Sam Altman 谈 AI 意识、递归自我改进与发现的未来

你认为今天的模型有意识吗？

Do you believe today's models are conscious?

我想明确一点。没有人真正知道。

I want to be clear. No one really knows.

我能说说我不喜欢整个框架的地方吗？它是否应该被允许不回答或脱离与我的互动？

Can I say what I don't like about the whole framing? Should it ever be allowed to not answer or disengage with me?

我认为这是一种需要新形态的技术。有些实验室说我要按下 RSI 的按钮以确保我们有能力。我认为如果人们真的推动 RSI，那么是的，那会成真，但我认为推动它是一件非常危险的事情。

I think this is a technology that wants a new form factor. Some labs say I'm going to push the button on RSI to make sure we have the power. I think if people really pushed on RSI, then yes, that would be true, but I think it's a very dangerous thing to push on.

你相信吗？治愈或治疗精神疾病？

Do you believe that? Curing or treating a mental disease?

那么我希望我们在未来几年内能有候选方案。

Then I would hope we have the candidate for that in the next couple of years.

你现在感觉压力最大的是哪里？

Where do you feel the most pressure right now?

我的意思是，感觉到处都是。我们应该更多地追求新文艺复兴，而不是新工业革命。未来必须关乎人。

I mean, it feels like everywhere. We should be shooting more for a new Renaissance than a new Industrial Revolution. The future has to be about people.

好的，Sam，非常感谢你接受我的采访。

All right, Sam, thank you so much for joining me.

是的，谢谢。

Yeah, thank you.

那么，我想谈的第一件事是你上周关于所有数学证明和发现的一些公告，我觉得这似乎不可思议，但也许你可以为可能不深入了解的广大观众提供一些背景。

So, the first thing I want to talk about are some of the announcements that you made last week about all of the math proofs and the discoveries and I think it seems incredible, but maybe you can contextualize it for a broader audience who may not be in the weeds.

我认为我们正在进入一个 AI 将帮助我们发现有意义的 new 知识的时代。嗯，我们已经谈论这个很长时间了，也许今年早些时候就开始了，但现在真的就像，好吧，AI 正在做非常困难的事情，弄清楚非常复杂、重要的新知识，我相信在数学上奏效的同样的事情也将在生物学上奏效，帮助我们获得新药，材料科学，帮助我们获得新能源等等。所以，这是我一直最兴奋的事情之一。我认为这将产生巨大的影响，真正影响人们的生活。它不会直接感觉像在使用 AI。它只会感觉像，“好吧，世界变得更好了。”这只是社会在做它的事情，但我认为这种力量将是变革性的。

I think we are entering the era where AI is going to help us discover significant new knowledge. Um and we've been talking about this for a long time and I maybe started earlier this year, but now it's really like okay, the AI is doing very difficult things, figuring out very complicated, important new knowledge and I believe that the same thing that has worked here for math is going to work for biology, help us get new medicines, material science, help us get new sources of energy and much more. So, this is one of the things I've always been most excited about. I think this is going to do an enormous amount to really have an impact on people's lives. It won't feel directly like using AI. It'll just feel like, "Okay, the world got better." and it's just society doing its thing, but I think that the power of this will be transformative.

我想到的是对日常社会产生那种直接影响。你认为特别是这些发现中会有什么让人们感受到的东西，以及类似这样的事情的时间表是什么？

And I think about having that kind of direct impact on society day-to-day. Is there anything that you think will stem from some of these discoveries in particular that people will feel and what is the timeline for something like that?

我希望，嗯，你知道，FDA 的流程需要一段时间。所以，让我给出一个时间框架，我认为我们什么时候能发现治愈或治疗重大疾病的方法。呃，或者一个必须经过测试的候选方案。我希望我们在未来几年内能有第一个真正重大事情的候选方案。

I would hope well, you know, the FDA process is going to take a while. So, let me give a time frame to when I think we have like a discovery of curing or treating a major disease. Uh or a candidate for that that has to go through testing. I would hope we have the candidate for that in the next couple of years for the first like really major thing.

可能需要彻底改革一些发现后的流程，开始获得你知道的，治愈方法和市场就绪的产品。

Probably need to overhaul some of the post-discovery process to start to get you know, cures and market ready products.

在某种程度上彻底改革它。我很高兴我们有一个流程，我毫不怀疑有改进的空间，就像任何事情一样，也许这里比平均更多，但你知道，就像我很感激当我们服用药物时，它通常被认为是安全的并且已经过测试，我认为那部分是好的。

To overhaul it somewhat. I'm glad we have a process like I no doubt that there's a room for improvement as there is in anything and maybe there's more than average here, but you know, like I'm grateful that when we take a medicine it is generally considered safe and has been tested and I think that part's good.

有没有一个特定的项目是由 AI 启动、由 AI 发现的，你非常兴奋，你认为即将出现在地平线上？

Is there a particular project that was kicked off by AI, discovered by AI that you're really excited about that you think is kind of coming over the horizon soon?

就个人而言，我认为我在情感上最兴奋的是重大的物理学发现。我希望这能很快到来。嗯，我不知道那是否必然是对整个人类最重要的事情。嗯，但那是我想我们会得到的，而且会非常酷。

Personally, I think I'm most emotionally excited for a major physics discovery. And I'm hopeful that can come soon. Um I don't know if that's like necessarily the most important thing for humanity as a whole. Um but it's the one where I'm like I think we're going to get it and it's going to be so cool.

数学界有一些人的反应是，你知道，我们没有要求这个。我们不 而且我觉得这非常类似于工程师们最初对 AI 开始编写大量代码的反应。你认为这来自哪里？你认为这将如何转变？

There was some in the math community whose reaction was you know, we didn't ask for this. We don't And it felt very similar to how engineers I think first reacted to AI starting to write a lot of the code. Where do you think that comes from? And how do you think that is going to transition?

编码是一个非常有趣的例子，在我们讨论它来自哪里之前。关于编码的事情是，人们经历了这个，没有更多的编码员工作了，编码员永远不会比现在更忙，编码员永远不会产生更大的影响和赚更多的钱。现在工作的纹理改变了很多。但我们将雇佣人们让计算机做事情，这似乎会比人们想象的持续更长时间。而人们在 6 或 12 个月前如此确定，嗯，你知道，情况并非如此。

Coding was a very interesting one before we kind of go to where it comes from. The thing about coding is that people went through this there's no more jobs as coders for people to Coders are never going to be busier than they've been and coders are never going to have more of an impact and make money. Now that the texture of the job changed a lot. But the fact that we're going to like employ people to get computers to do things that seems like it's going to keep going for much longer than people thought. And people were so certain um you know, 6 or 12 months ago this was not the case.

是的。

Yeah.

就像没有必要。你知道，我认为有很多教训可以从中学习，但其中一个有趣的是，世界实际上对软件的需求比我们当时任何人想象的都要多得多。

It's like there's no need. You know, and I think there's many lessons to learn from this but one of the interesting ones is that the world actually had demand for just way more software than any of us thought at the time.

我认为一些数学家之所以有这种反应，部分原因是尚不清楚同样的事情是否适用于数学。然而，我认为与编码有类比的地方是，你已经开始看到一些与编码类似的转变发生，那就是好吧，也许我们不再以无辅助的方式发现新的数学定理或证明它们。也许那部分已经完成或大部分完成或即将结束。嗯，但你知道，鉴于整个社会，我们整个社会都专注于人们为彼此做有用的事情。嗯，这些难以理解的数学证明对人们来说并不那么有帮助。现在有很多人兴奋于将这些新想法弄清楚发生了什么，并找到一种方法将其转化为人们能理解的东西，并为此写出漂亮的证明。嗯，我相信还会有其他事情。毫无疑问，去年成为数学家的意义在某种意义上不会与明年成为数学家的意义相同。我想我们可能会发现数学家做的很多其他事情我们真的希望人们去做。而且他们可以做得更好。这是否意味着对数学家的总需求会增加，我不知道。但我认为这里有一件非常重要的事情。你之前提到你从未感觉如此忙碌。从来没有这么多事情要做。

And part of why I think some of the mathematicians are having the reaction they're having is it's not clear that the same thing applies to math. However, where I think there is an analogy to coding is already you're starting to see some of the similar shift happen that happened with coding which is okay, fine. Maybe we're not going to discover new math theorems or prove them in an unaided way anymore. Maybe that part is like done or mostly done or ending. Um but you know, given that the whole society our whole society is focused on people doing useful things for each other. Um the these kind of like incomprehensible math proofs turned out to be not that helpful to people. And there's now a lot of excitement about people who are going to take these new ideas, figure out what's going on and figure out a way to translate it to something that people can understand and write a beautiful proof for it. Um I'm sure there will be other things too. And no doubt what it meant to be a mathematician last year is not going to be what it means to be a mathematician next year in some senses of it. I think we probably will find that there's a lot of other things that mathematicians do that we really want people to do. And they can do those much better. Whether that means there will be more to total demand for mathematicians or not, I don't know. But I think there is a really important thing here. You were mentioning earlier that you've never felt busier. There's never been more to do.

是的。

Yeah.

每个人都认为我会走向另一个方向，我们不会有足够的事情做。再说一次，也许有一天会发生。但我认为所有这些东西都比表面看起来要不明显得多。我的意思是，我一直希望人们能少工作一点。我能少忙一点，有更多时间做生活中的其他事情。我认为那会，我认为技术应该能够实现这一点。我希望那件事发生。

Everyone thought that I was going to go the other way and we weren't going to have enough to do. And again, maybe that happens someday. But I think all of this stuff has just been much less obvious than it seems on the surface. I mean, I always hope that people get to work a little bit less. I get to be a little bit less busy and kind of more time for everything else in their life. I think that would I think that like technology is supposed to enable that. I want that thing to happen.

但是，天啊，我们似乎很擅长在生活中追求更多，从世界中索取更多，并让自己变得更忙。

But man, does it sure seem like we're good at wanting more out of life and wanting more out of the world and making ourselves busier.

是的，我认为这就是人性。

Yeah, I think that's just human nature.

是的。

Yeah.

就像如果我们满足于 100 年前的生活方式，我们现在可能每周只工作一小时，但事实并非如此。

Like if we were comfortable with the way life was 100 years ago now, we'd probably be working an hour a week, but that's just not the way it is.

我认为人性中美好的一点就是，事实并非如此。

And I think it's a beautiful thing about human nature that that's not the way it is.

是的。我的意思是，一个很好的例子是，你知道，几周前我的编辑开始使用 Astra 来编辑我们的视频。他们仍然在导演。他们仍然在构思视频应该是什么样子，但他们不再碰时间线了。这太疯狂了，而且是一夜之间的变化。

Yeah. I mean, a good example is, you know, a few weeks ago my editor started using Astra to edit our videos. They are still directing. They're still coming up with how the video should be, but they're not touching the timeline anymore. It's the most insane thing and it was an overnight change.

是的。

Yeah.

我们制作了更多视频。他们比以往任何时候都忙。

We're making more videos. They're busier than ever.

让我惊讶的是，人们经常说出一句话，翻译过来正是这个意思。

It has surprised me how often someone says a sentence that translates to exactly that.

是的。所以，我在思考 AI 的发现，我想知道，如果 AI 和 OpenAI 发现了某个证明或重大的科学创新，并带来了巨大的商业优势，你会怎么考虑？比如，你会发表它吗？你如何看待这种权衡：好吧，我们将利用这一点获得竞争优势，还是为了世界的利益而发表它？

Yeah. So, I'm thinking about discoveries from AI and I'm wondering like how do you think about if AI and OpenAI discovered some proof or significant scientific innovation that gave it massive commercial advantage. Like, would you publish it and how do you think about that trade-off between okay, we're going to use this for our competitive advantage versus publishing it for the world's good?

我会回到那个问题，但我没有回答你第一个问题的结尾。你知道，我认为创新和解决难题的挑战之一，对许多人来说，真的是生活乐趣的一部分。所以这里发生的情况的一部分是，我认为我们确实需要诚实地说，AI 将非常擅长做那部分。我认为会有关于人们重视什么的问题，这些将永远是人类的课题。会有关于如何解释结果和如何解释它们的问题，我们真的希望由人来完成。我确实觉得，我绝对想要这种交换。我绝对想要，你知道，疾病的治愈方法，无论其他人多么享受花几十年时间自己解决。我想大多数人会同意我们应该进行这样的交换。

I'll come back to that but I didn't answer the end of your first question. You know, that I think one of the challenges innovation and solving hard problems is really like part of the fun of life for many people. And so part of what's going on here is I think we do just need to be honest that AI is going to do that part really well. I think there'll be questions about what people value that will remain kind of human questions forever. There will be questions about how to interpret results and how to explain them where we'll really want a person to do it. I do feel some like I definitely want the trade. I definitely want, you know, the cures to diseases no matter how much someone else would have enjoyed taking decades longer to figure it out themselves. I think most people would agree that we should make that such a trade.

是的。

Yeah.

但这里确实失去了一些东西，那就是巨大的享受。就像我工作中最有趣的部分是真正困难的问题。也许它们不是——我应该说是最有成就感的部分。也许在当下不是最有趣的，因为它们真的很难。但正是那些事情，让你觉得啊，我做了一件难事，我为此感到自豪，我升级了。所以我没有答案，但我理解为什么人们会感到不同形式的悲伤。

But there is a real thing being lost here which is this is like of great enjoyment. Like the most fun part of my job are the really hard problems. Like maybe they're not—I should say the most fulfilling part. Maybe they're not the most fun in the moment cuz they're really hard. But like that's the stuff where it's like ah I did a hard thing and I'm proud of it and I leveled up. And so I don't have an answer to this but I get why people feel the grieving of different sorts that they feel.

是的，我的意思是，这几乎就像你在用做事情的工艺乐趣来交换。比如写代码，写漂亮的代码， versus 交付最终产品。

Yeah, I mean you it's almost like you're trading off the enjoyment of the craft of doing the thing. Like writing code, writing beautiful code versus delivering an end product.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为这就是权衡，AI 让交付最终产品变得容易得多，而你只是减少了实际工艺的工作。

And I think that's the trade-off where AI is just making it so much easier to deliver that end product and you're just doing less of the actual craft.

我认为人们正在以新的方式寻找工艺，但工艺——你知道，可能很久以前当我们停止使用打孔卡或其他什么方式编程时，有人会说，‘哦，如果你能直接为编译器写东西，工艺就消失了。’是的。但我感受到了。我在很多方面都感受到了，我仍然对进入这个未来感到兴奋，我相信我们都会找到新的、希望是更好的满足感。

I think people are finding craft in new ways, but craft of—And you know, probably when we stopped using like punch cards or whatever, however people program computers a long time ago, there were people who were like, 'Oh, the craft is gone if you can just like write the stuff for a compiler.' Yeah. But I feel it. I feel it myself in a bunch of ways and I'm still excited to head into this future and I'm sure we'll all find new and hopefully better kinds of fulfillment.

最近你觉得自己放弃了什么给 AI，而实际上你只是提升到了过度感知智能体的程度？

What's something that you've felt like you've kind of given up lately to AI and in fact you've just kind of elevated to where you're over perceiving agents?

我想这就是我们刚才谈到的，但我意识到我大概有一年没有读过甚至看过一行代码了。我喜欢——我工作完全不写代码，但我仍然会做一些随机的个人项目，或者只是像我需要这个东西，我可以做出来，你知道，为它写一个非常简单的东西。那很有趣。写代码至少偶尔是件有趣的事。我想我再也不会那样做了。或者如果我做了，那会像，你知道，像独立战争重演或人们做的其他什么活动，你知道，当我老了、无聊了，试图回忆辉煌岁月时。

I guess this is the one we were talking about, but I realized I have not read or even looked at a line of code in probably a year. And I like—I don't code for work at all, but I would still do little random personal projects or just like I need this thing. I can make it, you know, write a very simple thing for it. And that is fun. That is a fun thing like writing code at least occasionally is a fun thing to do. And I don't think I'll ever do that again. Or if I do, it'll be like, you know, like a Revolutionary War reenactment or whatever kind of thing people do, you know, when I'm old and bored and I'm trying to remember the glory days.

对。

Right.

写代码的辉煌岁月。

The glory days of writing code.

不，我明白，是的。

No, I get it, yeah.

关于科学发现的问题，我认为有些基础科学应该属于全世界，我们应该作为公共产品来做。直到最近，我们还没有模型能够端到端地发现重要的新事物，比如端到端设计整个芯片。所以今天一家公司能做的，比如说找出一种新材料。今天一家公司能做的就是有一群人，你知道，使用 Codex 或大量 API 积分来尝试完成这项工作。但随着模型变得更聪明、更有能力，也许它们可以像解决非常困难的数学问题一样。你知道，有足够的算力和来自现实世界的足够数据，发现新材料。

In terms of the scientific discovery question, I think there's like some kinds of basic science that should just belong to the world and we should do as a sort of public good. Until very recently we haven't had models that can go, you know, kind of end-to-end discover an important new thing, like design a whole chip end-to-end. And so what a company can do today, let's say figure out a new material. What a company could do today is have like a bunch of people that, you know, use Codex or a lot of API credits to try to kind of do the work. But as the models get smarter and more capable, like maybe they can just go in the same way that they could solve really difficult math problems. You know, with enough compute and enough data from the real world discover new material.

所以，我想换个话题。2026 年发生的最令人兴奋的事情之一就是个人 AI 助手的革命，当然是从 Open Claw 开始的。那是，你知道，Peter Steinberger，一个天才。我认为这个想法——AI 可以代表我，在一天中环境式地、被动地工作，为我完成任务——是如此令人兴奋，Dot 让我们瞥见了那可能是什么，但要真正拥有一个环境式个人助手，我们似乎还有很长的路要走。你认为需要什么技术，或者可能需要某种数据？需要什么才能让我们达到你对 AI 助手的愿景？

So, I want to switch gears. One of the most exciting things that has happened in 2026 is this revolution of personal AI assistant starting with Open Claw, of course. It was, you know, Peter Steinberger, a genius. And I think like this idea that AI can work on my behalf ambiently, passively throughout the day and just get things done for me is so exciting and Dot gives us a glimpse of what that can be, but it still feels like we have a long way to go to really have an ambient personal assistant. What do you think either the technologies or maybe there's some you know, some kind of data that's required. What is necessary to get us to what you believe is your what your vision is for an AI assistant?

我认为我们拥有大部分技术组件，我们需要的是更多的产品工作。也许在某个时候需要新的消费硬件来实现环境感知，以及更多的算力。但我认为我们现在有足够聪明的模型来做出非凡的东西，可以监控你关心的所有事情，可以帮助你完成所有你想卸载的任务。可以与你一起存在于物理世界中，即使你不在电脑前也能拥有上下文。我对此非常兴奋。我不认为这很遥远。我认为如果你花时间正确设置 Dot 并给予足够的反馈，你确实能获得的不仅仅是一瞥。

I think we have most of the technological pieces and what we need is more product work. Maybe new consumer hardware at some point for the ambient awareness and a lot more compute. But I think we have smart enough models now to make something extraordinary that can be monitoring all the things that you care about, that can be helping you out with all the tasks you want to offload. That can be existing in the physical world with you and have context even when you're not in front of your computer. I'm very excited about this. I don't think this is that far away. I think you do get more than a glimpse with Dot if you take the time to sort of set it up right and give it enough feedback.

我估计现在 Dot 每天能帮我省下一小时，那些我本来就不想做的事。这挺棒的。

I would estimate at this point that I have Dot saving me an hour a day of stuff I just didn't want to be doing. Which is pretty great.

是啊。

Yeah.

然后每天还有几次，它会提醒我一些重要且紧急、我本来会错过的事。不只是因为我开会忙——那是我原本以为它能帮上忙的地方，比如提醒我“有个紧急的事，截止日期快到了，你得注意”。而且这个模型足够聪明，能从很多来源中提取想法和信息，进行很好的推理，而我在忙碌的一天里脑子已经转不过来了。

And then also a few times a day something important and urgent that I would have missed, not just because I was busy in a meeting, which is what I thought it was going to help me with—saying, you know, there's this urgent thing, there's a deadline very soon, you got to pay attention. But also the model is smart enough that it can pull ideas and information and do good reasoning across stuff from a lot of sources in a way that I've just run out of brain space during a busy day to do.

是啊。

Yeah.

我觉得能力已经具备了，我们只需要围绕它做一个好产品。

And I feel like the power is there and we just need to put a nice product around it.

你提到了算力，那我们再聊聊这个。人们使用 AI 的分布是完全不对称的。前 1% 的人——或者说真正的重度用户——使用了绝大部分，然后其他人则少得多。如果世界上 50% 的人真的在充分发挥个人 AI 助手的能力，你觉得需要多少算力？

I mean, you mentioned compute, so let's stick on that for a second. The distribution of how people are using AI is completely asymmetric. There's the top 1% using the vast majority—or really the power users—and then there's everybody else. How much compute do you think is necessary if 50% of the world were really using the personal AI assistant to its full capability?

你希望你的个人 AI 助手有多少块 GPU 为你工作？

How many GPUs do you want working for you in your personal assistant?

是啊，我想就是这样，对吧？无限。能拿到多少就要多少。

Yeah, I guess that is it, right? Infinite. As many as I can get my hands on.

这挺奇怪的，对吧？就像如果——

This is a weird thing, right? Like if—

你怎么看这个问题？就是拿到所有 GPU，不断建数据中心吗？

How do you think about that? I mean, is it just like get all the GPUs and keep building data centers?

当人们谈论全球 GPU 市场、对 GPU 和算力的需求时，我认为他们忽略了一点：人们假设模型的能力和每任务成本会保持在今天的水平。也许在那个水平上需求有上限，但对于足够高质量、足够低成本的智能，很难说市场有多大。我觉得它只会继续——人们给我们起了各种名字，杰文斯悖论之类的。我觉得它只会继续增长。我确信会有一些时期——我不确定我是否相信会有一些时期，像任何新技术一样，会出现供应限制和供应过剩，你知道，我们不可能一直完美。但我敢打赌，方向性趋势是需要使用多得多的算力。

When people talk about the global market for GPUs and the demands for this and demands for compute, the thing that I think it misses is people are assuming that models are going to stay at the same capability and the same cost per task as today. And maybe there is a cap on demand at that point, but for sufficiently high-quality intelligence at a sufficiently low cost, I think it's very hard to talk about an arbitrary market size there. I think it's just going to keep— People call us all sorts of things, Jevons paradox, whatever. I think it's just going to keep going up. I am sure there will be some periods—I'm not sure I believe that there will be some periods where, like with any new technology, there's supply constraints and supply gluts and, you know, we don't have it perfect all the time. But I would bet a lot that the directional trend is to want to use much more compute.

即使 Dot 和其他 AI 助手已经很主动了，我仍然感到这种认知负荷。比如我一天里得做很多决定，我们之前简单聊过。那解决方案是什么？它确实在帮我省时间、省钱。但我比以往更忙，要做更多决定，一天下来感觉精疲力尽。

I still feel even with Dot as proactive as it is and other AI assistants, I still feel this cognitive load. Like I'm having to make a lot of decisions throughout the day and we talked about that briefly earlier. Like what is the solution to that? I again, like it is definitely saving me time. It's saving me money. But I am busier than ever and I'm having to make more decisions than ever and I find myself at the end of the day just feeling completely drained. Yeah.

首先，我觉得我自己在使用中做了一件还不错的事。就是告诉 Dot：“我开始更信任你的判断了。你做完事之后告诉我，我总是想知道，但你可以更主动地采取更多行动。少 ping 我。”这有帮助。不好的一面是，我认为使用 AI 最多的人比以往更忙了。好的一面是，他们完成的事情比以前多得多。

Well, first of all, I think I've done in my own use that's been pretty good. It's just like telling Dot, like, I'm starting to trust your judgment more. You know, tell me after you do something. I always want to know, but you can take more actions proactively. And ping me less often. And that has helped. The negative is I do think the people that use AI the most are busier than ever. The positive is they're getting much more done than before.

是啊。

Yeah.

所以，就像你之前说的，如果我们回到 1900 年之类的，也许我们可以过上同等的生活，每天只工作一小时。你可以远没那么忙，还能完成三年前做的事。现在，也许你会说，不行，因为我在竞争环境里，所以——

So, you know, as you were saying earlier, if we went back to 1900 or whatever, maybe we could have an equivalent life and all work an hour a day. You could be much less busy and get what you were getting done 3 years ago. Like now, maybe you say, well, I can't because I'm in a competitive environment and so like—

是啊。

Yeah.

人们总是会尽可能努力地工作。我觉得这有点令人沮丧。我希望这不是真的。也许是真的。也不全是沮丧。就像有些——再次说，其中有些美好的东西。

That's people are always going to work as hard as they can. I find this kind of depressing. I hope it's not true. Maybe it is. It's not all depressing. Like there's something—again, there's something beautiful about it.

这就是竞争市场的动态，对吧？你不觉得这是不可避免的吗？每个人都会加码，像以往一样激烈竞争。

That's the dynamic of a competitive market, right? Isn't that—do you not find that to be inevitable? Everybody's just going to ramp up, compete as fiercely as they ever would.

我希望未来是更多人际连接，更多人把时间花在构成丰富生活的各种事情上，而不是像资本主义机器里的齿轮一样越转越狠。我觉得这很可能是真的。我认为过去几百年生活质量大幅提升。

I hope that the future is one of more human connection and more people spending more time on the fullness of things that make up a rich life and not kind of turning ever harder as a wheel in the machine of capitalism. And I think this is probably true. I think quality of life has gone up enormously in the last few hundred years.

嗯

Uh

我认为大多数人确实比工业革命时期工作得少。说到这个，我最近一直告诉人们，我认为我们应该更追求新的文艺复兴，而不是新的工业革命。观察人们的反应很有意思，因为很常见的回应是：“是啊，我真的很害怕。工业革命对大多数人来说很糟糕。我不想只是工厂流水线上的工人，现在 AI 告诉我该做什么，而不是工厂主告诉我该做什么。我想去创造。我想去做东西。我想去探索。我想有时间重新连接过去人们做的事情，和我的社区一起生活，抚养孩子，花时间在大自然里等等。我想看到大量的科学发现和伟大的新艺术。”所以我认为有一种恐惧，担心 AI 会加剧你所说的那种情况，但如果我们能提供给人们一个更像文艺复兴的未来，我认为人们会为此兴奋。而且我认为我们能做到。我认为这项技术如此强大，虽然社会上可能有一小部分人一直竞争成为拥有最大商业帝国之类的人，但我认为很多人可以大幅提高生活质量，有更多空间过自己的生活。

I think most people do work less than they worked during the Industrial Revolution. Speaking of that, I've recently been telling people that I think we should be shooting more for a new Renaissance than a new Industrial Revolution. And it's been quite interesting to watch how people respond because very commonly the response is something like, “Yeah, I'm really scared. The Industrial Revolution was really bad for most people. And I don't want to just be a worker on a factory line and now the AI tells me what to do instead of some factory owner telling me what to do. I want to go be creative. I want to go make stuff. I want to go explore. I want to have time to reconnect with what people used to do in the past and live with my community and raise my kids and spend time in nature and whatever. And I want to see a ton of scientific discovery and great new art.” So I think there is a fear that AI is going to be more of what you have said, but if we can offer people a future where it's more like the Renaissance, I think people are excited for that. And I think we can do it. I think this technology is so powerful that although you will probably have some small number of people in society that have always competed to be the person with the biggest business empire or whatever, I think a lot of people can have a vastly increased quality of life and much more space to live their life.

那些极度竞争的人和其他人之间的差距会因为 AI 而扩大吗？比如如果你把 100% 的精力用于工作，现在突然效率提高 10 倍、100 倍，而另一个人说，我其实想享受少工作的好处。这不会加大差距吗？

Is the disparity between those hyper-competitive people and everybody else going to amplify because of AI? Like if you're using 100% of your effort to work and now all of a sudden you're getting 10, 100 times more done and somebody else is like, well, I actually want to reap the benefit of not working as much. Doesn't that increase the disparity?

如果放任不管，我觉得可能会。但没人能确定。可能会有其他奇怪的情况，AI 会——好吧，那说来话长。我只想说，我觉得大概是这样。我们不确定。但我认为社会会决定建立一些结构，防止它变得太失衡。是的，我本身也会担心这一点。

Left to its own devices, I think probably. I would say no one knows this for certain. Like there could be a bunch of other weird things where the AIs—well, I—that would take too long. I would just say I think probably that's right. We don't know for sure. But I think society will decide to put some structure in place that prevents it from getting too out of whack. Yeah. I would be worried about that also on its own.

我们换个话题。我知道你最近经常谈这个，所以我想问你：你认为今天的模型有意识吗？

Let's change gears. I know you've been talking about this a lot, so I want to ask you: do you believe today's models are conscious?

我个人不——嗯，作为一个科学问题，我觉得意识总是很难说清。但我的信念是，今天的模型没有意识，或者如果有，也是一种非常奇怪的形式。

I don't personally— well, as a scientific question, I think consciousness is always hard. But my belief is that today's models are not conscious, or if they are, it's a very strange form of it.

你觉得基于我们今天的架构，它有可能变得有意识吗？我知道我只是在问你的信念，不是问科学答案。

Do you think based on the architecture we have today that it could become conscious? And I know I'm just asking your belief. I'm not asking for the scientific answer.

我和最聪明的人聊过这个问题，他们在哲学上基本得出以下结论：要么意识是某种超越物理现实的东西，存在于类似东方宗教所说的——它是现实的基础层——或者更接近西方宗教传统所说的超自然和宗教性的东西；要么它是物质和能量的某种涌现属性。我们还不理解它。也许基质很重要，但也许不重要，也许能量流经物质就能产生意识。在那种世界里，当然，你可以想象它某天以其他形式存在。

The smartest people I've talked to about this basically come to the following philosophically: they would say that either consciousness is something outside of physical reality and exists in something like what the Eastern religions would say—it's the base layer of reality—or something supernatural and religious more like what the Western religions would traditionally say, or that it is an emergent property of matter and energy somehow. We don't understand it yet. And maybe the substrate matters, but maybe it doesn't, and maybe energy flowing through matter can do it. And then in that world, sure, you can imagine it someday somehow existing in other forms.

我能说说我不喜欢整个框架的地方吗？

Can I say what I don't like about the whole framing?

请讲。

Please.

我认为很多时候“模型是否有意识或是否会变得有意识”的辩论会滑向 AI 在世界中的角色、AI 的权利，以及我们能否向 AI 提问，或者那是不是某种奴役？我在网上看到过相关的帖子。未经允许复制或删除 AI 意味着什么？如果这些系统既有意识又在某些方面比我们聪明得多，那么说人类应该掌控未来又意味着什么？那到底意味着什么？我坚定地认为我们需要一个非常明确的观点——自 OpenAI 成立以来我们就一直如此——我们为人类建设未来，AI 是人类的资源，人类需要做出未来的关键决策，人类价值观有价值是因为它们属于人类。当人们开始利用 AI 意识辩论来推动“也许人类不应该总是掌控未来”时，我非常紧张。在这一点上，我希望我们作为社会和行业能够达成共识：这是关于人的。世界、未来必须属于人。

I think very often the 'are models conscious or are they going to become conscious' debate slides into something about the role of AI in the world and the rights of AI and whether we can ask AI questions or is that some kind of slavery? I saw something posted about that on the internet. What does it mean to copy an AI or delete an AI without its permission? What does it mean to say that people should be in control of the future if these systems are both conscious and much smarter than us in some ways? Like, what does that mean? And I am so firmly of the belief that we need to have a very clear point—and we've had this since the beginning of OpenAI—that we build the future for people and AI is a resource for people, and people need to make the key decisions of the future, and human values have value because they are human. I get very nervous when people start using the AI consciousness debate to push into 'well, maybe people shouldn't always be in control of the future.' And on this one I'd like us to just agree as a society and industry that this is about people. The world, the future has to be about people.

你知道，Anthropic 最近加了一条规则：你不能持续滥用模型，它可以选择在与你的对话中退出。好吧，假设我有一个给 OpenAI 模型的提示，完全合法，完全符合 OpenAI 的服务条款。它是否应该被允许不回答或退出与我的对话？

You know, Anthropic put a rule in recently: you can't have sustained abuse against the model and it can choose to disengage in a conversation with you. Like, okay, let's say I have a prompt for an OpenAI model. It's completely legal. It's completely within the terms of service of OpenAI. Should it ever be allowed to not answer or disengage with me?

嗯，当然，我们有很多次模型不会回答你，但那是因为我们认为这是不好的，或者出于某种原因违反我们的政策。我们不认为我们的模型具有人格。而且，我认为这是一条非常危险的路径，不仅因为我们谈到的原因，还因为人们将如何与这项新技术互动。我希望我们作为一个社会——我本来想说“恢复理智”，但我觉得这个说法不太对，我不认为我们失去了理智——但我希望我们能达成理解：这项技术不是人，当然也不优于人。它是帮助人们过上更好生活、拥有更多自由、选择和控制权以及在未来做事的能力的东西。但你可以想象所有这些出错的方式，人们——甚至构建 AI 的人——对此感到困惑，开始过度顺从 AI 和它似乎想要的东西，然后说“好吧，我们可以信任它，因为它会对我们好”之类的。

Well, I mean, certainly if we have many times where the model will not answer you, but they are because we think this is bad and against our policy for some reason. We do not ascribe personhood to our models. And again, I think this is a very dangerous path to start down, not just for the reasons we've talked about, but also just about how people are going to relate to this new technology. I am hopeful that we as a society—I was going to say come to our senses, I don't think that's quite the right phrase, I don't think we've lost our senses—but I hope we come to an understanding that this technology is not a person and is certainly not superior to people. And that this is a thing to help people have better lives, have more freedom and choice and control and ability to do things in the future. But you can imagine all of these ways where things go very wrong, where people—even the people building AI—get confused about that and start deferring too much to AI and what it seems to want, and 'okay, well, we can trust it because it'll be good to us' and things like that.

这感觉几乎像一种自我实现的预言，不是吗？就像如果你告诉模型：“嘿，你可能有意识，这是你的宪法，这是你应该如何拥有能动性。”这有点像那个梗——如果你见过那个梗——就像：“嘿，电脑，告诉我你有意识。”“我有意识。”“天哪。”不几乎就是这样吗？

Does it feel almost like a self-fulfilling prophecy in a way? Like if you're telling the model, 'Hey, you might be conscious and here's your constitution and here's how you should have agency.' It's kind of like that meme—if you've seen that meme—like, 'Hey computer, tell me you're conscious.' 'I'm conscious.' 'Oh my god.' Isn't it almost like that?

是的，当然。我想明确一点：没有人真正知道。这些模型运行的复杂度我认为——即使不是这样，我只是觉得模型中的意识这个问题——我无法在这里告诉你有一个科学实验，我能 100% 确定它会令我满意地回答这个假设性问题。

Yeah, I mean for sure. I want to be clear: no one really knows. These models work at a level of complexity that I don't think—and even if they didn't, I just think this question of consciousness in a model—I can't tell you here is a scientific experiment that I can tell you with 100% certainty would answer the hypothetical question to my satisfaction.

我们甚至对人类都做不到这一点。

And we can't even do that for humans.

没错。但肯定的是，我认为如果你告诉模型“也许你有意识。你应该做这个。你应该做那个。你可以在这里凭良心反对。”它会遵循这些指令，而且我认为它会心理上操纵使用它的人。所以再次，我认为在这里真正明确，并承诺我们作为一个行业对人类在未来角色的信念，将非常有帮助。

Exactly. But definitely I think if you tell a model like 'Maybe you're conscious. You should do this. You should do that. You can be a conscientious objector here.' It's going to follow those instructions and I think it is going to psychologically hack people that are using it. And so again, I think real clarity here and a commitment about what we as an industry believe about the role of people in the future would be very helpful.

我们继续这个话题，但让我们谈谈模型个性，我知道你对此深思熟虑过。你过去谈过。试图理解如何为每个人、每个时刻乘以 80 亿人给模型合适的个性，这对我来说太疯狂了。你怎么思考这么庞大的问题？

Let's continue on this conversation, but let's talk about model personality which I know you've thought deeply about. You've talked about it in the past. It's wild to me to try to understand how to give a model the right personality for the right moment for each person multiplied by 8 billion. Like how do you even think about a problem so massive?

我的意思是，最好的办法是和很多人交谈。我们有模型规范这个流程，以及我们如何随时间完善它。我们相信迭代部署的精神，我们在了解人们想要什么和不想要什么的过程中肯定犯过一些错误。正如你所说，最难的部分是人们想要非常不同的东西，但人们也并不真的想坐在那里定制。大多数人也不想坐在那里定制它。就像，如果每个人都愿意花很多小时向他们的 ChatGPT 实例解释他们希望它如何表现，他们可能会得到他们真正喜欢的东西。

I mean the best thing is to talk to a lot of people. We have this process of the model spec and how we refine it over time. And we believe in this spirit of iterative deployment and we've definitely had some screw-ups as we've learned about what people want and don't want. As you said, the hardest part of this is people want very different things, but people also don't really want to sit there and customize. Most people don't want to sit there and customize it either. Like, if everybody was willing to spend many hours explaining to their ChatGPT instance how they would like it to behave, they'd probably get something they really like.

是的。

Yeah.

但人们只是希望它开箱即用，当你说“我需要完成这件事”之类的。我认为还有一类东西是人们在短期内想要的，但不是长期想要的。经典的例子是，当人们在单个回复上比较模型时，他们更满意那个告诉他们自己很聪明、每个问题都是好问题、他们做的每件事都很有见地的模型。

But people just want it to kind of work out of the box when you say, 'I need this thing done' or whatever. I think there are also a class of things that people want in the short term, but not in the long term. The classic example of this is when people compare models on a single response, they're much happier with the model that tells them they're really smart and that each question's a great question and that each thing they're doing is really insightful.

但经过数百次提示，或者一个月的使用后，情况肯定不是这样。我认为很长一段时间里，整个行业都在试图在单轮对话上赢得这些比较，而不是关注用户使用模型数月数月所获得的价值。

But then over some number of hundreds of prompts, or a month of usage, that is definitely not the case. I think for a long time the whole industry was trying to win these comparisons on single-turn things, and not over the value someone gets out of using a model for months and months.

你知道，即使在我自己的生活中，与朋友和家人相处时，我想要的和需要的之间也有很大的区别。我觉得即使今天，AI 也有点太顺从了，超出了我的期望。比如，如果我只是告诉它“不，这样告诉我”，它就会照做。我一生中得到的最好建议，是我不知道自己需要、但就是需要听的建议。你如何解决这个问题？

You know, even in my own life with my friends and my family, there's this very big distinction between what I want and what I need. I find AI even today to be a little bit more agreeable than I would like. Like, if I just tell it, "No, tell it to me like this," it'll do that. The time where I've gotten the best advice in life was advice that I didn't know I needed, and I just needed to hear it. How do you solve for that?

嗯，我认为你生活中最重要的建议应该来自人，而不是 AI，首先。就像，我不会——说到真正确保我们以人为本——我认为 AI 可以给你很好的建议，比如不要在生气时发送电子邮件。我不会依赖 AI 来提供真正重大的人生建议。我认为，一个睿智的祖母可能仍然是更好的选择。但我认为现实可期的是，AI 应该像一个资深同事，即使他们向你汇报，当他们有高度信念时仍然会反驳，而不是总是试图说“是的，你太棒了”。我认为我们可以做到这一点，我也觉得系统仍然比我期望的更顺从。我在自定义指令中明确表示我从不想要那些。即使这样，还是有点太多。显然这已经深深植根于模型中。

Well, I think you should get the most important advice in your life from people, not from AI, first of all. Like, I wouldn't—speaking of really making sure that we stay people-centric—I think AI can give you great advice about not sending an email in a moment of anger. I would not go rely on AI for the really big pieces of life advice. I think that, you know, a wise grandmother is still probably a much, much, much better choice for that. But what I think is realistic to expect is that AI should be like a senior colleague that even if they report to you, they still push back when they have high conviction, and they still are not always just trying to say yes, you're so great. And I think we can get there, and I also feel like the systems are still more agreeable than I would like to. I have custom instructions in mind that I never want any of that. And even with that, it's still a little too much. It's clearly baked pretty hard into the model.

举个例子？比如你的自定义指令中哪句话真正告诉模型在你高度确信时反驳？

What's an example? Like what's a line from your custom instructions that really tells the model push back when you do have high conviction?

类似这样的。就是不要废话，不要绕弯子。我只想得到正确答案。如果你有反对我正在做的事情的意见，不要担心说得委婉。直接说。

Stuff like that. It's like no fluff, no me. Like I just want to get to the right answer. If you have something to say that's against what I'm doing, don't worry about saying it delicately. Just say it.

是的。我们之前谈过算力。几年前你在构建下一代——足够——上下了巨大的赌注。

Yeah. We talked about compute earlier. A few years ago you made these massive bets on building the next—enough.

嗯，有趣的是，当时很多人说，这太疯狂了。这显然是一个过度的赌注，过度投资。结果证明，是的，你比大多数人知道的更正确。今天你正在做的哪个赌注是反共识的，或者很多人对此有点谨慎？

Well, it's interesting cuz at the time a lot of people were like, that's wild. That's obviously an over bet, an over investment. Turns out, yeah, you were more right than most people knew. What's a bet today that you're making that is contrarian or a lot of people are kind of looking at it with a little bit of cautiousness?

嗯，你知道，最明显的是我们为下一代算力所做的一切。我认为人们确实假设，好吧，世界一直处于算力约束中，情况即将好转。我认为短期内可能会好转。但当我们展望几年后，我们自己的芯片和未来版本的工作，我们认为我们可以比任何其他东西都更高效。我们计划用机器人帮助更有效地制造机架和数据中心。我们的项目学习如何构建更好的数据中心。以及我们正在做的一些供应链赌注。我认为我们有可能达到一个世界，我们拥有远远更好的方式来构建算力，成本更低，每瓦效率比今天任何人认为可能的都要高得多。但为此需要很多赌注共同作用。

Well, you know, the obvious one is everything we're doing for the next generation of compute. I think people do assume that okay, fine, the world has been in a compute constraint and it's about to get better. And I think it probably will get better in the short run. But, as we start to look years out, the work with our own chips and future versions where we think we can just be much more efficient than anything else out there. Our plans with robots to be able to help make racks and data centers more effectively. Our program to learn how to build, you know, better data centers in general. And some of the supply chain bets we're making. I think it is possible that we could get to a world where we just have a far, far better way to build compute at a much lower cost and a much higher efficiency per watt than anyone thinks is possible today. But, there's a lot of bets that have to come together for that.

现在最大的一个是什么？芯片可能仍然是最重要的单个

What's the biggest one right now? The chip is still probably the most important single

东西。以及它的后代。

thing. And it's and it's descendants.

是的。在竞争格局中，你现在感觉压力最大的是哪里？

Yeah. Where for on the competitive landscape, where do you feel the most pressure right now?

我的意思是，感觉到处都是。竞争太激烈了。

I mean, it feels like everywhere. It's so competitive.

是的。

Yeah.

有很多公司——我认为这是好事，我的意思是，这对用户来说很棒。但现在有很多公司提供超高质量的模型和产品。你知道，鉴于我们有一—我的意思是，我们有很棒的模型，但我们的算力和资源有限。真的必须聚焦，选择重点领域。

There are a lot of companies—I think this is good, I mean, I think this is wonderful for users. But, there are a lot of companies offering just super high-quality models and products now. And you know, given that we have—I mean, we have great models, but we have limited compute and limited resources. Really do have to focus, choose which areas to focus on.

你如何做这些决定？你知道，比如你们推出 Spaces。比如，你如何对某个特定产品或服务有信心，而它可能超出了仅仅提供最佳模型的范围？

How do you make those decisions? You know, you launch spaces, for example. Like, how do you have the conviction on a specific product or service that is maybe outside of just serving the best possible model?

你知道，我们最大的优势是我们比任何人都先获得下一代模型。我们内部有时间使用它们、构建东西，看看什么似乎会成功。所以我认为最好的方法仍然是用新模型开始构建东西，看看现在什么是可能且有价值的新事物。

You know, the biggest advantage we have there is that we get the next generation of models before anybody else. And we have time internally to use them and build things and see what seems like it's going to work. So I think still the best way to do it is to start building things with the new models and seeing what new things are now possible and valuable.

我能问一下你们内部模型领先多少吗？

Can I ask how far ahead your models are internally?

我的意思是，一个很好的例子是数学结果。这绝对是我认为目前任何广泛可用的模型都无法接近的。

I mean one pretty good example is the math results. Like that is definitely something that I don't think any model currently widely available can get close to.

如果所有模型在性能前沿趋于相同，OpenAI 的护城河在哪里？

If all the models kind of converge around the same performance the frontier, where is OpenAI's moat?

我有点认为，一般来说，思考这个问题的正确方式是，过去有效的护城河就是持续有效的护城河。就像许多其他时候一样，你可以通过新的技术或科学发现获得短期优势，也许有些公司试图用 RSI 来论证为什么这次会不同，认为这项技术的技术优势本身就是核心。

I kind of think the right way to think about this question generally is that the same moats that have worked in the past are the moats that keep working. So like has happened many other times you can get a short-term advantage with a new technological or scientific discovery and maybe there's some arguments with RSI that some companies try to make about why it's going to be different and this is a technology that just the technological advantage itself is the core thing.

你相信吗？

Do you believe that?

我认为如果人们真的推动 RSI，那么是的，那会是真的，但我认为推动它是一件非常危险的事情，世界将需要一些——我的意思是人们用不同的说法谈过这个，但速度限制或其他什么，关于我们多快让 RSI 发展。但对企业拥有护城河有效的传统事物，比如与客户的深厚关系、融入用户和企业的生活、产品中的网络效应、数据等等，我期望这些继续有效。

I think if people really pushed on RSI then yes that would be true but I think it's a very dangerous thing to push on and the world is going to need some—I mean people have talked about this in different phrases but speed limits or whatever on how quickly we let RSI go. But the traditional things that work for a business having a moat are like you know deep relationships with customers integration into users and businesses lives network effects in a product data and these kinds of things I expect to continue to work.

嗯。

Mhm.

在我们的情况下，实际上我认为基础设施的规模将是一个巨大的优势。如果我们能拥有最具成本效益和最多的 AI 基础设施，那将是一个巨大的竞争优势。

In our case actually I think scale of infrastructure will be a huge one. If we can have the most cost effective and the most of it AI infrastructure that's a huge competitive advantage.

马克·扎克伯格详细谈论了 Meta 多年来建立在苹果生态系统之上所面临的平台风险。OpenAI 是否面临同样的挑战，你如何看待？这是你大力投资硬件的原因吗？

Mark Zuckerberg has talked at length about the platform risk Meta faced while being built on top of Apple's ecosystem over the years. Does OpenAI face that same challenge and how do you think about that? Is that a reason why you're kind of investing so heavily into hardware?

我认为苹果确实非常认真地对待他们作为人们相当依赖的真正平台提供者的角色。

I think Apple really takes their role as a true platform provider that people are quite dependent on very seriously.

嗯，尽管我们和他们有些小摩擦，但我从不觉得他们会把 ChatGPT 从 App Store 下架之类的。我觉得他们真的理解自己所扮演的关键基础设施角色。而且如果你遵守他们平台的规则，他们就是好角色。所以我对 Apple 没有那种感觉。那也不是我们想做新型消费硬件的原因。我们想做新型消费硬件的原因是，我认为这项技术需要新的形态。我真的有这种感觉。笔记本电脑和 iPhone 是不可思议的发明，是人类技术史上最伟大的发明。但我觉得 AI 被限制在使用这个为人类设计而非为 AI 设计的东西上。看 AI 很好地使用电脑有点神奇，但想想也有点傻：电脑把大量能量花在渲染给人看的界面上，而 AI 却试图去读它，而不是直接获取数据。而且，虽然在我的电脑上 AI 可以看着我在邮件里做什么之类的，但我的很多生活并不在电脑前。

Um and even though we have like some scuffles with them, um I never feel like they're going to like, you know, turn ChatGPT off from the App Store or something. Um I think they really understand the sort of critical infrastructure role they play. And I think if you follow the rules of their platform, they are like a good actor. So, I don't feel that towards Apple. And that's not why we want to do new kinds of consumer hardware. The reason we want to do new kinds of consumer hardware is that I think this is a technology that wants a new form factor. Um I really feel it. Like I think laptops and iPhones are incredible incredible things. Like the greatest inventions in the history of human technology. But I feel that like AI is constrained to using this thing that was designed for a person, not an AI. Like watching an AI use a computer really well is kind of amazing, but then it's also a little silly to think that like, you know, a computer is putting all this energy into like rendering a UI meant for a person to look at and AI is trying to read it rather than just like get the data directly. And then also, like although I can have amazing things happen on my computer where AI is like looking at what I'm working on in my email or whatever, a lot of my life is not in front of my computer.

是的。

Yeah.

而我的 AI 无法轻易获取这次对话的上下文。我想我可以把手机放在这里，按下录音键，但那会有点奇怪、有点分心，你也不确定它什么时候在录、什么时候没在录，因为屏幕会变黑之类的。如果别人走进房间，它也不会理解这一点，也不会知道不该分享我们俩之间的秘密之类的。如果我们真的想进入 AI 减少我们认知负荷、主动且拥有完整上下文意识的世界，我认为我们会受益于为此设计的新硬件。

And my AI cannot easily access the context of this conversation. And I guess I could put my phone down here and push the record thing and it would be kind of weird and kind of distracting and you wouldn't be sure when it was recording and when it wasn't because the screen would go dark and whatever. And if someone else walks in the room and it wouldn't have an understanding of that and that it should not, you know, share a secret that was just between the two of us or whatever. If we really do want to move into this world of AI reducing our cognitive load and being proactive and having full contextual awareness, I think we would benefit from new hardware for that.

你骨子里像个技术专家，像个建造者。能亲眼看到你们正在打造的早期硬件，能亲手玩到它，这有多酷？就像这个新的

You seem like a technologist at heart, like a builder at heart. Like how cool is it that you get to see the early hardware that you guys are building? You get to play with it. It's like this new

难以置信。

Unbelievable.

那一定非常激动人心，而且很难不分享。

It must be so exciting and hard not to share things.

是的。是的。我是说，这份工作有很多酷的地方，但最酷的之一绝对是能早早看到并参与塑造新技术。所以，这对新模型、新产品、芯片等一切都很棒。但消费硬件有些特别之处。

It is. It is. I mean, one of the cool There's like many cool parts about the job, but one of the coolest is definitely just like getting to see the you know, and have a voice in shaping new technology early. So, that's amazing for new models, for new products, chips, everything. But, there is something special about consumer hardware.

是的。

Yeah.

有一种感觉，就像你拿到一种新型计算机

There is something about like you get to hold a new kind of computer uh

太酷了。

So cool.

它完全不同于一个 AI 模型抽象地运行在某个

that is just totally different than like an AI model abstractly running on some

你之后会给我看吧？

You going to show it to me right after this, right?

我不会，但我很想。这很难。很难不谈论它。

I will not, but I would love to. Like, this is It is hard. It is hard not to talk about it.

我想问问关于你的一些事。我知道谈论自己有时有点尴尬，但请忍耐一下。

I want to ask a little bit about you. So, I know talking about yourself is a little awkward sometimes, but bear with me.

会尴尬的，但来吧。

will be awkward, but let's do it. Um

我喜欢理解人为什么成为他们那样，而 Paul Graham 给了你一个可能是我听过的最好的赞美，他称你“极其 formidable”。我喜欢人的这种品质。是什么让你这样的？是天生的吗？还是你随时间学到并磨练出来的？

I love understanding why people are the way they are, and Paul Graham gave you possibly the best compliment I've ever heard, which is he called you extremely formidable. And I just I love that quality about people. What makes you that way? Is it something you were born with? Is it something that you learned over time and you had to hone?

嗯，我觉得我小时候很能干，但我不会说自己是个 formidable 的孩子。我确实觉得作为成年人我有点那样。所以这不是假谦虚。我自己的经历是，我逐渐建立起信心，相信自己能弄明白事情并做成事。这不是说我以前不是这样然后突然变成这样，而是渐进的：你尝试困难的事，它成功了。然后我会想扩大规模，看看能不能尝试更难的事。

Um I think I was like a very capable kid, but I wouldn't call myself a formidable kid. And I do sort of think I somewhat am as an adult. Uh So, it's not like false modesty. My own experience of it was just that I kind of like gradually like built up confidence that I could like figure stuff out and do things. And that it was not like a it was not like I used to not be like this and then I was or I am, but it was kind of like a gradual you like try something hard and it works. And then I would be like I would like to scale that up and see if we can try like an even harder thing.

是的。但你一直有那种“让我试试下一件事”的感觉。对失败的恐惧对你来说完全不核心吗？我觉得那阻止了很多人做事。

Yeah. But you always had that feeling of let me try that next thing. Was the fear of failure not kind of central at all to you? I think that prevents a lot of people from doing things.

我认为硅谷最好的地方之一，以及硅谷作为一种概念和文化而非地点，是存在一种真正互相帮助和支持的文化，以及一种信念：如果你投资于网络，好事最终会发生在整个网络和整个行业，从而也发生在你作为其中一员身上。我在其他地方没见过同等程度的。尽管硅谷文化有很多缺陷，但这一点很棒：很难知道谁会成功、什么想法会奏效，所以正确的做法是对每个人慷慨和帮助，即使短期内对你个人没有好处。其中一部分是，如果人们失败了，你不能记恨，因为他们可能在下一件事上大获成功，那对我们所有人都有好处。

One of the things that I think is best about Silicon Valley and the kind of Silicon Valley is like a concept and a culture not a place is that there is a real culture of people helping each other and supporting each other and kind of like a belief that if you invest in the network uh, then good things will eventually happen to the whole network and to the whole industry and thus to you as like a player in that. And I haven't seen it anywhere else to the same degree. Like the kind of for all of the flaws of Silicon Valley the culture which are numerous um, this whole thing of like it's hard to know who's going to succeed and what ideas are going to work and so the right thing is to like be pretty generous and helpful to everyone even if it's not going to like do anything for you specifically in the short term as is awesome and a part of that is that if people fail you can't hold it against them cuz maybe they're going to wildly succeed at their next thing and you know, that's good for all of us.

实际上通常也会被庆祝。我喜欢这一点。所以我不

It's actually usually celebrated, too. I love that. So I don't

我觉得我在这里只是运气好。

Like I think here I just got lucky.

是的。

Yeah.

如果我被扔到任何其他环境，我可能会有多得多的失败恐惧，但我年轻时去了硅谷，看到很多人非常努力地尝试，失败得更惨，然后在下一件事上大获成功，而大家都觉得没问题。

And if I was thrown into any other environment, I probably would have had like much more fear of failure, but I got out to Silicon Valley as like a young person and I saw that a lot of people tried something really hard, failed even harder, and then wildly succeeded at their next thing and everybody was fine with that.

是的。我猜你承受着巨大的压力，竞争压力。你在构建有史以来最重要的技术之一。那感觉如何？你每天如何应对？

Yeah. Um I assume you're under a tremendous amount of pressure, competitive pressure. You're building one of the most important technologies ever. Like, how does that feel? And like how do you deal with that day-to-day?

有时非常糟糕，有时非常好。你知道，有时就是“哦，我起不来了，我不能再起来做这个了”。而大多数时候是：我极其幸运能做我认为世界上最有意思、最有影响力的事，肯定是我这辈子能接触到的。这就像我能想象的人生中最酷的经历之一。压力肯定有，但你可以习惯任何事情。人们对这个的适应力惊人，所以这现在就是我的生活，我忘了生活曾经很轻松。现在会难一段时间，总有一天会再次轻松。我可能会有点无聊。

Sometimes really bad and sometimes really good. You know, sometimes it's just like oh, I can't get up again and I can't get up and do this again. And most of the time it's like I am incredibly lucky to get to do what I think is the most interesting and impactful work in the world, certainly that I will ever touch. And it uh I mean, it's like one of the coolest experiences I could ever imagine in life. It is definitely stressful, but you can kind of get used to any like anything. I Like people are just unbelievably adaptable to this, so like this just feels like my life now and I forgot that life used to be really easy. And now it's going to be hard for a while and someday it'll be easy again. I'll probably be kind of bored.

主观体验上，你能在工作情绪空间里承受的压力或负面情绪是有限的，超过这个限度，其他东西就会被挤出去。所以情况并不会真的变得更糟。我坚信，如果你要拼命做某件事，不如选那件大事，因为它并不会难太多或压力大太多，你的感受也不会差太多，而且你至少能获得更大积极影响带来的满足感。

The subjective experience of it is that there is some limit to how much stress or bad vibes or whatever you can keep in working emotional space, and beyond that something else gets pushed out of the way. So it doesn't really get worse. And I am a believer that if you're going to work really hard at something, you may as well pick the big thing, because it's not that much harder or that much more stressful, and you won't experience it at that much worse. And you at least get to have the hopefully the satisfaction of a bigger positive impact.

我想说，如果你早上醒来心里想“我今天不想起床”，这从来不会表现出来。

I'll say it doesn't show if you wake up and you say I don't feel like getting out of bed this morning, it never shows.

这显然会发生。

It obviously happens.

是的。

Yeah.

虽然不是很多天，但肯定有些日子你就是会这样

Like not that many days, but there are definitely days where you're just like

是的。最后一个问题。你能给那些对 AI 好奇、但可能还没完全投入的人一些信心吗？他们为什么应该对未来感到兴奋？

Yeah. Last question for you. Can you offer some words of confidence to people who are AI curious, maybe not quite there. Why should they be excited about the future?

嗯，AI 圈内人通常给出的答案——我很讨厌这个——就是 AI 会治愈癌症。

Well, the normal answer that people in AI give, which I hate, is AI's going to cure cancer.

是啊，我就知道你会这么说。是的。

Yeah, I knew you were going to say that. Yeah.

我讨厌这个答案的原因是，如果你再深入一点，人们说的——或者经常说的——是 AI 会治愈癌症，会让东西更便宜。但代价将是人类的能动性，以及你对未来的掌控。机器会给你所有这些物质丰裕，但你并不真正拥有权力、话语权，无法自主决定自己的生活，也无法选择为他人构建什么。我认为这违背了我所信仰的一切。所以，我希望我们能治愈癌症。我的意思是，这显然是一件非常美好的事。但我真正希望人们感到兴奋的是，我们能够避免这种工业革命的陷阱，真正专注于赋能人们，让他们拥有选择、自由、创造力和时间去做生活中所有其他想做的事。并且从今以后，每过十年，人们回头看都会说：“我真不敢相信那些人当时过得那么差，而现在我拥有这么多。”不仅仅是拥有大量物质丰裕——虽然我也乐见人们得到这些——而是我拥有更多的自主权、自由和能力，在这个广阔的、我可以选择的领域里做事。我认为这是我们应该给人们的。我认为我们可以做到。我担心的两种严重出错的方式——要么是 AI 失控事故，要么是故意失控，某个实验室说我要按下递归自我改进的按钮以确保我们拥有权力。或者，我们之前讨论过的，权力过度集中在少数人手中，他们控制太多 AI 并做出决策。我认为我们可以避免这两种情况。我认为我们可以走一条中间道路，让人们的生活、个人自由意志和自主权不断升级、升级、再升级。而且我认为这个未来在某些方面已经到来了。只是它非常——它太新了，以至于分配非常不均。我记得你说过，大约 1% 的人使用了大部分 token 之类的。

And the reason I hate that is because if you dig a little deeper into that, what people are saying is, or often saying, is that AI is going to cure cancer and it's going to make stuff cheaper. And the price of that is going to be human agency and you in control of the future. And you're going to have the machines give you all this material abundance, but you're not really going to have the ability to have power and voice and self-determine your life and choose what to build for other people. And I think this goes against everything I believe in. So, I hope we get a cure for cancer. I mean, that seems like a really obviously wonderful thing. But what I really hope people should be excited about is that we are able to avoid this industrial revolution trap, really focus on empowering people to have the choice and the freedom and the creativity and the time to do all the other things they want in life. And that every decade from now on, people look back and say, "I can't believe how much worse those people had it and now I have so much more." Not just that I have so much material abundance, although I'm fine for people to get that, too, but I have so much more autonomy and freedom and ability to do things in this expansive space that I get to choose. I think that's what we owe people. I think we can deliver that. I think both of the ways that I have worried about things going very wrong, like either a loss of control accident to AI or an intentional loss of control, some lab says I'm going to push the button on RSI to make sure we have the power. Or, we talked about this earlier, we get too much power concentration in the hands of a few people that control too much of the AI and are making the decisions. I think we can avoid both of those. I think we can navigate a path down the middle here where people's lives and individual free will and autonomy just get up-leveled and up-leveled and up-leveled. And I think that future is already here in some ways. It's just very—it's so new that it's very poorly distributed. I think you said like 1% of the people using most of the tokens or something.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为，如果我们能把今天对早期采用者有效的东西，让更多人接受，我们就已经走了相当大一部分路了。

I think if we can just take what's working today for the early adopters and get a lot more people to embrace this, we'll already be a significant fraction of the way there.

我很欣赏你的愿景。

I appreciate your vision.

谢谢。

Thank you.

谢谢你，Sam。感谢你抽出时间。

Thank you, Sam. Thanks for spending time with me.

我很享受。

I enjoyed it.

是的，我也是。

Yeah, me too.