如何在 AI 设计时代脱颖而出：走进 Magic Patterns

今天我的嘉宾是 Alex Danilowicz，Magic Patterns 的联合创始人兼 CEO。Magic Patterns 是一款 AI 设计工具，能在几分钟内把你从想法变成真正可交互的代码原型。我们会深入看看 Magic Patterns 是如何工作的，听听他作为非设计师的创业故事，然后点评一些创业公司的网站，帮它们看起来不那么“vibe coding”感。Alex，感谢你来参加。

Today I'm joined by Alex Danilowicz, co-founder and CEO of Magic Patterns, an AI design tool that takes you from an idea to a real interactive codeback prototype in minutes. We'll look under the hood to see how Magic Patterns works, hear his origin story as a non-designer, and then review some startup websites to help make them look a little bit less vibecoded. Alex, thank you for joining.

谢谢 Aaron，感谢邀请。我关注这个节目很久了。

Thanks, Aaron. Thanks for having me. I've been watching the show for a long time.

哦，很高兴你能来。也许先开始，多讲讲，Magic Patterns 是什么，你构建它的目标是什么？

Oh, it's awesome to have you on. Maybe to start, tell us more, what is Magic Patterns and what were your goals in building it?

好的，Magic Patterns 是一款 AI 设计工具。产品经理、创始人、专业设计师都用我们来可视化地沟通他们的想法，无论是通过原型、交互式 mockup，还是可导出的生产就绪代码。

Yeah, so Magic Patterns is an AI design tool. Product managers, founders, professional designers all use us to visually communicate their ideas, whether it's through a prototype, interactive mockup, or a code ready export for production.

你并非设计背景出身，所以谈谈构建这个产品的灵感来源。

You don't come from a design background and so talk a little bit about the inspiration for building this.

是的。我们的独特之处在于我们是非设计师。我和我的联合创始人都是前端工程师出身。实际上，当我们进入 YC 批次时，我们的 YC 导师告诉我们，做你真正擅长的事。你真正了解什么？对我们来说，那就是把 Figma mockup 翻译成代码。Magic Patterns 就是这样诞生的。这是我们一直想要的产品。我一直不擅长 Figma，我们只是觉得，等等，作为创始人，我做很多前端工程，也必须做很多设计，有没有一个更直观、对像我这样的非设计师更容易的工具？

Yeah, it does. We are unique in that we are non-designers. My co-founder and I. We are by trade front-end engineers. And actually when we got into the YC batch, our YC partner told us do something that you're really good at. What are you what do you know really well? And for us that was translating Figma mockups into code. And that's how Magic Patterns was born. It was the product that we always wanted ourselves. There was something always there where I was never really good at Figma and we just felt like well wait a second I'm doing lots of front-end engineering as a founder I have to do lots of design what is a tool that is more intuitive and easier for non-designers like myself

而这是很多提示到设计工具或提示到原型工具出现的早期，对吧？你们实际上是最早做这个的之一。

And this was the early days of a lot of prompt to design tools or prompt to prototype tools coming out right you guys were actually one of the first that was doing that

我们确实是第一批，当我们在 2023 年 10 月推出时，市场上唯一类似我们的其他工具是 Vzero。

We were certainly one of the first when we launched in October 2023, the only other tool on the market similar to us was Vzero.

回顾过去，那甚至是在聊天功能出现之前。模型太差了，没有聊天。没有来回对话。真的只是提示，得到一个设计。提示，得到一个设计。没有与智能体的实际交互。你申请了 YC，你有一个不同的想法。所以也许谈谈一些起源故事，你如何遇到你的联合创始人，你在 YC 的时光，然后最终是什么导致你构建这个。

And if you look back, that was before even chat was a thing. The models were so bad that there was no chat. There was no back and forth conversation. It was literally just prompt, you get a design. Prompt, you get a design. No actual interaction with the agent. You applied to YC and you you had a different idea. And so maybe talk about some of the the origin story of how you met your co-founder um your time during YC and then ultimately what led you to building this.

是的。我和我的联合创始人实际上是以一个短信分析器申请 YC 的。你的顶级群聊，你的顶级词汇，你在 2026 年所有群聊中发送的最有趣的东西。嗯，我们有收入，我认为这就是我们进入 YC 的原因。但我们进去后，我们的 YC 导师告诉我们，“嘿，这是你们的公司。这是个还行的想法，但我强烈建议你们做你们真正非常了解的事情。”对我们来说，再次，那就是前端工程和用代码实现 Figma mockup。然后在我们所有的转型中，这基本上就是我们关注的。

Yeah. So my co-founder and I we actually applied to YC with a text message analyzer. Your top group chat, your top word, what's the funniest thing you sent in 2026 across all your group chats. Um and we had revenue which I think is why we got into YC. But we get in and our YC partner tells us, "Hey, this is this is your company. It's an okay idea, but I highly recommend you do something that you know really really well." And for us, again, that was front-end engineering and implementing Figma mockups by code. And then so then during all of our pivots, that's pretty much what we focused on.

你们花了多长时间才想到最终成为 Magic Patterns 的想法？

How long did it take you to get to the idea that ultimately became magic patterns?

花了大约 9 个月。我们一直围绕它转。所以再次，我们在做一个组件库编辑器。我们在做有点像加强版的 Storybook。我们有一个 Chrome 扩展，允许你引入 localhost 并立即发布到互联网上，作为一种反馈工具，后来成为 Magic Patterns 的一个功能。在所有这些中，我学到的主要是经典的 PG 建议：找到 10 个真正爱你的用户。那些转型都没有。我们没有 10 个真正爱我们的用户，爱定义为他们在付钱给你并且在使用你。然后一旦我们推出后来成为 Magic Patterns 的产品，那 10 个用户很快就来了。

It took us about 9 months. We were always circulating around it. So again, we were doing a component library editor. We were doing kind of storybook on steroids. We had a Chrome extension that allowed you to bring local host um and instantly publish it on the internet as kind of like a feedback tool that later became a feature of of Magic Patterns. And throughout all of that, the main thing that I learned was that classic PG advice, find 10 users who really love you. None of those pivots. We had we didn't have any 10 users that really loved us where love is defined as they're paying you and they're using you. And then once we launched what became Magic Patterns, those 10 users came very quickly.

在一个设计工具似乎每 6 个月就大幅升级的世界里，你如何保持差异化？你们是最早的提示到设计产品之一。那么你如何在其中找到你的受众，并保持领先，尤其是随着模型不断改进？

How do you stay differentiated in a world where it feels like the design tools keep leveling up significantly every 6 months? And you guys were one of the the original prompt to design products that are out there. And so how do you find your audience in that and and keep staying ahead of the game especially as the models continue to improve as well?

我以前在视频里说过，客户是我们的宗教。

I've said this before on a video like customers are our religion

嗯。

Mhm.

每天与他们交谈，然后也适应新的工作流程。例如，大约一年前，我们作为内部黑客松项目发布了一个 MCP。

talking to them every single day and then also adapting to new workflows. As an example, we released an MCP about a year ago as part of a hackathon project internally.

嗯。

Mhm.

我们没想到它会有什么发展，现在 MCP 的使用已经完全爆发。这是人们与 Magic Patterns 互动的主要方式之一。所以你总是几乎要重生你的公司，以适应新的工作流程，尤其是在 AI 世界。

We didn't think it would go anywhere and now MCP usage has completely exploded. It's one of the main ways that people interact with magic patterns. And so you always have to be almost rebirthing your company to uh adjust to new workflows, especially in the AI world.

我很想看看演示。你能给我们展示一下它是如何工作的吗？

I I'd love to see a demo. Can you show us uh a little bit about how it works?

好的，来吧。我觉得一个好的开始是，我展示一下我们内部如何使用它。

Yeah, let's do it. I think one thing that would be good to start is I'll show you how we use it internally.

你们总是在吃自己的狗粮，对吧？

And you're always dog fooding your product, right?

我们痴迷于吃自己的狗粮，但我们从不强迫吃狗粮，因为那样你就得不到真正的，

We are obsessed with dog fooding, but we never force the dog fooding because then it's you're not getting actual,

对吧？它必须足够好，以至于你真的想要它，并选择它作为你的工具。对。

right? has to be good enough that you actually want that and you choose that to be your tool. Right.

正是如此。然后注意当你没有选择它的时候。所以我们一直在吃自己的狗粮，为我们自己的产品创建加载指示器。所以你知道我们有《机器人总动员》里的瓦力和伊娃，或者如果你玩过《传送门》这个电子游戏，我们正在思考作为加载指示器可能是什么样子。这里很妙的是，这里的一切都是全局聊天。所以我们可以做任何更新，并同时进行多个更新，对吧？比如，我可以选择这两个。说，给我一个新的加载指示器风格，融合 Claude Code 图标和 Grok 机器人的灵感。而且真正妙的是，当然你可以使用 MCP。所以让我们继续做，只是为了展示一下。我将进入 Cursor，通过使用我们的 MCP，我可以直接提示，添加一个我的智能体的 asky 版本。真正妙的是，我们看到很多企业使用这个，他们有大量的上下文，比如在 Cursor 或 Claude Code 中，无论是 PRD 和会议记录。所以他们可以利用他们已经拥有的所有技能，然后立即把它放到这个视觉画布上，更好地沟通。

Exactly. And then noting when you don't choose it. And so we've been dog fooding creating our loading indicator for our own product. So you know we have Wall-E Eve from Wall-E or some of the if you ever played Portal the video game we were thinking through that kind of what that might look like as a loading indicator. What's neat here is everything here is a global chat. So we can make uh any updates and and make several updates at once, right? Like as an example, I could select the two of these. Say, give me a new style of loading indicator that merges the inspiration of the Claude Code icon and the Grok Bot. And what's really neat, too, is of course you can use the MCP. So let's go ahead and do that just to kind of show it. I'm going to go into cursor here and through using our MCP I can just go ahead and prompt right add an asky version of my agent. What's really neat is we're seeing lots of enterprises use this where they have so much context like in cursor or Claude Code whether it's PRDs and and meeting notes. So they can leverage all the skills that they already have but then instantly kind of put it on this visual canvas to better communicate.

是的，这很有趣。所以，你在 Magic Patterns 中有这个强大的画布，当它是最适合的工具时，你可以直接在那里工作，而当你想在代码或 Cursor 中工作时，你可以通过 MCP 直接从那里拉取。

Yeah, it's interesting. So, you've got this powerful canvas in in magic patterns where when that's the best tool for the job, you can be working directly in there and when you want to be working in code or in cursor, another app, you can just pull directly from that through the MCP.

是的，正是如此。而且很酷的是，我们有很多客户来找我们说，我在用 Cursor 和 Claude Code，但它给了我 localhost。我无法分享

Yeah, exactly. And what's cool too is we have so many customers that come up to us and say, I'm using cursor and Claude Code, but it gave me local host. I can't share

我无法与任何人分享我的原型。

I can't share my prototype with anybody.

哦，我们有个解决方案给你。对吧。

Say, oh, well, we have a solution for you. Right.

是的。是的。所以这里很酷的是，我们实际上可以看到我的同事在这里，以及我们发出的那个 Cursor 提示所生成的 Cursor 智能体，对吧？所以它们同时在工作，我们可以直接打开这个。

Yeah. Yeah. So, what's cool here is actually we can see my colleague on here as well as the cursor agent from that cursor prompt that we fired off, right? And so, they're working simultaneously and we can go ahead and just open this up here.

我们可以看到这就像是 Claude Code 的简易版本，对吧？嗯，然后随便玩玩，哦，不同颜色会是什么样子？现在，显然这非常像 Claude Code。我们只是在这里获取灵感，来制作我们自己的加载指示器。它生成了整个页面来展示它完成的工作。

We can see this is like that asy version uh of of Claude Code, right? Um, and kind of playing around, oh, what would it look like with different colors? Now, obviously, this is very cloud codeesque. We're just kind of getting inspiration here uh to make our own loading indicator. and it generated this entire page showing off the work that it had done.

是的，没错。所以我们鼓励用户做的一件事，也是我们亲眼看到用户会做的，就是解释各种选择和不同的状态。

Yeah, exactly. So, like one thing that we encourage users to do and we've seen users do ourselves is explaining kind of the choices and the different states.

所以，嗯，作为另一个例子，如果你看看这个，我们当时在思考，嗯，它在不同屏幕尺寸下看起来怎么样？如果它是 Claude Code 又会是什么样子？我们还在琢磨它应该更像头盔还是更像枕头，对吧？再次，只是头脑风暴和探索。这就是我们看到用户在我们这样的工具中获得最大价值的地方。

So, uh as another example here, if you kind of look at this one, we were thinking through, well, what does it look like at different screen sizes? What does it again look like if it's Claude Code? kind of playing around with should it look more like a helmet or like a pillow, right? Again, just brainstorming and exploration. That's where we see users get the most value in a tool like ours.

是的。我的意思是，我认为在想法和灵感阶段，最有价值的事情之一就是能够快速生成一堆不同的变体。很多时候，嗯，管理这些变体很难，它们都在不同的标签页里之类的。而 Magic Patterns 似乎能够直接给你一堆漂亮的标签页和选项，并枚举所有内容，比如这里有一堆颜色选项，这里有主体选项，这里有不同智能体选项。以一种非常集中统一的方式来做这件事真的很酷，可以实际进行调整和探索，找到你喜欢的，然后能够更快地进入流程的下一步。

Yeah. I mean, that's I think one of the most valuable things at the idea and inspiration stage is just being able to fire off a bunch of different variations. And a lot of times, um, it's hard to manage those and they're all in different tabs and stuff. And it seems like Magic Patterns is able to just give you a bunch of nice tabs and options and kind of enumerates everything's like like here's a bunch of color options, here's body options, here's different agent options. And it's really cool to do that in a very um centralized uniform way to actually make the tweaks and explore, find what you like, and then be able to move on faster to the next step in the flow.

完全正确。因为我认为过去一年软件开发的变化，尤其是最后阶段现在被极度压缩了。太容易了。大家都在谈论这个，对吧？工程师们以光速前进。有太多的 PR 需要审查。因此，我们可以花更多时间真正进行头脑风暴，思考该构建什么、不该构建什么，并使用像 Magic OS 这样的工具来真正可视化和思考不同的想法和概念、错误状态、加载状态，嗯，当多个智能体在一个文件上工作时会发生什么。实际上我觉得这个很酷，当时我们在思考，好吧，很多人使用 MCP 来使用我们的产品，他们可能通过 Cursor 或 Claude Code 或 Codex 来使用，并思考那会是什么样子，通过 Magic OS 我们实际上头脑风暴了这种 LED 风格的设计。

Totally. Because I think what's changed about software development in the last year especially is the end stage is so compressed now. It's so easy. Everyone's talking about this, right? How engineers are just moving at the speed of light. There's too many PRs to review. And so, as a result, we can spend more time actually brainstorming, thinking about what to build and what not to build and using something like Magic OS to really visualize and think through the different ideas and concepts, error states, loading states, uh what happens when it's multiple agents working on a file. Here's actually I think this one is really cool where we were thinking through well okay lots of folks use the MCP to use our product and they might be using it through cursor or Claude Code or Codex and thinking through what that might look like and through magic OS we actually brainstorm kind of this like LED style um design

所以整个页面是一个画布吗？

and so is this whole page a canvas?

是的。所以这整个就是一个画布。嗯，很酷的是我们还把它几乎看作一个画板，对吧？你可以带入任何上下文，无论是图像还是 PRD 或文档。而且很棒的是我们在这里不被单个线程阻塞，对吧？所以，历史上，当你使用很多这些设计和原型工具时，你有点必须等待 AI 智能体完成，对吧？但在这些中的任何一个上，我们这里有很多很多线程。所以我可以回到我们最初做的，嗯，当我们在这个画布上创建第一个设计时。

Yeah. So, this is all a canvas. Um, and what's cool is we also think of it as almost like an artboard, right? Where you can bring in any of your context, whether that's images or PRDs or documentation. And again, what's neat is we're not blocked here by a single thread, right? So, historically, when you use lots of these design tools and prototyping tools, you kind of have to wait for the AI agent to finish, right? But on any of these, we have many, many threads here. So, I can go back to kind of what we first did. uh when we first created our our first design here on this canvas.

我知道你总体上对画布作为界面有过反复思考，嗯，谈谈你的想法以及你在这个前沿领域的发现，关于什么时候有意义、什么时候没有。

I know you've kind of gone back and forth on canvases in general um as as an interface and just talk about your thinking and and what you've discovered kind of being at the frontier of that for when it makes sense and when it doesn't.

完全正确。所以我实际上会展示一下，我们拥有画布已经很久了。你刚才看到的是画布 2.0，但我们拥有画布大约两年了。我们学到的是，实际上顺便说一句，我们正在招聘，我们正在招聘一名设计师。我们招聘设计师的原因之一是我们遇到的一个问题，就是思考最初的入门体验，几乎像是渐进式披露，好吧，什么时候让用户知道他们可以使用画布，而不是仅仅一个聊天线程，才有意义。我们最初的一个学习是，画布不一定适合所有人。实际上，我们发布的新产品，我们有意称它为 OS，因为它是你所有上下文的操作系统。所以当然界面是画布，对吧？我们在这里看到我们的图像，你可以带入文档然后做设计，但它不是传统意义上的画布，不像 Figma 那样一边有一堆工具。

Totally. So I'll actually show that where we've had a canvas for a long time. What you just kind of saw is canvas 2.0, but we've had a canvas for roughly two years now. And what we learned and actually We're hiring, by the way, we're hiring a designer. One of the reasons that we're hiring a designer is one of our issues that we've had is thinking through that initial onboarding experience and almost like this progressive disclosure of okay, when does it make sense for users to know that they can use a canvas versus just kind of a single chat thread. One of the initial learnings that we had is like a canvas is not necessarily for everyone. And actually this new product that we've released, we're intentionally calling it an OS because it's an operating system for all of your context. So of course like the interface is a canvas, right? We see here our images and you can bring in documents and then make designs, but it's not a canvas in the traditional sense where something like Figma and having a bunch of tools on one side.

是的。所以它更像是你有画布一样的画板，你可以进去自定义。嗯，你还谈到了前端，能够看到实际体验你正在做的设计是什么样子，而不仅仅是这些静态文件。也许你能给我们展示一些相关的东西？

Yeah. So, it's it's more like you've you've got canvas like artboards that you can get in there and you can customize. Um, you also talked about front end and being able to see what it's like to actually experience the design that you're making and not just have these static files. Maybe can you show us something around that?

酷。所以，是的，我们在这里做另一个例子。对我们来说非常非常有趣的一件事是我们在世界各地举办所谓的 Magic Patterns 聚会。我一直在想，我想给我们的用户寄这些聚会的明信片。所以，让我们从头开始。让我们继续添加一些上下文。所以我基本上有这些我拉取的图片，嗯，以及我们举办的活动中的所有描述。举个例子，我刚刚在 Colia 实际上主持了我称之为 Magic Patterns Medí 的活动，我们在那里遇到了一些高级用户。我了解到 Magic Patterns 在一所大学里被教授，这超级酷。我还有这个提示，对吧？嗯，如果我们打开这里，这是我刚刚想出的一个提示，像是橡皮图章旅行笔记现场海报。所以很酷的是，我可以直接告诉我们的智能体参考我在画布上的提示，然后为每个城市和图像制作明信片。

Cool. So, yeah, let's do another example here. One thing that is really, really fun for us is we do what we call magic patterns meetups all over the world. And I've been thinking about I want to send our users postcards from these meetups. So, let's take this from the top. So, let's go ahead and add some context. So, I have basically these pictures that I've pulled uh and all of these descriptions from our events that we hosted. So, as an example, I was just in Colia actually hosting um what I called Magic Patterns Medí and we met some power users there. I learned that magic patterns was taught at a university which is super cool. And I also have this prompt, right? Uh where if we open this up here, this is a prompt that I just kind of came up with like a rubber stamp travel notes field poster. And so what's cool is I can go ahead and just tell our agent reference my prompt on the canvas and then make postcards for every single city and image.

酷。所以你有 Medí、新加坡的图片，你有自由女神像，所以纽约，然后是 Toronto。

Cool. So you've got images for Medí, Singapore, you got Statue of Liberty, so New York and then Toronto.

嗯，完全正确。注意智能体已经拥有画布上的所有上下文，对吧？它自动知道文件系统中真正有什么，这个画板上有什么，然后它可以继续做出更新。所以这里很酷的是我们看到它一次性生成了所有四张明信片。我们可以继续在这里看到更大的版本。我的提示基本上是告诉它制作它拥有的图像的类似印章。现在因为我们在画布上，我可以直接抓取我对新加坡活动的描述。就在这里，我有一些我们聚会时的随机笔记。那是 5 月 17 日。我可以继续选择这两个。

Uh exactly right. And notice how like the agent has all of the context that is on the the canvas already, right? It automatically knows what is really in the in the file system, what's on this artboard here, and it can go ahead and then make make its updates. So, what's cool here is we see it generated all four postcards at once. We can go ahead and just see a bigger version of this here. My prompt was basically telling it to make kind of like a stamp of the the image that that it had. And now because we're on a canvas, I can go ahead and just grab kind of my description of our Singapore event. Right here, I have kind of just some random notes from when our meetup was. It was on May 17th. And I can go ahead and select these two.

那么，现在设计一张明信片，引用那段感谢用户出席的描述。做完之后，我们当然可以只针对新加坡这一张单独迭代，然后把所有这些改动一次性应用到所有城市，对吧？不用重做。

Say, now make a design of a postcard that references the description thanking users for attending. And when this is done, of course, we can iterate on just the Singapore one specifically, and then apply all of those changes to all the cities at once, right? Without having to redo it.

那你们团队里实际在用这个、在做这些明信片的都是些什么人？因为看起来这不一定非得是设计师来做，对吧？

And who are the people within your team that are actually using this and creating these postcards? Because it seems like it doesn't necessarily need to be designers, right?

是的。从运营团队到销售团队，大家都在用 Magic Patterns。举个例子，我们负责市场推广的同事就在 Magic Patterns 里做这些明信片，发给用户。过去，这个人不会用 Figma，这类工作只能外包出去。所以我觉得我们工具真正特别的地方，就在于我们在多大程度上把设计民主化了。

Yes. So, we have everyone from our ops team to our sales team using Magic Patterns. So, as an example, our go-to-market person is creating these postcards in Magic Patterns to send out to users. And historically, this was someone that didn't know how to use Figma, would have to outsource this type of work. And so, that's what's really, I think, special about our tool is how much we have been kind of democratizing design.

嗯。你们也能导出到 Figma，所以跟其他工具配合得很好。

Mhm. You can export to Figma as well. So, you play nicely with the other tools.

我们工具有一点非常不同，就是我们不绑定模型，某种程度上也不绑定功能，对吧？我们鼓励大家想导出到 Figma 就导出，拿到高保真的精确度；或者导出到他们自己选的编程智能体。对吧？我们的一些竞争对手，比如 Claude Design，它只用 Anthropic 的模型，只能导出到 Claude Code，没有和 Figma 的集成。而像我们这样的工具，你能想到的东西我们都有集成。

One thing that's very different about our tool is that we're model agnostic and in a way feature agnostic, right? Where we encourage folks to export to Figma if they want to and get high fidelity precision, or export to the coding agent of their choice. Right? Some of our other competitors, like Claude Design as an example, it's only the Anthropic models. You're only exporting to Claude Code. There's no integration with Figma. Versus a tool like ours, you know, we have integrations with anything you can think of.

那么提示词在这里显然非常重要。对于人们该如何改进提示词、从中获得更好的结果，你有什么建议？

So prompting is obviously very important here. What's your advice for how people should improve their prompts and get better results from them?

我觉得关键在于用好工具提供的功能。我观察到一件很有意思的事：越来越多 AI 赋能团队出现在尤其是大公司里。他们在做什么？他们在用 skills、agents MD 这类东西，对吧？把与你们公司相关的独特上下文带进来。当然，我们在 Magic Patterns 里有个 skills 功能，你可以直接添加你的 skills，或者像我们刚才说的，添加你的设计系统、把你的组件带进来。我一直最先推荐的就是：花 10 分钟把你现有的上下文带进来，长期来看能帮你省下好几个小时。

Yeah, I think it's leveraging the features that tools offer. The thing that's really interesting that I've seen is there's more and more AI enablement teams popping up at especially large companies. And what are they doing? They're leveraging things like skills, agents MD, right? And bringing in your unique context that's relevant to your company. So, of course, we have, you know, a skills feature in Magic Patterns where you can go ahead and add your skills, or as we were talking about, add your design system and bring in your components. And that's what I always recommend first is like spend the 10 minutes to bring in your existing context. It'll save you hours in the long run.

嗯。你见过用 Magic Patterns 做出来的最酷的东西之一是什么？

Mhm. What's one of the coolest things that you've seen created with Magic Patterns?

最有趣的之一是这个《过山车大亨》主题公园。它像个巧克力公园，这很疯狂，因为我们刚开始做的时候，你提示一个表单，它返回给你一个下拉菜单。模型当时太差了。而现在突然之间，我们看到有人真的在做完整的电子游戏体验。再说一次，这不是很常见的用例，但它某种程度上展示了当输入和输出都是代码时，什么是可能的。

Yeah. One of the most fun is this RollerCoaster Tycoon theme park. It's like a chocolate park, which is crazy because when we first started this, you know, you would prompt like a form and it would give you back like a drop-down. Like the models were so bad. And now suddenly, you know, we're seeing folks literally bring in like building entire video game experiences. Again, this is not a very common use case, but it's kind of sharing what's possible when the input and output is code.

那这个是为了什么做的？

And what was this created for?

这个真的只是做好玩的。就是实验一下在浏览器里什么是可能的，并且真正想清楚组件如何能帮你在这样的工具里做设计。对吧？其实你想想《过山车大亨》里的巧克力工厂主题公园，轨道是一个组件，巧克力棒旋转项目是一个组件，游客走的路也是组件。所以当你给 AI 这些护栏，它怎么能在一次或两次尝试里就输出一个主题公园，把那些上下文带进来。

This is really just created for fun. You know, experimenting with what is possible in the browser and actually thinking through how components can help you design in a tool like this. Right? So actually when you think about a chocolate factory theme park in RollerCoaster Tycoon, the track is a component, the chocolate bar twister ride is a component, the path that guests walk on are components. And so when you give the AI those guard rails, how can it output like a theme park in one shot or two shots bringing in that context.

哦，非常酷。你甚至能直接进去，看到所有小人走来走去。

Oh, very cool. And you can even get right in there, see all the little people walking around.

是啊。而且这很惊人。我们想，这真的就只是 WebGL 在浏览器里渲染，对吧？而且我们能看到，我们做这个的方式是用了我们称之为 3D 主题公园的设计系统，对吧？所以我可以直接更新它，把最新的组件带进来，而更新它真的就简单到提示一句“不要树，只要棒棒糖，再多几条巧克力河”，对吧？

Yeah. And again, it's amazing. We're like, this is literally just, you know, WebGL rendering in the browser, right? And we can see that we again, the way that we did this is we use a design system that we called the 3D theme park, right? So, I can go ahead and update that to bring in my latest components, and updating it is really as simple as prompting something like no trees, just lollipops and more chocolate rivers, right?

那这让你对 Magic Patterns 可能做到什么有了什么认识？看起来这远远超出了做一张明信片或网站设计之类的。

What does this tell you now about what might be possible with Magic Patterns? It seems like this is far beyond just making a postcard or website design or something.

我觉得这让我看到，设计历来都是 2D 的，对吧？如果你四年前在软件团队工作过，设计师、工程师和 PM 来回沟通，真的很难。确切的交互应该是什么样？然后你看到这样的东西，人们一次就做出 3D 主题公园，我觉得这是未来的一种预演——人们真的能设计出高保真的完整交互，而且用的是自己的组件。

Yeah, I think it showed me that design has historically been 2D, right? And it's been really hard if you worked on a software team four years ago going back and forth with the designer and the engineer and the PM. What should the exact interaction be? Then you see something like this where people are one-shotting 3D theme parks and I think it's a taste of the future where people can really design full-on interactions that are high fidelity, you know, and using their components.

是啊，未来肯定会很疯狂。

Yeah, it's going to be a wild future for sure.

绝对的。

Definitely.

YC 下一期正在接受申请。你心里有个创业点子吗？到 ycombinator.com/apply 申请。永远不嫌早，填完申请表还能让你的想法更上一层楼。好，回到视频。

YC's next batch is now taking applications. Got a startup in you? Apply at ycombinator.com/apply. It's never too early and filling out the app will level up your idea. Okay, back to the video.

你提到你见过成千上万个 vibecoded 设计。你大概是这方面的世界级专家了。我们要不要点评几个网站？

You talked about how you've seen thousands of vibecoded designs. You're probably a world expert on this. Should we review some websites?

来点评几个网站吧。这会很有意思。

Let's review some websites. This will be a lot of fun.

好，太好了。行，第一个看起来是 Ego。“智能体是机器，我们让它们成为人。”Ego 是一家应用 AI 研究实验室，打造与人类无法区分的个人智能体。

Okay, great. All right. First, looks like we got Ego. Agents are machines. We make them people. Ego is an applied AI research lab building personal agents indistinguishable from humans.

好。

Okay.

行，我们怎么看？

All right. What do we think?

首先，我是说，它挺酷的。但我觉得人们对落地页普遍忽略的一点是：真正要追踪的指标是它能不能转化。我显然不知道这个页面转化不转化，但我的感觉是……说不好。它不够易用。我不知道 CTA 在哪。CTA 是“Ronin”吗？

So, first off, I mean, it's cool. Here's the thing that I think people miss about landing pages in general. The real metric to track is does it convert? And I obviously don't know if this is converting or not, but my sense is like I don't know. It's not accessible. I don't know where the CTA is. Is the CTA Ronin?

是啊。你觉得他们想让我们在这里做什么？

Yeah. What do you think they want us to do here?

我的第一反应是，我应该继续往下滚。对，对吧。关于我们自己的落地页，我们学到一件有意思的事：所有做 vibecoded 工具的人都有那个输入框，或者提示你开始。有一阵子我们把它去掉了，想更有创意一点，结果转化率直接崩了。

I mean, my initial reaction is like I should just keep scrolling. Yeah. Right. One interesting thing that we've learned about our own landing page is, you know, everyone that has a vibe coded tool has that input or to prompt to get started. And for a little while, we removed it to try and be more creative, and our conversion rate totally tanked.

我们明白了人们为什么这么做，对吧？所以我总是鼓励大家想一想：你在这里最终想达成什么？

We learned why people do that, right? And so I always encourage folks to think about like what are you ultimately trying to do here?

好。然后里面好像有个应用。嗯。我大概滚到页面一半了，还是不清楚这是什么、是给谁用的。我猜有个等候名单，所以可能还没上线。

Okay. So then there's like an app in there. Yeah. I guess I'm halfway down the page and I'm still unclear what is this and who is it for. I guess there's a wait list, so maybe it's not live yet.

是啊，看看。

Yeah, let's see.

现在他们开始讲更多描述了。它是一个有性格、有记忆、有自己主见的语音智能体。

And now they're getting into more of the description. It's a voice agent with a personality, a memory, and a mind of its own.

这感觉像是本该放在最顶部的东西，对吧？网站应该从这里开始，因为这就是行动号召，也就是加入等候名单。但我们得往下滚很久才能到这里。

That feels like the kind of thing that should have been all the way at the top, right? Like the site should start here with this, because this is the call to action, which is join the waitlist. But we had to scroll down pretty far in order to even get to this point.

完全同意。我在这儿有点想笑，因为这个主要的“加入”行动号召——我得先做一个交互才能到那儿。这几乎又是一个可能是 vibe coding 出来的例子。AI 智能体就喜欢加动画之类的东西，对吧？过度动画。所以，为什么不干脆一开始就用这个呢？

Totally. And I'm kind of laughing here, because this main CTA to join — I had to do an interaction there. That's almost another example of something that was potentially vibe coded. AI agents, they love adding animations and things like that, right? Overly animating. And so, you know, why not just start it with that, right?

是啊，这其实挺有意思的。我们在我公司 Creative Market 做过一些测试，当输入表单直接可见、在页面上展开时，转化率比要求用户先点进去再填邮箱、或者弹窗、或者跳到表单之类的做法要高得多。所以我建议尽可能让文本框一开始就打开，人们可以直接在里面输入。这实际上会显著影响用户填写信息的转化率，挺令人震惊的。

Yeah. That's actually interesting. We ran some tests at my company, Creative Market, and when you had the input form visible and expanded directly on the page, conversion rate was much higher than requiring somebody to click through to then put in an email address, or a pop-up window, or get to the form or something like that. So I would recommend whenever possible, yeah, just start with the text box open and people can just type right in it. It's pretty shocking how that actually significantly impacts conversion rate of people entering information there.

是啊，这就是我鼓励的——想想人。我觉得 AI 智能体又一次被奖励去做有趣的事情，比如动效和过度动画，对吧？但人不会在你的网站上花很多时间，他们很赶。是啊，我们看到很多——到处都是闪烁的点，我不知道是不是在放音乐，但看起来像是某种音乐推子之类的。所以，挺难看出到底在发生什么。我喜欢整体的氛围，这种暗黑模式加红色，感觉很像 80 年代电子游戏，我觉得挺有意思。但有些东西也很难读。比如右边好像有个输入框之类的，我差点错过，因为我看不清它是否存在。

Yeah. And that's what I encourage — think about the human. I think AI agents, they're again rewarded for doing fun things like motion and overly animating, right? But the human is not going to spend a lot of time on your site. They're in a rush. Yeah, we see a lot of — there's blinking dots everywhere, and I don't know if music is playing, but it looks like there's some type of music faders or something going there. And so yeah, it's kind of hard to tell what's going on. I like the overall vibe. It's got this kind of dark mode red. It feels very like 80s video game kind of, which I think is interesting. But it's also hard to read some of the things. Like it actually looks like maybe there's an input box or something over on the right-hand side, and I almost missed it because it's not clear to me that it exists.

是啊，这是另一种我常看到的 vibe coding 痕迹。你能看到我的鼠标在这里让我和它交互，但我实际上什么都打不了，对吧？然后我就想，怎么回事？

Yeah, this is another kind of vibe coded smell that I commonly see. You can see my mouse here is letting me interact with this, but I can't actually type anything, right? And so, you know, and then I'm like, well, what's going on?

是啊，是啊，是啊，我见过一种模式，有时候页面上嵌入了真实的 UI 元素，它们是真的、可交互的。能做到这一点很酷。我觉得智能体现在让这件事简单多了，以前要难得多。所以它可以感觉很有交互性，像你可以在页面上直接试用产品，这超级酷。但反过来，当它看起来像那样、却变成误导，你以为能和某个东西交互，但实际上不能。

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, there's a pattern that I've seen where sometimes you have actual UI elements embedded in the page, but they're actually real and interactive. And that's cool to be able to do that. That's something that I think agents make a lot simpler now that was much harder to do before. And so it can feel very interactive and like you can actually try out the product live on the page, and that's super cool. But yeah, the flip side is when it looks like something like that and it becomes misleading and you think that you can interact with something but you're actually not able to.

是啊，是啊。我觉得重要的是谈谈为什么这很重要？网站上有个 vibe coding 痕迹为什么重要，对吧？我觉得重要是因为你能注意到我们被这个输入框分散了多少注意力，试着打字，我们被分散了，远离了核心的东西，也就是行动号召本该指向的东西。我猜在这个例子里，就是加入等候名单。

Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's important to talk about like why does this matter? Why does it matter if there's a vibe coded smell on the website, right? And I think it matters because you can notice how distracted we are by this input, trying to type, and we're distracted from the core thing, which is whatever the CTA is supposed to be. I guess in this case, right, it's join the waitlist.

是啊，挺酷的。往下滚，你能看到人物的图片。它们和那个氛围很搭，那种 80 年代电子游戏复古风，我觉得挺酷。你知道，顶部有个眼球，非常挑衅。它让我有点毛骨悚然，有个眼球直勾勾看着我，但挺有意思，如果你要的就是那种氛围，它会变得令人难忘。但是啊，直到滚到页面一半我才明白这是什么。所以我觉得应该多讲一点它是什么、你希望人们采取什么行动。就连右上角那个行动号召按钮，上面只写着 Ronin，对吧？

Yeah, it's cool. If you scroll down, you see the pictures of the people. They match that vibe, that kind of 80s video game throwback vibe, which I think is cool. You know, they had that eyeball up at the top, which is very provocative. It creeps me out a little bit. There's like an eyeball looking directly at me, but it's interesting and it becomes memorable if that's the vibe that you're going for. But yeah, it just wasn't obvious to me what this is until we got halfway down the page. And so I think just a little more about what it is and what's the action that you want people to take. Even that call to action in the top right, that button, it just says Ronin, right?

我不知道 Ronin 是什么。公司叫 Ego。这里好像写着 Ronin 九月发布。Ronin 是产品吗？是模型吗？我不清楚这是什么。所以最终我就是一头雾水。

I don't know what Ronin is. The company's called Ego. I guess it says here Ronin launching September. Is Ronin a product? Is it a model? It's not clear to me what this is. And so I think ultimately I'm just left very confused.

顺便说，这是另一种 vibe coding 痕迹。这里写着“向右滚动”。我自然会滚动。我个人不觉得——我不知道有多少情况人会需要在那里写“滚动”，因为你自然会那么做，而我常看到智能体总是试图推着用户去做某事。

This is another vibe coded smell, by the way. It says scroll right here. I'm naturally going to scroll. Like I don't think personally — I don't know many instances where a human would feel the need to put scroll there, because naturally you're going to do that, versus I commonly see agents trying to always nudge the user to do something.

我们要不要看看另一个？

Should we take a look at another one?

好啊。好，我们来看 Sentient OS。“你的 Mac，有意识。一个设备端 LLM 理解你的整个生活，然后主动提出通过计算机使用帮你完成工作。”好，这挺有意思。然后这里应该有一张打开的笔记本电脑的图片。

Yeah. Okay. We got Sentient OS. Your Mac, sentient. An on-device LLM understands your entire life, then proactively offers to get your work done through computer use. Okay, that's interesting. And then I guess we have an image here of a laptop that's open.

哇。好。你一滚动它就合上。

Whoa. Okay. And it closes when you scroll.

等等。往回，往回，往回一点。

Hold on. Go, go, go back for a sec.

哦。

Oh.

好。所以有一堆东西进入中间。然后你往下滚一点，它说“当你睡觉时，你的 Mac 理解你的整个生活。”好。我觉得——注意这里。我很难完美匹配滚动。我从没见过一家十角兽公司做任何形式的滚动劫持。

So, all right. So there's a bunch of stuff going into the middle. And then when you scroll down a little, it says, "While you sleep, your Mac understands your entire life." Okay. And I think — notice something here. I'm really struggling to perfectly match the scroll. One thing I never see a decacorn company ever do is any kind of scroll jacking.

是的。

Yes.

为什么他们不做任何滚动追踪？因为那不转化，而且令人沮丧。我常看到 AI 智能体做的另一件事，对吧？我是说，注意——好，如果我错过了，对吧？再说一次，去看看那些有数百万、数千万页面浏览量的财富 500 强公司网站。他们不做滚动劫持。

Why don't they do any kind of scroll tracking? Well, because it does not convert and it's frustrating. Another thing that I see AI agents doing a lot, right? I mean, just notice — okay, if I missed it, right? Again, go to the top Fortune 500 company sites that have millions and millions of page views. They are not scroll-jacking.

是啊，令人沮丧的是，你习惯了滚动时在网站上移动的精确度。当你遇到一个网站，精确度不同，你停止触摸鼠标或触控板后它还在滚，把事情搞乱，感觉很不自然。所以拜托大家，请停止滚动劫持。很简单，保持正常滚动就好，因为这里有一些很酷的东西，对吧？比如，我们一开始是笔记本电脑屏幕打开，一堆东西进入其中，盖子合上，我觉得它想告诉你所有这些事都在你睡觉时发生。盖子合着，然后你醒来看到完成的工作，于是它醒来，这是它做完的所有事情，然后带你过一遍。所以视觉和体验——我喜欢这个的一点是，它实际上在强化它想告诉你的概念。

Yeah. What's frustrating about it is you're used to the precision of how you move through a site when you're scrolling. And when you hit a site and it's different precision, you know, it keeps scrolling after you stop touching the mouse or the trackpad, it messes things up and it feels unnatural. And so please everybody, please stop scroll-jacking. It's very simple. Just keep the normal scroll, because there's some cool stuff that's happening here, right? Like, okay, we started out with the laptop screen open. A bunch of things are going into it. The lid closes, and I think it's trying to tell you like all this stuff happens while you sleep. The lid is closed, and then you wake up to your finished work, and so it wakes up and here's all the things that it's done, and then it takes you through that. So the visual and the experience — what I like about this one is it's actually reinforcing the concepts that it's trying to tell you about.

当它讲到睡眠时，盖子合上，电脑进入睡眠状态。然后它就像，哦，它醒来了，在你睡觉时完成所有工作。所以当你醒来，砰，笔记本电脑又出现了。所有工作都完成了，它展示给我们看。我认为最好的动画版本不是为动画而动画，而是真正强化你想要表达的观点，并以静态方式无法做到的方式传达信息。

When it talks about going when you sleep, the lid closes, the computer is asleep. Then it's like, oh, it wakes up, it does all the work while you sleep. So when you wake up and then boom, the laptop comes back out. We have all the work is done and it's showing it to us. That's I think the best version of an animation is not animation for animation's sake, but animation that actually reinforces the point that you're trying to make and communicate something in a way that just being static would not have been able to do.

完全同意。我的意思是，这确实帮助我理解这个产品是做什么的。但我也总是认为，当你试图过于创意时，那在产品页面或视频上很好，但不是在你的着陆页上。你的着陆页，你最想让我做的一件事就是点击这个按钮，下载 Mac OS 版，对吧？另外，就那个按钮说一句。这种发光效果，又有点 vibe coding 的味道了。嘿，它确实吸引了我的注意。但我注意到的一件事是，AI 智能体喜欢过度使用这种渐变和巨大的阴影。再说一次，看，它吸引了我的注意，但如果你不想这样，这是需要注意的一点。

Totally. I mean, it's definitely helping me understand what this product does. But I would also always think when you're trying to be too creative or something, that's great on like a product page or a video, not your landing page. Your landing page, the number one thing you want to try to get me to do is click this button, download for Mac OS, right? Also just speaking about that button for a second. This kind of glow, another bit of a vibe coding smell again. And hey, it's definitely getting my attention. But one thing that I've noticed is AI agents, they love to overdo it on this kind of gradient on this massive drop shadow. And again, look, it got my attention, but it's just one thing to be wary of if that's something that you're trying to not do.

是的。那么页面往下还有什么？

Yeah. And then what do we have further down the page here?

食谱。

Recipes.

我觉得有趣的是，这又是那个主要的 CTA，对吧？我滚动整个页面，我真的想让我点击这个按钮，或者甚至进行这个 homebrew 安装，但它太小了。就像我在 100% 缩放，我几乎看不到它，

I think what's interesting here is again, this is that main CTA, right? I scroll through the whole thing and I really want me to click this button or perhaps even do this homebrew installation, but it's so small. Like I'm at like 100% and I can barely see it,

对吧？呃，而且这有这种悬停效果。我猜这带我到 GitHub。我几乎读不了那个。

Right? Uh and like this has this kind of hover effect. I guess this brings me to the GitHub. I can barely read that.

是的，那些真的很难读，

Yeah, it's really tough to read those,

对吧？就像免费。定价页面上免费字样巨大是有原因的。

Right? Like free. There's a reason that free is giant on pricing pages.

是的。免费下载。

Yeah. Download for free.

是的。没错。对吧。我发誓，也许是因为角度，但真的不重要。我现在看不到“免费”这个词。如果你有重要的信息要传达，用户看的角度不应该有影响。它应该明显到令人痛苦。

Yeah. Exactly. Right. And I swear it's perhaps it's because of the angle, but it doesn't really matter. I cannot see the word free right now. If you have something important to communicate, it shouldn't matter the angle that the user is looking at it. It should be painfully obvious.

是的。没错。

Yes. Exactly.

好吧。我的意思是，我猜也许，你知道，对于这样一个在本地机器上运行的产品，另一个反馈是隐私和信任非常重要。他们如何处理数据？我猜他们这里有一个 FAQ 试图回答一些，但这实际上是 AI 应用和 LLM 新世界中的一个有趣问题：它们需要大量数据和上下文才能有价值，尤其是像这样将在本地机器上运行并可能访问你电脑上所有内容的产品。因此，对于所有这类产品，需要建立信任、隐私和安全的新标准。我的看法是，我认为那些真正致力于此并超越期望让用户感到非常舒适的产品——关于我们将访问什么数据、我们将如何使用它、我们的保留政策是什么、这是否安全，所有这些事情，并非常主动——我认为这些产品将更成功地让用户下载、尝试并传播给朋友。

All right. I mean, I guess maybe, you know, one of the other pieces of feedback for a product like this that runs locally on your machine. Privacy and trust is something that's very important. What do they do with the data? I guess they have an FAQ here to try to answer some of this, but this is actually an interesting problem in new world of AI apps and LLMs is they need so much data and so much context to be really valuable and especially a product like this that's going to run locally on your machine and have access presumably to everything that's on your computer. And so there's a new bar that needs to be established for trust and privacy and security for all of these types of products. My take is that I actually think the products that really lean into that and go above and beyond to make users feel super comfortable around what is the data we're going to have access to, how are we going to use it, what are our retention policies, is this secure or not, all these things and being very proactive about that are the ones that I think are going to have more success of getting users to download and try it and spread the word and tell their friends.

完全同意。作为一个用开源短信分析器申请 YC 的人，那个分析器在电脑上本地读取你的 iMessage 消息，我完全同意。

Totally agree. As someone who applied to YC with a text message analyzer that was open source and read your iMessage messages all locally on the computer, I completely agree.

那么，当你开发那个产品时，你考虑了哪些事情，你觉得必须做才能让人们信任你的产品并允许它访问他们所有的短信？

And so what were the things when you were working on that product that you thought about that you felt like you had to do in order to get people to trust your product and give it access to all of their text messages?

着陆页上的主视觉是开源，完全在设备上。

Hero on the landing page was open source completely on device.

嗯。

Mh.

对。传达互联网不会以任何方式接触它。这就是我们了解到的，人们真正关心的事情，对吧？他们在这里也做到了，你知道，在设备上的 LLM。是的。

Right. Communicating that the internet doesn't touch it in any single way. And that's what we learned that people really really cared about, right? And they do it here, you know, in on-device LLM. Yeah.

但有趣的是，“和”这个词真的有必要吗？我觉得有趣的是他们把这些词加粗。实际上，AI 写作的另一个标志——你可以在维基百科上查——是随机单词被加粗，对吧？但只是传达最重要的东西，那就是它在设备上。是的。

But it's funny like is the word and really even necessary. Like it's interesting to me they're like bolding these words. Another sign of AI writing actually is you can look this up on Wikipedia is when random words are bolded, right? Like but just communicating those kind of that most important thing which is that it's on device. Yeah.

另一件让我发笑的事情是这个字体。让我们看看字体是什么。Space Grotesk 总是那个字体，呃，哦，Instrument Serif 是另一个。Instrument Serif。Claude Code 喜欢 Instrument Serif，这很有趣。这让我想起破折号，对吧？就像你仍然可以在写作中使用破折号，但不幸的是人们会看着它说：“哦，他用了 AI，对吧？”Instrument Serif，Space Grotesk。

Another thing that kind of makes me laugh is this font. Let's see what the font is. Space grotesque is always the font that is uh Oh, instrument serif is another one. Instrument serif. Claude code loves instrument serif which is funny. And this kind of reminds me of the mdash, right? It's like you can still use the mdash in your writing, but unfortunately people are going to look at it and go, "Oh, he used AI, right?" instrument serif space grotesque.

有趣的是，这些趋势有时在当时很难发现。我觉得我们正在经历，你知道我们在这里能发现它，但就像你看到一个 80 年代设计的厨房之类的，你会说，天哪，这看起来像过时的厨房，但在 80 年代它可能看起来像现代厨房。这感觉就像其中一些东西。它现在感觉是当下的，但 5 年 10 年后我们回顾这个，我们会说：“哦对，那是 2020 年代中期的标志性网站设计，那时会感觉过时。”所以我不知道，我会鼓励人们抵制智能体在设计时输出的默认选项或默认字体，或者使用更独特的、能传达你想传达的东西，而不是仅仅使用其他人都在用的东西。我认为这就是创造更永恒设计的方法。

It's interesting how these things are trends that sometimes are hard to spot in the moment. I feel like we're on it and you know we can spot it in the moment here, but it's like you see a kitchen that was designed in the '80s or something like that and you're like, man, this looks like an outdated kitchen, but in the '80s it probably looks like a modern kitchen. And that's what some of this feels like. It's something that feels like of the moment now, but 5 10 years we're going to look back at this, we're going to be like, "Oh yeah, that's a hallmark mid 2020s site design that will feel outdated at that point." And so I don't know, I would encourage people just resist the urge to do the default that the agents are spitting out when they're designing or the default fonts or use something that is more unique to you and communicates what you want to communicate rather than just using the thing that everybody else is using. And that's the way to create more timeless design, I think.

是的。并且尽早建立品牌手册。我后悔的一件事是我们自己的公司没有尽早建立品牌手册。决定品牌是什么，你的字体是什么，呃，真正是你的设计系统。呃，公司应该尽早这样做，当然。

Yeah. And establishing that brand book earlier on. That's one thing that I regret that we didn't do earlier for our own company was establishing a brand book. Deciding on what is the brand, what is your font, uh your really your design system. Uh companies should do that earlier for sure.

好的。那么，谢谢你，Sentient OS。

All right. Well, thank you, Sentient OS.

我们再看一个。

Let's do another one.

好的。Sarah Novice，机构智能和决策基础设施。是的，我不太明白那是什么意思，但呃 Saranovas 是你的 AI 运营伙伴。它读取你公司产生的每一条记录，发现没人跟踪的运营低效，并在问题还小的时候警告你。好的。嗯，我不知道。我觉得这里的文案可以改进。它非常笼统。非常模糊。我有点像是，这是我需要的东西吗？我不太确定。

All right. Sarah Novice, institutional intelligence and decision infrastructure. Yeah, I don't really know what that means, but uh Saranovas is your AI operating partner. It reads every record your company produces, finds the operational inefficiencies nobody's tracking, and warns you while problems are still small. Okay. Um I don't know. This is I think the copy could be improved here. It's very generalized. It's very vague. I'm kind of like, is this something I need? I'm not really sure.

它做了我公司想要的一切，并找出低效之处。它是一个决策基础设施。我不知道那是什么意思。所以，我认为有帮助的是更具体地说明谁应该使用这个以及为什么，因为现在我觉得太不清楚了。

It does everything that my company wants and finds inefficiencies. It's a decision infrastructure. I don't know what that means. So, I think something that would be helpful is just getting to more specifics or more specific language around who should use this and why because right now I think it's too unclear.

我觉得有趣的是，有太多填充内容，对吧？就像有很多空白区域，这就是他们所说的首屏，在我滚动之前。这是如此重要的部分，着陆页的英雄区，但我的眼睛立刻

It's interesting to me like there's so much padding, right? Like there's just a lot of white space where this is what they call above the fold right before I scroll. It's such an important section, the hero section of the landing page and yet immediately my eyes

我现在就像在看空白区域，

I'm like looking at whites space right now,

对吧？嗯，不幸的是，这也像是一种经典的氛围编码气味。

right? Um, unfortunately, this is also kind of like a classic vibe coding smell.

呃，这个小的全大写。

Uh, this small all caps.

没错。是的。嗯，再说一次，就像，好吧，小的全大写有什么本质错误吗？不一定，但当我读它时，每个声明都引用，多年历史，从第一天就 live，无需安装，无需面试，但我仍然甚至不知道产品是做什么的。

Exactly. Yeah. Um, and again, it's like, okay, is there anything inherently wrong with small all caps? Not necessarily, but when I read it, every claim cited, years of history, live from day one, nothing installed, no interviews, but I still don't even know what the product does.

是的。是的。没错。

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

我甚至不知道它会是需要安装的东西。那不是我一开始的假设。所以

I didn't even know it was going to be something that was installed. That was not my assumption to begin with. So

是的。是的。是的。没错。就像无需安装，我是在处理硬件吗？嗯，对运营的监督。它找出低效之处。有收据的远见。是的。我只需要具体的例子。就像我们滚动时，他们给出具体例子了吗？从你桌上的问题开始。企业中间市场。私募股权。是的。这就像是他们追求谁

yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Like nothing installed where like am I dealing with hardware? Um oversight over the operations. It finds the inefficiencies. Foresight with receipts. Yeah. I just need specific examples. Like as we're scrolling, do they give specific examples? Start with the problem on your desk. Enterprise middle market. Private equity. Yeah. It's this is like who they go after

而这没有帮助，因为这是关于他们的。这不是关于用户的，对吧？用户不关心他们追求谁。用户关心的是他们有一个想要解决的问题，Saranovas 能帮我解决这个问题吗，

and which is this is not helpful because it's about them. It's not about the user, right? The user doesn't care who they go after. The user cares about they have a problem that they want solved and can Saranovas help solve this problem for me,

对吧？几乎就像现在我必须思考我是企业中间市场还是谁？

right? It's almost like right now I have to think through am I enterprise middle like who am I?

是的，

Yeah,

让我们假装我是二级市场或延续工具。我必须看这个，但我必须点击来决定我是谁。你让我思考，你知道，

let's pretend I'm secondaries or I'm continuation vehicles. I have to look at this, but I had to like click to decide who I am. You're making me think, you know,

太多工作了。

too much work.

再说一次，说到你的点，我真正想看到的是解决方案。

And again, to your point, what I really want to see are the solutions.

是的。你知道，这是我在氛围编码网站上看到的一个趋势，尤其是在 YC 申请中我们经常看到。我们看到的一件事是，它几乎就像为公司制作了一个幻灯片，很多时候几乎是在向投资者推销公司，或者模型认为这是初创公司或初创公司网站的预期受众，有时投资者会看这个东西，但这不是你应该交谈的对象，也不是你应该瞄准的对象。你应该谈论你的产品，谁应该使用它，为什么它有价值，它为他们解决了什么问题。社会证明，你知道，其他使用这个的人，就像那些用户一样，以及它对他们有多大帮助。这些是我认为真实用户想要找到的东西，而不是关于他们目标是谁的推销幻灯片，是的，这是四个保证，就像我甚至不知道。我仍然甚至无法弄清楚你做什么。呃，我注意到一件有趣的事，因为我们刚刚谈到了这个，顶部有一个链接说信任和安全。这不是你通常在网站的主导航中看到的。嗯，你知道，从我们刚刚讨论的关于公司应该更加强调这一点的话题来看，看到他们这样做并把它放在那里并有一个 FAQ 实际上很有趣。我们收集什么数据？数据在哪里？嗯，我不会惊讶地看到这成为一个更常见的模式，我们将在 AI 网站上看到，试图谈论产品并让人们委托他们大量敏感信息。

Yeah. You know, this is a trend that I see with vibecoded sites and especially we see this a lot in YC applications. One of the things that we see is it's almost like it makes a slide deck for the company that's kind of pitching the company almost to investors a lot of times or like the models think that is the intended audience for a startup or a startup website and sometimes it is like investors will look at the thing but that's not who you should be speaking to and who you should be targeting. You should be talking about your product who should use it why it's valuable what problem it solves for them. social proof of, you know, other people that use this that are like those users and how much it's helped them. These are the things that I think real users want to find rather than a pitch deck about who they target and yeah, here's the four guarantees and it's like I don't even know. I still can't even figure out what you do. Uh, one thing that's interesting I noticed because we just talked about this, there's a link at the top that says trust and security. And that's not something that you normally see in a main navigation of a site. Um and you know coming off the discussion we just had around maybe companies should put more emphasis on this. It's actually interesting to see them doing that and putting it up there and having an FAQ. What data do we collect? Where does the data live? Um, I would not be surprised to see this become a more common pattern that we're going to see across AI sites trying to talk about the product and get people to entrust them with lots of sensitive information.

完全同意。

Totally.

嗯，总的来说，我觉得风格非常干净。非常清新。非常现代。嗯，所以从视觉角度来看，我认为它看起来非常好。从文案和你知道的整体描述来看，你是否在传达产品做什么以及向你的用户传达。我仍然非常困惑它实际做什么，谁应该使用它以及为什么。所以我认为在这方面有很大的改进空间。

Well, overall, I feel like the style is very clean. It's very fresh. It's very modern. Um, so from a visual perspective, I think it looks very nice. from a copy and you know overall description and are you communicating what the product does and to your users. I'm still very confused on what it actually does and who should use it and why. And so I think there's a lot of room for improvement on that.

完全同意。我会鼓励所有创始人做我们早期做的事情，就是你应该去找你的用户，问他们你觉得这个网站怎么样？尽量不要让他们清楚这是你的网站，因为他们会对你太好，不会告诉你真相。嗯，但你知道，你需要用户告诉你它是否引起他们的共鸣。

Totally. And what I would encourage all kind of founders to do something that we did in the early days is you should go to your users and ask them what do you think of this website? Try not to make it clear that it's your website because they're going to be too nice to you and not tell you the truth. Um, but you know, you need users to tell you if it's resonating with them.

那是终极测试。

That's the ultimate test.

那绝对是终极测试。我们只是两个在摄像机后面的人。你知道，和你的用户谈谈。

That is absolutely the ultimate test. We're just two people that are here behind some cameras. You know, talk to your users.

好的。我们再来一个。Slashy，你的智能收件箱。嗯，首先，他们的标志让我有点困惑。它看起来像 sashy，这是它让我想到的。所以，我明白它很聪明，在 slashy 中有一个斜杠，但嗯，如果我只看到那个而没有像 slashy.com 这样的上下文，我想我会认为这是 s ashy。嗯，好吧。你的智能收件箱 slashy 用你的声音起草回复，安排会议，并处理后续跟进，这样你花更少的时间管理电子邮件。好的，酷。所以，它就像一个新产品。嗯，他们这里有一个相当大的演示。展示演示很酷，但有太多事情在发生。演示中有太多文字。我很难在心理上定位正在发生的事情以及它想让我从中得到什么。

All right. And let's do another one here. Slashy, your intelligent inbox. Um, so first of all, their logo kind of confused me a little bit. It looks like sashy is what it makes me think of. So, I get that it's clever and it's got a slash in the slashy, but um if I had just seen that without the context of like slashy.com, I think I would have thought this was s ashy. Um, okay. Your intelligent inbox slashy drafts replies in your voice, schedules meetings, and handles follow-ups so you spend less time managing email. Okay, cool. So, it's like a new email product. Um, and they've got a demo here that's pretty big. It's cool to show a demo, but there's so much going on. There's so much text in the demo. It's hard for me to mentally orient around what's happening and what it wants me to take away from this.

所以，我看到 Pi Piper 指标在周四之前。我看到右下角有一个智能体在不断翻转，但速度不够慢，我无法理解它实际在输入什么，发生了什么，以及产品在这里做什么。

So, I see Pi Piper metrics before Thursday. I see something happening in an agent in the bottom right that it keeps flipping over to, but it's not slow enough where I can get my head around what it's actually typing, what's happening, and what the product is doing here.

这很公平。我要说他们做得好的地方是我立刻知道它是什么。

That's that's fair. I will say what they're doing well is I know immediately what it is.

嗯。

Mhm.

我知道，好吧，这有点像 superhuman。这是一个 Gmail 替代品，对吧？我实际上有这个问题。我自己，我的电子邮件超载了。

I know that, okay, this is kind of like superhuman. This is a Gmail replacement, right? I actually have this problem. Myself, my email is overloaded.

嗯，但是是的，就像也许这更好的方式是只展示聊天收件箱，几乎像动画而不是屏幕录制视频。我会鼓励这位创始人找一家机构做一个真正酷的动画，可能会放在这里，实际上可能比这里的全屏视频效果更好。

Um, but yeah, it's like it maybe this would be better as just showing kind of the chat inbox almost like an animation versus a screen recorded video. I would encourage this founder to get an agency to do a really cool animation that might go here and might actually work better than kind of this full screen video right here.

是的。嗯，回复在几秒钟内起草。好的。嗯，我猜它正在浏览侧边的这些标签。这些的问题是如果你滚动，你会错过其他的。嗯，这些似乎只是按计时器。是的，你可以看到底部有一条线穿过。

Yep. Um, replies drafted in seconds. Okay. Um, and I guess it's going through these tabs here on the side. And the problem with these is if you scroll through it's you will miss the other ones. Um, and these are just seem to be on a timer. Yeah, you can see the line going across at the bottom there.

嗯，这很酷。但任何时候你用标签页，问题就在于你必须预料到人们不会看到其他标签页后面的任何内容。

Um, which is cool. But the problem with anytime you have tabs is you have to expect that people will not see anything that is behind the other tabs.

完全同意。你必须假设我只会看到。嗯，有趣的是什么？等等，让我们刷新一下，因为我觉得这总是值得关注的事情。假设我们花时间在智能收件箱上。

Totally. You have to assume that I am just going to see. Well, what's interesting? Wait, let's refresh this because I think this is always good thing to pay attention to. Let's pretend we spent time on intelligent inbox.

嗯。

Mhm.

计时器在走吗？是的。看起来不像。看起来可能实际上只是在我滚动时才开始，这很好。但有趣的是，有时我注意到在网站上，计时器可能在用户看到之前就开始走了。所以你甚至没有意识到这一点，但每个人实际上都在看到片段，即使你可能认为它是第四重要的东西。

Is the timer going? Yeah. Like it doesn't look like it. It looks like it's probably actually just starting right when I actually which I when I scroll, which is great. But what's interesting, sometimes I notice on sites that the timer might start going before the user is seeing it. And so you don't even realize this, but everyone is actually seeing snippets even though you might consider it the fourth most important thing.

是的，我觉得当我们第一次到这里时，语音草稿是被突出显示的东西。嗯，也许是因为我们只是来回滚动，所以我们在没有真正阅读的情况下启动了计时器。嗯，也许我在这里要提到的另一件事是我 again 无法分辨截图中发生了什么。我想如果我真的觉得“好吧，AI 草稿，发生了什么”，并且我试图真正定位自己并集中注意力，我可能会试着弄清楚。但大多数用户并不是第一次看某个东西就花那种深度和仔细程度去关注发生了什么。所以他们展示产品很酷。我想知道是否有一种更聚焦、更简化的方式来实际传达每个这些功能正在发生什么，而不是展示实际界面的所有粒度和细节水平。

Yeah, I think when we got down here the first time, voice drafts was the thing that was highlighted. Um, and maybe because we were just kind of scrolling back and forth and so we started the timer without actually reading them. Um, maybe the other thing that I'll mention here is I can't tell again what's happening in the screenshots. And I think if I was like really okay, AI drafts and what's happening and I tried to really orient myself and pay attention, I could try to figure it out. But most users are not actually looking at something for the first time and spending that level of depth and scrutiny on what's happening. And so it it's cool they're showing the product. I wonder if there's a more focused dumb down way to actually uh communicate what is happening with each of these rather than showing all the um granularity and level of detail of the actual interface.

完全同意。

Totally.

好的。所以我们这里有一些社会证明。“受最忙碌的人喜爱”。我们有一个 Redpoint 的投资者。我们有一个内容创作者，我我不认识。嗯，所以，好吧。所以有些人使用这个，而且 again，他们在顶部有一个安全链接。他们在这里有社会证明，这里是实际在使用这个的人，因为你 again，你是在要求他们把他们你的收件箱托付给你，而这是最敏感的领域之一，不能随便给任何人访问权限。所以这是一个有趣的挑战：你如何建立那种信任并让人们下载并开始使用它。

Okay. So, we got some social proof here. Loved by the busiest people. We've got an investor at Redpoint. We've got a content creator who I I don't know. Um so, all right. So, some people use this and and again, they've got a security uh link up at the top. They've got social proof here on here's people that are actually using this because you're again, you're asking them to entrust you with their your inbox and that is one of the most sensitive areas to give uh anybody access to. So, it's an interesting challenge for how can you build that trust and get people to download and start using it.

是的。社会证明非常重要，对吧？这就是为什么通常你会看到标志在首屏上方。不过我认为创始人应该始终考虑他们用谁作为社会证明。举个例子，我看到投资者和创始人，我想“好吧，这是给投资者和创始人的”，你知道这有点道理，因为他们是忙碌的人，有很多邮件，但立刻我就想，即使左边有两位投资者，我想“哦等等，这只是给风投的收件箱吗？”

Yeah. And social proof is so important, right? That's always why typically you see logos above the fold. I think founders should always consider though who they're using as social proof. Like just as an example, I see investors and founders and I think okay this is for investors and founders which you know kind of makes sense like they they are busy people which have lots of emails but immediately I just like even with both investors on this side on the lefthand side I think oh wait a second is this just an inbox for VCs.

是的，也许它确实是针对创始人和风投的，我不确定。嗯，还是面向普通消费者？他们说“给忙碌的人”。所以也许这像是专业消费者版的 Superhuman 之类的东西，并且以你的风格写作。好的，这很酷，因为你知道它展示了它正在处理并嗯进行编辑，实际上匹配风格。就像那个视图。

Yeah maybe it is that they're targeting founders and VCs I'm not sure. Um or is it for general consumers? They say for busy people. So maybe this is like a proumer superhuman kind of thing and writes in your style. Okay, this is cool cuz you know it's showing that it's going through and um and making edits uh that actually match the style. Like that view right there.

太棒了。

That's awesome.

这真的这就像我提到的动画。顺便说一下，你可以在 Magic Patterns 中设计这样的东西，但这真的真的很整洁，我完全理解它在这里做什么。并且从 iMessage 处理你的收件箱。again，我们有更多这些标签页。它从下面第三个开始。所以，嗯，那是“审查和批准”。嗯，但是的，和上面一样。

This is really This is like kind of the animation that I was talking about. Something that you could design in Magic Patterns by the way, but this is really really neat where I I totally get what it's doing here. and handle your inbox from iMessage. Again, we got more of these tabs. It started at the third one down there. So, uh that was review and approve. Um but yeah, same same as above.

不过那也很酷。这对我来说很有趣，这有点引起我的共鸣，对吧？就像，哦天哪，你知道，你有这么多收件箱，无论是短信、WhatsApp、你的 Gmail、你的 Slack，而它有点整合了这些，这真的引起共鸣，是的，如果用户欣赏这一点，那应该被推到顶部，那会很酷。

That's cool, too, though. It's it's interesting to me like this is kind of what's resonating with me, right? like, oh my, you know, there's so many problems with you have so many inboxes, whether it's text messages, WhatsApp, your Gmail, your Slack, and it's kind of consolidating that like this is really resonating and yeah, it would be cool if that was maybe that should be pushed to the top if users are appreciating that.

是的，我的意思是那是个问题。我有太多收件箱，所以那会引起我的共鸣，因为我既是创始人又是投资者，会对这个感兴趣。我认为很棒的另一点实际上是这个落地页有多长。我从 PostHog 的人那里学到了这一点。所以 PostHog 的人有一个巨大的页脚来传达他们是一家大公司，对吧？所以我总是鼓励人们思考，仅仅因为这是一个非常长的落地页，所传达的元信息是什么。我想“哦，这家公司已经存在一段时间了”。是的，它在页面上很好地间隔，嗯，突出它想要强调的要点，试图建立信任，而且它看起来非常漂亮、专业设计，嗯，这也有助于建立信任，这非常重要。嗯，总的来说，我认为这真的做得很好。太好了。谢谢你，Slashy。

Yeah, I mean that's a problem. I have too many inboxes and so that would have resonated with me to the extent that I am both a founder and a investor that would be interested in this. One more thing that I think is great is actually just how long this landing page is. I learned this from the PostHog guys actually. So the PostHog folks had a massive footer to communicate that they were, you know, a big company, right? And so I always encourage folks to think about like what is kind of the meta thing that's being communicated just by the sheer fact that it's a really long landing page. I think, oh, this company's been around a while. Yeah, it does a good job of spacing down the page, um, calling out the main points that it wants to hit on, trying to build trust, and it looks very nicely, professionally designed, um, which helps build that trust as well, which is really important. Um, so overall, I think this this is really well done. Great. Thank you, Slashy.

作为一个有前端工程背景的人，你是如何提高设计水平并提升设计品味的？

As someone who comes from a a front-end engineering background, how did you get better at design and improving your design taste?

所以我尝试做的一件事是看美丽的东西。举个例子，旧金山这里有一个马蒂斯展览。嗯，或者只是消费你审美上喜欢的东西。一本很棒的书是《设计心理学》。

So, one thing I I try to do is look at beautiful things. Like as an example, there's a Matis exhibit uh here in San Francisco. Um or just kind of consuming things that you enjoy aesthetically. A great book to read is like the design of everyday things.

而且 again，始终考虑人和用户。我认为硅谷有一个很大的误解，认为设计就是像素完美的边框半径，其实不是。它是思考用户体验，当然还有高保真的 UI，那是美丽的，对吧？

And again, always considering the human and the user. I think there's this big misconception in Silicon Valley that design is pixel perfect border radius and it's not. It's thinking through the user experience and of course having high fidelity UI that's that's beautiful, right? it.

是的。那你怎么做呢？在你日常构建 Magic Patterns 和领导公司的过程中，你做了哪些事情来试图把用户放在中心，并始终在脑海中保持用户的声音？

Yeah. And how do you do that? What are some things that you do maybe in your daytoday as you're building magic patterns and leading the company as well that you do to try to put the user front and center and and always keep that voice of the user in your head?

你知道，我们做的几件事是，我们公司的每个人都做客户支持。嗯

You know, like a couple things that we do is everyone in our company does customer support. M

所以每个人每天都在支持收件箱里与用户交谈，看到他们的挫败感，比如当他们找不到分享按钮时，因为我们有两个完全相同颜色的 CTA，两个主按钮，对吧？然后接下来你知道，因为工程师在那里，他们会继续修复它，因为他们亲身体验了用户的问题。还有就是有一个非常高的标准，对吧？如果某些东西看起来不对劲，感觉不对劲，我们鼓励所有团队去解决它。花时间在额外的 20% 上。不要只是有 vibecoded 的输出而不把它提升到下一个层次。

so every single person is in the support inbox talking to users every single day seeing their frustrations when they can't find the share button because we have two CTAs that are the exact same color, two primary buttons, right? And then next thing you know because the engineers there, they're going ahead and and fixing it because they experience the user problem firsthand. And also just having a very high bar, right? where if something looks off and it just feels off, we encourage all of our team to go ahead and tackle that. Spend time on the extra 20%. Don't just have the vibecoded output and not take it to the next level.

那你如何平衡这一点？因为显然这样做听起来很棒。权衡是现在发布东西需要更长时间。

And how do you balance that? Because obviously doing that sounds great. The trade-offs are now it's going to take longer to ship something.

你如何平衡快速交付的速度与真正超越期望、做出卓越而非仅仅及格的东西？

How do you balance the speed of shipping quickly with actually going above and beyond and making something that is actually excellent rather than the thing that was just okay?

是的。嗯，你必须——这全是关于权衡，对吧？如果你不这样做，你可能会有大量用户访问你的网站然后离开。他们不理解它。他们的工作流程被阻塞了，对吧？所以你必须相信这是值得的。对我们来说，我们非常相信这是值得的。这是重要的，需要仔细思考并花时间去做。而且我认为人们喜欢说如果设计得好，那一定花了很长时间才交付，他们太慢了。但实际上，并非如此。你仍然可以非常快，尤其是考虑到在写代码方面一切都加速了多少。

Yeah. Well, you have to—it's all about tradeoffs, right? And if you don't do that, you might have tons of users that are on your site and then they're leaving. They're not understanding it. Their workflow is blocked, right? And so you have to have faith that it is worth it. And for us, we have tremendous faith that it is worth it. That this is important to think through and to take your time doing something. And I think it's also like people love saying if it's well-designed, it must have taken so long to ship and they're so slow. Like in practice, not really. You can still be really fast, especially considering how much everything is sped up when it comes to writing code.

是的，这真的很有趣。那些权衡不再必须存在了。历史上它们必须存在。Magic Patterns 的下一步是什么？你的路线图上的下一步是什么？你认为设计从这里将走向何方？

Yeah, it's actually really interesting. Those trade-offs don't have to exist anymore. Historically they had to exist. What's next for Magic Patterns? What's next on the road map for you? And where do you think design is going from here?

是的，所以本周我们发布了 Magic OS，这又是我们画布的新版本。它就像是 Pinterest 和 Figma 的孩子。你可以与它聊天，用提示来制作设计，带入你的 PRD 和上下文。我认为设计的未来下一步是什么？嗯，有一件事是肯定的，它发展得非常非常快。任何认为自己确切知道的人可能只是编造，对吧？但我认为有一件事是肯定的，代码作为一种媒介将会持续存在，因为显然前沿实验室和每个人都在努力使编码智能体非常非常出色，而这是生产和为用户服务的终极媒介。

Yeah, so this week we released Magic OS, which again is our new version of our canvas. It's like Pinterest and Figma had a baby. And you can chat with it, prompt with it to make designs, bring in your PRDs and your context. I think what's next for the future of design? Well, one thing's for sure, it's moving very, very fast. And anyone who thinks that they know for sure probably is just making it up, right? But I think one thing that's certainly true is code as a medium is here to stay because clearly the frontier labs and everyone is working on making coding agents very, very good and that is the ultimate medium for production and for your users.

是的，这很有趣。代码就像你说的只是另一种媒介，有很多不同的媒介可以创建产品和用户体验产品，而这只是一个新的媒介，现在有了新工具能够构建以前不可能的东西，看到一切被提升到新的水平，新事物成为可能，几乎看起来永远不可能，这真的很令人兴奋，所以很高兴邀请你来，看到你们如何通过 Magic Patterns 实现这一点，非常感谢你的加入。

Yeah, it's interesting. Code is just another medium like you said and there's lots of different mediums by which products are created and users experience products and this is just a new one that has now new tools to be able to build things that weren't possible before and it's really exciting to see everything get taken to a new level and new things being possible that almost seemed like they never would be and so it's awesome to have you on and see how you guys are enabling that with Magic Patterns and really appreciate for joining.

是的，非常感谢。

Yeah, thanks so much.

好了，这就是本期 Design Review 的全部内容，我们下期再见。

Well, that does it for this episode of Design Review and we'll see you on the next one.