angles. I have another post called 'Listening Is the Job,' which is the other side of this. But 'Communication Is the Job' — I really believe it actually is a relationship to this idea that came out of the US Marines and the SEALs of extreme ownership, which is like, so whenever something goes wrong, it's like, I asked myself what could I have done differently in terms of how I communicated things for this to have gone better. Could I have set priorities better? Could I have set expectations better? Did I need to have a better metric that I pointed the team at? Did I put the wrong people on? By the way, the thing I talk about is org charts are communication devices. They don't exist. There's not a physical string between you and your manager. They're just communication tools that are supposed to give people a rough sense of how things are organized and where to go with who. And so all these things are communication. Silence is communication. Me not reaching out to you to check on you, to check on your project — right, we talked about this, the 'if' of sarin earlier — what does that mean? That means trust, that means responsibility. Like, the absence of check-ins has meaning. You cannot not communicate. You are always communicating something with your face, with your clothes, with your body. What are you communicating? I'll give you a funny example, which I hope we get to put in the podcast, because if you're watching this on video, you will have noticed that my camera cannot stop adjusting light. It's just constantly too dark or too bright. I'm trying a new camera. I'm a nerdy guy. I tried a lot of camera gear, I tried a lot of microphone gear. I love to have all the latest gadgets and gizmos, so I'm trying something new. It's not working. And in my head I'm like, what is this communicating about me? People are gonna think that I don't care, or that I'm not competent. So just a little — that's what I'm talking about.

我觉得有必要在播客里解释一下，这样我就能清楚地说明事实并非如此。我在职业生涯中努力做的很多事情，就是理解他人的心智模型——他们现在在哪里？我指的是具体的人，比如我的经理或关键的技术负责人；也指一般的人，比如团队；还指广义上的普通人。他们在这场对话中处于什么位置？我该如何精心设计我的语言、我的存在感、我的形象，一切，来引导他们从他们所在的地方，到达我想让他们去的地方？这要求我非常清楚我想让他们去哪里，也非常清楚他们在哪里。我想告诉你，这并不像听起来那么费劲。没有人会指责我有一个精心编造的巨大形象——不是那样的。但这就像对人们起步的地方抱有极大的同理心。那对我来说是飞跃。其余的一切——我在会议上的表现，试着多微笑，因为我块头大、看起来吓人——那些都是小事情，你努力去做，它们就成了第二天性，很容易。难的是对受众抱有同理心，想着他们在哪里？他们从哪里开始？而当你没有为此承担责任——为此承担极端的责任时。

I felt compelled to explain it in the podcast so I can communicate clearly that that's not the case. So much of what I try to do in my professional life is understand the mental model of other people—where are they right now? And I mean specific people like my managers or my key technical leaders, and I mean general people like teams, and I mean broadly like just the average human. Where are they at in this conversation? And how can I craft my language, my presence, my persona, everything, to usher them from where they are to where I want to get them? That requires me to have a very clear idea of where I want to get them and a clear idea of where they are. And I want to tell you, it's not as much work as it sounds. No one would accuse me of having this big fabricated persona—it's not that. But it is like having tremendous empathy for where people are starting. That was the leap for me. All the rest of it—how I show up in meetings and trying to smile more because I'm like a big scary guy—those things are little things that you work on, and they become second nature and they're easy. The hard thing is just having the empathy for your audience and being like, where are they? Where are they starting? And when you miss taking responsibility for that—extreme responsibility for that.

这里面有太多好的建议了。有太多线索我想追下去，但我们还是接着最后这一点，试着理解如何最好地与某人沟通。有没有一个例子，能让大家更真切地感受到你做了什么——比如，哦，我要这样和这个人沟通？

There's so much good advice in that. There are so many threads I want to follow, but let's just follow this last one of trying to understand how someone is best communicated to. Is there an example to make that a little more real for people of just what you've done to—like, oh here's—I'm going to communicate with this person?

我给你举几个例子。一个是多模态。有句老话说得好：重复不会糟蹋祈祷。我认为大多数有经验的沟通者——无论是作家还是公众演讲者——都会谈到多次、以不同方式重申一个观点的重要性，以确保人们有机会内化它。你想直接说出来，你想用隐喻。所以对我来说，我会开一次全员大会，然后写一篇包含全员大会内容的帖子，因为不同的人对这些模态的反应不同，在这些不同模态上吸收信息的速度也不同。这是个微不足道的例子。另一个我经常想到的是，确保你回应人们的恐惧和担忧。如果人们认为你不知道发生了什么，他们就不会听你的。所以当我们在讨论某个问题时，我最喜欢做的一件事就是一开始就说：嘿，让我说清楚，这就是我们面临的问题。我知道我们面临这个问题。我知道这很重要。然后我会说同样的话，但否则他们会直接忽略我，因为他们会想，如果他们不接受前提，怎么能相信我的结论？你明白我的意思吗？所以我觉得这里面有一整套东西。显然，当面交流要容易得多，因为你可以读取面部表情。即使在这个节目上，对吧，我看到你在点头，就像，好的，他懂了，他跟上了。然后我会加上一句，你明白我的意思吗？而如果你歪着头，我就会再举一个例子，试图把观点讲透。

I'll give you a couple. One is multimodality. There's an old saying, right? Repetition never spoiled the prayer. And I think most experienced communicators—whether they be writers, whether they be public speakers—talk about the importance of reiterating a point several times and in several different ways to make sure that people have a chance to internalize it. You want to say it directly, you want to use metaphor. So for me, it's like I will give an all-hands and then write a post with the content of the all-hands because different people are going to respond differently to these modalities and are going to absorb information at different rates on these different modalities. That's a trivial one. Another one that I think of all the time is making sure that you address people's fears and concerns. People will not listen to you if they think you don't know what's going on. So one of my favorite things to do when we're talking about some kind of issue is right up top say, hey, let me be clear: this is the issue we're having. I know we're having it. I know it matters. And then I'll say the same thing that I would have said, but they would have literally ignored me because they're like, how can they trust my conclusions if they don't accept the premise? You know what I'm saying? So I think there's a whole piece there. Obviously when you're in person it's a lot easier because you're reading facial expressions. Even on this, right, I'm reading you nodding on that, like okay, he's got it, he's with me. And then I throw in, you know what I mean? Whereas if you were kind of like giving me a cocked head, I then bring a second example to try to drive the point home.

大多数人现实中在职业生涯初期都是试图影响一两个人。你就是从那里开始的——一两个人。那就是你要沟通的对象：你的经理，一个队友。那就是你拥有的。然后你不断积累、积累、积累一套技能，以便在越来越大的规模上做到这一点。

Most people are going to realistically start in their careers trying to influence one or two people. That's where you start—one or two people. That's who you've got to communicate with: your manager, one teammate. That's who you've got. And then you build up and build up and build up a skill set to do it at larger and larger scale.

我非常喜欢这些建议。我觉得这对人际关系也有帮助。这是你感到不满的地方。完全理解。这是我认为我们可以做的。

I love so much of this advice. I think it's also helpful for relationships. Here's what you're upset about. Totally. Here's what I think we can do.

在 Meta，我有幸得到慷慨支持来做自我提升的工作，有伟大的导师——谢丽尔·桑德伯格、马克·扎克伯格，还有很多人——以及教练，这绝对让我成为了我妻子更好的伴侣和丈夫。然后，顺便说一句，反过来也一样。有了孩子并深入研究育儿文献——顺便恭喜你——深入研究那些文献让我成为了更好的管理者。绝对让我成为了更好的管理者，在思考人们如何管理情绪以及如何在那些时刻与他们互动方面。

Being a—the work that I've had so graciously supported to do on myself at Meta with great mentors—Sheryl Sandberg, Mark Zuckerberg, a bunch of others—and coaches absolutely made me a better partner and husband to my wife. And then, by the way, vice versa. Having kids and getting deep in the literature around raising children—congratulations to you, by the way—getting deep in that literature made me a better manager. Absolutely made me a better manager in terms of thinking about how people are managing their emotions and how to engage with them in those times.

太棒了。我们需要这个老板育儿建议的第二版。

Amazing. We need a second edition of this boss's parenting advice.

没错。还有人际关系。就像所有好东西。你知道，《没有坏孩子》，兰斯伯里，《内心善良》，贝基博士——所有这些——我真的认为现代育儿经典非常丰富。

That's right. And relationship. It's like it's all the good stuff. You know, No Bad Kids, Lansbury, Good Inside, Dr. Becky—it's all—I really think the modern parenting canon is really rich.

太棒了。这么多好内容。

Amazing. So much good content.

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好的，你提到了这个小工具和你喜欢玩的这些摄像头。我们来聊聊 Vision Pro 和 VR 头显吧。你试过 Vision Pro 吗？有什么想法？

Okay, you mentioned this gadget and these cameras you like to play with. Let's talk about the Vision Pro and VR headsets. Have you tried the Vision Pro? Thoughts?

其实，Mark和我一起试过。首先我想说，当头显发布时，我们稍微松了一口气，因为里面的东西并不代表根本性的突破。所以并不是——里面的所有东西并不是我们可能做不到的，除了Apple silicon，那真是个奇迹。但值得知道的是，Apple silicon在做像扩展显示分辨率这样的事情时，就像是2倍的奇迹，但不幸的是，分辨率扩展是一个二次方命题。所以，当你试图扩展分辨率时，2倍的线性扩展优势并不像你预期的那样有用。所以那是第一步。然后，但我们仍然假设在那个价位上，你知道，凭借他们传奇般的注重细节和打磨，他们可能会生产出一个伟大的产品。一周前我在我自己的播客上和Matthew Ball说的那句话是，看，我准备来到市场说我们有最好的价值头显，就像如果你想要物超所值的最佳头显，我们有，就是Quest 3。当我和Mark一起试了Apple Vision Pro时，我太激动了。我们就像，不不不，我们实际上认为我们现在有真正最好的头显。我们不是说它在所有方面都最好。如果你坐着不动，看高分辨率电影，是的，Apple Vision Pro真的很棒。分辨率闪耀，他们调校的透视效果闪耀，如果你静止并直视前方。他们在UI上做了一些非常不错的事情。嗯，我有点——这是我们作为产品人有时会烦恼的事情之一，这发生在我们所有人身上，发生在Apple身上，发生在Google身上，发生在我们身上。我们有一堆内部东西一直在玩，它们会在某个时候发布，然后我们会被指责偷了它们，而实际上——你没有偷。如果你愿意，你可以去看我在Quora上关于点赞按钮历史的回答，那里之前发生过这种事，我们在内部构建了点赞按钮，然后它才在其他地方推出。总之，整个事情。所以这在我们行业经常发生，我真的不应该那么在意。这是我的一点自尊心在作祟，如果我负责任的话，我应该控制并压制它。但是的，所以美丽的UI打磨，他们在眼动追踪上做得非常出色。眼动追踪有趣的一点是，要像他们那样做，这就是为什么你必须要有处方插入镜片。所以它不支持你的眼镜。你必须获得处方插入镜片。它们有点贵。它们可以透过镜片以及周围的光线拍摄追踪你眼睛的摄像头。我们的在Quest Pro上是从侧面来的，这允许你戴矫正镜片。所以像这样的不同选择有取舍。但它仍然很酷。他们能把它放进去很棒。同时，我们的手部追踪更好。显然，应用库我们知道会更好。这对他们不完全公平。他们刚刚推出，量还小。但我就是觉得舒适度——最让我受不了的是，Apple Vision Pro的视场角真的很小。有些人在网上错误地描述它。他们是在靠近镜片的地方描述。一旦你把眼距，也就是镜片和眼球之间的距离考虑进去，他们的视场角对几乎所有脸型来说都相对我们的变得相当窄，我觉得这很分心。他们的显示器比我们的暗得多，在混合现实使用场景中，我发现运动模糊真的很分心。正如我在播客前面提到的，我是个超级混合现实爱好者。就像我超级喜欢那个潜力，原因和他们完全一样，顺便说一句，我认为手部和混合现实让它对更多人来说更容易接触。不过我很高兴我们的套装里有控制器，因为它真的扩展了你能做的事情。你知道，我们不只是像用键盘和鼠标那样用一个东西操作电脑。我们一直使用多种模式。所以我真的觉得舒适度、没有持久性和运动模糊，以及我们的透视、我们显示器的亮度——我就像，哦天哪，如果你给我一个让我拿走，我会拿Quest 3。现在人们正确地说那是个相当有偏见的决定。当然是。去形成你自己的意见。但最让我受不了的是大多数人没有这样做。他们没有试过Quest 3。那是最让我受不了的。如果你去试Quest 3，问问自己你是否宁愿有七个这样的，一个给你和六个你最好的朋友，还是一个Apple Vision Pro。我确信答案对每个人来说不都是Quest 3。有些人的使用场景真的适合他们的生活与Apple Vision Pro。我对此没意见。但人们甚至不知道Quest 3——你可以做远程桌面，你知道，你可以通过一个非常流行的叫Remote Desktop的应用来做，或者你可以进入Workrooms，你可以有三个显示器围绕你，从你的机器流式传输。就像——所以我认为有些只是人们甚至没有做过功课。他们甚至没有试过。所以我欢迎所有认为我有偏见的人去证明你的想法，但不要在没戴上Quest 3并充分测试它的情况下这样做，因为它是个相当棒的设备。而且你可以用额外的3000美元做很多事情。

Actually, Mark and I tried it together. And I want to say first of all, when the headset came out, we breathed a little sigh of relief because the stuff inside of it didn't represent a fundamental breakthrough. So there wasn't — everything inside of it wasn't that we probably could have gone and done, with the exception of Apple silicon, which is a marvel. But it's worth knowing Apple silicon is like a 2X marvel when doing things like scaling display resolution is unfortunately a quadratic proposition. And so a 2X linear scaling advantage doesn't buy you as much as you might expect when you're trying to scale resolution. And so that was step one. And then, but we still assumed at that price point, you know, with their legendary attention to detail and polish, they probably would produce a great product. And the line that I said actually on my own podcast with Matthew Ball a week ago was like, look, I was prepared to come to the market and say we have the best value headset, like if you want outstanding best possible headset for the money, we've got it, it's the Quest 3. And I was so thrilled when I tried the Apple Vision Pro next to Mark. We were like, no no no, we actually think we have the actual best headset now. We're not saying it's the best at all things. If you're sitting still and watching a movie in high-res, yep, Apple Vision Pro is really great. It's really great that the resolution shines, the way they've tuned the pass-through shines if you're stationary and looking straight ahead. And they've done some really nice things with the UI. Um, I'm a little bit — it's one of these things that we do get annoyed about a mile — the side we get a little bit annoyed about as product people, and that this happens to all of us, happens to Apple, happens to Google, happens to us. We have a bunch of internal things we've been playing with which will at some point ship, and we will be accused of having stolen them when we actually — you did not steal. If you want, you can go see my Quora answer on the history of the like button where this happened previously, where we had built the like button internally before it was launched elsewhere. Anyways, so whole thing. So this happens in our industry a lot and I really shouldn't care as much. It's a little bit of my ego peeking through which I should control and tamp down if I'm being responsible. But yeah, so the beautiful UI polishes, they did a tremendous job with eye tracking. One of the things that's interesting about the eye tracking is to do it the way they've done it, that's why you have to have the prescription inserts. So it doesn't support your glasses. You have to get prescription inserts. They're kind of expensive. And they can shoot the cameras that track your eyes through the lens as well as the light around it. Ours go from the side on the Quest Pro, and that allows you to wear corrective lenses. And so different choices like that have trade-offs. But it's still cool. It's great that they got that in there. At the same time, our hand tracking is better. Obviously, the app library we knew was going to be better. That's not totally fair to them. They've just launched and they have small volume still. But I just find the comfort — the thing that really got me the most, the field of view is really small on the Apple Vision Pro. And some people are characterizing it incorrectly on the internet. They're doing a characterization up close to the lens. Once you factor in the eye relief, the distance between where the lenses are and where your eyeball is, their field of view gets pretty narrow for almost all faces relative to ours, which I find distracting. Their displays are much dimmer than ours, and I find the motion blur really distracting when I'm in mixed reality use cases. And as I mentioned earlier in the podcast, I'm a huge mixed reality buff. Like I'm a huge fan of that potential for exactly the same reason that they are, by the way, which I think hands and mixed reality make it feel much more accessible to more people. I'm pretty glad we have the controller in our set though, because it really expands what you can do. And you know, we don't just like operate our computers with just like one thing with keyboard and we have a mouse. Like we do multiple modalities all the time. So I really feel like the comfort, the lack of persistence and motion blur, and our pass-through, the brightness of our displays — I was like, oh man, like if you gave me one to take, I would take Quest 3. Now people have rightly said that's a pretty biased decision. Of course it is. Go get your own opinion. But what kills me is most people haven't done that. They have not tried the Quest 3. That's what kills me the most. If you go and try Quest 3, ask yourself if you'd rather have seven of those, one for you and six of your best friends, or one Apple Vision Pro. I'm sure the answer isn't Quest 3 for every person. There are people for whom there are use cases that really fit their life with Apple Vision Pro. I'm cool with that. But people don't even know that the Quest 3 — you can do remote desktop, you know, you can do it both through an app called Remote Desktop which is very popular, or you can go into Workrooms and you can have three monitors surrounding you, streamed from your machine. It's like — so I think some of this is just like people have not even done the work. They haven't even tried it. So I welcome all of you who think I am biased to prove one way or the other what you think, but don't do it without putting the Quest 3 on and giving it through its paces, because it's a pretty great device. And you can do a lot with $3,000 extra dollars.

顺便问一下，他们是怎么做到这一点的？

How did they get away with that, by the way?

我们推出了一款头戴设备，价格大概是1,499 美元，结果大家都疯了。他们说，啊，3500美元，没事，这没问题，没人在乎。我也不知道。但公平这东西要求太高了，我不在乎这个。Apple 打造出了了不起的品牌，这是他们应得的。真的。我觉得这非常了不起。我当然也很赞赏 Apple 的大量产品。我是他们作品的超级粉丝。我是超级粉丝——可能正因为这样，我才对 Apple Vision Pro 抱有更高的期待。

We launched a headset that was like $1,499 and people lost their minds about it. And they're like, ah, $3,500, it's fine. This is fine. No one cares. I don't know. But fairness is too much to ask and I don't care about that. Apple has earned the great brand they've built. They truly have. I think it's tremendous. And I certainly celebrate a large number of Apple products. I'm a huge fan of their work. I'm a huge fan of — with a dup, that's probably why I expected more from the Apple Vision Pro.

好吧，我给你看看我最喜欢的 AR 设备，就是这副我 actually 买的雷朋眼镜。是的，我们——来，我戴上。来，我要——我要做的是，我要录——我没告诉你我要这么做——我要在我们聊天的时候录下来。看这个。

Well, I'll show you my favorite AR device, which is these Ray-Ban glasses I actually bought. Yeah, we — here, I'll put them on. Here, I'm gonna — what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna record — I didn't tell you I was going to do this — I'm gonna record this as we're talking. Look at this.

我喜欢。你戴起来也很好看。很合适。我岳母——你看起来很有品味。你戴这个看起来很聪明。

I like that. They look so good on you too. This is a good fit. My mother-in-law — like you look so sophisticated. You looked really smart with these on.

我们买这些其实是为了看——拍我们的孩子，或者我们的孩子，而不是——

And we bought these actually to watch — to film our kids, to like — or our kid to like, instead —

摄像头对着他的脸，这太棒了。真的是最好的。盯着手机屏幕，而真实的东西就在你眼前，这太难了。就像不，玻璃才是正确的方式。看这个，我的新造型，一直戴着眼镜。我们得给你弄个多模态的。我自从十二月就开始玩了，你可以用摄像头问我们的 Meta AI 助手关于事情。它真的很好。我最近和家人一起在一个滑雪村，我戴着它们。我就说，嘿，你看看你看到了什么。然后我找到了一个标志，它给了我方向，比如，嘿，洗手间在右边那些楼梯下面。如果你想找吃的，就在右边。它没法告诉我我在哪个村，但它说，你在某个滑雪村，这是设施。我当时就想，哇，这里真的有神奇的东西。

Having a camera in his face and it's been awesome. It's really the best. It is so hard to look at a phone screen and have the real thing be like in between you. It's like no, the glass is the way to do it. Look at this, my new look, have glasses on all time. We got to get you the multimodal. I gotta, I've been playing that since December where you can use the camera to ask our Meta AI assistant about things. It's really good. I was in a ski village recently with my family and I had them on. I just like, hey, you know, take a look to what you see. And it like, I had found a sign and it gave me directions like, hey, the bathrooms are down those stairs to the right. Like if you want food, it's over to the right. It couldn't tell what village I was in, but it was like, you're in a ski village somewhere, like here's the amenities. And I was like, wow, you know, there's something real magical here.

我觉得我需要这个来做播客采访，这样我就能有个小声音告诉我该问什么问题，以及我在哪里。完全正确，那会……我在这件事上要作弊一下，说我们显然已经讨论了一段时间关于玩具有完整 AR 能力的眼镜，我们有一个传闻即将内部推出，传闻如此之多，以至于你甚至可以说它几乎已经被确认了。而真正有趣的是能够玩这些真正的时间机器，就它们本身而言，这是惊人的技术。是的，人们在发表演讲，比如大型公司范围内的演讲，他们把所有的笔记都放在眼镜上，他们可以用手势控制幻灯片。哦，所以有令人兴奋的事情即将发生，功能看起来相当光明。

I feel like I need this for my podcasting interviews so I could just have little voice tell me like questions to be asked and where I'm at right totally that be I'm I'm gonna cheat on this one and uh and say we got uh we have obviously we've been talking for a while about playing with glasses that have uh full AR capabilities and we've got one that is rumored to be coming internally soon so heavily rumored in fact uh that you might even say it's it's almost been confirmed and uh what's been what's been really fun is is being able to play with these really time machines really in terms of what they are that it's amazing amazing technology and yeah people were uh giving a speeches like big companywide speeches and had all their notes on the glasses and they could control this the slides uh just using a a gesture oh so there's there's there's there's exciting things a foot it's the feature is looking pretty bright

我想谈的一点是，当马克发布那个整个视频，说这是我对 Apple Vision Pro 与 Quest 的看法时。很多人就说，哦天哪，因为他发布了这个视频，他一定很害怕正在发生的事情，但这不是正确的举动。这背后的思考是什么？有战略思考吗？还是只是他像这样，这就是我的想法？

Something that I wanted to touch on which is when Mark put out this whole video of here's what I think of Apple Vision Pro versus the quest. A lot of people are just like oh man because he's putting out this video he must be so afraid of what's happening and it's like it's not the right move. What went into the thinking? Was there like strategic thinking? Was it just him like here's what I think?

你知道，这种现代时代的做法真要命。每个人都觉得一切都有深意。一切都像四维象棋。那只是马克对这件事的想法。他就是那么想的。你知道，我想他想确保人们记住，嘿，Quest 3 确实是一个更好的设备，而人们甚至还没试过。所以，你知道，我们并不总是在这里下四维象棋。有时我们只是说，这是我相信是真的，我要用我的嘴大声说出来。就像我们做的那样。那并不难。我想，我猜人们，你知道，当我这样做时，每个人都期待，因为我的角色或品牌。我猜当 CEO 这样做时，人们会惊讶。好吧，我明白。那很酷。有其他的社会期望。就像我们都熟悉，比如苹果在《纽约时报》上投放欢迎 IBM 的广告，然后 Slack 对微软做了同样的事情，还有那个 balber iPhone 的评论。那些都不是对产品技术优点的真正讨论，对吧？那些都只是像大型的，你知道，鼓舞士气的姿态。这不是那个。我们有，我们就像，马克很深入，他是这方面的专家。我是这方面的专家。我对我们的选择感觉很好。顺便说一句，当我使用它时，我可以完全进入设计它的人的头脑，我可以告诉你从使用中他们得到了什么指示，那个团队得到了什么指示。我可以告诉你他们在优化什么。我可以告诉你他们受到什么约束，通过他们所做的所有选择。我可以告诉你所有这些事情，我理解它在那方面是连贯的。我们做了不同的选择。我们更喜欢我们的选择，这不应该让任何人惊讶。我们可以做出那些选择，我们没有做出那些选择，我们做了这些其他选择。所以对我来说，就像重量，电线总是擦过我的耳朵，像可放进口袋的东西，我明白，这不是我会做的，我不知道，因为我有机会做，我选择不做。所以就像，我不知道，我不知道为什么人们会惊讶。但是的，所以我认为这不是什么大的精明战略举动。这只是马克有机会使用它，他说哦天哪，我想我们应该告诉人们真实的故事，我们做到了。

You know, this kind of does murder me about the modern era. Everyone's in there met ahead about everything. Everything's like a four-dimensional chess. That was just what Mark thought of the thing. That's what he thought about it. You know, I think he wanted to make sure people remembered, hey, Quest 3 is literally a better device and you haven't even, people haven't even tried it. And so there, you know, we're not always playing four-dimensional chess over here. Sometimes we're just like, here's a thing that I believe is true, I'm going to say it out loud with my mouth. Like, that's what we did. That's not that hard. Like, and I think, I guess people, you know, when I do it, everyone expects it because of my persona or brand. What is, I guess people are surprised when the CEO does it. All right, I get that. That's cool. There's like other sets of societal expectations there. And like, we're all familiar with like, you know, Apple putting the welcome IBM ad in the New York Times and then Slack doing the same thing with Microsoft and like the balber iPhone comments. None of those were true discussions of the technical merits of a product, right? Those were all just like big, you know, rally the troops like gestures. This is not that. Like we have, we're like, Mark is deep, he's an expert in this stuff. I'm an expert in this stuff. Like I feel great about our choices. I, by the way, when I use it, I could get myself completely into the head of the person who designed it and what I, I can tell you from using it what instructions they were given, that team was given. I can tell you what they were optimizing for. I can tell you what constraints they were under by all the choices they made. I can tell you all those things and I understand it coheres in that way. We made different choices. It shouldn't surprise anyone we like our choices better. Like we could have made those choices, we didn't make those choices, we made these other choices. And so for me, like the weight, the wire which just always brushes against my ear, like the pocketable thing, like I get it, it's not what I would have done and didn't know that because I had the chance to do it and I chose not to. So it's like, I don't know, I don't know why people are surprised. But yeah, so I think this was not like this wasn't some big savvy strategic move. This was just like Mark's like got a chance to use it, he's like oh man, like I think we should tell people what the real story is here and we did.

我喜欢这个见解，我知道很多观众会想，哦，他是对的，哇，我没想到这一点，所以我认为它产生了很大影响。我想稍微拉远一点，谈谈 Meta 过去几年的旅程。感觉公众对 Meta 的看法和股价经历了巨大的下滑，然后在过去几年里有了巨大的转变，感觉总是有很多东西可以从这些时期学习。举个例子，股价，我刚看了一下，它跌到了 80 左右，现在今天是 487 美元。是的，我很好奇你从经历那次下滑和转变中学到了什么，我知道这仍在进行中，但你从那段旅程中学到了什么？

I love that insight and I know a lot of people watching are like oh he's right wow I didn't think of it that way and so I think it had a lot of that impact I want to zo out a little bit and talk about meta's Journey over the past couple years it feels like there was a a huge downturn in public perception of meta and the stock price and then over the past couple years there's been a huge turnaround and it feels like there's always a lot to learn from these periods so just as an example of the stock price I was just looking at it it was down to 80ish and now today it's $487 yeah I'm curious just what you've learned from going through that downturn and turn around and I know it's still in progress but just what what have you learned from that Journey

是的，有很多可以吸取的。我得告诉你，我想我们经历了历史上最大的单日股价跌幅，18 个月后又经历了股市历史上最大的单日涨幅。哦天哪，正如传奇人物卢·霍尔茨所说，你赢的时候从来不像他们说的那么好，你输的时候也从来不像他们说的那么差。马克总是提出这句话来指导我们内部，试图让自己稍微免受外部意见变幻的影响。这不仅适用于股价，也适用于媒体和新闻界，适用于很多事情。我告诉我的团队的一件事，我仍然必须重复给他们，就是当你身处其中时很难记住，你比批评者知道得更多，你比市场上的分析师知道得更多，你比媒体知道得更多，你比播客知道得更多，你比推特知道得更多，你比他们更了解我们公司什么是真实和有价值的。这并不意味着忽视他们，因为他们有不同的视角，你需要理解它，即使整体上比你知道的少，它可能包含你不知道的部分。所以我是一个超级粉丝，我阅读对一切的批评，我非常仔细地阅读，注意确认偏误，注意我可能倾向于抵制但可能是真实的事情。我邀请

Yeah well there's a lot to take away I got to tell you we I think we had the single largest the largest single day stock drop in history followed 18 months later by the largest single day gain in stock market history oh my God as the legendary Lou Holtz uh said you know you're never as good as they say you are when you're winning and they're never as bad as they say you are when you're losing Mark has has always um always brought that quote out to guide us internally to try to insulate ourselves a little bit from the vagaries of external opinion and that's not just true with stock prices that's true with media and press it's it's it's true across a lot of things one of the things I told told my team and I I still have to repeat it to them it's like one it's hard to remember when you're in it is that you know more than the critics do you know more than the analysts in the marketplace do you know more than the media does you know more than the podcasters do you know more than the Twitter does you know more about what's real and substantial of value about our company than they do that doesn't mean ignore them because they have a different perspective and you need to understand it and it may contain even if the totality is less than what you know it may contain parts that you do not know so I'm a huge fan I read the criticism of everything and I read it very carefully looking out for confirmation bias looking out for things that uh I might be inclined to resist but are maybe true I invite

我接受批评，但我也不会盲目接受。我不会只说“是的，这显然是对的”。有一个很棒的概念叫“吉尔·曼宁失忆症”，每个人都应该理解。它的意思是，当你读一篇关于你专业领域的报纸文章时，你会感到困惑，因为这篇文章不只是错了，而是因果倒置。这就是迈克尔·克莱顿所说的“湿人行道导致下雨”的故事。你会想，这故事真糟糕、真离奇。然后你翻到下一页，读另一篇关于你一无所知的话题的文章，你会把它当作绝对真理来读。你会告诉朋友，看看这个关于外国局势的信息，完全正确。我们应该比这更聪明。所以，这意味着你不读它吗？不，你读，但你读每件事都带着这样的视角：等等，这是另一种观点。我如何把它整合成一个完整的视角，以便我能了解情况？所以第一个宏观层面是采取长期视角，认识到当你处于低谷时，情况没有你想的那么糟；当你处于顶峰时，情况也没有你想的那么好。任何时候都介于两者之间。

I accept critique, but I also don't accept it blindly. I don't just say, yes, this is obviously true. There's a great concept called Gil Manning Amnesia that everyone should understand. It's this property where you'll read a newspaper article—let's say about a topic you're an expert in—and you'll be baffled because the article isn't just wrong, it's inverted causality. It's what Michael Crichton called a 'wet sidewalks make rain' story. You'll think, what a terrible, bizarre story. Then you turn the page and read another article about a topic you know nothing about, and you'll read it as if it's the gospel truth. You'll tell your friends, look at this information about this foreign situation, it's perfectly true. We should be smarter than that. So does that mean you don't read it? No, you read it, but you read everything with the perspective of: wait a second, this is another point of view. How do I integrate that into a whole perspective so I can be informed? So the first macro thing is taking the long view, realizing that when you're in the dumps, it's not as bad as you think, and when you're at the top, it's not as good as you think. It's somewhere in between at all times.

第二点是，沟通就是工作。我们确实没有就未来的投资与市场进行有效沟通。听着，我们有两个长达 10 年的巨大投资领域：一个是 AI，一个是实验室。AI 今天看起来相当不错——我想我们都同意，有了 Llama 2、FAIR，我们取得的突破。人们不知道这一点，但 FAIR，我们的人工智能研究实验室，是 AI 领域被引用次数第二多的研究实验室，仅次于谷歌。所以我们一直在做这项工作；我们不是随便来的。我们一直在做，所以这看起来相当不错。我认为我们之前没有足够地向人们解释这些赌注。核心业务足够强劲，以至于他们愿意忽略它们。沃伦·巴菲特有句老话：只有当潮水退去时，我们才知道谁没穿泳裤。所以当潮水退去时——当乌克兰战争、利率上升和经济衰退发生时——现在每个人都在争夺那增量美元，他们说，摆脱这些东西。我们不得不告诉公司：你不想在一家遇到困难时就扼杀所有未来增长、只支撑核心业务的公司工作。那是一家只是承诺在某个时候死亡的公司，比预期晚一点，但还是在某个时候死亡。你想在一家拥有平衡投资组合的公司工作，而我们就有。我们没有很好地解释这一点，所以我们花时间向市场、媒体、所有人解释。现在，随着人们理解其规模和范围，当然核心业务克服了挑战也有帮助，情况看起来相当不错。所以是的，我认为一部分是，作为内部人士，真正调节你对外部叙事和波动的依附——这非常重要，你基于了解自己的专业知识来做到这一点。第二部分是理解为什么存在差异，是什么，并抓住它。通常是沟通问题。

The second thing is communication is the job. We really did not communicate effectively with the market around our future investments. Listen, we've had two 10-year long huge investment areas: one has been AI, one has been labs. AI is looking pretty good today—I think we can all agree, with Llama 2, with FAIR, the breakthroughs we've had. People don't know this, but FAIR, our AI research lab, is the second most cited research lab in AI behind Google. So we've been doing this work; we didn't come here casually. We've been doing it, and so that's looking pretty good. I don't think we did enough to explain those bets to people previously. The core business was going strong enough that they were willing to ignore them. And what's the old Warren Buffett quote? It's only when the tide goes out that we see who's not wearing swimming trunks. So when the tide went out—when you have the Ukraine war, an interest rate hike, and recession—now everyone's scrambling for that incremental dollar and they're like, get rid of this stuff. And we had to tell the company: you don't want to work at a company that, when times are tough, kills all future growth and just shores up the core business. That's a company that's just committing itself to dying at some point, a little later than expected, but dying at some point. You want to work at a company that has a balanced portfolio of investments, which we had. We didn't explain that well, and so we spent that time explaining that to the market, to the press, to everybody. And now, as people understand the size and scope of it, and of course it helps that the core business has overcome its challenges, it's looking pretty good. So yeah, I think one part is, as an internal person, really moderating your attachment to external narratives and swings—that's super important, and you do that based on understanding your own expertise. The second part is understanding why there's a delta, what is there, and grab that. It's usually communication.

还有一个组织的大规模扁平化。这是很多人谈论过的事情，经理们变成了个人贡献者。关于如何调整组织以提高效率，你还有什么更多的学习吗？

There's also a big flattening of the org. This was something a lot of people talked about, where managers became ICs. Is there anything more there that you've learned of just how to adjust the org to be more efficient?

是的，当然，我本应该把这一点包括在第一部分。我有点急于用两点优雅地总结，但你说得对。我们确实在运营业务的方式上做出了重大转变，这非常痛苦。听着，这要追溯到 COVID 的繁荣时期，当时看起来电子商务和远程工作等领域出现了真正的持久性世俗转变，而这些工具集——正是我们所构建的——它让我们准备好了，我们建立了一支庞大的劳动力队伍来追求这些机会。我们仍然相信这些机会，但它们很小——它们回到了原来的时间线。实际上，如果你看看我们内部的一堆图表， literally 就是 COVID 繁荣，然后随着它消退，一切都回到了原来的轨迹。所以我们没有失去阵地或失去时间，但提前拉动没有发生。嗯，这意味着你的许多经济模型不再合理。现在你做了很多投资，这些投资将在遥远的未来产生收益，更快地到达那里不会帮助你，而且你背负着很多额外成本。那很糟糕，伙计。很糟糕，我们对此感觉不好。我们真的感觉不好。这是一门生意；很糟糕，而且会发生。

Yeah, of course, and I should have included that in the first section. I was a bit eager to wrap it up elegantly in the two, but you're right. We did make significant shifts in how we operated the business, which is super painful. Listen, this goes back to the boom times of COVID when it looked like there was a real lasting secular shift in things like e-commerce and working remotely, and these toolsets—which are exactly what we build—and it primed us, and we built up a huge workforce to pursue those opportunities. We still believe in those opportunities, but they're little—they're back on their original timeline. And actually, literally, if you look at a bunch of graphs that we have internally, it's literally the COVID boom and then as it receded, everything's back on its original trajectory. So we didn't lose ground or lose time, but the pull forward didn't happen. Well, that means much of your economics don't make any sense anymore. Now you made a bunch of investments that are going to yield in the distant future, and getting there faster isn't going to help you, and you're carrying much extra cost. That sucks, man. It sucks, and we don't feel great about it. We really don't. And it's a business; it's awful, and it happens.

我确实认为，那个时候有趣的一点是，对于我们这些亲身经历过繁荣与萧条的人来说。我在硅谷出生和长大，所以当我高中毕业、上大学时，这一切都在我身边，然后是 2008 年的大衰退、房地产崩盘、市场，所有这些东西。现在想象一下，你在 2009 年大学毕业并找到工作。好吧，15 年的职业生涯后，你可能已经是总监，却从未见过经济低迷。所以我认为，除了业务中非常不幸的常规误判导致我们过度招聘并不得不纠正之外，你还有一支劳动力队伍，他们完全没有这种心态：这可能会发生。这感觉像是天灾，而实际上这是所有企业的周期性本质，这会在某个时候发生，你希望它不会，你希望它没有，但你必须应对它。所以我认为整个行业经历了一场艰难的风暴，我们仍然感受到它。我认为我们仍然感受到它。当然，我们在 Meta 很高兴已经超越了那个阶段，我们再次增长，以稳定的速度执行，感觉非常好。但行业中其他不少公司还没有，对于工程师、产品经理、设计师、每个人以及他们周围的所有支持职能来说，这是一个非常不确定的时期。所以我非常同情。

I do think one thing that was interesting about that time was for those of us who grew up and saw doom and boom firsthand. I was born and raised in the valley, so that was all around me when I was graduating high school, going to college, and then the 2008 major recession, the housing crash, the market, all that stuff. Now let's imagine you graduated college in 2009 and got a job. Well, shoot, 15 years into your career, you could be a director and you've never seen a downturn. So I think we also had, in addition to what is very unfortunately conventional misforecasting in the business that caused us to overhire and that we had to correct for, you also had a workforce that was just not at all of a mentality that this could ever happen. This felt like it was an act of God when in fact it's the cyclical nature of all businesses that this will happen at some time, and you hope it doesn't, and you wish it didn't, but you have to deal with it. And so I think we bit of a tough storm there for the whole industry, and we're still feeling it. I think we're still feeling it. Certainly, we're happy at Meta to be beyond that point, and we're growing again and executing at a stable rate and feeling really good about that. But quite a few of our other companies in the industry aren't, and it's a very uncertain time for engineers, for PMs, for designers, for everyone and all the support functions around them. So I'm super sympathetic for that.

我认为，显然，Meta 内部发生的误判到处都在发生，现在，尤其是随着利率上升，现金不再那么便宜，跑道更紧，人们只是在做出那些务实的决定。我认为

I think what you obviously the misforecasting that happened inside of Meta walls happened everywhere, and now that you have, especially with higher interest rates and cash isn't as cheap, runways are tighter, like people are just making those pragmatic calls. I think

我们会从中恢复过来的。我认为这是行业中常见的事情，但这并不减少我对那些受到影响或生活在对它恐惧中的人的同情和共情。

We'll rally back from this. I think this is a normal thing that happens to industry, but it doesn't reduce my sympathy and empathy for those who have been affected by it or who live in fear of it.

是的，我之前和一个在 Meta 工作的朋友聊天，我问她在 Meta 工作感觉怎么样，她说，很紧张。以前比较轻松。以前有些人在这里那里混日子，现在她说，不，那些人都走了。现在只剩下那些紧张的人了，事情是，我们工作非常努力。这让你想到什么吗？

Yeah, I was talking to a friend who works at Meta and I was asking them what it's like to work at Meta and she was just like, it's intense. And it used to be more chill. There were people that were coasting here and there and now she's like, no, all those people are gone now. It's just only the intense people left and things are, we're working really hard. Does that bring up anything?

是的，我不想对离开的人发表评论。人们离开 Meta 有各种不同的原因，同样，职位取消在很多情况下发生是因为我们决定现在不做这项工作。我们两年后才会做，不需要维持一个团队来做。所以我认为很难一概而论，因为每个人都是具体的人，有具体的生活和丰富的故事，值得被讲述。但我确实认为，如果有人在混日子，而你作为管理者必须做出艰难的决定，比如你倾向于哪一边，我深深的怀疑，再次强调我不认识你交谈的朋友，我深深的怀疑那个人可能已经在努力工作了。你明白我的意思吗？就像那个人可能已经在努力工作了。我不认为我们改变了个人的工作努力程度。我真的不相信。我确实认为存在选择偏差，关于会发生什么，我认为那可能就是你所看到的。

Yeah, I don't want to comment on people who left. People left Meta for all kinds of different reasons, and likewise, role elimination happened in many cases because we just decided not to do this work at this point. We're going to do it two years from now and don't need to carry a team to do it. So I think it's really hard to generalize because each of these is a specific person with a specific life and a story that is rich and deserves to be told. But I do think that yeah, if there was somebody coasting and you as a manager have to make tough calls on who you're bringing in, like which way you're going to bias, my profound suspicion, and again I don't know your friend who you spoke with, my profound suspicion is that person was probably already working hard. You know what I'm saying? Like that person was already probably working hard. I don't think we changed how hard any individual worked. I really don't believe that. I do think there was a selection bias as to what was going to happen and I think that's probably what you saw play in the fact.

如果有一个普遍性可以被发现，也许作为最后一个问题，我有一个环节叫做失败角落，我请人们分享他们职业生涯中的一次失败以及他们从中学到了什么。有什么浮现在你脑海中的吗？

If there is a generality that could be found, maybe as a last question, I have this segment where I call failure corner where I ask people to share a failure of their career and what they learned from that experience. Is there something that comes to mind?

我失败过无数次。我构建过没人使用的产品。我构建过无法扩展的技术架构。我失败过各种情况。我不后悔大多数这些。几乎每一个我都从中学到了。你知道，那是通往更好解决方案路上的一个停靠点，或者是对这件事永远不会成功的认识，这本身就是一种礼物。所有我后悔的、我认真对待的失败，都是个人失败，我以我不自豪的方式影响了别人，也许当时不自豪，因为我无法控制自己的情绪或心情。我感到恐惧，我感到害怕。有很多这样的。有一两个突出的，我不愿意分享，因为受影响的人我认为会希望我不要分享。我会分享一个，你知道，我认为那个人现在成年了。我们有过这个非常愚蠢的讨论，我记得如此生动，在客户端-服务器架构的早期，Facebook 显然是一个网站，所以你调用服务器来获取网页，但那个服务器会调用其他服务器来收集东西。而我是远程过程调用的主要客户之一，因为 Newsfeed 排名都是在另一组服务器上完成的，那组服务器有自己的特殊需求和特殊构建以及如何组合。所以你知道你的主 Web 服务器会通过过程调用向远程服务器发出调用并得到响应。我们有一个非常简陋的 RPC 系统，我不会说是谁构建的，但它被构建了，它真是一堆垃圾，不断失败，一点也不健壮。我们最好的工程师之一 Mark Slee 构建了一个新的叫做 Thrift。它是一个伟大的、非常伟大的 RPC 基础设施。而我最好的朋友之一 Dave Fetterman，一个我非常好的朋友和一位才华横溢的工程师，我们在讨论如何进行编码，我说我想要二进制编码。我说二进制编码，我希望它在传输线上超级高效，因为我存储这些 RPC。它们为我们做两件事，一个是活跃的 RPC，但我也将 RPC 存储在日志中并重放它们来做我们在新闻 feed 排名中所做的工作。这就是当时的方式。它都是异步离线的。所以我希望尽可能紧凑，因为我的内存带宽非常有限，而且当时内存非常昂贵。而 Dave Fetterman 说，不不不，那你知道，那是术语思维，Bos。我们应该使用 Linux 风格的描述符，那是纯英语语言。然后你可以查看日志，你可以看到它是什么，它是可解析的。内存带宽会变得更便宜，但这些日志对开发的可审查性会是一件更好的事情。这完全是一个，这是书呆子诱饵。你们中那些在这次通话中当过工程师的人，这就像 Vim 对 Emacs。这是书呆子诱饵。这深入了。这就像一个漫长的老...

I've failed tons of times. I've built products that nobody used. I've built technical architectures that didn't scale. I fail all kinds of times. I don't regret most of those. Almost every one of those I learned from. You know it was a stop on the path to a better solution or it was a recognition that this thing wasn't going to work ever, which is its own kind of a gift. All the failures that I regret, that I take seriously, are personal failures where I affected a person in a way that I'm not proud of, maybe wasn't proud of at the time because I wasn't in control of my own emotions or mood. I was feeling fearful, I was feeling scared. And there's a bunch of these. One or two that stand out that I don't feel comfortable sharing because the person affected I think would prefer I didn't share. I'll share one that was, you know, I think the person's an adult now. We have this really silly discussion I remember so vividly in the early days of client-server architectures, which Facebook obviously is a website, so you're calling to a server to get the web page, but then that server is going to call to other servers to gather things. And I was one of the major clients of remote procedure calls because Newsfeed ranking was all done on this other set of servers that had its own special requirements and special build and how it was put together. And so you know your main web server would put a call out over procedure call to the remote server and get a response back. And we had this really janky RPC system that I won't say who built it, but it was built and it was such a piece of garbage, constantly failing, not robust at all. And one of our best engineers, Mark Slee, built a new one called Thrift. It was a great, really great RPC infrastructure. And one of my best friends, Dave Fetterman, one of my really good friends and a brilliant engineer, we were talking about how to do the encoding and I was like, I want it to be binary encoding. I was like binary encoding, I want it to be super efficient on the wire because I'm storing these RPCs. They do two jobs for us, one of which is the active RPC, but I also stored the RPCs in a log and replayed them to do the work that we were doing in news feed ranking. That's how it was done back in the day. It was all kind of asynchronous offline. And so I wanted to be as tight as possible because my memory bandwidth was very limited and memory was so expensive back then. And Dave Fetterman was like, no no no, like that's, you know, that's term thinking, Bos. Like we should be using Linux style descriptors that are plain English language. Then you can look at the log, you can see what it is, it's parsable. Like memory bandwidth will get cheaper, but like these logs being scrutable to development is going to be a better thing. This is a totally, this is nerd bait. Those of you who've been engineers in this call, this is like Vim versus Emacs. This is nerd bait. This goes deep. This is like a long old...

继续。我喜欢。

Keep it coming. I like it.

这是公司里满屋子的工程师，公司并不大，所以可能公司一半的工程师都在这个房间里，我就绝对地，我对 Dave 大喊，我 literally 脸红了，我在出汗，我对 Dave Fetterman 如此愤怒，因为他反对我的提议，而我是主要的 RPC 客户。几件事：这太愚蠢了，Marley 刚刚构建了两个编码器。没那么难。你只需构建，你为你的东西选择你想要的编码器。那是最简单的解决方案。第二件事是 Dave 是对的，顺便说一句。就像一年内，内存 definitely 不重要，相对于试图进入这些日志是多么不可理解。我不得不构建大量额外的自定义软件来解析日志并理解发生了什么。但这也只是一个情况，我的身份被卷入了正确之中。就像我的身份，对于那些不知道身份威胁的人来说，身份威胁是最大的，你最糟糕的行为总是会在你认为自己处于身份威胁下时出现。当你觉得你看待自己的某个核心部分受到质疑时，你会用尽每一丝纤维来捍卫那个自我概念，因为重新概念化你是谁是如此昂贵，以至于你会捍卫自己。所以就像我的身份是正确。我得到了一个非常轻微的惩罚，它导致我把一个我最好的朋友，我认识的最好的工程师之一，一个我 literally 住在一起的人，卷入了一场对我来说非常尴尬的冲突，每个人都只是挠头，像 Bos 现在怎么了？就像我看起来像一个失控的疯子。是的，我记得，所以我记得那个房间，我记得我在房间里站的位置，我记得那个时刻的一切，我不得不回家，像那到底是什么？就像发生了什么？我问自己，那里发生了什么，呃

It's the room full of engineers at the company and the company's not that big and so like probably half the engineers at the company in this room and I just like absolutely I was like yelling at Dave like I'm literally like I'm turning red I'm like sweating I'm so angry at Dave Fetterman for like for countermanding my proposal when I'm the major RPC customer. A couple things: this is so and so dumb, Marley just built two encoders. It's not that hard. You just build, you pick which encoder you want for your things. That's the easiest solution ever. Second thing is Dave was right by the way. Like within a year the memory definitely didn't matter relative to like how inscrutable it was to like try to get into these logs. I had to build a ton of extra custom software to like parse the logs and like understand what's going on. But also it just like it was just a it was a case where my identity was caught up in being right. Like my identity and for those who don't know identity threat is just the biggest, your worst behavior is always going to come out when you think you are under identity threat. When you feel like some core part of how you see yourself is in question, you will react with every ounce of your fiber to defend that conception of yourself because it's so expensive to reconceptualize who you are that you like defend yourself. So like my identity was being right. I got a very toss on the wrist and it caused me to take like one of my best friends, one of the best engineers I knew, a guy I literally lived with, and getting like a really embarrassing for me conflict which everyone was just like scratching their head like what is going on with Bos right now? Like I look like an unhinged crazy person. Yeah, I remember so I remember the room, I remember where I was standing in the room, I remember everything about that moment and I had to go home and be like what the was that? Like what what happened? I'm asking myself like what happened there and uh

那算是重新理解它是什么的旅程中的众多步骤之一，不是要正确，而是要保持开放心态和好奇心，以及如何参与对话。我当时 22 岁。我现在不为它找借口，但我记得还有几个类似的例子，那些不那么技术性、更个人化的事情，我不会分享。但我清晰地记得每一个，那些对我来说才是真正的失败。

That was kind of one of the many steps on the journey to recontextualizing what it was, not to be right, and to be open-minded and curious, and how to engage in conversations. I was 22. I don't make excuses for it now, but I remember there were a couple other examples like that in things that were less technical and more personal that I won't share. But I remember each of them vividly, and those are the real failures for me.

我喜欢这个故事，虽然已经过去这么久，但仍然萦绕在你心头，影响如此深远。

I love how the story is like so long ago at this point and still stuck with you and such an impact.

哦天哪，是的，我永远不会忘记。那很尴尬。对于那些人，那句老话，真的是最真实的引语之一，我知道这是陈词滥调，有时陈词滥调之所以是陈词滥调，是因为它们好。就像人们不记得你说过什么，他们只记得你让他们感觉如何。这就是所有人记得的，就是你让他们感觉如何。我想在那个房间里，我让人们感到不安全，也许像是糟糕。

Oh God, yeah, I'll never forget that. It was embarrassing. And for those, that's the old quote, it's really one of the truest quotes, and I know it's cliché, and sometimes clichés are clichés because they're good. It's like people don't remember what you said, they just remember how you made them feel. That's all anyone remembers, is how you made them feel. And I think in that room I made people feel like unsafe, maybe like it was bad.

你知道，我喜欢这个身份威胁的概念。让我们把这期播客命名为“身份威胁”。

You know, I like this concept of identity threat. Let's call this podcast episode 'Identity Threat'.

我就在那里，你说吧，BOS。

I'm just there, you go, BOS.

我们以无数问题开始了这期节目。我现在有无数个问题。我希望我们能继续，但我知道我们必须结束了。在我们进入非常激动人心的闪电轮之前，你有什么想分享或留给听众的吗？

We started this episode with a billion questions. I have like a billion in one questions now. I wish we can keep going, but I know we have to wrap this up. Is there anything you wanted to share or leave listeners with before we get to our very exciting lightning round?

好吧，万一我们最终把这期节目命名为“身份威胁”，让我告诉你真正的情况。我在教练指导下取得了很多突破，学会了当感到身份威胁时身体内部的感觉，并学习了减少这种感觉可能性的技巧和策略，以及当它发生时的应对方法和修复方法。就像我经历了所有这些。我想说，我学到的最伟大的教训是几年后，仅仅通过观察一个人，Ami Vora，她是传奇人物，长期在公司工作，参与了我们的开发平台，然后和我一起在广告部门工作了很长时间，之后长期担任 WhatsApp 的产品经理负责人。她后来在公司外做了更多伟大的事情。和她一起工作就像和一个外星人一起工作，因为她和我方法如此不同。她可以和世界上任何人产生最深刻的分歧，他们会说出她认为不仅错误而且疯狂错误的事情，而她会回应，她会说，‘太迷人了，你必须告诉我更多你为什么这么想。’我无法公正地描述。她是发自内心地这么说。她极度好奇。她看到了她和那个人之间的分歧，可能是个人性的，可能是专业性的，可能是任何事。她看到了分歧，以及他们如何看待世界，她如何看待世界，而不是像威胁一样反应，或者害怕自己可能错了，以前做错了事，她以最真诚和深刻的好奇心回应。我目睹它绝对地拆除了观点之间的墙。人们立刻感受到她真诚的好奇心，会倾身向前，这会导致他们思想开放。如果她是对的，顺便说一句，她通常是对的，那么他们会离开时想，‘哦，好吧，我错了。’但她也改变主意。这就是关键。从那以后，我真的试图模仿这一点。就是当我内心强烈抗拒时，我尝试拥抱好奇心。‘哇，我们对这件事的看法不同。那太迷人了。告诉我你为什么这么看。’这可能是个人反馈。有人说，‘嘿，BZ，我觉得你说得不够多。’‘哇，你觉得我说得不够多？那真是出乎意料。我很想听听更多，因为从来没人这么对我说过。’所以我想把这个给任何可能在自己身上认识到这种行为的人。有很多事情你可以做，你应该做那项工作。自我提升的工作总是富有成果和令人满意的，正如我们讨论的，它在你生活的各个方面都有回报，与家人、朋友，以及职业上。这是我真正认为很棒的一点，就是好奇心。在挑战时刻拥抱好奇心真的完全改变了我的生活，我把这归功于 Ami。

Well, in the off chance that we do end up labeling this episode 'Identity Threat', let me give you what really was. I made a lot of breakthroughs with coaching, learning about the feeling inside my own body when I was feeling that identity threat, and learning techniques and tactics to reduce the likelihood I would feel it and how to deal with it when it happened and how to repair when it did. Like I went through all that stuff. I would say the greatest lesson I learned would come years later, and it was just from observing somebody, Ami Vora, who was legendary, longtime, came in, worked on our development platform, then worked with me on ads for a long time, and then was the PM lead for WhatsApp for a long time. She's since gone on to do even more great things outside the company. Working with her was like working with, like watching, like an alien, because she and I were so different in our approach. She could have the most profound disagreement with somebody in the world, and they would say the thing that she thought was not just wrong but like crazy wrong, and she would respond, she would say, 'Fascinating, you have to tell me more about why you think that.' And I can't do it justice. She meant it like from the core of her being. She was like intensely curious. She saw this schism between her and that person, and it could have been personal, it could have been professional, it could have been anything. She saw the schism and how they saw the world, how she saw the world, and rather than reacting as if it was a threat that somebody saw it differently, or rather than reacting afraid that maybe she was wrong and had done things wrong before, she reacted with the most genuine and profound curiosity. And I just watched it absolutely tear down walls between points of view. People felt immediately her genuine heartfelt curiosity and would lean in, and that would cause them to be open-minded. And if she was right, which by the way she usually was, then they would leave being like, 'Oh, okay, I was wrong about that.' But she also would change her mind. And that was the key. I really ever since then, I just really have tried to model that. It's just reacting when I have a strong internal clench, I try to embrace curiosity. 'Wow, we do not see this thing the same way. Like, that is fascinating. Tell me why you see that.' And that could be by personal feedback. Someone's like, 'Hey, BZ, I don't think you talk enough.' 'Wow, you don't think I talk enough? That is, that's unexpected. Like, I would love to hear more about that, because no one's ever said that to me.' So I wanted to give that to anybody who might recognize this behavior in themselves. There's lots of things that you can do, and you should do that work. The work of improving yourself is always fruitful and satisfying, and it pays off as we discuss in every aspect of your life, with your family, with your friends, and professionally. This is one that I really thought was so great, was just curiosity. Embracing curiosity in those moments of challenge has really completely changed my life, and I owe that to Ami.

哇，我喜欢这个例子。这基本上是一个“是的，而且”的例子，但真的没人会像“是的，而且”那样。这是一种很好的说法，就是“太迷人了，告诉我更多。”“太迷人了，你必须告诉我为什么、如何，我想理解它。”我喜欢这个。也许那会是新标题，“太迷人了。”就这样。总之，老板，我们到了非常激动人心的闪电轮。你准备好了吗？

Wow, I love this example. It's basically an example of 'yes, and,' but in a really like no one's going to be like 'yes, and.' It's like a really nice way of saying it just 'fascinating, tell me more.' 'Fascinating, you've got to tell me why, how, I want to understand it.' I love that. Maybe that'll be the new title, 'Fascinating.' There you go. Anyway, with that, boss, we reached our very exciting lightning round. Are you ready?

我准备好了。

I'm ready.

好的，第一个问题：你最常向别人推荐的两三本书是什么？

Okay, first question: what are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people?

《梦想机器》，这是一部关于现代计算历史的巨著，实际上是史前史，广泛追随 J.C.R. 利克莱德的生活，但真的比那更广泛。在我看来，这是一块巨大的缺失历史。我认为在我的学科，计算机科学中，我们没有得到适当的教育。我们学习了艾伦·图灵，我们学习了计算机科学理论的一些技术基础，但现代计算机及其路径是深刻而迷人的，它在今天特别有共鸣，因为 J.C.R. 利克莱德的观察是人在回路计算，而我认为我们现在处于人在回路 AI。我认为那里有巨大的共鸣。第二本是《内心善良》，这是贝基博士的书，我再次认为这是一本很棒的育儿书，但更重要的是，它包含了关于我们如何思考自己的情绪以及如何管理这些情绪的教训，我发现这在任何情境下都有用。

The Dream Machine, which is a tremendous history of, prehistory really, of modern computing, extensively following the life of J.C.R. Licklider, but really it's much broader than that. It's a tremendous missing piece of history in my opinion. I think in my discipline, in computer science, we were not properly educated. We learned about Alan Turing and we learned about some of the technical underpinnings of computer science theory, but the modern computer and the path to it is a profound and fascinating one, and it has particular resonance today as J.C.R. Licklider's observation was human-in-the-loop computing, and I think we are now in human-in-the-loop AI. I think there's a tremendous resonance there. The second one is Good Inside, which is Dr. Becky's book, and I again, I think it's a tremendous parenting book, but more than that, it does contain lessons for how we think about our own emotions and how we manage those, which I find to be useful in any context.

惊人的推荐。她还有一个在线社区，她是一个很棒的在线社区，她非常投入，再次对那些父母来说，你有点早，莱尼，但你会到的，有像我在 Instagram 上读的小脚本，当我和孩子们面临巨大情感挑战时，我有现成的话，它们就在我脑海中，已经被兑现了，对吧，它们已经准备好了，是一个巨大的改变。

Amazing recommendations. She's also got an online community for people that like, she's a wonderful online community, she's very engaged in it, and again for those parents out there, you're a little early for this, Lenny, but you'll get there, having little scripts that I'm reading like on Instagram that like when I'm in a moment of tremendous emotional challenge with my children, I have the words handy, they're just like top of mind for me, they've been cashed in, right, they're primed, is a big game changer.

这将是未来育儿节目的内容。

This will be for a parenting episode down the road.

没错。有没有你最近真正喜欢的电影或电视节目？

That's right. Is there a favorite recent movie or TV show that you've really enjoyed?

是的，这很常规，但《曼达洛人》。所以有趣的事情之一，再次与我的孩子们有关，是我们和孩子们一起看，所以我们有机会去银河星际巡洋舰。再次，你们都知道我是一个真正的、彻底的极客，超级粉丝……

Yeah, so this is super conventional, but The Mandalorian. So one of the things that's been fun about that is related to my kids again, is we watched it with my kids, so we had a chance to go on the Galactic Starcruiser. Again, you all know I am a genuine and true nerd through and through, huge fan of...

Scott Trowbridge 以及他在《星球大战》的工作，在迪士尼的星战园区，还有那些。在那之前，我们家的孩子一个九岁一个六岁，我们一起看了所有电影，然后我们全家一起看《曼达洛人》，超级好玩。能有那种传说联系很有趣，所以不只是经典的儿童电影，还有更多东西。我觉得对他们来说，他们觉得自己参与了一种成人的对话。所以我真的很享受，我很欣赏 Dave Filoni、John Favreau 以及构建那个宇宙的团队。

Scott Trowbridge and his work at Star Wars, in Star Wars lands in Disney, and also of that. And so before that, we got our kids, who are nine and six, and watched all the movies together, and then we've been watching Mandalorian together as a family, and it's super fun. And it's fun to have that kind of lore connection, so it's not just the classic kids movies, but there's something more. And I think for them, they feel like it's an adult kind of conversation they get to be a part of. So I've really enjoyed that, and I think the world of Dave Filoni and John Favreau and the team that's building that universe out.

这就是我们的方式。

This is the way.

这就是我们的方式。

This is the way.

你有没有一个最喜欢的面试问题，喜欢问你在面试的候选人？

Do you have a favorite interview question that you like to ask candidates that you're interviewing?

我总会问人们的最重要问题之一是：那些曾与你共事的人会说你最大的优点和缺点是什么？我喜欢这个问题的原因有几个，尤其是因为我经常做背景调查，我喜欢交叉验证他们对自己如何被他人评价的认知。还有，他们如何回应批评。他们是否会说——有时坦率让我惊讶——他们说：‘嘿，你会经常听到这个批评。我觉得这不公平。’那可以是一个还行的答案，但他们必须相当稳健。或者像是：‘嘿，这是我正在努力改进的。这是我正在做的。’但我也喜欢听他们认为自己的超能力是什么。太多时候，面试中大量注意力放在弱点上，我关心这个是因为我想知道 downside 是什么。但对我来说更重要的是：你擅长什么？如果我能直接搭上马车骑行——那就是我想知道的。你的超能力在哪里？有趣的是，人们很少——通过背景调查，他们对批评往往不太准确，但对自己的优势通常相当准确。

One of the most important things that I always ask people is: What would people who've worked with them say are their greatest strengths and weaknesses? I like this for a couple reasons, not least of which is I often do follow up with references and I like to triangulate their awareness of how other people calibrate them. And also, how they respond to criticism. Are they saying—sometimes candid surprise me—they say, 'Hey, you'll hear this critique a lot for me. I don't think it's fair.' That can be an okay answer, but they've got to be pretty robust there. Or it's like, 'Hey, this is something I'm working on. Here's what I'm working on.' But I also like to hear what they think the superpowers are. Too often a lot of attention in interview is paid to weaknesses, which I care about because I want to know what the downside is. But way more important to me is: What are you awesome at? What is the thing that if I just—I could just hitch a wagon and ride—that's what I want to know. Where's the superpower that you like it at? And what's funny is people are pretty rarely—by reference checks they're not that often accurate about what the critiques are, but they are usually pretty accurate about what their strengths are.

有趣。我也非常支持关注优势，不要太担心你的弱点，但要求人们通过团队来情境化他们的表现。那太重要了。我们靠自己成不了什么大事。

Interesting. I'm also a huge proponent of strengths and not worry too much about your weaknesses, but asking people to contextualize their performance through the team. That's so important. We do not achieve very much on our own.

沟通工作。是的，很棒。

Communication job. Yeah, amazing.

有没有一个你最近发现并喜欢的 favorite 产品？Meta 产品是可以接受的答案。

Is there a favorite product that you recently discovered that you love? And Meta products are acceptable answers.

Ray-Ban Meta 眼镜会是一个诱人的答案。多模态的东西，我会因此惹上麻烦，因为我在社交媒体上已经 tease 了好几个月，它仍然是封闭测试。我们正在慢慢扩大测试，但人们非常想要它。这可能是我最近尝试过的最神奇的东西之一。这不完全公平——也不是——你可以买 Ray-Ban Meta 眼镜，很快——我不会说什么时候，但很快——它们会有这个功能。但跳出框框思考更有趣。

The Ray-Ban Meta glasses would be a tempting answer. The multimodal stuff, which I'm gonna get in trouble because I've been teasing this for months on social media and it's still a closed beta. And it's like we're growing the beta slowly, but it's like people really badly want it. It was probably one of the most magical things I've gotten to try recently. It's not totally fair—it's also not—you can buy the Ray-Ban Meta glasses, and very soon—I won't say when, but very soon—they'll have this capability. But it's more fun to think outside of the box.

好吧，这真是——我会因为这个答案惹上麻烦，因为它有点装。

All right, this is such a—I'm gonna get in trouble for this answer because it's a bit of a pretentious one.

我不是一个车迷，让我现在就说清楚。我不喜欢车。我不在乎车。我想要一辆能开、不坏的车。我从小到大——我所有的车都跑了超过 10 万英里，因为我们只买过二手车。它们经常坏，比如动力转向在开车时失灵，你得紧紧抱住方向盘，或者刹车失灵，或者你抛锚了。我都经历过。所以我只想要一辆车。然后我开了一辆我买的 Honda Accord 开了 10 年，然后我开了一辆 Tesla Model S 开了 10 年。Tesla Model S 在停放时出了点事——我不细说了。所以我得买辆新车。我又想，我要买辆电动车。我想，我要买辆好车。我要买辆好车。我现在开的是 Mercedes-Benz AMG EQS，我不知道车可以这么好。我从小开二手车，你知道，随便什么。我不知道这是可能的。这是我认为你今天能在市场上买到的最好的增强现实产品。他们有显示屏——它把你的转弯放在三维空间中。它有摄像头对着你的眼睛，所以它相对于你的眼睛正确定位在这个显示屏上。转弯——所以当你靠近时，就像你撞到一堵小墙，你得在撞墙前转弯。我想，天哪，我觉得这辆车是伟大的增强现实。所以是的，不是车迷，我不是想炫耀这辆车或什么的。我非常喜欢它。我不知道它们可以这么好。但我觉得最令人印象深刻的是他们在这辆车里做的增强现实非常棒。

I am not a car guy, let me say that right now. I don't like cars. I don't care about cars. Like, I want a car that works and doesn't break. I grew up—all my cars growing up I had over 100,000 miles in them because we only ever had used cars. They were constantly breaking down, and like the power steering would go out while you're driving and you have to hug the thing, or the brakes would go out, or you'd throw a rod. I've done it all. So I just wanted a car. And so then I drove a Honda Accord that I bought for 10 years, and then I drove a Tesla Model S for 10 years. And a Tesla Model S had a thing happen to it while it was parked—I won't get into that. So I had to get a new car. And again, I'm like, I want to get an electric car. And I was like, I'm gonna get something nice. I'm gonna get something nice. I'm driving a Mercedes-Benz AMG EQS, and I didn't know cars could be this nice. I grew up driving used cars and like, you know, whatever. I did not know it was possible. It is the best augmented reality product I think you could buy in the market today. They have the display—it puts your turn in three-dimensional space. It's got cameras facing your eyes so it's positioned correctly on this display relative to your eyes. The turn—and so when you come up, like it's like you're hitting a little wall, you got to turn before you hit the wall. And I was like, oh my God, like I think this car is great augmented reality. So yeah, not a car guy, and I'm not trying to flex on this car or whatever it is. I like it a lot. I didn't know they could be that nice. But the thing I thought was so impressive was they did an amazing job with augmented reality in this car.

哇，Mercedes-Benz，增强现实、混合现实的大玩家。

Wow, Mercedes-Benz, a player in augmented reality, mixed reality, big time.

他们在那里。他们在那里。他们是领先者。

They're out there. They're out there. They're the lead.

我有时想举办一个比赛，赠送人们在这个环节提到的产品，现在你大大超出了我的预算。Ray-Ban Meta——你负担得起。那太棒了。我得去看看。我想我们会增加一些 Mercedes 的销量。下一个问题。

I sometimes think about having a contest where I give away products people mention in the segment, and now you've blown my budget way, way out. Ray-Ban Meta—you can afford that. That's amazing. I'm going to have to check that out. I think we're going to increase some sales for Mercedes. Next question.

你有没有一个最喜欢的 life motto，你经常回想、思考、与朋友和家人分享、觉得有用？

Do you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to, think about, share with friends and family, find useful?

是的，我们有一个有趣的——实际上，我们是怎么有这个的。我家的座右铭——我的直系家庭，比如我、我妻子和孩子们——就是‘相信自己’。就是‘相信自己’。实际上，我们之所以有这个座右铭，是因为我们有一栋房子，我们有一些不错的艺术品，其中一件是 Tracy Emin——一位著名的英国艺术家——她做霓虹灯作品，上面写着‘相信自己’。所以它在我们卧室的走廊里，我和所有孩子以及我妻子都在那里——写着‘相信自己’。每天早上霓虹灯亮起，‘相信自己’。然后我有机会在英国制作一个徽章——我的家族很久以前是英国人——所以我们在徽章上写着‘相信自己’。我总是和我的孩子们特别谈论这个。我真的认为，当你经历同辈压力时，你信任谁？他们还是你自己？当你有很多自我怀疑和不确定性时，你必须相信自己。我只是觉得我取得的很多成功——我想这对大多数去创业公司并成功的人来说可能都是真的——就是我只是相信我在做好的决定。我的意思是，这回到了我之前说的关于如何做像 Newsfeed 这样的事或有争议的事，或如何做大的昂贵改变——就是信念。你必须相信你的眼睛、耳朵和智力结合起来给了你一个具有内在价值的观点，值得你的尊重，而不是读那篇关于你公司的报纸文章，并相信它胜过你自己的眼睛和耳朵。

Yeah, we have a funny—actually, how we came about this. The motto my family has—like my immediate family, like me, my wife, and kids—is just 'trust yourself.' Just 'trust yourself.' Actually, the reason we have that motto is when we have a house, we have a few nice art pieces, and one of them is a Tracy Emin—a famous UK-based artist—and she does neon pieces, and it says 'trust yourself.' And so it's in our bedroom hallway where me and all the kids and my wife are—says 'trust yourself.' And every morning the neon lights up and 'trust yourself.' And then I had the chance to have a crest made in the UK—my family's English from way back—and so we have in the crest it says 'trust yourself.' And I always talk to my kids especially. I really think people, when you're experiencing peer pressure, like who do you trust? Like them or yourself? When you're having a lot of self-doubt and uncertainty, like you have to trust yourself. I just think so much of the success I've had—I think this is probably true of most people who went to startups and succeeded—was like I just had faith that I was making good decisions. I mean, this comes back to the conviction point I made earlier about how you do things like a Newsfeed or controversial things or how you make big expensive changes—just conviction. Like you have to believe that your eyes, ears, and intellect have combined to give you a point of view that has intrinsic value and deserves your respect, as opposed to reading that newspaper article about your company and believing over what your own eyes and ears.

你不会总是对的，这没关系。

You won't always be right and that's okay.

完全正确。信任自己也包括承担风险，因为你相信自己能够应对风险没有回报时发生的事情。

Totally, that's right. You also trusting yourself also includes taking risks because you trust that you can deal and handle with what happens when the risks don't pay out.

太棒了。最后一个问题：我知道你是一位业余摄影师，也许半专业，拍很多旅行照片。业余，好吧。你还有一个我偶然发现的网站，不知道大家是否知道。名字很有趣，我不打算提。Warden short？那是我名字的字母重排。

Beautiful. Final question: I know that you're an amateur photographer, maybe semi-pro photographer, a lot of travel photography. Amateur, okay. You also have this website that I came across that I don't know if people know about it. It's this funny name, I'm not going to mention it. I don't know if you want people to know. Warden short? It's an anagram of my name.

Warden short.com。是的，我热爱摄影，真的热爱，这是我的真正热情所在。

Warden short dot com. Yeah, I love photography, I love it, it's a real passion of mine.

所以问题是：有没有，你拍过的最喜欢的照片是哪张？

So here's the question: is there, what's your favorite photo that you've taken?

顺便说一句，艺术其实是谈论信任自己的好地方。我知道这么说很老套，但我认为 Rick Rubin 最近关于什么是艺术以及人们如何创作的访谈非常精准。你必须为自己而创作，你必须热爱它，如果别人也喜欢它并引起更广泛的共鸣，那很棒。但那并不总是你创作的原因。如果你开始为了更广泛的共鸣而创作，那你就是在追逐别的东西。那是媒体，是娱乐，但不是艺术，是别的东西。我说这些基本上是为了跳踢踏舞，意思是说我有点喜欢我的很多照片。很难选出一张最喜欢的。我脑海中浮现的、更有情感意义的一张是我儿子在街上玩耍的照片，他正跳进水坑里，穿着你知道的雨靴、雨衣之类的。照片不锐利，没有对焦，就像是一个小片段，一个想法。我真的认为安塞尔·亚当斯谈过很多，摄影师的目标是创作出一张捕捉，向观众表达身临其境的感觉。人们忘了他是暗房大师，甚至可能比拍摄照片更甚。照片是他做出惊人作品的地方。我有幸去过他在大苏尔的暗房，和他的儿子共度时光，看他们在那个房间里冲洗照片。他有详细的脚本，关于如何突出，你知道，如何减淡和加深照片的不同部分，以获得他想要的共鸣。他为摄影被接受为一种艺术媒介而奋斗，当时它并不是，我觉得这在当今的 AI 艺术对话中如此共鸣，我们又一次试图把关什么是艺术。不幸的是，你就是不能那样做。所以这张我儿子的照片，没人会称它为技术奇迹，但作为一个片段，它捕捉了对我个人而言，但我也认为对父母普遍而言，与孩子共度的这些极其感人、迷人的瞬间的短暂性，那就是我想到的那张。

Art is actually a great place to talk about trusting yourself, by the way. And I know it's cheesy to say it, but I think Rick Rubin's recent interviews on what art is and how people make it is spot on. You have to make it for yourself and you have to love it, and if someone else loves it and it finds broader resonance, that's awesome. But that's not always why you do it. And if you start to try to do it for broader resonance, then you're kind of chasing something else. It's media, it's entertainment, but it's not art, it's some other thing. And I say all this to basically tap dance to say I kind of love a lot of my photos. Like it's very hard to pick a favorite. The one that is popping to my head which has more emotional significance is a picture I took of my son playing in the street, just jumping in a puddle, wearing, you know, kind of a rain boot, rain slick kind of a thing. And it's not sharp, it's not in focus, it's like it's a vignette, it's an idea. And I really do think Ansel Adams talked a lot about how the goal of the photographer is to create a capture that expresses to the viewer what it felt like to be there. And people forget that he was the master of the dark room, much more even more so maybe than the capture of the print. The print was where he did amazing work. And I've had the pleasure to go to his dark room in Big Sur and spend time with his son and watch them do development in that room. And he had elaborate scripts of how he would highlight, you know, would dodge and burn different parts of the photograph to get it to have the resonance that he wanted. And he fought for photography to be accepted as an artistic medium, which it wasn't, which I find so resonant in today's AI art conversations where once again we're trying to gatekeep what is art. And you just don't get to do that, unfortunately. So this picture of my son, no one would call it a technical marvel, but as a vignette of it capturing for me personally but also I think in general for parents the ephemerality of these tremendously touching, charming human moments that you have with your children, that's the one that comes to mind.

太棒了。我们会试着找到它并给大家链接。关于 Rick Rubin，他说过类似的话，你把艺术当作你的日记。就像我只是描述我觉得有趣和重要的事情，没人能来对我说我的日记是错的。这是我的日记，这就是我看世界的方式，这没关系。最好的艺术就来源于此。我们会链接到这个，最近我看了一个很棒的视频，他正好说了这个。

Amazing. We're gonna try to find it and link folks to it. And on the point of Rick Rubin, something he says along the same lines is that you think of art as like your diary. Like I'm just describing what I find interesting and important and nobody can come to me and say my diary is wrong. It's my diary, this is how I see the world and that's okay. And that's where the best art comes from. And we'll link to this, there's an awesome video of him saying exactly this I was recently watching.

实际上，Boz，这太有趣了。我非常感谢他们为此抽出时间。我期待我们未来的育儿和关系播客。开玩笑，不是开玩笑。最后两个问题：如果人们想关注你的动态，可以在网上哪里找到你？听众如何能对你有所帮助？

Actually, Boz, this was so much fun. I am so thankful they made time for this. I'm looking forward to our parenting and relationships podcast in the future. Joking, not joking. Two final questions: where can folks find you online if they want to follow what you're up to, and how can listeners be useful to you?

当然。我在 Instagram 和 Threads 上是 Boz Tank，也在 X 上，facebook.com/，我还有自己的播客，是技术深度 dive，所以相当不同。我会说它是技术深度 dive，每次尝试深入一两个话题。叫做 Boz to the Future。你可以在 Spotify 或 iTunes 上找到，Boz to the Future。买一些 Quest 的东西，是的，买，给自己买个 Quest 3，说实话，你犒劳自己，这就对了，或者这些 Ray-Ban Meta 眼镜，我是超级粉丝。Boz，再次感谢你来到这里。干杯。

Sure. I'm at Boz Tank on Instagram and on Threads and also on X, facebook.com/ and I also have my own podcast which is technical deep dive, so it's pretty different. I would say it's a technical deep dives, so try to go deep on one or two topics each time. That's called a Boz to the Future. You can find that on Spotify or iTunes, Boz to the Future. Buy some Quest stuff, yeah, buy, get yourself a Quest 3, let's be honest, do you treat yourself, there you go, or these Ray-Ban Meta glasses, I'm a big fan. Boz, again, thank you so much for being here. Cheers.

谢谢，伙计。大家再见。非常感谢收听。如果你觉得有价值，可以在 Apple Podcast、Spotify 或你最喜欢的播客应用上订阅节目。另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这真的能帮助其他听众找到播客。你可以在 Lenny podcast.com 找到所有往期节目或了解更多。下集见。

Thanks buddy. Bye everyone. Thank you so much for listening. If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast. You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at Lenny podcast.com. See you in the next episode.