Sam Altman 谈 AI、超级智能与人类未来

在我们开始今天的节目之前，我有一个请求。请订阅我们的频道。我和我的团队每天都在努力，试图带来世界上最有价值的对话。我们想要的回报只是你的一个订阅。

Before we start today's episode, I just have one request. Please subscribe to our channel. Me and my team work every day and try to bring the most valuable conversations from the world. All we want in return is just one subscribe from you.

在《Figuring Out》节目中，我们试图研究世界上最非凡的头脑是如何思考的，而这正是今天这集的内容。今天与 Sam Altman 的这集不是关于 AI，不是关于技术，而是关于一个正在构建那项技术的人。他的不安全感是什么？他的恐惧是什么？作为朋友、作为父亲、作为试图构建将塑造人类的最重要事物之一的人，他是如何思考的？他如何注意到模式并找到非显而易见的事情去努力，在未来构建出不可思议的东西？这就是我们试图理解的。我希望在播客结束时，你能从他的头脑中提取一些经验教训，并应用到你的生活中，让你的生活更美好。观看这集节目，并在评论中告诉我你觉得如何。本集的造型合作伙伴是 Levis。点击描述中的链接探索他们的最新系列。享受节目吧。

On Figuring Out, we try to study how the world's most extraordinary minds think, and that's exactly what today's episode is about. Today's episode with Sam Altman is not about AI, it's not about technology, it's about a human being who's building that technology. What are his insecurities? What are his fears? How does he think as a friend, as a father, as someone who's trying to build one of the most important things which will shape humanity? How does he notice patterns and find the non-obvious things to work on to build something incredible in the future? That's what we've tried to understand. I hope by the end of the podcast, you get to extract some lessons from his mind and implement in your life to make your life better. Watch this episode and let me know in the comments how did you find it. And the styling partner for this episode is Levis. Click on the link in the description to explore their latest collection. Enjoy the show.

欢迎来到节目，Sam。欢迎来到《Figuring Out》。很荣幸。

Welcome on the show, Sam. Welcome on Figuring Out. It's an honor.

非常感谢你这样做。

I really appreciate you doing this.

你知道，如果有人第一次看你，完全不知道你是谁，你会如何在接下来的 60 秒内向他们解释你是谁？

You know, if someone's watching you for the first time and they have no clue who you are, how would you explain to them who you are in the next 60 seconds?

嗯，我像个技术迷，对世界充满好奇，并且相信 AI 将成为触及我们所有人生活的事物，希望主要以非常积极的方式。嗯，我是一位父亲。我非常爱我的孩子。这就是我想说的。

Um, I'm like a tech fan, like a curious person about the world and a believer that AI is going to be this thing that touches all of our lives, hopefully in mostly super positive ways. Um, I'm a dad. I really love my kids. That's what I would say.

但你是否曾想过某些事情，比如这就是你思考或说话的方式？

But do you ever think about certain things that this is how you're going to think or say or speak about?

嗯，我只是试着自然地谈论我脑子里想的事情，或者我感兴趣的事情。

Um, I do just kind of try to naturally talk about what's on my mind, uh, or what I'm interested in.

好的。你从小就是这样吗，总是想着接下来要说什么有趣的话？

Okay. And were you like this since you were a kid, always thinking about what interesting to say next?

因为我觉得我小时候就是那样。我想我只是试着……我觉得我一直追随我好奇的东西。

Cuz I think I was like that as a kid. I think I would just try to like I think I just always followed what I was curious about.

你小时候有没有觉得不如别人？

And do you as a kid did you ever feel inferior to someone?

一直都有？我是说，我确信大多数孩子都会。嗯，但我就像，你知道，我是个非常书呆子的孩子。我不擅长运动，而我成长的时代，那恰恰是很酷的事情。

All the time? I mean, I'm sure most kids do. Uh, but I was like, you know, I was like a very nerdy kid. I like wasn't good at sports and I grew up at a time when like that was the very much the cool thing.

一样。

Same.

嗯，是的。

Uh, yeah.

我也不擅长运动。

I was not good at sports either.

而那却是很酷的事情。

And it was like the cool thing.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。嗯，所以是的，完全如此。我就像不是——我不是——我一直有很多朋友，我和人们相处得很好，但我从来不是那种酷小孩。

Yeah. Um, so yeah, total. I was like not a— I was not— I always had like a lot of friends and I connected well with people, but I was never like a cool kid.

好的。那让你困扰吗？

Okay. Did that bother you?

有一点。嗯，我是说，它没有像——我不认为它像困扰某些人那样困扰我，但是的，我认为所有孩子都想受欢迎和酷，而且就像——我觉得对孩子来说，感觉不在核心圈子里什么的，是非常痛苦的。

Sort of. Um, I mean, it did not like— I don't think it bothered me like it bothers some people, but yeah, I think all kids like want to be popular and cool and there's like— I think it's like very painful as a kid to not feel like in the inner circle or whatever.

你说它没有像对某些人那样困扰你。你是什么意思？嗯，区别是什么？你怎么想的？

You said it didn't bother you as it would to some people. What do you mean by that? Well, what's the distinction? What did you think about?

我和其他人聊过，他们会说：‘啊，你知道，我童年的决定性特征就是我像个书呆子，不酷，我讨厌那样。’而我会说：‘我是个书呆子，不酷，这有点困扰我，但我有我的电脑，我有我的小核心朋友圈，而且我，你知道，我有一个美好的童年，我觉得我非常快乐。’

I've talked to other people who are like, 'Ah, you know, the defining characteristic of my childhood was that I was like a nerd and not cool and I hated that.' And I was like, 'I was a nerd and not cool and it like slightly bothered me, but I had my computer and I had like my little core set of friends and I, you know, like I had a wonderful childhood and I think I was like very happy.'

好的。所以，我想做的是，我想多谈谈你的大脑，比如你如何思考，你实际上如何做决定，以及你对某些事情的看法，因为我觉得那对我来说真的很有趣。

Okay. So, here's what I want to do. I want to talk more about your brain, like how you think, how you actually make decisions, and what you think about certain things because I think that's really fascinating to me.

好的。

Okay.

而且这很棒——未被充分探索。

And it's great— underexplored.

我觉得这样谈论自己真的很难，但我会尽力。

I think it's really hard to like talk about yourself this way, but I'll try my best.

是的。也许只是那些事情——因为你在很多采访中零零散散地说过一些事情，我不知道为什么人们没有深入那条路。这是我想做的。

Yeah. Maybe just the kind of things you— because you've said a couple of things in like a lot of your interviews here and there and I don't know why people didn't just go like deep down on that alley. Something I want to do.

那么你的哪个版本已经消失了？比如你开始时是谁，现在你变成了谁？

So what version of you has died? Like who were you when you started and who have you become?

嗯，我那时更无忧无虑。比如当我们创办 OpenAI 时，我就像，你知道，我当时生活很轻松。我有很多爱好，而现在我就像被极其精确地安排，我已经很久没有做过任何即兴的事情了。

Um, I was like much more carefree. Like when we started OpenAI, I was just like, you know, I had a very easy life at the time. I had a lot of hobbies and you know now I'm like incredibly precisely scheduled and I have not gotten to do anything spontaneous in a long time.

你生活中是否有过这样的时刻：除了你，没有人相信？

Was there any point ever in your life where nobody else was convinced but just you?

推出 ChatGPT 就是一个例子。并不是人们不想推出聊天机器人，而是大多数人认为为时过早，还不够好。

Launching ChatGPT was kind of an example of that. Not that people didn't want to launch a chatbot, but most people thought it was too early and not good enough.

当你和其他人交谈时，他们有时会告诉你你是在妄想吗？

When you talk to other people, do they tell you that you're delusional sometimes?

是的，但我觉得我可能应该得到更多这样的反馈。

Yes, but I think I should probably get more of that.

为什么？

Why?

嗯，很多像我这样角色的人出问题的一个方式就是他们被太多的唯唯诺诺者包围。

Well, one way that like a lot of people in roles like mine have had things go wrong is they get surrounded by too many yes-men.

你经历了人们起诉你，人们退出。政府试图了解关于你的很多事情。经历了这一切，你作为一个人改变了吗？

You've gone through like people suing you, people dropping out. There's government like trying to find out so many things about you. Have you changed as a person with all of this now?

任何人想要构建超级智能，都不可能没有疯狂的生活，但我觉得我天生适合这个。就像我能应对周围很多疯狂的事情。

There's no way that anyone was going to like get to build superintelligence and not have a crazy life, but I think I'm kind of like well-wired for it. Like I can deal with a lot of insanity whipping around me.

当我和美国的人交谈时，他们对 AI 有点悲观。而当我与印度的人交谈时，他们非常乐观。

When I talk to somebody in US, they're slightly pessimistic about AI. And when I talk to people in India, they're very optimistic about it.

这是一个不可思议的差异。印度就像我们在世界上最大的市场。

It's an incredible difference. India is like our biggest market in the world.

你认为为什么会有这种差异？

Why do you think it's the difference?

一个原因是，发展更快的国家，经济增长更快，对产品和服务有更多需求，并且比更发达的经济体更欢迎 AI。所以，我确信这是部分原因。

One thing that countries that are developing faster where the economy is growing faster and there's like more of a need for products and services and are more welcoming of AI than more developed economies. So, I'm sure that's part of it.

你认为你今天仍然被误解吗？

Do you think you're still being misunderstood today?

这项技术仍然没有被很好地理解，但我认为人们至少明白 AI 正在全世界发生。这无疑是我见过的最好的创办新公司的时机。

This technology is still not very well understood, but I think people at least understand AI is happening worldwide. This is like certainly the best time I've ever seen to make a new company.

你担心 OpenAI 吗？

Do you worry about it, OpenAI?

是的，当然。

Yeah, of course.

你最大的担忧是什么？

What's your biggest worry?

我们已经做了一些事情。我们将继续做一些将成为社会中非凡力量的事情。我相信它可以成为一股向善的力量。但你知道，这风险极高，我们肩负着很多责任。

We have done something. We will continue to do something that is going to be an extraordinary force in society. I believe it can be a force for good. But you know it's like very high stakes and we have like a lot of responsibility.

你是否觉得当你离开后，你不在那里指导或保护你的孩子或家人？你会很放心你的孩子在你今天帮助创造的 AI 驱动的世界中成长吗？

Do you feel that when you're gone you're not there to guide or protect your kids or family? Would you be very comfortable your kids growing up in AI powered world which you're helping create today?

你知道，当我和美国随便一个人聊起 AI 时，他们多少有点悲观。而我和印度人聊时，他们非常乐观。

You know when I talk to somebody in the US, a random person, they're slightly pessimistic about AI. And when I talk to people in India, they're very optimistic about it.

这差异令人难以置信。

It's an incredible difference.

你觉得为什么会有这种差异？

Why do you think it's the difference?

嗯，首先，按触达用户数算，印度大概是我们全球最大的市场，而且增长非常快。那里有令人难以置信的构建者能量，人们都在使用它。

Well, first of all, India is like our biggest market in the world by touch users and growing very quickly. And there's incredible builder energy of people using it.

比美国还大？

Bigger than US?

是的，印度比美国更大。人们正以令人难以置信的方式使用它来创办公司。比如我刚听说有个印度孩子需要为学校筹款，他以前从未做过筹款，但用我们的一套工具就把整个流程都搞定了，太棒了。所以我认为这是一个采用率很高的国家，增长非常快。但我确实认为，至少从表达出的偏好来看，美国对 AI 的态度相对于世界其他地方异常负面，而印度可能异常积极。

Yeah, more just India than the US. And I mean people are just using it in incredible ways to build companies. Or you know, I just heard about some Indian kid that needed to do some fundraising for his school and had never done fundraising before, and was able to get the full stack of it done with a set of our tools, and it was awesome. So I think it's a country that has a lot of adoption. It's growing very quickly. But I do think that the US, at least on expressed preference, is unusually negative on AI relative to the rest of the world, and India is maybe unusually positive.

但为什么？你怎么看？为什么会有这种差异？

But why? Like what do you make out of it? Why is it? Why there's difference?

很多人观察到的一点是，发展更快的国家，经济增长更快，对产品和服务的需求更大，供应严重不足，这些国家比更发达的经济体更欢迎 AI。所以我确信这是部分原因。

One thing that many people have observed is that countries that are developing faster, where the economy is growing faster and there's more of a need for products and services and there's just huge under supply, are more welcoming of AI than more developed economies. So I'm sure that's part of it.

有意思。另外，当我在美国读到关于你的报道，在印度读到关于你的报道，这种悲观和乐观的情绪也反映了你。最引人注目的是，你是我们这个时代最非凡的技术革命的发起者。你是第一人。你甚至不持有自己公司的股权。然而突然间你成了坏人。怎么会？为什么？

Interesting. And the other thing when I read about you, right, like I read about you in US and I read about you in India, this sentiment of being pessimistic and optimistic, it also reflects about you. And that's the most fascinating thing that you're this person who started this most remarkable technological revolution here of our age. You were the first guy. You don't even own equity in your own company. And yet all of a sudden you became the bad guy. Like how? Why?

嗯，我认为美国对掌权者有着强烈的怀疑，尤其是对科技行业所掌握的庞大权力。但你知道，我想说这在某些方面可能是件好事。不过我觉得它有点过头了。

Well, I think the US has great skepticism of people in power and in particular of the just enormous power that the tech industry holds. But you know, I would say like this is probably a good thing in some ways. It does feel to me like it's gone a little far.

在我看来，这栋楼里的其他人也都觉得这显而易见。我的意思是，也许我们觉得自己有点妄想，因为我们想，怎么可能有人看不到这一点？我觉得这件事几乎让人觉得太容易了。几乎让人觉得太不可思议了。你看着这些神经网络犯的错误，你会说，这么笨的东西不可能仅仅通过扩大规模就解决所有问题。似乎所有聪明人都在说，你必须要有符号表示，或者你必须这样做，或者我可以给你一个非常好的理由。

It seemed so obvious to me and everybody else in the building. I mean, maybe we felt delusional because we were like, how can anybody not see this? I think there was something about it that almost felt too easy. It almost felt too unfathomable. You'd look at the mistakes that these neural networks were making and you would say, there's no way that something so dumb can just fix all of its problems by scaling it up. It seemed like all these smart people were saying you have to have symbolic representations or you have to do this, or I can give you this very good reason.

我记得有人阐述了为什么我们的方法永远行不通，听起来非常有说服力。

I remember someone articulating why our approach was never going to work and it sounded so convincing.

是什么？

What was it?

大概是这样的：这些模型所做的是，它们学习从训练集中的内容预测接下来可能是什么。但这意味着它们永远无法创造新知识，因为它们只能对训练集中的内容建模。这听起来非常合理。也许你可以给模型看一百万道数学题，它可以学会如何做这些数学题，但你没有给它看一个尚未被证明的新事物，因为那还不为人所知，所以它无法做到。显然现在我们知道那是荒谬的。但当时听起来非常有说服力。它忽略的是，这些模型学到的不是——我的意思是，也是——但重要的是，它们学到的不是这些具体的数学题，而是通用的推理能力，而这种能力可以扩展到新事物。

It went something like: all right, what these models are doing is they are learning to predict from what's in their training set what's likely to come next. But that means they're never going to be able to make new knowledge because they can only model what's in their training set. And that sounds very reasonable. Maybe you can show a model a million math problems and it can learn how to do those math problems, but you didn't show it a new thing that wasn't yet proven because it wasn't yet known, and so it wasn't going to be able to do that. And obviously now we know that's ridiculous. But at the time it sounded very compelling. And the thing that it was missing is that what these models are learning is not—I mean, also is—but the important thing they're learning is not these specific math problems but the general-purpose ability of reasoning, and that can expand into new things.

那么，带我回到一个具体的决定，当时你在做所有这些事情，而其他人告诉你，嘿，这可能永远不会成功。告诉我一个你带着 50% 确定性和 50% 妄想做出的重大决定。

So take me to a specific decision when you were doing all of this and other people were telling you that hey this might never work out right. Tell me to one take me to one consequential decision that you took with 50% certainty and 50% delusion.

在我们完成训练 GPT-4 之后。大约是在 2022 年 8 月。

After we finished training GPT-4. This was about, I think it was August of 2022.

好的。

Okay.

我们在向世界发布它之前大约七八个月完成了训练。差不多是这样。但我们当时按兵不动，我们看着它，我们知道它非同寻常。但我们花了一点时间才意识到这将开辟的新研究途径，以及 GPT-4 之后模型可能改进的速度，还有我们可以做后来成为思维链工作和推理模型的事情。然后我们决定在算力上押下非常大的赌注，因为我们看到我们可以继续扩展模型，而这些模型的价值将非常重要。但这是新事物，世界其他地方还没跟上。他们甚至还没见过 GPT-4。他们还没有内化我们认为它能做的事情。所以我们决定把公司押在购买大量算力上。这对人们来说显得非常疯狂。但我们有足够的信念，认为我们可能是对的，因为我们能够使用这个模型，而且我们已经内化了 Scaling（规模扩张）的特性。

And we finished it about seven or eight months before we released it to the world. Something like that. But we were sitting on it and we were looking at it and we knew it was extraordinary. But it took us a little while to realize just like the new avenues of research this was going to open up and how quickly the models were likely to improve post GPT-4 and that we could do what became the chain of thought work and the reasoning models. And we then decided we were going to go make a very big bet on compute because we saw that we could continue to scale models and that the value of these models would be really important. But it was new and the rest of the world wasn't there yet. They hadn't even seen GPT-4. They had not internalized what we thought it could do. And so we decided we would bet the company on buying up a lot of compute. And that felt very crazy to people. But we had enough conviction that we were probably right because we were able to use this model and we had internalized the scaling properties.

那另一个选择是什么？你有一个雄心小得多的算力赌注和更慢的 Scaling（规模扩张）速度。

And what was the other option? You had a much less ambitious bet on compute and a slower rate of scaling.

是的。

Yes.

你认为如果当时你获得任何其他信息，你会改变决定吗？

And do you think if any amount of other information you would have gotten at that point, you would have changed the decision?

我认为如果模型哪怕稍微不那么聪明，你知道，如果 GPT-4 出来时只有 GPT-3.8 的规模，我们就不会有信念去做这么大的赌注。

I think if the model were even a little bit less smart, you know, if GPT-4 had come out at like the GPT-3.8 scale, we would not have had the conviction to do such a big bet.

当你和其他人交谈时，他们有时甚至今天还会告诉你你在妄想吗？

When you talk to other people, do they tell you that you're delusional sometimes even today?

是的，但我认为我可能应该得到更多这样的反馈。

Yes, but I think I should probably get more of that.

为什么？

Why?

嗯，我认为很多像我这样角色的人出问题的一个方式是，他们被太多的唯唯诺诺者包围。你真的需要有人反驳你。

Well, I think one way that a lot of people in roles like mine have had things go wrong is they get surrounded by too many yes-men. And you really need the pushback.

但你怎么确保今天你没有被唯唯诺诺者包围？

But how do you make sure that today you are not surrounded with yes men?

让老朋友在身边非常有帮助。有和你共事过 10 多年的人非常有用。然后真正培养一种文化，当你错了时，奖励那些大力反驳你的人，并让这样做变得容易。我认为这也很重要。但这需要主动的关怀。你知道，你越多次正确，你在世界上拥有的权力越大，我认为这越难获得。

Having your old friends around is very helpful. Having people that you've worked with for, you know, 10 plus years is very useful. And then really cultivating a culture where you reward people for pushing back hard when you're wrong and making that easy to do. I think is also important. But it takes active care. You know, the more times that you've been right and the more sort of power in the world you have, I think the harder this is to get.

看，作为创始人，这里有个困惑。所以当你身边都是老朋友、非常聪明的人、你想到的导师，你让他们在你身边，他们告诉你，嘿，这是错的，你在往错误的方向思考。那你如何说服他们，或者可能只是违背他们？你今天怎么知道违背他们是对的？因为我确信这会发生。

See, here's the confusion as a founder. So when you have like all old friends, really smart people, the mentors that you think about, you have them around you and they're telling you that, hey, this is wrong and you're thinking in the wrong direction. How do you then convince them or probably just go against them? And how do you know that going against them is the right thing today? Because I'm sure this happens.

我违背所有人建议做事的次数非常少。会发生，但很罕见。我遇到过一些人，尤其是创始人，他们最自豪的是在所有人都告诉他们错了的时候做某事。我自己的信念是，你应该非常不情愿地这样做。如果你身边都是聪明人，你应该 mostly 听他们的。如果你决定，即使他们都不认为你做的事是对的，你还是要做，你应该把这看作一件代价高昂、不太可能正确、高风险的事情。你真的需要对那有信念。

The number of times that I do something against everyone else's advice is very small. It happens, but it's rare. And I have met some people, and founders in particular, who take the most pride in doing something when everyone else tells them it's wrong. And my own belief is you should only do that very grudgingly. If you surround yourself by smart people, you should mostly listen to them. And if you decide that even though none of them think what you're doing is the right thing to do and you're going to do it anyway, you should view that as an expensive, unlikely to be right, high-stakes thing. And you really want to have conviction on that.

谈到聪明人和其他创始人，你怎么看？是什么阻止了他们？他们很聪明，显然很聪明。是什么阻止他们建立像你所做的这样非凡的东西？

And talking about smart people and other founders, what do you think? What stops them? They're intelligent, clearly intelligent. What stops them to build such extraordinary things like you've done?

嗯，我认为 AI 只发生过一次。所以，我认为我们在问题选择上运气好或做得好或其他什么。但我认为很多人建立了非凡的东西。现在伟大公司被创造的速度，我从未见过全世界范围内这么高。我认为这无疑是我见过的最好的时代。我相信这可能是历史上建立某样东西、创建新公司、创造新技术、创造新类型创意项目的最好时机。我们刚刚得到了这份难以置信的礼物，我认为人们现在做的事情令人难以置信。所以，我认为我们将看到很多非常非凡的东西——公司和其他——被建立起来。

Well, I think AI has happened only once. So, I think we got lucky or did a good job or whatever on problem selection. But I think a lot of people build extraordinary things. The rate of great companies being created right now, I have never seen it be so high worldwide. I think this is certainly the best time I've ever seen. I believe it is probably the best time in history to be able to build something, to make a new company, to make a new technology, to make a new kind of creative project. We have just gotten this unbelievable gift and I think it's incredible what people are doing right now. So, I think we're going to see a lot of very extraordinary things—companies and otherwise—get built.

现在每个人都在创业，有太多事情在发生，行动正在进行。有些正在观看的创始人会想，因为 AI 和技术，对我来说显而易见的事情，对很多人来说并不明显。那个人如何判断这是正确的事情，并且没有被误解？

So now that everyone's building companies and there are so many things happening, the action is happening, some founders watching this right now are thinking that things that are obvious to me because of AI and technology are not obvious to a lot of people. How can that person judge that it's the right thing to do and it's not being misunderstood?

我的意思是，这有点像你作为创始人应该做的事，对吧？如果你要创办你能创办的最有雄心的公司，你肯定会被人误解。

I mean, this is kind of what you get paid to do as a founder, right? This is where if you are starting the most ambitious company you could start, you'll certainly be misunderstood.

是的。

Yeah.

现在，有许多其他公司显然是好的想法，你仍然可以在这些公司取得巨大成功，但如果想法是显而易见的，许多其他有雄心的人也会开始做。所以当我们在 2015 年创办 OpenAI 时，我想你可以用一只手数出那年成立的 AGI 实验室的数量。我的意思是，也许你可以用远少于一只手数出来。也许那一年只有 OpenAI。我不确定。然而可能有大约 1 万家照片分享公司。大多数人认为创办照片分享公司是更好的主意。但问题是有 1 万家其他公司，而且 Instagram 有巨大的网络效应等等。所以我认为选择那些你有理由相信比看起来更有价值的事情，即使它们不太可能成功。所以如果它们成功，价值很高，期望值很好。当你找到这样的东西时，你有真正的优势。当你比其他人更早理解一项技术或一门科学或世界的某些事情时，有一种本能，我理解，会说：‘啊，你知道，有这么多聪明人，我不想让他们说我傻，所以你不懂，他们会说服我放弃。’但我认为有另一种本能，我鼓励人们培养，那就是如果你真正理解某件事，而且不仅仅是一厢情愿的想法，但你能阐明为什么这是一个好赌注，你应该珍惜那些时刻。就像作为建设者，那太棒了。那是你应该最兴奋的时候。

Now, there are many other companies that are obviously good ideas and you can still succeed big time at those, but if the ideas are obvious, a lot of other ambitious people are going to start them, too. So when we started OpenAI in 2015, I think you could count on one hand the number of AGI labs that were being started that year. I mean, maybe you could count it on much less than one hand. Maybe it was only OpenAI that year. I'm not sure. And yet there were probably like 10,000 photo sharing companies. Most people thought starting a photo sharing company was a better idea. But the problem is there were 10,000 others and also Instagram had a big network effect and whatever else. So I think picking things that you have a reason to believe are more valuable than they seem, even if they're unlikely to work. So valuable if they work that the expected value is good. You have a real advantage when you find something like that. When you understand a technology or a piece of science or something about the world before other people do, there's some instinct which I understand to say, 'Ah, you know, there's all these smart people and I don't want them to call me dumb, so they don't get it and they're going to talk me out of it.' But I think there's another instinct which I encourage people to cultivate, which is if you really understand something and it's not just wishful thinking, but you can articulate why it's a good bet, you should cherish those moments. Like that's awesome as a builder. That's when you should be the most excited.

你如何决定？你如何找到非共识的赌注？

How do you decide that? How do you find a non-consensus bet?

好问题。我自己的经验是，这是从来没有人教过我的事情。你知道，我在学校的经历很少是弄清楚该问什么问题。你学会回答别人的问题，然后到了某个时候，比如当你成为博士生之类的，你开始问更多问题，最终你做得越来越多。我认为我们应该更加注重教人们，教非常年轻的人弄清楚该问什么问题，以及哪些我们不知道的事情值得探索。我认为擅长这项技能是我找到那种非共识赌注的最佳方式。

Good question. I like my own experience of this was this was one thing that just no one ever taught me. And you know like very little of my experience in school was figuring out what questions to ask. You figure out how to answer other people's questions and then at some point I think like when you become a PhD student or whatever you get to start asking more questions and then eventually you do more and more of that. I think we should focus much more on teaching people, teaching very young people to figure out what questions to ask and what things are interesting to explore that we don't already know. And I think getting good at that skill was the best way that I figured out the sort of non-consensus bets to take.

就是弄清楚如何问好问题。

Just figuring out how to ask good questions.

弄清楚如何问好问题。

Figuring out how to ask good questions.

你能学会吗？

Can you learn that?

我认为可以。是的。我的意思是，像所有这些事情一样，也许不是每个人对每件事都有同等天赋，但我认为这是很多人似乎能够学会的。你知道，我忘了是哪种文化、哪个国家有这条规则，孩子放学回家时，母亲问孩子：你今天问了什么问题？

I think so. Yeah. I mean like all of these things, maybe not everybody is going to have equal aptitude for everything, but I think this is one that a lot of people seem to be able to learn. You know, there's I forget which culture, which country has this rule where the kid when he comes back from school, the mother asks the kid that what's the question that you asked today?

真的吗？

Really?

是的。

Yeah.

你知道是什么文化吗？那很有趣。你知道是什么文化吗？

Do you know what culture? That's very interesting. You know what culture?

我想是以色列之类的。以色列的某个人。我不确定，但有一种文化，母亲只是问孩子，她们不问亮点，她们问的是：你今天问了什么问题？

I think it's Israel or something. Someone in Israel. I'm not sure but there is some culture where mothers just ask the kids they don't ask about the highlight they ask about the what's one question did you ask today.

那很酷。

That's cool.

这是一个好习惯吗，我们

Is that a good habit that we

我要开始对我的孩子这样做。我 15 年后左右会回来汇报。

I'm going to start that with my kids. I'll report back in 15 years or something.

但你怎么知道这不是一厢情愿？有迹象吗？有什么你可以确定并说‘好吧，如果这些是思考中的信号，我思考的方式，可能这有道理’？

But how do you know that it's not wishful thinking? Is there a sign? Is there something that you can pin down and be like, 'Okay, if these are the signals in the thinking, the way I'm thinking, probably this makes sense'?

是的。我的意思是，一件事是你能向一个乐观、热情但思维上自律的聪明朋友解释它，并且你能让他们更新为什么这可能是一个好赌注吗？所以，我记得当我们创办 OpenAI 时，默认是强烈怀疑，但我会和人交谈，我会说，你知道，这是证据。这是我们看到的。这是为什么这可能有效。这是为什么如果它有效会巨大。这是为什么我们认为这种方法有潜力，然后，你知道，如果我们能制造超级智能，那为什么制造它有价值是显而易见的。而且你知道，不是每次，但足够多的时候，当我们和某个聪明但非专家的人交谈时，他们会说：‘好吧，那似乎——你让我更新了。那似乎值得做。’现在，如果我们说服了所有人，那可能太明显了。但如果我们根本无法说服任何人，我会更怀疑。

Yeah. I mean one thing is can you explain it to an optimistic, enthusiastic but kind of mentally disciplined smart friend and can you update them about why it might be a good bet? So, I remember when we were starting OpenAI, the default was like strongly skeptical, but I would talk to people and I would say, you know, here's the evidence. Here's what we've seen. Here's why this might work. Here's why it'd be huge if it worked. And here's why this is an approach that we think has legs and then, you know, if we can make superintelligence, it was kind of obvious why that would be valuable to make. And you know, not every time, but enough of the time when we talked to somebody who was like a smart person but a non-expert, they would say, 'Okay, that seems you can that updated me. That seems like it's worth doing.' Now, if we had convinced everybody, it probably would have been too obvious. But if we had not been able to convince anyone at all, I would have been more skeptical.

有趣。现在，当我大声说出来时，我在想一定有历史例子，有人无法说服任何人，但他们仍然是对的。所以，在某个时候，你只能相信自己的直觉。你生活中是否有过这样的时刻：除了你，没有人被说服？

Interesting. Now, as I'm saying that out loud, I'm thinking of there must be historical examples of where someone was not able to convince anyone and they were still right. So, at some point, you got to just like trust your own instincts here. Was there any point ever in your life where nobody else was convinced but just you?

我的意思是，有过一些小决定，比如‘公开——我打算做这件事，而领导团队的其他人都不想做。’

I mean, there have been like small decisions where I was like, 'Open I was going to do this thing and none of the rest of the leadership team wanted to.'

给我一个例子。

Give me an example.

嗯，推出 ChatGPT 就是一个例子。并不是人们不想推出聊天机器人，但大多数人认为为时过早，而且不够好。

Um, launching ChatGPT was kind of an example of that. Not that people didn't want to launch a chatbot, but most people thought it was too early and not good enough.

有趣。是什么让你违背所有他们的意见，说‘嘿，我们就推出它吧’？YC 的磨砺。

Interesting. And what made you go against all of them and be like, 'Hey, let's just launch it'? The YC ground.

我想是——是的，我想是 YC 的经历。我想是的。就像我真的花了很长时间向创始人灌输：如果你对第一个版本不感到有点尴尬，那说明你等得太久才推出，因为你需要的是反馈。另一件事是我有——因为我们有这个内部版本，这实际上是一个很好的洞察。内部版本的留存率很糟糕。我想大约是 5% 左右的人会使用并继续使用 ChatGPT 的第一个版本。现在有很多原因说明这首先是糟糕的数据。我们有更好的模型，我们有其他界面。但很多人会看着它说，你不能推出一个留存率 5% 的产品。那太糟糕了。通常这是真的。但然后你会和那 5% 的用户交谈，其中一些人真的很喜欢它。

I think it was the Yeah, I think it was I think it was the YC experience. I think so. Like I had really I had spent so long drilling it into founders that if you're not a little embarrassed of your first version, you're waiting too long to launch because what you need is feedback. The another thing that I had cuz we had this like internal version and this actually a good insight. The retention was terrible of their internal version. I think it was like you know 5% or something of the first version of ChatGPT people would use and keep using. Now there's a bunch of reasons why it was bad data in the first place. We had better models, we had other interfaces. But many people would look at that and say you can't launch a product with 5% retention. That's terrible. And normally that's true. But then you would talk to those 5% of users and some of them like really loved it.

还有另一个 YC 的经验，对于初始项目来说更重要的是：一小群真正热爱它的人，而不是很多只是有点喜欢它的人。所以尽管内部 ChatGPT 原型的留存数据很低，但喜欢它的人真的用得很多，也真的很喜欢它。我觉得这是一个非常好的信号。

And there's this other YC learning, which is the more important thing for an initial project: a small number of people that really love something, not a lot of people that like it a little bit. And so although the retention numbers of the internal ChatGPT prototype were very low, the people who liked it really used it a lot and really liked it. And I thought that was a very good sign.

你刚才说的第一点其实是两件不同的事，对吧？第一是感到尴尬。就像如果你对自己的第一个产品不感到尴尬，那你就太晚了，对吧？即使今天，你也能接受尴尬吗？

And the first thing you said was two different things, right? The first was being embarrassed. Like if you're not embarrassed about your first product, then you're too late, right? Are you okay with being embarrassed even today?

是的，你能接受被误解，也能接受尴尬。

Yes, you're okay with being misunderstood and you're okay with being embarrassed.

嗯。

Yeah.

我的意思是，听着，我希望我们推出伟大的产品，但我也乐意推出一些早期的草图来获取反馈和学习，不是所有都会成功。但公司现在的规模并没有改变什么，因为有足够多的用户信任你——

I mean, look, I want us to put out great products, but I'm happy for us to put out some early sketches to get feedback and learn, and not all of them will work. But nothing changes with the scale of your company now because enough users trust you for—

我是说，我们向整个 ChatGPT 用户群推出的东西必须有一个很高的门槛，而且现在公司——这已经接近关键基础设施了，公司非常依赖这个——所以我们发布的企业产品有一个非常非常高的标准。好吧。所以现在情况已经变了。

I mean things that we put out to like all of the entire ChatGPT user base have to have like a high threshold and also now that companies—I mean this is like getting close to critical infrastructure, companies are really reliant on this—and so for enterprise products we ship there's like a very, very high bar. Okay. So now things have changed now.

但我们仍然可以尝试其他——你知道，我希望你们会看到我们尝试许多新产品。有些会真正让你惊喜并进入核心体验，有些人们看了会说，理论上很酷，但不太适合我。

But then we can still experiment with other—you know, I think hopefully you'll see us experiment with many new products. Some of which will really delight you and make it into the core experience, and some of which people will look at and say, you know, it seems cool in theory, but it doesn't really fit for me.

有意思。另外我们刚才在谈被误解。你觉得今天你仍然被误解吗？

Interesting. And the other thing is we're talking about being misunderstood. Do you think you're still being misunderstood today?

我觉得现在大多数世人看着 AI 说，好吧，我相信这事会发生。显然它并非人人欢迎。我认为我们对世界的愿景，以及我们希望人们如何使用这个工具、这项技术，仍然没有被很好地理解。但至少人们明白 AI 正在发生。

I think at this point most of the world looks at AI and says, okay, I believe this thing is going to happen. Now clearly it's not all popular. And I think our vision for the world and what we hope for how people will use this tool, this technology, is still not very well understood. But I think people at least understand AI is happening.

好。有意思。让我们回到你尝试做非凡之事的话题，对吧？你也押注其他人。你在谈 YC，对吧？还有一句话，你只写过——我转述一下——大概是你的意志去弯曲现实或弯曲世界。那个特定东西的百分比很高。大多数人甚至不尝试。类似这样的话你说过。你记得吗？

Okay. Interesting. Let's come back to you trying to do something extraordinary, right? And you taking bets on other people as well. And you're talking about YC, right? There's another quote which you have only written—I'm paraphrasing—and it's something like your will to bend reality or your will to bend the world. The percentage of that particular thing is really high. Most people don't even try. Something like that you said. Do you remember?

我记得类似的话。是的。

I remember something like this. Yeah.

就像大多数人甚至不尝试。

Like most people don't even try.

我觉得更像是弯曲现实。你能做到的比你想象的多得多，或者人们能做的比他们想象的多得多，而大多数人尝试得不够。大概是这样。

I think it's more like bending the reality. You can do it much more than you think, or people can do it much more than they think, and most people don't try enough. Something like that.

嗯。那你觉得为什么人们不采取登月行动？

Yeah. And why do you think people don't take the moonshot?

我有很多理论，但很多归结为人们想留在群体中，不做不寻常的事更舒服，也许失败，也许看起来错了，也许看起来愚蠢。而且有真正的——很容易指出进化生物学的原因来解释为什么这是真的，比如你不想被踢出部落之类的。但我认为人们有非常强烈的压力不去做那种事，只是因为社会的构建方式。

I have a bunch of theories on this, but many of them boil down to people want to stay part of the herd, and it's more comfortable to not do something unusual and maybe fail or maybe look wrong or maybe look dumb. And there's a real—it's easy to point to the evolutionary biology reasons of why this would be true, like you don't want to get kicked out of the tribe or whatever. But I think people have really strong pressures to not do that kind of stuff just because of the way society is built.

我是说，甚至不止如此，我认为社会之所以这样构建是因为进化压力，而且我认为这对我们大多数人来说可能根深蒂固。

I mean, even more than that, I think society is built the way it is because of evolutionary pressure, and I think that's probably very deep for most of us.

那你内心有什么？你内心有什么帮助你弯曲这个意志或按照你的意志弯曲世界？

And what was in you? What was there in you which helped you bend this will or the world according to your will?

我觉得像很多科技人一样，我一直都有——这在许多其他情境下会是负面——就是少一点那种留在轨道上、和别人做同样事情的内部压力。我有点认为这主要是基因的事。

I think like a lot of tech people I've always just had, which would be a negative in many other contexts, like a little bit less of whatever that internal pressure to stay on the track and do the same thing as other people. And I kind of think that's probably mostly a genetic thing.

只是基因？你不认为还有其他你正在构建的东西吗？

Just genetic? You don't think there's any other thing that you're building?

哦，我肯定还有其他东西。但你知道，你可以找到所有这些研究，关于轻微自闭的人往往更可能发明新科学，或者只是痴迷于一个想法，在实验室里不顾一切地超级努力。

Oh, I'm sure there's other things, too. But you know, you can find all these studies about how people that are slightly autistic tend to be more likely to invent new science or just get obsessed with one idea and work super hard in the lab against all the odds for it.

嗯。那对你来说，弯曲意志的时刻是什么？

Yeah. And what was the will-bending moment for you?

我是说，可能是创办 OpenAI。希望——现在说还太早，但我认为那可能是我做过的最重要的事。

I mean, probably starting OpenAI. Like, hopefully—it's too early to say, but I think that'll probably be the most important thing I ever did.

你担心它吗？

Do you worry about it?

担心什么？

About?

嗯。关于 OpenAI？

Yeah. About OpenAI?

是的，当然。

Yeah, of course.

你最大的担忧是什么？

What's your biggest worry?

我是说，我们将要做一些事——或者已经做了一些事——并将继续做一些事，这将成为社会中一股非凡的力量。我相信它可以成为一股向善的力量，净效果将是向善的，巨大的善，但你知道，这风险极高，我们肩负着很大的责任。

I mean, we are going to do something—or we have done something—and will continue to do something that is going to be an extraordinary force in society. I believe it can be a force for good, and it will be a force for good on net, great good, but you know, it's very high stakes and we have a lot of responsibility.

确实。你知道，这让我想到你写的一篇文章，开头是关于超级智能的。嗯。

True. You know, this takes me to the point where you wrote an essay which was in the beginning about superintelligence. Yeah.

对。

Right.

在那篇文章之后，那年五月，你写信给 Elon 谈了这件事，你说如果除了 Google 之外还有别人启动它就好了，对吧？

And after that essay, during that May, you wrote to Elon about it and you said something like it would be good if someone else apart from Google started it, right?

所以你说，人类持续生存的最大威胁，最大的威胁将是超级智能。

So you said like the biggest threat for continued human existence, the biggest threat is going to be superintelligence.

对。为什么你认为如果你来启动它，威胁就会小一些？

Right. Why do you think that if you started it makes less of a threat?

嗯，我相信多元化。我也不认为只有我们拥有它是好事。我认为有两种相当卡通化的方式会让事情严重出错。

Well, I believe in pluralism. I don't think only us having it is good either. I think there are two kind of cartoonish ways this goes really wrong.

好。

Okay.

一是对 AI 失去控制，我们有意或无意地把未来的控制权交给比我们强大得难以置信的系统，而且我们无法收回。另一个是某个人、公司或国家相对于其他所有人变得过于强大。我认为那非常不稳定。我认为对世界来说，有多个 AI 努力以略有不同的方法相互竞争并以不同方式推出，实际上会好得多。你知道，我们之前谈过不喜欢有权势的人。我也不喜欢权力过度集中。我认为那不是行之有效的方式。所以我希望我们不要那样做。

One is that there's a loss of control to AI, and we intentionally or accidentally cede control of the future to systems that are unbelievably more capable than we are and we can't get it back. And the other is like one person or company or country gets way too powerful relative to everybody else. And I think that's very unstable. I think it'd actually be much better for the world for there to be multiple AI efforts with slightly different approaches that are competing with each other and putting out in different ways. And you know, we talked earlier about the dislike of powerful people. I also have this dislike of intense power concentration. I think that's not what works. So I'm hopeful we don't do that.

那么你创办它时也是这么想的吗？一个拥有世界上所有资源的人不应该在今天获得这种权力。

So is that what you were thinking when you started it as well? That someone with all the means in the world should not get this power today.

嗯，至少不应该只有一个。就像你希望我认为有很多努力。

Well, at least there shouldn't be one. Like you want I think many efforts.

好吧。假设现在有太多公司了，对吧？有四五家大公司。他们拥有世界上所有的资本。他们拥有顶尖人才。他们拥有各种技术研究。他们都在努力。你在这方面有什么不公平的优势？

Okay. And let's say now there are like too many, right? There are four, five large companies. They have all the capital in the world. They have the great talent. They have all sorts of technology research. They all are working at it. What's your unfair advantage in this?

嗯，我认为我们拥有最多的用户，以及从芯片到数据中心到模型再到其他相关事物的最佳技术栈，嗯，从而将丰富的智能交到人们手中。呃，我认为我们拥有最好的品牌，以及那些将要使用这项技术的人们所想要的价值观。就像我们希望其他所有人都成功，我认为人们能从我们身上感受到这一点。我们不想成为统治所有人的那一家公司。这要追溯到我们的创立之初。

Um, I think we have, you know, the most users and the best stack from chips to data centers to models to other things that come around that um to to sort of put an abundant put abundant intelligence into people's hands. Uh I think we have the best brand and the sort of the values that people who are going to use this technology want. Like we want everybody else to succeed and I think people can feel that from us. We don't want to be like the one company to rule everybody. This goes back to our founding.

不，我是在说是什么让你成为萨姆。

No, I was talking about what makes you the Sam.

哦，我个人。

Oh me personally.

你认为你的超级优势是什么？

What do you think is your super advantage?

呃，嗯，我做这行时间最长。我的意思是，我猜这并不正确。我猜丹尼斯做这行比我更久。我我我认为我有一个很大的优势，就是有大量时间从头到尾观察这个发展过程，不仅仅是关于如何运营公司的直觉，还有整个生态系统中的人脉。呃，这些真的很有帮助。

Uh, well, I've been doing it the longest. I mean, I guess it's not true. I guess Dennis has been doing it longer than me. I I I think I have like a big advantage of just having had a lot of time to watch this development all the way through and not just for the intuitions about how to run the company, but connections throughout the whole ecosystem. Uh, they really helped there.

有趣。但你一定做对了什么。你说不确定如何运营公司，但你在公司方面做对了一些事情，因为当你被解雇时，有 700 人威胁要辞职。你认为作为创始人你做对了什么，让 700 人——几乎整个公司——都准备好支持你？

Interesting. But you must be doing something right. You said not sure about how to run the company but you're doing something right about the company because when you were fired there were 700 people who threatened to resign. What do you think you did right as a founder that 700 people like almost the entire company is ready to back you?

嗯，我不认为这是任何单一的事情，而且我不认为这甚至主要是关于我。我的意思是，也许我做的事情是我选择了领导团队，并设定了我们如何运营以及如何工作。但呃，我认为我们做得最对的事情是我们建立了一个非凡的人才集合，他们真正被同一个使命所驱动，嗯，拥有非常健康的文化，在需要自信和高信念的地方保持自信和高信念，在其他所有地方保持开放和探索。这这这是一种特殊的文化。我我我认为，当有一天关于 OpenAI 的历史书写成时，我最希望他们谈论的是我们重新发现了那种造就伟大研究实验室的文化，以及为什么这种文化缺失了那么久。

Um I don't think it's any like one thing but and I don't think this is I don't think it's even mostly about me. I mean maybe the thing that I I did is I got to like you know pick the leadership team and sort of set up how we what we run at and how we how we work. But uh I think the thing that we have done most right is we've just built an extraordinary collection of people really motivated by the same mission um with a very healthy culture for the right combination of being sure and high conviction where we need to be that and being open-minded and exploratory everywhere else. And that that that is a special culture. I I I think like the someday when the history books get written on OpenAI, the thing that I hope they talk about the most is our rediscovery of the kind of culture that makes a great research lab and how why that had gone missing for so long.

如果有人是一位年轻创始人，试图建立类似的东西，人们可以从你在这里建立的文化中学到什么？

And what can people learn from the culture that you've built here if someone is a young founder who's trying to build something like this?

嗯，一点是拥有非常高的信念，对你打算做的事情极其清晰。即使你打算做的事情——也许更甚，如果你打算做的事情对大多数人来说听起来很疯狂——你愿意采取那种方式，嗯，以那种方式谈论和思考，对某些人来说非常有吸引力。所以当我们开始时，我们说我们要尝试构建 AGI，这就是我们要推动的方向，以尝试达到那里。但主要的是，我们对 AGI 有一个赌注，如果我们的初始方向被证明是错误的，我们会改变。世界上没有很多其他努力仍然愿意说他们在尝试构建 AGI。我认为甚至 DeepMind 在那个时候也已经停止说他们在尝试这样做了。所以尽管大多数人认为我们疯了，不想与我们联系在一起，我们实际上能够集中所有真正有才华且相信这一点的人。当我回顾近代历史上一些其他伟大的科学和创新项目时，许多都有这个共同点。

Um, one thing is having very high convictions, extreme clarity on what you are setting out to do. And even if what you set out to do, maybe even more so if what you set out to do sounds crazy to most people, the fact that you are willing to take that approach um to talk and think that way is very appealing to some set of people. And so when we started, we said we're going to try to build AGI and this is the direction that we're going to push in to try to get there. But the main thing is that like we have a bet on AGI and if our initial direction turns out to be wrong, we'll change. There were not many other efforts in the world that were still willing to say they were trying to build AGI. I think even Deep Mind at that point had stopped saying they were trying to do it. And so although most people thought we were crazy and didn't want to be associated with us, we were effectively able to concentrate all of the really talented people that also believed in this. And as I've looked at some of the other kind of great science and innovation projects in recent history, many of them have had that in common.

有趣。所以你只是挑选一个极其遥不可及的大问题，并非常清楚地表明你正在着手解决它。这就是你如何建立一家伟大文化公司的方式。

Interesting. So you just pick up like incredibly far-fetched big problem and be very clear about it that you're going at it. That's how you build a great culture company.

也许“遥不可及”不是我会选的词，但就像挑选一个问题，指向一些真正有才华的人真正想做的事情。非常清晰和专注地表明这就是你正在尝试做的事情，不要含糊其辞。不要不要给其他人理由，你知道，不要不要因为有些人会说你疯了或愚蠢或更糟，就试图说服你不要直言不讳。嗯，然后然后你就可以把一群信念非常坚定的人聚集在一起，指向真正重要的事情。

Maybe far-fetched is not what I would pick, but like pick pick a problem that is like point at something that some really talented people really want to work on. Be very clear and focused that that's what you're trying to do and don't hedge. Don't don't kind of like give other people a reason to, you know, don't don't let the fact that you're like some people are going to call you crazy or stupid or worse try to convince you to not to mince your words. Um, and then and then you can get like a very high conviction set of people together pointed at something really important.

但后来你巩固了，就像你吸引了世界上所有的人才，对吧？然后他们中的一些人开始离开，你把这称为 AI 戏剧，像莎士比亚式的。是的。

But then you consolidated like you you attracted all this talent in the world, right? And then they started leaving few of them and you call this like AI drama as a Shakespearean. Yeah.

对。所以假设米拉离开了，伊利亚离开了，达里奥开始了其他事情。埃隆

Right. So let's say Mina left, Ilia left, Dario started something else. Elon

他们也都各自在建立自己的东西。他们也不和，就像每个人都在建立自己的东西。分歧是什么？你们是最早开始的。现在每个人都在建立自己的东西。

they all are also building something of their own. They also don't get along like everybody's building their own thing. What is the disagreement about? You guys were the first ones to start it. Now everybody's building their own thing.

嗯，我我认为在许多人的大脑中会发生一些事情，他们只相信自己来构建这个，因为风险感觉如此之高。

Um I I think there is something that happens in many people's brains where they only trust themselves to build this because the stakes feel so high.

有趣。但那是因为方法，还是只是因为，或者你觉得权力集中在别人手中？他们他们担心这个，还是担心某人的方式。

Interesting. But is that because of the approach or is just like the or do you feel the concentration of power in someone else's hand? They they worry about that or they worry about the way that someone's going.

我认为它们是一起的。嗯，我认为这就像是他的方法很糟糕，所以我不能让权力集中在他手中。类似这样。

I think they go together. Um I think it's somehow like his approach is bad and so I can't let power get concentrated in his hands. Something like that.

这是方法和信任。是的。

It's approach and trust. Yeah.

而不是那个。

Rather than that.

你经历了所有这些。现在这一切让你作为一个人改变了吗？因为你你还年轻。你已经

And you've gone through all of that. Have you changed as a person with all of this now? Because you've you're young. You've

不再那么年轻了。

not that young anymore.

是的。但你经历了人们起诉你，你开始疯狂的事情，人们退出。政府想要了解关于你的那么多事情。

Yeah. But you've gone through like people suing you, you starting something crazy, people dropping out. There's government like to find out so many things about you.

任何人想要构建超级智能而不拥有疯狂的生活是不可能的。嗯，所以我并不那么惊讶。我记得，你知道，早期当我们开始 OpenAI 时，我并没有以任何严肃的方式思考它。嗯，但后来一旦我更清楚地意识到它真的会成功，我记得非常清晰地想，天哪，我的生活会变得非常疯狂，那很糟糕。但我认为我有点天生适合这个。就像我能应对很多在我周围席卷的疯狂。

There's no way that anyone was going to like get to build super intelligence and not have a crazy life. Um, so I'm kind of not that surprised. And I remember, you know, early on I kind of didn't think about it in any serious way when we started OpenAI. Um, but then once it became more clear to me that it was really going to work, I remember like thinking very clearly like, man, my life is going to get very crazy and that sucks. But I think I'm kind of like wellwired for it. Like I can deal with a lot of insanity whipping around me.

你为什么这么说？我的意思是似乎因为 我 我喜欢它 似乎我可以。

Why do you say so? I mean seem that cuz I I like it seems like I can.

你从你开始公司以来就确定吗？

And you were sure about it since you were since you started the company?

我确定我会没事处理它？是的。

I that I was sure I'd be like okay for dealing with it? Yeah.

不。嗯不。

No. Um no.

再说一次，我们刚开始的时候，我不知怎的，即使我理智上意识到如果我们真的成功就会这样，我情感上直到后来才真正接受。你通常會紧张吗？你不会紧张，对吧？我在某个地方读到过。

Again, when we first started, I somehow like even if I intellectually realized that this would happen if we were really successful, I didn't like emotionally sit with it until later. Do you get nervous usually? You don't get nervous, right? I was reading somewhere.

嗯，我的意思是，我以前紧张过，但现在事情变得太疯狂了。感觉我的激活能很高。

Um, I mean, I have gotten nervous before, but now stuff has just gotten so crazy. Feel like my activation energy is very high.

但现在，你还会紧张吗？

But now, do you get nervous at all or no?

会，只是很少。就像那个阈值很高。

Yes, it's just rare. Like it's that's a like the threshold for it is high.

不错。所以，告诉我更多。你什么时候会紧张，什么时候不会？这是件好事。

Nice. So, tell me it's Tell me more. When do you get nervous and when do you not? It's a good thing.

我最后一次记得的是我们即将宣布纳维-斯托克斯结果的时候。我当时就想这太疯狂了，我的意思是这是真的。这就像你知道的一些最难的事情，比人们能做的更难，而 AI 现在正在做，我当时就觉得这是一个疯狂的时刻，我肯定对那次感到紧张。那可能是最后一次真正心跳加速的事情。

The last time I remember it uh was when we were about to announce the Navier Stokes result. I was just like this is like such a crazy I mean this is like the real deal. This is like a you know some of the hardest things that are harder than something that people have been able to do it and AI is now doing and I was just like this feels like a crazy moment and I was I was definitely nervous about that one. That was probably the last like really kind of like heart pounding thing.

那你做什么来恢复正常吗？有没有一些

And do you do anything to get back to normal? Is there some

我以前经常冥想。

I used to meditate a lot.

好的。

Okay.

嗯，有一段时间每天几个小时，现在不了。但如果我真的紧张，我可以很快回到那种状态。

Um like a couple hours a day for a while and now I don't. But if I if I do get nervous, I can like quickly drop back into it.

很快恢复，就像这样，还是你有什么仪式或呼吸法之类的？

Quickly get back like just like this or do you have some ritual or some breath work or something that you do?

嗯，没有。我仍然可以只是坐着闭上眼睛，很快进入冥想状态。

Um no. I can just like sit and close my eyes and like get to a meditative state pretty fast still

在几分钟或几秒内。很多秒但没注意到。

in like minutes or seconds. A lot of seconds but not notice.

是的。

Yeah.

不错。有趣。那么哪个版本的你已经消失了，就像你开始时是谁，现在你成了谁？

Nice. Interesting. So what version of you has died with who like who were you when you started and who have you?

嗯，当我们开始 OpenAI 时，我更加无忧无虑。就像你知道的，我当时生活很轻松。我有很多爱好。你知道，我可能在某个随机的周二晚上临时和朋友共进晚餐。嗯，你知道，现在我的日程安排得非常精确，我已经很久没有做过任何自发的事情了。这很可悲。

Um I was like much more carefree like when we started open. I was just like you know I was like I had a very easy life at the time. I had a lot of hobbies. You know I was like free on a random Tuesday night for dinner on short notice with my friends probably. Um, and you know, now I'm like incredibly precisely scheduled and I have not gotten to do anything spontaneous in a long time. And that's very sad.

那个时刻是什么，你当时想，“好吧，现在我再也不能无忧无虑了。”呃，你什么时候意识到这一点的？

And what was that one moment where you were like, "Okay, now I can't be carefree anymore." Uh, where you got this realization?

人们另一种版本是，人们会问：“你真正怀念旧生活的什么？”上次有人问我这个，我意识到我真正怀念的是在周六下午坐在咖啡店里，拿着一大杯咖啡和笔记本电脑，就像看着世界运转，慢慢处理邮件，但主要是上网浏览。我已经好几年没有这样做了。呃，我不知道为什么那件事会真正跳出来成为我怀念的事情，但我确实怀念那个。

People like another version of this is people like ask like, "What do you really miss about like your old life?" And the last time someone asked me that, the thing that I realized I really miss is like going to sit in a coffee shop on a Saturday afternoon with like a nice big cup of coffee and my laptop and just like watching the world do its thing and like catching up slowly on email, but mostly just scrolling the internet. And I have not gotten to do that in years. And uh and I don't know why like that was the thing to like really jump out at me as the thing I missed, but I do miss that.

有趣。

Interesting.

那你不能再这样做了吗？

And you can't do that anymore?

我的意思是，我可以做，但会有两个保安坐在我旁边的桌子旁，我就不会只是一个世界上的匿名人物了。

I mean, I could do it, but there would be like, you know, two security guys sitting at the tables next to me and like I would not just be like an anonymous person in the world.

对。好的。回到初创公司和我们在谈论的人，我们错过了 YC 的那个帖子，对吧？在 YC 你写道你过去常问人们这有一天如何能成为垄断。你为什么过去常问这个问题？只是初创公司。

Right. Okay. Coming back to the startup and the people that we were talking about and we missed that YC thread, right? In YC you wrote that you used to ask people how this could become monopoly one day. Why you used to ask this question? Just startups.

嗯，我认为我们通常会说护城河会是什么，或者竞争优势会是什么？但这些都是担忧，意思相同，就是如何不让所有利润率被竞争到零。

Um you I think we would usually say like what is what's the moat going to be or what's the competitive advantage going to be? But these are all worries that mean the same thing which is like how do you not have all profit margins get competed to zero.

但当你谈论建立护城河以最终成为垄断时，这是一个重要的问题吗？

But is that an important question to ask to when you when you talk about building a moat in a way that it ends up becoming a monopoly

我认为

I think

从第一天起，因为当你开始创业时你不知道。

from day one because when you start a startup you don't know.

我不认为这是最重要的问题。不，我我正要说我认为它不像我们问的其他问题那么重要。它不是第一个像

I don't think it's the most important question. No, I I was going to say I think it's like I think it's not as important as other questions that we ask. It's not the f like

唯一的问题。

the only question.

甚至不是前几个问题。就像我总是从产品是什么开始？为什么用户需要它？你如何获得更多用户？所以这是战略的一个元素，但我不认为它是最重要的。

Not even the first few questions. Like I I'd always start with just like what is the product? Why do users need it? How you going to get more users? So it's like an element of strategy, but I don't think it's like it's it's definitely not the most important one.

好的。但比如公司达到一定规模后，它重要吗？

Okay. But is it an important one after like let's say company gets to a certain amount of scale then?

是的。我的意思是，我认为某种版本的“你的长期竞争优势会是什么”是一个重要问题。嗯，但不像顶级，它不是最重要的问题。

Yeah. I mean, I think it's some version of the like what is your long-term competitive advantage going to be is an important question. Um, but not like a top it's not the most important question.

它不是。那么，你过去常会见数千家公司，对吧？而且你也有令人难以置信的投资生涯。所以，你选择了这些公司，如 Reddit、Stripe 等。你能在见到创始人 30 到 40 分钟后判断这个人是否能建立公司吗？

It's not. And then if so, you used to meet like thousands of companies, right? And you have had an incredible investing career as well. So, you chose these companies like Reddit, Stripe, bunch of them. Can you tell after meeting a founder in like 30 40 minutes that this person will be able to build a company or not?

不能完美，但是的，我的意思是你可以有相当强的直觉。

Not perfectly but yeah I mean I think you can have like a pretty strong intuition.

那是什么？告诉我你看到了什么？你理解了什么？你看到了什么模式？

What is that? Like tell me what what do you see? What do you understand? What pattern do you see?

嗯，有很多明显的事情我可以说。我会尝试说那些我认为不太被谈论的。如果他们是一个清晰的沟通者，能很好地解释事情，容易理解，这是我寻找的一大特点。嗯，如果我离开会议时确信我想和他们合作，那是我寻找的一大特点，因为你知道早期创始人的工作很大一部分是成为各种方式的传道者，与其他创始人、客户、他们想雇佣的人、投资者等等。所以这是我寻找的东西。嗯，你知道，如果他们能快速想出新的想法并快速改进想法。这是我寻找的东西。嗯，你知道，如果他们似乎对世界有有趣的新颖的、推理充分的思考，我没听过的，那是一个大特点。诸如此类。

Uh one of there's like many obvious things that I could say. I'll try to say the ones that I think don't get talked about as much. If they're like a clear communicator and they can really explain things well and it's easy to follow, this is a huge thing that I look for. um if I leave the meeting like convinced that I want to work with them um that's a huge thing I look for because you know a big part of the job of a of a early stage founder is to be an evangelist in all these different ways with founder with other founders with customers uh with people they're trying to hire um with investors so that's something that I I look for um you know if if they can like come up with new ideas quickly and improve on ideas quickly. That's a thing that I look for. Um, you know, if they seem to have like interesting new well-reasoned talk thoughts on the world I haven't heard before, that's a big one. Things like that.

有趣。但即使在这些之后，很多企业家谈论的一件事是痛苦承受能力。你能判断吗？

Interesting. But even after all of this, there's one thing that a lot of entrepreneurs talk about is pain, enduring capacity. Can you judge that?

我认为在 30 分钟的会议中很难直接判断。你可以问人们，我有时会这样做，比如他们生活历史中表明这一点的东西。嗯，但我认为很难判断那种内部对话。你必须依赖他们讲的故事。只是

I think that's hard to judge directly in a 30-minute meeting. you can ask people for, and I used to do this sometimes, like stuff in their life history that points that out. Um, but I think it's hard to tell that like internal conversation. You have to rely on stories they tell. It's just

你能判断某人在撒谎还是说真话，当他们告诉你一些关于他们承受了一定痛苦的故事时？

And can you judge someone's lying or tr or is telling you truth when they tell you some story about they've endured certain amount of pain?

这就是我的意思。我认为这很难，是的。

This is what I mean. I think this is like hard to Yeah.

那你呢？你觉得你身上有什么特质，能让你承受 99% 的人都承受不了的痛苦？

And what about you? What do you think is in you, what amount of pain you can endure that 99% of the people will not?

我不觉得这相对于我见过的其他一些创始人来说是我最大的优势，但我确实非常愿意坚持自己相信的事情，一直做下去。

I don't think this is like my biggest advantage relative to some other founders I've seen, but I am really willing to stick with something I believe in and just keep going.

你脑子里想到的另一个创始人是谁？

And who's the other founder that came into your head?

我没有特别想到某一个。

I didn't have like a particular one.

好吧，你就这么随口一说。但你认识那种特别能扛、能一直死磕的人吗？

Okay, you just said it just like that. But do you know anyone who has really good pain-enduring capacity and they can just be at it?

我一时也说不出一个具体的名字，但这些年我确实被很多 YC 创始人打动过，他们在几乎没有成功信号、资源也极其有限的情况下，就是硬扛着往前磨。

I don't have like one specific name ready to go here, but yeah, I was definitely impressed by many YC founders over the years who would just grind it out without much signal of success and with very little in the way of resources.

那他们之间有没有什么共同模式，比如 Stripe、Reddit，除了他们都善于沟通之外？

And is there a pattern between all of them, Stripe, Reddit, apart from them being good communicators?

我觉得这些都是很多创始人共有的特质，但要说每个人都绝对具备的，其实很少。YC 的一大教训就是：成功的路径有多少种，能成功的创始人就有多少种。

I think all of these things are traits that many founders share, but there's very few that I would say are absolutes that exist across everybody. One of the great lessons of YC is how many different ways and how many different kinds of founders can be very successful.

但你从他们身上看到了什么模式？因为这就……我的意思是，你当然可以说这些：你得有驱动力、聪明、善于沟通，还得有一个你真正愿意投入的想法。

But what pattern do you see in them? Because this is just well, I mean again, I think there are these things you can say, like you've got to be driven and smart and a good communicator, and you have to have an idea you're really willing to commit yourself to.

我们可以列出一长串创始人特质，也能列出一长串优秀企业特质。但一个很有意思的观察——我觉得它恰好证明了成功路径有多少种——就是：如果你把 YC 前 10 的公司拿出来，说这 10 个人显然都是伟大的创始人，这 10 家公司显然也都是伟大的公司，然后我把谁管哪家公司打乱重排，那会是一场灾难。从这个观察里能得出很多东西，其中之一就是：作为创始人，成功的方式有很多种，不存在一个放之四海而皆准的模式。

And I think we could make this long list of founder traits and a long list of good business traits. But one of the interesting observations, and I think why it's sort of an existence proof for how many different ways there are to succeed, is if you took the top 10 YC companies and said, okay, all 10 of these people are great founders, clearly all 10 of these are great companies, also clearly, and I'm going to scramble which founder runs which company, it would be a disaster. And I think there's many things one can take away from that observation, but one of them is that there's many different ways to be successful as a founder and there's not a single pattern that works in every case for every company.

那有没有哪种方式、或者某个常见的模式，是注定会灾难的？既然没有公式的话。

Is there a way, or a single pattern, that can be a disaster, which is common? Let's say if there's no formula.

会酿成灾难的事情很多：缺乏驱动力、缺乏专注、缺乏清晰度、缺乏愿景、缺乏反复解决难题还能笑着面对的能力。这些都是反模式。所以，几乎必然预示失败的事情有很多，但那部分反而更容易。

There's many things that are a disaster: lack of drive, lack of focus, lack of clarity, lack of vision, lack of ability to solve hard problems repeatedly with a smile on your face. All of these things are anti-patterns. So there are many things that are almost certain to predict failure, but that part is easier.

成功有很多种、不同的方式。你说第一点是缺乏驱动力。

A lot of ways, different ways to succeed. You said the first thing is lack of drive.

对。

Yeah.

那就是野心，很多人都在谈。你能训练一个人、或者教一个人变得更有野心吗？

And it's ambition, a lot of people talk about. Can you train somebody or can you teach somebody to be more ambitious?

能，我觉得可以。这是我在 YC 最惊喜的发现之一。我觉得 YC 对世界的价值比人们意识到的要大，部分原因就在于：有些东西也许没法训练，但你可以教人变得更有野心。不是所有人，很难预测你能教会谁，但这确实会发生。

Yes, I think you can. This was one of my most pleasant surprises of YC. And I think part of why YC adds much more value to the world than people realize is that there are some things that maybe you can't train, but you can teach people to become more ambitious. Not everybody. It's hard to predict who you'll be able to, but it can definitely happen.

你怎么教？

How do you teach it?

我发现最有效的做法是：第一，把一群经历相同的人组成同伴群体；第二，让人连续经历难度递增的挑战，让他们意识到自己能做得比自己以为的更多——做得更多、直觉更好，然后继续往前走。

I found that the most successful thing was one, a combination of a peer group going through the same thing, and two, getting people to go through successive challenges at increasing difficulty and realizing that they can do more than they think, do more than they think, better instincts, and keep going.

那你是进了这样的同伴群体之后才变得有野心的，还是之前就有野心？

And did you become ambitious like this when you were in the same peer group, or were you ambitious from before?

不，我觉得我变得有野心多了。

No, I think I got much more ambitious.

你觉得这种野心是来自“我周围所有人都很有野心”带来的信心，还是来自不安全感？

And do you think the ambition comes from confidence that everyone else around me is ambitious, or does it come from insecurity?

Paul Graham 以前说过，Demo Day 临近带来的压力、以及人们不想失败，这里面有点东西。我觉得那算是一种不安全感。但我认为更多是来自兴奋感，来自和这些人一起做这些了不起的事情所产生的正向力量，你会想：我们都是一起进来的，他们能做到，我也能。

Paul Graham used to say that there was something about the pressure of demo day coming up and people not wanting to fail. And I think that's kind of a version of insecurity. But I think much more it comes from there's excitement and there's a positive force of being around these people doing these amazing things, and you're like, well, you know, we all entered this together and if they can do it, so can I.

对你来说，更多是信心。

For you, it's more confidence.

我想是的。而且我真的认为，如果你不断接到稍微大一点、再大一点、再大一点的挑战，并且一直把它们做好，你确实会积累起大量层层递进的信心和认知。

I think so. And I really think that if you keep getting slightly bigger, slightly bigger, slightly bigger challenges and keep excelling at them, you really do build a lot of successive confidence and learning.

有意思。那是不是只有同伴圈子才能让你变成这样？

Interesting. And is it only the peer circle of the group that makes you like this?

你是什么意思？

What do you mean?

就是，是不是只有其他有野心的人才能给你这些东西？

Like, is it only that other ambitious people actually give you these things?

不是，我觉得获得它的方式有很多。但我认为人天生就会向身边的人学习。有句名言说，你会变成你最好的五个朋友的平均值，所以你最好把那五个人选好。

No, I think you can get it lots of ways. But I think we as people are hardwired to learn from the people around us. There's that famous quote, which is like, you're going to become the average of your five best friends, so you better pick those five people really well.

你信这句话吗？

You believe in it?

不完全信，但显然有一定道理。

Not quite, but there's some truth to it, obviously.

你作为创始人收到过的最糟糕的建议是什么？

What's the worst advice you've gotten as a founder?

我的意思是，几乎所有建议都很糟糕。我不知道怎么挑出最糟的，但我想说，我给创始人的元建议就是：少听建议。

I mean, almost all the advice is terrible. I don't know how to pick the worst thing, but I would say my meta advice to founders is listen to less advice.

少听建议。

Listen to less advice.

少听建议。

Listen to less advice.

你有时候回家会不会想：嘿，这些建议也许是对的，也许是我错了？

Do you sometimes go home at some point and be like, hey, all this advice is maybe right and maybe I'm wrong?

我觉得 YC 大概能从海量经验里提炼出 5 到 10 条非常重要、把握很大的通用建议。你应该听的就是那 5 到 10 条。比如 YC 的口号——或者座右铭，随便怎么叫——“做出人们想要的东西”，这几乎就是创业建议的唯一戒律，至少对早期创业公司来说，如果只能有一条的话。然后还有另一串几乎同样重要的东西。但你不听第 800 期关于如何创业的播客，也不会因此成为伟大的创始人。你得直接去做，自己去摸索。而且你需要的很多建议都太针对你的具体情况了，除了那些公理级的真理之外，再听一期播客也学不到多少东西。

I think YC could probably distill five to 10 very important, highly confident pieces of general advice from all of the incredible wealth of experience. And I think you should listen to those five or 10 things. Like I think the slogan of YC, or the motto, whatever it is, make something people want, that is like the single commandment of startup advice, to the degree there is one thing for early-stage startups. And then there's another list of things that are almost as important. But you're not going to become a great founder by listening to the 800th podcast of advice about how to start a startup. You've got to just do it and figure it out on your own. And a lot of the advice that you need is so specific to your case that beyond the axiomatic truths, there's not that much more to learn from one more podcast.

有意思。不过你写过一篇文章，《成功的 13 条法则》。

Interesting. And but you wrote an essay, 13 rules to become successful.

嗯，我记得我写过。但我不记得内容是什么了。我敢打赌现在我能写出更好的版本，也能写出更短的版本。

Well, I remember that I wrote that. I don't remember what they were. And I bet I could do a better version now. I bet I could do a shorter version now.

好。

Okay.

我认为关于复利这一点是我最先提到的。我觉得这很可能被低估了。很多人不会驱动自己持续向前进步。有个笑话是：当然，你有 20 年经验，但你是把同一年的经验重复了 20 次。我觉得职业生涯最酷的地方在于，你可以在每个 successive 阶段上构建，但你必须继续推动自己。你必须持续做不舒服、不显而易见的新事情。而很多人在职业生涯很早期就掉队了。所以，从经验上看，保持在复利指数曲线上并不是大多数人会做的事。我认为这是一条非常好、不显而易见的建议。

I think this point about compounding is the one I had first in there. I think this is probably underestimated. A lot of people don't drive themselves to continued forward progress. The joke is: sure, you have 20 years of experience, but you have 20 times the same one year of experience. The thing I think is so cool about a career is you can build on each successive phase, but you have to continue to push yourself. You have to keep doing uncomfortable, non-obvious new things. And a lot of people fall off that very early in their careers. So staying on the compounding exponential curve is empirically not what most people do. And I think that's a very good, non-obvious piece of advice.

你最近做的最不舒服的事情是什么？

What's the most uncomfortable thing that you do these days?

现在大多数事情感觉又都是新的了。弄清楚我们如何应对当前关于进展节奏的争论，感觉是一件非常难做对且相当重要的事情，而且是的，既困难又新鲜。

Most of the stuff now feels new again. Figuring out how we're going to navigate this current debate about pacing progress feels like a very difficult thing to get right and pretty important, and just yeah, hard and new.

那你怎么做来确保你做对呢？有没有什么

And what do you do to make sure that you get it right? Is there something that

花很多时间思考、与人交谈，并尝试把更多数据和更多新想法纳入其中。

A lot of time thinking and talking to people and trying to get more data and more new ideas into the mix.

你有时候回家会不会想：“也许我在这件事上错了。”

Do you ever go home sometimes and be like, "Maybe I'm wrong about this."

是的，当然。我觉得如果我不这样想，那才是灾难性的。我们谈论信念、自信等等。我认为有些人把这理解为不要内省。只要对你将要确信的事情保持确信，不要质疑它。我试图一直质疑一切。我仍然试图保持一致并带着信念行动，直到找到改变主意的理由。但我认为这真的很重要。

Yeah, of course. And I think it'd be disastrous if I didn't. We talk about conviction and self-belief and all of that. I think what some people take that to mean is don't introspect. Just be sure in what you're going to be sure and don't question it. I try to question everything all the time. I still try to act consistently and with conviction until I find a reason to change my mind. But I think this is really important.

给我举个例子。你是怎么做的？

Give me an example. How do you do it?

我的过程通常是不断从各个不同角度思考同一个问题，抛出一堆糟糕的想法，试图在我自己的头脑中拆解它们或找出问题，然后去找其他人。吸收更多输入，尝试不同的版本，再次调整。我认为这就是一个迭代的过程。

My process often is just to keep thinking about the same question from every different angle, throwing out a bunch of bad ideas, trying to break them apart or find problems with them in my own head, then going to other people. Taking more input, trying a different version of it out, adapting it again. I think it's an iterative process like that.

比如给我举个例子。比如你当前的大问题是什么，然后你只是从不同角度质疑，并且

Like give me an example of this. Like would you let's say what's your current big problem and then you're just questioning from different angles and

我想就是我刚才提到的那个问题：当我们进入 RSI 时代，我们如何看待进步的速度，以及我们如何避免两种可能出错的方式——要么是失去控制的事件，要么是权力集中事件，正确的治理机制是什么，我们如何看待一个 AI 系统相对于一个人应该被允许有多聪明。它能多快改进？我们如何看待安全、监控和 alignment 相关的问题，以及我们在哪里可以承担风险，哪里不能。

I think the one that I just gave, this question of how do we think about the pace of progress as we enter this RSI era and how do we avoid these two ways that things could go wrong, either from a loss of control incident or a concentration of power incident, and what is the right governance mechanism, how do we think about how smart an AI system should be allowed to be relative to a person. How quickly can that improve? How do we think about the questions around security and monitoring and alignment, and where can we afford to take risks and not.

那你在家的时候会改变吗？因为当你在家时

And does that change when you're at home? Because when you're at home

是的。

Yeah.

你看到你的孩子，看到你的家人，你可能会想，好吧，也许我从不同的视角思考。

and you see your kids and you see your family and you see like okay maybe I think from a different lens.

我非常——我的意思是，当我和孩子们在一起时，我尽量只是和他们待在一起，做最好的爸爸，尽量不让自己分心去想其他事情。但我注意到周末早上在家工作与在办公室工作有很大不同。我坚信，至少对我而言，找到某种节奏，让你可以高强度地与人相处、非常互动地工作，然后有真正的大块时间可以屏蔽世界，独自思考和工作。这种来回的节奏对我的特定风格非常重要。

I am a big—I mean when I'm with my kids I try to just hang out with my kids and be the best dad I can be and I try not to get myself distracted thinking about other stuff. But I have noticed a big difference on the weekend mornings when I'm working at home versus in the office. And I am a real believer, for me at least, that finding some sort of rhythm where you can intensely be with people and working very interactively and then have real chunks of time where you can shut out the world and just think and work on your own. That back and forth rhythm is super important to my particular style.

你能轻松做到这一点，还是必须通过艰难的方式学习？

You can do that easily or you have to learn hard way.

是的，这只是适合我的方式。它非常自然和容易。

Yeah, that's just what works for me. It's very natural and easy.

关闭并屏蔽，就像只是

Shutting down and shut like just being

关闭。这就像一种非常不同的工作方式。比如当我在家中的办公室工作时，那是一种非常独处的工作风格。如果我只这样做，那会是灾难。但如果我没有这种独处，只是不断在办公室开会，那对我也不可行。所以我需要那种来回。

Shutting down. It's just like a very different way of working. Like when I'm working at my office at home, it's like a very solo style of work. And if I only did that, it would be a disaster. But if I didn't have that and only was like constantly in meetings at the office, that also wouldn't work for me. So I need that back and forth.

有趣。当我问你关于家庭的问题时，我的意思是，因为你说这是你最大的恐惧，它可能朝任一方向发展。你是否觉得，当你不在那里指导和保护你的孩子或家人时，你会非常放心让你的孩子在 AI 驱动的世界中成长，而这个世界正是你今天在帮助创造的？

Interesting. And when I asked you about the family, what I meant to is because you said this is the biggest fear that you have that it could go either way. Do you feel that when you're gone and you're not there to guide or protect your kids or family, would you be very comfortable your kids growing up in the world AI powered world which you're helping create today?

是的，我认为——我的意思是，正如我之前所说，有所有这些可能出错的方式，所以我不知道未来会是什么样子，但我感到安心的是，我非常信任人们能够弄清楚如何适应和繁荣，并让社会对我们所有人更好，而且是的，我认为世界最有可能继续变得更好。

Yeah, I think it—I mean as I said earlier there's all these ways it could go wrong and so I don't know what the future's going to look like but I am comfortable that I have enormous trust in people to figure out how to adapt and thrive and make society better for all of us and yeah I think the world will most likely keep getting much better.

完美。那么，这是我问每个人的最后两个问题。你接下来最想建造的最非凡的东西是什么？

Perfect. Well, here's the last two questions that I ask everybody. What's the most extraordinary thing you want to build next?

哦，天哪。我立刻想到的是，我非常兴奋地看到我们能将 AI 推到多远来发现新科学。数学结果对我来说相当惊人，它真的让我觉得我们比预期更接近这个里程碑。但一台能帮助我们更好地理解世界、发现物理学中最深刻见解、找出新医疗方法、新能源的机器，我认为这些甚至是我们无法想象的，但更好的科学理解将使之成为可能。我非常兴奋我们能去建造那台机器。我一直被这样一个事实所震撼：世界变好的很大一部分是更好的科学理解，而我认为我们现在真的可以让 AI 加速这一点，这将对人类具有变革性。

Oh, man. The thing that immediately came to mind is I am extremely excited to see how far we can push AI to discover new science. The math results were quite amazing to me and it really made me think that we are closer to this milestone than I expected us to be. But a machine that can help us understand the world better, discover the deepest insights in physics, figure out new medical treatments, new sources of energy, things that I think we can't even imagine but that better scientific understanding will enable. I am extremely excited for us to go build that machine. I have always been struck by how much of the world getting better is better scientific understanding and the fact that I think we can now really have AI accelerate that is going to be transformative for humanity.

而那是你想建造的东西。

And that's something that you want to build.

是的。

Yeah.

那么成为 Sam Altman 的代价是什么？成为这个可能正在塑造人类最重要技术的人。

And what's the cost of becoming Sam Altman? Becoming this person who is probably shaping the most important technology of mankind.

很难回答，因为主观上这就是我现在的生活。我之前给你举了个小例子，我周末不能去咖啡店工作。但我感到无比幸运能做这一切，尽管它令人疲惫、压力大，很多人的焦虑投射到我身上，还有所有这些生活上的权衡，但这就是我现在所知道的一切。其他一切都是一段遥远过去的记忆。所以我没有那种真正的痛苦。哦，太可怕了。

It's hard to answer that cuz subjectively it's just like this is my life now. I gave you the trivia example earlier of I can't go work in a coffee shop on the weekends. But I feel like so incredibly lucky to get to do all this that although it's tiring and stressful and a lot of people's anxiety gets projected onto me and there's all of these life trade-offs, this is all I know now. Everything else is a distant memory of this past thing. So I don't have this real suffering. Oh, it's so horrible.

你对这件事的心态发生了什么变化？

What's happening to your mindset about it?

有道理。

Fair.

好的。非常感谢你。

Fair. Well, thank you so much.

非常感谢你邀请我来。

Thank you very much for having me on.

谢谢。这次真的很好。希望我们以后还能多做很多次。

Thank you. It was really good. I hope we get to do this many more times.

我也是。

Me too.

以后某个时候我们会深入聊，做一个长很多的版本。但非常感谢你来做这个。

At some point we'll just deep dive and do a much longer version of it. But thank you so much for doing this.

谢谢。

Thank you.

我很感激。

I appreciate it.

嗨。

Hi.

最近怎么样？

How's it going?

挺好的。嗨，我是 Raj。很高兴见到你。

Good. Hi, I'm Raj. Nice to meet you.

非常感谢你来做这个。我也很高兴见到你。

Thank you so much for doing this. Nice to meet you, too.

非常感谢你来做这个。

Thank you so much for doing this.

你好吗？

How are you?

这挺酷的。我很好。

This is cool. I'm good.

你喜欢这个布置吗？

You like the setup?

我以前从没见过这样的布置。我确实喜欢这个布置。不，我挺好的。就所有模型的进展而言，现在是一个非凡的时刻。

I've never seen a setup like this before. I do like the setup. No, I'm good. It's an extraordinary time in terms of just all of the model progress.

你感觉怎么样？

How are you doing?

挺好的。到这会儿我状态还不错。有点紧张，但我想我能撑过去。

Good. I'm pretty good at this point. Little nervous, but I think I'll get through.

我很希望你能尝尝这个。

I would love if you would try this.

当然可以。你说它很棒。

Yeah, of course. You tell it's great.

味道不错。

Tastes good.

哦，太好了。

Oh, perfect.

这些蘑菇里最重要的是哪一种？

What's the most important of the mushrooms?

是什么呢？猴头菇，还有……

What is it? Lion's mane and

对。

Yeah.

对。我感觉很好。

Yeah. I feel good.

你感觉很好？

You feel good?

对。

Yeah.

哦，太棒了。我们会给你寄很多选择。

Oh, amazing. We'll send you a lot of options.

非常感谢你把这期节目看到最后。现在我只想请你做三件事。第一，请订阅。你订阅得越多，我们就能为你请到更好的嘉宾，也能打造更有价值的对话。第二，请留言，告诉我们你喜欢这期节目的哪些地方、不喜欢哪些地方。还有你想看到什么样的嘉宾？请在评论里给我们这些建议。几乎每一条我们都会看。第三，请把这期节目分享给至少一个人，他的人生会因为听到节目里的某一课而改变。我们下次见。在那之前，继续探索。

Thank you so much for watching this episode till the end. All I want you to do is three things now. Number one, please subscribe. The more you subscribe, the better the guests we will be able to get for you and the more valuable conversation we'll be able to build. Number two, please comment and tell us what did you like about this episode and what you didn't like about this episode. And who are the kind of guests who you want to see? Please give us those suggestions in the comments. We read almost all of them. And number three, please share this episode with at least one person whose life will change after listening to one of the lessons from the episodes. I'll see you next time. Until then, keep figuring out.