与 Adam Ward 一起打造精英高密度人才团队

你以打造最精英的高人才密度团队而闻名。让我们从人们常犯的错误开始，也就是你所说的“厄运漏斗”。

You have built and are known as someone that can build the most elite high talent density teams. Let's start with how people do it wrong, something you call the funnel of doom.

公司把招聘想成一个漏斗：我要联系 100 个人，其中 20% 会申请。但按定义，那并不是顶尖的 20%，那只是你在他们状态不佳时碰巧遇到的 20 个人。我们招聘的方式通常是在每个阶段淘汰一些人，然后雇佣剩下的人。但你应该想：世界上有 50 个人能做这件事，让我们去找那 50 个人，然后坚持不懈地追求，把精力集中在激活这些人上，而不是试图从“厄运漏斗”里把他们找出来。大多数公司犯的错误是问：“嘿，Lenny，你认识的最好的产品工程师是谁？”这是你能问出的最糟糕的问题。更好的问法是：“嘿，Lenny，在你合作过的所有产品工程师中，谁是你觉得与设计师协作最好的？或者谁比任何人都更能把框架转化为产品？”

Companies think about recruiting like a funnel. I'm going to reach out to 100 people. 20% of those will apply. By definition, that is not the top 20%. That is just the 20 people who you caught on a bad day. The way we all recruit is we kind of weed people out at each stage and we hire the remainder. In your mind, they're okay, there are 50 people in the world who can do this. Let's go find those 50 people and you relentlessly pursue and you focus your energy on activating those people, not trying to find them out of the funnel of doom. The mistake that most companies make is they'll say, "Hey Lenny, who's the best product engineer you know?" That is the worst question you can ask. The better question to ask is, "Hey Lenny, of all the product engineers you've worked with, who stands out to you as the person who's most collaborative with designers? Or who can translate a framework into a product better than anyone you've ever seen?"

当你寻找第一位招聘专员时，你觉得有什么重要的特质需要关注吗？

When you're looking for that first recruiting hire, is there anything you think is important to look for?

招聘专员在 90% 到 110% 的工作负荷下表现出色，但超出这个范围就很糟糕。如果他们只有一半的职位需求，他们几乎没什么用。但他们非常擅长那种肾上腺素飙升的忙碌状态。你要找的就是这样的人。

Recruiters are excellent at 90 to 110% capacity and are terrible outside of that. If they only have half a req load, they kind of like are useless. But they're kind of great at this like edge of adrenaline rush busy. You want to find those people.

关于打造优秀团队、让员工长期为你工作，你学到了哪些经验？

What are some things you've learned about building incredible teams, keeping people working for you over the long term?

当你查看候选人满意度评分时，排名第一的总是……

When you look at candidate satisfaction scores, the number one thing that's always there

今天我的嘉宾是 Adam Ward。Adam 在硅谷以打造精英高人才密度团队方面最有效的招聘领导者而闻名。他联合创立了一家独立招聘公司 Growth by Design，去年被 Cursor 全资收购，这并不常见，也证明了他和他的团队有多优秀，以及人才在当今市场的重要性。Adam 现在是 Cursor 的人才主管，帮助他们扩展并打造世界上人才密度最高的团队之一。在创立自己的公司之前，Adam 在 Pinterest 领导全球招聘，将公司从 200 人扩展到 2000 多人。在此之前，他在 Facebook 领导了一个由 65 名招聘人员组成的全球团队，分布在 10 个办公室，帮助 Facebook 的技术组织从 1000 人扩展到 10000 多人。如果招聘最优秀的人是你的首要任务（理应如此），这次对话将开阔你的眼界，让你了解如何做到这一点。Adam 的分享非常务实且具体，你会感谢我邀请 Adam 来这个播客分享所有这些令人难以置信的建议。非常感谢 Bree Wolfson、Janet Fishberg、Jill Macre、Mike Joiner 和 Tim Kendall 为这次对话提供了话题和问题。在我们开始之前，别忘了访问 lennysproductpast.com，免费获得一年全球最热门、设计最精美的 AI 产品，仅限 Lenny 的 newsletter 订阅者。接下来，有请 Adam Ward。Adam，非常感谢你的到来，欢迎来到播客。

Today my guest is Adam Ward. Adam is known in the Valley as the most effective recruiting leader at building elite high talent density teams. He co-founded an independent recruiting firm called Growth by Design, which Cursor acquired fully last year, which is not something that you often hear and is a testament to how good he and his team are and how important talent is right now in today's market. Adam is now head of talent at Cursor, helping them scale and build one of the most talent dense teams in the world. Prior to starting his own firm, Adam led global recruiting at Pinterest, growing the company from 200 to over 2,000 employees. And before that, he led a global team of 65 recruiters across 10 offices at Facebook, helping them scale Facebook's tech org from 1,000 to over 10,000 employees. If hiring the best people is your number one priority, as it should be, this conversation will open your mind up to what it takes to do that. Adam gets super tactical and extremely specific, and you're going to thank me for inviting Adam on this podcast to share all of this incredible advice. A huge thank you to Bree Wolfson, Janet Fishberg, Jill Macre, Mike Joiner, and Tim Kendall for suggesting topics and questions for this conversation. Before we get into it, don't forget to check out lennysproductpast.com for a free year of the hottest and most beautifully crafted AI products in the world, available exclusively to Lenny's newsletter subscribers. With that, I bring you Adam Ward. Adam, thank you so much for being here. Welcome to the podcast.

非常感谢你的邀请，这是我的荣幸。

Thanks so much for having me. It's a pleasure.

你做招聘、招人、组建团队已经 20 年了。今天的市场有多不同？现在的招聘市场有多疯狂？

You've been doing this for 20 years now, hiring, recruiting, building teams. How different is the market we're in today? How crazy is the hiring market we're in today?

如果有一个刻度，那现在是 11。但你知道，我认为这与我们过去经历的一些市场有相似之处。你提到那些年，比如有一段时间很多公司都在转向移动端。当时真的没有移动工程师，iOS 工程师根本不存在。但那时大家都在争抢人才来开发移动应用之类的。那个时刻确实存在，而且与那个市场和时刻有一些相似之处。我认为真正的区别在于，现在一切都压缩得太快了。移动端那个时刻可能持续了两年，当时没有移动工程师，然后出现了移动训练营、移动工程师训练营等等。而现在，我们是以天、以周来计算的，没有月或年的衡量单位。这就是为什么感觉非常不同。

If there's a scale, it's an 11. But, you know, I do think there are similarities to some other markets we've been in over time. You know, you mentioned that the years like there was a moment in time where a lot of companies were moving to mobile. And there was like there literally was not a mobile engineer, like an iOS engineer was not a thing. You know, and so but there was a scramble for talent to, you know, build your mobile app and things like that. Like there there was this moment that like that was a thing and it has like some similarities to that market and moment. I think that the really the difference here is like everything here is like just so compressed. So, that mobile moment was two years, maybe. You know, where like there was no mobile engineers and then there were like mobile boot camp, mobile engineer boot camps, all these things. You know, like now we're in like days. We're in weeks, you know, there there are no months or year measures right now. And so that what makes this like feel very different.

这个市场另一个非常不同的地方是，有很多人做得非常好。正如你所说，对于特定职位，竞争是最激烈的，达到了 11 分（满分 10 分）。而其他很多人则非常挣扎，很难找到工作。

The other thing that feels very different about this market is there's many people doing extremely well. It's the most competitive, as you said, 11 out of 10 for specific roles. A lot of other people are just really struggling, having a really hard time finding jobs.

是的，这真的是两个世界的故事。你可以看到连续的头条新闻，一边是给新毕业博士的 NBA 级别薪水，另一边是蓝筹公司裁员 10%。这两件事怎么可能同时为真？你会看到公司如何开展工作、如何完成工作的转变。我真的相信我们正处在一个人才、劳动力和工作方式重新洗牌的时期。我坚信会有重新洗牌和转变，这种情况会恢复，但我觉得我们现在正处于这两个世界差距最大的时期之一，我相信并且愿意相信它们会重新靠近。

Yeah, it's a tale of two cities, really. You can read back-to-back headlines of, you know, NBA salary offers to a new grad PhD and the next line being a blue-chip company laying off 10% of workforce. You know, like how can both of these things be true? And you see this shift of how companies are doing work and getting work done. And I really believe we're in this like moment where there's this like resettlement of talent and labor and how work gets done. And I really believe that there will be a resettlement and there will be a shift and this will come back, but I feel like we're in one of the largest gaps of those worlds right now that I believe will and I want to believe will come back closer together.

本期节目由本季赞助商 WorkOS 呈现。OpenAI、Anthropic、Cursor、Replit、Sierra、Clay 以及数百家其他成功公司有什么共同点？它们都由 WorkOS 提供支持。如果你正在为企业构建产品，你一定体会过集成单点登录、SCIM、RBAC、审计日志等大公司所需功能的痛苦。WorkOS 将这些交易障碍转化为即插即用的 API，并提供了一个专为 B2B SaaS 打造的现代开发者平台。事实上，我投资的每一家开始向上拓展市场的初创公司最终都会使用 WorkOS。这是因为他们是最好的。无论你是试图赢得第一个企业客户的种子期初创公司，还是正在全球扩张的独角兽，WorkOS 都是实现企业就绪和释放增长的最快路径。它本质上就是企业功能的 Stripe。访问 workos.com 开始使用，或者直接加入他们的 Slack，那里有真正的工程师在等待回答你的问题。WorkOS 让你通过愉悦的 API、全面的文档和流畅的开发者体验更快地构建。今天就访问 workos.com，让你的应用实现企业就绪。

This episode is brought to you by our season's presenting sponsor WorkOS. What do OpenAI, Anthropic, Cursor, Replit, Sierra, Clay, and hundreds of other winning companies all have in common? They are all powered by WorkOS. If you're building a product for the enterprise, you've felt the pain of integrating single sign-on, SCIM, RBAC, audit logs, and other features required by large companies. WorkOS turns those deal blockers into drop-in APIs with a modern developer platform built specifically for B2B SaaS. Literally every startup that I'm an investor in that starts to expand upmarket ends up working with WorkOS. And that's because they are the best. Whether you are seed-stage startup trying to land your first enterprise customer or a unicorn expanding globally, WorkOS is the fastest path to becoming enterprise ready and unblocking growth. It's essentially Stripe for enterprise features. Visit workos.com to get started or just hit up their Slack where they have actual engineers waiting to answer your questions. WorkOS allows you to build faster with delightful APIs, comprehensive docs, and a smooth developer experience. Go to workos.com to make your app enterprise ready today.

现在哪些岗位的需求在上升、最抢手？哪些岗位的需求在下降？你有一个非常独特的视角，因为你现在在 Cursor，但之前你经营过自己的独立机构，和很多不同的公司合作过。所以你能看到很多不同的地方。哪些在上升？哪些最抢手？哪些现在变软了？

What are roles that are kind of trending up in the most in demand right now? And what are maybe less and less in demand? And you have a really unique perspective because not only you're a cursor now, but before that you had your own independent agency working with a ton of different companies. So, you got to see across a lot of different places. What's kind of trending up? What's most in demand and what's maybe softer now?

是的，我觉得有一个岗位非常抢手，它有很多不同的名字，但就是那种「前向部署工程师」（forward deployed engineer），也就是那种技术人员，能和销售团队合作、能和客户合作，去部署一个——你知道，对某些公司里的某些受众来说——可能非常技术化、甚至让人望而生畏的产品，或者帮助公司思考如何从「token 最大化」转向「优化」。所以，我觉得这是一个新技能，尤其是当 CFO 开始收到账单的时候。你知道，那些公司能够帮助客户一起思考什么是最适合他们的解决方案。所以这是一个非常独特的技能，因为你本身技术很深，你理解产品，但你也能走进满是高管和领导的房间，帮他们把那些东西「变位」一下，甚至帮他们部署到他们的员工队伍中去。我觉得这现在是一个真正的供需问题。我觉得可能正在衰退的，是那种专门化的技术人员。那种人——你知道，因为我觉得你几乎能看到工程师、产品、设计在某种程度上被挤压在一起，我们会喜欢一个设计师，他实际上能更像一个「设计工程师」，对吧？我们也想要那种技术极深、产品感更强的工程师。所以你会看到那种情况。所以我觉得那些可能非常窄、非常深、在某种程度上过度专门化的人正在衰退，同样地，还有那些刚毕业、没有足够经验去做这些事的新人，因为像 Cursor 这样的产品或其他产品现在就能做一部分那种工作。

Yeah, I think one thing is really in demand is this and there's lots of different names for it, but this like forward deployed engineer, this like technical person who can partner with a sales team and partner with a customer to deploy what is a, you know, can be for like some audiences in a company a very technical and maybe overwhelming product or helping companies think about moving from token maxing to like optimizing, maxing to optimizing. And so, that's like a I think a new skill as CFOs start to get the bill coming in. Um, you know, the companies are able to help partner with them to think about what's the the best solution for them. So, that's a really unique skill because you are you're deeply technical yourself. You understand the product, but you can also walk into a room with executives and leaders and help conjugate some of that and then even deploy that help them deploy that into their workforce. I think that's like a a real supply demand issue right now. I think maybe the thing that is waning, I would say, is like the specialized technical person. The person who is I you know, it's cuz I think you almost see this like squeezing together of engineer product design in some ways where we would love a designer who can actually do for be more of like a design engineer, right? And we want that like super deep technical engineer that has a little bit more stronger product sense. And so you kind of see that So I think the people who are maybe like very narrow, very deep, and like overly um specialized in a way are waning like in like in the same way along that vein might also be like the new grad who just hasn't had enough like experience uh to be able to do that where a a product like Cursor or others can do some of that work right now.

这非常有意思。我以前没听过这种说法。有意思的是，FDE 这个角色，感觉和你之前分享的移动端例子很像，真正做过前向部署工程师的人并不多。那么，什么样的人能成为 FDE 呢？

This is extremely interesting. I haven't heard it put this way before. Interestingly with the FDE role, it feels similar to the mobile example you shared where not very few people have actually been forward deployed engineers. Uh so what what's kind of the the um I don't know the look of a person that can become an FDE?

是的，我实际上觉得就是那种工程师，那种可能在三到五年前是「全栈工程师」的人，现在可能实际上就是那个「前向部署工程师」，对吧？所以，你如果和这些人聊聊，他们实际上很喜欢，这有点像解锁了他们内心的某种东西。他们有点像从终端里走出来，走进公司，你知道，走进客户和客户那边。对合适的人来说，这超级有活力，有点像开启了他们职业生涯的另一个篇章，或者可能是一个意想不到的篇章。

Yeah, I actually think it is that engineer it is that person who maybe was like a full stack engineer in like a three to five years ago is now maybe actually that forward deployed engineer, right? And so uh and you you kind of you talk to some of the these folks and they actually like it like kind of unlocks something in them. Like they're kind of like moving out of the terminal and moving in into like the company, you know, and into the customers and clients. And for the right person that like that's super energizing kind of unlocks another chapter or like an maybe a unexpected chapter in their career.

这很有意思。我本来以为你会说 AI 研究员，这很有意思。而且想象一下，因为这类岗位没有那么多。

That is interesting. I was expecting you to say AI researchers said this is interesting. And imagine cuz there's not as many of those roles.

我觉得是这样。我觉得那是一个非常明确的集合。

I think so. I think I think it's just a that's a very defined set.

嗯。

Mhm.

所以，你有一个非常清晰的框架，知道那是什么、有多少、在哪里。而且我觉得，有时候更大的挑战是那些模糊的东西，或者那些非常新的东西，我觉得它们有时和 AI 或 ML 工程师的稀缺性一样有挑战性。

And so like you got like it's a very clear bracket of what that is and how many there are and where they are. And I think this like I I think that sometimes the bigger challenges are the nebulous things or the new the very new things uh that I think are sometimes just as challenging as the scarcity ones of an AI or ML engineer.

沿着这条线问最后一个问题，那核心的产品设计工程岗位呢？它们是像以前一样稳定吗？是增加还是减少？情况怎么样？

Just as a final question along these lines, what about just uh the core product design engineering roles? Are those kind of steady as they've been? Is one increasing, decreasing? How's that looking?

我觉得它们很高，但我觉得你可能看到很多关于这个的讨论，你知道，我觉得我们在以一种好的方式回到「手艺」上。所以如果你想想 AI 在设计领域能做什么，它也能以它自己的方式制造很多「垃圾」。所以我是个乐观主义者。你可能会在整个过程中听到这一点。

I think they're high I think they're but I think there's you probably see a lot of conversation out there around this, you know, where I think we're getting a little bit back in a good way to the craft of things. And so if you think about what AI can do in the design world, uh it can also create a lot of slop in its own way. And so I'm an optimist. Just off you'll you'll probably hear that throughout.

我也是。

Same.

而且我觉得这是一种更好的生活方式。但我希望它能帮助我们回到我们工作的「手艺」上。你知道，也许是对它的一种欣赏。我在设计界也看到了这一点。

And and I think and I think it's just a a better way to live. Um but I think what I will hopefully help us get back is to like to to the craft of what we do. You know, and maybe a an appreciation for it. And I see that in the design world too.

那么，这是不是说「独立贡献者」（IC）更抢手，尤其是那些有良好品味、良好判断力的 IC？这是核心吗？

And is that kind of in saying ICs are more in demand and especially ICs that are have good taste, good judgment? Is that kind of the core?

是的，我觉得你知道，我们在过去大概 12 年里看到了「强力 IC」的崛起。

Yeah, I think like you know, we've seen this for maybe the last 12 or the rise of the power IC.

嗯。

Yeah.

嗯，而且对那种工作的认可和欣赏，我觉得对他们来说几乎是一个「圆满」的时刻。但我觉得品味、决策、解决问题，这些特质，好奇心，嗯，在所有好的方面，我觉得都在重新浮出水面。

Um and uh the recognition and appreciation for that work I think has like come like almost in in a full circle moment for them. But like I think taste, decision-making, problem-solving, these these characteristics, curiosity, um in all the good ways I think are coming back up to the surface.

太棒了。好的。那么让我稍微拉远一点，来框定一下我希望我们大致进行的对话。你建立并被称为能够打造最精英、最高人才密度团队的人。很多人一直告诉我，你是做得比任何人都好的人。这是每个公司和创始人的梦想。打造最高人才密度的团队。所以我会按顺序来。我们先从你称之为「厄运漏斗」的招聘开始。谈谈「厄运漏斗」。什么是「厄运漏斗」？

Awesome. Okay. So let me let me kind of zoom out and frame the conversation that uh I'm hoping we have uh broadly. You have built and are known as someone that can build the most elite high talent density teams. So many people kept telling me you were the person that does this better than anyone else. This is every company's and founders dream. Build the highest talent talent density team. So I'm going to go through this in a sequence. Uh let's start with something you call the funnel of doom hiring. Talk about the funnel of doom. What is the funnel of doom?

是的。这个概念是我在 1998 年作为实习生时第一次认识到的，当时在一家叫 Trilogy 的公司，那是一家在招聘方面有点「臭名昭著」的公司，也是我学这门手艺的地方。我的第一位经理 Jeff Daniel，我们做了一次全国校园巡讲，和计算机系的学生交流，那是我第一次听到这个词。他创造了这个词，所以我必须承认这一点。但我觉得，嗯，这个漏斗几乎永远存在，几乎永远，因为当你回顾招聘历史时，公司把招聘看作一个漏斗。你知道，可能类似于销售漏斗。对吧？他们考虑不同的阶段、通过率等等。当你想到过去几十年大多数公司是如何招聘的，候选人实际上来自三个「桶」。他们可能主动申请，可能被激活或搜寻，或者被推荐。但如果你想想，对于很多考虑人才密度的公司来说，推荐和搜寻或激活被动候选人，实际上才是重点。

Yeah. And this is a concept I got to um uh recognize my very first as an intern actually in 1998 at a company called Trilogy which is a somewhat of an infamous company around recruiting and it's kind of where I learned the trade. Uh my very first manager Jeff Daniel uh he we did this campus tour around the country talking to CS students and that's where I first heard the term. He coined that term so I had to acknowledge that. But I think uh well the funnel did forever uh almost forever as you think about the recruiting history companies think about recruiting like a like a funnel. You know, maybe akin to a sales funnel. Right? Where they think about different stages, pass through rates and things like that. And when you think about how most companies have recruited over these last several decades it's really been candidates come from kind of three buckets. They could they apply, they are activated or sourced or they're referred. But if you kind of think about like for a lot of companies who think about talent density typically referrals and sourcing or activation of passive talent is is is really the focus.

而且当你进一步缩小范围，比如说到人才来源，大多数公司都是这么想的。我会联系 100 个人，大概有 20 个人会回复，就取个整数。所以回复率是 20%。这 20% 按定义并不是顶尖的 20%，只是那 20 个在你运气好、他们运气差的时候被你撞上的人。所以，你一开始就选了一个次优的集合，你并不是从顶尖的 20% 开始的。然后我们招聘的方式都是每轮筛掉一些人，最后雇佣剩下的。所以，这种“剩余者招聘”就是“厄运漏斗”的输出。你把这个说出来的时候，你会觉得，这有点不对劲。如果我想长期打造一家人才密集的公司，这真的是最好的方法吗？还是说，假设我的面试流程和卫生习惯都很好，长期来看这只会让我略高于平均水平？随着规模扩大，你会逐渐回归均值。所以，我们换一种方式思考：如果你一开始就对谁是顶尖 20% 有把握，然后用你的评估流程去验证这个判断，那似乎更好。所以，有“厄运漏斗”，但在“厄运漏斗”里有一根“卓越之柱”。如果你从“卓越之柱”开始，而不是从宽泛的漏斗开始呢？因为想象一下，基于剩余者招聘的成本有多高，你最后雇的是掉到最底下的人。

And when you kind of even narrow further on this like source talent this is how most companies think about it. I am going to reach out to 100 people. 20 people will reply just for round numbers. So 20% of those will reply. By definition that is not the top 20% that is just the 20 people who you caught on a bad day for them. Good day for you, bad day for them. And so, you're starting with a sub-optimal set. You're not starting with the top 20% even if this and then the way we all recruit is we kind of weed people out at each stage and we hire the remainder. So, this remainder hiring is the output of the funnel of doom. And you say when you say that out loud, you're like, that's kind of messed up. If I think about building a talent-dense company over time is that really the best approach? Or does that kind of get me like just above average over time assuming I have really good interview process and hygiene and all these things? You kind of regress to the mean over time as you get to volume. And so, I we just think about this in a different way is like, what if you had confidence up front of who the top 20% was and then you use your assessment process to validate that thesis of who those are. That seems like a better you know, so there's this funnel doom, but there's like within a funnel doom this is a pillar of excellence. What if you started with the pillar of excellence and went from there versus having this wide funnel? Cuz imagine how expensive that is to do remainder-based hiring and you kind of hire the person who drops to the bottom.

嗯，我很喜欢这个，尤其是听到这个。这就像招聘一直以来的方式，听你这么一描述，很明显这不是最优的。为什么这从来没有改变过呢？

Uh I love this especially hearing this. Like this is how hiring has been forever and just hear you describe it, it's clear this is not optimal. Why hasn't this changed uh ever?

嗯，把它比作销售漏斗是有害的。因为在销售漏斗中，你作为销售人员通常是在卖一个产品、一个软件、一个物品。这些东西相对静态且理性。而在招聘中，你有一个非理性的招聘经理和招聘人员，以及另一个理性的候选人。所以，认为事情是交易性的、线性的、以同样的方式通过，我认为这有点谬误。但是，销售已经存在了几百年？一百年？你知道，很长时间了。招聘作为一门手艺，或者说这种形式，大概只有 50 年？40 年？你知道，所以我们在这方面落后了，但作为人类，我们经常试图把一个问题和另一个我们熟悉的问题联系起来。所以，我认为这种与销售的关联对公司来说是有害的，当它们考虑以更战略性的方式来做这件事时。

There is a um something detrimental about comparing it to a sales funnel. Because in a sales funnel we're you know, as a sales person you're typically selling a widget a piece of a software, an item. Those things are relatively static and rational. In recruiting, you have an irrational unit of a hiring manager and recruiter and and in another rational unit of a candidate. And so, to believe that things are transactional and linear and passed through in the same ways, I think is a bit of a fallacy. But, sales has been around for hundreds of years? Hundred you know, a long time. Recruiting as a craft or in the kind of this is like 50 years? 40 years? You know, so we're behind on it, but like as humans, we often try to relate a problem to another problem that we know. And so, I think this connectedness to sales has been somewhat detrimental to companies as they think about doing this in a more strategic way.

那么，让我们顺着这条线，把你说的事情讲清楚。我听到你描述的方式是，你把每一次招聘都当作高管招聘来对待，目标是找到世界上顶尖的 1% 的人，而不是那些在漏斗里掉下来的人。多谈谈这种思考方式吧。

So, let's follow this thread and help make it very clear what you're describing here. The way I've heard you describe this is you treat every hire as an executive recruiting sort of hire uh and the goal is to go for the top 1% of people out in the world versus kind of who you kind of drops in the funnel. Talk more about just that kind of way of thinking about it.

所以，如果你曾经做过高级专家招聘或领导职位，并且做得很好，大致有三个主要步骤。第一步是界定范围。所以，如果你想追求那 1% 的人，最重要的步骤是明确那 1% 对你意味着什么。如果你听过这样的话：“我一眼就能看出来，我知道优秀是什么样”，实际上你不会。你不会看到，也不会知道，因为你没有花时间客观地确定优秀是什么样。所以，当你考虑界定范围时，如果我们深入探讨这个基石部分，真正好的界定范围是思考你正在寻找的技能和经验。你对这些进行排序，在与任何候选人交谈之前客观地明确，但它会设定你的整个流程。它设定你的寻源策略，设定你的宣传话术，因为你会问这样的问题：这个角色为什么重要？成功是什么样子？它确实帮助你构思这些。它还帮助你设定评估流程，比如你将评估什么。它帮助你思考如何收尾，比如“为什么这个人，为什么这个角色会在这里产生重大影响？”所以，我认为招聘流程的这一部分投入不足。但在领导力搜索中，这通常被认为是强大的基石。所以，假设你做了很好的界定范围，然后你把它与很好的市场映射、情报和信号结合起来，这些能让你对谁是最优秀的人有信心。所以，当你做领导力搜索时，比如你会想：“好吧，在你心里，世界上有 50 个人能做这件事。让我们去找那 50 个人。”对吧？所以，这种方法，我认为如果你做了很好的界定范围，并明确那是什么样子，你可以大规模地做。然后你拿着那 50 个人的名单，那些目标，你坚持不懈地追求，把你的精力集中在激活这些人上，而不是试图从“厄运漏斗”里找到他们。嗯，你知道，大量的人群。

So, if you've ever worked on like a senior specialist hire or leadership role done well, here's there's roughly like three main steps. One is scoping. And so, if you think about going after the 1%, the most important step is getting really clear on what 1% means to you. And so, if you've ever heard that phrase like I will I'll I'll know what if I'll know it when I see it, I'll know what great looks like, you actually you won't. You won't see You won't know cuz you haven't spent like the time objectively identifying what that what great looks like. And so, when you think about scoping, if we can just dive into that the cornerstone piece, really good scoping is thinking about um what are like the skills and experiences you're looking for. You stack rank these things, you get really clear objectively before you talk to any candidate, but it sets up your entire process. It sets up your sourcing strategy. It sets up your pitch for them cuz you're asking questions like um why is this role important? What would success look like? It you know, it really helps you craft those things. It also helps you set up your assessment process of like what you're going to be assessing against. It helps you think about kind of that close of like, "Why this person and why this role is going to have big impact here?" So, it really that I think piece of the hiring process is under invested in. But in a leadership search, that is often like known to be a a really strong cornerstone. So, let's say you take like this like really good scoping and then you kind of you pair it with really good market mapping, intelligence, and signals that to give you confidence of who the very best people are. So, when you're doing a leadership search, for example, you're like, "Okay, there's really in your mind like, hey, there are 50 people in the world who can do this. Let's go find those 50 people." Right? And so, that kind of that approach, I think you can do at scale if you do that really good scoping and get really clear on what that looks like. And then you take that that like list of 50 people, those targets, and you relentlessly pursue and you focus your energy on activating those people, not trying to find them out of the funnel of doom. Um, hi you know, large population.

太棒了。嗯，我想每个听到这里的人都会说：“我们需要 Adam 尽快加入我们的团队。”嗯，不幸的是，你被公司锁定了，所以我们会尽力在这次对话中提取尽可能多的智慧，因为你有工作。所以，这很棒。那么，你刚才讲的三个步骤，如何从这个角度处理招聘，就像高管招聘的方式。这个追求顶尖 1% 的想法。所以，第一步是明确顶尖百分比是什么样子。所以，为了复述你刚才分享的，明确你需要的技能，并进行排序，这是我们需要他们的技能。这个人，我们在寻找什么经验，并排序。谈谈为什么这个角色有影响力，为什么这如此重要。还有什么其他的可以补充吗？

Amazing. Uh, I imagine everyone listening to this is going to be like, "We need Adam on our team ASAP." Uh, unfortunately, you're locked in at a company and so we're going to do our best to try to extract as much wisdom as we can in this conversation because you're uh, you have a job. So, this is great. So, kind of the three steps here that you walked through of how to approach hiring from this perspective, the way that executives are hired. This idea of going after top 1%. So, step one was be very clear on what top percent looks like. So, just to kind of mirror back what you just shared, be clear on the skills you need and kind of stack rank, here's the skills we need from them. This person, what experiences we're looking for and stack rank that. Talk about why this role is impactful and just why this is so important. Is there anything else there just to flesh that up?

这些是大概的类别。每个公司都会有其他真正重要的具体事项。但是，是的，这些就是那些事情。记住，这些都是你不会问“他们来自哪家公司”的事情。这些是客观的、某种程度上可转移的东西。而不是试图借用别人的流程或对优秀的定义。因为我们刚刚说过，几乎每家公司都在做错，或者有公司做“厄运漏斗”。所以，我们为什么要模仿或映射一个我们觉得可能不完美的流程呢？嗯，你的公司不同，你的产品不同。

I I those are the general buckets. Like every company will have other specific things that really matter. But, yeah, those would be Yeah, those would be the things And remember, those are all those are these are things you're not asking are what companies are they from? Uh these are the kind of these are These are objective, somewhat transferable things. Versus trying to piggyback off of someone else's process or definition of great. Cuz we just said almost every company's doing this wrong or has company doing funnel of doom. So, why would we mirror or map someone else's process that we feel like like maybe wasn't perfect? Um and your company is different, your product is different.

所以，你有责任为自己明确：对你来说，优秀是什么样的，谁能在这个岗位和产品上成功，而不是看别人在某个你未必完全信任的流程里是怎么成功的。

And so, you owe it to yourself to identify what great looks like for you and who's going to be successful in this role and product, versus what was successful for someone else in a process that maybe you don't have full confidence in anyway.

所以，你是在说，具体来说，不要关注简历上的公司标志，那是个陷阱。

So, you're saying specifically don't focus on, and it's a trap to focus on, the logos on the resume.

我觉得是这样。是的。显然有些公司的某个时期，你会想：“嘿，这家公司这个团队在那个时间点做了很棒的事。”也许因为那个人当时在那个团队，所以他们是优秀的。也许是。那可以作为一种简化的判断。但大多数公司几乎立刻就会跳到那个结论。

I think so. Yeah. There are clearly vintages of companies where you think, "Hey, this team at this company at this time did fantastic things." And possibly because that person was on that team at that company at that time, they are great. Possibly. That can be shorthand. But most companies jump to that almost immediately.

太棒了。好的。第二步是梳理并找到前 50 名候选人。有什么工具能帮你做到这一点？是像 LinkedIn 那样的吗？还是别的什么？

Awesome. Okay. Step two is mapping out and finding basically the top 50. What are tools that help you do that? Is it like LinkedIn? Is it something else?

我认为是多种方式的结合。但我觉得我们通常的起点是一群我们信任、在人才品味上很高的人。但我觉得错误在于——这是个显而易见的点——大多数公司犯的错误是他们会问：“嘿，Lenny，你认识的最好的产品工程师是谁？”这是你能问出的最糟糕的问题。更好的问法是：“嘿，Lenny，在你合作过的所有产品工程师中，谁是你觉得最能与设计师协作的人？或者谁比任何人都更能把框架转化为产品？”你必须为你的团队设定这些非常具体的特质、技能或需求，这样你更容易想到合适的人，而不是问“谁是最优秀的人”这种宽泛的问题。

I think it's a combination of things. But I think where we typically start is a set of people who we trust in terms of having high taste in talent. But I think the mistake, and that's an obvious point, but the mistake that most companies make is they'll say, "Hey Lenny, who's the best product engineer you know?" That is the worst question you can ask. The better question to ask is, "Hey Lenny, of all the product engineers you worked with, who stands out to you as the person who's most collaborative with designers? Or who can translate a framework into a product better than anyone you've ever seen?" You have to put these very specific characteristics, skills, or needs for your team, and then it's way easier for you to conjure up people that way than this broad question of who's the best person.

我想这对应了第一步，也就是你梳理技能、经验等的地方。

And I imagine that maps to step one, which is where you map the skills, experience, and all that.

你问的，是回到你在第一步做的基石工作。所以，当你向一群人提出正确的针对性问题时，你实际上开始围绕同一个名字进行三角验证。

You're asking, mapping back to that cornerstone work you did in step one. So, when you ask the right targeted questions to a set of people, you actually start to triangulate around the same names.

嗯。

Mhm.

比如：“啊，Lenny 提到了他们，但 Sally 也提到了。我们把这个人加入目标名单吧。”

Like, "Ah, Lenny mentioned them, but so did Sally. Let's put this person on the target list."

好的，所以这里的策略一部分是，你和你信任的、很棒的、品味可靠的人交谈，问他们这些问题。还有什么能帮你找到世界上这些人？

Okay, so part of the strategy here is you talk to people you trust who are awesome, whose taste you trust, ask them these questions. What else helps you find these people in the world?

所以，如果你想想，让我们提取一组特征。比如：“好的，我们想要的人的特征是真正好奇、系统思考者，等等。”也许两三个特质。然后你思考：“哪些公司在招聘方式上也认同这些特质？”你几乎可以做一个快速的布尔搜索或 AI 字符串搜索，比如：“嘿，看看全球这 100 家公司的所有职位空缺，哪些也提到这些特质很重要？”对吧？所以你有点想：“哦，他们可能从哪些公司学到这些技能，那些公司也认为这些很重要。”然后你开始建立公司名单，这些名单不是你通常有的，但他们也可能出现在那里，但让我们通过我们客观设定的需求来验证。

So, if you think about, let's pull out the set of characteristics. Like, "Okay, the characteristics of someone we want is like really curious, systems thinker, whatever they might be." Maybe two or three things. Then you're thinking about, "What companies also share that approach to how they hire?" And you could literally probably do a quick Boolean or AI string and be like, "Hey, look at all the job openings in the world among these 100 companies, which ones also say these characteristics matter?" Right? So, you kind of think about, "Ooh, where could they have picked up some of these skills, from a company who also said that that matters as well." And so, then you start to build company lists that aren't the normal list you have, but they might show up there too, but let's validate it through the things that we objectively said we wanted for us.

太有意思了。系统思考在我最近做的四期播客中都出现了。这是如今人们越来越看重的一个特质。

It's so interesting. Systems thinking has come up on the last four podcasts I've done. Such a trending up attribute people are looking for these days.

是的，我觉得它一直都有一些，但我觉得在这个时代它被真正凸显出来了。

Yeah, I think it's always been there a little bit, but I think it's just become really accentuated now in this era.

当你听到“系统思考”这个词时，你会怎么描述它实际的含义，当人们听到这个词时？

When you hear the term systems thinking, what's a way you describe what that actually means when people hear that term?

我很早就学到了这一点，可能在我工作的第二家公司。它归结为一个基本问题：我们试图解决什么问题？对吧？所以当我想到系统思考，或者当我坐下来想，我们要解决的根本问题是什么？然后我们如何把这个更大的问题分解成非常小的部分？幸运的是，我一生中大部分时间都在与工程师合作，我真的学到了并钦佩他们如何能把一个非常大的问题分解并开始解决它。只要你能锚定在我们要解决的总体目标上。

I learned this pretty early, maybe in the second company I worked for. And it comes around to a fundamental question of what problem are we trying to solve? Right? And so when I think about systems thinking, or when I'm sitting around, like, what is the fundamental root question problem that we're trying to solve? And then how do we take this larger problem and break it into really small pieces? And I've fortunately been working with engineers most of my life, and I've really learned and admired how they can take something that's really big and break it into kind of start to tackle that problem. As long as you're anchored into what is the overall thing we're trying to solve here.

太棒了，非常有帮助。人们总是听到这些术语，然后他们说，是啊，是啊，我是个很棒的系统思考者。所以听听不同的人说这实际意味着什么总是有帮助的。

Awesome, very helpful. People always hear these terms and they're like, yeah, yeah, I'm a great systems thinker. And so it's always helpful to just hear from different people what that actually means.

你知道，我觉得系统思考听起来很战略，但实际上我认为它极其战术化。最优秀的系统思考者会把这些东西分解成非常小的战术，然后逐个战术地移除问题，移除障碍。

You know, I think systems thinking sounds very strategic, but actually I think it's extremely tactical. The very best systems thinkers take these things and put them into very small tactics and start to remove each, you know, tactic by tactic, remove the problem, remove the blocker.

所以，为了结束关于找到这些杰出人才这一步的话题，我听到的主要是，坐下来，与人交谈，然后在文档里记录，大概就是人们推荐的人，以及值得关注的公司。

So to close the thread on this step of finding these incredible people, what I'm hearing is mostly it's kind of sit around, talk to people, and just jam in a doc probably of here's people that people recommend, here's companies to look at.

是的，有工具，有 LinkedIn，也有所有这些。但我认为最有价值的是最耗时的：你花时间深入挖掘人脉网络。我之前分享过，我团队里有人专门负责挖掘现有员工的网络。你可以自动化这个过程。你可以用 AI 工具，让某个合适的人引导他们完成，但没有什么能比得上你和我每隔一周坐下来，持续 6 周，深入探讨人。你会说：“嘿，上次你给了我三个名字。我查过了。但这个人怎么样？”你说：“哦，是的。他们也很棒。”然后：“哦，那接下来呢？”所以你们来回进行。顺便说一句，我也会督促你发跟进笔记。他们怎么说？哦，他们回复了？你要再发一条吗？所以，这种一对一的、手把手的信号培养，我认为非常重要。当然，这些信号会进入系统和数据库，但提取过程，我认为是一种非常个人化且有效的方法。

Yeah, and there are tools, and there's LinkedIn, there's all these things too. But I think the most valuable one is the most time-intensive one: you spending time digging into people's networks. I've shared this before, but people on my team whose entire job is to dig into our current employees' networks. You could automate that. You could use an AI tool and have some fit walk them through a facilitation of it, but nothing beats you and I sitting down every other week for 6 weeks and diving into people. You're like, "Hey, last session you gave me these three names. I checked them out. But what about this person?" You're like, "Oh, yeah. They were great, too." Like, "Oh, well, what's going to happen?" So, you kind of go back to back. And by the way, I'm also holding you accountable for sending out notes. And what did they say? Oh, they replied? You're going to send another note? And so, this kind of one-to-one, hand-to-hand cultivating of signal, I think it's really important. Of course, those signals go into a system and a database, but the extraction, I think, is a hugely personal and effective approach.

这一切听起来非常耗时、缓慢且工作量大。你怎么看待采用这种方法的权衡，知道它会花费更多时间和精力？

This all sounds very time-intensive and slow and lots of work. How do you talk about that trade-off of taking this approach, knowing that it's going to take a lot more time and effort?

是的。是的。

Yeah. Yeah.

那么，我通常喜欢问一个问题。创始人，在对你重要的所有事情中，人才排在第几位？

So, I mean, I usually like to ask a question. So, founder, like you know, in all the things that are important to you, where does talent fall into that list?

人才是第一位的。人才是最重要的事情。

And like, it's number one. Like, talent is the most important thing.

好的。那么，如果人才是第一位的，那就不是时间或成本的问题。这才是重点所在。所以，如果人才是第一位的，那么在努力、资源或时间上就不应该有任何障碍，因为这对你的成功至关重要。你刚才客观地说了这一点。所以，如果两者不能同时成立，你就不能说：“嘿，这是最重要的事情，我要把它外包出去，或者交给招聘机构去做。”如果这是第一位的，那就是你的焦点。

Okay. So, if talent is the number one thing, then it's not about time or cost. This is where the focus should be. And so, if talent is number one, then there should be no obstacles in terms of effort or resourcing or time put in to get there, because that is paramount to your success. You just said that objectively. And so, you know, if both can't be true, you can't say, "Hey, it's the most important thing and I'm going to outsource it or I'm going to hand it over to a recruiting organization to do." If it's the number one thing, that is your focus.

听到这个，显然是对的。你为什么不这么做呢？

Like hearing that, obviously correct. Why would you not do that?

然后就像，天哪，所有事情总是火烧眉毛。我得为所有这些事情、这些会议腾出时间。那么，你有没有做什么来帮助创始人和团队保持正轨，坚持这个计划，尽管知道这需要大量的工作和时间？

And then there's like, holy, everything's on fire all the time. I have to make time for all this stuff, all these meetings. And it's just like, is there anything you do to help keep a founder and a team on track and just sticking to this plan, knowing it's so much work and time?

是的，我的意思是，通常创始人在最优秀的公司里会让公司保持正轨。而保持正轨的一部分就是让它始终处于首要位置。你知道，还有一句格言：能被衡量的才能被完成。所以如果这是一件重要的事情，我们就会衡量它，就像我们可能衡量正常运行时间、客户满意度或收入一样，并让这些团队负责。我们也让招聘经理、领导者和组织对招聘负责。所以，让它保持首要位置，但围绕奖励、认可等建立正确的系统，会帮助人们把它作为优先事项。但如果你不衡量它，他们就会把它交出去，或者把责任推给别处。

Yeah, I mean, typically the founders are keeping the company on track around that, the very best companies. And part of keeping on track means keeping it top of mind. You know, there's also the adage of what gets measured gets done. So if it's an important thing, we measure it just like we might measure uptime or customer satisfaction or revenue, and we hold those teams accountable. We also hold hiring managers and leaders and organizations accountable to hiring. So keeping it top of mind but putting in the right systems around rewards and recognition and all those things around it will help people keep it as a priority. But if you aren't measuring it, they will hand that over or they will shirk that responsibility to somewhere else.

是的，你的一大痛点是让招聘人员坐着，基本上没有赋予他们权力，而招聘经理也没有深入参与这个过程。

Yeah, one of your big pet peeves is having the recruiters sit, basically not empowering the recruiters and hiring managers not being deeply involved in the process.

是的，我认为很多公司让招聘部门拥有招聘目标。而我还没见过哪家公司是由招聘人员来做招聘决定的。所以这些事情是冲突的。招聘经理、领导者或委员会在做招聘决定。我觉得招聘人员的目标实际上是帮助为招聘经理提供信心，让他们做出正确的决定。他们是信心引擎，不是决策引擎。所以我看到很多公司失去线索的时候，就是他们基本上把招聘的功能、招聘的行为，交给了招聘部门。对吧？所以没有人应该比招聘经理和那个团队更关心一次招聘，没有人比他们更能感受到好招聘或坏招聘的喜悦或痛苦。那么，为什么招聘人员或招聘组织要承担这个责任，而他们实际上没有决策权，更不用说好招聘或坏招聘带来的好处、痛苦或成本了？

Yeah, I think a lot of companies have recruiting own the hiring goal. And I've yet to be in a company where recruiters are making hiring decisions. So these things are in conflict. Hiring managers or leaders or committees are making hiring decisions. And I feel like the recruiter's goal is really about helping provide confidence to that hiring manager to make the right decision. They're a confidence engine. They're not a decision-making engine. And so I see a lot of companies where they lose the thread is when they essentially hand over the function of recruiting, the act of recruiting, to a function of recruiting. Right? And so no one should care more about a hire, no one gets the joy or the pain of a good or bad hire than that hiring manager and that team. So why then is a recruiter or recruiting organization holding that accountability when they actually don't have the decision-making, let alone the benefits or pain or cost of a good or bad hire?

我想回到这个话题。这就像一个不同的漏斗，但我会称之为漏斗。你还会把它描述为漏斗吗，但这是非末日漏斗，或者另一个术语，因为它仍然有点像漏斗？

I want to come back to this. It's like a different funnel, but I'll call it a funnel. Would you still describe it as a funnel, but the funnel of non-dooms or another term, because it's still kind of a funnel?

是的。是的，可能有。不是所有的漏斗都不好，所以是的，它们都很好。

Yeah. Yeah, there could be. They're not all funnels are bad, so yeah, they're all good.

人才密度。

Talent density.

是的。

Yeah.

那么回到如何发现最优秀的人才。幸运的是，有一篇很棒的文章，是 Brie Wolfson 写的关于 Coda 如何做招聘的，这对我准备这次演讲非常有帮助。她分享的另一个 Coda 如何找到最优秀人才的策略是，有一个叫“招聘想法”的 Slack 频道，团队里的人会分享，这是可能想招的人。

So coming back to how to discover the best people. Luckily, there's this incredible post out there about how Coda approaches hiring by Brie Wolfson that was very helpful in helping me prep for this talk. And another tactic that she shared of how Coda finds the best people is there's a Slack channel called hiring ideas, and people on the team just share, here's someone we might want to hire.

它非常活跃。你知道，我们现在就可以把它调出来。有个人我们想……让我们看看大家在说什么。是的，也许我们可以让观众参与进来。所以总的要点是，有人会遇到一些令人印象深刻的东西，一个产品、一篇文章、在烧烤时听到的什么，然后他们就会把那个人的简介或那条 X 帖子放到招聘频道里，然后就会产生一种聚集效应，比如，哦，我听说过他们。我知道怎么联系他们。我觉得什么对他们有吸引力。你几乎会快速制定一个如何接触这个人的策略。想象一下，在一个以这种方式运作的公司工作，人们兴奋、热情，热爱狩猎的快感，想和优秀的人一起工作。所以我们非常幸运能拥有这样持续的顺风。但这就像一个早期的期望，如果你愿意的话。一个早期的……我几乎要说，这几乎是公司里的社会信誉，能够发现一个优秀的人，然后人们进来帮忙，试图让他们进入流程。所以当我们创造这个的时候，那真是太好了……我们不是发起者。我们不会放一个简介说有人认识这个人吗？这是……你知道，公司里非招聘人员会提出想法，然后公司会聚集起来支持。

It's super active. You know, we could pull it up right now. There's someone we want to... let's see what people are... Yeah, maybe we can get some audience input on it. So the general gist is someone will come across something impressive, a product, a post, something overheard at a barbecue, and they'll drop that person's profile or that X post into the hiring channel, and it becomes a rallying effect around, ooh, I've heard of them. I know here's how we can get to them. Here's what I think is compelling to them. You almost create this quick strategy of how we might engage this person. And imagine working at a place where the company is just wired that way, where people are excited and enthusiastic and love the thrill of the hunt and want to work with great people. And so we're just very fortunate to have that as an ongoing tailwind. But that was like an early expectation, if you will. An early... almost like I'm going to say it's almost like social credibility in the company to be able to surface someone who is great, and then people come in and help out and try to get them into the process. So as we're creating that, that's such a good... we are not initiating that. We're not dropping in a profile saying does anyone know this person? This is... and you know, non-recruiting folks in the company dropping in ideas and then the company rallying behind it.

太棒了。所以这只是一个很好的方式……如果我们再拉远一点，大多数公司招聘的方式是，有一个漏斗：人们申请，人们推荐，然后他们通过筛选，然后你尝试联系并筛选，最后在底部挑选几个人。你的观点是，这不是顶尖人才，因为他们不会申请你，他们不会通过漏斗。很多时候你甚至不知道你在招什么。

Amazing. So this is just a really good way to... if we zoom out again, the way most companies hire, there's this funnel: people apply, people refer, and they kind of work through, and then you try to reach out and kind of work through and pick a few people at the bottom. And your point there is this is like not the top people, because they're not going to apply to you, they're not going to make it through the funnel. You don't even know what you're hiring for a lot of times.

对。正确。正确。但你知道，顺便说一句，所有的招聘想法并不总是好主意。它们并不总是适合我们，但这几乎就像是对招聘过程的一次切向注入，往往会产生很好的结果。

Right. Correct. Correct. But you know, by the way, all the hiring ideas aren't always great ideas. They aren't always right for us, but it becomes this almost like tangential injection into the hiring process that is often a great outcome.

所以，为了明确这种方法的与众不同，恰恰相反。它是找出世界上最适合这个角色的前 50 名顶尖人才，然后不懈地追求他们。

And so just to maybe make very clear how different this approach is, is the opposite. It's figure out who are the best top 50 people for this role in the world and then relentlessly pursue them.

嗯。是的。

Mhm. Yeah.

那么让我们谈谈这部分。如何真正不懈地追求人才。有哪些策略和故事，关于你如何说服这些顶尖人才真正与你交谈，然后加入？

So let's talk about that part of it. How to actually relentlessly pursue people. What are some tactics and stories there of just how you convince these top people to actually talk to you and then join?

是的。我认为你几分钟前说的一件事是，嘿，这可能是一个非常缓慢的过程。对吧？如果你处于零点，你的第零天，那可能会感觉像是一个缓慢的……可能会感觉像是一个缓慢的燃烧。

Yeah. And I think one of the things you said a few minutes ago is, well, hey, this can be a very slow process. Right? And if you're at like a zero point, your day zero, that can feel like a slow... It can feel like a slow burn.

但想象一下，在数天的时间里，你实际上是在为潜在的顶尖 50 人播下这些种子。它们会以不同的速度成熟，但你必须播下种子。你必须开始。因为有些人需要几周，有些人需要几个月。我有过花了一年时间跟进候选人的故事。但你必须启动那个时钟。所以我们如何看待这种不懈的追求：你经常会达到，你知道，第一步就是让他们进入对话，得到回复，得到某种互动。但大多数人会告诉你，如果你联系到他们，他们会说时机不好。这里是我不能做的所有理由。然后你会说：“嘿，我不是要你面试。我不是要你考虑一个职位。我只是要下一次对话。”所以当你说：“嘿，你知道，现在对我来说时机不太好，也许晚秋吧。”你会说：“嘿，我完全理解，那很好。但你能不能过来喝杯咖啡，看看办公室？对吧？我能把你介绍给团队里另一位对你的工作非常感兴趣的人吗？你能去聊聊吗？”但所以你知道，这不是，假设他们确实要到晚秋才能加入，那并不意味着你不和他们联系，不每周进行对话，不推进那部分。而且这只会让它向前推进。如果什么都不做，直到晚秋才真正和他们谈，最多你得到他们，即使他们那时仍然感兴趣，或者别人已经把他们抢走了。所以我们考虑这种持续接触的方法，让他们进入流程。但这可能再次，我们愿意在几天、几周、几个月，有时甚至几年里这样做。

But imagine over multiple days, you're actually planting all of these seeds with potential top 50 people. They're going to come to harvest at different rates, but you got to plant the seeds. You got to start. And because it will take weeks for some, months for others. I have stories of years, a year of working on candidates. But you have to start the clock on that. And so how we think about this like relentless pursuit is you'll often reach, you know, one step is just getting them into a conversation, getting a response, getting some kind of engagement. But most people will tell you if you get them, it's like not good timing. Here's all the reasons I can't do it. And you're like, "Hey, I'm not asking you to interview. I'm not asking you to consider a role. I'm asking for a next conversation." And so when you say, "Hey, you know, it's not really a good timing for me right now, maybe in the late fall." You're like, "Hey, so I totally try what's great. Like can, but also, can you come by for a coffee and see the office? Right? Can I introduce you to this other person on the team who's really fascinated by your work? Can you go chat?" But so you know it's not, let's say it is true they can't join till late fall, that doesn't mean you're not connecting them and having conversations on a weekly basis and working that piece. And it can only move it forward. By doing nothing and actually talking to them in the late fall, at best, you get them even if they're still interested then or someone else has grabbed them. So we think about this continual touchpoint approach to getting them into process. But that could again, we're willing to do that over days, weeks, months, and sometimes years.

当你联系某人并提到在 Cursor 工作，现在它是 SpaceX 的一部分。就像，哦，这很有趣很酷。你知道，就像，你永远不知道，也许有一天会成功。很多公司，你也和其他品牌不那么有趣、不那么成功的公司合作过。对于让人们愿意甚至开始交谈，你有什么建议吗？你知道，我想这都很特别，你只想给点建议。

When you reach out to someone and mention working at Cursor, now it's part of SpaceX. It's like, oh, this is interesting and cool. And you know, it's like, you never know, maybe it'll work out someday. A lot of companies, and you've worked with other companies that are not as interesting of a brand and as successful. Is there any advice for folks to get someone over the line to even talk that works? And you know, I imagine it's all very particular and you want to be just any advice there.

是的，我认为这真的是要花很多时间提前了解什么可能对他们有吸引力。所以，可能是谁，可能是什么话题？所以，世界上有很多优秀的人不在任何平台上。没有关于他们的信息。但大多数人你能得到一些线索。我们在这里花很多时间思考谁能给那个人创造一个温暖的介绍。投入的精力几乎和实际的信息传递一样多，因为如果你找对了人，那会加速这个过程。对吧？一旦某人忽略了一件事，他们更容易忽略第二件和第三件。但如果你第一次就做对了，你就压缩了激活的时间线和努力。

Yeah, I think it's really spending a lot of time up front to get a sense of what could be engaging for them. So, who might that be and what might that topic be? And so, there are a number of excellent people in the world who aren't on any platform. There's no information about them. But most you can get a couple nuggets. We spend a lot of time here thinking about who can create a warm intro to that person. Almost as much effort goes into that than it does the actual messaging and the right because if you get the right person, that accelerates it. Right? And once someone's ignored one thing, it's much easier for them to ignore the second and third. But if you get the first one right, you like condense that activation timeline and effort.

我听说你经常说关心是免费的。

I've heard that you often say caring is free.

是的。

Yeah.

谈谈这个，因为感觉这贯穿了整个流程。

Talk about that cuz it feels like that connects throughout this entire process.

是的，我认为有各种不同成本的策略。但比其他公司更关心候选人，比如当我建立招聘团队时，这是我们一直谈论的。就像，我们可以比任何人都更关心那个候选人。那在我们心里。那是我们内在的。我们可以做到。而且我认为，纵观历史，当你查看候选人满意度分数时，始终排在第一位的是公司总体上想要我。他们总体上让我觉得我属于那里。所以，我们越能关心我们的候选人并展示这一点，我认为这是一种不公平的优势，而且我们所有人都具备。所以这是一种努力，是一种额外的步骤。是你采取的额外用心，我认为在一个像招聘这样有点交易性质的业务中，如果你像做一步一步的“厄运漏斗”那样，你会陷入步骤中。你会陷入数字游戏中。我需要联系 100 人才能得到 20 人。我需要有 10 次招聘经理筛选才能有 4 次现场面试。你知道，你陷入数字中，失去了人的因素。你在寻找那一个人。你知道，所以我提醒我的团队，我们是在为这个职位招聘一个人，不是 10 个。所以不要陷入那 10 个。专注于那一个。

Yeah, I think there's all kinds of tactics out there that are of varying degrees of cost. But out caring other companies that like when I've built recruiting teams, that's something that we've always talked about. Like, we can care more about that candidate than anyone else. That's in us. That's within us. We can do that. And I think it hit like over the history of time, when you look at candidate satisfaction scores, the number one thing that's always there is the company generally wanted me. They generally like they made it feel like I belonged there. And so, the more that we can care for our candidates and demonstrate that, I think it's an unfair advantage and it's in all of us. And so it is like an effort and that is an extra step type of thing. It's the extra intentionality that you take that I think in a very somewhat feeling like transactional business like recruiting, if you're doing this like step-by-step funnel of doom, you kind of get caught up in the steps. You get caught up in the numbers game. I need to reach out to 100 to get to 20. I need to have 10 hiring manager screens to get four on-site. You know, you get caught up in the numbers and you lose the human element. You're looking for the one. You know, so I tell remind my team like we're trying to hire one person for this role here, not 10. So don't get caught up in the 10. Get focus on the one.

这是思维方式的一个巨大重构。正如你所说，不是这个漏斗，我们需要顶部 200 人才能得到底部 1 人，你只是说，这里有 50 个人，他们是世界上最适合这个职位的 50 人。我们只需要这 50 人中的一个。感觉可行多了。

That is such a big reframe in this way of thinking. As you said, instead of this funnel of we need 200 people at the top to get one at the bottom, you're just like, here's the 50 people that would be the best 50 in the world for this. We just need one of these 50. It feels a lot more doable.

而且我们正在建立，希望我们正在与几十个其他可能的人建立关系。所以当你谈到这很慢时，我们是在播种。播种，我们在播种。而且我认为当你陷入这种“厄运漏斗”心态时，经常发生的另一件事是，我认为你在招聘方法上变得过于一致。我们非常适应定制和临时的招聘。这并不意味着我们没有类似的考虑阶段。但比如下一次对话是谁，他们可能关注什么。我认为我们在招聘中有时会变得有点机械。而且我们有，所以很多公司当他们进入更高量的招聘时，他们可能会说：“嘿，我们有一批面试官可以做这种类型的面试。”然后他们就让命运决定。他们让可用性决定谁进行下一次对话。但你知道，精明的招聘人员或精明的招聘经理会说：“哦，他们提到了这件事。我们团队中谁在那个池子里有共同的兴趣，对吧？我们能不能更具体一点，通过额外考虑谁可能进行更好的对话，来策划一个更好的候选人体验？”

And we're building hopefully we're building relationships with dozens of other those that could be. So when you talk about this being slow, we're planting seeds. Planting seeds, we're planting seeds. And I think the other thing that often happens when you kind of get into this funnel of doom mentality is I think you become overly consistent in your hiring approach. And we are very comfortable with bespoke and ad hoc hiring. That doesn't mean we don't have like similar stages for consideration. But like who that next conversation is, what they might focus on. I think we get a little robotic sometimes in recruiting with that. And we have like, so a lot of companies as they get into like higher volume hiring, they might like, "Hey, we have a pool of these interviewers who can do this type of interview." And they just like let fate decide. They let availability decide who has that next conversation. But you know, the savvy recruiter or the savvy hiring manager is like, "Ooh, they mentioned this thing. Who on our team has that shared interest in that pool, right? Can we like be a little bit more prescriptive and can we orchestrate a much better candidate experience by taking the extra thoughtful step of who might have a better conversation together?"

听到初始接触对后续流程有多重要，以及这在多大程度上是为了未来的播种，而不是立即的，真是有趣。

It's so interesting hearing just how important that initial contact is for the rest of the process and how much of this is for future seed planting versus even immediately.

是的，我觉得我们把太多精力放在现场面试上，我完全理解，但说实话，最重要的是招聘经理的第一次对话。所以这有点像 50/50，嘿，你与招聘经理交谈的一半人应该加入，而且我们有点，我认为我们低估了它的重要性，因为这就是你将与之共事的人。

Yeah, I feel like so we put so much energy to the onsite interview, which I totally get, but honestly the most important one is that hiring manager first conversation. And so it kind of feels like this like 50/50 like hey, half the people you talk to hire manager should come on and like we kind of like I think we underestimate the importance of it cuz this is like who you're going to work with.

这才是应该在乎的人。这个人要做招聘决定，所以他们应该问最重要的问题，应该从候选人身上挖掘出最重要的动机。我觉得我们有时把它压缩成 30 分钟。通常就是 30 分钟，而且感觉对后续流程至关重要。

This is the person who should care. This person is going to make the hiring decision, so they should be asking the most important questions. They should be pulling out the most important motivators from that candidate. And I feel like we sometimes put it into a 30-minute thing. Often it's like 30 minutes, and it feels so important to the rest of that process.

尤其是当我们不是只需要一个漏斗、过一遍一堆人，而是这是全世界 50 个可能最适合这个岗位的人之一。

Especially if instead of just needing this funnel and working through a bunch of people, this is one of the 50 in the world that could be the best for this.

你可能会见三次，对吧？作为招聘经理，你可能会见四次，然后那个人才算真正进入流程。

You might meet three times, right? You might meet four times as a hiring manager versus before that person actually is fully in process.

Breed 在她的文章里描述的方式是，你把招聘的原子单位当作人，而不是职位描述，也不是岗位。

The way Breed described this in her piece is that you treat hiring as the atomic unit of hiring is the person, not the job spec and not the role.

没错。我觉得这让我的团队非常沮丧，因为你会问：“哦，流程是什么？”然后你会说：“嗯，这就像一棵决策树，根据这次对话可能有很多不同的走向。”但当你没有被卷入数字游戏时，当你真正专注于如何把那个人带到这里，而不是他们是否适合那份工作时，感觉就没那么可怕了。

Correct. And I think that makes it incredibly frustrating, imagine, for my team, because you're like, "Oh, what's the process?" And you're like, "Well, it's like a decision tree. It could go many different ways based off of this conversation." But when you are not caught into the numbers game, it feels a little bit less scary when you're really focused on how do we get that person here versus are they the right person for that job?

而且因为他们在这份名单上，天生就很受欢迎、很抢手。除了你分享的那些温和的暖介绍方式，还有什么其他方法能让他们兴奋地交谈、产生兴趣吗？

And because they're on this list, they're innately very popular and in demand. Is there anything else that works for getting them excited to talk and interested other than the soft warm intro things you shared?

是的，我们用了很多策略来让他们参与。我特别喜欢的一件事就是一起吃饭。和某人共进一餐是最有人情味、最能拉平关系的事情之一。隔着桌子分享一顿饭是一种让人放下戒备、拉近距离的行为。我觉得这非常重要。所以可以是咖啡，可以是午餐，不一定要很正式，但我认为这是一种非常人性化的活动，非常重要。所以我们尽量围绕食物和饮料来安排。

Yeah, I mean, we've done lots of tactics, I think, to get them involved. One thing I just love is breaking bread. Having a meal with someone is one of the most human and leveling things that you can do. Sharing a meal across the table is just a disarming act and a joining act. That I think is just so important. So that could be a coffee, it could be a lunch, it doesn't have to be super formal, but I just think it is this humanizing activity that is really important. So we try to center around food and drink as much as possible.

我觉得我们还做了其他很有用的事情，比如如果他们是这 50 人之一，他们可能有点名气或备受尊敬，他们可能有专长。让他们来给团队做个演讲，让他们来做一个有趣的副项目。他们喜欢分享和学习，而且很好奇。但这同时也展示了两个团队在质量上的互动增强，并让他们对在那里工作有一个现实的预览。

I think we've done other things that are very useful, like if they are one of these 50 people, they might be somewhat famous or well-respected, they probably have an expertise. Having them come in and give a talk to the team. Having them come in and do a fun side project. They love to share and learn, and they're curious. But it also demonstrates increased interactivity between the two teams around quality and gives them a realistic preview of being there.

我们尽量打主场，把他们带进办公室。但我们也理解有些人早期可能想去中立的地方，比如咖啡店。但我们尽量打主场，因为你有团队的力量。我想的一个类比是，当你考虑大学时，你走进校园，心里会有一种感觉。你无法真正描述它，就是那种“哦，这感觉像家”的感觉。我们希望人们走进 Cursive 办公室时也有这种感觉。那是一个无价的时刻，也可能是一个决定性的时刻。也可能没有感觉。早点试探出来也好。但对很多人来说，确实有感觉，我们喜欢那个时刻。

We try to play home games as much as we can, bringing them into the office. But we also understand some folks early on might want to go to a neutral site like a coffee shop. But we try to play home games when we can, because you have the power of the team. One analogy I think about is when you walk onto a campus when considering a university, you get that feel in your gut. You can't really describe it, it's just like, "Ooh, this feels like home." We want people to feel that when they walk into the offices of Cursive. That is a priceless moment. It can also be a defining moment. It also could not hit. And it's good to suss that out early, too. But for a lot of people, it does hit, and we like that moment.

这让我深深想起 Airbnb 早期。我记得 Joe Gebbia 有句话：“只要把他们弄进电梯。”因为办公室在这栋楼的二楼，你必须坐电梯进去，整个策略就是把他们弄进电梯。

This resonates so deeply with early days Airbnb. I remember Joe Gebbia had the saying, "Just get them in the elevator." And this is because the office was on the second floor of this building. You had to go in this elevator to get in, and that was the whole strategy, just get them in the elevator.

是啊，那就赢了一大半了。

Yeah, that was more than half the battle.

说到一起吃饭和主场优势，我知道这可能就是你们在办公室附近开 Cafe Cursor 的原因之一，现在这已经在世界各地发生了。我觉得 Ben 负责这项工作，但世界各地都在冒出这些咖啡馆。

Along these lines of breaking bread and home court, I know this might be one of the reasons you guys have a Cafe Cursor right near the office, and now it's happening all over the world. I think Ben leads this work, but there are all these cafes popping up all over the world.

是的，我觉得这很有趣。显然它非常关注产品和用户，但他和那个团队在把那种氛围融入一个时刻方面做得非常好。如果你去过 Cursor 办公室，几乎感觉就像在霍格沃茨图书馆，非常温暖柔和。但咖啡馆也带来了那种能量。所以我们试图把那种氛围带到世界各地。

Yeah, I think it's been interesting. Obviously it's very much focused on the product and the user, but he and that team have done a really good job of taking that vibe and putting it into a moment. And if you've been in the Cursor office, it almost feels like you're in a Hogwarts library. It's very warm and soft. But cafes bring that energy as well. So we've tried to lift that and drop it in really around the world.

而且办公室里还有很多黑板。

And there's also a lot of chalkboards at the office.

很多黑板。它有一种让人放下戒备的温暖感觉，我觉得这真的散发出我们的中西部氛围。这有时就是我对 Cursor 的描述。非常勤奋，非常有野心，但同时工作本身会说话，也很低调。所以我觉得我们的办公室也有助于唤起这些氛围。

A lot of chalkboards. It has this disarming warm feel that I think really exudes our Midwest vibes. That is sometimes how I describe Cursor. Very hard working, very ambitious, but at the same time the work speaks for itself and understated as well. So I think a lot of our office helps evoke those vibes, too.

本期节目由 Mercury 赞助。深受超过 30 万企业家喜爱的、彻底不同的银行服务。现在还有 Command。我使用 Mercury 已经超过 6 年了，我从未想过离开。Mercury 基本上就是当银行由产品人而非银行家打造时会发生的事情。他们让发送发票、转移资金、为团队成员设置虚拟卡变得如此简单，我敢说是很有趣。你的银行有 API、终端原生 CLI 或 AI 就绪的 MCP 服务器吗？我觉得没有。而就在最近，他们推出了 Command，一个直接内置于 Mercury 的对话式界面，充当你的财务操作员。我一直在用 Command 转账、查看我在哪些类别上花钱最多、分析现金流，而就在今天，我用它查了过去一年我从某个特定赞助商那里赚了多少钱。我只是问：“过去一年我从 X 那里赚了多少？”10 秒后我就得到了答案。这太酷了。访问 mercury.com 了解更多，几分钟内即可在线申请。Mercury 是一家金融科技公司，不是 FDIC 保险银行。银行服务由 Choice Financial Group 和 Column N/A 提供，均为 FDIC 成员。

This episode is brought to you by Mercury. Radically different banking loved by over 300,000 entrepreneurs. And now with Command. I've been a customer of Mercury's for over 6 years. I have never once thought about leaving. Mercury is basically what happens when banking is built by product people, not by bankers. They make it so easy, dare I say fun, to send invoices, move money around, set up virtual cards for folks on my team. Does your bank have an API, a terminal native CLI, or an AI ready MCP server? I don't think so. And just recently they launched Command, a conversational interface built directly into Mercury, which acts as your financial operator. I've been using Command to transfer money around, to figure out what categories I've been spending the most money in, analyze my cash flows, and just today I used it to find out how much I've made from a specific sponsor over the past year. I just asked, "How much have I made from X over the past year?" 10 seconds later I have an answer. It is so freaking cool. Visit mercury.com to learn more and apply online in minutes. Mercury is a fintech company, not an FDIC-insured bank. Banking services provided through Choice Financial Group and Column N/A, members FDIC.

好的，如果大家一直在关注，我们正在逐步推进漏斗。这基本上是我的策略。我们已经讨论了如何确定你要找什么样的人、如何找出这些人是谁、如何让他们愿意和你交谈。

Okay, so if people have been following along, we're working our way through the funnel. This is kind of my strategy here. So we've talked about how to figure out what you're looking for, figure out who these people are, how to get them talking to you.

那么你已经让他们进入面试阶段了。关于如何提高对一个人的判断信号，识别他们是否合适、是否是你想发 offer 的人，你学到了哪些东西？

So you got them in the interview stage. What are some things you've learned about how to increase your signal on the person and identify if they're a good fit and someone you want to make an offer to?

是的，其中有些是基础性的，研究表明工作样本是预测员工在公司成功的最强指标。但大多数公司仍然花大量时间进行一对一的面对面评估。所以，你知道，我们以在某些岗位上进行长时间的现场体验而闻名。他们会做一个项目，并有机会并肩工作。这给了我们非常强的信号，也给了候选人巨大的信号。我认为大多数公司在现场面试上搞错了方向。他们几乎总是在索取。就像我们在评估、在提取信息，却没有给候选人太多回馈。我非常相信自我选择的力量。真正好的自我选择会带来好的输入和数据。所以我们希望与候选人的体验比大多数公司更双向。所以我们真的会精心设计现场体验，包括他们会见到谁。我们谈过这个。我们非常明确地精心挑选他们会见的面试官。我们做很多工作样本和项目型的工作来获得好信号，但我们也精心安排谁来迎接他们，谁坐在他们旁边吃午餐。我们总是尽量安排在餐点，比如晚餐、午餐或早餐。一切都是精心策划的，以确保他们获得高质量体验并获取数据。同时，我们也从那些我们认为最能与该候选人产生共鸣的人那里获取数据。

Yeah, some of it's a little fundamental, which is research has shown that work samples are the highest predictor of success at a company. But yet most companies are still spending a lot of time doing one-to-one across the table assessments. And so, you know, I think we are famously known for doing long on-sites experiences for some of our roles. So where they do a project and they get to work side-by-side. That gives us a very strong signal. It also gives them, the candidate, tremendous signal. And so I think this is where most companies get it wrong on the on-site. They're almost always buying. This is like we are assessing, we're extracting information. We're not giving much back to the candidate. And I'm a big fan of the power of self-selection. And self-selection really good self-selection serves really good inputs and data. And so we want that experience with the candidate to feel more two-way than most. So we really think about crafting that on-site experience through who they might meet. We talked about that. We really clearly handpicking who they might meet for those interviews. We do a lot of work sample and project type of work to give us good signal, but we also really curate who's greeting them. Who's sitting beside them for lunch. Like we always try to put it around a meal, a dinner, or lunch, or a breakfast. And everything is really curated to make that as high quality experience for them and get them the data. But we also get data from people that we feel like are the most going to connect with that person.

谁负责主导这种体验？是招聘人员还是招聘经理？

Who runs point on this sort of experience? Is it a recruiter or is it the hiring manager?

我认为主要是招聘人员作为四分卫，但他们调动了很多杠杆。招聘经理可能对那些人最有洞察力。我们的招聘协调员非常出色，他们也和我们一起做了很多接待工作。所以我们的招聘协调员当然会做一些日程安排，但他们可能更多是在做这种候选人引导。想象一下，候选人要和我们待一两天，有很多移动的部分，帮助他们从做项目的工作站转移到午餐，再回来，帮助他们设置好环境。所以有很多人参与。我们要求我们的四分卫，也就是招聘人员，来担任四分卫，但很多洞察来自招聘经理，执行也依赖协调员。

I would say I think it's the recruiter primarily as the quarterback, but they're pulling lots of levers. And so the hiring manager is probably going to have the most insight into some of those people. Our recruiting coordinators are tremendous and I think they do a lot of this hosting with us as well. And so our recruiting coordinators of course do some scheduling, but they're probably doing more of this candidate shepherding. So imagine a candidate was with us for a day or two, there's lots of moving pieces and helping them move from a workstation where they might be doing a project into lunch, back to that, helping them get their environment set up. So there's a lot of people in play. We ask our quarterback, our recruiter, to be the quarterback, but a lot of the insights come from hiring managers and execution with the coordinator, too.

有趣的是，这种世界观——我们面对的每个人都非常特别、非常稀有，是这个职位的最佳人选——会如何改变整个体验和流程。很明显，这会渗透到对旅程中每个接触点的深入思考，而不是典型的流程。

It's interesting just how much of the experience and process changes with this worldview of the every person we are talking to is very special and they're very rare and these are the best for this role. And so it's clear how much of it trickles down into thinking deeply about every touchpoint along the journey versus the typical journey.

想象一下，你有一个团队和员工基础，他们非常理解这一点，因为他们经历过。所以你会越过公司的那个临界点，他们有过那种体验。所以他们认可、承认，现在他们成为其中的一部分。多有趣啊，对吧？他们有过很棒的体验，现在他们可以帮助为下一批人提供这种体验。所以一旦你越过最初的那个坎，你就创造了这种飞轮机会。

And imagine that you have a team and employee base that understands that well, they went through it. So you get over this tipping point moment with the company where they had that experience. So they recognize, acknowledge and now they're part of it. How fun is that, right? They had a great experience, now they get to help deliver that for this next batch of people. So you kind of create this flywheel opportunity once you get over that initial hump.

我刚刚想起来，实际上我有一个朋友申请了 Crossover 的工作，他说这是他经历过的最好的候选人体验。

I just remembered actually, I had a friend applying for a job at Crossover and he said it was the best candidate experience he's ever had.

太棒了。

That's amazing.

我记得那个。

Remembered that.

所以按定义，我们考虑过对真正优秀的人进行大量筛选。不是所有人都适合我们，无论是他们的选择还是我们的选择。但每个人都可以作为净推荐者离开。而且再次，按定义，他们是最好的一批人。这些推荐者的分量更重，因为他们有影响力、很优秀、众所周知。所以他们可能永远不会回到我们这里，但他们可能会告诉某人，那个人现在告诉他的听众，或者他们可能会告诉你，然后你在烧烤时提到某事，现在这就变成了一个浪潮，你开始建立一个更强的磁铁，如果你做得好，这种激活就会变得不那么困难。

And so by definition, we thought about doing a lot of scoping of really great people. Not all of them are going to be a fit for us by their choice or ours. But every one of them can walk away as a net promoter. And by again, by definition, they're some of the best. Those promoters weigh more and count more than others because they're influential, they're great, they're known to be good. And so they may never come back to us, but they might tell you who now tells his audience or they might tell you who then you mention something at a barbecue and like now it becomes this groundswell and you start to build a little stronger magnet and that activation becomes a little bit less hard if you do that well.

嗯，绝对。关于工作试用部分，我看过 Michael Terrell 的一个采访，他谈到他们试图取消它，因为这显然增加了很大负担，有些人不愿意做这些事情，他说这完全毁掉了他们的信号，他们不得不把它带回来。

Mhm, absolutely. The work trial piece, I saw an interview with Michael Terrell talking about this and he said how they tried to get rid of it because it obviously adds a lot of load and some people don't want to be doing these things and he said that it just totally tanked their signal and they had to bring it back.

是的，这是一个巨大的时间投入，你可以想象。但如果人才是你最重要的事情，那么你知道，这是一个很好的时间投资。你知道，我们每个人在公司招聘中都有角色要扮演。不是每个人都适合做工作试用工作，但有些人适合。有些人可以做午餐，有些人可以做迎接。所以有很多不同的方式让人们发挥作用。但是，当我们进行那个实验时，你知道，因为它相当昂贵，对候选人来说也是一个很大的要求。我们真的很难对自己的决定有信心。再次，这是一个建立信心的功能。所以我们很高兴把它带回来。

Yeah, it's a huge commitment, you can imagine, of time. But if talent is your number one thing, then you know, that is a good investment of time to do it. You know, we all have a role to play in recruiting at the company. Not everyone is like carved out or you know, best to do work trial work, but like some are. Some can do the lunch. Some can do the greet. So there's like lots of different ways that people can play a role. But yeah, when we ran that experiment, you know, because it is quite expensive. It is also a big ask of candidates. We really struggled to have confidence in our decision. Again, this is a confidence building function. And so we are excited to bring it back.

所以这里的好教训是，如果你不做这个，你就缺少重要的信号。

So good learning there is it's like if you are not doing this, you're lacking significant signal.

可能吧。是的，我想是这样。你知道，我认为在这个行业里没有很多最大值或绝对的东西。但我认为对很多公司来说，很难想出比并肩做实际工作更好的方式来获得这些信号。显然，在这种情况下，其中一些是技术信号，但想象一下，在一段时间内你获得的核心价值观、协作和其他东西，其他信号，可能比具体的技术技能更重要。

Possibly. Yeah, I think so. You know, and I think there I don't think there's a lot of maximums or absolutes in this business. But I think for a lot of companies, it's hard to think of a better way than doing side-by-side real work to get those signals. Obviously, some of it in this case is like a technical signal, but imagine the amount of core values and collaboration and other things you get, other signals you get over a stretch of time that can be arguably more important than the specific technical skill.

那对于产品经理，或者我不知道，市场或运营人员，你们怎么做？有类似的东西吗？

What do you do for like PMs or like I don't know, go to market or ops people? Is there something like that?

是的，我们有一个跨部门的版本。市场团队会做一个挑战，他们一起解决一个问题，比如一个棘手的客户之类的。这通常是与招聘经理一对一的。产品团队也一起做类似的项目。

Yeah, we have a version of this across. And so the go-to-market team does like a challenge where there's a problem they work through like a challenge together, like a challenging customer and things like that. And that's like often one-to-one with the hiring manager. Product does a similar project type together as well.

所以我们有一些版本，我觉得这些版本与职能紧密相关，但也与角色等因素相关。我们尽量保持统一，因为这些职能差异很大。

So we have versions of that that I feel like are tightly tied to the function, but also the role and things like that as well. So we try to be uniform across this because these functions are very different.

关于工作试用的一个经典批评是，你在为公司工作，就好像我会免费为你解决问题一样。

One of the classic criticisms with the work trial is you're doing work for the company and it's like I would just solve problems for you for free.

是的。

Yeah.

他们处理问题的速度如何，比如工程或产品经理？

What's the velocity on the problems they tackle, say engineering or PM?

是的，他们可以从一组问题中选择。所以我们觉得他们有一定的方向和自主权。我们也非常愿意根据他们的情况、可用性和时间进行适当调整，在某种程度上。所以我们尽量灵活和理解。而且，你知道，我们有时也会用周六。所以我们理解在传统工作周中抽出时间可能很难，我们完全理解。这是一个很大的要求，一个很大的承诺。我们认为值得，但我们也愿意在他们方便的时候安排。所以这里存在一个矛盾，大量的时间和精力可能让人感觉缓慢。但当他们准备好时，我们很快。对吧？我们弥补那段时间。所以如果你和我进行初步筛选，你说‘好的，我两周后能谈’，我会说‘打开你的日历’。我有他们的日历。太好了，你一个小时后就能和他们谈。对吧？所以一旦他们准备好，你就行动；你必须抓住那个时机。你不能给他们留下犹豫的空间。所以当我们行动时，我们行动，但可能需要很多时间才能到达那个时刻。

Yeah, there's a set of problems they can choose from. So we feel like they have some direction and discretion. We also are very open to right-sizing it for them based on where they are and their availability and time too, to a certain extent. So we try to be flexible and understanding around that. And we also, you know, we'll sometimes use Saturdays too. So we understand it can be hard to take away time on a traditional work week, and so we totally get it. It's a big ask, a big commitment. We think it's worth it, but we're also willing to schedule that when that works for them. So there's this conflict around a lot of time and effort that could feel slow. But when they're ready to go, we are fast. Right? We make up that time. So if you and I were having an initial screen and you're like, 'Yeah, I'll be able to talk in two weeks,' I'm like, 'Open up your calendar.' I have their calendar. Great, you're going to talk to them in an hour. Right? So you move once they're ready to go; you got to capitalize on that. You can't create openings for them to have second guessing. So when we go, we go, but it might take a lot of time to get up to that moment.

把我们自己进一步向下移动漏斗，你决定给这个人发 offer 的时刻是什么？你有什么特别关注的点，还是过程就像招聘委员会会议或其他什么？

Moving ourselves further down the funnel, what's the moment when you decide we're going to make this person an offer? Is there something that you look for specifically, or just what's the process like a hiring committee meeting or something else?

是的，我们作为团队尽快进行复盘。每个职能的招聘流程略有不同，但我们没有招聘委员会；由招聘经理主导。他们从团队获得大量输入。你记得招聘经理的角色：这不是民主。招聘经理负责让团队提供正确的输入，以做出最佳决策，雇佣或不雇佣。所以我们试图以这种方式构建。确保我们获得真正好的信号。我们试图快速行动。所以复盘通常在当天，如果不是第二天。然后那个决定交给创始人批准。

Yeah, we debrief as immediately as possible as a team. Each function has a little bit of a different hiring process of what that looks like, but we don't have hiring committees; it is hiring manager led. They get lots of input from the team. And you remember the role of the hiring manager: it's not a democracy. The hiring manager is holding that group accountable for helping them get the right inputs to make the best decision, hire or no hire. So we try to frame it in that way. Make sure we get really good signal on it. And we try to move really quickly. So debriefings are typically same day if not next day. And then that decision goes to the founders for stamping.

太棒了。好的。然后你到了 offer 阶段。这里有很多东西，但一个是现在有很多巨额 offer。假设你给这些前 50 名中的一个人发了 offer，他们说‘好的，但我还收到了 Anthropic 的巨额 offer，天文数字。’你怎么处理？而且那是不是超级令人沮丧，还是说‘哦哇，更多信号表明这个人很了不起。’

Awesome. Okay. Then you get to the offer stage. There's a bunch of stuff here, but one is just there are many massive offers happening these days. Say you made an offer to one of these top 50 people and they're like, 'Okay, but I also got this offer from Anthropic for a bazillion dollars.' How do you handle that? And also just is that like super frustrating or is it like, 'Oh wow, more signal this person is incredible.'

是的，我认为可以两者兼有。两者都有空间。我认为目标不是在最后时刻推销。我们一直在推销。所以，如果你考虑招聘的艺术，招聘的艺术是前期非常清楚这个人的动机。以及他们可能为什么跳槽，为了什么。然后确保整个体验都击中这些点。所以结束是高潮，而不是开始。对吧？感觉几乎是自然的结果。就像‘哦，这几乎是下一个理所当然的步骤。是的，这是我们谈了很多的 offer。’所以我们不是开始计时或开始关于成交的对话。我认为我们试图回到那些动机，所以我们可能考虑如何区分内在的规模、角色、团队或你与之共事的人。我们试图专注于内在的东西，而不是外在的东西，当你收到像 MBA 级别的 offer 和薪水，有时甚至更大时，这很难做到。但我们真的试图专注于那些想在这里的人。而且通常当人们考虑他们的求职和下一步时，他们可能从一系列事情开始，我们可能在这个过程中帮助他们发现其他事情。我们可能最终发现实际上这不合适，那也没关系，我们觉得离开也很好。但通常是通过那段旅程帮助他们发现也许这里才是正确的地方。

Yeah, I think it can be both. There's room for both. I think the goal is to not be selling at the close. We're trying to sell throughout. And so, if you think about the craft of recruiting, the craft of recruiting is up front getting really clear on this person's motivations. And what might be why they might make a move and for what. And then making sure that that entire experience hits to those pieces. So the end is a culmination, not a start. Right? It feels like almost a natural outcome of it. Where it's just like, 'Oh, this is almost like a sumptive next step. Yeah, and here's the offer that we talked about a lot.' So we versus like starting the clock or starting the conversation on a close. I think we try to get back to those motivations, so we might think about how we would differentiate against intrinsic size-wise or the role or the team or the people you work with. We try to focus on the intrinsic things, not the extrinsic things, which is very hard to do when you're getting MBA players like offers and salaries and sometimes great bigger than that. But we really try to focus on people who want to be here. And often when people are thinking about their job search and what might be next, they maybe start with a set of things and we maybe help them discover other things along the way. And we might discover at the end that actually this is not the right fit and that's okay and we feel good about walking away from that. But often it's about helping them discover that actually maybe this is the right place through that journey.

人们多久会接受一份薪酬不是最高的工作？这是常见还是罕见？

How often do people take a job that doesn't have the highest comp? Like is that common or is that rare?

是的，我认为你试图减轻薪酬作为人们来或不来的原因。而且通常这意味着你不是最高的数字。我认为我们都可能和那些在职业生涯某个阶段只追求最大数字的人谈过。我认为六个月后你意识到的是，那只是成为你新的薪酬期望水平。但你对共事的人或所做的工作并不兴奋。所以我们试图减轻这一点，但我认为这种情况经常发生。而且也是理所当然的。我们可能失去过人，也许我们是最高的，但他们去了别处，如果那对他们合适，这听起来有点乐观，但我从根本上相信在正确的时间有正确的人适合正确的公司。如果他们最终发现我们不是，那对他们来说是正确决定。作为招聘人员，如果他们不合适，我实际上必须在六个月后重新做那项工作。我不想重新做那项工作。我宁愿现在就弄清楚，并进行更开放的对话。

Yeah, I think you're trying to mitigate comp as a reason people come or don't come. And often that means you're not at the highest number. And I think we've all probably talked with people who maybe at some point in their career chased just the largest number. And I think what you realize six months in is like that just becomes your new level of comp expectation. But you're not excited about the people you work with or the work you're doing. So we try to mitigate that as a piece, but I think that happens a lot. And also rightfully so. We've probably lost people where maybe we were the highest one and they went somewhere else too, and if that's the right fit for them, this is going to sound a little Pollyannic, but I fundamentally believe there are right people for right companies at the right time. And if they discover at the end of that that we're not, that's the right call for them. And as a recruiter, if they're not the right fit, I literally have to redo that work in six months. I don't want to redo that work. I'd rather let's figure that out right now and have that more open conversation.

你应该构建一个智能体，帮助你决定并弄清楚哪家公司现在适合你，因为这听起来真的很有价值。

You should build an agent that helps you decide and figure that out, which company is the right fit for you right now in this time, because that sounds really valuable.

那会非常有趣。

That would be super interesting.

我听说 Anthropic 做了一件我从未听说别人做过的事，类似于特斯拉，他们不让你谈判。

Something that I've heard Anthropic does that I've never heard anyone do, similar to Tesla, they don't let you negotiate.

他们就直接说：“这是报价。”你觉得这是只有 Anthropic 才能做到的事，因为他们就是 Anthropic，还是说这也是你会考虑的事情？

They're just like, "Here's the offer." Do you feel like that's like an only Anthropic thing that they could do because they're just Anthropic and or is that something you think about?

我的意思是，我考虑过。你知道，随着时间的推移，不同公司都这样做过。我尊重的是你做出那个决定，然后坚持到底，有一种承诺感。但每家公司都不一样，我觉得这种方法……我尊重它，但我会考虑，它可能不适合我们。

I mean, I've thought about it. I see, you know, over time different companies have done that. And I think what I respect about it is like you make that call. And you kind of stick with it and there's a commitment to it. But every company's different and I think the approach is so. I respect it, but I think about it, but it may not be right for us.

从候选人的角度来看，人们在拿到报价时会犯哪些错误，反而搬起石头砸自己的脚？

From the candidate's perspective, what are some mistakes that people make when they get an offer that kind of shoot themselves in the foot?

我给候选人的一般建议是，当你考虑报价并进行谈判时，它必须符合一条逻辑线，对吧？所以，如果你要求某一部分薪酬或其他部分，它的依据是什么？比如，请向我解释一下背后的逻辑。我认为这能让对方容易理解，也方便他们向其他决策者传达。所以我看到有些候选人在这一点上有点混乱，之前是这样，现在又是那样，有点像附加式的东西；而另一种候选人则明确表示：“这四件事对我来说很重要。”并且从一开始就尽可能清晰、一致。不是所有事情一开始就能确定。这样会很有逻辑，公司也容易参与其中。

The general advice I give to candidates is when you think about your offer and if you're negotiating, it has to just fit a line of logic. Right? And so, if you are asking for a certain piece of compensation or certain other piece of it, like what is it rooted in? How, like walk me through the logic behind it. And I think that makes it easy for that person to understand, but also easy for them to communicate that forward to maybe a different decision maker as well. So I see candidates who maybe a little bit all over the place on that, where earlier it was this and now it's this and it's kind of the add-on type of thing, versus a candidate who's coming in of like, "Here's the four things that are important to me." and being clear and consistent with it as much as from the outset as you can. Not all things can be there at the outset. That makes it very logical and easy for the company to kind of engage with that.

而不是随便找借口要求更多收入。

Versus just finding random excuses for more income.

没错。你知道，我认为公司通常知道我们不是他们的首选，对吧？所以，我们是在努力赢得人心和思想。我们不是想用钱收买。

Correct. And you know, I think what a company generally knows is like we're not their top choice. Right? And so, we're trying to win hearts and minds here. And we're not trying to buy that out.

这些薪酬方案现在有多让人震惊？我想你已经见过很多了。

How just like mind-blowing are these comps these days? I imagine you've seen so many.

是的。我认为这都是真的，而且更糟，或者更高。我认为我们很多 AI 公司面临的一个开放问题是：这接下来会怎么发展？这怎么结束？没人知道。但确实感觉最重要的衡量单位是最固定、最有限的，那就是时间。这是一场与时间的赛跑，去获得模型、人才，你知道，那是最重要、最宝贵的东西。显然，对一些公司来说，有更多的钱和其他东西，但在这个市场里，时间是我们最固定、最重要的资产。

Yeah. I think it's all true and worse, or higher. I think the open question a lot of us at AI companies are like how does this go from here? Like how does this end? Nobody knows. But it does feel like the unit of measure that matters the most is the most fixed and finite, which is time. It is a race against the clock to get the model, the talent, you know, and that is the thing that matters the most and is the most precious. Clearly for some companies there's more money and there's more other things, but time is our most fixed and important asset right here in this market.

回到 AI 研究员的趋势，太疯狂了，这些人以前只是在旁边构建这些 AI 模型、机器学习模型，对任何人来说都不太令人兴奋，现在他们却成了最抢手的人才。

Just coming back to the AI researcher trend, it's crazy how these people used to be just like off on the side building these AI models ML models not that exciting to anybody and now they're like the most in demand.

我记得我帮助在 Facebook 建立了研究团队，当时他们甚至不怎么招博士，你知道，高级学位也很少。你知道，那是 2010 年左右。我记得遇到了一群学者，他们对工作永远无法走出学术殿堂感到越来越沮丧。所以，我为这群人能有这样的时刻感到非常兴奋。你知道，他们可以说是几十年来技术创新的基础。他们正在迎来自己的高光时刻，这是当之无愧的。

And I remember I helped build out the research group at Facebook before they had they just didn't hire PhDs even, you know, advanced degrees really much at all. And you know, this is 2010 or something. And I remember meeting just this set of academics really, who were growing this growing frustration of their work not ever making it outside of the halls of academia. And so, I'd like to very excited for that population to have like this moment. You know, they've been arguably the underpinning of technical innovation for decades. And they're having their moment. And well deserved.

沿着这个思路，来结束这个漏斗，我们称之为“快乐漏斗”而不是“厄运漏斗”吧。

Kind of along those lines to close out this the funnel of let's call it the funnel of joy instead of the funnel of doom.

是的，我喜欢这个说法。

Yeah, love it.

我从你的一位候选人那里听到，我得到这样一句引述：你和你的团队在促成候选人接受报价方面的能力非常出色。你们做了哪些事情来帮助那些犹豫不决的人下定决心？

I heard from one of your candidates, here's the quote that I got, that you and your team's ability to close and convert candidates with offers to accept is extraordinary. What are some things you do that help get someone over the line that are kind of on the fence?

是的，所以我认为有几件事。第一，我快速再提一下，那就是促成交易贯穿整个流程。比如他们会见谁、动机是什么，我们一直在消除障碍。这是其一。第二，促成交易是团队运动。所以，当我们有一个候选人，尤其是高知名度、高水平的，通常每天都会有围绕该候选人的站会，讨论我们如何让他们答应。可能只有 10 分钟，但重要的不是时间长短，而是每天围绕我们共同做的事情集中精力。这可能包括招聘经理、招聘人员，也可能包括以前的同事。你知道，有很多人会影响这一点，我们努力非常用心地确保那个人感到被关心、有归属感，并且愿意来这里，同时保持对事情的掌控。第三，我认为我们努力让过程非常个性化。就在这周，你知道，两天前我刚刚看到，我们也努力在内部分享这些故事。因为这是建立招聘文化的方式。我们把这些故事分享回公司。但有人分享说，我们在纽约处理一个候选人，通过了解他们，我们得知他们上过表演艺术高中，是受过古典训练的小提琴手。我们非常喜欢弦乐器。所以这个人，我在纽约找到了一家专业乐器店，买了这种独特的土耳其吉他，几乎像小提琴吉他的东西。他们见面吃晚餐时，候选人拿到了报价，他们赠送了那份礼物。所以那可能就几百美元，对吧？不是很多钱。特别是相对于报价的规模和我们认为这个人将产生的影响来说。但正是这种体贴、感人的独特性和个人时刻，我认为很突出。我认为当候选人想到最好的候选人体验时，他们常常会觉得：哇，这感觉像是为我量身定做的。这对我来说很独特。

Yeah, so I think there's a couple things there. One, I'll just re-mention quickly, which is that the closing is happening throughout the process. In terms of like who they're meeting and motivations and like we're removing objections along the way. So that's one. I think the second is closing is a team sport. And so, when we have a candidate, particularly like a high-profile, high-caliber, there are often daily stand-ups around that candidate about what we're doing to get them to yes. And that might be 10 minutes, but it's not the amount of time, it is like focused energy every day around what we are collectively doing. And so that could be the hiring manager, recruiter, but also could be former peers. You know, there's like lots of people who influence that, and we try to just be very intentional about making sure that person feels cared for and belong and coming here and like staying on top of things. The third thing I think is we just try to make it very personal. And so, just this week, you know, 2 days ago I just saw and we try to share these stories internally, too. Because this is how builds the culture of recruiting. We kind of share these stories back to the company. But someone was sharing we were working on a candidate in New York and we learned that through getting to know them that they went to a performing arts high school and were a classically trained violinist. And we were just kind of very into like stringed instruments. So this person I found this like specialty instrument store in New York City and bought this like kind of unique Turkish guitar almost almost violin guitar thing. And they were meeting for like a dinner where they got the offer and they presented that gift to them. And so it was a couple hundred dollars maybe, right? Not a lot of money. Particularly relative to like the size of offer and the size of impact that we thought that you know that someone's going to have. But it's like the thoughtfulness and the touching uniqueness of it and the personal moment of that that I think stands out. And I think when a candidate thinks about having the best candidate experience, often they feel like wow, this felt like tailored to me. This felt unique to me.

我知道每个候选人还会创建一个 Slack 频道。

I know there's also a Slack channel that gets created per for each candidate.

每个候选人。是的，所以我认为当你提到站会时，有时那也是策略和更新，所以同样的动员效果在最后阶段也不例外，每个候选人都有自己的频道。

Every candidate. Yeah, so I think when you talk about the stand-up, sometimes that's also strategy and updates and like and so there's the same rallying effect to activate is no different at that at that close and each candidate has their own channel.

这么多内容都围绕着对每位候选人的用心，而不是把它当作漏斗，而是把这个人当作基本单元。在整个过程中，我们能做些什么让他们感到兴奋，并看看是否合适？

Just so much of this just keeps going back to intentionality around every specific candidate and not treating it like the funnel, but just this is the atomic unit, this person. What can we do throughout the entire process to make them get excited and see if it's a fit?

当你在“厄运漏斗”中大规模操作时，这很难做到。所以当你为每个职位考虑一百个候选人时，这就不具备可扩展性。但当你把范围缩小到一小部分人，你一直在和他们建立基础，那么现在人们通过这些步骤的速度更快，而且人数更少。所以，你整体上花在漏斗上的时间，只是把它转移到了不同的地方。

Which is hard to do when you're doing at scale at the funnel of doom. So when you are thinking about a hundred candidates for every role then this is not that does not scale. But when you're narrowing that down to a small percentage of people that you've been kind of laying groundwork with over time, it come because it because now people are moving faster through those steps and it's a smaller number of people. So, the time that you're taking, you know, holistically for that funnel, you're just displacing putting it in different places.

这太有趣了，而且是一种非常不同的方法。我从未听说过有人这样招聘。

It's so interesting and it's such a different approach. I've never heard of anyone hiring this way.

是的，我们在 Growth by Design 时就有这样的论点，我们认为有另一种方法可以做到这一点。我们长期以来看到所有这些公司，与实验室合作，所有这些都让我们觉得：“哇，这些公司正处于技术革命的最前沿，可能是我们几千年来看过的最激动人心的，但他们却在用网页浏览器的方式招聘。”我们想：“如果一家公司愿意投入这样的时间和精力作为集体力量，他们在人才方面真的可以拥有不公平的优势。”当你长期观察公司时，无论它们成为标志性的品牌还是我们不再认识的名字，往往不是第一个公司、最快进入市场或第一个想法，而是执行。而执行归结为在正确的时间拥有正确的人才。当公司意识到这一点时，他们会说：“哦，这是最重要的事情，这就是我们要采取的方法。”所以当我们遇到 Cursor 时，我们想：“这会很有趣。”

Yeah, and we had this like thesis when I was at Growth by Design, you know, around like there's a we think there's this different way to do this. We'd seen all these companies over time and work with labs and all these things were like, "Wow, like these companies are literally at the cutting edge of a technical revolution here. Probably the most exciting one we've seen in millennia and they were recruiting in a web browser way. And we're like, "If a company like had this willingness to commit this time and effort as this collective force, they could really have an unfair advantage when it comes to talent." And when you think about companies over time, whether they become this iconic logo or one that we know we no longer recognize, it often isn't the first company, the fastest to market, the first idea. It's actually execution. And execution comes down to having the right talent at the right time. And when companies figure that out, they're like, "Ooh, this is the most important thing and this is how we're going to approach it." And so, when we met Cursor, we're like, "This could be fun."

Cursor 实际上正是你所描述的一个很好的例子，因为感觉在 Cursor 的整个历史中，总是像：“他们怎么生存？有这些模型公司在构建这些东西，IDE 就像人们正在远离 IDE，而看着 Cursor 执行并领先于每一次转变真是令人难以置信。每当人们怀疑这里有机会时，它就会不断增长并表现出色。”

Cursor is actually such a great example of exactly what you're describing because it feels like throughout the entire history of Cursor, it was always just like, "How are they going to survive? There's these model companies building these things, the IDEs like like people are moving away from IDEs and it's been incredible to watch Cursor execute and get ahead of each of these shifts. Whenever people doubt that there's an opportunity here, it just keeps growing and killing it.

我的意思是，不久前它还只是 Tab 自动补全，你知道，现在我们已经进入了完全云端的智能体，只是……但记住时间跨度就像一次。你知道，它是……

I mean, it's not too long ago it was like tab auto complete, you know, on it and like now we're in the fully cloud agents and it's just um But just remember the time span is like once. You know, it's

这种浓缩的本质真是疯狂。

the condensed nature of this is just wild.

我一度来到办公室，得到了一个 Tab 按钮，现在它甚至都不再是个东西了。

I came to the office at one point, and I got a tab button, and now it's just like no longer even a thing.

是的。现在它只是可爱。是的，现在它只是放在架子上。是的。

Yeah. Now it's just cute. Yeah, now it's just on the shelf. Yeah.

而且说说看。你的一位同事想让我问你，和一支真正相信招聘是最重要事情的团队一起工作是什么感觉？

And just talk. Something that one of your colleagues wanted me to ask you is just what it what is it like to work with an exact team who truly believes recruiting is the most important thing?

这是一份礼物，有时也令人难以置信地沮丧。礼物部分就像想象他们有多在乎，比如试图说服创始人去进行对话或做任何招聘相关的事情，在这里都不是问题。我们曾与一些公司合作，你知道，你试图把他们拉进来。所以这是一份真正的礼物。挑战在于他们就在其中，你知道，他们理解。Cursor 团队自己雇了前 80 个人，大约 80 人。他们知道有多难，他们知道怎么做。他们知道有多难，这很好，但同时也他们热爱它，他们投入其中，他们想去做。所以关于谁拥有什么部分，不能有自我，这是全员参与。所以有时在谁在做什么事情上可能会混乱，你会在事后发现一些已经发生的事情，但就像我不知道，我每天都愿意接受这个。这是极其正面的，但你知道，总有这样一个优势的平衡点。

It's a gift. And at times incredibly frustrating. So the gift part of it is like imagine that uh how much they care like trying to convince a founder to go have a conversation or to do anything recruiting like that is not a problem here. And like we've you know uh worked with companies who you know where you're like you're trying to like pull them in to things. Um so it's a it's a true gift. The the you know the challenge is like they're in your Like they're in it, you know, like they understand it. Like the the cursor team hired their first 80 people roughly 80 people on their own. They know how hard they know how to do it. They know how hard it is, which is great, but also like they love it and they're in it, and they want to do it. And so there can be zero ego about this of who owns you know who has what piece and like it's an all hands on deck. And so sometimes that can be confusing on who's doing things and things that you know you find out about things after the fact that happened like but like it's like I don't know I'll take that every day. That is extremely net positive, but there you know there's always like a a counter balance to uh such an advantage like that.

太有趣了。这就像 CPO 经常因为那个原因感到沮丧，创始人总是在那里，在他们的……

So interesting. That's like CPOs often are frustrated for that reason where the founders are always in there in their

是的，但他们在乎。你知道，我愿意接受这种努力和关心，以及随之而来的代价，任何时候都愿意。

Yeah, but they care. You know, like I will I'll take the I'll take the effort and care and with that with that tax any day.

然后你的一个热门观点是，招聘人员，招聘团队应该是公司内薪酬最高的团队。

And then one of your hot takes is that the recruiter the recruiting team should be the highest paid team within the company.

是的，其中之一。如果不是最重要的，我的意思是，如果你想想他们产生的影响，而且我觉得围绕真正具有战略眼光的招聘人员存在供需危机，因为我们随着时间的推移使招聘变得有些交易化。所以，我认为能够在这个水平、以这种方式和风格运作的招聘人员供应非常少。所以，就像任何其他劳动力市场一样，这是劳动力成本的问题，而且这种人才非常少。所以，我们认为他们具有巨大的影响力。但这确实是一种非常罕见的技能组合。

Yeah, one of them. Yeah, if not the I mean if if you think about the this impact that they're having, um that uh and like the you know, I feel like there's a supply and demand crisis around really strategic recruiters because of the somewhat transactional nature we've made recruiting over time. And so, I just think there's a really small supply of recruiters who can function at this level and at and at this approach and style. And so, like any other labor market, it's a it's a cost of labor thing and there's just very few of it. And so, um we think that they have tremendous impact. Um but it's like a really rare skill set.

呃，我想问你但忘了问的是，我们经常谈论人才密度。这有多少是关于个人本身，而不是你围绕他们组建的团队？

Uh something I wanted to ask you that I forgot to ask is uh we talk a lot about talent density. How much of it is about the person specifically versus the team that you assemble around them?

是的，我觉得公司过度关注的是个人。除非他们是单人团队，否则实际上，如果你想想优秀的领导者和优秀的管理者，他们实际上是很好的拼图构建者。他们考虑建立互补的团队，然后帮助他们脱颖而出。所以，人才密度不是一个单一的部分，除非分子和分母都是 1。你知道，但事实并非如此。通常，这是 1 除以多少人。所以，人才密度实际上是个人和人类的集体性质。但我们经常因为一次只招聘一个人，我认为有时我们过度关注那个特定的 10 倍人才，你知道吗？实际上，我更倾向于考虑团队相对于个人的指数级 10 倍。我不认为你能在一个糟糕的团队中拥有一个 10 倍的人。那根本不存在。你知道，我想，比如在我上一家公司时，我过去认为，如果我们没有一个好的客户，我们就不能成为一个好的客户服务提供商。我们可以得到……那里有一个门槛。

Yeah, I feel like where companies like overly focus is like an individual. And unless they are a team of one, it's actually like the you know, if you think about amazing leadership and amazing managers, they're actually quite great puzzle builders. And they think about building these teams that are complementary uh together and then help them excel. And so, talent density is not a single piece unless like the numerator and denominator are both one. You know, and so, but that's not the case. Often, this is one over how many people. And so, talent density is actually a a collective nature of of individuals and humans. But we often because you are recruiting one human at a time, I think sometimes we get overly focused on that specific 10Xer thing, you know? Um and I actually would think I like to think a little bit more around exponential around 10X of like a a team versus an individual. I don't think you can have a 10X person on a bad team. It just like doesn't exist. You know, I think you know, like I used to think when we were like at my last company, we can't we can't be a great uh client service provider if we don't have a great client if we don't have a great client. We can get There's like just a bar there.

同样，一个优秀的人如果不在一个强大且支持性的团队里，也会受到限制。这对我来说很有道理。好的，我要问你一堆随机问题。这些又是，我觉得人们听到这个会想，我需要 Adam 立刻来帮我们。但他们得不到，因为你有工作。所以，我要趁我们在这里尽量多挖掘一些。当你是早期公司，考虑招聘，建立你的第一个招聘方法时，早期公司和创始人搞砸他们的早期团队和招聘最常见的方式是什么？

And similarly, a person that is excellent is going to be throttled if they're not on a strong and supportive team. That makes sense to me. Okay, I'm going to ask you a bunch of random questions. These are again, I think people are going to be hearing this and be like, I need Adam immediately when we need help. And they're not going to be able to get that because you got a job. So, I'm going to try to extract as much as I can while we're here. When you're an early-stage company, think about hiring, setting up your first hiring approach, what's the most common ways that early-stage companies and founders mess up their early team and hiring?

是的，我认为他们试图做的是这种“银弹”式招聘，即第一个人才主管，他们把两种相互竞争的技能集合并成一个。好的，所以当你作为创始人，准备招聘你的第一个招聘人员时，你可能在招聘上已经落后了。那里有一个需要解决的问题。你在招聘上落后了。所以，也许有 5、10、15 个职位需要填补的债务。但你在这一阶段招聘这个人，也是因为你希望他们建立一个系统。就像我们一样，他们可能会说，“哇，我想建立像 Adam 说的那样的东西。”所以，你试图建立这个，招聘一个也能放入正确部件以帮助扩展的人。而这些是相互竞争的利益。因为一个想进来的人，就像任何新员工一样，他们想证明自己，他们想做出招聘，但他们可能不会建立系统，或者他们可能建立系统，但不会做出任何招聘，然后你就睡不着觉了。所以，他们试图把这两者合并成一个角色，这通常是个错误。因此，我们建议解耦这些事物。这意味着你可能仍然向一个人汇报，但你能在另一方面得到一些帮助吗？我要招聘一个会建立正确系统的人，但我会让他们与一个临时招聘人员或其他什么合作，以取得短期进展，同时他们通过这些他们帮助协调的职位来教会公司如何做这件事，或者反过来。我可能会带一个人来帮助我们建立正确的基础，就像我们在 GBD 做的那样，然后他们可以招聘一个真正高能力的 IC 招聘人员，能够连接和执行。

Yeah, I think the thing they try to do is do this silver bullet hire, which is a first head of talent, and they kind of collapse two competing skill sets into one. Okay, so when you are generally as a founder, when you're ready to hire your first recruiter, you're probably behind on hiring. There's a problem to solve there. You're behind on hiring. So, then maybe there's like a debt of roles to fill, 5, 10, 15. But you also are hiring someone at this stage because you want them to build like a system. Like just like we're like they might be like, "Wow, I want to build something like Adam's talking about." So, you're trying to build this like hire someone who can also put in the right pieces to help scale out. And those are competing interests. Because a person who wants to come in and just like any new hire, they want to prove out, they want to make hires, but they might not put in the system, or they might put in the system, but not make any hires, and now you're not sleeping. And so, they try to collapse this into one role, and generally that's a mistake. And so, we recommend decoupling those things. So, that means you still might report to one person, but can you get some help with the other one? I'm going to hire the person who's going to put in the right system, but I'm going to partner them with a contingent recruiter or something else to make some short-term progress while they teach the company how to do this through these roles that they fill that they're helping orchestrate, or vice versa. I might bring in someone to help us put in the right foundation, which we did at GBD, and then they get to hire like a really high-powered IC recruiter who can connect and execute.

太棒了。这完全有道理。当你寻找第一个招聘人员时，你觉得还有什么重要的方面需要关注？我知道这可能取决于他们会属于这两个类别中的哪一个，但还有其他建议吗？

Amazing. That makes all the sense in the world. When you're looking for that first recruiting hire, is there anything else you think is important to look for? I know it depends on maybe which of these two buckets they're going to be in, but any other advice?

是的，我认为第一点是他们好奇且以业务为中心。他们是团队的早期成员。他们必须非常好奇，理解业务如何运作，以及每个招聘将如何改变业务的斜率。

Yeah, I think number one is that they are curious and business-focused. They're an early member of the team. They got to be really curious and understanding of how the business works and how each of those hires is going to change the slope of the business.

嗯。

Mhm.

所以，你知道，通常这意味着他们有很多这些有趣的，它以多种方式表现出来，好奇的人，但我认为这是我想的第一点。第二点，我认为有时这两点会被颠倒，就是高动力，你知道，一个理解这将是的辛苦和节奏的人，并且愿意接受。这不一定意味着他们必须更年轻，或者这并不意味着什么。只是他们喜欢在这种过载的边缘工作。所以我经常想到我的团队，我们希望水位就在这儿。所以你在呼吸，但你知道，如果你见过任何类型的招聘人员，招聘人员在 90% 到 110% 的能力范围内表现出色，而在那之外就很糟糕。对吧？如果他们只有一半的职位需求负载，他们几乎没用。或者如果他们过度负担，也只是不知所措。但他们在这个肾上腺素激增的忙碌边缘的中间地带非常出色。而你要找的就是那些人。

And so, you know, often that means that they have all these interesting, it shows up in lots of ways, curious people, but I think that's the number one thing I think of. The number two one which I think and I think these sometimes get switched is just like high motor, you know, someone who understands the grind that it will be and the pace that it works and is down for it. And that doesn't have to mean they have to be younger or it doesn't mean anything. It's just that they love working at this edge of overwhelmness. And so I often think about my team is like we want the water level to be like right here. And so you're breathing, but you know, and if you've met any kind of recruiters, recruiters are excellent at 90 to 110% capacity and are terrible outside of that. Right? If they only have half a req load, they kind of are useless. Or if they're way overwhelmed, also just overwhelmed. But they're kind of great at this middle ground of edge of adrenaline rush busy. And you want to find those people.

哦，天哪。那么，沿着这些思路，我从很多人那里听说你的团队有大量的追随者。有很多来自其他公司的人才主管决定加入你的团队成为 IC。关于建立出色的团队，让人们长期为你工作，你学到了哪些东西？

Oh, man. So, along those lines, I've heard from a bunch of people that you just have a huge followership on your team. There's a lot of heads of talent from other companies that decided to join your team to be ICs. What are some things you've learned about building incredible teams, keeping people working for you over the long term?

我学到的一件事是，在每个地方，我的团队看起来都不一样。因为公司对招聘或产品的看法不同。所以，Cursive 的方式需要不同类型的团队。对吧？它需要这种水平的招聘人员，他们理解领导层招聘的运作方式，不会陷入漏斗的数字游戏中。就像他们有这种信心，他们有可以利用的网络。所以，我们谈了很多关于招聘经理和其他人的网络，但经验丰富、优秀的招聘人员也有自己的网络。就像你生活中有几个你信任的招聘人员，你可能会向他们寻求建议，你知道吧？所以，我们也试图收集这些人，因为他们可以在利用他们的网络方面与技术领导者一样有影响力，例如。所以，然后我基本上考虑三个特质，关于我想要加入我团队的人。第一，我想要那些是优秀的人并且在他们的工作中表现出色的人。我不愿意在这方面妥协。我们将在工作日的清醒时间大部分时间在一起。我们都应该自私到想要与优秀的人、优秀的人类一起工作。第二，我寻找那些有怨气、有证明自己的欲望、热爱这门手艺的人。他们有这种内在的动力和动机去追求卓越。这可以以多种方式表现出来，我试图去了解。然后第三件事，我寻找那些把团队置于自己之上的人。所以这显然对我现在建立的团队非常重要。他们可以在很多地方管理招聘。但他们意识到，没有人真正渴望进入中层管理。我们最终都会到那里。但他们确实意识到他们热爱招聘这门手艺，他们喜欢被挑战，他们喜欢学习。他们想与优秀的人一起工作。所以当我向我的网络求助时，我会说，“嘿，Lenny，你知道哪三个人是优秀的人并且是优秀的招聘人员？他们就是有这种自然的驱动力或怨气，他们把团队置于自己之上。”你会说，“啊，你应该和 Janet 谈谈。”你知道，你可以召唤出那些东西。

One thing I learned is at each place my team has looked different. Because the company, how they think about recruiting or the product is different. And so, the Cursive way demanded a different type of team. Right? It demanded this level of recruiter who understands the leadership recruiting motion, who's not going to get caught up in the numbers game of the funnel. Like they have this confidence and they have a network that they can tap into. And so, we talked a lot about hiring managers' other people's networks, but seasoned great recruiters have their own networks, too. Like you have a couple of recruiters in your life that you trust, that you probably would seek advice from, you know? And so, we try to collect those people, too, because they can be as influential in tapping their networks as a technical leader, for example. So, and then I kind of just think about like three attributes of someone who I want on my team. So, one, I want people who are excellent humans and excellent in what they do. And I'm not willing to trade that off. We are going to spend most of our waking hours during the week together. And we should all be selfish enough to want to work with great people, great humans. The second is people who have a chip on their shoulder, something to prove, love the craft. They have this internal drive and motivation to be excellent. And that can show up in lots of ways and I try to get to that. And then the third thing is I look for people who put team over themselves. And so this is really important clearly for the team I built now. They could be running recruiting at lots of places. But what they've realized is that no one really aspires to get to middle management. We kind of end up there. But what they did realize is they love the craft of recruiting and they love to be challenged, they love to learn. They want to work with great people. And so when I would go out to my network and I'm like, "Hey Lenny, who are three people you know that are excellent humans and excellent recruiters? They just have this natural drive or chip on their shoulder and they put team over themselves." You're like, "Ah, you should talk to Janet." You know, you can conjure those things up.

所以我们真的努力在这里组建了这样一支团队，我对我们聚集的这些人感到非常兴奋。

And so we've really tried to build a team of those folks here, and I'm really excited about the people we've collected.

当我说“等等，我想为 Adam 工作，这听起来真的很棒”时，这是个好兆头。

It's a good sign when I'm just like, "Wait, I want to work for Adam. This sounds really great."

我努力保持一种平衡，因为招聘有时是关于激励团队，但它是一个深度运营的职能。你知道，所以我试图找到这种平衡：既能深入细节、保持运营视角、理解并参与其中，有时也能提升视角，帮助描绘更大的图景。

And I try to be this balance of because recruiting is sometimes around inspiring your team, but it's a deeply operational function. You know, and so I've tried to find this balance of where I can be like in the weeds, operational, understand it, be in it with them, but also sometimes lift up and help like paint the bigger picture, too.

太棒了。Adam，我们覆盖了这么多内容，经历了整个漏斗甚至更多。在我们进入非常激动人心的快问快答环节之前，你还有什么想分享的吗？还有什么想留给听众的？有什么想重点强调的要点吗？

Amazing. Adam, we've covered so much ground. We've gone through the whole funnel and more. Before we get to our very exciting lightning round, is there anything else that you wanted to share, anything else you want to leave listeners with, any nugget you want to double down on?

我的意思是，我们没谈到的一件事，我认为正在发生且我看到越来越多的，是接受 offer 后的反悔。所以我认为很多公司在 offer 接受这个“是”之后，往往有一段空白时间。对于更高级别的候选人，通常超过几周。我们考虑在 offer 接受后采取第二步行动。你知道，我们在招聘中是一个“靠边坐”的业务，那里有一个很大的窗口，候选人接受了 offer，我们就像继续下一个。但在 offer 接受和入职之间我们在做什么？这有两个关键部分。一是确保他们真的来。二是有点像预先入职，通过保持联系帮助他们快速上手。所以，我们会和其他已接受 offer 的人一起吃饭。我们试图在他们周围建立社区。我们会给他们寄一台 Cursor 笔记本电脑。你知道，这有点像“你已加入”的先入为主的感觉。我们做这些晚餐，做这些接触点。一是帮助确保交付发生，同时也让他们开始感到兴奋。他们开始直观地意识到未来会是什么样子。

I mean, one thing that we didn't talk about which I think is happening, I'm seeing more of, is renegs on offers. And so I think a lot of companies get to the yes of the offer acceptance and there's often like a gap of time. Uh in the more senior they are often it's, you know, beyond a couple weeks. Uh we think about a second motion happening after offer accept. Which is, you know, where we are a button seat business in recruiting and there's like a big window there where someone has like, ah, they accept the offer and we kind of like go on to the next one. But what are we doing between offer accept and join? And there's two key parts of that. One is like make sure that they show up. The second is like a bit of a pre-boarding and helping them have a fast ramp by staying connected with them. So, we'll do dinners with other people who have accepted. We try to create essentially create community around them. We'll send them a Cursor laptop. You know, kind of feels like a presumptive you've joined kind of way. We do these dinners. We do these like touch points. Um one is help to make sure like that delivery happens, but also to feel like they they start to get excited, too. They start to kind of visually realize what's it going to look like.

哇，经历了整个漏斗真是太残酷了。得到 offer，发出 offer，接受 offer，我们进来了，然后就没有了。哦，天哪。你说这是一个趋势，我想是因为市场太热了，他们得到了更好的 offer，他们没想到的 offer。

Wow, that is so brutal to have gone through that entire funnel. Got the offer, made the offer, accepted the offer, we're in and just no. Oh man. And you're saying this is a trend, I imagine, because just the market is so hot and they're getting better offers, offers that they didn't expect.

正确。

Correct.

是的。呃，我喜欢，我觉得我们没谈的事情还有很多。还有其他什么吗？其他趋势，其他趋势，你注意到的像“哇，这在招聘领域正在改变”的事情？

Yeah. Uh I love I feel like there's this lake of things we didn't talk about. Is there anything else, any other trends, any other trends, things that you noticed of like, wow, this is changing in the hiring landscape?

我想也许另一个趋势是人才工程师的崛起。我不知道你是否见过，你知道，招聘团队中的一个职能，可能是一位前工程师，他正在构建工具之类的东西。呃，我的温和观点，不是激进观点，我的温和观点是每个招聘人员都应该是人才工程师。招聘人员现在触手可及的、他们可以在 Cursor 或其他工具中构建的东西真的很了不起。嗯，在我之前待过的公司，我们常常不得不乞求工程时间为我们构建工具、功能或特性。现在这就在我们手中。就像我们现在在团队中就有这个能力。所以，呃，我希望我的招聘团队未来的状态是感觉他们就是人才工程师。而不是依赖团队中的其他人帮他们构建工具，如果这说得通的话。

I think maybe the other trend I think we see like the rise of the talent engineer. I don't know if you've seen that out there, you know, the kind of the the the function within a recruiting team who is a possibly former engineer who's like building tools and things like that. And uh my warm take, not a hot take, my warm take is like every recruiter should be a talent engineer. Like the things that recruiters now have at their fingertips that they could build in Cursor or other tools is really phenomenal. Um and in earlier companies I was in, we were often beholden to like begging for engineering time to build us tools or functions or features. And now that's like that's in us. Like we have that right now uh in our team. And so uh I want a future state of my recruiting team to feel like they are talent engineers. Um versus you know leaning on someone else on the team to help them like build a tool, if that makes sense.

是的，绝对。我完全同意。这很有趣。有市场推广工程师，就像每个职能都会有自己的工程师版本。

Yeah, absolutely. I completely agree. It's interesting. There's go-to-market engineers like every function is going to have their version of engineer.

是的。

Yeah.

随着时间的推移。工程师，工程师。呃，好的，Adam，这样我们就到了非常激动人心的快问快答环节。我有五个问题要问你。你准备好了吗？

Over time. Engineers engineers. Uh well, Adam, with that we've reached our very exciting lightning round. I've got five questions for you. Are you ready?

是的。是的。

Yeah. Yeah.

好的。你发现自己最常推荐给别人的两三本书是什么？

All right. What are two or three books that you find yourself recommending most other people?

是的，这非常书呆子气。嗯，有两本。有一本是我本科时读的，一直铭记在心。是丹尼尔·戈尔曼的《情商》。你知道，这是情商作为重要部分的兴起。我只是觉得现在情商比以往任何时候都重要，在这个 AI 时代。所以它当时对我来说非常具有变革性，我认为现在也非常重要。呃，另一本我推荐给创始人的是埃拉德·吉尔的《高增长手册》。我只是觉得它是一本你可以直接跳到某一章得到答案的书，而不是需要从头到尾读的线性作品。所以我认为它是针对不同问题的绝佳参考指南。而且你知道，在大多数情况下，建立公司的组成部分是相同的。核心原则即使是在几年前出版的，我仍然认为它们成立。所以我喜欢《高增长手册》。

Yeah, this is super nerdy. Um so there's two. There's one of it's like that like I read in undergrad um that has stuck with me. And it's emotional intelligence by Daniel Goleman. And you know it's kind of the the rise of EQ um as an important piece of it. And I just feel like emotional intelligence right now, more than ever, is so important in this like AI age. And so it was like super transformative to me way back then and I think it's like really important now. Uh and the other one I love for founders is just uh the high-growth handbook by Elad Gil. I just think it's set I'm a big fan of a book where you can just jump to a chapter and get an answer. And it's not this like linear piece you got to work through. And so I think it's such a great reference guide on different problems. And you know for the most part building companies um the components are the same. You know the core principles even when that came out several years ago, I still think hold true. So I like the the high-growth handbook.

呃，Stripe Press 的致敬。呃，《高增长手册》。我想你读过克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊的《规模化用人》。感觉真的很合你的口味。

Uh a Stripe Press uh shout-out. Uh high-growth handbook. I imagine you've read Scaling People by Claire Hughes Johnson. It feels really up your alley.

是的。爱她。

Yeah. Love her.

是的。另一本 Stripe Press。呃，太棒了。我喜欢，是的，Elad 的书仍然有用。就像我不知道多少年后。

Yeah. Another Stripe Press. Uh amazing. I love that yeah, Elad's book is still useful. Like I don't know how many years later.

太棒了。

Amazing.

是的。呃，你最近真正喜欢的电影或电视剧是什么？

Yeah. Uh favorite recent movie or TV show you really enjoyed?

是的，我要说我已经好几年没看过电影了。嗯，我觉得我的生活就像 20 分钟一块。嗯，但我一直在看一部剧《The Pit》。嗯，我来自宾夕法尼亚州西部，所以来自匹兹堡地区，不仅它做得非常好，嗯，而且第二，它让我的生活感觉不那么疯狂。是的。

Yeah, I'm going to I have not seen a movie in years. Um I feel like my life My life is at like 20-minute chunks. Um but I have been watching a series uh The Pit. Um and I'm from Western Pennsylvania, so from like the Pittsburgh area, and not only is that like a it's not only is it extremely well done, um but two, it makes my life feel less frantic. Yeah.

生活一小时，唯一能让我的生活感觉不那么疯狂的是在急诊室待一个小时。嗯，就像他们经历的一切。而且我经常，你知道，试图告诉我的团队关于事情的严重性。我说：“嘿，各位，我们为这家了不起的公司和产品工作，但人们不会因为我们做的决定而每天生死。在《The Pit》里，他们是，你知道吗？所以，这有点像给了我们一个平衡。嗯，然后第三，我认为他们只是捕捉了那个地区的精神，这是我的核心，像宾夕法尼亚州西部的蓝领奋斗者。呃，我只是觉得他们做得很好。所以，我一直在飞机上尽可能看这部剧。”

Living hour It's about the only thing that can make my life feel less frantic is living an hour in an ER. Um and like all they they go through. And I often, you know, try to tell my team around like the gravity of things. I was like, "Hey y'all, like we get to work for this amazing company and product things, but people are not living and dying every day by decisions that we make. In The Pit, they are, you know? So, it's kind of just gives us like leveling part. Um and then third, I think they just like capture the ethos of that region, which is like my core, which is like Western Pennsylvania blue-collar grinder. Uh and I just think they do a really good job of capturing that. So, I've been I've been watching that uh when I can on some airplanes."

我喜欢这个，对大多数人来说那部剧压力很大，对你来说却很平静，因为它比你的生活压力小。

I love that for most people that shows very stressful and for you it's calming because it's less stressful than your life.

只是事物的相对性有帮助。

Just the relative relative nature of things is helpful.

还有，你看过《熊家餐馆》吗？我觉得那会是另一个例子。

And like have you watched The Bear? Cuz I feel like that'd be another example?

嗯，我觉得如果我是芝加哥人，那可能会引起共鸣。不过，我看过。是的。

Yeah, that I think if I was a probably Chicago guy, that would probably resonate. Although, I have seen it. Yeah.

哦，天哪。好的，还有几个问题。除了 Cursor，你最近有没有发现特别喜欢的产品？

Oh, man. Okay, couple few more questions. Do you have a favorite product you've recently discovered that you really love other than Cursor?

嗯，我觉得有一个是最近才发现的。我是 Granola 的超级粉丝。我很早就开始用 Granola，我喜欢他们不断创新。而且产品决策很棒，易于使用。他们对反馈也很重视。如果你给过他们反馈，他们做得非常好。第二个我经常用的是 Whisper，WhisperFlow。用来快速给我的团队发笔记。我在表达想法方面不如它。所以 Whisper 在移动中给团队发笔记非常棒。

Yeah, I think it's still I think one is like semi-recent one isn't. I'm a huge granola fan. I think I was super early on granola, and I love that they continue to innovate. And really just did Yeah, just great product decisions, easy to use. They're great on feedback, too. If you've ever given them feedback, they're phenomenal. The second I've been using a lot is Whisper, WhisperFlow. And just trying to get out quick notes to my team. I am better this than this on turns of like my thoughts. And so Whisper's been amazing on the go to drop notes to my team.

听着，Adam。你可能不知道这个。

Listen to this, Adam. You may not know this.

我不知道。

I don't.

我的新闻通讯订阅者可以免费获得一年 Cursor，还有 Granola 和 WhisperFlow。

Subscribers to my newsletter get a year free of not only Cursor, but also Granola and WhisperFlow

真不知道。

Not know that.

还有 30 个其他很棒的产品，Replit、Google、Lovable 等等，简直失控了。所以，如果你喜欢这些产品中的任何一个，

30 other incredible products, Replit and Google and lovable and it's out of control. So, if you like any of these products,

那根本不是个地方。那只是，嗯，我不知道。

That was not a place at all. That was just yeah, I did not know that.

我们只是把所有最好的产品免费提供一年，包括 Cursor。所以，就这样。ladiesproducthunt.com。

It's just we have all the best products for free for a freaking year, including Cursor. So, there you go. ladiesproducthunt.com.

好的，还有两个问题。你有没有一个经常在生活或工作中想起的人生格言？

Okay, two more questions. Do you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to in work or in life?

嗯，我觉得有三件事我经常想起，也试图灌输给我的孩子们。第一是努力工作。我认为努力工作的价值很难低估。这是我成长过程中体会到的。第二是做好工作。所以，不要把这两者混淆。第三是乐于助人。我认为我真正努力做的一件事，也许是我能帮助建立这个团队的部分原因，就是我一直在努力帮助别人。如果你和任何创始人交谈，我会回复他们的邮件。我会和他们进行 10 分钟的通话。我希望人们来找我寻求帮助和建议，而且是对的。所以现在我开始收获一些回报，比如人们想加入团队工作。所以这三件事是我真正努力遵循的。

Yeah. I think there's like three things that I come back to and I try to instill in my kids, too. So, one is like work hard. I think the value of hard work is hard to understate. And something like I grew up in. Second is like do great work. So, let's not confuse the two. And third is like be helpful. And I think like one thing I've really tried to do and maybe part of the reason I was able to help build this team is I've really just tried to be helpful. And if you talk to founders out there, anyone, I will answer their emails. I will jump on a 10-minute call with them. And I want to think that people come to me for help and advice and like it's the right ones. And so that's just has now like I now getting to reap some of that of people who like want to come to work on the team, but so those three things I've really tried to live by.

这是一套很棒的生活原则。显然它们促成了你的成功。我要全部偷走。这些真的很好。就像一个很好的三脚架，值得专注。

That is an awesome set of principles to live by. Clearly it has contributed to your success. I'm going to steal them all. Those are really good. That's like a good tripod of things to be focused on.

你谈到当爸爸。最后一个问题。人们说你是关于恰到好处的爸爸笑话的重要性的专家。我不会要求你讲笑话，除非你想讲，但更多的是，关于养育孩子你学到了什么？因为我是爸爸，孩子 3 岁。关于养育优秀的孩子，你学到了什么？

You talked about being a dad. Final question. People said you're an expert on the importance of a well-placed dad joke. I'm not going to ask you to do a joke unless you want to, but more so just like what's something you've learned about raising kids cuz I'm a dad, 3-year-old. What's just like a thing you have learned about raising great kids?

这很让人谦卑。你知道，他们会以你意想不到的方式挑战你。他们有时就像你的小镜子。所以这就像一个反馈机制。而且说实话，这是一种快乐。我很幸运有一位了不起的妻子和伴侣，她有时，大多数时候，承担了不公平的重担。但是，是的，这绝对是我最大的快乐。

It's humbling. You know, they will challenge you in ways you don't expect. They are like mini mirrors of you sometimes. So it's like that's a feedback mechanism. And it's like such a joy, honestly. And I'm very lucky to have an amazing wife and partner who at times, most times, takes the unfair, you know, load of it. But yeah, it's probably it's definitely my greatest joy.

这是一个很好的总结。感觉就是这样。有时很有挑战性，但却是最大的快乐。

That's such a good summary. That's exactly how it feels. Very challenging at times, but the greatest joy.

但想想你的职业生涯。当你回顾职业生涯中最愉快的时光，你有点超出自己的能力范围。你被扔进了一个意想不到、你还没准备好的事情中。然后你设法解决了。当时是一系列的起伏，叠加的 S 曲线，但回顾时你会说，“哇，那是我职业生涯的亮点之一。”但你当时真的超出了自己的能力范围。

But just think about your career though. The thing when you look back on your career of your most enjoyable times, you were a little bit over your skis. You were thrown into something unexpected that you weren't ready for. And you like figured it out. And in the moment it was a series of ups and downs, stacking S curves, but you'll look back and I'll be like, "Wow, that was like one of like my career highlights." But you were really over your skis.

Molly Graham 来过播客，也写过几篇通讯客座文章，她有一个概念叫 J 曲线，就是你最好的角色是刚加入时，你直线下降，表现糟糕一段时间，然后回升，那是你最好的经历。

Molly Graham, who's been on the podcast, and did a couple newsletter guest posts, she has this concept she calls the J curve, which is you your best roles are just you join and you go way down and suck at it for a while, and then you come back up, and that's the best experience you've ever had.

Molly 是的，Molly 确实有真知灼见。

Molly is Yeah, Molly has gold out there, for sure.

她太棒了。现在正在写一篇新的客座文章，可能在这个播客发布时已经出来了。

She's so incredible. Working on a new guest post right now, might have come out by the time this comes out.

喜欢。

Love it.

那么，最后两个问题，Adam。你想宣传什么？有什么想让大家了解的？听众怎么能帮到你？

With that, two final questions, Adam. What do you want to plug? Anything you want to point people to? And how can listeners be useful to you?

我认为它们是一回事。我的意思是，我希望人们尝试 Cursor。我认为我们推出的东西非常令人兴奋。我们为此感到自豪。还有一些正在筹备中。我在网上不太活跃。我想我在 LinkedIn 上有一点，但我真的努力让我的工作和团队代表我们所做的。但我总是乐于助人，回到上一点。所以，我真的从帮助别人中获得纯粹的能量和快乐。所以，我知道在某个时候这会以某种方式回报。不期待，但那就是我动力的来源。

I think they're one in the same. I mean, I would love people to try Cursor. I think it's incredibly exciting things that we're coming out with. And we're really proud of it. Some things in the pipeline, too. I'm not super out there online. I think I'm on LinkedIn a little bit, but I really honestly try to like my work and our team speak for what we do. But I'm always down to be helpful, back to the last point. So, I really do get pure energy and joy from helping people. And so, I know at some point that will come back in some kind of way or form. Don't expect it to, but that's just where I get that drive from.

稍微宣传一下 Cursor。不仅 Cursor 的设计和体验很棒，对很多人来说最好的功能是你可以非常轻松地在模型之间切换。所以，与其沉迷于 Codex 或 Claude Code，不如用 Cursor，然后新的 Opus 出来了，新的 GPT 出来了，你可以立即切换并试用，而不是切换产品。

Just to plug Cursor a little bit. Not only is just the design and experience of Cursor awesome, the best feature for a lot of people is you could just switch between models extremely easily. So, instead of getting hooked on Codex or Claude code, use Cursor, and then a new Opus comes out, and you GPT comes out, and you could switch and just play around with it immediately versus switching the product.

是的，曾经模型每三四个月发布一次。现在模型发布间隔缩短到几天，我认识的热爱构建产品的人希望在任何时候使用最好的工具。所以，我们的智能体允许你选择正确的模型。而且我认为对很多公司来说，成本现在也是一个合理的考虑因素。所以，这真的归结为优化，为正确的任务使用正确的模型。所以，这正好落在 Cursor 的最佳位置。

Yeah, there was a world where models were coming out every three or four months. We're down to a number of days between models, and people I know who love to build products want to be working with the best tools at any given time. And so, our agent allows you to choose the right model. And I think for a lot of companies, also cost is a rightful consideration now. And so, it really comes around optimization of using the right model for the right task. And so, that's kind of just landing into Cursor's sweet spot.

是的，你们现在还在 SpaceX 的数据中心上构建最先进的模型，这对 Cursor 来说是一个全新的世界。

Yeah, and you guys are also now just building state-of-the-art models built sitting on SpaceX's data centers like a whole new world for Cursor.

我的意思是，能在世界上最大的数据中心上训练，这解锁了我们的模型。所以，这太棒了。

I mean getting to train on the world's largest data center has just unlocked our models. So, it's been amazing.

活在这个时代真好。

What a time to be alive.

太疯狂了。

That's crazy.

Adam，非常感谢你来到这里。

Adam, thank you so much for being here.

谢谢邀请。

Thanks for having me.

大家再见。

Bye, everyone.

非常感谢您的收听。如果您觉得本期内容有价值，可以在 Apple Podcast、Spotify 或您常用的播客应用上订阅本节目。同时，也请考虑给我们打个评分或留下评论，这真的能帮助其他听众发现这个播客。您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 找到所有过往节目或了解更多关于本节目的信息。我们下期再见。

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