构建 AI 产品：雕刻而非建造

欢迎来到 Dive Club，我是 Rid，这里是设计师永不止步的学习之地。本周的嘉宾是 Alejandro，Runway 的联合创始人兼首席设计官，Runway 是当今世界领先的生成式 AI 公司之一。这次对话的重点是了解一个 AI 原生产品团队是如何运作的，因为 Alejandro 对于设计师应如何与工程师和研究人员协作，以及设计一款成功的 AI 产品需要什么，有着一些非常引人注目的想法。此外，听 Alejandro 分享生成式视频的未来走向，以及它可能如何影响故事讲述的未来，也很有趣。但在我们深入探讨之前，我们必须回到最初，因为 Runway 远远领先于它的时代。

Welcome to Dive Club. My name is Rid, and this is where designers never stop learning. This week's episode is with Alejandro, co-founder and chief design officer of Runway, one of the leading generative AI companies in the world today. A big focus of this conversation is seeing what it looks like to operate as an AI-native product team, because Alejandro has some really compelling ideas about how designers should collaborate with engineers and researchers, and what it takes to design a winning AI product. Also, it's just fun to hear Alejandro share about where generative video could be headed next and how that might impact the future of storytelling. But before we get into all of that, we have to go all the way back to the beginning, because Runway was way ahead of its time.

Runway 始于 2017、2018 年。我在纽约大学读研究生时遇到了我的联合创始人。我们都去了 Tisch 学院，参加了一个名为 ITP（交互式电信项目）的项目。该项目的全部前提是使用最新技术作为创意工作流程的一部分，作为工具和资源来推动创意项目。我们到那里时，整个热潮都围绕着 VR。但我想一年后，我们开始阅读 AI 领域的所有最新进展，更具体地说，是生成式方面的进展。对我们来说，那是一个令人震惊的时刻。我们简直不敢相信，我们可以通过文本指令创建图像。我说的是 256 像素乘 256 像素的图像，完全像素化，文本和图像之间的对齐完全不对。但出于创意背景、设计背景，我过去曾在 Arana 设计工作室担任产品设计师，我使用过许多或大多数为创作者存在的软件。看到将想法转化为图像的能力，即使当时看起来非常糟糕，也是一个令人震惊的时刻。就像，我们简直不敢相信这是可能的。一开始，我们就在想，总有一天我们会用它来讲述故事、创建动态图像并制作电影。当时，想到动态图像、想到电影，看到这种输出有点疯狂，但并非不可能。但一个季度后，我们看到了 512 乘 512 像素的图像，好了一点，然后我们看到了 1080 乘 1080 的图像，诸如此类，事情在扩展。直到我们决定需要创建一家公司，最终提供一套工具，让世界上的任何人都能创作长篇故事。

Runway started in 2017, 2018. I met my co-founders at grad school at NYU. We all went to Tisch, to a program called ITP, Interactive Telecommunications Program. The whole premise of the program is to use the latest technologies as part of your creative workflows, as tools and resources to power creative projects. When we got there, the whole boom was around VR. But I think one year in, we started reading all the latest progress in the AI space, more specifically on the generative side of things. For us, it was a shocking moment. We were like, we can't believe that we can create images out of a text instruction. And I'm talking about images that were 256 pixels by 256 pixels, completely pixelated, completely off in alignment between the text and the images. But coming from a creative background, a design background, I've worked as a product designer at anarana Design Studio in the past, I've used many or most of the software that exists for creators. Seeing the capability of having an idea and translating that into an image, even though it looked really bad at that moment, was a shocking moment. It was like, we can't believe this is possible. At the very beginning, we were thinking there's going to be a moment where we're going to be using this to tell stories, to create moving images, and to create movies out of this. At that time, thinking in moving images, thinking in movies, seeing this kind of outputs was kind of crazy, and it wasn't impossible. But a quarter later, we were seeing 512 by 512 pixels that were a little bit better, then we were seeing 1080 by 1080, and things like that, and things were scaling. Until we decided that we needed to create a company that ultimately offered a set of tools that allowed anyone in the world to create long-form stories.

当你距离实现真正大规模采用所需的技术突破还有数年时间时，致力于某件事并努力取得日常进展是什么感觉？

What's it like to work on something and try to make daily progress when you're still years away from the technological breakthrough required to see real mass adoption?

我相信我们一直在创建某种支柱点，帮助我们进入下一阶段。因此，当我们创办公司时，我们最初有一个开源模型的机器学习目录，你可以用它来探索创意项目。这帮助我们构建了基础设施，支撑了我们今天所做的很多事情。所以我们知道，我们需要创建那些在当时需要某种计算使用的东西，需要通过积分等方式来计费。所有这些小小的、复合的努力帮助我们做了下一件事。我们经历了一个试图超越那个阶段的阶段。那是一个我们开始更多探索端到端工作流的阶段。我们在浏览器中创建了一个视频编辑器，以便在我们的工具内完成所有事情。我认为那有点过于雄心勃勃，但我们很快通过这种支柱过程回到了更具迭代性和渐进性的进展。我说的是支持下一个大想法，而不是试图一次完成一件大事。

I believe we have been creating kind of like pillar points that have helped us go into the next phase. So when we started the company, we initially had kind of like a machine learning directory of open source models that you could use to explore creative projects. That helped us to build the infrastructure that is powering a lot of the things that we do today. So we knew that we needed to create things that at that moment needed some kind of computing usage, that needed to be credited by credits and things like that. And all of these kind of small, little compounding efforts have helped us to do the next thing. We passed through a phase where we tried to go beyond that. It was a phase where we started exploring more on end-to-end workflows. We created kind of like a video editor in the browser to do the whole thing within our tool. And I think that was a little bit too ambitious, but we pretty quickly moved back to more iterative and incremental progress through this kind of pillar process. I say to support the next big idea rather than try to do one major thing at once.

快速插播一条消息，然后我们可以继续。Play 不再只是一个原型设计工具，因为他们的下一个版本引入了 Play to Xcode。这意味着你在 Play 中创建的所有内容——你的样式、组件，甚至完整的页面和交互——都可以作为 Swift 包导出。将你的想法放入 App Store 从未如此简单。所以请访问 dive.club/play 了解更多。你知道我一直在想什么吗？Cursor，但是给设计师用的。这就是为什么我全力支持 Deson。它不是另一个用于原型或副项目的从零到一的工具。它是一个可视化界面，让你可以访问公司现有的代码库，这样你就可以对组件、排版、属性等内容进行更新，并将你的设计推送到生产环境，而无需经过工程师。这就是产品设计的未来感觉。你今天就可以开始体验。只需访问 dive。

Real quick message and then we can jump back into it. Play is no longer just a prototyping tool because their next release introduces Play to Xcode. That means everything that you've created in Play, your styles, components, even full pages and interactions, can be exported as a Swift package. It's never been easier to get your ideas into the App Store. So head to dive.club/play to learn more. You know what I can't stop thinking about? Cursor, but for designers. And that's why I'm all in on Deson. It's not another zero-to-one tool for prototypes or side projects. It's a visual interface that gives you access to your company's existing codebase, so you can make updates to things like components, typography, properties, and push your designs to production without having to go through an engineer. And that's what the future of product design will feel like. And you can start experiencing it today. Just head to dive.

我想我可能从一开始就低估了这种刻意性。你似乎一直把全长生成电影放在心上，并且战略性地思考需要哪些支柱或里程碑才能实现。我甚至有些既视感。我最喜欢的书之一是《创意公司》，听到皮克斯的故事以及《玩具总动员》之前多年的艰难跋涉，当时所有人都说那仍然不可能。这有明显的相似之处，听你这么说很酷。

I think maybe I underestimated the intentionality from the very beginning. You kind of always had the full-length generated film in mind and you were thinking strategically about the pillars or milestones you need to get there. I'm even getting some flashbacks. One of my favorite books is Creative Inc, and just hearing the Pixar story and everything that led up to Toy Story, years of trudging through things when everyone looked and said that's still impossible. It's pretty clear parallels, which is cool to hear.

是的，我们的产品变了，但我们的愿景从创立之初就没有变过。一开始，我们就幻想通过一个电影节来推广用户的作品。那时我们称之为 Synthe 电影节。现在我们有了 AI 电影节，今年在纽约和洛杉矶举办第三届。但核心是用这项技术来驱动我们想创作的项目，这些项目与故事讲述和电影制作相关。我上过几年电影学校，我的联合创始人也在电影行业工作过。所以我们有那个背景。当然，我们对技术感到兴奋，但更兴奋的是，使用这些技术在我们想创作的项目中可能带来的成果。所以对我们来说，制作一部两小时电影的想法从一开始就存在。

Yeah, our product has changed, but our vision has never changed since we started. At the very beginning, we were fantasizing with this idea that we should even promote the work of our users through a festival. At that moment, we were calling it Synthe Film Festival. Now we have an AI Film Festival. We are running our third version this year here in New York and in LA. But this idea of using this technology to power the kind of projects that we want to create, and those kind of projects were things related to storytelling, to filmmaking. I went to film school for a few years. My co-founders, they also have been working in the filmmaking industry. So we come from that background. And of course we were excited by the technology, but we were more excited about the potential outcomes that could come using these technologies in the type of projects that we wanted to create. So for us, this idea of creating a two-hour movie has been there since the very beginning.

我想稍后再谈电影背景。首先，为了给人们一个框架，帮助他们更好地理解 Runway 实现了什么。你一开始提到了 256 像素的图像。我们今天到了什么程度？现在产品上有没有一两个你觉得特别吸引人的用例？或者你可以多谈一点，让人们更好地了解可能性。

I want to touch on the film background piece in a second. First, just to give people the bookends and help them better understand what Runway makes possible. You started off talking about the 256 pixel images. Where are we at today? Is there a use case or two that's happening on the product now that you just find fascinating? Or you could talk a little bit more about just to give people a better sense of what's possible.

你可以使用文本、图像或另一个视频作为输入来生成视频，这些视频具有 4K 分辨率，时长可达 10 秒，并且可以扩展到最长 40 秒。今天我们看到用户将这些输出拼接起来，创作短片。在我提到的那个电影节中，我们看到了数千部时长从两分钟到七分钟不等的短片。我们还有一个图像模型。用户的主要工作流程是首先创建一个图像，作为他们想要创作的场景、世界和角色的参考，然后将其作为输入来生成视频。

You can generate videos using both text or image or another video as an input, and videos that have a 4K resolution and that can last 10 seconds, that you can extend to up to 40 seconds. Today we're seeing users using these kind of outputs, stitching them together to create short film pieces. In this festival that I was telling you, we have seen thousands of short films that range from two to seven minutes. We also have an image model. The main workflow of our user is to first start with creating an image as a reference of the type of scenes, the type of world, of characters that they want to create, and then they use that as an input for generating videos.

现在很多公司都在想办法适应 AI，有一种适应或死亡的心态。而你很早就有了远见，围绕这项新技术建立了一整家公司。那么，这种现实以及你的电影背景，如何影响了你想为 Runway 设计的组织类型？

So many companies right now are figuring out how to adapt to AI, and there's kind of this adapt or die mentality. And yet you had the foresight quite early on to build an entire company around this new technology. So how has that reality, as well as your background in film, influenced the type of org that you wanted to design with Runway?

我们是一家应用 AI 研究公司，但我们把自己定位为一家艺术、娱乐和媒体公司。我们将通过创作了多少艺术、使用我们的工具制作了多少电影来衡量成功。这极大地影响了我们运营公司的方式。我们内部有一个创意团队，成员在媒体艺术行业工作了很久，我们让他们与研究人员一起工作。所以我们相信我们是做研究的艺术家，而不是做研究的研究人员。我们让艺术家和研究人员坐在一起，共同朝着我们想要看到的不同想法或目标努力。同时也融入设计等其他部门。我们不相信为了创造我们想要的工具，需要将团队隔离到不同的职能中。我们看到的最佳成果是当设计师、创意人员、研究人员、工程师和产品人员都坐在同一张桌子上，一起集思广益，解决我们想要解决的特定问题。

We are an applied AI research company, but we framed ourselves as an art, entertainment and media company. We are going to measure success by how much art is created, how many movies are going to be produced because of the tools that we are using. And that influenced a lot on how we want to run the company. We have a creative team internally, people who have been working in the media arts industry for a long time, and we see them together with the researchers. So we believe that we are artists doing research, we are not researchers doing research. We sit literally together, artists with researchers, to work together towards different ideas or goals based on the type of outcomes that we want to see. Also incorporating other members of the company like design as well. We don't believe that in order to create the tools that we want to create, we need to silo teams into different functions. The best outcomes that we have seen is when designers, creatives, researchers, engineers, and product are all in the same table, brainstorming together how to address a specific problem that we want to solve.

谢谢你引出这个话题，这正是我想多听一些的。我最近看到一条推文，你谈到设计团队中有产品设计师、设计工程师和前端工程师。你能多分享一些这种组织分组背后的策略，以及它解锁了哪些类型的协作吗？

I appreciate the segue because that's something that I really wanted to hear more about. I saw a recent tweet where you talked about how on the design team you have product designers, design engineers, and front-end engineers. So can you share a little bit more about the underlying strategy behind that way of grouping the org and what types of collaboration does that unlock?

我认为自己是一名设计工程师，或者不管今天流行什么说法。但我过去做过传统的产品设计，后来学会了编程，并把代码作为我的设计工具。公司成立的头四年，我们主要用代码进行设计。我们从 Sketch 过渡到 Figma，用它作为参考来映射想法，但我们没有采用传统的设计、然后交给工程师的流程。我们首先构建东西，理解我们想尝试的特定功能的能力，然后在流程的最后阶段重新设计、打包或思考最终的用户体验。但我们总是从这种方法开始：先构建，然后再回头思考用户体验。

I consider myself a design engineer, or however the latest word of today is. But I come from product design, traditional product design in the past, but then I learned how to code and I moved to applying code as my tool for designing. When we started the company, we were just designing mostly in code for the first four years. We went from Sketch to Figma, and we use it as a reference to map ideas, but we were not working with the traditional process of designing, handing things to engineers. We started by building things first, understanding the capabilities of specific things that we want to try, and then the very last part of the process we were redesigning or packaging or thinking on the final user experience. But we always started with this approach: let's build first, and then we go back and think more on the UX.

现在你们的运营规模比头四年更大，这种方法有演变吗？

Has that evolved now that you're operating at a greater scale than you were in the first four years?

随着公司规模扩大，我们自然开始在公司内部划分不同的职能。我们不得不创建产品设计、工程和研究等职能。我们开始看到需要在 Figma 中呈现产品中的内容，以便更快迭代，也许可以把一些工作交给工程团队的新成员。但今天我们混合了产品设计师、设计工程师和前端工程师，正如你所说。因为我们学到，要构建我们正在构建的东西，特别是与 AI 模型、机器学习模型交互的东西，我们需要先将其可视化，先测试它们以了解性能，而不是在纯设计阶段走得太远。我们学到，有时如果你不投资构建 MVP 或 v0 版本，而纯粹专注于在 Figma 中模拟，你可能会梦想太大，然后现实是模型在特定事情上不会如预期那样表现。所以对我们来说，尽快接近最终产品，然后再回头重新思考如何呈现，变得至关重要。

As we scale the company, we naturally had to start separating different functions within the company. We had to create the product design function, the engineering function, the research function. We started to see the need of having a representation of what we have in the product in Figma so we can iterate there faster, maybe we can hand off some of the things that we're working to new members in the engineering team for them to work. But today we have kind of a mix, as you were saying, of product designers, design engineers, and front-end engineers, because we have learned that in order to build the things that we are building, specifically the things that interact with AI models, with machine learning models, we need to be able to visualize them first, to test them first in order to see how they perform, rather than going too far on the pure design phase. We have learned that sometimes if you don't invest in building an MVP or a v0 of something that you have in mind, and you purely focus on mocking this in Figma, you might dream too big and then the reality is that the model will not perform as expected on specific things. So for us, it has become crucial to try to get as fast as we can to the final thing and then go back and rethink how we want to present it.

我们尝试过不同的方法。公司有一个设计轮岗项目，前端团队成员可以申请转到设计团队工作最多一个月，并向设计团队汇报。这有三个原因。第一，我们学到的一点是：快速构建和优先构建会影响我们正在创造的产品类型，也会影响我们对交互方式、用户体验的想象。这极大地影响了我们如何构建那些模型，以及如何构建底层技术来支持它们。第二，在 Runway，我们没有设计系统，只有某种风格指南来保持一致性。我们发展极快，有时很难在所有工作上保持完全一致，但我们正在加大努力改善这一点，让产品线更加连贯和一致。我不认为通过写文档、写风格指南或分享一些供他人参考的东西就能达到目标。我认为必须通过体验来实现。所以想法是，工程师参与设计讨论，内化这些理念——我们该把注意力放在哪里，如何提升一致性和连贯性——然后希望他们回去后能传播这些理念。到目前为止，效果不错。第三，是为了建立更紧密的协作。我们相信需要创造更多想法，因为我们处理的是前所未见的新事物。我们需要大量探索和测试，而且越快越好。我们认识到，在设计和工程之间建立这种协作，对影响产品决策非常有益。

We have tried different things. We have a program at the company that is a design rotation where members of the frontend team can apply to move to the design team for up to a month and report to design. There are three different reasons for that. One is the thing we have learned: building fast and building first influences the type of products that we are creating, and also influences ideas on research on how do we imagine the interaction to be, how do we want the user experience to be. And that has influenced a lot on how we want to build those models or how we want to build the underlying tech to support that. The second reason is at Runway we don't have a design system; we have some kind of style guide that we use to maintain consistency. We move extremely fast and sometimes it's really hard to have full consistency on every single thing that we're working on, but we are doing more efforts on improving that, on having more coherence and consistency across our product line. And I don't believe that we're gonna get there by writing a document, writing a style guide, or sharing something that other members can consume. I think we're going to get there by experience. So the idea is that engineers come to these design conversations, they interiorize these ideas of where do we want to focus, where do we want to put more attention in having more consistency and more coherence, and hopefully they can propagate that when they go back. And so far it has worked well. And the third, just to build more strong collaborations. We believe that we need to create more ideas because we are working with things that are new, that we haven't seen before. We need to explore a lot and we need to test a lot of things, and hopefully as fast as we can. So we have learned that building these kinds of collaborations between design and engineering has paid off really well for influencing some of the product decisions.

我很喜欢这个想法。我一直在思考的一个假设是，衡量设计与开发协作的最佳指标是探索性代码被丢弃的比例，因为这能确保开发团队尽早介入。还有什么比直接把开发人员嵌入设计团队更好的方式呢？我以前没听说过这种轮岗项目，但我觉得这是个很酷的模式。

I love that. A hypothesis I've been thinking through is that the best measuring stick for design-development collaboration is the percentage of exploratory code that's just thrown away, because it ensures development gets involved super early. And what better way to do that than directly embed them on the design team? I haven't heard that type of rotation program before, but I think it's a really cool model.

是的，关于设计师是否应该写代码，一直有很多讨论。我认为当然应该。也许他们应该学习一切。设计师的角色就是保持好奇，尽可能多学东西。但最重要的是，如果你在构建产品，整个职能应该更了解技术层面。所以我认为这不是团队中某个人的问题，而是整个团队需要共同内化这些技能，以便进行任何形式的探索。

Yeah, there's this whole conversation of should designers code or not. I think yes, for sure. Maybe they should learn everything. I think the role of designers is to be curious and learn as many things as we can. But I think most importantly, the function should know more of the technical aspects if you're building a product. So I don't think it's a matter of an individual within a team; I think it's a function of the team to have these skills interiorized together to pursue any kind of idea of exploration.

是的，我想仅仅通过与工程团队紧密合作，就会有很多自然的渗透。比如作为设计师，我可能会吸收很多技术知识或思维模型，以不同的方式看待事物。

Yeah, I'd imagine there's a lot of natural osmosis that happens just by working closely with engineering too. Like as a designer, I'm probably absorbing a lot of technical know-how or mental models, seeing things a little bit differently.

是的，完全同意。我们正在尝试超越这一点。目前只是前端工程师轮岗到设计团队，但我想我们也在探索研究和设计如何更紧密地协作，以便更早地理解一些关键概念，即如何基于可能性构建正确的体验。

Yeah, 100%. And we're trying to go beyond that. Right now it's purely frontend engineers rotating to design teams, but I think we're also exploring how research and design can have some more collaborative efforts, in which we can get closer to understanding earlier some of the key concepts of how to build the right experiences based on what is possible.

我们能深入谈谈吗？因为与研究团队协作的想法已经在几期节目中出现过，我相信对大多数听众来说，这仍然是个黑箱，因为大多数人没有在这种环境中工作过。所以你能谈谈这种协作是什么样的，以及在一个以研究为核心的组织中，产品创意是如何流动的吗？

Can we go a little bit deeper there? Because the idea of collaborating with a research team has come up now in a few different episodes, and I'm sure for the vast majority of people listening, it's a bit of a black box still, because most people haven't worked in that environment. So can you talk a little bit about what that collaboration looks like, but also just the flow of product ideas in an org where research is a core component?

首先，作为一家公司，我们没有严格遵循的产品路线图，而是有研究探索领域。作为研究型组织，困难之一是你永远不知道研究何时会准备好，是否能达到目标，以及过程中是否会发现其他东西。比如，在试图达到某个特定目标时，你可能会发现其他事物。所以我们的工作方式是，不断沟通并监控研究方面的进展，看看能从中提取什么，来创造一些想法、原型，以及我们认为对 Runway 用户有益的东西。情况不断变化。我认为正是由于这种动态——观察不同研究的状态——你可能在某一周专注于某件事，下一周发现了新东西，然后可能转向探索那个新方向。当这种情况发生时，通常就像我之前说的，研究人员、设计师、产品工程师和创意团队的人会坐在一起说：“好，我们现在在这里。这看起来很棒，对这三个用例有很大潜力。让我们在这里多探索一点，看看作为团队，我们最终如何思考某个特定功能或产品。”所以我认为，与研究合作的关系或过程非常动态，并且根据研究的进展而大幅变化。

Yeah, so first of all, as a company we don't have a roadmap that we follow; we have research areas of exploration. One of the things that is hard to do when you are a research organization is that you never know when research is going to be ready, and if it's going to get there, and if you're gonna find things halfway through. Like you might discover some other things while you're trying to get to a specific place. So the way that we work is that we are constantly talking and monitoring what's happening on the research side to see what are the things that we can extract from there to create some ideas, some prototypes, some things that we believe can be beneficial for our users at Runway. Things change constantly. I think because of this dynamic of seeing what's the status in research for different things, you might be working on something on a specific week, and next week there is something else that we discover, and maybe we switch gears to explore that. And when those things happen, normally as I said before, researchers, designers, product engineers, and people from the creative team sit together and say, "Okay, we are here. This looks amazing and this has a lot of potential for these three use cases. Let's try to explore more a little bit here to see where we land as a team for thinking on a specific feature or product." So I think that relationship or that process of working with research is pretty dynamic and changes a lot depending on where research is.

我想深入探讨一下，因为我先快速总结几个变量，然后引出我心中的问题。你正在与 AI 合作，这意味着很多事情必须在代码中探索，因为你必须从模型获得输出，才能看到它到底是什么样子。同时，由于一切都在不断变化，你们没有正式的、长期的产品路线图。而且，你们实际关注的大部分内容都是由研究及其解锁的不同可能性催生的。那么在这种环境下，当构建 AI 产品时，设计在塑造产品战略方面扮演什么角色？

I'm going to double click on that because there's a few different variables that I'm going to summarize real quickly leading up to a question that's on my mind. Which is, you're working with AI, meaning a lot of things just have to be explored in code because you have to get the output from the model to even see what the heck this looks like. You also have the lack of a formal, whole long roadmap just because everything's changing all the time. And then you have much of what you're actually going to be focusing on birthed by research and the different possibilities that they unlock. So in that type of environment, what's the role that design plays in shaping product strategy when you're building AI products?

但你也在为特定用例创建和设计这些模型。你有点像在雕刻产品，而不是在构建产品。你有一个假设：我们有一个模型，我们投入时间研究和创建了一个能执行特定操作的模型。但我们学到的是，大多数时候它还会解锁许多我们可能没有考虑到的东西。所以你从构思如何与这个模型交互、如何沟通开始。我把它看作是一块巨大的石头摆在你面前，你知道这是一块美丽的石头，有潜力成为伟大的雕塑，但然后你……

But you're also creating those models and designing those models for specific types of use cases. You are kind of like carving the product; you're not actually building the product. You have a hypothesis: we have this model, we have invested time in researching and creating a specific model that can perform specific operations. But what we have learned is that most of the time it unlocks many things that we have maybe not considered as well. So you start by creating an idea of how to interact, how to communicate with this model. The way that I see is like this huge stone that is presented to you, that you know is a beautiful stone that has a lot of potential to become a great sculpture, but then you...

开始拆解，就像构建原型、制作杯子一样，然后你开始发现不同的使用方式，用于新的用例或你未曾预料到的新事物，并且你看到这些是可行的。所以我认为，设计和产品角色的很大一部分就是通过测试、通过不断探索如何使用——或者我们团队内部如何探索能力和可能性——来识别这些可能性，并试图将其转化为每个人都能使用的东西。

Start taking out pieces which is like building prototypes, creating mugs, and then you start discovering different ways of how you can use it for new use cases or new things that you didn't anticipate that are possible and that you're seeing that work. So a lot of the design and I guess design and product role I believe is to identify those kinds of possibilities by testing, by constantly exploring how you can use or how internally us as a team are exploring the capabilities and the possibilities and try to frame that into something that everyone can use.

我喜欢“雕琢产品”这个想法。有没有一个具体的例子可以说明这在实践中是什么样的，让我们更好地理解在 Runway 做设计师是什么感觉？

I love the idea of carving the product. Is there a specific example that we could use to shine a light on what that looks like in practice and better understand what it's like to be a designer at Runway?

一个是运动笔刷工具，这是一个控制工具，让你决定如何在生成的场景中移动一个主体。我们通过探索不同的想法，确定了多种实现方式，但最终是通过创建一些想法或原型，并与一位研究人员合作——他决定了如何设计底层模型以实现这种用户体验——才得以实现。我们经历了不同的阶段，但最终我认为这为我们想要采用的交互方式提供了很多信息，帮助我们决定选择哪种方法。

One is the motion brush tool, which is a control tool to allow you to decide how you want to move a subject within a generated scene. We identified many different ways in which we want that to happen by exploring different ideas, but it ended up working by kind of like creating the smups ideas or prototypes and working together with a researcher who kind of like decided how to design the underlying model to allow for that kind of user experience. We went through different phases, but at the end I think it informed a lot the type of interaction that we wanted to have to decide which approach we wanted to take.

所以听起来在那情况下，有一个用户机会或问题：好的，我们需要在场景中移动物体，设计可能很清楚地发现了这一点。然后协作就是：好的，我们如何利用研究来构建实现这个用户结果所需的功能，这可能是比较直观的。看看当前的产品，不难发现这是需要的。有没有另一个例子，某个可能性是从研究中涌现出来的，而设计甚至都没想过，突然之间你们就‘哇，让我们想想怎么利用这个’？

So it sounds like in that situation there was a user opportunity or problem: it's like okay, we need to move things in a scene, and design could probably pretty clearly spot that. And then the collaboration is like okay, what can we do with research to build the functionality needed to achieve this user outcome that probably is somewhat intuitive. It's not hard to look at the current set of the product and see that is needed. Is there another example where maybe a certain possibility emerged from research that design wasn't even thinking about, that all of a sudden you're like whoa, let's figure out how to make use of that?

我知道很多想法来自‘哦，设计根本没想过那是一种可能性’。反过来也一样，不一定都是设计的影响。我认为很多也受到我提到的创意团队的影响，因为研究人员希望将他们的研究应用到实际产品中，对吧？但当你把他们与其他有电影制作、活动策划、创作经验的团队成员配对时，他们知道那些研究人员过去可能从未接触过的、需要考虑的细节。我认为当你看到他们在一起互相影响时，就是魔法发生的时候。而且我认为这有时来自创意、设计或产品团队。

I know a lot of things come from like oh, design wasn't even thinking that was a possibility. And I think the other way around, not necessarily influenced by design. I think a lot of them also influenced by the creative team that I mentioned, because researchers want to apply their research into applications, right? But when you pair that with other team members who have experience in creating films, in creating campaigns, in creating things, they know the granular things that are important to consider that perhaps a researcher might not have had any exposure in the past. And I think when you see them together to kind of like try to influence each other is when I guess the magic happens. And I think that happens sometimes from creative or design or product.

我脸上不禁露出笑容，因为很多团队都按照传统的模式运作，比如产品设计工程，而你们却完全另辟蹊径。你们有研究团队，有创意团队，所有界限都很模糊，也没有路线图，说实话，这听起来真是一个很有趣的工作场所。

I just have a smile on my face because so many teams operate in this traditional stool or whatever you want to refer to it as with like the product design engineering, and here you are just doing things way out in left field. Like you have the research team, you have the creative team, and all these lines are blurry and there's lack of road maps, and honestly it just sounds like a really fun place to work.

在 Runway，每周的工作内容变化很大，这真的很有趣。我认为我和设计团队特别强调的一点是，你永远不知道接下来会发生什么。我们每周只有三次设计团队会议：周一规划，周三做设计评审，周五讨论更多想法、灵感和下一步想做的事情。但很多个周一，你都不知道自己会做什么，因为事情已经变了。我来自智利，我喜欢足球。我有点教练心态，喜欢尝试把球员放在不同的位置上。有时你会处理用户工作流方面的事情，下一周又可能做工具开发。所以没有专业化。我希望团队能接触到所有方面，因为我相信一切是一个整体。如果你在工具的各个方面都工作过，你就能与团队其他成员建立和分享更多知识，我们都能收获很多。

It's really fun to change a lot in what you will be working each week at Runway. I think something that I talked a lot specifically with the design team is that you never know. Like we only have three meetings weekly with the design team: one is Monday to plan, Wednesday to kind of like do design critique, and Friday to talk about a little bit more ideas and inspiration and things that we want to work next. But many Mondays you don't know where you're going to be working because things have changed. I come from Chile, I like soccer. I see myself a little bit of like a coach mentality, and I like to try to put players in different positions. Sometimes you will be working on the user workflow side of things, and the next week you will be working on the tooling. So there's no specialization. I want the team to be exposed to everything because I believe everything is one as a whole. If you work on all aspects of the tool, you build and share more knowledge with the rest of the team, and we all gain much.

考虑到变化之大——不仅是技术、产品，还有随着团队成长你的角色也变了，你更像一个教练而不是个人贡献者——你有没有有意识地决定改变团队的运作方式或某些流程、仪式？你在哪些方面战略性地做出了层级调整，能告诉我们一些原因吗？

Given the amount of change not only in the technology, the product, also your role as the team grows and you become more of a coach and less of an IC, are there ways where you have made a conscious decision to evolve the way that the team operates or certain processes or rituals? Where have you strategically made like level changes and can you give us a little bit of the reason why?

我认为主要是这个想法：让设计团队成为一个技术职能。我认为产品设计的未来，至少在这个领域构建产品，需要具备技术能力。我们曾短暂地认为产品设计就是传统的产品设计师，所有技术方面都由公司的工程团队处理。但我认为，回归我们刚开始时那种一切更模糊、更混合的理念，已经对我们构建产品的方式产生了巨大变化。我为什么这么说呢？因为发生的主要变化是，当你无法测试 AI 工具时，很难建立信心，对吧？你可以对一个特定项目进行更广泛的探索，尝试许多可能的事情，但在浏览器中、在它实际存在的媒介中测试时，你需要考虑延迟、如何响应、用户等待时的期望是什么、我们是否阻塞了某些东西？我认为很多在纯设计阶段难以衡量、测试或可视化的事情都至关重要。而且我认为，自从我们开始在团队中增加更多技术人员以来，这已经改变了——在判断哪个方向更好方面建立了信心，我们通过在实际的主代码库中或完全独立的游乐场环境中构建真正的原型来做到这一点，从而帮助我们决定要采取哪个决策。

I do think it's mainly this idea of incorporating or making the design team a technical function. I do think the future of product design, at least building in this space, requires to be technical. We had for a brief moment this idea of like product design is just traditional product designers and all the technical aspects were handled in the engineering side of the company. I do think that bringing this idea back from when we started that everything was a little bit more blurry, a little bit more mixed, has created a big change on how we approach building. And why I'm saying this is because the main change that has happened there is it's really hard to build confidence in building AI tools when you cannot test them, right? You can have like a broader exploration of many possible things that you can do for one specific project, but at the moment of testing that in the browser, in the medium where it lives, you need to be able to consider like latency or how to respond or what's their user expectation when they're waiting, are we blocking some stuff? I think many things that perhaps are hard to measure, test, or visualize purely on the design phase are crucial. And I think since we started adding more technical folks within the team, that has changed in growing that confidence in which direction seems better than other, and we do that through building actually real prototypes within the main kind of like code base or externally in completely separated playground environments to help us influence which decision do we want to take here.

你能谈谈这如何影响你评估设计人才的方式吗？比如你对技术门槛的要求有多高？

Can you talk a little bit about how that influences the way that you evaluate design talent? Like how high is your technical threshold that you're looking for?

这取决于我们在特定时间需要什么。再次用足球心态来说，我认为当团队识别出特定团队所需的不同技能时，团队运作得更好。就像一支足球队，你需要有人能组织进攻、有人能得分、有守门员。我认为这非常相似。我不认为拥有擅长工艺的优秀产品设计师就能组成优秀的产品设计团队。我认为这是一个组合。如果你有一个人非常擅长视觉，另一个人非常擅长研究，还有一个人擅长将这些想法实现为我们可以测试的东西，还有一个人更倾向于理解如何更好地……

It depends what we need in a specific time. Again with this soccer mentality, I think teams work better when you identify different skills that are needed for specific teams. Like a soccer team, you need someone who can create a play, who can score, a goalkeeper. I do see it very similar in that way. I don't think like having great product designers who are great at the craft are visual creat great product design teams. I think it's a combination. I think if you have someone who is really great at visual, someone who is really great maybe research, someone who is great at implementing those ideas into things that we can test, someone who is more inclined into understanding how to better...

如今我们的设计师在代码方面探索了多少？我知道你说这是趋势，但考虑到与工程团队的紧密合作，这是否也意味着设计师其实并不怎么深入代码，或者说界限在哪里？

How much exploring are our designers doing in code today? I know you're saying this is kind of where it's going, this is the trend, but given the closeness of collaboration with engineering, does that also mean that maybe designers actually aren't into the code that much, or where does that line exist?

不，设计师、产品设计师并不写代码。他们与设计工程师或前端工程师合作。我认为整个理念是希望他们一起工作，我们想要衡量的是在浏览器中与功能性内容交互的情况，而不是花太多时间审查静态原型。

No, designers, product designers are not coding. They're working with design engineers or frontend engineers. I think the whole idea is that I want them to work together, or we want to work together, and we want to measure things on mostly interacting with the things in the browser with things that are functional, rather than spending too much time reviewing static prototypes.

嘿，我是 Red。经常有人问我最喜欢的产品，所以我花一分钟快速介绍一下我的工具栈。Deson 让我无需编码就能交付设计变更。Framer 用来搭建网站。Genway 用来做研究。Jitter 用来给设计添加动画。Play 用来设计和原型移动应用。Visual Electric 用来生成所有图像。Raycast 则是每一步的快捷方式。我精心挑选了这些公司与我合作，这样我就能全职制作这些节目。目前支持节目最好的方式就是去看看它们。你可以在 dive.club/partners 找到完整列表。好了，现在继续节目的其余部分。

Hey, it's Red. I'm constantly asked about my favorite product, so I'm going to take just one minute and give you a quick rundown of my stack. Deson is how I ship design changes without having to code. Framer is how I build my websites. Genway is how I do research. Jitter is how I animate my designs. Play is how I design and prototype mobile apps. Visual Electric is how I generate all of my imagery. And Raycast is my shortcut every step of the way. Now, I've hand selected these companies to partner with me so that I can do these episodes full time. So the best way by far to support the show is to check them out. You can find the full list at dive.club/partners. Okay, now on to the rest of the episode.

我想稍微转个弯，把视角拉远一点，因为整个对话的起因是你发的一条推文，我读了之后就一直念念不忘。我念一下让大家了解背景，然后希望你能进一步阐述这个想法和你的思考。你说：“我看到很多观点认为品味是未来的关键差异化技能，但我认为直觉将发挥更大的作用。”你是什么意思？

I want to take a little bit of a hard left and zoom out a bit, because the impetus for this entire conversation was a tweet that you had that I haven't stopped thinking about since I read it. I'm just going to read it so people have the context, and then I'd love to hear you unpack the idea a little bit more and what you're thinking. You said: 'I see a lot of opinions about taste as the key differential skill in the future, but I think intuition will play a larger role.' What do you mean by that?

是的，当我读到这些关于品味将成为关键差异化技能的观点时，它假设你像一个策展人，面对机器产生的输出进行筛选。所以我认为这意味着成功的人将是那些能够理解或过滤出好东西的人，对吧？但我认为，当好东西成为默认时，它就失去了价值。我认为更重要的是思考：还有什么？我能把它带到哪里？如果我在评估很多好东西，我处在一个空间里，我还能做什么？我认为这更多来自直觉，问自己：当一切都很好的时候，我还能在此基础上做什么？所以对我来说，由于我们公司的性质，我参加了很多关于 AI 在电影制作中以及 AI 如何影响叙事的讨论会。我认为这些都是非常有效的问题，我们假设我们将创作越来越雄心勃勃的电影和短片之类的。但我认为，真正与众不同的是那些开始思考：我们可以用它创造什么？我们可以把它提升到新高度的新事物是什么？而不是策展什么是好什么是坏。

Yeah, when I read these comments about taste being the key differential skill to have, it assumes that you are kind of acting as a curator when you get exposed to outputs that are produced by the machine. So I take that as the ones who are going to succeed are the ones who are able to understand or filter things that are good, right? But I think when things start to become good as default, I think it loses its value. And I think it's more important to think about: what else? Where can I take this? If I'm evaluating many good things, I'm in a space, what else can I do? And I think that comes more from intuition, to ask yourself: what other thing can I do on top of this when everything is good? So to me, because of the nature of our company, I go to a lot of panels that are around AI in filmmaking and how AI is going to influence storytelling. I think those are very valid questions, and we assume that we're going to be creating more and more ambitious movies and short films and stuff like that. But I think, in my opinion, what is going to be really different are those who are going to start thinking: what are the kind of things that we can create with this? What are the new things where we can take this to the next level? Rather than curating what is good or what is bad.

我喜欢这个观点，因为直觉几乎是根本技能。直觉是你创造探索空间的方式，AI 可能在其中扩展迭代，然后你进行策展，品味介入以确保你选择正确的东西。但能够理解如何引导所有这些新工具，如果你不能有效地做到这一点，其他都无关紧要。

I like that, because it's like intuition is almost the root skill. Intuition is how you create the playground that you're even exploring within, where maybe AI can scale iteration, and then you're curating and your taste is coming in to make sure that you're selecting the right things. But being able to understand where to point all of these new tools, nothing really matters if you can't do that effectively.

是的，完全正确。我想我只是纯粹在讨论谁会脱颖而出，对吧？我认为如果问题是，你想拥有一个能让你脱颖而出的技能，我不认为仅仅是识别什么是好的，尤其是当好成为默认、一切都好的时候。更像是：我承认这可能是好的，但我会问自己：这还需要什么才能把它提升到另一个层次？

Yeah, exactly. I think I'm just talking purely on who's going to stand out, right? I think if the question is like, if you want to have a skill that you will use to stand out, I don't think it will be just identifying what's good, specifically not when good is the default and everything is good. It's more like: I acknowledge that maybe this is good, but I'm going to question myself: what else this needs to take this to another level?

好了，那么我想听听你设想的未来。因为回到最初，你从 256 像素的方块开始，现在突然有了这些 20-40 秒的视频。全长生成式电影不仅感觉并非不可能，而且感觉相当可行且不可避免。所以我想你可能甚至看得更远一些。那么让我们进入你的大脑片刻：一旦这些新型创意能力完全民主化，这会走向何方？

All right, so then I want to hear a little bit from you about the futures you're imagining. Because going back to the beginning, you started at the 256 pixel squares, and now you have these 20-40 second videos all of a sudden. The full-length generative film doesn't just feel not impossible, but it feels like quite attainable and inevitable. And so I would imagine that you're probably even looking beyond that a little bit. So put us inside of your brain for just a second: like, where can this go once these new types of creative abilities are completely democratized?

当相机被发明时，我们从未预见到电影。电影是相机发明的结果，而电影是我们现在离不开的艺术形式。不幸的是，我没有正确的答案来说我们今天用生成式媒体所做的一切会转化为这种新的艺术形式，但我毫不怀疑它会转化为我们过去从未考虑过的东西。我认为会有更多电影获得批准。会有更多来自世界各地的艺术家能够讲述他们以前无法讲述的故事。作为一个来自智利、在智利上过电影学校、理解在一个很难构思电影项目的地方思考电影制作项目有多复杂的人，我认为由于这类工具的民主化，我们将开始看到更多故事发生，它们将来自传统上没有太多机会创作这类项目的地方。但另一方面，我认为我们将达到一个点，通过使用，我们将以艺术家挑战其使用方式并创造我们今天无法预见的新使用方式来理解这项技术。我们正在跟踪和监控其他领域的情况，比如游戏、VR、头戴设备、同人小说等各种事情。但我认为我们的角色不是说这会转化为那个。这是创作者、艺术家的角色，用这个工具来推动他们所能创造的边界。

When the camera was invented, we never anticipated cinema. Cinema was a consequence of the invention of the camera, and cinema is an art form that now we cannot live without. Unfortunately, I don't have the right answer to say what we're doing today with generative media is going to translate into this new art form, but I have no doubt that it is going to translate into something that we have not even considered in the past. I think there's going to be more movies that are going to get greenlit. There are going to be more artists from different places of the world that are going to be able to tell the stories that they couldn't tell before. And saying this being someone who came from Chile, who went to film school in Chile, who understands how complicated it is to think about a filmmaking project when you're in a place where it's really hard to think about projects like that. I think because of the democratization of these types of tools, we're going to start seeing more stories that are going to happen, they're going to be produced from places that traditionally haven't had much of a chance to create this kind of projects. But on the other side, I think we're going to get to a point where through usage, we're going to understand this technology in a way that the artists are going to challenge its usage and create new ways of using it that we cannot anticipate today. We are tracking and monitoring what's happening in other things, like what's happening in gaming, what's happening in VR, what's happening with the headsets, what's happening with fan fiction, what's happening with different kinds of things. But I don't think it's the role of us to say this is going to translate into that. It is the role of the creators, the role of the artists, to use this tool to push the boundaries of what they can create.

它们会告诉我们，新的艺术形式将会被创造出来。我也很想知道会出现哪些新的分发渠道，因为就算有了所有这些新电影——也许“电影”这个词长远来看甚至有点过时了——也不意味着它们就容易被发现。所以我觉得这会迫使人们用不同的方式去接入一个庞大得多的长片集合，或者随便你怎么称呼它。这很迷人。想象一下未来的世界是什么样子，是个有趣的思维练习，而我们并不知道答案，对吧？我猜事情可能会变成永不完结的故事，也许你不在大屏幕上消费它们，而是在手机上每天看，它们还会变化，因为内容创作能力会变得极其简单、便宜和易得。所以，为什么一定要认为你需要做一个在特定时间、特定地点展示的项目呢？也许它们可以同时发生，可以是实时的，或者存在于和过去不同的空间里。我不知道，但我觉得当你问我看到的未来是什么时，我认为是一个更具创造力的世界，整体上会有更多创造性的成果。因为首先，我们会有更多的故事。我们公司有句话：我们相信最好的故事还没有被讲出来。而由于这些工具的普及，我们更有可能看到那些故事了。

They are the ones going to tell us what new art forms are going to be created. I'm also interested just to see the new distribution channels that emerge too, because just because there are all these new movies — which maybe that word in the long run even feels a little bit antiquated — doesn't necessarily mean that they are discoverable. So I feel like it's going to force different ways of plugging into a much, much, much larger set of feature-length films, or however you want to refer to it. It's fascinating. It's a fun thought exercise to imagine what the world looks like, and we don't know, right? I guess things can translate into stories that never end, and maybe you don't consume them on a large screen; maybe you consume them on your phone every day, and they change because the ability to produce content is going to be so much simpler, cheaper, and more accessible. So maybe why think that you need to work on a project that is going to be displayed in this specific location at a specific time? Maybe they can happen simultaneously, they can be in real time, or they can live in different spaces than they have in the past. So I don't know, but I think when you ask me what's the future that I see, I think a future of a more creative world, a more creative outcome overall. Because first, we're going to have more stories. We have this phrase here at the company that we like to say: we believe that the best stories have not been told yet. And I think because of the access to these kinds of tools, there are more chances that we're going to be seeing those stories now.

我想到了那种游戏：你画一部分画，然后把纸传给朋友，他们画一部分，再传给下一个人。我就想，合作拍电影会是什么样子？你们一起实时构思故事，醒来就看到朋友做的下一章，或者类似的东西？那太疯狂了。是的，我对那个领域非常感兴趣。你知道我们看电视剧的时候，周日晚上看季终集，周一午饭时大家都会讨论结局。我们喜欢谈论发生了什么，或者可能发生了什么，或者我们希望发生什么。我设想了一个场景，我们可以用视频或某种可能互动的方式来继续那个对话。这就是为什么我说我们在关注同人小说。我认为要实现那一点，很多事情都需要发生，才能制作出那样的东西。但如果我们纯粹在推测，我对一个观众、粉丝也能为故事做出贡献的场景感到兴奋。

I had the picture of the game you play where you draw a portion of a picture and then you pass the paper to your friend, and they draw a portion and pass it to the next person. And I'm like, man, what does it look like to have collaborative filmmaking where you're crafting the story in real time together, and you wake up to the next chapter that your friend made or something like that? That's crazy. Yeah, I'm super interested in that area actually. You know how when we watch a TV show, when we watch the season finale on a Sunday night, next lunch on the Monday after, we all discuss the finale. We like to talk about what happened or what could have happened or what we would have liked to happen. I see a scenario where it's us who can continue that conversation in the form of video or in the form of something that may perhaps be interactive. And that's why I was saying that we're monitoring fan fiction. I think a lot of things need to happen in order for that to happen, to be able to produce that. But if we are just purely speculating, I think I'm excited about a scenario where the viewers, the fans, can contribute to the story as well.

有意思。你说得对，这是一种完全不同的思考 IP 的方式。就像我在想《人生切割术》的剧集。它们播出后，所有 meme 占领了推特。如果我真的能想象下一集的延续会是什么样子，然后我回推文时，实际上是一个 30 秒的片段，比如“如果接下来发生这个会怎样？”人们可以看，然后你再看实际发生了什么。那太疯狂了。

Interesting. You're right, it's a totally different way to think about IP. Like I'm thinking about the Severance episodes. They air, and then all the memes take over Twitter. And like, what if I could actually imagine what the continuation of the next episode would look like, and when I contribute back to Twitter, it's actually a 30-second snippet of like, "What if this happened next?" And people could watch it, and then you tune in to see what actually happens. That's crazy.

是的，对我来说这是一种采样，就像嘻哈或音乐里的采样：你拿一些东西，然后用不同的方式使用它。我很兴奋地想看看未来这会如何发展，如果真有那么一回事的话。再说一次，很多事情需要发生才能让那真正成为可能，但这可能是一个场景。为什么不呢？另一方面，我刚当了爸爸。我有一个一岁半的儿子。我从电影学院退学了，因为构思一个电影项目过去需要三年才能真正变成你可以获得任何反馈的东西。今天你几秒钟就能得到反馈。我喜欢想，等我儿子开始阅读或创作他自己的故事时，他会立即得到那些故事的视觉反馈。他们会创作什么呢？他们将能如此多地幻想可能的世界，而我们过去可能没有那种途径。

Yeah, to me it's a form of what sampling is in hip hop or music: you take something and you take it to a different way of using it. I'm super excited to see how that plays in the future, if there is something there. Again, a lot of things need to happen to allow for that to be actually possible, but it could be one scenario. Why not? On the other side, I just became a father. I have a one-and-a-half-year-old son. And I dropped out of film school because thinking of a filmmaking project used to take three years to actually materialize into something you can get any type of feedback on. Today you have feedback in a couple of seconds. I like to think that by the time my son starts reading or creating his own stories, he will start having immediate visual feedback on those stories. And what are they going to be creating? They're going to have so much access to fantasizing in possible worlds that we maybe didn't have that kind of access in the past.

我喜欢提的一个假设是：我可以想象自己在厨房里——因为我也快有一个一岁大的孩子了，同样的旅程——我就想，等她四岁的时候，如果我在厨房，她跑过来说：“爸爸，看我做了什么！”然后那是一部电影，你知道吗？她可以开发自己的 IP，讲自己的故事。也许它们甚至是多媒体的，你知道吗？也许有些是电影，有些是书，你只管创作。我是说，那一代人有无穷的创作能力。这太难想象了。甚至屏幕时间这个概念：我有个哥哥，他有个六岁的孩子，作为父母你会非常在意这件事。你会想：“天哪，我们给他们多少屏幕时间？”但我想，在一个大部分屏幕时间都是创造性的、你在创作而不是被动消费的世界里，这个讨论会如何改变？那会是我们的希望。天哪，这难道不会彻底颠覆为人父母的样子吗？

A hypothetical I love bringing up is just: I can imagine myself in the kitchen — because I also have a one-year-old in two months, same exact journey — and I'm just like, man, by the time she's four years old, what if I'm in the kitchen and she comes around and she's like, "Daddy, look what I made!" And it's a freaking movie, you know? And she can develop her own IP and tell her own stories. And maybe they're even multimedia, you know? Maybe some of them are movies, some of them are books, and you can just create. I mean, endless creative capabilities for that generation. It's so hard to imagine. And even the idea of screen time: I have a brother who has a six-year-old, and it's like that's a really big thing you're thinking about as a parent. It's like, "Oh my gosh, how much screen time do we give them?" But I'm like, how does that discussion change in a world where most of the screen time is creative and you're making rather than mindlessly consuming things? That would be my hope. And man, does that just blow the roof off of what it looks like to be a parent coming up here?

是的，当然。我认为这会带来更有创造性的结果，比如能够接触到那些能增强你心中所想的东西，并获得实时反馈。我觉得这会非常强大。

Yeah, for sure. I see it as a more creative outcome or results, like having access to things that augment the things you have in mind and have real-time feedback. I think it's going to be super powerful.

是的，我也很兴奋世界上能有更多的 IP。比如，我有一个吐槽——这甚至不是个问题，我就是要吐槽，因为我不知道还有谁，我没有其他嘉宾可以对这个特定话题吐槽。但我看了去年票房最高的电影。前 20 名里，我相信 20 部中有 19 部没有新 IP。它们只是续集，一遍又一遍地炒冷饭。天哪，别再拍《玩具总动员》了。两部前作已经很完美了，你们还在不断重来，因为现在电影界有这种风险规避。因为每部电影都必须大卖，一切都那么贵。从很高的层面来说，我热切地支持电影的长尾效应。我认为，让那种创造力诞生，对整个社会都是好事。

Yeah, I'm just excited for more IP to exist in the world too. Like, a rant I have — it's not even a question, I'm just going to rant because I don't know who else, I don't have another guest that I could rant to this specific topic to. But I was looking at the highest-grossing movies from last year. It was a top 20 list, and I believe 19 of 20 had no new IP associated with them. They were just sequels, just running it back again. Like, my God, stop making Toy Story. It was perfect two ago, and you just keep running it back again because there's this risk aversion in film right now. Because everything has to be a hit, everything's so expensive. And at a very high level, I'm rooting passionately for the long tail of film. And I think it's just going to be good for society as a whole for that level of creativity to be birthed.

是的，当然。有太多故事还没有机会被制作出来，它们来自不同的地方。其中大部分是本地故事，比如又来自智利。我知道有很多来自神话或街头故事的本地故事，或者类似的东西，或者本地角色，它们还没有机会被创作成可以与世界其他地方分享的东西。

Yeah, for sure. There are so many stories that haven't had the chance yet to be made, and that come from different places. Most of them are local stories, like again coming from Chile. I know there are a lot of local stories from myth or street stories or things like that, or characters that are local that haven't had the chance to be created into something that can be shared with the rest of the world.

世界，我认为现在它为这些事情的发生打开了更多可能性。那么，我们该如何融入呢？在我放你走之前，你有什么主线或建议想留给设计师们吗？

World, I think now that it opens up more possibilities for those things to happen. Well, how do we include? Here is there a through line or piece of advice or something that you want to leave designers with before I let you go?

是的，我认为我们不是正在进入——我们已经进入了这个全面转型的阶段，体现在很多方面。但我觉得有一件事不会改变：那就是对你面前的可能性保持好奇。我们知道我们的生活将改变，我们的职业将改变，工作将以不同的方式改变，事物将被增强，事物将进入不同的流程。但归根结底，对于创意人士，特别是对于设计师来说，不会改变的是，他们需要解决方案，而这些方案在某些情况下需要有人去实施。我相信，保持好奇并去理解——即使不是精通——是的，让自己尽可能多地接触正在发生的一切，即使它是新的或你不理解。我喜欢对我团队里的设计师说，他们应该参与我们内部的一些活动，比如论文阅读，有时这些内容非常技术性。但我认为这些东西会在你心中建立知识，当你在项目中思考解决方案时，你可以应用这些知识。所以，是的，尽可能多地接触事物，即使你不理解它们——我认为这可能是这个时代你能给出的最好建议。

Yeah, I think we're not entering—we already entered this phase of a whole transformation in many different ways. But I think there is one thing that will not change: that is being curious about the possibilities that are ahead of you. I think we know that our lives are going to change, our professions are going to change, work is going to change in different ways, and things are going to get augmented, things are going to enter into different processes. But I think at the end, what will not change for creatives, and more specific in this case for designers, is that they will require solutions that someone needs to, in some cases, implement. And I believe that keeping being curious and understanding—even not mastering—yes, like exposing yourself to understand as much as you can from everything that is happening, even if it's new or you don't understand. I like to say to my team here, the designers, that they should join things that we have internally like paper readings, which sometimes are very technical. But I think those things build knowledge in you that you can apply when you're thinking in a solution in a project. And I think yes, being exposed to as many things as you can, even if you don't understand them—I think that's probably the best piece of advice you could possibly give in this age.

所以谢谢你，Alejandro，来分享一些幕后的故事，以及你的工作方式，还有你如何以各种方式推动现状。这真的非常令人兴奋，我为你们所有人加油。再次感谢。

So thank you, Alejandro, for coming on and giving a little bit of behind the scenes of the story and how you work and all the different ways that you're kind of just pushing on the way that things have been. It's really, really exciting to see, and I'm rooting for you all. Thanks again.

太棒了，谢谢你邀请我。

Awesome, thank you for having me.